From nobody Mon Aug 2 15:32:15 2021 Return-Path: <0100017b08feb7ef-71cbbcaa-256f-4947-ab27-9fdd40f2993a-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE043A1F6F for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 15:32:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IWwVQ3nrxGyu for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 15:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-83.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-83.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52BD83A1F5E for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 15:31:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1627943517; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=LdVxDxkwRxR2bKBwrN2bAqilXoBH4S1hZmShzhhsIpo=; b=C6ibJ4SEN3MaMl5SppOfMFzAhmDpNtgfjQiihWhb4YBpzRyomLfBw+Kca1REQIet cCEul9Lun5CK0ABfuPaAAYB/Dcw1D6s0yNlROs/SkeOOs4U527jypmQWaATJES4aQxO QZ8TDoD16NS4r0acejxkvd+i+fnkh5LCBtZ7r2OU= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017b08feb7ef-71cbbcaa-256f-4947-ab27-9fdd40f2993a-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AE36BCB5-7AFD-4C56-8D60-C6ED2D7C41E1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 22:31:56 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= , "maqiufang (A)" , "netmod@ietf.org" To: Andy Bierman References: <5b76dae2175545959f0006b036efd647@huawei.com> <2d1262bc90fc49d08eb641365b959ea4@huawei.com> <0100017aab854793-eb989e55-8496-451b-84de-7f17cb0720d5-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017aee17493f-6b9b747c-f0f1-4a70-b929-aaa0350a555f-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2021.08.02-54.240.8.83 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 22:32:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AE36BCB5-7AFD-4C56-8D60-C6ED2D7C41E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Balazs, Andy, Quifang, > I agree a new datastore will just add complexity without any value. > Your solution approach is better, but I think it would require a new = YANG version > to allow config node XPath to reference non-config nodes. In no case is there a need for a config Xpath to ref non-config. > Another solution is to model the referenced node as config=3Dtrue, but = setup > automatic NACM rules so no user editing is allowed. This works well = for > setting up an initial config that gets saved and not changed unless a = reset is done. I don=E2=80=99t like the NACM dependency. > What if is what is NV-stored? When that occurs, the config = changes from system to user config. > Routers have been saving the combined config for decades. IMO the = standards > intentionally avoid discussing the conversion of a datastore to/from = NV-storage. I=E2=80=99m unsure about this point, but a don=E2=80=99t see any = dependency on an NV-store needing to use a particular encoding or = format. > As I see it this is the same problem that we discussed in = https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/41 = . >=20 > I know this is a radical change, but I think using a new YANG = extension to create a read-only config=3Dtrue datatype is a much cleaner = solution. One which some companies have already implemented. >=20 > +1 >=20 > Actually, separate running and system would be a radical change, not = this. > Cleaner and less disruptive.=20 I disagree with the need to resolve issue #41 here, and I disagree a = datastore would be a radical change, or even complicated. That said, something like RFC 6243 (with-defaults) but called = =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D could work. That is, the =E2=80=9Csystem" = config is like config that is hidden until asked to be = revealed. It would be interesting to discuss if =E2=80=9Cwith-defaults" = returns all of the system config, or just the parts that are used, = assuming we define =E2=80=9Cused=E2=80=9D appropriately. Presumably = system-defined ordered-list entries cannot be ordered by user, or used = as before/after pivots. We could even do both: have a read-only datastore *and* a = "with-system" interaction API. Each complimenting the other. FWIW, a "with-system =E2=80=9D still may not pass validation = if, e.g., templates need to be expanded. Of course, any = controller/orchestrator can expand the templates themselves to resolve = that concern. Such a system could also fetch without skipping = a beat. Thought exercise: a controller is managing 1000 endpoints all running = the same software version. Is it better for the controller to get = "with-system =E2=80=9D 1000 times, or get once and = have knowledge for how its merged in? K. --Apple-Mail=_AE36BCB5-7AFD-4C56-8D60-C6ED2D7C41E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hi Balazs, Andy, Quifang,

I agree a new datastore will just = add complexity without any value.
Your solution = approach is better, but I think it would require a new YANG = version
to allow config node XPath to reference = non-config nodes.

In no case is there a need for a config Xpath to = ref non-config.


Another= solution is to model the referenced node as config=3Dtrue, but = setup
automatic NACM rules so no user editing is = allowed. This works well for
setting up an initial = config that gets saved and not changed unless a reset is = done.

I= don=E2=80=99t like the NACM dependency.


What if <intended> is what is NV-stored?  When = that occurs, the config changes from system to user config.
Routers have been saving the combined config for decades. IMO = the standards
intentionally avoid discussing the = conversion of a datastore to/from = NV-storage.

I=E2=80=99m unsure about this point, but a don=E2=80= =99t see any dependency on an NV-store needing to use a particular = encoding or format.

As I = see it this is the same problem that we discussed in https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/41.

I = know this is a radical change, but I think using a new YANG extension to = create a read-only config=3Dtrue datatype is a much cleaner solution. = One which some companies have already = implemented.

+1

Actually, separate running and system would be = a radical change, not this.
Cleaner and less = disruptive. 

I disagree with the need to resolve issue #41 = here, and I disagree a <system> datastore would be a radical = change, or even complicated.

That = said, something like RFC 6243 (with-defaults) but called = =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D could work.  That is, the =E2=80=9Csyst= em" config is like <running> config that is hidden until asked to = be revealed. It would be interesting to discuss if =E2=80=9Cwith-defaults"= returns all of the system config, or just the parts that are used, assuming we = define =E2=80=9Cused=E2=80=9D appropriately.   Presumably = system-defined ordered-list entries cannot be ordered by user, or used = as before/after pivots.

We could even do both: have a read-only = <system> datastore *and* a "with-system" interaction API.  Each = complimenting the other.

FWIW, a = "with-system <running>=E2=80=9D still may not = pass validation if, e.g., templates need to be expanded.  Of = course, any controller/orchestrator can expand the templates themselves = to resolve that concern.  Such a system could also fetch = <system> without skipping a beat.

Thought exercise: a controller is managing 1000 = endpoints all running the same software version.  Is it better for = the controller to get "with-system <running>=E2=80= =9D 1000 times, or get <system> once and have knowledge for how = its merged in?

K.




= --Apple-Mail=_AE36BCB5-7AFD-4C56-8D60-C6ED2D7C41E1-- From nobody Mon Aug 2 15:50:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0E2B3A1FF7 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 15:50:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CmBuQuhzpwgy for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 15:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D572C3A2014 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 15:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id t9so23557769lfc.6 for ; Mon, 02 Aug 2021 15:50:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/mjkwX9vd3/OXpD9u6y411kmvi8901N7R94Y7C8li0k=; b=Nei3vqjpRxC/agqUBFjduZ1R2lH6swkMiuVHnal8ke0JmNV91grWhn/eCRh/k6DM6C 91vn/CBQFvV75AHFlwZ55Xhucitd5OpNY3oGdTqmpjFDcrLL2+UAp6SjRlTlmCiXwNRB wFzvio1koRmYgyerVXm/LX536EYc3lVpAHJ5hR9hSMommsU4PVQk8zLMrH0kVBrGyP39 avdNAgP/qaN8Oo/4SWvvYzRySVP3cZp2zcgzh4ZTtgcFj34KDT2Oa6zS7Vd2KQW9CxQ1 Q3aVwKNyqQLS8C8mF1mAKb2lOxOMOSRrW7lfAZdb3X+vLNPV0d7OMLJqgIFLYdJjVwNe CRpw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/mjkwX9vd3/OXpD9u6y411kmvi8901N7R94Y7C8li0k=; b=XVin3DJWuRnKpsIb6f7yTslDHAFYe+LmEOJAZF55XE4gLS7IYmB6f8Ss8oasLNxxdW kd+Me4YqHVEoB+0tccXYSJRV05rLtAkVmM3wWt2SQM9/eaNMX6uhPnYVB1QarqWgY3pR ICGGDf15pPdT04gzOrj9Ujx/ohhXdL+RiKIY3HGIJImJhfwUMszVNWgEKhMSPoQqZqkl qsuN6RLtMj9woQBAsurPNbNRO+sKOIbfSom+5zaAoUwoGorQM3BxL+Q8x7+YqvVKEnnb SjNZm2zBU4Nym3UtoM7cHP+sm8XGnfZnrNeFve5N74GScbp2UgXUopVxokRTl5TlhCr7 et8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ttrGaEEFuRUrijsinIFgKtgwTb7bs6whOEt5AYHOjppXpvBAm X9nEw5ZT12r27PaSzxx90CUupD35PBlp3o+IPXyM3w9gf7I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxsNIkVUeTg6yA6nimX2YJ9nwSNRU7/12YwPP/MWLM4XJFjhCl8vknb8AmWzTfXTZGL0okfoM78GDP6Z5XQiVs= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:51d9:: with SMTP id u25mr2387469lfm.377.1627944604966; Mon, 02 Aug 2021 15:50:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5b76dae2175545959f0006b036efd647@huawei.com> <2d1262bc90fc49d08eb641365b959ea4@huawei.com> <0100017aab854793-eb989e55-8496-451b-84de-7f17cb0720d5-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017aee17493f-6b9b747c-f0f1-4a70-b929-aaa0350a555f-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017b08feb7ef-71cbbcaa-256f-4947-ab27-9fdd40f2993a-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <0100017b08feb7ef-71cbbcaa-256f-4947-ab27-9fdd40f2993a-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 15:49:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= , "maqiufang (A)" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e4bb4105c89b635e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 22:50:43 -0000 --000000000000e4bb4105c89b635e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 3:31 PM Kent Watsen wrote: > > Hi Balazs, Andy, Quifang, > > I agree a new datastore will just add complexity without any value. > Your solution approach is better, but I think it would require a new YANG > version > to allow config node XPath to reference non-config nodes. > > > In no case is there a need for a config Xpath to ref non-config. > > > Another solution is to model the referenced node as config=3Dtrue, but se= tup > automatic NACM rules so no user editing is allowed. This works well for > setting up an initial config that gets saved and not changed unless a > reset is done. > > > I don=E2=80=99t like the NACM dependency. > > > What if is what is NV-stored? When that occurs, the config > changes from system to user config. > Routers have been saving the combined config for decades. IMO the standar= ds > intentionally avoid discussing the conversion of a datastore to/from > NV-storage. > > > I=E2=80=99m unsure about this point, but a don=E2=80=99t see any dependen= cy on an NV-store > needing to use a particular encoding or format. > > As I see it this is the same problem that we discussed in >> https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/41. >> >> I know this is a radical change, but I think using a new YANG extension >> to create a read-only config=3Dtrue datatype is a much cleaner solution.= One >> which some companies have already implemented. >> > +1 > > Actually, separate running and system would be a radical change, not this= . > Cleaner and less disruptive. > > > I disagree with the need to resolve issue #41 here, and I disagree a > datastore would be a radical change, or even complicated. > > That said, something like RFC 6243 (with-defaults) but called > =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D could work. That is, the =E2=80=9Csystem" = config is like > config that is hidden until asked to be revealed. It would be interesting > to discuss if =E2=80=9Cwith-defaults" returns all of the system config, o= r just > the parts that are used, assuming we define =E2=80=9Cused=E2=80=9D approp= riately. > Presumably system-defined ordered-list entries cannot be ordered by use= r, > or used as before/after pivots. > > We could even do both: have a read-only datastore *and* a > "with-system" interaction API. Each complimenting the other. > I prefer neither. I think NMDA with an origin-filter and/or with-origin parameter already solves this problem. Andy > FWIW, a "with-system =E2=80=9D still may not pass validation if,= e.g., > templates need to be expanded. Of course, any controller/orchestrator ca= n > expand the templates themselves to resolve that concern. Such a system > could also fetch without skipping a beat. > > Thought exercise: a controller is managing 1000 endpoints all running the > same software version. Is it better for the controller to get "with-syst= em > =E2=80=9D 1000 times, or get once and have knowledge fo= r how > its merged in? > > K. > > > > > --000000000000e4bb4105c89b635e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 3:31 PM Kent W= atsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net> wrote:

Hi Balazs, Andy, Quif= ang,

I agree a new datastore will just add com= plexity without any value.
Your solution approach is better, but = I think it would require a new YANG version
to allow config node = XPath to reference non-config nodes.

In no case is there a need for a config Xpath to ref = non-config.


Another solution is to = model the referenced node as config=3Dtrue, but setup
automatic N= ACM rules so no user editing is allowed. This works well for
sett= ing up an initial config that gets saved and not changed unless a reset is = done.



What if <int= ended> is what is NV-stored?=C2=A0 When that occurs, the config changes = from system to user config.
Routers have been saving the combined= config for decades. IMO the standards
intentionally avoid discus= sing the conversion of a datastore to/from NV-storage.

I=E2=80=99m unsure about this point, bu= t a don=E2=80=99t see any dependency on an NV-store needing to use a partic= ular encoding or format.

As I see it this is the same problem that we discussed in https://g= ithub.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/41.

I know thi= s is a radical change, but I think using a new YANG extension to create a r= ead-only config=3Dtrue datatype is a much cleaner solution. One which some = companies have already implemented.

+1

Actually, separate running and=C2=A0system wou= ld be a=C2=A0radical change, not this.
Cleaner and less disruptiv= e.=C2=A0

I disagree with = the need to resolve issue #41 here, and I disagree a <system> datasto= re would be a radical change, or even complicated.

That said, something like RFC 6243 (with-defaults) but called =E2=80=9Cwit= h-system=E2=80=9D could work.=C2=A0 That is, the =E2=80=9Csystem" conf= ig is like <running> config that is hidden until asked to be revealed= . It would be interesting to discuss if =E2=80=9Cwith-defaults" return= s all of the system config, or=C2=A0just the parts = that are used, assuming we define=C2=A0=E2=80=9Cused=E2=80=9D=C2=A0ap= propriately. =C2=A0=C2=A0Presumably system-defined ordered-list entries can= not be ordered by user, or used as before/after pivots.=

We could even do both: have a read-only <system> = datastore *and* a=C2=A0"with-system&q= uot;=C2=A0interaction API.=C2=A0 Each complimenting the other.
=


I prefer = neither.
I think NMDA <get-data> with an origin-filter and/= or with-origin parameter already solves this problem.=C2=A0

<= /div>

Andy


FWIW, a "with-system=C2=A0<running>=E2=80=9D still may not pass validation if= , e.g., templates need to be expanded.=C2=A0 Of course, any controller/orch= estrator can expand the templates themselves to resolve that concern.=C2=A0= Such a system could also fetch <system> without skipping a beat.

Thought exercise: a controller is managing 1000 endpo= ints all running the same software version.=C2=A0 Is it better for the cont= roller to get "with-system=C2=A0<r= unning>=E2=80=9D 1000 times, or get <system> once and have = knowledge for how its merged in?

K.

=



--000000000000e4bb4105c89b635e-- From nobody Mon Aug 2 18:21:11 2021 Return-Path: <0100017b099998ea-5c3d114d-fa6f-4f00-bdf8-7aa6447ceef3-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998303A07C4 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 18:21:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Johe0FI8Fhyc for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 18:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0FFB3A07BF for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 18:21:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1627953666; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=QUoEmOKIjotDYhJppFsTI36ghGrjviAdcl6MUfbizwo=; b=RvKytrXtMeV0TxHOT1SZu9Qy8NPuAVVG1wozl9IsaOwOWeLRSrinf0E80lbcHDVs gbjYBHfdat5K4fvXuIegpw6wvnmg9Hi1gVmOChBoFzyFHApCB/Mh+8Kx5KDACTfjwal Sy+6b1N8wDJ1FUDJwj0iWcJT6iAMkkRqwds5C22Q= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017b099998ea-5c3d114d-fa6f-4f00-bdf8-7aa6447ceef3-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_440D41E4-F48E-47B3-9D5D-874F7E387D81" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 01:21:06 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= , "maqiufang (A)" , "netmod@ietf.org" To: Andy Bierman References: <5b76dae2175545959f0006b036efd647@huawei.com> <2d1262bc90fc49d08eb641365b959ea4@huawei.com> <0100017aab854793-eb989e55-8496-451b-84de-7f17cb0720d5-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017aee17493f-6b9b747c-f0f1-4a70-b929-aaa0350a555f-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017b08feb7ef-71cbbcaa-256f-4947-ab27-9fdd40f2993a-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2021.08.03-54.240.8.96 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 01:21:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_440D41E4-F48E-47B3-9D5D-874F7E387D81 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I prefer neither. > I think NMDA with an origin-filter and/or with-origin = parameter already solves this problem.=20 Some of the nodes defined in may be referenced by nodes defined = in . There is a desire for the nodes to not be = defined only in , for online/offline validation. K. --Apple-Mail=_440D41E4-F48E-47B3-9D5D-874F7E387D81 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I prefer neither.
I = think NMDA <get-data> with an origin-filter and/or with-origin = parameter already solves this problem. 

Some of the nodes defined in <system> may be = referenced by nodes defined in <running>.  There is a desire = for the <system> nodes to not be defined only in = <operational>, for online/offline validation.

K.


= --Apple-Mail=_440D41E4-F48E-47B3-9D5D-874F7E387D81-- From nobody Mon Aug 2 18:45:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5423A08DE for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 18:45:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JydLCnt46rU6 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 18:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA 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From: "Fengchong (frank)" To: Andy Bierman , Kent Watsen CC: =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBMZW5neWVs?= , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism Thread-Index: Add4ieaMV4M1zhk1St6ROfyHhlohlAAAAuNAADd2vwAAKFO5cAJhxiGAAJuFmrD//87VgIAAB8mAgAODFgCAAAUFAP//TxCA Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 01:45:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5b76dae2175545959f0006b036efd647@huawei.com> <2d1262bc90fc49d08eb641365b959ea4@huawei.com> <0100017aab854793-eb989e55-8496-451b-84de-7f17cb0720d5-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017aee17493f-6b9b747c-f0f1-4a70-b929-aaa0350a555f-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017b08feb7ef-71cbbcaa-256f-4947-ab27-9fdd40f2993a-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.113.80] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_b4ead22f31c44b5296e51138befd6816huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] 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Aug 2021 04:15:25.0910 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: 42uF1gkwJuJPgSAnpumDDbDyqEofH6u6lARiS5Badm2/m5KjFekC9POYgw+hHsN2CiH4dFhGEKYvw9y4EY45PVe3piJfEkGYyk3BmnAqRoc= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM9P190MB1249 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBzeXN0ZW0gY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiBzeW5j?= =?utf-8?q?_mechanism?= X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 04:15:34 -0000 On Tue, Aug 03, 2021 at 01:45:40AM +0000, Fengchong (frank) wrote: > Hi andy and all. > > I don’t think get-data with origin can solve the issues below: > > > 1. Some leafs like interface type CAN NOT be modified by user, but can be referenced by other config nodes(e.g. using leafref or occur in when/must). The validation will be fail if these leafs are not be configured by user now explicitly (we assume these leafs are optional and no default value). The interface type in the RFC 8343 module is config true. YANG does not allow you to refer to config false nodes in constraints that apply to config true nodes. A core principle is that the content of a configuration datastore can be validated without knowing the actual state of the system. > 2. Some instances are generated by system, but these instances can be referenced by other config nodes. The validation must be fail if these instances are not be recreated by user explicitly now. Yes, a configuration datastore is self-contained. If a client wants to configure the interface x, it has to define the interface x in the configuration. Note that this should not be confused with a system generating an interface x after probing the hardware. Note the difference between operational state, applied config, and running config. Let me add that the underlying model is that the client(s) have control over the configuration. A system making ad-hoc changes to the config (even with the best intentions) will be surprising. In this model, the only way to inject config into running on system boot is to have a client making changes to running following the normal procedures - at least conceptually. This means that conceptually the other clients need to be aware that there is a system client injecting configuration. If you follow this logic, it seems wrong to define a system datastore that is somehow magically merged into running - and it is not needed. > 3. User may need know what the original system configuration is, if we get data from , you may get the modified system configuration.(for example, user modify or template is expanded, or only active instances) If you have multiple clients managing shared configuration, then yes it is good if they are aware of what is going on. I am not sure yet that exposing other clients intentions via additional datastores and defining merge mechanisms and semantics is the way to go. > I don’t care about whether system datastore is imported to running or intended datastores. But I think if a config node reference a system node, the validation (running or intended datastores) will be successful even if the system node is not configured by user explicitly. I am concerned about having to define what "is imported" means precisely and whether moving to a model multiple datastores have to be merged before validation is the way to go. We already acknowledged that there are template expansions in some implementations without working out how they work. > Especially on the client side, if a client need validate all data retrieved from server, the validation SHOULD be successful. If system configuration are not imported to running, at a minimum, the client needs to know what the original system configuration is. Another way is adding with-system-used parameter to get-config operation to retrieved all user configuration and system configuration referenced by user configuration. Let me repeat, in the original model, the running configuration datastore is self-contained and can be validated without knowing additional datastores. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Aug 3 00:34:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA5CA3A17E5 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 00:34:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x1oJnXxIQ8x7 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 00:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 888D23A17DC for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 00:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml737-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.226]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4Gf67d1LPFz6BBTb; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:34:05 +0800 (CST) Received: from dggpemm500002.china.huawei.com (7.185.36.229) by fraeml737-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2176.2; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 09:34:14 +0200 Received: from dggpemm500003.china.huawei.com (7.185.36.56) by dggpemm500002.china.huawei.com (7.185.36.229) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2176.2; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:34:12 +0800 Received: from dggpemm500003.china.huawei.com ([7.185.36.56]) by dggpemm500003.china.huawei.com ([7.185.36.56]) with mapi id 15.01.2176.012; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:34:12 +0800 From: "Fengchong (frank)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Andy Bierman , Kent Watsen , =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBMZW5neWVs?= , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W25ldG1vZF0g562U5aSNOiAgc3lzdGVtIGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gc3luYyBt?= =?utf-8?Q?echanism?= Thread-Index: AQHXiB5IYCPxAV321kuwEVMa26ur36thWjqw Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 07:34:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2d1262bc90fc49d08eb641365b959ea4@huawei.com> <0100017aab854793-eb989e55-8496-451b-84de-7f17cb0720d5-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017aee17493f-6b9b747c-f0f1-4a70-b929-aaa0350a555f-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017b08feb7ef-71cbbcaa-256f-4947-ab27-9fdd40f2993a-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20210803041523.vpq2ltompplxn53p@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20210803041523.vpq2ltompplxn53p@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> 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ZWF0LCBpbiB0aGUgb3JpZ2luYWwgbW9kZWwsIHRoZSBydW5uaW5nIGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gZGF0 YXN0b3JlIGlzIHNlbGYtY29udGFpbmVkIGFuZCBjYW4gYmUgdmFsaWRhdGVkIHdpdGhvdXQga25v d2luZyBhZGRpdGlvbmFsIGRhdGFzdG9yZXMuDQoNCi9qcw0KDQotLSANCkp1ZXJnZW4gU2Nob2Vu d2FlbGRlciAgICAgICAgICAgSmFjb2JzIFVuaXZlcnNpdHkgQnJlbWVuIGdHbWJIDQpQaG9uZTog KzQ5IDQyMSAyMDAgMzU4NyAgICAgICAgIENhbXB1cyBSaW5nIDEgfCAyODc1OSBCcmVtZW4gfCBH ZXJtYW55DQpGYXg6ICAgKzQ5IDQyMSAyMDAgMzEwMyAgICAgICAgIDxodHRwczovL3d3dy5qYWNv YnMtdW5pdmVyc2l0eS5kZS8+DQo= From nobody Tue Aug 3 04:41:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04FE3A200B for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 04:41:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, 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15.1.2176.2; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 13:41:19 +0200 Received: from dggeme770-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.116) by dggeme717-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.113) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2176.2; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 19:41:17 +0800 Received: from dggeme770-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.8.68.58]) by dggeme770-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.8.68.58]) with mapi id 15.01.2176.012; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 19:41:17 +0800 From: "maqiufang (A)" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ma-netconf-with-system-02 Thread-Index: AdeF/1pqKZkIs+uyRwqKwRPtF511NACFTLOA Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 11:41:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.123.93] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_b84a86093e4742e1bf22e6c6bc723215huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Comments on draft-ma-netconf-with-system-02 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 11:41:29 -0000 --_000_b84a86093e4742e1bf22e6c6bc723215huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Bal=E1zs, Thanks for the comments, please see my reply inline. P.S. I notice that some of the issues is related to auto-populate operation= from into (e.g., will not delete system configurations w= hich has already been populated into , allow a delete operation an= d reload automatically). Since there are some concerns about auto-populate because it may violate th= e definition of , I think it would be good to further discuss thes= e issues only after the WG reaches a consensus on auto-populate. From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=E1zs Lengyel Sent: Sunday, August 1, 2021 12:01 AM To: 'netmod@ietf.org' Subject: [netmod] Comments on draft-ma-netconf-with-system-02 Hello, MAJOR: The purpose of the draft (the purpose of creating a new datastore) should b= e clearly stated. In my view: "There is a need to validate configuration data against data created by the= system." [Qiufang Ma] The purpose of introducing a new datastore to hold all the sys= tem configuration is that, there is a need to validate configuration data a= gainst data created by the system. That is to say, we need a datastore to hold the pure system configuration. = The system configurations present in are those in use. There = exists some system configurations which will not take effect by default unt= il being referenced. They are not present in with a high probability, thus no way = to retrieve. And also because if a system configuration data item is refere= nced or modified explicitly by the operators, it will be present in with its origin value set to be intended rather that system, and the= re is no way to retrieve original system configuration before modification. What is the purpose of system-configuration Use-case A) The system sets some values because it knows what they shall= be. In this case the client must not be allowed to modify these values. We= want to check configuration data against these values. E.g., AcmeHomeRout= er has 5 interfaces called eth0, eth1, eth,2, eth3 and WAN. The client shou= ld not try to add or remove interfaces to this set. Use-case B) The system provides initial values for something that can be= configured in many ways. In this case the client is free to modify the sys= tem-defined values. E.g., an initial set of NACM rules is provided. In this= case any constraints based on the system data are very weak, as the user c= an change the system-data itself. Use-case a) is very interesting and we actually implemented non-standard su= pport for it. I would welcome it in an RFC. I, myself tried to address this in https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/i= ssues/41 Use-case b) IMHO does not require any special support. I will just load the= initial configuration as a last step of a reset, upgrade etc. [Qiufang Ma] The motivation of this work is that the referenced system conf= igurations must be retrieved from and then copied into to make sure a successful validation, which is inconvenient. This appli= es to both use cases. I understand the issue you raised in use case A, but = I am not sure if we should resolve it in this draft. I think it's somethin= g we need to investigate. Can a client remove or change a system-configuration data-node that is auto= matically or manually copied to running/intended? In use-case A) NO. In us= e case B) yes. Allowing some modifications, but not others is IMHO misleading and not acce= ptable. Assuming that additions are OK while delete is not could be incorre= ct if, the absence of some data node is important for the network node. [Qiufang Ma] So are you suggesting that we should not allow system configur= ation modifications even those in the use-case B? Allowing some modificatio= ns but not others seems no harm if the server could convey modifiable infor= mation to the operators so that the operators can distinguish these two use= -cases. Ch.2.2) " should also immediately reset to its factory default stat= e." What is this state? It is undefined. I would rather say: should be= reloaded or recreated. Factory-reset may or may not remove results of an upgrade. [Qiufang Ma] I will make some editorial changes about this, thanks. Ch.3) "Update with the system configuration change" The auto-update should either be allowed to modify running or not, but this= idea of allowing create but not allowing delete is wrong. You may easily h= ave a "must" or "when" statement that checks that something does not exist,= in which case the current proposed behavior can lead to invalid configurat= ion. Also, the current behavior does not state whether a "case" in a choice= statement can be added? If you add one "case" the other is deleted. So, ca= n I add a "case"? [Qiufang Ma] I think the reason for "allowing create but not allowing delet= e" is as you mentioned above, additions are OK while delete is not could be= incorrect if, the absence of some data node is important for the network n= ode. The system should be very careful to delete configurations in since these configurations are likely to have already been modified or re= ferenced. So we choose to remain the deleted system configurations in , some of which may need to be further coped with by the operators. Re= garding the choice statement you mentioned, since only one case should be v= alid and the creation of a node from one case will implicitly delete all no= des from all other cases, if someone adds one case then the system should = delete all other existing nodes defined in other cases, no matter if these = nodes are generated by the system or not. Is this what you had in mind? Ch 3.1 ) "If there exists any conflict, the configuration in the should su= cceed." It is hard to define what is a conflict. E.g. If the user deletes a data no= de, but it comes back when loading system, how do we know if this is a conf= lict because the user deleted it or if this is a new node that we can be fr= eely loaded into running/intended./intended. IMHO one more reason why syste= m-data must not be modified in running/intended; then we don't have this co= nflict. [Qiufang Ma] Here by conflict, I mean when both and are= merged into , the same system configuration data item may hav= e different values(e.g., if the operators modified that system configuratio= n in ). Then the configurations in the (and further prese= nt in ) should be treated as first priority. CH.3.2) Allowing a delete and then automatically reloading it is a very bad= idea. It is misleading for the user that a data node is in place after a s= uccessful delete. Also, after delete, it is reloaded; so, between a success= ful delete and the reloading there is a short interval where the data node = is not present? Dangerous. [Qiufang Ma] I think allowing a delete and then automatically reloading sho= uld be treated as a way to wipe the client configurations which is imposed = on the system configurations. Why don't we have a auto-reload after merge? Either allow Netconf/CLI/Rest= conf to modify such system data or not. A mixed approach is not acceptable. [Qiufang Ma] I think it could be an alternative to have an auto-reload afte= r merge. But not allowing NETCONF/CLI/RESTCONF to modify such system config= urations in seems unreasonable. Ch 5.3.2) So if I have a model Container aaa { Presence aaa; Leaf bbb {} } Where bbb is system data, but aaa is not then the following 2 operations m= ight lead to different results ? IMHO that is not acceptable: - Delete bbb - Replace aaa with an empty aaa container [Qiufang Ma] In auto-populate handling mode, delete operation for a system = configuration(bbb) which is loaded from into should succ= eed. But the deleted data item should be reloaded into immediate= ly if it is still present in the ; The logic is that if the system = detects that some system configuration data item is not present in it should perform the auto-copy operation. So I think replace aaa with an= empty aaa container should also lead to the same result. Best Regards, Qiufang Ma Regards Balazs P.S. I am partly new to the topic, so sorry if I repeat some questions. -- Balazs Lengyel Senior Specialist E= ricsson Hungary Ltd. Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com --_000_b84a86093e4742e1bf22e6c6bc723215huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, Bal=E1zs,

Thanks for the comment= s, please see my reply inline.

P.S. I notice that som= e of the issues is related to auto-populate operation from <system> i= nto <running>(e.g., will not delete system configurations which has a= lready been populated into <running>, allow a delete operation and reload automatically).

Since there are some c= oncerns about auto-populate because it may violate the definition of <ru= nning>, I think it would be good to further discuss these issues only af= ter the WG reaches a consensus on auto-populate.

 

 

From: netmod [ma= ilto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=E1zs Lengyel
Sent: Sunday, August 1, 2021 12:01 AM
To: 'netmod@ietf.org' <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] Comments on draft-ma-netconf-with-system-02

 

Hello,

MAJOR:

The purpose of the draf= t (the purpose of creating a new datastore) should be clearly stated. In my= view:

“There is a need = to validate configuration data against data created by the system.”

[Qiufang Ma] The= purpose of introducing a new datastore to hold all the system configuratio= n is that, there is a need to validate configuration data against data crea= ted by the system.

That is to say, = we need a datastore to hold the pure system configuration. The system confi= gurations present in <operational> are those in use. There exists som= e system configurations which will not take effect by default until being referenced.

They are not pre= sent in <operational> with a high probability, thus no way to retriev= e. And also because if a system configuration data item is referenced or mo= dified explicitly by the operators, it will be present in <operational> with its origin value set to be intended= rather that system, and there is no way to retrieve original system config= uration before modification.

 

What is the purpose of = system-configuration

Use-case A)   = ; The system sets some values because it knows what they shall be. In = this case the client must not be allowed to modify these values. We want to= check configuration data against these values.  E.g., AcmeHomeRouter has 5 interfaces called eth0, eth1, eth,2, eth3 and WAN. Th= e client should not try to add or remove interfaces to this set.=

Use-case B)   = ; The system provides initial values for something that can be configu= red in many ways. In this case the client is free to modify the system-defi= ned values. E.g., an initial set of NACM rules is provided. In this case any constraints based on the system data are very weak, as th= e user can change the system-data itself.

 

Use-case a) is very int= eresting and we actually implemented non-standard support for it. I would w= elcome it in an RFC.

I, myself tried to addr= ess this in https://github= .com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/41

Use-case b) IMHO does n= ot require any special support. I will just load the initial configuration = as a last step of a reset, upgrade etc.

[Qiufang Ma] The= motivation of this work is that the referenced system configurations must = be retrieved from <operational> and then copied into <running> = to make sure a successful validation, which is inconvenient. This applies to both use cases. I understand the issue you raised in use c= ase A, but I am not sure if we should resolve it  in this draft. I thi= nk it’s something we need to investigate.

 

 

Can a client remove or = change a system-configuration data-node that is automatically or manually c= opied to running/intended?  In use-case A) NO. In use case B) yes.

Allowing some modificat= ions, but not others is IMHO misleading and not acceptable. Assuming that a= dditions are OK while delete is not could be incorrect if, the absence of s= ome data node is important for the network node.

[Qiufang Ma] So = are you suggesting that we should not allow system configuration modificati= ons even those in the use-case B? Allowing some modifications but not other= s seems no harm if the server could convey modifiable information to the operators so that the operators can d= istinguish these two use-cases.

 

 

Ch.2.2) “<s= ystem> should also immediately reset to its factory default state.&#= 8221;

What is this state? It is undefined. I w=
ould rather say: <system> should be reloaded or recreated.=

Factory-reset may or ma= y not remove results of an upgrade.

[Qiufang Ma] I w= ill make some editorial changes about this, thanks.

 

Ch.3)

“Update <running> with the sy=
stem configuration change“
The auto-update should either be allowed=
 to modify running or not, but this idea of allowing create but not allowin=
g delete is wrong. You may easily have a “must” or “when&=
#8221; statement that checks that something does not exist, in which case t=
he current proposed behavior can lead to invalid configuration. Also, the c=
urrent behavior does not state whether a “case” in a choice sta=
tement can be added? If you add one “case” the other is deleted=
. So, can I add a “case”?
[Qiufang Ma] I think the reason for “allowi=
ng create but not allowing delete” is as you mentioned above, additio=
ns are OK while delete is not could be incorrect if, the absence of some da=
ta node is important for the network node. The system should be very carefu=
l to delete configurations in <running> since these configurations ar=
e likely to have already been modified or referenced. So we choose to remai=
n the deleted system configurations in <running>, some of which may n=
eed to be further coped with by the operators.  Regarding the choice s=
tatement you mentioned, since only one case should be valid and the creatio=
n of a node from one case will implicitly delete all nodes from all other c=
ases,  if someone adds one case then the system should delete all othe=
r existing nodes defined in other cases, no matter if these nodes are gener=
ated by the system or not. Is this what you had in mind? 
 
Ch 3.1 )
“If there exists any conflict, the =
configuration in the <running> should succeed.”

It is hard to define what is a conflict.=
 E.g. If the user deletes a data node, but it comes back when loading syste=
m, how do we know if this is a conflict because the user deleted it or if t=
his is a new node that we can be freely loaded into running/intended./inten=
ded. IMHO one more reason why system-data must not be modified in running/i=
ntended; then we don’t have this conflict. 


[Qiufang Ma] Here by conflict, I mean when both &=
lt;intended> and <system> are merged into <operational>, the=
 same system configuration data item may have different values(e.g., if the=
 operators modified that system configuration in <running>). Then the=
 configurations in the <running>(and further present in <intended&=
gt;) should be treated as first priority. 


 


CH.3.2) Allowing a delete and then autom=
atically reloading it is a very bad idea. It is misleading for the user tha=
t a data node is in place after a successful delete. Also, after delete, it=
 is reloaded; so, between a successful delete and the reloading there is a =
short interval where the data node is not present? Dangerous.


[Qiufang Ma] I think allowing a delete and then a=
utomatically reloading should be treated as a way to wipe the client config=
urations which is imposed on the system configurations. 


 


Why don’t we have a auto-reload af=
ter merge?  Either allow Netconf/CLI/Restconf to modify such system da=
ta or not. A mixed approach is not acceptable. 


[Qiufang Ma] I think it could be an alternative t=
o have an auto-reload after merge. But not allowing NETCONF/CLI/RESTCONF to=
 modify such system configurations in <running> seems unreasonable.


 


Ch 5.3.2) So if I have a model


Container aaa {


  Presence aaa;

  Leaf bbb {}

}


Where bbb is system data, but aaa is not=
 then  the following 2 operations might lead to different results ? IM=
HO that is not acceptable:


-      &=
nbsp;   Delete bbb


-      &=
nbsp;   Replace aaa with an empty=
 aaa container


[Qiufang Ma] In auto-populate handling mode, dele=
te operation for a system configuration(bbb) which is loaded from <syste=
m> into <running> should succeed. But the deleted data item should=
 be reloaded into <running>  immediately if it is still present =
in the <system>; The logic is that if the system detects that some sy=
stem configuration data item is not present in <running> it should pe=
rform the auto-copy operation. So I think replace aaa with an empty aaa con=
tainer should also lead to the same result.


 


Best Regards,


Qiufang Ma


 


Regards Balazs


 


P.S. I am partly new to=
 the topic, so sorry if I repeat some questions.


 


-- 


Balazs Lengyel &nb=
sp;            =
      Senior Specialist    &nb=
sp;            =
      Ericsson Hungary Ltd.



Mobile: +36-70-330-=
7909            =
;  email:
Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com<=
/a>


 
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Kent Watsen ; Balázs Lengyel ; netmod@ietf.org > 主题: Re: [netmod] 答复: system configuration sync mechanism > > On Tue, Aug 03, 2021 at 01:45:40AM +0000, Fengchong (frank) wrote: > > Hi andy and all. > > > > I don’t think get-data with origin can solve the issues below: > > > > > > 1. Some leafs like interface type CAN NOT be modified by user, but can be referenced by other config nodes(e.g. using leafref or occur in when/must). The validation will be fail if these leafs are not be configured by user now explicitly (we assume these leafs are optional and no default value). > > The interface type in the RFC 8343 module is config true. YANG does not allow you to refer to config false nodes in constraints that apply to config true nodes. A core principle is that the content of a configuration datastore can be validated without knowing the actual state of the system. > > Frank: yes, interface type is a config node, but it isn't allow to be modified. If a config node reference if-type, in order to validate data successfully ,user must have to config if-type with determined value again. For example, user must config if-type with 'ethernet' for ethernet0/0/1. I don't think it makes sense. The if-type has been created by system, when running config is merged to , it can work and the validation is successful. If you think running datastore is self-contained, I will think the system configuration should be imported to running datastore automatically to ensure successful validation You are writing about system configuration and operational state as if they are the same. I am not sure they are. Also note that interfaces are not static by any means, they come and go on a modular system. Do you consider plugging in an interface a system config change?? > > 2. Some instances are generated by system, but these instances can be referenced by other config nodes. The validation must be fail if these instances are not be recreated by user explicitly now. > > Yes, a configuration datastore is self-contained. If a client wants to configure the interface x, it has to define the interface x in the configuration. Note that this should not be confused with a system generating an interface x after probing the hardware. Note the difference between operational state, applied config, and running config. > > Frank: for example , predefined policies are provided by system, user configuration can reference these predefined policy directly. but because predefined policies are not configured by user explicitly, the validation will be fail. If you want to get a successful validation , user MUST have to redefined the system predefined policies. Referential integrity of a configuration does have benefits and hence the config has to be there somehow. There was a strong desire to avoid dangling references that may resolve or not. > So, system predefined data are useless. I think it is unreasonable. > > Let me add that the underlying model is that the client(s) have control over the configuration. A system making ad-hoc changes to the config (even with the best intentions) will be surprising. In this model, the only way to inject config into running on system boot is to have a client making changes to running following the normal procedures - at least conceptually. This means that conceptually the other clients need to be aware that there is a system client injecting configuration. > > If you follow this logic, it seems wrong to define a system datastore that is somehow magically merged into running - and it is not needed. > > Frank: system configuration not only includes some instances generated on reboot time, but also includes the configuration when hardware is plugged in, or a function is enabled (for example, in huawei's implementation, when QOS function is enabled, many qos predefined policies are created by system) or a user-created list instance is created, some leafs' value will be created by system. So , we need a system datastore to hold these configuration. Or you have a system client that is going to merge config into running. > > 3. User may need know what the original system configuration is, if we get data from , you may get the modified system configuration.(for example, user modify or template is expanded, or only active instances) > > If you have multiple clients managing shared configuration, then yes it is good if they are aware of what is going on. I am not sure yet that exposing other clients intentions via additional datastores and defining merge mechanisms and semantics is the way to go. > > > I don’t care about whether system datastore is imported to running or intended datastores. But I think if a config node reference a system node, the validation (running or intended datastores) will be successful even if the system node is not configured by user explicitly. > > I am concerned about having to define what "is imported" means precisely and whether moving to a model multiple datastores have to be merged before validation is the way to go. We already acknowledged that there are template expansions in some implementations without working out how they work. > > > Especially on the client side, if a client need validate all data retrieved from server, the validation SHOULD be successful. If system configuration are not imported to running, at a minimum, the client needs to know what the original system configuration is. Another way is adding with-system-used parameter to get-config operation to retrieved all user configuration and system configuration referenced by user configuration. > > Let me repeat, in the original model, the running configuration datastore is self-contained and can be validated without knowing additional datastores. > > /js > /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Aug 3 06:01:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EFCC3A227E for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 06:01:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cesnet.cz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V5iH3Uy30epd for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 06:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalendar.cesnet.cz (kalendar.cesnet.cz [78.128.211.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1857E3A227B for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 06:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kalendar.cesnet.cz (Postfix, from userid 110) id 8CFF860092; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:01:10 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cesnet.cz; s=kalendar; t=1627995670; bh=oDpNWSk6v/jErwndjoPgD+K2JuvC/kvJxJeQCZ8Ld8Y=; h=From:To:Date:Subject; b=JZyrNk+9bUyfqk8pcZdRnFrjGTwri0og7+bTs4Rn4CjQHSiUfYVvVOvj32H3bhzgA RGlJYZ1/RpTXv0aAKy1aoU5tFBZeWPQmOWqoDfc6FkNmkdSWFlMJAwrj07u9Vjhs6K kkKdxW4H55R8IsTW/mcQKmFW4/doziY/9gZI5EWE= From: =?utf-8?q?Michal_Va=C5=A1ko?= To: "netmod" User-Agent: SOGoMail 5.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 15:01:10 +0200 Message-ID: <4f62-61093e00-23-572d3100@187206536> X-Forward: 2001:67c:1220:80c:b5:55d3:81d5:8636 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC modify-subscription X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 13:01:23 -0000 Hi, it seems the "modify-subscription" RPC [1] includes a mandatory choice = "target" [2]. In effect, it is not possible to modify a subscription fo= r it to be without a filter. I do not understand the reason for this, i= s it intentional or an error in the module? Regards, Michal [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-53 [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-48 From nobody Tue Aug 3 10:11:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42E5F3A2A4C for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 10:11:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R92ASaBJ9i5j for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 10:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A856D3A2A4F for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 10:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id z2so40988340lft.1 for ; Tue, 03 Aug 2021 10:11:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ahHespBqLFOqIX65xzYIKHXOK4bYdA0X2jEc6RcILmc=; b=yVyvssQFfGqzC5RniajTjDqwXG0n+ogESLZOxKF4RLYX/dgkTcddowZKRd2vvE6mHv M99dwToK8sK2FcyKITfwcUdGu1peQ/qk86bUHRvEb0fyb0w8EJiW+u6C1WL9M2X9i4Vf nlT7gEpzOZdcKusXS4sMASwXwlHb2Sepj2AY8FBIf+jMFOD3MTJdT5NLxf9V1wZfsVi/ IE4ED52M8l//g0CQkrQhKMWGBeQbusDXS2TdWBv7//R2ky3XxF1BZZxhPFBCSLIxtwOc UUP+zijNO2hdiqtXRYEuONyAMabMvbLtWeqiXGPoHcQ6Y9XHfXjfAML+ovN4ICo3nQqr WCYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ahHespBqLFOqIX65xzYIKHXOK4bYdA0X2jEc6RcILmc=; b=qedOFQbFgf0xNjQWfKFZkID0ZqlVrFSyqZrC0IxRQSotTJXbkaMYlq+7Q0V1AcAT6r y3LLVqMjByYmLPItWMfauIco6HaP6vgMGp5RNbbZsLvlAteGXljH/nQ/uoIhofHgkp2E 6PNhc9lOZU4ofmKF6WwoLhCAQhfTkHs0RbtbzPvJ14X6iJ+HxYXgkaOZcTuaTkF0iXZV yfUn9FYmaRJnwBd+IXIc8md9j57zgYV1ZzX6y4w/sNa6/ocaGSx1jTO64k+azjpaZsbu MPNmEvY5PChgpN63jrQeIMC3EMQjIMITATuckkdOOOXmau9nqX79KzZpQoPv/dpE9w5x LRCg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533c60drRI0xKORwq/oge5eM3ZA1uynS2aAtYn7My4Xh664ICbs6 YQaLgVRusFnSs51qbMEwKsgwYRhk9r6pcX98QinhtA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzmCNY+hwkAoGrFjth0srUzs2aAJIcosB6HBqYsLYLts1Q1heJZfBHPIXXm20VaUmkNHRdDX7m01nHsqJkhcIQ= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4824:: with SMTP id 4mr17491173lft.553.1628010687254; Tue, 03 Aug 2021 10:11:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2d1262bc90fc49d08eb641365b959ea4@huawei.com> <0100017aab854793-eb989e55-8496-451b-84de-7f17cb0720d5-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017aee17493f-6b9b747c-f0f1-4a70-b929-aaa0350a555f-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017b08feb7ef-71cbbcaa-256f-4947-ab27-9fdd40f2993a-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20210803041523.vpq2ltompplxn53p@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 10:11:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Fengchong (frank)" Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Kent Watsen , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b46a2a05c8aac6f5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBzeXN0ZW0gY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiBzeW5j?= =?utf-8?q?_mechanism?= X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 17:11:43 -0000 --000000000000b46a2a05c8aac6f5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 12:34 AM Fengchong (frank) < frank.fengchong@huawei.com> wrote: > Hi juergen, > Please see my comments inline. > > /frank > > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder [mailto:j.= schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2021=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 1= 2:15 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Fengchong (frank) > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Andy Bierman ; Kent Watsen ; > Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; > netmod@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [netmod] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: system configuration= sync mechanism > > On Tue, Aug 03, 2021 at 01:45:40AM +0000, Fengchong (frank) wrote: > > Hi andy and all. > > > > I don=E2=80=99t think get-data with origin can solve the issues below: > > > > > > 1. Some leafs like interface type CAN NOT be modified by user, bu= t > can be referenced by other config nodes(e.g. using leafref or occur in > when/must). The validation will be fail if these leafs are not be > configured by user now explicitly (we assume these leafs are optional and > no default value). > > The interface type in the RFC 8343 module is config true. YANG does not > allow you to refer to config false nodes in constraints that apply to > config true nodes. A core principle is that the content of a configuratio= n > datastore can be validated without knowing the actual state of the system= . > > Frank: yes, interface type is a config node, but it isn't allow to be > modified. If a config node reference if-type, in order to validate data > successfully ,user must have to config if-type with determined value agai= n. > For example, user must config if-type with 'ethernet' for ethernet0/0/1. = I > don't think it makes sense. The if-type has been created by system, when > running config is merged to , it can work and the validation > is successful. If you think running datastore is self-contained, I will > think the system configuration should be imported to running datastore > automatically to ensure successful validation > > I doubt another rewrite of ietf-interfaces would gain much support. There are many objects that have user access restrictions that are not standardized with machine-readable statements. I am interested in the 2 use cases that Balazs described. The system does its own access control (not NACM) wrt/ these objects. The server just rejects the edit requests, even though the standard YANG indicates it should be writable. Some standard extensions to tag the data would help applications better predict server behavior. There is no way in YANG 1.1 to have a config=3Dtrue node reference config=3Dfalse in the XPath. (Well, we implement it but the developer has to enable it). I do not see the point of the system datastore if it contains config=3Dtrue nodes, just so that XPath can reference it. I do not agree that it is useful or easy to implement, especially since the contents of are visible in . Representing the possible instances is non-trivial (e.g. pattern allowed, not a fixed name, resulting in 6 million possible values). If the system datastore contains config=3Dfalse nodes, then you are talking about a rewrite of the YANG validation architecture and a new version of YANG. IMO there is no need for that. Andy > 2. Some instances are generated by system, but these instances can > be referenced by other config nodes. The validation must be fail if these > instances are not be recreated by user explicitly now. > > Yes, a configuration datastore is self-contained. If a client wants to > configure the interface x, it has to define the interface x in the > configuration. Note that this should not be confused with a system > generating an interface x after probing the hardware. Note the difference > between operational state, applied config, and running config. > > Frank: for example , predefined policies are provided by system, user > configuration can reference these predefined policy directly. but because > predefined policies are not configured by user explicitly, the validation > will be fail. If you want to get a successful validation , user MUST have > to redefined the system predefined policies. > So, system predefined data are useless. I think it is unreasonable. > > > > Let me add that the underlying model is that the client(s) have control > over the configuration. A system making ad-hoc changes to the config (eve= n > with the best intentions) will be surprising. In this model, the only way > to inject config into running on system boot is to have a client making > changes to running following the normal procedures - at least conceptuall= y. > This means that conceptually the other clients need to be aware that ther= e > is a system client injecting configuration. > > If you follow this logic, it seems wrong to define a system datastore tha= t > is somehow magically merged into running - and it is not needed. > > Frank: system configuration not only includes some instances generated on > reboot time, but also includes the configuration when hardware is plugged > in, or a function is enabled (for example, in huawei's implementation, wh= en > QOS function is enabled, many qos predefined policies are created by > system) or a user-created list instance is created, some leafs' value wil= l > be created by system. So , we need a system datastore to hold these > configuration. > > > 3. User may need know what the original system configuration is, > if we get data from , you may get the modified system > configuration.(for example, user modify or template is expanded, or only > active instances) > > If you have multiple clients managing shared configuration, then yes it i= s > good if they are aware of what is going on. I am not sure yet that exposi= ng > other clients intentions via additional datastores and defining merge > mechanisms and semantics is the way to go. > > > I don=E2=80=99t care about whether system datastore is imported to runn= ing or > intended datastores. But I think if a config node reference a system node= , > the validation (running or intended datastores) will be successful even i= f > the system node is not configured by user explicitly. > > I am concerned about having to define what "is imported" means precisely > and whether moving to a model multiple datastores have to be merged befor= e > validation is the way to go. We already acknowledged that there are > template expansions in some implementations without working out how they > work. > > > Especially on the client side, if a client need validate all data > retrieved from server, the validation SHOULD be successful. If system > configuration are not imported to running, at a minimum, the client needs > to know what the original system configuration is. Another way is adding > with-system-used parameter to get-config operation to retrieved all user > configuration and system configuration referenced by user configuration. > > Let me repeat, in the original model, the running configuration datastore > is self-contained and can be validated without knowing additional > datastores. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --000000000000b46a2a05c8aac6f5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 12:34 AM Fengc= hong (frank) <frank.fengch= ong@huawei.com> wrote:
Hi juergen,
=C2=A0 Please see my comments inline.

=C2=A0 /frank

-----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder [mailto:j.sch= oenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2021=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 12:= 15
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Fengchong (frank) <frank.fengchong@huawei.com><= br> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>= ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; <= a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [netmod] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: system configuration s= ync mechanism

On Tue, Aug 03, 2021 at 01:45:40AM +0000, Fengchong (frank) wrote:
> Hi andy and all.
>
> I don=E2=80=99t think get-data with origin can solve the issues below:=
>
>
> 1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Some leafs like interface type CAN NOT be= modified by user, but can be referenced by other config nodes(e.g. using l= eafref or occur in when/must). The validation will be fail if these leafs a= re not be configured by user now explicitly (we assume these leafs are opti= onal and no default value).

The interface type in the RFC 8343 module is config true. YANG does not all= ow you to refer to config false nodes in constraints that apply to config t= rue nodes. A core principle is that the content of a configuration datastor= e can be validated without knowing the actual state of the system.

Frank: yes, interface type is a config node, but it isn't allow to be m= odified. If a config node reference if-type, in order to validate data succ= essfully ,user must have to config if-type with determined value again. For= example, user must config if-type with 'ethernet' for ethernet0/0/= 1. I don't think it makes sense. The if-type has been created by system= , when running config is merged to <operational>, it can work and the= validation is successful. If you think running datastore is self-contained= , I will think the system configuration should be imported to running datas= tore automatically to ensure successful validation



I doubt another rewrite= of ietf-interfaces would gain much support.

There= are many objects that have user access restrictions that are not standardi= zed
with machine-readable statements.=C2=A0 I am interested in th= e 2 use cases that Balazs described.
The system does its own acce= ss control (not NACM) wrt/ these objects. The server just
rejects= the edit requests, even though the standard YANG indicates it should be wr= itable.
Some standard extensions to tag the data would help appli= cations better predict server behavior.

There is n= o way in YANG 1.1 to have a config=3Dtrue node reference config=3Dfalse in = the XPath.
(Well, we implement it but the developer has to enable= it).

I do not see the point of the system datasto= re if it contains config=3Dtrue nodes,
just so that XPath can ref= erence it.=C2=A0 I do not agree that it is useful or easy to implement,
especially since the contents of <system> are visible in <i= ntended>.=C2=A0 Representing the possible
instances is non-tri= vial (e.g. pattern allowed, not a fixed name, resulting in 6 million possib= le values).

If the system datastore contains confi= g=3Dfalse nodes, then you are talking about a rewrite
of the YANG= validation architecture and a new version of YANG.=C2=A0 IMO there is no n= eed for that.



Andy


> 2.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Some instances are generated by system, b= ut these instances can be referenced by other config nodes. The validation = must be fail if these instances are not be recreated by user explicitly now= .

Yes, a configuration datastore is self-contained. If a client wants to conf= igure the interface x, it has to define the interface x in the configuratio= n. Note that this should not be confused with a system generating an interf= ace x after probing the hardware. Note the difference between operational s= tate, applied config, and running config.

Frank: for example , predefined policies are provided by system, user confi= guration can reference these predefined policy directly. but because predef= ined policies are not configured by user explicitly, the validation will be= fail. If you want to get a successful validation , user MUST have to redef= ined the system predefined policies.
So, system predefined data are useless. I think it is unreasonable.



Let me add that the underlying model is that the client(s) have control ove= r the configuration. A system making ad-hoc changes to the config (even wit= h the best intentions) will be surprising. In this model, the only way to i= nject config into running on system boot is to have a client making changes= to running following the normal procedures - at least conceptually. This m= eans that conceptually the other clients need to be aware that there is a s= ystem client injecting configuration.

If you follow this logic, it seems wrong to define a system datastore that = is somehow magically merged into running - and it is not needed.

Frank: system configuration not only includes some instances generated on r= eboot time, but also includes the configuration when hardware is plugged in= , or a function is enabled (for example, in huawei's implementation, wh= en QOS function is enabled, many qos predefined policies are created by sys= tem) or a user-created list instance is created, some leafs' value will= be created by system. So , we need a system datastore to hold these config= uration.

> 3.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0User may need know what the original syst= em configuration is, if we get data from <operational>, you may get t= he modified system configuration.(for example, user modify or template is e= xpanded, or only active instances)

If you have multiple clients managing shared configuration, then yes it is = good if they are aware of what is going on. I am not sure yet that exposing= other clients intentions via additional datastores and defining merge mech= anisms and semantics is the way to go.

> I don=E2=80=99t care about whether system datastore is imported to run= ning or intended datastores. But I think if a config node reference a syste= m node, the validation (running or intended datastores) will be successful = even if the system node is not configured by user explicitly.

I am concerned about having to define what "is imported" means pr= ecisely and whether moving to a model multiple datastores have to be merged= before validation is the way to go. We already acknowledged that there are= template expansions in some implementations without working out how they w= ork.

> Especially on the client side,=C2=A0 if a client need validate all dat= a retrieved from server, the validation SHOULD be successful. If system con= figuration are not imported to running, at a minimum, the client needs to k= now what the original system configuration is. Another way is adding with-s= ystem-used parameter to get-config operation to retrieved all user configur= ation and system configuration referenced by user configuration.

Let me repeat, in the original model, the running configuration datastore i= s self-contained and can be validated without knowing additional datastores= .

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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On Aug = 3, 2021, at 6:01 AM, Michal Va=C5=A1ko <mvasko@cesnet.cz> = wrote:

Hi,

it seems the = "modify-subscription" RPC [1] includes a mandatory choice "target" [2]. = In effect, it is not possible to modify a subscription for it to be = without a filter. I do not understand the reason for this, is it = intentional or an error in the module?

Regards,
Michal

[1] = https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-53
[2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-48

_______________________________________________
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Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com





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charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, When you modify the subscription, you need to specify the subscription para= meters that you want to modify the subscription to - i.e. the subscription= parameters that you want to be in effect after modifying the subscription.= If you want nothing to be filtered, just specify a "null" filter. --- Alex From: netmod On Behalf Of Mahesh Jethanandani Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 10:14 AM To: Netconf Cc: netmod Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC modify-subscription [Cross posting to netconf] On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:01 AM, Michal Va=B9ko > wrote: Hi, it seems the "modify-subscription" RPC [1] includes a mandatory choice "tar= get" [2]. In effect, it is not possible to modify a subscription for it to = be without a filter. I do not understand the reason for this, is it intenti= onal or an error in the module? Regards, Michal [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-53 [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-48 _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --_000_BY5PR13MB37930C3A703FDC0816F65C19DBF09BY5PR13MB3793namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

When you modify the subscription, you need to specif= y the subscription parameters that you want to modify the subscription to &= #8211; i.e.  the subscription parameters that you want to be in effect= after modifying the subscription. If you want nothing to be filtered, just specify a “null” filter. 

--- Alex

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Mahesh Jethanandani
Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 10:14 AM
To: Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
Cc: netmod <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC modify-subsc= ription

 

[Cross posting to netconf]



On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:01 AM, Michal Va=B9ko <mvasko@cesnet.cz> wrote:

 

Hi,

it seems the "modify-subscription" RPC [1] includes a mandatory c= hoice "target" [2]. In effect, it is not possible to modify a sub= scription for it to be without a filter. I do not understand the reason for= this, is it intentional or an error in the module?

Regards,
Michal

[1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-53
[2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-48

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Mahesh Jethanandani=

 =

 =

 

 

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Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:45:22 +0000 From: Alexander Clemm To: Alexander Clemm , Mahesh Jethanandani , Netconf CC: netmod Thread-Topic: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC modify-subscription Thread-Index: AQHXiGevH16Bf98r9EObFWy1oneQIKtiBQyAgAARH2CAAALSoA== Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:45:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4f62-61093e00-23-572d3100@187206536> <6C7BBC61-5E9C-49AB-84C6-630CA1F0E141@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: futurewei.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;futurewei.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9ccc1574-830f-4dc8-180b-08d956aed99f x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR13MB2502: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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boundary="_000_BY5PR13MB3793BF27F7BAF2B4764D65B6DBF09BY5PR13MB3793namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR13MB3793.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9ccc1574-830f-4dc8-180b-08d956aed99f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Aug 2021 18:45:22.3453 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: FGT8f6Xt5Cxoeo0X6g0Ngu6BvdHfkfrii2Q6XUsqNPDjBUb891QHb2LI3oA6dCHhibm4FU3k+RDKHe40VPyDHA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR13MB2502 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC modify-subscription X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 18:45:32 -0000 --_000_BY5PR13MB3793BF27F7BAF2B4764D65B6DBF09BY5PR13MB3793namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am just rereading this (sorry, it's been a while since we wrote this). When you look at the modify-subscription RPC, the "case stream" itself is o= ptional, even if the choice "target" is mandatory. So, it is in fact optio= nal to include, no need to specify a null filter. (However, when present, = then parameters of the individual choices need to be present as well.) In = effect, you have a mandatory choice, but can select a case whose nodes are = optional. This is depicted in the Tree Diagram here: RFC 8639: Subscriptio= n to YANG Notifications (rfc-editor.org) What may also be confusing at first is the fact that the choice "target" it= self has "stream" as the single case (in RFC 8639). So, why put a choice t= here in the first place? The reason why it is there is so that it can be au= gmented, and RFC 8641 specifies a second case, namely "datastore". --- Alex From: netmod On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 11:21 AM To: Mahesh Jethanandani ; Netconf Cc: netmod Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC modify-subscription Hi, When you modify the subscription, you need to specify the subscription para= meters that you want to modify the subscription to - i.e. the subscription= parameters that you want to be in effect after modifying the subscription.= If you want nothing to be filtered, just specify a "null" filter. --- Alex From: netmod > On B= ehalf Of Mahesh Jethanandani Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 10:14 AM To: Netconf > Cc: netmod > Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC modify-subscription [Cross posting to netconf] On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:01 AM, Michal Va=B9ko > wrote: Hi, it seems the "modify-subscription" RPC [1] includes a mandatory choice "tar= get" [2]. In effect, it is not possible to modify a subscription for it to = be without a filter. I do not understand the reason for this, is it intenti= onal or an error in the module? Regards, Michal [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-53 [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-48 _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --_000_BY5PR13MB3793BF27F7BAF2B4764D65B6DBF09BY5PR13MB3793namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am just rereading this (sorry, it’s been a w= hile since we wrote this). 

 

When you look at the modify-subscription RPC, the &#= 8220;case stream” itself is optional, even if the choice “targe= t” is mandatory.  So, it is in fact optional to include, no need= to specify a null filter.  (However, when present, then parameters of the individual choices need to be present as well.)  In effect, yo= u have a mandatory choice, but can select a case whose nodes are optional.&= nbsp; This is depicted in the Tree Diagram here: RFC 8639: Subscr= iption to YANG Notifications (rfc-editor.org)

 

What may also be confusing at first is the fact that= the choice “target” itself has “stream” as the sin= gle case (in RFC 8639).  So, why put a choice there in the first place= ? The reason why it is there is so that it can be augmented, and RFC 8641 specifies a second case, namely “datastore”.

--- Alex

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm
Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 11:21 AM
To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>; Netconf <= ;netconf@ietf.org>
Cc: netmod <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC modify-subsc= ription

 

Hi,

When you modify the subscription, you need to specif= y the subscription parameters that you want to modify the subscription to &= #8211; i.e.  the subscription parameters that you want to be in effect= after modifying the subscription. If you want nothing to be filtered, just specify a “null” filter. 

--- Alex

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mahesh Jethanandani
Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 10:14 AM
To: Netconf <netconf@ietf.org= >
Cc: netmod <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC modify-subsc= ription

 

[Cross posting to netconf]

 

 

Hi,

it seems the "modify-subscription" RPC [1] includes a mandatory c= hoice "target" [2]. In effect, it is not possible to modify a sub= scription for it to be without a filter. I do not understand the reason for= this, is it intentional or an error in the module?

Regards,
Michal

[1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-53
[2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-48

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

 

Mahesh Jethanandani=

 =

 =

 

 

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with SMTP id bn18mr17380151ljb.325.1628048930457; Tue, 03 Aug 2021 20:48:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7a1838a8d89d4de7b36e08c66f6d7c0c@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <7a1838a8d89d4de7b36e08c66f6d7c0c@huawei.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 20:48:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: "maqiufang (A)" Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002d6af205c8b3ae73" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2021 03:48:59 -0000 --0000000000002d6af205c8b3ae73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I do not agree that a new datastore is needed to supposedly retrieve the system created nodes that exist (already supported by get-data) or the nodes that could be created by the server but do not currently exist. The element is way too simplistic to represent all the real-world possibilities. Current XPath procedures define several contexts for evaluating expressions= . None of these procedures support an additional datastore that is somehow merged with the other datastores for XPath purposes. YANG 1.1 does not support this proposal at all. Andy On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 8:34 PM maqiufang (A) wrote: > Hi, Andy, > > > > Apologize for my chiming in. Please see my reply inline. > > > > *From:* netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Andy > Bierman > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 4, 2021 1:11 AM > *To:* Fengchong (frank) > *Cc:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; > netmod@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: system configuration sync mec= hanism > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 12:34 AM Fengchong (frank) < > frank.fengchong@huawei.com> wrote: > > Hi juergen, > Please see my comments inline. > > /frank > > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder [mailto:j.= schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2021=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 1= 2:15 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Fengchong (frank) > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Andy Bierman ; Kent Watsen ; > Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; > netmod@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [netmod] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: system configuration= sync mechanism > > On Tue, Aug 03, 2021 at 01:45:40AM +0000, Fengchong (frank) wrote: > > Hi andy and all. > > > > I don=E2=80=99t think get-data with origin can solve the issues below: > > > > > > 1. Some leafs like interface type CAN NOT be modified by user, bu= t > can be referenced by other config nodes(e.g. using leafref or occur in > when/must). The validation will be fail if these leafs are not be > configured by user now explicitly (we assume these leafs are optional and > no default value). > > The interface type in the RFC 8343 module is config true. YANG does not > allow you to refer to config false nodes in constraints that apply to > config true nodes. A core principle is that the content of a configuratio= n > datastore can be validated without knowing the actual state of the system= . > > Frank: yes, interface type is a config node, but it isn't allow to be > modified. If a config node reference if-type, in order to validate data > successfully ,user must have to config if-type with determined value agai= n. > For example, user must config if-type with 'ethernet' for ethernet0/0/1. = I > don't think it makes sense. The if-type has been created by system, when > running config is merged to , it can work and the validation > is successful. If you think running datastore is self-contained, I will > think the system configuration should be imported to running datastore > automatically to ensure successful validation > > > > > > I doubt another rewrite of ietf-interfaces would gain much support. > > > > There are many objects that have user access restrictions that are not > standardized > > with machine-readable statements. I am interested in the 2 use cases tha= t > Balazs described. > > The system does its own access control (not NACM) wrt/ these objects. The > server just > > rejects the edit requests, even though the standard YANG indicates it > should be writable. > > Some standard extensions to tag the data would help applications better > predict server behavior. > > > > There is no way in YANG 1.1 to have a config=3Dtrue node reference > config=3Dfalse in the XPath. > > (Well, we implement it but the developer has to enable it). > > > > I do not see the point of the system datastore if it contains config=3Dtr= ue > nodes, > > just so that XPath can reference it. I do not agree that it is useful or > easy to implement, > > especially since the contents of are visible in . > Representing the possible > > instances is non-trivial (e.g. pattern allowed, not a fixed name, > resulting in 6 million possible values). > > *[Qiufang Ma] I don=E2=80=99 t see any system configuration handling beha= vior > standards in non-NMDA; NMDA defines that system configuration should only > be included in . I think it necessary to distinguish between > system configuration and operational state.* > > *Since there may be some requirements to reference the system > configuration, it doesn=E2=80=99t seem sensible to treat system configura= tion as > operational state. I don=E2=80=99t think retrieval from sho= uld be the > only way to get system configurations, given the definition of operationa= l > datastore.* > > *That is to say, contains all applied configurations which > go through configuration combination and template expansion. Only the > system configurations which take effect are included and will be tagged a= s > =E2=80=9Corigin=3Dintended=E2=80=9D once being referenced in . I= believe there would > be a need to get the pure system configurations regardless of whether bei= ng > applied or not.* > > > > If the system datastore contains config=3Dfalse nodes, then you are talki= ng > about a rewrite > > of the YANG validation architecture and a new version of YANG. IMO there > is no need for that. > > *[Qiufang Ma] I don=E2=80=99t think would contain config=3Dfalse= nodes. A > rewrite of the YANG validation architecture and a new version of YANG are > not our > intention. > * > > > > Best Regards, > > Qiufang Ma > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > 2. Some instances are generated by system, but these instances ca= n > be referenced by other config nodes. The validation must be fail if these > instances are not be recreated by user explicitly now. > > Yes, a configuration datastore is self-contained. If a client wants to > configure the interface x, it has to define the interface x in the > configuration. Note that this should not be confused with a system > generating an interface x after probing the hardware. Note the difference > between operational state, applied config, and running config. > > Frank: for example , predefined policies are provided by system, user > configuration can reference these predefined policy directly. but because > predefined policies are not configured by user explicitly, the validation > will be fail. If you want to get a successful validation , user MUST have > to redefined the system predefined policies. > So, system predefined data are useless. I think it is unreasonable. > > > > Let me add that the underlying model is that the client(s) have control > over the configuration. A system making ad-hoc changes to the config (eve= n > with the best intentions) will be surprising. In this model, the only way > to inject config into running on system boot is to have a client making > changes to running following the normal procedures - at least conceptuall= y. > This means that conceptually the other clients need to be aware that ther= e > is a system client injecting configuration. > > If you follow this logic, it seems wrong to define a system datastore tha= t > is somehow magically merged into running - and it is not needed. > > Frank: system configuration not only includes some instances generated on > reboot time, but also includes the configuration when hardware is plugged > in, or a function is enabled (for example, in huawei's implementation, wh= en > QOS function is enabled, many qos predefined policies are created by > system) or a user-created list instance is created, some leafs' value wil= l > be created by system. So , we need a system datastore to hold these > configuration. > > > 3. User may need know what the original system configuration is, > if we get data from , you may get the modified system > configuration.(for example, user modify or template is expanded, or only > active instances) > > If you have multiple clients managing shared configuration, then yes it i= s > good if they are aware of what is going on. I am not sure yet that exposi= ng > other clients intentions via additional datastores and defining merge > mechanisms and semantics is the way to go. > > > I don=E2=80=99t care about whether system datastore is imported to runn= ing or > intended datastores. But I think if a config node reference a system node= , > the validation (running or intended datastores) will be successful even i= f > the system node is not configured by user explicitly. > > I am concerned about having to define what "is imported" means precisely > and whether moving to a model multiple datastores have to be merged befor= e > validation is the way to go. We already acknowledged that there are > template expansions in some implementations without working out how they > work. > > > Especially on the client side, if a client need validate all data > retrieved from server, the validation SHOULD be successful. If system > configuration are not imported to running, at a minimum, the client needs > to know what the original system configuration is. Another way is adding > with-system-used parameter to get-config operation to retrieved all user > configuration and system configuration referenced by user configuration. > > Let me repeat, in the original model, the running configuration datastore > is self-contained and can be validated without knowing additional > datastores. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > --0000000000002d6af205c8b3ae73 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,


I do not agree that = a new datastore is needed to supposedly retrieve the
system creat= ed nodes that exist (already supported by get-data) or
the nodes = that could be created by the server but do not currently exist.
T= he=C2=A0 <config> element is way too simplistic to represent all the = real-world
possibilities.

Current XPath = procedures define several contexts for evaluating expressions.
No= ne of these procedures support an additional <system> datastore that = is somehow
merged with the other datastores for XPath purposes.= =C2=A0 YANG 1.1 does not support
this proposal at all.
=

Andy


=

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 8:34 PM maqiufang (A) <maqiufang1@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi, Andy,

=C2=A0

Apologize for my chiming in. Please see my r= eply inline.

=C2=A0

From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 1:11 AM
To: Fengchong (frank) <frank.fengchong@huawei.com>
Cc: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; netmod@ietf.or= g
Subject: Re: [netmod] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: system configuration s= ync mechanism

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 12= :34 AM Fengchong (frank) <frank.fengchong@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi juergen,
=C2=A0 Please see my comments inline.

=C2=A0 /frank

-----=E9=82= =AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----
=E5=8F=91=E4= =BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder [mailto:j.schoen= waelder@jacobs-university.de]
=E5=8F=91=E9= =80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2021=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 12:15
=E6=94=B6=E4= =BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Fengchong (frank) <frank.fengchong@huawei.com>
=E6=8A=84=E9= =80=81: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>; Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; netmod@ietf.org =E4=B8=BB=E9= =A2=98: Re: [netmod] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: system configuration sync mechanism

On Tue, Aug 03, 2021 at 01:45:40AM +0000, Fengchong (frank) wrote:
> Hi andy and all.
>
> I don=E2=80=99t think get-data with origin can solve the issues below:=
>
>
> 1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Some leafs like interface type CAN NOT be= modified by user, but can be referenced by other config nodes(e.g. using l= eafref or occur in when/must). The validation will be fail if these leafs a= re not be configured by user now explicitly (we assume these leafs are optional and no default value).

The interface type in the RFC 8343 module is config true. YANG does not all= ow you to refer to config false nodes in constraints that apply to config t= rue nodes. A core principle is that the content of a configuration datastor= e can be validated without knowing the actual state of the system.

Frank: yes, interface type is a config node, but it isn't allow to be m= odified. If a config node reference if-type, in order to validate data succ= essfully ,user must have to config if-type with determined value again. For= example, user must config if-type with 'ethernet' for ethernet0/0/1. I don't think it makes sense. Th= e if-type has been created by system, when running config is merged to <= operational>, it can work and the validation is successful. If you think= running datastore is self-contained, I will think the system configuration should be imported to running datastore automatic= ally to ensure successful validation

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I doubt another rewrite o= f ietf-interfaces would gain much support.

=C2=A0

There are many objects th= at have user access restrictions that are not standardized

with machine-readable sta= tements.=C2=A0 I am interested in the 2 use cases that Balazs described.=

The system does its own a= ccess control (not NACM) wrt/ these objects. The server just<= /p>

rejects the edit requests= , even though the standard YANG indicates it should be writable.<= /u>

Some standard extensions = to tag the data would help applications better predict server behavior.<= /u>

=C2=A0

There is no way in YANG 1= .1 to have a config=3Dtrue node reference config=3Dfalse in the XPath.

(Well, we implement it bu= t the developer has to enable it).

=C2=A0

I do not see the point of= the system datastore if it contains config=3Dtrue nodes,

just so that XPath can re= ference it.=C2=A0 I do not agree that it is useful or easy to implement,=

especially since the cont= ents of <system> are visible in <intended>.=C2=A0 Representing = the possible

instances is non-trivial = (e.g. pattern allowed, not a fixed name, resulting in 6 million possible va= lues).

[Qiufang Ma] I don=E2=80=99 t see any = system configuration handling behavior standards in non-NMDA; NMDA defines = that system configuration should only be included in <operational>. I think it necessary to distinguish between system= configuration and operational state.

Since there may be some requirements t= o reference the system configuration, it doesn=E2=80=99t seem sensible to t= reat system configuration as operational state. I don=E2=80=99t think retrieval from <operational> should be the onl= y way to get system configurations, given the definition of operational dat= astore.

That is to say, <operational> co= ntains all applied configurations which go through configuration combinatio= n and template expansion. Only the system configurations which take effect are included and will be tagged as =E2=80=9Corigin=3Dint= ended=E2=80=9D once being referenced in <running>. I believe there wo= uld be a need to get the pure system configurations regardless of whether b= eing applied or not.

=C2=A0

If the system datastore c= ontains config=3Dfalse nodes, then you are talking about a rewrite

of the YANG validation ar= chitecture and a new version of YANG.=C2=A0 IMO there is no need for that.<= u>

[Qiufang Ma] I don=E2=80=99t think <= ;system> would contain config=3Dfalse nodes. A rewrite of the YANG valid= ation architecture and a new version of YANG are not our intention.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best Regards,

Qiufang Ma

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

> 2.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Some instances are generated by system, but these instances can b= e referenced by other config nodes. The validation must be fail if these in= stances are not be recreated by user explicitly now.

Yes, a configuration datastore is self-contained. If a client wants to conf= igure the interface x, it has to define the interface x in the configuratio= n. Note that this should not be confused with a system generating an interf= ace x after probing the hardware. Note the difference between operational state, applied config, and running= config.

Frank: for example , predefined policies are provided by system, user confi= guration can reference these predefined policy directly. but because predef= ined policies are not configured by user explicitly, the validation will be= fail. If you want to get a successful validation , user MUST have to redefined the system predefined policies. So, system predefined data are useless. I think it is unreasonable.



Let me add that the underlying model is that the client(s) have control ove= r the configuration. A system making ad-hoc changes to the config (even wit= h the best intentions) will be surprising. In this model, the only way to i= nject config into running on system boot is to have a client making changes to running following the normal pr= ocedures - at least conceptually. This means that conceptually the other cl= ients need to be aware that there is a system client injecting configuratio= n.

If you follow this logic, it seems wrong to define a system datastore that = is somehow magically merged into running - and it is not needed.

Frank: system configuration not only includes some instances generated on r= eboot time, but also includes the configuration when hardware is plugged in= , or a function is enabled (for example, in huawei's implementation, wh= en QOS function is enabled, many qos predefined policies are created by system) or a user-created list instance= is created, some leafs' value will be created by system. So , we need = a system datastore to hold these configuration.

> 3.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0User may need know what the original syst= em configuration is, if we get data from <operational>, you may get t= he modified system configuration.(for example, user modify or template is e= xpanded, or only active instances)

If you have multiple clients managing shared configuration, then yes it is = good if they are aware of what is going on. I am not sure yet that exposing= other clients intentions via additional datastores and defining merge mech= anisms and semantics is the way to go.

> I don=E2=80=99t care about whether system datastore is imported to run= ning or intended datastores. But I think if a config node reference a syste= m node, the validation (running or intended datastores) will be successful = even if the system node is not configured by user explicitly.

I am concerned about having to define what "is imported" means pr= ecisely and whether moving to a model multiple datastores have to be merged= before validation is the way to go. We already acknowledged that there are= template expansions in some implementations without working out how they work.

> Especially on the client side,=C2=A0 if a client need validate all dat= a retrieved from server, the validation SHOULD be successful. If system con= figuration are not imported to running, at a minimum, the client needs to k= now what the original system configuration is. Another way is adding with-system-used parameter to get-config operati= on to retrieved all user configuration and system configuration referenced = by user configuration.

Let me repeat, in the original model, the running configuration datastore i= s self-contained and can be validated without knowing additional datastores= .

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jac= obs-university.de/>

--0000000000002d6af205c8b3ae73-- From nobody Tue Aug 3 23:17:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A6C3A0E7B; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 23:16:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cesnet.cz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DR4RyoozMSGX; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 23:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalendar.cesnet.cz (kalendar.cesnet.cz [IPv6:2001:718:1:1f:50:56ff:feee:34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4D763A0E7A; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 23:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kalendar.cesnet.cz (Postfix, from userid 110) id C12F760084; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 08:16:42 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cesnet.cz; s=kalendar; t=1628057802; bh=xcowt7pCtTlCAkcSVHKD7upg0H2maEyhxWZMgnEHlQM=; h=From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:To:Subject; b=LyhG2IiSoDp8e3GpnOaM0WwPduhTyr0stUL4eAvaGR/DvSgtUvLBlg04RMnD80zFg wlHp6M0DctZCzJxu3rYdguNbgbSyIPS846TD7niabb+kTQt/Tot6jG4Gsf0yRVAFB2 x8uvYxrzt6iGgxmXATRp8bhaGSBb2wOHKkFaMmE8= From: =?utf-8?q?Michal_Va=C5=A1ko?= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Forward: 2001:67c:1220:80c:b5:55d3:81d5:8636 Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2021 08:16:42 +0200 Cc: "Mahesh Jethanandani" , "Netconf" , "netmod" To: "Alexander Clemm" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4f62-610a3100-27-572d3100@123539460> User-Agent: SOGoMail 5.1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] =?utf-8?q?=5Bnetconf=5D__ietf-subscribed-notifications_?= =?utf-8?q?RPC_modify-subscription?= X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2021 06:16:54 -0000 Hi Alex, thanks for the reply and I see that I should have included more details= . I understand the design (but it was confusing at first) in general be= cause we have implemented YANG Push as well. However, I do not think > you have a mandatory choice, but can select a case whose nodes are op= tional applies. YANG 1.1 clearly defines [1] that some data nodes must exist i= n a mandatory choice. In this case it can be "stream-filter-name", "str= eam-subtree-filter", or "stream-xpath-filter" (clearly seen from the tr= ee snippet you referenced) but I think it should be allowed to not incl= ude any of these. Please, provide a valid example of "modify-subscripti= on" invocation that uses no filter, I could not come up with any. In my opinion, there should be a refine on the "subscription-policy-mod= ifiable" grouping in this case and change the mandatory to "false". Pro= vided that it should not be allowed to change the stream of a subscript= ion, which I guess it should not. Regards, Michal [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-7.9.4 > I am just rereading this (sorry, it's been a while since we wrote thi= s). > > When you look at the modify-subscription RPC, the "case stream" itsel= f is optional, even if the choice "target" is mandatory. So, it is in = fact optional to include, no need to specify a null filter. (However, = when present, then parameters of the individual choices need to be pres= ent as well.) In effect, you have a mandatory choice, but can select a= case whose nodes are optional. This is depicted in the Tree Diagram h= ere: RFC 8639: Subscription to YANG Notifications (rfc-editor.org) > > What may also be confusing at first is the fact that the choice "targ= et" itself has "stream" as the single case (in RFC 8639). So, why put = a choice there in the first place? The reason why it is there is so tha= t it can be augmented, and RFC 8641 specifies a second case, namely "da= tastore". > --- Alex > > From: netmod On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm > Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 11:21 AM > To: Mahesh Jethanandani ; Netconf > Cc: netmod > Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC modify-subscr= iption > > Hi, > When you modify the subscription, you need to specify the subscriptio= n parameters that you want to modify the subscription to - i.e. the su= bscription parameters that you want to be in effect after modifying the= subscription. If you want nothing to be filtered, just specify a "null= " filter. > --- Alex > > From: netmod = > On Behalf Of Mahesh Jethanandani > Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 10:14 AM > To: Netconf > > Cc: netmod > > Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC modify-subscr= iption > > [Cross posting to netconf] > > On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:01 AM, Michal Va=C5=A1ko > wrote: > > Hi, > > it seems the "modify-subscription" RPC [1] includes a mandatory choic= e "target" [2]. In effect, it is not possible to modify a subscription = for it to be without a filter. I do not understand the reason for this,= is it intentional or an error in the module? > > Regards, > Michal > > [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-53 > [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8639#page-48 > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com > > > > From nobody Wed Aug 4 05:34:52 2021 Return-Path: <0100017b1128b30f-fe4c9258-3392-476a-ae21-604d2a80f523-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F5CD3A1825 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 05:34:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KGZjiYR6QvtE for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 05:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F9093A1834 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 05:34:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1628080485; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:From:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:Message-Id:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:Feedback-ID; bh=x44rtLgSOeYG/HZf2/b8RNKpa7XVEfglkJaqURuR44o=; b=hzvxlAUub0auF0lahOzQ8sE+GuJ8R79eZb1NnYTuudaIwnoHwIdRx3LK6szIJLfx vyjYH+qZncvN8xajPisbn7lwWfYVrlE/k9LLDJPy60cyUUhp+rBICg6EBbLEX358tC4 W/kp/wXjpxQ72Kdlt4cbh+aY8lc2g7fw9KudOyG8= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Kent Watsen Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 12:34:45 +0000 Message-ID: <0100017b1128b30f-fe4c9258-3392-476a-ae21-604d2a80f523-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: Cc: "maqiufang (A)" , netmod@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Andy Bierman X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18F72) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2021.08.04-54.240.8.96 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2021 12:34:50 -0000 I am confused by the confusion ;) You all know that JUNOS implemented this concept before YANG was even a thin= g, right? =20 Admittedly, it=E2=80=99s not a =E2=80=9Cdatastore=E2=80=9C, but flexing the N= MDA is where we can do better.=20 A =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D mechanism could also work. The only downsid= e is the inability for a client to get only the system configuration, withou= t the rest of . =20 Please stop stating/suggesting =E2=80=9Cconfig true=E2=80=9D nodes are refer= encing =E2=80=9Cconfig false=E2=80=9D nodes, or that config is referencing o= perational state. There is no intention to break either of these tenants he= re. =20 I think that some folks just joined the conversation and may have missed out= when we covered all this before. =20 The draft needs to be updated to more clearly identify the goals.=20 K.=20 From nobody Wed Aug 4 06:19:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530993A1A8E for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 06:19:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DrcRdiGpKidi for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 06:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E1913A1A8A for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 06:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id f9-20020a05600c1549b029025b0f5d8c6cso3910482wmg.4 for ; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 06:19:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KTzz0akStGHyyqUtqAOdlKbiBZIvUgSyLsmiG2PVEwA=; b=0kf7RwTr0ogMLnVH1YdbdBtjS7KorKhvSA94+eFasIJWS2rg2tY+5tckHj7czrU42m b5x5DV/my60nGdCkOmbb6j9BinQlrGarkCmvwd/WMO5tftuZ7BuuAmVOg66boVCzy8Nh mWeYABGUkhZybkIA8sBLQS4+PcxU8qXRAliJRVVsXgG3uf0FRRpZZ+MJ0tij0gBegaEx s6Kv4D76ijPZ6Td2W7GCfloTZ7XPI6fAmfA3v1m0gGkJLpcscUlpTf/F77TRTO3imm0i pRsmsFH1CFUZdjoCiFeelY4504PRhgVtnfeS3v3KrpOYhjV/CqEOogVYYaS8u9NxFgB4 ZT9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KTzz0akStGHyyqUtqAOdlKbiBZIvUgSyLsmiG2PVEwA=; b=HJzaR65eFRQQkzolVygTRrLgP7lWjLNDK4cDp9S6S3OFLlzGXigkqFml0n16xjCNsm cqlQU5VCBrkNoSQom7+nTGsjIWxP2pFtkjkj7kXuAEEv7rsjMo8ZRGHDCBlW+XspfYX2 7hQasbHbAv3XUOCyKveydB9seHaY2e6Qi2h5bGj6V8EfJjGwNoMql6iJQUML7E8eOiw8 jBfVO4WeJxPgtn0qGhU2aHjxHWtANJb9kajgG53Gw9+nIAQEOCbq8bV73lVZgJebg2fq IvirjwJl06VZSrA6+jq6p0O5fsxSFFnpkZ/LCLTvDVMYMEUAKn1LsahyJbeLoylcGc4D DUjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533OP/kRdUhJCXoDieFVIUVMe9r2q1IvLTd/Cu4ZyF8gihP2rCSK TWWAvRtBqirW121qx/DLjszr7xXmw9Cy6YSCYHWYZQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxmbb2N2Ld9xvElASdA/buHJMT6ao1qaWvu4QLnuWucrUpsx6i1dUks+XukJcP6UbZ9sFGiWu1m9F37blbRiaw= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c7da:: with SMTP id z26mr9729458wmk.147.1628083189287; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 06:19:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0100017b1128b30f-fe4c9258-3392-476a-ae21-604d2a80f523-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <0100017b1128b30f-fe4c9258-3392-476a-ae21-604d2a80f523-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 06:19:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: "maqiufang (A)" , NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000029a54805c8bba843" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2021 13:19:56 -0000 --00000000000029a54805c8bba843 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 5:34 AM Kent Watsen wrote: > > I am confused by the confusion ;) > > You all know that JUNOS implemented this concept before YANG was even a > thing, right? > > Admittedly, it=E2=80=99s not a =E2=80=9Cdatastore=E2=80=9C, but flexing t= he NMDA is where we can > do better. > > A =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D mechanism could also work. The only down= side is the > inability for a client to get only the system configuration, without the > rest of . > > Please stop stating/suggesting =E2=80=9Cconfig true=E2=80=9D nodes are re= ferencing =E2=80=9Cconfig > false=E2=80=9D nodes, or that config is referencing operational state. = There is > no intention to break either of these tenants here. > > I think that some folks just joined the conversation and may have missed > out when we covered all this before. > > The draft needs to be updated to more clearly identify the goals. I strongly agree the draft could better explain the problem and the value of the solution, especially how this datastore is used to represent system values that are not in use. Since NMDA already provides a solution to retrieve the "system-only" nodes that are in use, there is no value in that part of the system datastore at all. Also some pointers to implementations of this system datastore would be helpful. I am confused because there was an assertion made that this system datastore was needed so that the nodes could be referenced in config XPath. This is not correct. The solution that Balazs outlined is quite common and much better and less disruptive than adding a new datastore. It is trivial to identify the user-write operations that are allowed (e.g. modify but not create, delete, or rename a physical interface). > > K. > > Andy --00000000000029a54805c8bba843 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 5:34 AM Kent W= atsen <kent@watsen.net> wrote:=

I am confused by the confusion=C2=A0 ;)

You all know that JUNOS implemented this concept before YANG was even a thi= ng, right?=C2=A0

Admittedly, it=E2=80=99s not a =E2=80=9Cdatastore=E2=80=9C, but flexing the= NMDA is where we can do better.

A =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D mechanism could also work.=C2=A0 The only d= ownside is the inability for a client to get only the system configuration,= without the rest of <running>.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

Please stop stating/suggesting =E2=80=9Cconfig true=E2=80=9D nodes are refe= rencing =E2=80=9Cconfig false=E2=80=9D nodes,=C2=A0 or that config is refer= encing operational state.=C2=A0 There is no intention to break either of th= ese tenants here.=C2=A0

I think that some folks just joined the conversation and may have missed ou= t when we covered all this before.=C2=A0

The draft needs to be updated to more clearly identify the goals.


I strongly agree the draft could bett= er explain the problem and the value of the solution, especially how
<= div>this datastore is used to represent system values that are not in use. = Since NMDA already
provides a solution to retrieve the "syst= em-only" nodes that are in use, there is no value in that part
of the system datastore at all.

Also some point= ers to implementations of this system datastore would be helpful.

I am confused because there was an assertion made that this= system datastore was needed
so that the nodes could be reference= d in config XPath.=C2=A0 This is not correct.=C2=A0 The solution that Balaz= s
outlined is quite common and much better and less disruptive th= an adding a new datastore.
It is trivial to identify the user-wri= te operations that are allowed (e.g. modify but not create, delete,
or rename a physical interface).



K.


Andy
=C2=A0
 --00000000000029a54805c8bba843-- From nobody Wed Aug 4 06:40:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD1343A17AD for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 06:40:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jacobsuniversity.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fQnl_jAX3X7R for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 06:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR03-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr50051.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.5.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E164E3A1976 for ; 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System configuration flows into but not upwards into . Over the years, we discussed several corner cases (including things like configuring a new user and the system automatically assigns an unused uid, which afterwards needs to be kept stable). While there are for sure tricky corner cases, I am not convinced that the model defined in RFC 8342 for the general cases is wrong and that merging a new system datastore into is the right approach. If people want to change the model documented in RFC 8342, then they should make an explicit statement about this and provide strong reasons that the model is flawed or incomplete. Note that the model does allow having a system client merging config into (ideally controlled by an ACM so that such a client can be turned off if it leads to surprises). /js On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 12:34:45PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > I am confused by the confusion ;) > > You all know that JUNOS implemented this concept before YANG was even a thing, right? > > Admittedly, it’s not a “datastore“, but flexing the NMDA is where we can do better. > > A “with-system” mechanism could also work. The only downside is the inability for a client to get only the system configuration, without the rest of . > > Please stop stating/suggesting “config true” nodes are referencing “config false” nodes, or that config is referencing operational state. There is no intention to break either of these tenants here. > > I think that some folks just joined the conversation and may have missed out when we covered all this before. > > The draft needs to be updated to more clearly identify the goals. > > K. > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Aug 4 06:59:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99EB13A1B82 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 06:59:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E2_zjH5I8Vz1 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 06:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 543863A171E for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 06:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id y34so4581578lfa.8 for ; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 06:59:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=eBvsHjBPCt67BUP/3ViAohO6DUOE2miDFJblK5ZTnfo=; b=XQJyX2kFvpc3Hf0l+52GL8mCDUbggbJdUai6obSTZXWXRWBveynhBaCDoOxeI6LL7p 8CA5H2W20kzacUtUFF5ShKa+t62C6UamVckptBCIlsE7q/wc023ocKQSLztXuFrgVGhS 9JqtCbg00MgqnWDSdEXWGwIdYwS8rSotebFqWWJ8jCQofP6AMzjyvUy0Kc19xnpp/nZf 2InAZ5en9GJec7t7J7qGoTZK6/zDV0lcmTZ9DH90pAEun+yVGnd2S3U6xmN3ReqcO5bR aawip0rUWw3bEcPMzn7CW7+ArU8DZgYH+I97/NGSUsVrYODY6nuGbR5U1LHHR90a4olz dmNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=eBvsHjBPCt67BUP/3ViAohO6DUOE2miDFJblK5ZTnfo=; b=clvSQygXnE9uzfsaEgRbx0iNlzA5lSZo4gmQKvGhns8fUtIFmYV1WLkWiNH8FHzlWA L7XWSeAbIZ7CKqDUkGfpZ7cUetwe7QKumclRA6K1h8ZHZkHX8RGZLN1e6G5FBLcp83gM t8Xn2+haWqK7h08BA0xbe3h6/C6JTY8tcolIi4Nq67FkCZu4oegrUT25NZL20N5WMO+w EfAUWfd301CuF3gCbKhXOFIhXaRiH9bQ5lDB7Dv0dFcSSjhKVgdSyhbZ8xvUrrToxNbc 3D9CKRWI9IceENiChC9QfqJahc7tcGw28ViATprFCN1OyWFPfwA6FZ5nOk4GmYGCVWTt E0cQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5315n66GtqmnWTlKNqXMmTcKgyOn6DHrdG+HEmN5k87dOctZxzXg lBCPsGoN5mBy+cS8TUXs9GsZFHY15mh8JHzQKP4ZUg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxmUmp7TbIlNDTYZJZGtim7tQFStkjgEXlcbGhvTYBhxZdsbUoB1sSpxLNrc1yDFus4RWPYIymiomCj7El4Te0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3253:: with SMTP id c19mr20502815lfr.568.1628085546899; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 06:59:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0100017b1128b30f-fe4c9258-3392-476a-ae21-604d2a80f523-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20210804133956.p73si5f63t4esmcj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20210804133956.p73si5f63t4esmcj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 06:58:55 -0700 Message-ID: To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Kent Watsen , Andy Bierman , NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000aff43405c8bc34f0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2021 13:59:16 -0000 --000000000000aff43405c8bc34f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 6:39 AM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > The figure in RFC 8342 section 5 documents what was agreed upon > before. System configuration flows into but not upwards > into . Over the years, we discussed several corner cases > (including things like configuring a new user and the system > automatically assigns an unused uid, which afterwards needs to be kept > stable). While there are for sure tricky corner cases, I am not > convinced that the model defined in RFC 8342 for the general cases is > wrong and that merging a new system datastore into is the > right approach. If people want to change the model documented in RFC > 8342, then they should make an explicit statement about this and > provide strong reasons that the model is flawed or incomplete. > > Note that the model does allow having a system client merging config > into (ideally controlled by an ACM so that such a client can > be turned off if it leads to surprises). > This is a solved problem in proprietary ways. It is simple to treat system config as an access control issue. I am quite concerned that NMDA is getting extended in ways that lead to confusion and poor interoperability. Adding a new datastore is very serious. IMO ANY new datastore (even factory default) should be standardized in a new version of NMDA (replacing RFC 8342). A datastore has a lot of baggage - YANG library - YANG XPath evaluation - subtree and XPath filtered retrieval - usage in RPC operations (ds:datastore data type parameter) Every time a datastore is added, all the existing RPC operations that use datastores need to be clarified wrt/ support for the new datastore. (Of course this is never done, leading to lots of interoperability issues) I am quite confused by the XPath discussions because XPath can only access existing nodes (i.e. the "accessible tree") https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-6.4.1 So what does it mean for the system datastore to contain possible values that cannot be represented in ? The accessible tree cannot include these values, so XPath-based validation cannot use them. > /js > > Andy > On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 12:34:45PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > I am confused by the confusion ;) > > > > You all know that JUNOS implemented this concept before YANG was even a > thing, right? > > > > Admittedly, it=E2=80=99s not a =E2=80=9Cdatastore=E2=80=9C, but flexing= the NMDA is where we can > do better. > > > > A =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D mechanism could also work. The only do= wnside is the > inability for a client to get only the system configuration, without the > rest of . > > > > Please stop stating/suggesting =E2=80=9Cconfig true=E2=80=9D nodes are = referencing > =E2=80=9Cconfig false=E2=80=9D nodes, or that config is referencing oper= ational state. > There is no intention to break either of these tenants here. > > > > I think that some folks just joined the conversation and may have misse= d > out when we covered all this before. > > > > The draft needs to be updated to more clearly identify the goals. > > > > K. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --000000000000aff43405c8bc34f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 6:39 AM J=C3= =BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
The figure in RFC 8342 s= ection 5 documents what was agreed upon
before. System configuration flows into <operational> but not upwards=
into <running>. Over the years, we discussed several corner cases
(including things like configuring a new user and the system
automatically assigns an unused uid, which afterwards needs to be kept
stable). While there are for sure tricky corner cases, I am not
convinced that the model defined in RFC 8342 for the general cases is
wrong and that merging a new system datastore into <running> is the right approach. If people want to change the model documented in RFC
8342, then they should make an explicit statement about this and
provide strong reasons that the model is flawed or incomplete.

Note that the model does allow having a system client merging config
into <running> (ideally controlled by an ACM so that such a client ca= n
be turned off if it leads to surprises).


This is a solved problem in proprietary ways.=C2=A0 It is = simple to treat system config
as an access control issue.=C2=A0

I am quite concerned that NMDA is getting extended = in ways that lead to
confusion and poor interoperability.=C2=A0 A= dding a new datastore is very serious.
IMO ANY new datastore (eve= n factory default) should be standardized in
a new version of NMD= A (replacing RFC 8342).

A datastore has a lot of b= aggage
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- YANG library
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- YANG = XPath evaluation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- subtree and XPath filtered retrie= val
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- usage in RPC operations (ds:datastore data typ= e parameter)

Every time a datastore is added, all = the existing RPC operations that use
datastores need to be clarif= ied wrt/ support for the new datastore.
(Of course this is never = done, leading to lots of interoperability issues)

= I am quite confused by the XPath discussions because XPath can only
access existing nodes (i.e. the "accessible tree")
<= a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-6.4.1">http= s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-6.4.1
=C2= =A0
So what does it mean for the system datastore to contain poss= ible values that
cannot be represented in <operational>? Th= e accessible tree cannot include
these values, so XPath-based val= idation cannot use them.



/js



Andy

=C2=A0
On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 12:34:45PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
>
> I am confused by the confusion=C2=A0 ;)
>
> You all know that JUNOS implemented this concept before YANG was even = a thing, right?=C2=A0
>
> Admittedly, it=E2=80=99s not a =E2=80=9Cdatastore=E2=80=9C, but flexin= g the NMDA is where we can do better.
>
> A =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D mechanism could also work.=C2=A0 The o= nly downside is the inability for a client to get only the system configura= tion, without the rest of <running>.=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
> Please stop stating/suggesting =E2=80=9Cconfig true=E2=80=9D nodes are= referencing =E2=80=9Cconfig false=E2=80=9D nodes,=C2=A0 or that config is = referencing operational state.=C2=A0 There is no intention to break either = of these tenants here.=C2=A0
>
> I think that some folks just joined the conversation and may have miss= ed out when we covered all this before.=C2=A0
>
> The draft needs to be updated to more clearly identify the goals.
>
> K.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
--
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Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
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charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR13MB3793.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d0bdefaa-07aa-4b30-6c64-08d9576bb417 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Aug 2021 17:17:14.2006 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: +mSgiQ1KCDR+4JSjr5iKajPKvqOEDxKm6ovQotHB7YbdnQWIaE2GpAYbIXZoIXOCc9D4+UKr85v57jIN1vDFHA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR13MB2614 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [netconf] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC modify-subscription X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2021 17:17:22 -0000 Hi Michal, I think in part there is a YANG question here - can you define a mandatory = choice, for which you have multiple cases, each of which (or even, just one= of which) contains only nodes that are optional - which allows for the sce= nario that despite a mandatory choice, there are no data nodes from that ch= oice included. I think the answer here is yes.=20 As for the use of this in modify-subscription, one question is why you woul= d invoke this in the first place if you didn't want to modify something - s= o generally you would include a data node anyway. One possibility to do th= is without changing the filter would be if you wanted to simply change the = stop time, which is outside the target choice. Now, could we have made a d= ifferent design choice to make the target choice optional? Possibly, but in= the end I don't think it matters as at the end of the day you can make the= same modifications. (Or is there something that you think this does not a= llow you to do, which it should be able to?) So, I do not think this const= itutes an error in the module, but a design choice that IMHO at this point = should simply be accepted. =20 Kind regards -- Alex -----Original Message----- From: Michal Va=B9ko =20 Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 11:17 PM To: Alexander Clemm Cc: Mahesh Jethanandani ; Netconf ; netmod Subject: Re: [netconf] [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC modify-su= bscription Hi Alex, thanks for the reply and I see that I should have included more details. I = understand the design (but it was confusing at first) in general because we= have implemented YANG Push as well. However, I do not think > you have a mandatory choice, but can select a case whose nodes are=20 > optional applies. YANG 1.1 clearly defines [1] that some data nodes must exist in a = mandatory choice. In this case it can be "stream-filter-name", "stream-subt= ree-filter", or "stream-xpath-filter" (clearly seen from the tree snippet y= ou referenced) but I think it should be allowed to not include any of these= . Please, provide a valid example of "modify-subscription" invocation that = uses no filter, I could not come up with any. In my opinion, there should be a refine on the "subscription-policy-modifia= ble" grouping in this case and change the mandatory to "false". Provided th= at it should not be allowed to change the stream of a subscription, which I= guess it should not. Regards, Michal [1] https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdat= atracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Frfc7950%23section-7.9.4&data=3D04%7C01= %7Calex%40futurewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8ff2a3b240= 189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ= WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&= sdata=3DJNWOC8ym9j%2FNJ90oSRNyHCMSdEv%2FoLDru%2FRnsUozFGo%3D&reserved= =3D0 > I am just rereading this (sorry, it's been a while since we wrote this). >=20 > When you look at the modify-subscription RPC, the "case stream" itself=20 > is optional, even if the choice "target" is mandatory. So, it is in=20 > fact optional to include, no need to specify a null filter. (However,=20 > when present, then parameters of the individual choices need to be=20 > present as well.) In effect, you have a mandatory choice, but can=20 > select a case whose nodes are optional. This is depicted in the Tree=20 > Diagram here: RFC 8639: Subscription to YANG Notifications=20 > (rfc-editor.org) ttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.rfc-editor.org%2Frfc%2Frfc8639%23page-16&data=3D04% > 7C01%7Calex%40futurewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8 > ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CT > WFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI > 6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DSVPLR4GRtZC6U%2FaJu5c0Yf9jhRjHocOhtRp7Mtzt6tM > %3D&reserved=3D0> >=20 > What may also be confusing at first is the fact that the choice "target" = itself has "stream" as the single case (in RFC 8639). So, why put a choice= there in the first place? The reason why it is there is so that it can be = augmented, and RFC 8641 specifies a second case, namely "datastore". > --- Alex >=20 > From: netmod On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm > Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 11:21 AM > To: Mahesh Jethanandani ; Netconf=20 > > Cc: netmod > Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC=20 > modify-subscription >=20 > Hi, > When you modify the subscription, you need to specify the subscription pa= rameters that you want to modify the subscription to - i.e. the subscripti= on parameters that you want to be in effect after modifying the subscriptio= n. If you want nothing to be filtered, just specify a "null" filter. > --- Alex >=20 > From: netmod >=20 > On Behalf Of Mahesh Jethanandani > Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 10:14 AM > To: Netconf > > Cc: netmod > > Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC=20 > modify-subscription >=20 > [Cross posting to netconf] >=20 > On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:01 AM, Michal Va=B9ko > wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > it seems the "modify-subscription" RPC [1] includes a mandatory choice "t= arget" [2]. In effect, it is not possible to modify a subscription for it t= o be without a filter. I do not understand the reason for this, is it inten= tional or an error in the module? >=20 > Regards, > Michal >=20 > [1]=20 > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww. > rfc-editor.org%2Frfc%2Frfc8639%23page-53&data=3D04%7C01%7Calex%40fut > urewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am > p;sdata=3DAf%2FoGGiRESrrd4PzdNp5PvII4%2BQ54rwToLe1%2FrvJH%2BE%3D&res > erved=3D0 F%2Fwww.rfc-editor.org%2Frfc%2Frfc8639%23page-53&data=3D04%7C01%7Cal > ex%40futurewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8ff2a3b240 > 189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3 > d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7 > C1000&sdata=3DAf%2FoGGiRESrrd4PzdNp5PvII4%2BQ54rwToLe1%2FrvJH%2BE%3D > &reserved=3D0> [2]=20 > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww. > rfc-editor.org%2Frfc%2Frfc8639%23page-48&data=3D04%7C01%7Calex%40fut > urewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am > p;sdata=3DpsIuBfJ%2BIoKGcky%2F8LJZmK1MtKhaUPynUtO1Y7vODdk%3D&reserve > d=3D0 www.rfc-editor.org%2Frfc%2Frfc8639%23page-48&data=3D04%7C01%7Calex%4 > 0futurewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c > 753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8ey > JWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C100 > 0&sdata=3DpsIuBfJ%2BIoKGcky%2F8LJZmK1MtKhaUPynUtO1Y7vODdk%3D&res > erved=3D0> >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww. > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fnetmod&data=3D04%7C01%7Calex%40futur > ewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoi > MC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000& > sdata=3D5ywkEvUGzZK9Bn6woKv3HqATU1eYsTYGYHW%2FEnl9FxY%3D&reserved=3D0= < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww. > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fnetmod&data=3D04%7C01%7Calex%40futur > ewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoi > MC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000& > sdata=3D5ywkEvUGzZK9Bn6woKv3HqATU1eYsTYGYHW%2FEnl9FxY%3D&reserved=3D0= > >=20 > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com >=20 >=20 >=20 > From nobody Thu Aug 5 01:11:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595803A15D7; 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Thu, 5 Aug 2021 10:11:02 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cesnet.cz; s=kalendar; t=1628151062; bh=0Qhhrz2jP1UQSmaZiAgKJbKS3bAZmn0spacJha0Pqm0=; h=From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:To:Subject; b=iXj6QdMewRb+fhSGlFzD7ExKo/XVECaZRt1bCPNiuUW25aFI1Dlg7/zOEZ/CUvJmt VnZx/0eVm1oQT4wjZKCMsYCtvjyZn8xN/y8kidYG14uyczw8q0yGHPoJLJzX981vsM npMK4dfcV/zRI3eImoidpiVFipgiaMR/xi5TN+UA= From: =?utf-8?q?Michal_Va=C5=A1ko?= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Forward: 2001:67c:1220:80c:b5:55d3:81d5:8636 Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 10:11:02 +0200 Cc: "Mahesh Jethanandani" , "Netconf" , "netmod" To: "Alexander Clemm" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <79a4-610b9d00-5f-54377380@80566603> User-Agent: SOGoMail 5.1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] =?utf-8?q?=5Bnetconf=5D__ietf-subscribed-notifications_?= =?utf-8?q?RPC_modify-subscription?= X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 08:11:22 -0000 Hi Alex, > I think in part there is a YANG question here - can you define a mand= atory choice, for which you have multiple cases, each of which (or even= , just one of which) contains only nodes that are optional - which allo= ws for the scenario that despite a mandatory choice, there are no data = nodes from that choice included. I think the answer here is yes. Per the reference to the YANG 1.1 specification I have included in my l= ast email I am quite certain the answer is no, you cannot have a mandat= ory choice without any data nodes. That is exactly what is written in t= he RFC: If "mandatory" is "true", at least one node from exactly one of the choice's case branches MUST exist. > As for the use of this in modify-subscription, one question is why yo= u would invoke this in the first place if you didn't want to modify som= ething - so generally you would include a data node anyway. One possib= ility to do this without changing the filter would be if you wanted to = simply change the stop time, which is outside the target choice. Yes, that is exactly the use-case. Are you saying changing the stop-tim= e of a subscription without a filter is not supported? > Now, could we have made a different design choice to make the target= choice optional? Possibly, but in the end I don't think it matters as = at the end of the day you can make the same modifications. (Or is ther= e something that you think this does not allow you to do, which it shou= ld be able to?) See my previous comment. > So, I do not think this constitutes an error in the module, but a des= ign choice that IMHO at this point should simply be accepted. Not sure why I am the first to bring this up, but I do think the design= includes an error or is simply based on wrong YANG-related assumptions= . Regards, Michal > > Kind regards > -- Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michal Va=C5=A1ko > Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 11:17 PM > To: Alexander Clemm > Cc: Mahesh Jethanandani ; Netconf ; netmod > Subject: Re: [netconf] [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC mod= ify-subscription > > Hi Alex, > > thanks for the reply and I see that I should have included more detai= ls. I understand the design (but it was confusing at first) in general = because we have implemented YANG Push as well. However, I do not think > > > you have a mandatory choice, but can select a case whose nodes are = > > optional > > applies. YANG 1.1 clearly defines [1] that some data nodes must exist= in a mandatory choice. In this case it can be "stream-filter-name", "s= tream-subtree-filter", or "stream-xpath-filter" (clearly seen from the = tree snippet you referenced) but I think it should be allowed to not in= clude any of these. Please, provide a valid example of "modify-subscrip= tion" invocation that uses no filter, I could not come up with any. > > In my opinion, there should be a refine on the "subscription-policy-m= odifiable" grouping in this case and change the mandatory to "false". P= rovided that it should not be allowed to change the stream of a subscri= ption, which I guess it should not. > > Regards, > Michal > > [1] https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F= %2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Frfc7950%23section-7.9.4&data= =3D04%7C01%7Calex%40futurewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C= 0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown= %7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJX= VCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DJNWOC8ym9j%2FNJ90oSRNyHCMSdEv%2FoLDru%2FR= nsUozFGo%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > I am just rereading this (sorry, it's been a while since we wrote t= his). > > > > When you look at the modify-subscription RPC, the "case stream" its= elf > > is optional, even if the choice "target" is mandatory. So, it is i= n > > fact optional to include, no need to specify a null filter. (Howev= er, > > when present, then parameters of the individual choices need to be = > > present as well.) In effect, you have a mandatory choice, but can = > > select a case whose nodes are optional. This is depicted in the Tr= ee > > Diagram here: RFC 8639: Subscription to YANG Notifications > > (rfc-editor.org) > ttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.rfc-editor.org%2Frfc%2Frfc8639%23page-16&data=3D= 04% > > 7C01%7Calex%40futurewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0f= ee8 > > ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%= 7CT > > WFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJX= VCI > > 6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DSVPLR4GRtZC6U%2FaJu5c0Yf9jhRjHocOhtRp7Mt= zt6tM > > %3D&reserved=3D0> > > > > What may also be confusing at first is the fact that the choice "ta= rget" itself has "stream" as the single case (in RFC 8639). So, why pu= t a choice there in the first place? The reason why it is there is so t= hat it can be augmented, and RFC 8641 specifies a second case, namely "= datastore". > > --- Alex > > > > From: netmod On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm= > > Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 11:21 AM > > To: Mahesh Jethanandani ; Netconf > > > > Cc: netmod > > Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC > > modify-subscription > > > > Hi, > > When you modify the subscription, you need to specify the subscript= ion parameters that you want to modify the subscription to - i.e. the = subscription parameters that you want to be in effect after modifying t= he subscription. If you want nothing to be filtered, just specify a "nu= ll" filter. > > --- Alex > > > > From: netmod > > > On Behalf Of Mahesh Jethanandani > > Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 10:14 AM > > To: Netconf > > > Cc: netmod > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-subscribed-notifications RPC > > modify-subscription > > > > [Cross posting to netconf] > > > > On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:01 AM, Michal Va=C5=A1ko > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > it seems the "modify-subscription" RPC [1] includes a mandatory cho= ice "target" [2]. In effect, it is not possible to modify a subscriptio= n for it to be without a filter. I do not understand the reason for thi= s, is it intentional or an error in the module? > > > > Regards, > > Michal > > > > [1] > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2= Fwww. > > rfc-editor.org%2Frfc%2Frfc8639%23page-53&data=3D04%7C01%7Calex%= 40fut > > urewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c7= 53a > > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ= WIj > > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000= &am > > p;sdata=3DAf%2FoGGiRESrrd4PzdNp5PvII4%2BQ54rwToLe1%2FrvJH%2BE%3D&am= p;res > > erved=3D0 > F%2Fwww.rfc-editor.org%2Frfc%2Frfc8639%23page-53&data=3D04%7C01= %7Cal > > ex%40futurewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8ff2a3b= 240 > > 189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZ= sb3 > > d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3= D%7 > > C1000&sdata=3DAf%2FoGGiRESrrd4PzdNp5PvII4%2BQ54rwToLe1%2FrvJH%2= BE%3D > > &reserved=3D0> [2] > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2= Fwww. > > rfc-editor.org%2Frfc%2Frfc8639%23page-48&data=3D04%7C01%7Calex%= 40fut > > urewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c7= 53a > > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ= WIj > > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000= &am > > p;sdata=3DpsIuBfJ%2BIoKGcky%2F8LJZmK1MtKhaUPynUtO1Y7vODdk%3D&re= serve > > d=3D0 > www.rfc-editor.org%2Frfc%2Frfc8639%23page-48&data=3D04%7C01%7Ca= lex%4 > > 0futurewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8ff2a3b2401= 89c > > 753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d= 8ey > > JWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C= 100 > > 0&sdata=3DpsIuBfJ%2BIoKGcky%2F8LJZmK1MtKhaUPynUtO1Y7vODdk%3D&am= p;res > > erved=3D0> > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2= Fwww. > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fnetmod&data=3D04%7C01%7Calex%40= futur > > ewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753= a1d > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWI= joi > > MC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&a= mp; > > sdata=3D5ywkEvUGzZK9Bn6woKv3HqATU1eYsTYGYHW%2FEnl9FxY%3D&reserv= ed=3D0< > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2= Fwww. > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fnetmod&data=3D04%7C01%7Calex%40= futur > > ewei.com%7Cbe2fa9745ccb473b902108d9570f6ea0%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753= a1d > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637636546076357311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWI= joi > > MC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&a= mp; > > sdata=3D5ywkEvUGzZK9Bn6woKv3HqATU1eYsTYGYHW%2FEnl9FxY%3D&reserv= ed=3D0> > > > > Mahesh Jethanandani > > mjethanandani@gmail.com > > > > > > > > From nobody Thu Aug 5 09:41:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD0C3A18DC; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 09:41:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FUMbQwWJjMpV; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 09:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3C0A3A18FD; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 09:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DDA9389B3; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 12:46:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 7C5cU5M0rZig; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 12:46:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51004389AB; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 12:46:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A945C963; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 12:41:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: netmod@ietf.org cc: anima@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] IANA managed YANG modules X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 16:41:57 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In revising RFC8366, I am using RFC7224 as a model. In order to explain this model to others, I find myself coming up short in documentation for process. I found nothing in RFC6020. I found: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6087.html#section-3.5 suggestive, but not specific about creating an IANA managed YANG module. Can someone point me at some specific text/explanation? Maybe there is a PHB version? Maybe just an email from the dawn of YANG-ti= me. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmEMFMoACgkQgItw+93Q 3WV8Qwf/ewLjVl992YwuDU3Gk7mi+vK22Pfplq7a/7RIVkeILD8PBPDYQHDnRTqO RnJXGPUcFOI3rSW5fmH/LWXH5IuQgljUseFOOqLZyS7bUz2yGBQQq9jX5eb+19DL yKb/jJZc+04DDszuIsuCZiUqTy6Nd2OlbmE5UpPkYqOTEmQDPbvi/VKwudAona8I RDKpV3f9F2O9n+zRHICWOLLkaJ/df1GDdjmGdZ+jL9eK7Ox5qF7kO4rTpV+vSK8/ Yh5LoCCl5ktwPlAJ9R4E2UJ3B2dfyhWIUeEdn7UMXjuhn8pMZKYIIIL0dKKthTZw iu5pJ+dIRf/IDOf9VU01a1nvzYfaPg== =MZ5g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Aug 5 23:27:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4080F3A2015; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 23:27:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Y0Dsgk6QVZb; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 23:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [217.31.204.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76F823A2011; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 23:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [IPv6:2a01:5e0:29:ffff:fc73:fa64:57e6:2115]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8EE9B142708; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 08:27:22 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Michael Richardson , netmod@ietf.org Cc: anima@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <14573.1628181706@localhost> References: <14573.1628181706@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: Michael Richardson , netmod@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 08:27:22 +0200 Message-ID: <87bl6bxf3p.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.2 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IANA managed YANG modules X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 06:27:34 -0000 Michael Richardson writes: > In revising RFC8366, I am using RFC7224 as a model. > In order to explain this model to others, I find myself coming up short in > documentation for process. > I found nothing in RFC6020. Exactly what information are you missing? Lada > > I found: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6087.html#section-3.5 > > suggestive, but not specific about creating an IANA managed YANG module. > > Can someone point me at some specific text/explanation? > Maybe there is a PHB version? Maybe just an email from the dawn of YANG-= time. > > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consul= ting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide > > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --=20 Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Fri Aug 6 02:30:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C42D63A268E for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 02:30:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 934wF3KtVJeM for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 02:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FD4D3A268C for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 02:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4Gh0YV3Hj8z6BCTg for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 17:29:34 +0800 (CST) Received: from dggeme717-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.113) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.2176.2; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:29:52 +0200 Received: from dggeme770-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.116) by dggeme717-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.113) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2176.2; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 17:29:50 +0800 Received: from dggeme770-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.8.68.58]) by dggeme770-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.8.68.58]) with mapi id 15.01.2176.012; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 17:29:50 +0800 From: "maqiufang (A)" To: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Question on Subtree Filtering Usage Example Thread-Index: AdeKkhJTMf6WPUJPRTOwirelz/r0Vg== Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 09:29:50 +0000 Message-ID: <271e21e218bf42a991f5cb6ba0b6161d@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.123.93] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_271e21e218bf42a991f5cb6ba0b6161dhuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Question on Subtree Filtering Usage Example X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 09:30:02 -0000 --_000_271e21e218bf42a991f5cb6ba0b6161dhuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, all: In RFC6241 section 6.4(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6241#sectio= n-6.4), several single subtree filtering examples are given. I am wondering whether we can select multiple elements within the S= ubtree. Note that we also assume "users" parent element is the container with prese= nce substatement. Here is the RPC request message with specific subtree filtering : I am wondering what RPC response will look like? It will respond with null = or it will respond as follows: root superuser fred admin Best Regards, Qiufang Ma --_000_271e21e218bf42a991f5cb6ba0b6161dhuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, all:

 

In RFC6241 section 6.4(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/h= tml/rfc6241#section-6.4), several single subtree filtering examples are= given.

I am wondering whether we can select multiple elemen= ts within the <users> Subtree.

Note that we also assume "users" parent el= ement is the container with presence substatement.

Here is the RPC request message with specific subtre= e filtering :

     <rpc message-id=3D"= 101"

        &nbs= p; xmlns=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">

       <get-config&= gt;

         <= ;source>

        &nbs= p;  <running/>

         <= ;/source>

         <= ;filter type=3D"subtree">

        &nbs= p;  <top xmlns=3D"http://example.com/schema/1.2/config"&g= t;

        &nbs= p;    <users>

        &nbs= p;      <user>

        &nbs= p;           <name/>= ;

        &nbs= p;            <ty= pe/>

        &nbs= p;      </user>

        &nbs= p;    </users>

        &nbs= p;  </top>

         <= ;/filter>

       </get-config= >

     </rpc>

 

I am wondering what RPC response will look like? It = will respond with null or it will respond as follows:

     <rpc-reply message-id=3D= "101"

        &nbs= p; xmlns=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">

       <data>

         <= ;top xmlns=3D"http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">

        &nbs= p;  <users>

        &nbs= p;    <user>

        &nbs= p;      <name>root</name>

        &nbs= p;      <type>superuser</type>

        &nbs= p;    </user>

        &nbs= p;    <user>

        &nbs= p;      <name>fred</name>

        &nbs= p;      <type>admin</type><= /p>

        &nbs= p;    </user>

        &nbs= p; </users>

       </top>

   </data>

</rpc-reply>

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Qiufang Ma

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(Concerning your question, please read section 6.2.4 "Selection Nodes". There is no restriction to only one selection node as far as I can tell.) /js On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 09:29:50AM +0000, maqiufang (A) wrote: > Hi, all: > > In RFC6241 section 6.4(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6241#section-6.4), several single subtree filtering examples are given. > I am wondering whether we can select multiple elements within the Subtree. > Note that we also assume "users" parent element is the container with presence substatement. > Here is the RPC request message with specific subtree filtering : > xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am wondering what RPC response will look like? It will respond with null or it will respond as follows: > xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"> > > > > > root > superuser > > > fred > admin > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > Qiufang Ma > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Aug 6 04:11:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1013A2900; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 04:11:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x-PgqNoUAOdQ; 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Fri, 6 Aug 2021 19:11:45 +0800 From: "maqiufang (A)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: "netmod@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod][netconf] Question on Subtree Filtering Usage Example Thread-Index: AdeKsyDJmZPyEoTYRIii/yYWDv0UMw== Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:11:45 +0000 Message-ID: <43f259b7886c4aa4aee3577a4904ce1a@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.123.93] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [netconf] Question on Subtree Filtering Usage Example X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 11:11:57 -0000 SGksIA0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciB5b3VyIHJlcGx5LiBDcm9zcyBwb3N0aW5nIHRvIE5FVENPTkYgbGlz dC4NCg0KQmVzdCBSZWdhcmRzLA0KUWl1ZmFuZyBNYQ0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2Ut LS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogSsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVyIFttYWlsdG86ai5zY2hvZW53YWVsZGVy QGphY29icy11bml2ZXJzaXR5LmRlXSANClNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgQXVndXN0IDYsIDIwMjEgNjoz NSBQTQ0KVG86IG1hcWl1ZmFuZyAoQSkgPG1hcWl1ZmFuZzFAaHVhd2VpLmNvbT4NCkNjOiBuZXRt b2RAaWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbbmV0bW9kXSBRdWVzdGlvbiBvbiBTdWJ0cmVlIEZp bHRlcmluZyBVc2FnZSBFeGFtcGxlDQoNCkhpLA0KDQp5b3UgbWF5IHdhbnQgdG8gc2VuZCB5b3Vy IHF1ZXN0aW9uIHRvIHRoZSBuZXRjb25mIGxpc3Qgc2luY2UgdGhpcyBpcyBhIHByb3RvY29sIHF1 ZXN0aW9uIGFuZCBub3QgYSBZQU5HIHF1ZXN0aW9uLiAoQ29uY2VybmluZyB5b3VyIHF1ZXN0aW9u LCBwbGVhc2UgcmVhZCBzZWN0aW9uIDYuMi40ICJTZWxlY3Rpb24gTm9kZXMiLiBUaGVyZSBpcyBu byByZXN0cmljdGlvbiB0byBvbmx5IG9uZSBzZWxlY3Rpb24gbm9kZSBhcyBmYXIgYXMgSSBjYW4g dGVsbC4pDQoNCi9qcw0KDQpPbiBGcmksIEF1ZyAwNiwgMjAyMSBhdCAwOToyOTo1MEFNICswMDAw LCBtYXFpdWZhbmcgKEEpIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBIaSwgYWxsOg0KPiANCj4gSW4gUkZDNjI0MSBzZWN0 aW9uIDYuNChodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9odG1sL3JmYzYyNDEjc2Vj dGlvbi02LjQpLCBzZXZlcmFsIHNpbmdsZSBzdWJ0cmVlIGZpbHRlcmluZyBleGFtcGxlcyBhcmUg Z2l2ZW4uDQo+IEkgYW0gd29uZGVyaW5nIHdoZXRoZXIgd2UgY2FuIHNlbGVjdCBtdWx0aXBsZSBl bGVtZW50cyB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIDx1c2Vycz4gU3VidHJlZS4NCj4gTm90ZSB0aGF0IHdlIGFsc28g YXNzdW1lICJ1c2VycyIgcGFyZW50IGVsZW1lbnQgaXMgdGhlIGNvbnRhaW5lciB3aXRoIHByZXNl bmNlIHN1YnN0YXRlbWVudC4NCj4gSGVyZSBpcyB0aGUgUlBDIHJlcXVlc3QgbWVzc2FnZSB3aXRo IHNwZWNpZmljIHN1YnRyZWUgZmlsdGVyaW5nIDoNCj4gICAgICA8cnBjIG1lc3NhZ2UtaWQ9IjEw MSINCj4gICAgICAgICAgIHhtbG5zPSJ1cm46aWV0ZjpwYXJhbXM6eG1sOm5zOm5ldGNvbmY6YmFz ZToxLjAiPg0KPiAgICAgICAgPGdldC1jb25maWc+DQo+ICAgICAgICAgIDxzb3VyY2U+DQo+ICAg ICAgICAgICAgPHJ1bm5pbmcvPg0KPiAgICAgICAgICA8L3NvdXJjZT4NCj4gICAgICAgICAgPGZp bHRlciB0eXBlPSJzdWJ0cmVlIj4NCj4gICAgICAgICAgICA8dG9wIHhtbG5zPSJodHRwOi8vZXhh bXBsZS5jb20vc2NoZW1hLzEuMi9jb25maWciPg0KPiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgPHVzZXJzPg0KPiAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICA8dXNlcj4NCj4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA8bmFtZS8+DQo+ICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDx0eXBlLz4NCj4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgPC91c2VyPg0KPiAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgPC91c2Vycz4NCj4gICAgICAgICAgICA8L3RvcD4NCj4gICAgICAgICAgPC9m aWx0ZXI+DQo+ICAgICAgICA8L2dldC1jb25maWc+DQo+ICAgICAgPC9ycGM+DQo+IA0KPiBJIGFt IHdvbmRlcmluZyB3aGF0IFJQQyByZXNwb25zZSB3aWxsIGxvb2sgbGlrZT8gSXQgd2lsbCByZXNw b25kIHdpdGggbnVsbCBvciBpdCB3aWxsIHJlc3BvbmQgYXMgZm9sbG93czoNCj4gICAgICA8cnBj LXJlcGx5IG1lc3NhZ2UtaWQ9IjEwMSINCj4gICAgICAgICAgIHhtbG5zPSJ1cm46aWV0ZjpwYXJh bXM6eG1sOm5zOm5ldGNvbmY6YmFzZToxLjAiPg0KPiAgICAgICAgPGRhdGE+DQo+ICAgICAgICAg IDx0b3AgeG1sbnM9Imh0dHA6Ly9leGFtcGxlLmNvbS9zY2hlbWEvMS4yL2NvbmZpZyI+DQo+ICAg ICAgICAgICAgPHVzZXJzPg0KPiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgPHVzZXI+DQo+ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg IDxuYW1lPnJvb3Q8L25hbWU+DQo+ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDx0eXBlPnN1cGVydXNlcjwvdHlw ZT4NCj4gICAgICAgICAgICAgIDwvdXNlcj4NCj4gICAgICAgICAgICAgIDx1c2VyPg0KPiAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICA8bmFtZT5mcmVkPC9uYW1lPg0KPiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA8dHlwZT5hZG1p bjwvdHlwZT4NCj4gICAgICAgICAgICAgIDwvdXNlcj4NCj4gICAgICAgICAgIDwvdXNlcnM+DQo+ ICAgICAgICA8L3RvcD4NCj4gICAgPC9kYXRhPg0KPiA8L3JwYy1yZXBseT4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiAN Cj4gQmVzdCBSZWdhcmRzLA0KPiBRaXVmYW5nIE1hDQoNCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gbmV0bW9kIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBuZXRt b2RAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9uZXRt b2QNCg0KDQotLSANCkp1ZXJnZW4gU2Nob2Vud2FlbGRlciAgICAgICAgICAgSmFjb2JzIFVuaXZl cnNpdHkgQnJlbWVuIGdHbWJIDQpQaG9uZTogKzQ5IDQyMSAyMDAgMzU4NyAgICAgICAgIENhbXB1 cyBSaW5nIDEgfCAyODc1OSBCcmVtZW4gfCBHZXJtYW55DQpGYXg6ICAgKzQ5IDQyMSAyMDAgMzEw MyAgICAgICAgIDxodHRwczovL3d3dy5qYWNvYnMtdW5pdmVyc2l0eS5kZS8+DQo= From nobody Fri Aug 6 10:59:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DF553A0CBB for ; 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charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20210806175907.B04B5F40720@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 10:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6655) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 17:59:43 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7950, "The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6655 -------------------------------------- Type: Editorial Reported by: Viktor Leijon Section: 10.6.1.1 Original Text ------------- leaf flags { type bits { bit UP; bit PROMISCUOUS bit DISABLED; } } Corrected Text -------------- leaf flags { type bits { bit UP; bit PROMISCUOUS; bit DISABLED; } } Notes ----- The missing semicolon makes the YANG snippet invalid. Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC7950 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6020bis-14) -------------------------------------- Title : The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language Publication Date : August 2016 Author(s) : M. Bjorklund, Ed. Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : Network Modeling Area : Operations and Management Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Fri Aug 6 11:19:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AE53A0E00 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:19:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=4668.se header.b=Vmycbl1p; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=myLTfY3t Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tRfL1RFotc3y for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EDB93A0E2C for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE393200906; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 06 Aug 2021 14:19:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=4668.se; h=date :message-id:to:cc:subject:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm2; bh= 6QA7CmDZ+ddNAqBWSI3JVIODBzMXvBJoqQcwqPHiiPc=; b=Vmycbl1pjswgcsNl SGwADfYVxMTpgtZ2AMUwDAQLKeDopwf/mzrFUk3NJ+Gr3MtislWhFtO+LK+sSStg z/xXO71i13CGglrzAKlI3qCwsDqYVc7PqrL00g8xneYxnvND0e1zVKoNc/DclxXp 7hUln6eGuvjcZcUyWhN3XdsOFd+G+8aoODC/FBSMK6lMN8hT/b7004sj2mqLZjmI nvC9JNyCSrWnWFIUyc6cDF8cdSqeHmEfMXf3NT309fpCRmmoau92EMargzkZVwv3 M2I0tJDnTFOFHGLenea5RQ2wcNor+/5c7ai0ShVXjyr+FZVYdatXMNXwfxdpBrCK f0R5+Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=6QA7CmDZ+ddNAqBWSI3JVIODBzMXvBJoqQcwqPHii Pc=; b=myLTfY3tuMPVY2G8Tb/S8pTqEXP4Nusoiz4PCiCR19dWp24pgl4HmoQz6 1BmwW5v07T2k7GNksLOmQKrGKtyGlm50XWiF9gTnJj89EjPXPWGrLLZ64wa2LHZP ri9zCMBj+MsdmUfFNbkQkSc8g4cLSa9BjMcgsXlJSkNBSXW7fqxPt+0FrPat3/lI M3kOYNsYNsymb6Ud4CFYVGzWPw736t3UXz1JPkzQEke3CdTad7uBvgxnJKCQLrs4 meak/BiUBX6QMz8kE/YpeMIwP6cwkSWvXot9V2PbgVkoFW16qZqBU+IZGJ5EHWSv edfXneHPwjN0D0kuH/GKHzm3gN9gA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrjedugdduvddtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffkffvuffhjghfofggtgfgsehtje ertdertddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrthhinhcuuehjnphrkhhluhhnugcuoehmsghjodhi vghtfhesgeeiieekrdhsvgeqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepueefffdugeevffehtdduke elvdfgffefudfgtefhgeeivedttddvfeetfefffeejnecuffhomhgrihhnpehrfhgtqdgv ughithhorhdrohhrghdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhgsjhdoihgvthhfseegieeikedrshgv X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:19:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 20:19:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20210806.201922.265340686143109379.id@4668.se> To: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: mbj+ietf@4668.se, vleijon@cisco.com, netmod@ietf.org From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rklund?= In-Reply-To: <20210806175907.B04B5F40720@rfc-editor.org> References: <20210806175907.B04B5F40720@rfc-editor.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6655) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:19:50 -0000 This is clearly a typo. The errata should be verified. /martin RFC Errata System wrote: > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7950, > "The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language". > > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6655 > > -------------------------------------- > Type: Editorial > Reported by: Viktor Leijon > > Section: 10.6.1.1 > > Original Text > ------------- > leaf flags { > type bits { > bit UP; > bit PROMISCUOUS > bit DISABLED; > } > } > > Corrected Text > -------------- > leaf flags { > type bits { > bit UP; > bit PROMISCUOUS; > bit DISABLED; > } > } > > Notes > ----- > The missing semicolon makes the YANG snippet invalid. > > Instructions: > ------------- > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > > -------------------------------------- > RFC7950 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6020bis-14) > -------------------------------------- > Title : The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language > Publication Date : August 2016 > Author(s) : M. Bjorklund, Ed. > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > Source : Network Modeling > Area : Operations and Management > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Fri Aug 6 11:44:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224613A0FE7; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:43:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dWZLfAHDNNBU; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBA3D3A101A; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.0.44] ([73.189.160.186]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus004 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M6V2j-1mE1pl3YuP-006wJd; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 20:43:49 +0200 To: Erik Kline , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff@ietf.org, netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, Joel Jaeggli References: <162561596844.31608.5688267766928727482@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexander L Clemm Message-ID: <44cc23b4-7957-3ba3-d7ec-22f42775923d@clemm.org> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:43:45 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <162561596844.31608.5688267766928727482@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:BEiCMB98LXsxGMv90EOh34J4zJ095mtAXhwjujmAxufO75AumW8 SPna/EfB/52wcMr8bHSUl/mmBrXw6H9geWDfWH2N/gw75dbVm6Ri833B9tEDiowZ6VPndTa Y2stMc1lvx41OupwjJGKPCQUnj0pA4MKf7L/5CIQ69KqdttxQO7JVd7G6HJdheANFrfzGp7 DbGYGOyiRYZgfIUlZzojA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Vorg4bg2BNs=:TIQZIZYxU83Gb2GZ883TGn qWGSnKwd0KgWzAXGYgKBbAhI6Xvr+vj/jjLBIvP7/u3h/QN4coFud5MPCT0cUXVW5rWyqlzr1 owMmEt3YZzV8jlRSWRczBIkUQE6U+OYUBDgT5ux4xgMQ+RpvkwL54PnxobG2bgwWJXQ+pIGsl NCIxyEJbQ4to/hUj9x6VEZgAI2JmtSrafCc0ayVoBfK6Hir08HjGvvIYHBubhKlcAyaJ9n+fY J2BIsxCV3+6hxBXquYdgeOctRTUpXAj+3Zi1BjbGOsWHeSXh/1imSt2ydo+3TvQib9QeM3sZs zhxxnoJugZjwrH2vRF8rjgz4lB4XkkAYxoLWIvY6kkRfIkhGgj6qLOs++HmiEg24oFTNWz/7c t2mSbdyTlgu2axobRnnWb3ipdoqgXTFyQ/tQoQ3Li4wsPtpxQV+1FmYKlrHXIEUwTQubdRRoG PUD5WTkIW9fRNAy1oEv6UyNfm3ufswAisEP278bO7BreB9OqWwcjRqdtQdyqfXYDZbvpmwv7b h6X4+ZZ9/a2zGyYwa5WM+wyhTYiwZvRegugVdiYqbvRvf71oOb/dNZDzqK/UNcSfmxt5I6rzb Wh/avZdD2FkEUJjcId6uBKYKO03OONOf5+AH1YuCQqrdpKCwebdU/UpEiWeUs7+31M8VzN5bB pp5DCaF4SKIX6RKG9sMvDbpKkYK2OMNWjCDvPjMMsB7rIJE4yjgsgEjrHpfZ70y8ULL+22DxF ayMf5tYSD/pM7DBhe9P6GKz0Ko5Ulv0pjm0o9PFxCibTvQVKPH3RQ5I5UrqJgMCMO3xudSqei x55IlTyQI8cDDDJKS4Nahz3DgtYHd4KRLsphV6JIf97Vqf8Ues9hAlBXgzMTlyIdMBc6m+V Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Erik Kline's No Objection on draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:44:06 -0000 Hello Erik, thank you for your review.  Please see my responses inline below. Thanks --- Alex On 7/6/2021 4:59 PM, Erik Kline via Datatracker wrote: > Erik Kline has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [S5] [question] > > * In the output yang-patch response when differences are present, is it > theoretically possible that 'create' or 'insert' operations will need > to be represented? If not, why not? The yang-patch response does include those differences.  The particular item in question pertains specifically to the augmentation to YANG-patch, in which the origin value is also specified (i.e., when you have a difference, it does not only tell you the new value / the YANG-patch that you have to apply, but it also tells you the original value that it had before).  When you apply a 'create' or 'insert' operation, clearly the item that you are creating or inserting was not there before, hence there is nothing to include. > > [S{7,9}] [observation] > > * The last paragraph of Section 9 and the whole of Section 7 seem to be > saying the same things? Perhaps consider if it's better to just say > them once in Section 9 or say everything in Section 7 and just have > the last paragraph of Section 9 say, in effect, "see also Section 7". > > > Well, the same issue (compare issue being potentially computationally expensive) has ramifications on both security and performance. Originally this was explained only in Section 9 (Security Considerations), but then an earlier suggestion was to spell this out explicitly in Section 7 as a Performance Consideration as well, hence it is mentioned in both places. I guess this makes it more explicit and at this point I would suggest to leave it there.   From nobody Fri Aug 6 11:44:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32B63A1019; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:44:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4nsQTWkVZ0q8; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 579D93A102E; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.0.44] ([73.189.160.186]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus002 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MbfKV-1mSNHp48cH-00J2ev; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 20:43:53 +0200 To: Alexey Melnikov , secdir@ietf.org Cc: last-call@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff.all@ietf.org References: <162514430275.17979.13728329356212798526@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexander L Clemm Message-ID: <200d27c8-f73a-a1be-47c0-727c56b80a8b@clemm.org> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:43:51 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <162514430275.17979.13728329356212798526@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:5F2Qjcvk/wPKQBZMeKg9T5EKI91kO9niY6xUbj2bx8YBCyRd51K icDSwNZdPSLZGeuoJ3AkTixc7iqZ9UYBtIFqMUyvHu5T3aZC2v+1b32r5/opHIc7zxoSNF8 1W8AalAI4FKOqBzp5CC31Wxwnj186wkNxfC05BMdEUhsHU6t/otZGqBUZ7HWH3AsXSdH7lU 7IZby05ul2eUx4UA9hRlw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:t/R3L968WMw=:ei4ecjrDfRcFYI+zwTwrK+ U4134ZlG7pJMHYiFt2q3SalHldWqTImdxSepIZjGm8Ul4XfDLRhbI6AVixbl+Zgb4RB8h5fp8 7CVHkoVAijpt9aNR6vRWxmCKcwx4SCwWVMx7Qo4xZGeadr5D3BZ165oDkZNjzQhWNrPNmla2v 4KVbrcLNXsX4684RaIXSXI/95MI1/fQ/kpQe87fSOIZMtxOKJkuUQTYLyVUteFgWDZ+CTi5Uw 41v4wEdGaOMXNK9T3mm/hx/0WQzCMxx5zk0FB4uhfpE51rMBtXKfouHPEODTJWCWJKoOCk3Qw iTXkhF19zjQL2yYm7F51rWpluL2u1gHbZbx94waKnSQG5eIDV8OPk2CN3d8hSkYs/JkaXXsQX HR4CsHxH9v8vTO59ngwZ06Jy3FLxYB8c03liRR4zsp7j5SKhtSDjEba5/KvetnsJNgh67nOz9 f2xTuqzdjxHstWQEFBjCg5dEdgE9pD5eE2Jb2b1pSZ8ftjydbMvWZi74AQVuQE6oaXa2lQ2w8 30Y4GAQ0XnRIJ0q8+MhJ8JrSAJmQwdzlBS+uUJQhyUBp0GUu6fUhc24MHxkSLqbuheU9FfdED pO4UgZGQ9ARTSa6mYUHUUjDhl6hqb6lPcDfWaMzc1uKZYN7El/4raKkA2jNF5ZpXPCqdKWpJp ThWHQhTAoBzRFwKt9njGAy+aNTjwK1l3CATVqwFo9i3m53kzjCrAKv6wljzF6Mfr7qiHyDJyV mpOKWGVgFdtOW066Pkd/xZQoNS2NhFLLWJb6R5hmCstnbbhG9IixfKrKGpX+SFXYDkllU9EM1 UxB9g3a5tvAAF2BknL+qMHvqaZE40UxrqDbCZk80aVsvG+rr5UfzLkMb4YplQEBBupkRoxx Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:44:10 -0000 Hi Alexey, thank you for your review and pointing out the nits (empty lines after HTTP headers), which are addressed in -12.  Kind regards --- Alex On 7/1/2021 5:58 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker wrote: > Reviewer: Alexey Melnikov > Review result: Has Nits > > I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's > ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the > IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the > security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these > comments just like any other last call comments. > > This document defines an RPC operation to compare management > datastores that comply with the NMDA architecture. > The Security Considerations talks about a couple of issues specific to > the new operation: > 1) sensitivity of the new "compare" operation and how access control rights > to access it should be restricted. > 2) performance considerations of running "compare" and > how it can lead to Denial-of-Service, if the number of requests allowed > in any given time interval is not restricted. > I can't think of other security issues raised by this document that are > missing from it. > > Nits: > > In Section 6: > >> The same request in RESTCONF (using JSON format): >> >> POST /restconf/operations/ietf-nmda-compare:compare HTTP/1.1 >> Host: example.com >> Content-Type: application/yang-data+json >> Accept: application/yang-d > Please insert an empty line after the HTTP request header and before the > following payload, or your example is not syntactically valid. > > Also, I don't "application/yang-d" in the list of registered media types on > . Did I miss it? > >> { "ietf-nmda-compare:input" { >> "source" : "ietf-datastores:operational", >> "target" : "ietf-datastores:intended", >> "report-origin" : null, >> "xpath-filter" : "/ietf-interfaces:interfaces" >> } >> } >> >> The same response in RESTCONF (using JSON format): >> >> HTTP/1.1 200 OK >> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2019 20:56:30 GMT >> Server: example-server >> Content-Type: application/yang-d > Similar to the above, you need an empty line inserted here. > >> { "ietf-nmda-compare:output" : { >> "differences" : { >> "ietf-yang-patch:yang-patch" : { >> "patch-id" : "interface status", >> "comment" : "diff between intended (source) and operational", >> "edit" : [ >> { >> "edit-id" : "1", >> "operation" : "replace", >> "target" : "/ietf-interfaces:interface=eth0/enabled", >> "value" : { >> "ietf-interfaces:interface/enabled" : "false" >> }, >> "source-value" : { >> "ietf-interfaces:interface/enabled" : "true", >> "@ietf-interfaces:interface/enabled" : { >> "ietf-origin:origin" : "ietf-origin:learned" >> } >> } >> }, >> { >> "edit-id" : "2", >> "operation" : "create", >> "target" : "/ietf-interfaces:interface=eth0/description", >> "value" : { >> "ietf-interface:interface/description" : "ip interface" >> } >> } >> ] >> } >> } >> } >> } > Best Regards, > Alexey > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Fri Aug 6 11:44:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFE433A1025; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:44:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nIXfmUy04zuQ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08C753A1028; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.0.44] ([73.189.160.186]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus002 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MHVso-1m8n2V1y0a-003Jcc; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 20:44:03 +0200 To: Murray Kucherawy , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff@ietf.org, netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, Joel Jaeggli References: <162629975266.30955.5971703739690529871@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexander L Clemm Message-ID: <98acc9a8-6167-74c2-a1d3-7b9bbd4f54eb@clemm.org> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:44:01 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <162629975266.30955.5971703739690529871@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:uOgS0id6373vdCMYgCdaUlHQ1HPngn9oXKr3aMEKUmXMyMjqTKo 8grcTIbWC+UCmZ1Smi7KcdNnHy/DF3ddY7ujHU9tB0ZQbRF9rgkksLzC1oqgGlmj4/YL255 V9K5AwVxyIoLrZ2a8ZVKKWCxykw3lhSBnlWDCRgSpeGhIvslcGEDErVRSW285Qf8MFYIBiW yVPBg+UhYlNrqZWSlgKoA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:NQ/p9WF4tMs=:gjjw30958/VRCkT6X5ajQi DVYxzabxf7P5IVgJ7CmwIoZfBQ2jo0VpcS44DelzTAY+F55FwoFsj/7UJR8aqKNtjftux6gIs 09NOtgNLdKeWijc9qQje0c/t3tKybo+8pvmbH/THEyfgl4fNZydbCyiRJM4SI4Du2Pi3cGkeL lWSAihIzMHWC7ORVS7r9AJUIHPPcoplJT19iI4ynu/pdxZ4Uj8xwr2t54k+GQxem3SjNM1lxy pS6Wl7FdAOsiyrAYBIlA+NNSJQfTU7J1m1JCoBni/edGeX0AmytNQlFiWsrmSp0SLdK7ZB5mK E3/dr+nCC8dEeabg72cBZP0UVVHkpA6aBE5as1UivyBxHFEWNqIOICErC1Z+c6DylzF7hc5PV a42htao7D0IaIhAG3k6MAWyyMOR8nmLTQ3rg1uuOqg/Fqx3Jppq7ThczlwmE2EIAi2q/D9g2K GHYa121EJxrcmsypMTOG1h0oHsBfazaus5O6j+4AeTYIit/iSXX4YenjHfwhU6PVnfrkDPcki o26tqrHGyUDWiZFpOWD2Nbt6YTzmkwiZalJBXaHGRzuNMtvzIf9BtqPt7Tn3vK+TFkWvA81zV Ec7pjuoo5CDHS5KdN1uTYotMKBzx4vFKMIbDn15TO7QzHGwja59ZNngwo0uRZBBJ9s754Q/TU HnYZOdPv8wojw/MhrVAa26AmRTaLdg+yTHgulXF6a/TVDgx/vAE3SeRDeLhrlF9/DLJVQV7Be a3yFI4C4pXpaWGtc++qiUqr2PVsxUsElqt9CR7hiC6b7fUs1EYsZuOB+WmasfB6FrfmQQLDUi J4G8LIfVpLXqpSkMK565Ncs7zMyJXACcWWy2hxgFXs+Gy4bMxJJo1D5TPx6IlNQuy8j1suE Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Murray Kucherawy's No Objection on draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-10: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:44:18 -0000 Hello Murray, thank you for your comment.  I have corrected the grammar item that you pointed out.  Regarding mentioning the same issue(concerning the compare issue being potentially computationally expensive) in sections 7 and 9, that issue is relevant both from a performance as well as from a security standpoint, hence it is mentioned in both places.  In fact, originally it was only mentioned under security considerations, but explicitly added as a performance consideration per another request that was received.  Hence, I think it does not hurt to keep this as is and call it out in both places.  Kind regards --- Alex On 7/14/2021 2:55 PM, Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker wrote: > Murray Kucherawy has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-10: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In Section 7: > > "... number of requests that is served to a client ..." -- s/is/are/ > > Also, it strikes me that some of what's in Section 7 is repeated in the last > paragraph of Section 9. I wonder if they could perhaps be merged, or 9 could > reference 7, or something. > > > From nobody Fri Aug 6 11:44:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760813A1012; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:44:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 90ZdLYaaunBN; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62EEC3A0FFD; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.0.44] ([73.189.160.186]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lmae5-1mlPVb1VGl-00aBk1; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 20:44:00 +0200 To: Lars Eggert , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff@ietf.org, netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, Joel Jaeggli References: <162609649382.9016.4775141501794218285@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexander L Clemm Message-ID: <5329b9e4-8b88-a995-386a-cfca15d48827@clemm.org> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:43:57 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <162609649382.9016.4775141501794218285@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:a2dkCqtAYzf/Iow89V9U6BrABIhNYM9V9nhHYnOEhDSJ0AC/TU+ xuICynWSY3ZRzPtKLzoC00ifTSrfiV+X2A0Tfc1BVNwfR+n7U/UH/fDQkwt3xKXjvzgIvf+ u2C2aMn2AMrBivel9lJsMFMyHPCAAjRFWDnEgh2wW1rZaCCkN83wT0btSv2BFwPkL7THxo8 uZxYu0NITZ8+qEnWQneOA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:06b0HWNn964=:wE4y5NMwiXuTYKGCVg4MDc 2XU0Kxye1f3Gy2994FGRvgYyYjXHyXx31kKuW/llffkj/XC6yLinnClwwr4phTC9GwYaxZgfZ aGKzCkDvW8bcjpLoQh3Ok0CNyrDldnBvZRiRi+CKrBI3vwy6z2NNaclosOV3avjFRYwdG+Qqq GOLy5Sd7gvnuvX5RUZLQGF79ZcM11YVdRsPXFSn1CYOBp/2SnsCewAA46p0667EqS/XpUid2V vJYZ+zMKQa5mW07M5OshJKTm/Wk373X86veN47xBIn33vuJ4U3bKdPG6EOBmQIfZdPt5PKM4w sM6QOMpDFliSwjGl0ze2Wt6YcGOS/XqH/1M2Ilt2pq3doOOT/D/7jH5KRhDIQxhRolNxzT1jd ePN91kXRwmPwv4ctZ5CL5V2CterDJZLvLovo/4xKf1bQrOPtn3MsCKBxosKC2CtunNdC9G+cG fyBTq6BlG5x/YWtD130WPINPct1Qv/MRNigTaSg3Zle6czLJdpO6y6bOrx3r9wjDiYACRmxG+ f4XIOgob0EYhzxfrHliI7cxGCg7ZsQtTxWrZ777q17qXWsyE+8NzQm1yv+IysmiQFGOF00Swj lrihKI1tOmkPSurw3alCpYp8JkctjaHZUTxIEhw59bJ1v+FIIiSx0rk3q1JvjnKH4fYRd4OT9 eGNiHNOf8fJtZqO56JWKHNeyTE+kdoqxQOlYibbK2vUKSNbmddmXKZr54PgV/hr60qee1gf8W P6ycxnARNJ8SUcwV3tdAfCeX0B7jcLB1iQuQWHJDOvm5Wgsh6n9GMA9Je09yHCwZjDeHUwo6+ ZYjv0zjyA0wfpsLYCY+2m+hsiMy3ci99dbAYgDGG5kOhTrs9unEPjU7PANh3T2yoAMBU5eB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Lars Eggert's No Objection on draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:44:19 -0000 Hello Lars, thank you for your review. I have changed the sentence in section 1 para 2.  The reference to RFC 6991 is referenced by the YANG module, hence included in the citations.  I have updated the URL to the non-deprecated one.  Kind regards --- Alex On 7/12/2021 6:28 AM, Lars Eggert via Datatracker wrote: > Lars Eggert has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > All comments below are about very minor potential issues that you may choose to > address in some way - or ignore - as you see fit. Some were flagged by > automated tools (via https://github.com/larseggert/ietf-reviewtool), so there > will likely be some false positives. There is no need to let me know what you > did with these suggestions. > > Section 1. , paragraph 2, nit: >> s both applied configuration data as well as status and statistics. As a resu >> ^^^^^^^^^^ > Probable usage error. Use "and" after "both". > > Section 6. , paragraph 2, nit: >> ormat): HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2019 20:56:30 GMT Server: example-s >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > The date 26 Jan 2019 is not a Thursday, but a Saturday. > > Uncited references: [RFC6991]. > > These URLs point to tools.ietf.org, which is being deprecated: > * http://tools.ietf.org/wg/netconf/ > > These URLs in the document can probably be converted to HTTPS: > * http://tools.ietf.org/wg/netconf/ > > > From nobody Fri Aug 6 12:07:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C71F3A1150; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:07:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ppganOjoPwIw; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F30E63A114A; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.0.44] ([73.189.160.186]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus002 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lnh2P-1mmXCP37yJ-00ht9L; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 21:07:38 +0200 To: Benjamin Kaduk , Andy Bierman Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff@ietf.org, NetMod WG Chairs , NetMod WG , Joel Jaeggli References: <162578071895.23622.6414701243842084826@ietfa.amsl.com> <20210715182748.GU74365@kduck.mit.edu> From: Alexander L Clemm Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:07:36 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210715182748.GU74365@kduck.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:HIUrYv3Z5U+qjpIJFcn76vbA1m3ccJL1jDqaJSoFls8bSimXhUi LosTC+c8C+xhAfkGYhJQCu1jW0WKuExaF4WDFsMGeMye70+TspUURhFV+i+kuxv4eyiMz2w rXIEYz5os7NtnCUR/qYIaMTwb0JwarHOxz8c70A4gnpMstuNJFFPsWeNuGjF18/q0icNtqc cJf0hptuWCbPsypdm1TWA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:cTVCs8ixBbc=:q7QxaS3PlUfFdJIA/kSM8+ IiweZUDMJhcNgiCnm+G0ey6A/wEa0gW5nzLw/QGxPZExD9RrX89cWwJgaf6WrkqxzZN2IHe1/ kyKxmfuJWxpX3cXRW58QKeybKEjmMJqk077bhFZ3ThF6lzZRe6fzv7ugwwylOjjVa+2j5SUVX wkCCvmsLHGoMs3tz808HF/Y7ZNqAPj4SXWmPXJeN3ot23o4c7g1Q8WOQPPOqlp+XbQF9xgAdL 4mHpTdS5fUYGQSUzwxE4D5ONfd84aNo+dR6A71PUiTa9xgZi92iQhbpS3g0QlSjVQ1DH++tvq gZq2qKBmJ5D5kwZ3PjYYrErtICFaUz7AO7b6LsjmkpEkEl2HJoJ/4j780dFyoWwlaHMOpoOHP FULW0+Ep+TsQ8WOCcz6zwpUlvlDvaC6Y+M3kb5rkXSpTnVkEO5+mCJKSwsw57YCid2jHtg+Pg 2p9vHdbbxRbC7wxQ3FZbrKl/nbUZAXgy51zmR1NCrohgA3j1kAkBhSA8ZWRUZW/16BvSKLswJ 6VRAInbJH/YtfZfh1VfPpBp8+B71tkB2MvBADxxzTjIm3qF06bcy0W8m2LuKKznbch64XhGNK vn1plQDVONt8W6JPCzVUWxmj56gosw6VzNQJ6xQeNdBJx1vPr26oAaYK1LQ4R48TBsMWZfUIW IbWZDrbD4WI1EgRvozSfvUuXLzhocpr8fjRB6RcHlgUZ/EC7M+ERyuQF98rO7318LHGsERNT5 sULf2mPzaqrI4vWZwFsO2U0+eJN2P+FVaTfF80dfViLjQsFYUt1Lw27MNyM5Lf+ILRnzj22Kr 2ZvymMmae4Ze2hMMn4hFexBeE0AnLlwMl0Je3wmj/tHlMaOi6BXyoCpCuQ/9WZSZ4XcMled Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 19:07:49 -0000 Hello Benjamin, thank you for your review. Two quick additional responses inline, Kind regards --- Alex On 7/15/2021 11:27 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > Hi Andy, > > On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 03:42:30PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 2:45 PM Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker < >> noreply@ietf.org> wrote: >> >>> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for >>> draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-09: No Objection >>> >>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>> >>> >>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>> for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>> >>> >>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/ >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> COMMENT: >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Thanks to Alexey Melnikov for the secdir review. >>> >>> I'm not experienced enough with YANG to know whether or how problematic >>> it is that the "anydata subtree-filter" node contents are described by >>> reference to the NETCONF specification, which has a particular (XML) >>> representation of YANG data and does not give a clear presentation of >>> the abstract YANG structure/semantics to be used. Is it possible to use >>> the filter-spec choice option when, for example, RESTCONF is used with >>> JSON encoding? >>> >>> >> There is not a standard specification for subtree filtering using JSON >> encoding >> instead of XML. RESTCONF has its own somewhat compatible filtering >> mechanism. >> It would require a new NETCONF work item to officially expand subtree >> filtering >> to support JSON. (Unofficially, there is RFC for JSON encoding of YANG >> data and an >> implementation could map the RFC 6241 text to JSON). > Okay, this sounds a little familiar now that you mention it. > > Should we mention in a comment of some form that this filtering mechanism > is currently only usable with the XML encoding? Since we are not defining a new filtering mechanism here, just making use of what has been defined, presumably the references in the YANG spec should be sufficient. While the limitations you state are correct, those lie in the nature of the current filtering state-of-the-art and not specific to the specification here. it is well possible that JSON filtering might be standardized in the future, in which case such filter would equally apply / be accommodated.  So, I am not sure that commenting on the current state in filter standardization would be helpful and prefer to keep the text as is.   >> >>> Section 4 >>> >>> o report-origin: When set, this parameter indicates that origin >>> metadata should be included as part of RPC output. When this >>> parameter is omitted, origin metadata in comparisons that involve >>> is by default omitted. >>> >>> Why is it important to complicate the semantics of this parameter with a >>> dependence on the datastore? It seems like it would be simpler to get >>> this effect by having clients specify report-origin when the target is >>> not . Note that changing the semantics would require text >>> changes in subsequent parts of the document for consistency. (If >>> retaining the current semantics, please clarify whether "comparisons >>> that involve " applies when operational is source, target, >>> or either.) >>> >>> >> IMO NMDA is way too complicated, so I cannot argue with that complaint. >> The origin attribute only applies to the datastore. >> I think it is not allowed to appear elsewhere. > Ah, I see what you are saying now (on second read): the "origin" being > reported is the origin attribute of the data in the datastore being > compared, but only the datastore will every have that > attribute available. The text here would be a lot more clear if it > reminded the reader that the origin attribute has such a limited scope, > perhaps: > > o report-origin: data in the datastore has an associated > "origin" attribute that indicates the origin of the reported value. When > set, this parameter indicates that the origin metadata should be included > as part of the RPC output. It has no effect when the target datastore is > anything other than . When this parameter is omitted, the > origin metadata is omitted from the RPC output. I think this is clearly explained in the bullet item:  "Note that origin metadata only applies to ; it is therefore also omitted in comparisons that do not involve ; regardless of whether or not the parameter is set. Adding the first sentence would seem a bit redundant.  >> Section 9 >>> In addition to noting that the "compare" RPC is sensitive and should be >>> restricted to authorized parties, I suggest to reiterate that the >>> "compare" operation should not provide a mechanism to work around access >>> control on other nodes -- that is, a result should only be returned if >>> the requestor would be allowed to access both the "source" and "target" >>> trees independently of the RPC. In particular, even a "no-matches" >>> output should not be returned, as that might provide a way to determine >>> the structure of the datastore even without accessing it. >>> >> Fortunately the access control model (NACM) is per server and not per >> datastore >> so the same access rules apply to all datastores. I agree the no-access >> subtrees >> should be silently skipped, the same way that GET operations are treated in >> NACM. > Ah, okay. (I think Roman may have mentioned a similar concern about > no-access subtrees, too.) > > Thanks, > > Ben > >> >>> We might also incorporate by reference the security considerations for >>> subtree filtering (RFC 6241) and xpath filtering (RFC 6991). >>> >>> NITS >>> >>> Section 1 >>> >>> an unusually long time to do so. This can be the case due to certain >>> conditions not being met, certain parts of the configuration not >>> propagating because considered inactive, resource dependencies not >>> being resolved, or even implementation errors in corner conditions. >>> >>> "because considered inactive" seems like an incomplete clause; maybe >>> "because they are considered inactive"? >>> >>> Section 4 >>> >>> o differences: This parameter contains the list of differences. >>> Those differences are encoded per YANG-Patch data model defined in >>> >>> s/YANG-Patch/the YANG-Patch/ >>> I'd also consider s/per/according to/, since this is not exactly a >>> logic-driven deduction but rather more of a new requirement. >>> >>> Section 6 >>> >>> for the management of interfaces defined in [RFC8343]. The excerpt >>> of the data model whose instantiation is the basis of the comparison >>> is as follows: >>> >>> I feel like this phrasing is a little misleading, as not only is the >>> following snippet only a subset of the nodes contained within "container >>> interfaces" but the descriptions have been greatly abbreviated as well. >>> Perhaps we could say something about "for the purposes of understanding >>> the subsequent example, the following subset of the [RFC8343] data model >>> is provided". >>> >>> Accept: application/yang-d >>> >>> (I believe this truncated header field was already noted by another >>> reviewer.) >>> >>> >> Andy From nobody Fri Aug 6 13:31:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AED83A15DE; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 13:31:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.36.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <162828189211.15928.10244489690393448042@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 13:31:32 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-12.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 20:31:32 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : Comparison of NMDA datastores Authors : Alexander Clemm Yingzhen Qu Jeff Tantsura Andy Bierman Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-12.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2021-08-06 Abstract: This document defines an RPC operation to compare management datastores that comply with the NMDA architecture. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-12 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-12 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Aug 9 14:51:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B2A3A1A33 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2021 14:51:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, 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d4so8254076lfk.9 for ; Mon, 09 Aug 2021 15:23:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2mggSDiwJZffjJSKnz24e5cvw4F2fqjrSIo6jJwN61U=; b=gp2MUoJQ5wfzSVwIZiCkDKUpxQo9LcHSior9XYKS6JjZJENVUC6bEWP/fLJIMA3ecH 3LlZA5CsXQVbe83ffCflVHmDKql3owJd+PZP1Zv1Xc9YPKRXuPyDQcSJM/mo2nx6Bm9J Lxunwg5f2i+OrpSQyNbOTSUMsAyrznvtwzCOeVV1JIQYbKbxJ4ll+gMvfBdHXis3usnw vM7X5cPy87dm61YtQ9pN9Z2qCn5Pp7s6iQkluaB0uw+05xY7kKRELiV7SnjBG3/AefyS rSOOdhUyGf5ap+iC7DI/uQokyakWd8Y/0tsArh8nD3++8QRmaP+pETZCvD1wsH+GLQO6 9j1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2mggSDiwJZffjJSKnz24e5cvw4F2fqjrSIo6jJwN61U=; b=B9fwe7FMVCCjxOM+vJdpDSsyyiGbMrEfk/rnmq7afMi7A4oAjGMKoKLcBxd0G1U2kK 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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000075ee5205c927d571" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2021 22:23:37 -0000 --00000000000075ee5205c927d571 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 2:51 PM Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < jason.sterne@nokia.com> wrote: > Hi guys, > > > > I'm late to the game on this thread but I did read through the entire > thing (whew - can't promise I absorbed every nuance though). I am familia= r > with this issue. I've been dealing with it from the server implementation > side (some clients **do** complain if there are references to missing > "system config" list entries). > > > > One of the pretty fundamental issues IMO is whether we want good ol' > standard to always be valid (including for an offline client or > tool to be able to validate instance data retrieved from a server against > the YANG models). Even without this "system config" topic, we already hav= e > a looming problem with config templates & expansion. Servers with YANG > models that document a lot of constraints (e.g. leafrefs, mandatory > statements, etc) are more likely to hit this issue of an invalid running > config (offline). > > > > I'm doubtful that it is easy for a client to know how templates are > expanded for all given servers. Unless that expansion is fully standardiz= ed > (which would be challenging given multiple different shipping > implementations in the industry), there can be some subtle corner cases a= nd > it can be complex (multiple levels of template application, exclusion > rules, etc). > > > > I agree there can be dynamically added system config (e.g. create a new > qos policy, and some queue list entries are automatically created inside > that policy). > > > > Note that config added by the system could be deletable or non-deletable. > For deletable items there were some previous discussions a few years ago > that those list entries could be simply a default config that is populate= d > if the startup datastore is empty at boot time. > > > > The system config list entries could also have leafs that are modifiable > and leafs that are immutable. For the modifiable objects I think this is > basically the system merging the explicit config with the system config > (with the explicit taking precedence). > > > > Perhaps a lot of this system config is a legacy hold over from > human-driven CLIs. For machine interfaces maybe it's reasonable to have > clients explicitly define their config **if** they need offline > validation of to succeed (i.e. allow clients to explicitly > configure any of the system config policies they are actually using & > referencing). In many cases, users want the "master" view of the config = to > live up in the client/OSS side and just push it down to the server (witho= ut > having the server touch the contents of the running, i.e. a read-back > should return identically what was sent). > > > > It might be good to set up a virtual interim or call of some sort to > discuss this one. It is pretty complex. > > I think Balasz captured the 2 use-cases very well. For implementations that combine the system into , undoing this behavior would be quite disruptive and therefore not likely to be done= . It would help to have some common understanding of the contents of = . Maybe start with the well-known "interface problem". The system configures almost empty physical interfaces. The user is allowed to add, modify, and delete all descendants except the "name" and "type" leaf, which are set by the system. In this case will have the /interfaces/interface nodes in them (or else the client-accessible nodes could not be represented in NETCONF). So any config=3Dtrue XPath can point at name or type leafs in or . I have heard that is needed because it has nodes in it that do not exist in or , but could exist. The premise is that the server could have created these nodes but it did not for some reason. And the client can inspect these nodes and somehow force the server to change the nodes it adds to . (So what is the real use-case then?) Retrieving the system-created nodes with origin=3Dsystem is already support= ed by NMDA. > > > Jason > Andy > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 4, 2021 9:59 AM > *To:* Juergen Schoenwaelder ; Kent > Watsen ; Andy Bierman ; NetMod WG < > netmod@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 6:39 AM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > > The figure in RFC 8342 section 5 documents what was agreed upon > before. System configuration flows into but not upwards > into . Over the years, we discussed several corner cases > (including things like configuring a new user and the system > automatically assigns an unused uid, which afterwards needs to be kept > stable). While there are for sure tricky corner cases, I am not > convinced that the model defined in RFC 8342 for the general cases is > wrong and that merging a new system datastore into is the > right approach. If people want to change the model documented in RFC > 8342, then they should make an explicit statement about this and > provide strong reasons that the model is flawed or incomplete. > > Note that the model does allow having a system client merging config > into (ideally controlled by an ACM so that such a client can > be turned off if it leads to surprises). > > > > > > This is a solved problem in proprietary ways. It is simple to treat > system config > > as an access control issue. > > > > I am quite concerned that NMDA is getting extended in ways that lead to > > confusion and poor interoperability. Adding a new datastore is very > serious. > > IMO ANY new datastore (even factory default) should be standardized in > > a new version of NMDA (replacing RFC 8342). > > > > A datastore has a lot of baggage > > - YANG library > > - YANG XPath evaluation > > - subtree and XPath filtered retrieval > > - usage in RPC operations (ds:datastore data type parameter) > > > > Every time a datastore is added, all the existing RPC operations that use > > datastores need to be clarified wrt/ support for the new datastore. > > (Of course this is never done, leading to lots of interoperability issues= ) > > > > I am quite confused by the XPath discussions because XPath can only > > access existing nodes (i.e. the "accessible tree") > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-6.4.1 > > > > So what does it mean for the system datastore to contain possible values > that > > cannot be represented in ? The accessible tree cannot includ= e > > these values, so XPath-based validation cannot use them. > > > > > > > /js > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 12:34:45PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > I am confused by the confusion ;) > > > > You all know that JUNOS implemented this concept before YANG was even a > thing, right? > > > > Admittedly, it=E2=80=99s not a =E2=80=9Cdatastore=E2=80=9C, but flexing= the NMDA is where we can > do better. > > > > A =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D mechanism could also work. The only do= wnside is the > inability for a client to get only the system configuration, without the > rest of . > > > > Please stop stating/suggesting =E2=80=9Cconfig true=E2=80=9D nodes are = referencing > =E2=80=9Cconfig false=E2=80=9D nodes, or that config is referencing oper= ational state. > There is no intention to break either of these tenants here. > > > > I think that some folks just joined the conversation and may have misse= d > out when we covered all this before. > > > > The draft needs to be updated to more clearly identify the goals. > > > > K. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > --00000000000075ee5205c927d571 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 2:51 PM Sterne= , Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <j= ason.sterne@nokia.com> wrote:

Hi guys,

=C2=A0

I'm late to the game on this thread but I = did read through the entire thing (whew - can't promise I absorbed ever= y nuance though). I am familiar with this issue. I've been dealing with= it from the server implementation side (some clients *do* complain if there are= references to missing "system config" list entries).

=C2=A0

One of the pretty fundamental issues IMO is wh= ether we want good ol' standard <running> to always be valid (inc= luding for an offline client or tool to be able to validate instance data r= etrieved from a server against the YANG models). Even without this "system con= fig" topic, we already have a looming problem with config templates &a= mp; expansion.=C2=A0 Servers with YANG models that document a lot of constr= aints (e.g. leafrefs, mandatory statements, etc) are more likely to hit this issue of an invalid running config (offline).

=C2=A0

I'm doubtful that it is easy for a client = to know how templates are expanded for all given servers. Unless that expan= sion is fully standardized (which would be challenging given multiple diffe= rent shipping implementations in the industry), there can be some subtle corner= cases and it can be complex (multiple levels of template application, excl= usion rules, etc).

=C2=A0

I agree there can be dynamically added system = config (e.g. create a new qos policy, and some queue list entries are autom= atically created inside that policy).

=C2=A0

Note that config added by the system could be = deletable or non-deletable. For deletable items there were some previous di= scussions a few years ago that those list entries could be simply a default config that is populated if the startup datastore is empty at boot time.

=C2=A0

The system config list entries could also have= leafs that are modifiable and leafs that are immutable. For the modifiable= objects I think this is basically the system merging the explicit config with the system config (with the explicit taking precedence).

=C2=A0

Perhaps a lot of this system config is a legac= y hold over from human-driven CLIs. For machine interfaces maybe it's r= easonable to have clients explicitly define their config *if* they n= eed offline validation of <running> to succeed (i.e. allow clients to ex= plicitly configure any of the system config policies they are actually usin= g & referencing).=C2=A0 In many cases, users want the "master"= ; view of the config to live up in the client/OSS side and just push it down to the server (without having the server touch the conte= nts of the running, i.e. a read-back should return identically what was sen= t).

=C2=A0

It might be good to set up a virtual interim o= r call of some sort to discuss this one. It is pretty complex.



I think Balasz captured the 2 use-cases ver= y well.
For implementations that combine the system into <runn= ing>, undoing
this behavior would be quite disruptive and ther= efore not likely to be done.

It would help to have= some common understanding of the contents of <system>.
May= be start with the well-known "interface problem".=C2=A0 The syste= m configures almost empty physical interfaces.
The user is allowe= d to add, modify, and delete all descendants except the "name" an= d "type" leaf,
which are set by the system.
<= br>
In this case <running> will have the /interfaces/interf= ace nodes in them (or else the client-accessible
nodes could not = be represented in NETCONF).=C2=A0 So any config=3Dtrue XPath can point at n= ame or type leafs
in <running> or <operational>.

I have heard that <system> is needed because it = has nodes in it that do not exist
in <running> or <opera= tional>, but could exist.=C2=A0=C2=A0
The premise is that the = server could have created these nodes
but it did not for some rea= son.=C2=A0 And the client can inspect these nodes and somehow
for= ce the server to change the nodes it adds to <running>. (So what is t= he real use-case then?)

Retrieving the system-crea= ted nodes with origin=3Dsystem is already supported by NMDA.

=



=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Jason

=

Andy
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 9:59 AM
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 6:39 AM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6= nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:<= u>

The figure in RFC 8342 section 5 documents what was = agreed upon
before. System configuration flows into <operational> but not upwards=
into <running>. Over the years, we discussed several corner cases
(including things like configuring a new user and the system
automatically assigns an unused uid, which afterwards needs to be kept
stable). While there are for sure tricky corner cases, I am not
convinced that the model defined in RFC 8342 for the general cases is
wrong and that merging a new system datastore into <running> is the right approach. If people want to change the model documented in RFC
8342, then they should make an explicit statement about this and
provide strong reasons that the model is flawed or incomplete.

Note that the model does allow having a system client merging config
into <running> (ideally controlled by an ACM so that such a client ca= n
be turned off if it leads to surprises).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

This is a solved problem in proprietary ways.=C2=A0 = It is simple to treat system config

as an access control issue.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I am quite concerned that NMDA is getting extended i= n ways that lead to

confusion and poor interoperability.=C2=A0 Adding a = new datastore is very serious.

IMO ANY new datastore (even factory default) should = be standardized in

a new version of NMDA (replacing RFC 8342).

=C2=A0

A datastore has a lot of baggage

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- YANG library

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- YANG XPath evaluation

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- subtree and XPath filtered retrieval<= u>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- usage in RPC operations (ds:datastore= data type parameter)

=C2=A0

Every time a datastore is added, all the existing RP= C operations that use

datastores need to be clarified wrt/ support for the= new datastore.

(Of course this is never done, leading to lots of in= teroperability issues)

=C2=A0

I am quite confused by the XPath discussions because= XPath can only

access existing nodes (i.e. the "accessible tre= e")

=C2=A0

So what does it mean for the system datastore to con= tain possible values that

cannot be represented in <operational>? The ac= cessible tree cannot include

these values, so XPath-based validation cannot use t= hem.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


/js

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 12:34:45PM +0000, Kent Watse= n wrote:
>
> I am confused by the confusion=C2=A0 ;)
>
> You all know that JUNOS implemented this concept before YANG was even = a thing, right?=C2=A0
>
> Admittedly, it=E2=80=99s not a =E2=80=9Cdatastore=E2=80=9C, but flexin= g the NMDA is where we can do better.
>
> A =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D mechanism could also work.=C2=A0 The o= nly downside is the inability for a client to get only the system configura= tion, without the rest of <running>.=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
> Please stop stating/suggesting =E2=80=9Cconfig true=E2=80=9D nodes are= referencing =E2=80=9Cconfig false=E2=80=9D nodes,=C2=A0 or that config is = referencing operational state.=C2=A0 There is no intention to break either = of these tenants here.=C2=A0
>
> I think that some folks just joined the conversation and may have miss= ed out when we covered all this before.=C2=A0
>
> The draft needs to be updated to more clearly identify the goals.
>
> K.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jac= obs-university.de/>

--00000000000075ee5205c927d571-- From nobody Mon Aug 9 18:59:03 2021 Return-Path: <0100017b2dc8b664-c32e2445-9989-4cd2-9d30-83ce1eb4b2b5-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE67C3A21BC for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2021 18:59:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J_Vbp17Ln5bi for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2021 18:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36A303A21BB for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2021 18:58:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1628560733; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=EaUNSw4MHL/7S8fM2GTiVf9RrFybh3p+CaAnu+Pmf4w=; b=ZH+DCNZo0jaYUHgohoaM1FUcQbNaFxgAZdyjJoOTkvEY+ZEskb7AJyqYTmcKdfsg +imjg4qmZSE7PBOZHvY5NQ+xRmZzgxne3w+ksNap6xc5IewdczuQDiNV1xCF3h6Sx4V QKIvNjqBI6KYdORRQV868YEpSYThHZRXAR2H4pRA= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017b2dc8b664-c32e2445-9989-4cd2-9d30-83ce1eb4b2b5-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5DDC672C-48E7-46D4-9EDB-8C360EE9B081" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 01:58:53 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , "netmod@ietf.org" To: Andy Bierman References: <0100017b1128b30f-fe4c9258-3392-476a-ae21-604d2a80f523-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20210804133956.p73si5f63t4esmcj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2021.08.10-54.240.48.92 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 01:59:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5DDC672C-48E7-46D4-9EDB-8C360EE9B081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 There was a request for concrete use cases. This email from before was = good: = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/v5cNLcC2F_OT8t-407F3Zj6Vws4/ = More below: > On Aug 9, 2021, at 6:23 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 2:51 PM Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) = > wrote: > Hi guys, >=20 > =20 >=20 > I'm late to the game on this thread but I did read through the entire = thing (whew - can't promise I absorbed every nuance though). I am = familiar with this issue. I've been dealing with it from the server = implementation side (some clients *do* complain if there are references = to missing "system config" list entries). >=20 > =20 >=20 > One of the pretty fundamental issues IMO is whether we want good ol' = standard to always be valid (including for an offline client = or tool to be able to validate instance data retrieved from a server = against the YANG models). Even without this "system config" topic, we = already have a looming problem with config templates & expansion. = Servers with YANG models that document a lot of constraints (e.g. = leafrefs, mandatory statements, etc) are more likely to hit this issue = of an invalid running config (offline). >=20 I think that it is already the case with JUNOS that by itself = cannot be validated by a client unaware of how JUNOS templates work=E2=80=A6= as the templates may supply mandatory nodes and/or values, or some = validations only make sense to evaluate when the config is flattened = (e.g., ensuring "max-elements" is not exceeded, ensuring ACLs always end = with a terminal rules, etc.). > I'm doubtful that it is easy for a client to know how templates are = expanded for all given servers. Unless that expansion is fully = standardized (which would be challenging given multiple different = shipping implementations in the industry), there can be some subtle = corner cases and it can be complex (multiple levels of template = application, exclusion rules, etc). >=20 Agreed, not easy but=E2=80=A6 Some [smart] clients may never need to grok how device-level templates = are expanded. For instance, the NMS I worked on in a previous life = would always onboard a new device by asking the device to provide its = config already expanded, and thereafter would never send = templated-config to the device (note: the NMS had its own template = mechanism). =20 On the other end of the client-spectrum, other [dumb] clients may also = not need to grok how device-level templates are expanded, as they mostly = push simple updates (e.g., open a port) known to pass validation and/or = rely on server-side validation. Of course, there MAY be clients in-between that read/write = templated-config and, if they wish to perform off-box validation, most = likely will need to grok how templates are expanded. > I agree there can be dynamically added system config (e.g. create a = new qos policy, and some queue list entries are automatically created = inside that policy). >=20 I'm unsure how this relates. > Note that config added by the system could be deletable or = non-deletable. For deletable items there were some previous discussions = a few years ago that those list entries could be simply a default config = that is populated if the startup datastore is empty at boot time. >=20 Yes, but I that=E2=80=99s a different use-case, right? (see the link to = concrete use cases provided at top) > The system config list entries could also have leafs that are = modifiable and leafs that are immutable. For the modifiable objects I = think this is basically the system merging the explicit config with the = system config (with the explicit taking precedence). The =E2=80=9Cmodifiable=E2=80=9D leafs are in this use-case, assuming = =E2=80=9Cmodifiable" is the synonymous as =E2=80=9Cover-writable". Some = =E2=80=9Cimmutable=E2=80=9D leafs are more like those discussed in RFC = 8342 Section 5, but others are like what Andy discusses below (note: = these immutable nodes are not currently in scope, as I understand it). > Perhaps a lot of this system config is a legacy hold over from = human-driven CLIs. For machine interfaces maybe it's reasonable to have = clients explicitly define their config *if* they need offline validation = of to succeed (i.e. allow clients to explicitly configure any = of the system config policies they are actually using & referencing). = In many cases, users want the "master" view of the config to live up in = the client/OSS side and just push it down to the server (without having = the server touch the contents of the running, i.e. a read-back should = return identically what was sent). >=20 Agree that a read-back of should always return identically = what was sent, but that doesn=E2=80=99t mean that there isn=E2=80=99t = system config in play. > It might be good to set up a virtual interim or call of some sort to = discuss this one. It is pretty complex. >=20 Good idea, but I=E2=80=99d hope first to get past the =E2=80=9Cdo we = understand the requirements=E2=80=9D part of the discussion. Of course, = if people prefer, we could schedule an interim to discuss the use-cases = also. > I think Balasz captured the 2 use-cases very well. The use-cases in his 7/31 message are good, but neither of them are part = this work=E2=80=99s scope, as I understand it. [update: his use-case = =E2=80=98A=E2=80=99 may be in scope, depending on how we set the scope] > For implementations that combine the system into , undoing > this behavior would be quite disruptive and therefore not likely to be = done. I do not support merging into (unless = appropriately-annotated in a =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D = response). I do support merging into . > It would help to have some common understanding of the contents of = . > Maybe start with the well-known "interface problem". The system = configures almost empty physical interfaces. The user is allowed to = add, modify, and delete all descendants except the "name" and "type" = leaf, which are set by the system. I agree that concrete use-cases are needed. The link provided at top = provides some, but not all, and definitely not the specific one you just = mentioned (which regards into Balazs=E2=80=99s use-case =E2=80=98A=E2=80=99= and Jason=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cimmutable=E2=80=9D config). > In this case will have the /interfaces/interface nodes in = them (or else the client-accessible nodes could not be represented in = NETCONF). So any config=3Dtrue XPath can point at name or type leafs in = or . Ack. > I have heard that is needed because it has nodes in it that = do not exist > in or , but could exist. The premise is that = the server could have created these nodes but it did not for some = reason. And the client can inspect these nodes and somehow force the = server to change the nodes it adds to . (So what is the real = use-case then?) This is what the link provided at the top of this message regards. > Retrieving the system-created nodes with origin=3Dsystem is already = supported by NMDA. True, but this =E2=80=9Csystem config=E2=80=9D feels different, or at = least parts of it does. We may need to tease apart the =E2=80=9Cleafref-a= ble system nodes=E2=80=9D from the =E2=80=9Cresource-independent = nodes=E2=80=9D from the =E2=80=9Cresource-dependent nodes=E2=80=9D. K. --Apple-Mail=_5DDC672C-48E7-46D4-9EDB-8C360EE9B081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

There was a request for concrete use = cases.  This email from before was good:

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/v5cNLcC2F_OT8t-407= F3Zj6Vws4/


More below:



On Aug 9, 2021, at 6:23 PM, Andy Bierman = <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 2:51 PM Sterne, Jason (Nokia = - CA/Ottawa) <jason.sterne@nokia.com> wrote:

Hi guys,

 

I'm late to the game on this thread = but I did read through the entire thing (whew - can't promise I absorbed = every nuance though). I am familiar with this issue. I've been dealing = with it from the server implementation side (some clients *do* = complain if there are references to missing "system config" list = entries).

 

One of = the pretty fundamental issues IMO is whether we want good ol' standard = <running> to always be valid (including for an offline client or = tool to be able to validate instance data retrieved from a server against the YANG models). Even without this "system = config" topic, we already have a looming problem with config templates = & expansion.  Servers with YANG models that document a lot of = constraints (e.g. leafrefs, mandatory statements, etc) are more likely to hit this issue of an invalid running config (offline).


I think that it is already the = case with JUNOS that <running> by itself cannot be validated by a = client unaware of how JUNOS templates work=E2=80=A6as the templates may = supply mandatory nodes and/or values, or some validations only make = sense to evaluate when the config is flattened (e.g., ensuring = "max-elements" is not exceeded, ensuring ACLs always end with a terminal = rules, etc.).


I'm doubtful that it is easy for a client to know = how templates are expanded for all given servers. Unless that expansion = is fully standardized (which would be challenging given multiple = different shipping implementations in the industry), there can be some subtle = corner cases and it can be complex (multiple levels of template = application, exclusion rules, = etc).

Agreed, = not easy but=E2=80=A6

Some [smart] = clients may never need to grok how device-level templates are expanded. =  For instance, the NMS I worked on in a previous life would always = onboard a new device by asking the device to provide its = config already expanded, and thereafter would never = send templated-config to the device (note: the NMS had its own template = mechanism).  

On the other end = of the client-spectrum, other [dumb] clients may also not need = to grok how device-level templates are expanded, as they mostly = push simple updates (e.g., open a port) known to pass validation and/or = rely on server-side validation.

Of course, there MAY be clients in-between that read/write = templated-config and, if they wish to perform off-box validation, most = likely will need to grok how templates are = expanded.


I agree there can be dynamically added system config = (e.g. create a new qos policy, and some queue list entries are = automatically created inside that = policy).

I'm unsure = how this relates.


Note that config added by the system could be = deletable or non-deletable. For deletable items there were some previous = discussions a few years ago that those list entries could be simply a = default config that is populated if the startup datastore is empty at boot = time.

Yes, but I = that=E2=80=99s a different use-case, right?  (see the link to = concrete use cases provided at top)


The = system config list entries could also have leafs that are modifiable and = leafs that are immutable. For the modifiable objects I think this is = basically the system merging the explicit config with the system config (with the explicit taking = precedence).
<= br class=3D"">
The =E2=80=9Cmodifiable=E2=80=9D leafs are in = this use-case, assuming =E2=80=9Cmodifiable" is the synonymous as = =E2=80=9Cover-writable".  Some =E2=80=9Cimmutable=E2=80=9D leafs = are more like those discussed in RFC 8342 Section 5, but others are = like what Andy discusses below (note: these immutable nodes are not = currently in scope, as I understand it).


Perhaps a lot of this system config is a legacy hold = over from human-driven CLIs. For machine interfaces maybe it's = reasonable to have clients explicitly define their config *if* they need offline validation of <running> to succeed (i.e. allow clients to = explicitly configure any of the system config policies they are actually = using & referencing).  In many cases, users want the "master" = view of the config to live up in the client/OSS side and just push it down to the server (without having the server touch the = contents of the running, i.e. a read-back should return identically what = was = sent).

Agree = that a read-back of <running> should always return identically = what was sent, but that doesn=E2=80=99t mean that there isn=E2=80=99t = system config in play.

It might be good to set up a virtual interim or call = of some sort to discuss this one. It is pretty = complex.

Good = idea, but I=E2=80=99d hope first to get past the =E2=80=9Cdo we = understand the requirements=E2=80=9D part of the discussion.  Of = course, if people prefer, we could schedule an interim to discuss the = use-cases also.

I = think Balasz captured the 2 use-cases very = well.

The = use-cases in his 7/31 message are good, but neither of them are part = this work=E2=80=99s scope, as I understand it.  [update: his = use-case =E2=80=98A=E2=80=99 may be in scope, depending on how we set = the scope]


For implementations that combine = the system into <running>, undoing
this = behavior would be quite disruptive and therefore not likely to be = done.

I do not = support merging <system> into <running> (unless = appropriately-annotated in a =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D <get-config> response).  I do support merging = <system> into <intended>.


It would help to have some common understanding of the = contents of <system>.
Maybe start with the = well-known "interface problem".  The system configures almost empty = physical interfaces.  The user is allowed to add, modify, and = delete all descendants except the "name" and "type" leaf, which are set = by the system.

I agree that concrete use-cases are needed. =  The link provided at top provides some, but not all, and = definitely not the specific one you just mentioned (which regards into = Balazs=E2=80=99s use-case =E2=80=98A=E2=80=99 and Jason=E2=80=99s = =E2=80=9Cimmutable=E2=80=9D config).


In this case = <running> will have the /interfaces/interface nodes in them (or = else the client-accessible nodes could not be represented in = NETCONF).  So any config=3Dtrue XPath can point at name or type = leafs in <running> or = <operational>.

Ack.


I have heard that = <system> is needed because it has nodes in it that do not = exist
in <running> or <operational>, = but could exist.  The premise is that the server could have created = these nodes but it did not for some reason.  And the client can = inspect these nodes and somehow force the server to change the nodes it = adds to <running>. (So what is the real use-case = then?)

This = is what the link provided at the top of this message = regards.


Retrieving the system-created = nodes with origin=3Dsystem is already supported by = NMDA.

True, = but this =E2=80=9Csystem config=E2=80=9D feels different, or at least = parts of it does.  We may need to tease apart the =E2=80=9Cleafref-ab= le system nodes=E2=80=9D from the =E2=80=9Cresource-independent nodes=E2=80= =9D from the =E2=80=9Cresource-dependent nodes=E2=80=9D.



K.


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mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vo21g_G8OReH for ; Sat, 14 Aug 2021 08:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com (mail-lf1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42A043A12D0 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 2021 08:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id t9so25752484lfc.6 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 2021 08:19:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iStT9yIo1UTlja2qoP42MXZVtlUSV/+4YzNQgnQRDeA=; b=En3HZhFjWV9uS2FA56uSiRxVeDYLV3Xxs5DOFMvDEvb5H/3Qq0VIfH2/mBPP8sJrGr b2zTGLmz8IzlARTHcndfjL6a/vKd+Jf+fZBsrOh7wpzo3tOgyq1AcXu/t05Cq/tI/t8I 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ABdhPJyfi/UEyn0OayYFxxQd3vxaG7NvqoC3P5+l4YjtKsgkWINlZoOXQBGHUNBTufdmViAQPtAVS4/zE93XJGVW+BQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:33cc:: with SMTP id d12mr5169807lfg.577.1628954354800; Sat, 14 Aug 2021 08:19:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0100017b1128b30f-fe4c9258-3392-476a-ae21-604d2a80f523-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20210804133956.p73si5f63t4esmcj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 08:19:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Kent Watsen , NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ac727205c9867d2d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 15:19:30 -0000 --000000000000ac727205c9867d2d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 2:02 PM Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < jason.sterne@nokia.com> wrote: > Hi Andy, > > Pls see inline. > > Jason > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* Monday, August 9, 2021 6:23 PM > *To:* Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > *Cc:* Juergen Schoenwaelder ; Kent > Watsen ; NetMod WG > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 2:51 PM Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < > jason.sterne@nokia.com> wrote: > > Hi guys, > > > > I'm late to the game on this thread but I did read through the entire > thing (whew - can't promise I absorbed every nuance though). I am familia= r > with this issue. I've been dealing with it from the server implementation > side (some clients **do** complain if there are references to missing > "system config" list entries). > > > > One of the pretty fundamental issues IMO is whether we want good ol' > standard to always be valid (including for an offline client or > tool to be able to validate instance data retrieved from a server against > the YANG models). Even without this "system config" topic, we already hav= e > a looming problem with config templates & expansion. Servers with YANG > models that document a lot of constraints (e.g. leafrefs, mandatory > statements, etc) are more likely to hit this issue of an invalid running > config (offline). > > > > I'm doubtful that it is easy for a client to know how templates are > expanded for all given servers. Unless that expansion is fully standardiz= ed > (which would be challenging given multiple different shipping > implementations in the industry), there can be some subtle corner cases a= nd > it can be complex (multiple levels of template application, exclusion > rules, etc). > > > > I agree there can be dynamically added system config (e.g. create a new > qos policy, and some queue list entries are automatically created inside > that policy). > > > > Note that config added by the system could be deletable or non-deletable. > For deletable items there were some previous discussions a few years ago > that those list entries could be simply a default config that is populate= d > if the startup datastore is empty at boot time. > > > > The system config list entries could also have leafs that are modifiable > and leafs that are immutable. For the modifiable objects I think this is > basically the system merging the explicit config with the system config > (with the explicit taking precedence). > > > > Perhaps a lot of this system config is a legacy hold over from > human-driven CLIs. For machine interfaces maybe it's reasonable to have > clients explicitly define their config **if** they need offline > validation of to succeed (i.e. allow clients to explicitly > configure any of the system config policies they are actually using & > referencing). In many cases, users want the "master" view of the config = to > live up in the client/OSS side and just push it down to the server (witho= ut > having the server touch the contents of the running, i.e. a read-back > should return identically what was sent). > > > > It might be good to set up a virtual interim or call of some sort to > discuss this one. It is pretty complex. > > > > > > I think Balasz captured the 2 use-cases very well. > > *[>>JTS: ] I looked back at Balasz' email and I don't see clear use cases= . > Do you mean his P1, etc principles ?* > > > It was a different email I think proposing extensions instead of a datastore. I actually do not really understand the 4 principles he mentioned: *P1) =E2=80=9CThere is a need to validate configuration data against data c= reated by the system.=E2=80=9D* *P2) We want the running datastore to contain exactly what the operator has written there* *P3) the running/intended configuration MAY become invalid if the system-data changes.* *P4) rfc8342#section-5.3.4 MUST always be valid* What does P1 really mean? Provide a complete example using XML represented datastores (not proprietary CLI) P2) Why? What problem does this solve? What if the system creates an interface list? How does the client add any child nodes if this interface is not allowed to be represented in ? IMO P2 does not even make any sense. The "origin" attribute identifies the nodes that came from the system. This is not visible in only because of CLRs in the RFC. It is visible in , P3) not sure what this means. This is not what RFC 8342 says about P4) I agree with-origin must be supported (but it is an optional feature) It is not possible for to always be complete and correct, as discussed in NMDA, 5.3. The YANG module in this proposal simply adds an identity for a new datastore. There are no examples and the guidelines in NMDA, Appendix A are not followed. The reason was left out of NMDA seems to be because the system is completely proprietary and not constrained in any way wrt/ how config and operational data nodes are instantiated. > For implementations that combine the system into , undoing > > this behavior would be quite disruptive and therefore not likely to be > done. > > > > *[>>JTS: ] I'm not necessarily advocating for the existence of a > DS, but there are various implementations for this problem space and some > don't put these system objects (list entries) into . I'm doubtfu= l > about automatically putting system config into . That means the > client no longer really owns/controls . Readback won't return wh= at > was sent. The definitive would then have to sit on the server > (i.e. can't have the client as the definitive view/ownership of running).= * > > > > It would help to have some common understanding of the contents of > . > > Maybe start with the well-known "interface problem". The system > configures almost empty physical interfaces. > > The user is allowed to add, modify, and delete all descendants except the > "name" and "type" leaf, > > which are set by the system. > > > > In this case will have the /interfaces/interface nodes in them > (or else the client-accessible > > nodes could not be represented in NETCONF). So any config=3Dtrue XPath c= an > point at name or type leafs > > in or . > > *[>>JTS: ] An alternative is that these interfaces are *not* added to > unless a client explicitly adds them. The server could > potentially consider leafrefs to them valid even if they aren't explicitl= y > added. But if a user has a workflow that does offline validation, then th= ey > could explicitly add the interfaces into * > I still have no idea what problem this solves. Maybe it is to make NMDA as hard to adopt as possible, by being as different from non-NMDA as possible? > > > I have heard that is needed because it has nodes in it that do > not exist > > in or , but could exist. > > > > The premise is that the server could have created these nodes > > but it did not for some reason. And the client can inspect these nodes > and somehow > > force the server to change the nodes it adds to . (So what is th= e > real use-case then?) > > > > Retrieving the system-created nodes with origin=3Dsystem is already > supported by NMDA. > > *[>>JTS: ] I don't think reading these nodes from addresses > the issue. Clients do a from (or maybe ) > and want to be able to validate that config against the YANG model (witho= ut > having to do additional reads from operational).* > > > Why does the client need to know the origin of the data in in order to validate it? (Again, origin is only restricted to because the RFC forbids anything else). > > > > > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > Andy > > > > Andy > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 4, 2021 9:59 AM > *To:* Juergen Schoenwaelder ; Kent > Watsen ; Andy Bierman ; NetMod WG < > netmod@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 6:39 AM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > > The figure in RFC 8342 section 5 documents what was agreed upon > before. System configuration flows into but not upwards > into . Over the years, we discussed several corner cases > (including things like configuring a new user and the system > automatically assigns an unused uid, which afterwards needs to be kept > stable). While there are for sure tricky corner cases, I am not > convinced that the model defined in RFC 8342 for the general cases is > wrong and that merging a new system datastore into is the > right approach. If people want to change the model documented in RFC > 8342, then they should make an explicit statement about this and > provide strong reasons that the model is flawed or incomplete. > > Note that the model does allow having a system client merging config > into (ideally controlled by an ACM so that such a client can > be turned off if it leads to surprises). > > > > > > This is a solved problem in proprietary ways. It is simple to treat > system config > > as an access control issue. > > > > I am quite concerned that NMDA is getting extended in ways that lead to > > confusion and poor interoperability. Adding a new datastore is very > serious. > > IMO ANY new datastore (even factory default) should be standardized in > > a new version of NMDA (replacing RFC 8342). > > > > A datastore has a lot of baggage > > - YANG library > > - YANG XPath evaluation > > - subtree and XPath filtered retrieval > > - usage in RPC operations (ds:datastore data type parameter) > > > > Every time a datastore is added, all the existing RPC operations that use > > datastores need to be clarified wrt/ support for the new datastore. > > (Of course this is never done, leading to lots of interoperability issues= ) > > > > I am quite confused by the XPath discussions because XPath can only > > access existing nodes (i.e. the "accessible tree") > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-6.4.1 > > > > So what does it mean for the system datastore to contain possible values > that > > cannot be represented in ? The accessible tree cannot includ= e > > these values, so XPath-based validation cannot use them. > > > > > > > /js > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 12:34:45PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > I am confused by the confusion ;) > > > > You all know that JUNOS implemented this concept before YANG was even a > thing, right? > > > > Admittedly, it=E2=80=99s not a =E2=80=9Cdatastore=E2=80=9C, but flexing= the NMDA is where we can > do better. > > > > A =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D mechanism could also work. The only do= wnside is the > inability for a client to get only the system configuration, without the > rest of . > > > > Please stop stating/suggesting =E2=80=9Cconfig true=E2=80=9D nodes are = referencing > =E2=80=9Cconfig false=E2=80=9D nodes, or that config is referencing oper= ational state. > There is no intention to break either of these tenants here. > > > > I think that some folks just joined the conversation and may have misse= d > out when we covered all this before. > > > > The draft needs to be updated to more clearly identify the goals. > > > > K. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > --000000000000ac727205c9867d2d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 2:02 PM Stern= e, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <= jason.sterne@nokia.com> wrote:

Hi Andy,

Pls see inline.

Jason

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 6:23 PM
To: Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <jason.sterne@nokia.com>
Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 2:51 PM Sterne, Jason (Nokia = - CA/Ottawa) <jason.sterne@nokia.com> wrote:

Hi guys,

=C2=A0

I'm late to the game on this thread but I did re= ad through the entire thing (whew - can't promise I absorbed every nuan= ce though). I am familiar with this issue. I've been dealing with it from the server implementation side (some clients *do* comp= lain if there are references to missing "system config" list entr= ies).

=C2=A0

One of the pretty fundamental issues IMO is whether = we want good ol' standard <running> to always be valid (including= for an offline client or tool to be able to validate instance data retrieved from a server against the YANG models). Even without this &= quot;system config" topic, we already have a looming problem with conf= ig templates & expansion.=C2=A0 Servers with YANG models that document = a lot of constraints (e.g. leafrefs, mandatory statements, etc) are more likely to hit this issue of an invalid running config (offli= ne).

=C2=A0

I'm doubtful that it is easy for a client to kno= w how templates are expanded for all given servers. Unless that expansion i= s fully standardized (which would be challenging given multiple different shipping implementations in the industry), there can be= some subtle corner cases and it can be complex (multiple levels of templat= e application, exclusion rules, etc).

=C2=A0

I agree there can be dynamically added system config= (e.g. create a new qos policy, and some queue list entries are automatical= ly created inside that policy).

=C2=A0

Note that config added by the system could be deleta= ble or non-deletable. For deletable items there were some previous discussi= ons a few years ago that those list entries could be simply a default config that is populated if the startup datastore is e= mpty at boot time.

=C2=A0

The system config list entries could also have leafs= that are modifiable and leafs that are immutable. For the modifiable objec= ts I think this is basically the system merging the explicit config with the system config (with the explicit taking precedenc= e).

=C2=A0

Perhaps a lot of this system config is a legacy hold= over from human-driven CLIs. For machine interfaces maybe it's reasona= ble to have clients explicitly define their config *if* they need offline validation of <running> to succeed (i.e. allow cli= ents to explicitly configure any of the system config policies they are act= ually using & referencing).=C2=A0 In many cases, users want the "m= aster" view of the config to live up in the client/OSS side and just push it down to the server (without having the server touch = the contents of the running, i.e. a read-back should return identically wha= t was sent).

=C2=A0

It might be good to set up a virtual interim or call= of some sort to discuss this one. It is pretty complex.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I think Balasz captured the 2 use-cases very well.

[>>JTS: ] I looked back at Balasz' e= mail and I don't see clear use cases. Do you mean his P1, etc principle= s ?

=C2=A0




It was a di= fferent email I think proposing extensions instead of a datastore.

I actually do not really understand the 4 principles he me= ntioned:

P1) =E2=80=9CThere is a nee= d to validate configuration data against data created by the system.=E2=80= =9D

= P2) We want the running datastore to contain exactly what the operator has = written there

P3) the running/intended configuration MAY become invalid = if the system-data changes.

= P4) rfc8342#section-5.3.4 MUST always be val= id


What does P1 really mean?
Provide a complete example using XML represented datastores (not pr= oprietary CLI)

P2) Why? What problem does this sol= ve? What if the system creates an interface list?
How does the cl= ient add any child nodes if this interface is not allowed to be represented=
in <running>?=C2=A0 IMO P2 does not even=C2=A0make any sen= se.=C2=A0=C2=A0

The "origin" attrib= ute identifies the nodes that came from the system.
This is not v= isible in <running> only because of=C2=A0CLRs in the RFC.
I= t is visible in <operational>,

P3) not= sure what this means. This is not what RFC 8342 says about <intended>= ;

P4) I agree with-origin must be supported (but i= t is an optional feature)
It is not possible for <operational&= gt; to always be complete and correct,
as discussed in NMDA, 5.3.=

The YANG module in this proposal simply adds an i= dentity for a new datastore.
There are no examples and the guidel= ines in NMDA, Appendix A are not followed.

The rea= son <system> was left out of NMDA seems to be because the system is
completely proprietary and not constrained in any way wrt/ how con= fig and operational
data nodes are instantiated.


=C2=A0

For implementations that combine the system into <= ;running>, undoing

this behavior would be quite disruptive and therefor= e not likely to be done.

=C2=A0

[>>JTS: ] I'm not necessarily advoca= ting for the existence of a <system> DS, but there are various implem= entations for this problem space and some don't put these system object= s (list entries) into <running>. I'm doubtful about automatically putting system config into <running>. That means the client no longe= r really owns/controls <running>. Readback won't return what was = sent. The definitive <running> would then have to sit on the server (= i.e. can't have the client as the definitive view/ownership of running).

=C2=A0

It would help to have some common understanding of t= he contents of <system>.

Maybe start with the well-known "interface prob= lem".=C2=A0 The system configures almost empty physical interfaces.=

The user is allowed to add, modify, and delete all d= escendants except the "name" and "type" leaf,=

which are set by the system.

=C2=A0

In this case <running> will have the /interfac= es/interface nodes in them (or else the client-accessible

nodes could not be represented in NETCONF).=C2=A0 So= any config=3Dtrue XPath can point at name or type leafs

in <running> or <operational>.=

[>>JTS: ] An alternative is that these i= nterfaces are *not* added to <running> unless a client explicitly add= s them. The server could potentially consider leafrefs to them valid even i= f they aren't explicitly added. But if a user has a workflow that does offline validation, then they could explicitly ad= d the interfaces into <running>



I still have no i= dea what problem this solves.
Maybe it is to make NMDA as hard to= adopt as possible,
by being as different from non-NMDA as possib= le?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I have heard that <system> is needed because i= t has nodes in it that do not exist

in <running> or <operational>, but could= exist.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The premise is that the server could have created th= ese nodes

but it did not for some reason.=C2=A0 And the client= can inspect these nodes and somehow

force the server to change the nodes it adds to <= running>. (So what is the real use-case then?)

=C2=A0

Retrieving the system-created nodes with origin=3Dsy= stem is already supported by NMDA.

[>>JTS: ] I don't think reading thes= e nodes from <operational> addresses the issue. Clients do a <get-= config> from <running> (or maybe <intended>) and want to be = able to validate that config against the YANG model (without having to do additional reads from operational).

=C2=A0




Why does th= e client need to know the origin of the data in <intended>
= in order to validate it?=C2=A0 (Again, origin is only restricted to <ope= rational> because
the RFC forbids anything else).
=C2=A0
=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Jason

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0





<= /div>
Andy

=C2=A0
<= div>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 9:59 AM
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@= ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 6:39 AM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6= nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:<= u>

The figure in RFC 8342 section 5 documents what was = agreed upon
before. System configuration flows into <operational> but not upwards=
into <running>. Over the years, we discussed several corner cases
(including things like configuring a new user and the system
automatically assigns an unused uid, which afterwards needs to be kept
stable). While there are for sure tricky corner cases, I am not
convinced that the model defined in RFC 8342 for the general cases is
wrong and that merging a new system datastore into <running> is the right approach. If people want to change the model documented in RFC
8342, then they should make an explicit statement about this and
provide strong reasons that the model is flawed or incomplete.

Note that the model does allow having a system client merging config
into <running> (ideally controlled by an ACM so that such a client ca= n
be turned off if it leads to surprises).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

This is a solved problem in proprietary ways.=C2=A0 = It is simple to treat system config

as an access control issue.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I am quite concerned that NMDA is getting extended i= n ways that lead to

confusion and poor interoperability.=C2=A0 Adding a = new datastore is very serious.

IMO ANY new datastore (even factory default) should = be standardized in

a new version of NMDA (replacing RFC 8342).

=C2=A0

A datastore has a lot of baggage

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- YANG library

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- YANG XPath evaluation

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- subtree and XPath filtered retrieval<= u>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- usage in RPC operations (ds:datastore= data type parameter)

=C2=A0

Every time a datastore is added, all the existing RP= C operations that use

datastores need to be clarified wrt/ support for the= new datastore.

(Of course this is never done, leading to lots of in= teroperability issues)

=C2=A0

I am quite confused by the XPath discussions because= XPath can only

access existing nodes (i.e. the "accessible tre= e")

=C2=A0

So what does it mean for the system datastore to con= tain possible values that

cannot be represented in <operational>? The ac= cessible tree cannot include

these values, so XPath-based validation cannot use t= hem.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


/js

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 12:34:45PM +0000, Kent Watse= n wrote:
>
> I am confused by the confusion=C2=A0 ;)
>
> You all know that JUNOS implemented this concept before YANG was even = a thing, right?=C2=A0
>
> Admittedly, it=E2=80=99s not a =E2=80=9Cdatastore=E2=80=9C, but flexin= g the NMDA is where we can do better.
>
> A =E2=80=9Cwith-system=E2=80=9D mechanism could also work.=C2=A0 The o= nly downside is the inability for a client to get only the system configura= tion, without the rest of <running>.=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
> Please stop stating/suggesting =E2=80=9Cconfig true=E2=80=9D nodes are= referencing =E2=80=9Cconfig false=E2=80=9D nodes,=C2=A0 or that config is = referencing operational state.=C2=A0 There is no intention to break either = of these tenants here.=C2=A0
>
> I think that some folks just joined the conversation and may have miss= ed out when we covered all this before.=C2=A0
>
> The draft needs to be updated to more clearly identify the goals.
>
> K.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jac= obs-university.de/>

--000000000000ac727205c9867d2d-- From nobody Sun Aug 15 12:49:28 2021 Return-Path: <0100017b4b5c7621-4fc7fabb-b0f2-4169-a499-12ed91ec1241-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1163A21A8 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2021 12:49:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6HFYaSUmDsxZ for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2021 12:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-33.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-33.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2AA83A21E0 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2021 12:49:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1629056956; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=sHTg0r5eVIokaf5i6EHAAIi+/RR+4nFr1lY8MlpFiAo=; b=hDz47Ff9+yQ9uSumjR7M9r8hjun31ByanPVexfPzJQEs4cGSILt8vgoVOYDh2zr/ JM2pRW6MLE9+c5FdKPr++YdAz8n+vnm/9befmTzIlZlBSRY35XZa3X8gN1dOIvbpc01 CYeVokgs87U0ZcloAsJgGRKXG5pk6sINHdjx/kiw= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017b4b5c7621-4fc7fabb-b0f2-4169-a499-12ed91ec1241-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1AB3E6DD-4EB4-4237-BE0F-7AF5E2D06892" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 19:49:16 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" To: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , Andy Bierman References: <0100017b1128b30f-fe4c9258-3392-476a-ae21-604d2a80f523-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20210804133956.p73si5f63t4esmcj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2021.08.15-54.240.8.33 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 19:49:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1AB3E6DD-4EB4-4237-BE0F-7AF5E2D06892 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > It was a different email I think proposing extensions instead of a = datastore. This email: = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/SHRPSxHIDxsfF2t0GXXiyFHOnGw/ = K. --Apple-Mail=_1AB3E6DD-4EB4-4237-BE0F-7AF5E2D06892 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
It = was a different email I think proposing extensions instead of a = datastore.


K.

= --Apple-Mail=_1AB3E6DD-4EB4-4237-BE0F-7AF5E2D06892-- From nobody Mon Aug 16 12:21:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5E03A088F for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 12:21:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L0hLr5_jX1sz for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 12:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA0603A0898 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 12:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id y7so28922278ljp.3 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 12:20:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vZobQo4riFiEnR9y7MU/7wvrLYl/ONOfUxABA3UySXI=; b=bmuZV/STrD+ZEp7lq1xf83ozXpROq+WNgQwzwqzoGprxtVzsIRkXQVOcgNnx5OADVP V9bUTm6lRZsafTnuGFrlofho921ktdFkMuLM5DlVt8QxTyS8cwIdrUXyCexQPwsA0m5c M838ukGrH4xxCa50/1f45JJT5a2iqptOuO836JT/JgAMKqv1AnJxzytUU92Mfvv3rCNr yJFTPCyw2ulM8ZD8dC9zlKIm+Agb9M8P0K/Se2twpgJ9O2v6sLYDMv2wDLfJKyaaL/Ya /9J2mIbMfkA94wvJu88I5bVDu+5/3AmlCOxeAPc2xS66usaRihuHn8bRr0BvuXg4lEg6 YB8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vZobQo4riFiEnR9y7MU/7wvrLYl/ONOfUxABA3UySXI=; b=GOmA5gDu3q8Pkr5U+BB/e3Dz76KLcdFC6LTZ1nfoloVjTslVLpFHmCN6vx+uExP3Kh f0CYG4+HT/p8+eS46sP+1zjt0oQdSzgh39KG59KI2x4iHv9yn8Crua9nw9gOsHCR3m1H lEa374RQIPQzL2ZTOcrY5cNA2SNYTdY7peruHpG8j+U1TaO7vYVOOt0/AC3415PG4zaZ ObTnOvzeD8CZS6mrx1Ya2ksn0Rd+gtRc3SjqYeTvzDlCzO7u7yALT7QPY/UQqBu/g3mC cBuooyFXT6+Uchnv6jAfBjbG/PudKbg9kwhXRTSx3bQTzSxzmU0DBWuUpRv/UBDXMza6 WTjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5332v3MKD8Qd8JtofJByv5PN2OfbhGvN43n+OI7Psx+9VZsS7QVh V5FnTx6I1KbgPcH01Td46WWE4DiHoHbUb3G9FoML1NBTMoARnotE X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw+MN9iF3RRrV/3kFwgVf7+Jvfpw5MwZY6v0NvVSuCxLDyIzF1PAxXo+WKVhQema7YoHzXd2Za62QpX+tDzPGY= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:954b:: with SMTP id t11mr139732ljh.105.1629141652092; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 12:20:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0100017b1128b30f-fe4c9258-3392-476a-ae21-604d2a80f523-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20210804133956.p73si5f63t4esmcj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <0100017b4b5c7621-4fc7fabb-b0f2-4169-a499-12ed91ec1241-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <0100017b4b5c7621-4fc7fabb-b0f2-4169-a499-12ed91ec1241-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 12:20:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000764b0305c9b219f0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 19:21:01 -0000 --000000000000764b0305c9b219f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:49 PM Kent Watsen wrote: > > It was a different email I think proposing extensions instead of a > datastore. > > > This email: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/SHRPSxHIDxsfF2t0GXXiyFHOnGw/ > > What is the purpose of system-configuration Use-case A) The system sets some values because it knows what they shall be. In this case the client must not be allowed to modify these values. We want to check configuration data against these values. E.g., AcmeHomeRouter has 5 interfaces called eth0, eth1, eth,2, eth3 and WAN. The client should not try to add or remove interfaces to this set. Use-case B) The system provides initial values for something that can be configured in many ways. In this case the client is free to modify the system-defined values. E.g., an initial set of NACM rules is provided. In this case any constraints based on the system data are very weak, as the user can change the system-data itself. It is possible to support these use-cases with access-control conventions. I re-read RFC 8808 and 8342 again. IMO this draft overlaps the factory-default datastore. Unfortunately, RFC 8808 does not document NMDA, Appendix A3 details https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8342#appendix-A.3 It does not say if datastore feeds into or into . It is not clear how would interact with other datastores. It is not clear why it is even needed since contains only system settings. K. > > Andy --000000000000764b0305c9b219f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:49 PM Kent= Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net<= /a>> wrote:
<= div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
It was a different email I think proposing exten= sions instead of a datastore.

= 


What is the purpose of syste=
m-configuration

Use-case A)    The system sets some values because it knows what they shall
be. In this case the client must not be allowed to modify these values. We
want to check configuration data against these values.  E.g., AcmeHomeRoute=
r
has 5 interfaces called eth0, eth1, eth,2, eth3 and WAN. The client should
not try to add or remove interfaces to this set.

Use-case B)    The system provides initial values for something that can be
configured in many ways. In this case the client is free to modify the
system-defined values. E.g., an initial set of NACM rules is provided. In
this case any constraints based on the system data are very weak, as the
user can change the system-data itself.
It is possible to support these use-cases with access-control convent= ions.

I re-read RFC 8808 and 8342 again.
IMO this draft o= verlaps the factory-default datastore.
Unfortunately, RFC 8808 do= es not document NMDA, Appendix A3 details

It doe= s not say if <factory-default> datastore feeds into <running> o= r into <intended>.
It is not clear how <system> would= interact with other datastores.
It is not clear why it is even n= eeded since <factory-default> contains only system settings.


K.


Andy
=C2=A0
--000000000000764b0305c9b219f0-- From nobody Mon Aug 16 14:59:55 2021 Return-Path: <0100017b50fa4b16-642498ba-3076-485e-9ed2-992aca11e649-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F643A1A6D for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 14:59:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x-ljhpVjQrgZ for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 14:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A16EE3A1A75 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 14:59:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1629151185; h=From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Message-Id:Date:To:Feedback-ID; bh=OJ9o/u+q/Wnz9WXs/HSFW61mFyouvLlnT6y6X1X3CEM=; b=STF8R3Cr1WdSsp2htiJEFwP0qwUpYx2P4rZsp7bB1bg3ZZMgf37kQ2Dos7pb8vEV FmbpBA27C1aK0RaigBV5iBn/4hvH+qVnAfBqMmLMsFoXO/0xcfX7Vi/qRVoooM8QPKV S78dpsH8TuyZqdHnulsczA9KEiKQmF75HWwaPCp8= From: Kent Watsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Message-ID: <0100017b50fa4b16-642498ba-3076-485e-9ed2-992aca11e649-000000@email.amazonses.com> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 21:59:45 +0000 To: "netmod@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2021.08.16-54.240.48.92 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Draft 111 minutes posted X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 21:59:53 -0000 NETMOD WG, The draft minutes from the 111 session have been posted: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/minutes-111-netmod-00 Please take a moment to ensure that your valuable comments have been = captured. Kent and Lou (and Joel) From nobody Mon Aug 16 15:17:26 2021 Return-Path: <0100017b510a6614-1c248a24-a5e0-4c0b-ad65-0ab44e150273-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A553A1CED; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 15:17:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uADR3SPec7yR; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 15:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F45D3A1A70; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 15:17:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1629152241; h=From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Message-Id:Date:Cc:To:Feedback-ID; bh=CZM27BGHD9FWbId4nDKTWyVA1R1GzfKhyxlujuBy+es=; b=bWwDndPbO78rgJeR6DRc0XEvYvECpEi+R4MnE7FSPRRHhENlrvSWBnZHCT9iw8Z5 loCsy7UxgVlnZNdvcIJQBCFGHTf3mRGElDWz3/eaej7R3+7Qbddz08yyRoq/6VDkZYG x4F6W7ji3YvMlvikC+RvIsnFp5VE4/PX0dq9J37E= From: Kent Watsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Message-ID: <0100017b510a6614-1c248a24-a5e0-4c0b-ad65-0ab44e150273-000000@email.amazonses.com> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 22:17:21 +0000 Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" To: draft-ma-netconf-with-system@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2021.08.16-54.240.48.92 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] virtual interim prep X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 22:17:25 -0000 WG and Authors of draft-ma-netconf-with-system, Per the 111 session, the chairs discussed having a virtual interim. If = the WG agrees, we=E2=80=99d like to schedule one for sometime in = October.=20 Before scheduling, we feel that use-cases should be nailed down better, = taking into account all the WG comments so far (thank you Andy, Balazs, = Jason, Frank, Juergen, and Qiufang). The use-cases could go into a = draft update, but submitted as draft-ma-netmod-with-system-00. If an = update is submitted, it might be good to leave out solution details, so = as to not dilute focus from the use-case analysis. Makes sense? Kent and Lou (and Joel) From nobody Mon Aug 16 18:14:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF383A0BD6 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 18:14:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9MmdfbOsIQz6 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 18:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by 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CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism Thread-Index: AdeS/smIORNkTLFjSz+tOLhWazMEpw== Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 01:13:58 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.123.117] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ad7ec21e0d3d477b91bebdfdeec01303huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 01:14:14 -0000 --_000_ad7ec21e0d3d477b91bebdfdeec01303huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksIEFuZHk6DQpBIGZldyBjbGFyaWZpY2F0aW9ucyBiZWxvdy4NCj7lj5Hku7bkuro6IG5ldG1v 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(SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4GpcqY0Zz9z6BGPh; Tue, 17 Aug 2021 12:04:41 +0800 (CST) Received: from dggeme770-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.116) by fraeml734-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.215) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.8; Tue, 17 Aug 2021 06:05:29 +0200 Received: from dggeme770-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.116) by dggeme770-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.116) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2176.2; Tue, 17 Aug 2021 12:05:27 +0800 Received: from dggeme770-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.8.68.58]) by dggeme770-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.8.68.58]) with mapi id 15.01.2176.012; Tue, 17 Aug 2021 12:05:27 +0800 From: "maqiufang (A)" To: Kent Watsen , "draft-ma-netconf-with-system@ietf.org" CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: virtual interim prep Thread-Index: AQHXkuyF1Unv4IGxKE+IWG54BiByyqt3CPTQ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 04:05:27 +0000 Message-ID: <669a16193b82411d9502543b87b5dbd0@huawei.com> References: <0100017b510a6614-1c248a24-a5e0-4c0b-ad65-0ab44e150273-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <0100017b510a6614-1c248a24-a5e0-4c0b-ad65-0ab44e150273-000000@email.amazonses.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.123.93] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] virtual interim prep X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 04:05:38 -0000 SGksIGNoYWlycywNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIHByb3Bvc2FsLiBJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgdXNlLWNh c2UgYW5hbHlzaXMgYW5kIHByb2JsZW0gc3RhdGVtZW50IGFyZSBuZWVkZWQgYmVmb3JlIHdlIGRp c2N1c3MgYW55IHNvbHV0aW9uIGRldGFpbHMuICANCldlIHdpbGwgd29yayBvbiB0aGlzIGZpcnN0 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aXR0ZWQgYXMgZHJhZnQtbWEtbmV0bW9kLXdpdGgtc3lzdGVtLTAwLiAgSWYgYW4gdXBkYXRlIGlz IHN1Ym1pdHRlZCwgaXQgbWlnaHQgYmUgZ29vZCB0byBsZWF2ZSBvdXQgc29sdXRpb24gZGV0YWls cywgc28gYXMgdG8gbm90IGRpbHV0ZSBmb2N1cyBmcm9tIHRoZSB1c2UtY2FzZSBhbmFseXNpcy4g IE1ha2VzIHNlbnNlPw0KDQpLZW50IGFuZCBMb3UgKGFuZCBKb2VsKQ0KDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Aug 17 11:21:27 2021 Return-Path: <0100017b5558ab9d-43cdec2f-59c4-4ff0-97e2-3b90cfca869d-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA563A295C for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2021 11:21:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oxmM4HzAWQdQ for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2021 11:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-33.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-33.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 060A93A2958 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2021 11:21:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1629224479; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=dPkYf2EOpBzH9wXzru9bQ7GgMDU7R8VllxpTtP8Kvs8=; b=XrXPjFSeu5oZhT0GAFB5/stGAouuNAsHljJPAjSa38yCDN+ngqxrl5boW8xBwUgf 6EpXciaZv9S92QtxXFBsus5S/FY5hXWyt/MI5lDuiKG5HHbhyLYsbU/aBJRJIrbrG0Q UI8QMu3vzMOm3oA/ojuIg3SEwqypMgejWTKq7OjE= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017b5558ab9d-43cdec2f-59c4-4ff0-97e2-3b90cfca869d-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F229ED05-674A-4B97-A88D-B773423E4B1D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 18:21:19 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Andy Bierman , "netmod@ietf.org" To: Qin Wu References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2021.08.17-54.240.8.33 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 18:21:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F229ED05-674A-4B97-A88D-B773423E4B1D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > >IMO this draft overlaps the factory-default datastore. > >Unfortunately, RFC 8808 does not document NMDA, Appendix A3 details > >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8342#appendix-A.3 = > >It does not say if datastore feeds into = or into . > >It is not clear how would interact with other datastores. > [Qin]: As described in Appendix-A.3, two ways to interact with other = datastore are discussed, one is interact implicitly, the other is to use > RPC to trigger application of the datastore's data, in factory default = setting case, rpc will reset the contents of all = relevant datastores to factory default state. > The extreme case of factory default state is no configuration at all = for each datastore. Right. Also, the word =E2=80=9Cflow=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t seem quite = right=E2=80=A6at least in my mind, it suggests an ongoing relationship, = whereas is really for one-time initializations. =46rom https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8808#section-3: Management operations: The contents of the datastore is set by the server in an implementation-dependent manner. The contents cannot be changed by management operations via the Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF), RESTCONF, the CLI, etc., unless specialized, dedicated operations are provided. The datastore can be read using the standard NETCONF/RESTCONF protocol operations. The "factory-reset" operation copies the factory default contents to and, if present, and/or . The contents of these datastores is then propagated automatically to any other read-only datastores, e.g., and . > >It is not clear why it is even needed since = contains only system settings. > [Qin]: I agree could have system setting. But = unspecified for some reasons. > Based on earlier discussion on factory default, what content is = included in and how to format this content, e.g., YANG = instance file format > Have been ruled out of the scope. See the diff in v-07 > = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-07.t= xt = Regardless, cannot be used for immutable =E2=80=9Csystem= " defined objects, since it=E2=80=99s contents initialize = client-editable datastores. K. --Apple-Mail=_F229ED05-674A-4B97-A88D-B773423E4B1D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
>IMO this draft overlaps the factory-default = datastore.
>Unfortunately, RFC 8808 does not document NMDA, Appendix = A3 details
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8342#appendix-A.3<= o:p class=3D"">
>It = does not say if <factory-default> datastore feeds into = <running> or into <intended>.
>It is not clear how = <system> would interact with other datastores.
[Qin]: As described in Appendix-A.3, two ways to interact = with other datastore are discussed, one is interact implicitly, the = other is to use
RPC to trigger application of the datastore's data, in = factory default setting case, <factory-reset> rpc will reset the = contents of all relevant datastores to factory default state.
The extreme = case of factory default state is no configuration at all for each = datastore.
Right.  Also, the word =E2=80=9Cflow=E2=80=9D = doesn=E2=80=99t seem quite right=E2=80=A6at least in my mind, it = suggests an ongoing relationship, whereas <factory-default> is = really for one-time initializations.

From https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8808#section-3:

  =  Management operations:  The contents of the datastore is set = by the
      server in an = implementation-dependent manner.  The contents cannot
      be changed by management operations via = the Network Configuration
      = Protocol (NETCONF), RESTCONF, the CLI, etc., unless = specialized,
      dedicated = operations are provided.  The datastore can be read
      using the standard NETCONF/RESTCONF = protocol operations.  The
      = "factory-reset" operation copies the factory default contents = to
      <running> and, if = present, <startup> and/or <candidate>.  The
      contents of these datastores is then = propagated automatically to
      = any other read-only datastores, e.g., <intended> and
      <operational>.



>It is not clear why it is = even needed since <factory-default> contains only system = settings.
[Qin]: I agree <factory-default> = could have system setting. But unspecified for some reasons.
Based on = earlier discussion on factory default, what content is included in = <factory-default> and how to format this content, e.g., YANG = instance file format
Have been ruled out of the scope. See the = diff in v-07
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-factory-d= efault-07.txt

Regardless, = <factory-default> cannot be used for immutable =E2=80=9Csystem" = defined objects, since it=E2=80=99s contents initialize client-editable = datastores.


K.


= --Apple-Mail=_F229ED05-674A-4B97-A88D-B773423E4B1D-- From nobody Tue Aug 17 16:35:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F2E3A12F8 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2021 16:35:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bvls92woD1QQ for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2021 16:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12f.google.com (mail-lf1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76A0B3A12C6 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2021 16:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id k5so565622lfu.4 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2021 16:35:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+ADnZOodgD/xsxQN+l5RFNiYZlRhF0/HkUnTZhWrHFE=; b=i3B1/YzlOIvQ9Fnb1vGQUqYwZHrdQ4oq9Xg5G9LhhAPFwp6O84ec1LNuvhgD5N6LRx akNExsQiXh+G00IBYRcDR6ne+KfFp2qQfhiPru17hn5uvtz//BNUcgjdhTCyixbbPQxe k61WMcQvHkyksnQ93ZyaLK/d4UVckE8Av7KiVYhPek5FnMuPYRRKIQB1nO6XoG5k5V7y sfMWBSh9IqPCGYymjGEWrVWQYlVkZ9pg0mmouNrm3VhT6cL8axN2JBY5xtEAkGDY4Cfm OGpX3b/RysPVj26VZGNVskFWD1v0K311qNh0qqY6R2T1ypvwY6TIsGJuF7ZX8K4cfjCt 9Hmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+ADnZOodgD/xsxQN+l5RFNiYZlRhF0/HkUnTZhWrHFE=; b=CRvjyE3AakKMxxSj0fPZ4fmCstPm1zdyz11+Wh/VOh2f5B8UV/aO3dKWzjsQg394qA ik26xFuYiZEIxmO+MXyIxTlX/OIkOueJUZ5XFIHkFiL2zD6T/WyVu91PpJ+RSskA3FHX 1+GnySe3hYtRD/CaZBffNrfyR6fh/Yq1CjpiH4D4jVmi/veml99F/KoTVKz4zru9SolB +Crhtr6HyCxBOqPNvdpoG6OAM8kxnBb+7Z/dXnlCK/6Yy0fnBQpdqbOrJx9Vmbhsyg17 Z6jQcUjvuWLasreF5O/08ZwG0X6IYwAUJLwFeGSagY+Dxp5qfJBRKowHihawWn9HiKIH ogzw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531PDKwcDYlN4nhtP2QhSTsvMYNei9L87xKGBURajYZdioIPPuYk oLbPLoDafJhtXRooVa0CG0pP27fqMGuvOA15mAqEeg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxJNsZAaXdoANMInwf3ATkXXH97qpG7Uhu5JA38ZgNXS+Py+PicDbW4+487LNHBlPFhSuQkqECIotIsiUT+mv4= X-Received: by 2002:a19:4f1a:: with SMTP id d26mr4009026lfb.377.1629243305593; Tue, 17 Aug 2021 16:35:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0100017b5558ab9d-43cdec2f-59c4-4ff0-97e2-3b90cfca869d-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <0100017b5558ab9d-43cdec2f-59c4-4ff0-97e2-3b90cfca869d-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 16:34:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: Qin Wu , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007ba4ee05c9c9c4c0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] system configuration sync mechanism X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 23:35:25 -0000 --0000000000007ba4ee05c9c9c4c0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I guess I do not agree with the premise of the draft, which is that the client needs to take over control of the system-controlled configuration. I will wait for a draft update and see if that helps understand it better. Andy On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 11:21 AM Kent Watsen wrote: > > >IMO this draft overlaps the factory-default datastore. > >Unfortunately, RFC 8808 does not document NMDA, Appendix A3 details > >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8342#appendix-A.3 > >It does not say if datastore feeds into or > into . > >It is not clear how would interact with other datastores. > [Qin]: As described in Appendix-A.3, two ways to interact with other > datastore are discussed, one is interact implicitly, the other is to use > RPC to trigger application of the datastore's data, in factory default > setting case, rpc will reset the contents of all relevant > datastores to factory default state. > The extreme case of factory default state is no configuration at all for > each datastore. > > > Right. Also, the word =E2=80=9Cflow=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t seem quite = right=E2=80=A6at least in my > mind, it suggests an ongoing relationship, whereas is > really for one-time initializations. > > From https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8808#section-3: > > Management operations: The contents of the datastore is set by the > server in an implementation-dependent manner. The contents cannot > be changed by management operations via the Network Configuration > Protocol (NETCONF), RESTCONF, the CLI, etc., unless specialized, > dedicated operations are provided. The datastore can be read > using the standard NETCONF/RESTCONF protocol operations. The > "factory-reset" operation copies the factory default contents to > and, if present, and/or . The > contents of these datastores is then propagated automatically to > any other read-only datastores, e.g., and > . > > > > >It is not clear why it is even needed since contains > only system settings. > [Qin]: I agree could have system setting. But > unspecified for some reasons. > Based on earlier discussion on factory default, what content is included > in and how to format this content, e.g., YANG instance > file format > Have been ruled out of the scope. See the diff in v-07 > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-07.= txt > > > > Regardless, cannot be used for immutable =E2=80=9Csyste= m" > defined objects, since it=E2=80=99s contents initialize client-editable d= atastores. > > > K. > > > --0000000000007ba4ee05c9c9c4c0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I guess I do not agree w= ith the premise of the draft, which is that the client
needs to t= ake over control of the system-controlled configuration.=C2=A0 I will
=
wait for a draft update and see if that helps understand it better.


Andy

On Tue, Aug 17, 2021= at 11:21 AM Kent Watsen <kent= +ietf@watsen.net> wrote:

<= span lang=3D"EN-US">>IMO this draft overlaps the factory-default datasto= re.
>Unfortunately, RFC 8808 does not document NMDA, Appendix A3 details
>It does not say if &l= t;factory-default> datastore feeds into <running> or into <inte= nded>.
>It is not clear how <system> would interact with other da= tastores.<= /div>
[Qi= n]: As described in Appendix-A.3, two ways to interact with other datastore= are discussed, one is interact implicitly, the other is to use
RPC to trigger application of the datastore's data, in factory d= efault setting case, <factory-reset> rpc will reset the contents of a= ll relevant datastores to factory default state.
=
The ex= treme case of factory default state is no configuration at all for each dat= astore.

Right.=C2=A0 Also, the word =E2=80=9Cflow=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t = seem quite right=E2=80=A6at least in my mind, it suggests an ongoing relati= onship, whereas <factory-default> is really for one-time initializati= ons.


=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Management operations: =C2=A0The contents of the datastore is set by = the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 server in an implementation-dependent ma= nner.=C2=A0 The contents cannot
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be changed b= y management operations via the Network Configuration
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Protocol (NETCONF), RESTCONF, the CLI, etc., unless specialized,=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 dedicated operations are provided.=C2=A0 Th= e datastore can be read
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 using the standard N= ETCONF/RESTCONF protocol operations.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 "factory-reset" operation copies the factory default contents= to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <running> and, if present, <sta= rtup> and/or <candidate>.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= contents of these datastores is then propagated automatically to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 any other read-only datastores, e.g., <intended>= ; and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <operational>.



<= /span>
>It is not cl= ear why it is even needed since <factory-default> contains only syste= m settings.
[Qin]: I agree <factory-defaul= t> could have system setting. But unspecified for some reasons.
Based on earlier discussion on factory default, what content is i= ncluded in <factory-default> and how to format this content, e.g., YA= NG instance file format
Have been ruled out of the scope.= See the diff in v-07
<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">https://www.ietf.o= rg/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-07.txt
=


Reg= ardless, <factory-default> cannot be used for immutable =E2=80=9Csyst= em" defined objects, since it=E2=80=99s contents initialize client-edi= table datastores.


K.


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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ce198923-ddeb-49e6-4ac5-08d9662ff718 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Aug 2021 12:17:24.3929 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 3/GcC7lriyGkIqqkaT8yfTg5dIR8o2H8V+879KR+dgYrS10frDLvfsmd9Tz/O+PxGghDiqu8kCiwfSJ/tDgySp2X9KaDpt6z6xvYA/DLxJw= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8140 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 12:17:38 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01D79829.9719F1E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_006F_01D79829.9719F1E0" ------=_NextPart_001_006F_01D79829.9719F1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Rob, I think this won=E2=80=99t fly.=20 In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: =E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because = they are not part of the partial data set. In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing = because - They are not part of the partial data-set - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. =20 This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. Regards Balazs =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) =20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; Andy Bierman = ; NetMod WG Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, =20 Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the = description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than = SHOULDs. =20 Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are = somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the = default values. =20 With these definitions, I think that we could define the = =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I = think that this effectively what the meaning would be anyway. =20 =20 In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } =20 Proposed: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "The instance data set includes all data nodes, including those that contain the schema = default.=E2=80=9D; } enum trim { value 2; description "The instance data set excludes all data nodes that contain the schema default."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "The instance data set may include some data nodes that match the schema default and may exclude some data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; } } description "This leaf provides an indication of how default data is presented within an instance data set, modelled on RFC 6243. =20 Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the context of what the instance data set represents. =20 E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the instance data set represents operational data from the=20 operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then include-defaults aligns to the definition of that datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; =20 Would text along these lines work? =20 Thanks, Rob =20 =20 From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >=20 Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; Andy Bierman > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hello Rob, Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. =20 Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the use-cases: = reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other = use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational = datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the = includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case = (ii) will not. Regards Balazs =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 To: Andy Bierman >; = Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Andy, Balazs, =20 So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are = in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: =20 Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then this implies that the node is not used by the device. =20 It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data = cannot differentiate between: (i) This value is not present because it matches the = default value specified in the YANG module, and (ii) This value is not present because the server has = failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would = have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a = bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). =20 So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not = necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the = instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this = data. =20 I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another = way of articulating this would be: =20 leaf in-use-values { type boolean; default false; description =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the instance data for a given data node implies that the node is not used rather than implicitly taking the default value specified by any corresponding =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D; } =20 With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the = =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the = draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely = optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D. =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > Cc: NetMod WG >; Bal=C3=A1zs = Lengyel > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: Andy, =20 Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be = sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default = values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. =20 =20 =20 The solution is simple. Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. =20 If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used = to include defaults. If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or = defaults were not added. =20 The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever been able to convince the others that theirs is right. =20 =20 Andy =20 E.g., something along these lines: =20 leaf exclude-defaults { type boolean; default true; description =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. =20 When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content data. =20 When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D } =20 Would this satisfy your concern? =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: netmod > = On Behalf Of Andy Bierman Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16 To: NetMod WG > Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi, =20 The module has this object: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } default trim; =20 The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but = this leaf is too server-centric to ignore. =20 Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF = server. This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. =20 IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called = "unknown". =20 =20 Andy =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_006F_01D79829.9719F1E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Rob,

I think this won=E2=80=99t fly.

In sections 1.2 and 2 we = state:

=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data =
sets.=E2=80=9D
Which is =
important for many use-cases. =C2=A0This means you cannot say that a =
default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because =
they are not part of the partial data =
set.
In a way it =
is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing =
because
-        =
They are not =
part of the partial data-set
-        =
They are =
omitted because they have the default value and one of the trim or =
explicit options is used
If this =
becomes important the report-all =
options =
shall be used.
 
This is the =
reason I used the SHOULD word.
Regards =
Balazs

 

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., = h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy Bierman = <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

 

Sorry for the delayed = response.  I would still like to strength the description of the = defaults.  E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than = SHOULDs.

 

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative = descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically = focussed only on the default values.

 

With these definitions, I think = that we could define the =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default = value to be =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not = included, then I think that this effectively what the meaning would be = anyway.

 

 

In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as = follows:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "All data nodes SHOULD be included = independent of

         &= nbsp;       any default = values.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD

         &= nbsp;       NOT be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD NOT be

         &= nbsp;       included. However, if the = actual value was set by

         &= nbsp;       a NETCONF client or other = management application

         &= nbsp;       by the way of an explicit = management operation the

         &= nbsp;       data node SHOULD be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

     =  

Proposed:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set includes all = data nodes,

         &= nbsp;      including those that contain the = schema default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set excludes all = data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that contain the schema = default.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set may include = some data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that match the schema default and = may exclude some

         &= nbsp;      data nodes that match the schema = default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

         = description

         &= nbsp; "This leaf provides an indication of how default = data

         &= nbsp;  is presented within an instance data set, modelled = on

         &= nbsp;  RFC 6243.

 

         &= nbsp;  Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on = the

         &= nbsp;  context of what the instance data set = represents.

 

         &= nbsp;  E.g., if the instance data set represents = configuration,

         &= nbsp;  Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of = the

         &= nbsp;  default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.  If = the

         &= nbsp;  instance data set represents operational data from the =

         &= nbsp;  operational state datastore [RFC 8342], = then

         &= nbsp;  include-defaults aligns to the definition of = that

         &= nbsp;  datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

 

Would text along these lines = work?

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

 

From: = Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Andy = Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hello Rob,

Removing the = =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment.

 

Your in-use-values is very specific = to one of the use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It is = not useful for the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting = operational datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating = the includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the = value case (ii) will not.

Regards Balazs

 

From: = Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> =
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38
To: Andy = Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; = Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hi Andy, = Balazs,

 

So, the reason that I = want a flag to indicate whether default values are in use is because of = this definition of operational in RFC 8342:

 

   Requests to retrieve nodes from = <operational> always return the value

   in use if the node exists, regardless of = any default value specified

   in the YANG module.  If no value is = returned for a given node, then

   this implies that the node is not used by = the device.

 

It was written this way = because otherwise a consumer of operational data cannot differentiate = between:

(i)           = ;    This value is not present because it matches the default = value specified in the YANG module, and

(ii)           = ;   This = value is not present because the server has failed to return it for some = reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have provided this value is = down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is not = implemented and is a missing deviation).

 

So, I think that in some = cases, the absence of a data node does not necessarily mean that the = default value is in effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to = be able to contain and correctly report this = data.

 

I think that this = behaviour could be captured by a single leaf.  Another way of = articulating this would be:

 

leaf in-use-values = {

  type = boolean;

  default = false;

  = description

    = =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in = the

     = instance data for a given data node implies that = the

    n= ode is not used rather than implicitly taking = the

     = default value specified by any corresponding

    =E2= =80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

 

With this, I=E2=80=99m = not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf = currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that = leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default = =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: = Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> =
Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc:= NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs = Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file = include-defaults leaf

 

 

Andy,

 

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking = that a boolean flag might be sufficient.  My point being that = automatically filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the = right thing to do.

 

 

 

The solution is = simple.

Get rid of the = inappropriate "default trim" = statement.

 

If the leaf is present = then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to include = defaults.

If not then the = information is either not known, not applicable, or defaults were not = added.

 

The "default" = statement is a bug because there is no default = basic-mode.

All of the basic-modes = are in use in deployments and no camp has = ever

been able to convince = the others that theirs is right.

 

 

Andy

 

E.g., something along these = lines:

 

leaf exclude-defaults = {

  type boolean;

  default true;

  description

    =E2=80=9CCan be used to = reduce the size of the content data file.

 

      When unset or = set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and

      where the = actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content

    =   data.

 

      When set to = false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and

      may appear in = the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

 

Would this satisfy your = concern?

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Andy Bierman
Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod = WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi,

 

The module has this = object:

 

    leaf includes-defaults =
{
       type =
enumeration {
         =
enum report-all {
        &nb=
sp;  value 1;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "All data nodes SHOULD be included =
independent of
        &nb=
sp;      any default values.";
         =
}
         =
enum trim {
        &nb=
sp;  value 2;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD
        &nb=
sp;      NOT be included.";
         =
}
         =
enum explicit {
        &nb=
sp;  value 3;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD NOT be
        &nb=
sp;      included. However, if the actual value =
was set by
        &nb=
sp;      a NETCONF client or other management =
application
        &nb=
sp;      by the way of an explicit management =
operation the
        &nb=
sp;      data node SHOULD be =
included.";
         =
}
       }
       default =
trim;
 

The draft is extremely server-centric, like = most IETF standards, but this

leaf is too server-centric to = ignore.

 

Consider the possibility that the source of = the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

This data may not be known so the default of = "trim" may not be correct.

 

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that = knows the schema will also

know the YANG defaults.  The solution is = incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default = is not enough.

The  "report-all-tagged" mode = must be used to identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least = add an enum called = "unknown".

 

 

Andy

 

 

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Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id g13so39208136lfj.12 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2021 09:58:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aSYggRQnTUQhVnKmCr1QlFUt6OzUOIjrVNo4tsq0xKM=; b=qWG4sZ3b2oHHYRgjOXbwJLyvsMyqLdxYXZLyuFn+FP9EHzyUAo1WABsS+j1aRaMLzL 6xs5tCrq0hBUHc3Dvn+lLw4ZksSzzHbGEPqwZq+hpoukpxhqDZQiU3gg+37FBKJvq8jm tcqdcRy7eR7daF3h9hbneJ3tCvjM/JdcWDr6aDu5twl98Z/amtQSQ+wMqUGgR3sHi1hg m4ef82laRwn0yAGHA9ZRCR5a3AJx3i3QfPnBGrO77IJHibTau0GsPWH0hVWN/6gkg5EF 2MKqiZNAweiUQ1vOYDdQP9sbgPqKa1b028m6ZcVsxJOBo34zOtu86uNllrd11qEzmuPh lPdQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aSYggRQnTUQhVnKmCr1QlFUt6OzUOIjrVNo4tsq0xKM=; b=AiYyBOe/6z6Awa5GK5eDufbGYR3ophRGLwF90ROLhiojIiOdQ74icaXvkm5LV4ueco 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netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 16:58:11 -0000 --00000000000075827b05ca3ceb9d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > Hello Rob, > > I think this won=E2=80=99t fly. > > In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: > > *=E2=80=9C**Instance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D* > > Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because th= ey are not part of the partial data set. > > In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing beca= use > > - They are not part of the partial data-set > > - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used > > If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. > > > > I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way to represent "no defaults added". Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a leaf reporting the YANG default could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify defaults in this case. Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults ev= er reported. This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default and always returns every node (if with-defaults used or not). > This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. > > Regards Balazs > > Andy > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, > > > > Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the > description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOUL= Ds. > > > > Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are > somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the default > values. > > > > With these definitions, I think that we could define the > =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cexplicit= =E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not > included, then I think that this effectively what the meaning would be > anyway. > > > > > > In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > > > Proposed: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "The instance data set includes all data nodes, > > including those that contain the schema default.=E2=80=9D= ; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "The instance data set excludes all data nodes > > that contain the schema default."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "The instance data set may include some data nodes > > that match the schema default and may exclude some > > data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; > > } > > } > > description > > "This leaf provides an indication of how default data > > is presented within an instance data set, modelled on > > RFC 6243. > > > > Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the > > context of what the instance data set represents. > > > > E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, > > Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the > > default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the > > instance data set represents operational data from the > > operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then > > include-defaults aligns to the definition of that > > datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; > > > > Would text along these lines work? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Sent:* 28 July 2021 23:08 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hello Rob, > > Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. > > > > Your *in-use-values* is very specific to one of the use-cases: > reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other > use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational datastore=E2=80= =9D use-case could > be handled by indicating the *includes-defaults=3Dreport-all*. Case (i) > would contain the value case (ii) will not. > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 > *To:* Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Andy, Balazs, > > > > So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are > in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: > > > > Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value > > in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified > > in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then > > this implies that the node is not used by the device. > > > > It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data > cannot differentiate between: > > (i) This value is not present because it matches the > default value specified in the YANG module, and > > (ii) This value is not present because the server has failed > to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have > provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or > perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). > > > > So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not > necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the > instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this da= ta. > > > > I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another > way of articulating this would be: > > > > leaf in-use-values { > > type boolean; > > default false; > > description > > =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the > > instance data for a given data node implies that the > > node is not used rather than implicitly taking the > > default value specified by any corresponding > > =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2= =80=9D; > > } > > > > With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-def= ault=E2=80=9D leaf > currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that > leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim= =E2=80=9D. > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 10 July 2021 17:41 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Cc:* NetMod WG ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: > > Andy, > > > > Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be > sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default valu= es > isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. > > > > > > > > The solution is simple. > > Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. > > > > If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to > include defaults. > > If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or > defaults were not added. > > > > The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. > > All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever > > been able to convince the others that theirs is right. > > > > > > Andy > > > > E.g., something along these lines: > > > > leaf exclude-defaults { > > type boolean; > > default true; > > description > > =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. > > > > When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined a= nd > > where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the > content > > data. > > > > When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, > and > > may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D > > } > > > > Would this satisfy your concern? > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16 > *To:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > The module has this object: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > default trim; > > > > The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this > > leaf is too server-centric to ignore. > > > > Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF > server. > > This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. > > > > IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also > > know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because > > the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. > > The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. > > IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown= ". > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > --00000000000075827b05ca3ceb9d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.= lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Rob,

I think this won=E2= =80=99t fly.

In sections 1.2 and 2= we state:

=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial da=
ta sets.=E2=80=9D
Which is important for many use-cas=
es.=C2=A0 This means you cannot say that a default value will or must be in=
cluded, as they might be omitted because they are not part of the partial d=
ata set.
In a way it is difficult to separate between lea=
ves that are missing because
-=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are not part of the=
 partial data-set
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are omitted because they have =
the default value and one of the trim or explicit options is used=

If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used.
=C2=A0


=
I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no w= ay to
represent "no defaults added".

Note that "report-all" is not useful=C2=A0if basic-mode=3D= explicit, since a leaf reporting the YANG default
could be set by= the client.=C2=A0 Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify defaults in= this case.

Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-= all then there will be no defaults ever reported.
This mode means= the server does not consider any node to be a default and always returns
every node (if with-defaults used or not).
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
This is the reason I used the SHOULD word.
Regards Balazs


Andy
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

=C2=A0

From: Rob W= ilton (rwilton) <= rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf= =C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>= ;; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod= ] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

=C2=A0

Sorry for the delayed response.=C2=A0 I woul= d still like to strength the description of the defaults.=C2=A0 E.g., RFC 6= 243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOULDs.

=C2=A0

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternat= ive descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically foc= ussed only on the default values.

=C2=A0

With these definitions, I think that we could de= fine the =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cex= plicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I think that this = effectively what the meaning would be anyway.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In particular, I would propose chang= ing the descriptions as follows:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-= defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &q= uot;All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any defa= ult values.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "= ;Data nodes that have a default defined and where

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual = value is the default value SHOULD

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<= /p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that h= ave a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the defau= lt value SHOULD NOT be

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value= was set by

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management application

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit management operation the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 data node SHOULD be included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0

Proposed:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The instanc= e data set includes all data nodes,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 including those that contain the= schema default.=E2=80=9D;

<= span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New&q= uot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 }

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= "The instance data set excludes all data nodes

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that contain t= he schema default.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 }

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 "The instance data set may include some data nodes

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that mat= ch the schema default and may exclude some

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data nodes that match t= he schema default.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 }

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 "This leaf provides an indication of how default data=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is presented within an ins= tance data set, modelled on

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC 6243.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 context of what the instance data s= et represents.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 E.g.= , if the instance data set represents configuration,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then include-defaults aligns to the me= aning of the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 defa= ult-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.=C2=A0 If the

=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data set represents operational = data from the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 include-defaults aligns to the definition of= that

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 datastore i= n RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0

Would text along these lines work?

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,

=

Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@er= icsson.com>
Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wi= lton (rwilton) <r= wilton@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults l= eaf

=C2=A0

Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;= =E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

=C2=A0

Your in-use-values is very spe= cific to one of the use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It i= s not useful for the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting oper= ational datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the i= ncludes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case (i= i) will not.

Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

From= : Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27= ., kedd 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &= lt;balazs.= lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

<= /div>

=C2=A0<= u>

Hi Andy, Balazs,

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">So, t= he reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are in use = is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requests to retrieve nodes from &l= t;operational> always return the value

=C2=A0=C2=A0 i= n use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the YANG module.=C2=A0 If no value is returned f= or a given node, then

=C2=A0=C2=A0 this implies that the= node is not used by the device.

=C2=A0

It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational da= ta cannot differentiate between:

(i)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This value= is not present because it matches the default value specified in the YANG = module, and

(ii)=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <= /span>This value is not present because = the server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemo= n that would have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps = it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation).<= u>

<= span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0

So, I think that in some cas= es, the absence of a data node does not necessarily mean that the default v= alue is in effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to co= ntain and correctly report this data.

=C2=A0<= /u>

I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf.= =C2=A0 Another way of articulating this would be:

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0

leaf in= -use-values {

=C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default false;

=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9COnly i= f set to true, the absence of a value in the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data = for a given data node implies that the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0node is not used rath= er than implicitly taking the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default value specified by an= y corresponding

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specifie= d in the YANG schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

=C2=A0

Wit= h this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default= =E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would= think that leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2= =80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Regar= ds,
Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com= >
Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton)= <rwilton@cisco.c= om>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@er= icsson.com>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file inclu= de-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri,= Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:=

Andy,

=C2=A0

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean fl= ag might be sufficient.=C2=A0 My point being that automatically filtering o= ut default values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.=

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

The solut= ion is simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate = "default trim" statement.

= =C2=A0

If the leaf is present then it identifies th= e basic-mode that was used to include defaults.

If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or def= aults were not added.

=C2=A0

The "default" statement is a bug because there is= no default basic-mode.

All of the basic-mod= es are in use in deployments and no camp has ever

<= /div>

been able to convince the others that theirs is right.<= /span>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

Andy

=C2=A0<= /span>

E.g., something along these lines:

=C2=A0

leaf exclude-defaults {

=C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default true;

=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 W= hen unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined and=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value is the = default value are excluded from the content

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0data.

=C2=A0=

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When set to false, data nodes with default v= alue are not filtered, and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

=C2=A0

Would this satisfy your concern?<= /u>

=C2=A0

Regards,
Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From= : netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
S= ent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf=

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

The module has this = object:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all=
 {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.&=
quot;;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum tri=
m {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default defined and where<=
span lang=3D"EN-GB">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value =
is the default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {<=
/u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 value 3;
= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that h=
ave a default defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. H=
owever, if the actual value was set by
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management applicatio=
n
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the w=
ay of an explicit management operation the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default trim;<=
/span>
=
=C2=A0

The draft is extre= mely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this

leaf is too server-centric to ignore.

<= /div>

=C2=A0

Consider the possibility that t= he source of the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be= correct.

=C2=A0

<= /div>

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will al= so

know the YANG defaults.=C2=A0 The solutio= n is incomplete anyway because

the presence= of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.

<= /div>

The=C2=A0 "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify= defaults.

IMO this leaf should be removed,= but at least add an enum called "unknown".<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

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Tue, 24 Aug 2021 08:41:44 +0000 From: =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBMZW5neWVs?= To: Andy Bierman CC: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , NetMod WG Thread-Topic: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf Thread-Index: AQHXdB0ScDY6rhEwiUCIGrL2qSijE6s6kiOAgAHaXQCAGqYDAIAB/JVwgCgblQCAAByt4IAAUG2AgAED4CA= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 08:41:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yumaworks.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; yumaworks.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 57f93df8-540d-401f-8ee0-08d966db00ad x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM8PR07MB8074: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B9_01D798D4.A09F4480" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 57f93df8-540d-401f-8ee0-08d966db00ad X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Aug 2021 08:41:44.4064 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: blhtUpfatE4KmPiWDGKm3XfcvSOGaOHzki5NJN0Kj/xcCsljQnhE6lpT660ADZPLAWPKoKXmzYmCCfWYNRz4tqKg1hoBpM1QCYvwqjXTY9E= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8074 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 08:42:02 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_00B9_01D798D4.A09F4480 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00BA_01D798D4.A09F4480" ------=_NextPart_001_00BA_01D798D4.A09F4480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Andy, In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you = proposed. =20 I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as = instance-file-format does not use the concept of = =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single leaf to indicate what is = the situation with defaults in the specific instance-data-set. As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to = specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the = handling used for this specific instance data set. =20 Regards Balazs =20 From: Andy Bierman =20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG = Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello Rob, I think this won=E2=80=99t fly.=20 In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: =E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because = they are not part of the partial data set. In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing = because - They are not part of the partial data-set - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. =20 =20 =20 I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to represent "no defaults added". =20 Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a = leaf reporting the YANG default could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly = identify defaults in this case. =20 Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults = ever reported. This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default = and always returns every node (if with-defaults used or not). =20 This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. Regards Balazs =20 Andy =20 =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >; Andy Bierman >; NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, =20 Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the = description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than = SHOULDs. =20 Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are = somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the = default values. =20 With these definitions, I think that we could define the = =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I = think that this effectively what the meaning would be anyway. =20 =20 In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } =20 Proposed: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "The instance data set includes all data nodes, including those that contain the schema = default.=E2=80=9D; } enum trim { value 2; description "The instance data set excludes all data nodes that contain the schema default."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "The instance data set may include some data nodes that match the schema default and may exclude some data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; } } description "This leaf provides an indication of how default data is presented within an instance data set, modelled on RFC 6243. =20 Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the context of what the instance data set represents. =20 E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the instance data set represents operational data from the=20 operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then include-defaults aligns to the definition of that datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; =20 Would text along these lines work? =20 Thanks, Rob =20 =20 From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >=20 Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; Andy Bierman > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hello Rob, Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. =20 Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the use-cases: = reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other = use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational = datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the = includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case = (ii) will not. Regards Balazs =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 To: Andy Bierman >; = Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Andy, Balazs, =20 So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are = in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: =20 Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then this implies that the node is not used by the device. =20 It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data = cannot differentiate between: (i) This value is not present because it matches the = default value specified in the YANG module, and (ii) This value is not present because the server has = failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would = have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a = bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). =20 So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not = necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the = instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this = data. =20 I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another = way of articulating this would be: =20 leaf in-use-values { type boolean; default false; description =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the instance data for a given data node implies that the node is not used rather than implicitly taking the default value specified by any corresponding =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D; } =20 With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the = =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the = draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely = optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D. =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > Cc: NetMod WG >; Bal=C3=A1zs = Lengyel > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: Andy, =20 Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be = sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default = values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. =20 =20 =20 The solution is simple. Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. =20 If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used = to include defaults. If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or = defaults were not added. =20 The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever been able to convince the others that theirs is right. =20 =20 Andy =20 E.g., something along these lines: =20 leaf exclude-defaults { type boolean; default true; description =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. =20 When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content data. =20 When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D } =20 Would this satisfy your concern? =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: netmod > = On Behalf Of Andy Bierman Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16 To: NetMod WG > Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi, =20 The module has this object: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } default trim; =20 The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but = this leaf is too server-centric to ignore. =20 Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF = server. This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. =20 IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called = "unknown". =20 =20 Andy =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_00BA_01D798D4.A09F4480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Andy,

In the -17 I removed the default value for = includes-defaults as you proposed.

 

I am not = sure I understand the rest of the comments as instance-file-format does = not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single = leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specific = instance-data-set.

As this is not a = live server request/reply situation we do not want to specify a basic = and additional modes, we just want to specify the handling used for this = specific instance data set.

 

Regards = Balazs

 

From: Andy Bierman = <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., = h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

 

 

On = Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

 <= /o:p>

From:= Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy Bierman = <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 <= /o:p>

Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

 

Sorry for the delayed response.  I would still like to = strength the description of the defaults.  E.g., RFC 6243 uses = MUSTs rather than SHOULDs.

 

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative = descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically = focussed only on the default values.

 

With these definitions, I think that we could define the = =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I = think that this effectively what the meaning would be = anyway.

 

 

In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as = follows:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "All data nodes SHOULD be included = independent of

         &= nbsp;       any default = values.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD

         &= nbsp;       NOT be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD NOT be

         &= nbsp;       included. However, if the = actual value was set by

         &= nbsp;       a NETCONF client or other = management application

         &= nbsp;       by the way of an explicit = management operation the

         &= nbsp;       data node SHOULD be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

     =  

Proposed:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set includes all = data nodes,

         &= nbsp;      including those that contain the = schema default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set excludes all = data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that contain the schema = default.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set may include = some data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that match the schema default and = may exclude some

         &= nbsp;      data nodes that match the schema = default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

         = description

         &= nbsp; "This leaf provides an indication of how default = data

         &= nbsp;  is presented within an instance data set, modelled = on

         &= nbsp;  RFC 6243.

 

         &= nbsp;  Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on = the

         &= nbsp;  context of what the instance data set = represents.

 

         &= nbsp;  E.g., if the instance data set represents = configuration,

         &= nbsp;  Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of = the

         &= nbsp;  default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.  If = the

         &= nbsp;  instance data set represents operational data from the =

         &= nbsp;  operational state datastore [RFC 8342], = then

         &= nbsp;  include-defaults aligns to the definition of = that

         &= nbsp;  datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

 

Would text along these lines work?

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

 

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Sent: = 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address = Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

 

Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the = use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for = the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational = datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the = includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value = case (ii) will not.

Regards Balazs

 

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. = j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: = NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hi Andy, Balazs,

 

So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate = whether default values are in use is because of this definition of = operational in RFC 8342:

 

   Requests to retrieve nodes from = <operational> always return the value

   in use if the node exists, regardless of = any default value specified

   in the YANG module.  If no value is = returned for a given node, then

   this implies that the node is not used by = the device.

 

It was written this way because otherwise a = consumer of operational data cannot differentiate = between:

(i)          = ;     This value is not = present because it matches the default value specified in the YANG = module, and

(ii)          = ;    This value is not present = because the server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., = perhaps the daemon that would have provided this value is down or not = available, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and = is a missing deviation).

 

So, I think that in some cases, the absence of = a data node does not necessarily mean that the default value is in = effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to contain = and correctly report this data.

 

I think that this behaviour could be captured = by a single leaf.  Another way of articulating this would = be:

 

leaf in-use-values = {

  type = boolean;

  default = false;

  = description

    = =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in = the

     = instance data for a given data node implies that = the

    n= ode is not used rather than implicitly taking = the

     = default value specified by any corresponding

    =E2= =80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

 

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we = need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in = the draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely = optional, i.e., without the default = =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 10 July = 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Subject: = Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

 

 

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> = wrote:

Andy,

 

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking = that a boolean flag might be sufficient.  My point being that = automatically filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the = right thing to do.

 

 

 

The solution is = simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate "default = trim" statement.

 

If the leaf is present then it identifies the = basic-mode that was used to include = defaults.

If not then the information is either not = known, not applicable, or defaults were not = added.

 

The "default" statement is a bug = because there is no default = basic-mode.

All of the basic-modes are in use in = deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs = is right.

 

 

Andy

 

E.g., something along these = lines:

 

leaf exclude-defaults = {

  type boolean;

  default true;

  description

    =E2=80=9CCan be used to = reduce the size of the content data file.

 

      When unset or = set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and

      where the = actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content

    =   data.

 

      When set to = false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and

      may appear in = the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

 

Would this satisfy your = concern?

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Andy Bierman
Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod = WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi,

 

The module has this = object:

 

    leaf includes-defaults =
{
       =
type enumeration {
         =
enum report-all {
        &nb=
sp;  value 1;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "All data nodes SHOULD be included =
independent of
        &nb=
sp;      any default =
values.";
         =
}
         =
enum trim {
        &nb=
sp;  value 2;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD
        &nb=
sp;      NOT be =
included.";
         =
}
         =
enum explicit {
        &nb=
sp;  value 3;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD NOT be
        &nb=
sp;      included. However, if the actual value =
was set by
        &nb=
sp;      a NETCONF client or other management =
application
        &nb=
sp;      by the way of an explicit management =
operation the
        &nb=
sp;      data node SHOULD be =
included.";
         =
}
       =
}
       =
default trim;
 

The draft is extremely server-centric, like = most IETF standards, but this

leaf is too server-centric to = ignore.

 

Consider the possibility that the source of = the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

This data may not be known so the default of = "trim" may not be correct.

 

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that = knows the schema will also

know the YANG defaults.  The solution is = incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default = is not enough.

The  "report-all-tagged" mode = must be used to identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least = add an enum called = "unknown".

 

 

Andy

 

 

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netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 11:35:13 -0000 --000000000000fccc7a05ca4c8571 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > Hello Andy, > > In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you > proposed. > > > > I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as > instance-file-format does not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2= =80=9D. It has a > single leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specif= ic > instance-data-set. > > As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to > specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handlin= g > used for this specific instance data set. > The draft as written does not actually provide the same utility as . (Without the "default" attribute the "explicit" mode is not actually supported.) The "with-defaults" mechanism works exactly the same no matter what the XML representation is used for. The mode used to write the data will correspond to the basic-mode with the same name. > > Regards Balazs > Andy > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Rob, > > I think this won=E2=80=99t fly. > > In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: > > *=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D* > > Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because th= ey are not part of the partial data set. > > In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing beca= use > > - They are not part of the partial data-set > > - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used > > If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. > > > > > > > > I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to > > represent "no defaults added". > > > > Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a le= af > reporting the YANG default > > could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify > defaults in this case. > > > > Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults > ever reported. > > This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default and > always returns > > every node (if with-defaults used or not). > > > > This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. > > Regards Balazs > > > > Andy > > > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, > > > > Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the > description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOUL= Ds. > > > > Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are > somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the default > values. > > > > With these definitions, I think that we could define the > =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cexplicit= =E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not > included, then I think that this effectively what the meaning would be > anyway. > > > > > > In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > > > Proposed: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "The instance data set includes all data nodes, > > including those that contain the schema default.=E2=80=9D= ; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "The instance data set excludes all data nodes > > that contain the schema default."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "The instance data set may include some data nodes > > that match the schema default and may exclude some > > data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; > > } > > } > > description > > "This leaf provides an indication of how default data > > is presented within an instance data set, modelled on > > RFC 6243. > > > > Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the > > context of what the instance data set represents. > > > > E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, > > Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the > > default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the > > instance data set represents operational data from the > > operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then > > include-defaults aligns to the definition of that > > datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; > > > > Would text along these lines work? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Sent:* 28 July 2021 23:08 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hello Rob, > > Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. > > > > Your *in-use-values* is very specific to one of the use-cases: > reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other > use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational datastore=E2=80= =9D use-case could > be handled by indicating the *includes-defaults=3Dreport-all*. Case (i) > would contain the value case (ii) will not. > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 > *To:* Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Andy, Balazs, > > > > So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are > in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: > > > > Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value > > in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified > > in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then > > this implies that the node is not used by the device. > > > > It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data > cannot differentiate between: > > (i) This value is not present because it matches the > default value specified in the YANG module, and > > (ii) This value is not present because the server has failed > to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have > provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or > perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). > > > > So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not > necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the > instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this da= ta. > > > > I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another > way of articulating this would be: > > > > leaf in-use-values { > > type boolean; > > default false; > > description > > =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the > > instance data for a given data node implies that the > > node is not used rather than implicitly taking the > > default value specified by any corresponding > > =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2= =80=9D; > > } > > > > With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-def= ault=E2=80=9D leaf > currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that > leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim= =E2=80=9D. > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 10 July 2021 17:41 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Cc:* NetMod WG ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: > > Andy, > > > > Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be > sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default valu= es > isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. > > > > > > > > The solution is simple. > > Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. > > > > If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to > include defaults. > > If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or > defaults were not added. > > > > The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. > > All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever > > been able to convince the others that theirs is right. > > > > > > Andy > > > > E.g., something along these lines: > > > > leaf exclude-defaults { > > type boolean; > > default true; > > description > > =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. > > > > When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined a= nd > > where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the > content > > data. > > > > When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, > and > > may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D > > } > > > > Would this satisfy your concern? > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16 > *To:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > The module has this object: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > default trim; > > > > The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this > > leaf is too server-centric to ignore. > > > > Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF > server. > > This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. > > > > IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also > > know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because > > the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. > > The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. > > IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown= ". > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > --000000000000fccc7a05ca4c8571 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.= lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy,

In the -17 I remov= ed the default value for includes-defaults as you proposed.

=C2=A0

I a= m not sure I understand the rest of the comments as instance-file-format do= es not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single lea= f to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specific instance-= data-set.

As this is not a live ser= ver request/reply situation we do not want to specify a basic and additiona= l modes, we just want to specify the handling used for this specific instan= ce data set.



The draft as written does not actually provide the same utility as <wit= h-defaults>.
(Without the "default" attribute the &q= uot;explicit" mode is not actually supported.)

The "with-defaults" mechanism works exactly the same no matter = what
the XML representation is used for.=C2=A0 The mode used to w= rite the data will
correspond to the basic-mode with the same nam= e.


=C2=A0

Regards Balazs


A= ndy
=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierma= n <andy@yumawork= s.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [n= etmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /p>

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3= =A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

<= blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;bo= rder-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.= 8pt;margin-right:0cm">

Hello Rob,=

I think this won=E2=80=99t fly.

In sections 1.2 and 2 we state:<= /p>

=
=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D=

Which is important for many use-cases.=C2=A0 This means you=
 cannot say that a default value will or must be included, as they might be=
 omitted because they are not part of the partial data set.
In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing bec=
ause
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are not part of the partial data-set
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are omitted because they have the default value and one of the =
trim or explicit options is used
If this becomes importan=
t the report-all=
 optio=
ns shall be used.
=C2=A0
=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or the= re is no way to

represen= t "no defaults added".

=C2=A0

Note tha= t "report-all" is not useful=C2=A0if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since= a leaf reporting the YANG default

could be set by the client.=C2=A0 Only report-all-tagged will cl= early identify defaults in this case.

=C2=A0

Al= so note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults ever= reported.

This mode mea= ns the server does not consider any node to be a default and always returns=

every node (if with-def= aults used or not).

=C2= =A0

This is the reason I us=
ed the SHOULD word.
Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

<= div>

=C2=A0

From: R= ob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9= tf=C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com&= gt;; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netm= od] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

=C2=A0

Sorry for the delayed response.=C2=A0 I wo= uld still like to strength the description of the defaults.=C2=A0 E.g., RFC= 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOULDs.

=C2=A0

Hence, I have generated some proposed altern= ative descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically f= ocussed only on the default values.

=C2=A0

With these definitions, I think that we could = define the =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9C= explicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I think that thi= s effectively what the meaning would be anyway.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In particular, I would propose cha= nging the descriptions as follows:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf include= s-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &q= uot;All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any defa= ult values.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "= ;Data nodes that have a default defined and where

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual = value is the default value SHOULD

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<= /p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that h= ave a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the defau= lt value SHOULD NOT be

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value= was set by

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management application

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit management operation the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 data node SHOULD be included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0

Proposed:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The instanc= e data set includes all data nodes,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 including those that contain the= schema default.=E2=80=9D;

<= span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New&q= uot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 }

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= "The instance data set excludes all data nodes

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that contain t= he schema default.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 }

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 "The instance data set may include some data nodes

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that mat= ch the schema default and may exclude some

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data nodes that match t= he schema default.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 }

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 "This leaf provides an indication of how default data=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is presented within an ins= tance data set, modelled on

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC 6243.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 context of what the instance data s= et represents.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 E.g.= , if the instance data set represents configuration,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then include-defaults aligns to the me= aning of the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 defa= ult-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.=C2=A0 If the

=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data set represents operational = data from the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 include-defaults aligns to the definition of= that

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 datastore i= n RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0

Would text along these lines work?

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,

=

Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@er= icsson.com>
Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wi= lton (rwilton) <r= wilton@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults l= eaf

=C2=A0

Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;= =E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

=C2=A0

Your in-use-values is very spe= cific to one of the use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It i= s not useful for the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting oper= ational datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the i= ncludes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case (i= i) will not.

Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

From= : Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27= ., kedd 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &= lt;balazs.= lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

<= /div>

=C2=A0<= u>

Hi Andy, Balazs,

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">So, t= he reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are in use = is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342:<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requests to retrieve nodes from &l= t;operational> always return the value

=C2=A0=C2=A0 i= n use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the YANG module.=C2=A0 If no value is returned f= or a given node, then

=C2=A0=C2=A0 this implies that the= node is not used by the device.

=C2=A0

It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational da= ta cannot differentiate between:

(i)=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= This value is not present because it matches t= he default value specified in the YANG module, and

=

(ii)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 This value is not present because = the server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemo= n that would have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps = it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation).<= /span>

<= span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0

So, I think that in some cas= es, the absence of a data node does not necessarily mean that the default v= alue is in effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to co= ntain and correctly report this data.

=C2=A0<= /u>

I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf.= =C2=A0 Another way of articulating this would be:

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2= =A0

leaf = in-use-values {

=C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default false;

=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9COnl= y if set to true, the absence of a value in the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance = data for a given data node implies that the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0node is not used= rather than implicitly taking the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default value specified = by any corresponding

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement s= pecified in the YANG schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

=C2=A0=

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-d= efault=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I= would think that leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the defau= lt =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0<= /p>

R= egards,
Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <= ;andy@yumaworks.com= >
Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwil= ton) <rwilton@cis= co.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@= ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file inc= lude-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

<= div>

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">On Fr= i, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:

Andy,

=C2=A0

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean f= lag might be sufficient.=C2=A0 My point being that automatically filtering = out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The solut= ion is simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate = "default trim" statement.

=C2=A0

If the leaf is present then it identifies the= basic-mode that was used to include defaults.

If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or defa= ults were not added.

=C2=A0=

The "default" statement is a bug because there is = no default basic-mode.

All of the basic-mode= s are in use in deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs is right.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

Andy

=C2=A0

E.g., something along these lines:=

=C2=A0

leaf exclude-defaults {

=C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default true;

=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 W= hen unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined and=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value is the = default value are excluded from the content

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0data.

=C2=A0=

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When set to false, data nodes with default v= alue are not filtered, and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

=C2=A0

Would this satisfy your concern?

=C2=A0

Regards,
Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From= : netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
S= ent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

The module has this object:<= /p>

=C2=A0

=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 value 1;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Al=
l data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 any default values.";
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have=
 a default defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actu=
al value is the default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 NOT be included.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 description
<=
span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a defaul=
t defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value =
is the default value SHOULD NOT be
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in=
cluded. However, if the actual value was set by
<= pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt">= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management application= 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit management operation the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default trim;<=
/u>
=C2=A0

The draft= is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this<= /u>

= leaf is too server-centric to ignore.=

=C2=A0

Consider the possibili= ty that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

This data may not be known so the default of "trim" m= ay not be correct.

=C2=A0

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema = will also

know the YANG defaults.=C2=A0 Th= e solution is incomplete anyway because

=

the = presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.<= /u>

The=C2=A0 "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to = identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be r= emoved, but at least add an enum called "unknown".<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

Andy

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

--000000000000fccc7a05ca4c8571-- From nobody Wed Aug 25 09:29:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B8A3A1143 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 09:29:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ks6KrupTv_QT for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 09:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x229.google.com (mail-lj1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3CA43A11FC for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 09:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x229.google.com with SMTP id s12so19462969ljg.0 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 09:29:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gy3J/LLF8lYG3BZMrAVLpulE6tQc/AIvk+MzopoAe7g=; b=JFYsRtKFAbfet1f70d8H5b41VQ5OR4JHMa3DtLgRQZwE3G37JKMpJ3r2w2n5Lxmo08 N9bw22tVk/nJKWiS3zIr6w33BizvJWyngQ58UW0LPNSkR87dsXgNeCLKlsAOo3GPhy/0 XfiDzgvB1w6u/nLfLPldRf5I7vciXacxh3jm37oei8rdPYiK/bDcMGW72KsdkMmyvmqh WlfDmo8Gdh6gWWylKxXPwEGTUg3q8Tk4y8cZqPYqZFIqid0jQOJ7EiAK132hRnu8mjAf 2NUZPkXBCgTQyr93zaL6j+xVx3FjAq+WdAl8uq/ECRc4wMVj8o85bAkP3uIV6eDDn0KK 76VQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gy3J/LLF8lYG3BZMrAVLpulE6tQc/AIvk+MzopoAe7g=; b=dh2L6zlFV0VlWb56XyLpMqcIxPPdd5nWTxCyemkGCHHBSBpK57vVr/6vW8ipOJoyEI XIXc/pJo63JtDuMg8f9+l9Smu8h95ReA5adpLRohJa1e1ej+nX/uJX1mcNyG0ebMSpT9 WlZEleLSyfv/fFKPJr0lnXzQDl0HhnD4sRkBehoG56zfn7cmQ2b/+fHMbsxPO3LZ1Orq 4ervbZ8yu5k1N06p3coBYxXLZXwbR/tYKMEGEx1Tc17dQt6RKpV2irxm1D68jNYE6mxL 4j3RTgETrwKGVW/5cqrKHGFSEeYkuHW6yq+IzxjV1B0g2g2t6PWIpa91FE9FC0uG3LO3 5OTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5338EafVh96FOKP8ZrgDbYEE5qrapQ2AFisqzyjNsw5K3L/+PJ/j 9/v99lkFs5Rdh9UnF/yR9L/6l8LO4HSIM8i9s2382w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzVSnZiyowalBoWVhEGDhMpKu+W0vrMuTMr2ImBPIFLZeBR7pQtA6HGaHxd8kfjIpDMbHsp6N/TAk7NzDqtNfs= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8403:: with SMTP id z3mr38292982ljg.298.1629908967907; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 09:29:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 09:29:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000c7b8405ca64c111" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:29:48 -0000 --0000000000000c7b8405ca64c111 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section 3. IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change approach= . leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; AB: should follow 6243, 3.1 } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2 } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3 } } description "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data sets, thus any data node MAY be absent. Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a full data set, this leaf specifies whether the data set includes data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the same as the default value. Data nodes that have no default values should always be included. Data nodes that have a default value, but the actual value is not equal to the schema defined default should always be included."; AB: The last paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes special? Nodes that are actually present and do not contain the YANG default are not relevant to this object. reference "RFC 6243 : With-defaults Capability for NETCONF"; } The best way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data set is to include the "default" attribute in each default node. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6 This actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current solution). Andy On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > Hello Andy, > > In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you > proposed. > > > > I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as > instance-file-format does not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2= =80=9D. It has a > single leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specif= ic > instance-data-set. > > As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to > specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handlin= g > used for this specific instance data set. > > > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Rob, > > I think this won=E2=80=99t fly. > > In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: > > *=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D* > > Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because th= ey are not part of the partial data set. > > In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing beca= use > > - They are not part of the partial data-set > > - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used > > If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. > > > > > > > > I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to > > represent "no defaults added". > > > > Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a le= af > reporting the YANG default > > could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify > defaults in this case. > > > > Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults > ever reported. > > This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default and > always returns > > every node (if with-defaults used or not). > > > > This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. > > Regards Balazs > > > > Andy > > > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, > > > > Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the > description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOUL= Ds. > > > > Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are > somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the default > values. > > > > With these definitions, I think that we could define the > =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cexplicit= =E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not > included, then I think that this effectively what the meaning would be > anyway. > > > > > > In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > > > Proposed: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "The instance data set includes all data nodes, > > including those that contain the schema default.=E2=80=9D= ; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "The instance data set excludes all data nodes > > that contain the schema default."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "The instance data set may include some data nodes > > that match the schema default and may exclude some > > data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; > > } > > } > > description > > "This leaf provides an indication of how default data > > is presented within an instance data set, modelled on > > RFC 6243. > > > > Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the > > context of what the instance data set represents. > > > > E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, > > Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the > > default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the > > instance data set represents operational data from the > > operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then > > include-defaults aligns to the definition of that > > datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; > > > > Would text along these lines work? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Sent:* 28 July 2021 23:08 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hello Rob, > > Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. > > > > Your *in-use-values* is very specific to one of the use-cases: > reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other > use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational datastore=E2=80= =9D use-case could > be handled by indicating the *includes-defaults=3Dreport-all*. Case (i) > would contain the value case (ii) will not. > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 > *To:* Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Andy, Balazs, > > > > So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are > in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: > > > > Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value > > in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified > > in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then > > this implies that the node is not used by the device. > > > > It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data > cannot differentiate between: > > (i) This value is not present because it matches the > default value specified in the YANG module, and > > (ii) This value is not present because the server has failed > to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have > provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or > perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). > > > > So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not > necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the > instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this da= ta. > > > > I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another > way of articulating this would be: > > > > leaf in-use-values { > > type boolean; > > default false; > > description > > =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the > > instance data for a given data node implies that the > > node is not used rather than implicitly taking the > > default value specified by any corresponding > > =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2= =80=9D; > > } > > > > With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-def= ault=E2=80=9D leaf > currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that > leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim= =E2=80=9D. > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 10 July 2021 17:41 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Cc:* NetMod WG ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: > > Andy, > > > > Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be > sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default valu= es > isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. > > > > > > > > The solution is simple. > > Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. > > > > If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to > include defaults. > > If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or > defaults were not added. > > > > The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. > > All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever > > been able to convince the others that theirs is right. > > > > > > Andy > > > > E.g., something along these lines: > > > > leaf exclude-defaults { > > type boolean; > > default true; > > description > > =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. > > > > When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined a= nd > > where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the > content > > data. > > > > When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, > and > > may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D > > } > > > > Would this satisfy your concern? > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16 > *To:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > The module has this object: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > default trim; > > > > The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this > > leaf is too server-centric to ignore. > > > > Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF > server. > > This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. > > > > IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also > > know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because > > the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. > > The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. > > IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown= ". > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > --0000000000000c7b8405ca64c111 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Here is the latest text. It is inco= nsistent with RFC 6243, section 3.
IMO the subsections should be = cited instead of the copy-and-change approach.

leaf includes-defaults = { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values.";

AB: should follow 6243, 3.1
           }
           enum trim {
             value 2;
             description
               "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
                 the actual value is the default value SHOULD
                 NOT be included.";

AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2
           }
           enum explicit {
             value 3;
             description
               "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
                 the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
                 included. However, if the actual value was set by
                 a NETCONF client or other management application
                 by the way of an explicit management operation the
                 data node SHOULD be included.";

AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3
           }
         }
         description
           "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data sets,
             thus any data node MAY be absent.

             Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a
             full data set, this leaf specifies whether the data set
             includes data nodes that have a default defined and
             where the actual value is the same as the default value.

             Data nodes that have no default values should always
             be included.
             Data nodes that have a default value, but the actual
             value is not equal to the schema defined default
             should always be included.";


AB: The last paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nod=
es special?
Nodes =
that are actually present and do not contain the YANG default
are not relevant to this object=
.

         reference
           "=
RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF";
       }

The best way to indicate a represen= tation of a YANG default in the data set is to include
the "= default" attribute in each default node.=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/do= c/html/rfc6243#section-6
This actually works for explicit mod= e and leaf-lists (unlike the current solution).

Andy


=
On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.= lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy,

In the -17 I remo= ved the default value for includes-defaults as you proposed.<= /p>

=C2=A0

I = am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as instance-file-format d= oes not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single le= af to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specific instance= -data-set.

As this is not a live se= rver request/reply situation we do not want to specify a basic and addition= al modes, we just want to specify the handling used for this specific insta= nce data set.

=C2=A0<= /p>

Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
= Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58
To: Bal=C3= =A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilt= on) <rwilton@cisc= o.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instanc= e-file include-defaults leaf

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengy= el@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Rob,

I think this won=E2=80=99t fly.

In sections 1.2 and 2 we state:

=E2=80=9CInstance data=
 files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D
Which =
is important for many use-cases.=C2=A0 This means you cannot say that a def=
ault value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because they =
are not part of the partial data set.
In a way it is diff=
icult to separate between leaves that are missing because<=
/u>
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 They are not part of the partial data-set
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are omitted=
 because they have the default value and one of the trim or explicit option=
s is used
If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I thought = we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way to=

represent "no defaults added= ".

=C2=A0=

Note that "report-all" = is not useful=C2=A0if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a leaf reporting the YAN= G default

could be set b= y the client.=C2=A0 Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify defaults i= n this case.

=C2= =A0

Also note that if basic-mod= e=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults ever reported.<= /p>

This mode means the server does not co= nsider any node to be a default and always returns

<= div>

every node (if with-defaults used or not).

=C2=A0

This is the reason I used the SHOULD word.=

Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <= rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27
To:= Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <n= etmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file i= nclude-defaults leaf

= =C2=A0

Hi Bala= zs, Andy, Netmod,

=C2=A0

Sorry for the delayed response.=C2=A0 I would still like to stre= ngth the description of the defaults.=C2=A0 E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rathe= r than SHOULDs.

=C2=A0

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, = that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the = default values.

=C2=A0

With these definitions, I think that we could define the =E2=80= =9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D= , since if the leaf if not included, then I think that this effectively wha= t the meaning would be anyway.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In particular, I would propose changing the descrip= tions as follows:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data no= des SHOULD be included independent of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.&quo= t;;

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes tha= t have a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the de= fault value SHOULD

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default d= efined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHOULD= NOT be

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value was set by

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management application=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by= the way of an explicit management operation the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node S= HOULD be included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 }

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0

Proposed:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The instance data set include= s all data nodes,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 including those that contain the schema default.= =E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The inst= ance data set excludes all data nodes

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that contain the schema defau= lt.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The i= nstance data set may include some data nodes

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that match the schema d= efault and may exclude some

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data nodes that match the schema defau= lt.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "This= leaf provides an indication of how default data

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is presented within an instance data set,= modelled on

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC = 6243.

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Interpretat= ion of the use of defaults depends on the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 context of what the instance data set represent= s.

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 E.g., if the i= nstance data set represents configuration,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of = the

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default-han= dling basic modes in RFC 6243.=C2=A0 If the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data set represents operational data f= rom the

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0ope= rational state datastore [RFC 8342], then

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 include-defaults aligns to the definition of th= at

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 datastore in R= FC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0

Would text along these lines work?

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-t= op:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsso= n.com>
Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilto= n@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <<= a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org>=
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80= =9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

=C2=A0

Your in-use-values is very specific = to one of the use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It is not = useful for the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operationa= l datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the include= s-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case (ii) wil= l not.

R= egards Balazs

=C2=A0

From: = Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd= 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel= @ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0<= /p>

H= i Andy, Balazs,

=C2=A0

So, the reas= on that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are in use is beca= use of this definition of operational in RFC 8342:

=

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requests to retrieve nodes from <oper= ational> always return the value

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in use i= f the node exists, regardless of any default value specified<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the YANG module.=C2=A0 If no value is returned for a gi= ven node, then

=C2=A0=C2=A0 this implies that the node is= not used by the device.

=C2=A0

It = was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data canno= t differentiate between:

(i)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <= span lang=3D"EN-GB">This value is not present because it matches the defaul= t value specified in the YANG module, and

(ii)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 This value is not present because the se= rver has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that= would have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is = a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation).=

=C2=A0

So, I think that in some cases, = the absence of a data node does not necessarily mean that the default value= is in effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to contai= n and correctly report this data.

=C2=A0<= u>

I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf.=C2=A0= Another way of articulating this would be:

=C2=A0

leaf in-use-v= alues {

= =C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default false;

=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9COnly if se= t to true, the absence of a value in the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data fo= r a given data node implies that the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0node is not used rather= than implicitly taking the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default value specified by any = corresponding

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified = in the YANG schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">With = this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2= =80=9D leaf currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would th= ink that leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80= =9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

Regards,Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>=
Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <= ;rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson= .com>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-def= aults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Jul = 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:

Andy,

=C2=A0

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag m= ight be sufficient.=C2=A0 My point being that automatically filtering out d= efault values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The solution= is simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate &qu= ot;default trim" statement.

=C2=A0

If the leaf is present then it identifies the ba= sic-mode that was used to include defaults.

<= div>

= If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or default= s were not added.

=C2=A0

The "default" statement is a bug because there is no = default basic-mode.

All of the basic-modes a= re in use in deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs is right.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

Andy

=C2=A0

E.g., something along these lines:=

=C2=A0

leaf exclude-defaults {=

=C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default true;=

=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2= =80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When unse= t or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined and<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value is the default = value are excluded from the content

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0data.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When set to false, data nodes with default value are = not filtered, and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 may ap= pear in the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

=C2=A0

Would this satisfy your concern?=

=C2=A0

Regards,
Rob

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

From: netm= od <netmod-= bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: 0= 8 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod]= yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

The module has this object:

<= div>

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 va=
lue 1;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes=
 SHOULD be included independent of
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 an=
y default values.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 de=
scription
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default defi=
ned and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the=
 default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.&=
quot;;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;
= 
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default defined and wher=
e
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default val=
ue SHOULD NOT be
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, i=
f the actual value was set by
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCON=
F client or other management application
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 by the way of an explicit management operation the=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default trim;
<= pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0

The draft is extremely ser= ver-centric, like most IETF standards, but this

leaf is too server-centric to ignore.

= =C2=A0

Consider the possibility that the sou= rce of the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

Thi= s data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be corre= ct.

=C2=A0

IM= O this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also

know the YANG defaults.=C2=A0 The solution is inc= omplete anyway because

the presence of a lea= f that has a YANG default is not enough.

The= =C2=A0 "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults= .

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at le= ast add an enum called "unknown".

<= div>

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

=

Andy

=C2=A0

<= div>

= =C2=A0

<= /div>
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u+ni7rS4FMdu4qSw4T3b/zXT45EthaxYeM73l/HzexxTVuIYYK8zx0TWEhhWBhxabVRCZdzDzsam/4LKidBXHw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DS7PR08MB6864 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Weekly YANG Versioning calls - time change (2 hours staring 1 hour earlier) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 12:40:12 -0000 --_000_DM6PR08MB50844C06E5F17D38BB431E499BC89DM6PR08MB5084namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, In order to help move the YANG versioning work forward we're going to exten= d the weekly calls to 2 hours (starting 1 hour earlier than before). This c= hange takes effect on our next meeting on Tuesday August 31st. As always, anyone is welcome (and encouraged) to join. It would be particul= arly good to get more user/client/operator input on these calls. Updated Webex info: NETMOD Working Group is inviting you to a scheduled Webex meeting. Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, August 31, 2021 from 8:00 AM to 10:= 00 AM, (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) 8:00 AM | (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) | 2 hrs Join meeting More ways to join: Join from the meeting link https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dme2c6491ebcc37b8127c1244d244d2754 Join by meeting number Meeting number (access code): 161 096 5630 Meeting password: semver? Tap to join from a mobile device (attendees only) +1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Join by phone 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Global call-in numbers Join from a video system or application Dial 1610965630@ietf.webex.com<%20sip:1610965630@ietf.webex.com> You can also dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number. Need help? Go to https://help.webex.com Rgds, Jason --_000_DM6PR08MB50844C06E5F17D38BB431E499BC89DM6PR08MB5084namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

In order to help move the YANG = versioning work forward we're going to extend the weekly calls to 2 hours (= starting 1 hour earlier than before). This change takes effect on our next = meeting on Tuesday August 31st.

 

As always, anyone is welcome (a= nd encouraged) to join. It would be particularly good to get more user/clie= nt/operator input on these calls.

 

Updated Webex info:<= /span>

 

NETMOD Wo= rking Group is inviting you to a scheduled Webex meeting.

 

 

 

Occurs eve= ry Tuesday effective Tuesday, August 31, 2021 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM, (UT= C-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada)

8:00 AM&nb= sp; |  (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada)  = ;|  2 hrs

 

 

 = ;

Join meeting

 

 

More ways= to join:

&nb= sp;

Join from = the meeting link

https://ietf.webex.= com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dme2c6491ebcc37b8127c1244d244d2754

 

 

 

Join by me= eting number

Meeting nu= mber (access code): 161 096 5630

Meeting pa= ssword: semver?

 

 

 

Tap to joi= n from a mobile device (attendees only)

+1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## Call-in toll number (US/Canada)

 

 

Join by ph= one

1-650-479-= 3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada)

Global call-in numbers

 

 

 

Join from = a video system or application

Dial 1610965630@ietf.webex.com

You can al= so dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number.

 

 

 

Need help? G= o to http= s://help.webex.com

 

Rgds,

Jason

 

 

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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Kuk1f0Ony2jbviOUrxDK/JzSPt86xICqNZVCsec4Mk0MJyp3R6Bpgro4O45kNsg9fUz+rcBcqq8XCSHtGh1D6g== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR08MB2859 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-08-31 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 14:30:47 -0000 --_000_DM6PR08MB5084AEBD80CEB8B3960537149BCC9DM6PR08MB5084namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-08-31 Bo volunteered to do editing of the Packages draft. Jason suggested that we distribute the work of proposing specific text chan= ges to other weekly call members (not the draft editor) to spread the workl= oad around. Reviewed open github issues against Module Versioning: - https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/104 (my-module#3.2.3.yan= g). Joe to post proposal back to WG. - https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/103 (history removal) Rob= to propose text - https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/27 (if-feature not "foo"= ) defer this for now but needs some discussion/investigation Started reviewing open github issues against Packages: - https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/29 (deviation examples) = defer for now - https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/30 (mandatory module rev= ision dates) Jason to propose text changes - https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/31 (IANA registry) defer= for now - https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/32 (define metadata). We= agreed on which leafs are "metadata" (changes =3D editorial). TBD who will= propose text changes - https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/33 (timestamp or date in= metadata). Agreed on date-and-time. No changes needed to draft. Jason ---------------------------------------------- Weekly webex call details: Meeting number (access code): 161 096 5630 Meeting password: semver? Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, August 31, 2021 from 8:00 AM to 10:= 00 AM, (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) 8:00 AM | (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) | 2 hrs https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dme2c6491ebcc37b8127c1244d244d2754 Tap to join from a mobile device (attendees only) +1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## Call-in toll number (US/Canada) --_000_DM6PR08MB5084AEBD80CEB8B3960537149BCC9DM6PR08MB5084namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-08-31

 

Bo volunteered to do editing of the Packages draft.<= o:p>

 

Jason suggested that we distribute the work of propo= sing specific text changes to other weekly call members (not the draft edit= or) to spread the workload around.

 

Reviewed open github issues against Module Versionin= g:

- https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/104  (my-module#3.= 2.3.yang). Joe to post proposal back to WG.

- https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/103 (history removal) R= ob to propose text

- https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/27  (if-feature no= t "foo") defer this for now but needs some discussion/investigati= on

 

Started reviewing open github issues against Package= s:

- https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/29  (deviation exa= mples) defer for now

- https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/30  (mandatory mod= ule revision dates) Jason to propose text changes

- https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/31  (IANA registry= ) defer for now

- https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/32  (define metada= ta). We agreed on which leafs are "metadata" (changes =3D editori= al). TBD who will propose text changes

- https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/33  (timestamp or = date in metadata). Agreed on date-and-time. No changes needed to draft.

 

Jason

 

----------------------------------------------<= /o:p>

Weekly webex call details:

Meeting number (access code): 161 096 5630

Meeting password: semver?

Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, August 31, 2= 021 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM, (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada)

8:00 AM  |  (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US &= amp; Canada)  |  2 hrs

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dme2c6491ebc= c37b8127c1244d244d2754

Tap to join from a mobile device (attendees only)

+1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## Call-in toll number (U= S/Canada)

 

 

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