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From: Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
To: <secdir@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org
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Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2021 05:58:22 -0700
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Subject: [netmod] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09
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Reviewer: Alexey Melnikov
Review result: Has Nits

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the
IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the
security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these
comments just like any other last call comments.

This document defines an RPC operation to compare management
datastores that comply with the NMDA architecture.
The Security Considerations talks about a couple of issues specific to
the new operation:
1) sensitivity of the new "compare" operation and how access control rights
to access it should be restricted.
2) performance considerations of running "compare" and
how it can lead to Denial-of-Service, if the number of requests allowed
in any given time interval is not restricted.
I can't think of other security issues raised by this document that are
missing from it.

Nits:

In Section 6:

>   The same request in RESTCONF (using JSON format):
>
>   POST /restconf/operations/ietf-nmda-compare:compare HTTP/1.1
>   Host: example.com
>   Content-Type: application/yang-data+json
>   Accept: application/yang-d

Please insert an empty line after the HTTP request header and before the
following payload, or your example is not syntactically valid.

Also, I don't "application/yang-d" in the list of registered media types on
<https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xhtml>. Did I miss it?

>   { "ietf-nmda-compare:input" {
>      "source" : "ietf-datastores:operational",
>      "target" : "ietf-datastores:intended",
>      "report-origin" : null,
>      "xpath-filter" : "/ietf-interfaces:interfaces"
>      }
>   }
>
>   The same response in RESTCONF (using JSON format):
>
>  HTTP/1.1 200 OK
>  Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2019 20:56:30 GMT
>  Server: example-server
>  Content-Type: application/yang-d

Similar to the above, you need an empty line inserted here.

>  { "ietf-nmda-compare:output" : {
>      "differences" : {
>        "ietf-yang-patch:yang-patch" : {
>          "patch-id" : "interface status",
>          "comment" : "diff between intended (source) and operational",
>          "edit" : [
>            {
>              "edit-id" : "1",
>              "operation" : "replace",
>              "target" : "/ietf-interfaces:interface=eth0/enabled",
>              "value" : {
>                 "ietf-interfaces:interface/enabled" : "false"
>              },
>              "source-value" : {
>                 "ietf-interfaces:interface/enabled" : "true",
>                 "@ietf-interfaces:interface/enabled" : {
>                   "ietf-origin:origin" : "ietf-origin:learned"
>                 }
>               }
>            },
>            {
>              "edit-id" : "2",
>              "operation" : "create",
>              "target" : "/ietf-interfaces:interface=eth0/description",
>              "value" : {
>                 "ietf-interface:interface/description" : "ip interface"
>              }
>            }
>          ]
>        }
>      }
>    }
>  }

Best Regards,
Alexey



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From: "maqiufang (A)" <maqiufang1@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: system configuration sync mechanism
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--_000_d913d5e6abc54436b27ac02119c0aed9huaweicom_--


From nobody Fri Jul  2 05:59:28 2021
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From: Shwetha Bhandari via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2021 05:59:18 -0700
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/LCBY3hbxd2_jJd1Aci22Qye_HKY>
Subject: [netmod] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09
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Reviewer: Shwetha Bhandari
Review result: Has Nits

I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects of
the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be included
in AD reviews during the IESG review.  Document editors and WG chairs should
treat these comments just like any other last call comments.

 Summary:
This is a Standards Track document that defines an RPC operation to compare
management datastores and returns diffs between the datastores as a yang-patch.

While  most access management of the RPC, ensuring availability of the server
by rate limiting are considered I have an open question to authors: where/how
will operational metrics such as rate of requests received, errors, rate
limiting if applied, server resources consumed to process the request etc,
about this new RPC be defined and reported? This is useful information for
server operation where this RPC is enabled.

Nits:
The RESTCONF example content-type is json but it is set to application/yang-d
that is not present in the registry - should it be application/yang-patch+json?




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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
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To: Shwetha Bhandari <shwetha.bhandari@gmail.com>
Cc: ops-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff.all@ietf.org,  Last Call <last-call@ietf.org>, NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09
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On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 5:59 AM Shwetha Bhandari via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Reviewer: Shwetha Bhandari
> Review result: Has Nits
>
> I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's
> ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.
> These
> comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects
> of
> the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be
> included
> in AD reviews during the IESG review.  Document editors and WG chairs
> should
> treat these comments just like any other last call comments.
>
>  Summary:
> This is a Standards Track document that defines an RPC operation to compare
> management datastores and returns diffs between the datastores as a
> yang-patch.
>
> While  most access management of the RPC, ensuring availability of the
> server
> by rate limiting are considered I have an open question to authors:
> where/how
> will operational metrics such as rate of requests received, errors, rate
> limiting if applied, server resources consumed to process the request etc,
> about this new RPC be defined and reported? This is useful information for
> server operation where this RPC is enabled.
>
>

There are no standard YANG objects to monitor the server resources.
This new operation is likely to consume a lot of resources so I understand
your concern.
The actual diff results may depend on implementation choices and impact
resources used.
E.g. comparing 2 datastores that are constantly changing while they are
being compared.

I am not sure what changes to the draft are needed at this time.
A resource monitoring module would be a generalized solution but it does
not belong in this draft.

Nits:
> The RESTCONF example content-type is json but it is set to
> application/yang-d
> that is not present in the registry - should it be
> application/yang-patch+json?
>
>
I think it is supposed to be application/yang-data+json


Andy

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 5:59 AM Shweth=
a Bhandari via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@=
ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex">Reviewer: Shwetha Bhandari<br>
Review result: Has Nits<br>
<br>
I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate&#39;s<=
br>
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.=C2=
=A0 These<br>
comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects =
of<br>
the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be includ=
ed<br>
in AD reviews during the IESG review.=C2=A0 Document editors and WG chairs =
should<br>
treat these comments just like any other last call comments.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0Summary:<br>
This is a Standards Track document that defines an RPC operation to compare=
<br>
management datastores and returns diffs between the datastores as a yang-pa=
tch.<br>
<br>
While=C2=A0 most access management of the RPC, ensuring availability of the=
 server<br>
by rate limiting are considered I have an open question to authors: where/h=
ow<br>
will operational metrics such as rate of requests received, errors, rate<br=
>
limiting if applied, server resources consumed to process the request etc,<=
br>
about this new RPC be defined and reported? This is useful information for<=
br>
server operation where this RPC is enabled.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>There are no standard Y=
ANG objects to monitor the server resources.</div><div>This new operation i=
s likely to consume a lot of resources so I understand your concern.</div><=
div>The actual diff results may depend on implementation choices and impact=
 resources used.</div><div>E.g. comparing 2 datastores that are constantly =
changing while they are being compared.</div><div><br></div><div>I am not s=
ure what changes to the draft are needed at this time.</div><div>A resource=
 monitoring module would be a generalized solution but it does</div><div>no=
t belong in this draft.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex">
Nits:<br>
The RESTCONF example content-type is json but it is set to application/yang=
-d<br>
that is not present in the registry - should it be application/yang-patch+j=
son?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think it is supposed to be applicati=
on/yang-data+json</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div></div></div>

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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism
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[Thanks for removing NETCONF from the CC]

Hi Qiufang,


<snip>
> Right, the loopback interface is a common example but, more generally, =
I think "resource-independent=E2=80=9D configuration might fall into =
exactly two categories:
> =20
>             1) config that is =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D immediately
>                         - ex: interfaces/lo0/unit 0/family [ inet =
inet6 ]
>                         - ex: system/login/password/minimum-length=3D6
>                         - ex: system/ports/console-type=3Dvt100
>                         - ex: system/syslog/archive-size=3D256k;
>                         - ex: =
chassis/cluster/fabric-monitoring/heartbeat-interval=3D1000;
>                         - ex: security/zones/security-zone/junos-host;
>                         - ex: =
security/alg/sip/inactive-media-timeout=3D120;
> =20
>             2) config that is =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D only after =
being referenced by other config (e.g., ACLs)
>                         - ex: applications/ftp/=E2=80=A6
>                         - ex: applications/tftp/...
>                         - ex: applications/smtp/=E2=80=A6
>                         - ex: utm/custom-objects/Adult_Material/...
>                         - ex: utm/custom-objects/Religion/...
>                         - ex: utm/custom-objects/Gambling/=E2=80=A6
> [Qiufang Ma] I don=E2=80=99t quite understand this kind of =
configuration, could you please expand? Do you mean that the predefined =
configurations  for a certain application(e.g., ftp) will not take =
effect until being referenced/enabled?


For the second category, imagine <system> containing some predefined =
objects.  These objects follow the standard data-model allowed by the =
YANG.  Operators could have defined these objects as well but, because =
there may be hundreds of these objects, and the objects are the same for =
everyone, the vendor decides to pre-define them as a convenience for =
their customers.  This way, operators only have to define custom objects =
for what is unique in their environments.    By example, imagine this in =
<system>:

	system-defined-defaults {
		applications {
			application ftp {
				protocol tcp;
				destination-port 21;
			}
			application tftp {
				protocol udp;
				destination-port 69;
			}
			application smtp {
				protocol tcp;
				destination-port 25;
			}
			...
		 }
	}

And this in <running>

		# custom objects
		applications {
			application my-app-1 {
				protocol tcp;
				destination-port 2345;
			}
			application my-app-2 {
				protocol udp;
				destination-port 69;
			}
		 }

		// an ACL policy referencing both sys-defined and custom =
objects
		policy from-zone untrust to-zone untrust {
			policy allow-external-access-to-foobar-app {
				match {
					source-address any;
					destination-address any;
					application [ ftp tftp, =
my-app-1, my-app-2 ];
				}
				then {
					permit;
				}
			}
		}


Note that, <running> by itself would not pass validation, due to missing =
leafrefs.  Thankfully, NMDA never says that validation runs on =
<running>.  But once <running> and <system> have been merged, to become =
<intended>, the result does pass validation.


> I am wondering if these configuration will present in the =
<operational> (which contains all the configuration actually used by the =
device) before they=E2=80=99re referenced.

I think that it would depend in the specific server=E2=80=99s behavior, =
regarding if *unused* predefine objects are present in <operational>.  =
Certainly the unused objects would not have to be present in =
<operational>.  If I were implementing the server, the unused objects =
would NOT be present in <operational>.



> It would be good if we could determine if there are any other =
"resource-independent=E2=80=9D configuration categories here.
> [Qiufang Ma] Do you think there exists conditional system =
configuration (if the preceding configurations you mentioned above is =
not)? For example, if SSH is enabled on a device, SSH-related keys are =
automatically generated. Such configurations are generated at the moment =
when a special functionality is enabled.

I=E2=80=99m unsure what you mean in general by "conditional =
configuration=E2=80=9D, but I can speak to your specific example. Though =
I must preface my comments that I imagine there are a number of ways =
servers might go about enabling `sshd`.  What follows is my personal =
view, forged by being around systems for awhile  ;)

In general:

	- `sshd` is NOT enabled by default.
	- `sshd` is enabled via a configuration knob.
	- the SSH host key is dynamically generated the first time =
`sshd` is enabled.
	- the SSH host key itself is in <operational> (not <running>)

This view is consistent with the first paragraph in Section 3 of the =
=E2=80=9Ckeystore=E2=80=9D draft (reproduced below):

	3.  Support for Built-in Keys

	   In some implementations, a server may support built-in keys.  =
Built-
	   in keys MAY be set during the manufacturing process or be =
dynamically
	   generated the first time the server is booted or a particular =
service
	   (e.g., SSH) is enabled.

As a closing thought, this model (which I stated upfront may not be =
universal) would have no presence-in or interaction-with =
<system>=E2=80=A6though, perhaps, there may be some predefined values =
for what key-algorithms and/or key-lengths to use when generating the =
SSH host key...



> As for "resource-dependent=E2=80=9D configuration, I wonder how this =
is supposed to work=E2=80=A6more specifically, I wonder to what extent =
the IETF needs to care how if works (perhaps the same could be said for =
"resource-independent=E2=80=9D configuration too).  For instance, in =
JUNOS, there exists a config-template that is automatically applied to =
any user-defined interface, such as:
> =20
>     junos-default-profile {
>         interfaces {
>             "$junos-interface-ifd-name" {
>                 unit "$junos-underlying-interface-unit" {
>                     family inet;
>                     family inet6;
>                 }
>             }
>         }
>     }
>=20
> Notably, RFC 8342 mentions templates as something that might be =
expanded when converting <running> to <intended>.  Actually, knowing =
that it is <intended> that is subject to validation, it seems that much =
(if not all) of <system> should be consumed when converting <running> to =
<intended> - agreed?=20
> [Qiufang Ma] Do you mean that  <intended> should include the system =
configuration which is generated due to the expansion of templates?  I =
notice that RFC8342 says in sec.4.1
> =E2=80=9COne of the observations:
> Some implementations have proprietary mechanisms that allow
> clients to define configuration templates in <running>.  These
> templates are expanded automatically by the system, and the
> resulting configuration is applied internally.=E2=80=9D
> So I am wondering whether the system-predefined config-template would =
be present in the <running> and updating <intended>  through performed =
template-expansion.
> My understanding is that if the config-template is configured in =
<running>, the expanded configuration in the <intended> should still be =
the client configuration.
> If the template is preconfigured by the system, the configuration =
generated through performed template-expansion should be only present in =
the <operational> if not explicitly re-configured in <running> by the =
client.

Firstly, I again have to preface my comment that there are likely many =
ways that templating mechanisms can be defined.    But, in general, once =
a templating mechanism has been defined, then it stands to reason that =
templates could be defined either in <running> (by operators) or in =
<system> (by the manufacturer).  In one implementation I=E2=80=99m =
familiar with, the templates are objects that are =
referenced/parameterized by other parts of the configuration.  (Same as =
with the predefined objects discussion above.) =20

To answer your questions:

1) Yes, it is my opinion that *activated* templates in <system> will be =
expanded and present in <intended>.

2) I would never suggest that the system-defined templates are present =
in <running>, though they may be referenced/parameterized by config in =
<running>.

3) if a config-template is configured in <running> (i.e., it is =
operator-defined) then, yes, the expanded configuration in <intended> is =
"client configuration=E2=80=9D (note, "client configuration=E2=80=9D is =
not a formal term).  That said, it seems fair to say that a template =
defined in <system> and then referenced by "client configuration=E2=80=9D =
in <running> is also expanded as "client configuration=E2=80=9D in =
<intended>.

4) I don=E2=80=99t not understand your last sentence, that the expansion =
of <system> templates are only present in <operational>.  Maybe you=E2=80=99=
re saying something subtle, e.g., that servers currently don=E2=80=99t =
support GET on <intended>.  But, in theory, the expansion of <system> =
templates should (IMO) be present in <intended>, so that they may be =
subject to validation.   Of course, all the <intended> configuration =
(whether originating in <running> or <system>) that is successfully =
=E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D will also be present in <operational>.


<big snip>
> I=E2=80=99m beginning to think that:
> =C2=B7         auto-copying into <running> is likely never a good =
idea, because it violates the definition of <running>
> [Qiufang Ma] I am quite aware that different datastores in NMDA =
represents different views of data nodes.  And <running> represents a =
configuration datastore holding the current configuration of the device.
> Should we consider system configuration also be part of current =
configuration of the device? =46rom my perspective, the difference =
between system configuration and  client-configuration lies only in who =
provides it.

<running> holds the current *operator-specified* configuration of the =
device.  System-provided configuration is NOT specified by operators =
(though system-defined objects may be referenced by operator-specified =
config in <running>).   I believe that this arrangement is consistent =
with the definition of <running>.  Agreed?


> =C2=B7         having in <operational> doesn=E2=80=99t make sense, =
since the tweaks wouldn=E2=80=99t go thru <running> --> <intended> =
validation.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m wondering if a model like below would work for everyone - =
thoughts?
> [Qiufang Ma] <intended> represents the configuration after all =
configuration transformations to <running> have been performed, so I =
think it is only coupled to <running>.
> Anyway, the <system> should also interacts with <operational>.  =
Agreed?

I don=E2=80=99t agree that <intended> must only be coupled to <running>. =
 Specifically, I think that it is okay (compatible with NMDA) to define =
a <system> that also impacts <intended>.   This is the only (IMO) sane =
approach, as it enables the combination <running> + <system> to be =
validated.



> =20
> Best Regards,
> Qiufang Ma

Cheers,
Kent // contributor



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, =
0);" class=3D"">[Thanks for removing NETCONF from the CC]</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div>Hi&nbsp;Qiufang,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div>&lt;snip&gt;</div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Right, the loopback =
interface is a common example but, more generally, I think =
"resource-independent=E2=80=9D configuration might fall into exactly two =
categories:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>1) config that is =
=E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D immediately<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>-=
 ex: interfaces/lo0/unit 0/family [ inet inet6 ]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>-=
 ex:&nbsp;<span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">system/login/password/</span>minimum-length=3D6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>-=
 ex: system/ports/console-type=3Dvt100<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>-&nbsp;ex:&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">system/</span>syslog/archive-size=3D256k;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>-=
 ex: chassis/cluster/fabric-monitoring/heartbeat-interval=3D1000;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span"><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">- ex: =
security/zones/security-zone/junos-host;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"apple-tab-span"><span =
style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">- ex: =
security/alg/sip/inactive-media-timeout=3D120;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>2) config that is =
=E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D only after being referenced by other config =
(e.g., ACLs)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>-=
 ex: applications/ftp/=E2=80=A6<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"apple-tab-span"><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">- ex: applications/tftp/...<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span"><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">- ex: applications/smtp/=E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span"><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">- ex: utm/custom-objects/Adult_Material/...<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span"><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">- ex: utm/custom-objects/Religion/...<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span"><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">- ex: utm/custom-objects/Gambling/=E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] I don=E2=80=99t quite understand this kind of =
configuration, could you please expand? Do you mean that the predefined =
configurations&nbsp; for a certain application(e.g., ftp) will not take =
effect until being =
referenced/enabled?</span></i></b></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>For the second category, imagine &lt;system&gt; =
containing some predefined objects. &nbsp;These objects follow the =
standard data-model allowed by the YANG. &nbsp;Operators could have =
defined these objects as well but, because there may be hundreds of =
these objects, and the objects are the same for everyone, the vendor =
decides to pre-define them as a convenience for their customers. =
&nbsp;This way, operators only have to define custom objects for what is =
unique in their environments. &nbsp; &nbsp;By example, imagine this in =
&lt;system&gt;:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>system-defined-defaults {</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>applications {</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">			</span>application ftp =
{</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">				</span>protocol =
tcp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">				=
</span>destination-port 21;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>}</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">			</span>application tftp =
{</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">				</span>protocol =
udp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">				=
</span>destination-port 69;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>}</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">			</span>application smtp =
{</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">				</span>protocol =
tcp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">				=
</span>destination-port 25;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>}</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">			</span>...</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>&nbsp;}</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>}</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div>And this in &lt;running&gt;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span># custom =
objects</div><div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0);" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: =
pre;">		</span>applications {</div><div style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">			=
</span>application&nbsp;my-app-1&nbsp;{</div><div style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">				=
</span>protocol tcp;</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">				=
</span>destination-port 2345;</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">			</span>}</div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">			=
</span>application my-app-2 {</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">				</span>protocol =
udp;</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">		=
		</span>destination-port 69;</div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">			=
</span>}</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, =
0);" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: =
pre;">		</span>&nbsp;}</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>// an ACL policy referencing both sys-defined and custom =
objects</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, =
0);" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
	</span>policy from-zone untrust to-zone untrust {</div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>policy allow-external-access-to-foobar-app {</div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">				=
</span>match {</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">					=
</span>source-address any;</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">					=
</span>destination-address any;</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">					=
</span>application [ ftp tftp, my-app-1, my-app-2 ];</div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">				=
</span>}</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, =
0);" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
			</span>then {</div><div style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">				=
	</span>permit;</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">				=
</span>}</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, =
0);" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
		</span>}</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>}</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""></div><div>Note that, &lt;running&gt; by =
itself would not pass validation, due to missing leafrefs. =
&nbsp;Thankfully, NMDA never says that validation runs on =
&lt;running&gt;. &nbsp;But once &lt;running&gt; and &lt;system&gt; have =
been merged, to become &lt;intended&gt;, the result does pass =
validation.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0);"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I am wondering if these configuration will =
present in the &lt;operational&gt; (which contains all the configuration =
actually used by the device) before they=E2=80=99re =
referenced.</span></i></b></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I think that it would depend =
in the specific server=E2=80=99s behavior, regarding if *unused* =
predefine objects are present in &lt;operational&gt;. &nbsp;Certainly =
the unused objects would not have to be present in &lt;operational&gt;. =
&nbsp;If I were implementing the server, the unused objects would NOT be =
present in &lt;operational&gt;.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">It would be good if we could determine if there =
are any other "resource-independent=E2=80=9D configuration categories =
here.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] Do you think there exists conditional system =
configuration (if the preceding configurations you mentioned above is =
not)? For example, if SSH is enabled on a device, SSH-related keys are =
automatically generated. Such configurations are generated at the moment =
when a special functionality is =
enabled.</span></i></b></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=99m unsure what you mean in =
general by "conditional configuration=E2=80=9D, but I can speak to your =
specific example. Though I must preface my comments that I imagine there =
are a number of ways servers might go about enabling `sshd`. &nbsp;What =
follows is my personal view, forged by being around systems for awhile =
&nbsp;;)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>In general:</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>- `sshd` is NOT enabled by =
default.</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>- `sshd` is enabled via a =
configuration knob.</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>- the SSH host key is dynamically =
generated the first time `sshd` is enabled.</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>- the SSH =
host key itself is in &lt;operational&gt; (not =
&lt;running&gt;)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>This view is =
consistent with the first paragraph in Section 3 of the =E2=80=9Ckeystore=E2=
=80=9D draft (reproduced below):</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>3. =
&nbsp;Support for Built-in Keys<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp;In some implementations, a server may support =
built-in keys. &nbsp;Built-</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;in keys MAY be set during the manufacturing process or be =
dynamically</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>&nbsp; &nbsp;generated the first =
time the server is booted or a particular service</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp;(e.g., SSH) is enabled.</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">As a closing thought, this model =
(which I stated upfront may not be universal) would have no presence-in =
or interaction-with &lt;system&gt;=E2=80=A6though, perhaps, there may be =
some predefined values for what key-algorithms and/or key-lengths to use =
when generating the SSH host key...</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">As for&nbsp;"resource-dependent=E2=80=9D configuration, I =
wonder how this is supposed to work=E2=80=A6more specifically, I wonder =
to what extent the IETF needs to care how if works (perhaps the same =
could be said for&nbsp;"resource-independent=E2=80=9D configuration =
too). &nbsp;For instance, in JUNOS, there exists a config-template that =
is automatically applied to any user-defined interface, such =
as:</span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;junos-default-profile {<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;interfaces {<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"$junos-interface-ifd-name" {<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;unit =
"$junos-underlying-interface-unit" {<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;family inet;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;family inet6;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;}<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;}<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;}<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;}<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Notably, RFC 8342 mentions templates as =
something that might be expanded when converting &lt;running&gt; to =
&lt;intended&gt;. &nbsp;Actually, knowing that it is &lt;intended&gt; =
that is subject to validation, it seems that much (if not all) of =
&lt;system&gt; should be consumed&nbsp;<span style=3D"" class=3D"">when =
converting &lt;running&gt; to &lt;intended&gt; - =
agreed?</span>&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] Do you mean that =
&nbsp;&lt;intended&gt; should include the system configuration which is =
generated due to the expansion of templates? &nbsp;I notice that RFC8342 =
says in sec.4.1<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">=E2=80=9COne of the =
observations:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Some implementations =
have proprietary mechanisms that allow<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">clients to define configuration templates in =
&lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; These<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">templates are expanded automatically by the system, and =
the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">resulting configuration is applied internally.=E2=80=9D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">So I am wondering whether the system-predefined =
config-template would be present in the &lt;running&gt; and updating =
&lt;intended&gt; &nbsp;through performed template-expansion.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">My understanding is that if the config-template is configured =
in &lt;running&gt;, the expanded configuration in the &lt;intended&gt; =
should still be the client configuration.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">If the template is preconfigured by the system, the =
configuration generated through performed template-expansion should be =
only present in the &lt;operational&gt; if not explicitly re-configured =
in &lt;running&gt; by the =
client.</span></i></b></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Firstly, I again have to preface my comment that =
there are likely many ways that templating mechanisms can be defined. =
&nbsp; &nbsp;But, in general, o<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"">nce a templating mechanism has been =
defined, then it stands to reason that templates could be defined either =
in &lt;running&gt; (by operators) or in &lt;system&gt; (by the =
manufacturer). &nbsp;</span>In one implementation I=E2=80=99m familiar =
with, the templates are objects that are =
referenced/parameterized&nbsp;<font color=3D"#000000" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">by other parts of =
the configuration. &nbsp;(Same&nbsp;</span></font><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"">as =
with the predefined objects discussion above.) &nbsp;</span></div><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, =
0);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"">To =
answer your questions:</span></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><font color=3D"#000000" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"">1) Yes, =
it is my opinion that *activated* templates in &lt;system&gt; will be =
expanded and present in &lt;intended&gt;.</span></font></div><div =
class=3D""><font color=3D"#000000" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></font></div><div =
class=3D""><font color=3D"#000000" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"">2) I would never suggest that the =
system-defined templates are present in &lt;running&gt;, though they may =
be&nbsp;</span></font><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"">referenced/parameterized by config in =
&lt;running&gt;.</span></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"">3)&nbsp;</span><font =
color=3D"#000000" class=3D"">if a config-template is configured in =
&lt;running&gt; (i.e., it is operator-defined) then, yes, the expanded =
configuration in &lt;intended&gt; is "client configuration=E2=80=9D =
(note, "client configuration=E2=80=9D is not a formal term). &nbsp;That =
said, it seems fair to say that a template defined in &lt;system&gt; and =
then referenced by "client configuration=E2=80=9D in &lt;running&gt; is =
also expanded as "client configuration=E2=80=9D in =
&lt;intended&gt;.</font></div><div class=3D""><font color=3D"#000000" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></div><div class=3D""><font =
color=3D"#000000" class=3D"">4) I don=E2=80=99t not understand your last =
sentence, that the expansion of &lt;system&gt; templates are =
only&nbsp;present&nbsp;in &lt;operational&gt;. &nbsp;Maybe you=E2=80=99re =
saying something subtle, e.g., that servers currently don=E2=80=99t =
support GET on &lt;intended&gt;. &nbsp;But, in theory, the expansion of =
&lt;system&gt; templates should (IMO) be present in &lt;intended&gt;, so =
that they may be subject to validation. &nbsp; Of course, all the =
&lt;intended&gt; configuration (whether originating in &lt;running&gt; =
or &lt;system&gt;) that is successfully&nbsp;=E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D =
will also be present in &lt;operational&gt;.</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font color=3D"#000000" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></div><div class=3D""><font color=3D"#000000" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></div><div class=3D""><font =
color=3D"#000000" class=3D"">&lt;big snip&gt;</font></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m beginning to think =
that:</span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 72pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; =
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>auto-cop=
ying into &lt;running&gt; is likely never a good idea, because it =
violates the definition of &lt;running&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] I am quite =
aware that different datastores in NMDA represents different views of =
data nodes. &nbsp;And &lt;running&gt; represents a configuration =
datastore holding the current configuration of the device.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Should we consider system configuration also be part of =
current configuration of the device? =46rom my perspective, the =
difference between system configuration and &nbsp;client-configuration =
lies only in who provides =
it.</span></i></b></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>&lt;running&gt; holds the current =
*operator-specified* configuration of the device. &nbsp;System-provided =
configuration is NOT specified by operators (though system-defined =
objects may be referenced by operator-specified config in =
&lt;running&gt;). &nbsp; I believe that this arrangement is consistent =
with the definition of &lt;running&gt;. &nbsp;Agreed?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 72pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; =
line-height: normal; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>having =
in &lt;operational&gt; doesn=E2=80=99t make sense, since the tweaks =
wouldn=E2=80=99t go thru &lt;running&gt; --&gt; &lt;intended&gt; =
validation.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m wondering if a model like =
below would work for everyone - thoughts?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] =
&lt;intended&gt; represents the configuration after all configuration =
transformations to &lt;running&gt; have been performed, so I think it is =
only coupled to &lt;running&gt;.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Anyway, the &lt;system&gt; should also interacts with =
&lt;operational&gt;. =
&nbsp;Agreed?</span></i></b></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br class=3D""></div><div>I don=E2=80=99t agree that &lt;intended&gt; =
must only be coupled to &lt;running&gt;. &nbsp;Specifically, I think =
that it is okay (compatible with NMDA) to define a &lt;system&gt; that =
also impacts &lt;intended&gt;. &nbsp; This is the only (IMO) sane =
approach, as it enables the combination &lt;running&gt; + &lt;system&gt; =
to be validated.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Best Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Qiufang =
Ma</span></i></b></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Cheers,</div><div>Kent // contributor</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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Subject: [netmod] netmod - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 111
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Dear Lou Berger,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    netmod Session 1 (1:00 requested)
    Tuesday, 27 July 2021, Session II 1430-1530
    Room Name: Room 6 size: 506
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/sessions/netmod.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Network Modeling
Area Name: Operations and Management Area
Session Requester: Lou Berger


Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  1 Hour
Number of Attendees: 100
Conflicts to Avoid: 








People who must be present:
  Joel Jaeggli
  Kent Watsen
  Lou Berger
  Robert Wilton

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------



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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: anima@ietf.org, "Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
cc: "netmod\@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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Hi, I have converted RFC8366.xml to Markdown, and switched to the latest MT
makefile, and after a bit of small massage to remove "8366" from the page,
and point to RFCs which are published, the result is at:

https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Drfc8366&url2=3Ddraft-richardson-anima-r=
fc8366bis.txt


Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:
    Rob> More seriously though, this can't be done as an errata.

    Rob> An RFC8366bis is the right option.  If the changes are minor then I
    Rob> may be able to ease the passage through the IESG, but I can't do
    Rob> much to affect the elapsed time.

I propose that the WG adopt this as the -00, and then we change the document
to change this into an RFC7224-style IANA-maintained YANG module.
(In DHC WG, when we did RFC3315bis to make RFC8415 we did a -00 which was
whitespace equivalent to RFC3315 first, and then we amended it)

As I understand it, we would be creating a Registry with IANA Consideration=
s,
and when documents extend the Registry, that IANA writes a new YANG module
(with a new date) for us.

I believe that given that the module gets revised, that we don't have to
worry about enumeration vs leaf/choice/empty.  But, if there is some
advantage to doing it the non-enumeration way, it would be good to understa=
nd
that.

I also think that in our enumeration/Registry, that we should include the
"value" parameter, so that constrained-voucher can consistently set values
even if the enumeration changes order.

Subject: New Version Notification for draft-richardson-anima-rfc8366bis-00.=
txt
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2021 15:03:18 -0700

A new version of I-D, draft-richardson-anima-rfc8366bis-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Michael C. Richardson and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-richardson-anima-rfc8366bis
Revision:	00
Title:		A Voucher Artifact for Bootstrapping Protocols
Document date:	2021-07-04
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		22
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-richardson-anima-rfc8=
366bis-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-anima-rfc=
8366bis/
Html:           https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-richardson-anima-rfc8=
366bis-00.html
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-richardson-anim=
a-rfc8366bis


=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: "Fries\, Steffen" <steffen.fries@siemens.com>, "Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "anima\@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "netmod\@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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Fries, Steffen <steffen.fries@siemens.com> wrote:
    >> I thought I wrote a really nice ASCII art version of what documents =
inherit from
    >> RFC8366.  I can't find it in my outbox... I wonder if I nuked the dr=
aft by mistake.
    >>
    >> The short of it:
    >> RFC8366 -> RFC8995 (voucher-request)
    -> constrained-voucher (voucher-request, voucher)
    -> brski-async-enroll (voucher-request)

    > Would it make sense to also state the voucher for BRSKI-AE as it also
    > uses the voucher and tries to argue for a new assertion type
    > (agent-proximity)?

I am of two feelings here.
On the one hand, it would be IANA proceedurally simpler to include the new
assertion type into the 8366bis document.

On the other hand, this means having some kind of explanation in RFC8366bis
for the new choice, and that might force a lot of text to enter and get rev=
iewed.

Once RFC8366bis is published, then async-enroll can make use of the IANA
Considerations to allocate that new enum value.  That won't slow async-enro=
ll
down, because either way, it has to wait for RFC8366bis.

Where I'm a bit blurry is how stuff like the YANG in RFC8995, which uses
RFC8366 gets updated when IANA revises the module.  I think, it mostly
doesn't matter because none of are generating code from YANG... AT THIS TIM=
E.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
to: anima@ietf.org, "Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "netmod\@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
    > I propose that the WG adopt this as the -00, and then we change the d=
ocument
    > to change this into an RFC7224-style IANA-maintained YANG module.
    > (In DHC WG, when we did RFC3315bis to make RFC8415 we did a -00 which=
 was
    > whitespace equivalent to RFC3315 first, and then we amended it)

    > As I understand it, we would be creating a Registry with IANA Conside=
rations,
    > and when documents extend the Registry, that IANA writes a new YANG m=
odule
    > (with a new date) for us.

    > I believe that given that the module gets revised, that we don't have=
 to
    > worry about enumeration vs leaf/choice/empty.  But, if there is some
    > advantage to doing it the non-enumeration way, it would be good to un=
derstand
    > that.

But, we might want to do a WG Consensus call on the differences.
We might also want to ask a YANG Doctor to come to the ANIMA WG meeting
at the end of the Month, to explain the differences.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide

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From nobody Mon Jul  5 02:38:12 2021
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From: "Fries, Steffen" <steffen.fries@siemens.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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Subject: Re: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities
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Hi Rob,

Thanks for your detailed review.
A new draft version has been posted.

URL:https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities-17.txt
Status:https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities/
Htmlized:https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities
Diff:https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities-17


See the justifications below.

On 6/21/2021 10:45 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Here is my AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabiltiies-16
>
> Thanks for this draft, sorry for the delay in reviewing.  It looks like it is in good shape.
>
> I think that most of my comments are minor or cosmetic suggestions to potentially improve the phrasing of the text.
>
>
> 1.
> Abstract:
>
>     The module "ietf-system-capabilities" provides a placeholder
>     structure that can be used to discover YANG related system
>     capabilities for servers.  The module can be used to report
>     capability information from the server at run-time or implementation-
>     time, per the YANG Instance Data File Format.
>
> Suggest "by making use of" rather than "per".
DONE.
>
>
> 2.
>     1.  Introduction
>
>     There is a need to publish this capability information as it is part
>     of the contract between the server and client.
>
> Suggest "contract" -> "API contract".
DONE
>
>
> 3.
>     There is a need to publish this capability information as it is part
>     of the contract between the server and client.  Examples include
>     maximum size of data that can be stored or transferred, information
>     about counters (whether a node supports "on-change" telemetry), etc.
>     Such capabilities are often dependent on a vendor's implementation or
>     the available resources at deployment.  Many such capabilities are
>     specific to either the complete system, individual YANG datastores
>     [RFC8342] or specific parts of the YANG schema, or even individual
>     data nodes.  It is a goal of this document to provide a common way of
>     representing such capabilities in a format that is:
>
> Suggest: maximum -> the maximum
>           "or specific" -> ", specific"
DONE
>
>
> 4.
>     o  available in identical format both at implementation-time and run-
>        time
> 	
> Suggest: "in an identical", and a period at the end.
DONE
>
>
> 5.
>     If the information is
>     not documented in a way available to the NMS designer, but only as
>     instance data from the network node once it is deployed, the NMS
>     implementation will be delayed
>
> Suggest: "way available" => "way that is readily available"
DONE
>
>
> 6.
>     The network operator needs to plan his
>     management practices and NMS implementation before he even decides to
>     buy the specific network node type.
>
> Suggest: "him" -> "their", "he even decides" -> "they decide"
DONE
>
>
> 7.
>     Run-time information is needed:
>     
> Suggest: Run-time capability information is needed:
DONE.
>
>
> 8.
>     o  to check that capability information provided earlier, at
>        implementation-time is what the publisher has implemented.
>
> Suggest: "at implementation-time, is"
DONE
>
>
> 9.
>       To find a capability value for a specific data node in a
>       specific datastore the user SHALL:
> 	
> Please clarify that the capability value is selected by the relative path
> to the datanode defining the capability.  i.e., the same name/path must be
> used both under the system level and per datastore level capabilties.
NEW SENTENCE.

"When stating a specific capability, the relative path for any specific
capability must be the same under the system-capabilities container and
under the per-node-capabilities list: the same grouping for defining the
capabilities MUST be used. "

> 10.
> 2) If the datastore entry is found within that entry, process all
>       per-node-capabilities entries in the order they appear in the list.
>       The first entry that specifies the specific capability and has a
>       node-selector selecting the specific data node defines the
>       capability value.
>
> I'm not sure this is required, but perhaps consider adding text to make it clear
> that longest path matching can be achieved by ordering more specific
> matches before less specific matches.
ADDED "Note that longest path matching can be achieved by ordering more 
specific matches before less specific ones"
under

     list per-node-capabilities {
         description
           "Each list entry specifies capabilities for the selected
            data nodes. The same capabilities apply for the data nodes
            in the subtree below the selected nodes.

            The system SHALL order the entries according to their
            precedence. The order of the entries MUST NOT change unless
            the underlying capabilities also change.";

We did NOT add next to "2) If the datastore entry is found within that 
entry ..." because that section focuses on the user (as opposed to the 
implementer on the server), as mentioned in "To find a capability value 
for a specific data node in a

      specific datastore the user SHALL:"

>
>
> 11.
>      // augmentation point for system level capabilities
> Suggest: "Augmentation ... capabilities."  I would also suggest using a block style
> comment so this doesn't get lost.	
DONE.
>
>
> 12.
>             Only one specific datastore can be specified
>             e.g., ds:conventional is not allowed.";
> 		
> Suggest changing to:
>
>             Only specific datastores can be specified.
> 		   E.g., ds:conventional, which represents a
> 		   set of configuration datastores, must not be
> 		   used";
DONE
>
>
> 13.
>            description
>              "A method to select all or some nodes within a datastore.";
>
> "some or all" would flow better.
DONE
>
>
> 14.
>          // augmentation point for datastore or data node level
>          // capabilities
>
> Suggest: "Augmentation ... capabilities."  I would also suggest using a block style
> comment so this doesn't get lost.
DONE.
>
>
> 15.
> 5.2.  YANG Module (ietf-notification-capabilities)
>
>        - capabilities related to the throughput of notification data
>        the publisher can support. (Note that for a specific
>        subscription the publisher MAY still allow only longer periods
>        or smaller updates depending on e.g., actual load conditions.)
> 	
> Suggest: "data that the publisher"
>           "specific subscription, the"
> 		 "still allow" -> "allow"
>           "e.g., -> ", e.g., "		
DONE.
>   
>
>
> 16.
>             bit config-changes {
>               description
>                 "The publisher is capable of sending
>                  notifications for 'config false' nodes for the
>                  relevant scope and subscription type.";
> 				
> I presume that this should this be 'config true' nodes?
GOOD CATCH+

>
>
> 17.
>           description
>             "Type for defining whether 'on-change' or
>              'periodic' notifications are supported 'config false'
>              data nodes, 'config true' date nodes, no data nodes,
>              or all data nodes.
> 			
> Suggest: "supported for 'config false'",
>           "date" -> "data
> As an optional minor nit, it might be worth putting 'all' at the beginning
> of the list rather than the end.
DONE.
>
>
> 18.
>               "Indicates the minimal update period that is
>                supported for a 'periodic' subscription.
>
>                A subscription request to the selected data
>                nodes with a smaller period than what this leaf
>                specifies will result in a 'period-unsupported' error.";
>
> Is "will result" right here, or should it be "MAY result" or "is likely to result"?
> I.e., is the server guaranteeing that it won't handle a smaller update for the
> given capability under any circumstance?  The same question also applies
> to the "supported-update-period".
DONE. "is likely to result"
>
>
> 19.
>             "The change types that can be excluded in
>              YANG-Push subscriptions.";
> 			
> Suggest adding something like "for the selected data nodes."
DONE
>
>
> 20.
> 7.2.  The YANG Module Names Registry
>
>     This document registers two YANG modules in the YANG Module Names
>     registry.  Following the format in [RFC7950], the the following
>     registrations are requested:
>     
> This should be (along with a normative reference to RFC 6020):
>
>     This document registers two YANG modules in the YANG Module Names
>     registry [RFC6020].  Following the format in [RFC6020], the the following
>     registrations are requested:
DONE.
>
>
> 21.
> 9.2.  Informative References
>
>     [RFC3688]  Mealling, M., "The IETF XML Registry", BCP 81, RFC 3688,
>                DOI 10.17487/RFC3688, January 2004,
>                <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3688>.
> 			
> This needs to be a normative reference (for the IANA registry) definition.
DONE
>
>
> 22.
> Appendix A.  Instance data example #1
>
> Suggest changing:
> "the running, and operational datastores" => "the running and operational datastores".
> '"on-change" only' -> '"on-change", only'
> 'reported "on-change" as they' -> 'reported "on-change", as they'
DONE
>
>
> 23.
> ========== NOTE: '\' line wrapping per BCP YYY (RFC YYYY) ===========
>
> This can be updated to "NOTE: '\' line wrapping per RFC 8792".
DONE
>
>
> 24.
> "only has running, and operational" -> "only has running and operational"
DONE.
>
>
> 25.
>      false" data from the operational datastore. Statistics are
>      not reported on-change only two important counters, for these
>      a smaller dampening period is possible.
> 	
> Suggest:
> 	false" data from the operational datastore. Statistics are
>      not reported on-change except for two important counters, where
>      a small dampening period is mandated.
DONE.
> 	
>
> Spelling/grammar warnings (generated by tool):
>
> Potentially incorrect spellings: sheperds, getconfig
>
> Grammar Warnings:
> Section: 1, draft text:
>   Servers and/or a publishers often have capabilities, values describing operational behavior, that need to be conveyed to clients, which is enabled by the YANG modules described in this document.
> Warning:  The plural noun "publishers" cannot be used with the article "a". Did you mean a publisher or publishers?
> Suggested change:  "a publisher"
DONE
>
> Section: 1, draft text:
> It is a goal of this document to provide a common way of representing such capabilities in a format that is:
> - vendor independent
> - machine readable
> - available in identical format both at implementation-time and run-time
>
> Warning:  This word is normally spelled with hyphen.
> Suggested change:  "machine-readable"
DONE
>
>
> Section: 1, draft text:
> It is a goal of this document to provide a common way of representing such capabilities in a format that is:
> - vendor independent
> - machine readable
> - available in identical format both at implementation-time and run-time
>
> Warning:  Please add a punctuation mark at the end of paragraph.
> Suggested change:  "run-time."
DONE
>
>
> Section: 1, draft text:
> Moreover the decision to buy the node type sometimes depends on these management possibilities.
> Warning:  Did you forget a comma after a conjunctive/linking adverb?
> Suggested change:  "Moreover,"
DONE.
>
>
> Section: 1.1, draft text:
>   "Implementation-time information": Information about the server's behavior that is made available during the implementation of the server, available from a source other then a running server.
> Warning:  Did you mean other than?
> Suggested change:  "other than"
DONE.
>
>
> Section: 3, draft text:
> These include:
> - Supported (reporting) periods for "periodic" subscriptions
> - Maximum number of objects that can be sent in an update
> - The set of datastores or data nodes for which "periodic" notification is supported
>
> Warning:  Please add a punctuation mark at the end of paragraph.
> Suggested change:  "supported."
DONE
>
>
> Section: 7.2, draft text:
> Following the format in [RFC7950], the the following registrations are requested:
> Warning:  Maybe you need to remove one determiner so that only the or the is left.
> Suggested change:  "the"
DONE
>
>
> Section: Appendix C, draft text:
> In this latter case it is really the server functionality that is discussed
>
> Warning:  Please add a punctuation mark at the end of paragraph.
> Suggested change:  "discussed."
DONE
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
> .


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    Hi Rob,<br>
    <br>
    Thanks for your detailed review.<br>
    A new draft version has been posted.<br>
    <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">URL:            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities-17.txt">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities-17.txt</a>
Status:         <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities/</a>
Htmlized:       <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities</a>
Diff:           <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities-17">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities-17</a></pre>
    <br>
    See the justifications below.<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/21/2021 10:45 AM, Rob Wilton
      (rwilton) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Hi,

Here is my AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabiltiies-16

Thanks for this draft, sorry for the delay in reviewing.  It looks like it is in good shape.

I think that most of my comments are minor or cosmetic suggestions to potentially improve the phrasing of the text.


1.
Abstract:

   The module "ietf-system-capabilities" provides a placeholder
   structure that can be used to discover YANG related system
   capabilities for servers.  The module can be used to report
   capability information from the server at run-time or implementation-
   time, per the YANG Instance Data File Format.

Suggest "by making use of" rather than "per".</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


2.
   1.  Introduction

   There is a need to publish this capability information as it is part
   of the contract between the server and client.

Suggest "contract" -&gt; "API contract".</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


3.
   There is a need to publish this capability information as it is part
   of the contract between the server and client.  Examples include
   maximum size of data that can be stored or transferred, information
   about counters (whether a node supports "on-change" telemetry), etc.
   Such capabilities are often dependent on a vendor's implementation or
   the available resources at deployment.  Many such capabilities are
   specific to either the complete system, individual YANG datastores
   [RFC8342] or specific parts of the YANG schema, or even individual
   data nodes.  It is a goal of this document to provide a common way of
   representing such capabilities in a format that is:

Suggest: maximum -&gt; the maximum
         "or specific" -&gt; ", specific"</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


4.
   o  available in identical format both at implementation-time and run-
      time
	  
Suggest: "in an identical", and a period at the end.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


5.
   If the information is
   not documented in a way available to the NMS designer, but only as
   instance data from the network node once it is deployed, the NMS
   implementation will be delayed

Suggest: "way available" =&gt; "way that is readily available"</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


6.
   The network operator needs to plan his
   management practices and NMS implementation before he even decides to
   buy the specific network node type.

Suggest: "him" -&gt; "their", "he even decides" -&gt; "they decide"</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


7.
   Run-time information is needed:
   
Suggest: Run-time capability information is needed:</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


8.
   o  to check that capability information provided earlier, at
      implementation-time is what the publisher has implemented.

Suggest: "at implementation-time, is"</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


9.
     To find a capability value for a specific data node in a
     specific datastore the user SHALL:
	 
Please clarify that the capability value is selected by the relative path
to the datanode defining the capability.  i.e., the same name/path must be
used both under the system level and per datastore level capabilties.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    NEW SENTENCE. <br>
    <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">"When stating a specific capability, the relative path for any specific
capability must be the same under the system-capabilities container and
under the per-node-capabilities list: the same grouping for defining the
capabilities MUST be used. "</pre>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">10.
2) If the datastore entry is found within that entry, process all
     per-node-capabilities entries in the order they appear in the list.
     The first entry that specifies the specific capability and has a
     node-selector selecting the specific data node defines the
     capability value.

I'm not sure this is required, but perhaps consider adding text to make it clear
that longest path matching can be achieved by ordering more specific
matches before less specific matches.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    ADDED "Note that longest path matching can be achieved by ordering
    more specific matches before less specific ones"<br>
    under <br>
    <pre class="newpage">    list per-node-capabilities {
        description
          "Each list entry specifies capabilities for the selected
           data nodes. The same capabilities apply for the data nodes
           in the subtree below the selected nodes.

           The system SHALL order the entries according to their
           precedence. The order of the entries MUST NOT change unless
           the underlying capabilities also change.";</pre>
    We did NOT add next to "2) If the datastore entry is found within
    that entry ..." because that section focuses on the user (as opposed
    to the implementer on the server), as mentioned in "To find a
    capability value for a specific data node in a
    <pre class="newpage">     specific datastore the user SHALL:"</pre>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


11.
    // augmentation point for system level capabilities
Suggest: "Augmentation ... capabilities."  I would also suggest using a block style
comment so this doesn't get lost.	</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


12. 
           Only one specific datastore can be specified
           e.g., ds:conventional is not allowed.";
		   
Suggest changing to:

           Only specific datastores can be specified.
		   E.g., ds:conventional, which represents a
		   set of configuration datastores, must not be
		   used";</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


13.
          description
            "A method to select all or some nodes within a datastore.";

"some or all" would flow better.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


14.
        // augmentation point for datastore or data node level
        // capabilities

Suggest: "Augmentation ... capabilities."  I would also suggest using a block style
comment so this doesn't get lost.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


15.
5.2.  YANG Module (ietf-notification-capabilities)

      - capabilities related to the throughput of notification data
      the publisher can support. (Note that for a specific
      subscription the publisher MAY still allow only longer periods
      or smaller updates depending on e.g., actual load conditions.)
	  
Suggest: "data that the publisher"
         "specific subscription, the"
		 "still allow" -&gt; "allow"
         "e.g., -&gt; ", e.g., "		</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap=""> 


16.
           bit config-changes {
             description
               "The publisher is capable of sending
                notifications for 'config false' nodes for the
                relevant scope and subscription type.";
				
I presume that this should this be 'config true' nodes?</pre>
    </blockquote>
    GOOD CATCH+<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


17.
         description
           "Type for defining whether 'on-change' or
            'periodic' notifications are supported 'config false'
            data nodes, 'config true' date nodes, no data nodes,
            or all data nodes.
			
Suggest: "supported for 'config false'",
         "date" -&gt; "data
As an optional minor nit, it might be worth putting 'all' at the beginning
of the list rather than the end.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


18.
             "Indicates the minimal update period that is
              supported for a 'periodic' subscription.

              A subscription request to the selected data
              nodes with a smaller period than what this leaf
              specifies will result in a 'period-unsupported' error.";

Is "will result" right here, or should it be "MAY result" or "is likely to result"?
I.e., is the server guaranteeing that it won't handle a smaller update for the
given capability under any circumstance?  The same question also applies
to the "supported-update-period".</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE. "is likely to result"<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


19.
           "The change types that can be excluded in
            YANG-Push subscriptions.";
			
Suggest adding something like "for the selected data nodes."</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


20.
7.2.  The YANG Module Names Registry

   This document registers two YANG modules in the YANG Module Names
   registry.  Following the format in [RFC7950], the the following
   registrations are requested:
   
This should be (along with a normative reference to RFC 6020):

   This document registers two YANG modules in the YANG Module Names
   registry [RFC6020].  Following the format in [RFC6020], the the following
   registrations are requested:</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


21.
9.2.  Informative References

   [RFC3688]  Mealling, M., "The IETF XML Registry", BCP 81, RFC 3688,
              DOI 10.17487/RFC3688, January 2004,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3688">&lt;https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3688&gt;</a>.
			 
This needs to be a normative reference (for the IANA registry) definition.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


22.
Appendix A.  Instance data example #1

Suggest changing:
"the running, and operational datastores" =&gt; "the running and operational datastores".
'"on-change" only' -&gt; '"on-change", only'
'reported "on-change" as they' -&gt; 'reported "on-change", as they'</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


23.
========== NOTE: '\' line wrapping per BCP YYY (RFC YYYY) ===========

This can be updated to "NOTE: '\' line wrapping per RFC 8792".</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


24.
"only has running, and operational" -&gt; "only has running and operational"</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


25.
    false" data from the operational datastore. Statistics are
    not reported on-change only two important counters, for these
    a smaller dampening period is possible.
	
Suggest:
	false" data from the operational datastore. Statistics are
    not reported on-change except for two important counters, where
    a small dampening period is mandated.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
	

Spelling/grammar warnings (generated by tool):

Potentially incorrect spellings: sheperds, getconfig

Grammar Warnings:
Section: 1, draft text:
 Servers and/or a publishers often have capabilities, values describing operational behavior, that need to be conveyed to clients, which is enabled by the YANG modules described in this document. 
Warning:  The plural noun "publishers" cannot be used with the article "a". Did you mean a publisher or publishers?
Suggested change:  "a publisher"</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">

Section: 1, draft text:
It is a goal of this document to provide a common way of representing such capabilities in a format that is: 
- vendor independent
- machine readable
- available in identical format both at implementation-time and run-time

Warning:  This word is normally spelled with hyphen.
Suggested change:  "machine-readable"</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


Section: 1, draft text:
It is a goal of this document to provide a common way of representing such capabilities in a format that is: 
- vendor independent
- machine readable
- available in identical format both at implementation-time and run-time

Warning:  Please add a punctuation mark at the end of paragraph.
Suggested change:  "run-time."</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


Section: 1, draft text:
Moreover the decision to buy the node type sometimes depends on these management possibilities. 
Warning:  Did you forget a comma after a conjunctive/linking adverb?
Suggested change:  "Moreover,"</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


Section: 1.1, draft text:
 "Implementation-time information": Information about the server's behavior that is made available during the implementation of the server, available from a source other then a running server. 
Warning:  Did you mean other than?
Suggested change:  "other than"</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


Section: 3, draft text:
These include: 
- Supported (reporting) periods for "periodic" subscriptions
- Maximum number of objects that can be sent in an update
- The set of datastores or data nodes for which "periodic" notification is supported

Warning:  Please add a punctuation mark at the end of paragraph.
Suggested change:  "supported."</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


Section: 7.2, draft text:
Following the format in [RFC7950], the the following registrations are requested:
Warning:  Maybe you need to remove one determiner so that only the or the is left.
Suggested change:  "the"</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">


Section: Appendix C, draft text:
In this latter case it is really the server functionality that is discussed

Warning:  Please add a punctuation mark at the end of paragraph.
Suggested change:  "discussed."</pre>
    </blockquote>
    DONE<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM4PR11MB54380D220515D83AF8F84DE8B50A9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">

Thanks,
Rob
.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>, =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBMZW5neWVs?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities@ietf.org>
CC: NetMod WG Chairs <netmod-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities
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Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 11:03:30 +0000
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Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities
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From: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/lrfvv2kitxgdkRtvA-fVG5PyzWk>
Subject: Re: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Michael Richardson <mcr=
+ietf@sandelman.ca>=0A=
Sent: 05 July 2021 00:21=0A=
=0A=
Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:=0A=
    > I propose that the WG adopt this as the -00, and then we change the d=
ocument=0A=
    > to change this into an RFC7224-style IANA-maintained YANG module.=0A=
    > (In DHC WG, when we did RFC3315bis to make RFC8415 we did a -00 which=
 was=0A=
    > whitespace equivalent to RFC3315 first, and then we amended it)=0A=
=0A=
    > As I understand it, we would be creating a Registry with IANA Conside=
rations,=0A=
    > and when documents extend the Registry, that IANA writes a new YANG m=
odule=0A=
    > (with a new date) for us.=0A=
=0A=
    > I believe that given that the module gets revised, that we don't have=
 to=0A=
    > worry about enumeration vs leaf/choice/empty.  But, if there is some=
=0A=
    > advantage to doing it the non-enumeration way, it would be good to un=
derstand=0A=
    > that.=0A=
=0A=
But, we might want to do a WG Consensus call on the differences.=0A=
We might also want to ask a YANG Doctor to come to the ANIMA WG meeting=0A=
at the end of the Month, to explain the differences.=0A=
=0A=
<tp>=0A=
I would love to know what the problem is (rather than possible solutions to=
 potential problems:-)=0A=
=0A=
enum and identity are solutions with different characteristics as others ha=
ve spelt out.  Which is better depends on the problem, how easy it should b=
e to make changes or to prevent people from  making changes:-)=0A=
=0A=
Likewise involving IANA.  They maintain registries which anyone can access.=
  They perform updates, on request, according to the policy of the registry=
, which is set when the registry is set up and can range from requiring a S=
tandards Track RFC to First Come First Served, depending on how easy you wa=
nt it to be to make changes.  See 'IANA Considerations' RFC for the range o=
f options.  And they can turn updates to a registry into an update to a cod=
e module (such as an SMI MIB). =0A=
=0A=
So the IANA Considerations section in an RFC creates the registry but what =
it takes to  update it varies depending on what they say.=0A=
=0A=
What I am missing is how easy or difficult you want it to be to make change=
s, who will make changes, (IETF only, another SDO, a manufacturer ....), wh=
at review you want for changes by whom, how frequent changes will be (usual=
ly a guess and usually wrong but it helps to have the assumptions about the=
 requirements spelt out) and such like.=0A=
=0A=
As an engineer, I do like to know the requirements before working on the de=
sign!=0A=
=0A=
Tom Petch=0A=
--=0A=
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=F8T consulting =
)=0A=
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide=0A=


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Subject: [netmod] FW: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hello Rob,
Thanks for the review.  Here are my answers below. I will also upload the
new version asap.
Regards Balazs
-----------------------------------------------------------
Hi,

Here is my AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-13.

Thanks for this document, I think that it represents important useful work
for advancing the YANG ecosystem.

This document is in good shape, and I mostly have minor comments but with a
few more significant comments.

Main comments:

1.
   An instance data set MAY contain data for any number of YANG modules;
   if needed it MAY carry the complete configuration and state data for
   a server.  Default values SHOULD NOT be included.

This document recommends that default values SHOULD NOT be included, but
there are cases where they are useful, and e.g., NMDA recommends that
"in-use" values (effectively including default values) are returned.
Further, there is no way for a consumer of the file to know whether default
values are included or not.

Hence, I would recommend that the instance-data-set defines an
"includes-defaults" leaf that indicates whether default values are included
in the dataset, the leaf can default to them not being included in the
dataset.

Further, I would suggest weakening "Default values SHOULD NOT be included"
to something like:
"Default values should be excluded where they do not provide additional
useful data."
BALAZS: Section 2 states that a default attribute may be specified,
following the with-defaults capability. 
However, your proposal is better. I will include it. 
Added leaf includes-defaults.

2.
In the YANG Module:
     feature inline-content-schema {
       description
         "This feature indicates that inline content-schema
          option is supported. Support for this feature might
          be documented only via out-of-band documentation.";
     }
	 
What is the benefit of having 'inline-content-schema' as a feature?  It
seems to potentially add complexity without any benefit, given that the
device originating the instance data file would effectively choose whether
to use the inline-content-schema, hence I suggest that it might be simpler
just to remove the feature definition.
BALAZS: This was explicitly requested earlier by a reviewer (Andy ?).
The system can declare supported/not-supported in design documentation.
In a use-case when a client or a design department is sending data to a
server this is needed. E.g. in UC2, Preloading Default Configuration the
designer preparing instance data, can decide to use or not use the
inline-content-schema based on this.
   
3.
In the YANG Module:

	"case inline", description:
                    The first item is either ietf-yang-library or
                    some other YANG module that contains a list of
                    YANG modules with their name, revision-date,
                    supported-features, and deviations.
                    The usage of revision '2019-01-04' of the
                    'ietf-yang-library' module MUST be supported.
                    Using other modules, module versions MAY also
                    be supported.

This seems to make interop for consumers of instance data files hard, since
the schema can be defined by any arbitrary YANG module without updating this
module.  I would suggest that it is safer to limit this to the two currently
published versions of YANG library.
BALAZS:  I fully agree, however this was explicitly requested by some
reviewer earlier (Juergen ?) Shall I simplify this or not?

If additional modules are supported in future, then I think that it would be
safer to create a new version of this YANG module that documents what other
module formats can be used.


4.
In the YANG Module:
	list "revision"

Is revision expected to be unique, if provided? If so, should this be
explicitly stated in the YANG module description?
BALAZS: I don't think I understand your comment. There may be multiple list
entries for revision. The 'leaf date' is a key, so it is inherently unique.
The description may or may not be unique.


5.
In the YANG Module:

Is an instance-data file allowed to contain both a revision and also a
timestamp?  If so, is there any constraints on the values.  If not, then
would it make sense to put them under a choice?
BALAZS:  It is allowed to have both. There is some recommendation text about
when to use each. However I can see some corner cases, when using both in
the same file would be useful, E.g. we want a timestamp including hour,
minutes, but we also want the history of the instance data set, including
multible revision/descriptions.
I propose to add: if both are included the timestamp, SHOULD contain
the same date as the latest revision statement.


6.
References:
- RFC 6020 needs to be normative for the IANA YANG module registration.
BALAZS: OK

Minor comments:

7. 
Abstract:

   There is a need to document data defined in YANG models when a live
   server is unavailable.  Data is often needed at design or
   implementation time or needed when a live running server is
   unavailable.  This document specifies a standard file format for YANG
   instance data, which follows the syntax and semantics of existing
   YANG models, and annotates it with metadata.
   
I suggest combining the first 2 sentences to:

There is a need to document data defined in YANG models at design,
implementation time or when a live server is unavailable.
BALAZS: OK

8.
Sec 1. Introduction:
I suggest tweaking 2nd sentence to:
	Data is often needed at design, implementation time, or when a live
	running server is unavailable. 
BALAZS: OK

9.   
Sec 2. Instance Data File Format:

   o  a default attribute as defined in [RFC6243] section 6. and in
      [RFC8040] section 4.8.9.
	  
I would suggest putting default in quotes.  E.g., "a 'default' attribute, as
defined ...".
BALAZS: OK

For the two other bullets in the list, it might read better as "metadata, as
defined ..." and "origin metadata, as specified ..."
BALAZS: OK

10.
Sec 2. Instance Data File Format:
	instance-data-set-name ['@' ( revision-date / timestamp ) ]
(i) Possibly helpful to clarify that the revision-date and timestamp take
the same format  as they are encoded in the equivalent leaves in the YANG
file. 
(ii) Would it be helpful to include an example without a revision-date?
(iii) I also note that no recommendation is made as to whether a date or
timestamp is
   included (which I think is okay).
BALAZS:  OK, Added text for (i). Added example for (ii)


11.
Sec: 2.2 Examples
(i) Should the module name start with example-acme-system-ext and
acme.example.com
BALAZS: IMHO the use of "acme" as a company name already indicates this is
an example. "E.g." and the word "example" is also included in the text in a
number of places.

(ii) Would it be helpful for some/all of the examples to also give the
filename that they would be expected to use?
BALAZS: OK. Actually, they already have filenames, but it is only visible in
the XML not in the TXT format. If you export the files with rfcstrip these
filenames will be used. I added the filenames into the text too.


12.
YANG Module:
(i) I note that the module only indicates Balazs as an author and not Benoit
(which 
   differs from the draft authors).
BALAZS: OK. added Benoit

(ii) "format-version"
Please ensure that there is an RFC editor note to update this value if the
module gets changed in anyway during reviews or RFC editor process.
BALAZS: OK. added

(iii)
"case simplified-inline", description:

                  The value SHALL start with the module name.
                  If the module contains a revision statement the
                  revision date SHALL be included in the leaf-list
                  entry. If other methods (e.g., revision-label) are
                  defined to identify individual module revisions
                  those MAY be used instead of using a revision date.

I wonder whether it would be clearer to merge the second and third sentences
into one:

                  The value SHALL start with the module name.
                  If the module contains a revision statement the
                  revision date SHALL be included in the leaf-list
                  entry, unless other methods (e.g., revision-label) are
                  defined to identify individual module revisions, when
                  those MAY be used instead of using a revision date.


If you agree to this change, then please update the equivalent text in the
inline case as well.				  
BALAZS: OK, changed

(iv)
Should the example version of YANG library used match the mandatory to
support version (in the YANG module)?
BALAZS: OK, changed. But I will still use the old modules-state branch
because its simpler

(v)
I also note that the content schema case statement order differs from how
they are described earlier in the document.  Does it make sense to align
them?  Is one of the content-schema-specs the default approach, i.e., does
it make sense to specify a default for the choice statement?
BALAZS: IMO default should not be specified. In chapter 2.1 we have:
"External Method: Do not include the "content-schema" node; the
      user needs to obtain the information through external documents."
In this case, none of the "cases" are used.
Reordered items in section 2.1. IMHO the simplified inline will be the most
used method.


13.
IANA section

	5.2.  YANG Module Name Registration

	   This document registers one YANG module in the YANG Module Names
	   registry [RFC6020].
   
Please change to:
   
   This document registers a YANG module in the YANG Module Names
   registry [RFC6020].  Following the format in [RFC6020], the following
   registrations are requested:
BALAZS: OK, changed


Grammar Warnings (generated, by tool):
Section: 2, draft text:
Later as other YANG encodings (e.g., CBOR) are defined, further instance
data formats may be specified. 
Warning:  Comparison requires than, not 'then' nor 'as'.
Suggested change:  "Later, as other ..."
BALAZS: OK

Section: 2.1.1, draft text:
 The anydata inline-schema carries instance data (conforming to the
inline-modules) that actually specifies the content defining YANG modules
including revision, supported features, deviations and any relevant
additional data (e.g., revision labels, described by [REF]) as alternative
to the revision date). 
Warning:  Unpaired symbol: '(' seems to be missing
BALAZS: OK, actually there was one to many ")"

Section: 4, draft text:
Because of this the the security considerations template for YANG models in
section 3.7.1 in [REF] is not followed. 
Warning:  Maybe you need to remove one determiner so that only the or the is
left.
Suggested change:  "the"
BALAZS: OK

Section: 4, draft text:
Depending on the nature of the instance data, instance data files MAY need
to be handled in a secure way. 
Warning:  Consider replacing this phrase with the adverb securely to avoid
wordiness.
Suggested change:  "securely"
BALAZS: OK

Section: C.1, draft text:
Server capabilities include: 
-  data defined in "ietf-yang-library": YANG modules, submodules, features,
deviations, schema-mounts, and datastores supported ([REF])
- alarms supported ([REF])
- data nodes and subtrees that support or do not support on-change
notifications ([REF])
- netconf-capabilities in ietf-netconf-monitoring


Warning:  Please add a punctuation mark at the end of paragraph.
Suggested change:  "ietf-netconf-monitoring."
BALAZS: OK
Thanks,
Rob

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From nobody Mon Jul  5 05:59:55 2021
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Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-14.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Instance Data File Format
        Authors         : Balazs Lengyel
                          Benoit Claise
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-14.txt
	Pages           : 29
	Date            : 2021-07-05

Abstract:
   There is a need to document data defined in YANG models at design,
   implementation time or when a live server is unavailable.  This
   document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance data,
   which follows the syntax and semantics of existing YANG models, and
   annotates it with metadata.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-14

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-14


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>, "anima\@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "netmod\@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
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    tp> Likewise involving IANA.  They maintain registries which anyone can
    tp> access.  They perform updates, on request, according to the policy =
of
    tp> the registry, which is set when the registry is set up and can range
    tp> from requiring a Standards Track RFC to First Come First Served,
    tp> depending on how easy you want it to be to make changes.  See 'IANA
    tp> Considerations' RFC for the range of options.  And they can turn
    tp> updates to a registry into an update to a code module (such as an S=
MI
    tp> MIB).

Probably Standards Track RFC to update the voucher types.

    tp> What I am missing is how easy or difficult you want it to be to make
    tp> changes, who will make changes, (IETF only, another SDO, a manufact=
urer
    tp> ....), what review you want for changes by whom, how frequent chang=
es
    tp> will be (usually a guess and usually wrong but it helps to have the
    tp> assumptions about the requirements spelt out) and such like.

    tp> As an engineer, I do like to know the requirements before working o=
n the design!

We need to be able to write RFCs that extend the voucher types.
Not that often though.


=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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From: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/QqVbZ865RIsLAcACc0WszQyJH1Q>
Subject: Re: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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From: Michael Richardson=0A=
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2021 16:17=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
    tp> Likewise involving IANA.  They maintain registries which anyone can=
=0A=
=0A=
    tp> access.  They perform updates, on request, according to the policy =
of=0A=
=0A=
    tp> the registry, which is set when the registry is set up and can rang=
e=0A=
=0A=
    tp> from requiring a Standards Track RFC to First Come First Served,=0A=
=0A=
    tp> depending on how easy you want it to be to make changes.  See 'IANA=
=0A=
=0A=
    tp> Considerations' RFC for the range of options.  And they can turn=0A=
=0A=
    tp> updates to a registry into an update to a code module (such as an S=
MI=0A=
=0A=
    tp> MIB).=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Probably Standards Track RFC to update the voucher types.=0A=
=0A=
    tp> What I am missing is how easy or difficult you want it to be to mak=
e=0A=
    tp> changes, who will make changes, (IETF only, another SDO, a manufact=
urer=0A=
    tp> ....), what review you want for changes by whom, how frequent chang=
es=0A=
    tp> will be (usually a guess and usually wrong but it helps to have the=
=0A=
    tp> assumptions about the requirements spelt out) and such like.=0A=
=0A=
    tp> As an engineer, I do like to know the requirements before working o=
n the design!=0A=
=0A=
We need to be able to write RFCs that extend the voucher types.=0A=
=0A=
Not that often though.=0A=
=0A=
<tp>=0A=
=0A=
Michael,=0A=
=0A=
That is nice and clear.=0A=
=0A=
To quote an earlier e-mail in this thread,=0A=
> Where I'm a bit blurry is how stuff like the YANG in RFC8995, which uses=
=0A=
> RFC8366 gets updated when IANA revises the module.  I think, it mostly do=
esn't=0A=
> matter because none of are generating code from YANG... AT THIS TIME.=0A=
Well my answer would be that confusion reigns.=A0 An IANA Registry is autho=
ritative so the minute the RFC is published asking IANA to maintain a modul=
e, then the module in RFC8366(-bis) is obsolete. Trouble is,=A0that the res=
t of the RFC - if any - is not.=A0 (You may have seen this on the DHCP list=
 with I-D referencing an RFC when they should have been referencing the IAN=
A website)=A0=A0 RFC7224 gets it right because the contents are only the in=
itial version of the IANA module so that (almost) any reference to RFC7224 =
is an error, the reference should be to the IANA website.=A0 That says that=
 having long-lived text in an RFC with the initial version of an IANA-maint=
ained module can only cause confusion (IMHO); they are clearer as separate =
RFC.=0A=
=0A=
Again a quote that caught my eye,=0A=
"I also think that in our enumeration/Registry, that we should include the=
=0A=
"value" parameter, so that constrained-voucher can consistently set values=
=0A=
even if the enumeration changes order."=0A=
If by 'value' that means the value substatement of the 'enum' YANG statemen=
t, then that may not give you what you expect.=A0 What goes on the wire is =
the text name string.=A0 If a number is displayed to a user, then it is bec=
ause the local software had deduced one, perhaps from a YANG module.=A0 The=
 text string is the authoritative definition, the value conveys nothing.=A0=
 If you want a value, then you need a different type of leaf like an intege=
r.=A0 (In other languages, the binding of text string to value is part of t=
he specification of an enumeration - not in YANG).=0A=
=0A=
The usual alternative to a YANG enum is identity which can also be in an IA=
NA-maintained module but which can be augmented.  It is just an identifier =
(which to me is more honest than an enum with its 'value' substatement:-). =
 It is referenced by identityref. (It can also form a tree structure).  AFA=
ICT 'leaf assertion' in RFC8366 could equally well be an identityref. and t=
hen later RFC could augment the identity.=0A=
=0A=
So I have reservations about enum and about IANA-maintained modules (at lea=
st as part of a larger RFC:-) but I did note when I looked at=0A=
draft-ietf-anima-voucher =0A=
that one of the authors was a YANG doctor so assumed that the choice of 'en=
um was made knowingly.=0A=
=0A=
Tom Petch=0A=
=0A=
--=0A=
=0A=
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=F8T consulting =
)=0A=
=0A=
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=


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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>, "anima\@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "netmod\@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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Tom writes:
    > If by 'value' that means the value substatement of the 'enum' YANG
    > statement, then that may not give you what you expect.=C2=A0 What goe=
s on
    > the wire is the text name string.=C2=A0 If a number is displayed to a=
 user,
    > then it is because the local software had deduced one, perhaps from a
    > YANG module.=C2=A0 The text string is the authoritative definition, t=
he
    > value conveys nothing.=C2=A0 If you want a value, then you need a dif=
ferent
    > type of leaf like an integer.=C2=A0 (In other languages, the binding =
of text
    > string to value is part of the specification of an enumeration - not =
in
    > YANG).

yes, it's a text string for XML and JSON,
this isn't the case for YANG-CBOR if a value is set.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
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           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide

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From: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu>
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Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 10:29:20 -0700
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Subject: Re: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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Hi -

On 2021-07-05 9:13 AM, tom petch wrote:
...
> Well my answer would be that confusion reigns.Â  An IANA Registry is > authoritative so the minute the RFC is published asking IANA to
> maintain a module, then the module in RFC8366(-bis) is obsolete.
> Trouble is,Â that the rest of the RFC - if any - is not.
...

There are other straightforward ways to deal with this.

In ltru the I-Ds contained both material for publication
in the RFC as well as a *massive* amount of material for
population of the IANA language tag registry.  We needed
it in I-D form for review during development, but wanted to
remove all temptation to use the RFC instead of the IANA
registry.

All it took was a word of instruction to the RFC editor
to delete the many many many pages of registry content
upon publication.  Worked fine.

In this case, just tell the RFC editor to delete the
IANA-maintained module.

Randy


From nobody Mon Jul  5 13:41:03 2021
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Subject: Re: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:
    > In ltru the I-Ds contained both material for publication
    > in the RFC as well as a *massive* amount of material for
    > population of the IANA language tag registry.  We needed
    > it in I-D form for review during development, but wanted to
    > remove all temptation to use the RFC instead of the IANA
    > registry.

    > All it took was a word of instruction to the RFC editor
    > to delete the many many many pages of registry content
    > upon publication.  Worked fine.

    > In this case, just tell the RFC editor to delete the
    > IANA-maintained module.

I think you mean, the RFC-maintained module :-)
How do we keep the YANG catalog from latching onto it.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide

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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/s2YI47T0D8u3gQEv3VfGAuMkRiM>
Subject: Re: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Michael Richardson <mcr=
+ietf@sandelman.ca>=0A=
Sent: 05 July 2021 21:40=0A=
=0A=
Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:=0A=
    > In ltru the I-Ds contained both material for publication=0A=
    > in the RFC as well as a *massive* amount of material for=0A=
    > population of the IANA language tag registry.  We needed=0A=
    > it in I-D form for review during development, but wanted to=0A=
    > remove all temptation to use the RFC instead of the IANA=0A=
    > registry.=0A=
=0A=
    > All it took was a word of instruction to the RFC editor=0A=
    > to delete the many many many pages of registry content=0A=
    > upon publication.  Worked fine.=0A=
=0A=
    > In this case, just tell the RFC editor to delete the=0A=
    > IANA-maintained module.=0A=
=0A=
I think you mean, the RFC-maintained module :-)=0A=
How do we keep the YANG catalog from latching onto it.=0A=
=0A=
<tp>=0A=
I do not know the answer to YANG Catalog but I do think that Randy has the =
right words.  I take it to mean delete the initial version of the IANA-main=
tained module from the published RFC.  MMM, I never thought of that.  On th=
e other hand, it does break the audit trail, of where did the information i=
n IANA come from if the RFC no longer contains it.  On balance, I prefer a =
separate RFC for just the IANA-maintained module.=0A=
=0A=
More generally, IANA-maintained modules do have consequences.  I see change=
 control as then residing with IANA so all changes have to go through IANA =
and at present, I only see IANA making changes to enum or identity.  The mo=
dule in  RFC8366 contains more than that and if other parts of the YANG nee=
d changing, I do not know if IANA would be comfortable with making those ch=
anges or not.  I have not seen the change control ever reverting from IANA =
back to the IETF although that is probably possible, in order to make such =
changes.=0A=
=0A=
One solution is a separate module of just enum maintained by IANA with the =
rest of the YANG in rfc8366bis importing that module.  But AFAICT such a ch=
ange would require a change of module name which then ripples through all t=
hose using the module unless RFC7950 s.11 allows such a solution based on s=
ubmodules - I am unsure.  Changing the module name does open up many possib=
ilities but I am do not know if that is acceptable.=0A=
=0A=
Tom Petch=0A=
=0A=
--=0A=
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=F8T consulting =
)=0A=
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide=0A=


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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/k0KuE-beZmM_mPSdE_-pjJClVyI>
Subject: Re: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Michael Richardson <mcr=
+ietf@sandelman.ca>=0A=
Sent: 05 July 2021 21:40=0A=
=0A=
Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:=0A=
    > In ltru the I-Ds contained both material for publication=0A=
    > in the RFC as well as a *massive* amount of material for=0A=
    > population of the IANA language tag registry.  We needed=0A=
    > it in I-D form for review during development, but wanted to=0A=
    > remove all temptation to use the RFC instead of the IANA=0A=
    > registry.=0A=
=0A=
    > All it took was a word of instruction to the RFC editor=0A=
    > to delete the many many many pages of registry content=0A=
    > upon publication.  Worked fine.=0A=
=0A=
    > In this case, just tell the RFC editor to delete the=0A=
    > IANA-maintained module.=0A=
=0A=
I think you mean, the RFC-maintained module :-)=0A=
How do we keep the YANG catalog from latching onto it.=0A=
=0A=
<tp>=0A=
I do not know the answer to YANG Catalog but I do think that Randy has the =
right words.  I take it to mean delete the initial version of the IANA-main=
tained module from the published RFC.  MMM, I never thought of that.  On th=
e other hand, it does break the audit trail, of where did the information i=
n IANA come from if the RFC no longer contains it.  On balance, I prefer a =
separate RFC for just the IANA-maintained module.=0A=
=0A=
More generally, IANA-maintained modules do have consequences.  I see change=
 control as then residing with IANA so all changes have to go through IANA =
and at present, I only see IANA making changes to enum or identity.  The mo=
dule in  RFC8366 contains more than that and if other parts of the YANG nee=
d changing, I do not know if IANA would be comfortable with making those ch=
anges or not.  I have not seen the change control ever reverting from IANA =
back to the IETF although that is probably possible, in order to make such =
changes.=0A=
=0A=
One solution is a separate module of just enum maintained by IANA with the =
rest of the YANG in rfc8366bis importing that module.  But AFAICT such a ch=
ange would require a change of module name which then ripples through all t=
hose using the module unless RFC7950 s.11 allows such a solution based on s=
ubmodules - I am unsure.  Changing the module name does open up many possib=
ilities but I am do not know if that is acceptable.=0A=
=0A=
Tom Petch=0A=
=0A=
--=0A=
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=F8T consulting =
)=0A=
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide=0A=


From nobody Tue Jul  6 06:39:50 2021
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Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-versioning-reqs-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Module Versioning Requirements
        Author          : Joe Clarke
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-versioning-reqs-05.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2021-07-06

Abstract:
   This document describes the problems that can arise because of the
   YANG language module update rules, that require all updates to YANG
   module preserve strict backwards compatibility.  It also defines the
   requirements on any solution designed to solve the stated problems.
   This document does not consider possible solutions, nor endorse any
   particular solution.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-versioning-reqs/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-versioning-reqs-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-yang-versioning-reqs-05


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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Subject: Re: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-versioning-reqs-05.txt
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The only change here is a revision bump to keep the draft alive as work=0A=
continues on the overall solution documents.=0A=
=0A=
Joe=0A=
=0A=
On 7/6/21 09:40, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:=0A=
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.=0A=
> This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.=0A=
>=0A=
>         Title           : YANG Module Versioning Requirements=0A=
>         Author          : Joe Clarke=0A=
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-versioning-reqs-05.txt=0A=
> 	Pages           : 12=0A=
> 	Date            : 2021-07-06=0A=
>=0A=
> Abstract:=0A=
>    This document describes the problems that can arise because of the=0A=
>    YANG language module update rules, that require all updates to YANG=0A=
>    module preserve strict backwards compatibility.  It also defines the=
=0A=
>    requirements on any solution designed to solve the stated problems.=0A=
>    This document does not consider possible solutions, nor endorse any=0A=
>    particular solution.=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:=0A=
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-versioning-reqs/=
=0A=
>=0A=
> There is also an htmlized version available at:=0A=
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-versioning-r=
eqs-05=0A=
>=0A=
> A diff from the previous version is available at:=0A=
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-yang-versioning-req=
s-05=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:=0A=
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>=0A=
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To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>, "'netmod@ietf.org'" <netmod@ietf.org>, "andy@yumaworks.com" <andy@yumaworks.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hi Balazs,

To follow up with our conversation earlier.  Andy and Juergen explicitly co=
pied because they may have previously commented on these issues during WG L=
C.

I think that my comment regarding the "feature statement" and the flexibili=
ty of the inline-method are closely related.  I find the definition of the =
inline-content-schema to be so generic that it effectively allows anything.=
  E.g., the drafts would allow me to publish a file that has an inline-cont=
ent-schema based on robs-random-schema-format@1.0.0, and it would be very d=
ifficult for consumers of the associated instance data file to understand t=
he file schema.

Similarly, I find that allowing revision labels (as examples to avoid a nor=
mative reference to the module versioning draft), makes it hard for a gener=
ic implementation reader of a instance data file to know how to interpret a=
n inline schema.  I suspect that this issue could cause problems in the IES=
G reviews.

Hence, my preference, for this RFC, that defines version 1 of the instance =
file format, would be to more heavily constrain how the schema is allowed t=
o be specified in the inline-method.  Specifically, I think that it would b=
e better to:
 - restrict the inline schema to only be defined using ietf-yang-library@20=
19-01-04
 - only allow revision-dates, not revision labels.

I would like to understand from Andy, whether he still thinks with these re=
strictions whether the inline-schema method should still be under a YANG fe=
ature statement?

If/when the revision labels draft gets standardized, and perhaps also after=
 YANG packages, then we could do a bis version of this document to define a=
 v2 of the instance file format that potentially allows YANG packages to be=
 used to define the schema, and potentially allows modules to be identified=
 using revision labels as well as revision dates.

Balazs, I'm good with most of your proposed resolutions, but have answered =
one further question inline below.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> Sent: 05 July 2021 13:47
> To: 'netmod@ietf.org' <netmod@ietf.org>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> <rwilton@cisco.com>
> Cc: Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: FW: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> Hello Rob,
> Thanks for the review.  Here are my answers below. I will also upload the
> new version asap.
> Regards Balazs
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Hi,
>=20
> Here is my AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-13.
>=20
> Thanks for this document, I think that it represents important useful wor=
k
> for advancing the YANG ecosystem.
>=20
> This document is in good shape, and I mostly have minor comments but with
> a
> few more significant comments.
>=20
> Main comments:
>=20

>=20
> 2.
> In the YANG Module:
>      feature inline-content-schema {
>        description
>          "This feature indicates that inline content-schema
>           option is supported. Support for this feature might
>           be documented only via out-of-band documentation.";
>      }
>=20
> What is the benefit of having 'inline-content-schema' as a feature?  It
> seems to potentially add complexity without any benefit, given that the
> device originating the instance data file would effectively choose whethe=
r
> to use the inline-content-schema, hence I suggest that it might be simple=
r
> just to remove the feature definition.
> BALAZS: This was explicitly requested earlier by a reviewer (Andy ?).
> The system can declare supported/not-supported in design documentation.
> In a use-case when a client or a design department is sending data to a
> server this is needed. E.g. in UC2, Preloading Default Configuration the
> designer preparing instance data, can decide to use or not use the
> inline-content-schema based on this.


>=20
> 3.
> In the YANG Module:
>=20
> 	"case inline", description:
>                     The first item is either ietf-yang-library or
>                     some other YANG module that contains a list of
>                     YANG modules with their name, revision-date,
>                     supported-features, and deviations.
>                     The usage of revision '2019-01-04' of the
>                     'ietf-yang-library' module MUST be supported.
>                     Using other modules, module versions MAY also
>                     be supported.
>=20
> This seems to make interop for consumers of instance data files hard, sin=
ce
> the schema can be defined by any arbitrary YANG module without updating
> this
> module.  I would suggest that it is safer to limit this to the two curren=
tly
> published versions of YANG library.
> BALAZS:  I fully agree, however this was explicitly requested by some
> reviewer earlier (Juergen ?) Shall I simplify this or not?
>=20
> If additional modules are supported in future, then I think that it would=
 be
> safer to create a new version of this YANG module that documents what
> other
> module formats can be used.
>=20
>=20
> 4.
> In the YANG Module:
> 	list "revision"
>=20
> Is revision expected to be unique, if provided? If so, should this be
> explicitly stated in the YANG module description?
> BALAZS: I don't think I understand your comment. There may be multiple li=
st
> entries for revision. The 'leaf date' is a key, so it is inherently uniqu=
e.
> The description may or may not be unique.

I would suggest changing:

For every published editorial change, a new one SHOULD be added
 in front of the revisions sequence so that all

to:

For every published editorial change, a new unique revision SHOULD
be added in front of the revisions sequence so that all

I.e., to also make it clear in the description that revisions dates are req=
uired to be unique.


>=20
>=20
> 5.
> In the YANG Module:
>=20
> Is an instance-data file allowed to contain both a revision and also a
> timestamp?  If so, is there any constraints on the values.  If not, then
> would it make sense to put them under a choice?
> BALAZS:  It is allowed to have both. There is some recommendation text
> about
> when to use each. However I can see some corner cases, when using both in
> the same file would be useful, E.g. we want a timestamp including hour,
> minutes, but we also want the history of the instance data set, including
> multible revision/descriptions.
> I propose to add: if both are included the timestamp, SHOULD contain
> the same date as the latest revision statement.

Okay.

Thanks,
Rob


From nobody Tue Jul  6 09:43:01 2021
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 09:42:39 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHQp25fYE3=Q7kcGrkp7Xud6hsYF0AFW0E6jekPmqeTpSA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>,  "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>,  Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,  Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 8:14 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Hi Balazs,
>
> To follow up with our conversation earlier.  Andy and Juergen explicitly
> copied because they may have previously commented on these issues during =
WG
> LC.
>
> I think that my comment regarding the "feature statement" and the
> flexibility of the inline-method are closely related.  I find the
> definition of the inline-content-schema to be so generic that it
> effectively allows anything.  E.g., the drafts would allow me to publish =
a
> file that has an inline-content-schema based on
> robs-random-schema-format@1.0.0, and it would be very difficult for
> consumers of the associated instance data file to understand the file
> schema.
>
> Similarly, I find that allowing revision labels (as examples to avoid a
> normative reference to the module versioning draft), makes it hard for a
> generic implementation reader of a instance data file to know how to
> interpret an inline schema.  I suspect that this issue could cause proble=
ms
> in the IESG reviews.
>
> Hence, my preference, for this RFC, that defines version 1 of the instanc=
e
> file format, would be to more heavily constrain how the schema is allowed
> to be specified in the inline-method.  Specifically, I think that it woul=
d
> be better to:
>  - restrict the inline schema to only be defined using
> ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04
>  - only allow revision-dates, not revision labels.
>
> I would like to understand from Andy, whether he still thinks with these
> restrictions whether the inline-schema method should still be under a YAN=
G
> feature statement?
>


I do not remember asking for this feature statement.
Who is the client and who is the server, for a YANG instance file, sitting
on a hard drive?

IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but that
is what the WG wants.  It seems obvious that any reader of the file
has to implement all 4 methods and any writer of the file is free to pick
just one.
So the feature does not really help.


Andy


> If/when the revision labels draft gets standardized, and perhaps also
> after YANG packages, then we could do a bis version of this document to
> define a v2 of the instance file format that potentially allows YANG
> packages to be used to define the schema, and potentially allows modules =
to
> be identified using revision labels as well as revision dates.
>
> Balazs, I'm good with most of your proposed resolutions, but have answere=
d
> one further question inline below.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> > Sent: 05 July 2021 13:47
> > To: 'netmod@ietf.org' <netmod@ietf.org>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> > <rwilton@cisco.com>
> > Cc: Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > Subject: FW: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> >
> > Hello Rob,
> > Thanks for the review.  Here are my answers below. I will also upload t=
he
> > new version asap.
> > Regards Balazs
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > Hi,
> >
> > Here is my AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-13.
> >
> > Thanks for this document, I think that it represents important useful
> work
> > for advancing the YANG ecosystem.
> >
> > This document is in good shape, and I mostly have minor comments but wi=
th
> > a
> > few more significant comments.
> >
> > Main comments:
> >
>
> >
> > 2.
> > In the YANG Module:
> >      feature inline-content-schema {
> >        description
> >          "This feature indicates that inline content-schema
> >           option is supported. Support for this feature might
> >           be documented only via out-of-band documentation.";
> >      }
> >
> > What is the benefit of having 'inline-content-schema' as a feature?  It
> > seems to potentially add complexity without any benefit, given that the
> > device originating the instance data file would effectively choose
> whether
> > to use the inline-content-schema, hence I suggest that it might be
> simpler
> > just to remove the feature definition.
> > BALAZS: This was explicitly requested earlier by a reviewer (Andy ?).
> > The system can declare supported/not-supported in design documentation.
> > In a use-case when a client or a design department is sending data to a
> > server this is needed. E.g. in UC2, Preloading Default Configuration th=
e
> > designer preparing instance data, can decide to use or not use the
> > inline-content-schema based on this.
>
>
> >
> > 3.
> > In the YANG Module:
> >
> >       "case inline", description:
> >                     The first item is either ietf-yang-library or
> >                     some other YANG module that contains a list of
> >                     YANG modules with their name, revision-date,
> >                     supported-features, and deviations.
> >                     The usage of revision '2019-01-04' of the
> >                     'ietf-yang-library' module MUST be supported.
> >                     Using other modules, module versions MAY also
> >                     be supported.
> >
> > This seems to make interop for consumers of instance data files hard,
> since
> > the schema can be defined by any arbitrary YANG module without updating
> > this
> > module.  I would suggest that it is safer to limit this to the two
> currently
> > published versions of YANG library.
> > BALAZS:  I fully agree, however this was explicitly requested by some
> > reviewer earlier (Juergen ?) Shall I simplify this or not?
> >
> > If additional modules are supported in future, then I think that it
> would be
> > safer to create a new version of this YANG module that documents what
> > other
> > module formats can be used.
> >
> >
> > 4.
> > In the YANG Module:
> >       list "revision"
> >
> > Is revision expected to be unique, if provided? If so, should this be
> > explicitly stated in the YANG module description?
> > BALAZS: I don't think I understand your comment. There may be multiple
> list
> > entries for revision. The 'leaf date' is a key, so it is inherently
> unique.
> > The description may or may not be unique.
>
> I would suggest changing:
>
> For every published editorial change, a new one SHOULD be added
>  in front of the revisions sequence so that all
>
> to:
>
> For every published editorial change, a new unique revision SHOULD
> be added in front of the revisions sequence so that all
>
> I.e., to also make it clear in the description that revisions dates are
> required to be unique.
>
>
> >
> >
> > 5.
> > In the YANG Module:
> >
> > Is an instance-data file allowed to contain both a revision and also a
> > timestamp?  If so, is there any constraints on the values.  If not, the=
n
> > would it make sense to put them under a choice?
> > BALAZS:  It is allowed to have both. There is some recommendation text
> > about
> > when to use each. However I can see some corner cases, when using both =
in
> > the same file would be useful, E.g. we want a timestamp including hour,
> > minutes, but we also want the history of the instance data set, includi=
ng
> > multible revision/descriptions.
> > I propose to add: if both are included the timestamp, SHOULD contain
> > the same date as the latest revision statement.
>
> Okay.
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
>
>

--000000000000d39d2005c6771c6f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 8:14 AM Rob Wi=
lton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi=
 Balazs,<br>
<br>
To follow up with our conversation earlier.=C2=A0 Andy and Juergen explicit=
ly copied because they may have previously commented on these issues during=
 WG LC.<br>
<br>
I think that my comment regarding the &quot;feature statement&quot; and the=
 flexibility of the inline-method are closely related.=C2=A0 I find the def=
inition of the inline-content-schema to be so generic that it effectively a=
llows anything.=C2=A0 E.g., the drafts would allow me to publish a file tha=
t has an inline-content-schema based on robs-random-schema-format@1.0.0, an=
d it would be very difficult for consumers of the associated instance data =
file to understand the file schema.<br>
<br>
Similarly, I find that allowing revision labels (as examples to avoid a nor=
mative reference to the module versioning draft), makes it hard for a gener=
ic implementation reader of a instance data file to know how to interpret a=
n inline schema.=C2=A0 I suspect that this issue could cause problems in th=
e IESG reviews.<br>
<br>
Hence, my preference, for this RFC, that defines version 1 of the instance =
file format, would be to more heavily constrain how the schema is allowed t=
o be specified in the inline-method.=C2=A0 Specifically, I think that it wo=
uld be better to:<br>
=C2=A0- restrict the inline schema to only be defined using ietf-yang-libra=
ry@2019-01-04<br>
=C2=A0- only allow revision-dates, not revision labels.<br>
<br>
I would like to understand from Andy, whether he still thinks with these re=
strictions whether the inline-schema method should still be under a YANG fe=
ature statement?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I do no=
t remember asking for this feature statement.</div><div>Who is the client a=
nd who is the server, for a YANG instance file, sitting on a hard drive?</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3=
 too many, but that</div><div>is what the WG wants.=C2=A0 It seems obvious =
that any reader of the file</div><div>has to implement all 4 methods and an=
y writer of the file is free to pick just one.</div><div>So the feature doe=
s not really help.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div><=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
If/when the revision labels draft gets standardized, and perhaps also after=
 YANG packages, then we could do a bis version of this document to define a=
 v2 of the instance file format that potentially allows YANG packages to be=
 used to define the schema, and potentially allows modules to be identified=
 using revision labels as well as revision dates.<br>
<br>
Balazs, I&#39;m good with most of your proposed resolutions, but have answe=
red one further question inline below.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsso=
n.com" target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: 05 July 2021 13:47<br>
&gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@i=
etf.org</a>&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">n=
etmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilton)<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cis=
co.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: FW: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hello Rob,<br>
&gt; Thanks for the review.=C2=A0 Here are my answers below. I will also up=
load the<br>
&gt; new version asap.<br>
&gt; Regards Balazs<br>
&gt; -----------------------------------------------------------<br>
&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Here is my AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-13=
.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks for this document, I think that it represents important useful =
work<br>
&gt; for advancing the YANG ecosystem.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This document is in good shape, and I mostly have minor comments but w=
ith<br>
&gt; a<br>
&gt; few more significant comments.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Main comments:<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 2.<br>
&gt; In the YANG Module:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 feature inline-content-schema {<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;This feature indicates that in=
line content-schema<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0option is supported. Support f=
or this feature might<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be documented only via out-of-=
band documentation.&quot;;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; What is the benefit of having &#39;inline-content-schema&#39; as a fea=
ture?=C2=A0 It<br>
&gt; seems to potentially add complexity without any benefit, given that th=
e<br>
&gt; device originating the instance data file would effectively choose whe=
ther<br>
&gt; to use the inline-content-schema, hence I suggest that it might be sim=
pler<br>
&gt; just to remove the feature definition.<br>
&gt; BALAZS: This was explicitly requested earlier by a reviewer (Andy ?).<=
br>
&gt; The system can declare supported/not-supported in design documentation=
.<br>
&gt; In a use-case when a client or a design department is sending data to =
a<br>
&gt; server this is needed. E.g. in UC2, Preloading Default Configuration t=
he<br>
&gt; designer preparing instance data, can decide to use or not use the<br>
&gt; inline-content-schema based on this.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 3.<br>
&gt; In the YANG Module:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;case inline&quot;, description:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0The first item is either ietf-yang-library or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0some other YANG module that contains a list of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0YANG modules with their name, revision-date,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0supported-features, and deviations.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0The usage of revision &#39;2019-01-04&#39; of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&#39;ietf-yang-library&#39; module MUST be supported.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Using other modules, module versions MAY also<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0be supported.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This seems to make interop for consumers of instance data files hard, =
since<br>
&gt; the schema can be defined by any arbitrary YANG module without updatin=
g<br>
&gt; this<br>
&gt; module.=C2=A0 I would suggest that it is safer to limit this to the tw=
o currently<br>
&gt; published versions of YANG library.<br>
&gt; BALAZS:=C2=A0 I fully agree, however this was explicitly requested by =
some<br>
&gt; reviewer earlier (Juergen ?) Shall I simplify this or not?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If additional modules are supported in future, then I think that it wo=
uld be<br>
&gt; safer to create a new version of this YANG module that documents what<=
br>
&gt; other<br>
&gt; module formats can be used.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 4.<br>
&gt; In the YANG Module:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0list &quot;revision&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Is revision expected to be unique, if provided? If so, should this be<=
br>
&gt; explicitly stated in the YANG module description?<br>
&gt; BALAZS: I don&#39;t think I understand your comment. There may be mult=
iple list<br>
&gt; entries for revision. The &#39;leaf date&#39; is a key, so it is inher=
ently unique.<br>
&gt; The description may or may not be unique.<br>
<br>
I would suggest changing:<br>
<br>
For every published editorial change, a new one SHOULD be added<br>
=C2=A0in front of the revisions sequence so that all<br>
<br>
to:<br>
<br>
For every published editorial change, a new unique revision SHOULD<br>
be added in front of the revisions sequence so that all<br>
<br>
I.e., to also make it clear in the description that revisions dates are req=
uired to be unique.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 5.<br>
&gt; In the YANG Module:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Is an instance-data file allowed to contain both a revision and also a=
<br>
&gt; timestamp?=C2=A0 If so, is there any constraints on the values.=C2=A0 =
If not, then<br>
&gt; would it make sense to put them under a choice?<br>
&gt; BALAZS:=C2=A0 It is allowed to have both. There is some recommendation=
 text<br>
&gt; about<br>
&gt; when to use each. However I can see some corner cases, when using both=
 in<br>
&gt; the same file would be useful, E.g. we want a timestamp including hour=
,<br>
&gt; minutes, but we also want the history of the instance data set, includ=
ing<br>
&gt; multible revision/descriptions.<br>
&gt; I propose to add: if both are included the timestamp, SHOULD contain<b=
r>
&gt; the same date as the latest revision statement.<br>
<br>
Okay.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Rob<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000d39d2005c6771c6f--


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To: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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From: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] [Anima] revising RFC8366 -- Re: BRSKI-AE enum issue -> empty, but what's he encoding ?
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Hi -

> From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
> Sent: 05 July 2021 21:40
> 
> Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:
>      > In ltru the I-Ds contained both material for publication
>      > in the RFC as well as a *massive* amount of material for
>      > population of the IANA language tag registry.  We needed
>      > it in I-D form for review during development, but wanted to
>      > remove all temptation to use the RFC instead of the IANA
>      > registry.
> 
>      > All it took was a word of instruction to the RFC editor
>      > to delete the many many many pages of registry content
>      > upon publication.  Worked fine.
> 
>      > In this case, just tell the RFC editor to delete the
>      > IANA-maintained module.
> 
> I think you mean, the RFC-maintained module :-)
> How do we keep the YANG catalog from latching onto it.

No.  The to-be-maintainted-by-IANA module appearing in an I-D would
never appear in the published RFC text.

Randy


From nobody Tue Jul  6 10:42:21 2021
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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/EEE8uFcw7BeFTxQc5InRAJmzlOQ>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> 
> IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but that
> is what the WG wants.  It seems obvious that any reader of the file
> has to implement all 4 methods and any writer of the file is free to pick
> just one.
> So the feature does not really help.
>

The feature statements declare that implementation won't work
together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoperability (and
implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fine if implementations
declare that they won't work together. Well, still slightly better
than having implementations fail arbitrarity.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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In-Reply-To: <20210706174208.4birungsifwtiryq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de>
From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 10:56:48 -0700
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To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>,  "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>,  "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/QFAdFTcBaolsYvwSjGOm3wPedBw>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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--0000000000000225e005c6782667
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder <
j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> >
> > IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but that
> > is what the WG wants.  It seems obvious that any reader of the file
> > has to implement all 4 methods and any writer of the file is free to pick
> > just one.
> > So the feature does not really help.
> >
>
> The feature statements declare that implementation won't work
> together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoperability (and
> implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fine if implementations
> declare that they won't work together. Well, still slightly better
> than having implementations fail arbitrarity.
>
>

This is a text file stored on a USB stick.
There is no client or server. Just readers and writers.
So how does a YANG feature work here?
The reader is supposed to know how to find out if this feature is set
before opening the file?

I don't see how server capabilities discovery is relevant to a
YANG instance file.
The reader code will simply attempt to read the file and fail if it
encounters
a format that is not implemented.


/js
>

Andy


>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>

--0000000000000225e005c6782667
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:42 AM Juerg=
en Schoenwaelder &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de=
">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0=
700, Andy Bierman wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but tha=
t<br>
&gt; is what the WG wants.=C2=A0 It seems obvious that any reader of the fi=
le<br>
&gt; has to implement all 4 methods and any writer of the file is free to p=
ick<br>
&gt; just one.<br>
&gt; So the feature does not really help.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
The feature statements declare that implementation won&#39;t work<br>
together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoperability (and<br>
implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fine if implementations<br>
declare that they won&#39;t work together. Well, still slightly better<br>
than having implementations fail arbitrarity.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>This is a text file sto=
red on a USB stick.</div><div>There is no client or server. Just readers an=
d writers.</div><div>So how does a YANG feature work here?</div><div>The re=
ader is supposed to know how to find out if this feature is set</div><div>b=
efore opening the file?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t see how =
server capabilities discovery is relevant to a YANG=C2=A0instance file.</di=
v><div>The reader code will simply attempt to read the file and fail if it =
encounters</div><div>a format that is not implemented.</div><div><br></div>=
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
/js<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- <br>
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer=
sity Bremen gGmbH<br>
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28=
759 Bremen | Germany<br>
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"https://www.jacobs-university.de/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000000225e005c6782667--


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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 20:19:33 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs?= Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/JlAAfVrL2mzYYaBeIpXPq-bJiuE>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > >
> > > IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but that
> > > is what the WG wants.  It seems obvious that any reader of the file
> > > has to implement all 4 methods and any writer of the file is free to pick
> > > just one.
> > > So the feature does not really help.
> > >
> >
> > The feature statements declare that implementation won't work
> > together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoperability (and
> > implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fine if implementations
> > declare that they won't work together. Well, still slightly better
> > than having implementations fail arbitrarity.
> >
> >
> 
> This is a text file stored on a USB stick.
> There is no client or server. Just readers and writers.
> So how does a YANG feature work here?
> The reader is supposed to know how to find out if this feature is set
> before opening the file?
>
> I don't see how server capabilities discovery is relevant to a
> YANG instance file.
> The reader code will simply attempt to read the file and fail if it
> encounters
> a format that is not implemented.

I assumed that the features are carried in the instance file, i.e.,
the file declares that it uses way X to announce the schema and then
the parser can fail with a suitable error message. If the features are
not carried in the file, then they indeed seem to be useless.

Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce the features of the
instance file as well, I did not check. ;-)

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 12:28:08 -0700
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To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>,  "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>,  "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder <
j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but
> that
> > > > is what the WG wants.  It seems obvious that any reader of the file
> > > > has to implement all 4 methods and any writer of the file is free to
> pick
> > > > just one.
> > > > So the feature does not really help.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The feature statements declare that implementation won't work
> > > together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoperability (and
> > > implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fine if implementations
> > > declare that they won't work together. Well, still slightly better
> > > than having implementations fail arbitrarity.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > This is a text file stored on a USB stick.
> > There is no client or server. Just readers and writers.
> > So how does a YANG feature work here?
> > The reader is supposed to know how to find out if this feature is set
> > before opening the file?
> >
> > I don't see how server capabilities discovery is relevant to a
> > YANG instance file.
> > The reader code will simply attempt to read the file and fail if it
> > encounters
> > a format that is not implemented.
>
> I assumed that the features are carried in the instance file, i.e.,
> the file declares that it uses way X to announce the schema and then
> the parser can fail with a suitable error message. If the features are
> not carried in the file, then they indeed seem to be useless.
>
> Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce the features of the
> instance file as well, I did not check. ;-)
>
>
Now you made re-read the entire draft :-(
I cannot find any text how the reader knows if this feature is set before
reading the
file and finding out.

I do not see any significant use-case for the Inline method and none for
the Uri method.
Nor do I see any reason why the Simplified-Inline method should not be
mandatory
to use and always present.

If the use-case is offline server validation then the YANG library details
need to be known.
The entire YANG library for the server (or relevant parts) are recorded in
the Inline method.
Except it is complicated to store the info about how to interpret YANG
schema by
reading instance files and guessing what the "anydata" contains.

I actually prefer a simple string based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it can
be easily integrated into the Simplified Inline form and can be parsed
without guessing
anything about the contents of anydata.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4

e,g,

OLD:
         case simplified-inline {
               leaf-list module {
                  type module-with-revision-date;
                  ...
                }
          }

NEW:

         case simplified-inline {
               leaf-list module {
                  type union {
                       type module-with-revision-date;
                       type string;
                   }
                   ...
                }
          }

Example module leaf-list entry:


 ietf-interfaces?revision=2018-02-20&features=if-mib,arbitrary-names&deviations=acme-deviations


IMO Simplified Inline SHOULD be the only format, and the other methods can
be removed.


/js
>


Andy



>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juerg=
en Schoenwaelder &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de=
">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 10:56:48AM -0=
700, Andy Bierman wrote:<br>
&gt; On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_bla=
nk">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too man=
y, but that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; is what the WG wants.=C2=A0 It seems obvious that any reader=
 of the file<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; has to implement all 4 methods and any writer of the file is=
 free to pick<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; just one.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; So the feature does not really help.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The feature statements declare that implementation won&#39;t work=
<br>
&gt; &gt; together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoperability =
(and<br>
&gt; &gt; implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fine if implementat=
ions<br>
&gt; &gt; declare that they won&#39;t work together. Well, still slightly b=
etter<br>
&gt; &gt; than having implementations fail arbitrarity.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This is a text file stored on a USB stick.<br>
&gt; There is no client or server. Just readers and writers.<br>
&gt; So how does a YANG feature work here?<br>
&gt; The reader is supposed to know how to find out if this feature is set<=
br>
&gt; before opening the file?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t see how server capabilities discovery is relevant to a<br>
&gt; YANG instance file.<br>
&gt; The reader code will simply attempt to read the file and fail if it<br=
>
&gt; encounters<br>
&gt; a format that is not implemented.<br>
<br>
I assumed that the features are carried in the instance file, i.e.,<br>
the file declares that it uses way X to announce the schema and then<br>
the parser can fail with a suitable error message. If the features are<br>
not carried in the file, then they indeed seem to be useless.<br>
<br>
Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce the features of the<br>
instance file as well, I did not check. ;-)<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Now you made re-read the entire draft =
:-(</div><div>I cannot find any text how the reader knows if this feature i=
s set before reading the</div><div>file and finding out.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>I do not see any significant use-case for the Inline method and none=
 for the Uri method.</div><div>Nor do I see any reason why the Simplified-I=
nline method should not be mandatory</div><div>to use and always present.</=
div><div><br></div><div>If the use-case is offline server validation then t=
he YANG library details need to be known.</div><div>The entire YANG library=
 for the server (or relevant parts) are recorded in the Inline method.</div=
><div>Except it is complicated to store the info about how to interpret YAN=
G schema by</div><div>reading instance files and guessing what the &quot;an=
ydata&quot; contains.</div><div><br></div><div>I actually prefer a simple s=
tring based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it can</div><div>be easily integr=
ated into the Simplified Inline form and can be parsed without guessing</di=
v><div>anything about the contents of anydata.</div><div><br></div><div><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4">https:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4</a><br></div><div><br=
></div><div>e,g,</div><div><br></div><div>OLD:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0case simplified-inline {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf-list module {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type module-with-revision-date;<br><=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ..=
.</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</div>=
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</div><div><br></div><div>NEW:</di=
v><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0case simplifie=
d-inline {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf-l=
ist module {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 type union {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type module-with-revision-date;<br></div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type string;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 }</div></div><div><br></div><div>Example module leaf-list entry:</di=
v><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ietf-interfaces?revision=
=3D2018-02-20&amp;features=3Dif-mib,arbitrary-names&amp;deviations=3Dacme-d=
eviations</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>IMO Simplified Inline SHO=
ULD be the only format, and the other methods can be removed.</div><div><br=
></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
/js<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div><br><=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- <br>
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer=
sity Bremen gGmbH<br>
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28=
759 Bremen | Germany<br>
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"https://www.jacobs-university.de/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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Subject: [netmod] Erik Kline's No Objection on draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: (with COMMENT)
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Erik Kline has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[S5] [question]

* In the output yang-patch response when differences are present, is it
  theoretically possible that 'create' or 'insert' operations will need
  to be represented?  If not, why not?

[S{7,9}] [observation]

* The last paragraph of Section 9 and the whole of Section 7 seem to be
  saying the same things?  Perhaps consider if it's better to just say
  them once in Section 9 or say everything in Section 7 and just have
  the last paragraph of Section 9 say, in effect, "see also Section 7".




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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/V0XV2ArkzqO80fkJFPS62UpLBE8>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hello Rob,
I would be happy to simplify the draft. Just we are restarting debates =
which
were settled earlier. This can lead to a never-ending cycle.

So, I propose to:
- remove all mention of the revision-label
- remove the feature
- for the inline method allow just ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as a
_single_ file. This also means that I should remove the leaf =
inline-module
as there is no need for it anymore. We know the single YANG module it =
would
define.
Is that acceptable?
Regards Balazs

P.S. The feature was possible to use.=20
It could be read from " out-of-band documentation" As indicated in the =
YANG
module. For some use-cases (E.g. Use Case 2: Preloading Data) when the
operator/designer is sending data to the server (not receiving it), it =
is
useful to know whether the inline method is supported or not.

In case the file comes from the server the feature is less useful.


-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>=20
Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 6., kedd 17:15
To: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; 'netmod@ietf.org'
<netmod@ietf.org>; andy@yumaworks.com; Juergen Schoenwaelder
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Cc: Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

Hi Balazs,

To follow up with our conversation earlier.  Andy and Juergen explicitly
copied because they may have previously commented on these issues during =
WG
LC.

I think that my comment regarding the "feature statement" and the
flexibility of the inline-method are closely related.  I find the =
definition
of the inline-content-schema to be so generic that it effectively allows
anything.  E.g., the drafts would allow me to publish a file that has an
inline-content-schema based on robs-random-schema-format@1.0.0, and it =
would
be very difficult for consumers of the associated instance data file to
understand the file schema.

Similarly, I find that allowing revision labels (as examples to avoid a
normative reference to the module versioning draft), makes it hard for a
generic implementation reader of a instance data file to know how to
interpret an inline schema.  I suspect that this issue could cause =
problems
in the IESG reviews.

Hence, my preference, for this RFC, that defines version 1 of the =
instance
file format, would be to more heavily constrain how the schema is =
allowed to
be specified in the inline-method.  Specifically, I think that it would =
be
better to:
 - restrict the inline schema to only be defined using
ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04
 - only allow revision-dates, not revision labels.

I would like to understand from Andy, whether he still thinks with these
restrictions whether the inline-schema method should still be under a =
YANG
feature statement?

If/when the revision labels draft gets standardized, and perhaps also =
after
YANG packages, then we could do a bis version of this document to define =
a
v2 of the instance file format that potentially allows YANG packages to =
be
used to define the schema, and potentially allows modules to be =
identified
using revision labels as well as revision dates.

Balazs, I'm good with most of your proposed resolutions, but have =
answered
one further question inline below.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> Sent: 05 July 2021 13:47
> To: 'netmod@ietf.org' <netmod@ietf.org>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)=20
> <rwilton@cisco.com>
> Cc: Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: FW: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> Hello Rob,
> Thanks for the review.  Here are my answers below. I will also upload=20
> the new version asap.
> Regards Balazs
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Hi,
>=20
> Here is my AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-13.
>=20
> Thanks for this document, I think that it represents important useful=20
> work for advancing the YANG ecosystem.
>=20
> This document is in good shape, and I mostly have minor comments but=20
> with a few more significant comments.
>=20
> Main comments:
>=20

>=20
> 2.
> In the YANG Module:
>      feature inline-content-schema {
>        description
>          "This feature indicates that inline content-schema
>           option is supported. Support for this feature might
>           be documented only via out-of-band documentation.";
>      }
>=20
> What is the benefit of having 'inline-content-schema' as a feature? =20
> It seems to potentially add complexity without any benefit, given that =

> the device originating the instance data file would effectively choose =

> whether to use the inline-content-schema, hence I suggest that it=20
> might be simpler just to remove the feature definition.
> BALAZS: This was explicitly requested earlier by a reviewer (Andy ?).
> The system can declare supported/not-supported in design =
documentation.
> In a use-case when a client or a design department is sending data to=20
> a server this is needed. E.g. in UC2, Preloading Default Configuration =

> the designer preparing instance data, can decide to use or not use the =

> inline-content-schema based on this.


>=20
> 3.
> In the YANG Module:
>=20
> 	"case inline", description:
>                     The first item is either ietf-yang-library or
>                     some other YANG module that contains a list of
>                     YANG modules with their name, revision-date,
>                     supported-features, and deviations.
>                     The usage of revision '2019-01-04' of the
>                     'ietf-yang-library' module MUST be supported.
>                     Using other modules, module versions MAY also
>                     be supported.
>=20
> This seems to make interop for consumers of instance data files hard,=20
> since the schema can be defined by any arbitrary YANG module without=20
> updating this module.  I would suggest that it is safer to limit this=20
> to the two currently published versions of YANG library.
> BALAZS:  I fully agree, however this was explicitly requested by some=20
> reviewer earlier (Juergen ?) Shall I simplify this or not?
>=20
> If additional modules are supported in future, then I think that it=20
> would be safer to create a new version of this YANG module that=20
> documents what other module formats can be used.
>=20
>=20
> 4.
> In the YANG Module:
> 	list "revision"
>=20
> Is revision expected to be unique, if provided? If so, should this be=20
> explicitly stated in the YANG module description?
> BALAZS: I don't think I understand your comment. There may be multiple =

> list entries for revision. The 'leaf date' is a key, so it is =
inherently
unique.
> The description may or may not be unique.

I would suggest changing:

For every published editorial change, a new one SHOULD be added  in =
front of
the revisions sequence so that all

to:

For every published editorial change, a new unique revision SHOULD be =
added
in front of the revisions sequence so that all

I.e., to also make it clear in the description that revisions dates are
required to be unique.


>=20
>=20
> 5.
> In the YANG Module:
>=20
> Is an instance-data file allowed to contain both a revision and also a =

> timestamp?  If so, is there any constraints on the values.  If not,=20
> then would it make sense to put them under a choice?
> BALAZS:  It is allowed to have both. There is some recommendation text =

> about when to use each. However I can see some corner cases, when=20
> using both in the same file would be useful, E.g. we want a timestamp=20
> including hour, minutes, but we also want the history of the instance=20
> data set, including multible revision/descriptions.
> I propose to add: if both are included the timestamp, SHOULD contain=20
> the same date as the latest revision statement.

Okay.

Thanks,
Rob


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/tPffpPGR0grd7wjXOqaTIbqaU1U>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hello Andy,

There are many different use-cases for instance-data-files, each with =
slightly different requirements.=20

=20

Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was =
generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations and some =
features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate feature-support =
and deviations with the simplified-inline method.

=20

The URL method was requested for the use-case when you generate =
instance-data-sets repeatedly e.g. every minute with the same schema. =
You don=E2=80=99t want to include the content-schema in every file, so =
you just include a single URL reference. (Note the content schema may be =
a longer piece of text, not just a single YANG module+revision)

Regards Balazs

=20

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>=20
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 6., kedd 21:28
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; Andy =
Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; =
Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; netmod@ietf.org; =
Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

=20

=20

=20

On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder =
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> > wrote:

On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> > wrote:
>=20
> > On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > >
> > > IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but =
that
> > > is what the WG wants.  It seems obvious that any reader of the =
file
> > > has to implement all 4 methods and any writer of the file is free =
to pick
> > > just one.
> > > So the feature does not really help.
> > >
> >
> > The feature statements declare that implementation won't work
> > together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoperability =
(and
> > implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fine if =
implementations
> > declare that they won't work together. Well, still slightly better
> > than having implementations fail arbitrarity.
> >
> >
>=20
> This is a text file stored on a USB stick.
> There is no client or server. Just readers and writers.
> So how does a YANG feature work here?
> The reader is supposed to know how to find out if this feature is set
> before opening the file?
>
> I don't see how server capabilities discovery is relevant to a
> YANG instance file.
> The reader code will simply attempt to read the file and fail if it
> encounters
> a format that is not implemented.

I assumed that the features are carried in the instance file, i.e.,
the file declares that it uses way X to announce the schema and then
the parser can fail with a suitable error message. If the features are
not carried in the file, then they indeed seem to be useless.

Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce the features of the
instance file as well, I did not check. ;-)

=20

Now you made re-read the entire draft :-(

I cannot find any text how the reader knows if this feature is set =
before reading the

file and finding out.

=20

I do not see any significant use-case for the Inline method and none for =
the Uri method.

Nor do I see any reason why the Simplified-Inline method should not be =
mandatory

to use and always present.

=20

If the use-case is offline server validation then the YANG library =
details need to be known.

The entire YANG library for the server (or relevant parts) are recorded =
in the Inline method.

Except it is complicated to store the info about how to interpret YANG =
schema by

reading instance files and guessing what the "anydata" contains.

=20

I actually prefer a simple string based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it =
can

be easily integrated into the Simplified Inline form and can be parsed =
without guessing

anything about the contents of anydata.

=20

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4

=20

e,g,

=20

OLD:

         case simplified-inline {
               leaf-list module {
                  type module-with-revision-date;

                  ...

                }

          }

=20

NEW:

=20

         case simplified-inline {
               leaf-list module {
                  type union {

                       type module-with-revision-date;

                       type string;

                   }

                   ...

                }

          }

=20

Example module leaf-list entry:

=20

       =
ietf-interfaces?revision=3D2018-02-20&features=3Dif-mib,arbitrary-names&d=
eviations=3Dacme-deviations

=20

=20

IMO Simplified Inline SHOULD be the only format, and the other methods =
can be removed.

=20

=20

/js

=20

=20

Andy

=20

=20


--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/ =
<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D1b82dc7c-4419e639-1b829ce7-867b3=
6d1634c-3d395fcf11781013&q=3D1&e=3Dce6dbbb8-8693-4ac8-abbf-4a2014b77b32&u=
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello Andy,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>There are many different use-cases for =
instance-data-files, each with slightly different requirements. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that =
the file was generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with =
deviations and some features are not-supported. There is no way to =
indicate feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inline =
method.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The URL method was requested for the use-case when you =
generate instance-data-sets repeatedly e.g. every minute with the same =
schema. You don=E2=80=99t want to include the content-schema in every =
file, so you just include a single URL reference. (Note the content =
schema may be a longer piece of text, not just a single YANG =
module+revision)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Regards =
Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Andy Bierman =
&lt;andy@yumaworks.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 6., kedd =
21:28<br><b>To:</b> Juergen Schoenwaelder =
&lt;j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de&gt;; Andy Bierman =
&lt;andy@yumaworks.com&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
&lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
&lt;balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com&gt;; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise =
&lt;benoit.claise@huawei.com&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de">j.schoenwaelder@jaco=
bs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, =
Andy Bierman wrote:<br>&gt; On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen =
Schoenwaelder &lt;<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, =
Andy Bierman wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; IMO the 4 =
separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but that<br>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; is what the WG wants.&nbsp; It seems obvious that any reader =
of the file<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; has to implement all 4 methods and any =
writer of the file is free to pick<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; just one.<br>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; So the feature does not really help.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The feature statements declare that implementation =
won't work<br>&gt; &gt; together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about =
interoperability (and<br>&gt; &gt; implementation costs). Nowadays we =
seem to be fine if implementations<br>&gt; &gt; declare that they won't =
work together. Well, still slightly better<br>&gt; &gt; than having =
implementations fail arbitrarity.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; This is a text file stored on a USB stick.<br>&gt; There is no =
client or server. Just readers and writers.<br>&gt; So how does a YANG =
feature work here?<br>&gt; The reader is supposed to know how to find =
out if this feature is set<br>&gt; before opening the =
file?<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I don't see how server capabilities discovery is =
relevant to a<br>&gt; YANG instance file.<br>&gt; The reader code will =
simply attempt to read the file and fail if it<br>&gt; =
encounters<br>&gt; a format that is not implemented.<br><br>I assumed =
that the features are carried in the instance file, i.e.,<br>the file =
declares that it uses way X to announce the schema and then<br>the =
parser can fail with a suitable error message. If the features =
are<br>not carried in the file, then they indeed seem to be =
useless.<br><br>Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce the =
features of the<br>instance file as well, I did not check. =
;-)<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Now you made re-read the entire draft =
:-(<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I cannot find any text =
how the reader knows if this feature is set before reading =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>file and finding =
out.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
do not see any significant use-case for the Inline method and none for =
the Uri method.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Nor do I =
see any reason why the Simplified-Inline method should not be =
mandatory<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>to use and =
always present.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If the use-case is offline server validation then the =
YANG library details need to be known.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The entire YANG library for the server (or relevant =
parts) are recorded in the Inline method.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Except it is complicated to store the info about how =
to interpret YANG schema by<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>reading instance files and guessing what the =
&quot;anydata&quot; contains.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
actually prefer a simple string based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it =
can<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>be easily integrated =
into the Simplified Inline form and can be parsed without =
guessing<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>anything about =
the contents of anydata.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4">http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4</a><o:p></o:p></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>e,g,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>OLD:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;case =
simplified-inline {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;leaf-list module {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type =
module-with-revision-date;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; ...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>NEW:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;case =
simplified-inline {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;leaf-list module {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type union {<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;type =
module-with-revision-date;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;type =
string;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
}<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Example module leaf-list =
entry:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;ietf-interfaces?revision=3D2018-02-20&amp;features=3Dif-mib,arbitra=
ry-names&amp;deviations=3Dacme-deviations<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IMO Simplified Inline SHOULD be the only format, and =
the other methods can be removed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>/js<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Andy<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>-- =
<br>Juergen Schoenwaelder&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Jacobs =
University Bremen gGmbH<br>Phone: +49 421 200 3587&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>Fax:&nbsp; =
&nbsp;+49 421 200 3103&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D1b82dc7c-4419e639-1b829ce=
7-867b36d1634c-3d395fcf11781013&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3Dce6dbbb8-8693-4ac8-abbf=
-4a2014b77b32&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p=
></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>
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To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>, "'netmod@ietf.org'" <netmod@ietf.org>, "andy@yumaworks.com" <andy@yumaworks.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/SGF0DqUATZLPsE_671WsOLoNkBY>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hi Balazs, Netmod WG,

Yes, broadly that would be acceptable to me. I would actually suggest keepi=
ng the "inline-module" leaf, since I think that makes it easier to extend t=
he format in future and I think that it makes the file a bit more explicit/=
readable, but don't feel strongly on this latter point, so happy to leave t=
his to the authors discretion.

I do understand Andy's point that having a single method of defining the sc=
hema makes interop easier, but I agree with your comment as for there being=
 valid reasons why supporting these different formats is useful for the dif=
ferent use cases, and with the simplification of the inline schema method, =
I don't see supporting any of the defined schema options as being particula=
rly hard to implement (i.e., beyond what is required to reading/understandi=
ng YANG library anyway).

As for the feature statement, I think that when it specified that it has to=
 be communicated via "out-of-band documentation" then it doesn't seem to ho=
ld that much value.  E.g., it is probably just as easy for the out of band =
documentation to say that the provided file must use the simplified-inline =
schema definition, as it is to say the server doesn't support the inline-co=
ntent-schema feature.

Given that there was WG consensus for defining 4 different schema encoding =
methods before, then does anyone in the WG strongly object to the changes t=
hat Balazs has proposed below?

Regards,
Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> Sent: 07 July 2021 08:49
> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; 'netmod@ietf.org'
> <netmod@ietf.org>; andy@yumaworks.com; Juergen Schoenwaelder
> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Cc: Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> Hello Rob,
> I would be happy to simplify the draft. Just we are restarting debates wh=
ich
> were settled earlier. This can lead to a never-ending cycle.
>=20
> So, I propose to:
> - remove all mention of the revision-label
> - remove the feature
> - for the inline method allow just ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as a
> _single_ file. This also means that I should remove the leaf inline-modul=
e
> as there is no need for it anymore. We know the single YANG module it
> would
> define.
> Is that acceptable?
> Regards Balazs
>=20
> P.S. The feature was possible to use.
> It could be read from " out-of-band documentation" As indicated in the
> YANG
> module. For some use-cases (E.g. Use Case 2: Preloading Data) when the
> operator/designer is sending data to the server (not receiving it), it is
> useful to know whether the inline method is supported or not.
>=20
> In case the file comes from the server the feature is less useful.
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 6., kedd 17:15
> To: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; 'netmod@ietf.org'
> <netmod@ietf.org>; andy@yumaworks.com; Juergen Schoenwaelder
> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Cc: Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> Hi Balazs,
>=20
> To follow up with our conversation earlier.  Andy and Juergen explicitly
> copied because they may have previously commented on these issues during
> WG
> LC.
>=20
> I think that my comment regarding the "feature statement" and the
> flexibility of the inline-method are closely related.  I find the definit=
ion
> of the inline-content-schema to be so generic that it effectively allows
> anything.  E.g., the drafts would allow me to publish a file that has an
> inline-content-schema based on robs-random-schema-format@1.0.0, and it
> would
> be very difficult for consumers of the associated instance data file to
> understand the file schema.
>=20
> Similarly, I find that allowing revision labels (as examples to avoid a
> normative reference to the module versioning draft), makes it hard for a
> generic implementation reader of a instance data file to know how to
> interpret an inline schema.  I suspect that this issue could cause proble=
ms
> in the IESG reviews.
>=20
> Hence, my preference, for this RFC, that defines version 1 of the instanc=
e
> file format, would be to more heavily constrain how the schema is allowed=
 to
> be specified in the inline-method.  Specifically, I think that it would b=
e
> better to:
>  - restrict the inline schema to only be defined using
> ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04
>  - only allow revision-dates, not revision labels.
>=20
> I would like to understand from Andy, whether he still thinks with these
> restrictions whether the inline-schema method should still be under a YAN=
G
> feature statement?
>=20
> If/when the revision labels draft gets standardized, and perhaps also aft=
er
> YANG packages, then we could do a bis version of this document to define =
a
> v2 of the instance file format that potentially allows YANG packages to b=
e
> used to define the schema, and potentially allows modules to be identifie=
d
> using revision labels as well as revision dates.
>=20
> Balazs, I'm good with most of your proposed resolutions, but have answere=
d
> one further question inline below.
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> > Sent: 05 July 2021 13:47
> > To: 'netmod@ietf.org' <netmod@ietf.org>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> > <rwilton@cisco.com>
> > Cc: Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > Subject: FW: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> >
> > Hello Rob,
> > Thanks for the review.  Here are my answers below. I will also upload
> > the new version asap.
> > Regards Balazs
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > Hi,
> >
> > Here is my AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-13.
> >
> > Thanks for this document, I think that it represents important useful
> > work for advancing the YANG ecosystem.
> >
> > This document is in good shape, and I mostly have minor comments but
> > with a few more significant comments.
> >
> > Main comments:
> >
>=20
> >
> > 2.
> > In the YANG Module:
> >      feature inline-content-schema {
> >        description
> >          "This feature indicates that inline content-schema
> >           option is supported. Support for this feature might
> >           be documented only via out-of-band documentation.";
> >      }
> >
> > What is the benefit of having 'inline-content-schema' as a feature?
> > It seems to potentially add complexity without any benefit, given that
> > the device originating the instance data file would effectively choose
> > whether to use the inline-content-schema, hence I suggest that it
> > might be simpler just to remove the feature definition.
> > BALAZS: This was explicitly requested earlier by a reviewer (Andy ?).
> > The system can declare supported/not-supported in design
> documentation.
> > In a use-case when a client or a design department is sending data to
> > a server this is needed. E.g. in UC2, Preloading Default Configuration
> > the designer preparing instance data, can decide to use or not use the
> > inline-content-schema based on this.
>=20
>=20
> >
> > 3.
> > In the YANG Module:
> >
> > 	"case inline", description:
> >                     The first item is either ietf-yang-library or
> >                     some other YANG module that contains a list of
> >                     YANG modules with their name, revision-date,
> >                     supported-features, and deviations.
> >                     The usage of revision '2019-01-04' of the
> >                     'ietf-yang-library' module MUST be supported.
> >                     Using other modules, module versions MAY also
> >                     be supported.
> >
> > This seems to make interop for consumers of instance data files hard,
> > since the schema can be defined by any arbitrary YANG module without
> > updating this module.  I would suggest that it is safer to limit this
> > to the two currently published versions of YANG library.
> > BALAZS:  I fully agree, however this was explicitly requested by some
> > reviewer earlier (Juergen ?) Shall I simplify this or not?
> >
> > If additional modules are supported in future, then I think that it
> > would be safer to create a new version of this YANG module that
> > documents what other module formats can be used.
> >
> >
> > 4.
> > In the YANG Module:
> > 	list "revision"
> >
> > Is revision expected to be unique, if provided? If so, should this be
> > explicitly stated in the YANG module description?
> > BALAZS: I don't think I understand your comment. There may be multiple
> > list entries for revision. The 'leaf date' is a key, so it is inherentl=
y
> unique.
> > The description may or may not be unique.
>=20
> I would suggest changing:
>=20
> For every published editorial change, a new one SHOULD be added  in front
> of
> the revisions sequence so that all
>=20
> to:
>=20
> For every published editorial change, a new unique revision SHOULD be
> added
> in front of the revisions sequence so that all
>=20
> I.e., to also make it clear in the description that revisions dates are
> required to be unique.
>=20
>=20
> >
> >
> > 5.
> > In the YANG Module:
> >
> > Is an instance-data file allowed to contain both a revision and also a
> > timestamp?  If so, is there any constraints on the values.  If not,
> > then would it make sense to put them under a choice?
> > BALAZS:  It is allowed to have both. There is some recommendation text
> > about when to use each. However I can see some corner cases, when
> > using both in the same file would be useful, E.g. we want a timestamp
> > including hour, minutes, but we also want the history of the instance
> > data set, including multible revision/descriptions.
> > I propose to add: if both are included the timestamp, SHOULD contain
> > the same date as the latest revision statement.
>=20
> Okay.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Rob


From nobody Wed Jul  7 11:12:27 2021
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 11:12:06 -0700
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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,  "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 1:01 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson=
.com>
wrote:

> Hello Andy,
>
> There are many different use-cases for instance-data-files, each with
> slightly different requirements.
>
>
>

I don't agree that the solution requires 3 ways to do the same thing.
Well, 4 if you count External which means Proprietary and Not Standard At
All.

Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was
> generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations and some
> features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate feature-support a=
nd
> deviations with the simplified-inline method.
>
>
>

The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to use
and takes up much less storage.



> The URL method was requested for the use-case when you generate
> instance-data-sets repeatedly e.g. every minute with the same schema. You
> don=E2=80=99t want to include the content-schema in every file, so you ju=
st include
> a single URL reference. (Note the content schema may be a longer piece of
> text, not just a single YANG module+revision)
>

The solution is very complex and it will not get implemented correctly, or
at all.
IMO this damages interoperability and prevents some companies from using
the solution
at all, because a reader tool has so much complexity to implement.  The
real-world result
will be tools that can only read the files they wrote (not written by
another tool).


Regards Balazs
>
>
>

Andy


> *From:* Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 6., kedd 21:28
> *To:* Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; Andy
> Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>;
> Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoi=
t
> Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> *Subject:* Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but
> that
> > > > is what the WG wants.  It seems obvious that any reader of the file
> > > > has to implement all 4 methods and any writer of the file is free t=
o
> pick
> > > > just one.
> > > > So the feature does not really help.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The feature statements declare that implementation won't work
> > > together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoperability (and
> > > implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fine if implementations
> > > declare that they won't work together. Well, still slightly better
> > > than having implementations fail arbitrarity.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > This is a text file stored on a USB stick.
> > There is no client or server. Just readers and writers.
> > So how does a YANG feature work here?
> > The reader is supposed to know how to find out if this feature is set
> > before opening the file?
> >
> > I don't see how server capabilities discovery is relevant to a
> > YANG instance file.
> > The reader code will simply attempt to read the file and fail if it
> > encounters
> > a format that is not implemented.
>
> I assumed that the features are carried in the instance file, i.e.,
> the file declares that it uses way X to announce the schema and then
> the parser can fail with a suitable error message. If the features are
> not carried in the file, then they indeed seem to be useless.
>
> Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce the features of the
> instance file as well, I did not check. ;-)
>
>
>
> Now you made re-read the entire draft :-(
>
> I cannot find any text how the reader knows if this feature is set before
> reading the
>
> file and finding out.
>
>
>
> I do not see any significant use-case for the Inline method and none for
> the Uri method.
>
> Nor do I see any reason why the Simplified-Inline method should not be
> mandatory
>
> to use and always present.
>
>
>
> If the use-case is offline server validation then the YANG library detail=
s
> need to be known.
>
> The entire YANG library for the server (or relevant parts) are recorded i=
n
> the Inline method.
>
> Except it is complicated to store the info about how to interpret YANG
> schema by
>
> reading instance files and guessing what the "anydata" contains.
>
>
>
> I actually prefer a simple string based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it
> can
>
> be easily integrated into the Simplified Inline form and can be parsed
> without guessing
>
> anything about the contents of anydata.
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4
>
>
>
> e,g,
>
>
>
> OLD:
>
>          case simplified-inline {
>                leaf-list module {
>                   type module-with-revision-date;
>
>                   ...
>
>                 }
>
>           }
>
>
>
> NEW:
>
>
>
>          case simplified-inline {
>                leaf-list module {
>                   type union {
>
>                        type module-with-revision-date;
>
>                        type string;
>
>                    }
>
>                    ...
>
>                 }
>
>           }
>
>
>
> Example module leaf-list entry:
>
>
>
>
>  ietf-interfaces?revision=3D2018-02-20&features=3Dif-mib,arbitrary-names&=
deviations=3Dacme-deviations
>
>
>
>
>
> IMO Simplified Inline SHOULD be the only format, and the other methods ca=
n
> be removed.
>
>
>
>
>
> /js
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/
> <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D1b82dc7c-4419e639-1b829ce7-867b3=
6d1634c-3d395fcf11781013&q=3D1&e=3Dce6dbbb8-8693-4ac8-abbf-4a2014b77b32&u=
=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F>
> >
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 1:01 AM Bal=C3=
=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" target=3D"=
_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">Hello Andy,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are many =
different use-cases for instance-data-files, each with slightly different r=
equirements. <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0</p></di=
v></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t agree that the solutio=
n requires 3 ways to do the same thing.</div><div>Well, 4 if you count Exte=
rnal which means Proprietary and Not Standard At All.</div><div><br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Inline method is ne=
eded, if you want to indicate that the file was generated by someone who us=
es some YANG modules with deviations and some features are not-supported. T=
here is no way to indicate feature-support and deviations with the simplifi=
ed-inline method.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0</p>=
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The Inline anydata solution is=
 very heavyweight.</div><div>Before the YANG library there was a simple URI=
 that is easier to use</div><div>and takes up much less storage.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">The URL method was requested for the use-case when you generate in=
stance-data-sets repeatedly e.g. every minute with the same schema. You don=
=E2=80=99t want to include the content-schema in every file, so you just in=
clude a single URL reference. (Note the content schema may be a longer piec=
e of text, not just a single YANG module+revision)</p></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>The solution is very complex and it will not get im=
plemented correctly, or at all.</div><div>IMO this damages interoperability=
 and prevents some companies from using the solution</div><div>at all, beca=
use a reader tool has so much complexity to implement.=C2=A0 The real-world=
 result</div><div>will be tools that can only read the files they wrote (no=
t written by another tool).</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards Balazs<u></u><u=
></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0</p></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u=
></p><div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;bo=
rder-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><b>From:</b> Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAli=
us 6., kedd 21:28<br><b>To:</b> Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@ja=
cobs-university.de</a>&gt;; Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumawor=
ks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.co=
m</a>&gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsso=
n.com" target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>; Benoit Claise =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">benoit.cl=
aise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netm=
od-yang-instance-file-format<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_blank">j=
.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><=
blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;bo=
rder-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.=
8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">O=
n Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:<br>&gt; On Tue=
, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<br>&gt; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder=
@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; On Tue, Jul 06, =
2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt=
; &gt; IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but t=
hat<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; is what the WG wants.=C2=A0 It seems obvious that any=
 reader of the file<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; has to implement all 4 methods and an=
y writer of the file is free to pick<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; just one.<br>&gt; &g=
t; &gt; So the feature does not really help.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;=
<br>&gt; &gt; The feature statements declare that implementation won&#39;t =
work<br>&gt; &gt; together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoper=
ability (and<br>&gt; &gt; implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fin=
e if implementations<br>&gt; &gt; declare that they won&#39;t work together=
. Well, still slightly better<br>&gt; &gt; than having implementations fail=
 arbitrarity.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; This is a text fil=
e stored on a USB stick.<br>&gt; There is no client or server. Just readers=
 and writers.<br>&gt; So how does a YANG feature work here?<br>&gt; The rea=
der is supposed to know how to find out if this feature is set<br>&gt; befo=
re opening the file?<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I don&#39;t see how server capabilitie=
s discovery is relevant to a<br>&gt; YANG instance file.<br>&gt; The reader=
 code will simply attempt to read the file and fail if it<br>&gt; encounter=
s<br>&gt; a format that is not implemented.<br><br>I assumed that the featu=
res are carried in the instance file, i.e.,<br>the file declares that it us=
es way X to announce the schema and then<br>the parser can fail with a suit=
able error message. If the features are<br>not carried in the file, then th=
ey indeed seem to be useless.<br><br>Perhaps there are Y different ways to =
announce the features of the<br>instance file as well, I did not check. ;-)=
<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Now you made re-read the entire d=
raft :-(<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot find a=
ny text how the reader knows if this feature is set before reading the<u></=
u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">file and finding out.<u></u>=
<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do not see any significant use-case for the I=
nline method and none for the Uri method.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">Nor do I see any reason why the Simplified-Inline method =
should not be mandatory<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
to use and always present.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">If the use-cas=
e is offline server validation then the YANG library details need to be kno=
wn.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The entire YANG libr=
ary for the server (or relevant parts) are recorded in the Inline method.<u=
></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Except it is complicated =
to store the info about how to interpret YANG schema by<u></u><u></u></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">reading instance files and guessing what th=
e &quot;anydata&quot; contains.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I actuall=
y prefer a simple string based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it can<u></u><=
u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">be easily integrated into the S=
implified Inline form and can be parsed without guessing<u></u><u></u></p><=
/div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">anything about the contents of anydata.<u>=
</u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">e,g,<=
u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">OLD:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0case simplified-inline {<b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf-list module {=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type mod=
ule-with-revision-date;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...<u></u><u=
></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">N=
EW:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</p></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0case simplified-inline {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf-list module {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type union {<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type module-with-revision-date;<u></u><u></u></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type string;<u></u><u></u></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...<=
u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p></div></div=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">Example module leaf-list entry:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ietf-interfaces?revision=3D2018-02-20&amp;fea=
tures=3Dif-mib,arbitrary-names&amp;deviations=3Dacme-deviations<u></u><u></=
u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">IMO Simplified Inline SHOULD be the only format, and the other method=
s can be removed.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
></div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom=
:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin=
-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">/js<u></u><u></u></p><=
/blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div>=
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>-- <br>Juergen Schoenwael=
der=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH<=
br>Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 |=
 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D=
1b82dc7c-4419e639-1b829ce7-867b36d1634c-3d395fcf11781013&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3D=
ce6dbbb8-8693-4ac8-abbf-4a2014b77b32&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-unive=
rsity.de%2F" target=3D"_blank">https://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<u>=
</u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></di=
v>

--00000000000092508905c68c7ac3--


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 11:49:52 -0700
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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,  "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hi,

I have some questions about the same-schema-as-file leaf:

       leaf same-schema-as-file {
             type inet:uri;
             description
               "A reference to another YANG instance data file.
                This instance data file uses the same
                content schema as the referenced file.";
           }

The type is an unconstrained URI.
Is this the intent?
The tool that writes the file can pick any scheme - any valid URI at all.
The reader must support every known URI scheme in existence? Is that the
intent here?

Sec. 4 contains this line:

    The header part is not security sensitive.


Is this really true if a URI is present in this leaf that contains a
username and password
in cleartext?


Andy


On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 1:01 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson=
.com>
wrote:

> Hello Andy,
>
> There are many different use-cases for instance-data-files, each with
> slightly different requirements.
>
>
>
> Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was
> generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations and some
> features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate feature-support a=
nd
> deviations with the simplified-inline method.
>
>
>
> The URL method was requested for the use-case when you generate
> instance-data-sets repeatedly e.g. every minute with the same schema. You
> don=E2=80=99t want to include the content-schema in every file, so you ju=
st include
> a single URL reference. (Note the content schema may be a longer piece of
> text, not just a single YANG module+revision)
>
> Regards Balazs
>
>
>
> *From:* Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 6., kedd 21:28
> *To:* Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; Andy
> Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>;
> Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoi=
t
> Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> *Subject:* Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but
> that
> > > > is what the WG wants.  It seems obvious that any reader of the file
> > > > has to implement all 4 methods and any writer of the file is free t=
o
> pick
> > > > just one.
> > > > So the feature does not really help.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The feature statements declare that implementation won't work
> > > together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoperability (and
> > > implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fine if implementations
> > > declare that they won't work together. Well, still slightly better
> > > than having implementations fail arbitrarity.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > This is a text file stored on a USB stick.
> > There is no client or server. Just readers and writers.
> > So how does a YANG feature work here?
> > The reader is supposed to know how to find out if this feature is set
> > before opening the file?
> >
> > I don't see how server capabilities discovery is relevant to a
> > YANG instance file.
> > The reader code will simply attempt to read the file and fail if it
> > encounters
> > a format that is not implemented.
>
> I assumed that the features are carried in the instance file, i.e.,
> the file declares that it uses way X to announce the schema and then
> the parser can fail with a suitable error message. If the features are
> not carried in the file, then they indeed seem to be useless.
>
> Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce the features of the
> instance file as well, I did not check. ;-)
>
>
>
> Now you made re-read the entire draft :-(
>
> I cannot find any text how the reader knows if this feature is set before
> reading the
>
> file and finding out.
>
>
>
> I do not see any significant use-case for the Inline method and none for
> the Uri method.
>
> Nor do I see any reason why the Simplified-Inline method should not be
> mandatory
>
> to use and always present.
>
>
>
> If the use-case is offline server validation then the YANG library detail=
s
> need to be known.
>
> The entire YANG library for the server (or relevant parts) are recorded i=
n
> the Inline method.
>
> Except it is complicated to store the info about how to interpret YANG
> schema by
>
> reading instance files and guessing what the "anydata" contains.
>
>
>
> I actually prefer a simple string based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it
> can
>
> be easily integrated into the Simplified Inline form and can be parsed
> without guessing
>
> anything about the contents of anydata.
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4
>
>
>
> e,g,
>
>
>
> OLD:
>
>          case simplified-inline {
>                leaf-list module {
>                   type module-with-revision-date;
>
>                   ...
>
>                 }
>
>           }
>
>
>
> NEW:
>
>
>
>          case simplified-inline {
>                leaf-list module {
>                   type union {
>
>                        type module-with-revision-date;
>
>                        type string;
>
>                    }
>
>                    ...
>
>                 }
>
>           }
>
>
>
> Example module leaf-list entry:
>
>
>
>
>  ietf-interfaces?revision=3D2018-02-20&features=3Dif-mib,arbitrary-names&=
deviations=3Dacme-deviations
>
>
>
>
>
> IMO Simplified Inline SHOULD be the only format, and the other methods ca=
n
> be removed.
>
>
>
>
>
> /js
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/
> <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D1b82dc7c-4419e639-1b829ce7-867b3=
6d1634c-3d395fcf11781013&q=3D1&e=3Dce6dbbb8-8693-4ac8-abbf-4a2014b77b32&u=
=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F>
> >
>
>

--0000000000009e19cb05c68d0172
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>I have some questions about the sam=
e-schema-as-file leaf:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
leaf same-schema-as-file {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0type inet:uri;<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0descri=
ption<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;A ref=
erence to another YANG instance data file.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This instance data file uses the same<br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 content schema as the ref=
erenced file.&quot;;<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<br></div=
><div><br></div><div>The type is an unconstrained URI.</div><div>Is this th=
e intent?</div><div>The tool that writes the file can pick any scheme - any=
 valid URI at all.</div><div>The reader must support every known URI scheme=
 in existence? Is that the intent here?</div><div><br></div><div>Sec. 4 con=
tains this line:</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">    The header part is not security sensitive.</pre><pr=
e style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap"><br></pre>Is this really =
true if a URI is present in this leaf that contains a username and password=
</div><div>in cleartext?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy=
</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 1:01 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmai=
l-m_5893264498017850216WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello Andy,<u><=
/u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are many different use-cases for=
 instance-data-files, each with slightly different requirements. <u></u><u>=
</u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was gener=
ated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations and some feature=
s are not-supported. There is no way to indicate feature-support and deviat=
ions with the simplified-inline method.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The URL method was requ=
ested for the use-case when you generate instance-data-sets repeatedly e.g.=
 every minute with the same schema. You don=E2=80=99t want to include the c=
ontent-schema in every file, so you just include a single URL reference. (N=
ote the content schema may be a longer piece of text, not just a single YAN=
G module+revision)<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards Balazs<u=
></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div style=
=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt so=
lid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</=
b> Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 6., kedd 21:=
28<br><b>To:</b> Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelde=
r@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university=
.de</a>&gt;; Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=
=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Bal=
=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" target=
=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>; Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">benoit.claise@huawei=
.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-ins=
tance-file-format<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwae=
lder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote=
 style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:=
1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin=
-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">On Tue, Jul=
 06, 2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:<br>&gt; On Tue, Jul 6, 2=
021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:j.scho=
enwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-un=
iversity.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09=
:42:39AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; IMO=
 the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but that<br>&gt=
; &gt; &gt; is what the WG wants.=C2=A0 It seems obvious that any reader of=
 the file<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; has to implement all 4 methods and any writer o=
f the file is free to pick<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; just one.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; So=
 the feature does not really help.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &=
gt; The feature statements declare that implementation won&#39;t work<br>&g=
t; &gt; together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoperability (a=
nd<br>&gt; &gt; implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fine if imple=
mentations<br>&gt; &gt; declare that they won&#39;t work together. Well, st=
ill slightly better<br>&gt; &gt; than having implementations fail arbitrari=
ty.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; This is a text file stored o=
n a USB stick.<br>&gt; There is no client or server. Just readers and write=
rs.<br>&gt; So how does a YANG feature work here?<br>&gt; The reader is sup=
posed to know how to find out if this feature is set<br>&gt; before opening=
 the file?<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I don&#39;t see how server capabilities discover=
y is relevant to a<br>&gt; YANG instance file.<br>&gt; The reader code will=
 simply attempt to read the file and fail if it<br>&gt; encounters<br>&gt; =
a format that is not implemented.<br><br>I assumed that the features are ca=
rried in the instance file, i.e.,<br>the file declares that it uses way X t=
o announce the schema and then<br>the parser can fail with a suitable error=
 message. If the features are<br>not carried in the file, then they indeed =
seem to be useless.<br><br>Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce t=
he features of the<br>instance file as well, I did not check. ;-)<u></u><u>=
</u></p></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Now you made re-read the entire draft :-(<u=
></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot find any text ho=
w the reader knows if this feature is set before reading the<u></u><u></u><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">file and finding out.<u></u><u></u></p=
></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">I do not see any significant use-case for the Inline meth=
od and none for the Uri method.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">Nor do I see any reason why the Simplified-Inline method should not=
 be mandatory<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">to use and=
 always present.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">If the use-case is offli=
ne server validation then the YANG library details need to be known.<u></u>=
<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The entire YANG library for th=
e server (or relevant parts) are recorded in the Inline method.<u></u><u></=
u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Except it is complicated to store t=
he info about how to interpret YANG schema by<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">reading instance files and guessing what the &quot;an=
ydata&quot; contains.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I actually prefer a=
 simple string based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it can<u></u><u></u></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">be easily integrated into the Simplified =
Inline form and can be parsed without guessing<u></u><u></u></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">anything about the contents of anydata.<u></u><u></u=
></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6=
020#section-5.6.4" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/=
rfc6020#section-5.6.4</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">e,g,<u></u><u><=
/u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">OLD:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0case simplified-inline {<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf-list module {<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type module-wit=
h-revision-date;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...<u></u><u></u></=
p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">NEW:<u>=
</u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></=
div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0case=
 simplified-inline {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0leaf-list module {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type union {<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type module-with-revision-date;<u></u><u></u></p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type string;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...<u></u=
><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">Example module leaf-list entry:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ietf-interfaces?revision=3D2018-02-20&amp;featur=
es=3Dif-mib,arbitrary-names&amp;deviations=3Dacme-deviations<u></u><u></u><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">IMO Simplified Inline SHOULD be the only format, and the other methods c=
an be removed.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>=
</div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:=
none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-=
left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">/js<u></u><u></u></p></=
blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><=
blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;bo=
rder-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.=
8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>-- <br>Juergen Schoenwaeld=
er=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH<b=
r>Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | =
28759 Bremen | Germany<br>Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D=
1b82dc7c-4419e639-1b829ce7-867b36d1634c-3d395fcf11781013&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3D=
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YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-07-06

IETF 111 presentation (July 27 Tues)
- Jason present intro + module versioning (Joe as backup)
- Joe present semver
- slide preparation for module versioning:
   - A) Module versioning "Updates since last time":  Reshad
      - closed issue
      - diff the draft
       - see previous weekly call minutes
   - B) Module versioning "Open Issues": Jason
      - Andy & Juergen's comments about yang next (1.2 vs 2.0 with everythi=
ng else ?)
      - ready for WG LC ?  (but not take it there yet ? just don't take to =
IESG ?)
       - industry is moving this way anyway
- Joe prep semver slides
     - are all open github issues actually addressed ?
Rob's email "PLEASE READ" - done except wording for guidance on removing hi=
story
-> next steps: more top down reviews (Jan, Jason, Reshad, Joe, Bo ?)

Also need to start top down reviews of Semver draft

Joe will bump the requirements draft to keep it alive

Jason

----------------------------------------------
Weekly webex call details:
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Meeting password: semver?
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da)
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-07-06<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IETF 111 presentation (July 27 Tues)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Jason present intro + module versioning (Joe as ba=
ckup)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Joe present semver<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- slide preparation for module versioning:<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; - A) Module versioning &quot;Updates si=
nce last time&quot;:&nbsp; Reshad<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - closed issue<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - diff the draft<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;- see previous =
weekly call minutes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; - B) Module versioning &quot;Open Issue=
s&quot;: Jason<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Andy &amp; Juergen'=
s comments about yang next (1.2 vs 2.0 with everything else ?)<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;- ready for WG LC ?&n=
bsp; (but not take it there yet ? just don't take to IESG ?)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;- industry is m=
oving this way anyway<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Joe prep semver slides<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - are all open github issue=
s actually addressed ?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Rob's email &quot;PLEASE READ&quot; - done except wo=
rding for guidance on removing history<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-&gt; next steps: more top down reviews (Jan, Jason,=
 Reshad, Joe, Bo ?)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also need to start top down reviews of Semver draft<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Joe will bump the requirements draft to keep it aliv=
e<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jason<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">----------------------------------------------<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Weekly webex call details:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Meeting number (access code): 171 069 0374 <o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Meeting password: semver?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, September 1,=
 2020 until Tuesday, August 24, 2021 from 9:00 AM to 10:00 AM, (UTC-04:00) =
Eastern Time (US &amp; Canada)
<o:p></o:p></p>
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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 21:25:34 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs?= Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/kX6PEOreV8KwWGNBhI-qC1n8zE4>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> 
> > Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was
> > generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations and some
> > features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate feature-support and
> > deviations with the simplified-inline method.
> 
> The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
> Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to use
> and takes up much less storage.
>

The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an open
ended set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say
ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In
other words, two implementations supporting inline content schema may
not interoperate. I do not think there is a schema format that is
mandatory to implement for inline content schema.

So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of interoperability:

- Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable
- Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily interoperable
- URI method pushes the problem to another instance file, interoperable
- External is by desing not interoperable

On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some
complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multiple
datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand that
an instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).

To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good
thing. Being able to dump a live server datastore into an instance
file seems like a very valid use case to me and ideally this is
possible without having to rewrite the schema part. Well, you could go
and trim unused datastore schemas and from there unused module sets
etc but that can all be done by an external tool trimming the schema
part, i.e., it does not need to be done by a tool that just dumps a
server datastore.

What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you really
save compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525 representation? And
does that saving justify to start engineering another schema
specification format?

I guess my choice would have been to just have

       +-- content-schema
       |  +-- (content-schema-spec)?
       |     +--: (yang-library)
       |     +--: (uri)

but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that
everything sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case
other schema definition formats are out there).

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
CC: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/ocgzx603rwVPgDEM564byhNLRIw>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hello,

*	Inline is needed because you might want to specify dozens of YANG =
modules with all their features and deviations. That is a lot of =
information,  so yes it will take some effort to read and understand it; =
real life nodes do contain many YAMs, features, deviations.=20
*	Simplified-inline is needed, because it is self-contained and often an =
instance data set only contains info for 1 or 2 YANG modules without =
deviations or feature issues
*	URL is required because it is self-describing at least via reference. =
It might describe big, complicated schemas with a single URI. Most =
useful when many files with the same complex schema are processed.=20
*	External method is needed because in many environments the schema is =
already known, so it does not need to be included

=20

The workgroup has agreed that all 4 methods are needed for some =
use-cases. We can restart that debate, but I hope not.

=20

Regards Balazs

=20

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>=20
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda 20:12
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; Rob =
Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise =
<benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

=20

=20

=20

On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 1:01 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
<balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com <mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > =
wrote:

Hello Andy,

There are many different use-cases for instance-data-files, each with =
slightly different requirements.=20

=20

=20

I don't agree that the solution requires 3 ways to do the same thing.

Well, 4 if you count External which means Proprietary and Not Standard =
At All.

=20

Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was =
generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations and some =
features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate feature-support =
and deviations with the simplified-inline method.

=20

=20

The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.

Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to use

and takes up much less storage.

=20

=20

The URL method was requested for the use-case when you generate =
instance-data-sets repeatedly e.g. every minute with the same schema. =
You don=E2=80=99t want to include the content-schema in every file, so =
you just include a single URL reference. (Note the content schema may be =
a longer piece of text, not just a single YANG module+revision)

=20

The solution is very complex and it will not get implemented correctly, =
or at all.

IMO this damages interoperability and prevents some companies from using =
the solution

at all, because a reader tool has so much complexity to implement.  The =
real-world result

will be tools that can only read the files they wrote (not written by =
another tool).

=20

=20

Regards Balazs

=20

=20

Andy

=20

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >=20
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 6., kedd 21:28
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> >; Andy Bierman =
<andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >; Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
<rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> >; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
<balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com <mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> >; =
netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> ; Benoit Claise =
<benoit.claise@huawei.com <mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com> >
Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

=20

=20

=20

On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder =
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> > wrote:

On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> > wrote:
>=20
> > On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > >
> > > IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but =
that
> > > is what the WG wants.  It seems obvious that any reader of the =
file
> > > has to implement all 4 methods and any writer of the file is free =
to pick
> > > just one.
> > > So the feature does not really help.
> > >
> >
> > The feature statements declare that implementation won't work
> > together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoperability =
(and
> > implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fine if =
implementations
> > declare that they won't work together. Well, still slightly better
> > than having implementations fail arbitrarity.
> >
> >
>=20
> This is a text file stored on a USB stick.
> There is no client or server. Just readers and writers.
> So how does a YANG feature work here?
> The reader is supposed to know how to find out if this feature is set
> before opening the file?
>
> I don't see how server capabilities discovery is relevant to a
> YANG instance file.
> The reader code will simply attempt to read the file and fail if it
> encounters
> a format that is not implemented.

I assumed that the features are carried in the instance file, i.e.,
the file declares that it uses way X to announce the schema and then
the parser can fail with a suitable error message. If the features are
not carried in the file, then they indeed seem to be useless.

Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce the features of the
instance file as well, I did not check. ;-)

=20

Now you made re-read the entire draft :-(

I cannot find any text how the reader knows if this feature is set =
before reading the

file and finding out.

=20

I do not see any significant use-case for the Inline method and none for =
the Uri method.

Nor do I see any reason why the Simplified-Inline method should not be =
mandatory

to use and always present.

=20

If the use-case is offline server validation then the YANG library =
details need to be known.

The entire YANG library for the server (or relevant parts) are recorded =
in the Inline method.

Except it is complicated to store the info about how to interpret YANG =
schema by

reading instance files and guessing what the "anydata" contains.

=20

I actually prefer a simple string based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it =
can

be easily integrated into the Simplified Inline form and can be parsed =
without guessing

anything about the contents of anydata.

=20

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4

=20

e,g,

=20

OLD:

         case simplified-inline {
               leaf-list module {
                  type module-with-revision-date;

                  ...

                }

          }

=20

NEW:

=20

         case simplified-inline {
               leaf-list module {
                  type union {

                       type module-with-revision-date;

                       type string;

                   }

                   ...

                }

          }

=20

Example module leaf-list entry:

=20

       =
ietf-interfaces?revision=3D2018-02-20&features=3Dif-mib,arbitrary-names&d=
eviations=3Dacme-deviations

=20

=20

IMO Simplified Inline SHOULD be the only format, and the other methods =
can be removed.

=20

=20

/js

=20

=20

Andy

=20

=20


--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/ =
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello,<o:p></o:p></p><ul =
style=3D'margin-top:0cm' type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>Inline is needed =
because you might want to specify dozens of YANG modules with all their =
features and deviations. That is a lot of information, =C2=A0so yes it =
will take some effort to read and understand it; real life nodes do =
contain many YAMs, features, deviations. <o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'>Simplified-inline is needed, because it is self-contained and =
often an instance data set only contains info for 1 or 2 YANG modules =
without deviations or feature issues<o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'>URL is required because it is self-describing at least via =
reference. It might describe big, complicated schemas with a single URI. =
Most useful when many files with the same complex schema are processed. =
<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>External method is =
needed because in many environments the schema is already known, so it =
does not need to be included<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The =
workgroup has agreed that all 4 methods are needed for some use-cases. =
We can restart that debate, but I hope not.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Regards =
Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Andy Bierman =
&lt;andy@yumaworks.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda =
20:12<br><b>To:</b> Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
&lt;balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Juergen Schoenwaelder =
&lt;j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
&lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise =
&lt;benoit.claise@huawei.com&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 1:01 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hello =
Andy,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>There are =
many different use-cases for instance-data-files, each with slightly =
different requirements. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
don't agree that the solution requires 3 ways to do the same =
thing.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Well, 4 if you =
count External which means Proprietary and Not Standard At =
All.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Inline =
method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was generated by =
someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations and some features are =
not-supported. There is no way to indicate feature-support and =
deviations with the simplified-inline method.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The Inline anydata solution is very =
heavyweight.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Before the =
YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to =
use<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>and takes up much less =
storage.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The URL =
method was requested for the use-case when you generate =
instance-data-sets repeatedly e.g. every minute with the same schema. =
You don=E2=80=99t want to include the content-schema in every file, so =
you just include a single URL reference. (Note the content schema may be =
a longer piece of text, not just a single YANG =
module+revision)<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The solution is very complex and it will not get =
implemented correctly, or at all.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IMO this damages interoperability and prevents some =
companies from using the solution<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>at all, because a reader tool has so much complexity =
to implement.&nbsp; The real-world result<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>will be tools that can only read the files they wrote =
(not written by another tool).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Regards =
Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Andy<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b>=
 Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. =
j=C3=BAlius 6., kedd 21:28<br><b>To:</b> Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;; Andy =
Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>; =
Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Tue, Jul =
6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Tue, Jul 06, =
2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:<br>&gt; On Tue, Jul 6, =
2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, =
Andy Bierman wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; IMO the 4 =
separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but that<br>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; is what the WG wants.&nbsp; It seems obvious that any reader =
of the file<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; has to implement all 4 methods and any =
writer of the file is free to pick<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; just one.<br>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; So the feature does not really help.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The feature statements declare that implementation =
won't work<br>&gt; &gt; together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about =
interoperability (and<br>&gt; &gt; implementation costs). Nowadays we =
seem to be fine if implementations<br>&gt; &gt; declare that they won't =
work together. Well, still slightly better<br>&gt; &gt; than having =
implementations fail arbitrarity.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; This is a text file stored on a USB stick.<br>&gt; There is no =
client or server. Just readers and writers.<br>&gt; So how does a YANG =
feature work here?<br>&gt; The reader is supposed to know how to find =
out if this feature is set<br>&gt; before opening the =
file?<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I don't see how server capabilities discovery is =
relevant to a<br>&gt; YANG instance file.<br>&gt; The reader code will =
simply attempt to read the file and fail if it<br>&gt; =
encounters<br>&gt; a format that is not implemented.<br><br>I assumed =
that the features are carried in the instance file, i.e.,<br>the file =
declares that it uses way X to announce the schema and then<br>the =
parser can fail with a suitable error message. If the features =
are<br>not carried in the file, then they indeed seem to be =
useless.<br><br>Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce the =
features of the<br>instance file as well, I did not check. =
;-)<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Now you =
made re-read the entire draft :-(<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I cannot =
find any text how the reader knows if this feature is set before reading =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>file and =
finding out.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I do not =
see any significant use-case for the Inline method and none for the Uri =
method.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Nor do I =
see any reason why the Simplified-Inline method should not be =
mandatory<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>to use and =
always present.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If the =
use-case is offline server validation then the YANG library details need =
to be known.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The entire =
YANG library for the server (or relevant parts) are recorded in the =
Inline method.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Except it =
is complicated to store the info about how to interpret YANG schema =
by<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>reading =
instance files and guessing what the &quot;anydata&quot; =
contains.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I actually =
prefer a simple string based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it =
can<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>be easily =
integrated into the Simplified Inline form and can be parsed without =
guessing<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>anything =
about the contents of anydata.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5=
.6.4</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>e,g,<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>OLD:<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;case simplified-inline {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;leaf-list module {<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type =
module-with-revision-date;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>NEW:<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;case simplified-inline {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;leaf-list module {<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type union =
{<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;type module-with-revision-date;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;type string;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Example =
module leaf-list entry:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;ietf-interfaces?revision=3D2018-02-20&amp;features=3Dif-mib,arbitra=
ry-names&amp;deviations=3Dacme-deviations<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>IMO =
Simplified Inline SHOULD be the only format, and the other methods can =
be removed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>/js<o:p></o:=
p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Andy<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>-- =
<br>Juergen Schoenwaelder&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Jacobs =
University Bremen gGmbH<br>Phone: +49 421 200 3587&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>Fax:&nbsp; =
&nbsp;+49 421 200 3103&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D1b82dc7c-4419e639-1b829ce=
7-867b36d1634c-3d395fcf11781013&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3Dce6dbbb8-8693-4ac8-abbf=
-4a2014b77b32&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p=
></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></bo=
dy></html>
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CC: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/rDmtgO2i3yo-My-qbB1G-ivowwQ>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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See inline, Balazs

=20

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>=20
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda 20:50
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; Rob =
Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise =
<benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

=20

Hi,

=20

I have some questions about the same-schema-as-file leaf:

=20

       leaf same-schema-as-file {
             type inet:uri;
             description
               "A reference to another YANG instance data file.
                This instance data file uses the same
                content schema as the referenced file.";
           }

=20

The type is an unconstrained URI.

Is this the intent?

The tool that writes the file can pick any scheme - any valid URI at =
all.

The reader must support every known URI scheme in existence? Is that the =
intent here?

BALAZS: As the number of URI schemes is growing with new URI schemes =
introduced from time to time, that is clearly impossible. On the other =
hand, we don=E2=80=99t want to constrain URI schemes. This draft is not =
about selecting the best URI schemes for referencing a file, it only =
about providing a common format for metadata about instance files. The =
set of usable/used URI schemes will have to be communicated using some =
other method. You could ask a similar question: does a Netconf client =
need to be prepared for any YANG model? No just for the ones he is =
interested in.

=20

Sec. 4 contains this line:

=20

    The header part is not security sensitive.
=20

Is this really true if a URI is present in this leaf that contains a =
username and password

in cleartext?=20

BALAZS: Clear text passwords are not the intention. Shall I  add a =
statement about this to the security considerations?

=20

Andy

=20

=20

On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 1:01 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
<balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com <mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > =
wrote:

Hello Andy,

There are many different use-cases for instance-data-files, each with =
slightly different requirements.=20

=20

Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was =
generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations and some =
features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate feature-support =
and deviations with the simplified-inline method.

=20

The URL method was requested for the use-case when you generate =
instance-data-sets repeatedly e.g. every minute with the same schema. =
You don=E2=80=99t want to include the content-schema in every file, so =
you just include a single URL reference. (Note the content schema may be =
a longer piece of text, not just a single YANG module+revision)

Regards Balazs

=20

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >=20
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 6., kedd 21:28
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> >; Andy Bierman =
<andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >; Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
<rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> >; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
<balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com <mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> >; =
netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> ; Benoit Claise =
<benoit.claise@huawei.com <mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com> >
Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

=20

=20

=20

On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder =
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> > wrote:

On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> > wrote:
>=20
> > On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > >
> > > IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but =
that
> > > is what the WG wants.  It seems obvious that any reader of the =
file
> > > has to implement all 4 methods and any writer of the file is free =
to pick
> > > just one.
> > > So the feature does not really help.
> > >
> >
> > The feature statements declare that implementation won't work
> > together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoperability =
(and
> > implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fine if =
implementations
> > declare that they won't work together. Well, still slightly better
> > than having implementations fail arbitrarity.
> >
> >
>=20
> This is a text file stored on a USB stick.
> There is no client or server. Just readers and writers.
> So how does a YANG feature work here?
> The reader is supposed to know how to find out if this feature is set
> before opening the file?
>
> I don't see how server capabilities discovery is relevant to a
> YANG instance file.
> The reader code will simply attempt to read the file and fail if it
> encounters
> a format that is not implemented.

I assumed that the features are carried in the instance file, i.e.,
the file declares that it uses way X to announce the schema and then
the parser can fail with a suitable error message. If the features are
not carried in the file, then they indeed seem to be useless.

Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce the features of the
instance file as well, I did not check. ;-)

=20

Now you made re-read the entire draft :-(

I cannot find any text how the reader knows if this feature is set =
before reading the

file and finding out.

=20

I do not see any significant use-case for the Inline method and none for =
the Uri method.

Nor do I see any reason why the Simplified-Inline method should not be =
mandatory

to use and always present.

=20

If the use-case is offline server validation then the YANG library =
details need to be known.

The entire YANG library for the server (or relevant parts) are recorded =
in the Inline method.

Except it is complicated to store the info about how to interpret YANG =
schema by

reading instance files and guessing what the "anydata" contains.

=20

I actually prefer a simple string based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it =
can

be easily integrated into the Simplified Inline form and can be parsed =
without guessing

anything about the contents of anydata.

=20

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4

=20

e,g,

=20

OLD:

         case simplified-inline {
               leaf-list module {
                  type module-with-revision-date;

                  ...

                }

          }

=20

NEW:

=20

         case simplified-inline {
               leaf-list module {
                  type union {

                       type module-with-revision-date;

                       type string;

                   }

                   ...

                }

          }

=20

Example module leaf-list entry:

=20

       =
ietf-interfaces?revision=3D2018-02-20&features=3Dif-mib,arbitrary-names&d=
eviations=3Dacme-deviations

=20

=20

IMO Simplified Inline SHOULD be the only format, and the other methods =
can be removed.

=20

=20

/js

=20

=20

Andy

=20

=20


--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/ =
<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D1b82dc7c-4419e639-1b829ce7-867b3=
6d1634c-3d395fcf11781013&q=3D1&e=3Dce6dbbb8-8693-4ac8-abbf-4a2014b77b32&u=
=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F> >


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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>See inline, =
Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Andy Bierman =
&lt;andy@yumaworks.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda =
20:50<br><b>To:</b> Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
&lt;balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Juergen Schoenwaelder =
&lt;j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
&lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise =
&lt;benoit.claise@huawei.com&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
have some questions about the same-schema-as-file =
leaf:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;leaf same-schema-as-file =
{<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;type =
inet:uri;<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;description<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&quot;A reference to another YANG instance data file.<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This instance data file =
uses the same<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
content schema as the referenced file.&quot;;<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The type is an unconstrained =
URI.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Is this the =
intent?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The tool that =
writes the file can pick any scheme - any valid URI at =
all.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The reader must =
support every known URI scheme in existence? Is that the intent =
here?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>BALAZS: As the number of URI =
schemes is growing with new URI schemes introduced from time to time, =
that is clearly impossible. On the other hand, we don=E2=80=99t want to =
constrain URI schemes. This draft is not about selecting the best URI =
schemes for referencing a file, it only about providing a common format =
for metadata about instance files. The set of usable/used URI schemes =
will have to be communicated using some other method. You could ask a =
similar question: does a Netconf client need to be prepared for any YANG =
model? No just for the ones he is interested =
in.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sec. 4 contains this line:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><pre =
style=3D'white-space:pre-wrap'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The header part is not security =
sensitive.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'white-space:pre-wrap'><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Is this really true if a URI is present in this leaf =
that contains a username and password<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>in cleartext?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>BALAZS: Clear text passwords are not the intention. =
Shall I =C2=A0add a statement about this to the security =
considerations?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Andy<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 1:01 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hello =
Andy,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>There are =
many different use-cases for instance-data-files, each with slightly =
different requirements. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Inline =
method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was generated by =
someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations and some features are =
not-supported. There is no way to indicate feature-support and =
deviations with the simplified-inline method.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The URL =
method was requested for the use-case when you generate =
instance-data-sets repeatedly e.g. every minute with the same schema. =
You don=E2=80=99t want to include the content-schema in every file, so =
you just include a single URL reference. (Note the content schema may be =
a longer piece of text, not just a single YANG =
module+revision)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Regards =
Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b>=
 Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. =
j=C3=BAlius 6., kedd 21:28<br><b>To:</b> Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;; Andy =
Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>; =
Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Tue, Jul =
6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Tue, Jul 06, =
2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:<br>&gt; On Tue, Jul 6, =
2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, =
Andy Bierman wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; IMO the 4 =
separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but that<br>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; is what the WG wants.&nbsp; It seems obvious that any reader =
of the file<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; has to implement all 4 methods and any =
writer of the file is free to pick<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; just one.<br>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; So the feature does not really help.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The feature statements declare that implementation =
won't work<br>&gt; &gt; together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about =
interoperability (and<br>&gt; &gt; implementation costs). Nowadays we =
seem to be fine if implementations<br>&gt; &gt; declare that they won't =
work together. Well, still slightly better<br>&gt; &gt; than having =
implementations fail arbitrarity.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; This is a text file stored on a USB stick.<br>&gt; There is no =
client or server. Just readers and writers.<br>&gt; So how does a YANG =
feature work here?<br>&gt; The reader is supposed to know how to find =
out if this feature is set<br>&gt; before opening the =
file?<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I don't see how server capabilities discovery is =
relevant to a<br>&gt; YANG instance file.<br>&gt; The reader code will =
simply attempt to read the file and fail if it<br>&gt; =
encounters<br>&gt; a format that is not implemented.<br><br>I assumed =
that the features are carried in the instance file, i.e.,<br>the file =
declares that it uses way X to announce the schema and then<br>the =
parser can fail with a suitable error message. If the features =
are<br>not carried in the file, then they indeed seem to be =
useless.<br><br>Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce the =
features of the<br>instance file as well, I did not check. =
;-)<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Now you =
made re-read the entire draft :-(<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I cannot =
find any text how the reader knows if this feature is set before reading =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>file and =
finding out.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I do not =
see any significant use-case for the Inline method and none for the Uri =
method.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Nor do I =
see any reason why the Simplified-Inline method should not be =
mandatory<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>to use and =
always present.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If the =
use-case is offline server validation then the YANG library details need =
to be known.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The entire =
YANG library for the server (or relevant parts) are recorded in the =
Inline method.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Except it =
is complicated to store the info about how to interpret YANG schema =
by<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>reading =
instance files and guessing what the &quot;anydata&quot; =
contains.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I actually =
prefer a simple string based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it =
can<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>be easily =
integrated into the Simplified Inline form and can be parsed without =
guessing<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>anything =
about the contents of anydata.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5=
.6.4</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>e,g,<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>OLD:<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;case simplified-inline {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;leaf-list module {<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type =
module-with-revision-date;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>NEW:<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;case simplified-inline {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;leaf-list module {<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type union =
{<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;type module-with-revision-date;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;type string;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Example =
module leaf-list entry:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;ietf-interfaces?revision=3D2018-02-20&amp;features=3Dif-mib,arbitra=
ry-names&amp;deviations=3Dacme-deviations<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>IMO =
Simplified Inline SHOULD be the only format, and the other methods can =
be removed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>/js<o:p></o:=
p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Andy<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>-- =
<br>Juergen Schoenwaelder&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Jacobs =
University Bremen gGmbH<br>Phone: +49 421 200 3587&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>Fax:&nbsp; =
&nbsp;+49 421 200 3103&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D1b82dc7c-4419e639-1b829ce=
7-867b36d1634c-3d395fcf11781013&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3Dce6dbbb8-8693-4ac8-abbf=
-4a2014b77b32&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p=
></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></body></h=
tml>
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To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
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Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/AIHssCrn31CyRyhuEyDEKZHOcQs>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hello Jurgen,
Inline:
This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlier by =
other
reviewers.=20
Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will be simplified to use =
only
ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.

Simplified inline:
In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most =
common
format.=20
If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and don't =
have,

don't care about features/deviations it is the easiest, shortest method =
to
use.
 Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access control =
rules
for new nodes.=20
When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides a set =
of
NACM rules=20
for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.
In this case you only need to specify "ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22" No
deviations, no features to indicate.
Regards Balazs

Regards Balazs

-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>=20
Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 7., szerda 21:26
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)
<rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
<benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
>=20
> > Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was=20
> > generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations and=20
> > some features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate=20
> > feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inline method.
>=20
> The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
> Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to use=20
> and takes up much less storage.
>

The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an open =
ended
set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say
ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In =
other
words, two implementations supporting inline content schema may not
interoperate. I do not think there is a schema format that is mandatory =
to
implement for inline content schema.

So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of interoperability:

- Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable
- Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily interoperable
- URI method pushes the problem to another instance file, interoperable
- External is by desing not interoperable

On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some
complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multiple
datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand that an
instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).

To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good thing. =
Being
able to dump a live server datastore into an instance file seems like a =
very
valid use case to me and ideally this is possible without having to =
rewrite
the schema part. Well, you could go and trim unused datastore schemas =
and
from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an =
external
tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be done by a =
tool
that just dumps a server datastore.

What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you really =
save
compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525 representation? And does =
that
saving justify to start engineering another schema specification format?

I guess my choice would have been to just have

       +-- content-schema
       |  +-- (content-schema-spec)?
       |     +--: (yang-library)
       |     +--: (uri)

but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that =
everything
sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case other schema
definition formats are out there).

/js

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/ngfBBxs0ieNLW4-PAb95I_MdiUA>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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A sentence about the security risk of a username/password in the URI =
will be added to the security considerations.

Balazs

=20

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 8., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 11:17
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

=20

See inline, Balazs

=20

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >=20
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda 20:50
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com =
<mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> >
Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> >; Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
<rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> >; netmod@ietf.org =
<mailto:netmod@ietf.org> ; Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com =
<mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com> >
Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

=20

Hi,

=20

I have some questions about the same-schema-as-file leaf:

=20

       leaf same-schema-as-file {
             type inet:uri;
             description
               "A reference to another YANG instance data file.
                This instance data file uses the same
                content schema as the referenced file.";
           }

=20

The type is an unconstrained URI.

Is this the intent?

The tool that writes the file can pick any scheme - any valid URI at =
all.

The reader must support every known URI scheme in existence? Is that the =
intent here?

BALAZS: As the number of URI schemes is growing with new URI schemes =
introduced from time to time, that is clearly impossible. On the other =
hand, we don=E2=80=99t want to constrain URI schemes. This draft is not =
about selecting the best URI schemes for referencing a file, it only =
about providing a common format for metadata about instance files. The =
set of usable/used URI schemes will have to be communicated using some =
other method. You could ask a similar question: does a Netconf client =
need to be prepared for any YANG model? No just for the ones he is =
interested in.

=20

Sec. 4 contains this line:

=20

    The header part is not security sensitive.
=20

Is this really true if a URI is present in this leaf that contains a =
username and password

in cleartext?=20

BALAZS: Clear text passwords are not the intention. Shall I  add a =
statement about this to the security considerations?

=20

Andy

=20

=20

On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 1:01 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
<balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com <mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > =
wrote:

Hello Andy,

There are many different use-cases for instance-data-files, each with =
slightly different requirements.=20

=20

Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was =
generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations and some =
features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate feature-support =
and deviations with the simplified-inline method.

=20

The URL method was requested for the use-case when you generate =
instance-data-sets repeatedly e.g. every minute with the same schema. =
You don=E2=80=99t want to include the content-schema in every file, so =
you just include a single URL reference. (Note the content schema may be =
a longer piece of text, not just a single YANG module+revision)

Regards Balazs

=20

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >=20
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 6., kedd 21:28
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> >; Andy Bierman =
<andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >; Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
<rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> >; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
<balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com <mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> >; =
netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> ; Benoit Claise =
<benoit.claise@huawei.com <mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com> >
Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

=20

=20

=20

On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder =
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> > wrote:

On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> > wrote:
>=20
> > On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > >
> > > IMO the 4 separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but =
that
> > > is what the WG wants.  It seems obvious that any reader of the =
file
> > > has to implement all 4 methods and any writer of the file is free =
to pick
> > > just one.
> > > So the feature does not really help.
> > >
> >
> > The feature statements declare that implementation won't work
> > together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about interoperability =
(and
> > implementation costs). Nowadays we seem to be fine if =
implementations
> > declare that they won't work together. Well, still slightly better
> > than having implementations fail arbitrarity.
> >
> >
>=20
> This is a text file stored on a USB stick.
> There is no client or server. Just readers and writers.
> So how does a YANG feature work here?
> The reader is supposed to know how to find out if this feature is set
> before opening the file?
>
> I don't see how server capabilities discovery is relevant to a
> YANG instance file.
> The reader code will simply attempt to read the file and fail if it
> encounters
> a format that is not implemented.

I assumed that the features are carried in the instance file, i.e.,
the file declares that it uses way X to announce the schema and then
the parser can fail with a suitable error message. If the features are
not carried in the file, then they indeed seem to be useless.

Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce the features of the
instance file as well, I did not check. ;-)

=20

Now you made re-read the entire draft :-(

I cannot find any text how the reader knows if this feature is set =
before reading the

file and finding out.

=20

I do not see any significant use-case for the Inline method and none for =
the Uri method.

Nor do I see any reason why the Simplified-Inline method should not be =
mandatory

to use and always present.

=20

If the use-case is offline server validation then the YANG library =
details need to be known.

The entire YANG library for the server (or relevant parts) are recorded =
in the Inline method.

Except it is complicated to store the info about how to interpret YANG =
schema by

reading instance files and guessing what the "anydata" contains.

=20

I actually prefer a simple string based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it =
can

be easily integrated into the Simplified Inline form and can be parsed =
without guessing

anything about the contents of anydata.

=20

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4

=20

e,g,

=20

OLD:

         case simplified-inline {
               leaf-list module {
                  type module-with-revision-date;

                  ...

                }

          }

=20

NEW:

=20

         case simplified-inline {
               leaf-list module {
                  type union {

                       type module-with-revision-date;

                       type string;

                   }

                   ...

                }

          }

=20

Example module leaf-list entry:

=20

       =
ietf-interfaces?revision=3D2018-02-20&features=3Dif-mib,arbitrary-names&d=
eviations=3Dacme-deviations

=20

=20

IMO Simplified Inline SHOULD be the only format, and the other methods =
can be removed.

=20

=20

/js

=20

=20

Andy

=20

=20


--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/ =
<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D1b82dc7c-4419e639-1b829ce7-867b3=
6d1634c-3d395fcf11781013&q=3D1&e=3Dce6dbbb8-8693-4ac8-abbf-4a2014b77b32&u=
=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F> >


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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>A sentence about the security =
risk of a username/password in the URI will be added to the security =
considerations.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> netmod =
&lt;netmod-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bal=C3=A1zs =
Lengyel<br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 8., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k =
11:17<br><b>To:</b> Andy Bierman =
&lt;andy@yumaworks.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> =
netmod@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>See inline, =
Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Andy Bierman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; =
<br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda 20:50<br><b>To:</b> =
Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</=
a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de">j.schoenwaelder@jaco=
bs-university.de</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a>; Benoit Claise =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com">benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;=
<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
have some questions about the same-schema-as-file =
leaf:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;leaf same-schema-as-file =
{<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;type =
inet:uri;<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;description<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&quot;A reference to another YANG instance data file.<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This instance data file =
uses the same<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
content schema as the referenced file.&quot;;<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The type is an unconstrained =
URI.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Is this the =
intent?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The tool that =
writes the file can pick any scheme - any valid URI at =
all.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The reader must =
support every known URI scheme in existence? Is that the intent =
here?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>BALAZS: As the number of URI =
schemes is growing with new URI schemes introduced from time to time, =
that is clearly impossible. On the other hand, we don=E2=80=99t want to =
constrain URI schemes. This draft is not about selecting the best URI =
schemes for referencing a file, it only about providing a common format =
for metadata about instance files. The set of usable/used URI schemes =
will have to be communicated using some other method. You could ask a =
similar question: does a Netconf client need to be prepared for any YANG =
model? No just for the ones he is interested =
in.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sec. 4 contains this line:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><pre =
style=3D'white-space:pre-wrap'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The header part is not security =
sensitive.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'white-space:pre-wrap'><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Is this really true if a URI is present in this leaf =
that contains a username and password<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>in cleartext?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>BALAZS: Clear text passwords are not the intention. =
Shall I &nbsp;add a statement about this to the security =
considerations?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Andy<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 1:01 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hello =
Andy,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>There are =
many different use-cases for instance-data-files, each with slightly =
different requirements. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Inline =
method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was generated by =
someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations and some features are =
not-supported. There is no way to indicate feature-support and =
deviations with the simplified-inline method.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The URL =
method was requested for the use-case when you generate =
instance-data-sets repeatedly e.g. every minute with the same schema. =
You don=E2=80=99t want to include the content-schema in every file, so =
you just include a single URL reference. (Note the content schema may be =
a longer piece of text, not just a single YANG =
module+revision)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Regards =
Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b>=
 Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. =
j=C3=BAlius 6., kedd 21:28<br><b>To:</b> Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;; Andy =
Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>; =
Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Tue, Jul =
6, 2021 at 11:19 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Tue, Jul 06, =
2021 at 10:56:48AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:<br>&gt; On Tue, Jul 6, =
2021 at 10:42 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:42:39AM -0700, =
Andy Bierman wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; IMO the 4 =
separate ways to identify the schema are 3 too many, but that<br>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; is what the WG wants.&nbsp; It seems obvious that any reader =
of the file<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; has to implement all 4 methods and any =
writer of the file is free to pick<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; just one.<br>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; So the feature does not really help.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The feature statements declare that implementation =
won't work<br>&gt; &gt; together. Back in a day, the IETF was all about =
interoperability (and<br>&gt; &gt; implementation costs). Nowadays we =
seem to be fine if implementations<br>&gt; &gt; declare that they won't =
work together. Well, still slightly better<br>&gt; &gt; than having =
implementations fail arbitrarity.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; This is a text file stored on a USB stick.<br>&gt; There is no =
client or server. Just readers and writers.<br>&gt; So how does a YANG =
feature work here?<br>&gt; The reader is supposed to know how to find =
out if this feature is set<br>&gt; before opening the =
file?<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I don't see how server capabilities discovery is =
relevant to a<br>&gt; YANG instance file.<br>&gt; The reader code will =
simply attempt to read the file and fail if it<br>&gt; =
encounters<br>&gt; a format that is not implemented.<br><br>I assumed =
that the features are carried in the instance file, i.e.,<br>the file =
declares that it uses way X to announce the schema and then<br>the =
parser can fail with a suitable error message. If the features =
are<br>not carried in the file, then they indeed seem to be =
useless.<br><br>Perhaps there are Y different ways to announce the =
features of the<br>instance file as well, I did not check. =
;-)<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Now you =
made re-read the entire draft :-(<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I cannot =
find any text how the reader knows if this feature is set before reading =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>file and =
finding out.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I do not =
see any significant use-case for the Inline method and none for the Uri =
method.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Nor do I =
see any reason why the Simplified-Inline method should not be =
mandatory<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>to use and =
always present.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If the =
use-case is offline server validation then the YANG library details need =
to be known.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The entire =
YANG library for the server (or relevant parts) are recorded in the =
Inline method.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Except it =
is complicated to store the info about how to interpret YANG schema =
by<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>reading =
instance files and guessing what the &quot;anydata&quot; =
contains.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I actually =
prefer a simple string based on RFC 6020 URI method, since it =
can<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>be easily =
integrated into the Simplified Inline form and can be parsed without =
guessing<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>anything =
about the contents of anydata.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5.6.4" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6020#section-5=
.6.4</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>e,g,<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>OLD:<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;case simplified-inline {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;leaf-list module {<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type =
module-with-revision-date;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>NEW:<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;case simplified-inline {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;leaf-list module {<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type union =
{<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;type module-with-revision-date;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;type string;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Example =
module leaf-list entry:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;ietf-interfaces?revision=3D2018-02-20&amp;features=3Dif-mib,arbitra=
ry-names&amp;deviations=3Dacme-deviations<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>IMO =
Simplified Inline SHOULD be the only format, and the other methods can =
be removed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>/js<o:p></o:=
p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Andy<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>-- =
<br>Juergen Schoenwaelder&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Jacobs =
University Bremen gGmbH<br>Phone: +49 421 200 3587&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>Fax:&nbsp; =
&nbsp;+49 421 200 3103&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D1b82dc7c-4419e639-1b829ce=
7-867b36d1634c-3d395fcf11781013&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3Dce6dbbb8-8693-4ac8-abbf=
-4a2014b77b32&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p=
></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></body></h=
tml>
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Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 12:13:26 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs?= Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:30:27AM +0000, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote:
> It is perhaps worth noting that the NETCONF copy-config allows for the configuration to be specified using any URI, but the server capabilities announce which URI schemes are supported.
> 
> Hence, I think that it is okay for the YANG model to use URI, but I think the draft, and data node description should constrain the URI schemes that allowed (perhaps file:// and https://).  This would allow support for future URI schemes to be added in a future revision of the YANG instance data module, if required.
>

I think it is not "allowed" but "mandatory to implement". We should
allow implementations to support an ftps:// scheme as long as there
is a common baseline.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
CC: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/U9abwPrI_wU1su8Obhmyiqr83y8>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Yes, I would be okay with that too.

Regards,
Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Sent: 08 July 2021 11:13
> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> Cc: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy Bierman
> <andy@yumaworks.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:30:27AM +0000, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote:
> > It is perhaps worth noting that the NETCONF copy-config allows for the
> configuration to be specified using any URI, but the server capabilities
> announce which URI schemes are supported.
> >
> > Hence, I think that it is okay for the YANG model to use URI, but I thi=
nk the
> draft, and data node description should constrain the URI schemes that
> allowed (perhaps file:// and https://).  This would allow support for fut=
ure
> URI schemes to be added in a future revision of the YANG instance data
> module, if required.
> >
>=20
> I think it is not "allowed" but "mandatory to implement". We should
> allow implementations to support an ftps:// scheme as long as there
> is a common baseline.
>=20
> /js
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 12:35:28 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs?= Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/labDrNXxx2atldcaP4cZ4i88u0c>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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The question I asked is "how much simpler is it and does that saving
justify the introduction of a new rather limited format (that may risk
to grow over time and become a second citizen)".

So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports
from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that resolves to
ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance data would
roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I am writing this
by hand):

<yang-library>
  <module-set>
    <name>m</name>
    <module>
      <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
      <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
      <namespace>uri1</namespace>
    </module>
    <import-only-module>
      <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
      <namespace>uri2</namespace>
      <revision/>
    </import-only-module>
  </module-set>
  <schema>
    <name>s</name>
    <module-set>m</module-set>
  </schema>
  <datastore>
    <name>running</name>
    <schema>s</schema>
  </datastore>
</yang-library>

Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information (note
that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be needed
anymore).

I am concerned that we start creating another format to define schemas
that is very limited and people later come with extension proposals to
address some of the limits and at the end we have multiple formats to
maintain and deal with. So the question is whether people think this
is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead goes down with every
additional module used by your instance file, so the example above is
really the most extreme case. And if you have many modules defining
NACM rules, then you put the above into a separate file and use the
URI to point to the schema, no?

/js

On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, Balázs Lengyel wrote:
> Hello Jurgen,
> Inline:
> This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlier by other
> reviewers. 
> Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will be simplified to use only
> ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.
> 
> Simplified inline:
> In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most common
> format. 
> If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and don't have,
> 
> don't care about features/deviations it is the easiest, shortest method to
> use.
>  Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access control rules
> for new nodes. 
> When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides a set of
> NACM rules 
> for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.
> In this case you only need to specify "ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22" No
> deviations, no features to indicate.
> Regards Balazs
> 
> Regards Balazs
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> 
> Sent: 2021. július 7., szerda 21:26
> To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> Cc: Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> 
> On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > 
> > > Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was 
> > > generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations and 
> > > some features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate 
> > > feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inline method.
> > 
> > The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
> > Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to use 
> > and takes up much less storage.
> >
> 
> The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an open ended
> set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say
> ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In other
> words, two implementations supporting inline content schema may not
> interoperate. I do not think there is a schema format that is mandatory to
> implement for inline content schema.
> 
> So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of interoperability:
> 
> - Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable
> - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily interoperable
> - URI method pushes the problem to another instance file, interoperable
> - External is by desing not interoperable
> 
> On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some
> complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multiple
> datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand that an
> instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).
> 
> To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good thing. Being
> able to dump a live server datastore into an instance file seems like a very
> valid use case to me and ideally this is possible without having to rewrite
> the schema part. Well, you could go and trim unused datastore schemas and
> from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an external
> tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be done by a tool
> that just dumps a server datastore.
> 
> What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you really save
> compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525 representation? And does that
> saving justify to start engineering another schema specification format?
> 
> I guess my choice would have been to just have
> 
>        +-- content-schema
>        |  +-- (content-schema-spec)?
>        |     +--: (yang-library)
>        |     +--: (uri)
> 
> but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that everything
> sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case other schema
> definition formats are out there).
> 
> /js
> 
> -- 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
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-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
CC: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/aVAZw-sUhx7GaummBMbjKB5lN2c>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hi Juergen,

I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.

I think that you are right to be concerned that it should not expand into a=
 separate parallel format.  Overtime, I would like the simple form to be ab=
le to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but beyond this I thin=
k that it should just be a flat list of modules that defines the schema.  I=
f a subset of features, or datastores, or import-only modules are needed th=
en the YANG library version (or URIs) can and should be used.

Another example of where I expect it to be useful is in YANG packages.  Loo=
king at the examples at the end of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dr=
aft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages, then some of those files (which currently ar=
en't defining any schema, but should) would almost double in size if they r=
epresented the schema inline using YANG library, which I think would make t=
he files harder for humans to read/parse.  Using URIs could help mitigate t=
his, but then we would need to find a place to publish the file containing =
the YANG package schema (presumably somewhere in IANA), and it not obvious =
to me that adding the dependency on the URL is really as helpful.

Regards,
Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35
> To: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> The question I asked is "how much simpler is it and does that saving
> justify the introduction of a new rather limited format (that may risk
> to grow over time and become a second citizen)".
>=20
> So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports
> from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that resolves to
> ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance data would
> roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I am writing this
> by hand):
>=20
> <yang-library>
>   <module-set>
>     <name>m</name>
>     <module>
>       <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
>       <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
>       <namespace>uri1</namespace>
>     </module>
>     <import-only-module>
>       <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
>       <namespace>uri2</namespace>
>       <revision/>
>     </import-only-module>
>   </module-set>
>   <schema>
>     <name>s</name>
>     <module-set>m</module-set>
>   </schema>
>   <datastore>
>     <name>running</name>
>     <schema>s</schema>
>   </datastore>
> </yang-library>
>=20
> Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information (note
> that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be needed
> anymore).
>=20
> I am concerned that we start creating another format to define schemas
> that is very limited and people later come with extension proposals to
> address some of the limits and at the end we have multiple formats to
> maintain and deal with. So the question is whether people think this
> is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead goes down with every
> additional module used by your instance file, so the example above is
> really the most extreme case. And if you have many modules defining
> NACM rules, then you put the above into a separate file and use the
> URI to point to the schema, no?
>=20
> /js
>=20
> On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=E1zs Lengyel wrote:
> > Hello Jurgen,
> > Inline:
> > This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlier by
> other
> > reviewers.
> > Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will be simplified to use on=
ly
> > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.
> >
> > Simplified inline:
> > In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most comm=
on
> > format.
> > If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and don't
> have,
> >
> > don't care about features/deviations it is the easiest, shortest method=
 to
> > use.
> >  Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access control
> rules
> > for new nodes.
> > When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides a
> set of
> > NACM rules
> > for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.
> > In this case you only need to specify "ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22" No
> > deviations, no features to indicate.
> > Regards Balazs
> >
> > Regards Balazs
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 7., szerda 21:26
> > To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> > Cc: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton=
)
> > <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > >
> > > > Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was
> > > > generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations
> and
> > > > some features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate
> > > > feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inline method.
> > >
> > > The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
> > > Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to use
> > > and takes up much less storage.
> > >
> >
> > The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an open en=
ded
> > set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say
> > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In oth=
er
> > words, two implementations supporting inline content schema may not
> > interoperate. I do not think there is a schema format that is mandatory=
 to
> > implement for inline content schema.
> >
> > So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of interoperability:
> >
> > - Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable
> > - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily interoperable
> > - URI method pushes the problem to another instance file, interoperable
> > - External is by desing not interoperable
> >
> > On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some
> > complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multiple
> > datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand that a=
n
> > instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).
> >
> > To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good thing. =
Being
> > able to dump a live server datastore into an instance file seems like a=
 very
> > valid use case to me and ideally this is possible without having to rew=
rite
> > the schema part. Well, you could go and trim unused datastore schemas
> and
> > from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an extern=
al
> > tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be done by a t=
ool
> > that just dumps a server datastore.
> >
> > What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you really s=
ave
> > compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525 representation? And does
> that
> > saving justify to start engineering another schema specification format=
?
> >
> > I guess my choice would have been to just have
> >
> >        +-- content-schema
> >        |  +-- (content-schema-spec)?
> >        |     +--: (yang-library)
> >        |     +--: (uri)
> >
> > but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that everythi=
ng
> > sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case other schema
> > definition formats are out there).
> >
> > /js
> >
> > --
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
> > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d-
> 866038973a
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> a7431111e9bc&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F
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>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/i9mDRbiE-xKu6q-XL4VrTkszsGI>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hello,
I would like to keep simplified inline. If I ask my developers (not =
experts)
which one do they want? I am pretty sure they opt for the =
shorter/simpler
one.
=20
<module>ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14<module>

OR

<yang-library>
  <module-set>
    <name>m</name>
    <module>
      <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
      <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
      <namespace>uri1</namespace>
    </module>
    <import-only-module>
      <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
      <namespace>uri2</namespace>
      <revision/>
    </import-only-module>
  </module-set>
  <schema>
    <name>s</name>
    <module-set>m</module-set>
  </schema>
  <datastore>
    <name>running</name>
    <schema>s</schema>
  </datastore>
</yang-library>

Regards Balazs

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>=20
Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 8., cs=FCt=F6rt=F6k 12:59
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; =
Bal=E1zs
Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
<benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

Hi Juergen,

I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.

I think that you are right to be concerned that it should not expand =
into a
separate parallel format.  Overtime, I would like the simple form to be =
able
to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but beyond this I =
think
that it should just be a flat list of modules that defines the schema.  =
If a
subset of features, or datastores, or import-only modules are needed =
then
the YANG library version (or URIs) can and should be used.

Another example of where I expect it to be useful is in YANG packages.
Looking at the examples at the end of
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages, =
then
some of those files (which currently aren't defining any schema, but =
should)
would almost double in size if they represented the schema inline using =
YANG
library, which I think would make the files harder for humans to =
read/parse.
Using URIs could help mitigate this, but then we would need to find a =
place
to publish the file containing the YANG package schema (presumably =
somewhere
in IANA), and it not obvious to me that adding the dependency on the URL =
is
really as helpful.

Regards,
Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35
> To: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)=20
> <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise=20
> <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> The question I asked is "how much simpler is it and does that saving=20
> justify the introduction of a new rather limited format (that may risk =

> to grow over time and become a second citizen)".
>=20
> So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports=20
> from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that resolves to=20
> ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance data would=20
> roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I am writing this=20
> by hand):
>=20
> <yang-library>
>   <module-set>
>     <name>m</name>
>     <module>
>       <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
>       <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
>       <namespace>uri1</namespace>
>     </module>
>     <import-only-module>
>       <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
>       <namespace>uri2</namespace>
>       <revision/>
>     </import-only-module>
>   </module-set>
>   <schema>
>     <name>s</name>
>     <module-set>m</module-set>
>   </schema>
>   <datastore>
>     <name>running</name>
>     <schema>s</schema>
>   </datastore>
> </yang-library>
>=20
> Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information (note=20
> that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be needed=20
> anymore).
>=20
> I am concerned that we start creating another format to define schemas =

> that is very limited and people later come with extension proposals to =

> address some of the limits and at the end we have multiple formats to=20
> maintain and deal with. So the question is whether people think this=20
> is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead goes down with every=20
> additional module used by your instance file, so the example above is=20
> really the most extreme case. And if you have many modules defining=20
> NACM rules, then you put the above into a separate file and use the=20
> URI to point to the schema, no?
>=20
> /js
>=20
> On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=E1zs Lengyel wrote:
> > Hello Jurgen,
> > Inline:
> > This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlier=20
> > by
> other
> > reviewers.
> > Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will be simplified to use =

> > only
> > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.
> >
> > Simplified inline:
> > In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most=20
> > common format.
> > If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and=20
> > don't
> have,
> >
> > don't care about features/deviations it is the easiest, shortest=20
> > method to use.
> >  Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access control
> rules
> > for new nodes.
> > When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides a
> set of
> > NACM rules
> > for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.
> > In this case you only need to specify "ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22"=20
> > No deviations, no features to indicate.
> > Regards Balazs
> >
> > Regards Balazs
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 7., szerda 21:26
> > To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> > Cc: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Rob Wilton=20
> > (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise=20
> > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > Subject: Re: AD review of=20
> > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > >
> > > > Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file=20
> > > > was generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with=20
> > > > deviations
> and
> > > > some features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate=20
> > > > feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inline =
method.
> > >
> > > The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
> > > Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to=20
> > > use and takes up much less storage.
> > >
> >
> > The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an open =

> > ended set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say=20
> > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In=20
> > other words, two implementations supporting inline content schema=20
> > may not interoperate. I do not think there is a schema format that=20
> > is mandatory to implement for inline content schema.
> >
> > So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of =
interoperability:
> >
> > - Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable
> > - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily=20
> > interoperable
> > - URI method pushes the problem to another instance file,=20
> > interoperable
> > - External is by desing not interoperable
> >
> > On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some=20
> > complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multiple =

> > datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand=20
> > that an instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).
> >
> > To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good=20
> > thing. Being able to dump a live server datastore into an instance=20
> > file seems like a very valid use case to me and ideally this is=20
> > possible without having to rewrite the schema part. Well, you could=20
> > go and trim unused datastore schemas
> and
> > from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an=20
> > external tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be =

> > done by a tool that just dumps a server datastore.
> >
> > What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you=20
> > really save compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525=20
> > representation? And does
> that
> > saving justify to start engineering another schema specification =
format?
> >
> > I guess my choice would have been to just have
> >
> >        +-- content-schema
> >        |  +-- (content-schema-spec)?
> >        |     +--: (yang-library)
> >        |     +--: (uri)
> >
> > but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that=20
> > everything sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case=20
> > other schema definition formats are out there).
> >
> > /js
> >
> > --
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | =
Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
> > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d-
> 866038973a
> > 15-19e5dad375af0063&q=3D1&e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-
> a7431111e9bc&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F
> > %2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7edafb8e-2141c2bf-7edabb15-86e22=
37f51
fb-eceadf4f1dc08461&q=3D1&e=3D09140141-b70c-44c9-9909-048d736efebf&u=3Dht=
tps%3A%2F
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Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 14:33:16 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs?= Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Message-ID: <20210708123316.hep6zythak75cbf4@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/zR0NlMza_T0NlWuNsqhEuOFjx2Q>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 10:58:37AM +0000, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote:
> Hi Juergen,
> 
> I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.
> 
> I think that you are right to be concerned that it should not expand into a separate parallel format.  Overtime, I would like the simple form to be able to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but beyond this I think that it should just be a flat list of modules that defines the schema.  If a subset of features, or datastores, or import-only modules are needed then the YANG library version (or URIs) can and should be used.
>

A tool that does something useful, such as checking an instance file
against a schema, likely needs to have more information than just a
module name with a revision identifier to do the job well. Anyway, if
people feel strongly that this optimization is essential, I will shut
up and watch what happens to this over time. ;-)

> Another example of where I expect it to be useful is in YANG packages.  Looking at the examples at the end of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages, then some of those files (which currently aren't defining any schema, but should) would almost double in size if they represented the schema inline using YANG library, which I think would make the files harder for humans to read/parse.  Using URIs could help mitigate this, but then we would need to find a place to publish the file containing the YANG package schema (presumably somewhere in IANA), and it not obvious to me that adding the dependency on the URL is really as helpful.

Once there are YANG packages and there is a new way to describe a
schema, you likely want to augment in a new choice. So I am not
convinced by this argument.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>, "Juergen Schoenwaelder" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
CC: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/0BNNQKBT4uBqoGSfgBpDzQTXhoU>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hi Balazs,

Would your inline schema not also need to specify the ietf-yang-types depen=
dency?

E.g., should it be:
ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14
ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15

Thanks,
Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> Sent: 08 July 2021 12:48
> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Juergen Schoenwaelder
> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> Hello,
> I would like to keep simplified inline. If I ask my developers (not exper=
ts)
> which one do they want? I am pretty sure they opt for the shorter/simpler
> one.
>=20
> <module>ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14<module>
>=20
> OR
>=20
> <yang-library>
>   <module-set>
>     <name>m</name>
>     <module>
>       <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
>       <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
>       <namespace>uri1</namespace>
>     </module>
>     <import-only-module>
>       <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
>       <namespace>uri2</namespace>
>       <revision/>
>     </import-only-module>
>   </module-set>
>   <schema>
>     <name>s</name>
>     <module-set>m</module-set>
>   </schema>
>   <datastore>
>     <name>running</name>
>     <schema>s</schema>
>   </datastore>
> </yang-library>
>=20
> Regards Balazs
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 8., cs=FCt=F6rt=F6k 12:59
> To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; Bal=E1z=
s
> Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> Hi Juergen,
>=20
> I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.
>=20
> I think that you are right to be concerned that it should not expand into=
 a
> separate parallel format.  Overtime, I would like the simple form to be a=
ble
> to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but beyond this I think
> that it should just be a flat list of modules that defines the schema.  I=
f a
> subset of features, or datastores, or import-only modules are needed then
> the YANG library version (or URIs) can and should be used.
>=20
> Another example of where I expect it to be useful is in YANG packages.
> Looking at the examples at the end of
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages, th=
en
> some of those files (which currently aren't defining any schema, but shou=
ld)
> would almost double in size if they represented the schema inline using
> YANG
> library, which I think would make the files harder for humans to read/par=
se.
> Using URIs could help mitigate this, but then we would need to find a pla=
ce
> to publish the file containing the YANG package schema (presumably
> somewhere
> in IANA), and it not obvious to me that adding the dependency on the URL =
is
> really as helpful.
>=20
> Regards,
> Rob
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35
> > To: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> > Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> > <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> >
> > The question I asked is "how much simpler is it and does that saving
> > justify the introduction of a new rather limited format (that may risk
> > to grow over time and become a second citizen)".
> >
> > So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports
> > from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that resolves to
> > ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance data would
> > roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I am writing this
> > by hand):
> >
> > <yang-library>
> >   <module-set>
> >     <name>m</name>
> >     <module>
> >       <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
> >       <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
> >       <namespace>uri1</namespace>
> >     </module>
> >     <import-only-module>
> >       <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
> >       <namespace>uri2</namespace>
> >       <revision/>
> >     </import-only-module>
> >   </module-set>
> >   <schema>
> >     <name>s</name>
> >     <module-set>m</module-set>
> >   </schema>
> >   <datastore>
> >     <name>running</name>
> >     <schema>s</schema>
> >   </datastore>
> > </yang-library>
> >
> > Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information (note
> > that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be needed
> > anymore).
> >
> > I am concerned that we start creating another format to define schemas
> > that is very limited and people later come with extension proposals to
> > address some of the limits and at the end we have multiple formats to
> > maintain and deal with. So the question is whether people think this
> > is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead goes down with every
> > additional module used by your instance file, so the example above is
> > really the most extreme case. And if you have many modules defining
> > NACM rules, then you put the above into a separate file and use the
> > URI to point to the schema, no?
> >
> > /js
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=E1zs Lengyel wrote:
> > > Hello Jurgen,
> > > Inline:
> > > This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlier
> > > by
> > other
> > > reviewers.
> > > Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will be simplified to use
> > > only
> > > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.
> > >
> > > Simplified inline:
> > > In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most
> > > common format.
> > > If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and
> > > don't
> > have,
> > >
> > > don't care about features/deviations it is the easiest, shortest
> > > method to use.
> > >  Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access control
> > rules
> > > for new nodes.
> > > When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides a
> > set of
> > > NACM rules
> > > for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.
> > > In this case you only need to specify "ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22"
> > > No deviations, no features to indicate.
> > > Regards Balazs
> > >
> > > Regards Balazs
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > > Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 7., szerda 21:26
> > > To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> > > Cc: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Rob Wilton
> > > (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> > > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > > Subject: Re: AD review of
> > > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file
> > > > > was generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with
> > > > > deviations
> > and
> > > > > some features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate
> > > > > feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inline method.
> > > >
> > > > The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
> > > > Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to
> > > > use and takes up much less storage.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an open
> > > ended set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say
> > > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In
> > > other words, two implementations supporting inline content schema
> > > may not interoperate. I do not think there is a schema format that
> > > is mandatory to implement for inline content schema.
> > >
> > > So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of interoperability=
:
> > >
> > > - Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable
> > > - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily
> > > interoperable
> > > - URI method pushes the problem to another instance file,
> > > interoperable
> > > - External is by desing not interoperable
> > >
> > > On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some
> > > complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multiple
> > > datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand
> > > that an instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).
> > >
> > > To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good
> > > thing. Being able to dump a live server datastore into an instance
> > > file seems like a very valid use case to me and ideally this is
> > > possible without having to rewrite the schema part. Well, you could
> > > go and trim unused datastore schemas
> > and
> > > from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an
> > > external tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be
> > > done by a tool that just dumps a server datastore.
> > >
> > > What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you
> > > really save compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525
> > > representation? And does
> > that
> > > saving justify to start engineering another schema specification form=
at?
> > >
> > > I guess my choice would have been to just have
> > >
> > >        +-- content-schema
> > >        |  +-- (content-schema-spec)?
> > >        |     +--: (yang-library)
> > >        |     +--: (uri)
> > >
> > > but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that
> > > everything sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case
> > > other schema definition formats are out there).
> > >
> > > /js
> > >
> > > --
> > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German=
y
> > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
> > > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d-
> > 866038973a
> > > 15-19e5dad375af0063&q=3D1&e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-
> > a7431111e9bc&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F
> > > %2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
> <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7edafb8e-2141c2bf-7edabb15-
> 86e2237f51
> fb-eceadf4f1dc08461&q=3D1&e=3D09140141-b70c-44c9-9909-
> 048d736efebf&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F
> %2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F>


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 09:54:43 -0700
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To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>,  "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 3:58 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Hi Juergen,
>
> I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.
>
>

I believe it is the only option that does not have too much complexity.

The inline form seems to imply that the NMDA version of the YANG library is
used.
Only 1 module set is ever shown, but of course the actual schema allows
for much more complex instances than that, which the reader must support.

Does this mean NMDA must be used or else a YANG data file cannot be saved?
So the reader is expected to look for the 'current' /yang-library and then
the 'deprecated' /modules-state?
And then fish the anydata for whatever non-standard solution is in use?
The procedures should be explained better so there is a better chance of
interoperability.

For the URI method, the reader must check for a broken chain of reference
and loops.
The draft should say the uri references across N files MUST NOT create a
loop
(similar language is in YANG wrt import loops).

For conformance purposes, I think YANG features are appropriate.
IMO simplified-inline is mandatory-to-implement but the rest should
be optional. This way a tool can claim conformance and also the standard
will provide a minimum level of interoperability.


Andy





> I think that you are right to be concerned that it should not expand into
> a separate parallel format.  Overtime, I would like the simple form to be
> able to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but beyond this I
> think that it should just be a flat list of modules that defines the
> schema.  If a subset of features, or datastores, or import-only modules a=
re
> needed then the YANG library version (or URIs) can and should be used.
>
>
This can be done with augment if and when the versioning draft reaches RFC


> Another example of where I expect it to be useful is in YANG packages.
> Looking at the examples at the end of
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages,
> then some of those files (which currently aren't defining any schema, but
> should) would almost double in size if they represented the schema inline
> using YANG library, which I think would make the files harder for humans =
to
> read/parse.  Using URIs could help mitigate this, but then we would need =
to
> find a place to publish the file containing the YANG package schema
> (presumably somewhere in IANA), and it not obvious to me that adding the
> dependency on the URL is really as helpful.
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35
> > To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> > Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> > <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> >
> > The question I asked is "how much simpler is it and does that saving
> > justify the introduction of a new rather limited format (that may risk
> > to grow over time and become a second citizen)".
> >
> > So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports
> > from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that resolves to
> > ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance data would
> > roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I am writing this
> > by hand):
> >
> > <yang-library>
> >   <module-set>
> >     <name>m</name>
> >     <module>
> >       <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
> >       <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
> >       <namespace>uri1</namespace>
> >     </module>
> >     <import-only-module>
> >       <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
> >       <namespace>uri2</namespace>
> >       <revision/>
> >     </import-only-module>
> >   </module-set>
> >   <schema>
> >     <name>s</name>
> >     <module-set>m</module-set>
> >   </schema>
> >   <datastore>
> >     <name>running</name>
> >     <schema>s</schema>
> >   </datastore>
> > </yang-library>
> >
> > Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information (note
> > that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be needed
> > anymore).
> >
> > I am concerned that we start creating another format to define schemas
> > that is very limited and people later come with extension proposals to
> > address some of the limits and at the end we have multiple formats to
> > maintain and deal with. So the question is whether people think this
> > is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead goes down with every
> > additional module used by your instance file, so the example above is
> > really the most extreme case. And if you have many modules defining
> > NACM rules, then you put the above into a separate file and use the
> > URI to point to the schema, no?
> >
> > /js
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote:
> > > Hello Jurgen,
> > > Inline:
> > > This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlier by
> > other
> > > reviewers.
> > > Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will be simplified to use
> only
> > > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.
> > >
> > > Simplified inline:
> > > In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most
> common
> > > format.
> > > If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and don'=
t
> > have,
> > >
> > > don't care about features/deviations it is the easiest, shortest
> method to
> > > use.
> > >  Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access control
> > rules
> > > for new nodes.
> > > When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides a
> > set of
> > > NACM rules
> > > for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.
> > > In this case you only need to specify "ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22" No
> > > deviations, no features to indicate.
> > > Regards Balazs
> > >
> > > Regards Balazs
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > > Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda 21:26
> > > To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> > > Cc: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Rob Wilton (rw=
ilton)
> > > <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> > > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > > Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file wa=
s
> > > > > generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations
> > and
> > > > > some features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate
> > > > > feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inline method.
> > > >
> > > > The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
> > > > Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to us=
e
> > > > and takes up much less storage.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an open
> ended
> > > set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say
> > > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In
> other
> > > words, two implementations supporting inline content schema may not
> > > interoperate. I do not think there is a schema format that is
> mandatory to
> > > implement for inline content schema.
> > >
> > > So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of interoperability=
:
> > >
> > > - Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable
> > > - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily interoperab=
le
> > > - URI method pushes the problem to another instance file, interoperab=
le
> > > - External is by desing not interoperable
> > >
> > > On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some
> > > complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multiple
> > > datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand that
> an
> > > instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).
> > >
> > > To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good thing=
.
> Being
> > > able to dump a live server datastore into an instance file seems like
> a very
> > > valid use case to me and ideally this is possible without having to
> rewrite
> > > the schema part. Well, you could go and trim unused datastore schemas
> > and
> > > from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an
> external
> > > tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be done by a
> tool
> > > that just dumps a server datastore.
> > >
> > > What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you really
> save
> > > compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525 representation? And does
> > that
> > > saving justify to start engineering another schema specification
> format?
> > >
> > > I guess my choice would have been to just have
> > >
> > >        +-- content-schema
> > >        |  +-- (content-schema-spec)?
> > >        |     +--: (yang-library)
> > >        |     +--: (uri)
> > >
> > > but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that
> everything
> > > sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case other schema
> > > definition formats are out there).
> > >
> > > /js
> > >
> > > --
> > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German=
y
> > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
> > > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d-
> > 866038973a
> > > 15-19e5dad375af0063&q=3D1&e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-
> > a7431111e9bc&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F
> > > %2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 3:58 AM Rob Wi=
lton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi=
 Juergen,<br>
<br>
I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I believe it is the onl=
y option that does not have too much complexity.</div><div><br></div><div>T=
he inline form seems to imply that the NMDA version of the YANG library is =
used.</div><div>Only 1 module set is ever shown, but of course the actual s=
chema allows</div><div>for much more complex instances than that, which the=
 reader must support.</div><div><br></div><div>Does this mean NMDA must be =
used or else a YANG data file cannot be saved?</div><div>So the reader is e=
xpected to look for the &#39;current&#39; /yang-library and then the &#39;d=
eprecated&#39; /modules-state?</div><div>And then fish the anydata for what=
ever non-standard solution is in use?</div><div>The procedures should be ex=
plained better so there is a better chance of interoperability.</div><div><=
br></div><div>For the URI method, the reader must check for a broken chain =
of reference and loops.</div><div>The draft should say the uri references a=
cross N files MUST NOT create a loop</div><div>(similar language is in YANG=
 wrt import loops).</div><div><br></div><div>For conformance purposes, I th=
ink YANG features are appropriate.</div><div>IMO simplified-inline is manda=
tory-to-implement but the rest should=C2=A0</div><div>be optional. This way=
 a tool can claim conformance and also the standard</div><div>will provide =
a minimum level of interoperability.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><di=
v>Andy</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I think that you are right to be concerned that it should not expand into a=
 separate parallel format.=C2=A0 Overtime, I would like the simple form to =
be able to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but beyond this I=
 think that it should just be a flat list of modules that defines the schem=
a.=C2=A0 If a subset of features, or datastores, or import-only modules are=
 needed then the YANG library version (or URIs) can and should be used.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This can be done with augment if and w=
hen the versioning draft reaches RFC</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Another example of where I expect it to be useful is in YANG packages.=C2=
=A0 Looking at the examples at the end of <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-pa=
ckages</a>, then some of those files (which currently aren&#39;t defining a=
ny schema, but should) would almost double in size if they represented the =
schema inline using YANG library, which I think would make the files harder=
 for humans to read/parse.=C2=A0 Using URIs could help mitigate this, but t=
hen we would need to find a place to publish the file containing the YANG p=
ackage schema (presumably somewhere in IANA), and it not obvious to me that=
 adding the dependency on the URL is really as helpful.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Rob<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jaco=
bs-university.de" target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a=
>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35<br>
&gt; To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.=
com" target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_=
blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilton)<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cis=
co.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod=
@ietf.org</a>; Benoit Claise<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">beno=
it.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The question I asked is &quot;how much simpler is it and does that sav=
ing<br>
&gt; justify the introduction of a new rather limited format (that may risk=
<br>
&gt; to grow over time and become a second citizen)&quot;.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports<br=
>
&gt; from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that resolves to<br>
&gt; ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance data would<br=
>
&gt; roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I am writing this<=
br>
&gt; by hand):<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &lt;yang-library&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;module-set&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;m&lt;/name&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;module&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;ietf-netconf-acm&lt;/name&gt;<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;revision&gt;2018-02-14&lt;/revision&gt;<=
br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;namespace&gt;uri1&lt;/namespace&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/module&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;import-only-module&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;ietf-yang-types&lt;/name&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;namespace&gt;uri2&lt;/namespace&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;revision/&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/import-only-module&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/module-set&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;schema&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;s&lt;/name&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;module-set&gt;m&lt;/module-set&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/schema&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;datastore&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;running&lt;/name&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;schema&gt;s&lt;/schema&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/datastore&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;/yang-library&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information (note<=
br>
&gt; that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be needed<br>
&gt; anymore).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I am concerned that we start creating another format to define schemas=
<br>
&gt; that is very limited and people later come with extension proposals to=
<br>
&gt; address some of the limits and at the end we have multiple formats to<=
br>
&gt; maintain and deal with. So the question is whether people think this<b=
r>
&gt; is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead goes down with every<br>
&gt; additional module used by your instance file, so the example above is<=
br>
&gt; really the most extreme case. And if you have many modules defining<br=
>
&gt; NACM rules, then you put the above into a separate file and use the<br=
>
&gt; URI to point to the schema, no?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; /js<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote:<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; Hello Jurgen,<br>
&gt; &gt; Inline:<br>
&gt; &gt; This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlie=
r by<br>
&gt; other<br>
&gt; &gt; reviewers.<br>
&gt; &gt; Based on Rob&#39;s and others&#39; proposal inline will be simpli=
fied to use only<br>
&gt; &gt; ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Simplified inline:<br>
&gt; &gt; In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the mos=
t common<br>
&gt; &gt; format.<br>
&gt; &gt; If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and =
don&#39;t<br>
&gt; have,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; don&#39;t care about features/deviations it is the easiest, short=
est method to<br>
&gt; &gt; use.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access=
 control<br>
&gt; rules<br>
&gt; &gt; for new nodes.<br>
&gt; &gt; When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides=
 a<br>
&gt; set of<br>
&gt; &gt; NACM rules<br>
&gt; &gt; for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.<br>
&gt; &gt; In this case you only need to specify &quot;ietf-neconf-acm@2012-=
02-22&quot; No<br>
&gt; &gt; deviations, no features to indicate.<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards Balazs<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards Balazs<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder=
@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.=
de</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda 21:26<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=
=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@eric=
sson.com" target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton=
 (rwilton)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rwilto=
n@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">n=
etmod@ietf.org</a>; Benoit Claise<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-fo=
rmat<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that t=
he file was<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with de=
viations<br>
&gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; some features are not-supported. There is no way to ind=
icate<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inli=
ne method.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easie=
r to use<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; and takes up much less storage.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an o=
pen ended<br>
&gt; &gt; set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say<br>
&gt; &gt; ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. =
In other<br>
&gt; &gt; words, two implementations supporting inline content schema may n=
ot<br>
&gt; &gt; interoperate. I do not think there is a schema format that is man=
datory to<br>
&gt; &gt; implement for inline content schema.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of interoperabi=
lity:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; - Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperabl=
e<br>
&gt; &gt; - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily interop=
erable<br>
&gt; &gt; - URI method pushes the problem to another instance file, interop=
erable<br>
&gt; &gt; - External is by desing not interoperable<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has so=
me<br>
&gt; &gt; complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multi=
ple<br>
&gt; &gt; datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand =
that an<br>
&gt; &gt; instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good t=
hing. Being<br>
&gt; &gt; able to dump a live server datastore into an instance file seems =
like a very<br>
&gt; &gt; valid use case to me and ideally this is possible without having =
to rewrite<br>
&gt; &gt; the schema part. Well, you could go and trim unused datastore sch=
emas<br>
&gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt; from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an =
external<br>
&gt; &gt; tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be done =
by a tool<br>
&gt; &gt; that just dumps a server datastore.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you re=
ally save<br>
&gt; &gt; compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525 representation? And =
does<br>
&gt; that<br>
&gt; &gt; saving justify to start engineering another schema specification =
format?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I guess my choice would have been to just have<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-- content-schema<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 +-- (content-schema-spec)?<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--: (yang-librar=
y)<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--: (uri)<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that ev=
erything<br>
&gt; &gt; sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case other schem=
a<br>
&gt; &gt; definition formats are out there).<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; /js<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt; Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jac=
obs University Bremen gGmbH<br>
&gt; &gt; Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus R=
ing 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>
&gt; &gt; Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a=
11ef1cd-fe85887d-" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://protect2.fi=
reeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d-</a><br>
&gt; 866038973a<br>
&gt; &gt; 15-19e5dad375af0063&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-<br=
>
&gt; a7431111e9bc&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F<br>
&gt; &gt; %<a href=3D"http://2Fwww.jacobs-university.de" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">2Fwww.jacobs-university.de</a>%2F&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs U=
niversity Bremen gGmbH<br>
&gt; Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1=
 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>
&gt; Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt=
;<a href=3D"https://www.jacobs-university.de/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">https://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 10:16:29 -0700
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To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/hQ3nfeqKPAPx7H4mrUcwu89LVLA>
Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
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Hi,

The module has this object:

    leaf includes-defaults {
       type enumeration {
         enum report-all {
           value 1;
           description
             "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
               any default values.";
         }
         enum trim {
           value 2;
           description
             "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
               the actual value is the default value SHOULD
               NOT be included.";
         }
         enum explicit {
           value 3;
           description
             "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
               the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
               included. However, if the actual value was set by
               a NETCONF client or other management application
               by the way of an explicit management operation the
               data node SHOULD be included.";
         }
       }
       default trim;


The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this
leaf is too server-centric to ignore.

Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF
server.
This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct.

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also
know the YANG defaults.  The solution is incomplete anyway because
the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.
The  "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults.
IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown".


Andy

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>The module has this object:</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap">    =
leaf includes-defaults {
       type enumeration {
         enum report-all {
           value 1;
           description
             &quot;All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
               any default values.&quot;;
         }
         enum trim {
           value 2;
           description
             &quot;Data nodes that have a default defined and where
               the actual value is the default value SHOULD
               NOT be included.&quot;;
         }
         enum explicit {
           value 3;
           description
             &quot;Data nodes that have a default defined and where
               the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
               included. However, if the actual value was set by
               a NETCONF client or other management application
               by the way of an explicit management operation the
               data node SHOULD be included.&quot;;
         }
       }
       default trim;</pre><pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wr=
ap"><br></pre>The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standar=
ds, but this</div><div>leaf is too server-centric to ignore.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NE=
TCONF server.</div><div>This data may not be known so the default of &quot;=
trim&quot; may not be correct.</div><div><br></div><div>IMO this leaf is no=
ise because any tool that knows the schema will also</div><div>know the YAN=
G defaults.=C2=A0 The solution is incomplete anyway because</div><div>the p=
resence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.</div><div>The=C2=
=A0 &quot;report-all-tagged&quot; mode must be used to identify defaults.</=
div><div>IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called &=
quot;unknown&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=
<br></div><div><br></div></div>

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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 13:37:55 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHSMPZJmRbFOn_cXQqsHYsgOECFk5Dnr8pxeLR80bqnNMQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>,  "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/ZozBpJJOdqqAMon0OpOVb69TEko>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 3:58 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Hi Juergen,
>
> I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.
>
> I think that you are right to be concerned that it should not expand into
> a separate parallel format.  Overtime, I would like the simple form to be
> able to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but beyond this I
> think that it should just be a flat list of modules that defines the
> schema.  If a subset of features, or datastores, or import-only modules a=
re
> needed then the YANG library version (or URIs) can and should be used.
>
> Another example of where I expect it to be useful is in YANG packages.
> Looking at the examples at the end of
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages,
> then some of those files (which currently aren't defining any schema, but
> should) would almost double in size if they represented the schema inline
> using YANG library, which I think would make the files harder for humans =
to
> read/parse.  Using URIs could help mitigate this, but then we would need =
to
> find a place to publish the file containing the YANG package schema
> (presumably somewhere in IANA), and it not obvious to me that adding the
> dependency on the URL is really as helpful.
>
>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bierman-netmod-yang-conformance=
-00

An original use-case in my 2013 draft was to allow a vendor to define a
package
that represented the entire server. Then the entire <hello> and YANG
library can
be replaced by one package-id in this case. This is reasonable for embedded
devices
that have a fixed YANG library (expected for CORECONF).

BTW, the main reason I proposed the YANG syntax (your version has a JSON
document)
is that these files are needed by automation tools, and YANG allows
extensions
(and other things like augment). Automation tools cannot work without
extensions
so not sure how JSON package files will be useful to them.


Regards,
> Rob
>

Andy


>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35
> > To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> > Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> > <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> >
> > The question I asked is "how much simpler is it and does that saving
> > justify the introduction of a new rather limited format (that may risk
> > to grow over time and become a second citizen)".
> >
> > So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports
> > from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that resolves to
> > ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance data would
> > roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I am writing this
> > by hand):
> >
> > <yang-library>
> >   <module-set>
> >     <name>m</name>
> >     <module>
> >       <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
> >       <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
> >       <namespace>uri1</namespace>
> >     </module>
> >     <import-only-module>
> >       <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
> >       <namespace>uri2</namespace>
> >       <revision/>
> >     </import-only-module>
> >   </module-set>
> >   <schema>
> >     <name>s</name>
> >     <module-set>m</module-set>
> >   </schema>
> >   <datastore>
> >     <name>running</name>
> >     <schema>s</schema>
> >   </datastore>
> > </yang-library>
> >
> > Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information (note
> > that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be needed
> > anymore).
> >
> > I am concerned that we start creating another format to define schemas
> > that is very limited and people later come with extension proposals to
> > address some of the limits and at the end we have multiple formats to
> > maintain and deal with. So the question is whether people think this
> > is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead goes down with every
> > additional module used by your instance file, so the example above is
> > really the most extreme case. And if you have many modules defining
> > NACM rules, then you put the above into a separate file and use the
> > URI to point to the schema, no?
> >
> > /js
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote:
> > > Hello Jurgen,
> > > Inline:
> > > This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlier by
> > other
> > > reviewers.
> > > Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will be simplified to use
> only
> > > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.
> > >
> > > Simplified inline:
> > > In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most
> common
> > > format.
> > > If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and don'=
t
> > have,
> > >
> > > don't care about features/deviations it is the easiest, shortest
> method to
> > > use.
> > >  Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access control
> > rules
> > > for new nodes.
> > > When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides a
> > set of
> > > NACM rules
> > > for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.
> > > In this case you only need to specify "ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22" No
> > > deviations, no features to indicate.
> > > Regards Balazs
> > >
> > > Regards Balazs
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > > Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda 21:26
> > > To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> > > Cc: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Rob Wilton (rw=
ilton)
> > > <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> > > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > > Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file wa=
s
> > > > > generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations
> > and
> > > > > some features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate
> > > > > feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inline method.
> > > >
> > > > The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
> > > > Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to us=
e
> > > > and takes up much less storage.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an open
> ended
> > > set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say
> > > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In
> other
> > > words, two implementations supporting inline content schema may not
> > > interoperate. I do not think there is a schema format that is
> mandatory to
> > > implement for inline content schema.
> > >
> > > So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of interoperability=
:
> > >
> > > - Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable
> > > - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily interoperab=
le
> > > - URI method pushes the problem to another instance file, interoperab=
le
> > > - External is by desing not interoperable
> > >
> > > On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some
> > > complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multiple
> > > datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand that
> an
> > > instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).
> > >
> > > To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good thing=
.
> Being
> > > able to dump a live server datastore into an instance file seems like
> a very
> > > valid use case to me and ideally this is possible without having to
> rewrite
> > > the schema part. Well, you could go and trim unused datastore schemas
> > and
> > > from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an
> external
> > > tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be done by a
> tool
> > > that just dumps a server datastore.
> > >
> > > What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you really
> save
> > > compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525 representation? And does
> > that
> > > saving justify to start engineering another schema specification
> format?
> > >
> > > I guess my choice would have been to just have
> > >
> > >        +-- content-schema
> > >        |  +-- (content-schema-spec)?
> > >        |     +--: (yang-library)
> > >        |     +--: (uri)
> > >
> > > but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that
> everything
> > > sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case other schema
> > > definition formats are out there).
> > >
> > > /js
> > >
> > > --
> > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German=
y
> > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
> > > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d-
> > 866038973a
> > > 15-19e5dad375af0063&q=3D1&e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-
> > a7431111e9bc&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F
> > > %2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 3:58 AM Rob Wi=
lton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi=
 Juergen,<br>
<br>
I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.<br>
<br>
I think that you are right to be concerned that it should not expand into a=
 separate parallel format.=C2=A0 Overtime, I would like the simple form to =
be able to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but beyond this I=
 think that it should just be a flat list of modules that defines the schem=
a.=C2=A0 If a subset of features, or datastores, or import-only modules are=
 needed then the YANG library version (or URIs) can and should be used.<br>
<br>
Another example of where I expect it to be useful is in YANG packages.=C2=
=A0 Looking at the examples at the end of <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-pa=
ckages</a>, then some of those files (which currently aren&#39;t defining a=
ny schema, but should) would almost double in size if they represented the =
schema inline using YANG library, which I think would make the files harder=
 for humans to read/parse.=C2=A0 Using URIs could help mitigate this, but t=
hen we would need to find a place to publish the file containing the YANG p=
ackage schema (presumably somewhere in IANA), and it not obvious to me that=
 adding the dependency on the URL is really as helpful.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/html/draft-bierman-netmod-yang-conformance-00">https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/html/draft-bierman-netmod-yang-conformance-00</a><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>An original use-case in my 2013 draft was to allow a vendor =
to define a package</div><div>that represented the entire server. Then the =
entire &lt;hello&gt; and YANG library can</div><div>be replaced by one pack=
age-id in this case. This is reasonable for embedded devices</div><div>that=
 have a fixed YANG library (expected for CORECONF).</div><div><br></div><di=
v>BTW, the main reason I proposed the YANG syntax (your version has a JSON =
document)</div><div>is that these files are needed by automation tools, and=
 YANG allows extensions</div><div>(and other things like augment). Automati=
on tools cannot work without extensions</div><div>so not sure how JSON pack=
age files will be useful to them.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Regards,<br>
Rob<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jaco=
bs-university.de" target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a=
>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35<br>
&gt; To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.=
com" target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_=
blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilton)<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cis=
co.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod=
@ietf.org</a>; Benoit Claise<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">beno=
it.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The question I asked is &quot;how much simpler is it and does that sav=
ing<br>
&gt; justify the introduction of a new rather limited format (that may risk=
<br>
&gt; to grow over time and become a second citizen)&quot;.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports<br=
>
&gt; from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that resolves to<br>
&gt; ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance data would<br=
>
&gt; roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I am writing this<=
br>
&gt; by hand):<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &lt;yang-library&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;module-set&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;m&lt;/name&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;module&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;ietf-netconf-acm&lt;/name&gt;<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;revision&gt;2018-02-14&lt;/revision&gt;<=
br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;namespace&gt;uri1&lt;/namespace&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/module&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;import-only-module&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;ietf-yang-types&lt;/name&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;namespace&gt;uri2&lt;/namespace&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;revision/&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/import-only-module&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/module-set&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;schema&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;s&lt;/name&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;module-set&gt;m&lt;/module-set&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/schema&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;datastore&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;running&lt;/name&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;schema&gt;s&lt;/schema&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/datastore&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;/yang-library&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information (note<=
br>
&gt; that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be needed<br>
&gt; anymore).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I am concerned that we start creating another format to define schemas=
<br>
&gt; that is very limited and people later come with extension proposals to=
<br>
&gt; address some of the limits and at the end we have multiple formats to<=
br>
&gt; maintain and deal with. So the question is whether people think this<b=
r>
&gt; is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead goes down with every<br>
&gt; additional module used by your instance file, so the example above is<=
br>
&gt; really the most extreme case. And if you have many modules defining<br=
>
&gt; NACM rules, then you put the above into a separate file and use the<br=
>
&gt; URI to point to the schema, no?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; /js<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote:<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; Hello Jurgen,<br>
&gt; &gt; Inline:<br>
&gt; &gt; This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlie=
r by<br>
&gt; other<br>
&gt; &gt; reviewers.<br>
&gt; &gt; Based on Rob&#39;s and others&#39; proposal inline will be simpli=
fied to use only<br>
&gt; &gt; ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Simplified inline:<br>
&gt; &gt; In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the mos=
t common<br>
&gt; &gt; format.<br>
&gt; &gt; If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and =
don&#39;t<br>
&gt; have,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; don&#39;t care about features/deviations it is the easiest, short=
est method to<br>
&gt; &gt; use.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access=
 control<br>
&gt; rules<br>
&gt; &gt; for new nodes.<br>
&gt; &gt; When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides=
 a<br>
&gt; set of<br>
&gt; &gt; NACM rules<br>
&gt; &gt; for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.<br>
&gt; &gt; In this case you only need to specify &quot;ietf-neconf-acm@2012-=
02-22&quot; No<br>
&gt; &gt; deviations, no features to indicate.<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards Balazs<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards Balazs<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder=
@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.=
de</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda 21:26<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=
=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@eric=
sson.com" target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton=
 (rwilton)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rwilto=
n@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">n=
etmod@ietf.org</a>; Benoit Claise<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-fo=
rmat<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that t=
he file was<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with de=
viations<br>
&gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; some features are not-supported. There is no way to ind=
icate<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inli=
ne method.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easie=
r to use<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; and takes up much less storage.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an o=
pen ended<br>
&gt; &gt; set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say<br>
&gt; &gt; ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. =
In other<br>
&gt; &gt; words, two implementations supporting inline content schema may n=
ot<br>
&gt; &gt; interoperate. I do not think there is a schema format that is man=
datory to<br>
&gt; &gt; implement for inline content schema.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of interoperabi=
lity:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; - Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperabl=
e<br>
&gt; &gt; - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily interop=
erable<br>
&gt; &gt; - URI method pushes the problem to another instance file, interop=
erable<br>
&gt; &gt; - External is by desing not interoperable<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has so=
me<br>
&gt; &gt; complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multi=
ple<br>
&gt; &gt; datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand =
that an<br>
&gt; &gt; instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good t=
hing. Being<br>
&gt; &gt; able to dump a live server datastore into an instance file seems =
like a very<br>
&gt; &gt; valid use case to me and ideally this is possible without having =
to rewrite<br>
&gt; &gt; the schema part. Well, you could go and trim unused datastore sch=
emas<br>
&gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt; from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an =
external<br>
&gt; &gt; tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be done =
by a tool<br>
&gt; &gt; that just dumps a server datastore.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you re=
ally save<br>
&gt; &gt; compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525 representation? And =
does<br>
&gt; that<br>
&gt; &gt; saving justify to start engineering another schema specification =
format?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I guess my choice would have been to just have<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-- content-schema<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 +-- (content-schema-spec)?<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--: (yang-librar=
y)<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--: (uri)<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that ev=
erything<br>
&gt; &gt; sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case other schem=
a<br>
&gt; &gt; definition formats are out there).<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; /js<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt; Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jac=
obs University Bremen gGmbH<br>
&gt; &gt; Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus R=
ing 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>
&gt; &gt; Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a=
11ef1cd-fe85887d-" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://protect2.fi=
reeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d-</a><br>
&gt; 866038973a<br>
&gt; &gt; 15-19e5dad375af0063&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-<br=
>
&gt; a7431111e9bc&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F<br>
&gt; &gt; %<a href=3D"http://2Fwww.jacobs-university.de" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">2Fwww.jacobs-university.de</a>%2F&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs U=
niversity Bremen gGmbH<br>
&gt; Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1=
 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>
&gt; Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt=
;<a href=3D"https://www.jacobs-university.de/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">https://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000e5a87805c6a2a1f7--


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Subject: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: (with COMMENT)
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Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: No Objection

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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks to Alexey Melnikov for the secdir review.

I'm not experienced enough with YANG to know whether or how problematic
it is that the "anydata subtree-filter" node contents are described by
reference to the NETCONF specification, which has a particular (XML)
representation of YANG data and does not give a clear presentation of
the abstract YANG structure/semantics to be used.  Is it possible to use
the filter-spec choice option when, for example, RESTCONF is used with
JSON encoding?

Section 4

   o  report-origin: When set, this parameter indicates that origin
      metadata should be included as part of RPC output.  When this
      parameter is omitted, origin metadata in comparisons that involve
      <operational> is by default omitted.

Why is it important to complicate the semantics of this parameter with a
dependence on the datastore?  It seems like it would be simpler to get
this effect by having clients specify report-origin when the target is
not <operational>.  Note that changing the semantics would require text
changes in subsequent parts of the document for consistency.  (If
retaining the current semantics, please clarify whether "comparisons
that involve <operational>" applies when operational is source, target,
or either.)

Section 9

In addition to noting that the "compare" RPC is sensitive and should be
restricted to authorized parties, I suggest to reiterate that the
"compare" operation should not provide a mechanism to work around access
control on other nodes -- that is, a result should only be returned if
the requestor would be allowed to access both the "source" and "target"
trees independently of the RPC.  In particular, even a "no-matches"
output should not be returned, as that might provide a way to determine
the structure of the datastore even without accessing it.

We might also incorporate by reference the security considerations for
subtree filtering (RFC 6241) and xpath filtering (RFC 6991).

NITS

Section 1

   an unusually long time to do so.  This can be the case due to certain
   conditions not being met, certain parts of the configuration not
   propagating because considered inactive, resource dependencies not
   being resolved, or even implementation errors in corner conditions.

"because considered inactive" seems like an incomplete clause; maybe
"because they are considered inactive"?

Section 4

   o  differences: This parameter contains the list of differences.
      Those differences are encoded per YANG-Patch data model defined in

s/YANG-Patch/the YANG-Patch/
I'd also consider s/per/according to/, since this is not exactly a
logic-driven deduction but rather more of a new requirement.

Section 6

   for the management of interfaces defined in [RFC8343].  The excerpt
   of the data model whose instantiation is the basis of the comparison
   is as follows:

I feel like this phrasing is a little misleading, as not only is the
following snippet only a subset of the nodes contained within "container
interfaces" but the descriptions have been greatly abbreviated as well.
Perhaps we could say something about "for the purposes of understanding
the subsequent example, the following subset of the [RFC8343] data model
is provided".

   Accept: application/yang-d

(I believe this truncated header field was already noted by another
reviewer.)




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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
CC: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/1nIaS1PnYMLxqDMKJxlyhmVZjk4>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hello,
A single line is enough.
As long as ietf-yang-types is change in a backward compatible way, I =
don't
care which version of yang-types is imported. Also, we only use a single
type 'yang:xpath1.0' from yang-types. The rules for this type  are =
described
by W3C and not changing.=20
Balazs

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>=20
Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 8., cs=FCt=F6rt=F6k 15:49
To: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Juergen =
Schoenwaelder
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
<benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

Hi Balazs,

Would your inline schema not also need to specify the ietf-yang-types
dependency?

E.g., should it be:
ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14
ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15

Thanks,
Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> Sent: 08 July 2021 12:48
> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Juergen Schoenwaelder=20
> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise=20
> <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> Hello,
> I would like to keep simplified inline. If I ask my developers (not=20
> experts) which one do they want? I am pretty sure they opt for the=20
> shorter/simpler one.
>=20
> <module>ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14<module>
>=20
> OR
>=20
> <yang-library>
>   <module-set>
>     <name>m</name>
>     <module>
>       <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
>       <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
>       <namespace>uri1</namespace>
>     </module>
>     <import-only-module>
>       <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
>       <namespace>uri2</namespace>
>       <revision/>
>     </import-only-module>
>   </module-set>
>   <schema>
>     <name>s</name>
>     <module-set>m</module-set>
>   </schema>
>   <datastore>
>     <name>running</name>
>     <schema>s</schema>
>   </datastore>
> </yang-library>
>=20
> Regards Balazs
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 8., cs=FCt=F6rt=F6k 12:59
> To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>;=20
> Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise=20
> <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> Hi Juergen,
>=20
> I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.
>=20
> I think that you are right to be concerned that it should not expand=20
> into a separate parallel format.  Overtime, I would like the simple=20
> form to be able to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but=20
> beyond this I think that it should just be a flat list of modules that =

> defines the schema.  If a subset of features, or datastores, or=20
> import-only modules are needed then the YANG library version (or URIs) =
can
and should be used.
>=20
> Another example of where I expect it to be useful is in YANG packages.
> Looking at the examples at the end of
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages, =

> then some of those files (which currently aren't defining any schema,=20
> but should) would almost double in size if they represented the schema =

> inline using YANG library, which I think would make the files harder=20
> for humans to read/parse.
> Using URIs could help mitigate this, but then we would need to find a=20
> place to publish the file containing the YANG package schema=20
> (presumably somewhere in IANA), and it not obvious to me that adding=20
> the dependency on the URL is really as helpful.
>=20
> Regards,
> Rob
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35
> > To: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> > Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)=20
> > <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise=20
> > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > Subject: Re: AD review of=20
> > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> >
> > The question I asked is "how much simpler is it and does that saving =

> > justify the introduction of a new rather limited format (that may=20
> > risk to grow over time and become a second citizen)".
> >
> > So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports=20
> > from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that resolves to=20
> > ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance data would=20
> > roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I am writing=20
> > this by hand):
> >
> > <yang-library>
> >   <module-set>
> >     <name>m</name>
> >     <module>
> >       <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
> >       <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
> >       <namespace>uri1</namespace>
> >     </module>
> >     <import-only-module>
> >       <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
> >       <namespace>uri2</namespace>
> >       <revision/>
> >     </import-only-module>
> >   </module-set>
> >   <schema>
> >     <name>s</name>
> >     <module-set>m</module-set>
> >   </schema>
> >   <datastore>
> >     <name>running</name>
> >     <schema>s</schema>
> >   </datastore>
> > </yang-library>
> >
> > Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information=20
> > (note that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be=20
> > needed anymore).
> >
> > I am concerned that we start creating another format to define=20
> > schemas that is very limited and people later come with extension=20
> > proposals to address some of the limits and at the end we have=20
> > multiple formats to maintain and deal with. So the question is=20
> > whether people think this is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead=20
> > goes down with every additional module used by your instance file,=20
> > so the example above is really the most extreme case. And if you=20
> > have many modules defining NACM rules, then you put the above into a =

> > separate file and use the URI to point to the schema, no?
> >
> > /js
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=E1zs Lengyel wrote:
> > > Hello Jurgen,
> > > Inline:
> > > This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlier =

> > > by
> > other
> > > reviewers.
> > > Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will be simplified to=20
> > > use only
> > > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.
> > >
> > > Simplified inline:
> > > In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most =

> > > common format.
> > > If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and=20
> > > don't
> > have,
> > >
> > > don't care about features/deviations it is the easiest, shortest=20
> > > method to use.
> > >  Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access=20
> > > control
> > rules
> > > for new nodes.
> > > When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides=20
> > > a
> > set of
> > > NACM rules
> > > for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.
> > > In this case you only need to specify "ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22"
> > > No deviations, no features to indicate.
> > > Regards Balazs
> > >
> > > Regards Balazs
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > > Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 7., szerda 21:26
> > > To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> > > Cc: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Rob Wilton
> > > (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise=20
> > > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > > Subject: Re: AD review of
> > > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file =

> > > > > was generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with=20
> > > > > deviations
> > and
> > > > > some features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate=20
> > > > > feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inline =
method.
> > > >
> > > > The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
> > > > Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to =

> > > > use and takes up much less storage.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an=20
> > > open ended set of schema defining modules. While you can use it=20
> > > with say ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else=20
> > > as well. In other words, two implementations supporting inline=20
> > > content schema may not interoperate. I do not think there is a=20
> > > schema format that is mandatory to implement for inline content
schema.
> > >
> > > So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of =
interoperability:
> > >
> > > - Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable
> > > - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily=20
> > > interoperable
> > > - URI method pushes the problem to another instance file,=20
> > > interoperable
> > > - External is by desing not interoperable
> > >
> > > On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has=20
> > > some complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with=20
> > > multiple datastores and not needed for small instance files (I=20
> > > understand that an instance file is always tied to a single
datastore?).
> > >
> > > To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good=20
> > > thing. Being able to dump a live server datastore into an instance =

> > > file seems like a very valid use case to me and ideally this is=20
> > > possible without having to rewrite the schema part. Well, you=20
> > > could go and trim unused datastore schemas
> > and
> > > from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an=20
> > > external tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to=20
> > > be done by a tool that just dumps a server datastore.
> > >
> > > What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you=20
> > > really save compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525=20
> > > representation? And does
> > that
> > > saving justify to start engineering another schema specification
format?
> > >
> > > I guess my choice would have been to just have
> > >
> > >        +-- content-schema
> > >        |  +-- (content-schema-spec)?
> > >        |     +--: (yang-library)
> > >        |     +--: (uri)
> > >
> > > but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that=20
> > > everything sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case=20
> > > other schema definition formats are out there).
> > >
> > > /js
> > >
> > > --
> > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | =
Germany
> > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
> > > =
<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d-
> > 866038973a
> > > 15-19e5dad375af0063&q=3D1&e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-
> > a7431111e9bc&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F
> > > %2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | =
Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
> <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7edafb8e-2141c2bf-7edabb15-
> 86e2237f51
> fb-eceadf4f1dc08461&q=3D1&e=3D09140141-b70c-44c9-9909-
> 048d736efebf&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F
> %2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F>

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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
CC: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/EmUolfKa_V5rlJFnueF6lvV62Fg>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hello Andy,

See below.

Balazs

=20

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>=20
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 8., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 18:55
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; =
Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; netmod@ietf.org; =
Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

=20

=20

=20

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 3:58 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com =
<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> > wrote:

Hi Juergen,

I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.

=20

=20

I believe it is the only option that does not have too much complexity.

=20

The inline form seems to imply that the NMDA version of the YANG library =
is used.

Only 1 module set is ever shown, but of course the actual schema allows

for much more complex instances than that, which the reader must =
support.

=20

Does this mean NMDA must be used or else a YANG data file cannot be =
saved?

So the reader is expected to look for the 'current' /yang-library and =
then the 'deprecated' /modules-state?

And then fish the anydata for whatever non-standard solution is in use?

The procedures should be explained better so there is a better chance of =
interoperability.

BALAZS: No NMDA is not required. If it would there would be a clear =
statement about it. Even in section 2.2.1.  Documentation of server =
capabilities the new (NMDA compatible) yang-library is used, but the =
simple (non- NMDA) modules-state branch.

=20

For the URI method, the reader must check for a broken chain of =
reference and loops.

The draft should say the uri references across N files MUST NOT create a =
loop

(similar language is in YANG wrt import loops).

BALAZS: Someone (don.t know who) asked for longer reference chains. =
However, I don=E2=80=99t see them as a common use-case. IMHO the most =
common use-case for the URI method will be, when the consumer knows the =
content-schema apriori, it only needs a reference to check that the =
schema is what it expected.

=20

For conformance purposes, I think YANG features are appropriate.

IMO simplified-inline is mandatory-to-implement but the rest should=20

be optional. This way a tool can claim conformance and also the standard

will provide a minimum level of interoperability.

BALAZS: There are very different views about the preferred/required =
methods. Also the needs of different use-cases are different. =
That=E2=80=99s why we need all 3.

=20

=20

Andy

=20

=20

=20

=20

I think that you are right to be concerned that it should not expand =
into a separate parallel format.  Overtime, I would like the simple form =
to be able to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but beyond =
this I think that it should just be a flat list of modules that defines =
the schema.  If a subset of features, or datastores, or import-only =
modules are needed then the YANG library version (or URIs) can and =
should be used.

=20

This can be done with augment if and when the versioning draft reaches =
RFC

=20

Another example of where I expect it to be useful is in YANG packages.  =
Looking at the examples at the end of =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages, =
then some of those files (which currently aren't defining any schema, =
but should) would almost double in size if they represented the schema =
inline using YANG library, which I think would make the files harder for =
humans to read/parse.  Using URIs could help mitigate this, but then we =
would need to find a place to publish the file containing the YANG =
package schema (presumably somewhere in IANA), and it not obvious to me =
that adding the dependency on the URL is really as helpful.

Regards,
Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> >
> Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35
> To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com =
<mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> >
> Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >; =
Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> <rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> >; netmod@ietf.org =
<mailto:netmod@ietf.org> ; Benoit Claise
> <benoit.claise@huawei.com <mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com> >
> Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> The question I asked is "how much simpler is it and does that saving
> justify the introduction of a new rather limited format (that may risk
> to grow over time and become a second citizen)".
>=20
> So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports
> from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that resolves to
> ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance data would
> roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I am writing this
> by hand):
>=20
> <yang-library>
>   <module-set>
>     <name>m</name>
>     <module>
>       <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
>       <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
>       <namespace>uri1</namespace>
>     </module>
>     <import-only-module>
>       <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
>       <namespace>uri2</namespace>
>       <revision/>
>     </import-only-module>
>   </module-set>
>   <schema>
>     <name>s</name>
>     <module-set>m</module-set>
>   </schema>
>   <datastore>
>     <name>running</name>
>     <schema>s</schema>
>   </datastore>
> </yang-library>
>=20
> Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information (note
> that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be needed
> anymore).
>=20
> I am concerned that we start creating another format to define schemas
> that is very limited and people later come with extension proposals to
> address some of the limits and at the end we have multiple formats to
> maintain and deal with. So the question is whether people think this
> is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead goes down with every
> additional module used by your instance file, so the example above is
> really the most extreme case. And if you have many modules defining
> NACM rules, then you put the above into a separate file and use the
> URI to point to the schema, no?
>=20
> /js
>=20
> On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote:
> > Hello Jurgen,
> > Inline:
> > This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlier =
by
> other
> > reviewers.
> > Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will be simplified to use =
only
> > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.
> >
> > Simplified inline:
> > In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most =
common
> > format.
> > If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and =
don't
> have,
> >
> > don't care about features/deviations it is the easiest, shortest =
method to
> > use.
> >  Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access control
> rules
> > for new nodes.
> > When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides a
> set of
> > NACM rules
> > for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.
> > In this case you only need to specify "ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22" =
No
> > deviations, no features to indicate.
> > Regards Balazs
> >
> > Regards Balazs
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> >
> > Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda 21:26
> > To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >
> > Cc: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com =
<mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> >; Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> > <rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> >; netmod@ietf.org =
<mailto:netmod@ietf.org> ; Benoit Claise
> > <benoit.claise@huawei.com <mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com> >
> > Subject: Re: AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > >
> > > > Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file =
was
> > > > generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations
> and
> > > > some features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate
> > > > feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inline =
method.
> > >
> > > The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
> > > Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to =
use
> > > and takes up much less storage.
> > >
> >
> > The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an open =
ended
> > set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say
> > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In =
other
> > words, two implementations supporting inline content schema may not
> > interoperate. I do not think there is a schema format that is =
mandatory to
> > implement for inline content schema.
> >
> > So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of =
interoperability:
> >
> > - Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable
> > - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily =
interoperable
> > - URI method pushes the problem to another instance file, =
interoperable
> > - External is by desing not interoperable
> >
> > On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some
> > complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multiple
> > datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand =
that an
> > instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).
> >
> > To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good =
thing. Being
> > able to dump a live server datastore into an instance file seems =
like a very
> > valid use case to me and ideally this is possible without having to =
rewrite
> > the schema part. Well, you could go and trim unused datastore =
schemas
> and
> > from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an =
external
> > tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be done by =
a tool
> > that just dumps a server datastore.
> >
> > What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you =
really save
> > compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525 representation? And =
does
> that
> > saving justify to start engineering another schema specification =
format?
> >
> > I guess my choice would have been to just have
> >
> >        +-- content-schema
> >        |  +-- (content-schema-spec)?
> >        |     +--: (yang-library)
> >        |     +--: (uri)
> >
> > but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that =
everything
> > sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case other schema
> > definition formats are out there).
> >
> > /js
> >
> > --
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | =
Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
> > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d-
> 866038973a
> > 15-19e5dad375af0063&q=3D1&e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-
> a7431111e9bc&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F
> > %2Fwww.jacobs-university.de =
<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe25a02c-a1be992c-fe25e0b7-86fc6=
812c361-d087929e1674b3a3&q=3D1&e=3D198aaef7-64f6-438e-b4c8-3c84f231abe4&u=
=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2F2fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F> %2F>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/ =
<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Debc4e571-b45fdc71-ebc4a5ea-86fc6=
812c361-21325e0a2fa737df&q=3D1&e=3D198aaef7-64f6-438e-b4c8-3c84f231abe4&u=
=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F> >


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello Andy,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>See below.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Andy Bierman =
&lt;andy@yumaworks.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 8., =
cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 18:55<br><b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
&lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Juergen Schoenwaelder =
&lt;j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de&gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
&lt;balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com&gt;; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise =
&lt;benoit.claise@huawei.com&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 3:58 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-right:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hi Juergen,<br><br>I believe that having =
the simple form is worth the extra =
complexity.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
believe it is the only option that does not have too much =
complexity.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The inline form seems to imply that the NMDA version =
of the YANG library is used.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Only 1 module set is ever shown, but of course the =
actual schema allows<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>for =
much more complex instances than that, which the reader must =
support.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Does this mean NMDA must be used or else a YANG data =
file cannot be saved?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>So =
the reader is expected to look for the 'current' /yang-library and then =
the 'deprecated' /modules-state?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>And then fish the anydata for whatever non-standard =
solution is in use?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The =
procedures should be explained better so there is a better chance of =
interoperability.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>BALAZS: No NMDA is =
not required. If it would there would be a clear statement about it. =
Even in section 2.2.1.=C2=A0 Documentation of server capabilities the =
new (NMDA compatible) yang-library is used, but the simple (non- NMDA) =
modules-state branch.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For the URI method, the reader must check for a broken =
chain of reference and loops.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The draft should say the uri references across N files =
MUST NOT create a loop<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>(similar language is in YANG wrt import =
loops).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>BALAZS: Someone (don.t know =
who) asked for longer reference chains. However, I don=E2=80=99t see =
them as a common use-case. IMHO the most common use-case for the URI =
method will be, when the consumer knows the content-schema apriori, it =
only needs a reference to check that the schema is what it =
expected.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For conformance purposes, I think YANG features are =
appropriate.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>IMO =
simplified-inline is mandatory-to-implement but the rest =
should&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>be optional. =
This way a tool can claim conformance and also the =
standard<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>will provide a =
minimum level of interoperability.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>BALAZS: There are very different views about the =
preferred/required methods. Also the needs of different use-cases are =
different. That=E2=80=99s why we need all 3.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Andy<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-right:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I think that you are right to be =
concerned that it should not expand into a separate parallel =
format.&nbsp; Overtime, I would like the simple form to be able to use =
revision labels instead of revision dates, but beyond this I think that =
it should just be a flat list of modules that defines the schema.&nbsp; =
If a subset of features, or datastores, or import-only modules are =
needed then the YANG library version (or URIs) can and should be =
used.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>This can be done with augment if and when the =
versioning draft reaches RFC<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-right:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Another example of where I expect it to be useful is =
in YANG packages.&nbsp; Looking at the examples at the end of <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-pack=
ages" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod=
-yang-packages</a>, then some of those files (which currently aren't =
defining any schema, but should) would almost double in size if they =
represented the schema inline using YANG library, which I think would =
make the files harder for humans to read/parse.&nbsp; Using URIs could =
help mitigate this, but then we would need to find a place to publish =
the file containing the YANG package schema (presumably somewhere in =
IANA), and it not obvious to me that adding the dependency on the URL is =
really as helpful.<br><br>Regards,<br>Rob<br><br><br>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<br>&gt; From: Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;<br>&gt; =
Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35<br>&gt; To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Cc: Andy =
Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton =
(rwilton)<br>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>; =
Benoit Claise<br>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: Re: =
AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; The question I asked is &quot;how much simpler is it and does =
that saving<br>&gt; justify the introduction of a new rather limited =
format (that may risk<br>&gt; to grow over time and become a second =
citizen)&quot;.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; So lets take your NACM example. =
ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports<br>&gt; from ietf-yang-types (at the =
time of publication that resolves to<br>&gt; ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. =
So the YANG Library instance data would<br>&gt; roughly look this =
(please correct what I messed up, I am writing this<br>&gt; by =
hand):<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &lt;yang-library&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;module-set&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;name&gt;m&lt;/name&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;module&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;name&gt;ietf-netconf-acm&lt;/name&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;revision&gt;2018-02-14&lt;/revision&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;namespace&gt;uri1&lt;/namespace&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;/module&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;import-only-module&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;name&gt;ietf-yang-types&lt;/name&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;namespace&gt;uri2&lt;/namespace&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;revision/&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;/import-only-module&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;/module-set&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;schema&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;name&gt;s&lt;/name&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;module-set&gt;m&lt;/module-set&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;/schema&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;datastore&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;name&gt;running&lt;/name&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;schema&gt;s&lt;/schema&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;/datastore&gt;<br>&gt; &lt;/yang-library&gt;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information =
(note<br>&gt; that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be =
needed<br>&gt; anymore).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I am concerned that we start =
creating another format to define schemas<br>&gt; that is very limited =
and people later come with extension proposals to<br>&gt; address some =
of the limits and at the end we have multiple formats to<br>&gt; =
maintain and deal with. So the question is whether people think =
this<br>&gt; is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead goes down with =
every<br>&gt; additional module used by your instance file, so the =
example above is<br>&gt; really the most extreme case. And if you have =
many modules defining<br>&gt; NACM rules, then you put the above into a =
separate file and use the<br>&gt; URI to point to the schema, =
no?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; /js<br>&gt; <br>&gt; On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at =
09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; Hello =
Jurgen,<br>&gt; &gt; Inline:<br>&gt; &gt; This complex form of inline =
was requested and not objected earlier by<br>&gt; other<br>&gt; &gt; =
reviewers.<br>&gt; &gt; Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will =
be simplified to use only<br>&gt; &gt; ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as =
you suggest.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Simplified inline:<br>&gt; &gt; =
In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most =
common<br>&gt; &gt; format.<br>&gt; &gt; If you are providing data only =
for one or a few YANG modules and don't<br>&gt; have,<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; don't care about features/deviations it is the =
easiest, shortest method to<br>&gt; &gt; use.<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; Our =
most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access control<br>&gt; =
rules<br>&gt; &gt; for new nodes.<br>&gt; &gt; When a YANG modeler =
designs a new module, he immediately provides a<br>&gt; set of<br>&gt; =
&gt; NACM rules<br>&gt; &gt; for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin =
roles/groups.<br>&gt; &gt; In this case you only need to specify =
&quot;ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22&quot; No<br>&gt; &gt; deviations, no =
features to indicate.<br>&gt; &gt; Regards Balazs<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt; Regards Balazs<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<br>&gt; &gt; From: Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt; Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda 21:26<br>&gt; &gt; To: Andy =
Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Cc: =
Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton =
(rwilton)<br>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>; =
Benoit Claise<br>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Subject: =
Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman =
wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Inline method is needed, =
if you want to indicate that the file was<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =
generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations<br>&gt; =
and<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; some features are not-supported. There is no =
way to indicate<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; feature-support and deviations =
with the simplified-inline method.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to =
use<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; and takes up much less storage.<br>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The inline content schema is super =
generic since it supports an open ended<br>&gt; &gt; set of schema =
defining modules. While you can use it with say<br>&gt; &gt; =
ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In =
other<br>&gt; &gt; words, two implementations supporting inline content =
schema may not<br>&gt; &gt; interoperate. I do not think there is a =
schema format that is mandatory to<br>&gt; &gt; implement for inline =
content schema.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; So here is my assessment of =
what we have in terms of interoperability:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; - =
Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable<br>&gt; =
&gt; - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily =
interoperable<br>&gt; &gt; - URI method pushes the problem to another =
instance file, interoperable<br>&gt; &gt; - External is by desing not =
interoperable<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On the server side, we have YANG =
Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some<br>&gt; &gt; complexity that is =
useful for supporting large servers with multiple<br>&gt; &gt; =
datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand that =
an<br>&gt; &gt; instance file is always tied to a single =
datastore?).<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; To me, it feels that reusing RFC =
8525 design is actually a good thing. Being<br>&gt; &gt; able to dump a =
live server datastore into an instance file seems like a very<br>&gt; =
&gt; valid use case to me and ideally this is possible without having to =
rewrite<br>&gt; &gt; the schema part. Well, you could go and trim unused =
datastore schemas<br>&gt; and<br>&gt; &gt; from there unused module sets =
etc but that can all be done by an external<br>&gt; &gt; tool trimming =
the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be done by a tool<br>&gt; =
&gt; that just dumps a server datastore.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; What =
is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you really =
save<br>&gt; &gt; compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525 =
representation? And does<br>&gt; that<br>&gt; &gt; saving justify to =
start engineering another schema specification format?<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I guess my choice would have been to just have<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +-- content-schema<br>&gt; =
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; +-- =
(content-schema-spec)?<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;+--: (yang-library)<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;+--: (uri)<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; but others =
obviously want much more choice (but lets note that everything<br>&gt; =
&gt; sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case other =
schema<br>&gt; &gt; definition formats are out there).<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; /js<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; --<br>&gt; &gt; Juergen =
Schoenwaelder&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Jacobs University =
Bremen gGmbH<br>&gt; &gt; Phone: +49 421 200 3587&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>&gt; &gt; =
Fax:&nbsp; &nbsp;+49 421 200 3103<br>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887=
d-" =
target=3D"_blank">https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1=
cd-fe85887d-</a><br>&gt; 866038973a<br>&gt; &gt; =
15-19e5dad375af0063&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-<br>&gt; =
a7431111e9bc&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F<br>&gt; &gt; %<a =
href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe25a02c-a1be992c-fe25e0b=
7-86fc6812c361-d087929e1674b3a3&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3D198aaef7-64f6-438e-b4c8=
-3c84f231abe4&amp;u=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2F2fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F" =
target=3D"_blank">2Fwww.jacobs-university.de</a>%2F&gt;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --<br>&gt; Juergen Schoenwaelder&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH<br>&gt; Phone: +49 =
421 200 3587&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Campus Ring 1 | 28759 =
Bremen | Germany<br>&gt; Fax:&nbsp; &nbsp;+49 421 200 3103&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Debc4e571-b45fdc71-ebc4a5e=
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-3c84f231abe4&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p=
></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>
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From: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>
To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/blytPDYxQZYDONckkhsjGd1lUt4>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Juergen Schoenwaelder <=
j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>=0A=
Sent: 08 July 2021 11:13=0A=
=0A=
On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:30:27AM +0000, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote:=0A=
> It is perhaps worth noting that the NETCONF copy-config allows for the co=
nfiguration to be specified using any URI, but the server capabilities anno=
unce which URI schemes are supported.=0A=
>=0A=
> Hence, I think that it is okay for the YANG model to use URI, but I think=
 the draft, and data node description should constrain the URI schemes that=
 allowed (perhaps file:// and https://).  This would allow support for futu=
re URI schemes to be added in a future revision of the YANG instance data m=
odule, if required.=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
I think it is not "allowed" but "mandatory to implement". We should=0A=
allow implementations to support an ftps:// scheme as long as there=0A=
is a common baseline.=0A=
=0A=
<tp>=0A=
I am confused.  Is ftps: intended to be an existing scheme or a hypothetica=
l one that may appear in the future.  I do not see it in the IANA registry=
=0A=
https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/uri-schemes.xhtml#uri-schemes-=
1=0A=
=0A=
sftp: appears as a provisional entry in the IANA registry but AFACT did not=
 get specified.  I recall a debate about ftps: v sftp:  I favoured the form=
er but lost but then I did not see any further work on either.=0A=
=0A=
Tom Petch=0A=
=0A=
/js=0A=
=0A=
--=0A=
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH=0A=
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany=0A=
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>=0A=
=0A=
_______________________________________________=0A=
netmod mailing list=0A=
netmod@ietf.org=0A=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A=


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/deUvXjANiH6ntbTex-B5GKCKkzE>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hello Andy,

In the name of simplification, I will add the following to the URI =
method:

=20

Referenced files using  "inline" or the "simplified-inline" methods MUST =
be supported.=20

            Referenced files using the "URI method" MAY be supported.

=20

This means the tool does not need to be prepared for chains or loops. I =
think chains and loops are something we should discourage.=20

(Referenced files using the =E2=80=9Cexternal Method=E2=80=9D make no =
sense anyway. If I don=E2=80=99t tell you the schema of the referenced =
file, there is no sense in referencing them)

Regards Balazs

=20

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 9., p=C3=A9ntek 9:39
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
<rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

=20

Hello Andy,

See below.

Balazs

=20

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >=20
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 8., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 18:55
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> >
Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> >; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
<balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com <mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> >; =
netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> ; Benoit Claise =
<benoit.claise@huawei.com <mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com> >
Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

=20

=20

=20

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 3:58 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com =
<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> > wrote:

Hi Juergen,

I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.

=20

=20

I believe it is the only option that does not have too much complexity.

=20

The inline form seems to imply that the NMDA version of the YANG library =
is used.

Only 1 module set is ever shown, but of course the actual schema allows

for much more complex instances than that, which the reader must =
support.

=20

Does this mean NMDA must be used or else a YANG data file cannot be =
saved?

So the reader is expected to look for the 'current' /yang-library and =
then the 'deprecated' /modules-state?

And then fish the anydata for whatever non-standard solution is in use?

The procedures should be explained better so there is a better chance of =
interoperability.

BALAZS: No NMDA is not required. If it would there would be a clear =
statement about it. Even in section 2.2.1.  Documentation of server =
capabilities the new (NMDA compatible) yang-library is used, but the =
simple (non- NMDA) modules-state branch.

=20

For the URI method, the reader must check for a broken chain of =
reference and loops.

The draft should say the uri references across N files MUST NOT create a =
loop

(similar language is in YANG wrt import loops).

BALAZS: Someone (don.t know who) asked for longer reference chains. =
However, I don=E2=80=99t see them as a common use-case. IMHO the most =
common use-case for the URI method will be, when the consumer knows the =
content-schema apriori, it only needs a reference to check that the =
schema is what it expected.

=20

For conformance purposes, I think YANG features are appropriate.

IMO simplified-inline is mandatory-to-implement but the rest should=20

be optional. This way a tool can claim conformance and also the standard

will provide a minimum level of interoperability.

BALAZS: There are very different views about the preferred/required =
methods. Also the needs of different use-cases are different. =
That=E2=80=99s why we need all 3.

=20

=20

Andy

=20

=20

=20

=20

I think that you are right to be concerned that it should not expand =
into a separate parallel format.  Overtime, I would like the simple form =
to be able to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but beyond =
this I think that it should just be a flat list of modules that defines =
the schema.  If a subset of features, or datastores, or import-only =
modules are needed then the YANG library version (or URIs) can and =
should be used.

=20

This can be done with augment if and when the versioning draft reaches =
RFC

=20

Another example of where I expect it to be useful is in YANG packages.  =
Looking at the examples at the end of =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages, =
then some of those files (which currently aren't defining any schema, =
but should) would almost double in size if they represented the schema =
inline using YANG library, which I think would make the files harder for =
humans to read/parse.  Using URIs could help mitigate this, but then we =
would need to find a place to publish the file containing the YANG =
package schema (presumably somewhere in IANA), and it not obvious to me =
that adding the dependency on the URL is really as helpful.

Regards,
Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> >
> Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35
> To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com =
<mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> >
> Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >; =
Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> <rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> >; netmod@ietf.org =
<mailto:netmod@ietf.org> ; Benoit Claise
> <benoit.claise@huawei.com <mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com> >
> Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> The question I asked is "how much simpler is it and does that saving
> justify the introduction of a new rather limited format (that may risk
> to grow over time and become a second citizen)".
>=20
> So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports
> from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that resolves to
> ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance data would
> roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I am writing this
> by hand):
>=20
> <yang-library>
>   <module-set>
>     <name>m</name>
>     <module>
>       <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
>       <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
>       <namespace>uri1</namespace>
>     </module>
>     <import-only-module>
>       <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
>       <namespace>uri2</namespace>
>       <revision/>
>     </import-only-module>
>   </module-set>
>   <schema>
>     <name>s</name>
>     <module-set>m</module-set>
>   </schema>
>   <datastore>
>     <name>running</name>
>     <schema>s</schema>
>   </datastore>
> </yang-library>
>=20
> Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information (note
> that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be needed
> anymore).
>=20
> I am concerned that we start creating another format to define schemas
> that is very limited and people later come with extension proposals to
> address some of the limits and at the end we have multiple formats to
> maintain and deal with. So the question is whether people think this
> is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead goes down with every
> additional module used by your instance file, so the example above is
> really the most extreme case. And if you have many modules defining
> NACM rules, then you put the above into a separate file and use the
> URI to point to the schema, no?
>=20
> /js
>=20
> On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote:
> > Hello Jurgen,
> > Inline:
> > This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlier =
by
> other
> > reviewers.
> > Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will be simplified to use =
only
> > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.
> >
> > Simplified inline:
> > In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most =
common
> > format.
> > If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and =
don't
> have,
> >
> > don't care about features/deviations it is the easiest, shortest =
method to
> > use.
> >  Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access control
> rules
> > for new nodes.
> > When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides a
> set of
> > NACM rules
> > for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.
> > In this case you only need to specify "ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22" =
No
> > deviations, no features to indicate.
> > Regards Balazs
> >
> > Regards Balazs
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> >
> > Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda 21:26
> > To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >
> > Cc: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com =
<mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> >; Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> > <rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> >; netmod@ietf.org =
<mailto:netmod@ietf.org> ; Benoit Claise
> > <benoit.claise@huawei.com <mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com> >
> > Subject: Re: AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > >
> > > > Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file =
was
> > > > generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations
> and
> > > > some features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate
> > > > feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inline =
method.
> > >
> > > The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
> > > Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to =
use
> > > and takes up much less storage.
> > >
> >
> > The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an open =
ended
> > set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say
> > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In =
other
> > words, two implementations supporting inline content schema may not
> > interoperate. I do not think there is a schema format that is =
mandatory to
> > implement for inline content schema.
> >
> > So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of =
interoperability:
> >
> > - Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable
> > - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily =
interoperable
> > - URI method pushes the problem to another instance file, =
interoperable
> > - External is by desing not interoperable
> >
> > On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some
> > complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multiple
> > datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand =
that an
> > instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).
> >
> > To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good =
thing. Being
> > able to dump a live server datastore into an instance file seems =
like a very
> > valid use case to me and ideally this is possible without having to =
rewrite
> > the schema part. Well, you could go and trim unused datastore =
schemas
> and
> > from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an =
external
> > tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be done by =
a tool
> > that just dumps a server datastore.
> >
> > What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you =
really save
> > compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525 representation? And =
does
> that
> > saving justify to start engineering another schema specification =
format?
> >
> > I guess my choice would have been to just have
> >
> >        +-- content-schema
> >        |  +-- (content-schema-spec)?
> >        |     +--: (yang-library)
> >        |     +--: (uri)
> >
> > but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that =
everything
> > sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case other schema
> > definition formats are out there).
> >
> > /js
> >
> > --
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | =
Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
> > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d-
> 866038973a
> > 15-19e5dad375af0063&q=3D1&e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-
> a7431111e9bc&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F
> > %2Fwww.jacobs-university.de =
<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe25a02c-a1be992c-fe25e0b7-86fc6=
812c361-d087929e1674b3a3&q=3D1&e=3D198aaef7-64f6-438e-b4c8-3c84f231abe4&u=
=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2F2fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F> %2F>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/ =
<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Debc4e571-b45fdc71-ebc4a5ea-86fc6=
812c361-21325e0a2fa737df&q=3D1&e=3D198aaef7-64f6-438e-b4c8-3c84f231abe4&u=
=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F> >


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello Andy,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>In the name of simplification, I will add the =
following to the URI method:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Referenced =
files using =C2=A0&quot;inline&quot; or the =
&quot;simplified-inline&quot; methods MUST be supported. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Referenced files using the &quot;URI method&quot; MAY be =
supported.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>This means the tool does not need to be prepared for =
chains or loops. I think chains and loops are something we should =
discourage. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>(Referenced files using =
the =E2=80=9Cexternal Method=E2=80=9D make no sense anyway. If I =
don=E2=80=99t tell you the schema of the referenced file, there is no =
sense in referencing them)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Regards =
Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> netmod =
&lt;netmod-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bal=C3=A1zs =
Lengyel<br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 9., p=C3=A9ntek =
9:39<br><b>To:</b> Andy Bierman &lt;andy@yumaworks.com&gt;; Rob Wilton =
(rwilton) &lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> =
netmod@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello =
Andy,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>See below.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Andy Bierman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; =
<br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 8., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k =
18:55<br><b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b>=
 Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de">j.schoenwaelder@jaco=
bs-university.de</a>&gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</=
a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a>; Benoit =
Claise &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com">benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;=
<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: AD review of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 3:58 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-right:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm =
0cm;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0=
pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hi =
Juergen,<br><br>I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra =
complexity.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
believe it is the only option that does not have too much =
complexity.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The inline form seems to imply that the NMDA version =
of the YANG library is used.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Only 1 module set is ever shown, but of course the =
actual schema allows<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>for =
much more complex instances than that, which the reader must =
support.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Does this mean NMDA must be used or else a YANG data =
file cannot be saved?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>So =
the reader is expected to look for the 'current' /yang-library and then =
the 'deprecated' /modules-state?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>And then fish the anydata for whatever non-standard =
solution is in use?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The =
procedures should be explained better so there is a better chance of =
interoperability.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>BALAZS: No NMDA is =
not required. If it would there would be a clear statement about it. =
Even in section 2.2.1.&nbsp; Documentation of server capabilities the =
new (NMDA compatible) yang-library is used, but the simple (non- NMDA) =
modules-state branch.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For the URI method, the reader must check for a broken =
chain of reference and loops.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The draft should say the uri references across N files =
MUST NOT create a loop<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>(similar language is in YANG wrt import =
loops).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>BALAZS: Someone (don.t know =
who) asked for longer reference chains. However, I don=E2=80=99t see =
them as a common use-case. IMHO the most common use-case for the URI =
method will be, when the consumer knows the content-schema apriori, it =
only needs a reference to check that the schema is what it =
expected.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For conformance purposes, I think YANG features are =
appropriate.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>IMO =
simplified-inline is mandatory-to-implement but the rest =
should&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>be optional. =
This way a tool can claim conformance and also the =
standard<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>will provide a =
minimum level of interoperability.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>BALAZS: There are very different views about the =
preferred/required methods. Also the needs of different use-cases are =
different. That=E2=80=99s why we need all 3.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Andy<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-right:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm =
0cm;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0=
pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I think that you =
are right to be concerned that it should not expand into a separate =
parallel format.&nbsp; Overtime, I would like the simple form to be able =
to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but beyond this I =
think that it should just be a flat list of modules that defines the =
schema.&nbsp; If a subset of features, or datastores, or import-only =
modules are needed then the YANG library version (or URIs) can and =
should be used.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>This can be done with augment if and when the =
versioning draft reaches RFC<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-right:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm =
0cm;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0=
pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Another example of where I expect it to be =
useful is in YANG packages.&nbsp; Looking at the examples at the end of =
<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-pack=
ages" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod=
-yang-packages</a>, then some of those files (which currently aren't =
defining any schema, but should) would almost double in size if they =
represented the schema inline using YANG library, which I think would =
make the files harder for humans to read/parse.&nbsp; Using URIs could =
help mitigate this, but then we would need to find a place to publish =
the file containing the YANG package schema (presumably somewhere in =
IANA), and it not obvious to me that adding the dependency on the URL is =
really as helpful.<br><br>Regards,<br>Rob<br><br><br>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<br>&gt; From: Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;<br>&gt; =
Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35<br>&gt; To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Cc: Andy =
Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton =
(rwilton)<br>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>; =
Benoit Claise<br>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: Re: =
AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; The question I asked is &quot;how much simpler is it and does =
that saving<br>&gt; justify the introduction of a new rather limited =
format (that may risk<br>&gt; to grow over time and become a second =
citizen)&quot;.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; So lets take your NACM example. =
ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports<br>&gt; from ietf-yang-types (at the =
time of publication that resolves to<br>&gt; ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. =
So the YANG Library instance data would<br>&gt; roughly look this =
(please correct what I messed up, I am writing this<br>&gt; by =
hand):<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &lt;yang-library&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;module-set&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;name&gt;m&lt;/name&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;module&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;name&gt;ietf-netconf-acm&lt;/name&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;revision&gt;2018-02-14&lt;/revision&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;namespace&gt;uri1&lt;/namespace&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;/module&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;import-only-module&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;name&gt;ietf-yang-types&lt;/name&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;namespace&gt;uri2&lt;/namespace&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;revision/&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;/import-only-module&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;/module-set&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;schema&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;name&gt;s&lt;/name&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;module-set&gt;m&lt;/module-set&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;/schema&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;datastore&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;name&gt;running&lt;/name&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;schema&gt;s&lt;/schema&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;/datastore&gt;<br>&gt; &lt;/yang-library&gt;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information =
(note<br>&gt; that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be =
needed<br>&gt; anymore).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I am concerned that we start =
creating another format to define schemas<br>&gt; that is very limited =
and people later come with extension proposals to<br>&gt; address some =
of the limits and at the end we have multiple formats to<br>&gt; =
maintain and deal with. So the question is whether people think =
this<br>&gt; is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead goes down with =
every<br>&gt; additional module used by your instance file, so the =
example above is<br>&gt; really the most extreme case. And if you have =
many modules defining<br>&gt; NACM rules, then you put the above into a =
separate file and use the<br>&gt; URI to point to the schema, =
no?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; /js<br>&gt; <br>&gt; On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at =
09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; Hello =
Jurgen,<br>&gt; &gt; Inline:<br>&gt; &gt; This complex form of inline =
was requested and not objected earlier by<br>&gt; other<br>&gt; &gt; =
reviewers.<br>&gt; &gt; Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will =
be simplified to use only<br>&gt; &gt; ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as =
you suggest.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Simplified inline:<br>&gt; &gt; =
In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most =
common<br>&gt; &gt; format.<br>&gt; &gt; If you are providing data only =
for one or a few YANG modules and don't<br>&gt; have,<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; don't care about features/deviations it is the =
easiest, shortest method to<br>&gt; &gt; use.<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; Our =
most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access control<br>&gt; =
rules<br>&gt; &gt; for new nodes.<br>&gt; &gt; When a YANG modeler =
designs a new module, he immediately provides a<br>&gt; set of<br>&gt; =
&gt; NACM rules<br>&gt; &gt; for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin =
roles/groups.<br>&gt; &gt; In this case you only need to specify =
&quot;ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22&quot; No<br>&gt; &gt; deviations, no =
features to indicate.<br>&gt; &gt; Regards Balazs<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt; Regards Balazs<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<br>&gt; &gt; From: Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt; Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda 21:26<br>&gt; &gt; To: Andy =
Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Cc: =
Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton =
(rwilton)<br>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>; =
Benoit Claise<br>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Subject: =
Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman =
wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Inline method is needed, =
if you want to indicate that the file was<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =
generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations<br>&gt; =
and<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; some features are not-supported. There is no =
way to indicate<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; feature-support and deviations =
with the simplified-inline method.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to =
use<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; and takes up much less storage.<br>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The inline content schema is super =
generic since it supports an open ended<br>&gt; &gt; set of schema =
defining modules. While you can use it with say<br>&gt; &gt; =
ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In =
other<br>&gt; &gt; words, two implementations supporting inline content =
schema may not<br>&gt; &gt; interoperate. I do not think there is a =
schema format that is mandatory to<br>&gt; &gt; implement for inline =
content schema.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; So here is my assessment of =
what we have in terms of interoperability:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; - =
Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable<br>&gt; =
&gt; - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily =
interoperable<br>&gt; &gt; - URI method pushes the problem to another =
instance file, interoperable<br>&gt; &gt; - External is by desing not =
interoperable<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On the server side, we have YANG =
Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some<br>&gt; &gt; complexity that is =
useful for supporting large servers with multiple<br>&gt; &gt; =
datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand that =
an<br>&gt; &gt; instance file is always tied to a single =
datastore?).<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; To me, it feels that reusing RFC =
8525 design is actually a good thing. Being<br>&gt; &gt; able to dump a =
live server datastore into an instance file seems like a very<br>&gt; =
&gt; valid use case to me and ideally this is possible without having to =
rewrite<br>&gt; &gt; the schema part. Well, you could go and trim unused =
datastore schemas<br>&gt; and<br>&gt; &gt; from there unused module sets =
etc but that can all be done by an external<br>&gt; &gt; tool trimming =
the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be done by a tool<br>&gt; =
&gt; that just dumps a server datastore.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; What =
is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you really =
save<br>&gt; &gt; compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525 =
representation? And does<br>&gt; that<br>&gt; &gt; saving justify to =
start engineering another schema specification format?<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I guess my choice would have been to just have<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +-- content-schema<br>&gt; =
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; +-- =
(content-schema-spec)?<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;+--: (yang-library)<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;+--: (uri)<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; but others =
obviously want much more choice (but lets note that everything<br>&gt; =
&gt; sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case other =
schema<br>&gt; &gt; definition formats are out there).<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; /js<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; --<br>&gt; &gt; Juergen =
Schoenwaelder&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Jacobs University =
Bremen gGmbH<br>&gt; &gt; Phone: +49 421 200 3587&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>&gt; &gt; =
Fax:&nbsp; &nbsp;+49 421 200 3103<br>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887=
d-" =
target=3D"_blank">https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1=
cd-fe85887d-</a><br>&gt; 866038973a<br>&gt; &gt; =
15-19e5dad375af0063&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-<br>&gt; =
a7431111e9bc&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F<br>&gt; &gt; %<a =
href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe25a02c-a1be992c-fe25e0b=
7-86fc6812c361-d087929e1674b3a3&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3D198aaef7-64f6-438e-b4c8=
-3c84f231abe4&amp;u=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2F2fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F" =
target=3D"_blank">2Fwww.jacobs-university.de</a>%2F&gt;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --<br>&gt; Juergen Schoenwaelder&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH<br>&gt; Phone: +49 =
421 200 3587&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Campus Ring 1 | 28759 =
Bremen | Germany<br>&gt; Fax:&nbsp; &nbsp;+49 421 200 3103&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Debc4e571-b45fdc71-ebc4a5e=
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-3c84f231abe4&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p=
></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>
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To: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Thread-Topic: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/Kwm29voW8D0jZZBg3FXUEVh60Y8>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Only https and file schemes will be mentioned in the draft.
Balazs

-----Original Message-----
From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of tom petch
Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 9., p=E9ntek 10:58
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Juergen Schoenwaelder
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Cc: netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Juergen =
Schoenwaelder
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Sent: 08 July 2021 11:13

On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:30:27AM +0000, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote:
> It is perhaps worth noting that the NETCONF copy-config allows for the
configuration to be specified using any URI, but the server capabilities
announce which URI schemes are supported.
>
> Hence, I think that it is okay for the YANG model to use URI, but I =
think
the draft, and data node description should constrain the URI schemes =
that
allowed (perhaps file:// and https://).  This would allow support for =
future
URI schemes to be added in a future revision of the YANG instance data
module, if required.
>

I think it is not "allowed" but "mandatory to implement". We should =
allow
implementations to support an ftps:// scheme as long as there is a =
common
baseline.

<tp>
I am confused.  Is ftps: intended to be an existing scheme or a =
hypothetical
one that may appear in the future.  I do not see it in the IANA registry
https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/uri-schemes.xhtml#uri-scheme=
s-1

sftp: appears as a provisional entry in the IANA registry but AFACT did =
not
get specified.  I recall a debate about ftps: v sftp:  I favoured the =
former
but lost but then I did not see any further work on either.

Tom Petch

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>, "Juergen Schoenwaelder" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
CC: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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References: <DM4PR11MB5438E69C93177642F39B724FB51B9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <CABCOCHQp25fYE3=Q7kcGrkp7Xud6hsYF0AFW0E6jekPmqeTpSA@mail.gmail.com> <20210706174208.4birungsifwtiryq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <CABCOCHQNuZWaiQS65WXpVC0xd+O4yETDMhjVz=04uLZ1=n0rVA@mail.gmail.com> <20210706181933.yodqa2uhnfmas5tb@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <CABCOCHSBpduvCjad_KAgQq2C8TLg+xWgvZyNsgnE7=Xz957s7g@mail.gmail.com> <AM8PR07MB823052CD1E3C986CBC66ABD5F01A9@AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <CABCOCHTJTQip=_OYPnop8VQ23UkTZ8tqqQmN9Hv4-yr24ORoKg@mail.gmail.com> <20210707192534.4emim5a36zyqrktc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <AM8PR07MB8230F15A703919AB04E12578F0199@AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <20210708103528.6ezr4v5qeltinvmv@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <DM4PR11MB543803FC8470B4BE35C05BE7B5199@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <AM8PR07MB8230EE80010A94ACB66435DEF0199@AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <BN9PR11MB543616CE090A68E9C36546E7B5199@BN9PR11MB5436.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <AM8PR07MB82306435AE52CFE7D8DDD032F0189@AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/vgAJpG09yDM2EMxoPO6hm70pbeg>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Hi Balazs,

Thanks.  That sounds fine.   Please can you add a sentence to the descripti=
on of the simplified-inline in the YANG model to state this, which I think =
may be something like:

"YANG modules that are only required to satisfy import-only dependencies MA=
Y be excluded from the leaf-list.  If they are excluded then the consumer o=
f the instance data file can choose any versions of the YANG modules that s=
atisfy the import dependency."

Regards,
Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> Sent: 09 July 2021 08:25
> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Juergen Schoenwaelder
> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> Hello,
> A single line is enough.
> As long as ietf-yang-types is change in a backward compatible way, I don'=
t
> care which version of yang-types is imported. Also, we only use a single
> type 'yang:xpath1.0' from yang-types. The rules for this type  are descri=
bed
> by W3C and not changing.
> Balazs
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 8., cs=FCt=F6rt=F6k 15:49
> To: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Juergen Schoenwaelder
> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> Hi Balazs,
>=20
> Would your inline schema not also need to specify the ietf-yang-types
> dependency?
>=20
> E.g., should it be:
> ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14
> ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15
>=20
> Thanks,
> Rob
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> > Sent: 08 July 2021 12:48
> > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit
> Claise
> > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> >
> > Hello,
> > I would like to keep simplified inline. If I ask my developers (not
> > experts) which one do they want? I am pretty sure they opt for the
> > shorter/simpler one.
> >
> > <module>ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14<module>
> >
> > OR
> >
> > <yang-library>
> >   <module-set>
> >     <name>m</name>
> >     <module>
> >       <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
> >       <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
> >       <namespace>uri1</namespace>
> >     </module>
> >     <import-only-module>
> >       <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
> >       <namespace>uri2</namespace>
> >       <revision/>
> >     </import-only-module>
> >   </module-set>
> >   <schema>
> >     <name>s</name>
> >     <module-set>m</module-set>
> >   </schema>
> >   <datastore>
> >     <name>running</name>
> >     <schema>s</schema>
> >   </datastore>
> > </yang-library>
> >
> > Regards Balazs
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> > Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 8., cs=FCt=F6rt=F6k 12:59
> > To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>;
> > Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> > Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit
> Claise
> > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> >
> > Hi Juergen,
> >
> > I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.
> >
> > I think that you are right to be concerned that it should not expand
> > into a separate parallel format.  Overtime, I would like the simple
> > form to be able to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but
> > beyond this I think that it should just be a flat list of modules that
> > defines the schema.  If a subset of features, or datastores, or
> > import-only modules are needed then the YANG library version (or URIs)
> can
> and should be used.
> >
> > Another example of where I expect it to be useful is in YANG packages.
> > Looking at the examples at the end of
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages,
> > then some of those files (which currently aren't defining any schema,
> > but should) would almost double in size if they represented the schema
> > inline using YANG library, which I think would make the files harder
> > for humans to read/parse.
> > Using URIs could help mitigate this, but then we would need to find a
> > place to publish the file containing the YANG package schema
> > (presumably somewhere in IANA), and it not obvious to me that adding
> > the dependency on the URL is really as helpful.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Rob
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > > Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35
> > > To: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> > > Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> > > <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> > > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > > Subject: Re: AD review of
> > > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> > >
> > > The question I asked is "how much simpler is it and does that saving
> > > justify the introduction of a new rather limited format (that may
> > > risk to grow over time and become a second citizen)".
> > >
> > > So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports
> > > from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that resolves to
> > > ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance data would
> > > roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I am writing
> > > this by hand):
> > >
> > > <yang-library>
> > >   <module-set>
> > >     <name>m</name>
> > >     <module>
> > >       <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
> > >       <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
> > >       <namespace>uri1</namespace>
> > >     </module>
> > >     <import-only-module>
> > >       <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
> > >       <namespace>uri2</namespace>
> > >       <revision/>
> > >     </import-only-module>
> > >   </module-set>
> > >   <schema>
> > >     <name>s</name>
> > >     <module-set>m</module-set>
> > >   </schema>
> > >   <datastore>
> > >     <name>running</name>
> > >     <schema>s</schema>
> > >   </datastore>
> > > </yang-library>
> > >
> > > Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information
> > > (note that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be
> > > needed anymore).
> > >
> > > I am concerned that we start creating another format to define
> > > schemas that is very limited and people later come with extension
> > > proposals to address some of the limits and at the end we have
> > > multiple formats to maintain and deal with. So the question is
> > > whether people think this is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead
> > > goes down with every additional module used by your instance file,
> > > so the example above is really the most extreme case. And if you
> > > have many modules defining NACM rules, then you put the above into a
> > > separate file and use the URI to point to the schema, no?
> > >
> > > /js
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=E1zs Lengyel wrote:
> > > > Hello Jurgen,
> > > > Inline:
> > > > This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlier
> > > > by
> > > other
> > > > reviewers.
> > > > Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will be simplified to
> > > > use only
> > > > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.
> > > >
> > > > Simplified inline:
> > > > In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most
> > > > common format.
> > > > If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and
> > > > don't
> > > have,
> > > >
> > > > don't care about features/deviations it is the easiest, shortest
> > > > method to use.
> > > >  Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access
> > > > control
> > > rules
> > > > for new nodes.
> > > > When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides
> > > > a
> > > set of
> > > > NACM rules
> > > > for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.
> > > > In this case you only need to specify "ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22"
> > > > No deviations, no features to indicate.
> > > > Regards Balazs
> > > >
> > > > Regards Balazs
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > > > Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 7., szerda 21:26
> > > > To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> > > > Cc: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Rob Wilton
> > > > (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> > > > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: AD review of
> > > > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file
> > > > > > was generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with
> > > > > > deviations
> > > and
> > > > > > some features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate
> > > > > > feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inline metho=
d.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
> > > > > Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to
> > > > > use and takes up much less storage.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an
> > > > open ended set of schema defining modules. While you can use it
> > > > with say ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else
> > > > as well. In other words, two implementations supporting inline
> > > > content schema may not interoperate. I do not think there is a
> > > > schema format that is mandatory to implement for inline content
> schema.
> > > >
> > > > So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of interoperabili=
ty:
> > > >
> > > > - Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable
> > > > - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily
> > > > interoperable
> > > > - URI method pushes the problem to another instance file,
> > > > interoperable
> > > > - External is by desing not interoperable
> > > >
> > > > On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has
> > > > some complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with
> > > > multiple datastores and not needed for small instance files (I
> > > > understand that an instance file is always tied to a single
> datastore?).
> > > >
> > > > To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good
> > > > thing. Being able to dump a live server datastore into an instance
> > > > file seems like a very valid use case to me and ideally this is
> > > > possible without having to rewrite the schema part. Well, you
> > > > could go and trim unused datastore schemas
> > > and
> > > > from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an
> > > > external tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to
> > > > be done by a tool that just dumps a server datastore.
> > > >
> > > > What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you
> > > > really save compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525
> > > > representation? And does
> > > that
> > > > saving justify to start engineering another schema specification
> format?
> > > >
> > > > I guess my choice would have been to just have
> > > >
> > > >        +-- content-schema
> > > >        |  +-- (content-schema-spec)?
> > > >        |     +--: (yang-library)
> > > >        |     +--: (uri)
> > > >
> > > > but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that
> > > > everything sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case
> > > > other schema definition formats are out there).
> > > >
> > > > /js
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen |
> Germany
> > > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
> > > > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d=
-
> > > 866038973a
> > > > 15-19e5dad375af0063&q=3D1&e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-
> > > a7431111e9bc&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F
> > > > %2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German=
y
> > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
> > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7edafb8e-2141c2bf-7edabb15-
> > 86e2237f51
> > fb-eceadf4f1dc08461&q=3D1&e=3D09140141-b70c-44c9-9909-
> > 048d736efebf&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F
> > %2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F>


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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
CC: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBMZW5neWVs?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-15.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Instance Data File Format
        Authors         : Balazs Lengyel
                          Benoit Claise
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-15.txt
	Pages           : 28
	Date            : 2021-07-09

Abstract:
   There is a need to document data defined in YANG models at design,
   implementation time or when a live server is unavailable.  This
   document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance data,
   which follows the syntax and semantics of existing YANG models, and
   annotates it with metadata.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-15

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-15


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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References: <DM4PR11MB5438E69C93177642F39B724FB51B9@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <CABCOCHQp25fYE3=Q7kcGrkp7Xud6hsYF0AFW0E6jekPmqeTpSA@mail.gmail.com> <20210706174208.4birungsifwtiryq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <CABCOCHQNuZWaiQS65WXpVC0xd+O4yETDMhjVz=04uLZ1=n0rVA@mail.gmail.com> <20210706181933.yodqa2uhnfmas5tb@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <CABCOCHSBpduvCjad_KAgQq2C8TLg+xWgvZyNsgnE7=Xz957s7g@mail.gmail.com> <AM8PR07MB823052CD1E3C986CBC66ABD5F01A9@AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <CABCOCHTJTQip=_OYPnop8VQ23UkTZ8tqqQmN9Hv4-yr24ORoKg@mail.gmail.com> <20210707192534.4emim5a36zyqrktc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <AM8PR07MB8230F15A703919AB04E12578F0199@AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <20210708103528.6ezr4v5qeltinvmv@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <DM4PR11MB543803FC8470B4BE35C05BE7B5199@DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <CABCOCHR2q7eiLUEmqL7opKO-HGM0NGCUZXT9kHwyzNXCf-MvAA@mail.gmail.com> <AM8PR07MB82307BF057918A26E839652BF0189@AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <AM8PR07MB82304E147A149CE70F109C64F0189@AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
In-Reply-To: <AM8PR07MB82304E147A149CE70F109C64F0189@AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 03:39:23 -0700
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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/QJTHIgM0xXXn1jid3u2owwlpGFc>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 1:58 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson=
.com>
wrote:

> Hello Andy,
>
> In the name of simplification, I will add the following to the URI method=
:
>
>
>
> Referenced files using  "inline" or the "simplified-inline" methods MUST
> be supported.
>
>             Referenced files using the "URI method" MAY be supported.
>
>
>

This is a good compromise.
Although it may seem that mandating everything will increase
interoperability,
it actually has the opposite effect. Companies decide to implement
everything,
but "in phases".  This is code for "phase 1 will implement the parts we
need.
Phase 2 will never happen."

There is plenty of implementation experience with the first 2 methods,
and good reason to think they will be supported.  The draft details for the
URI
method clearly lack any meaningful implementation feedback.
There are so many problems with this approach, especially for the reader.
Storing passwords in cleartext is just the easiest to spot.


> This means the tool does not need to be prepared for chains or loops. I
> think chains and loops are something we should discourage.
>
> (Referenced files using the =E2=80=9Cexternal Method=E2=80=9D make no sen=
se anyway. If I
> don=E2=80=99t tell you the schema of the referenced file, there is no sen=
se in
> referencing them)
>


One purpose of a standard is to assign blame when it doesn't work.
If the writer generates a series of URIs that form a loop, then the reader
will
not be able to find the file that has the Simplified Inline or Inline  info=
.
That is clearly the fault of the writer, not the reader.


Regards Balazs
>

Andy


>
>
> *From:* netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Bal=C3=A1zs Lengy=
el
> *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 9., p=C3=A9ntek 9:39
> *To:* Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton) <
> rwilton@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* netmod@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [netmod] AD review of
> draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>
>
>
> Hello Andy,
>
> See below.
>
> Balazs
>
>
>
> *From:* Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 8., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 18:55
> *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>;
> Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoi=
t
> Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> *Subject:* Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 3:58 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Juergen,
>
> I believe that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.
>
>
>
>
>
> I believe it is the only option that does not have too much complexity.
>
>
>
> The inline form seems to imply that the NMDA version of the YANG library
> is used.
>
> Only 1 module set is ever shown, but of course the actual schema allows
>
> for much more complex instances than that, which the reader must support.
>
>
>
> Does this mean NMDA must be used or else a YANG data file cannot be saved=
?
>
> So the reader is expected to look for the 'current' /yang-library and the=
n
> the 'deprecated' /modules-state?
>
> And then fish the anydata for whatever non-standard solution is in use?
>
> The procedures should be explained better so there is a better chance of
> interoperability.
>
> BALAZS: No NMDA is not required. If it would there would be a clear
> statement about it. Even in section 2.2.1.  Documentation of server
> capabilities the new (NMDA compatible) yang-library is used, but the simp=
le
> (non- NMDA) modules-state branch.
>
>
>
> For the URI method, the reader must check for a broken chain of reference
> and loops.
>
> The draft should say the uri references across N files MUST NOT create a
> loop
>
> (similar language is in YANG wrt import loops).
>
> BALAZS: Someone (don.t know who) asked for longer reference chains.
> However, I don=E2=80=99t see them as a common use-case. IMHO the most com=
mon
> use-case for the URI method will be, when the consumer knows the
> content-schema apriori, it only needs a reference to check that the schem=
a
> is what it expected.
>
>
>
> For conformance purposes, I think YANG features are appropriate.
>
> IMO simplified-inline is mandatory-to-implement but the rest should
>
> be optional. This way a tool can claim conformance and also the standard
>
> will provide a minimum level of interoperability.
>
> BALAZS: There are very different views about the preferred/required
> methods. Also the needs of different use-cases are different. That=E2=80=
=99s why we
> need all 3.
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think that you are right to be concerned that it should not expand into
> a separate parallel format.  Overtime, I would like the simple form to be
> able to use revision labels instead of revision dates, but beyond this I
> think that it should just be a flat list of modules that defines the
> schema.  If a subset of features, or datastores, or import-only modules a=
re
> needed then the YANG library version (or URIs) can and should be used.
>
>
>
> This can be done with augment if and when the versioning draft reaches RF=
C
>
>
>
> Another example of where I expect it to be useful is in YANG packages.
> Looking at the examples at the end of
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages,
> then some of those files (which currently aren't defining any schema, but
> should) would almost double in size if they represented the schema inline
> using YANG library, which I think would make the files harder for humans =
to
> read/parse.  Using URIs could help mitigate this, but then we would need =
to
> find a place to publish the file containing the YANG package schema
> (presumably somewhere in IANA), and it not obvious to me that adding the
> dependency on the URL is really as helpful.
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35
> > To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> > Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> > <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> >
> > The question I asked is "how much simpler is it and does that saving
> > justify the introduction of a new rather limited format (that may risk
> > to grow over time and become a second citizen)".
> >
> > So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14 imports
> > from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that resolves to
> > ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance data would
> > roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I am writing this
> > by hand):
> >
> > <yang-library>
> >   <module-set>
> >     <name>m</name>
> >     <module>
> >       <name>ietf-netconf-acm</name>
> >       <revision>2018-02-14</revision>
> >       <namespace>uri1</namespace>
> >     </module>
> >     <import-only-module>
> >       <name>ietf-yang-types</name>
> >       <namespace>uri2</namespace>
> >       <revision/>
> >     </import-only-module>
> >   </module-set>
> >   <schema>
> >     <name>s</name>
> >     <module-set>m</module-set>
> >   </schema>
> >   <datastore>
> >     <name>running</name>
> >     <schema>s</schema>
> >   </datastore>
> > </yang-library>
> >
> > Yes, this is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information (note
> > that your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be needed
> > anymore).
> >
> > I am concerned that we start creating another format to define schemas
> > that is very limited and people later come with extension proposals to
> > address some of the limits and at the end we have multiple formats to
> > maintain and deal with. So the question is whether people think this
> > is worth it. (Note that the felt overhead goes down with every
> > additional module used by your instance file, so the example above is
> > really the most extreme case. And if you have many modules defining
> > NACM rules, then you put the above into a separate file and use the
> > URI to point to the schema, no?
> >
> > /js
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote:
> > > Hello Jurgen,
> > > Inline:
> > > This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earlier by
> > other
> > > reviewers.
> > > Based on Rob's and others' proposal inline will be simplified to use
> only
> > > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.
> > >
> > > Simplified inline:
> > > In Ericsson we already use simplified inline a lot, it is the most
> common
> > > format.
> > > If you are providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and don'=
t
> > have,
> > >
> > > don't care about features/deviations it is the easiest, shortest
> method to
> > > use.
> > >  Our most common use-case is to provide preconfigured access control
> > rules
> > > for new nodes.
> > > When a YANG modeler designs a new module, he immediately provides a
> > set of
> > > NACM rules
> > > for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.
> > > In this case you only need to specify "ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22" No
> > > deviations, no features to indicate.
> > > Regards Balazs
> > >
> > > Regards Balazs
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> > > Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 7., szerda 21:26
> > > To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> > > Cc: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Rob Wilton (rw=
ilton)
> > > <rwilton@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> > > <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> > > Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Inline method is needed, if you want to indicate that the file wa=
s
> > > > > generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations
> > and
> > > > > some features are not-supported. There is no way to indicate
> > > > > feature-support and deviations with the simplified-inline method.
> > > >
> > > > The Inline anydata solution is very heavyweight.
> > > > Before the YANG library there was a simple URI that is easier to us=
e
> > > > and takes up much less storage.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The inline content schema is super generic since it supports an open
> ended
> > > set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say
> > > ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In
> other
> > > words, two implementations supporting inline content schema may not
> > > interoperate. I do not think there is a schema format that is
> mandatory to
> > > implement for inline content schema.
> > >
> > > So here is my assessment of what we have in terms of interoperability=
:
> > >
> > > - Simplified-Inline comes with notable restrictions, interoperable
> > > - Inline is an open ended content schema, not necessarily interoperab=
le
> > > - URI method pushes the problem to another instance file, interoperab=
le
> > > - External is by desing not interoperable
> > >
> > > On the server side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some
> > > complexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multiple
> > > datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand that
> an
> > > instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).
> > >
> > > To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actually a good thing=
.
> Being
> > > able to dump a live server datastore into an instance file seems like
> a very
> > > valid use case to me and ideally this is possible without having to
> rewrite
> > > the schema part. Well, you could go and trim unused datastore schemas
> > and
> > > from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an
> external
> > > tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need to be done by a
> tool
> > > that just dumps a server datastore.
> > >
> > > What is the actual value of simplified inline? How much do you really
> save
> > > compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8525 representation? And does
> > that
> > > saving justify to start engineering another schema specification
> format?
> > >
> > > I guess my choice would have been to just have
> > >
> > >        +-- content-schema
> > >        |  +-- (content-schema-spec)?
> > >        |     +--: (yang-library)
> > >        |     +--: (uri)
> > >
> > > but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that
> everything
> > > sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case other schema
> > > definition formats are out there).
> > >
> > > /js
> > >
> > > --
> > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German=
y
> > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
> > > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d-
> > 866038973a
> > > 15-19e5dad375af0063&q=3D1&e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-
> > a7431111e9bc&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F
> > > %2Fwww.jacobs-university.de
> <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe25a02c-a1be992c-fe25e0b7-86fc6=
812c361-d087929e1674b3a3&q=3D1&e=3D198aaef7-64f6-438e-b4c8-3c84f231abe4&u=
=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2F2fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F>
> %2F>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/
> <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Debc4e571-b45fdc71-ebc4a5ea-86fc6=
812c361-21325e0a2fa737df&q=3D1&e=3D198aaef7-64f6-438e-b4c8-3c84f231abe4&u=
=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F>
> >
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 1:58 AM Bal=C3=
=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com">balazs.len=
gyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><=
div class=3D"gmail-m_-1733001898339548410WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">Hello Andy,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the name of simpl=
ification, I will add the following to the URI method:<u></u><u></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Referenc=
ed files using =C2=A0&quot;inline&quot; or the &quot;simplified-inline&quot=
; methods MUST be supported. <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Refere=
nced files using the &quot;URI method&quot; MAY be supported.<u></u><u></u>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0</p></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>This is a good compromise.</div><div>Although it may seem tha=
t mandating everything will increase interoperability,</div><div>it actuall=
y has the opposite effect. Companies decide to implement everything,</div><=
div>but &quot;in phases&quot;.=C2=A0 This is code for &quot;phase 1 will im=
plement the parts we need.</div><div>Phase 2 will never happen.&quot;</div>=
<div><br></div><div>There is plenty of implementation experience with the f=
irst 2 methods,</div><div>and good reason to think they will be supported.=
=C2=A0 The draft details for the URI</div><div>method clearly lack any mean=
ingful implementation feedback.</div><div>There are so many problems with t=
his approach, especially for the reader.</div><div>Storing passwords in cle=
artext is just the easiest to spot.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap=
: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-1733001898339548410WordSection1"><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">This means the tool do=
es not need to be prepared for chains or loops. I think chains and loops ar=
e something we should discourage. <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
(Referenced files using the =E2=80=9Cexternal Method=E2=80=9D make no sense=
 anyway. If I don=E2=80=99t tell you the schema of the referenced file, the=
re is no sense in referencing them)</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div><br></div><div>One purpose of a standard is to assign blame when i=
t doesn&#39;t work.</div><div>If the writer generates a series of URIs that=
 form a loop, then the reader will</div><div>not be able to find the file t=
hat has the Simplified Inline or Inline=C2=A0 info.</div><div>That is clear=
ly the fault of the writer, not the reader.</div><div><br></div><div><br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-1733001898339548=
410WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">Regards Balazs</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Andy</=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_=
-1733001898339548410WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div style=3D"border-ri=
ght:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,2=
25,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> netmod &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel<br><b>Sent:</b> =
2021. j=C3=BAlius 9., p=C3=A9ntek 9:39<br><b>To:</b> Andy Bierman &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&g=
t;; Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [netm=
od] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<u></u><u></u><=
/p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">Hello Andy,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">See below.<u>=
</u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Balazs<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bo=
ttom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3p=
t 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; <br=
><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 8., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 18:55<br><b>To=
:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Juergen Schoenwaelder &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_blank=
">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengye=
l@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">netmod@ietf.org</a>; Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benoit.claise@hu=
awei.com" target=3D"_blank">benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:=
</b> Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<u></u><u>=
</u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 a=
t 3:58 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blo=
ckquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border=
-right:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">Hi Juergen,<br><br>I belie=
ve that having the simple form is worth the extra complexity.<u></u><u></u>=
</p></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">I believe it is the only option that does not have too much comp=
lexity.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The inline form seems to imply th=
at the NMDA version of the YANG library is used.<u></u><u></u></p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Only 1 module set is ever shown, but of course the=
 actual schema allows<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">fo=
r much more complex instances than that, which the reader must support.<u><=
/u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Does this mean NMDA must be used or else a Y=
ANG data file cannot be saved?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">So the reader is expected to look for the &#39;current&#39; /yang-li=
brary and then the &#39;deprecated&#39; /modules-state?<u></u><u></u></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">And then fish the anydata for whatever non-=
standard solution is in use?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal">The procedures should be explained better so there is a better chance =
of interoperability.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">BALAZS: No NMD=
A is not required. If it would there would be a clear statement about it. E=
ven in section 2.2.1.=C2=A0 Documentation of server capabilities the new (N=
MDA compatible) yang-library is used, but the simple (non- NMDA) modules-st=
ate branch.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">For the URI method, the rea=
der must check for a broken chain of reference and loops.<u></u><u></u></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The draft should say the uri references a=
cross N files MUST NOT create a loop<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">(similar language is in YANG wrt import loops).<u></u><u></u=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">BALAZS: Someone (don.t know who) asked for long=
er reference chains. However, I don=E2=80=99t see them as a common use-case=
. IMHO the most common use-case for the URI method will be, when the consum=
er knows the content-schema apriori, it only needs a reference to check tha=
t the schema is what it expected.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">For con=
formance purposes, I think YANG features are appropriate.<u></u><u></u></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMO simplified-inline is mandatory-to-imp=
lement but the rest should=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">be optional. This way a tool can claim conformance and also the st=
andard<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">will provide a mi=
nimum level of interoperability.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">BA=
LAZS: There are very different views about the preferred/required methods. =
Also the needs of different use-cases are different. That=E2=80=99s why we =
need all 3.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquo=
te style=3D"border-top:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-righ=
t:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">I think that you are right to b=
e concerned that it should not expand into a separate parallel format.=C2=
=A0 Overtime, I would like the simple form to be able to use revision label=
s instead of revision dates, but beyond this I think that it should just be=
 a flat list of modules that defines the schema.=C2=A0 If a subset of featu=
res, or datastores, or import-only modules are needed then the YANG library=
 version (or URIs) can and should be used.<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">This can be done with augment if and when the versioning draft rea=
ches RFC<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-bottom:none;bord=
er-left:none;border-right:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm;margin:5pt=
 0cm 5pt 4.8pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Another example of where I expect it=
 to be useful is in YANG packages.=C2=A0 Looking at the examples at the end=
 of <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang=
-packages" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ie=
tf-netmod-yang-packages</a>, then some of those files (which currently aren=
&#39;t defining any schema, but should) would almost double in size if they=
 represented the schema inline using YANG library, which I think would make=
 the files harder for humans to read/parse.=C2=A0 Using URIs could help mit=
igate this, but then we would need to find a place to publish the file cont=
aining the YANG package schema (presumably somewhere in IANA), and it not o=
bvious to me that adding the dependency on the URL is really as helpful.<br=
><br>Regards,<br>Rob<br><br><br>&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; Fro=
m: Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-unive=
rsity.de" target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;<br=
>&gt; Sent: 08 July 2021 11:35<br>&gt; To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@er=
icsson.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Cc: Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yuma=
works.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilto=
n)<br>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rwilt=
on@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
netmod@ietf.org</a>; Benoit Claise<br>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benoit.cla=
ise@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; =
Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format<br>&g=
t; <br>&gt; The question I asked is &quot;how much simpler is it and does t=
hat saving<br>&gt; justify the introduction of a new rather limited format =
(that may risk<br>&gt; to grow over time and become a second citizen)&quot;=
.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; So lets take your NACM example. ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02=
-14 imports<br>&gt; from ietf-yang-types (at the time of publication that r=
esolves to<br>&gt; ietf-yang-types@2013-07-15. So the YANG Library instance=
 data would<br>&gt; roughly look this (please correct what I messed up, I a=
m writing this<br>&gt; by hand):<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &lt;yang-library&gt;<br>&=
gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;module-set&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;m=
&lt;/name&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;module&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;ietf-netconf-acm&lt;/name&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;revision&gt;2018-02-14&lt;/revision&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;namespace&gt;uri1&lt;/namespace&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/module&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;import-only=
-module&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;ietf-yang-types&l=
t;/name&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;namespace&gt;uri2&lt;/nam=
espace&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;revision/&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/import-only-module&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/modul=
e-set&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;schema&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt=
;name&gt;s&lt;/name&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;module-set&gt;m&lt;/=
module-set&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;/schema&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;=
datastore&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;name&gt;running&lt;/name&gt;<b=
r>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;schema&gt;s&lt;/schema&gt;<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&lt;/datastore&gt;<br>&gt; &lt;/yang-library&gt;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Yes, t=
his is a bit longer, but it also conveys more information (note<br>&gt; tha=
t your datastore leaf in the header would likely not be needed<br>&gt; anym=
ore).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I am concerned that we start creating another format=
 to define schemas<br>&gt; that is very limited and people later come with =
extension proposals to<br>&gt; address some of the limits and at the end we=
 have multiple formats to<br>&gt; maintain and deal with. So the question i=
s whether people think this<br>&gt; is worth it. (Note that the felt overhe=
ad goes down with every<br>&gt; additional module used by your instance fil=
e, so the example above is<br>&gt; really the most extreme case. And if you=
 have many modules defining<br>&gt; NACM rules, then you put the above into=
 a separate file and use the<br>&gt; URI to point to the schema, no?<br>&gt=
; <br>&gt; /js<br>&gt; <br>&gt; On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:27:52AM +0000, B=
al=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; Hello Jurgen,<br>&gt; &gt; Inline:<b=
r>&gt; &gt; This complex form of inline was requested and not objected earl=
ier by<br>&gt; other<br>&gt; &gt; reviewers.<br>&gt; &gt; Based on Rob&#39;=
s and others&#39; proposal inline will be simplified to use only<br>&gt; &g=
t; ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 as you suggest.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; S=
implified inline:<br>&gt; &gt; In Ericsson we already use simplified inline=
 a lot, it is the most common<br>&gt; &gt; format.<br>&gt; &gt; If you are =
providing data only for one or a few YANG modules and don&#39;t<br>&gt; hav=
e,<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; don&#39;t care about features/deviations it is=
 the easiest, shortest method to<br>&gt; &gt; use.<br>&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 Our m=
ost common use-case is to provide preconfigured access control<br>&gt; rule=
s<br>&gt; &gt; for new nodes.<br>&gt; &gt; When a YANG modeler designs a ne=
w module, he immediately provides a<br>&gt; set of<br>&gt; &gt; NACM rules<=
br>&gt; &gt; for the readOnly and the SystemAdmin roles/groups.<br>&gt; &gt=
; In this case you only need to specify &quot;ietf-neconf-acm@2012-02-22&qu=
ot; No<br>&gt; &gt; deviations, no features to indicate.<br>&gt; &gt; Regar=
ds Balazs<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Regards Balazs<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt=
; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; &gt; From: Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_blank">j.=
schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Sent: 2021. j=C3=BA=
lius 7., szerda 21:26<br>&gt; &gt; To: Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:a=
ndy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt=
; Cc: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com=
" target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; Rob Wilton (rwilto=
n)<br>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">=
rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">netmod@ietf.org</a>; Benoit Claise<br>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
benoit.claise@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">benoit.claise@huawei.com</a>&gt=
;<br>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-fi=
le-format<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 11:12:06AM -070=
0, Andy Bierman wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Inline meth=
od is needed, if you want to indicate that the file was<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &=
gt; generated by someone who uses some YANG modules with deviations<br>&gt;=
 and<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; some features are not-supported. There is no wa=
y to indicate<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; feature-support and deviations with th=
e simplified-inline method.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; The Inline =
anydata solution is very heavyweight.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Before the YANG lib=
rary there was a simple URI that is easier to use<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; and tak=
es up much less storage.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The in=
line content schema is super generic since it supports an open ended<br>&gt=
; &gt; set of schema defining modules. While you can use it with say<br>&gt=
; &gt; ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04, you can use anything else as well. In =
other<br>&gt; &gt; words, two implementations supporting inline content sch=
ema may not<br>&gt; &gt; interoperate. I do not think there is a schema for=
mat that is mandatory to<br>&gt; &gt; implement for inline content schema.<=
br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; So here is my assessment of what we have in terms=
 of interoperability:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; - Simplified-Inline comes w=
ith notable restrictions, interoperable<br>&gt; &gt; - Inline is an open en=
ded content schema, not necessarily interoperable<br>&gt; &gt; - URI method=
 pushes the problem to another instance file, interoperable<br>&gt; &gt; - =
External is by desing not interoperable<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On the se=
rver side, we have YANG Library. Perhaps RFC 8525 has some<br>&gt; &gt; com=
plexity that is useful for supporting large servers with multiple<br>&gt; &=
gt; datastores and not needed for small instance files (I understand that a=
n<br>&gt; &gt; instance file is always tied to a single datastore?).<br>&gt=
; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; To me, it feels that reusing RFC 8525 design is actuall=
y a good thing. Being<br>&gt; &gt; able to dump a live server datastore int=
o an instance file seems like a very<br>&gt; &gt; valid use case to me and =
ideally this is possible without having to rewrite<br>&gt; &gt; the schema =
part. Well, you could go and trim unused datastore schemas<br>&gt; and<br>&=
gt; &gt; from there unused module sets etc but that can all be done by an e=
xternal<br>&gt; &gt; tool trimming the schema part, i.e., it does not need =
to be done by a tool<br>&gt; &gt; that just dumps a server datastore.<br>&g=
t; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; What is the actual value of simplified inline? How muc=
h do you really save<br>&gt; &gt; compared to the simplest equivalent RFC 8=
525 representation? And does<br>&gt; that<br>&gt; &gt; saving justify to st=
art engineering another schema specification format?<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &=
gt; I guess my choice would have been to just have<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-- content-schema<br>&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 +-- (content-schema-spec)?<br>&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--: (yang-library)<br>&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--: (uri)<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &=
gt; but others obviously want much more choice (but lets note that everythi=
ng<br>&gt; &gt; sits in a choice, so everything is extensible in case other=
 schema<br>&gt; &gt; definition formats are out there).<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt=
; &gt; /js<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; --<br>&gt; &gt; Juergen Schoenwaelder=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH<br>=
&gt; &gt; Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus R=
ing 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>&gt; &gt; Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 31=
03<br>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe85=
c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d-" target=3D"_blank">https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/=
url?k=3Dfe85c8e6-a11ef1cd-fe85887d-</a><br>&gt; 866038973a<br>&gt; &gt; 15-=
19e5dad375af0063&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3D3637406d-f774-4073-80ee-<br>&gt; a743111=
1e9bc&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F<br>&gt; &gt; %<a href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye=
.com/v1/url?k=3Dfe25a02c-a1be992c-fe25e0b7-86fc6812c361-d087929e1674b3a3&am=
p;q=3D1&amp;e=3D198aaef7-64f6-438e-b4c8-3c84f231abe4&amp;u=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2F2=
fwww.jacobs-university.de%2F" target=3D"_blank">2Fwww.jacobs-university.de<=
/a>%2F&gt;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; --<br>&gt; Juergen Schoenwael=
der=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH<=
br>&gt; Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Rin=
g 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>&gt; Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/=
v1/url?k=3Debc4e571-b45fdc71-ebc4a5ea-86fc6812c361-21325e0a2fa737df&amp;q=
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.jacobs-university.de%2F" target=3D"_blank">https://www.jacobs-university.d=
e/</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te></div></div>

--00000000000036661905c6ae63bd--


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/1splH1zrO-3c5geGH4AdW1QvG7c>
Subject: Re: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-15.txt
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------=_NextPart_000_04F8_01D774BF.B07F5770
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Hello Rob,
I included all comments from the AD review and associated mails. I =
stored an
updated version of the draft.
Thanks for all the comments.
Regards Balazs

-----Original Message-----
From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of =
internet-drafts@ietf.org
Sent: 2021. j=FAlius 9., p=E9ntek 12:37
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: netmod@ietf.org
Subject: [netmod] I-D Action:
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-15.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Instance Data File Format
        Authors         : Balazs Lengyel
                          Benoit Claise
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-15.txt
	Pages           : 28
	Date            : 2021-07-09

Abstract:
   There is a need to document data defined in YANG models at design,
   implementation time or when a live server is unavailable.  This
   document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance data,
   which follows the syntax and semantics of existing YANG models, and
   annotates it with metadata.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-for=
mat
/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-fil=
e-f
ormat-15

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-=
forma
t-15


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

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Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 13:49:39 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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On Fri, Jul 09, 2021 at 09:10:34AM +0000, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote:
> 
> "YANG modules that are only required to satisfy import-only dependencies MAY be excluded from the leaf-list.  If they are excluded then the consumer of the instance data file can choose any versions of the YANG modules that satisfy the import dependency."
>

Sorry, this wording is a bit wrong or possibly misleading. I assume
your intention was this:

OLD:

If they are excluded then the consumer of the instance data file can
choose any versions of the YANG modules that satisfy the import
dependency.

NEW:

If they are excluded then the consumer of the instance data file has
to apply the YANG language rules to resolve the imports.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 14:01:13 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>
Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/lmkNxs_N9CwBnvKUj31rjK5XTMQ>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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On Fri, Jul 09, 2021 at 08:57:34AM +0000, tom petch wrote:
> From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Sent: 08 July 2021 11:13
> 
> On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 09:30:27AM +0000, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote:
> > It is perhaps worth noting that the NETCONF copy-config allows for the configuration to be specified using any URI, but the server capabilities announce which URI schemes are supported.
> >
> > Hence, I think that it is okay for the YANG model to use URI, but I think the draft, and data node description should constrain the URI schemes that allowed (perhaps file:// and https://).  This would allow support for future URI schemes to be added in a future revision of the YANG instance data module, if required.
> >
> 
> I think it is not "allowed" but "mandatory to implement". We should
> allow implementations to support an ftps:// scheme as long as there
> is a common baseline.
> 
> <tp>
> I am confused.  Is ftps: intended to be an existing scheme or a hypothetical one that may appear in the future.  I do not see it in the IANA registry
> https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/uri-schemes.xhtml#uri-schemes-1
> 
> sftp: appears as a provisional entry in the IANA registry but AFACT did not get specified.  I recall a debate about ftps: v sftp:  I favoured the former but lost but then I did not see any further work on either.
>

I used 'ftps:' as an example, I should have taken the time to find RFC
4395 and then I should have picked 'example:'.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>, =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBMZW5neWVs?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
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Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 12:23:11 +0000
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Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
CC: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>, "Andy Bierman" <andy@yumaworks.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "Benoit Claise" <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 12:25:40 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/wQOr_3mtwLgX1vmLiFSkpp_PsrU>
Subject: Re: [netmod] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
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Juergen,

Yes, I agree that is a better phrasing.

Thanks for suggesting it.
Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Sent: 09 July 2021 12:50
> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> Cc: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy Bierman
> <andy@yumaworks.com>; netmod@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
> Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format
>=20
> On Fri, Jul 09, 2021 at 09:10:34AM +0000, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote:
> >
> > "YANG modules that are only required to satisfy import-only dependencie=
s
> MAY be excluded from the leaf-list.  If they are excluded then the consum=
er
> of the instance data file can choose any versions of the YANG modules tha=
t
> satisfy the import dependency."
> >
>=20
> Sorry, this wording is a bit wrong or possibly misleading. I assume
> your intention was this:
>=20
> OLD:
>=20
> If they are excluded then the consumer of the instance data file can
> choose any versions of the YANG modules that satisfy the import
> dependency.
>=20
> NEW:
>=20
> If they are excluded then the consumer of the instance data file has
> to apply the YANG language rules to resolve the imports.
>=20
> /js
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 09:50:03 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHR8HwLa-PVBTwL67VvFZxegnWC-ZQNNhy_8+M1+QTgeAQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/TB_iaIH_HGChQ-4nPAMwL4qS1nQ>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
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--000000000000c60c2905c6b39086
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On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Andy,
>
>
>
> Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be
> sufficient.  My point being that automatically filtering out default valu=
es
> isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.
>
>
>
> E.g., something along these lines:
>
>
>
> leaf exclude-defaults {
>
>   type boolean;
>
>   default true;
>
>   description
>
>     =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file.
>
>
>
>       When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined a=
nd
>
>       where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the
> content
>
>       data.
>
>
>
>       When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered,
> and
>
>       may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D
>
> }
>
>
>
> Would this satisfy your concern?
>


no.

I am confused as to what problem you are trying to solve here.
There does not seem to be one.

Maybe it is "The reader needs to know if the writer reported defaults or
not".
What problem is solved because the reader knows this info?

There has always been confusion between implementing YANG default behavior
and a protocol that allows a client to request how defaults are handled in
the response.
RFC 6243 is a hack needed because the WG never actually agreed on how
defaults should be treated within a server.

A YANG default is the value that MUST be used in the event the leaf or
leaf-list instance
does not exist.  So the term "defaults present" only really applies to
reporting YANG defaults.
The YANG default behavior is always in effect. Unlike SMIv2 DEFVAL, it is
mandatory to support.

The with-defaults parameter is optional to implement, so it is not even
true to say that
all servers report defaults, let alone say that all YANG instance files are
from NC/RC servers.

For basic-style=3Dreport-all, there is never any default suppression.  Ever=
y
value, including
missing nodes with YANG defaults, are reported as if they are nodes which
exist.
For this mode, the leafs in this draft are useless.

For basic-style=3Dtrim there is default suppression.  A node is considered
not present if it has the YANG default value, even if a client sets it to
the default value.
For this mode, the leafs in this draft are useless. Any leaf that contains
the default value is a YANG default that is being reported.

For basic-style=3Dexplicit there is default suppression.  A node is conside=
red
not present if it has not been set by a client, ignoring the YANG default
value.
For this mode, the data reported in the content for this draft are useless.
Any leaf that contains the default value could be a default but it is not i=
f
it was set by a client.  The 'default' attribute must be added to the node
to
identify it as a reported default.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6




>
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
>

Andy


>
>
> *From:* netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman
> *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16
> *To:* NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> The module has this object:
>
>
>
>     leaf includes-defaults {
>
>        type enumeration {
>
>          enum report-all {
>
>            value 1;
>
>            description
>
>              "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
>
>                any default values.";
>
>          }
>
>          enum trim {
>
>            value 2;
>
>            description
>
>              "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
>
>                the actual value is the default value SHOULD
>
>                NOT be included.";
>
>          }
>
>          enum explicit {
>
>            value 3;
>
>            description
>
>              "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
>
>                the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
>
>                included. However, if the actual value was set by
>
>                a NETCONF client or other management application
>
>                by the way of an explicit management operation the
>
>                data node SHOULD be included.";
>
>          }
>
>        }
>
>        default trim;
>
>
>
> The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this
>
> leaf is too server-centric to ignore.
>
>
>
> Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF
> server.
>
> This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct.
>
>
>
> IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also
>
> know the YANG defaults.  The solution is incomplete anyway because
>
> the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.
>
> The  "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults.
>
> IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown=
".
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>

--000000000000c60c2905c6b39086
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wi=
lton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-3651847934341944579WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Andy,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking tha=
t a boolean flag might be sufficient.=C2=A0 My point being that automatical=
ly filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>E.g., something along these lines:<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>leaf exclude-defaults {<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0 type boolean;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0 default true;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CCan be used to red=
uce the size of the content data file.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When unset or s=
et to true, data nodes that have a default defined and<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actua=
l value is the default value are excluded from the content<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0data.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When set to fal=
se, data nodes with default value are not filtered, and<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 may appear in t=
he content data.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Would this satisfy your concern?</span></p></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>no.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>I am confused as to what problem you are trying to solve here.</=
div><div>There does not seem to be one.</div><div><br></div><div>Maybe it i=
s &quot;The reader needs to know if the writer reported defaults or not&quo=
t;.</div><div>What problem is solved because the reader knows this info?</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>There has always been confusion between implementing=
 YANG default behavior</div><div>and a protocol that allows a client to req=
uest how defaults are handled in the response.</div><div>RFC 6243 is a hack=
 needed because the WG never actually agreed on how</div><div>defaults shou=
ld be treated within a server.</div><div><br></div><div>A YANG default is t=
he value that MUST be used in the event the leaf or leaf-list instance</div=
><div>does not exist.=C2=A0 So the term &quot;defaults present&quot; only r=
eally applies to reporting YANG defaults.</div><div>The YANG default behavi=
or is always in effect. Unlike SMIv2 DEFVAL, it is mandatory to support.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>The with-defaults parameter is optional to implement=
, so it is not even true to say that</div><div>all servers report defaults,=
 let alone say that all YANG instance files are from NC/RC servers.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>For basic-style=3Dreport-all, there is never any default =
suppression.=C2=A0 Every value, including</div><div>missing nodes with YANG=
 defaults, are reported as if they are nodes which exist.</div><div>For thi=
s mode, the leafs in this draft are useless.</div><div><br></div><div><div>=
For basic-style=3Dtrim there is default suppression.=C2=A0 A node is consid=
ered</div><div>not present if it has the YANG default value, even if a clie=
nt sets it to the default value.</div><div>For this mode, the leafs in this=
 draft are useless. Any leaf that contains</div><div>the default value is a=
 YANG default that is being reported.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><div><=
div>For basic-style=3Dexplicit there is default suppression.=C2=A0 A node i=
s considered</div><div>not present if it has not been set by a client, igno=
ring the YANG default value.</div><div>For this mode, the data reported in =
the content for this draft are useless.</div><div>Any leaf that contains th=
e default value could be a default but it is not if</div></div></div><div>i=
t was set by a client.=C2=A0 The &#39;default&#39; attribute must be added =
to the node to=C2=A0</div><div>identify it as a reported default.</div><div=
><br></div></div><div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6=
243#section-6">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6</a><=
br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"overflow-wrap=
: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-3651847934341944579WordSection1"><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards,<br>
Rob<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-=
word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-3651847934341944579WordSection1"><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> netmod &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">netmod-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andy Bierman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 08 July 2021 18:16<br>
<b>To:</b> NetMod WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The module has this object:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type =
enumeration {<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 enum report-all {<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;All data nodes SHOULD be included inde=
pendent of<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.&quot;;<u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 enum trim {<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Data nodes that have a default defined=
 and where<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default =
value SHOULD<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.&quot;;<u></u><u=
></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 enum explicit {<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Data nodes that have a default defined=
 and where<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default =
value SHOULD NOT be<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual=
 value was set by<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other manage=
ment application<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit manage=
ment operation the<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.&qu=
ot;;<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<u><=
/u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 defau=
lt trim;<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IET=
F standards, but this<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">leaf is too server-centric to ignore.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Consider the possibility that the source of the file=
 is NOT a NETCONF server.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This data may not be known so the default of &quot;t=
rim&quot; may not be correct.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows t=
he schema will also<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">know the YANG defaults.=C2=A0 The solution is incomp=
lete anyway because<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is no=
t enough.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The=C2=A0 &quot;report-all-tagged&quot; mode must be=
 used to identify defaults.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an=
 enum called &quot;unknown&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000c60c2905c6b39086--


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Common YANG Data Types
        Author          : Juergen Schoenwaelder
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-07.txt
	Pages           : 41
	Date            : 2021-07-09

Abstract:
   This document introduces a collection of common data types to be used
   with the YANG data modeling language.  This document obsoletes RFC
   6991.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-07


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 09:41:00 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHRwzRajMmSd2mArLeLr8OOxTdLEid3bEDdVH0vgNysTfg@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/qeRVpGQqO_k55IxHQQ2q4v3tU1M>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
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On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Andy,
>
>
>
> Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be
> sufficient.  My point being that automatically filtering out default valu=
es
> isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.
>
>
>


The solution is simple.
Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement.

If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to
include defaults.
If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or
defaults were not added.

The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode.
All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever
been able to convince the others that theirs is right.


Andy


> E.g., something along these lines:
>
>
>
> leaf exclude-defaults {
>
>   type boolean;
>
>   default true;
>
>   description
>
>     =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file.
>
>
>
>       When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined a=
nd
>
>       where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the
> content
>
>       data.
>
>
>
>       When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered,
> and
>
>       may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D
>
> }
>
>
>
> Would this satisfy your concern?
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman
> *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16
> *To:* NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> The module has this object:
>
>
>
>     leaf includes-defaults {
>
>        type enumeration {
>
>          enum report-all {
>
>            value 1;
>
>            description
>
>              "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
>
>                any default values.";
>
>          }
>
>          enum trim {
>
>            value 2;
>
>            description
>
>              "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
>
>                the actual value is the default value SHOULD
>
>                NOT be included.";
>
>          }
>
>          enum explicit {
>
>            value 3;
>
>            description
>
>              "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
>
>                the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
>
>                included. However, if the actual value was set by
>
>                a NETCONF client or other management application
>
>                by the way of an explicit management operation the
>
>                data node SHOULD be included.";
>
>          }
>
>        }
>
>        default trim;
>
>
>
> The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this
>
> leaf is too server-centric to ignore.
>
>
>
> Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF
> server.
>
> This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct.
>
>
>
> IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also
>
> know the YANG defaults.  The solution is incomplete anyway because
>
> the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.
>
> The  "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults.
>
> IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown=
".
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wi=
lton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-7010644752542316770WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Andy,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking tha=
t a boolean flag might be sufficient.=C2=A0 My point being that automatical=
ly filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The solution is simple.</div><div>Get=
 rid of the inappropriate &quot;default trim&quot; statement.</div><div><br=
></div><div>If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that w=
as used to include defaults.</div><div>If not then the information is eithe=
r not known, not applicable, or defaults were not added.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>The &quot;default&quot; statement is a bug because there is no defau=
lt basic-mode.</div><div>All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments a=
nd no camp has ever</div><div>been able to convince the others that theirs =
is right.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" sty=
le=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-701064475254231677=
0WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>E.g., something along these lines:<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>leaf exclude-defaults {<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0 type boolean;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0 default true;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CCan be used to red=
uce the size of the content data file.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When unset or s=
et to true, data nodes that have a default defined and<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actua=
l value is the default value are excluded from the content<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0data.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When set to fal=
se, data nodes with default value are not filtered, and<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 may appear in t=
he content data.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Would this satisfy your concern?<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards,<br>
Rob<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> netmod &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">netmod-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andy Bierman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 08 July 2021 18:16<br>
<b>To:</b> NetMod WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The module has this object:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type =
enumeration {<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 enum report-all {<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;All data nodes SHOULD be included inde=
pendent of<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.&quot;;<u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 enum trim {<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Data nodes that have a default defined=
 and where<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default =
value SHOULD<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.&quot;;<u></u><u=
></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 enum explicit {<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Data nodes that have a default defined=
 and where<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default =
value SHOULD NOT be<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual=
 value was set by<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other manage=
ment application<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit manage=
ment operation the<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.&qu=
ot;;<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<u><=
/u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 defau=
lt trim;<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IET=
F standards, but this<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">leaf is too server-centric to ignore.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Consider the possibility that the source of the file=
 is NOT a NETCONF server.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This data may not be known so the default of &quot;t=
rim&quot; may not be correct.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows t=
he schema will also<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">know the YANG defaults.=C2=A0 The solution is incomp=
lete anyway because<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is no=
t enough.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The=C2=A0 &quot;report-all-tagged&quot; mode must be=
 used to identify defaults.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an=
 enum called &quot;unknown&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000043910e05c6c78e9c--


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Instance Data File Format
        Authors         : Balazs Lengyel
                          Benoit Claise
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-16.txt
	Pages           : 28
	Date            : 2021-07-12

Abstract:
   There is a need to document data defined in YANG models at design
   time, implementation time or when a live server is unavailable.  This
   document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance data,
   which follows the syntax and semantics of existing YANG models, and
   annotates it with metadata.


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Lars Eggert has entered the following ballot position for
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

All comments below are about very minor potential issues that you may choose to
address in some way - or ignore - as you see fit. Some were flagged by
automated tools (via https://github.com/larseggert/ietf-reviewtool), so there
will likely be some false positives. There is no need to let me know what you
did with these suggestions.

Section 1. , paragraph 2, nit:
> s both applied configuration data as well as status and statistics. As a resu
>                                   ^^^^^^^^^^
Probable usage error. Use "and" after "both".

Section 6. , paragraph 2, nit:
> ormat): HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2019 20:56:30 GMT Server: example-s
>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The date 26 Jan 2019 is not a Thursday, but a Saturday.

Uncited references: [RFC6991].

These URLs point to tools.ietf.org, which is being deprecated:
 * http://tools.ietf.org/wg/netconf/

These URLs in the document can probably be converted to HTTPS:
 * http://tools.ietf.org/wg/netconf/




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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks to Alexey Melnikov for the SECDIR review.

** Section 4.  â€œdifferencesâ€ bullet.  Per â€œâ€¦ defined in RFC8072â€, please make
â€œRFC8072â€ an reference.

** Section 6.  Please review Alexeyâ€™s feedback on providing an empty line
between the HTTP header and playload.

** Section 6.  â€œsame request in RESTCONF (using JSON format)â€.  Missing â€œ:â€
making the JSON invalid.

OLD
   { "ietf-nmda-compare:input" {

NEW
   { "ietf-nmda-compare:input": {

** Section 9.  The primary new security issue is definitely the possibility of
a denial of service as is documented.  Iâ€™m not sure what assumption are being
made about the datastores -- would it be possible that a user doesnâ€™t have read
access to either the source and target of the comparison, but would be able to
invoke the RPC?  If so, this might leak configuration information.




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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Updated YANG Module Revision Handling
        Authors         : Robert Wilton
                          Reshad Rahman
                          Balazs Lengyel
                          Joe Clarke
                          Jason Sterne
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning-03.txt
	Pages           : 40
	Date            : 2021-07-12

Abstract:
   This document specifies a new YANG module update procedure that can
   document when non-backwards-compatible changes have occurred during
   the evolution of a YANG module.  It extends the YANG import statement
   with an earliest revision filter to better represent inter-module
   dependencies.  It provides help and guidelines for managing the
   lifecycle of YANG modules and individual schema nodes.  It provides a
   mechanism, via the revision-label YANG extension, to specify a
   revision identifier for YANG modules and submodules.  This document
   updates RFC 7950, RFC 8407 and RFC 8525.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Semantic Versioning
        Authors         : Benoit Claise
                          Joe Clarke
                          Reshad Rahman
                          Robert Wilton
                          Balazs Lengyel
                          Jason Sterne
                          Kevin D'Souza
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-semver-03.txt
	Pages           : 23
	Date            : 2021-07-12

Abstract:
   This document specifies a scheme and guidelines for applying a
   modified set of semantic versioning rules to revisions of YANG
   modules.  Additionally, this document defines a revision-label for
   this modified semver scheme.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-semver/

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Subject: Re: [netmod] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Comparison of NMDA datastores
        Authors         : Alexander Clemm
                          Yingzhen Qu
                          Jeff Tantsura
                          Andy Bierman
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-10.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2021-07-12

Abstract:
   This document defines an RPC operation to compare management
   datastores that comply with the NMDA architecture.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-10

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-10


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 15:42:30 -0700
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To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff@ietf.org,  NetMod WG Chairs <netmod-chairs@ietf.org>, NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>,  Joel Jaeggli <joelja@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: (with COMMENT)
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--000000000000cab04705c6f4d620
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 2:45 PM Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thanks to Alexey Melnikov for the secdir review.
>
> I'm not experienced enough with YANG to know whether or how problematic
> it is that the "anydata subtree-filter" node contents are described by
> reference to the NETCONF specification, which has a particular (XML)
> representation of YANG data and does not give a clear presentation of
> the abstract YANG structure/semantics to be used.  Is it possible to use
> the filter-spec choice option when, for example, RESTCONF is used with
> JSON encoding?
>
>

There is not a standard specification for subtree filtering using JSON
encoding
instead of XML. RESTCONF has its own somewhat compatible filtering
mechanism.
It would require a new NETCONF work item to officially expand subtree
filtering
to support JSON.  (Unofficially, there is RFC for JSON encoding of YANG
data and an
implementation could map the RFC 6241 text to JSON).



> Section 4
>
>    o  report-origin: When set, this parameter indicates that origin
>       metadata should be included as part of RPC output.  When this
>       parameter is omitted, origin metadata in comparisons that involve
>       <operational> is by default omitted.
>
> Why is it important to complicate the semantics of this parameter with a
> dependence on the datastore?  It seems like it would be simpler to get
> this effect by having clients specify report-origin when the target is
> not <operational>.  Note that changing the semantics would require text
> changes in subsequent parts of the document for consistency.  (If
> retaining the current semantics, please clarify whether "comparisons
> that involve <operational>" applies when operational is source, target,
> or either.)
>
>
IMO NMDA is way too complicated, so I cannot argue with that complaint.
The origin attribute only applies to the <operational> datastore.
I think it is not allowed to appear elsewhere.


Section 9
>
> In addition to noting that the "compare" RPC is sensitive and should be
> restricted to authorized parties, I suggest to reiterate that the
> "compare" operation should not provide a mechanism to work around access
> control on other nodes -- that is, a result should only be returned if
> the requestor would be allowed to access both the "source" and "target"
> trees independently of the RPC.  In particular, even a "no-matches"
> output should not be returned, as that might provide a way to determine
> the structure of the datastore even without accessing it.
>

Fortunately the access control model (NACM) is per server and not per
datastore
so the same access rules apply to all datastores. I agree the no-access
subtrees
should be silently skipped, the same way that GET operations are treated in
NACM.



> We might also incorporate by reference the security considerations for
> subtree filtering (RFC 6241) and xpath filtering (RFC 6991).
>
> NITS
>
> Section 1
>
>    an unusually long time to do so.  This can be the case due to certain
>    conditions not being met, certain parts of the configuration not
>    propagating because considered inactive, resource dependencies not
>    being resolved, or even implementation errors in corner conditions.
>
> "because considered inactive" seems like an incomplete clause; maybe
> "because they are considered inactive"?
>
> Section 4
>
>    o  differences: This parameter contains the list of differences.
>       Those differences are encoded per YANG-Patch data model defined in
>
> s/YANG-Patch/the YANG-Patch/
> I'd also consider s/per/according to/, since this is not exactly a
> logic-driven deduction but rather more of a new requirement.
>
> Section 6
>
>    for the management of interfaces defined in [RFC8343].  The excerpt
>    of the data model whose instantiation is the basis of the comparison
>    is as follows:
>
> I feel like this phrasing is a little misleading, as not only is the
> following snippet only a subset of the nodes contained within "container
> interfaces" but the descriptions have been greatly abbreviated as well.
> Perhaps we could say something about "for the purposes of understanding
> the subsequent example, the following subset of the [RFC8343] data model
> is provided".
>
>    Accept: application/yang-d
>
> (I believe this truncated header field was already noted by another
> reviewer.)
>
>

Andy

--000000000000cab04705c6f4d620
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 2:45 PM Benjam=
in Kaduk via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex">Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: No Objection<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tatement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/" r=
el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-=
ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Thanks to Alexey Melnikov for the secdir review.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m not experienced enough with YANG to know whether or how problematic=
<br>
it is that the &quot;anydata subtree-filter&quot; node contents are describ=
ed by<br>
reference to the NETCONF specification, which has a particular (XML)<br>
representation of YANG data and does not give a clear presentation of<br>
the abstract YANG structure/semantics to be used.=C2=A0 Is it possible to u=
se<br>
the filter-spec choice option when, for example, RESTCONF is used with<br>
JSON encoding?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>There is not a standard=
 specification for subtree filtering using JSON encoding</div><div>instead =
of XML. RESTCONF has its own somewhat compatible filtering mechanism.</div>=
<div>It would require a new NETCONF work item to officially expand subtree =
filtering</div><div>to support JSON.=C2=A0 (Unofficially, there is RFC for =
JSON encoding of YANG data and an</div><div>implementation could map the RF=
C 6241 text to JSON).</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Section 4<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 report-origin: When set, this parameter indicates that=
 origin<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 metadata should be included as part of RPC output.=C2=
=A0 When this<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 parameter is omitted, origin metadata in comparisons t=
hat involve<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;operational&gt; is by default omitted.<br>
<br>
Why is it important to complicate the semantics of this parameter with a<br=
>
dependence on the datastore?=C2=A0 It seems like it would be simpler to get=
<br>
this effect by having clients specify report-origin when the target is<br>
not &lt;operational&gt;.=C2=A0 Note that changing the semantics would requi=
re text<br>
changes in subsequent parts of the document for consistency.=C2=A0 (If<br>
retaining the current semantics, please clarify whether &quot;comparisons<b=
r>
that involve &lt;operational&gt;&quot; applies when operational is source, =
target,<br>
or either.)<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>IMO NMDA is way too complicated, so I =
cannot argue with that complaint.</div><div>The origin attribute only appli=
es to the &lt;operational&gt; datastore.</div><div>I think it is not allowe=
d to appear elsewhere.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Section 9<br>
<br>
In addition to noting that the &quot;compare&quot; RPC is sensitive and sho=
uld be<br>
restricted to authorized parties, I suggest to reiterate that the<br>
&quot;compare&quot; operation should not provide a mechanism to work around=
 access<br>
control on other nodes -- that is, a result should only be returned if<br>
the requestor would be allowed to access both the &quot;source&quot; and &q=
uot;target&quot;<br>
trees independently of the RPC.=C2=A0 In particular, even a &quot;no-matche=
s&quot;<br>
output should not be returned, as that might provide a way to determine<br>
the structure of the datastore even without accessing it.<br></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>Fortunately the access control model (NACM) is per serve=
r and not per datastore</div><div>so the same access rules apply to all dat=
astores. I agree the no-access subtrees</div><div>should be silently skippe=
d, the same way that GET operations are treated in NACM.</div><div><br></di=
v><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
We might also incorporate by reference the security considerations for<br>
subtree filtering (RFC 6241) and xpath filtering (RFC 6991).<br>
<br>
NITS<br>
<br>
Section 1<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0an unusually long time to do so.=C2=A0 This can be the case du=
e to certain<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0conditions not being met, certain parts of the configuration n=
ot<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0propagating because considered inactive, resource dependencies=
 not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0being resolved, or even implementation errors in corner condit=
ions.<br>
<br>
&quot;because considered inactive&quot; seems like an incomplete clause; ma=
ybe<br>
&quot;because they are considered inactive&quot;?<br>
<br>
Section 4<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 differences: This parameter contains the list of diffe=
rences.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Those differences are encoded per YANG-Patch data mode=
l defined in<br>
<br>
s/YANG-Patch/the YANG-Patch/<br>
I&#39;d also consider s/per/according to/, since this is not exactly a<br>
logic-driven deduction but rather more of a new requirement.<br>
<br>
Section 6<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for the management of interfaces defined in [RFC8343].=C2=A0 T=
he excerpt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the data model whose instantiation is the basis of the comp=
arison<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0is as follows:<br>
<br>
I feel like this phrasing is a little misleading, as not only is the<br>
following snippet only a subset of the nodes contained within &quot;contain=
er<br>
interfaces&quot; but the descriptions have been greatly abbreviated as well=
.<br>
Perhaps we could say something about &quot;for the purposes of understandin=
g<br>
the subsequent example, the following subset of the [RFC8343] data model<br=
>
is provided&quot;.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Accept: application/yang-d<br>
<br>
(I believe this truncated header field was already noted by another<br>
reviewer.)<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</=
div></div></div>

--000000000000cab04705c6f4d620--


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 22:38:59 -0400
From: Reshad Rahman <reshad@yahoo.com>
To: <netmod@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning-03.txt
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Subject: Re: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning-03.txt
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WG,

Here is a summary of the changes which went in since last rev:

1) BC/NBC rules for non config data (https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-=
dt/issues/15). We decided, based on WG feedback, that trying to (re)open BC/=
NBC for non-config nodes was out of scope for this document.
2) Whitespace changes in a YANG module (https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-v=
er-dt/issues/8). See section 3.1.
3) BC/NBC impact of revision statements (https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-=
ver-dt/issues/12). See section 3.1.1.
4) Renamed extension nbc-changes to non-backwards-compatible
5) Clarify when we can add non-backwards-compatible extension (https://gith=
ub.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/83). See section 7.
6) Mention submodules (instead of just modules) where appropriate: https://=
github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/95
7) Various editorial changes

Regards,
Reshad (on behalf of the authors/contributors).

=EF=BB=BFOn 2021-07-12, 2:08 PM, "netmod-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of internet-d=
rafts@ietf.org" <netmod-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of internet-drafts@ietf.o=
rg> wrote:


    A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire=
ctories.
    This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.

            Title           : Updated YANG Module Revision Handling
            Authors         : Robert Wilton
                              Reshad Rahman
                              Balazs Lengyel
                              Joe Clarke
                              Jason Sterne
    	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning-03.txt
    	Pages           : 40
    	Date            : 2021-07-12

    Abstract:
       This document specifies a new YANG module update procedure that can
       document when non-backwards-compatible changes have occurred during
       the evolution of a YANG module.  It extends the YANG import statemen=
t
       with an earliest revision filter to better represent inter-module
       dependencies.  It provides help and guidelines for managing the
       lifecycle of YANG modules and individual schema nodes.  It provides =
a
       mechanism, via the revision-label YANG extension, to specify a
       revision identifier for YANG modules and submodules.  This document
       updates RFC 7950, RFC 8407 and RFC 8525.


    The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioni=
ng/

    There is also an htmlized version available at:
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-ver=
sioning-03

    A diff from the previous version is available at:
    https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-version=
ing-03


    Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
    ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


    _______________________________________________
    netmod mailing list
    netmod@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod



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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/o9x44Q8CgJqNDhNRq7FVzh_sMRk>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
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Hello Andy,

Looking through the use-cases I think the producer will always know =
whether it includes default values or not. This is the case if the =
instance data set is produced by the server e.g. in UC4, UC5,  or if it =
created by some design activity UC1, UC2, UC3, UC8. (UC6 and UC7 are so =
broad and loosely defined it is hard to say much about them.)

=20

Once the producer knows whether defaults are included or not it can set =
the include-defaults accordingly, so the default value for =
include-defaults is not so important. However, I chose trim as the =
default because:

*	during the WGLC the draft explicitly stated that defaults SHOULD NOT =
be included and the WG was happy/ok with that
*	IMHO It is better to have short files,=20

=20

Note, I used the term producer, as IMHO the above is true in all cases =
whether the server produces the file or some design activity creates the =
server.

Regards Balazs

=20

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 8., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 19:16
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=20

Hi,

=20

The module has this object:

=20

    leaf includes-defaults {
       type enumeration {
         enum report-all {
           value 1;
           description
             "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
               any default values.";
         }
         enum trim {
           value 2;
           description
             "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
               the actual value is the default value SHOULD
               NOT be included.";
         }
         enum explicit {
           value 3;
           description
             "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
               the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
               included. However, if the actual value was set by
               a NETCONF client or other management application
               by the way of an explicit management operation the
               data node SHOULD be included.";
         }
       }
       default trim;
=20

The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but =
this

leaf is too server-centric to ignore.

=20

Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF =
server.

This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct.

=20

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also

know the YANG defaults.  The solution is incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.

The  "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called =
"unknown".

=20

=20

Andy

=20

=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello Andy,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Looking through the use-cases I think the producer =
will always know whether it includes default values or not. This is the =
case if the instance data set is produced by the server e.g. in UC4, =
UC5,=C2=A0 or if it created by some design activity UC1, UC2, UC3, UC8. =
(UC6 and UC7 are so broad and loosely defined it is hard to say much =
about them.)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Once the producer knows whether defaults are included =
or not it can set the include-defaults accordingly, so the default value =
for include-defaults is not so important. However, I chose trim as the =
default because:<o:p></o:p></p><ul style=3D'margin-top:0cm' =
type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>during the WGLC the =
draft explicitly stated that defaults SHOULD NOT be included and the WG =
was happy/ok with that<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'> IMHO It is better to =
have short files, <o:p></o:p></li></ul><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Note, I used =
the term <b><i>producer</i></b>, as IMHO the above is true in all cases =
whether the server produces the file or some design activity creates the =
server.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Regards =
Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> netmod =
&lt;netmod-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Andy =
Bierman<br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 8., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k =
19:16<br><b>To:</b> NetMod WG &lt;netmod@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> =
[netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The module has this =
object:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><pre =
style=3D'white-space:pre-wrap'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults =
{<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type =
enumeration {<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
enum report-all {<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 value 1;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 description<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;All data nodes SHOULD be included =
independent of<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default =
values.&quot;;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
enum trim {<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 value 2;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 description<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be =
included.&quot;;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
enum explicit {<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 value 3;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 description<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD NOT be<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value =
was set by<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management =
application<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit management =
operation the<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be =
included.&quot;;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default =
trim;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D'white-space:pre-wrap'><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF =
standards, but this<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>leaf =
is too server-centric to ignore.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Consider the possibility that the source of the file =
is NOT a NETCONF server.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>This data may not be known so the default of =
&quot;trim&quot; may not be correct.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the =
schema will also<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>know the =
YANG defaults.&nbsp; The solution is incomplete anyway =
because<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the presence of a =
leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The&nbsp; &quot;report-all-tagged&quot; mode must be =
used to identify defaults.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an =
enum called &quot;unknown&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Andy<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 08:31:35 -0700
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Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
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On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 8:07 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsso=
n.com>
wrote:

> Hello Andy,
>
> Looking through the use-cases I think the producer will always know
> whether it includes default values or not. This is the case if the instan=
ce
> data set is produced by the server e.g. in UC4, UC5,  or if it created by
> some design activity UC1, UC2, UC3, UC8. (UC6 and UC7 are so broad and
> loosely defined it is hard to say much about them.)
>
>
>
> Once the producer knows whether defaults are included or not it can set
> the include-defaults accordingly, so the default value for include-defaul=
ts
> is not so important. However, I chose trim as the default because:
>
>    - during the WGLC the draft explicitly stated that defaults SHOULD NOT
>    be included and the WG was happy/ok with that
>    - IMHO It is better to have short files,
>
>
>



I strongly object to having a default-stmt since it does matter and
the usage is incorrect.
If the include-defaults is not set then conveying a default value of 'trim'
is incorrect.
Leaving it out of a representation does not change the semantics of the
model.
The consumer will add that leaf =3D "trim" if it is missing.

Andy

Note, I used the term *producer*, as IMHO the above is true in all cases
> whether the server produces the file or some design activity creates the
> server.
>
> Regards Balazs
>
>
>
> *From:* netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman
> *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 8., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 19:16
> *To:* NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> The module has this object:
>
>
>
>     leaf includes-defaults {
>
>        type enumeration {
>
>          enum report-all {
>
>            value 1;
>
>            description
>
>              "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
>
>                any default values.";
>
>          }
>
>          enum trim {
>
>            value 2;
>
>            description
>
>              "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
>
>                the actual value is the default value SHOULD
>
>                NOT be included.";
>
>          }
>
>          enum explicit {
>
>            value 3;
>
>            description
>
>              "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
>
>                the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
>
>                included. However, if the actual value was set by
>
>                a NETCONF client or other management application
>
>                by the way of an explicit management operation the
>
>                data node SHOULD be included.";
>
>          }
>
>        }
>
>        default trim;
>
>
>
> The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this
>
> leaf is too server-centric to ignore.
>
>
>
> Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF
> server.
>
> This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct.
>
>
>
> IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also
>
> know the YANG defaults.  The solution is incomplete anyway because
>
> the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.
>
> The  "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults.
>
> IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown=
".
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>

--000000000000891ed905c702efb9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 8:07 AM Bal=
=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com">balazs.=
lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;=
"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-6199324611685835388WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">Hello Andy,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Looking through t=
he use-cases I think the producer will always know whether it includes defa=
ult values or not. This is the case if the instance data set is produced by=
 the server e.g. in UC4, UC5,=C2=A0 or if it created by some design activit=
y UC1, UC2, UC3, UC8. (UC6 and UC7 are so broad and loosely defined it is h=
ard to say much about them.)<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Once the producer knows whether de=
faults are included or not it can set the include-defaults accordingly, so =
the default value for include-defaults is not so important. However, I chos=
e trim as the default because:<u></u><u></u></p><ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm=
" type=3D"disc"><li class=3D"gmail-m_-6199324611685835388MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:0cm">during the WGLC the draft explicitly stated that =
defaults SHOULD NOT be included and the WG was happy/ok with that<u></u><u>=
</u></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_-6199324611685835388MsoListParagraph" style=
=3D"margin-left:0cm"> IMHO It is better to have short files, <u></u><u></u>=
</li></ul><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0</p></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I strongly object to havi=
ng a default-stmt since it does matter and the=C2=A0usage is incorrect.</di=
v><div>If the include-defaults is not set then conveying a default value of=
 &#39;trim&#39; is incorrect.</div><div>Leaving it out of a representation =
does not change the semantics of the model.</div><div>The consumer will add=
 that leaf =3D &quot;trim&quot; if it is missing.</div><div><br></div><div>=
Andy</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmai=
l-m_-6199324611685835388WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Note, I used the term <b><i>producer</i></b>, as IMHO t=
he above is true in all cases whether the server produces the file or some =
design activity creates the server.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>Regards Balazs<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></p><div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;bo=
rder-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><b>From:</b> netmod &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">netmod-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Andy Bie=
rman<br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 8., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 19:16<b=
r><b>To:</b> NetMod WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> [netmod] yang-instance-file=
 include-defaults leaf<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">The module has this object:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wra=
p"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {<=
u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><sp=
an style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 e=
num report-all {<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;<u></=
u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></span>=
</pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;All data nodes SHOULD be include=
d independent of<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.&quot;;<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><spa=
n style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<=
u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pr=
e><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"colo=
r:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 descr=
iption<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Data =
nodes that have a default defined and where<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre>=
<span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default val=
ue SHOULD<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 NOT be included.&quot;;<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"c=
olor:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u=
></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 value 3;<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:blac=
k">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=
<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Data nodes =
that have a default defined and where<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHO=
ULD NOT be<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value was set by<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or oth=
er management application<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"col=
or:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit management operation the<u>=
</u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data nod=
e SHOULD be included.&quot;;<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"=
color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<u></u><u></=
u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default trim;<u></u><u></u></span></pre><=
pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></pre><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The draft is extremely server=
-centric, like most IETF standards, but this<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal">leaf is too server-centric to ignore.<u></u><u></u></p=
></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">Consider the possibility that the source of the file is N=
OT a NETCONF server.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thi=
s data may not be known so the default of &quot;trim&quot; may not be corre=
ct.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMO this leaf is noise because any to=
ol that knows the schema will also<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">know the YANG defaults.=C2=A0 The solution is incomplete anyway =
because<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">the presence of =
a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">The=C2=A0 &quot;report-all-tagged&quot; mode must be =
used to identify defaults.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called &quot;u=
nknown&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000891ed905c702efb9--


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Reviewer: Matt Joras
Review result: Ready with Nits

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

For more information, please see the FAQ at

<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.

Document: draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-??
Reviewer: Matt Joras
Review Date: 2021-07-13
IETF LC End Date: 2021-07-02
IESG Telechat date: 2021-07-15

Nits/editorial comments:

Consider rewording this sentence in performance considerations:

"One possibility for an implementation to mitigate against such a possibility
is to limit the number of requests that is served to a client, or to any number
of clients, in any one time interval, rejecting requests made at a higher
frequency than the implementation can reasonably sustain."

It is excessively wordy and uses the word "possibility" twice. I would suggest
breaking this into two separate sentences.



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Matt, thank you for your review. I have entered a No Objection ballot =
for this document.

Lars


> On 2021-7-13, at 19:47, Matt Joras via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> =
wrote:
>=20
> Reviewer: Matt Joras
> Review result: Ready with Nits
>=20
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
> by the IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
> like any other last call comments.
>=20
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
>=20
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.
>=20
> Document: draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-??
> Reviewer: Matt Joras
> Review Date: 2021-07-13
> IETF LC End Date: 2021-07-02
> IESG Telechat date: 2021-07-15
>=20
> Nits/editorial comments:
>=20
> Consider rewording this sentence in performance considerations:
>=20
> "One possibility for an implementation to mitigate against such a =
possibility
> is to limit the number of requests that is served to a client, or to =
any number
> of clients, in any one time interval, rejecting requests made at a =
higher
> frequency than the implementation can reasonably sustain."
>=20
> It is excessively wordy and uses the word "possibility" twice. I would =
suggest
> breaking this into two separate sentences.
>=20
>=20
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Subject: [netmod] Draft Agenda Posted for IETF 111 - Tuesday, July 27, 2021, Session II (21:30-22:30 UTC, 14:30-15:30 PDT)
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The draft Agenda was posted,

Based on currently extant slot requests it is relatively short. Please
take a look at whether changes are required.

Presenters please remember that Slides would be greatly appreciated not
less than 24 hours prior to Tuesday july 27th 21:30 for inclusion in the
meeting materials.

Thanks

Netmod Chairs.

-------------------------------------------------------
Agenda for the NETMOD 111 WG Session
-------------------------------------------------------
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/agenda-111-netmod

Session:
Â Â  Tuesday, July 27, 2021
Â Â  Session II (21:30-22:30 UTC, 14:30-15:30 PDT)

WG Chairs:
Â Â  Lou BergerÂ Â Â  (lberger at labs dot net)
Â Â  Kent Watsen (kent plus ietf at watsen dot net)
Â Â  Joel JaeggliÂ Â Â  (joelja at bogus dot com)

Available During Session:
Â Â  WG ICS: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/sessions/netmod.ics
Â Â  ICS: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/session/28884.ics
Â Â  MeetEcho: https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/ietf111/?group=netmod
Â Â  Jabber:Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  xmpp:netmod@jabber.ietf.org?join

Available During / After Session:
Â Â  CodiMD:Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-111-netmod
Â Â  Slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/session/netmod
Â Â  Drafts (TGZ):
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/agenda/netmod-drafts.tgz
Â Â  Drafts (PDF):
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/agenda/netmod-drafts.pdf

Available After Session:
Â Â  Recording:Â Â Â Â  http://www.meetecho.com/ietf111/recordings#NETMOD
Â Â  Jabber Logs:Â Â  https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/netmod

Introduction
Â Â  Chairs (10 minutes)
Â Â  Session Intro & WG Status

Chartered items:
Â Â  YANG Versioning Update (30 min)
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning/
Â Â  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-semver/
Â Â  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-ver-selection/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-schema-comparison/
Â Â  Overview - Jason Sterne
Â Â  YANG Module Versioning Draft - Jason Sterne
Â Â  YANG Semver Draft - Joe Clarke

Remaining 20 min.


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Murray Kucherawy has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-10: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

In Section 7:

"... number of requests that is served to a client ..." -- s/is/are/

Also, it strikes me that some of what's in Section 7 is repeated in the last
paragraph of Section 9.  I wonder if they could perhaps be merged, or 9 could
reference 7, or something.




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Hi , Kent:
Apologies for the delay. I missed your reply and never saw it in my inbox(b=
ugs?) :(.
Thanks  for the detailed examples and explanation, and now I have a better =
understanding about your proposal.
Please see my reply inline.

[likewise snip...]

For the second category, imagine <system> containing some predefined object=
s.  These objects follow the standard data-model allowed by the YANG.  Oper=
ators could have defined these objects as well but, because there may be hu=
ndreds of these objects, and the objects are the same for everyone, the ven=
dor decides to pre-define them as a convenience for their customers.  This =
way, operators only have to define custom objects for what is unique in the=
ir environments.    By example, imagine this in <system>:



         system-defined-defaults {

                 applications {

                          application ftp {

                                   protocol tcp;

                                   destination-port 21;

                          }

                          application tftp {

                                   protocol udp;

                                   destination-port 69;

                          }

                          application smtp {

                                   protocol tcp;

                                   destination-port 25;

                          }

                          ...

                  }

         }



And this in <running>



                 # custom objects

                 applications {

                          application my-app-1 {

                                  protocol tcp;

                                   destination-port 2345;

                          }

                          application my-app-2 {

                                   protocol udp;

                                   destination-port 69;

                          }

                  }



                 // an ACL policy referencing both sys-defined and custom o=
bjects

                 policy from-zone untrust to-zone untrust {

                          policy allow-external-access-to-foobar-app {

                                   match {

                                            source-address any;

                                            destination-address any;

                                            application [ ftp tftp, my-app-=
1, my-app-2 ];

                                   }

                                   then {

                                            permit;

                                   }

                          }

                 }



[Qiufang Ma] I can understand that the vendors would like to predefine some=
 common objects for their users' convenience so that the users only have to=
 define their own objects for what is unique in their environments.

What I don't really understand is why these configurations are not applied =
immediately but only after they are referenced?



Note that, <running> by itself would not pass validation, due to missing le=
afrefs.  Thankfully, NMDA never says that validation runs on <running>.  Bu=
t once <running> and <system> have been merged, to become <intended>, the r=
esult does pass validation.

 [Qiufang Ma] The referenced instance must also exist for the data to be va=
lid since the require-instance defaults to true if not present. Is this wha=
t you had in your mind? Yes, NMDA says that it is <intended> which is subje=
ct to validation. But I also notice that In section 5.1.3 of the NMDA:"<run=
ning> MUST always be a valid configuration data tree, as defined  in Sectio=
n 8.1 of [RFC7950]. " So my thought here is that <running> should also conf=
orm to the YANG model constraints and that's to say, a referenced system-de=
fined data item should also exists in <running>.

Therefore, if system configurations do not exist in <running>, they still n=
eed to be  configured in <running> manually in order for being referenced. =
In this case, the original purpose of predefining some system configuration=
s for user convenience is lost. This is the reason why we would like to def=
ine some mechanism here to synchronize <system> into <running>.



> I am wondering if these configuration will present in the <operational> (=
which contains all the configuration actually used by the device) before th=
ey're referenced.



I think that it would depend in the specific server's behavior, regarding i=
f *unused* predefine objects are present in <operational>.  Certainly the u=
nused objects would not have to be present in <operational>.  If I were imp=
lementing the server, the unused objects would NOT be present in <operation=
al>.

[Qiufang Ma] Yes, if the predefined system configurations is unused, then I=
 also tend to agree that they would not be present in <operational> but may=
 also depend on the vendor implementation.







> It would be good if we could determine if there are any other "resource-i=
ndependent" configuration categories here.

> [Qiufang Ma] Do you think there exists conditional system configuration (=
if the preceding configurations you mentioned above is not)? For example, i=
f SSH is enabled on a device, SSH-related keys are automatically generated.=
 Such configurations are generated at the moment when a special functionali=
ty is enabled.



I'm unsure what you mean in general by "conditional configuration", but I c=
an speak to your specific example. Though I must preface my comments that I=
 imagine there are a number of ways servers might go about enabling `sshd`.=
  What follows is my personal view, forged by being around systems for awhi=
le  ;)



In general:



         - `sshd` is NOT enabled by default.

         - `sshd` is enabled via a configuration knob.

         - the SSH host key is dynamically generated the first time `sshd` =
is enabled.

         - the SSH host key itself is in <operational> (not <running>)



This view is consistent with the first paragraph in Section 3 of the "keyst=
ore" draft (reproduced below):



         3.  Support for Built-in Keys



            In some implementations, a server may support built-in keys.  B=
uilt-

            in keys MAY be set during the manufacturing process or be dynam=
ically

            generated the first time the server is booted or a particular s=
ervice

            (e.g., SSH) is enabled.



As a closing thought, this model (which I stated upfront may not be univers=
al) would have no presence-in or interaction-with <system>...though, perhap=
s, there may be some predefined values for what key-algorithms and/or key-l=
engths to use when generating the SSH host key...

[Qiufang Ma] By "conditional system configuration", I was meaning some of t=
he system configurations are not generated immediately after the device is =
powered on. Instead, they are generated when a specific condition is satisf=
ied during the device running(e.g., a functionality is enabled due to some =
client configurations). I am not sure if it really exists, maybe not, just =
try to explore the possibilities of various resource-independent system con=
figurations.:)





Firstly, I again have to preface my comment that there are likely many ways=
 that templating mechanisms can be defined.    But, in general, once a temp=
lating mechanism has been defined, then it stands to reason that templates =
could be defined either in <running> (by operators) or in <system> (by the =
manufacturer).  In one implementation I'm familiar with, the templates are =
objects that are referenced/parameterized by other parts of the configurati=
on.  (Same as with the predefined objects discussion above.)



To answer your questions:



1) Yes, it is my opinion that *activated* templates in <system> will be exp=
anded and present in <intended>.



2) I would never suggest that the system-defined templates are present in <=
running>, though they may be referenced/parameterized by config in <running=
>.



3) if a config-template is configured in <running> (i.e., it is operator-de=
fined) then, yes, the expanded configuration in <intended> is "client confi=
guration" (note, "client configuration" is not a formal term).  That said, =
it seems fair to say that a template defined in <system> and then reference=
d by "client configuration" in <running> is also expanded as "client config=
uration" in <intended>.



4) I don't not understand your last sentence, that the expansion of <system=
> templates are only present in <operational>.  Maybe you're saying somethi=
ng subtle, e.g., that servers currently don't support GET on <intended>.  B=
ut, in theory, the expansion of <system> templates should (IMO) be present =
in <intended>, so that they may be subject to validation.   Of course, all =
the <intended> configuration (whether originating in <running> or <system>)=
 that is successfully "applied" will also be present in <operational>.

[Qiufang Ma] Assume that there is no <system> and this work, the expansion =
of system templates are only present in <operational>. Because this is comp=
atible with system configuration definition in NMDA.

But if system configurations are only present in <operational>, the predefi=
ned system configurations still need to be retrieved and created into <runn=
ing> explicitly when being referenced. I think we've reached an agreement o=
n the need for <system> to exist, and our main point of disagreement is whe=
ther <system> should be copied into <running>. Your point is that being mer=
ged into <intended> is enough to make sure a success validation. But my und=
erstanding is that the referenced system configuration data item must also =
exist in the <running> to obey the model constraints.





<big snip>

> I'm beginning to think that:

> *         auto-copying into <running> is likely never a good idea, becaus=
e it violates the definition of <running>

> [Qiufang Ma] I am quite aware that different datastores in NMDA represent=
s different views of data nodes.  And <running> represents a configuration =
datastore holding the current configuration of the device.

> Should we consider system configuration also be part of current configura=
tion of the device? From my perspective, the difference between system conf=
iguration and  client-configuration lies only in who provides it.



<running> holds the current *operator-specified* configuration of the devic=
e.  System-provided configuration is NOT specified by operators (though sys=
tem-defined objects may be referenced by operator-specified config in <runn=
ing>).   I believe that this arrangement is consistent with the definition =
of <running>.  Agreed?

[Qiufang Ma] Yes. Actually we are not trying to violate the principles of N=
MDA and the definition of <running>.  The issue we try to resolve here is t=
hat system configurations cannot be used(referenced or overwritten) by the =
operators directly and need to be created into <running> explicitly. This a=
ctually loses the meaning of "predefining and bringing convenience". If aut=
o-copying is not a good idea, what do you think about defining an RPC opera=
tion for the operators to do the copy(which is also what Rob suggests at th=
e meeting)?





> *         having in <operational> doesn't make sense, since the tweaks wo=
uldn't go thru <running> --> <intended> validation.

>

> I'm wondering if a model like below would work for everyone - thoughts?

> [Qiufang Ma] <intended> represents the configuration after all configurat=
ion transformations to <running> have been performed, so I think it is only=
 coupled to <running>.

> Anyway, the <system> should also interacts with <operational>.  Agreed?



I don't agree that <intended> must only be coupled to <running>.  Specifica=
lly, I think that it is okay (compatible with NMDA) to define a <system> th=
at also impacts <intended>.   This is the only (IMO) sane approach, as it e=
nables the combination <running> + <system> to be validated.

[Qiufang Ma] Please see above. If <running> is OK to miss referenced system=
 configuration, your proposal makes sense to me.



Best Regards,

Qiufang Ma







>

> Best Regards,

> Qiufang Ma



Cheers,

Kent // contributor


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi , Kent:<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Apologies for the dela=
y. I missed your reply and never saw it in my inbox(bugs?)
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">L</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks &nbsp;for the d=
etailed examples and explanation, and now I have a better understanding abo=
ut your proposal.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Please see my reply in=
line.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[likewise snip&#8230;]=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">For the second category, imagine=
 &lt;system&gt; containing some predefined objects.&nbsp; These objects fol=
low the standard data-model allowed by the YANG.&nbsp; Operators could have=
 defined these objects as well but, because there may be hundreds of these =
objects, and the objects are the same for everyone, the vendor decides to p=
re-define them as a convenience for their customers.&nbsp; This way, operat=
ors only have to define custom objects for what is unique in their environm=
ents.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; By example, imagine this in &lt;system&gt;:<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; system-defined-defaults {<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; applicatio=
ns {<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; application ftp {<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; protocol tcp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; destination-port 21;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; application tftp {<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; protocol udp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; destination-port 69;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; application smtp {<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; protocol tcp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; destination-port 25;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">And this in &lt;running&gt;<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; # custom o=
bjects<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; applicatio=
ns {<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; application my-app-1 {<o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; protocol tcp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; destination-port 2345;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; application my-app-2 {<o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; protocol udp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; destination-port 69;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; // an ACL =
policy referencing both sys-defined and custom objects<o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; policy fro=
m-zone untrust to-zone untrust {<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; policy allow-external-access-to=
-foobar-app {<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; match {<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; source-address any;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; destination-address any;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; application [ ftp tftp, my-app-1, my-app-2 ];<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; then {<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; permit;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">[Qiufang Ma] I can und=
erstand that the vendors would like to predefine some common objects for th=
eir users&#8217; convenience so that the users only have to define their ow=
n objects for what is unique in their environments.<o:p></o:p></span></i></=
b></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">What I don't really un=
derstand is why these configurations are not applied immediately but only a=
fter they are referenced?</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">Note that, &lt;running&gt; by it=
self would not pass validation, due to missing leafrefs.&nbsp; Thankfully, =
NMDA never says that validation runs on &lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; But once &lt=
;running&gt; and &lt;system&gt; have been merged, to become &lt;intended&gt=
;, the result does pass validation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> [Qiufang Ma] The refe=
renced instance must also exist for the data to be valid since the require-=
instance defaults to true if not present. Is this what you had in your mind=
? Yes, NMDA says that it is &lt;intended&gt; which is subject to validation=
. But I also notice that In section 5.1.3 of the NMDA:&#8221;&lt;running&gt=
; MUST always be a valid configuration data tree, as defined&nbsp; in Secti=
on 8.1 of [RFC7950]. &#8221; So my thought here is that &lt;running&gt; sho=
uld also conform to the YANG model constraints and that&#8217;s to say, a r=
eferenced system-defined data item should also exists in &lt;running&gt;.<o=
:p></o:p></span></i></b></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Therefore, if system c=
onfigurations do not exist in &lt;running&gt;, they still need to be &nbsp;=
configured in &lt;running&gt; manually in order for being referenced. In th=
is case, the original purpose of predefining some system configurations for=
 user convenience is lost. This is the reason why we would like to define s=
ome mechanism here to synchronize &lt;system&gt; into &lt;running&gt;. <o:p=
></o:p></span></i></b></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt; I am wondering if these con=
figuration will present in the &lt;operational&gt; (which contains all the =
configuration actually used by the device) before they&#8217;re referenced.=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">I think that it would depend in =
the specific server&#8217;s behavior, regarding if *unused* predefine objec=
ts are present in &lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; Certainly the unused objects w=
ould not have to be present in &lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; If I were impleme=
nting the server, the unused objects would NOT be present in &lt;operationa=
l&gt;.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">[Qiufang Ma] Yes, if t=
he predefined system configurations is unused, then I also tend to agree th=
at they would not be present in &lt;operational&gt; but may also depend on =
the vendor implementation.</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt; It would be good if we coul=
d determine if there are any other &quot;resource-independent&#8221; config=
uration categories here.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt; [Qiufang Ma] Do you think t=
here exists conditional system configuration (if the preceding configuratio=
ns you mentioned above is not)? For example, if SSH is enabled on a device,=
 SSH-related keys are automatically generated. Such configurations are gene=
rated at the moment when a special functionality is enabled.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">I&#8217;m unsure what you mean i=
n general by &quot;conditional configuration&#8221;, but I can speak to you=
r specific example. Though I must preface my comments that I imagine there =
are a number of ways servers might go about enabling `sshd`.&nbsp; What fol=
lows is my personal view, forged by being around systems for awhile&nbsp; ;=
)</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">In general:<o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - `sshd` is NOT enabled by default.<o:p></o:p></span></pre=
>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - `sshd` is enabled via a configuration knob.<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - the SSH host key is dynamically generated the first time=
 `sshd` is enabled.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - the SSH host key itself is in &lt;operational&gt; (not &=
lt;running&gt;)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">This view is consistent with the=
 first paragraph in Section 3 of the &#8220;keystore&#8221; draft (reproduc=
ed below):<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; Support for Built-in Keys<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; In some implementations, a server may support=
 built-in keys.&nbsp; Built-<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; in keys MAY be set during the manufacturing p=
rocess or be dynamically<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; generated the first time the server is booted=
 or a particular service<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (e.g., SSH) is enabled.<o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">As a closing thought, this model=
 (which I stated upfront may not be universal) would have no presence-in or=
 interaction-with &lt;system&gt;&#8230;though, perhaps, there may be some p=
redefined values for what key-algorithms and/or key-lengths to use when gen=
erating the SSH host key...<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">[Qiufang Ma] By &#8220=
;conditional system configuration&#8221;, I was meaning some of the system =
configurations are not generated immediately after the device is powered on=
. Instead, they are generated when a specific condition is satisfied during=
 the device running(e.g., a functionality is enabled due to some client con=
figurations). I am not sure if it really exists, maybe not, just try to exp=
lore the possibilities of various resource-independent system configuration=
s.:) </span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:=
Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">Firstly, I again have to preface=
 my comment that there are likely many ways that templating mechanisms can =
be defined.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But, in general, once a templating mechanism =
has been defined, then it stands to reason that templates could be defined =
either in &lt;running&gt; (by operators) or in &lt;system&gt; (by the manuf=
acturer).&nbsp; In one implementation I&#8217;m familiar with, the template=
s are objects that are referenced/parameterized by other parts of the confi=
guration.&nbsp; (Same as with the predefined objects discussion above.)&nbs=
p; <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">To answer your questions:<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">1) Yes, it is my opinion that *a=
ctivated* templates in &lt;system&gt; will be expanded and present in &lt;i=
ntended&gt;.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">2) I would never suggest that th=
e system-defined templates are present in &lt;running&gt;, though they may =
be referenced/parameterized by config in &lt;running&gt;.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">3) if a config-template is confi=
gured in &lt;running&gt; (i.e., it is operator-defined) then, yes, the expa=
nded configuration in &lt;intended&gt; is &quot;client configuration&#8221;=
 (note, &quot;client configuration&#8221; is not a formal term).&nbsp; That=
 said, it seems fair to say that a template defined in &lt;system&gt; and t=
hen referenced by &quot;client configuration&#8221; in &lt;running&gt; is a=
lso expanded as &quot;client configuration&#8221; in &lt;intended&gt;.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">4) I don&#8217;t not understand =
your last sentence, that the expansion of &lt;system&gt; templates are only=
 present in &lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; Maybe you&#8217;re saying something =
subtle, e.g., that servers currently don&#8217;t support GET on &lt;intende=
d&gt;.&nbsp; But, in theory, the expansion of &lt;system&gt; templates shou=
ld (IMO) be present in &lt;intended&gt;, so that they may be subject to val=
idation.&nbsp;&nbsp; Of course, all the &lt;intended&gt; configuration (whe=
ther originating in &lt;running&gt; or &lt;system&gt;) that is successfully=
 &#8220;applied&#8221; will also be present in &lt;operational&gt;.<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">[Qiufang Ma] Assume th=
at there is no &lt;system&gt; and this work, the expansion of system templa=
tes are only present in &lt;operational&gt;. Because this is compatible wit=
h system configuration definition in NMDA.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">But if system configur=
ations are only present in &lt;operational&gt;, the predefined system confi=
gurations still need to be retrieved and created into &lt;running&gt; expli=
citly when being referenced. I think we&#8217;ve reached an agreement on th=
e need for &lt;system&gt; to exist, and our main point of disagreement is w=
hether &lt;system&gt; should be copied into &lt;running&gt;. Your point is =
that being merged into &lt;intended&gt; is enough to make sure a success va=
lidation. But my understanding is that the referenced system configuration =
data item must also exist in the &lt;running&gt; to obey the model constrai=
nts.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&lt;big snip&gt;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt; I&#8217;m beginning to thin=
k that:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt; &middot;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; auto-copying into &lt;running&gt; is likely n=
ever a good idea, because it violates the definition of &lt;running&gt;<o:p=
></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt; [Qiufang Ma] I am quite awa=
re that different datastores in NMDA represents different views of data nod=
es.&nbsp; And &lt;running&gt; represents a configuration datastore holding =
the current configuration of the device.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt; Should we consider system c=
onfiguration also be part of current configuration of the device? From my p=
erspective, the difference between system configuration and&nbsp; client-co=
nfiguration lies only in who provides it.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&lt;running&gt; holds the curren=
t *operator-specified* configuration of the device.&nbsp; System-provided c=
onfiguration is NOT specified by operators (though system-defined objects m=
ay be referenced by operator-specified config in &lt;running&gt;).&nbsp;&nb=
sp; I believe that this arrangement is consistent with the definition of &l=
t;running&gt;.&nbsp; Agreed?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">[Qiufang Ma] Yes. Actu=
ally we are not trying to violate the principles of NMDA and the definition=
 of &lt;running&gt;. &nbsp;The issue we try to resolve here is that system =
configurations cannot be used(referenced or overwritten) by the operators d=
irectly and need to be created into &lt;running&gt; explicitly. This actual=
ly loses the meaning of &#8220;predefining and bringing convenience&#8221;.=
 If auto-copying is not a good idea, what do you think about defining an RP=
C operation for the operators to do the copy(which is also what Rob suggest=
s at the meeting)?<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt; &middot;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; having in &lt;operational&gt; doesn&#8217;t m=
ake sense, since the tweaks wouldn&#8217;t go thru &lt;running&gt; --&gt; &=
lt;intended&gt; validation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt; I&#8217;m wondering if a mo=
del like below would work for everyone - thoughts?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt; [Qiufang Ma] &lt;intended&g=
t; represents the configuration after all configuration transformations to =
&lt;running&gt; have been performed, so I think it is only coupled to &lt;r=
unning&gt;.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt; Anyway, the &lt;system&gt; =
should also interacts with &lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; Agreed?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">I don&#8217;t agree that &lt;int=
ended&gt; must only be coupled to &lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; Specifically, I th=
ink that it is okay (compatible with NMDA) to define a &lt;system&gt; that =
also impacts &lt;intended&gt;.&nbsp;&nbsp; This is the only (IMO) sane appr=
oach, as it enables the combination &lt;running&gt; &#43; &lt;system&gt; to=
 be validated.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">[Qiufang Ma] Please se=
e above. If &lt;running&gt; is OK to miss referenced system configuration, =
your proposal makes sense to me.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></i></b></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Best Regards,<o:p></o:=
p></span></i></b></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Qiufang Ma </span></i>=
</b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-se=
rif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt; Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">&gt; Qiufang Ma<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529">Kent // contributor<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_2d1262bc90fc49d08eb641365b959ea4huaweicom_--


From nobody Thu Jul 15 11:28:08 2021
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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 11:27:48 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff@ietf.org, NetMod WG Chairs <netmod-chairs@ietf.org>, NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>, Joel Jaeggli <joelja@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Andy,

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 03:42:30PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 2:45 PM Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> 
> > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> > draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: No Objection
> >
> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> > introductory paragraph, however.)
> >
> >
> > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >
> >
> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > COMMENT:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Thanks to Alexey Melnikov for the secdir review.
> >
> > I'm not experienced enough with YANG to know whether or how problematic
> > it is that the "anydata subtree-filter" node contents are described by
> > reference to the NETCONF specification, which has a particular (XML)
> > representation of YANG data and does not give a clear presentation of
> > the abstract YANG structure/semantics to be used.  Is it possible to use
> > the filter-spec choice option when, for example, RESTCONF is used with
> > JSON encoding?
> >
> >
> 
> There is not a standard specification for subtree filtering using JSON
> encoding
> instead of XML. RESTCONF has its own somewhat compatible filtering
> mechanism.
> It would require a new NETCONF work item to officially expand subtree
> filtering
> to support JSON.  (Unofficially, there is RFC for JSON encoding of YANG
> data and an
> implementation could map the RFC 6241 text to JSON).

Okay, this sounds a little familiar now that you mention it.

Should we mention in a comment of some form that this filtering mechanism
is currently only usable with the XML encoding?

> 
> 
> > Section 4
> >
> >    o  report-origin: When set, this parameter indicates that origin
> >       metadata should be included as part of RPC output.  When this
> >       parameter is omitted, origin metadata in comparisons that involve
> >       <operational> is by default omitted.
> >
> > Why is it important to complicate the semantics of this parameter with a
> > dependence on the datastore?  It seems like it would be simpler to get
> > this effect by having clients specify report-origin when the target is
> > not <operational>.  Note that changing the semantics would require text
> > changes in subsequent parts of the document for consistency.  (If
> > retaining the current semantics, please clarify whether "comparisons
> > that involve <operational>" applies when operational is source, target,
> > or either.)
> >
> >
> IMO NMDA is way too complicated, so I cannot argue with that complaint.
> The origin attribute only applies to the <operational> datastore.
> I think it is not allowed to appear elsewhere.

Ah, I see what you are saying now (on second read): the "origin" being
reported is the origin attribute of the data in the datastore being
compared, but only the <operational> datastore will every have that
attribute available.  The text here would be a lot more clear if it
reminded the reader that the origin attribute has such a limited scope,
perhaps:

o report-origin: data in the <operational> datastore has an associated
  "origin" attribute that indicates the origin of the reported value.  When
  set, this parameter indicates that the origin metadata should be included
  as part of the RPC output.  It has no effect when the target datastore is
  anything other than <operational>.  When this parameter is omitted, the
  origin metadata is omitted from the RPC output.

> 
> Section 9
> >
> > In addition to noting that the "compare" RPC is sensitive and should be
> > restricted to authorized parties, I suggest to reiterate that the
> > "compare" operation should not provide a mechanism to work around access
> > control on other nodes -- that is, a result should only be returned if
> > the requestor would be allowed to access both the "source" and "target"
> > trees independently of the RPC.  In particular, even a "no-matches"
> > output should not be returned, as that might provide a way to determine
> > the structure of the datastore even without accessing it.
> >
> 
> Fortunately the access control model (NACM) is per server and not per
> datastore
> so the same access rules apply to all datastores. I agree the no-access
> subtrees
> should be silently skipped, the same way that GET operations are treated in
> NACM.

Ah, okay.  (I think Roman may have mentioned a similar concern about
no-access subtrees, too.)

Thanks,

Ben

> 
> 
> > We might also incorporate by reference the security considerations for
> > subtree filtering (RFC 6241) and xpath filtering (RFC 6991).
> >
> > NITS
> >
> > Section 1
> >
> >    an unusually long time to do so.  This can be the case due to certain
> >    conditions not being met, certain parts of the configuration not
> >    propagating because considered inactive, resource dependencies not
> >    being resolved, or even implementation errors in corner conditions.
> >
> > "because considered inactive" seems like an incomplete clause; maybe
> > "because they are considered inactive"?
> >
> > Section 4
> >
> >    o  differences: This parameter contains the list of differences.
> >       Those differences are encoded per YANG-Patch data model defined in
> >
> > s/YANG-Patch/the YANG-Patch/
> > I'd also consider s/per/according to/, since this is not exactly a
> > logic-driven deduction but rather more of a new requirement.
> >
> > Section 6
> >
> >    for the management of interfaces defined in [RFC8343].  The excerpt
> >    of the data model whose instantiation is the basis of the comparison
> >    is as follows:
> >
> > I feel like this phrasing is a little misleading, as not only is the
> > following snippet only a subset of the nodes contained within "container
> > interfaces" but the descriptions have been greatly abbreviated as well.
> > Perhaps we could say something about "for the purposes of understanding
> > the subsequent example, the following subset of the [RFC8343] data model
> > is provided".
> >
> >    Accept: application/yang-d
> >
> > (I believe this truncated header field was already noted by another
> > reviewer.)
> >
> >
> 
> Andy


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Hi Qiufang,


> Hi , Kent:
> Apologies for the delay. I missed your reply and never saw it in my =
inbox(bugs?) L.
> Thanks  for the detailed examples and explanation, and now I have a =
better understanding about your proposal.
> Please see my reply inline.

No worries about the delay.  I didn=E2=80=99t miss it at all  ;)



> [likewise snip=E2=80=A6]
> For the second category, imagine <system> containing some predefined =
objects.  These objects follow the standard data-model allowed by the =
YANG.  Operators could have defined these objects as well but, because =
there may be hundreds of these objects, and the objects are the same for =
everyone, the vendor decides to pre-define them as a convenience for =
their customers.  This way, operators only have to define custom objects =
for what is unique in their environments.    By example, imagine this in =
<system>:
> =20
>          system-defined-defaults {
>                  applications {
>                           application ftp {
>                                    protocol tcp;
>                                    destination-port 21;
>                           }
>                           application tftp {
>                                    protocol udp;
>                                    destination-port 69;
>                           }
>                           application smtp {
>                                    protocol tcp;
>                                    destination-port 25;
>                           }
>                           ...
>                   }
>          }
> =20
> And this in <running>
> =20
>                  # custom objects
>                  applications {
>                           application my-app-1 {
>                                   protocol tcp;
>                                    destination-port 2345;
>                           }
>                           application my-app-2 {
>                                    protocol udp;
>                                    destination-port 69;
>                           }
>                   }
> =20
>                  // an ACL policy referencing both sys-defined and =
custom objects
>                  policy from-zone untrust to-zone trust {
>                           policy allow-external-access-to-foobar-app {
>                                    match {
>                                             source-address any;
>                                             destination-address any;
>                                             application [ ftp tftp, =
my-app-1, my-app-2 ];
>                                    }
>                                    then {
>                                             permit;
>                                    }
>                           }
>                  }
> =20
> [Qiufang Ma] I can understand that the vendors would like to predefine =
some common objects for their users=E2=80=99 convenience so that the =
users only have to define their own objects for what is unique in their =
environments.
> What I don't really understand is why these configurations are not =
applied immediately but only after they are referenced?


The question is if the server implementation prunes dangling/unused =
objects when <intended> is applied, updating <operational>.  My =
assumption is that the server will discard any object that doesn=E2=80=99t=
 actually impact the running configuration of the system (i.e., values =
are consumed by the underlying operating system, drivers, etc.).  =
Thusly, it is my opinion that only the referenced objects are applied.  =
Hence why, to answer your last question, I wrote that these =
configurations (manufacturer-defined objects) are not applied =
immediately but only after they are referenced.  Makes sense?

Keep in mind that what is described above is just one aspect of what can =
be in <system>.  In addition to defining reference-able objects, =
<system> can also define/apply configuration immediately (e.g., the =
loopback interface).  That is, configuration not does not have to be =
referenced in order to become activated.


> =20
> Note that, <running> by itself would not pass validation, due to =
missing leafrefs.  Thankfully, NMDA never says that validation runs on =
<running>.  But once <running> and <system> have been merged, to become =
<intended>, the result does pass validation.
>  [Qiufang Ma] The referenced instance must also exist for the data to =
be valid since the require-instance defaults to true if not present. Is =
this what you had in your mind? Yes, NMDA says that it is <intended> =
which is subject to validation. But I also notice that In section 5.1.3 =
of the NMDA:=E2=80=9D<running> MUST always be a valid configuration data =
tree, as defined  in Section 8.1 of [RFC7950]. =E2=80=9D So my thought =
here is that <running> should also conform to the YANG model constraints =
and that=E2=80=99s to say, a referenced system-defined data item should =
also exists in <running>.
> Therefore, if system configurations do not exist in <running>, they =
still need to be  configured in <running> manually in order for being =
referenced. In this case, the original purpose of predefining some =
system configurations for user convenience is lost. This is the reason =
why we would like to define some mechanism here to synchronize <system> =
into <running>.=20


I see in RFC 8342 "<running> MUST always be a valid configuration data =
tree, as defined in Section 8.1 of [RFC7950]=E2=80=9D.

But the question remains if it is possible for the system is able to =
validate <running> without, e.g., expanding templates.  There may be a =
'leafref' or =E2=80=98must=E2=80=99 expression somewhere that will fail =
because the evaluation occurs without expanding a template that supplies =
the missing parts.

If this draft =E2=80=9Cupdates=E2=80=9D RFC 8342 (NMDA), then it can =
supply a clarifying statement about what it means that "<running> MUST =
always be a valid configuration data tree=E2=80=9D.  Either that, or an =
Errata if it=E2=80=99s determined that the statement isn=E2=80=99t =
correct.

You make a good technical point, but I think that we should *want* to =
avoid having to copy <system> (or <operational>) configuration into =
<running> if we can avoid it.  Agreed?

FWIW, also in RFC 8342, Section 5.1.4.:

   <intended> is tightly coupled to <running>.  Whenever data is written
   to <running>, the server MUST also immediately update and validate
   <intended>.

   <intended> MAY also be updated independently of <running> if the
   effect of a configuration transformation changes, but <intended> MUST
   always be a valid configuration data tree, as defined in Section=C2=A08=
.1
   of [RFC7950] =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-8.1>.



> =20
> > I am wondering if these configuration will present in the =
<operational> (which contains all the configuration actually used by the =
device) before they=E2=80=99re referenced.
> =20
> I think that it would depend in the specific server=E2=80=99s =
behavior, regarding if *unused* predefine objects are present in =
<operational>.  Certainly the unused objects would not have to be =
present in <operational>.  If I were implementing the server, the unused =
objects would NOT be present in <operational>.
> [Qiufang Ma] Yes, if the predefined system configurations is unused, =
then I also tend to agree that they would not be present in =
<operational> but may also depend on the vendor implementation.


Yup, this is the same conclusion is in my response above.


> > It would be good if we could determine if there are any other =
"resource-independent=E2=80=9D configuration categories here.
> > [Qiufang Ma] Do you think there exists conditional system =
configuration (if the preceding configurations you mentioned above is =
not)? For example, if SSH is enabled on a device, SSH-related keys are =
automatically generated. Such configurations are generated at the moment =
when a special functionality is enabled.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m unsure what you mean in general by "conditional =
configuration=E2=80=9D, but I can speak to your specific example. Though =
I must preface my comments that I imagine there are a number of ways =
servers might go about enabling `sshd`.  What follows is my personal =
view, forged by being around systems for awhile  ;)
> =20
> In general:
> =20
>          - `sshd` is NOT enabled by default.
>          - `sshd` is enabled via a configuration knob.
>          - the SSH host key is dynamically generated the first time =
`sshd` is enabled.
>          - the SSH host key itself is in <operational> (not <running>)
> =20
> This view is consistent with the first paragraph in Section 3 of the =
=E2=80=9Ckeystore=E2=80=9D draft (reproduced below):
> =20
>          3.  Support for Built-in Keys
> =20
>             In some implementations, a server may support built-in =
keys.  Built-
>             in keys MAY be set during the manufacturing process or be =
dynamically
>             generated the first time the server is booted or a =
particular service
>             (e.g., SSH) is enabled.
> =20
> As a closing thought, this model (which I stated upfront may not be =
universal) would have no presence-in or interaction-with =
<system>=E2=80=A6though, perhaps, there may be some predefined values =
for what key-algorithms and/or key-lengths to use when generating the =
SSH host key...
> [Qiufang Ma] By =E2=80=9Cconditional system configuration=E2=80=9D, I =
was meaning some of the system configurations are not generated =
immediately after the device is powered on. Instead, they are generated =
when a specific condition is satisfied during the device running(e.g., a =
functionality is enabled due to some client configurations). I am not =
sure if it really exists, maybe not, just try to explore the =
possibilities of various resource-independent system configurations.:)=20=


To this point I agree..as does RFC 8342 (NMDA), Section 5.3.3.:

   Sometimes, resources are controlled by the device and the
   corresponding system-controlled data appears in (and disappears from)
   <operational> dynamically.  If a system-controlled resource has
   matching configuration in <intended> when it appears, the system will
   try to apply the configuration; this causes the configuration to
   appear in <operational> eventually (if application of the
   configuration was successful).



> =20
> =20
> Firstly, I again have to preface my comment that there are likely many =
ways that templating mechanisms can be defined.    But, in general, once =
a templating mechanism has been defined, then it stands to reason that =
templates could be defined either in <running> (by operators) or in =
<system> (by the manufacturer).  In one implementation I=E2=80=99m =
familiar with, the templates are objects that are =
referenced/parameterized by other parts of the configuration.  (Same as =
with the predefined objects discussion above.) =20
> =20
> To answer your questions:
> =20
> 1) Yes, it is my opinion that *activated* templates in <system> will =
be expanded and present in <intended>.
> =20
> 2) I would never suggest that the system-defined templates are present =
in <running>, though they may be referenced/parameterized by config in =
<running>.
> =20
> 3) if a config-template is configured in <running> (i.e., it is =
operator-defined) then, yes, the expanded configuration in <intended> is =
"client configuration=E2=80=9D (note, "client configuration=E2=80=9D is =
not a formal term).  That said, it seems fair to say that a template =
defined in <system> and then referenced by "client configuration=E2=80=9D =
in <running> is also expanded as "client configuration=E2=80=9D in =
<intended>.
> =20
> 4) I don=E2=80=99t not understand your last sentence, that the =
expansion of <system> templates are only present in <operational>.  =
Maybe you=E2=80=99re saying something subtle, e.g., that servers =
currently don=E2=80=99t support GET on <intended>.  But, in theory, the =
expansion of <system> templates should (IMO) be present in <intended>, =
so that they may be subject to validation.   Of course, all the =
<intended> configuration (whether originating in <running> or <system>) =
that is successfully =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D will also be present in =
<operational>.
> [Qiufang Ma] Assume that there is no <system> and this work, the =
expansion of system templates are only present in <operational>. Because =
this is compatible with system configuration definition in NMDA.
> But if system configurations are only present in <operational>, the =
predefined system configurations still need to be retrieved and created =
into <running> explicitly when being referenced. I think we=E2=80=99ve =
reached an agreement on the need for <system> to exist, and our main =
point of disagreement is whether <system> should be copied into =
<running>. Your point is that being merged into <intended> is enough to =
make sure a success validation. But my understanding is that the =
referenced system configuration data item must also exist in the =
<running> to obey the model constraints.

Yes, I believe that you provided an accurate description of the =
difference in our opinions.  Per my earlier response, you make a valid =
technical point, my goal is to waive that interpretation to the side so =
that a simpler solution can emerge.  It would be good to get other =
opinions on list, otherwise we=E2=80=99ll take it into the meeting.

[BTW, in keeping with this thread moving from the NETCONF to the NETMOD =
mailing lists, would it make sense to move the IETF 111 presentation =
slot from NETCONF to NETMOD too?  I think it does and, further, it would =
help with scheduling (NETCONF is over, NETMOD is under).  Would you be =
okay with this?   AD Rob and the NETCONF chairs discussed this morning, =
and think it's okay, but would still need to confirm with the NETMOD =
chairs.]



>  <big snip>
> > I=E2=80=99m beginning to think that:
> > =C2=B7         auto-copying into <running> is likely never a good =
idea, because it violates the definition of <running>
> > [Qiufang Ma] I am quite aware that different datastores in NMDA =
represents different views of data nodes.  And <running> represents a =
configuration datastore holding the current configuration of the device.
> > Should we consider system configuration also be part of current =
configuration of the device? =46rom my perspective, the difference =
between system configuration and  client-configuration lies only in who =
provides it.
> =20
> <running> holds the current *operator-specified* configuration of the =
device.  System-provided configuration is NOT specified by operators =
(though system-defined objects may be referenced by operator-specified =
config in <running>).   I believe that this arrangement is consistent =
with the definition of <running>.  Agreed?
> [Qiufang Ma] Yes. Actually we are not trying to violate the principles =
of NMDA and the definition of <running>.  The issue we try to resolve =
here is that system configurations cannot be used(referenced or =
overwritten) by the operators directly and need to be created into =
<running> explicitly. This actually loses the meaning of =E2=80=9Cpredefin=
ing and bringing convenience=E2=80=9D. If auto-copying is not a good =
idea, what do you think about defining an RPC operation for the =
operators to do the copy(which is also what Rob suggests at the =
meeting)?

If we have to copy into <running>, then I think that I agree an RPC =
(<edit-config>?) would be better.

You mention =E2=80=9Coverwritten=E2=80=9D by the operators?  Why =
wouldn=E2=80=99t the operators just define their own?  For instance, if =
they don=E2=80=99t like the vendor=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cvendor-foobar=E2=80=9D=
 object, they could copy/paste/edit their own =E2=80=9Cmy-foobar=E2=80=9D =
object with the values needed, yes?


> =20
> =20
> > =C2=B7         having in <operational> doesn=E2=80=99t make sense, =
since the tweaks wouldn=E2=80=99t go thru <running> --> <intended> =
validation.
> > =20
> > I=E2=80=99m wondering if a model like below would work for everyone =
- thoughts?
> > [Qiufang Ma] <intended> represents the configuration after all =
configuration transformations to <running> have been performed, so I =
think it is only coupled to <running>.
> > Anyway, the <system> should also interacts with <operational>.  =
Agreed?
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t agree that <intended> must only be coupled to =
<running>.  Specifically, I think that it is okay (compatible with NMDA) =
to define a <system> that also impacts <intended>.   This is the only =
(IMO) sane approach, as it enables the combination <running> + <system> =
to be validated.
> [Qiufang Ma] Please see above. If <running> is OK to miss referenced =
system configuration, your proposal makes sense to me.

Ack.


>  Best Regards,
> Qiufang Ma=20


Kent // contributor=

--Apple-Mail=_AAD4ECF4-AE7A-4D73-B3BC-473488829AF9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi&nbsp;Qiufang,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><meta charset=3D"UTF-8" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D"">Hi , Kent:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Apologies =
for the delay. I missed your reply and never saw it in my =
inbox(bugs?)<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">L</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Thanks =
&nbsp;for the detailed examples and explanation, and now I have a better =
understanding about your proposal.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D"">Please see my reply =
inline.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"">No worries about the delay. &nbsp;I didn=E2=80=99=
t miss it at all &nbsp;;)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">[likewise =
snip=E2=80=A6]</span></div><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; =
color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">For the second category, imagine =
&lt;system&gt; containing some predefined objects.&nbsp; These objects =
follow the standard data-model allowed by the YANG.&nbsp; Operators =
could have defined these objects as well but, because there may be =
hundreds of these objects, and the objects are the same for everyone, =
the vendor decides to pre-define them as a convenience for their =
customers.&nbsp; This way, operators only have to define custom objects =
for what is unique in their environments.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; By example, =
imagine this in &lt;system&gt;:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
system-defined-defaults {<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; applications {<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; application ftp {<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
protocol tcp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
destination-port 21;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; application tftp {<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
protocol udp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
destination-port 69;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; application smtp {<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
protocol tcp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
destination-port 25;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">And this in =
&lt;running&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; # custom objects<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; applications {<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; application my-app-1 {<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; protocol tcp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
destination-port 2345;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; application my-app-2 {<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
protocol udp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
destination-port 69;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; // an ACL policy referencing both =
sys-defined and custom objects<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; policy from-zone untrust to-zone trust =
{<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; policy allow-external-access-to-foobar-app {<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
match {<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; source-address any;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; destination-address =
any;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; application [ ftp tftp, =
my-app-1, my-app-2 ];<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; then =
{<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; permit;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] I =
can understand that the vendors would like to predefine some common =
objects for their users=E2=80=99 convenience so that the users only have =
to define their own objects for what is unique in their =
environments.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">What I don't =
really understand is why these configurations are not applied =
immediately but only after they are =
referenced?</span></i></b></pre></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The question is if the =
server implementation prunes dangling/unused objects when =
&lt;intended&gt; is applied, updating &lt;operational&gt;. &nbsp;My =
assumption is that the server will discard any object that doesn=E2=80=99t=
 actually impact the running configuration of the system (i.e., values =
are consumed by the underlying operating system, drivers, etc.). =
&nbsp;Thusly, it is my opinion that only the referenced objects are =
applied. &nbsp;Hence why, to answer your last question, I wrote that =
these configurations (manufacturer-defined objects) are not applied =
immediately but only after they are referenced. &nbsp;Makes =
sense?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Keep in mind that what is =
described above is just one aspect of what can be in &lt;system&gt;. =
&nbsp;In addition to defining reference-able objects, &lt;system&gt; can =
also define/apply configuration immediately (e.g., the loopback =
interface). &nbsp;That is, configuration not does not have to be =
referenced in order to become activated.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">Note that, =
&lt;running&gt; by itself would not pass validation, due to missing =
leafrefs.&nbsp; Thankfully, NMDA never says that validation runs on =
&lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; But once &lt;running&gt; and &lt;system&gt; have =
been merged, to become &lt;intended&gt;, the result does pass =
validation.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""> [Qiufang Ma] The referenced instance must =
also exist for the data to be valid since the require-instance defaults =
to true if not present. Is this what you had in your mind? Yes, NMDA =
says that it is &lt;intended&gt; which is subject to validation. But I =
also notice that In section 5.1.3 of the NMDA:=E2=80=9D&lt;running&gt; =
MUST always be a valid configuration data tree, as defined&nbsp; in =
Section 8.1 of [RFC7950]. =E2=80=9D So my thought here is that =
&lt;running&gt; should also conform to the YANG model constraints and =
that=E2=80=99s to say, a referenced system-defined data item should also =
exists in &lt;running&gt;.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Therefore, if =
system configurations do not exist in &lt;running&gt;, they still need =
to be &nbsp;configured in &lt;running&gt; manually in order for being =
referenced. In this case, the original purpose of predefining some =
system configurations for user convenience is lost. This is the reason =
why we would like to define some mechanism here to synchronize =
&lt;system&gt; into &lt;running&gt;. =
</span></i></b></pre></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I see in RFC 8342 =
"&lt;running&gt; MUST always be a valid configuration data tree, as =
defined in Section 8.1 of [RFC7950]=E2=80=9D.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>But the question remains if it is possible for the =
system is able to validate &lt;running&gt; without, e.g., expanding =
templates. &nbsp;There may be a 'leafref' or =E2=80=98must=E2=80=99 =
expression somewhere that will fail because the evaluation occurs =
without expanding a template that supplies the missing =
parts.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>If this draft =E2=80=9Cupdates=E2=
=80=9D RFC 8342 (NMDA), then it can supply a clarifying statement about =
what it means that <font color=3D"#000000" class=3D"">"&lt;running&gt; =
MUST always be a valid configuration data tree=E2=80=9D. &nbsp;Either =
that, or an Errata if it=E2=80=99s determined that the statement isn=E2=80=
=99t correct.</font></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>You make a good =
technical point, but I think that we should *want* to avoid having to =
copy &lt;system&gt; (or &lt;operational&gt;) configuration into =
&lt;running&gt; if we can avoid it. &nbsp;Agreed?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>FWIW, also in RFC 8342, Section =
5.1.4.:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
orphans: 2; widows: 2;">   &lt;intended&gt; is tightly coupled to =
&lt;running&gt;.  Whenever data is written
   to &lt;running&gt;, the server MUST also immediately update and =
validate
   &lt;intended&gt;.

   &lt;intended&gt; MAY also be updated independently of &lt;running&gt; =
if the
   effect of a configuration transformation changes, but =
&lt;intended&gt; MUST
   always be a valid configuration data tree, as defined in <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-8.1" =
class=3D"">Section&nbsp;8.1
   of [RFC7950]</a>.
</pre><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">&gt; I am =
wondering if these configuration will present in the &lt;operational&gt; =
(which contains all the configuration actually used by the device) =
before they=E2=80=99re referenced.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">I think =
that it would depend in the specific server=E2=80=99s behavior, =
regarding if *unused* predefine objects are present in =
&lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; Certainly the unused objects would not have =
to be present in &lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; If I were implementing the =
server, the unused objects would NOT be present in =
&lt;operational&gt;.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] =
Yes, if the predefined system configurations is unused, then I also tend =
to agree that they would not be present in &lt;operational&gt; but may =
also depend on the vendor =
implementation.</span></i></b></pre></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Yup, this is the same =
conclusion is in my response above.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">&gt; It would =
be good if we could determine if there are any other =
"resource-independent=E2=80=9D configuration categories here.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">&gt; [Qiufang =
Ma] Do you think there exists conditional system configuration (if the =
preceding configurations you mentioned above is not)? For example, if =
SSH is enabled on a device, SSH-related keys are automatically =
generated. Such configurations are generated at the moment when a =
special functionality is enabled.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99=
m unsure what you mean in general by "conditional configuration=E2=80=9D, =
but I can speak to your specific example. Though I must preface my =
comments that I imagine there are a number of ways servers might go =
about enabling `sshd`.&nbsp; What follows is my personal view, forged by =
being around systems for awhile&nbsp; ;)</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">In =
general:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - `sshd` is =
NOT enabled by default.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - `sshd` is =
enabled via a configuration knob.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - the SSH =
host key is dynamically generated the first time `sshd` is enabled.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - the SSH =
host key itself is in &lt;operational&gt; (not &lt;running&gt;)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">This view is =
consistent with the first paragraph in Section 3 of the =E2=80=9Ckeystore=E2=
=80=9D draft (reproduced below):<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; =
Support for Built-in Keys<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; =
In some implementations, a server may support built-in keys.&nbsp; =
Built-<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; =
in keys MAY be set during the manufacturing process or be =
dynamically<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; =
generated the first time the server is booted or a particular =
service<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; =
(e.g., SSH) is enabled.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">As a =
closing thought, this model (which I stated upfront may not be =
universal) would have no presence-in or interaction-with =
&lt;system&gt;=E2=80=A6though, perhaps, there may be some predefined =
values for what key-algorithms and/or key-lengths to use when generating =
the SSH host key...<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] =
By =E2=80=9Cconditional system configuration=E2=80=9D, I was meaning =
some of the system configurations are not generated immediately after =
the device is powered on. Instead, they are generated when a specific =
condition is satisfied during the device running(e.g., a functionality =
is enabled due to some client configurations). I am not sure if it =
really exists, maybe not, just try to explore the possibilities of =
various resource-independent system configurations.:) =
</span></i></b></pre></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>To =
this point I agree..as does RFC 8342 (NMDA), Section =
5.3.3.:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
orphans: 2; widows: 2;">   Sometimes, resources are controlled by the =
device and the
   corresponding system-controlled data appears in (and disappears from)
   &lt;operational&gt; dynamically.  If a system-controlled resource has
   matching configuration in &lt;intended&gt; when it appears, the =
system will
   try to apply the configuration; this causes the configuration to
   appear in &lt;operational&gt; eventually (if application of the
   configuration was successful).
</pre><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">Firstly, I =
again have to preface my comment that there are likely many ways that =
templating mechanisms can be defined.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But, in general, =
once a templating mechanism has been defined, then it stands to reason =
that templates could be defined either in &lt;running&gt; (by operators) =
or in &lt;system&gt; (by the manufacturer).&nbsp; In one implementation =
I=E2=80=99m familiar with, the templates are objects that are =
referenced/parameterized by other parts of the configuration.&nbsp; =
(Same as with the predefined objects discussion above.)&nbsp; <o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">To answer =
your questions:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">1) Yes, it is =
my opinion that *activated* templates in &lt;system&gt; will be expanded =
and present in &lt;intended&gt;.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">2) I =
would never suggest that the system-defined templates are present in =
&lt;running&gt;, though they may be referenced/parameterized by config =
in &lt;running&gt;.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">3) if a =
config-template is configured in &lt;running&gt; (i.e., it is =
operator-defined) then, yes, the expanded configuration in =
&lt;intended&gt; is "client configuration=E2=80=9D (note, "client =
configuration=E2=80=9D is not a formal term).&nbsp; That said, it seems =
fair to say that a template defined in &lt;system&gt; and then =
referenced by "client configuration=E2=80=9D in &lt;running&gt; is also =
expanded as "client configuration=E2=80=9D in &lt;intended&gt;.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">4) I don=E2=80=99=
t not understand your last sentence, that the expansion of =
&lt;system&gt; templates are only present in &lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; =
Maybe you=E2=80=99re saying something subtle, e.g., that servers =
currently don=E2=80=99t support GET on &lt;intended&gt;.&nbsp; But, in =
theory, the expansion of &lt;system&gt; templates should (IMO) be =
present in &lt;intended&gt;, so that they may be subject to =
validation.&nbsp;&nbsp; Of course, all the &lt;intended&gt; =
configuration (whether originating in &lt;running&gt; or &lt;system&gt;) =
that is successfully =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D will also be present in =
&lt;operational&gt;.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] =
Assume that there is no &lt;system&gt; and this work, the expansion of =
system templates are only present in &lt;operational&gt;. Because this =
is compatible with system configuration definition in NMDA.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But if system configurations are only =
present in &lt;operational&gt;, the predefined system configurations =
still need to be retrieved and created into &lt;running&gt; explicitly =
when being referenced. I think we=E2=80=99ve reached an agreement on the =
need for &lt;system&gt; to exist, and our main point of disagreement is =
whether &lt;system&gt; should be copied into &lt;running&gt;. Your point =
is that being merged into &lt;intended&gt; is enough to make sure a =
success validation. But my understanding is that the referenced system =
configuration data item must also exist in the &lt;running&gt; to obey =
the model constraints.</span></i></b></pre></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Yes, I believe that you provided an accurate =
description of the difference in our opinions. &nbsp;Per my earlier =
response, you make a valid technical point, my goal is to waive that =
interpretation to the side so that a simpler solution can emerge. =
&nbsp;It would be good to get other opinions on list, otherwise we=E2=80=99=
ll take it into the meeting.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>[BTW, =
in keeping with this thread moving from the NETCONF to the NETMOD =
mailing lists, would it make sense to move the IETF 111 presentation =
slot from NETCONF to NETMOD too? &nbsp;I think it does and, further, it =
would help with scheduling (NETCONF is over, NETMOD is under). =
&nbsp;Would you be okay with this? &nbsp; AD Rob and the NETCONF chairs =
discussed this morning, and think it's okay, but would still need to =
confirm with the NETMOD chairs.]</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 37, 41); font-family: Consolas; font-size: 9pt;" =
class=3D"">&lt;big snip&gt;</span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">&gt; I=E2=80=99=
m beginning to think that:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D"">&gt; =C2=B7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
auto-copying into &lt;running&gt; is likely never a good idea, because =
it violates the definition of &lt;running&gt;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">&gt; [Qiufang =
Ma] I am quite aware that different datastores in NMDA represents =
different views of data nodes.&nbsp; And &lt;running&gt; represents a =
configuration datastore holding the current configuration of the =
device.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">&gt; Should =
we consider system configuration also be part of current configuration =
of the device? =46rom my perspective, the difference between system =
configuration and&nbsp; client-configuration lies only in who provides =
it.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">&lt;running&gt;=
 holds the current *operator-specified* configuration of the =
device.&nbsp; System-provided configuration is NOT specified by =
operators (though system-defined objects may be referenced by =
operator-specified config in &lt;running&gt;).&nbsp;&nbsp; I believe =
that this arrangement is consistent with the definition of =
&lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; Agreed?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] =
Yes. Actually we are not trying to violate the principles of NMDA and =
the definition of &lt;running&gt;. &nbsp;The issue we try to resolve =
here is that system configurations cannot be used(referenced or =
overwritten) by the operators directly and need to be created into =
&lt;running&gt; explicitly. This actually loses the meaning of =
=E2=80=9Cpredefining and bringing convenience=E2=80=9D. If auto-copying =
is not a good idea, what do you think about defining an RPC operation =
for the operators to do the copy(which is also what Rob suggests at the =
meeting)?</span></i></b></pre></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>If we have to copy into &lt;running&gt;, then I =
think that I agree an RPC (&lt;edit-config&gt;?) would be =
better.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>You mention =
=E2=80=9Coverwritten=E2=80=9D by the operators? &nbsp;Why wouldn=E2=80=99t=
 the operators just define their own? &nbsp;For instance, if they =
don=E2=80=99t like the vendor=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cvendor-foobar=E2=80=9D =
object, they could copy/paste/edit their own =E2=80=9Cmy-foobar=E2=80=9D =
object with the values needed, yes?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">&gt; =
=C2=B7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; having in =
&lt;operational&gt; doesn=E2=80=99t make sense, since the tweaks =
wouldn=E2=80=99t go thru &lt;running&gt; --&gt; &lt;intended&gt; =
validation.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">&gt;&nbsp;=
 <o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">&gt; I=E2=80=99=
m wondering if a model like below would work for everyone - =
thoughts?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">&gt; =
[Qiufang Ma] &lt;intended&gt; represents the configuration after all =
configuration transformations to &lt;running&gt; have been performed, so =
I think it is only coupled to &lt;running&gt;.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">&gt; Anyway, =
the &lt;system&gt; should also interacts with &lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; =
Agreed?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41);" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t=
 agree that &lt;intended&gt; must only be coupled to =
&lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; Specifically, I think that it is okay (compatible =
with NMDA) to define a &lt;system&gt; that also impacts =
&lt;intended&gt;.&nbsp;&nbsp; This is the only (IMO) sane approach, as =
it enables the combination &lt;running&gt; + &lt;system&gt; to be =
validated.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] Please see above. If =
&lt;running&gt; is OK to miss referenced system configuration, your =
proposal makes sense to =
me.</span></i></b></pre></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Ack.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b><b class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt;"><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Best =
Regards,</span></i></b></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Qiufang Ma </span></i></b></pre></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Kent // =
contributor</div></body></html>=

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From: "maqiufang (A)" <maqiufang1@huawei.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Thread-Topic: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism
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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" <netmod-chairs@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/a0UlSTxx4a-GFJtJ33oG5880siI>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Ben, Chris,

I wanted to check whether this discussion has progressed at all.  This is t=
he only remaining discuss after Roman has cleared his based on the IESG tel=
echat discussion yesterday (thanks Roman).

Regards,
Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Christian Hopps
> Sent: 26 May 2021 23:05
> To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
> Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; netmod@ietf.org;
> draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-geo-
> location-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>=20
>=20
> Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> writes:
>=20
> > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> > draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: Discuss
> >
> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> > introductory paragraph, however.)
> >
> >
> > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.ht=
ml
> > for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >
> >
> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location/
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > DISCUSS:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I think we lack sufficient precision (forgive the pun) in how we talk
> > about "accuracy" and "precision".  Are the leafs that claim to specify
> > "accuracy" specifying a precision?  If so, the precision of a specific
> > measurement, the precision of the measurements that led to the creation
> > of the coordinate frame, or something else?  Are they doing so in
> > relative terms (e.g., percentage) or absolute terms (e.g., degrees and
> > meters)?  (There are "units" directives only for "height-accuracy" and
> > not the others.)  How can we we say that we'll have 16 fraction-digits =
of
> > precision for lat/long when the maximum accuracy we can say that a
> > geodetic-system has only gives us 6 fraction-digits for coord-accuracy?
> > When we say that the "precision of this measurement is indicated by the
> > reference-frame" is that the same thing as the relevant "-accuracy"
> > nodes, or something else?
>=20
> Yes, the geodesic-datum is what defines the values and their accuracy. Fo=
r
> the precision in the value we choose the fractional digits based on what
> might be needed, but not to prescribe anything. For decimal degrees e.g.,=
 we
> only need 100s values the rest can be left to the fractional portion.
>=20
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > COMMENT:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > (I support Roman's Discuss.)
> >
> > Why do we only define velocity in terms of north/east/up, when we could
> > be in x/y/z coordinates where there is no clear "north" or "east"?
> >
> > It would have been helpful for the shepherd review to point to the
> > thread at
> >
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/dA9olZfEVa3clGdfvNYEFXUE
> MJw/
> > that attempted to discuss the feedback from the yangdoctor review -- th=
e
> > mail with the review itself got no direct replies.
>=20
> This is a very edge case of this grouping meant really to handle somethin=
g
> like continental drift with long stored values. One can keep drilling dow=
n on
> this particular velocity value seemingly forever, but then we aren't gett=
ing
> our work done. I think it's enough to say that if the usable values don't=
 work
> for a use case at this point, then they don't work.
>=20
> > Section 2.1
> >
> >    In addition to the "geodetic-datum" value, we allow refining the
> >    coordinate and height accuracy using "coord-accuracy" and "height-
> >
> > My understanding is that "refine" is a YANG keyword, and the current
> > module/tree structure does not seem consistent with this description
> > referring to use of the YANG keyword (since we can just set new values
> > directly without needing to "refine" the YANG structure itself).  A
> > different word here might be appropriate.
>=20
> Ok changed to "overriding".
>=20
>=20
> >    Finally, we define an optional feature which allows for changing the
> >    system for which the above values are defined.  This optional featur=
e
> >    adds an "alternate-system" value to the reference frame.  This value
> >    is normally not present which implies the natural universe is the
> >    system.  The use of this value is intended to allow for creating
> >    virtual realities or perhaps alternate coordinate systems.  The
> >    definition of alternate systems is outside the scope of this
> >    document.
> >
> > This paragraph doesn't really convince me that we need to include the
> > "alternate-system" capability in the proposed-standard version of this
> > YANG module at this time.
>=20
> It doesn't hurt anything to include it and it was asked for by the person=
 who
> came up with the shape of this grouping (Peter L.). Unless there's a stro=
ng
> objection I'd prefer to leave it in deference to the person who asked for=
 it.
>=20
> > Section 2.3
> >
> >    meters per second.  The values "v-north" and "v-east" are relative t=
o
> >    true north as defined by the reference frame for the astronomical
> >    body, "v-up" is perpendicular to the plane defined by "v-north" and
> >    "v-east", and is pointed away from the center of mass.
> >
> > When I read this I wondered if the "plane defined by v-north and v-east=
"
> > was taken at the initial snapshot position, or continuously updated wit=
h
> > the effect of v-north and v-east drift.  Given the stated application,
> > it's unlikely that it actually would matter, though, so it's not clear
> > that we should change the text to cover it.
> >
> > Section 3
> >
> >                   and 91..126). The IANA registry further restricts the
> >                   value by converting all spaces (' ') to dashes ('-')"=
;
> >
> > Is there a reason why we shouldn't disallow spaces via the regex (and
> > obviate the need for special processing at IANA)?
>=20
> The thinking is to allow users to do more than what we IANA is limited to=
.
>=20
> > Section 5.1.2
> >
> > The following subsection suggests that there is a "heading" field in th=
e
> > W3C structure/API, but I don't see one listed in Figure 1.
> >
> > Section 6.1
> >
> > What are suitable references for the "me" and "mola-vik-1" geoedtic
> > systems?  I do not see how just the listed descriptions provide a "clea=
r
> > definition" even for the two coordinate values latitude/longitude.
> >
> > Section 7
> >
> > Thanks for using the template for security considerations for YANG
> > models!  I think that since some of the portions of the template do not
> > apply, they can safely be removed.  In particular, the "these are the
> > subtrees and data nodes and their sensitivity/vulnerability" lines can
> > go, and the clause about "can have a negative effect on network
> > operations" may be worth tweaking (network operations may not be the
> > most likely thing to be impacted).  I think it's also okay to drop the
> > paragraph/sentence about RPCs.
> >
> > Section 8
> >
> > The [WGS84] and [EGM08] links don't work for me.  ([EGM96] does.)
>=20
> I've removed the links as they are not stable. Just going with standard t=
itle,
> author pub date now.
>=20
> > Section 9
> >
> > It seems like RFC 7950 is more properly classified as normative, since
> > you can't really make sense of YANG without ... knowing YANG.  I think
> > 8340 is sometimes listed as normative as well, but the case is not quit=
e
> > as clear, here.
> >
> > NITS
> >
> > Abstract
> >
> >    This document defines a generic geographical location object YANG
> >    grouping.  [...]
> >
> > I'm having a hard time seeing what role the word "object" is playing
> > here, especially since in the next sentence we just refer to the
> > "geographical location grouping".
>=20
> Removed "object"
>=20
> > Section 3
> >
> >          description
> >            "A location on an astronomical body (e.g., 'earth')
> >             somewhere in a universe.";
> >
> > I guess in some alternate-systems the "astronomical body" bit may not
> > really be accurate.  (And possibly in some cartesian coordinate frames,
> > too, but that's less clear.)
> >
> >              type string {
> >                pattern '[ -@\[-\^_-~]*';
> >
> > If I'm reading my table correctly, '^' and '_' are adjacent, so this
> > rather-reader-unfriendly regex formulation can't even be justified as
> > the minimal encoding.
>=20
> This has to do with working with limitations in the tools. The minimal
> encoding does not work unfortunately.
>=20
> >                 '67p/churyumov-gerasimenko (a comet). The value should
> >                 be comprised of all lower case ASCII characters not
> >                 including control characters (i.e., values 32..64, and
> >                 91..126).  [...]
> >
> > "all lower case ASCII characters" inherently excludes control
> > characters, so "all lower case ASCII characters not including control
> > characters" is redundant.
> > Also, that doesn't match up the listed range of values (or the regex).
> > (Also^2, that doesn't match the given comet name, which has numbers and
> > punctuation.)
>=20
> Changed to:
>=20
> "The ASCII value SHOULD have upper case converted to lower case
> characters and not include control characters (i.e., values 32..64, and
> 91..126). Any preceding 'the' in the name SHOULD NOT be included.";
>=20
> >                   for Cartesian coordinates. When coord-accuracy is
> >                   specified, it overrides the geodetic-datum implied
> >                   accuracy.";
> >                   [...]
> >                  "The accuracy of height value for ellipsoidal
> >                   coordinates, this value is not used with Cartesian
> >                   coordinates. When specified, it overrides the
> >                   geodetic-datum implied default.";
> >
> > I suggest using parallel language for "when specified, overrides implie=
d
> > default".  (That is, "coord-accuracy" is currently explicitly named but
> > "height-accuracy" is not.)
>=20
> Done.
>=20
> >
> >            leaf v-up {
> >              type decimal64 {
> >                fraction-digits 12;
> >              }
> >              units "meters per second";
> >              description
> >                "v-up is the rate of change (i.e., speed) away from the
> >                 center of mass.";
> >
> > "center of mass" may not be universally applicable, e.g., to cartesian
> > coordinates, binary systems, extremely massive objects that are not the
> > astronomical-body of the reference-frame.
>=20
> In this case the value is not relevant. Again, this isn't a big part of t=
his
> specification, it's meant to track things like continental drift. If it's=
 not useful
> as defined then it's simply not useful for that use.
>=20
> > Section 4
> >
> > We probably should expand CRS at/before first usage.
>=20
> Done, just under the table.
>=20
> > Section 6.1
> >
> >    Each entry should be sufficient to define the 3 coordinate values (2
> >    if height is not required).  So for example the "wgs-84" is defined
> >
> > I'd suggest flipping the order, for "should be sufficient to define the
> > 2 coordinate values, and to define height if height is required".
>=20
> Done.


From nobody Sat Jul 17 10:33:47 2021
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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 10:33:21 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location@ietf.org, netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, kent+ietf@watsen.net
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Christian,

Sorry for the very delayed reply (and thanks to Rob for the nudge).

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 06:04:58PM -0400, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> writes:
> 
> > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> > draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: Discuss
> >
> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> > introductory paragraph, however.)
> >
> >
> > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >
> >
> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location/
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > DISCUSS:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I think we lack sufficient precision (forgive the pun) in how we talk
> > about "accuracy" and "precision".  Are the leafs that claim to specify
> > "accuracy" specifying a precision?  If so, the precision of a specific
> > measurement, the precision of the measurements that led to the creation
> > of the coordinate frame, or something else?  Are they doing so in
> > relative terms (e.g., percentage) or absolute terms (e.g., degrees and
> > meters)?  (There are "units" directives only for "height-accuracy" and
> > not the others.)  How can we we say that we'll have 16 fraction-digits of
> > precision for lat/long when the maximum accuracy we can say that a
> > geodetic-system has only gives us 6 fraction-digits for coord-accuracy?
> > When we say that the "precision of this measurement is indicated by the
> > reference-frame" is that the same thing as the relevant "-accuracy"
> > nodes, or something else?
> 
> Yes, the geodesic-datum is what defines the values and their accuracy. For the precision in the value we choose the fractional digits based on what might be needed, but not to prescribe anything. For decimal degrees e.g., we only need 100s values the rest can be left to the fractional portion.

Unfortunately, even your description here still doesn't help me understand
what the intended semantics of these values are.

To help illustrate my confusion, here are a few possible things that could
be what is intended to be conveyed:

- the geodetic-datum description of the object has been measured to be
  within a known delta of the actual object being described, at all points
  on the object that the coordinate system can describe

- the geodetic-datum description of the object is capable of determining
  relative differences between points on the object to within a particular
  delta of precision, but those individual coordinate values may be farther
  than that delta from the actual point on the object that was referred to

- the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect measurements
  that were made and are known to be within some delta of the coordinate
  system's value that they are reported as

- the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect measurements
  thare are known to be distinguishable from other measurements to within
  some delta of other measurements relative to that coordinate system, even
  though the actual position being indicated may diverge from the reported
  value by more than that delta

- the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect measurements
  that were made and are known to be within some delta of the actual point
  on the object that the coordinates refer to

- the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect measurements
  that were and are known to be distinguishable from other measurements of
  points on that object within some delta, but the actual distance from the
  measured point to the point on the object indicated by the reported
  coordinates may be larger than that delta

In short, there are at least three classes of things at play here: the
actual object itself, the coordinate system used to model the object, and
values reported in the YANG module (which are assumed to ultimately derive
from some form of measurement).  To talk about accuracy or precision
implies a relationship between elements of two of those classes, and I
don't even know which of those classes you're trying to talk about.

> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > COMMENT:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > (I support Roman's Discuss.)
> >
> > Why do we only define velocity in terms of north/east/up, when we could
> > be in x/y/z coordinates where there is no clear "north" or "east"?
> >
> > It would have been helpful for the shepherd review to point to the
> > thread at
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/dA9olZfEVa3clGdfvNYEFXUEMJw/
> > that attempted to discuss the feedback from the yangdoctor review -- the
> > mail with the review itself got no direct replies.
> 
> This is a very edge case of this grouping meant really to handle something like continental drift with long stored values. One can keep drilling down on this particular velocity value seemingly forever, but then we aren't getting our work done. I think it's enough to say that if the usable values don't work for a use case at this point, then they don't work.

Sure, that's most of why this is in the non-blocking COMMENT section.


The rest of this (including the follow-up) all looks fine; thanks for the
replies and updates!

-Ben

> > Section 2.1
> >
> >    In addition to the "geodetic-datum" value, we allow refining the
> >    coordinate and height accuracy using "coord-accuracy" and "height-
> >
> > My understanding is that "refine" is a YANG keyword, and the current
> > module/tree structure does not seem consistent with this description
> > referring to use of the YANG keyword (since we can just set new values
> > directly without needing to "refine" the YANG structure itself).  A
> > different word here might be appropriate.
> 
> Ok changed to "overriding".
> 
> 
> >    Finally, we define an optional feature which allows for changing the
> >    system for which the above values are defined.  This optional feature
> >    adds an "alternate-system" value to the reference frame.  This value
> >    is normally not present which implies the natural universe is the
> >    system.  The use of this value is intended to allow for creating
> >    virtual realities or perhaps alternate coordinate systems.  The
> >    definition of alternate systems is outside the scope of this
> >    document.
> >
> > This paragraph doesn't really convince me that we need to include the
> > "alternate-system" capability in the proposed-standard version of this
> > YANG module at this time.
> 
> It doesn't hurt anything to include it and it was asked for by the person who came up with the shape of this grouping (Peter L.). Unless there's a strong objection I'd prefer to leave it in deference to the person who asked for it.
> 
> > Section 2.3
> >
> >    meters per second.  The values "v-north" and "v-east" are relative to
> >    true north as defined by the reference frame for the astronomical
> >    body, "v-up" is perpendicular to the plane defined by "v-north" and
> >    "v-east", and is pointed away from the center of mass.
> >
> > When I read this I wondered if the "plane defined by v-north and v-east"
> > was taken at the initial snapshot position, or continuously updated with
> > the effect of v-north and v-east drift.  Given the stated application,
> > it's unlikely that it actually would matter, though, so it's not clear
> > that we should change the text to cover it.
> >
> > Section 3
> >
> >                   and 91..126). The IANA registry further restricts the
> >                   value by converting all spaces (' ') to dashes ('-')";
> >
> > Is there a reason why we shouldn't disallow spaces via the regex (and
> > obviate the need for special processing at IANA)?
> 
> The thinking is to allow users to do more than what we IANA is limited to.
> 
> > Section 5.1.2
> >
> > The following subsection suggests that there is a "heading" field in the
> > W3C structure/API, but I don't see one listed in Figure 1.
> >
> > Section 6.1
> >
> > What are suitable references for the "me" and "mola-vik-1" geoedtic
> > systems?  I do not see how just the listed descriptions provide a "clear
> > definition" even for the two coordinate values latitude/longitude.
> >
> > Section 7
> >
> > Thanks for using the template for security considerations for YANG
> > models!  I think that since some of the portions of the template do not
> > apply, they can safely be removed.  In particular, the "these are the
> > subtrees and data nodes and their sensitivity/vulnerability" lines can
> > go, and the clause about "can have a negative effect on network
> > operations" may be worth tweaking (network operations may not be the
> > most likely thing to be impacted).  I think it's also okay to drop the
> > paragraph/sentence about RPCs.
> >
> > Section 8
> >
> > The [WGS84] and [EGM08] links don't work for me.  ([EGM96] does.)
> 
> I've removed the links as they are not stable. Just going with standard title, author pub date now.
> 
> > Section 9
> >
> > It seems like RFC 7950 is more properly classified as normative, since
> > you can't really make sense of YANG without ... knowing YANG.  I think
> > 8340 is sometimes listed as normative as well, but the case is not quite
> > as clear, here.
> >
> > NITS
> >
> > Abstract
> >
> >    This document defines a generic geographical location object YANG
> >    grouping.  [...]
> >
> > I'm having a hard time seeing what role the word "object" is playing
> > here, especially since in the next sentence we just refer to the
> > "geographical location grouping".
> 
> Removed "object"
> 
> > Section 3
> >
> >          description
> >            "A location on an astronomical body (e.g., 'earth')
> >             somewhere in a universe.";
> >
> > I guess in some alternate-systems the "astronomical body" bit may not
> > really be accurate.  (And possibly in some cartesian coordinate frames,
> > too, but that's less clear.)
> >
> >              type string {
> >                pattern '[ -@\[-\^_-~]*';
> >
> > If I'm reading my table correctly, '^' and '_' are adjacent, so this
> > rather-reader-unfriendly regex formulation can't even be justified as
> > the minimal encoding.
> 
> This has to do with working with limitations in the tools. The minimal encoding does not work unfortunately.
> 
> >                 '67p/churyumov-gerasimenko (a comet). The value should
> >                 be comprised of all lower case ASCII characters not
> >                 including control characters (i.e., values 32..64, and
> >                 91..126).  [...]
> >
> > "all lower case ASCII characters" inherently excludes control
> > characters, so "all lower case ASCII characters not including control
> > characters" is redundant.
> > Also, that doesn't match up the listed range of values (or the regex).
> > (Also^2, that doesn't match the given comet name, which has numbers and
> > punctuation.)
> 
> Changed to:
> 
> "The ASCII value SHOULD have upper case converted to lower case characters and not include control characters (i.e., values 32..64, and 91..126). Any preceding 'the' in the name SHOULD NOT be included.";
> 
> >                   for Cartesian coordinates. When coord-accuracy is
> >                   specified, it overrides the geodetic-datum implied
> >                   accuracy.";
> >                   [...]
> >                  "The accuracy of height value for ellipsoidal
> >                   coordinates, this value is not used with Cartesian
> >                   coordinates. When specified, it overrides the
> >                   geodetic-datum implied default.";
> >
> > I suggest using parallel language for "when specified, overrides implied
> > default".  (That is, "coord-accuracy" is currently explicitly named but
> > "height-accuracy" is not.)
> 
> Done.
> 
> >
> >            leaf v-up {
> >              type decimal64 {
> >                fraction-digits 12;
> >              }
> >              units "meters per second";
> >              description
> >                "v-up is the rate of change (i.e., speed) away from the
> >                 center of mass.";
> >
> > "center of mass" may not be universally applicable, e.g., to cartesian
> > coordinates, binary systems, extremely massive objects that are not the
> > astronomical-body of the reference-frame.
> 
> In this case the value is not relevant. Again, this isn't a big part of this specification, it's meant to track things like continental drift. If it's not useful as defined then it's simply not useful for that use.
> 
> > Section 4
> >
> > We probably should expand CRS at/before first usage.
> 
> Done, just under the table.
> 
> > Section 6.1
> >
> >    Each entry should be sufficient to define the 3 coordinate values (2
> >    if height is not required).  So for example the "wgs-84" is defined
> >
> > I'd suggest flipping the order, for "should be sufficient to define the
> > 2 coordinate values, and to define height if height is required".
> 
> Done.



From nobody Sat Jul 17 11:46:50 2021
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> writes:

> Hi Christian,
>
> Sorry for the very delayed reply (and thanks to Rob for the nudge).
>
> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 06:04:58PM -0400, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>
>> Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> writes:
>>
>> > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
>> > draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: Discuss
>> >
>> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> > introductory paragraph, however.)
>> >
>> >
>> > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> > for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>> >
>> >
>> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > DISCUSS:
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > I think we lack sufficient precision (forgive the pun) in how we talk
>> > about "accuracy" and "precision".  Are the leafs that claim to specify
>> > "accuracy" specifying a precision?  If so, the precision of a specific
>> > measurement, the precision of the measurements that led to the creation
>> > of the coordinate frame, or something else?  Are they doing so in
>> > relative terms (e.g., percentage) or absolute terms (e.g., degrees and
>> > meters)?  (There are "units" directives only for "height-accuracy" and
>> > not the others.)  How can we we say that we'll have 16 fraction-digits of
>> > precision for lat/long when the maximum accuracy we can say that a
>> > geodetic-system has only gives us 6 fraction-digits for coord-accuracy?
>> > When we say that the "precision of this measurement is indicated by the
>> > reference-frame" is that the same thing as the relevant "-accuracy"
>> > nodes, or something else?
>>
>> Yes, the geodesic-datum is what defines the values and their accuracy. For the
>> precision in the value we choose the fractional digits based on what might be
>> needed, but not to prescribe anything. For decimal degrees e.g., we only need
>> 100s values the rest can be left to the fractional portion.
>
> Unfortunately, even your description here still doesn't help me understand
> what the intended semantics of these values are.
>
> To help illustrate my confusion, here are a few possible things that could
> be what is intended to be conveyed:
>
> - the geodetic-datum description of the object has been measured to be
>   within a known delta of the actual object being described, at all points
>   on the object that the coordinate system can describe
>
> - the geodetic-datum description of the object is capable of determining
>   relative differences between points on the object to within a particular
>   delta of precision, but those individual coordinate values may be farther
>   than that delta from the actual point on the object that was referred to
>
> - the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect measurements
>   that were made and are known to be within some delta of the coordinate
>   system's value that they are reported as
>
> - the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect measurements
>   thare are known to be distinguishable from other measurements to within
>   some delta of other measurements relative to that coordinate system, even
>   though the actual position being indicated may diverge from the reported
>   value by more than that delta
>
> - the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect measurements
>   that were made and are known to be within some delta of the actual point
>   on the object that the coordinates refer to
>
> - the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect measurements
>   that were and are known to be distinguishable from other measurements of
>   points on that object within some delta, but the actual distance from the
>   measured point to the point on the object indicated by the reported
>   coordinates may be larger than that delta
>
> In short, there are at least three classes of things at play here: the
> actual object itself, the coordinate system used to model the object, and
> values reported in the YANG module (which are assumed to ultimately derive
> from some form of measurement).  To talk about accuracy or precision
> implies a relationship between elements of two of those classes, and I
> don't even know which of those classes you're trying to talk about.

Let's start with a simple baseline, if you want to dig any deeper than the well understood Lat+Long; do you know what a geodetic datum is? This is required knowledge if you want to get into anything more than the obvious Lat+Long use of this grouping. It defines the coordinates and also the accuracy of measurements.

It is out way out of scope for this YANG grouping to try and explain the huge field of geographic locations and geodetic datum and systems.

Thanks,
Chris.

>
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > COMMENT:
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > (I support Roman's Discuss.)
>> >
>> > Why do we only define velocity in terms of north/east/up, when we could
>> > be in x/y/z coordinates where there is no clear "north" or "east"?
>> >
>> > It would have been helpful for the shepherd review to point to the
>> > thread at
>> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/dA9olZfEVa3clGdfvNYEFXUEMJw/
>> > that attempted to discuss the feedback from the yangdoctor review -- the
>> > mail with the review itself got no direct replies.
>>
>> This is a very edge case of this grouping meant really to handle something
>> like continental drift with long stored values. One can keep drilling down on
>> this particular velocity value seemingly forever, but then we aren't getting
>> our work done. I think it's enough to say that if the usable values don't work
>> for a use case at this point, then they don't work.
>
> Sure, that's most of why this is in the non-blocking COMMENT section.
>
>
> The rest of this (including the follow-up) all looks fine; thanks for the
> replies and updates!
>
> -Ben
>
>> > Section 2.1
>> >
>> >    In addition to the "geodetic-datum" value, we allow refining the
>> >    coordinate and height accuracy using "coord-accuracy" and "height-
>> >
>> > My understanding is that "refine" is a YANG keyword, and the current
>> > module/tree structure does not seem consistent with this description
>> > referring to use of the YANG keyword (since we can just set new values
>> > directly without needing to "refine" the YANG structure itself).  A
>> > different word here might be appropriate.
>>
>> Ok changed to "overriding".
>>
>>
>> >    Finally, we define an optional feature which allows for changing the
>> >    system for which the above values are defined.  This optional feature
>> >    adds an "alternate-system" value to the reference frame.  This value
>> >    is normally not present which implies the natural universe is the
>> >    system.  The use of this value is intended to allow for creating
>> >    virtual realities or perhaps alternate coordinate systems.  The
>> >    definition of alternate systems is outside the scope of this
>> >    document.
>> >
>> > This paragraph doesn't really convince me that we need to include the
>> > "alternate-system" capability in the proposed-standard version of this
>> > YANG module at this time.
>>
>> It doesn't hurt anything to include it and it was asked for by the person who
>> came up with the shape of this grouping (Peter L.). Unless there's a strong
>> objection I'd prefer to leave it in deference to the person who asked for it.
>>
>> > Section 2.3
>> >
>> >    meters per second.  The values "v-north" and "v-east" are relative to
>> >    true north as defined by the reference frame for the astronomical
>> >    body, "v-up" is perpendicular to the plane defined by "v-north" and
>> >    "v-east", and is pointed away from the center of mass.
>> >
>> > When I read this I wondered if the "plane defined by v-north and v-east"
>> > was taken at the initial snapshot position, or continuously updated with
>> > the effect of v-north and v-east drift.  Given the stated application,
>> > it's unlikely that it actually would matter, though, so it's not clear
>> > that we should change the text to cover it.
>> >
>> > Section 3
>> >
>> >                   and 91..126). The IANA registry further restricts the
>> >                   value by converting all spaces (' ') to dashes ('-')";
>> >
>> > Is there a reason why we shouldn't disallow spaces via the regex (and
>> > obviate the need for special processing at IANA)?
>>
>> The thinking is to allow users to do more than what we IANA is limited to.
>>
>> > Section 5.1.2
>> >
>> > The following subsection suggests that there is a "heading" field in the
>> > W3C structure/API, but I don't see one listed in Figure 1.
>> >
>> > Section 6.1
>> >
>> > What are suitable references for the "me" and "mola-vik-1" geoedtic
>> > systems?  I do not see how just the listed descriptions provide a "clear
>> > definition" even for the two coordinate values latitude/longitude.
>> >
>> > Section 7
>> >
>> > Thanks for using the template for security considerations for YANG
>> > models!  I think that since some of the portions of the template do not
>> > apply, they can safely be removed.  In particular, the "these are the
>> > subtrees and data nodes and their sensitivity/vulnerability" lines can
>> > go, and the clause about "can have a negative effect on network
>> > operations" may be worth tweaking (network operations may not be the
>> > most likely thing to be impacted).  I think it's also okay to drop the
>> > paragraph/sentence about RPCs.
>> >
>> > Section 8
>> >
>> > The [WGS84] and [EGM08] links don't work for me.  ([EGM96] does.)
>>
>> I've removed the links as they are not stable. Just going with standard title, author pub date now.
>>
>> > Section 9
>> >
>> > It seems like RFC 7950 is more properly classified as normative, since
>> > you can't really make sense of YANG without ... knowing YANG.  I think
>> > 8340 is sometimes listed as normative as well, but the case is not quite
>> > as clear, here.
>> >
>> > NITS
>> >
>> > Abstract
>> >
>> >    This document defines a generic geographical location object YANG
>> >    grouping.  [...]
>> >
>> > I'm having a hard time seeing what role the word "object" is playing
>> > here, especially since in the next sentence we just refer to the
>> > "geographical location grouping".
>>
>> Removed "object"
>>
>> > Section 3
>> >
>> >          description
>> >            "A location on an astronomical body (e.g., 'earth')
>> >             somewhere in a universe.";
>> >
>> > I guess in some alternate-systems the "astronomical body" bit may not
>> > really be accurate.  (And possibly in some cartesian coordinate frames,
>> > too, but that's less clear.)
>> >
>> >              type string {
>> >                pattern '[ -@\[-\^_-~]*';
>> >
>> > If I'm reading my table correctly, '^' and '_' are adjacent, so this
>> > rather-reader-unfriendly regex formulation can't even be justified as
>> > the minimal encoding.
>>
>> This has to do with working with limitations in the tools. The minimal encoding does not work unfortunately.
>>
>> >                 '67p/churyumov-gerasimenko (a comet). The value should
>> >                 be comprised of all lower case ASCII characters not
>> >                 including control characters (i.e., values 32..64, and
>> >                 91..126).  [...]
>> >
>> > "all lower case ASCII characters" inherently excludes control
>> > characters, so "all lower case ASCII characters not including control
>> > characters" is redundant.
>> > Also, that doesn't match up the listed range of values (or the regex).
>> > (Also^2, that doesn't match the given comet name, which has numbers and
>> > punctuation.)
>>
>> Changed to:
>>
>> "The ASCII value SHOULD have upper case converted to lower case characters and not include control characters (i.e., values 32..64, and 91..126). Any preceding 'the' in the name SHOULD NOT be included.";
>>
>> >                   for Cartesian coordinates. When coord-accuracy is
>> >                   specified, it overrides the geodetic-datum implied
>> >                   accuracy.";
>> >                   [...]
>> >                  "The accuracy of height value for ellipsoidal
>> >                   coordinates, this value is not used with Cartesian
>> >                   coordinates. When specified, it overrides the
>> >                   geodetic-datum implied default.";
>> >
>> > I suggest using parallel language for "when specified, overrides implied
>> > default".  (That is, "coord-accuracy" is currently explicitly named but
>> > "height-accuracy" is not.)
>>
>> Done.
>>
>> >
>> >            leaf v-up {
>> >              type decimal64 {
>> >                fraction-digits 12;
>> >              }
>> >              units "meters per second";
>> >              description
>> >                "v-up is the rate of change (i.e., speed) away from the
>> >                 center of mass.";
>> >
>> > "center of mass" may not be universally applicable, e.g., to cartesian
>> > coordinates, binary systems, extremely massive objects that are not the
>> > astronomical-body of the reference-frame.
>>
>> In this case the value is not relevant. Again, this isn't a big part of this
>> specification, it's meant to track things like continental drift. If it's not
>> useful as defined then it's simply not useful for that use.
>>
>> > Section 4
>> >
>> > We probably should expand CRS at/before first usage.
>>
>> Done, just under the table.
>>
>> > Section 6.1
>> >
>> >    Each entry should be sufficient to define the 3 coordinate values (2
>> >    if height is not required).  So for example the "wgs-84" is defined
>> >
>> > I'd suggest flipping the order, for "should be sufficient to define the
>> > 2 coordinate values, and to define height if height is required".
>>
>> Done.


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From nobody Sat Jul 17 15:14:35 2021
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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 15:14:18 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location@ietf.org, netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, kent+ietf@watsen.net
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 02:38:55PM -0400, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> writes:
> 
> > Hi Christian,
> >
> > Sorry for the very delayed reply (and thanks to Rob for the nudge).
> >
> > On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 06:04:58PM -0400, Christian Hopps wrote:
> >>
> >> Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> writes:
> >>
> >> > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> >> > draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: Discuss
> >> >
> >> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> >> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> >> > introductory paragraph, however.)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> >> > for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > DISCUSS:
> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > I think we lack sufficient precision (forgive the pun) in how we talk
> >> > about "accuracy" and "precision".  Are the leafs that claim to specify
> >> > "accuracy" specifying a precision?  If so, the precision of a specific
> >> > measurement, the precision of the measurements that led to the creation
> >> > of the coordinate frame, or something else?  Are they doing so in
> >> > relative terms (e.g., percentage) or absolute terms (e.g., degrees and
> >> > meters)?  (There are "units" directives only for "height-accuracy" and
> >> > not the others.)  How can we we say that we'll have 16 fraction-digits of
> >> > precision for lat/long when the maximum accuracy we can say that a
> >> > geodetic-system has only gives us 6 fraction-digits for coord-accuracy?
> >> > When we say that the "precision of this measurement is indicated by the
> >> > reference-frame" is that the same thing as the relevant "-accuracy"
> >> > nodes, or something else?
> >>
> >> Yes, the geodesic-datum is what defines the values and their accuracy. For the
> >> precision in the value we choose the fractional digits based on what might be
> >> needed, but not to prescribe anything. For decimal degrees e.g., we only need
> >> 100s values the rest can be left to the fractional portion.
> >
> > Unfortunately, even your description here still doesn't help me understand
> > what the intended semantics of these values are.
> >
> > To help illustrate my confusion, here are a few possible things that could
> > be what is intended to be conveyed:
> >
> > - the geodetic-datum description of the object has been measured to be
> >   within a known delta of the actual object being described, at all points
> >   on the object that the coordinate system can describe
> >
> > - the geodetic-datum description of the object is capable of determining
> >   relative differences between points on the object to within a particular
> >   delta of precision, but those individual coordinate values may be farther
> >   than that delta from the actual point on the object that was referred to
> >
> > - the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect measurements
> >   that were made and are known to be within some delta of the coordinate
> >   system's value that they are reported as
> >
> > - the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect measurements
> >   thare are known to be distinguishable from other measurements to within
> >   some delta of other measurements relative to that coordinate system, even
> >   though the actual position being indicated may diverge from the reported
> >   value by more than that delta
> >
> > - the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect measurements
> >   that were made and are known to be within some delta of the actual point
> >   on the object that the coordinates refer to
> >
> > - the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect measurements
> >   that were and are known to be distinguishable from other measurements of
> >   points on that object within some delta, but the actual distance from the
> >   measured point to the point on the object indicated by the reported
> >   coordinates may be larger than that delta
> >
> > In short, there are at least three classes of things at play here: the
> > actual object itself, the coordinate system used to model the object, and
> > values reported in the YANG module (which are assumed to ultimately derive
> > from some form of measurement).  To talk about accuracy or precision
> > implies a relationship between elements of two of those classes, and I
> > don't even know which of those classes you're trying to talk about.
> 
> Let's start with a simple baseline, if you want to dig any deeper than the well understood Lat+Long; do you know what a geodetic datum is? This is required knowledge if you want to get into anything more than the obvious Lat+Long use of this grouping. It defines the coordinates and also the accuracy of measurements.

Well, I thought I did, but the fact that you are asking me makes me less
sure that I actually do.

Limiting just to the Earth for simplicity of discussion, it is "well known"
that the earth is not a perfect sphere; it's not even a regular ellipsoid.
Even discounting local topography on the surface, "mean sea level" varies
due to the differing internal density, angular momentum, and myriad other
factors.  So if we want to talk about coordinates of a point on the earth,
we have to build a model of the earth in which we define what our
coordinates mean.  We'll have to anchor our coordinate system to actual
points on the earth in some way, whether by defining an arbitrary origin at
a physical object, using the center of mass (which can at least in theory
be measured to very high precision), or some combination thereof.  But the
coordinate system remains a model of the actual earth, and there will be
some skew between them for points that in an ideal coordinate system would
match up exactly with the physical object.

The coordinate system will have inherent accuracy limits based on how much
skew there is between the idealized points in the coordinate system and the
actual points on earth they're supposed to represent.  When one makes a
measurement with respect to a given coordinate system there may also be
inherent limits to the precision of measurement that can be made with
respect to the coordinate system, e.g., if the coordinate system is defined
with respect to GPS points, the limits of GPS resolution are a bound on how
precisely one can make a measurement.

That's all well and good, but what I describe above is a property of the
coordinate system itself, not a property of individual measurements made
with reference to that coordinate system.  The YANG grouping we define here
allows overriding the coord-accuracy and height-accuracy on a
per-grouping-instantiation basis, i.e., for a single list of coordinates.
But those coordinates in the instantiation are certainly sometimes going to
be derived from measurements, and I expect that measurements will be the
overwhelming majority of usage.  Measurements, however, *also* have
accuracy and precision, but this time with respect to the coordinate system
they are being measured in.  Instrumental error and other factors can
introduce a systemtic bias in the measured values, leading to bad accuracy,
even if the precision of the group of measurements remains quite good, so
that relative comparisons within the dataset are reliable even if the
absolute numers are not reliable with respect to the coordinate system.

So, when we refine the coord-accuracy and height-accuracy for an
instantiation of the grouping, what does that mean?


> It is out way out of scope for this YANG grouping to try and explain the huge field of geographic locations and geodetic datum and systems.

Of course.  But we should have enough of a reference so that people can
have a way to read up and understand what the fields we are defining
actually mean.

-Ben


From nobody Sat Jul 17 16:17:23 2021
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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 19:17:09 -0400
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Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location@ietf.org, netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, kent+ietf@watsen.net
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
References: <162146723152.27764.1299479086437558158@ietfa.amsl.com> <m2fsy9cdhl.fsf@ja.int.chopps.org> <20210717173321.GE74365@kduck.mit.edu> <m2h7gssrqq.fsf@ja.int.chopps.org> <20210717221418.GF74365@kduck.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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> On Jul 17, 2021, at 6:14 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 02:38:55PM -0400, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>=20
>> Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> writes:
>>=20
>>> Hi Christian,
>>>=20
>>> Sorry for the very delayed reply (and thanks to Rob for the nudge).
>>>=20
>>> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 06:04:58PM -0400, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> writes:
>>>>=20
>>>>> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
>>>>> draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: Discuss
>>>>>=20
>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to =
all
>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
>>>>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>>>>> for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found =
here:
>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location/
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> DISCUSS:
>>>>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think we lack sufficient precision (forgive the pun) in how we =
talk
>>>>> about "accuracy" and "precision".  Are the leafs that claim to =
specify
>>>>> "accuracy" specifying a precision?  If so, the precision of a =
specific
>>>>> measurement, the precision of the measurements that led to the =
creation
>>>>> of the coordinate frame, or something else?  Are they doing so in
>>>>> relative terms (e.g., percentage) or absolute terms (e.g., degrees =
and
>>>>> meters)?  (There are "units" directives only for "height-accuracy" =
and
>>>>> not the others.)  How can we we say that we'll have 16 =
fraction-digits of
>>>>> precision for lat/long when the maximum accuracy we can say that a
>>>>> geodetic-system has only gives us 6 fraction-digits for =
coord-accuracy?
>>>>> When we say that the "precision of this measurement is indicated =
by the
>>>>> reference-frame" is that the same thing as the relevant =
"-accuracy"
>>>>> nodes, or something else?
>>>>=20
>>>> Yes, the geodesic-datum is what defines the values and their =
accuracy. For the
>>>> precision in the value we choose the fractional digits based on =
what might be
>>>> needed, but not to prescribe anything. For decimal degrees e.g., we =
only need
>>>> 100s values the rest can be left to the fractional portion.
>>>=20
>>> Unfortunately, even your description here still doesn't help me =
understand
>>> what the intended semantics of these values are.
>>>=20
>>> To help illustrate my confusion, here are a few possible things that =
could
>>> be what is intended to be conveyed:
>>>=20
>>> - the geodetic-datum description of the object has been measured to =
be
>>>  within a known delta of the actual object being described, at all =
points
>>>  on the object that the coordinate system can describe
>>>=20
>>> - the geodetic-datum description of the object is capable of =
determining
>>>  relative differences between points on the object to within a =
particular
>>>  delta of precision, but those individual coordinate values may be =
farther
>>>  than that delta from the actual point on the object that was =
referred to
>>>=20
>>> - the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect =
measurements
>>>  that were made and are known to be within some delta of the =
coordinate
>>>  system's value that they are reported as
>>>=20
>>> - the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect =
measurements
>>>  thare are known to be distinguishable from other measurements to =
within
>>>  some delta of other measurements relative to that coordinate =
system, even
>>>  though the actual position being indicated may diverge from the =
reported
>>>  value by more than that delta
>>>=20
>>> - the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect =
measurements
>>>  that were made and are known to be within some delta of the actual =
point
>>>  on the object that the coordinates refer to
>>>=20
>>> - the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect =
measurements
>>>  that were and are known to be distinguishable from other =
measurements of
>>>  points on that object within some delta, but the actual distance =
from the
>>>  measured point to the point on the object indicated by the reported
>>>  coordinates may be larger than that delta
>>>=20
>>> In short, there are at least three classes of things at play here: =
the
>>> actual object itself, the coordinate system used to model the =
object, and
>>> values reported in the YANG module (which are assumed to ultimately =
derive
>>> from some form of measurement).  To talk about accuracy or precision
>>> implies a relationship between elements of two of those classes, and =
I
>>> don't even know which of those classes you're trying to talk about.
>>=20
>> Let's start with a simple baseline, if you want to dig any deeper =
than the well understood Lat+Long; do you know what a geodetic datum is? =
This is required knowledge if you want to get into anything more than =
the obvious Lat+Long use of this grouping. It defines the coordinates =
and also the accuracy of measurements.
>=20
> Well, I thought I did, but the fact that you are asking me makes me =
less
> sure that I actually do.
>=20
> Limiting just to the Earth for simplicity of discussion, it is "well =
known"
> that the earth is not a perfect sphere; it's not even a regular =
ellipsoid.
> Even discounting local topography on the surface, "mean sea level" =
varies
> due to the differing internal density, angular momentum, and myriad =
other
> factors.  So if we want to talk about coordinates of a point on the =
earth,
> we have to build a model of the earth in which we define what our
> coordinates mean.  We'll have to anchor our coordinate system to =
actual
> points on the earth in some way, whether by defining an arbitrary =
origin at
> a physical object, using the center of mass (which can at least in =
theory
> be measured to very high precision), or some combination thereof.  But =
the
> coordinate system remains a model of the actual earth, and there will =
be
> some skew between them for points that in an ideal coordinate system =
would
> match up exactly with the physical object.
>=20
> The coordinate system will have inherent accuracy limits based on how =
much
> skew there is between the idealized points in the coordinate system =
and the
> actual points on earth they're supposed to represent.  When one makes =
a
> measurement with respect to a given coordinate system there may also =
be
> inherent limits to the precision of measurement that can be made with
> respect to the coordinate system, e.g., if the coordinate system is =
defined
> with respect to GPS points, the limits of GPS resolution are a bound =
on how
> precisely one can make a measurement.
>=20
> That's all well and good, but what I describe above is a property of =
the
> coordinate system itself, not a property of individual measurements =
made
> with reference to that coordinate system.  The YANG grouping we define =
here
> allows overriding the coord-accuracy and height-accuracy on a
> per-grouping-instantiation basis, i.e., for a single list of =
coordinates.
> But those coordinates in the instantiation are certainly sometimes =
going to
> be derived from measurements, and I expect that measurements will be =
the
> overwhelming majority of usage.  Measurements, however, *also* have
> accuracy and precision, but this time with respect to the coordinate =
system
> they are being measured in.  Instrumental error and other factors can
> introduce a systemtic bias in the measured values, leading to bad =
accuracy,
> even if the precision of the group of measurements remains quite good, =
so
> that relative comparisons within the dataset are reliable even if the
> absolute numers are not reliable with respect to the coordinate =
system.
>=20
> So, when we refine the coord-accuracy and height-accuracy for an
> instantiation of the grouping, what does that mean?

It=E2=80=99s supposed to mean the accuracy of the measurement that is =
recorded in the grouping. So if the coord-accuracy is .1 and the =
measurement is lat/long then the accuracy is within 1/10 of a decimal =
degree. if the measurement is in cart coordinates the accuracy would be =
100cm. I don=E2=80=99t think we need to make this anymore complex than =
that. Is there some text you would like to see to make that clearer?

Thanks,
Chris.

>=20
>=20
>> It is out way out of scope for this YANG grouping to try and explain =
the huge field of geographic locations and geodetic datum and systems.
>=20
> Of course.  But we should have enough of a reference so that people =
can
> have a way to read up and understand what the fields we are defining
> actually mean.
>=20
> -Ben


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jul 17, 2021, at 6:14 PM, Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" class=3D"">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
charset=3D"UTF-8" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 02:38:55PM -0400, Christian Hopps =
wrote:</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" =
class=3D"">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt; writes:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi Christian,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Sorry for the very delayed reply (and thanks =
to Rob for the nudge).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Wed, May 26, 2021 =
at 06:04:58PM -0400, Christian Hopps wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; writes:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Benjamin Kaduk has =
entered the following ballot position for<br =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: Discuss<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">When responding, please keep the subject line intact and =
reply to all<br class=3D"">email addresses included in the To and CC =
lines. (Feel free to cut this<br class=3D"">introductory paragraph, =
however.)<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please refer to <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><b=
r class=3D"">for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT =
positions.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The document, =
along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location=
/</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br class=3D"">DISCUSS:<br =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think we lack sufficient =
precision (forgive the pun) in how we talk<br class=3D"">about =
"accuracy" and "precision". &nbsp;Are the leafs that claim to specify<br =
class=3D"">"accuracy" specifying a precision? &nbsp;If so, the precision =
of a specific<br class=3D"">measurement, the precision of the =
measurements that led to the creation<br class=3D"">of the coordinate =
frame, or something else? &nbsp;Are they doing so in<br =
class=3D"">relative terms (e.g., percentage) or absolute terms (e.g., =
degrees and<br class=3D"">meters)? &nbsp;(There are "units" directives =
only for "height-accuracy" and<br class=3D"">not the others.) &nbsp;How =
can we we say that we'll have 16 fraction-digits of<br =
class=3D"">precision for lat/long when the maximum accuracy we can say =
that a<br class=3D"">geodetic-system has only gives us 6 fraction-digits =
for coord-accuracy?<br class=3D"">When we say that the "precision of =
this measurement is indicated by the<br class=3D"">reference-frame" is =
that the same thing as the relevant "-accuracy"<br class=3D"">nodes, or =
something else?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Yes, the =
geodesic-datum is what defines the values and their accuracy. For the<br =
class=3D"">precision in the value we choose the fractional digits based =
on what might be<br class=3D"">needed, but not to prescribe anything. =
For decimal degrees e.g., we only need<br class=3D"">100s values the =
rest can be left to the fractional portion.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br=
 class=3D"">Unfortunately, even your description here still doesn't help =
me understand<br class=3D"">what the intended semantics of these values =
are.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">To help illustrate my confusion, here =
are a few possible things that could<br class=3D"">be what is intended =
to be conveyed:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">- the geodetic-datum =
description of the object has been measured to be<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;within a known delta of the actual object being =
described, at all points<br class=3D"">&nbsp;on the object that the =
coordinate system can describe<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">- the =
geodetic-datum description of the object is capable of determining<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;relative differences between points on the object to =
within a particular<br class=3D"">&nbsp;delta of precision, but those =
individual coordinate values may be farther<br class=3D"">&nbsp;than =
that delta from the actual point on the object that was referred to<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">- the values that are reported in this YANG =
module reflect measurements<br class=3D"">&nbsp;that were made and are =
known to be within some delta of the coordinate<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;system's value that they are reported as<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">- the values that are reported in this YANG =
module reflect measurements<br class=3D"">&nbsp;thare are known to be =
distinguishable from other measurements to within<br class=3D"">&nbsp;some=
 delta of other measurements relative to that coordinate system, even<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;though the actual position being indicated may diverge =
from the reported<br class=3D"">&nbsp;value by more than that delta<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">- the values that are reported in this YANG =
module reflect measurements<br class=3D"">&nbsp;that were made and are =
known to be within some delta of the actual point<br class=3D"">&nbsp;on =
the object that the coordinates refer to<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">- =
the values that are reported in this YANG module reflect measurements<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;that were and are known to be distinguishable from =
other measurements of<br class=3D"">&nbsp;points on that object within =
some delta, but the actual distance from the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;measured =
point to the point on the object indicated by the reported<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;coordinates may be larger than that delta<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">In short, there are at least three classes of =
things at play here: the<br class=3D"">actual object itself, the =
coordinate system used to model the object, and<br class=3D"">values =
reported in the YANG module (which are assumed to ultimately derive<br =
class=3D"">from some form of measurement). &nbsp;To talk about accuracy =
or precision<br class=3D"">implies a relationship between elements of =
two of those classes, and I<br class=3D"">don't even know which of those =
classes you're trying to talk about.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">Let's start with a simple baseline, if you want to dig any =
deeper than the well understood Lat+Long; do you know what a geodetic =
datum is? This is required knowledge if you want to get into anything =
more than the obvious Lat+Long use of this grouping. It defines the =
coordinates and also the accuracy of measurements.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Well, I thought I did, but the fact that you are asking me =
makes me less</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">sure that I =
actually do.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Limiting just =
to the Earth for simplicity of discussion, it is "well known"</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">that the =
earth is not a perfect sphere; it's not even a regular =
ellipsoid.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Even =
discounting local topography on the surface, "mean sea level" =
varies</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">due to the =
differing internal density, angular momentum, and myriad other</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">factors. =
&nbsp;So if we want to talk about coordinates of a point on the =
earth,</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">we have to =
build a model of the earth in which we define what our</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">coordinates =
mean. &nbsp;We'll have to anchor our coordinate system to =
actual</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">points on the =
earth in some way, whether by defining an arbitrary origin at</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">a physical =
object, using the center of mass (which can at least in theory</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">be measured =
to very high precision), or some combination thereof. &nbsp;But =
the</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">coordinate =
system remains a model of the actual earth, and there will be</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">some skew =
between them for points that in an ideal coordinate system =
would</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">match up =
exactly with the physical object.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">The coordinate system will have inherent accuracy limits =
based on how much</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">skew there is between the idealized points in the coordinate =
system and the</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">actual points on earth they're supposed to represent. =
&nbsp;When one makes a</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">measurement with respect to a given coordinate system there =
may also be</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">inherent =
limits to the precision of measurement that can be made with</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">respect to =
the coordinate system, e.g., if the coordinate system is =
defined</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">with respect =
to GPS points, the limits of GPS resolution are a bound on how</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">precisely one =
can make a measurement.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">That's all well and good, but what I describe above is a =
property of the</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">coordinate system itself, not a property of individual =
measurements made</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">with reference to that coordinate system. &nbsp;The YANG =
grouping we define here</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">allows overriding the coord-accuracy and height-accuracy on =
a</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">per-grouping-instantiation basis, i.e., for a single list of =
coordinates.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">But those =
coordinates in the instantiation are certainly sometimes going =
to</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">be derived =
from measurements, and I expect that measurements will be the</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">overwhelming =
majority of usage. &nbsp;Measurements, however, *also* have</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">accuracy and =
precision, but this time with respect to the coordinate system</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">they are =
being measured in. &nbsp;Instrumental error and other factors =
can</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">introduce a =
systemtic bias in the measured values, leading to bad =
accuracy,</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">even if the =
precision of the group of measurements remains quite good, so</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">that relative =
comparisons within the dataset are reliable even if the</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">absolute =
numers are not reliable with respect to the coordinate system.</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">So, when we =
refine the coord-accuracy and height-accuracy for an</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">instantiation =
of the grouping, what does that mean?</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>It=E2=80=99s supposed to mean the accuracy of the =
measurement that is recorded in the grouping. So if the coord-accuracy =
is .1 and the measurement is lat/long then the accuracy is within 1/10 =
of a decimal degree. if the measurement is in cart coordinates the =
accuracy would be 100cm. I don=E2=80=99t think we need to make this =
anymore complex than that. Is there some text you would like to see to =
make that clearer?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Chris.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">It is =
out way out of scope for this YANG grouping to try and explain the huge =
field of geographic locations and geodetic datum and systems.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Of course. &nbsp;But we should have enough of a reference so =
that people can</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">have a way to read up and understand what the fields we are =
defining</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">actually =
mean.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">-Ben</span></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_CF5B26B2-E070-40A3-863C-C212257F49D1--


From nobody Sat Jul 17 16:25:16 2021
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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 16:24:56 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location@ietf.org, netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, kent+ietf@watsen.net
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 07:17:09PM -0400, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Jul 17, 2021, at 6:14 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > So, when we refine the coord-accuracy and height-accuracy for an
> > instantiation of the grouping, what does that mean?
> 
> Itâ€™s supposed to mean the accuracy of the measurement that is recorded in the grouping. So if the coord-accuracy is .1 and the measurement is lat/long then the accuracy is within 1/10 of a decimal degree. if the measurement is in cart coordinates the accuracy would be 100cm. I donâ€™t think we need to make this anymore complex than that. Is there some text you would like to see to make that clearer?

The accuracy of the measurement with respect to what?  The coordinate
system, or the actual physical object?

And, if the concept here is that "I made a measurement, and my measurement
device reported a value to 1/10 of a decimal degree", that would typically
correspond to a "precision" rather than an "accuracy"
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision).

In either case, I think that "accuracy of the measurement recorded in the
grouping" is a qualitatively different concept of "accuracy" than the
listed accuracy of the geodetic-datum, which (AIUI) relates to the maximum
deviation between the model of the object used by the coordinate system and
the actual physical object.  So it's not really clear that we should be
talking the one "overriding" the other.

-Ben


From nobody Mon Jul 19 09:12:24 2021
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From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 12:12:09 -0400
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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> On Jul 17, 2021, at 7:24 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 07:17:09PM -0400, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Jul 17, 2021, at 6:14 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> So, when we refine the coord-accuracy and height-accuracy for an
>>> instantiation of the grouping, what does that mean?
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s supposed to mean the accuracy of the measurement that is =
recorded in the grouping. So if the coord-accuracy is .1 and the =
measurement is lat/long then the accuracy is within 1/10 of a decimal =
degree. if the measurement is in cart coordinates the accuracy would be =
100cm. I don=E2=80=99t think we need to make this anymore complex than =
that. Is there some text you would like to see to make that clearer?
>=20
> The accuracy of the measurement with respect to what?  The coordinate
> system, or the actual physical object?

I really don=E2=80=99t see how this could be so confusing.

This grouping is a location, the accuracy applies to the contained =
location data. Consider asking this question about some other field like =
the lat/long =E2=80=94 it doesn=E2=80=99t make sense.

I can=E2=80=99t say for sure, but I think you=E2=80=99ve discarded the =
obvious here and are getting pedantic about something that=E2=80=99s not =
actually confusing.

Finally, as we (the IETF) are not geo location experts, we had this =
grouping reviewed by actual industry experts (thanked in the =
acknowledgment section) and they had no issue with these fields. I would =
be very hesitant to change what they reviewed as correct at this point =
based on pedantic musings.

Thanks,
Chris.

>=20
> And, if the concept here is that "I made a measurement, and my =
measurement
> device reported a value to 1/10 of a decimal degree", that would =
typically
> correspond to a "precision" rather than an "accuracy"
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision).
>=20
> In either case, I think that "accuracy of the measurement recorded in =
the
> grouping" is a qualitatively different concept of "accuracy" than the
> listed accuracy of the geodetic-datum, which (AIUI) relates to the =
maximum
> deviation between the model of the object used by the coordinate =
system and
> the actual physical object.  So it's not really clear that we should =
be
> talking the one "overriding" the other.
>=20
> -Ben
>=20


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Subject: [netmod] The 111 Agenda has been updated
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The NETMOD Agenda has been updated.  The update is an additional =
discussion slot for "draft-ma-netconf-with-system=E2=80=9D, which needs =
to be renamed (s/netconf/netmod).  As you may recall, this is the draft =
that has been discussed on the NETMOD list the last several days.

The new/complete agenda is:


-------------------------------------------------------
Agenda for the NETMOD 111 WG Session
-------------------------------------------------------
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/agenda-111-netmod

Session:
   Tuesday, July 27, 2021
   Session II (21:30-22:30 UTC, 14:30-15:30 PDT)

WG Chairs:
   Lou Berger    (lberger at labs dot net)
   Kent Watsen (kent plus ietf at watsen dot net)
   Joel Jaeggli    (joelja at bogus dot com)

Available During Session:
   WG ICS: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/sessions/netmod.ics
   ICS: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/session/28884.ics
   MeetEcho: https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/ietf111/?group=3Dnetmod
   Jabber:          xmpp:netmod@jabber.ietf.org?join

Available During / After Session:
   CodiMD:        https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-111-netmod
   Slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/session/netmod
   Drafts (TGZ): =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/agenda/netmod-drafts.tgz
   Drafts (PDF): =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/agenda/netmod-drafts.pdf

Available After Session:
   Recording:     http://www.meetecho.com/ietf111/recordings#NETMOD
   Jabber Logs:   https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/netmod

Introduction
   Chairs (10 minutes)
   Session Intro & WG Status

Chartered items:
   YANG Versioning Update (30 min)
   =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning/=

   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-semver/
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages/
   =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-ver-selection/
   =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-schema-comparison/=

   Overview - Jason Sterne
   YANG Module Versioning Draft - Jason Sterne
   YANG Semver Draft - Joe Clarke

Non-Chartered items:

   System Configuration Data Handling Behavior (15 min)
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ma-netconf-with-system
   Discussion Leader: Qiufang Ma



Remaining 5 min.=20



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YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-07-20

We reviewed the IETF111 slides.  Jason, Reshad, Joe to submit them in the n=
ext few days

Remaining open issues on Module Versioning & Semver drafts:
    - include as part of yang 1.1 ? (in Jason's slides)
                - text for removal of history (Rob)
                - top down reviews

We started going through the open github issues.

For next meeting(s):
- continue review of open github issues to classify/tag them
- plan for Packages work (editing, drafting text)

Jason

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break-word">
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-07-20<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We reviewed the IETF111 slides.&nbsp; Jason, Reshad,=
 Joe to submit them in the next few days<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Remaining open issues on Module Versioning &amp; Sem=
ver drafts:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - include as part of yang 1.1 ? (=
in Jason's slides)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - text for removal of history (Rob)<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - top down reviews<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We started going through the open github issues.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For next meeting(s):<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- continue review of open github issues to classify/=
tag them&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- plan for Packages work (editing, drafting text)<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jason<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">----------------------------------------------<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dma7627a2ae7=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tap to join from a mobile device (attendees only)<o:=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1-650-479-3208,,1710690374## Call-in toll number (U=
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From: Reshad Rahman <reshad@yahoo.com>
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Hi,

=20

Are there any defined types for V4 and V6 link-local addresses? Didn=E2=80=99t se=
e a definition in ietf-inet-types.

=20

Regards,

Reshad.


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></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Are there an=
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/P-D1OhKPS8DVqsSQ0sN760ZOQsk>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Link-local address
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On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 03:37:08PM -0400, Reshad Rahman wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Are there any defined types for V4 and V6 link-local addresses? Didnâ€™t see a definition in ietf-inet-types.
> 

So far we stayed away from defining specific types for the different
"classes" of IP addresses, such as link-local or multi-cast or private
or loopback or ... addresses.

Since an ip-address (ipv4-address, ipv6-address) carries an optional
zone index, it should be possible to derive further types that add a
pattern for the specific prefixes, e.g. something like this:

typedef ipv6-address-link-local {
  type ipv6-address
  pattern '[fF][eE]80:.*'
  description
    "A link-local IPv6 address in the prefix fe80::/10 as defined
     in section 2.5.6. of RFC 4291."
  reference
    "RFC 4291: IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture"
}

Translating the prefix into a pattern is a bit ugly but doable. The
pattern does not try to capture all restrictions but the description
clause takes care of this. ;-)

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/PkFXq87uga8v_Y59UR7oBRejlVs>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Murray Kucherawy's No Objection on draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: (with COMMENT)
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Hi,

So here is the implementation ...

$ apt-get install yangcli

$ yangcli --server=lightside-instruments.com --ncport=10830 --user=user 
--password=ietf111 --display-mode=xml --run-command="xget /geo-location" 
--batch-mode

...

<rpc-reply xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
 Â  <data>
 Â Â Â  <geo-location xmlns="http://example.com/ns/geo-location">
 Â Â Â Â Â  <latitude>59.9145666710000000</latitude>
 Â Â Â Â Â  <longitude>10.7492606760000000</longitude>
 Â Â Â  </geo-location>
 Â  </data>
</rpc-reply>


The implementation 
https://github.com/vlvassilev/yuma123/tree/master/example-modules/geo-location


The target system is this 
https://www.hackster.io/lightside-instruments/network-programmability-kit-for-ultra96-07435c 
hosted at Bitraf - makerspace in Oslo.


/Vladimir


On 20/05/2021 11.33, Vladimir Vassilev wrote:
>
> On 20/05/2021 10.43, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>
>> Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> writes:
>>>
>>> I support Lars' and Francesca's DISCUSS positions.
>>>
>>> The shepherd writeup says: "There are no known implementations known 
>>> to the
>>> Shepherd.Â  No vendors have indicated their plan to implement the 
>>> specification.
>>> Â It was originally forwarded to support DT's Terra Stream project."Â  
>>> I'm
>>> tempted to ask why this is slotted for Standards Track publication.
>>
>> It's a grouping, it's meant to be incorporated into other YANG 
>> modules rather than have each module come up with their own version 
>> of a geo-location object.
>>
>> So, it's wont be "implemented" directly by any vendor until it is 
>> published and can start to be used in other module definitions. There 
>> definitely is interest in this use in the netmod WG.
>>
> Hi,
>
> I intend to use the grouping in our implementation. We can do that at 
> the upcoming Hackathon event and validate the module with some running 
> code.
>
> /Vladimir
>


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:59:55 -0700
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To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>,  NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/JzROOJYtVzL6nYoS1WiIwDMh-KQ>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
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Hi,

None of this addresses my point that a default value of "trim" is not
appropriate.
Simply remove the default-stmt so that a missing leaf instance means that
no information is provided, rather than meaning defaults were added for
basic-mode=3Dtrim.


Andy


On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 8:38 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Hi Andy, Balazs,
>
>
>
> So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are
> in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342:
>
>
>
>    Requests to retrieve nodes from <operational> always return the value
>
>    in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified
>
>    in the YANG module.  If no value is returned for a given node, then
>
>    this implies that the node is not used by the device.
>
>
>
> It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data
> cannot differentiate between:
>
> (i)                  This value is not present because it matches the
> default value specified in the YANG module, and
>
> (ii)                This value is not present because the server has
> failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would
> have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug=
,
> or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation).
>
>
>
> So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not
> necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the
> instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this da=
ta.
>
>
>
> I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf.  Another
> way of articulating this would be:
>
>
>
> leaf in-use-values {
>
>   type boolean;
>
>   default false;
>
>   description
>
>     =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the
>
>      instance data for a given data node implies that the
>
>     node is not used rather than implicitly taking the
>
>      default value specified by any corresponding
>
>     =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2=
=80=9D;
>
> }
>
>
>
> With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-def=
ault=E2=80=9D leaf
> currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that
> leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=
=E2=80=9D.
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> *Sent:* 10 July 2021 17:41
> *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <
> balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>
> Andy,
>
>
>
> Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be
> sufficient.  My point being that automatically filtering out default valu=
es
> isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The solution is simple.
>
> Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement.
>
>
>
> If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to
> include defaults.
>
> If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or
> defaults were not added.
>
>
>
> The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode.
>
> All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever
>
> been able to convince the others that theirs is right.
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> E.g., something along these lines:
>
>
>
> leaf exclude-defaults {
>
>   type boolean;
>
>   default true;
>
>   description
>
>     =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file.
>
>
>
>       When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined a=
nd
>
>       where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the
> content
>
>       data.
>
>
>
>       When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered,
> and
>
>       may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D
>
> }
>
>
>
> Would this satisfy your concern?
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman
> *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16
> *To:* NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> The module has this object:
>
>
>
>     leaf includes-defaults {
>
>        type enumeration {
>
>          enum report-all {
>
>            value 1;
>
>            description
>
>              "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
>
>                any default values.";
>
>          }
>
>          enum trim {
>
>            value 2;
>
>            description
>
>              "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
>
>                the actual value is the default value SHOULD
>
>                NOT be included.";
>
>          }
>
>          enum explicit {
>
>            value 3;
>
>            description
>
>              "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
>
>                the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
>
>                included. However, if the actual value was set by
>
>                a NETCONF client or other management application
>
>                by the way of an explicit management operation the
>
>                data node SHOULD be included.";
>
>          }
>
>        }
>
>        default trim;
>
>
>
> The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this
>
> leaf is too server-centric to ignore.
>
>
>
> Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF
> server.
>
> This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct.
>
>
>
> IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also
>
> know the YANG defaults.  The solution is incomplete anyway because
>
> the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.
>
> The  "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults.
>
> IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown=
".
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
>

--00000000000038bb0805c81dcd62
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>None of this addresses m=
y point that a default value of &quot;trim&quot; is not appropriate.</div><=
div>Simply remove the default-stmt so that a missing leaf instance means th=
at</div><div>no information is provided, rather than meaning defaults were =
added for basic-mode=3Dtrim.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</=
div><div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 8:38 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-2257166512806868694WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi Andy, Balazs,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate =
whether default values are in use is because of this definition of operatio=
nal in RFC 8342:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requests to retrieve nodes from &lt=
;operational&gt; always return the value<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 in use if the node exists, regardle=
ss of any default value specified<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the YANG module.=C2=A0 If no val=
ue is returned for a given node, then<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 this implies that the node is not u=
sed by the device.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>It was written this way because otherwise a co=
nsumer of operational data cannot differentiate between:<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-2257166512806868694MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:54pt">
<u></u><span><span>(i)<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span>This value is not present because it matc=
hes the default value specified in the YANG module, and<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-2257166512806868694MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:54pt">
<u></u><span><span>(ii)<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span>This value is not present because the ser=
ver has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that =
would have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it
 is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation).<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>So, I think that in some cases, the absence of=
 a data node does not necessarily mean that the default value is in effect,=
 and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to contain and correctl=
y
 report this data.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>I think that this behaviour could be captured =
by a single leaf.=C2=A0 Another way of articulating this would be:<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:Consolas">leaf in-use-values {<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0 type boolean;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0 default false;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9COnly if set to true,=
 the absence of a value in the<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data for a giv=
en data node implies that the<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0node is not used rather =
than implicitly taking the<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default value specified=
 by any corresponding<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=98default=E2=80=
=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2=80=9D;<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:Consolas">}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we nee=
d the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the dr=
aft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely optional=
, i.e., without the default
 =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards,<br>
Rob<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">F=
rom:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:and=
y@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 10 July 2021 17:41<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> NetMod WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balaz=
s.lengyel@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&g=
t;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:=
23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Andy,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be suf=
ficient.=C2=A0 My point being that automatically filtering out default valu=
es isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">The solution is simple.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Get rid of the inappropri=
ate &quot;default trim&quot; statement.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">If the leaf is present th=
en it identifies the basic-mode that was used to include defaults.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">If not then the informati=
on is either not known, not applicable, or defaults were not added.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">The &quot;default&quot; s=
tatement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">All of the basic-modes ar=
e in use in deployments and no camp has ever<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">been able to convince the=
 others that theirs is right.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
E.g., something along these lines:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
leaf exclude-defaults {<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0 type boolean;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0 default true;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content d=
ata file.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When unset or set to true, data nodes that h=
ave a default defined and<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value is the default value =
are excluded from the content<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0data.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When set to false, data nodes with default v=
alue are not filtered, and<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
}<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Would this satisfy your concern?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Regards,<br>
Rob<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> netmod &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod-bounces@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andy Bierman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 08 July 2021 18:16<br>
<b>To:</b> NetMod WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
The module has this object:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {</span><u></u><u></u></p=
re>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;All data no=
des SHOULD be included independent of</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any d=
efault values.&quot;;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Data nodes =
that have a default defined and where</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the a=
ctual value is the default value SHOULD</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT b=
e included.&quot;;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Data nodes =
that have a default defined and where</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the a=
ctual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 inclu=
ded. However, if the actual value was set by</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NET=
CONF client or other management application</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by th=
e way of an explicit management operation the</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data =
node SHOULD be included.&quot;;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default trim;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
leaf is too server-centric to ignore.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF serve=
r.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
This data may not be known so the default of &quot;trim&quot; may not be co=
rrect.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
know the YANG defaults.=C2=A0 The solution is incomplete anyway because<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
The=C2=A0 &quot;report-all-tagged&quot; mode must be used to identify defau=
lts.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called &quot;unkn=
own&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000038bb0805c81dcd62--


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 11:11:28 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHQtJjzDCyGAO+RjZvURAN2vTBd-H3dA+A79rQrD8rE+6g@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>,  NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/m5-iqH1dIWRw7DgRsbozuSA1tas>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
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On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 10:47 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Hi Andy,
>
>
>
> The comment at the end of my email was:
>
> =E2=80=9CWith this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cinc=
ludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf
> currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that
> leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=
=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D
>

OK then we are in agreement about the default-stmt.


WRT:

     the absence of a data node does not necessarily mean that the default
value is in effect,

Agreed. However this is not a server-wide corner-case, so a global flag
does not really help.
Even if the server is adding defaults, it may not know the current "in-use"
value for 1 leaf.
Following NMDA rules, the server does not report anything.  Note that this
is a corner-case within
NMDA <operational> and has nothing whatsoever to do with the YANG instance
file RFC.

The solution to this NMDA problem is to report the unknown leaf with an
attribute that indicates "no-data".
Otherwise a missing leaf with a YANG default will be incorrectly
interpreted as an "in-use" value.





> Regards,
>
> Rob
>
>
>

Andy


>
>
> *From:* Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> *Sent:* 27 July 2021 18:00
> *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; NetMod WG <
> netmod@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> None of this addresses my point that a default value of "trim" is not
> appropriate.
>
> Simply remove the default-stmt so that a missing leaf instance means that
>
> no information is provided, rather than meaning defaults were added for
> basic-mode=3Dtrim.
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 8:38 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Andy, Balazs,
>
>
>
> So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are
> in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342:
>
>
>
>    Requests to retrieve nodes from <operational> always return the value
>
>    in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified
>
>    in the YANG module.  If no value is returned for a given node, then
>
>    this implies that the node is not used by the device.
>
>
>
> It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data
> cannot differentiate between:
>
> (i)                  This value is not present because it matches the
> default value specified in the YANG module, and
>
> (ii)                This value is not present because the server has
> failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would
> have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug=
,
> or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation).
>
>
>
> So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not
> necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the
> instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this da=
ta.
>
>
>
> I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf.  Another
> way of articulating this would be:
>
>
>
> leaf in-use-values {
>
>   type boolean;
>
>   default false;
>
>   description
>
>     =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the
>
>      instance data for a given data node implies that the
>
>     node is not used rather than implicitly taking the
>
>      default value specified by any corresponding
>
>     =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2=
=80=9D;
>
> }
>
>
>
> With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-def=
ault=E2=80=9D leaf
> currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that
> leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=
=E2=80=9D.
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> *Sent:* 10 July 2021 17:41
> *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <
> balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>
> Andy,
>
>
>
> Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be
> sufficient.  My point being that automatically filtering out default valu=
es
> isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The solution is simple.
>
> Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement.
>
>
>
> If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to
> include defaults.
>
> If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or
> defaults were not added.
>
>
>
> The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode.
>
> All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever
>
> been able to convince the others that theirs is right.
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> E.g., something along these lines:
>
>
>
> leaf exclude-defaults {
>
>   type boolean;
>
>   default true;
>
>   description
>
>     =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file.
>
>
>
>       When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined a=
nd
>
>       where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the
> content
>
>       data.
>
>
>
>       When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered,
> and
>
>       may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D
>
> }
>
>
>
> Would this satisfy your concern?
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman
> *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16
> *To:* NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> The module has this object:
>
>
>
>     leaf includes-defaults {
>
>        type enumeration {
>
>          enum report-all {
>
>            value 1;
>
>            description
>
>              "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
>
>                any default values.";
>
>          }
>
>          enum trim {
>
>            value 2;
>
>            description
>
>              "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
>
>                the actual value is the default value SHOULD
>
>                NOT be included.";
>
>          }
>
>          enum explicit {
>
>            value 3;
>
>            description
>
>              "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
>
>                the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
>
>                included. However, if the actual value was set by
>
>                a NETCONF client or other management application
>
>                by the way of an explicit management operation the
>
>                data node SHOULD be included.";
>
>          }
>
>        }
>
>        default trim;
>
>
>
> The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this
>
> leaf is too server-centric to ignore.
>
>
>
> Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF
> server.
>
> This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct.
>
>
>
> IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also
>
> know the YANG defaults.  The solution is incomplete anyway because
>
> the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.
>
> The  "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults.
>
> IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown=
".
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 10:47 AM Rob =
Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-GB">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi Andy,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>The comment at the end of my email was:<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=E2=80=9C</span>With this, I=E2=80=99m not sur=
e whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently spe=
cified in the draft, but if we do, then I would
 think that leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=
=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>OK then we are in agreement about the default-stmt.</div><div><br></div>=
<div><br></div><div>WRT:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the a=
bsence of a data node does not necessarily mean that the default value is i=
n effect,<br></div><div><br></div><div>Agreed. However this is not a server=
-wide corner-case, so a global=C2=A0flag does not really help.</div><div>Ev=
en if the server is adding defaults, it may not know the current &quot;in-u=
se&quot; value for 1 leaf.</div><div>Following NMDA rules, the server does =
not report anything.=C2=A0 Note that this is a corner-case within</div><div=
>NMDA &lt;operational&gt; and has nothing whatsoever to do with the YANG in=
stance file RFC.</div><div><br></div><div>The solution to this NMDA problem=
 is to report the unknown leaf with an attribute that indicates &quot;no-da=
ta&quot;.</div><div>Otherwise a missing leaf with a YANG default will be in=
correctly interpreted as an &quot;in-use&quot; value.</div><div><br></div><=
div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-GB"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Rob<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-GB"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">F=
rom:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:and=
y@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 27 July 2021 18:00<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsso=
n.com" target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; NetMod WG &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">None of this addresses my=
 point that a default value of &quot;trim&quot; is not appropriate.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Simply remove the default=
-stmt so that a missing leaf instance means that<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">no information is provide=
d, rather than meaning defaults were added for basic-mode=3Dtrim.<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 8=
:38 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Hi Andy, Balazs,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are in=
 use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:bla=
ck">=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requests to retrieve nodes from &lt;operational&gt; always=
 return the value</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:bla=
ck">=C2=A0=C2=A0 in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value=
 specified</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:bla=
ck">=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the YANG module.=C2=A0 If no value is returned for a gi=
ven node, then</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:bla=
ck">=C2=A0=C2=A0 this implies that the node is not used by the device.</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data ca=
nnot differentiate between:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:90pt">
(i)<span style=3D"font-size:7pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>This value is not present because it matches the default value speci=
fied in the YANG module, and<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:90pt">
(ii)<span style=3D"font-size:7pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>This value is not present because the server has failed to return it=
 for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have provided this va=
lue is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is not =
implemented and is a missing deviation).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not necessa=
rily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the instance-da=
ta document to be able to contain and correctly report this data.<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf.=C2=A0 Anoth=
er way of articulating this would be:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Consolas">leaf in-use-values {</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0 type boolean;</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0 default false;</=
span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0 description</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=
=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 instance data for a given data node implies that the</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0node is not used rather than implicitly taking the</span><u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 default value specified by any corresponding</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2=80=
=9D;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Consolas">}</span><u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-defau=
lt=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I wou=
ld think that leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =
=E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Regards,<br>
Rob<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Andy Bierman =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.=
com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 10 July 2021 17:41<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> NetMod WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balaz=
s.lengyel@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&g=
t;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
wilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0c=
m 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
Andy,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be suf=
ficient.=C2=A0 My point being that automatically filtering out default valu=
es isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
The solution is simple.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
Get rid of the inappropriate &quot;default trim&quot; statement.<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to i=
nclude defaults.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or default=
s were not added.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
The &quot;default&quot; statement is a bug because there is no default basi=
c-mode.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
been able to convince the others that theirs is right.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0c=
m 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
E.g., something along these lines:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
leaf exclude-defaults {<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0 type boolean;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0 default true;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content d=
ata file.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When unset or set to true, data nodes that h=
ave a default defined and<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value is the default value =
are excluded from the content<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0data.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When set to false, data nodes with default v=
alue are not filtered, and<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
}<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
Would this satisfy your concern?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
Regards,<br>
Rob<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> netmod &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod-bounces@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andy Bierman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 08 July 2021 18:16<br>
<b>To:</b> NetMod WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
The module has this object:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {</span><u></u><u></u></p=
re>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;All data no=
des SHOULD be included independent of</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any d=
efault values.&quot;;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Data nodes =
that have a default defined and where</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the a=
ctual value is the default value SHOULD</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT b=
e included.&quot;;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Data nodes =
that have a default defined and where</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the a=
ctual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 inclu=
ded. However, if the actual value was set by</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NET=
CONF client or other management application</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by th=
e way of an explicit management operation the</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data =
node SHOULD be included.&quot;;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default trim;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
leaf is too server-centric to ignore.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF serve=
r.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
This data may not be known so the default of &quot;trim&quot; may not be co=
rrect.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
know the YANG defaults.=C2=A0 The solution is incomplete anyway because<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
The=C2=A0 &quot;report-all-tagged&quot; mode must be used to identify defau=
lts.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called &quot;unkn=
own&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000001e666f05c81ecd56--


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Comparison of NMDA datastores
        Authors         : Alexander Clemm
                          Yingzhen Qu
                          Jeff Tantsura
                          Andy Bierman
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-11.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2021-07-27

Abstract:
   This document defines an RPC operation to compare management
   datastores that comply with the NMDA architecture.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-11


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-07-27

We reviewed and updated the IETF111 slides
- moved discussion of the main open issue (YANG 1.1 vs 1.2 vs 2.0) to the e=
nd
- added summary slides of 1st two drafts

Reconfirmed reasons why we propose these drafts as part of YANG 1.1:
   - no real harm for anyone who doesn't use them (or tools that don't supp=
ort them)
       - imports today are ambiguous
                  - file names are optional (can be mitigated, minor effort=
 to update tooling for this)
   - adds value for something happening today (vendors are already doing pr=
oprietary work arounds,IETF models have had some NBC changes)
   - NBC changes in IETF models: IANA (AFI/SAFIs removed).  L3SM.  Other ca=
ses are likely coming up as more YANG RFCs get published
   - IEEE dot1q may have some NBC changes they want to do

Next steps:
- drive issues to closure on 1st two drafts (+ text for removing history)
- author top down reviews (should occur before formal WG LC)

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-07-27<o:p=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We reviewed and updated the IETF111 slides<o:p></o:p=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- moved discussion of the main open issue (YANG 1.1 =
vs 1.2 vs 2.0) to the end<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- added summary slides of 1st two drafts<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Reconfirmed reasons why we propose these drafts as p=
art of YANG 1.1:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; - no real harm for anyone who doesn't u=
se them (or tools that don't support them)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - imports today=
 are ambiguous<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - file names are optional (ca=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; - NBC changes in IETF models: IANA (AFI=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Next steps: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- drive issues to closure on 1st two drafts (+ text =
for removing history)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- author top down reviews (should occur before forma=
l WG LC)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">----------------------------------------------<o:p><=
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From nobody Wed Jul 28 09:47:14 2021
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:46:32 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location@ietf.org, netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, kent+ietf@watsen.net
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 12:12:09PM -0400, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Jul 17, 2021, at 7:24 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 07:17:09PM -0400, Christian Hopps wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> On Jul 17, 2021, at 6:14 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> So, when we refine the coord-accuracy and height-accuracy for an
> >>> instantiation of the grouping, what does that mean?
> >> 
> >> Itâ€™s supposed to mean the accuracy of the measurement that is recorded in the grouping. So if the coord-accuracy is .1 and the measurement is lat/long then the accuracy is within 1/10 of a decimal degree. if the measurement is in cart coordinates the accuracy would be 100cm. I donâ€™t think we need to make this anymore complex than that. Is there some text you would like to see to make that clearer?
> > 
> > The accuracy of the measurement with respect to what?  The coordinate
> > system, or the actual physical object?
> 
> I really donâ€™t see how this could be so confusing.
> 
> This grouping is a location, the accuracy applies to the contained location data. Consider asking this question about some other field like the lat/long â€” it doesnâ€™t make sense.

It's confusing because there's a type mismatch between what the actual
words on the page say and what you're describing in the email thread.

> I canâ€™t say for sure, but I think youâ€™ve discarded the obvious here and are getting pedantic about something thatâ€™s not actually confusing.
>
> Finally, as we (the IETF) are not geo location experts, we had this grouping reviewed by actual industry experts (thanked in the acknowledgment section) and they had no issue with these fields. I would be very hesitant to change what they reviewed as correct at this point based on pedantic musings.

I'm confident that the actual fields in the model can provide the needed
information.  We just need to clearly describe what information they are
conveying.

So, if we look at the

OLD:

             leaf geodetic-datum {
               type string {
                 pattern '[ -@\[-\^_-~]*';
               }
               description
                 "A geodetic-datum defining the meaning of latitude,
                  longitude and height. The default when the
                  astronomical body is 'earth' is 'wgs-84' which is
                  used by the Global Positioning System (GPS). The
                  ASCII value SHOULD have upper case converted to lower
                  case and not include control characters (i.e., values
                  32..64, and 91..126). The IANA registry further
                  restricts the value by converting all spaces (' ') to
                  dashes ('-')";
   [...]
             leaf coord-accuracy {
               type decimal64 {
                 fraction-digits 6;
               }
               description
                 "The accuracy of the latitude longitude pair for
                  ellipsoidal coordinates, or the X, Y and Z components
                  for Cartesian coordinates. When coord-accuracy is
                  specified, it overrides the geodetic-datum implied
                  accuracy.";
             }

this is indicating that the geodetic datum has some intrinsic default for
accuracy of latitude/longitude (not quoted, there is also some default for
height accuracy intrinsic to the geodetic datum).

If I were holding the pen, I might consider things like the following

NEW1:
             leaf geodetic-datum {
               type string {
                 pattern '[ -@\[-\^_-~]*';
               }
               description
                 "A geodetic-datum defining the meaning of latitude,
                  longitude and height. The default when the
                  astronomical body is 'earth' is 'wgs-84' which is
                  used by the Global Positioning System (GPS). The
                  ASCII value SHOULD have upper case converted to lower
                  case and not include control characters (i.e., values
                  32..64, and 91..126). The IANA registry further
                  restricts the value by converting all spaces (' ') to
                  dashes ('-')";
                  The specification for the geodetic-datum indicates
		  how accurately it models the astronomical body in
		  question, both for the "horizontal" latitude/longitude
		  coordinates and for height coordinates, typically as a
		  maximum deviation across the entire astronomical object.

NEW2:
             leaf coord-accuracy {
               type decimal64 {
                 fraction-digits 6;
               }
               description
                 "The accuracy of the latitude longitude pair for
                  ellipsoidal coordinates, or the X, Y and Z components
                  for Cartesian coordinates. When coord-accuracy is
                  specified, it overrides the geodetic-datum implied
                  accuracy.  This might be used, for example, when the
		  particular coordinates in the sibling list of locations
		  are all located in a region of the astronomical object
		  where the model used by the geodetic-datum is a
		  particularly good representation of the actual
		  astronomical object";
             }


NEW3:
             leaf coord-accuracy {
               type decimal64 {
                 fraction-digits 6;
               }
               description
                 "The accuracy of the latitude longitude pair for
                  ellipsoidal coordinates, or the X, Y and Z components
                  for Cartesian coordinates. When coord-accuracy is
                  specified, it indiates how precisely the coordinates in
		  the associated list of locations have been determined
		  with respect to the coordinate system defined by the
		  geodetic-datum.  For example, this might be uncertainty
		  due to measurement error if an experimental measurement
		  was made to determine each location.";
             }

In particular, what the actual words on the page are currently telling me
is what I think NEW2 says -- to "override" (or "refine") a given value
inherently must be of the same type as that value.  What you've told me in
this email thread is more like NEW3, and if the NEW3 sense is intended,
then we shouldn't use the word "override".

-Ben


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Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism
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	charset=utf-8

WG,

Regarding yesterday=E2=80=99s <system> datastore presentation, there =
seemed to be support for "Option #2=E2=80=9D, which is to have <system> =
merge into <intended>.

It was noted that this then would mean that client-validation of =
<running> would necessitate understanding how the merge works, to expand =
templates, resolve leafrefs, etc.

My thoughts are, so?  =20

Firstly, a client that doesn=E2=80=99t understand that there may be some =
<system> defined configuration will, for the most part, be none the =
wiser.   The client *will* discover <system> configuration in =
<operational>, but this is already the case today.  One new thing is =
that <operational> should use =E2=80=9Corigin:system=E2=80=9D for =
configuration originating from the <system> datastore.  This last point =
might surprise clients=E2=80=A6as the definition of =E2=80=9Cwith-origin=E2=
=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t state that clients must ignore any unrecognized =
=E2=80=9Corigin=E2=80=9D identities: =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8527#section-3.2.2.

Secondly, no shared object defined in <system> will be activated until =
client-supplied config references it.  But any client able to do this =
already knows how <system> merges into <intended> and is accounting for =
it.

Thoughts?

Kent


> On Jul 16, 2021, at 6:24 AM, maqiufang (A) <maqiufang1@huawei.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi, Kent,
> Please see my reply inline.
> =20
> From: Kent Watsen [mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net]=20
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2021 2:55 AM
> To: maqiufang (A) <maqiufang1@huawei.com>
> Cc: netmod@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism
> =20
> Hi Qiufang,
> =20
>             [snip]
> The question is if the server implementation prunes dangling/unused =
objects when <intended> is applied, updating <operational>.  My =
assumption is that the server will discard any object that doesn=E2=80=99t=
 actually impact the running configuration of the system (i.e., values =
are consumed by the underlying operating system, drivers, etc.).  =
Thusly, it is my opinion that only the referenced objects are applied.  =
Hence why, to answer your last question, I wrote that these =
configurations (manufacturer-defined objects) are not applied =
immediately but only after they are referenced.  Makes sense?
> [Qiufang Ma] Yes, try to sum up our discussion about the categories of =
the system configuration:
> =C2=B7         Physical-resource-dependent--> whether this sort of =
system configuration exists in <system> dependents on if the physical =
resource is present(e.g., physical interface).
> =C2=B7         Physical-resource-independent-->which is provided by =
the device system
> o   Further classification from the perspective of =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=
=9D time(dependents on whether the system configuration impacts the =
running of the system)
> =C2=A7  Config that is applied immediately(e.g., the loopback, the =
predefined minimum length of password=E2=80=A6)
> =C2=A7  Config that is applied only after being referenced by other =
configs(e.g, definitions for applications ftp/tftp=E2=80=A6)
> o   Further classification from the perspective of generation time
> =C2=A7  Config that is generated unconditionally at each boot =
time(e.g, loopback, predefined minimum length of password, ftp/tftp=E2=80=A6=
)
> =C2=A7  Config that is generated conditionally during the device =
running(e.g., system-generated local-port and remote-port for a new =
established BGP connection)
> =20
> Keep in mind that what is described above is just one aspect of what =
can be in <system>.  In addition to defining reference-able objects, =
<system> can also define/apply configuration immediately (e.g., the =
loopback interface).  That is, configuration not does not have to be =
referenced in order to become activated.
> [Qiufang Ma] Noted.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Note that, <running> by itself would not pass validation, due to =
missing leafrefs.  Thankfully, NMDA never says that validation runs on =
<running>.  But once <running> and <system> have been merged, to become =
<intended>, the result does pass validation.
>  [Qiufang Ma] The referenced instance must also exist for the data to =
be valid since the require-instance defaults to true if not present. Is =
this what you had in your mind? Yes, NMDA says that it is <intended> =
which is subject to validation. But I also notice that In section 5.1.3 =
of the NMDA:=E2=80=9D<running> MUST always be a valid configuration data =
tree, as defined  in Section 8.1 of [RFC7950]. =E2=80=9D So my thought =
here is that <running> should also conform to the YANG model constraints =
and that=E2=80=99s to say, a referenced system-defined data item should =
also exists in <running>.
> Therefore, if system configurations do not exist in <running>, they =
still need to be  configured in <running> manually in order for being =
referenced. In this case, the original purpose of predefining some =
system configurations for user convenience is lost. This is the reason =
why we would like to define some mechanism here to synchronize <system> =
into <running>.=20
> =20
> =20
> I see in RFC 8342 "<running> MUST always be a valid configuration data =
tree, as defined in Section 8.1 of [RFC7950]=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> But the question remains if it is possible for the system is able to =
validate <running> without, e.g., expanding templates.  There may be a =
'leafref' or =E2=80=98must=E2=80=99 expression somewhere that will fail =
because the evaluation occurs without expanding a template that supplies =
the missing parts.
> [Qiufang Ma] On condition that <running> should be valid, the =
operators will need to retrieve from the <intended> or <operational> to =
get the template-expanded configurations and then create them in the =
<running>, right? =20
> My feeling is that it loses the meaning of predefining and seems no =
differences between operator-defined configurations if operators have to =
create system configures in <running> before they use them. So I am =
beginning to think, if it=E2=80=99s possible to expand the =
system-defined template during the copying between <system> and =
<running>?
> =20
> If this draft =E2=80=9Cupdates=E2=80=9D RFC 8342 (NMDA), then it can =
supply a clarifying statement about what it means that "<running> MUST =
always be a valid configuration data tree=E2=80=9D.  Either that, or an =
Errata if it=E2=80=99s determined that the statement isn=E2=80=99t =
correct.
> =20
> You make a good technical point, but I think that we should *want* to =
avoid having to copy <system> (or <operational>) configuration into =
<running> if we can avoid it.  Agreed?
> [Qiufang Ma] tend to agree. Maybe we should try to avoid it, unless we =
have to.
> =20
> FWIW, also in RFC 8342, Section 5.1.4.:
> =20
>    <intended> is tightly coupled to <running>.  Whenever data is =
written
>    to <running>, the server MUST also immediately update and validate
>    <intended>.
> =20
>    <intended> MAY also be updated independently of <running> if the
>    effect of a configuration transformation changes, but <intended> =
MUST
>    always be a valid configuration data tree, as defined in =
Section=C2=A08.1 =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-8.1>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 of [RFC7950] =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-8.1>.
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> > I am wondering if these configuration will present in the =
<operational> (which contains all the configuration actually used by the =
device) before they=E2=80=99re referenced.
> =20
> I think that it would depend in the specific server=E2=80=99s =
behavior, regarding if *unused* predefine objects are present in =
<operational>.  Certainly the unused objects would not have to be =
present in <operational>.  If I were implementing the server, the unused =
objects would NOT be present in <operational>.
> [Qiufang Ma] Yes, if the predefined system configurations is unused, =
then I also tend to agree that they would not be present in =
<operational> but may also depend on the vendor implementation.
> =20
> =20
> Yup, this is the same conclusion is in my response above.
> [Qiufang Ma] :)
> =20
>=20
>=20
> > It would be good if we could determine if there are any other =
"resource-independent=E2=80=9D configuration categories here.
> > [Qiufang Ma] Do you think there exists conditional system =
configuration (if the preceding configurations you mentioned above is =
not)? For example, if SSH is enabled on a device, SSH-related keys are =
automatically generated. Such configurations are generated at the moment =
when a special functionality is enabled.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m unsure what you mean in general by "conditional =
configuration=E2=80=9D, but I can speak to your specific example. Though =
I must preface my comments that I imagine there are a number of ways =
servers might go about enabling `sshd`.  What follows is my personal =
view, forged by being around systems for awhile  ;)
> =20
> In general:
> =20
>          - `sshd` is NOT enabled by default.
>          - `sshd` is enabled via a configuration knob.
>          - the SSH host key is dynamically generated the first time =
`sshd` is enabled.
>          - the SSH host key itself is in <operational> (not <running>)
> =20
> This view is consistent with the first paragraph in Section 3 of the =
=E2=80=9Ckeystore=E2=80=9D draft (reproduced below):
> =20
>          3.  Support for Built-in Keys
> =20
>             In some implementations, a server may support built-in =
keys.  Built-
>             in keys MAY be set during the manufacturing process or be =
dynamically
>             generated the first time the server is booted or a =
particular service
>             (e.g., SSH) is enabled.
> =20
> As a closing thought, this model (which I stated upfront may not be =
universal) would have no presence-in or interaction-with =
<system>=E2=80=A6though, perhaps, there may be some predefined values =
for what key-algorithms and/or key-lengths to use when generating the =
SSH host key...
> [Qiufang Ma] By =E2=80=9Cconditional system configuration=E2=80=9D, I =
was meaning some of the system configurations are not generated =
immediately after the device is powered on. Instead, they are generated =
when a specific condition is satisfied during the device running(e.g., a =
functionality is enabled due to some client configurations). I am not =
sure if it really exists, maybe not, just try to explore the =
possibilities of various resource-independent system configurations.:)=20=

> =20
> To this point I agree..as does RFC 8342 (NMDA), Section 5.3.3.:
> =20
>    Sometimes, resources are controlled by the device and the
>    corresponding system-controlled data appears in (and disappears =
from)
>    <operational> dynamically.  If a system-controlled resource has
>    matching configuration in <intended> when it appears, the system =
will
>    try to apply the configuration; this causes the configuration to
>    appear in <operational> eventually (if application of the
>    configuration was successful).
> [Qiufang Ma] See above, as I summarized as the system configurations =
that is generated conditionally during the device running.
> =20
> Firstly, I again have to preface my comment that there are likely many =
ways that templating mechanisms can be defined.    But, in general, once =
a templating mechanism has been defined, then it stands to reason that =
templates could be defined either in <running> (by operators) or in =
<system> (by the manufacturer).  In one implementation I=E2=80=99m =
familiar with, the templates are objects that are =
referenced/parameterized by other parts of the configuration.  (Same as =
with the predefined objects discussion above.) =20
> =20
> To answer your questions:
> =20
> 1) Yes, it is my opinion that *activated* templates in <system> will =
be expanded and present in <intended>.
> =20
> 2) I would never suggest that the system-defined templates are present =
in <running>, though they may be referenced/parameterized by config in =
<running>.
> =20
> 3) if a config-template is configured in <running> (i.e., it is =
operator-defined) then, yes, the expanded configuration in <intended> is =
"client configuration=E2=80=9D (note, "client configuration=E2=80=9D is =
not a formal term).  That said, it seems fair to say that a template =
defined in <system> and then referenced by "client configuration=E2=80=9D =
in <running> is also expanded as "client configuration=E2=80=9D in =
<intended>.
> =20
> 4) I don=E2=80=99t not understand your last sentence, that the =
expansion of <system> templates are only present in <operational>.  =
Maybe you=E2=80=99re saying something subtle, e.g., that servers =
currently don=E2=80=99t support GET on <intended>.  But, in theory, the =
expansion of <system> templates should (IMO) be present in <intended>, =
so that they may be subject to validation.   Of course, all the =
<intended> configuration (whether originating in <running> or <system>) =
that is successfully =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D will also be present in =
<operational>.
> [Qiufang Ma] Assume that there is no <system> and this work, the =
expansion of system templates are only present in <operational>. Because =
this is compatible with system configuration definition in NMDA.
> But if system configurations are only present in <operational>, the =
predefined system configurations still need to be retrieved and created =
into <running> explicitly when being referenced. I think we=E2=80=99ve =
reached an agreement on the need for <system> to exist, and our main =
point of disagreement is whether <system> should be copied into =
<running>. Your point is that being merged into <intended> is enough to =
make sure a success validation. But my understanding is that the =
referenced system configuration data item must also exist in the =
<running> to obey the model constraints.
> =20
> Yes, I believe that you provided an accurate description of the =
difference in our opinions.  Per my earlier response, you make a valid =
technical point, my goal is to waive that interpretation to the side so =
that a simpler solution can emerge.  It would be good to get other =
opinions on list, otherwise we=E2=80=99ll take it into the meeting.
> [Qiufang Ma] OK.  Hopefully someone else would share some opinions =
here. Otherwise let=E2=80=99s take this into the IETF meeting.
> =20
> [BTW, in keeping with this thread moving from the NETCONF to the =
NETMOD mailing lists, would it make sense to move the IETF 111 =
presentation slot from NETCONF to NETMOD too?  I think it does and, =
further, it would help with scheduling (NETCONF is over, NETMOD is =
under).  Would you be okay with this?   AD Rob and the NETCONF chairs =
discussed this morning, and think it's okay, but would still need to =
confirm with the NETMOD chairs.]
> [Qiufang Ma] I am happy with the proposal, if it=E2=80=99s also okay =
for NETMOD chairs:-). I have sent an email to the NETMOD chairs to =
request to move this presentation slot from NETCONF to NETMOD.
> A new version of the draft will also be submitted to NETMOD when the =
draft-submitting window reopens.
>=20
>=20
>  <big snip>
> > I=E2=80=99m beginning to think that:
> > =C2=B7         auto-copying into <running> is likely never a good =
idea, because it violates the definition of <running>
> > [Qiufang Ma] I am quite aware that different datastores in NMDA =
represents different views of data nodes.  And <running> represents a =
configuration datastore holding the current configuration of the device.
> > Should we consider system configuration also be part of current =
configuration of the device? =46rom my perspective, the difference =
between system configuration and  client-configuration lies only in who =
provides it.
> =20
> <running> holds the current *operator-specified* configuration of the =
device.  System-provided configuration is NOT specified by operators =
(though system-defined objects may be referenced by operator-specified =
config in <running>).   I believe that this arrangement is consistent =
with the definition of <running>.  Agreed?
> [Qiufang Ma] Yes. Actually we are not trying to violate the principles =
of NMDA and the definition of <running>.  The issue we try to resolve =
here is that system configurations cannot be used(referenced or =
overwritten) by the operators directly and need to be created into =
<running> explicitly. This actually loses the meaning of =E2=80=9Cpredefin=
ing and bringing convenience=E2=80=9D. If auto-copying is not a good =
idea, what do you think about defining an RPC operation for the =
operators to do the copy(which is also what Rob suggests at the =
meeting)?
> =20
> If we have to copy into <running>, then I think that I agree an RPC =
(<edit-config>?) would be better.
> [Qiufang Ma] =46rom my perspective, <edit-config> is feasible but not =
efficient because operators still need to retrieve =
<system>/<operational> firstly. If we could define a RPC to copy the =
entire <system> into <running>, it seems more convenient for operators. =
However, some system configurations which are not going to be referenced =
or modified may also be copied into <running>. I don't have a strong =
feeling about which one is preferred. Anyway, we need to figure out =
whether it would be fine for <running> to missing referenced system =
configurations.
> =20
> You mention =E2=80=9Coverwritten=E2=80=9D by the operators?  Why =
wouldn=E2=80=99t the operators just define their own?  For instance, if =
they don=E2=80=99t like the vendor=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cvendor-foobar=E2=80=9D=
 object, they could copy/paste/edit their own =E2=80=9Cmy-foobar=E2=80=9D =
object with the values needed, yes?
> [Qiufang Ma] Yes, defining their own would be okay. By overwriting, I =
mean sometimes the operators would like to modify the specific system =
configuration, e.g., the MTU value of a specified interface(identified =
by its name).
> If the operators want to modify the system configurations, there is no =
way but redefine them in <running>.
> =20
> =20
> Best Regards,
> Qiufang Ma
> =20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> =20
> > =C2=B7         having in <operational> doesn=E2=80=99t make sense, =
since the tweaks wouldn=E2=80=99t go thru <running> --> <intended> =
validation.
> > =20
> > I=E2=80=99m wondering if a model like below would work for everyone =
- thoughts?
> > [Qiufang Ma] <intended> represents the configuration after all =
configuration transformations to <running> have been performed, so I =
think it is only coupled to <running>.
> > Anyway, the <system> should also interacts with <operational>.  =
Agreed?
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t agree that <intended> must only be coupled to =
<running>.  Specifically, I think that it is okay (compatible with NMDA) =
to define a <system> that also impacts <intended>.   This is the only =
(IMO) sane approach, as it enables the combination <running> + <system> =
to be validated.
> [Qiufang Ma] Please see above. If <running> is OK to miss referenced =
system configuration, your proposal makes sense to me.
> =20
> Ack.
> =20
>=20
>=20
>  Best Regards,
> Qiufang Ma=20
> =20
> =20
> Kent // contributor


--Apple-Mail=_D4B9C52C-4F05-493C-8854-9B3019338292
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">WG,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Regarding =
yesterday=E2=80=99s &lt;system&gt; datastore presentation, there seemed =
to be support for "Option #2=E2=80=9D, which is to have &lt;system&gt; =
merge into &lt;intended&gt;.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It was noted that this then would mean that client-validation =
of &lt;running&gt; would necessitate understanding how the merge works, =
to expand templates, resolve leafrefs, etc.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My thoughts are, so? =
&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Firstly, a client that doesn=E2=80=99t understand that there =
may be some &lt;system&gt; defined configuration will, for the most =
part, be none the wiser. &nbsp; The client *will* discover =
&lt;system&gt; configuration in &lt;operational&gt;, but this is already =
the case today. &nbsp;One new thing is that &lt;operational&gt; should =
use =E2=80=9Corigin:system=E2=80=9D for configuration originating from =
the &lt;system&gt; datastore. &nbsp;This last point might surprise =
clients=E2=80=A6as the definition of =E2=80=9Cwith-origin=E2=80=9D =
doesn=E2=80=99t state that clients must&nbsp;ignore any unrecognized =
=E2=80=9Corigin=E2=80=9D identities: <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8527#section-3.2.2" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8527#section-3.2.2</a>=
.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Secondly, no =
shared object defined in &lt;system&gt; will be activated until =
client-supplied config references it. &nbsp;But any client able to do =
this already knows how &lt;system&gt; merges into &lt;intended&gt; and =
is accounting for it.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, =
0);" class=3D"">Thoughts?</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div>Kent</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 16, 2021, at 6:24 AM, maqiufang (A) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maqiufang1@huawei.com" =
class=3D"">maqiufang1@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">

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<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">Hi, Kent,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">Please see my reply inline.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""> Kent Watsen [<a href=3D"mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net" =
class=3D"">mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net</a>]
<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Friday, July 16, 2021 2:55 AM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b> maqiufang (A) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:maqiufang1@huawei.com" =
class=3D"">maqiufang1@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">netmod@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] system configuration sync =
mechanism<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Hi&nbsp;Qiufang,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; [snip]</span></i></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">The =
question is if the server implementation prunes dangling/unused objects =
when &lt;intended&gt; is applied, updating &lt;operational&gt;. &nbsp;My =
assumption is that the server will discard any object that doesn=E2=80=99t=
 actually impact
 the running configuration of the system (i.e., values are consumed by =
the underlying operating system, drivers, etc.). &nbsp;Thusly, it is my =
opinion that only the referenced objects are applied. &nbsp;Hence why, =
to answer your last question, I wrote that these configurations
 (manufacturer-defined objects) are not applied immediately but only =
after they are referenced. &nbsp;Makes sense?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] Yes, try to sum up our discussion =
about the categories of the system configuration:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if =
!supportLists]--><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore" class=3D"">=C2=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">Physical-resource-dependent--&gt; whether this sort =
of system configuration exists in &lt;system&gt; dependents on if the =
physical resource is present(e.g.,
 physical interface).</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore" class=3D"">=C2=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">Physical-resource-independent--&gt;which is =
provided by the device system</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier =
New&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore" =
class=3D"">o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">Further classification from the perspective of =
=E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D time(dependents on whether the system =
configuration impacts the running of the system)</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level3 =
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore" class=3D"">=C2=A7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" class=3D"">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">Config that is applied immediately(e.g., the =
loopback, the predefined minimum length of =
password=E2=80=A6)</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level3 =
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore" class=3D"">=C2=A7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" class=3D"">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">Config that is applied only after being referenced =
by other configs(e.g, definitions for applications =
ftp/tftp=E2=80=A6)</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier =
New&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore" =
class=3D"">o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">Further classification from the perspective of =
generation time</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level3 =
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore" class=3D"">=C2=A7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" class=3D"">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">Config that is generated unconditionally at each =
boot time(e.g, loopback, predefined minimum length of password, =
ftp/tftp=E2=80=A6)</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level3 =
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore" class=3D"">=C2=A7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" class=3D"">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">Config that is generated conditionally during the =
device running(e.g., system-generated local-port and remote-port for a =
new established BGP connection)</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:54.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Keep =
in mind that what is described above is just one aspect of what can be =
in &lt;system&gt;. &nbsp;In addition to defining reference-able objects, =
&lt;system&gt; can also define/apply configuration immediately (e.g., =
the loopback
 interface). &nbsp;That is, configuration not does not have to be =
referenced in order to become activated.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] Noted.</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">Note that, &lt;running&gt; by itself would not pass =
validation, due to missing leafrefs.&nbsp; Thankfully, NMDA never says =
that validation runs on &lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; But once &lt;running&gt; =
and &lt;system&gt; have been merged, to become &lt;intended&gt;, the =
result does pass validation.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""> [Qiufang Ma] The referenced instance must also exist for the =
data to be valid since the require-instance defaults to true if not =
present. Is this what you had in your mind? Yes, NMDA says that it is =
&lt;intended&gt; which is subject to validation. But I also notice that =
In section 5.1.3 of the NMDA:=E2=80=9D&lt;running&gt; MUST always be a =
valid configuration data tree, as defined&nbsp; in Section 8.1 of =
[RFC7950]. =E2=80=9D So my thought here is that &lt;running&gt; should =
also conform to the YANG model constraints and that=E2=80=99s to say, a =
referenced system-defined data item should also exists in =
&lt;running&gt;.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Therefore, if system configurations do not exist in =
&lt;running&gt;, they still need to be &nbsp;configured in =
&lt;running&gt; manually in order for being referenced. In this case, =
the original purpose of predefining some system configurations for user =
convenience is lost. This is the reason why we would like to define some =
mechanism here to synchronize &lt;system&gt; into &lt;running&gt;. =
</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">I =
see in RFC 8342 "&lt;running&gt; MUST always be a valid configuration =
data tree, as defined in Section 8.1 of [RFC7950]=E2=80=9D.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">But =
the question remains if it is possible for the system is able to =
validate &lt;running&gt; without, e.g., expanding templates. &nbsp;There =
may be a 'leafref' or =E2=80=98must=E2=80=99 expression somewhere that =
will fail because the evaluation
 occurs without expanding a template that supplies the missing =
parts.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] On condition that &lt;running&gt; =
should be valid, the operators will need to retrieve from the =
&lt;intended&gt; or &lt;operational&gt; to get the template-expanded
 configurations and then create them in the &lt;running&gt;, right? =
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">My feeling is that it loses the meaning of =
predefining and seems no differences between operator-defined =
configurations if operators have to create system
 configures in &lt;running&gt; before they use them. So I am beginning =
to think, if it=E2=80=99s possible to expand the system-defined template =
during the copying between &lt;system&gt; and &lt;running&gt;?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">If =
this draft =E2=80=9Cupdates=E2=80=9D RFC 8342 (NMDA), then it can supply =
a clarifying statement about what it means that
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">"&lt;running&gt; MUST always be a valid =
configuration data tree=E2=80=9D. &nbsp;Either that, or an Errata if =
it=E2=80=99s determined that the statement isn=E2=80=99t =
correct.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">You =
make a good technical point, but I think that we should *want* to avoid =
having to copy &lt;system&gt; (or &lt;operational&gt;) configuration =
into &lt;running&gt; if we can avoid it. &nbsp;Agreed?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] tend to agree. Maybe we should try to =
avoid it, unless we have to.</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">FWIW, =
also in RFC 8342, Section 5.1.4.:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;break-before: =
page;font-variant-ligatures: normal;orphans: 2;widows: 2" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;intended&gt; is tightly coupled =
to &lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; Whenever data is written<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; to &lt;running&gt;, the server MUST also =
immediately update and validate<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;intended&gt;.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;intended&gt; MAY also be updated =
independently of &lt;running&gt; if the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>=

<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; effect of a configuration transformation =
changes, but &lt;intended&gt; MUST<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; always be a valid configuration data tree, as =
defined in <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-8.1" =
class=3D"">Section&nbsp;8.1<o:p class=3D""></o:p></a></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"MsoHyperlink"><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-8.1" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; of [RFC7950]</a></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">.</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&gt; I am wondering if these configuration will present in =
the &lt;operational&gt; (which contains all the configuration actually =
used by the device) before they=E2=80=99re referenced.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" class=3D"">I =
think that it would depend in the specific server=E2=80=99s behavior, =
regarding if *unused* predefine objects are present in =
&lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; Certainly the unused objects would not have =
to be present in &lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; If I were implementing the =
server, the unused objects would NOT be present in =
&lt;operational&gt;.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] Yes, if the predefined system configurations is =
unused, then I also tend to agree that they would not be present in =
&lt;operational&gt; but may also depend on the vendor =
implementation.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Yup, =
this is the same conclusion is in my response above.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] :)</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&gt; It would be good if we could determine if there are any =
other "resource-independent=E2=80=9D configuration categories =
here.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&gt; [Qiufang Ma] Do you think there exists conditional =
system configuration (if the preceding configurations you mentioned =
above is not)? For example, if SSH is enabled on a device, SSH-related =
keys are automatically generated. Such configurations are generated at =
the moment when a special functionality is enabled.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m unsure what you mean in general by "conditional =
configuration=E2=80=9D, but I can speak to your specific example. Though =
I must preface my comments that I imagine there are a number of ways =
servers might go about enabling `sshd`.&nbsp; What follows is my =
personal view, forged by being around systems for awhile&nbsp; =
;)</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" class=3D"">In=
 general:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - `sshd` is =
NOT enabled by default.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - `sshd` is =
enabled via a configuration knob.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - the SSH =
host key is dynamically generated the first time `sshd` is =
enabled.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - the SSH =
host key itself is in &lt;operational&gt; (not =
&lt;running&gt;)</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">This view is consistent with the first paragraph in Section 3 =
of the =E2=80=9Ckeystore=E2=80=9D draft (reproduced below):</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; =
Support for Built-in Keys</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; =
In some implementations, a server may support built-in keys.&nbsp; =
Built-</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; =
in keys MAY be set during the manufacturing process or be =
dynamically</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; =
generated the first time the server is booted or a particular =
service</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; =
(e.g., SSH) is enabled.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" class=3D"">As=
 a closing thought, this model (which I stated upfront may not be =
universal) would have no presence-in or interaction-with =
&lt;system&gt;=E2=80=A6though, perhaps, there may be some predefined =
values for what key-algorithms and/or key-lengths to use when generating =
the SSH host key...</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] By =E2=80=9Cconditional system configuration=E2=80=
=9D, I was meaning some of the system configurations are not generated =
immediately after the device is powered on. Instead, they are generated =
when a specific condition is satisfied during the device running(e.g., a =
functionality is enabled due to some client configurations). I am not =
sure if it really exists, maybe not, just try to explore the =
possibilities of various resource-independent system configurations.:) =
</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">To =
this point I agree..as does RFC 8342 (NMDA), Section 5.3.3.:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;break-before: =
page;font-variant-ligatures: normal;orphans: 2;widows: 2" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Sometimes, resources are controlled =
by the device and the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; corresponding system-controlled data appears in =
(and disappears from)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;operational&gt; dynamically.&nbsp; If a =
system-controlled resource has<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; matching configuration in &lt;intended&gt; when =
it appears, the system will<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; try to apply the configuration; this causes the =
configuration to<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; appear in &lt;operational&gt; eventually (if =
application of the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; configuration was successful).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>
<pre class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] See above, as I summarized as the =
system configurations that is generated conditionally during the device =
running.</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">Firstly, I again have to preface my comment that there are =
likely many ways that templating mechanisms can be =
defined.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But, in general, once a templating mechanism =
has been defined, then it stands to reason that templates could be =
defined either in &lt;running&gt; (by operators) or in &lt;system&gt; =
(by the manufacturer).&nbsp; In one implementation I=E2=80=99m familiar =
with, the templates are objects that are referenced/parameterized by =
other parts of the configuration.&nbsp; (Same as with the predefined =
objects discussion above.)&nbsp; </span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" class=3D"">To=
 answer your questions:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" class=3D"">1)=
 Yes, it is my opinion that *activated* templates in &lt;system&gt; will =
be expanded and present in &lt;intended&gt;.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" class=3D"">2)=
 I would never suggest that the system-defined templates are present in =
&lt;running&gt;, though they may be referenced/parameterized by config =
in &lt;running&gt;.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" class=3D"">3)=
 if a config-template is configured in &lt;running&gt; (i.e., it is =
operator-defined) then, yes, the expanded configuration in =
&lt;intended&gt; is "client configuration=E2=80=9D (note, "client =
configuration=E2=80=9D is not a formal term).&nbsp; That said, it seems =
fair to say that a template defined in &lt;system&gt; and then =
referenced by "client configuration=E2=80=9D in &lt;running&gt; is also =
expanded as "client configuration=E2=80=9D in =
&lt;intended&gt;.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" class=3D"">4)=
 I don=E2=80=99t not understand your last sentence, that the expansion =
of &lt;system&gt; templates are only present in =
&lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; Maybe you=E2=80=99re saying something subtle, =
e.g., that servers currently don=E2=80=99t support GET on =
&lt;intended&gt;.&nbsp; But, in theory, the expansion of &lt;system&gt; =
templates should (IMO) be present in &lt;intended&gt;, so that they may =
be subject to validation.&nbsp;&nbsp; Of course, all the =
&lt;intended&gt; configuration (whether originating in &lt;running&gt; =
or &lt;system&gt;) that is successfully =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D will =
also be present in &lt;operational&gt;.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>=

<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] Assume that there is no &lt;system&gt; and this =
work, the expansion of system templates are only present in =
&lt;operational&gt;. Because this is compatible with system =
configuration definition in NMDA.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">But if system configurations are only present in =
&lt;operational&gt;, the predefined system configurations still need to =
be retrieved and created into &lt;running&gt; explicitly when being =
referenced. I think we=E2=80=99ve reached an agreement on the need for =
&lt;system&gt; to exist, and our main point of disagreement is whether =
&lt;system&gt; should be copied into &lt;running&gt;. Your point is that =
being merged into &lt;intended&gt; is enough to make sure a success =
validation. But my understanding is that the referenced system =
configuration data item must also exist in the &lt;running&gt; to obey =
the model constraints.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Yes, =
I believe that you provided an accurate description of the difference in =
our opinions. &nbsp;Per my earlier response, you make a valid technical =
point, my goal is to waive that interpretation to the side so that
 a simpler solution can emerge. &nbsp;It would be good to get other =
opinions on list, otherwise we=E2=80=99ll take it into the meeting.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] OK. &nbsp;Hopefully someone else would =
share some opinions here. Otherwise let=E2=80=99s take this into the =
IETF meeting.</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">[BTW, =
in keeping with this thread moving from the NETCONF to the NETMOD =
mailing lists, would it make sense to move the IETF 111 presentation =
slot from NETCONF to NETMOD too? &nbsp;I think it does and, further, it =
would
 help with scheduling (NETCONF is over, NETMOD is under). &nbsp;Would =
you be okay with this? &nbsp; AD Rob and the NETCONF chairs discussed =
this morning, and think it's okay, but would still need to confirm with =
the NETMOD chairs.]<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] I am happy with the proposal, if =
it=E2=80=99s also okay for NETMOD chairs:-). I have sent an email to the =
NETMOD chairs to request to move this presentation
 slot from NETCONF to NETMOD. <o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">A new version of the draft will also be submitted =
to NETMOD when the draft-submitting window reopens.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&lt;big snip&gt;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&gt; I=E2=80=99m beginning to think that:</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&gt; =C2=B7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
auto-copying into &lt;running&gt; is likely never a good idea, because =
it violates the definition of &lt;running&gt;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&gt; [Qiufang Ma] I am quite aware that different datastores =
in NMDA represents different views of data nodes.&nbsp; And =
&lt;running&gt; represents a configuration datastore holding the current =
configuration of the device.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&gt; Should we consider system configuration also be part of =
current configuration of the device? =46rom my perspective, the =
difference between system configuration and&nbsp; client-configuration =
lies only in who provides it.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&lt;running&gt; holds the current *operator-specified* =
configuration of the device.&nbsp; System-provided configuration is NOT =
specified by operators (though system-defined objects may be referenced =
by operator-specified config in &lt;running&gt;).&nbsp;&nbsp; I believe =
that this arrangement is consistent with the definition of =
&lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; Agreed?</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] Yes. Actually we are not trying to violate the =
principles of NMDA and the definition of &lt;running&gt;. &nbsp;The =
issue we try to resolve here is that system configurations cannot be =
used(referenced or overwritten) by the operators directly and need to be =
created into &lt;running&gt; explicitly. This actually loses the meaning =
of =E2=80=9Cpredefining and bringing convenience=E2=80=9D. If =
auto-copying is not a good idea, what do you think about defining an RPC =
operation for the operators to do the copy(which is also what Rob =
suggests at the meeting)?</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">If =
we have to copy into &lt;running&gt;, then I think that I agree an RPC =
(&lt;edit-config&gt;?) would be better.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] =46rom my perspective, =
&lt;edit-config&gt; is feasible but not efficient because operators =
still need to retrieve &lt;system&gt;/&lt;operational&gt; firstly. If
 we could define a RPC to copy the entire &lt;system&gt; into =
&lt;running&gt;, it seems more convenient for operators. However, some =
system configurations which are not going to be referenced or modified =
may also be copied into &lt;running&gt;. I don't have a strong feeling
 about which one is preferred. Anyway, we need to figure out whether it =
would be fine for &lt;running&gt; to missing referenced system =
configurations.</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">You =
mention =E2=80=9Coverwritten=E2=80=9D by the operators? &nbsp;Why =
wouldn=E2=80=99t the operators just define their own? &nbsp;For =
instance, if they don=E2=80=99t like the vendor=E2=80=99s =
=E2=80=9Cvendor-foobar=E2=80=9D object, they could copy/paste/edit their =
own =E2=80=9Cmy-foobar=E2=80=9D
 object with the values needed, yes?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] Yes, defining their own would be okay. =
By overwriting, I mean sometimes the operators would like to modify the =
specific system configuration,
 e.g., the MTU value of a specified interface(identified by its =
name).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">If the operators want to modify the system =
configurations, there is no way but redefine them in =
&lt;running&gt;.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">Best Regards,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">Qiufang Ma<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&gt; =C2=B7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
having in &lt;operational&gt; doesn=E2=80=99t make sense, since the =
tweaks wouldn=E2=80=99t go thru &lt;running&gt; --&gt; &lt;intended&gt; =
validation.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&gt;&nbsp; </span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&gt; I=E2=80=99m wondering if a model like below would work =
for everyone - thoughts?</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&gt; [Qiufang Ma] &lt;intended&gt; represents the =
configuration after all configuration transformations to &lt;running&gt; =
have been performed, so I think it is only coupled to =
&lt;running&gt;.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&gt; Anyway, the &lt;system&gt; should also interacts with =
&lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; Agreed?</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529" class=3D"">I =
don=E2=80=99t agree that &lt;intended&gt; must only be coupled to =
&lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; Specifically, I think that it is okay (compatible =
with NMDA) to define a &lt;system&gt; that also impacts =
&lt;intended&gt;.&nbsp;&nbsp; This is the only (IMO) sane approach, as =
it enables the </span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas"=
 class=3D"">combination &lt;running&gt; + &lt;system&gt; to be =
validated.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">[Qiufang Ma] Please see above. If &lt;running&gt; is OK to =
miss referenced system configuration, your proposal makes sense to =
me.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Ack.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">&nbsp;Best Regards,</span></i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;background:white" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">Qiufang Ma </span></i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre>
</blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Kent =
// contributor<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/acvzAvCBOSF_66kawGHzsSF8oP8>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
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Hello Andy,

I will remove the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim; =E2=80=9C

Balazs

=20

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>=20
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 19:00
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; NetMod WG =
<netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=20

Hi,

=20

None of this addresses my point that a default value of "trim" is not =
appropriate.

Simply remove the default-stmt so that a missing leaf instance means =
that

no information is provided, rather than meaning defaults were added for =
basic-mode=3Dtrim.

=20

=20

Andy

=20

=20

On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 8:38 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com =
<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> > wrote:

Hi Andy, Balazs,

=20

So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are =
in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342:

=20

   Requests to retrieve nodes from <operational> always return the value

   in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified

   in the YANG module.  If no value is returned for a given node, then

   this implies that the node is not used by the device.

=20

It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data =
cannot differentiate between:

(i)                  This value is not present because it matches the =
default value specified in the YANG module, and

(ii)                This value is not present because the server has =
failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would =
have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a =
bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation).

=20

So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not =
necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the =
instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this =
data.

=20

I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf.  Another =
way of articulating this would be:

=20

leaf in-use-values {

  type boolean;

  default false;

  description

    =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the

     instance data for a given data node implies that the

    node is not used rather than implicitly taking the

     default value specified by any corresponding

    =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG =
schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

=20

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =
=E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the =
draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely =
optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

=20

Regards,
Rob

=20

=20

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >=20
Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> >
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> >; Bal=C3=A1zs =
Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com =
<mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> >
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=20

=20

=20

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com =
<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> > wrote:

Andy,

=20

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be =
sufficient.  My point being that automatically filtering out default =
values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.

=20

=20

=20

The solution is simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement.

=20

If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used =
to include defaults.

If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or =
defaults were not added.

=20

The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode.

All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs is right.

=20

=20

Andy

=20

E.g., something along these lines:

=20

leaf exclude-defaults {

  type boolean;

  default true;

  description

    =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file.

=20

      When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined =
and

      where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the =
content

      data.

=20

      When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, =
and

      may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

=20

Would this satisfy your concern?

=20

Regards,
Rob

=20

=20

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org> > =
On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> >
Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=20

Hi,

=20

The module has this object:

=20

    leaf includes-defaults {
       type enumeration {
         enum report-all {
           value 1;
           description
             "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
               any default values.";
         }
         enum trim {
           value 2;
           description
             "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
               the actual value is the default value SHOULD
               NOT be included.";
         }
         enum explicit {
           value 3;
           description
             "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
               the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
               included. However, if the actual value was set by
               a NETCONF client or other management application
               by the way of an explicit management operation the
               data node SHOULD be included.";
         }
       }
       default trim;
=20

The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but =
this

leaf is too server-centric to ignore.

=20

Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF =
server.

This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct.

=20

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also

know the YANG defaults.  The solution is incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.

The  "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called =
"unknown".

=20

=20

Andy

=20

=20


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class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello Andy,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I will remove the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim; =
=E2=80=9C<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Andy Bierman =
&lt;andy@yumaworks.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd =
19:00<br><b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
&lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
&lt;balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com&gt;; NetMod WG =
&lt;netmod@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] =
yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>None of this addresses my point that a default value =
of &quot;trim&quot; is not appropriate.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Simply remove the default-stmt so that a missing leaf =
instance means that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>no =
information is provided, rather than meaning defaults were added for =
basic-mode=3Dtrim.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Andy<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 8:38 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>Hi Andy, Balazs,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether =
default values are in use is because of this definition of operational =
in RFC 8342:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; Requests to retrieve nodes from =
&lt;operational&gt; always return the value</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; in use if the node exists, regardless of =
any default value specified</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; in the YANG module.&nbsp; If no value is =
returned for a given node, then</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; this implies that the node is not used by =
the device.</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of =
operational data cannot differentiate between:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m-2257166512806868694msolistparagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:54.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>(i)</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>This value is not present because it matches the default =
value specified in the YANG module, and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m-2257166512806868694msolistparagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:54.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>(ii)</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang=3DEN-GB>This value is =
not present because the server has failed to return it for some reason =
(e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have provided this value is down or =
not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented =
and is a missing deviation).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node =
does not necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I =
wanted the instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly =
report this data.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single =
leaf.&nbsp; Another way of articulating this would =
be:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>leaf in-use-values =
{</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp; type =
boolean;</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp; default =
false;</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp; =
description</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
instance data for a given data node implies that the</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;n=
ode is not used rather than implicitly taking the</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
default value specified by any corresponding</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=E2=
=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG =
schema.=E2=80=9D;</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>}</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =
=E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the =
draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely =
optional, i.e., without the default =
=E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>Regards,<br>Rob<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><b>From:</b> Andy Bierman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 10 July =
2021 17:41<br><b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> NetMod WG =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf<span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton =
(rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Andy,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking =
that a boolean flag might be sufficient.&nbsp; My point being that =
automatically filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the =
right thing to do.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The solution is =
simple.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Get rid of the inappropriate &quot;default =
trim&quot; statement.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>If the leaf is present then it identifies the =
basic-mode that was used to include =
defaults.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>If not then the information is either not =
known, not applicable, or defaults were not =
added.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The &quot;default&quot; statement is a bug =
because there is no default =
basic-mode.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>All of the basic-modes are in use in =
deployments and no camp has ever<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>been able to convince the others that theirs =
is right.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>E.g., something along these =
lines:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>leaf exclude-defaults =
{<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp; type boolean;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp; default true;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp; description<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9CCan be used to =
reduce the size of the content data file.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When unset or =
set to true, data nodes that have a default defined =
and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; where the =
actual value is the default value are excluded from the =
content<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;data.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When set to =
false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, =
and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; may appear in =
the content data.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>}<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Would this satisfy your =
concern?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Regards,<br>Rob<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><b>From:</b> netmod &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">netmod-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Andy Bierman<br><b>Sent:</b> 08 July 2021 18:16<br><b>To:</b> NetMod =
WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> [netmod] =
yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf<span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The module has this =
object:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;white-space:pre-wrap'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; leaf includes-defaults =
{</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type =
enumeration {</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
enum report-all {</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; value 1;</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; description</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;All data nodes SHOULD be included =
independent of</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; any default values.&quot;;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
enum trim {</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; value 2;</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; description</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NOT be included.&quot;;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
enum explicit {</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; value 3;</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; description</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD NOT be</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; included. However, if the actual value =
was set by</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a NETCONF client or other management =
application</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; by the way of an explicit management =
operation the</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; data node SHOULD be =
included.&quot;;</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; default =
trim;</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;white-space:pre-wrap'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The draft is extremely server-centric, like =
most IETF standards, but this<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>leaf is too server-centric to =
ignore.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Consider the possibility that the source of =
the file is NOT a NETCONF server.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>This data may not be known so the default of =
&quot;trim&quot; may not be correct.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that =
knows the schema will also<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>know the YANG defaults.&nbsp; The solution is =
incomplete anyway because<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default =
is not enough.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The&nbsp; &quot;report-all-tagged&quot; mode =
must be used to identify defaults.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least =
add an enum called =
&quot;unknown&quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></body>=
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/H0pRTO02uBihBpPZYLVe6I7NXCQ>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf
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Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s =
comment.

=20

Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the use-cases: =
reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other =
use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational =
datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the =
includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case =
(ii) will not.

Regards Balazs

=20

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>=20
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
<balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=20

Hi Andy, Balazs,

=20

So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are =
in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342:

=20

   Requests to retrieve nodes from <operational> always return the value

   in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified

   in the YANG module.  If no value is returned for a given node, then

   this implies that the node is not used by the device.

=20

It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data =
cannot differentiate between:

(i)               This value is not present because it matches the =
default value specified in the YANG module, and

(ii)              This value is not present because the server has =
failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would =
have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a =
bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation).

=20

So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not =
necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the =
instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this =
data.

=20

I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf.  Another =
way of articulating this would be:

=20

leaf in-use-values {

  type boolean;

  default false;

  description

    =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the

     instance data for a given data node implies that the

    node is not used rather than implicitly taking the

     default value specified by any corresponding

    =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG =
schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

=20

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =
=E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the =
draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely =
optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

=20

Regards,
Rob

=20

=20

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com> >=20
Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> >
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> >; Bal=C3=A1zs =
Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com =
<mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> >
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=20

=20

=20

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com =
<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com> > wrote:

Andy,

=20

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be =
sufficient.  My point being that automatically filtering out default =
values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.

=20

=20

=20

The solution is simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement.

=20

If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used =
to include defaults.

If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or =
defaults were not added.

=20

The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode.

All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs is right.

=20

=20

Andy

=20

E.g., something along these lines:

=20

leaf exclude-defaults {

  type boolean;

  default true;

  description

    =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file.

=20

      When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined =
and

      where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the =
content

      data.

=20

      When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, =
and

      may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

=20

Would this satisfy your concern?

=20

Regards,
Rob

=20

=20

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org> > =
On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> >
Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=20

Hi,

=20

The module has this object:

=20

    leaf includes-defaults {
       type enumeration {
         enum report-all {
           value 1;
           description
             "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
               any default values.";
         }
         enum trim {
           value 2;
           description
             "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
               the actual value is the default value SHOULD
               NOT be included.";
         }
         enum explicit {
           value 3;
           description
             "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
               the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
               included. However, if the actual value was set by
               a NETCONF client or other management application
               by the way of an explicit management operation the
               data node SHOULD be included.";
         }
       }
       default trim;
=20

The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but =
this

leaf is too server-centric to ignore.

=20

Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF =
server.

This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct.

=20

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also

know the YANG defaults.  The solution is incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.

The  "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called =
"unknown".

=20

=20

Andy

=20

=20


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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello Rob,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will =
address Andy=E2=80=99s comment.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Your =
<i>in-use-values</i> is very specific to one of the use-cases: =
reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other =
use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational =
datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the =
<i>includes-defaults=3Dreport-all</i>. Case (i) would contain the value =
case (ii) will not.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Regards =
Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
&lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd =
17:38<br><b>To:</b> Andy Bierman &lt;andy@yumaworks.com&gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs =
Lengyel &lt;balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> NetMod WG =
&lt;netmod@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [netmod] =
yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>Hi Andy, Balazs,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>So, the reason that I want a flag =
to indicate whether default values are in use is because of this =
definition of operational in RFC 8342:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; Requests to retrieve nodes from =
&lt;operational&gt; always return the value<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; in use if the node exists, regardless of =
any default value specified<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; in the YANG module.&nbsp; If no value is =
returned for a given node, then<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; this implies that the node is not used by =
the device.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of =
operational data cannot differentiate between:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:54.0pt;text-indent:-36.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-GB><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>(i)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>This value is not present because it matches the default =
value specified in the YANG module, and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:54.0pt;text-indent:-36.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-GB><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>(ii)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-GB>This =
value is not present because the server has failed to return it for some =
reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have provided this value is =
down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is not =
implemented and is a missing deviation).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>So, I think that in some cases, the =
absence of a data node does not necessarily mean that the default value =
is in effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to =
contain and correctly report this data.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>I think that this behaviour could =
be captured by a single leaf.&nbsp; Another way of articulating this =
would be:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>leaf in-use-values =
{<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp; type =
boolean;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp; default =
false;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp; =
description<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in =
the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
instance data for a given data node implies that =
the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;n=
ode is not used rather than implicitly taking =
the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
default value specified by any corresponding<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=E2=
=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG =
schema.=E2=80=9D;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>}<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure =
whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently =
specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf =
should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =
=E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>Regards,<br>Rob<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b>From:</b> =
Andy Bierman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; =
<br><b>Sent:</b> 10 July 2021 17:41<br><b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b>=
 NetMod WG &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs =
Lengyel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com">balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com</=
a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file =
include-defaults leaf<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at =
5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Andy,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking =
that a boolean flag might be sufficient.&nbsp; My point being that =
automatically filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the =
right thing to do.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The solution is =
simple.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Get rid of the =
inappropriate &quot;default trim&quot; =
statement.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>If the leaf is present =
then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to include =
defaults.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>If not then the =
information is either not known, not applicable, or defaults were not =
added.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The &quot;default&quot; =
statement is a bug because there is no default =
basic-mode.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>All of the basic-modes =
are in use in deployments and no camp has =
ever<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>been able to convince =
the others that theirs is right.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>E.g., something along these =
lines:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>leaf exclude-defaults =
{<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp; type boolean;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp; default true;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp; description<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9CCan be used to =
reduce the size of the content data file.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When unset or =
set to true, data nodes that have a default defined =
and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; where the =
actual value is the default value are excluded from the =
content<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;data.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When set to =
false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, =
and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; may appear in =
the content data.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>}<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Would this satisfy your =
concern?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Regards,<br>Rob<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><b>From:</b> netmod &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">netmod-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Andy Bierman<br><b>Sent:</b> 08 July 2021 18:16<br><b>To:</b> NetMod =
WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> [netmod] =
yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf<span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The module has this =
object:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;white-space:pre-wrap'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; leaf includes-defaults =
{</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type =
enumeration {</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
enum report-all {</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; value 1;</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; description</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;All data nodes SHOULD be included =
independent of</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; any default values.&quot;;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
enum trim {</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; value 2;</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; description</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NOT be included.&quot;;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
enum explicit {</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; value 3;</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; description</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD NOT be</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; included. However, if the actual value =
was set by</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a NETCONF client or other management =
application</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; by the way of an explicit management =
operation the</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; data node SHOULD be =
included.&quot;;</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; default =
trim;</span><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;white-space:pre-wrap'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The draft is extremely server-centric, like =
most IETF standards, but this<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>leaf is too server-centric to =
ignore.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Consider the possibility that the source of =
the file is NOT a NETCONF server.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>This data may not be known so the default of =
&quot;trim&quot; may not be correct.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that =
knows the schema will also<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>know the YANG defaults.&nbsp; The solution is =
incomplete anyway because<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default =
is not enough.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The&nbsp; &quot;report-all-tagged&quot; mode =
must be used to identify defaults.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least =
add an enum called =
&quot;unknown&quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3=
6.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>
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From nobody Wed Jul 28 15:32:49 2021
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Instance Data File Format
        Authors         : Balazs Lengyel
                          Benoit Claise
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-17.txt
	Pages           : 28
	Date            : 2021-07-28

Abstract:
   There is a need to document data defined in YANG models at design
   time, implementation time or when a live server is unavailable.  This
   document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance data,
   which follows the syntax and semantics of existing YANG models, and
   annotates it with metadata.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-17

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-17


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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Subject: [netmod] Comments on draft-ma-netconf-with-system-02
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Hello,

MAJOR:=20

The purpose of the draft (the purpose of creating a new datastore) =
should be
clearly stated. In my view:

=93There is a need to validate configuration data against data created =
by the
system.=94

=20

What is the purpose of system-configuration

Use-case A)    The system sets some values because it knows what they =
shall
be. In this case the client must not be allowed to modify these values. =
We
want to check configuration data against these values.  E.g., =
AcmeHomeRouter
has 5 interfaces called eth0, eth1, eth,2, eth3 and WAN. The client =
should
not try to add or remove interfaces to this set.

Use-case B)    The system provides initial values for something that can =
be
configured in many ways. In this case the client is free to modify the
system-defined values. E.g., an initial set of NACM rules is provided. =
In
this case any constraints based on the system data are very weak, as the
user can change the system-data itself.

=20

Use-case a) is very interesting and we actually implemented non-standard
support for it. I would welcome it in an RFC.=20

I, myself tried to address this in
https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/41

Use-case b) IMHO does not require any special support. I will just load =
the
initial configuration as a last step of a reset, upgrade etc.=20

=20

=20

Can a client remove or change a system-configuration data-node that is
automatically or manually copied to running/intended?  In use-case A) =
NO. In
use case B) yes.

Allowing some modifications, but not others is IMHO misleading and not
acceptable. Assuming that additions are OK while delete is not could be
incorrect if, the absence of some data node is important for the network
node.

=20

=20

=20

=20

Ch.2.2) =93<system> should also immediately reset to its factory default
state.=94

What is this state? It is undefined. I would rather say: <system> should =
be
reloaded or recreated.

Factory-reset may or may not remove results of an upgrade.

=20

Ch.3)

=93Update <running> with the system configuration change=93
The auto-update should either be allowed to modify running or not, but =
this
idea of allowing create but not allowing delete is wrong. You may easily
have a =93must=94 or =93when=94 statement that checks that something =
does not exist,
in which case the current proposed behavior can lead to invalid
configuration. Also, the current behavior does not state whether a =
=93case=94 in
a choice statement can be added? If you add one =93case=94 the other is =
deleted.
So, can I add a =93case=94?
=20
Ch 3.1 )
=93If there exists any conflict, the configuration in the <running> =
should
succeed.=94
It is hard to define what is a conflict. E.g. If the user deletes a data
node, but it comes back when loading system, how do we know if this is a
conflict because the user deleted it or if this is a new node that we =
can be
freely loaded into running/intended./intended. IMHO one more reason why
system-data must not be modified in running/intended; then we don=92t =
have
this conflict.=20
=20
CH.3.2) Allowing a delete and then automatically reloading it is a very =
bad
idea. It is misleading for the user that a data node is in place after a
successful delete. Also, after delete, it is reloaded; so, between a
successful delete and the reloading there is a short interval where the =
data
node is not present? Dangerous.
=20
Why don=92t we have a auto-reload after merge?  Either allow
Netconf/CLI/Restconf to modify such system data or not. A mixed approach =
is
not acceptable.=20
=20
Ch 5.3.2) So if I have a model
Container aaa {
  Presence aaa;
  Leaf bbb {}
}
Where bbb is system data, but aaa is not then  the following 2 =
operations
might lead to different results ? IMHO that is not acceptable:
-        Delete bbb
-        Replace aaa with an empty aaa container
=20

Regards Balazs

=20

P.S. I am partly new to the topic, so sorry if I repeat some questions.

=20

--=20

Balazs Lengyel                    Senior Specialist
Ericsson Hungary Ltd.=20

Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com

=20


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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hello,<o:p></o:p></p><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>MAJOR: =
<o:p></o:p></span></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal>The purpose of the draft =
(the purpose of creating a new datastore) should be clearly stated. In =
my view:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;There is a need to =
validate configuration data against data created by the =
system.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>What is the =
purpose of system-configuration<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Use-case A) =A0=A0=A0The system sets some values =
because it knows what they shall be. In this case the client must not be =
allowed to modify these values. We want to check configuration data =
against these values. =A0E.g., AcmeHomeRouter has 5 interfaces called =
eth0, eth1, eth,2, eth3 and WAN. The client should not try to add or =
remove interfaces to this set.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Use-case B)=A0 =A0=A0The system provides initial =
values for something that can be configured in many ways. In this case =
the client is free to modify the system-defined values. E.g., an initial =
set of NACM rules is provided. In this case any constraints based on the =
system data are very weak, as the user can change the system-data =
itself.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Use-case a) is very interesting and we actually =
implemented non-standard support for it. I would welcome it in an RFC. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I, myself tried to address this in =
<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/41">https://github.=
com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/41</a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Use-case b) IMHO does not require any special support. =
I will just load the initial configuration as a last step of a reset, =
upgrade etc. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Can a client =
remove or change a system-configuration data-node that is automatically =
or manually copied to running/intended? =A0In use-case A) NO. In use =
case B) yes.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Allowing some =
modifications, but not others is IMHO misleading and not acceptable. =
Assuming that additions are OK while delete is not could be incorrect =
if, the absence of some data node is important for the network =
node.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Ch.2.2) =
<i>&#8220;&lt;system&gt; should also immediately reset to its factory =
default state</i>.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>What is this =
state? It is undefined. I would rather say: &lt;system&gt; should be =
reloaded or recreated.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Factory-reset may or may not remove results of an =
upgrade.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Ch.3)<o:p></o:p></p><pre>&#8220;Update &lt;running&gt; =
with the system configuration change&#8220;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>The =
auto-update should either be allowed to modify running or not, but this =
idea of allowing create but not allowing delete is wrong. You may easily =
have a &#8220;must&#8221; or &#8220;when&#8221; statement that checks =
that something does not exist, in which case the current proposed =
behavior can lead to invalid configuration. Also, the current behavior =
does not state whether a &#8220;case&#8221; in a choice statement can be =
added? If you add one &#8220;case&#8221; the other is deleted. So, can I =
add a &#8220;case&#8221;?<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Ch 3.1 =
)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre>&#8220;If there exists any conflict, the =
configuration in the &lt;running&gt; should =
succeed.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>It is hard =
to define what is a conflict. E.g. If the user deletes a data node, but =
it comes back when loading system, how do we know if this is a conflict =
because the user deleted it or if this is a new node that we can be =
freely loaded into running/intended./intended. IMHO one more reason why =
system-data must not be modified in running/intended; then we =
don&#8217;t have this conflict. <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>CH.3.2) =
Allowing a delete and then automatically reloading it is a very bad =
idea. It is misleading for the user that a data node is in place after a =
successful delete. Also, after delete, it is reloaded; so, between a =
successful delete and the reloading there is a short interval where the =
data node is not present? Dangerous.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Why =
don&#8217;t we have a auto-reload after merge? =A0Either allow =
Netconf/CLI/Restconf to modify such system data or not. A mixed approach =
is not acceptable. <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Ch 5.3.2) So =
if I have a model<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Container =
aaa {<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>=A0 Presence =
aaa;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>=A0 Leaf bbb =
{}<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>}<o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Where bbb is =
system data, but aaa is not then=A0 the following 2 operations might =
lead to different results ? IMHO that is not =
acceptable:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Delete =
bbb<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Replace aaa =
with an empty aaa container<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal>Regards Balazs<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>P.S. I am =
partly new to the topic, so sorry if I repeat some =
questions.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-- <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Balazs =
Lengyel=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Senior =
Specialist=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0 Ericsson Hungary Ltd. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Mobile: =
+36-70-330-7909=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 email: =
Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism
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Hello,

Sorry for going back to the basics, but IMHO it is needed here. So as I =
see understand the problem:

The purpose of the draft and some principles should be clearly stated. =
In my view:=20

=20

P1) =E2=80=9CThere is a need to validate configuration data against data =
created by the system.=E2=80=9D

=20

We also have some principles:

P2) We want the running datastore to contain exactly what the operator =
has written there

=20

>From this it flows that=20

P3) the running/intended configuration MAY become invalid if the =
system-data changes.=20

But

P4) rfc8342#section-5.3.4 MUST always be valid

=20

P3 and P4 contradict each other. The only way to resolve this IMHO is to =
say that system-data changes only at upgrade. If the upgrade =
can=E2=80=99t end up with a valid configuration (after whatever =
processing) then it MUST fail.

=20

IMHO

If we move the system-data into a separate datastore that does not help. =
When I update the running configuration the validation will depend on =
system-data either in the system or in the intended datastore. Debugging =
a configuration distributed over multiple datastores is difficult.

IMHO we should just introduce a new datatype beside config=3Dtrue and =
config=3Dfalse, let=E2=80=99s call it system-data or =
read-only-config=3Dtrue.

System-data would be the same type as config=3Dtrue except it is not =
writable by Netconf/Restconf/CLI/SNMP, etc. only by the system itself.

This would allow us to define and populate system-data in both =
running/intended datastores. It would be visible in the same context.=20

System-data would be static, the operator would not be able to modify =
it, so impact on netconf/Restconf operations would be trivial.

=20

As I see it this is the same problem that we discussed in =
https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/41.

=20

I know this is a radical change, but I think using a new YANG extension =
to create a read-only config=3Dtrue datatype is a much cleaner solution. =
One which some companies have already implemented.

If I misunderstood your intent, then sorry.

=20

Regards Balazs

=20

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of maqiufang (A)
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 31., szombat 14:33
To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>; netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism

=20

Hi, Kent,=20

Thanks for helping me revive this thread, which is exactly what I want =
to do.:)

There was not a very fully discussion due to time constraints, but we =
did see some valuable points here, thank you everyone for sharing your =
views.

=20

Regarding option2,  I am still unsure how will things go if there is no =
<intended>(I think it was raised by Balazs, hopefully Balazs can also =
add something here)? Should <system> be implemented along with =
<intended>?

=20

Option 3 is still unclear, e.g., whether the <system> is copied into =
<running> automatically or manually? If auto-copy is not a good idea =
because it violates the definition of <running>, whether manual-copy is =
performed towards part or all of the system configurations created in =
<system>?

Should we copy the entire <system> into <running>? Or should there be as =
few system configuration data items in <running> as possible?

Anyway, I agree that option3 may still incur a failed validation of =
<running> when the operators reference the system configuration which is =
produced through the expansion of the system-defined templates.

If the existing mechanism(e.g., edit-config)is sufficient to define =
referenced system data item in <running>, it seems that the flow marked =
in option3 from <system> to <running> can be removed, then it looks no =
difference between option1 and option3.

=20

Best Regards,

Qiufang Ma

=20

From: netmod [ <mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org> =
mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kent Watsen
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 1:09 AM
To:  <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism

=20

WG,

=20

Regarding yesterday=E2=80=99s <system> datastore presentation, there =
seemed to be support for "Option #2=E2=80=9D, which is to have <system> =
merge into <intended>.

=20

It was noted that this then would mean that client-validation of =
<running> would necessitate understanding how the merge works, to expand =
templates, resolve leafrefs, etc.

=20

My thoughts are, so?  =20

=20

Firstly, a client that doesn=E2=80=99t understand that there may be some =
<system> defined configuration will, for the most part, be none the =
wiser.   The client *will* discover <system> configuration in =
<operational>, but this is already the case today.  One new thing is =
that <operational> should use =E2=80=9Corigin:system=E2=80=9D for =
configuration originating from the <system> datastore.  This last point =
might surprise clients=E2=80=A6as the definition of =
=E2=80=9Cwith-origin=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t state that clients must =
ignore any unrecognized =E2=80=9Corigin=E2=80=9D identities: =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8527#section-3.2.2.

=20

Secondly, no shared object defined in <system> will be activated until =
client-supplied config references it.  But any client able to do this =
already knows how <system> merges into <intended> and is accounting for =
it.

=20

Thoughts?

=20

Kent

=20

=20

On Jul 16, 2021, at 6:24 AM, maqiufang (A) <maqiufang1@huawei.com =
<mailto:maqiufang1@huawei.com> > wrote:

=20

Hi, Kent,

Please see my reply inline.

=20

From: Kent Watsen [ <mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net> =
mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net]=20
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2021 2:55 AM
To: maqiufang (A) < <mailto:maqiufang1@huawei.com> =
maqiufang1@huawei.com>
Cc:  <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism

=20

Hi Qiufang,

=20

            [snip]

The question is if the server implementation prunes dangling/unused =
objects when <intended> is applied, updating <operational>.  My =
assumption is that the server will discard any object that =
doesn=E2=80=99t actually impact the running configuration of the system =
(i.e., values are consumed by the underlying operating system, drivers, =
etc.).  Thusly, it is my opinion that only the referenced objects are =
applied.  Hence why, to answer your last question, I wrote that these =
configurations (manufacturer-defined objects) are not applied =
immediately but only after they are referenced.  Makes sense?

[Qiufang Ma] Yes, try to sum up our discussion about the categories of =
the system configuration:

*       Physical-resource-dependent--> whether this sort of system =
configuration exists in <system> dependents on if the physical resource =
is present(e.g., physical interface).

*       Physical-resource-independent-->which is provided by the device =
system

o   Further classification from the perspective of =
=E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D time(dependents on whether the system =
configuration impacts the running of the system)

*  Config that is applied immediately(e.g., the loopback, the predefined =
minimum length of password=E2=80=A6)

*  Config that is applied only after being referenced by other =
configs(e.g, definitions for applications ftp/tftp=E2=80=A6)

o   Further classification from the perspective of generation time

*  Config that is generated unconditionally at each boot time(e.g, =
loopback, predefined minimum length of password, ftp/tftp=E2=80=A6)

*  Config that is generated conditionally during the device =
running(e.g., system-generated local-port and remote-port for a new =
established BGP connection)

=20

Keep in mind that what is described above is just one aspect of what can =
be in <system>.  In addition to defining reference-able objects, =
<system> can also define/apply configuration immediately (e.g., the =
loopback interface).  That is, configuration not does not have to be =
referenced in order to become activated.

[Qiufang Ma] Noted.

=20

=20

=20
Note that, <running> by itself would not pass validation, due to missing =
leafrefs.  Thankfully, NMDA never says that validation runs on =
<running>.  But once <running> and <system> have been merged, to become =
<intended>, the result does pass validation.
 [Qiufang Ma] The referenced instance must also exist for the data to be =
valid since the require-instance defaults to true if not present. Is =
this what you had in your mind? Yes, NMDA says that it is <intended> =
which is subject to validation. But I also notice that In section 5.1.3 =
of the NMDA:=E2=80=9D<running> MUST always be a valid configuration data =
tree, as defined  in Section 8.1 of [RFC7950]. =E2=80=9D So my thought =
here is that <running> should also conform to the YANG model constraints =
and that=E2=80=99s to say, a referenced system-defined data item should =
also exists in <running>.
Therefore, if system configurations do not exist in <running>, they =
still need to be  configured in <running> manually in order for being =
referenced. In this case, the original purpose of predefining some =
system configurations for user convenience is lost. This is the reason =
why we would like to define some mechanism here to synchronize <system> =
into <running>.=20

=20

=20

I see in RFC 8342 "<running> MUST always be a valid configuration data =
tree, as defined in Section 8.1 of [RFC7950]=E2=80=9D.

=20

But the question remains if it is possible for the system is able to =
validate <running> without, e.g., expanding templates.  There may be a =
'leafref' or =E2=80=98must=E2=80=99 expression somewhere that will fail =
because the evaluation occurs without expanding a template that supplies =
the missing parts.

[Qiufang Ma] On condition that <running> should be valid, the operators =
will need to retrieve from the <intended> or <operational> to get the =
template-expanded configurations and then create them in the <running>, =
right? =20

My feeling is that it loses the meaning of predefining and seems no =
differences between operator-defined configurations if operators have to =
create system configures in <running> before they use them. So I am =
beginning to think, if it=E2=80=99s possible to expand the =
system-defined template during the copying between <system> and =
<running>?

=20

If this draft =E2=80=9Cupdates=E2=80=9D RFC 8342 (NMDA), then it can =
supply a clarifying statement about what it means that "<running> MUST =
always be a valid configuration data tree=E2=80=9D.  Either that, or an =
Errata if it=E2=80=99s determined that the statement isn=E2=80=99t =
correct.

=20

You make a good technical point, but I think that we should *want* to =
avoid having to copy <system> (or <operational>) configuration into =
<running> if we can avoid it.  Agreed?

[Qiufang Ma] tend to agree. Maybe we should try to avoid it, unless we =
have to.

=20

FWIW, also in RFC 8342, Section 5.1.4.:

=20

   <intended> is tightly coupled to <running>.  Whenever data is written
   to <running>, the server MUST also immediately update and validate
   <intended>.
=20
   <intended> MAY also be updated independently of <running> if the
   effect of a configuration transformation changes, but <intended> MUST
   always be a valid configuration data tree, as defined in Section =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-8.1>  8.1
 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-8.1>    of =
[RFC7950].

=20

=20





=20
> I am wondering if these configuration will present in the =
<operational> (which contains all the configuration actually used by the =
device) before they=E2=80=99re referenced.
=20
I think that it would depend in the specific server=E2=80=99s behavior, =
regarding if *unused* predefine objects are present in <operational>.  =
Certainly the unused objects would not have to be present in =
<operational>.  If I were implementing the server, the unused objects =
would NOT be present in <operational>.
[Qiufang Ma] Yes, if the predefined system configurations is unused, =
then I also tend to agree that they would not be present in =
<operational> but may also depend on the vendor implementation.

=20

=20

Yup, this is the same conclusion is in my response above.

[Qiufang Ma] :)

=20





> It would be good if we could determine if there are any other =
"resource-independent=E2=80=9D configuration categories here.
> [Qiufang Ma] Do you think there exists conditional system =
configuration (if the preceding configurations you mentioned above is =
not)? For example, if SSH is enabled on a device, SSH-related keys are =
automatically generated. Such configurations are generated at the moment =
when a special functionality is enabled.
=20
I=E2=80=99m unsure what you mean in general by "conditional =
configuration=E2=80=9D, but I can speak to your specific example. Though =
I must preface my comments that I imagine there are a number of ways =
servers might go about enabling `sshd`.  What follows is my personal =
view, forged by being around systems for awhile  ;)
=20
In general:
=20
         - `sshd` is NOT enabled by default.
         - `sshd` is enabled via a configuration knob.
         - the SSH host key is dynamically generated the first time =
`sshd` is enabled.
         - the SSH host key itself is in <operational> (not <running>)
=20
This view is consistent with the first paragraph in Section 3 of the =
=E2=80=9Ckeystore=E2=80=9D draft (reproduced below):
=20
         3.  Support for Built-in Keys
=20
            In some implementations, a server may support built-in keys. =
 Built-
            in keys MAY be set during the manufacturing process or be =
dynamically
            generated the first time the server is booted or a =
particular service
            (e.g., SSH) is enabled.
=20
As a closing thought, this model (which I stated upfront may not be =
universal) would have no presence-in or interaction-with =
<system>=E2=80=A6though, perhaps, there may be some predefined values =
for what key-algorithms and/or key-lengths to use when generating the =
SSH host key...
[Qiufang Ma] By =E2=80=9Cconditional system configuration=E2=80=9D, I =
was meaning some of the system configurations are not generated =
immediately after the device is powered on. Instead, they are generated =
when a specific condition is satisfied during the device running(e.g., a =
functionality is enabled due to some client configurations). I am not =
sure if it really exists, maybe not, just try to explore the =
possibilities of various resource-independent system configurations.:)=20

=20

To this point I agree..as does RFC 8342 (NMDA), Section 5.3.3.:

=20

   Sometimes, resources are controlled by the device and the
   corresponding system-controlled data appears in (and disappears from)
   <operational> dynamically.  If a system-controlled resource has
   matching configuration in <intended> when it appears, the system will
   try to apply the configuration; this causes the configuration to
   appear in <operational> eventually (if application of the
   configuration was successful).
[Qiufang Ma] See above, as I summarized as the system configurations =
that is generated conditionally during the device running.

=20
Firstly, I again have to preface my comment that there are likely many =
ways that templating mechanisms can be defined.    But, in general, once =
a templating mechanism has been defined, then it stands to reason that =
templates could be defined either in <running> (by operators) or in =
<system> (by the manufacturer).  In one implementation I=E2=80=99m =
familiar with, the templates are objects that are =
referenced/parameterized by other parts of the configuration.  (Same as =
with the predefined objects discussion above.) =20
=20
To answer your questions:
=20
1) Yes, it is my opinion that *activated* templates in <system> will be =
expanded and present in <intended>.
=20
2) I would never suggest that the system-defined templates are present =
in <running>, though they may be referenced/parameterized by config in =
<running>.
=20
3) if a config-template is configured in <running> (i.e., it is =
operator-defined) then, yes, the expanded configuration in <intended> is =
"client configuration=E2=80=9D (note, "client configuration=E2=80=9D is =
not a formal term).  That said, it seems fair to say that a template =
defined in <system> and then referenced by "client =
configuration=E2=80=9D in <running> is also expanded as "client =
configuration=E2=80=9D in <intended>.
=20
4) I don=E2=80=99t not understand your last sentence, that the expansion =
of <system> templates are only present in <operational>.  Maybe =
you=E2=80=99re saying something subtle, e.g., that servers currently =
don=E2=80=99t support GET on <intended>.  But, in theory, the expansion =
of <system> templates should (IMO) be present in <intended>, so that =
they may be subject to validation.   Of course, all the <intended> =
configuration (whether originating in <running> or <system>) that is =
successfully =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D will also be present in =
<operational>.
[Qiufang Ma] Assume that there is no <system> and this work, the =
expansion of system templates are only present in <operational>. Because =
this is compatible with system configuration definition in NMDA.
But if system configurations are only present in <operational>, the =
predefined system configurations still need to be retrieved and created =
into <running> explicitly when being referenced. I think we=E2=80=99ve =
reached an agreement on the need for <system> to exist, and our main =
point of disagreement is whether <system> should be copied into =
<running>. Your point is that being merged into <intended> is enough to =
make sure a success validation. But my understanding is that the =
referenced system configuration data item must also exist in the =
<running> to obey the model constraints.

=20

Yes, I believe that you provided an accurate description of the =
difference in our opinions.  Per my earlier response, you make a valid =
technical point, my goal is to waive that interpretation to the side so =
that a simpler solution can emerge.  It would be good to get other =
opinions on list, otherwise we=E2=80=99ll take it into the meeting.

[Qiufang Ma] OK.  Hopefully someone else would share some opinions here. =
Otherwise let=E2=80=99s take this into the IETF meeting.

=20

[BTW, in keeping with this thread moving from the NETCONF to the NETMOD =
mailing lists, would it make sense to move the IETF 111 presentation =
slot from NETCONF to NETMOD too?  I think it does and, further, it would =
help with scheduling (NETCONF is over, NETMOD is under).  Would you be =
okay with this?   AD Rob and the NETCONF chairs discussed this morning, =
and think it's okay, but would still need to confirm with the NETMOD =
chairs.]

[Qiufang Ma] I am happy with the proposal, if it=E2=80=99s also okay for =
NETMOD chairs:-). I have sent an email to the NETMOD chairs to request =
to move this presentation slot from NETCONF to NETMOD.=20

A new version of the draft will also be submitted to NETMOD when the =
draft-submitting window reopens.





 <big snip>
> I=E2=80=99m beginning to think that:
> =C2=B7         auto-copying into <running> is likely never a good =
idea, because it violates the definition of <running>
> [Qiufang Ma] I am quite aware that different datastores in NMDA =
represents different views of data nodes.  And <running> represents a =
configuration datastore holding the current configuration of the device.
> Should we consider system configuration also be part of current =
configuration of the device? From my perspective, the difference between =
system configuration and  client-configuration lies only in who provides =
it.
=20
<running> holds the current *operator-specified* configuration of the =
device.  System-provided configuration is NOT specified by operators =
(though system-defined objects may be referenced by operator-specified =
config in <running>).   I believe that this arrangement is consistent =
with the definition of <running>.  Agreed?
[Qiufang Ma] Yes. Actually we are not trying to violate the principles =
of NMDA and the definition of <running>.  The issue we try to resolve =
here is that system configurations cannot be used(referenced or =
overwritten) by the operators directly and need to be created into =
<running> explicitly. This actually loses the meaning of =
=E2=80=9Cpredefining and bringing convenience=E2=80=9D. If auto-copying =
is not a good idea, what do you think about defining an RPC operation =
for the operators to do the copy(which is also what Rob suggests at the =
meeting)?

=20

If we have to copy into <running>, then I think that I agree an RPC =
(<edit-config>?) would be better.

[Qiufang Ma] From my perspective, <edit-config> is feasible but not =
efficient because operators still need to retrieve =
<system>/<operational> firstly. If we could define a RPC to copy the =
entire <system> into <running>, it seems more convenient for operators. =
However, some system configurations which are not going to be referenced =
or modified may also be copied into <running>. I don't have a strong =
feeling about which one is preferred. Anyway, we need to figure out =
whether it would be fine for <running> to missing referenced system =
configurations.

=20

You mention =E2=80=9Coverwritten=E2=80=9D by the operators?  Why =
wouldn=E2=80=99t the operators just define their own?  For instance, if =
they don=E2=80=99t like the vendor=E2=80=99s =
=E2=80=9Cvendor-foobar=E2=80=9D object, they could copy/paste/edit their =
own =E2=80=9Cmy-foobar=E2=80=9D object with the values needed, yes?

[Qiufang Ma] Yes, defining their own would be okay. By overwriting, I =
mean sometimes the operators would like to modify the specific system =
configuration, e.g., the MTU value of a specified interface(identified =
by its name).

If the operators want to modify the system configurations, there is no =
way but redefine them in <running>.

=20

=20

Best Regards,

Qiufang Ma

=20





=20
=20
> =C2=B7         having in <operational> doesn=E2=80=99t make sense, =
since the tweaks wouldn=E2=80=99t go thru <running> --> <intended> =
validation.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m wondering if a model like below would work for everyone - =
thoughts?
> [Qiufang Ma] <intended> represents the configuration after all =
configuration transformations to <running> have been performed, so I =
think it is only coupled to <running>.
> Anyway, the <system> should also interacts with <operational>.  =
Agreed?
=20
I don=E2=80=99t agree that <intended> must only be coupled to <running>. =
 Specifically, I think that it is okay (compatible with NMDA) to define =
a <system> that also impacts <intended>.   This is the only (IMO) sane =
approach, as it enables the combination <running> + <system> to be =
validated.
[Qiufang Ma] Please see above. If <running> is OK to miss referenced =
system configuration, your proposal makes sense to me.

=20

Ack.

=20





 Best Regards,
Qiufang Ma=20

=20

=20

Kent // contributor

=20


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vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Hello,<o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Sorry for =
going back to the basics, but IMHO it is needed here. So as I see =
understand the problem:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The =
purpose of the draft and some principles should be clearly stated. In my =
view: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><i>P1) =E2=80=9CThere is a need to validate =
configuration data against data created by the =
system.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></i></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>We also have =
some principles:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>P2) We want the running datastore to contain =
exactly what the operator has written =
there<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From this it =
flows that <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>P3) the running/intended configuration MAY =
become invalid if the system-data changes. =
<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>But<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>P4) rfc8342#section-5.3.4 MUST always be =
valid<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>P3 and P4 =
contradict each other. The only way to resolve this IMHO is to say that =
system-data changes only at upgrade. If the upgrade can=E2=80=99t end up =
with a valid configuration (after whatever processing) then it MUST =
fail.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>IMHO<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>If we move =
the system-data into a separate datastore that does not help. When I =
update the running configuration the validation will depend on =
system-data either in the system or in the intended datastore. Debugging =
a configuration distributed over multiple datastores is =
difficult.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>IMHO we =
should just introduce a new datatype beside config=3Dtrue and =
config=3Dfalse, let=E2=80=99s call it system-data or =
read-only-config=3Dtrue.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>System-data =
would be the same type as config=3Dtrue except it is not writable by =
Netconf/Restconf/CLI/SNMP, etc. only by the system =
itself.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>This would =
allow us to define and populate system-data in both running/intended =
datastores. It would be visible in the same context. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>System-data =
would be static, the operator would not be able to modify it, so impact =
on netconf/Restconf operations would be trivial.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>As I see it =
this is the same problem that we discussed in <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/41">https://github.=
com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/41</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I know this =
is a radical change, but I think using a new YANG extension to create a =
read-only config=3Dtrue datatype is a much cleaner solution. One which =
some companies have already implemented.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>If I =
misunderstood your intent, then sorry.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Regards =
Balazs<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
netmod &lt;netmod-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>maqiufang =
(A)<br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 31., szombat 14:33<br><b>To:</b> =
Kent Watsen &lt;kent+ietf@watsen.net&gt;; =
netmod@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] system configuration =
sync mechanism<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Hi, Kent, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Thanks for helping me revive this thread, which is exactly what I want =
to do.:)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>There was not a very fully discussion due to time constraints, but we =
did see some valuable points here, thank you everyone for sharing your =
views.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Regarding option2, &nbsp;I am still unsure how will things go if there =
is no &lt;intended&gt;(I think it was raised by Balazs, hopefully Balazs =
can also add something here)? Should &lt;system&gt; be implemented along =
with &lt;intended&gt;?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Option 3 is still unclear, e.g., whether the &lt;system&gt; is copied =
into &lt;running&gt; automatically or manually? If auto-copy is not a =
good idea because it violates the definition of &lt;running&gt;, whether =
manual-copy is performed towards part or all of the system =
configurations created in &lt;system&gt;?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Should we copy the entire &lt;system&gt; into &lt;running&gt;? Or =
should there be as few system configuration data items in =
&lt;running&gt; as possible?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Anyway, I agree that option3 may still incur a failed validation of =
&lt;running&gt; when the operators reference the system configuration =
which is produced through the expansion of the system-defined =
templates.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>If the existing mechanism(e.g., edit-config)is sufficient to define =
referenced system data item in &lt;running&gt;, it seems that the flow =
marked in option3 from &lt;system&gt; to &lt;running&gt; can be removed, =
then it looks no difference between option1 and =
option3.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Qiufang Ma<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
netmod [</span><a href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>mailto:netmod=
-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Kent Watsen<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 29, 2021 1:09 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>netmod@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><br><b>Subjec=
t:</b> Re: [netmod] system configuration sync =
mechanism<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'>WG,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'>Regarding =
yesterday=E2=80=99s &lt;system&gt; datastore presentation, there seemed =
to be support for &quot;Option #2=E2=80=9D, which is to have =
&lt;system&gt; merge into &lt;intended&gt;.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'>It was noted that this =
then would mean that client-validation of &lt;running&gt; would =
necessitate understanding how the merge works, to expand templates, =
resolve leafrefs, etc.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'>My thoughts are, so? =
&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'>Firstly, a client that =
doesn=E2=80=99t understand that there may be some &lt;system&gt; defined =
configuration will, for the most part, be none the wiser. &nbsp; The =
client *will* discover &lt;system&gt; configuration in =
&lt;operational&gt;, but this is already the case today. &nbsp;One new =
thing is that &lt;operational&gt; should use =
=E2=80=9Corigin:system=E2=80=9D for configuration originating from the =
&lt;system&gt; datastore. &nbsp;This last point might surprise =
clients=E2=80=A6as the definition of =E2=80=9Cwith-origin=E2=80=9D =
doesn=E2=80=99t state that clients must&nbsp;ignore any unrecognized =
=E2=80=9Corigin=E2=80=9D identities: <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8527#section-3.2.2">http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8527#section-3.2.2</a>.<o:p></o:p></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'>Secondly, no shared =
object defined in &lt;system&gt; will be activated until client-supplied =
config references it. &nbsp;But any client able to do this already knows =
how &lt;system&gt; merges into &lt;intended&gt; and is accounting for =
it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Thoughts?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'>Kent<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'>On Jul 16, 2021, at 6:24 AM, maqiufang (A) =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:maqiufang1@huawei.com">maqiufang1@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Hi, Kent,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Please see my reply inline.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Kent Watsen [</span><a href=3D"mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>mailto:kent+i=
etf@watsen.net</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 16, 2021 2:55 AM<br><b>To:</b> maqiufang =
(A) &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:maqiufang1@huawei.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>maqiufang1@hu=
awei.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>&gt;<br><b>Cc=
:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>netmod@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><br><b>Subjec=
t:</b> Re: [netmod] system configuration sync =
mechanism</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>Hi&nbsp;Qiufang,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [snip]</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>The question is if the =
server implementation prunes dangling/unused objects when =
&lt;intended&gt; is applied, updating &lt;operational&gt;. &nbsp;My =
assumption is that the server will discard any object that =
doesn=E2=80=99t actually impact the running configuration of the system =
(i.e., values are consumed by the underlying operating system, drivers, =
etc.). &nbsp;Thusly, it is my opinion that only the referenced objects =
are applied. &nbsp;Hence why, to answer your last question, I wrote that =
these configurations (manufacturer-defined objects) are not applied =
immediately but only after they are referenced. &nbsp;Makes =
sense?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>[Qiufang Ma] Yes, try to sum up our discussion about the categories of =
the system configuration:</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Physical-resource-dependent--&gt; whether this sort of system =
configuration exists in &lt;system&gt; dependents on if the physical =
resource is present(e.g., physical =
interface).</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Physical-resource-independent--&gt;which is provided by the device =
system</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times =
New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Further classification from the perspective of =
=E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D time(dependents on whether the system =
configuration impacts the running of the =
system)</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:144.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level3 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Wingdings'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=A7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Config that is applied immediately(e.g., the loopback, the predefined =
minimum length of password=E2=80=A6)</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:144.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level3 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Wingdings'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=A7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Config that is applied only after being referenced by other =
configs(e.g, definitions for applications =
ftp/tftp=E2=80=A6)</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times =
New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Further classification from the perspective of generation =
time</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:144.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level3 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Wingdings'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=A7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Config that is generated unconditionally at each boot time(e.g, =
loopback, predefined minimum length of password, =
ftp/tftp=E2=80=A6)</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:144.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level3 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Wingdings'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=A7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Config that is generated conditionally during the device running(e.g., =
system-generated local-port and remote-port for a new established BGP =
connection)</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:90.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>Keep in mind that what is =
described above is just one aspect of what can be in &lt;system&gt;. =
&nbsp;In addition to defining reference-able objects, &lt;system&gt; can =
also define/apply configuration immediately (e.g., the loopback =
interface). &nbsp;That is, configuration not does not have to be =
referenced in order to become activated.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>[Qiufang Ma] Noted.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>Note that, =
&lt;running&gt; by itself would not pass validation, due to missing =
leafrefs.&nbsp; Thankfully, NMDA never says that validation runs on =
&lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; But once &lt;running&gt; and &lt;system&gt; have =
been merged, to become &lt;intended&gt;, the result does pass =
validation.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> =
[Qiufang Ma] The referenced instance must also exist for the data to be =
valid since the require-instance defaults to true if not present. Is =
this what you had in your mind? Yes, NMDA says that it is =
&lt;intended&gt; which is subject to validation. But I also notice that =
In section 5.1.3 of the NMDA:=E2=80=9D&lt;running&gt; MUST always be a =
valid configuration data tree, as defined&nbsp; in Section 8.1 of =
[RFC7950]. =E2=80=9D So my thought here is that &lt;running&gt; should =
also conform to the YANG model constraints and that=E2=80=99s to say, a =
referenced system-defined data item should also exists in =
&lt;running&gt;.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>T=
herefore, if system configurations do not exist in &lt;running&gt;, they =
still need to be &nbsp;configured in &lt;running&gt; manually in order =
for being referenced. In this case, the original purpose of predefining =
some system configurations for user convenience is lost. This is the =
reason why we would like to define some mechanism here to synchronize =
&lt;system&gt; into &lt;running&gt;. =
</span><o:p></o:p></pre></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>I see in RFC 8342 =
&quot;&lt;running&gt; MUST always be a valid configuration data tree, as =
defined in Section 8.1 of =
[RFC7950]=E2=80=9D.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>But the question remains =
if it is possible for the system is able to validate &lt;running&gt; =
without, e.g., expanding templates. &nbsp;There may be a 'leafref' or =
=E2=80=98must=E2=80=99 expression somewhere that will fail because the =
evaluation occurs without expanding a template that supplies the missing =
parts.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>[Qiufang Ma] On condition that &lt;running&gt; should be valid, the =
operators will need to retrieve from the &lt;intended&gt; or =
&lt;operational&gt; to get the template-expanded configurations and then =
create them in the &lt;running&gt;, right? =
&nbsp;</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>My feeling is that it loses the meaning of predefining and seems no =
differences between operator-defined configurations if operators have to =
create system configures in &lt;running&gt; before they use them. So I =
am beginning to think, if it=E2=80=99s possible to expand the =
system-defined template during the copying between &lt;system&gt; and =
&lt;running&gt;?</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>If this draft =
=E2=80=9Cupdates=E2=80=9D RFC 8342 (NMDA), then it can supply a =
clarifying statement about what it means that &quot;&lt;running&gt; MUST =
always be a valid configuration data tree=E2=80=9D. &nbsp;Either that, =
or an Errata if it=E2=80=99s determined that the statement isn=E2=80=99t =
correct.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>You make a good technical =
point, but I think that we should *want* to avoid having to copy =
&lt;system&gt; (or &lt;operational&gt;) configuration into =
&lt;running&gt; if we can avoid it. &nbsp;Agreed?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>[Qiufang Ma] tend to agree. Maybe we should try to avoid it, unless we =
have to.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>FWIW, also in RFC 8342, =
Section 5.1.4.:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;break-before: page;font-variant-ligatures: =
normal;orphans: 2;widows: 2'>&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;intended&gt; is tightly =
coupled to &lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; Whenever data is =
written<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
to &lt;running&gt;, the server MUST also immediately update and =
validate<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&lt;intended&gt;.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;intended&gt; MAY also be =
updated independently of &lt;running&gt; if the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; effect of a configuration =
transformation changes, but &lt;intended&gt; MUST<o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; always be a valid =
configuration data tree, as defined in <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-8.1">Sectio=
n&nbsp;8.1</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-8.1">&nbsp;=
&nbsp; of [RFC7950]</a>.<o:p></o:p></pre><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:72.0pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&gt; I am =
wondering if these configuration will present in the &lt;operational&gt; =
(which contains all the configuration actually used by the device) =
before they=E2=80=99re referenced.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>I think =
that it would depend in the specific server=E2=80=99s behavior, =
regarding if *unused* predefine objects are present in =
&lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; Certainly the unused objects would not have =
to be present in &lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; If I were implementing the =
server, the unused objects would NOT be present in =
&lt;operational&gt;.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>[=
Qiufang Ma] Yes, if the predefined system configurations is unused, then =
I also tend to agree that they would not be present in =
&lt;operational&gt; but may also depend on the vendor =
implementation.</span><o:p></o:p></pre></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>Yup, this is the same =
conclusion is in my response above.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>[Qiufang Ma] :)</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:72.0pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&gt; It =
would be good if we could determine if there are any other =
&quot;resource-independent=E2=80=9D configuration categories =
here.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&gt; =
[Qiufang Ma] Do you think there exists conditional system configuration =
(if the preceding configurations you mentioned above is not)? For =
example, if SSH is enabled on a device, SSH-related keys are =
automatically generated. Such configurations are generated at the moment =
when a special functionality is enabled.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>I=E2=80=99m =
unsure what you mean in general by &quot;conditional =
configuration=E2=80=9D, but I can speak to your specific example. Though =
I must preface my comments that I imagine there are a number of ways =
servers might go about enabling `sshd`.&nbsp; What follows is my =
personal view, forged by being around systems for awhile&nbsp; =
;)</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>In =
general:</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - `sshd` is NOT enabled by =
default.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - `sshd` is enabled via a =
configuration knob.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - the SSH host key is dynamically =
generated the first time `sshd` is enabled.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - the SSH host key itself is in =
&lt;operational&gt; (not &lt;running&gt;)</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>This view =
is consistent with the first paragraph in Section 3 of the =
=E2=80=9Ckeystore=E2=80=9D draft (reproduced =
below):</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; Support for Built-in =
Keys</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; In some =
implementations, a server may support built-in keys.&nbsp; =
Built-</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; in keys MAY be set =
during the manufacturing process or be =
dynamically</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; generated the first =
time the server is booted or a particular =
service</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (e.g., SSH) is =
enabled.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>As a =
closing thought, this model (which I stated upfront may not be =
universal) would have no presence-in or interaction-with =
&lt;system&gt;=E2=80=A6though, perhaps, there may be some predefined =
values for what key-algorithms and/or key-lengths to use when generating =
the SSH host key...</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>[=
Qiufang Ma] By =E2=80=9Cconditional system configuration=E2=80=9D, I was =
meaning some of the system configurations are not generated immediately =
after the device is powered on. Instead, they are generated when a =
specific condition is satisfied during the device running(e.g., a =
functionality is enabled due to some client configurations). I am not =
sure if it really exists, maybe not, just try to explore the =
possibilities of various resource-independent system configurations.:) =
</span><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>To this point I agree..as =
does RFC 8342 (NMDA), Section 5.3.3.:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;break-before: page;font-variant-ligatures: =
normal;orphans: 2;widows: 2'>&nbsp;&nbsp; Sometimes, resources are =
controlled by the device and the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; corresponding =
system-controlled data appears in (and disappears =
from)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&lt;operational&gt; dynamically.&nbsp; If a system-controlled resource =
has<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
matching configuration in &lt;intended&gt; when it appears, the system =
will<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; try =
to apply the configuration; this causes the configuration =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; appear =
in &lt;operational&gt; eventually (if application of =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
configuration was successful).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>[Qiufang Ma] See above, as I summarized as the system configurations =
that is generated conditionally during the device =
running.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></pre></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>Firstly, I =
again have to preface my comment that there are likely many ways that =
templating mechanisms can be defined.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But, in general, =
once a templating mechanism has been defined, then it stands to reason =
that templates could be defined either in &lt;running&gt; (by operators) =
or in &lt;system&gt; (by the manufacturer).&nbsp; In one implementation =
I=E2=80=99m familiar with, the templates are objects that are =
referenced/parameterized by other parts of the configuration.&nbsp; =
(Same as with the predefined objects discussion above.)&nbsp; =
</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>To answer =
your questions:</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>1) Yes, it =
is my opinion that *activated* templates in &lt;system&gt; will be =
expanded and present in &lt;intended&gt;.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>2) I would =
never suggest that the system-defined templates are present in =
&lt;running&gt;, though they may be referenced/parameterized by config =
in &lt;running&gt;.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>3) if a =
config-template is configured in &lt;running&gt; (i.e., it is =
operator-defined) then, yes, the expanded configuration in =
&lt;intended&gt; is &quot;client configuration=E2=80=9D (note, =
&quot;client configuration=E2=80=9D is not a formal term).&nbsp; That =
said, it seems fair to say that a template defined in &lt;system&gt; and =
then referenced by &quot;client configuration=E2=80=9D in =
&lt;running&gt; is also expanded as &quot;client configuration=E2=80=9D =
in &lt;intended&gt;.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>4) I =
don=E2=80=99t not understand your last sentence, that the expansion of =
&lt;system&gt; templates are only present in &lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; =
Maybe you=E2=80=99re saying something subtle, e.g., that servers =
currently don=E2=80=99t support GET on &lt;intended&gt;.&nbsp; But, in =
theory, the expansion of &lt;system&gt; templates should (IMO) be =
present in &lt;intended&gt;, so that they may be subject to =
validation.&nbsp;&nbsp; Of course, all the &lt;intended&gt; =
configuration (whether originating in &lt;running&gt; or &lt;system&gt;) =
that is successfully =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D will also be present in =
&lt;operational&gt;.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>[=
Qiufang Ma] Assume that there is no &lt;system&gt; and this work, the =
expansion of system templates are only present in &lt;operational&gt;. =
Because this is compatible with system configuration definition in =
NMDA.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>B=
ut if system configurations are only present in &lt;operational&gt;, the =
predefined system configurations still need to be retrieved and created =
into &lt;running&gt; explicitly when being referenced. I think =
we=E2=80=99ve reached an agreement on the need for &lt;system&gt; to =
exist, and our main point of disagreement is whether &lt;system&gt; =
should be copied into &lt;running&gt;. Your point is that being merged =
into &lt;intended&gt; is enough to make sure a success validation. But =
my understanding is that the referenced system configuration data item =
must also exist in the &lt;running&gt; to obey the model =
constraints.</span><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>Yes, I believe that you =
provided an accurate description of the difference in our opinions. =
&nbsp;Per my earlier response, you make a valid technical point, my goal =
is to waive that interpretation to the side so that a simpler solution =
can emerge. &nbsp;It would be good to get other opinions on list, =
otherwise we=E2=80=99ll take it into the meeting.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>[Qiufang Ma] OK. &nbsp;Hopefully someone else would share some opinions =
here. Otherwise let=E2=80=99s take this into the IETF =
meeting.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>[BTW, in keeping with =
this thread moving from the NETCONF to the NETMOD mailing lists, would =
it make sense to move the IETF 111 presentation slot from NETCONF to =
NETMOD too? &nbsp;I think it does and, further, it would help with =
scheduling (NETCONF is over, NETMOD is under). &nbsp;Would you be okay =
with this? &nbsp; AD Rob and the NETCONF chairs discussed this morning, =
and think it's okay, but would still need to confirm with the NETMOD =
chairs.]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>[Qiufang Ma] I am happy with the proposal, if it=E2=80=99s also okay =
for NETMOD chairs:-). I have sent an email to the NETMOD chairs to =
request to move this presentation slot from NETCONF to NETMOD. =
</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>A new version of the draft will also be submitted to NETMOD when the =
draft-submitting window reopens.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;&lt;bi=
g snip&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&gt; =
I=E2=80=99m beginning to think that:</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&gt; =
=C2=B7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; auto-copying into =
&lt;running&gt; is likely never a good idea, because it violates the =
definition of &lt;running&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&gt; =
[Qiufang Ma] I am quite aware that different datastores in NMDA =
represents different views of data nodes.&nbsp; And &lt;running&gt; =
represents a configuration datastore holding the current configuration =
of the device.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&gt; Should =
we consider system configuration also be part of current configuration =
of the device? From my perspective, the difference between system =
configuration and&nbsp; client-configuration lies only in who provides =
it.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&lt;running&=
gt; holds the current *operator-specified* configuration of the =
device.&nbsp; System-provided configuration is NOT specified by =
operators (though system-defined objects may be referenced by =
operator-specified config in &lt;running&gt;).&nbsp;&nbsp; I believe =
that this arrangement is consistent with the definition of =
&lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; Agreed?</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>[=
Qiufang Ma] Yes. Actually we are not trying to violate the principles of =
NMDA and the definition of &lt;running&gt;. &nbsp;The issue we try to =
resolve here is that system configurations cannot be used(referenced or =
overwritten) by the operators directly and need to be created into =
&lt;running&gt; explicitly. This actually loses the meaning of =
=E2=80=9Cpredefining and bringing convenience=E2=80=9D. If auto-copying =
is not a good idea, what do you think about defining an RPC operation =
for the operators to do the copy(which is also what Rob suggests at the =
meeting)?</span><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>If we have to copy into =
&lt;running&gt;, then I think that I agree an RPC (&lt;edit-config&gt;?) =
would be better.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>[Qiufang Ma] From my perspective, &lt;edit-config&gt; is feasible but =
not efficient because operators still need to retrieve =
&lt;system&gt;/&lt;operational&gt; firstly. If we could define a RPC to =
copy the entire &lt;system&gt; into &lt;running&gt;, it seems more =
convenient for operators. However, some system configurations which are =
not going to be referenced or modified may also be copied into =
&lt;running&gt;. I don't have a strong feeling about which one is =
preferred. Anyway, we need to figure out whether it would be fine for =
&lt;running&gt; to missing referenced system =
configurations.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>You mention =
=E2=80=9Coverwritten=E2=80=9D by the operators? &nbsp;Why =
wouldn=E2=80=99t the operators just define their own? &nbsp;For =
instance, if they don=E2=80=99t like the vendor=E2=80=99s =
=E2=80=9Cvendor-foobar=E2=80=9D object, they could copy/paste/edit their =
own =E2=80=9Cmy-foobar=E2=80=9D object with the values needed, =
yes?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>[Qiufang Ma] Yes, defining their own would be okay. By overwriting, I =
mean sometimes the operators would like to modify the specific system =
configuration, e.g., the MTU value of a specified interface(identified =
by its name).</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>If the operators want to modify the system configurations, there is no =
way but redefine them in =
&lt;running&gt;.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Best Regards,</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Qiufang Ma</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:72.0pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&gt; =
=C2=B7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; having in =
&lt;operational&gt; doesn=E2=80=99t make sense, since the tweaks =
wouldn=E2=80=99t go thru &lt;running&gt; --&gt; &lt;intended&gt; =
validation.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&gt;&nbsp; =
</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&gt; =
I=E2=80=99m wondering if a model like below would work for everyone - =
thoughts?</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&gt; =
[Qiufang Ma] &lt;intended&gt; represents the configuration after all =
configuration transformations to &lt;running&gt; have been performed, so =
I think it is only coupled to =
&lt;running&gt;.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&gt; =
Anyway, the &lt;system&gt; should also interacts with =
&lt;operational&gt;.&nbsp; Agreed?</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#212529'>I =
don=E2=80=99t agree that &lt;intended&gt; must only be coupled to =
&lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; Specifically, I think that it is okay (compatible =
with NMDA) to define a &lt;system&gt; that also impacts =
&lt;intended&gt;.&nbsp;&nbsp; This is the only (IMO) sane approach, as =
it enables the </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'>combination =
&lt;running&gt; + &lt;system&gt; to be =
validated.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>[=
Qiufang Ma] Please see above. If &lt;running&gt; is OK to miss =
referenced system configuration, your proposal makes sense to =
me.</span><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>Ack.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:72.0pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;background:white'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;Best Regards,</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;background:white'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Qiufang Ma </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt'>Kent // =
contributor<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></body></ht=
ml>
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 09:53:59 -0700
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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= <balazs.lengyel=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism
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On Sat, Jul 31, 2021 at 9:26 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel=3D
40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Sorry for going back to the basics, but IMHO it is needed here. So as I
> see understand the problem:
>
> The purpose of the draft and some principles should be clearly stated. In
> my view:
>
>
>
> *P1) =E2=80=9CThere is a need to validate configuration data against data=
 created
> by the system.=E2=80=9D*
>
>
>
> We also have some principles:
>
> *P2) We want the running datastore to contain exactly what the operator
> has written there*
>
>
>
> From this it flows that
>
> *P3) the running/intended configuration MAY become invalid if the
> system-data changes. *
>
> But
>
> *P4) rfc8342#section-5.3.4 MUST always be valid*
>
>
>
> P3 and P4 contradict each other. The only way to resolve this IMHO is to
> say that system-data changes only at upgrade. If the upgrade can=E2=80=99=
t end up
> with a valid configuration (after whatever processing) then it MUST fail.
>
>
>
> IMHO
>
> If we move the system-data into a separate datastore that does not help.
> When I update the running configuration the validation will depend on
> system-data either in the system or in the intended datastore. Debugging =
a
> configuration distributed over multiple datastores is difficult.
>
> IMHO we should just introduce a new datatype beside config=3Dtrue and
> config=3Dfalse, let=E2=80=99s call it system-data or read-only-config=3Dt=
rue.
>
> System-data would be the same type as config=3Dtrue except it is not
> writable by Netconf/Restconf/CLI/SNMP, etc. only by the system itself.
>
> This would allow us to define and populate system-data in both
> running/intended datastores. It would be visible in the same context.
>
> System-data would be static, the operator would not be able to modify it,
> so impact on netconf/Restconf operations would be trivial.
>
>
>


I agree a new datastore will just add complexity without any value.
Your solution approach is better, but I think it would require a new YANG
version
to allow config node XPath to reference non-config nodes.

Another solution is to model the referenced node as config=3Dtrue, but setu=
p
automatic NACM rules so no user editing is allowed. This works well for
setting up an initial config that gets saved and not changed unless a reset
is done.

What if <intended> is what is NV-stored?  When that occurs, the config
changes from system to user config.
Routers have been saving the combined config for decades. IMO the standards
intentionally avoid discussing the conversion of a datastore to/from
NV-storage.


As I see it this is the same problem that we discussed in
> https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/41.
>
>
>
> I know this is a radical change, but I think using a new YANG extension t=
o
> create a read-only config=3Dtrue datatype is a much cleaner solution. One
> which some companies have already implemented.
>


+1

Actually, separate running and system would be a radical change, not this.
Cleaner and less disruptive.


If I misunderstood your intent, then sorry.
>
>
>
> Regards Balazs
>
>
>


Andy


> *From:* netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *maqiufang (A)
> *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 31., szombat 14:33
> *To:* Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>; netmod@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism
>
>
>
> Hi, Kent,
>
> Thanks for helping me revive this thread, which is exactly what I want to
> do.:)
>
> There was not a very fully discussion due to time constraints, but we did
> see some valuable points here, thank you everyone for sharing your views.
>
>
>
> Regarding option2,  I am still unsure how will things go if there is no
> <intended>(I think it was raised by Balazs, hopefully Balazs can also add
> something here)? Should <system> be implemented along with <intended>?
>
>
>
> Option 3 is still unclear, e.g., whether the <system> is copied into
> <running> automatically or manually? If auto-copy is not a good idea
> because it violates the definition of <running>, whether manual-copy is
> performed towards part or all of the system configurations created in
> <system>?
>
> Should we copy the entire <system> into <running>? Or should there be as
> few system configuration data items in <running> as possible?
>
> Anyway, I agree that option3 may still incur a failed validation of
> <running> when the operators reference the system configuration which is
> produced through the expansion of the system-defined templates.
>
> If the existing mechanism(e.g., edit-config)is sufficient to define
> referenced system data item in <running>, it seems that the flow marked i=
n
> option3 from <system> to <running> can be removed, then it looks no
> difference between option1 and option3.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Qiufang Ma
>
>
>
> *From:* netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org <netmod-bounces@ietf.org>]=
 *On
> Behalf Of *Kent Watsen
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 29, 2021 1:09 AM
> *To:* netmod@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism
>
>
>
> WG,
>
>
>
> Regarding yesterday=E2=80=99s <system> datastore presentation, there seem=
ed to be
> support for "Option #2=E2=80=9D, which is to have <system> merge into <in=
tended>.
>
>
>
> It was noted that this then would mean that client-validation of <running=
>
> would necessitate understanding how the merge works, to expand templates,
> resolve leafrefs, etc.
>
>
>
> My thoughts are, so?
>
>
>
> Firstly, a client that doesn=E2=80=99t understand that there may be some =
<system>
> defined configuration will, for the most part, be none the wiser.   The
> client *will* discover <system> configuration in <operational>, but this =
is
> already the case today.  One new thing is that <operational> should use
> =E2=80=9Corigin:system=E2=80=9D for configuration originating from the <s=
ystem> datastore.
> This last point might surprise clients=E2=80=A6as the definition of =E2=
=80=9Cwith-origin=E2=80=9D
> doesn=E2=80=99t state that clients must ignore any unrecognized =E2=80=9C=
origin=E2=80=9D
> identities: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8527#section-3.2.2.
>
>
>
> Secondly, no shared object defined in <system> will be activated until
> client-supplied config references it.  But any client able to do this
> already knows how <system> merges into <intended> and is accounting for i=
t.
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> Kent
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 16, 2021, at 6:24 AM, maqiufang (A) <maqiufang1@huawei.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi, Kent,
>
> Please see my reply inline.
>
>
>
> *From:* Kent Watsen [mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net <kent+ietf@watsen.net>]
> *Sent:* Friday, July 16, 2021 2:55 AM
> *To:* maqiufang (A) <maqiufang1@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* netmod@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism
>
>
>
> Hi Qiufang,
>
>
>
> *            [snip]*
>
> The question is if the server implementation prunes dangling/unused
> objects when <intended> is applied, updating <operational>.  My assumptio=
n
> is that the server will discard any object that doesn=E2=80=99t actually =
impact the
> running configuration of the system (i.e., values are consumed by the
> underlying operating system, drivers, etc.).  Thusly, it is my opinion th=
at
> only the referenced objects are applied.  Hence why, to answer your last
> question, I wrote that these configurations (manufacturer-defined objects=
)
> are not applied immediately but only after they are referenced.  Makes
> sense?
>
> *[Qiufang Ma] Yes, try to sum up our discussion about the categories of
> the system configuration:*
>
> =C2=B7       *Physical-resource-dependent--> whether this sort of system
> configuration exists in <system> dependents on if the physical resource i=
s
> present(e.g., physical interface).*
>
> =C2=B7       *Physical-resource-independent-->which is provided by the de=
vice
> system*
>
> o   *Further classification from the perspective of =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=
=80=9D
> time(dependents on whether the system configuration impacts the running o=
f
> the system)*
>
> =C2=A7  *Config that is applied immediately(e.g., the loopback, the prede=
fined
> minimum length of password=E2=80=A6)*
>
> =C2=A7  *Config that is applied only after being referenced by other
> configs(e.g, definitions for applications ftp/tftp=E2=80=A6)*
>
> o   *Further classification from the perspective of generation time*
>
> =C2=A7  *Config that is generated unconditionally at each boot time(e.g,
> loopback, predefined minimum length of password, ftp/tftp=E2=80=A6)*
>
> =C2=A7  *Config that is generated conditionally during the device
> running(e.g., system-generated local-port and remote-port for a new
> established BGP connection)*
>
>
>
> Keep in mind that what is described above is just one aspect of what can
> be in <system>.  In addition to defining reference-able objects, <system>
> can also define/apply configuration immediately (e.g., the loopback
> interface).  That is, configuration not does not have to be referenced in
> order to become activated.
>
> *[Qiufang Ma] Noted.*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Note that, <running> by itself would not pass validation, due to missing =
leafrefs.  Thankfully, NMDA never says that validation runs on <running>.  =
But once <running> and <system> have been merged, to become <intended>, the=
 result does pass validation.
>
>  [Qiufang Ma] The referenced instance must also exist for the data to be =
valid since the require-instance defaults to true if not present. Is this w=
hat you had in your mind? Yes, NMDA says that it is <intended> which is sub=
ject to validation. But I also notice that In section 5.1.3 of the NMDA:=E2=
=80=9D<running> MUST always be a valid configuration data tree, as defined =
 in Section 8.1 of [RFC7950]. =E2=80=9D So my thought here is that <running=
> should also conform to the YANG model constraints and that=E2=80=99s to s=
ay, a referenced system-defined data item should also exists in <running>.
>
> Therefore, if system configurations do not exist in <running>, they still=
 need to be  configured in <running> manually in order for being referenced=
. In this case, the original purpose of predefining some system configurati=
ons for user convenience is lost. This is the reason why we would like to d=
efine some mechanism here to synchronize <system> into <running>.
>
>
>
>
>
> I see in RFC 8342 "<running> MUST always be a valid configuration data
> tree, as defined in Section 8.1 of [RFC7950]=E2=80=9D.
>
>
>
> But the question remains if it is possible for the system is able to
> validate <running> without, e.g., expanding templates.  There may be a
> 'leafref' or =E2=80=98must=E2=80=99 expression somewhere that will fail b=
ecause the
> evaluation occurs without expanding a template that supplies the missing
> parts.
>
> *[Qiufang Ma] On condition that <running> should be valid, the operators
> will need to retrieve from the <intended> or <operational> to get the
> template-expanded configurations and then create them in the <running>,
> right?  *
>
> *My feeling is that it loses the meaning of predefining and seems no
> differences between operator-defined configurations if operators have to
> create system configures in <running> before they use them. So I am
> beginning to think, if it=E2=80=99s possible to expand the system-defined=
 template
> during the copying between <system> and <running>?*
>
>
>
> If this draft =E2=80=9Cupdates=E2=80=9D RFC 8342 (NMDA), then it can supp=
ly a clarifying
> statement about what it means that "<running> MUST always be a valid
> configuration data tree=E2=80=9D.  Either that, or an Errata if it=E2=80=
=99s determined
> that the statement isn=E2=80=99t correct.
>
>
>
> You make a good technical point, but I think that we should *want* to
> avoid having to copy <system> (or <operational>) configuration into
> <running> if we can avoid it.  Agreed?
>
> *[Qiufang Ma] tend to agree. Maybe we should try to avoid it, unless we
> have to.*
>
>
>
> FWIW, also in RFC 8342, Section 5.1.4.:
>
>
>
>    <intended> is tightly coupled to <running>.  Whenever data is written
>
>    to <running>, the server MUST also immediately update and validate
>
>    <intended>.
>
>
>
>    <intended> MAY also be updated independently of <running> if the
>
>    effect of a configuration transformation changes, but <intended> MUST
>
>    always be a valid configuration data tree, as defined in Section 8.1 <=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-8.1>
>
>    of [RFC7950] <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-8.=
1>.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I am wondering if these configuration will present in the <operational>=
 (which contains all the configuration actually used by the device) before =
they=E2=80=99re referenced.
>
>
>
> I think that it would depend in the specific server=E2=80=99s behavior, r=
egarding if *unused* predefine objects are present in <operational>.  Certa=
inly the unused objects would not have to be present in <operational>.  If =
I were implementing the server, the unused objects would NOT be present in =
<operational>.
>
> [Qiufang Ma] Yes, if the predefined system configurations is unused, then=
 I also tend to agree that they would not be present in <operational> but m=
ay also depend on the vendor implementation.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yup, this is the same conclusion is in my response above.
>
> *[Qiufang Ma] :)*
>
>
>
>
>
> > It would be good if we could determine if there are any other "resource=
-independent=E2=80=9D configuration categories here.
>
> > [Qiufang Ma] Do you think there exists conditional system configuration=
 (if the preceding configurations you mentioned above is not)? For example,=
 if SSH is enabled on a device, SSH-related keys are automatically generate=
d. Such configurations are generated at the moment when a special functiona=
lity is enabled.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m unsure what you mean in general by "conditional configuration=
=E2=80=9D, but I can speak to your specific example. Though I must preface =
my comments that I imagine there are a number of ways servers might go abou=
t enabling `sshd`.  What follows is my personal view, forged by being aroun=
d systems for awhile  ;)
>
>
>
> In general:
>
>
>
>          - `sshd` is NOT enabled by default.
>
>          - `sshd` is enabled via a configuration knob.
>
>          - the SSH host key is dynamically generated the first time `sshd=
` is enabled.
>
>          - the SSH host key itself is in <operational> (not <running>)
>
>
>
> This view is consistent with the first paragraph in Section 3 of the =E2=
=80=9Ckeystore=E2=80=9D draft (reproduced below):
>
>
>
>          3.  Support for Built-in Keys
>
>
>
>             In some implementations, a server may support built-in keys. =
 Built-
>
>             in keys MAY be set during the manufacturing process or be dyn=
amically
>
>             generated the first time the server is booted or a particular=
 service
>
>             (e.g., SSH) is enabled.
>
>
>
> As a closing thought, this model (which I stated upfront may not be unive=
rsal) would have no presence-in or interaction-with <system>=E2=80=A6though=
, perhaps, there may be some predefined values for what key-algorithms and/=
or key-lengths to use when generating the SSH host key...
>
> [Qiufang Ma] By =E2=80=9Cconditional system configuration=E2=80=9D, I was=
 meaning some of the system configurations are not generated immediately af=
ter the device is powered on. Instead, they are generated when a specific c=
ondition is satisfied during the device running(e.g., a functionality is en=
abled due to some client configurations). I am not sure if it really exists=
, maybe not, just try to explore the possibilities of various resource-inde=
pendent system configurations.:)
>
>
>
> To this point I agree..as does RFC 8342 (NMDA), Section 5.3.3.:
>
>
>
>    Sometimes, resources are controlled by the device and the
>
>    corresponding system-controlled data appears in (and disappears from)
>
>    <operational> dynamically.  If a system-controlled resource has
>
>    matching configuration in <intended> when it appears, the system will
>
>    try to apply the configuration; this causes the configuration to
>
>    appear in <operational> eventually (if application of the
>
>    configuration was successful).
>
> *[Qiufang Ma] See above, as I summarized as the system configurations tha=
t is generated conditionally during the device running.*
>
>
>
> Firstly, I again have to preface my comment that there are likely many wa=
ys that templating mechanisms can be defined.    But, in general, once a te=
mplating mechanism has been defined, then it stands to reason that template=
s could be defined either in <running> (by operators) or in <system> (by th=
e manufacturer).  In one implementation I=E2=80=99m familiar with, the temp=
lates are objects that are referenced/parameterized by other parts of the c=
onfiguration.  (Same as with the predefined objects discussion above.)
>
>
>
> To answer your questions:
>
>
>
> 1) Yes, it is my opinion that *activated* templates in <system> will be e=
xpanded and present in <intended>.
>
>
>
> 2) I would never suggest that the system-defined templates are present in=
 <running>, though they may be referenced/parameterized by config in <runni=
ng>.
>
>
>
> 3) if a config-template is configured in <running> (i.e., it is operator-=
defined) then, yes, the expanded configuration in <intended> is "client con=
figuration=E2=80=9D (note, "client configuration=E2=80=9D is not a formal t=
erm).  That said, it seems fair to say that a template defined in <system> =
and then referenced by "client configuration=E2=80=9D in <running> is also =
expanded as "client configuration=E2=80=9D in <intended>.
>
>
>
> 4) I don=E2=80=99t not understand your last sentence, that the expansion =
of <system> templates are only present in <operational>.  Maybe you=E2=80=
=99re saying something subtle, e.g., that servers currently don=E2=80=99t s=
upport GET on <intended>.  But, in theory, the expansion of <system> templa=
tes should (IMO) be present in <intended>, so that they may be subject to v=
alidation.   Of course, all the <intended> configuration (whether originati=
ng in <running> or <system>) that is successfully =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D=
 will also be present in <operational>.
>
> [Qiufang Ma] Assume that there is no <system> and this work, the expansio=
n of system templates are only present in <operational>. Because this is co=
mpatible with system configuration definition in NMDA.
>
> But if system configurations are only present in <operational>, the prede=
fined system configurations still need to be retrieved and created into <ru=
nning> explicitly when being referenced. I think we=E2=80=99ve reached an a=
greement on the need for <system> to exist, and our main point of disagreem=
ent is whether <system> should be copied into <running>. Your point is that=
 being merged into <intended> is enough to make sure a success validation. =
But my understanding is that the referenced system configuration data item =
must also exist in the <running> to obey the model constraints.
>
>
>
> Yes, I believe that you provided an accurate description of the differenc=
e
> in our opinions.  Per my earlier response, you make a valid technical
> point, my goal is to waive that interpretation to the side so that a
> simpler solution can emerge.  It would be good to get other opinions on
> list, otherwise we=E2=80=99ll take it into the meeting.
>
> *[Qiufang Ma] OK.  Hopefully someone else would share some opinions here.
> Otherwise let=E2=80=99s take this into the IETF meeting.*
>
>
>
> [BTW, in keeping with this thread moving from the NETCONF to the NETMOD
> mailing lists, would it make sense to move the IETF 111 presentation slot
> from NETCONF to NETMOD too?  I think it does and, further, it would help
> with scheduling (NETCONF is over, NETMOD is under).  Would you be okay wi=
th
> this?   AD Rob and the NETCONF chairs discussed this morning, and think
> it's okay, but would still need to confirm with the NETMOD chairs.]
>
> *[Qiufang Ma] I am happy with the proposal, if it=E2=80=99s also okay for=
 NETMOD
> chairs:-). I have sent an email to the NETMOD chairs to request to move
> this presentation slot from NETCONF to NETMOD. *
>
> *A new version of the draft will also be submitted to NETMOD when the
> draft-submitting window reopens.*
>
>
>
>  <big snip>
>
> > I=E2=80=99m beginning to think that:
>
> > =C2=B7         auto-copying into <running> is likely never a good idea,=
 because it violates the definition of <running>
>
> > [Qiufang Ma] I am quite aware that different datastores in NMDA represe=
nts different views of data nodes.  And <running> represents a configuratio=
n datastore holding the current configuration of the device.
>
> > Should we consider system configuration also be part of current configu=
ration of the device? From my perspective, the difference between system co=
nfiguration and  client-configuration lies only in who provides it.
>
>
>
> <running> holds the current *operator-specified* configuration of the dev=
ice.  System-provided configuration is NOT specified by operators (though s=
ystem-defined objects may be referenced by operator-specified config in <ru=
nning>).   I believe that this arrangement is consistent with the definitio=
n of <running>.  Agreed?
>
> [Qiufang Ma] Yes. Actually we are not trying to violate the principles of=
 NMDA and the definition of <running>.  The issue we try to resolve here is=
 that system configurations cannot be used(referenced or overwritten) by th=
e operators directly and need to be created into <running> explicitly. This=
 actually loses the meaning of =E2=80=9Cpredefining and bringing convenienc=
e=E2=80=9D. If auto-copying is not a good idea, what do you think about def=
ining an RPC operation for the operators to do the copy(which is also what =
Rob suggests at the meeting)?
>
>
>
> If we have to copy into <running>, then I think that I agree an RPC
> (<edit-config>?) would be better.
>
> *[Qiufang Ma] From my perspective, <edit-config> is feasible but not
> efficient because operators still need to retrieve <system>/<operational>
> firstly. If we could define a RPC to copy the entire <system> into
> <running>, it seems more convenient for operators. However, some system
> configurations which are not going to be referenced or modified may also =
be
> copied into <running>. I don't have a strong feeling about which one is
> preferred. Anyway, we need to figure out whether it would be fine for
> <running> to missing referenced system configurations.*
>
>
>
> You mention =E2=80=9Coverwritten=E2=80=9D by the operators?  Why wouldn=
=E2=80=99t the operators
> just define their own?  For instance, if they don=E2=80=99t like the vend=
or=E2=80=99s
> =E2=80=9Cvendor-foobar=E2=80=9D object, they could copy/paste/edit their =
own =E2=80=9Cmy-foobar=E2=80=9D
> object with the values needed, yes?
>
> *[Qiufang Ma] Yes, defining their own would be okay. By overwriting, I
> mean sometimes the operators would like to modify the specific system
> configuration, e.g., the MTU value of a specified interface(identified by
> its name).*
>
> *If the operators want to modify the system configurations, there is no
> way but redefine them in <running>.*
>
>
>
>
>
> *Best Regards,*
>
> *Qiufang Ma*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > =C2=B7         having in <operational> doesn=E2=80=99t make sense, sinc=
e the tweaks wouldn=E2=80=99t go thru <running> --> <intended> validation.
>
> >
>
> > I=E2=80=99m wondering if a model like below would work for everyone - t=
houghts?
>
> > [Qiufang Ma] <intended> represents the configuration after all configur=
ation transformations to <running> have been performed, so I think it is on=
ly coupled to <running>.
>
> > Anyway, the <system> should also interacts with <operational>.  Agreed?
>
>
>
> I don=E2=80=99t agree that <intended> must only be coupled to <running>. =
 Specifically, I think that it is okay (compatible with NMDA) to define a <=
system> that also impacts <intended>.   This is the only (IMO) sane approac=
h, as it enables the combination <running> + <system> to be validated.
>
> [Qiufang Ma] Please see above. If <running> is OK to miss referenced syst=
em configuration, your proposal makes sense to me.
>
>
>
> Ack.
>
>
>
>
>
> * Best Regards,*
>
> *Qiufang Ma *
>
>
>
>
>
> Kent // contributor
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 31, 2021 at 9:26 AM Bal=
=C3=A1zs Lengyel &lt;balazs.lengyel=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40ericsson.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org">40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overf=
low-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5460550744347827539WordSection=
1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">Hello,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sorry for going back =
to the basics, but IMHO it is needed here. So as I see understand the probl=
em:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The purpose of the draft=
 and some principles should be clearly stated. In my view: <u></u><u></u></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>=
<i>P1) =E2=80=9CThere is a need to validate configuration data against data=
 created by the system.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></i></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We also have some principles:<u></u=
><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11=
pt">P2) We want the running datastore to contain exactly what the operator =
has written there<u></u><u></u></span></i></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">From this it flows that <u></u><u></u></span></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">P3) the running=
/intended configuration MAY become invalid if the system-data changes. <u><=
/u><u></u></span></i></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">But<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">P4) rfc8342#section-5.3=
.4 MUST always be valid<u></u><u></u></span></i></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">P3 and P4 contradict each other. The only=
 way to resolve this IMHO is to say that system-data changes only at upgrad=
e. If the upgrade can=E2=80=99t end up with a valid configuration (after wh=
atever processing) then it MUST fail.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">IMHO<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">If we move the system-data into a separate datastore that does not help. =
When I update the running configuration the validation will depend on syste=
m-data either in the system or in the intended datastore. Debugging a confi=
guration distributed over multiple datastores is difficult.<u></u><u></u></=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">IMHO we should just introduce a new datatype beside conf=
ig=3Dtrue and config=3Dfalse, let=E2=80=99s call it system-data or read-onl=
y-config=3Dtrue.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">System-data would be the=
 same type as config=3Dtrue except it is not writable by Netconf/Restconf/C=
LI/SNMP, etc. only by the system itself.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">This would allow us to define and populate system-data in both running/in=
tended datastores. It would be visible in the same context. <u></u><u></u><=
/span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">System-data would be static, the operator would not be =
able to modify it, so impact on netconf/Restconf operations would be trivia=
l.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I agree a new datastore will =
just add complexity without any value.</div><div>Your solution approach is =
better, but I think it would require a new YANG version</div><div>to allow =
config node XPath to reference non-config nodes.<br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Another solution is to model the referenced node as config=3Dtrue, but s=
etup</div><div>automatic NACM rules so no user editing is allowed. This wor=
ks well for</div><div>setting up an initial config that gets saved and not =
changed unless a reset is done.</div><div><br></div><div>What if &lt;intend=
ed&gt; is what is NV-stored?=C2=A0 When that occurs, the config changes fro=
m system to user config.</div><div>Routers have been saving the combined co=
nfig for decades. IMO the standards</div><div>intentionally avoid discussin=
g the conversion of a datastore to/from NV-storage.</div><div><br></div><di=
v><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_546055074=
4347827539WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As I see it t=
his is the same problem that we discussed in <a href=3D"https://github.com/=
netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/41" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/netmod-=
wg/yang-next/issues/41</a>.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I know this is a radical change, but I think us=
ing a new YANG extension to create a read-only config=3Dtrue datatype is a =
much cleaner solution. One which some companies have already implemented.</=
span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>+1</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Actually, separate running and=C2=A0system would be a=
=C2=A0radical change, not this.</div><div>Cleaner and less disruptive.=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div=
 class=3D"gmail-m_5460550744347827539WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">If I misunderstood your intent, then sorry.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Regards Ba=
lazs<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0</span></p></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5460550744347827539Wo=
rdSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u></span></p><div><div style=3D"border-right:non=
e;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225)=
;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> netmod &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On B=
ehalf Of </b>maqiufang (A)<br><b>Sent:</b> 2021. j=C3=BAlius 31., szombat 1=
4:33<br><b>To:</b> Kent Watsen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kent%2Bietf@watsen.net=
" target=3D"_blank">kent+ietf@watsen.net</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [net=
mod] system configuration sync mechanism<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,1=
25)">Hi, Kent, <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Tha=
nks for helping me revive this thread, which is exactly what I want to do.:=
)<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">There was not a ve=
ry fully discussion due to time constraints, but we did see some valuable p=
oints here, thank you everyone for sharing your views.<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regarding option2, =C2=A0I am still unsure how will =
things go if there is no &lt;intended&gt;(I think it was raised by Balazs, =
hopefully Balazs can also add something here)? Should &lt;system&gt; be imp=
lemented along with &lt;intended&gt;?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;colo=
r:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,1=
25)">Option 3 is still unclear, e.g., whether the &lt;system&gt; is copied =
into &lt;running&gt; automatically or manually? If auto-copy is not a good =
idea because it violates the definition of &lt;running&gt;, whether manual-=
copy is performed towards part or all of the system configurations created =
in &lt;system&gt;?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">S=
hould we copy the entire &lt;system&gt; into &lt;running&gt;? Or should the=
re be as few system configuration data items in &lt;running&gt; as possible=
?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Anyway, I agree th=
at option3 may still incur a failed validation of &lt;running&gt; when the =
operators reference the system configuration which is produced through the =
expansion of the system-defined templates.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
;color:rgb(31,73,125)">If the existing mechanism(e.g., edit-config)is suffi=
cient to define referenced system data item in &lt;running&gt;, it seems th=
at the flow marked in option3 from &lt;system&gt; to &lt;running&gt; can be=
 removed, then it looks no difference between option1 and option3.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Qiufang Ma<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;col=
or:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><div style=3D"border=
-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(22=
5,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left=
:36pt"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Fro=
m:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
 netmod [</span><a href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">mailto:netm=
od-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kent Watsen<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday=
, July 29, 2021 1:09 AM<br><b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">netmod@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] system configuratio=
n sync mechanism<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">WG,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Regarding yesterday=E2=80=99s &=
lt;system&gt; datastore presentation, there seemed to be support for &quot;=
Option #2=E2=80=9D, which is to have &lt;system&gt; merge into &lt;intended=
&gt;.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36p=
t"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n-left:36pt">It was noted that this then would mean that client-validation =
of &lt;running&gt; would necessitate understanding how the merge works, to =
expand templates, resolve leafrefs, etc.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">My thoughts are, so? =
=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin-left:36pt">Firstly, a client that doesn=E2=80=99t understand=
 that there may be some &lt;system&gt; defined configuration will, for the =
most part, be none the wiser. =C2=A0 The client *will* discover &lt;system&=
gt; configuration in &lt;operational&gt;, but this is already the case toda=
y.=C2=A0 One new thing is that &lt;operational&gt; should use =E2=80=9Corig=
in:system=E2=80=9D for configuration originating from the &lt;system&gt; da=
tastore.=C2=A0 This last point might surprise clients=E2=80=A6as the defini=
tion of =E2=80=9Cwith-origin=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t state that clients mu=
st=C2=A0ignore any unrecognized =E2=80=9Corigin=E2=80=9D identities: <a hre=
f=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8527#section-3.2.2" target=3D=
"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8527#section-3.2.2</a>.<u=
></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin=
-left:36pt">Secondly, no shared object defined in &lt;system&gt; will be ac=
tivated until client-supplied config references it.=C2=A0 But any client ab=
le to do this already knows how &lt;system&gt; merges into &lt;intended&gt;=
 and is accounting for it.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"color:black">Th=
oughts?<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Kent<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;=
margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5=
pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt=
">On Jul 16, 2021, at 6:24 AM, maqiufang (A) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maqiufan=
g1@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">maqiufang1@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u=
><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31=
,73,125)">Hi, Kent,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Please see my reply inline.</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></p><div><div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Kent Watsen [</span><a href=3D"=
mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net</span></a><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">] <br><b>Sent:</=
b> Friday, July 16, 2021 2:55 AM<br><b>To:</b> maqiufang (A) &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:maqiufang1@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">maqiufang1@huawei.com</span></a>=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&gt;<br><b>Cc=
:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">netmod@ietf.org</span>=
</a><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Su=
bject:</b> Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism</span><u></u><u=
></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">Hi=
=C2=A0Qiufang,<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin=
-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [snip]</=
span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"m=
argin-left:72pt">The question is if the server implementation prunes dangli=
ng/unused objects when &lt;intended&gt; is applied, updating &lt;operationa=
l&gt;.=C2=A0 My assumption is that the server will discard any object that =
doesn=E2=80=99t actually impact the running configuration of the system (i.=
e., values are consumed by the underlying operating system, drivers, etc.).=
=C2=A0 Thusly, it is my opinion that only the referenced objects are applie=
d.=C2=A0 Hence why, to answer your last question, I wrote that these config=
urations (manufacturer-defined objects) are not applied immediately but onl=
y after they are referenced.=C2=A0 Makes sense?<u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Qiufang Ma] Yes, t=
ry to sum up our discussion about the categories of the system configuratio=
n:</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"gmail-m_5460550744347827539M=
soListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72pt"><u></u><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Symbol"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><b><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,1=
25)">Physical-resource-dependent--&gt; whether this sort of system configur=
ation exists in &lt;system&gt; dependents on if the physical resource is pr=
esent(e.g., physical interface).</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"gmail-m_5460550744347827539MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72pt"=
><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:=
7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </spa=
n></span></span><u></u><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Physical-resource-independent--&gt;whi=
ch is provided by the device system</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p><p clas=
s=3D"gmail-m_5460550744347827539MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:108p=
t"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>o<span =
style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span><=
/span><u></u><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Further classification from the perspective of =
=E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D time(dependents on whether the system configurati=
on impacts the running of the system)</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p><p cl=
ass=3D"gmail-m_5460550744347827539MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:14=
4pt"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings"><span>=C2=A7<span style=
=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></=
u><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:=
rgb(31,73,125)">Config that is applied immediately(e.g., the loopback, the =
predefined minimum length of password=E2=80=A6)</span></i></b><u></u><u></u=
></p><p class=3D"gmail-m_5460550744347827539MsoListParagraph" style=3D"marg=
in-left:144pt"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings"><span>=C2=A7<sp=
an style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0 </span></span></sp=
an><u></u><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Config that is applied only after being referenced =
by other configs(e.g, definitions for applications ftp/tftp=E2=80=A6)</span=
></i></b><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"gmail-m_5460550744347827539MsoListPa=
ragraph" style=3D"margin-left:108pt"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;Courier New&quot;"><span>o<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&q=
uot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><b><i><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Further classi=
fication from the perspective of generation time</span></i></b><u></u><u></=
u></p><p class=3D"gmail-m_5460550744347827539MsoListParagraph" style=3D"mar=
gin-left:144pt"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings"><span>=C2=A7<s=
pan style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0 </span></span></s=
pan><u></u><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Config that is generated unconditionally at each b=
oot time(e.g, loopback, predefined minimum length of password, ftp/tftp=E2=
=80=A6)</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"gmail-m_546055074434782=
7539MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:144pt"><u></u><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Wingdings"><span>=C2=A7<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><b><i><span style=3D"font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Config that is g=
enerated conditionally during the device running(e.g., system-generated loc=
al-port and remote-port for a new established BGP connection)</span></i></b=
><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:9=
0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-left:72pt">Keep in mind that what is described above is just one aspect=
 of what can be in &lt;system&gt;.=C2=A0 In addition to defining reference-=
able objects, &lt;system&gt; can also define/apply configuration immediatel=
y (e.g., the loopback interface).=C2=A0 That is, configuration not does not=
 have to be referenced in order to become activated.<u></u><u></u></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Qiufang Ma] Not=
ed.</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote s=
tyle=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><pre style=3D"margin-left:10=
8pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;col=
or:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-lef=
t:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:rgb(33,37,41)">Note that, &lt;running&gt; by itself would not pass v=
alidation, due to missing leafrefs.=C2=A0 Thankfully, NMDA never says that =
validation runs on &lt;running&gt;.=C2=A0 But once &lt;running&gt; and &lt;=
system&gt; have been merged, to become &lt;intended&gt;, the result does pa=
ss validation.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt;bac=
kground:white"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
;color:black"> [Qiufang Ma] The referenced instance must also exist for the=
 data to be valid since the require-instance defaults to true if not presen=
t. Is this what you had in your mind? Yes, NMDA says that it is &lt;intende=
d&gt; which is subject to validation. But I also notice that In section 5.1=
.3 of the NMDA:=E2=80=9D&lt;running&gt; MUST always be a valid configuratio=
n data tree, as defined=C2=A0 in Section 8.1 of [RFC7950]. =E2=80=9D So my =
thought here is that &lt;running&gt; should also conform to the YANG model =
constraints and that=E2=80=99s to say, a referenced system-defined data ite=
m should also exists in &lt;running&gt;.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin-left:72pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Therefore, if system configurations=
 do not exist in &lt;running&gt;, they still need to be =C2=A0configured in=
 &lt;running&gt; manually in order for being referenced. In this case, the =
original purpose of predefining some system configurations for user conveni=
ence is lost. This is the reason why we would like to define some mechanism=
 here to synchronize &lt;system&gt; into &lt;running&gt;. </span><u></u><u>=
</u></pre></div></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-le=
ft:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">I see in RFC 8342 &quot;&lt;running&gt; MUST a=
lways be a valid configuration data tree, as defined in Section 8.1 of [RFC=
7950]=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">But the question remains if it is possible for=
 the system is able to validate &lt;running&gt; without, e.g., expanding te=
mplates.=C2=A0 There may be a &#39;leafref&#39; or =E2=80=98must=E2=80=99 e=
xpression somewhere that will fail because the evaluation occurs without ex=
panding a template that supplies the missing parts.<u></u><u></u></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Qiufang Ma] On c=
ondition that &lt;running&gt; should be valid, the operators will need to r=
etrieve from the &lt;intended&gt; or &lt;operational&gt; to get the templat=
e-expanded configurations and then create them in the &lt;running&gt;, righ=
t? =C2=A0</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"m=
argin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">My feeling is that it loses the meaning of p=
redefining and seems no differences between operator-defined configurations=
 if operators have to create system configures in &lt;running&gt; before th=
ey use them. So I am beginning to think, if it=E2=80=99s possible to expand=
 the system-defined template during the copying between &lt;system&gt; and =
&lt;running&gt;?</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">If this draft =E2=80=9Cupdates=
=E2=80=9D RFC 8342 (NMDA), then it can supply a clarifying statement about =
what it means that &quot;&lt;running&gt; MUST always be a valid configurati=
on data tree=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Either that, or an Errata if it=E2=80=99s dete=
rmined that the statement isn=E2=80=99t correct.<u></u><u></u></p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">You make a go=
od technical point, but I think that we should *want* to avoid having to co=
py &lt;system&gt; (or &lt;operational&gt;) configuration into &lt;running&g=
t; if we can avoid it.=C2=A0 Agreed?<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Qiufang Ma] tend to agree. Mayb=
e we should try to avoid it, unless we have to.</span></i></b><u></u><u></u=
></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt"=
>FWIW, also in RFC 8342, Section <a href=3D"http://5.1.4." target=3D"_blank=
">5.1.4.</a>:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"m=
argin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><pre style=3D"margin-le=
ft:72pt;break-before:page;font-variant-ligatures:normal">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;i=
ntended&gt; is tightly coupled to &lt;running&gt;.=C2=A0 Whenever data is w=
ritten<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 to &=
lt;running&gt;, the server MUST also immediately update and validate<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;intended&gt;.=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;intended&gt; MAY also b=
e updated independently of &lt;running&gt; if the<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 effect of a configuration transforma=
tion changes, but &lt;intended&gt; MUST<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin-left:72pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 always be a valid configuration data tree, as =
defined in <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section=
-8.1" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A08.1</a><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin-left:72pt"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7=
950#section-8.1" target=3D"_blank">=C2=A0=C2=A0 of [RFC7950]</a>.<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:72pt"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><b=
lockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><pre style=3D"mar=
gin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:C=
onsolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fami=
ly:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">&gt; I am wondering if these configuration=
 will present in the &lt;operational&gt; (which contains all the configurat=
ion actually used by the device) before they=E2=80=99re referenced.</span><=
u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">I thin=
k that it would depend in the specific server=E2=80=99s behavior, regarding=
 if *unused* predefine objects are present in &lt;operational&gt;.=C2=A0 Ce=
rtainly the unused objects would not have to be present in &lt;operational&=
gt;.=C2=A0 If I were implementing the server, the unused objects would NOT =
be present in &lt;operational&gt;.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin-left:72pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">[Qiufang Ma] Yes, if the predefined syste=
m configurations is unused, then I also tend to agree that they would not b=
e present in &lt;operational&gt; but may also depend on the vendor implemen=
tation.</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">Yup, this is the same =
conclusion is in my response above.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Qiufang Ma] :)</span></i></b><u>=
</u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right=
:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:72pt"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><blockq=
uote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><pre style=3D"margin-left:1=
08pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;co=
lor:rgb(33,37,41)">&gt; It would be good if we could determine if there are=
 any other &quot;resource-independent=E2=80=9D configuration categories her=
e.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:whi=
te"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=
&gt; [Qiufang Ma] Do you think there exists conditional system configuratio=
n (if the preceding configurations you mentioned above is not)? For example=
, if SSH is enabled on a device, SSH-related keys are automatically generat=
ed. Such configurations are generated at the moment when a special function=
ality is enabled.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt=
;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:=
rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:1=
08pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;co=
lor:rgb(33,37,41)">I=E2=80=99m unsure what you mean in general by &quot;con=
ditional configuration=E2=80=9D, but I can speak to your specific example. =
Though I must preface my comments that I imagine there are a number of ways=
 servers might go about enabling `sshd`.=C2=A0 What follows is my personal =
view, forged by being around systems for awhile=C2=A0 ;)</span><u></u><u></=
u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">In general:</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0=
</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white=
"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - `sshd` is NOT enabled by=
 default.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;backgro=
und:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,3=
7,41)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - `sshd` is enabled=
 via a configuration knob.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-l=
eft:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consol=
as;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - =
the SSH host key is dynamically generated the first time `sshd` is enabled.=
</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white=
"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - the SSH host key itself =
is in &lt;operational&gt; (not &lt;running&gt;)</span><u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">This view is consistent wi=
th the first paragraph in Section 3 of the =E2=80=9Ckeystore=E2=80=9D draft=
 (reproduced below):</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:10=
8pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;col=
or:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-lef=
t:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3.=
=C2=A0 Support for Built-in Keys</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:=
Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-f=
amily:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 In some implementations, a server may support built-=
in keys.=C2=A0 Built-</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:1=
08pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;co=
lor:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
=C2=A0 in keys MAY be set during the manufacturing process or be dynamicall=
y</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:whit=
e"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 generated the=
 first time the server is booted or a particular service</span><u></u><u></=
u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 (e.g., SSH) is enabled.</span><u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">As a clos=
ing thought, this model (which I stated upfront may not be universal) would=
 have no presence-in or interaction-with &lt;system&gt;=E2=80=A6though, per=
haps, there may be some predefined values for what key-algorithms and/or ke=
y-lengths to use when generating the SSH host key...</span><u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">[Qiufang Ma] By =E2=80=
=9Cconditional system configuration=E2=80=9D, I was meaning some of the sys=
tem configurations are not generated immediately after the device is powere=
d on. Instead, they are generated when a specific condition is satisfied du=
ring the device running(e.g., a functionality is enabled due to some client=
 configurations). I am not sure if it really exists, maybe not, just try to=
 explore the possibilities of various resource-independent system configura=
tions.:) </span><u></u><u></u></pre></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">To this point I agree..as does RFC 8=
342 (NMDA), Section <a href=3D"http://5.3.3." target=3D"_blank">5.3.3.</a>:=
<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72=
pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt;break=
-before:page;font-variant-ligatures:normal">=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sometimes, resourc=
es are controlled by the device and the<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin-left:72pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 corresponding system-controlled data appears i=
n (and disappears from)<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;operational&gt; dynamically.=C2=A0 If a system-controlled =
resource has<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 matching configuration in &lt;intended&gt; when it appears, the system =
will<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 try to=
 apply the configuration; this causes the configuration to<u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 appear in &lt;operational&g=
t; eventually (if application of the<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n-left:72pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 configuration was successful).<u></u><u></u></pre=
><pre style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Qiufang Ma] See above, as I=
 summarized as the system configurations that is generated conditionally du=
ring the device running.</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></pre></div><blockquot=
e style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt=
;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:=
rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:1=
08pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;co=
lor:rgb(33,37,41)">Firstly, I again have to preface my comment that there a=
re likely many ways that templating mechanisms can be defined.=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 But, in general, once a templating mechanism has been defined, then =
it stands to reason that templates could be defined either in &lt;running&g=
t; (by operators) or in &lt;system&gt; (by the manufacturer).=C2=A0 In one =
implementation I=E2=80=99m familiar with, the templates are objects that ar=
e referenced/parameterized by other parts of the configuration.=C2=A0 (Same=
 as with the predefined objects discussion above.)=C2=A0 </span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">To answer your =
questions:</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;backgr=
ound:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,=
37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;ba=
ckground:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb=
(33,37,41)">1) Yes, it is my opinion that *activated* templates in &lt;syst=
em&gt; will be expanded and present in &lt;intended&gt;.</span><u></u><u></=
u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">2) I would neve=
r suggest that the system-defined templates are present in &lt;running&gt;,=
 though they may be referenced/parameterized by config in &lt;running&gt;.<=
/span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"=
><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:wh=
ite"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)"=
>3) if a config-template is configured in &lt;running&gt; (i.e., it is oper=
ator-defined) then, yes, the expanded configuration in &lt;intended&gt; is =
&quot;client configuration=E2=80=9D (note, &quot;client configuration=E2=80=
=9D is not a formal term).=C2=A0 That said, it seems fair to say that a tem=
plate defined in &lt;system&gt; and then referenced by &quot;client configu=
ration=E2=80=9D in &lt;running&gt; is also expanded as &quot;client configu=
ration=E2=80=9D in &lt;intended&gt;.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-f=
amily:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fo=
nt-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">4) I don=E2=80=99t not understand y=
our last sentence, that the expansion of &lt;system&gt; templates are only =
present in &lt;operational&gt;.=C2=A0 Maybe you=E2=80=99re saying something=
 subtle, e.g., that servers currently don=E2=80=99t support GET on &lt;inte=
nded&gt;.=C2=A0 But, in theory, the expansion of &lt;system&gt; templates s=
hould (IMO) be present in &lt;intended&gt;, so that they may be subject to =
validation.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Of course, all the &lt;intended&gt; configuration (=
whether originating in &lt;running&gt; or &lt;system&gt;) that is successfu=
lly =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D will also be present in &lt;operational&gt;.<=
/span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt;background:white">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">[=
Qiufang Ma] Assume that there is no &lt;system&gt; and this work, the expan=
sion of system templates are only present in &lt;operational&gt;. Because t=
his is compatible with system configuration definition in NMDA.</span><u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt;background:white"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">But if syste=
m configurations are only present in &lt;operational&gt;, the predefined sy=
stem configurations still need to be retrieved and created into &lt;running=
&gt; explicitly when being referenced. I think we=E2=80=99ve reached an agr=
eement on the need for &lt;system&gt; to exist, and our main point of disag=
reement is whether &lt;system&gt; should be copied into &lt;running&gt;. Yo=
ur point is that being merged into &lt;intended&gt; is enough to make sure =
a success validation. But my understanding is that the referenced system co=
nfiguration data item must also exist in the &lt;running&gt; to obey the mo=
del constraints.</span><u></u><u></u></pre></blockquote><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">Yes, I believe that you provi=
ded an accurate description of the difference in our opinions.=C2=A0 Per my=
 earlier response, you make a valid technical point, my goal is to waive th=
at interpretation to the side so that a simpler solution can emerge.=C2=A0 =
It would be good to get other opinions on list, otherwise we=E2=80=99ll tak=
e it into the meeting.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Qiufang Ma] OK.=C2=A0 Hopefully someone else =
would share some opinions here. Otherwise let=E2=80=99s take this into the =
IETF meeting.</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">[BTW, in keeping with this thread=
 moving from the NETCONF to the NETMOD mailing lists, would it make sense t=
o move the IETF 111 presentation slot from NETCONF to NETMOD too?=C2=A0 I t=
hink it does and, further, it would help with scheduling (NETCONF is over, =
NETMOD is under).=C2=A0 Would you be okay with this? =C2=A0 AD Rob and the =
NETCONF chairs discussed this morning, and think it&#39;s okay, but would s=
till need to confirm with the NETMOD chairs.]<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Qiufang Ma] I am happy=
 with the proposal, if it=E2=80=99s also okay for NETMOD chairs:-). I have =
sent an email to the NETMOD chairs to request to move this presentation slo=
t from NETCONF to NETMOD. </span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">A new version of the draft =
will also be submitted to NETMOD when the draft-submitting window reopens.<=
/span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:36pt"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p>=
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><pre style=3D"margin=
-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Cons=
olas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0&lt;big snip&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">&gt; I=E2=80=99m beginning to=
 think that:</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;back=
ground:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(3=
3,37,41)">&gt; =C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 auto-=
copying into &lt;running&gt; is likely never a good idea, because it violat=
es the definition of &lt;running&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-f=
amily:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">&gt; [Qiufang Ma] I am quite aware that=
 different datastores in NMDA represents different views of data nodes.=C2=
=A0 And &lt;running&gt; represents a configuration datastore holding the cu=
rrent configuration of the device.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-famil=
y:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">&gt; Should we consider system configuratio=
n also be part of current configuration of the device? From my perspective,=
 the difference between system configuration and=C2=A0 client-configuration=
 lies only in who provides it.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Co=
nsolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-famil=
y:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">&lt;running&gt; holds the current *operator=
-specified* configuration of the device.=C2=A0 System-provided configuratio=
n is NOT specified by operators (though system-defined objects may be refer=
enced by operator-specified config in &lt;running&gt;).=C2=A0=C2=A0 I belie=
ve that this arrangement is consistent with the definition of &lt;running&g=
t;.=C2=A0 Agreed?</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt;=
background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;color:black">[Qiufang Ma] Yes. Actually we are not trying to violate th=
e principles of NMDA and the definition of &lt;running&gt;.=C2=A0 The issue=
 we try to resolve here is that system configurations cannot be used(refere=
nced or overwritten) by the operators directly and need to be created into =
&lt;running&gt; explicitly. This actually loses the meaning of =E2=80=9Cpre=
defining and bringing convenience=E2=80=9D. If auto-copying is not a good i=
dea, what do you think about defining an RPC operation for the operators to=
 do the copy(which is also what Rob suggests at the meeting)?</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin-left:72pt">If we have to copy into &lt;running&gt;, then I think that =
I agree an RPC (&lt;edit-config&gt;?) would be better.<u></u><u></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Qiufang Ma] F=
rom my perspective, &lt;edit-config&gt; is feasible but not efficient becau=
se operators still need to retrieve &lt;system&gt;/&lt;operational&gt; firs=
tly. If we could define a RPC to copy the entire &lt;system&gt; into &lt;ru=
nning&gt;, it seems more convenient for operators. However, some system con=
figurations which are not going to be referenced or modified may also be co=
pied into &lt;running&gt;. I don&#39;t have a strong feeling about which on=
e is preferred. Anyway, we need to figure out whether it would be fine for =
&lt;running&gt; to missing referenced system configurations.</span></i></b>=
<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72=
pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in-left:72pt">You mention =E2=80=9Coverwritten=E2=80=9D by the operators?=
=C2=A0 Why wouldn=E2=80=99t the operators just define their own?=C2=A0 For =
instance, if they don=E2=80=99t like the vendor=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cvendor-f=
oobar=E2=80=9D object, they could copy/paste/edit their own =E2=80=9Cmy-foo=
bar=E2=80=9D object with the values needed, yes?<u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Qiufang Ma] Yes, d=
efining their own would be okay. By overwriting, I mean sometimes the opera=
tors would like to modify the specific system configuration, e.g., the MTU =
value of a specified interface(identified by its name).</span></i></b><u></=
u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span =
style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)=
">If the operators want to modify the system configurations, there is no wa=
y but redefine them in &lt;running&gt;.</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><=
/i></b><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=
<b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rg=
b(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best Regards,</span></i></b><u></=
u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><i><span =
style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)=
">Qiufang Ma</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:72pt"><br=
><br><u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5p=
t"><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">&gt; =C2=B7=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 having in &lt;operational&gt; do=
esn=E2=80=99t make sense, since the tweaks wouldn=E2=80=99t go thru &lt;run=
ning&gt; --&gt; &lt;intended&gt; validation.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;=
font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">&gt;=C2=A0 </span><u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-=
size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">&gt; I=E2=80=99m wonderi=
ng if a model like below would work for everyone - thoughts?</span><u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">&gt; [Qiufang M=
a] &lt;intended&gt; represents the configuration after all configuration tr=
ansformations to &lt;running&gt; have been performed, so I think it is only=
 coupled to &lt;running&gt;.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Cons=
olas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">&gt; Anyway, the &lt;system&gt; should also inter=
acts with &lt;operational&gt;.=C2=A0 Agreed?</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;=
font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin-left:108pt;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)">I don=E2=80=99t agree that &l=
t;intended&gt; must only be coupled to &lt;running&gt;.=C2=A0 Specifically,=
 I think that it is okay (compatible with NMDA) to define a &lt;system&gt; =
that also impacts &lt;intended&gt;.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This is the only (IMO) sane=
 approach, as it enables the </span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-famil=
y:Consolas;color:black">combination &lt;running&gt; + &lt;system&gt; to be =
validated.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt;backgro=
und:white"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;col=
or:black">[Qiufang Ma] Please see above. If &lt;running&gt; is OK to miss r=
eferenced system configuration, your proposal makes sense to me.</span><u><=
/u><u></u></pre></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-le=
ft:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in-left:72pt">Ack.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:72pt"><br><br=
><u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><=
pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt;background:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0Best Re=
gards,</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt;bac=
kground:white"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Qiufang Ma </span></i></b><u></u><u></u></pre>=
</blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72=
pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in-left:72pt">Kent // contributor<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p></div></div></div>___________________________________________=
____<br>
netmod mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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