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CC: Jan Lindblad , NetMod WG Thread-Topic: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 Thread-Index: AdhDM4+5OxgbBaqeSH6xgBaPQU/BEQA6CG/g///C3YCAAHp/gP//JrBQgAImAwD//nv1UA== Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 09:36:33 +0000 Message-ID: <6cfc03372fdd4a0da453688b4bca3d0c@huawei.com> References: <8F7D5127-E621-4920-BE30-89E1BF7E778D@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.100.87] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6cfc03372fdd4a0da453688b4bca3d0chuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2022 09:36:43 -0000 --_000_6cfc03372fdd4a0da453688b4bca3d0chuaweicom_ Content-Type: 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SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mg-soft.si Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VRoKO8f4DHnf for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 03:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galileo.mg-soft.si (gate.mg-soft.si [212.30.73.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A67F73A1277 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 03:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.222] (tp-x61t.mg-soft.si [10.0.0.222]) by galileo.mg-soft.si (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB915C401147 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 12:50:25 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 galileo.mg-soft.si AB915C401147 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mg-soft.si; s=default; t=1648810225; bh=tYLfrYNVV9FHSKbDAu6qGtkojQZHPLdzzQkkTEeSK6M=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=L+oeryfxXSVJJ3w4TW4G8/mfH3rWzr9nQYDAZXNjp7Smb8X1+LPq9WqUFwAGtnPoe 5UPwLSKdnmUtFs9UqVZbOszVzY3dwJ1hp6sEIT5NLFoyCgBIx5+1UrKbsN9Xv7O4vd UwupCxWj+pnw5X6kyZtDMDlJm1yzAhZo/4LjeHn9FhLtzz4J5admWeWntq2d+iRo5b 0a6CacV/t+86QB3xm5zR5YLWAHKVlO4H3qFiFkTJLfwIf1+qF7hnybT6T34lL424nh rx5VGMY1WGwv3UenzdCA0bKKqRWsJSMpz662wl/vveAPV5FtZgrFApaTbW4eRxNOXu KzzbItBguAxFg== Message-ID: <3740e8e7-5e90-f2e2-b252-0dd42690f71c@mg-soft.si> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 12:50:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: NETMOD Working Group From: Jernej Tuljak Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] RPC input parameter definition order (uses augment) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2022 10:50:34 -0000 Hi, RFC7950, 7.14.4. says:    Input parameters are encoded as child XML elements to the rpc node's    XML element, in the same order as they are defined within the "input"    statement. For the following model: module b {   namespace "b:uri";   prefix b;   grouping params {     container params {       leaf x {         type string;       }     }   }   rpc foo {     input {       uses params {         augment params {           leaf y {             type string;           }         }       }     }   } } If both "leaf" data nodes are instantiated (XML encoding) as part of for "foo", does come before or after (in document order)? Jernej From nobody Fri Apr 1 04:24:47 2022 Return-Path: <0100017fe4dec66b-298dc5a9-2d75-4a10-b90b-d11553726957-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93D93A1312 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 04:24:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jJZOlkJ_-pms for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 04:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01A043A1122 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 04:24:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1648812279; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:From:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:Message-Id:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:Feedback-ID; bh=IOXaXi8xknZtryZJ1jyP1ferRdehWtr/b91kDDQoFGA=; b=B0P6PC1YIxmlt9fVOtSYHfkHWUntc1IpvEnj2tmhNsR+fgzPw5VaMtdOU/QHygi4 GXYdWQ4b01I5YXXn1B/0giGuziv05AADDqkXGBWvHKuOzI0FpOJxev0x95WM+HS93U6 H73aujeQ8IOzNSknM7LsHaRPsmSQ1oF3l6QEEr60= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Kent Watsen Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 11:24:39 +0000 Message-ID: <0100017fe4dec66b-298dc5a9-2d75-4a10-b90b-d11553726957-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <3740e8e7-5e90-f2e2-b252-0dd42690f71c@mg-soft.si> Cc: NETMOD Working Group In-Reply-To: <3740e8e7-5e90-f2e2-b252-0dd42690f71c@mg-soft.si> To: Jernej Tuljak X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18H107) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.04.01-54.240.8.96 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] RPC input parameter definition order (uses augment) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2022 11:24:45 -0000 Hi Jernej, > RFC7950, 7.14.4. says: >=20 > Input parameters are encoded as child XML elements to the rpc node's > XML element, in the same order as they are defined within the "input" > statement. >=20 > For the following model: >=20 > module b { > namespace "b:uri"; > prefix b; >=20 > grouping params { > container params { > leaf x { > type string; > } > } > } >=20 > rpc foo { > input { > uses params { > augment params { > leaf y { > type string; > } > } > } > } > } > } >=20 > If both "leaf" data nodes are instantiated (XML encoding) as part of = for "foo", does come before or after (in document order)? Augmented-in nodes come after other nodes.=20 I=E2=80=99ve always wished there were a way to specify where they=E2=80=99re= placed, for readability, but it=E2=80=99s too inconsequential to raise as a= n issue here.=20 > Jernej Kent= From nobody Fri Apr 1 06:49:54 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F11DA3A0CDE for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 06:49:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5OppscEz5KJy for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 06:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x112d.google.com (mail-yw1-x112d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18A9B3A0B64 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 06:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x112d.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2eb2fc29caeso2924227b3.4 for ; Fri, 01 Apr 2022 06:49:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Z3HUjxokP+NpvEv5V2GUG/R37YZ+baXtJ0QxNYmeWVw=; b=wa1ViSVDjB3R+YKvSUbPvtd5UG/5kjYbHCZZiunF/L3/yHhYDabTH3o48R1Xuh9huf uXSSGIakjrU/Hv6nU4j4d9QXqZZ3w7s4TPUmJNWujozdsquUBDlPaYi1RdDBZxTPZrsG mPbVmYO5S/EHL7Urw3Vs7sYPAtVWgM8t+SQKrF5CU6DWBLXeS0ZF/Smgg/+xnGApFPVv 9L0GA5ngWKHDhBtKAPIvjLz0G08zIXHnvNMfnb1l+YoGB2BEcxsaGB6ToVbBDpb8tzQk mpuHGzSjk3KBGusn4jdwsw5uDrBjQGs1x6W7wa+CCUWPdWzQ6hPUb3NaDrmRxHhIm2S7 uRMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Z3HUjxokP+NpvEv5V2GUG/R37YZ+baXtJ0QxNYmeWVw=; b=ficit7ccQ+zeZWb6Emwq8jyGCpEzbjLOMApZd5tOczw2D55+2wNEB33MrL9+gKmEuR u/viI9cWtfZ8/U3sexk38S0apm77FzguuwHbNrN+bxawkG9Z5nteRvXdFCeZ9dbXl6OP iyFPz5X/Vvgv3pWNNrWghs3kkkmCrLpDbUlPkNmGc+uyJLe+l2+RpIpet0gtpNmSTysv 3tSPotPWuTzly3MGKBgXqgz18t+YExFUBAF9LmOmh10llyQIUSMP7FWZY0uroFjw067s ffETPfxGmAbNayQ+vGajwA7j/qWmF21cEb1/yf/qEihTWhj7shtlMDTthhcJWM83q41Y +Vgg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5326agljH2u8G9oTnBDGnfn806FEEe3ivP8IMxeFuilpTRgwKhFX Mi8okHuGGuwpclSl9e813mm3qdoe6ux3KUedh4UCLoGpErGk4A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyoO1DMNu++XsBnCgdqw7f1JDgvH/v5C8z+ZtQ73bQn02zxUg3ZeFzLFuk3Iqc7goNmMeKj8ieiLqUqSy+9Cvc= X-Received: by 2002:a81:60d6:0:b0:2e6:bba1:966c with SMTP id u205-20020a8160d6000000b002e6bba1966cmr9961090ywb.322.1648820986750; Fri, 01 Apr 2022 06:49:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3740e8e7-5e90-f2e2-b252-0dd42690f71c@mg-soft.si> <0100017fe4dec66b-298dc5a9-2d75-4a10-b90b-d11553726957-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <0100017fe4dec66b-298dc5a9-2d75-4a10-b90b-d11553726957-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 06:49:36 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: Jernej Tuljak , NETMOD Working Group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000036c0e905db980d56" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] RPC input parameter definition order (uses augment) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2022 13:49:53 -0000 --00000000000036c0e905db980d56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 4:24 AM Kent Watsen wrote: > > Hi Jernej, > > > RFC7950, 7.14.4. says: > > > > Input parameters are encoded as child XML elements to the rpc node's > > XML element, in the same order as they are defined within the "input= " > > statement. > > > > For the following model: > > > > module b { > > namespace "b:uri"; > > prefix b; > > > > grouping params { > > container params { > > leaf x { > > type string; > > } > > } > > } > > > > rpc foo { > > input { > > uses params { > > augment params { > > leaf y { > > type string; > > } > > } > > } > > } > > } > > } > > > > If both "leaf" data nodes are instantiated (XML encoding) as part of > for "foo", does come before or after (in document order)? > > Augmented-in nodes come after other nodes. > > Maybe this is an implementation convention, but the RFC says they are encoded in any order. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-7.17.2 I=E2=80=99ve always wished there were a way to specify where they=E2=80=99r= e placed, for > readability, but it=E2=80=99s too inconsequential to raise as an issue he= re. There is no canonical order defined for any schema nodes. There is no order at all defined for top-level or augmenting schema nodes. > > > Jernej > > Kent > Andy > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --00000000000036c0e905db980d56 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 4:24 AM Kent W= atsen <kent@watsen.net> wrote:=

Hi Jernej,

> RFC7950, 7.14.4. says:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Input parameters are encoded as child XML elements to the= rpc node's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 XML element, in the same order as they are defined within= the "input"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 statement.
>
> For the following model:
>
> module b {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0namespace "b:uri";
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0prefix b;
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0grouping params {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0container params {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf x {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type string;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0rpc foo {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0input {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0uses params {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0augment params {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf y {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type string;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0}
> }
>
> If both "leaf" data nodes are instantiated (XML encoding) as= part of <rpc> for "foo", does <x> come before or aft= er <y> (in document order)?

Augmented-in nodes come after other nodes.



Maybe this is an implem= entation convention, but the RFC says they are encoded in any order.
<= div>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-7.17.2




> Jernej

Kent

Andy
=C2=A0
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
--00000000000036c0e905db980d56-- From nobody Fri Apr 1 11:24:15 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377F93A1313 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 11:24:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ya0sh-kX7mU7 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 11:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8AAA3A1368 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 11:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 99073 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2022 18:22:32 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=182fb.624742e8.k2204; bh=Fqga12aySHQALydRO8+JfKTmydFHFyGIMeRqmYdt3yY=; b=jQf264+KXeQSk2ZAcqaLlkc3TKOeAIRaRzgDx0PtXXTPQwYwQyCy/STvlDqjT3LB5KQTu2MuzNZSyBsMWJV2ZwHezONunJaUiP6IC0iQxf9P/dvGiM5qcRBcP38lfgyC1POYBJbEHH5BVl+VD94zQa/5vUVOQ2nuzgm5iKAt4GsO1OMUXTJxoCIGwxg+7RHCmOir0rp3mt/7trMzGAwWLASCqmSH+rTHpzrS2XprJm46lGGJ+sJ8gae3iPBDG0RRh9m4bM4ML5c20eNr3j1t5nDhbhYs1BvPoNGHo2Au0gDHXWNYN0bA2iNc8yprnp+yTLOywZvR/i2SuZk5Ixk4UQ== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 01 Apr 2022 18:22:32 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id E61793A2C6F3; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 14:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7773A2C6D5; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 14:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: 1 Apr 2022 14:22:30 -0400 Message-ID: <4cfd57ef-8dcc-f9f6-2600-d14b1cfb9baf@iecc.com> From: "John R. Levine" To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "Andy Bierman" Cc: "rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org" , "Kent Watsen" , "tom petch" , "netmod@ietf.org" X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: <4234_1648793307_624696DB_4234_89_1_9ea4a9300d8341d5b564fea79025e391@orange.com> References: <20220330212032.B1C784C1D2@rfcpa.amsl.com> <0100017fdcedaf32-a7793fc0-367f-4737-a505-6045ecfc74ed-000000@email.amazonses.com> <25000_1648704694_62453CB6_25000_113_1_315eaf0b15d04ffea9a7f1f5a7b07324@orange.com> <4234_1648793307_624696DB_4234_89_1_9ea4a9300d8341d5b564fea79025e391@orange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2022 18:24:13 -0000 > Hi John, all, > > If we want the fix to the appendix to be immediately visible to the readers (in the rendered version), wouldn’t be more appropriate to mark this erratum as “verified” rather than “held for doc update”? I suppose. In 2018 when this RFC was published, the Trust still said "Simplified" so what's in the text matches what the author intended at the time. Not a big deal either way for me, since as I noted, the actual license it points to has always been correct. Only the name was wrong. R's, John > De : Andy Bierman > Envoyé : jeudi 31 mars 2022 19:11 > À : John R. Levine > Cc : tom petch ; BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET ; Kent Watsen ; rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org; netmod@ietf.org > Objet : Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) > > > > On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 9:56 AM John R. Levine > wrote: >> There are not thousands of RFCs that include a "Module Review Checklist" :-), which is the purpose of this erratum. Thanks. >> >> >> >> I agree. There may be lots of RFC in error because RFC8407 gets it wrong but if the update to the lots of RFC was wanted then it should have been investigated last Autumn when the announcement of the change to the TLP was made, an announcement that passed me by despite being on all the right mailing lists. > > The fix to the TLP was my idea in the first place and it's not that big of > a deal. If you follow the link and read that part of the TLP, the actual > license has never changed. We just give it the correct name now. > > I agree the checklist in Appendix A should be updated. > > The corrected RFC (any RFC where Errata Exists) should be available online. > Not erasing the published RFC, but with a link to rfcNNNN-current (where all accepted Errata is applied). > > > Regards, > John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly > > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > > Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Fri Apr 1 12:19:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 955383A19CC for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 12:19:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09-_UrYg-QUl for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x1130.google.com (mail-yw1-x1130.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACD6B3A19CB for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2022 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1130.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2e6ceb45174so43537447b3.8 for ; Fri, 01 Apr 2022 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cdECG0nhEpmltQ4AfpIB5fo+3V/EM1RufSNS/DtEcBU=; b=bi8GAnJcb/mjrtZgk3gwJlpvplFwEqmv+6EKP+hVw1s6hFsswaHILgFk8KasQNHDXR 9ZLa28+SQScnjzvVI01aHHYbPOim1+xHJkiptOT8DuXTo4uRQIA3TkVuSDuw4CdSRdmJ ItQoa8Ke8VcuLjau+zjxdVIqHR/GNYhz4XluOYxfPcNU58+yjnaYlH9v9tt+An5l/8zn weykayHTp5erB3oPP/sin/sJmWFDXI6LAbwSBABAhYRLkFC8pV2ZpNH49sS4F9OFBE6w RBmhmS2FV5yoeTfoiUeeMMEmGoAtmoA6KMv/xz832xp48+eVlk/4wF7cTNSuqUsJrjnK E8WA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cdECG0nhEpmltQ4AfpIB5fo+3V/EM1RufSNS/DtEcBU=; b=OBMAN2IRg/YqjxHMpJETT4qPIEqFSHSssVWG/++sN2kobEO7aVaR4mqBitEPV5otgE YPXQW1PRnlQDFXl7K17FL1jq1BD+8Xu8aU+39NqFw05e2IrVG5fHx21UCPj/5XIDZ9BX mMlhCMjWBxlSn7LeNE1wou4LifApdRHiwT3bBPPDNSOHyPWHUInydmPf/EEnXdTTe7GI 1VTl8qyF0DHDQ5huKbWFO3m2IBD/bKSl9dGiqQQc/OzOtBOzni87Twr1Lj0Zm08RAl11 Mqn3QPvF8FJwaDfOnrR5EM7ViSoWqytxlssysVptAbRjZAq1Qg3JrOuJ/O5gBiNBp42v 55Pw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532iH/bKnhEJm+wp107dF7/izo8PeAGhK1f0ogyzDzn3T4uQ92hS Kl0DQU7Ehw+TqvwiPZcL6VYo+oXRHtzPLBdnDLxpEg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwUKbMuGq3ZbhH94cUg/sSXpXxkw+sPxQdC9lgGOEbc+ZpWTWEXH0UUAEH1oLlv7gDc1tLFtYgoTHq+4G1GsQg= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:c706:0:b0:2eb:2d72:89e9 with SMTP id j6-20020a0dc706000000b002eb2d7289e9mr2514951ywd.159.1648840741359; Fri, 01 Apr 2022 12:19:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220330212032.B1C784C1D2@rfcpa.amsl.com> <0100017fdcedaf32-a7793fc0-367f-4737-a505-6045ecfc74ed-000000@email.amazonses.com> <25000_1648704694_62453CB6_25000_113_1_315eaf0b15d04ffea9a7f1f5a7b07324@orange.com> <4234_1648793307_624696DB_4234_89_1_9ea4a9300d8341d5b564fea79025e391@orange.com> <4cfd57ef-8dcc-f9f6-2600-d14b1cfb9baf@iecc.com> In-Reply-To: <4cfd57ef-8dcc-f9f6-2600-d14b1cfb9baf@iecc.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 12:18:50 -0700 Message-ID: To: "John R. Levine" Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org" , Kent Watsen , tom petch , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ae236605db9ca6ba" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2022 19:19:08 -0000 --000000000000ae236605db9ca6ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 11:22 AM John R. Levine wrote: > > Hi John, all, > > > > If we want the fix to the appendix to be immediately visible to the > readers (in the rendered version), wouldn=E2=80=99t be more appropriate t= o mark > this erratum as =E2=80=9Cverified=E2=80=9D rather than =E2=80=9Cheld for = doc update=E2=80=9D? > > I suppose. In 2018 when this RFC was published, the Trust still said > "Simplified" so what's in the text matches what the author intended at th= e > time. Not a big deal either way for me, since as I noted, the actual > license it points to has always been correct. Only the name was wrong. > > We intended to include the text provided. If people follow the guidelines in Appendix A now, and use the word "Simplified", it is going to need to be fixed later. Better to avoid that if possible. R's, > John > Andy > > > De : Andy Bierman > > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 31 mars 2022 19:11 > > =C3=80 : John R. Levine > > Cc : tom petch ; BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET < > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; Kent Watsen ; > rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org; netmod@ietf.org > > Objet : Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 9:56 AM John R. Levine johnl@iecc.com>> wrote: > >> There are not thousands of RFCs that include a "Module Review > Checklist" :-), which is the purpose of this erratum. Thanks. > >> > >> > >> > >> I agree. There may be lots of RFC in error because RFC8407 gets it > wrong but if the update to the lots of RFC was wanted then it should have > been investigated last Autumn when the announcement of the change to the > TLP was made, an announcement that passed me by despite being on all the > right mailing lists. > > > > The fix to the TLP was my idea in the first place and it's not that big > of > > a deal. If you follow the link and read that part of the TLP, the actu= al > > license has never changed. We just give it the correct name now. > > > > I agree the checklist in Appendix A should be updated. > > > > The corrected RFC (any RFC where Errata Exists) should be available > online. > > Not erasing the published RFC, but with a link to rfcNNNN-current (wher= e > all accepted Errata is applied). > > > > > > Regards, > > John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary > Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", > > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. > https://jl.ly > > > > > > Andy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________ > > > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez > recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message= s > electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme > ou falsifie. Merci. > > > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged > information that may be protected by law; > > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and > delete this message and its attachments. > > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have > been modified, changed or falsified. > > Thank you. > > > > > > Regards, > John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for > Dummies", > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly > --000000000000ae236605db9ca6ba Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 11:22 AM John = R. Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrot= e:
> Hi John,= all,
>
> If we want the fix to the appendix to be immediately visible to the re= aders (in the rendered version), wouldn=E2=80=99t be more appropriate to ma= rk this erratum as =E2=80=9Cverified=E2=80=9D rather than =E2=80=9Cheld for= doc update=E2=80=9D?

I suppose.=C2=A0 In 2018 when this RFC was published, the Trust still said =
"Simplified" so what's in the text matches what the author in= tended at the
time.=C2=A0 Not a big deal either way for me, since as I noted, the actual =
license it points to has always been correct.=C2=A0 Only the name was wrong= .


We intended to include the text provid= ed.
If people follow the guidelines in Appendix A now,
= and use the word "Simplified", it is going to need to be fixed la= ter.=C2=A0
Better to avoid that if possible.

=

R's,
John

Andy
=C2=A0

> De : Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 31 mars 2022 19:11
> =C3=80 : John R. Levine <johnl@iecc.com>
> Cc : tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>; BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET <mohamed.boucadai= r@orange.com>; Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net>; rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org; netmod@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899)<= br> >
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 9:56 AM John R. Levine <johnl@iecc.com<mailto:johnl@iecc.com>> wrote: >> There are not thousands of RFCs that include a "Module Review= Checklist" :-), which is the purpose of this erratum. Thanks.
>>
>> <tp>
>>
>> I agree.=C2=A0 There may be lots of RFC in error because RFC8407 g= ets it wrong but if the update to the lots of RFC was wanted then it should= have been investigated last Autumn when the announcement of the change to = the TLP was made, an announcement that passed me by despite being on all th= e right mailing lists.
>
> The fix to the TLP was my idea in the first place and it's not tha= t big of
> a deal.=C2=A0 If you follow the link and read that part of the TLP, th= e actual
> license has never changed.=C2=A0 We just give it the correct name now.=
>
> I agree the checklist in Appendix A should be updated.
>
> The corrected RFC (any RFC where Errata Exists) should be available on= line.
> Not erasing the published RFC, but with a link to rfcNNNN-current (whe= re all accepted Errata is applied).
>
>
> Regards,
> John Levine, john= l@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for = Dummies",
> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
>
>
> Andy
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ie= tf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >
> ______________________________________________________________________= ___________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con= fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez= recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les me= ssages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform= e ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege= d information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<= br> > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and= delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have = been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>
>

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@tau= gh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
--000000000000ae236605db9ca6ba-- From nobody Mon Apr 4 04:48:56 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FCC23A20FA for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2022 04:48:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mg-soft.si Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3IK7LGFdsGxx for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2022 04:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galileo.mg-soft.si (gate.mg-soft.si [212.30.73.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7580F3A2101 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2022 04:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.222] (tp-x61t.mg-soft.si [10.0.0.222]) by galileo.mg-soft.si (Postfix) with ESMTP id 782BDC401147; Mon, 4 Apr 2022 13:48:44 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 galileo.mg-soft.si 782BDC401147 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mg-soft.si; s=default; t=1649072924; bh=GWdFZtDH+Oo1AIciStXuDI5wQMQX+RWl3UwRAHAliD0=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=k5it5CXPzQa92FydbIBDVDlu6CpqAKxUKm0y2cmP3S237y2SGJz7H6KOhiVzAqmdq BjCLsNhBBOnPS1l0RW2lI+9VAUxiZA8He1xddNlrXRp5QvgcE3SLuYMtIBI7mMTO+x /ppdDaFqdkfrRXvJLlV3vdqMdn40Ifl/RICDqHwIo3t4OnUa1Ne4WawZ3C4iGQDEs7 yZmF1Z17InidTWRiTQpsET9+nQA89tZ0r4aItJib9VyglctjpMGPmBOMafUZzZGCyY Ym90Q4uAOwzixkb2JErRgQaKGCePnCBRuaWcB9KDPNkD1awv8ewC5SYiJPPDMev4DJ JmldI209jCpJg== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------NvVJ20g0040JW4w7nO05OtcQ" Message-ID: <9a55de3d-c7bc-597a-e1c8-e11f58325049@mg-soft.si> Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 13:48:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Andy Bierman , Kent Watsen Cc: NETMOD Working Group References: <3740e8e7-5e90-f2e2-b252-0dd42690f71c@mg-soft.si> <0100017fe4dec66b-298dc5a9-2d75-4a10-b90b-d11553726957-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Jernej Tuljak In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] RPC input parameter definition order (uses augment) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2022 11:48:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------NvVJ20g0040JW4w7nO05OtcQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 01/04/2022 15:49, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 4:24 AM Kent Watsen wrote: > > > Hi Jernej, > > > RFC7950, 7.14.4. says: > > > >    Input parameters are encoded as child XML elements to the rpc > node's > >    XML element, in the same order as they are defined within the > "input" > >    statement. > > > > For the following model: > > > > module b { > >   namespace "b:uri"; > >   prefix b; > > > >   grouping params { > >     container params { > >       leaf x { > >         type string; > >       } > >     } > >   } > > > >   rpc foo { > >     input { > >       uses params { > >         augment params { > >           leaf y { > >             type string; > >           } > >         } > >       } > >     } > >   } > > } > > > > If both "leaf" data nodes are instantiated (XML encoding) as > part of for "foo", does come before or after (in > document order)? > > Augmented-in nodes come after other nodes. > > > > Maybe this is an implementation convention, but the RFC says they are > encoded in any order. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-7.17.2 > You are referring to this:    When a node is augmented, the augmenting child nodes are encoded as    subelements to the augmented node, in any order. This implies interleaving of augmenting and non-augmenting child nodes within "input" parameters for XML encoding? Jernej > > I’ve always wished there were a way to specify where they’re > placed, for readability, but it’s too inconsequential to raise as > an issue here. > > > There is no canonical order defined for any schema nodes. > There is no order at all defined for top-level or augmenting schema nodes. > > > > > Jernej > > Kent > > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --------------NvVJ20g0040JW4w7nO05OtcQ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 01/04/2022 15:49, Andy Bierman wrote:


On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 4:24 AM Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net> wrote:

Hi Jernej,

> RFC7950, 7.14.4. says:
>
>    Input parameters are encoded as child XML elements to the rpc node's
>    XML element, in the same order as they are defined within the "input"
>    statement.
>
> For the following model:
>
> module b {
>   namespace "b:uri";
>   prefix b;
>
>   grouping params {
>     container params {
>       leaf x {
>         type string;
>       }
>     }
>   }
>
>   rpc foo {
>     input {
>       uses params {
>         augment params {
>           leaf y {
>             type string;
>           }
>         }
>       }
>     }
>   }
> }
>
> If both "leaf" data nodes are instantiated (XML encoding) as part of <rpc> for "foo", does <x> come before or after <y> (in document order)?

Augmented-in nodes come after other nodes.



Maybe this is an implementation convention, but the RFC says they are encoded in any order.


You are referring to this:

   When a node is augmented, the augmenting child nodes are encoded as
   subelements to the augmented node, in any order.

This implies interleaving of augmenting and non-augmenting child nodes within "input" parameters for XML encoding?

Jernej


I’ve always wished there were a way to specify where they’re placed, for readability, but it’s too inconsequential to raise as an issue here.

There is no canonical order defined for any schema nodes.
There is no order at all defined for top-level or augmenting schema nodes.



> Jernej

Kent

Andy
 
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
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<0100017fe4dec66b-298dc5a9-2d75-4a10-b90b-d11553726957-000000@email.amazonses.com> <9a55de3d-c7bc-597a-e1c8-e11f58325049@mg-soft.si> In-Reply-To: <9a55de3d-c7bc-597a-e1c8-e11f58325049@mg-soft.si> From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 08:16:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jernej Tuljak Cc: Kent Watsen , NETMOD Working Group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000074e7b05dbd59e94" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] RPC input parameter definition order (uses augment) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2022 15:16:56 -0000 --000000000000074e7b05dbd59e94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 4, 2022 at 4:48 AM Jernej Tuljak wrote: > On 01/04/2022 15:49, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 4:24 AM Kent Watsen wrote: > >> >> Hi Jernej, >> >> > RFC7950, 7.14.4. says: >> > >> > Input parameters are encoded as child XML elements to the rpc node'= s >> > XML element, in the same order as they are defined within the "inpu= t" >> > statement. >> > >> > For the following model: >> > >> > module b { >> > namespace "b:uri"; >> > prefix b; >> > >> > grouping params { >> > container params { >> > leaf x { >> > type string; >> > } >> > } >> > } >> > >> > rpc foo { >> > input { >> > uses params { >> > augment params { >> > leaf y { >> > type string; >> > } >> > } >> > } >> > } >> > } >> > } >> > >> > If both "leaf" data nodes are instantiated (XML encoding) as part of >> for "foo", does come before or after (in document order)? >> >> Augmented-in nodes come after other nodes. >> >> > > Maybe this is an implementation convention, but the RFC says they are > encoded in any order. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-7.17.2 > > > You are referring to this: > > When a node is augmented, the augmenting child nodes are encoded as > subelements to the augmented node, in any order. > > This implies interleaving of augmenting and non-augmenting child nodes > within "input" parameters for XML encoding? > > There is no data node order defined except in 4 places: - rpc or action input (just the child nodes or all descendants?) - rpc or action output (just the child nodes or all descendants?) - ordered by user applies to list and leaf-list entries (not the nodes within a list, just the list entries themselves) - list key leafs are encoded in key-stmt order, before other list child nodes. This is true even if the list is affected by previous 3 rules (but this is not specified) It is not clear if the phrase "in any order" (appearing about a dozen times= ) is in addition to these rules or instead of them. What about an 'anyxml' or 'anydata' for a node? Since it is a terminal node, it could be interpreted that it is ordered, but it is converted to regular nodes when applied to a datastore. Andy Jernej > > > I=E2=80=99ve always wished there were a way to specify where they=E2=80= =99re placed, for >> readability, but it=E2=80=99s too inconsequential to raise as an issue h= ere. > > > There is no canonical order defined for any schema nodes. > There is no order at all defined for top-level or augmenting schema nodes= . > > >> >> > Jernej >> >> Kent >> > > Andy > > >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >> > > --000000000000074e7b05dbd59e94 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Apr 4, 2022 at 4:48 AM Jernej= Tuljak <jernej.tuljak@mg-so= ft.si> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 01/04/2022 15:49, Andy Bierman wrote:
=20


On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 4:24 AM Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net> wrote:

Hi Jernej,

> RFC7950, 7.14.4. says:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Input parameters are encoded as child XML ele= ments to the rpc node's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 XML element, in the same order as they are de= fined within the "input"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 statement.
>
> For the following model:
>
> module b {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0namespace "b:uri";
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0prefix b;
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0grouping params {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0container params {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf x {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type string;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0rpc foo {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0input {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0uses params {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0augment params {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf y {
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type string= ;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0}
> }
>
> If both "leaf" data nodes are instantiated (XML encoding) as part of <rpc> for "foo", does <= x> come before or after <y> (in document order)?

Augmented-in nodes come after other nodes.



Maybe this is an implementation convention, but the RFC says they are encoded in any order.


You are referring to this:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 When a node is augmented, the augmenting child nodes are e= ncoded as
=C2=A0=C2=A0 subelements to the augmented node, in any order.

This implies interleaving of augmenting and non-augmenting child nodes within "input" parameters for XML encoding?


There is no data node order = defined except in 4 places:
=C2=A0 - rpc or action input (just th= e child nodes or all descendants?)
=C2=A0 - rpc or action output= =C2=A0 (just the child nodes or all descendants?)
=C2=A0 - ordere= d by user applies to list and leaf-list entries
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (no= t the nodes within a list, just the list entries themselves)
=C2= =A0 - list key leafs are encoded in key-stmt order, before other list child= nodes.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is true even if the list is affected b= y previous 3 rules (but this is not specified)

It = is not clear if the phrase "in any order" (appearing about a doze= n times)
is in addition to these rules or instead of them.
<= div>
What about an 'anyxml' or=C2=A0 'anydata'= ; for a <config> node?
Since it is a terminal node, it coul= d be interpreted that it is ordered,
but it is converted to regul= ar nodes when applied to a datastore.


Andy



Jernej


I=E2=80=99ve always wished there were a way to specify where th= ey=E2=80=99re placed, for readability, but it=E2=80=99s too inconsequential t= o raise as an issue here.

There is no canonical order defined for any schema nodes.
There is no order at all defined for top-level or augmenting schema nodes.



> Jernej

Kent

Andy
=C2=A0
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s=default; t=1649142834; bh=x429wzn/SwpbUanSLiLeSu2WHkpCsZEZeygVdHT6iWI=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=V6VXq2YtN3XTvxUuOj4R7ViucrRCRj8cbMB8RHJBLmAiD19DURzxGvcMs6wwB7YCM PjtIq5rDCtfWad+kJ5bcDSqXLEkp3hp7uIhCKE92XdVKlXNmEgaUmtOXuh3ebVOYuJ DcxvZb6DUUkVLAu8Y81jOOcZBHcKwGpxFviDYm3TpsiX37igK9e3bGMsejQkLQt68P xl3vpARPx70Su8TldjzfdMixL7CaH02HbYNwwTJsE98g5+jdFZfiFVl8U40P9FAjRV AgZXB3IYQI1Z5AwH7Dwl6oDPNGFtKYtUdfHUyKJgp9WWEq7tH1Lx4/M7S/QCW1YcVX BCy7v3o9YwaBA== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------TO4HDNEs99cw8QPDsDed0Aon" Message-ID: <8c9d205b-0a5a-bc37-6f8e-d683cb4e0477@mg-soft.si> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 09:13:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Andy Bierman Cc: Kent Watsen , NETMOD Working Group References: <3740e8e7-5e90-f2e2-b252-0dd42690f71c@mg-soft.si> <0100017fe4dec66b-298dc5a9-2d75-4a10-b90b-d11553726957-000000@email.amazonses.com> <9a55de3d-c7bc-597a-e1c8-e11f58325049@mg-soft.si> From: Jernej Tuljak In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] RPC input parameter definition order (uses augment) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 07:14:05 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------TO4HDNEs99cw8QPDsDed0Aon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 04/04/2022 17:16, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2022 at 4:48 AM Jernej Tuljak > wrote: > > On 01/04/2022 15:49, Andy Bierman wrote: >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 4:24 AM Kent Watsen wrote: >> >> >> Hi Jernej, >> >> > RFC7950, 7.14.4. says: >> > >> >    Input parameters are encoded as child XML elements to >> the rpc node's >> >    XML element, in the same order as they are defined >> within the "input" >> >    statement. >> > >> > For the following model: >> > >> > module b { >> >   namespace "b:uri"; >> >   prefix b; >> > >> >   grouping params { >> >     container params { >> >       leaf x { >> >         type string; >> >       } >> >     } >> >   } >> > >> >   rpc foo { >> >     input { >> >       uses params { >> >         augment params { >> >           leaf y { >> >             type string; >> >           } >> >         } >> >       } >> >     } >> >   } >> > } >> > >> > If both "leaf" data nodes are instantiated (XML encoding) >> as part of for "foo", does come before or after >> (in document order)? >> >> Augmented-in nodes come after other nodes. >> >> >> >> Maybe this is an implementation convention, but the RFC says they >> are encoded in any order. >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-7.17.2 >> > > You are referring to this: > >    When a node is augmented, the augmenting child nodes are encoded as >    subelements to the augmented node, in any order. > > This implies interleaving of augmenting and non-augmenting child > nodes within "input" parameters for XML encoding? > > > There is no data node order defined except in 4 places: >   - rpc or action input (just the child nodes or all descendants?) >   - rpc or action output  (just the child nodes or all descendants?) >   - ordered by user applies to list and leaf-list entries >     (not the nodes within a list, just the list entries themselves) >   - list key leafs are encoded in key-stmt order, before other list > child nodes. >     This is true even if the list is affected by previous 3 rules (but > this is not specified) Additionally, there are interleaving rules for list and leaf-list entries.    The XML elements representing    list entries MAY be interleaved with elements for siblings of the    list, unless the list defines RPC or action input or output    parameters.    The XML elements    representing leaf-list entries MAY be interleaved with elements for    siblings of the leaf-list, unless the leaf-list defines RPC or action    input or output parameters. Until augmentation comes along? > > It is not clear if the phrase "in any order" (appearing about a dozen > times) > is in addition to these rules or instead of them. I'm not convinced of your interpretation of "in any order" in text you were originally referring to (and I later quoted). No matter how many times I read that, the "in any order" there only becomes relevant if there is more than one augmenting child present - to me, the intention behind that text was to handle multiple augments targeting the same node, not to introduce interleaving with non-augmenting children. There should be text present in that section clarifying what that sentence means in contexts where order matters. > > What about an 'anyxml' or  'anydata' for a node? > Since it is a terminal node, it could be interpreted that it is ordered, > but it is converted to regular nodes when applied to a datastore. The way I see it, only the node representing the node is an input/output parameter. The content is an opaque blob of data. No different to a leaf of type binary, which contains bytes of an XML document. With such ambiguity in the RFC it would not be surprising if implementations chose to ignore these rules entirely and just accepted RPC payloads with arbitrary order of their content, even for the cases where things are somewhat clear. Or hope that all other implementations follow the same implementation convention. Jernej > > > Andy > > > > Jernej > >> >> I’ve always wished there were a way to specify where they’re >> placed, for readability, but it’s too inconsequential to >> raise as an issue here. >> >> >> There is no canonical order defined for any schema nodes. >> There is no order at all defined for top-level or augmenting >> schema nodes. >> >> >> >> > Jernej >> >> Kent >> >> >> Andy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >> > --------------TO4HDNEs99cw8QPDsDed0Aon Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 04/04/2022 17:16, Andy Bierman wrote:


On Mon, Apr 4, 2022 at 4:48 AM Jernej Tuljak <jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si> wrote:
On 01/04/2022 15:49, Andy Bierman wrote:


On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 4:24 AM Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net> wrote:

Hi Jernej,

> RFC7950, 7.14.4. says:
>
>    Input parameters are encoded as child XML elements to the rpc node's
>    XML element, in the same order as they are defined within the "input"
>    statement.
>
> For the following model:
>
> module b {
>   namespace "b:uri";
>   prefix b;
>
>   grouping params {
>     container params {
>       leaf x {
>         type string;
>       }
>     }
>   }
>
>   rpc foo {
>     input {
>       uses params {
>         augment params {
>           leaf y {
>             type string;
>           }
>         }
>       }
>     }
>   }
> }
>
> If both "leaf" data nodes are instantiated (XML encoding) as part of <rpc> for "foo", does <x> come before or after <y> (in document order)?

Augmented-in nodes come after other nodes.



Maybe this is an implementation convention, but the RFC says they are encoded in any order.


You are referring to this:

   When a node is augmented, the augmenting child nodes are encoded as
   subelements to the augmented node, in any order.

This implies interleaving of augmenting and non-augmenting child nodes within "input" parameters for XML encoding?


There is no data node order defined except in 4 places:
  - rpc or action input (just the child nodes or all descendants?)
  - rpc or action output  (just the child nodes or all descendants?)
  - ordered by user applies to list and leaf-list entries
    (not the nodes within a list, just the list entries themselves)
  - list key leafs are encoded in key-stmt order, before other list child nodes.
    This is true even if the list is affected by previous 3 rules (but this is not specified)

Additionally, there are interleaving rules for list and leaf-list entries.

   The XML elements representing
   list entries MAY be interleaved with elements for siblings of the
   list, unless the list defines RPC or action input or output
   parameters.

   The XML elements
   representing leaf-list entries MAY be interleaved with elements for
   siblings of the leaf-list, unless the leaf-list defines RPC or action
   input or output parameters.

Until augmentation comes along?


It is not clear if the phrase "in any order" (appearing about a dozen times)
is in addition to these rules or instead of them.

I'm not convinced of your interpretation of "in any order" in text you were originally referring to (and I later quoted). No matter how many times I read that, the "in any order" there only becomes relevant if there is more than one augmenting child present - to me, the intention behind that text was to handle multiple augments targeting the same node, not to introduce interleaving with non-augmenting children.

There should be text present in that section clarifying what that sentence means in contexts where order matters.


What about an 'anyxml' or  'anydata' for a <config> node?
Since it is a terminal node, it could be interpreted that it is ordered,
but it is converted to regular nodes when applied to a datastore.

The way I see it, only the node representing the <config> node is an input/output parameter. The content is an opaque blob of data. No different to a leaf of type binary, which contains bytes of an XML document.

With such ambiguity in the RFC it would not be surprising if implementations chose to ignore these rules entirely and just accepted RPC payloads with arbitrary order of their content, even for the cases where things are somewhat clear. Or hope that all other implementations follow the same implementation convention.

Jernej



Andy



Jernej


I’ve always wished there were a way to specify where they’re placed, for readability, but it’s too inconsequential to raise as an issue here.

There is no canonical order defined for any schema nodes.
There is no order at all defined for top-level or augmenting schema nodes.



> Jernej

Kent

Andy
 
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod


--------------TO4HDNEs99cw8QPDsDed0Aon-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 00:15:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080073A2191 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 00:15:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mg-soft.si Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xgSA017be1tn for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 00:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galileo.mg-soft.si (gate.mg-soft.si [212.30.73.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A953A2192 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 00:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.222] (tp-x61t.mg-soft.si [10.0.0.222]) by galileo.mg-soft.si (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6024C401147; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 09:14:58 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 galileo.mg-soft.si B6024C401147 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mg-soft.si; s=default; t=1649142898; bh=I+DkudKZ5ERQjIo/rtEhmnLXENh/qASTxaMVCBnowFY=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=cHLhq9fQhJsmwUek+SVbc5FpssgL9XYVAwwsyR1bvKKqj9WH0LS1EmqEsMVxoWD1p buHkgml98baX+QEBMdnaLL62YTmujwb2hbZHs96vDz8TORvYI5ZYrXOQFxVfgA7y5t JE29UnfDlYpsikn1Bnbf/5G3wBfH9FFJoNDBLh29RLVRATOCwwdVl/jR1DKVkCNEgY FQazagGBf1fqj/TfzngLPb1TGT3IyAgbo3njkZis/voo3w18/MBFRKplF0Xw1/bxjL MT5bqiEVRmmS5pPsGHSppNtKqNd747cwTsHUUZ9FA+NDXXRGSt/Ke/PofDrT5abjqv aFucvEO1JS3pw== Message-ID: <0ec18689-0e95-945f-0c5a-5c4c4d0b5d70@mg-soft.si> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 09:14:58 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Robert Varga , Andy Bierman , Kent Watsen Cc: NETMOD Working Group References: <3740e8e7-5e90-f2e2-b252-0dd42690f71c@mg-soft.si> <0100017fe4dec66b-298dc5a9-2d75-4a10-b90b-d11553726957-000000@email.amazonses.com> <9a55de3d-c7bc-597a-e1c8-e11f58325049@mg-soft.si> <31192d86-bd73-9708-b96b-63f1bb291024@hq.sk> From: Jernej Tuljak In-Reply-To: <31192d86-bd73-9708-b96b-63f1bb291024@hq.sk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] RPC input parameter definition order (uses augment) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 07:15:06 -0000 On 05/04/2022 00:34, Robert Varga wrote: > > On 04/04/2022 13:48, Jernej Tuljak wrote: >>>     > If both "leaf" data nodes are instantiated (XML encoding) as >>>     part of for "foo", does come before or after (in >>>     document order)? >>> >>>     Augmented-in nodes come after other nodes. >>> >>> >>> >>> Maybe this is an implementation convention, but the RFC says they >>> are encoded in any order. >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-7.17.2 >>> >> >> You are referring to this: >> >>     When a node is augmented, the augmenting child nodes are encoded as >>     subelements to the augmented node, in any order. >> >> This implies interleaving of augmenting and non-augmenting child >> nodes within "input" parameters for XML encoding? > > Yes. There is no semantic difference in directly-defined on augmenting > nodes, especially in 'uses/augment' case -- they share the same > namespace, so at the document level (i.e. effective model) there is no > difference between the two. > > Any ordering should be treated as an implementation artifact. In > particular this declaration: > > rpc foo { >   grouping foo { >     container foo { >       leaf foo { >         type string; >       } >     } >   } > >   input { >     uses foo { >       augment foo { >         leaf bar { >           type uint8; >         } >       } >     } >   } > } > > is completely equivalent to: > > rpc foo { >   input { >     container foo { >       leaf bar { >         type uint8; >       } >       leaf foo { >         type string; >       } >     } >   } > } > > The presence of the intermediate grouping is a pure module-internal > modeling detail. I believe introducing/removing the grouping is a > non-breaking change as per RFC6020 (if memory serves right). Module updating rules state this:    o  Any set of data definition nodes may be replaced with another set       of syntactically and semantically equivalent nodes.  For example,       a set of leafs may be replaced by a "uses" statement of a grouping       with the same leafs. and this:    In statements that have any data definition statements as    substatements, those data definition substatements MUST NOT be    reordered. Can you state that your second example may be rewritten into your first one while retaining semantic equivalence? For the second example, it is clear that XML encoding for that container imposes ordering on and (in that order), for the first, this is no longer true. Jernej > > Regards, > Robert From nobody Tue Apr 5 02:18:02 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6083A22AB for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 02:18:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hq.sk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RvolAGbbWolC for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 02:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.hq.sk (hq.sk [81.89.59.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 986B73A22B5 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 02:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.4.36] (46.229.239.158.host.vnet.sk [46.229.239.158]) by mail.hq.sk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 23C63246794; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 11:17:50 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=hq.sk; s=mail; t=1649150270; bh=OqOiNxQziFLUTP7quIGVu+SalMCgF7yxcZnuWKYuv50=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=PRoU6ZZNJzNWHra8jiD+a2yGDtyo4s2+hJ/67xYnRZZBby0Y4Mvw+Og8SJrlsPSZH my5kWCOtkwBOY8Ibhh4M2TiswNbpyR2ov+t952zX3fSAqIN1UgHjRqPvGNIQFjebzP CRb4TEEf0jy4y5SYP1Jw+ZnRDF1LKHGavhwaCJ2U= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 11:17:49 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Jernej Tuljak , Andy Bierman , Kent Watsen Cc: NETMOD Working Group References: <3740e8e7-5e90-f2e2-b252-0dd42690f71c@mg-soft.si> <0100017fe4dec66b-298dc5a9-2d75-4a10-b90b-d11553726957-000000@email.amazonses.com> <9a55de3d-c7bc-597a-e1c8-e11f58325049@mg-soft.si> <31192d86-bd73-9708-b96b-63f1bb291024@hq.sk> <0ec18689-0e95-945f-0c5a-5c4c4d0b5d70@mg-soft.si> From: Robert Varga In-Reply-To: <0ec18689-0e95-945f-0c5a-5c4c4d0b5d70@mg-soft.si> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------13sZq9HFbCg8aAhDXZExo0HR" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] RPC input parameter definition order (uses augment) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 09:18:01 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------13sZq9HFbCg8aAhDXZExo0HR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------CejNpN0KYQeS5cAT046x0tLv"; protected-headers="v1" From: Robert Varga To: Jernej Tuljak , Andy Bierman , Kent Watsen Cc: NETMOD Working Group Message-ID: Subject: Re: [netmod] RPC input parameter definition order (uses augment) References: <3740e8e7-5e90-f2e2-b252-0dd42690f71c@mg-soft.si> <0100017fe4dec66b-298dc5a9-2d75-4a10-b90b-d11553726957-000000@email.amazonses.com> <9a55de3d-c7bc-597a-e1c8-e11f58325049@mg-soft.si> <31192d86-bd73-9708-b96b-63f1bb291024@hq.sk> <0ec18689-0e95-945f-0c5a-5c4c4d0b5d70@mg-soft.si> In-Reply-To: <0ec18689-0e95-945f-0c5a-5c4c4d0b5d70@mg-soft.si> --------------CejNpN0KYQeS5cAT046x0tLv Content-Type: text/plain; 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name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEE9xJg9S8sgC+6qlK6U310SwoeP0UFAmJMCT0FAwAAAAAACgkQU310SwoeP0Ua jA/+I/ZFvTB7iTzAw6ncZ3e0sxJycbf2wpRfh7ALAnVaIUfb0Fo+t/M1ZwRgRR5PONupZ0oYlJgf dDi1SmU+SK9myY4EwLyftJGqbt37/k8ow9d7ZXODN57Gd16TKSaAIhq0Nct63A8DKwoGyEph5+nq qST4ULSd8ZnV86GAD0vO2mEcq7MhXI9W9Ux9rlLOaRAXjTi4hygvSxDvuYsDuPRSM3eCrHCxHIxg GdcQyw9+0gOSD438BEJNslur0cHFYQkjY2zFjXJG1vUEIbjJrQ3hNFNLJTLYaqHixCk3B+V8wOKC MfRhLxTxyfcYB51rqfbgGr59Fs676D4UGUV/CMWYDJAR82udWcnUO0qbVYimDg5OArKiUqCF1F33 gwkn1GNw4Xs8vaxbGZKPRW+bvVi7JyPfoepqrzGn+A5DMPtlzFuCnLWcqv+OCvoY93b4kl1eJ/aL ou+4Mh25dQtZs5MGiz7Cuozf6iifGU/bPY4etzVYlbTjkUvr6RTOj45wzjnD8ChH4f1J7lmeVH0A 6r6wAz3JjAi5bsYrJ+NKtfnkvGpD6DGpwGwGveyrvrF+APFq6DYEbIH9NQVL4QalCJPyu36AgDAA dFWhEuHL1DFxTNpaN6i9Qs3wIo1RImiMPkWN1pFpDxbR4/j6c3O2A+SAs+sIgdALHpnGyMvSZbkG 1ew= =ogR4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------13sZq9HFbCg8aAhDXZExo0HR-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 06:33:39 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D253A0659; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 06:33:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3z4gJOHC8lhQ; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 06:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7427D3A0658; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 06:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (047-026-251-217.res.spectrum.com [47.26.251.217]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 561567D03A; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 13:32:47 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.80.82.1.1\)) From: Christian Hopps In-Reply-To: <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 09:32:46 -0400 Cc: Christian Hopps , tom petch , "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 13:33:38 -0000 If they are new leaf values why not use the correct no-zone variant, = what's the harm in doing it right? It has a nice side effect of = basically restricting the base spec zone values to no-zone only. :) Thanks, Chris. [wg member] > On Apr 4, 2022, at 12:30, Acee Lindem (acee) = wrote: >=20 > In the MIB, the base types don't include the zone - = https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4001.txt >=20 > It was very unfortunate that the YANG IP addresses included the zone = in the base types.=20 >=20 > Tom - I think it would be hard to find an author where including the = zone was a conscious decision.=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Acee >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 4/4/22, 11:55 AM, "tom petch" wrote: >=20 > From: Acee Lindem (acee) > Sent: 04 April 2022 15:58 >=20 > Hi Tom, +Juergen, netmod WG, >=20 > I think the question you ought to be asking is whether the base = IPv4 and IPv6 address types should be modified to NOT include the zone = and the zone versions should be added as a separate YANG type. >=20 > The RFC 6991 is under revision now: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis/ >=20 > However, I'm not sure if the painful backward compatibility = discussions could be overcome. We'd also have to admit that it was a = big mistake to include the zone in the base addresses. In any case, I = don't think we just start using the no-zone types when the base = addresses types are used everywhere. >=20 > >=20 > Well, there are plenty of uses of the no-zone types as well, so = some authors, some YANG doctors, have made the conscious choice to use = them. I cannot do a search just now but I see no-zone in the dhc and = I2NSF WG I-Ds, and there are others. >=20 > Also, some authors want the zone information as part of their leaf. >=20 > Tom Petch >=20 > Thanks, > Acee >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 4/4/22, 7:11 AM, "Lsr on behalf of tom petch" = wrote: >=20 > I assume that this is a refresh while waiting for ospf.yang to = wind its way through the system >=20 > I wonder if the ip address should be the no-zone variant from = RFC6991 - I never know the answer to that so keep asking. >=20 > Some time the contact needs updating to https://datatracker and = the TLP to 'Revised' >=20 > Tom Petch >=20 > ________________________________________ > From: Lsr on behalf of = internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: 07 March 2022 03:14 > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: lsr@ietf.org > Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: = draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line = Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the = IETF. >=20 > Title : YANG Model for OSPFv3 Extended LSAs > Authors : Acee Lindem > Sharmila Palani > Yingzhen Qu > Filename : = draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt > Pages : 29 > Date : 2022-03-06 >=20 > Abstract: > This document defines a YANG data model augmenting the IETF = OSPF YANG > model to provide support for OSPFv3 Link State Advertisement = (LSA) > Extensibility as defined in RFC 8362. OSPFv3 Extended LSAs = provide > extensible TLV-based LSAs for the base LSA types defined in = RFC 5340. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang/ >=20 > There is also an htmlized version available at: > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-y= ang-10 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yan= g-10 >=20 >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at = rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > 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YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHNyDQogICAgPiANCiAgICA+ICAgICAgICBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KICAgID4gICAgICAgIExzciBtYWlsaW5nIGxp c3QNCiAgICA+ICAgICAgICBMc3JAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCiAgICA+ICAgICAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5p ZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2xzcg0KICAgID4gDQogICAgPiANCiAgICA+IF9fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQogICAgPiBMc3IgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0DQogICAgPiBMc3JAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCiAgICA+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHNyDQoNCg0K From nobody Tue Apr 5 07:47:27 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 386FE3A099D; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 07:47:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bIDXsGDkNXiu; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 07:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 395A93A097C; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 07:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (047-026-251-217.res.spectrum.com [47.26.251.217]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2E95E7D03A; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 14:47:18 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.80.82.1.1\)) From: Christian Hopps In-Reply-To: <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 10:47:17 -0400 Cc: Christian Hopps , tom petch , "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 14:47:24 -0000 > On Apr 5, 2022, at 09:48, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: >=20 > [wg-member] >=20 > The thing is that most of the existing RFCs use inet:ip-address rather = inet:ip-address-no-zone. It would be better to if we could fix = inet:ip-address in RFC 6991 BIS to not include the zone similar to what = was done in the MIB (RFC 4001). However, we're getting the passive = aggressive treatment on this point.=20 >=20 > If the netmod WG doesn't have the integrity and strength to fix RFC = 6991 in the BIS version, we should consider changing the OSPF and IS-IS = base specifications before publication to use inet:ip-address-no-zone.=20= [as wg-member] I think we should do the right thing in our (LSR) modules no matter = what, again, what harm does it do to get it right in the modules under = LSR WGs direct control? The netmod change is a much larger action with a large blast radius (not = saying it's wrong), and perhaps most importantly is also outside of LSR = WG control. :) Thanks, Chris. [wg-member] > Thanks, > Acee=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 4/5/22, 9:33 AM, "Christian Hopps" = wrote: >=20 > If they are new leaf values why not use the correct no-zone = variant, what's the harm in doing it right? It has a nice side effect of = basically restricting the base spec zone values to no-zone only. :) >=20 > Thanks, > Chris. > [wg member] >=20 >> On Apr 4, 2022, at 12:30, Acee Lindem (acee) = wrote: >>=20 >> In the MIB, the base types don't include the zone - = https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4001.txt >>=20 >> It was very unfortunate that the YANG IP addresses included the zone = in the base types.=20 >>=20 >> Tom - I think it would be hard to find an author where including the = zone was a conscious decision.=20 >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Acee >>=20 >> On 4/4/22, 11:55 AM, "tom petch" wrote: >>=20 >> From: Acee Lindem (acee) >> Sent: 04 April 2022 15:58 >>=20 >> Hi Tom, +Juergen, netmod WG, >>=20 >> I think the question you ought to be asking is whether the base = IPv4 and IPv6 address types should be modified to NOT include the zone = and the zone versions should be added as a separate YANG type. >>=20 >> The RFC 6991 is under revision now: >>=20 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis/ >>=20 >> However, I'm not sure if the painful backward compatibility = discussions could be overcome. We'd also have to admit that it was a = big mistake to include the zone in the base addresses. In any case, I = don't think we just start using the no-zone types when the base = addresses types are used everywhere. >>=20 >> >>=20 >> Well, there are plenty of uses of the no-zone types as well, so = some authors, some YANG doctors, have made the conscious choice to use = them. I cannot do a search just now but I see no-zone in the dhc and = I2NSF WG I-Ds, and there are others. >>=20 >> Also, some authors want the zone information as part of their leaf. >>=20 >> Tom Petch >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Acee >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 4/4/22, 7:11 AM, "Lsr on behalf of tom petch" = wrote: >>=20 >> I assume that this is a refresh while waiting for ospf.yang to = wind its way through the system >>=20 >> I wonder if the ip address should be the no-zone variant from = RFC6991 - I never know the answer to that so keep asking. >>=20 >> Some time the contact needs updating to https://datatracker and = the TLP to 'Revised' >>=20 >> Tom Petch >>=20 >> ________________________________________ >> From: Lsr on behalf of = internet-drafts@ietf.org >> Sent: 07 March 2022 03:14 >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> Cc: lsr@ietf.org >> Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: = draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt >>=20 >>=20 >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line = Internet-Drafts directories. >> This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the = IETF. >>=20 >> Title : YANG Model for OSPFv3 Extended LSAs >> Authors : Acee Lindem >> Sharmila Palani >> Yingzhen Qu >> Filename : = draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt >> Pages : 29 >> Date : 2022-03-06 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> This document defines a YANG data model augmenting the IETF = OSPF YANG >> model to provide support for OSPFv3 Link State Advertisement = (LSA) >> Extensibility as defined in RFC 8362. OSPFv3 Extended LSAs = provide >> extensible TLV-based LSAs for the base LSA types defined in = RFC 5340. >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang/ >>=20 >> There is also an htmlized version available at: >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-y= ang-10 >>=20 >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yan= g-10 >>=20 >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at = rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsr mailing list >> Lsr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsr mailing list >> Lsr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsr mailing 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: +TdWSKjrrfdspEwwq5ON+VPCQ7DPQ8uo3q7hBb8s/H7ker1HoVIcV0wXl2Pi+nOKn6x8Gbno+NGDSJEQD01PGRlDFTcVSVYwFd5GOtJnxcE= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DU0P190MB1860 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 15:36:58 -0000 On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 01:48:25PM +0000, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > [wg-member] > > The thing is that most of the existing RFCs use inet:ip-address rather inet:ip-address-no-zone. It would be better to if we could fix inet:ip-address in RFC 6991 BIS to not include the zone similar to what was done in the MIB (RFC 4001). However, we're getting the passive aggressive treatment on this point. > You either assume that all existing uses of inet:ip-address (inside the IETF and outside the IETF) are wrong or you are willing to break all the existing correct uses of inet:ip-address so that the type matches your expectations. The existing YANG update rules are pretty clear that changing the semantics of definitions is not allowed. Hence, all the WG could do is to deprecate ip-address and to introduce ip-address-zone. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Apr 5 08:44:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F043A0BD4; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 08:44:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.606 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.606 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=MEXBSYwB; 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Tue, 05 Apr 2022 10:03:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <20220405153644.w5faspao6qkbq337@anna> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 10:03:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Cc: =?UTF-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bd9b7605dbeb39ef" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 17:03:43 -0000 --000000000000bd9b7605dbeb39ef Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 8:45 AM Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 4/5/22, 11:37 AM, "Lsr on behalf of J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw= =C3=A4lder" < > lsr-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> > wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 01:48:25PM +0000, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > > [wg-member] > > > > The thing is that most of the existing RFCs use inet:ip-address > rather inet:ip-address-no-zone. It would be better to if we could fix > inet:ip-address in RFC 6991 BIS to not include the zone similar to what w= as > done in the MIB (RFC 4001). However, we're getting the passive aggressive > treatment on this point. > > > > You either assume that all existing uses of inet:ip-address (inside > the IETF and outside the IETF) are wrong or you are willing to break > all the existing correct uses of inet:ip-address so that the type > matches your expectations. > > The existing YANG update rules are pretty clear that changing the > semantics of definitions is not allowed. Hence, all the WG could do > is to deprecate ip-address and to introduce ip-address-zone. > > The best outcome would be to fix ip-address to not include the zone, > introduce ip-address-zone, and deprecate ip-address-no-zone. My take all > the is that all the existing usages do not require zone and this would be= a > fix as opposed to a change. > > I don't think this will harm our implementations. The type is still string. The pattern will change but that is handled by a library. Whatever pattern is used will get handled the same way. The same problem exists for 'date' and 'date-no-zone' types, but they are not used very much. But... Since import-without-revision is used most of the time, a module importing ietf-inet-types will get what? Very implementation-specific, that's what. Maybe both versions of ip-address present in the same server, maybe not. Acee > > /js > Andy > > -- > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Brem= en gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German= y > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000bd9b7605dbeb39ef Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 8:45 AM Acee L= indem (acee) <acee=3D40cis= co.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:


=EF=BB=BFOn 4/5/22, 11:37 AM, "Lsr on behalf of J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6n= w=C3=A4lder" <lsr-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university= .de> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 01:48:25PM +0000, Acee Lindem (acee) = wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > [wg-member]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The thing is that most of the existing RFCs use inet:ip-= address rather inet:ip-address-no-zone. It would be better to if we could f= ix inet:ip-address in RFC 6991 BIS to not include the zone similar to what = was done in the MIB (RFC 4001). However, we're getting the passive aggr= essive treatment on this point.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 You either assume that all existing uses of inet:ip-address (= inside
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IETF and outside the IETF) are wrong or you are willing t= o break
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 all the existing correct uses of inet:ip-address so that the = type
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 matches your expectations.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The existing YANG update rules are pretty clear that changing= the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 semantics of definitions is not allowed. Hence, all the WG co= uld do
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is to deprecate ip-address and to introduce ip-address-zone.<= br>
The best outcome would be to fix ip-address to not include the zone, introd= uce ip-address-zone, and deprecate ip-address-no-zone. My take all the is t= hat all the existing usages do not require zone and this would be a fix as = opposed to a change.


I don't think this will harm our i= mplementations.
The type is still string. The pattern will change= but that is handled by a library.
Whatever pattern is used will = get handled the same way.

The same problem exists = for 'date' and 'date-no-zone' types,
but they are= not used very much.

But...

Since import-without-revision is used most of the time,
a modu= le importing ietf-inet-types will get what?
Very implementation-s= pecific, that's what.
Maybe both versions of ip-address prese= nt in the same server, maybe not.


<= br>
Acee

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 /js


Andy
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Camp= us Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lsr mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lsr@ietf.or= g
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr=

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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My take all > > the is that all the existing usages do not require zone and this would be a > > fix as opposed to a change. > > > > > I don't think this will harm our implementations. > The type is still string. The pattern will change but that is handled by a > library. > Whatever pattern is used will get handled the same way. Either a zone is allowed to be present or it is not, this does make a difference, its not a cosmetic change. > The same problem exists for 'date' and 'date-no-zone' types, > but they are not used very much. Perhaps we should call types a, b, c, and so on - this may force people to read the descriptions. ;-) /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Apr 5 12:20:56 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F9E3A1036 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 12:20:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ftXdSDyHwOEN for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 12:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x1136.google.com (mail-yw1-x1136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E72083A102B for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2022 12:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1136.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2e64a6b20eeso2892597b3.3 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2022 12:20:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hc9Ao+02ZCqWuJC2IYt7ZjIPz2LwNEkX8tI+XAG0O2s=; b=urznLpflohAaKbVtrGlovlv00cKUZ0MMVdeRdl+RU5aU3k1qsJO4apCFuArqn8Ul6O TB+7OTG5P6enW19bQ2gUNbiuw1ZLxzWm1LS2fyQAWl4nA7tpo8wmHKgvithzYPvMS6hd +kCN4XSqPzsRR2rHLdEJ1lByHmSVccpClGuaMYrUU9csNMOZg59ojaW7UWBgJB9tFijo MO5izzW8yq3ZJzJ9tYKERQzrDm34aiqNVRdojb4aSU753bO7x2nZXABr0EtSyqo6iVUc gbH11XuRFCP5Kpe4bYK1/NFRGtKzRXXXr/w1PUf7ysvjJGx/954o7iM1FR3o6ZrNXgKH P2GA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=hc9Ao+02ZCqWuJC2IYt7ZjIPz2LwNEkX8tI+XAG0O2s=; b=trOt4OdrbNFCJepBJaVWOXt+X1QhDvpWCcA07L3IIEWuFZWT1xLj0vSMtqlTtQTnC6 cAVHZWPiILLReJO/c25Ds3TMWU6VrD8WIBdiFNhADp77GtSiaXjuyRaTgohRELihdRcS rGFNhxX7OC1YkA5nqz/8Ye8Vv3GXrRO4gMXi+J5ibBQlxYQR2HvqbOsU7bIKbELKUXlR X0D1aKiNSjWXM/NblUeCKYfxkc9e0v20C0kuLb3nROg9M37D6UzgpA4aUBXhtM7QJoEZ t4+ZSXRSdynYiZFgtmkeAt1HlV3uL9MHDhre13nHehq08AMCiIkGwY19EUwULCRtIwo/ ahpA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532VUcwHPhaoo4K/dzYnSwna2y6ihJebymDZN2kgHxu37K7pmcAU kf8N0v/9eF4d74WrKlH1ApfwPccZgzLXEmMjYnNPNA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwoqumuJ3ryeE+K8PqSf9k/JOnelykGGt3eRhKBiqa9g5GesgEm7ytcWAqJuraLEsyGiioAKOoDW17y4uMlJTg= X-Received: by 2002:a81:488e:0:b0:2eb:6891:4997 with SMTP id v136-20020a81488e000000b002eb68914997mr4233030ywa.433.1649186447642; Tue, 05 Apr 2022 12:20:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <20220405153644.w5faspao6qkbq337@anna> <20220405190249.chscwo4m4v4l5xoj@anna> In-Reply-To: <20220405190249.chscwo4m4v4l5xoj@anna> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 12:20:36 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= , Andy Bierman , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000061759305dbed24b9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 19:20:54 -0000 --00000000000061759305dbed24b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 12:02 PM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 10:03:25AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > The best outcome would be to fix ip-address to not include the zone, > > > introduce ip-address-zone, and deprecate ip-address-no-zone. My take > all > > > the is that all the existing usages do not require zone and this woul= d > be a > > > fix as opposed to a change. > > > > > > > > I don't think this will harm our implementations. > > The type is still string. The pattern will change but that is handled b= y > a > > library. > > Whatever pattern is used will get handled the same way. > > Either a zone is allowed to be present or it is not, this does make a > difference, its not a cosmetic change. > True. The code will probably accept the pattern then fail trying to use the string. If the client sends the form with a zone. > > > The same problem exists for 'date' and 'date-no-zone' types, > > but they are not used very much. > > Perhaps we should call types a, b, c, and so on - this may force > people to read the descriptions. ;-) > For some reason, the smarter the person, the less likely they are to read any of the documentation before using some software. I call it the "it should work the way I would design it" phenomenon :-) You have to admit that Acee's suggestion is more intuitive than the current definitions. Clearly an NBC change. IMO it is more useful to put some YANG extension magic in these specific typedefs than just bumping a major revision number. This is a great use-case for the version DT. There probably is no solution path where nobody has to change any YANG or any code and everything still works. > > /js > > Andy > -- > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Bremen g= GmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --00000000000061759305dbed24b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 12:02 PM J=C3= =BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at = 10:03:25AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> >
> > The best outcome would be to fix ip-address to not include the zo= ne,
> > introduce ip-address-zone, and deprecate ip-address-no-zone. My t= ake all
> > the is that all the existing usages do not require zone and this = would be a
> > fix as opposed to a change.
> >
> >
> I don't think this will harm our implementations.
> The type is still string. The pattern will change but that is handled = by a
> library.
> Whatever pattern is used will get handled the same way.

Either a zone is allowed to be present or it is not, this does make a
difference, its not a cosmetic change.

=
True. The code will probably accept the pattern then fail tr= ying to use the string.
If the client sends the form with a zone.=


=C2=A0

> The same problem exists for 'date' and 'date-no-zone' = types,
> but they are not used very much.

Perhaps we should call types a, b, c, and so on - this may force
people to read the descriptions. ;-)

Fo= r some reason, the smarter the=C2=A0person, the less likely they are to
read any of the documentation before using some software.=C2=A0
I call it the "it should work the way I would design it" ph= enomenon :-)

You have to admit that Acee's sug= gestion is more intuitive than the current
definitions.

Clearly an NBC change.=C2=A0
IMO it is more usefu= l to put some YANG extension magic in these specific typedefs
tha= n just bumping a major revision number. This is a great use-case for the ve= rsion DT.

There probably is no solution path where= nobody has to change any YANG or any code
and everything still w= orks.

=C2=A0

/js


Andy
=C2=A0
--
J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
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--00000000000061759305dbed24b9-- From nobody Wed Apr 6 11:35:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16E83A0E77; Wed, 6 Apr 2022 11:34:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <164927009861.8815.15001164995067880024@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2022 11:34:58 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-27.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2022 18:34:59 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : A YANG Data Model for Syslog Configuration Authors : Joe Clarke Mahesh Jethanandani Clyde Wildes Kiran Koushik Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-27.txt Pages : 41 Date : 2022-04-05 Abstract: This document defines a YANG data model for the configuration of a syslog process. It is intended this model be used by vendors who implement syslog in their systems. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-27 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-27 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Wed Apr 6 11:43:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 621673A0E87 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2022 11:43:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.606 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.606 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN9PR11MB5371.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 94ce6514-8ba2-4771-00b8-08da17fd6339 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Apr 2022 18:43:48.4084 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /lFTli1fvVV+qSDS5hADnTVE+4/lOWpywOuQrk+4z0va5ps7RVWKpdmzYWURsyvdd71DTAE8P6nt7wx0oqWZ1A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CH0PR11MB5537 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.227.253, xfe-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-8.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-27.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2022 18:43:58 -0000 Thanks to Mahesh and his build system, we have resurrected this draft=0A= from the archive.=0A= =0A= This new -27 revision does the following:=0A= =0A= * Modernizes the references=0A= =0A= * Fixes some linting errors in both the doc and the YANG module=0A= =0A= * Changes the use of the old certificate and private-key groupings from=0A= the keystore draft to use=0A= crypto-types:asymmetric-key-pair-with-certs-grouping which I believe is=0A= the intended new grouping (as such I made a slight wording change to the=0A= description of the cert container)=0A= =0A= * Validates examples=0A= =0A= * Canonically formats YANG=0A= =0A= It's been a while since this draft was discussed or reviewed, so we'd=0A= like to request a good review from the WG to see if there are any other=0A= pending issues before moving to LC.=0A= =0A= Thanks.=0A= =0A= Joe=0A= =0A= On 4/6/22 14:36, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:=0A= > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories.=0A= > This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF.=0A= >=0A= > Title : A YANG Data Model for Syslog Configuration=0A= > Authors : Joe Clarke=0A= > Mahesh Jethanandani=0A= > Clyde Wildes=0A= > Kiran Koushik=0A= > Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-27.txt=0A= > Pages : 41=0A= > Date : 2022-04-05=0A= >=0A= > Abstract:=0A= > This document defines a YANG data model for the configuration of a=0A= > syslog process. It is intended this model be used by vendors who=0A= > implement syslog in their systems.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:=0A= > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model/=0A= >=0A= > There is also an htmlized version available at:=0A= > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-27= =0A= >=0A= > A diff from the previous version is available at:=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-27=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-d= rafts=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > netmod mailing list=0A= > netmod@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= >=0A= =0A= From nobody Wed Apr 6 13:59:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B165C3A091B; Wed, 6 Apr 2022 13:59:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.659 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.659 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CTE_8BIT_MISMATCH=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5tJhaB3gGod3; Wed, 6 Apr 2022 13:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfcpa.amsl.com (rfc-editor.org [IPv6:2001:1900:3001:11::31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D057B3A0915; Wed, 6 Apr 2022 13:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfcpa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 499) id 342D8B33A1; Wed, 6 Apr 2022 13:58:56 -0700 (PDT) To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, andy@yumaworks.com From: RFC Errata System Cc: rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org, iesg@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, iana@iana.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20220406205856.342D8B33A1@rfcpa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 13:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] [Errata Verified] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2022 20:59:03 -0000 The following errata report has been verified for RFC8407, "Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of Documents Containing YANG Data Models". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6899 -------------------------------------- Status: Verified Type: Editorial Reported by: Mohamed Boucadair Date Reported: 2022-03-29 Verified by: RFC Editor Section: Appendix A Original Text ------------- o License -- verify that the document contains the Simplified BSD License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines related to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the approved text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at: Corrected Text -------------- o License -- verify that the document contains the Revised BSD License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines related to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the approved text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at: Notes ----- https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/tlp-5/ says: == Note: in prior versions of these provisions, the software license was erroneously called the “Simplified BSD License” rather than the “Revised BSD License”, and many documents that refer to these provisions copied the erroneous name. The IETF Trust corrected the error on September 21, 2021. The license text itself was always that of the Revised BSD License and has not changed. == --VERIFIER NOTES-- Verified per discussion with John Levine and individuals in the netmod WG. “Simplified” is what was used when RFC 8407 was published. However, this RFC is providing guidance for authors and reviewers of future documents. -------------------------------------- RFC8407 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis-20) -------------------------------------- Title : Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of Documents Containing YANG Data Models Publication Date : October 2018 Author(s) : A. 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multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EDA2DD82-106C-4816-9525-B053005C0CCD" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:24:55 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" , Juergen Schoenwaelder To: draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis@ietf.org References: <0100017ec2a73fab-b7e69955-c6ab-496e-a9a4-274780023fd1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017f42af4f30-631592d1-9c88-4478-97e9-6636b5558bad-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20220307161053.old2vgmopuyhxvla@anna> <0100017f8ac7cc70-e9e2dfaf-c726-4853-bc0f-e656bef2f83e-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20220315130137.kpomlykipy2p42lw@anna> <20220322071133.e6oq6neuolzcgvna@anna> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.04.07-54.240.48.95 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 01:25:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EDA2DD82-106C-4816-9525-B053005C0CCD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 This draft has been moved out of the WG. Now in shepherd write-up. Comments: Section 4 is titled "Internet-Specific Derived Types" Should it be something like "Internet Protocol Suite Types"? Many places have "Simplified BSD" should be "Revised BSD" The "description" for "email-address" says: "The canonical format of the domain part of an email-address uses = lowercase US-ASCII characters.". =20 But I don't see a lowercase-restriction in the pattern. =20 Maybe the description could be clarified? Note: `pyang --strict -Werror --canonical = ietf-inet-types@2022-03-22.yang` ietf-inet-types@2022-03-22.yang:551: error: keyword "length" not in = canonical order (see RFC 6020, Section 12) Kent > On Mar 24, 2022, at 1:17 PM, tom petch wrote: >=20 > From: netmod on behalf of J=C3=BCrgen = Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder > Sent: 22 March 2022 07:11 >=20 > So we have the following options: >=20 > a) Leave revision-date to be defined in ietf-yang-revisions. >=20 > b) Define revision-date in ietf-yang-types. >=20 > c) Define a date-no-zone type (derived from the date type) which does > not have the optional time zone offset. >=20 > >=20 > Yes, I like c) for its simplicity and its adequacy >=20 > Tom Petch >=20 >=20 > I am leaning towards option c), having a generic type for a date > without a time zone is the most general type we can provide. If > additional specific revision date semantics are necessary, they can be > provided in ietf-yang-revisions. (Looking at the definition of the > type revision-identifier in RFC 8525, this is really date-no-zone.) >=20 > /js >=20 > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 08:42:31AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: >> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 6:01 AM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder < >> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: >>=20 >>> On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 05:21:01PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: >>>> On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 4:34 PM Kent Watsen >>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> All, >>>>>=20 >>>>> 1) If you provided WGLC comments on this draft, please review the = -12 >>> diff >>>>> < >>> = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-12.txt> = to >>>>> ensure that the updates made are good. >>>>>=20 >>>>> 2) Juergen notes below that he also removed the = "revision-identifier" >>>>> typedef, as it is better >>>>> defined in the YANG versioning module. Any objections? >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>> Sorry for the late comment. >>>> I think Juergen listed one option as "rename to revision-date and = leave >>> it >>>> in this module". >>>> I support this option. >>>>=20 >>>> There is no chance that the revision date format will be changing = any >>> time >>>> soon. >>>> This is useful for general applications because revision date is = widely >>>> used. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The ietf-yang-library module (RFC 8525) currently uses its own >>> definition of revision-identifier. While this module could adopt a >>> common definition, the value of such a change is minor. >>>=20 >>> The question where we place the definition of revision-date is = likely >>> a matter of which role we expect the versioning work to play in the >>> future. I am relatively neutral on the placement. >>>=20 >>>=20 >> Not that important I guess. >> One would think the "date" typedef already in the draft would be = useful, >> but it isn't, and therefore not used. >> There is no typedef for the pattern YYYY-MM-DD. >>=20 >> /js >>>=20 >>=20 >> Andy >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University = Bremen gGmbH >>> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | = Germany >>> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >>>=20 >=20 > -- > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University = Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --Apple-Mail=_EDA2DD82-106C-4816-9525-B053005C0CCD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 This = draft has been moved out of the WG.  Now in shepherd write-up.

Comments:

  • Section 4 is titled = "Internet-Specific Derived Types"
    • Should= it be something like "Internet Protocol Suite Types"?

  • Many places have "Simplified = BSD"
    • should be "Revised BSD"

  • The "description" for "email-address" = says:
    • "The canonical format of the domain part of an = email-address uses lowercase US-ASCII characters.". =  
      • But I don't see a lowercase-restriction in the pattern. =  
      • Maybe = the description could be clarified?

  • Note: `pyang --strict -Werror --canonical ietf-inet-types@2022-03-22.yang`


Kent



On Mar 24, 2022, at 1:17 PM, tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>= wrote:

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of J=C3=BCrgen = Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Sent: 22 March 2022 07:11

So we = have the following options:

a) Leave = revision-date to be defined in ietf-yang-revisions.

b) Define revision-date in ietf-yang-types.

c) Define a date-no-zone type (derived from the date type) = which does
  not have the optional time zone = offset.

<tp>

Yes, I like c) for its simplicity and its adequacy

Tom Petch


I am leaning towards option c), having a generic type for a = date
without a time zone is the most general type we can = provide. If
additional specific revision date semantics = are necessary, they can be
provided in = ietf-yang-revisions. (Looking at the definition of the
type = revision-identifier in RFC 8525, this is really date-no-zone.)

/js

On Tue, Mar = 15, 2022 at 08:42:31AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at = 6:01 AM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <
j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

On Mon, = Mar 14, 2022 at 05:21:01PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at = 4:34 PM Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
wrote:

All,

1) If you provided WGLC comments on this = draft, please review the -12
diff
<
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-b= is-12.txt> to
ensure that the updates = made are good.

2) Juergen notes below that = he also removed the "revision-identifier"
typedef, as it = is better
defined in the YANG versioning module.  Any = objections?


Sorry= for the late comment.
I think Juergen listed one option = as "rename to revision-date and leave
it
in this module".
I support this option.

There is = no chance that the revision date format will be changing any
time
soon.
This is useful for general applications = because revision date is widely
used.


The ietf-yang-library module (RFC = 8525) currently uses its own
definition of = revision-identifier. While this module could adopt a
common = definition, the value of such a change is minor.

The question where we place the definition of revision-date = is likely
a matter of which role we expect the versioning = work to play in the
future. I am relatively neutral on the = placement.


Not = that important I guess.
One would think the "date" typedef = already in the draft would be useful,
but it isn't, and = therefore not used.
There is no typedef for the pattern = YYYY-MM-DD.

/js


Andy



--
J=C3=BCrgen = Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder =             &n= bsp;Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 = Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 =         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


--
J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder =             &n= bsp;Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 = Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 =         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: feVsNcQkeyfO3y9P2ItxWYHyXFYe+otEflMh1KlwzalpccliaMb2UgkTxDV81zxC4qX3luo8rsSRi1WqsOJGTPSuMNKex4a+0ds9Fu8g7hE= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AS8P190MB1910 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 07:13:53 -0000 On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 05:49:26PM -0700, IETF Secretariat wrote: > > The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis has been changed to "WG > Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up" from "Waiting for WG Chair Go-Ahead" by Kent > Watsen: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis/ > Dear chairs, given recent discussions around ip addresses, I am not sure about the consensus and perhaps we should consider to name the new date and time types differently, e.g. date -> date-with-zone date-no-zone -> date time -> time-with-zone time-no-zone -> time to avoid similar discussions in the future and to adopt a naming style where optional elements are reflected in the name instead of using a naming style where the absence of optional parts is reflected in the name. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Apr 7 00:36:18 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB0363A11BE; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:35:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: MghlFGIrFEVRLjOHPSWjFFAGTCeawf6XIpItYGNqljS2PYcYVNAoKdlRPFBD+7eVpdFE6p3HDS/k41W+dKP6+xxmYrsfYYUxU2BW/uRSXsM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB9P190MB1611 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 07:35:07 -0000 Here is roughly what happened: - RFC 6020 (published ~12 years ago) introduced the ip-address type. It included an optional zone index part since zone indexes are necessary in certain situations (e.g., configuring services listening on link-local addresses or clients connecting to services listening on link-local addresses). - RFC 6991 (published ~9 years ago) added the ip-address-no-zone types since people felt that it is useful to also an ip address type without the optional zone part for situations where a zone is not applicable. The name 'ip-address-no-zone' was picked since the name ip-address was already taken. I understand that the names resulting from this evolution of the YANG module confuse people not looking up the type definitions. Let me note that using a type allowing for an optional zone for a leaf that never needs a zone is not a fatal error (its like using an int where a short is sufficient) while using a type not allowing for a zone for a leaf that may need zones is a fatal error (using a short where an int is required) requiring an update of the definition of the leaf to fix. What are our options? a) Do nothing and accept that types are called as they are. b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks modules where zone indexes are meaningful. c) Deprecate the types and create a new module defining new types so that modules can opt-in to use better names. d) Deprecate the -no-zone types and move back to have a single type for IP addresses. Any other options? How are we going to pick between them? /js On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 09:02:23PM +0000, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Jürgen and netmod WG, +IESG, > > It is not just the IETF models that are using the inet:ip-address for the standard IPv4/IPv6 addresses without zones. Every vendor’s native models and the OpenConfig models use the base types and expect the standard IP address notation. If we don’t fix this, it is something that people can point to as another example of the IETF being out of touch with reality. > > I thought about more, and it might make the backward compatibility easier if we just leave the existing ip-address-no-zone, ipv4-address-no-zone, and ipv6-address-no-zone types and add *-zone types for the remote possibility that someone actually wants to include the zone. In the existing RFC 6991 BIS document, we could merely remove the zone from the ip-address, ipv4-address, and ipv6-address types and classify this as we would any other bug fix. While including the zone was the original intent of the base types, this is what those of us who work on software products would classify as a requirements bug. > > Thanks, > Acee > > From: Andy Bierman > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 3:21 PM > To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Andy Bierman , Acee Lindem , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 12:02 PM Jürgen Schönwälder > wrote: > On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 10:03:25AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > The best outcome would be to fix ip-address to not include the zone, > > > introduce ip-address-zone, and deprecate ip-address-no-zone. My take all > > > the is that all the existing usages do not require zone and this would be a > > > fix as opposed to a change. > > > > > > > > I don't think this will harm our implementations. > > The type is still string. The pattern will change but that is handled by a > > library. > > Whatever pattern is used will get handled the same way. > > Either a zone is allowed to be present or it is not, this does make a > difference, its not a cosmetic change. > > > True. The code will probably accept the pattern then fail trying to use the string. > If the client sends the form with a zone. > > > > > > The same problem exists for 'date' and 'date-no-zone' types, > > but they are not used very much. > > Perhaps we should call types a, b, c, and so on - this may force > people to read the descriptions. ;-) > > For some reason, the smarter the person, the less likely they are to > read any of the documentation before using some software. > I call it the "it should work the way I would design it" phenomenon :-) > > You have to admit that Acee's suggestion is more intuitive than the current > definitions. > > Clearly an NBC change. > IMO it is more useful to put some YANG extension magic in these specific typedefs > than just bumping a major revision number. This is a great use-case for the version DT. > > There probably is no solution path where nobody has to change any YANG or any code > and everything still works. > > > > /js > > Andy > > -- > Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Apr 7 01:03:57 2022 Return-Path: <01000180030ca4e9-01ae2238-b266-4b88-8626-e86e05d2f8a6-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41CE43A1286; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:03:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.905 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.905 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zHmqseP-I3oh; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8264B3A15A3; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:03:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1649318602; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:From:Mime-Version:Subject:Message-Id:Date:Cc:To:Feedback-ID; bh=mh0iyGm9RX62Y9JuhzfrE9jNB4q1qDVOV+4G2yWGNAc=; b=Kc6XFsqKq/qqvg0Zi/M12RP1SMY5spSvqHC5UXkBQ8drmGRNCFfsCD1zljtbBsM7 /AIWPQzPxIhIhVvlEKyXFUkbqPFkixDfnpfz+fcNuueY4FmaVfIxlwBn6cNhM/lVTNw KBmLiScDvhzRb+DfJqE6Bl8roiAxJmrgnqo//6UY= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-CD1DACB1-5668-45F1-9820-6A03D6830018 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kent Watsen Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-ID: <01000180030ca4e9-01ae2238-b266-4b88-8626-e86e05d2f8a6-000000@email.amazonses.com> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 08:03:22 +0000 Cc: draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, tom petch To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18H107) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.04.07-54.240.48.92 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 08:03:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail-CD1DACB1-5668-45F1-9820-6A03D6830018 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some of both, apparently ;) =20 That thread didn=E2=80=99t popup having a different Subject. =20 Carry on. I can revert the Datatracker state if needed.=20 K.=20 > Hey Kent, >=20 > Are you behind on your Emails or choosing to ignore the ongoing discussion= of the ip-address, ipv4-address, and ipv6-address types? >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Acee >=20 > =20 >=20 > From: netmod on behalf of Kent Watsen > Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 9:25 PM > To: "draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis@ietf.org" > Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 >=20 > =20 >=20 > This draft has been moved out of the WG. Now in shepherd write-up. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Comments: >=20 > =C2=B7 Section 4 is titled "Internet-Specific Derived Types" >=20 > o Should it be something like "Internet Protocol Suite Types"? >=20 > =C2=B7 Many places have "Simplified BSD" >=20 > o should be "Revised BSD" >=20 >=20 >=20 > =C2=B7 =20 --Apple-Mail-CD1DACB1-5668-45F1-9820-6A03D6830018 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Some of bo= th, apparently ;)  

Th= at thread didn=E2=80=99t popup having a different Subject.  

Carry on.  I can revert the Datat= racker state if needed. 

K. 


Hey Kent, <= /o:p>

Are you behind on your Emails or choosing to ignore t= he ongoing discussion of the ip-address, ipv4-address, and ipv6-address type= s?

Thanks,

Acee

 

From: netmod <netmod-bo= unces@ietf.org> on behalf of Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net>
Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 9:25 PM
To: "draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netmod-rf= c6991-bis@ietf.org>
Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11

 

This draft has been moved o= ut of the WG.  Now in shepherd write-up.

 

Comments:

=C2=B7         Section 4 is titled "Internet-Specific De= rived Types"

o    Should it be something like "Internet Pro= tocol Suite Types"?

=C2=B7         Many places have "Simplified BSD"

o    should be "Re= vised BSD"


=C2=B7         

= --Apple-Mail-CD1DACB1-5668-45F1-9820-6A03D6830018-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 01:39:22 2022 Return-Path: <01000180032d48a8-17e0d8da-1d7f-45d8-bf72-7d5c05e566e8-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A7C3A157A; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:39:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7g1chBXKaKgH; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-94.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-94.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C8753A1555; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:39:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1649320741; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:From:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:Message-Id:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:Feedback-ID; bh=Zg7ozmQ4GHRdw4uZ9XgYIe+nSQdUXyVnndVtCM+SdBY=; b=j1yebPk+e6UiN27Ityt9yqyVJv4gMzvNcMKh2G+joFr51WiEMu3JwhKRUNMBI7FY YdgCU68RK2bzLZnpiq8kgcxqvd02sHRXgt4RcIyUqEUP4k+bNuZ2DL31pIdrhQLb26M Xwwr+Sb0PaXEpf7GoQ6U/lhYuU2wyJkmx88/Z5rE= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Kent Watsen Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 08:39:01 +0000 Message-ID: <01000180032d48a8-17e0d8da-1d7f-45d8-bf72-7d5c05e566e8-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <20220407073452.rslzcxakaqnojedr@anna> Cc: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , lsr@ietf.org, The IESG , netmod@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20220407073452.rslzcxakaqnojedr@anna> To: =?utf-8?Q?J=C3=BCrgen_Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder?= X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18H107) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.04.07-54.240.48.94 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 08:39:07 -0000 Juergen et. al. , > What are our options? >=20 > a) Do nothing and accept that types are called as they are. > b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks > modules where zone indexes are meaningful. > c) Deprecate the types and create a new module defining new types > so that modules can opt-in to use better names. > d) Deprecate the -no-zone types and move back to have a single > type for IP addresses. What=E2=80=99s the value of (d)? Seems like keeping is better, if only to g= uide readers towards knowing the base types include zones. And, besides, an= y module-designer wishing to restrict zones would then have to create their o= wn =E2=80=9Cno-zone=E2=80=9D types.=20 > Any other options? e) define new types =E2=80=9C*-with-zone=E2=80=9D and deprecate existing =E2=80=9Cip*-address=E2=80=9D types and recast the =E2= =80=9C*-no-zone=E2=80=9D types as derived from the *-with-zone types? This w= ay it is always a conscious decision.=20 > How are we going to pick between them? I don=E2=80=99t think Errata works, since 6991 defining the *-no-zone types m= akes it clear what intended.=20 Kent (hatless) From nobody Thu Apr 7 02:25:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20843A15EC; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 02:25:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.605 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.605 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=KZl/hwMH; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: i1rgUsVZ3BlQ/PTjHRoBvzGw8G9IAKNXdoBZ9sDD/HZpLiBc2nJE76QEtEH2whMGPydt26gMs0GSdVDZYgeKPokz5WoXu87T7anibNZxOk4= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8P190MB0899 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 12:43:06 -0000 On Thu, Apr 07, 2022 at 08:39:01AM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > Juergen et. al. , > > > What are our options? > > > > a) Do nothing and accept that types are called as they are. > > b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks > > modules where zone indexes are meaningful. > > c) Deprecate the types and create a new module defining new types > > so that modules can opt-in to use better names. > > d) Deprecate the -no-zone types and move back to have a single > > type for IP addresses. > > What’s the value of (d)? Seems like keeping is better, if only to guide readers towards knowing the base types include zones. And, besides, any module-designer wishing to restrict zones would then have to create their own “no-zone” types. > I added d) for completeness. > > Any other options? > > e) define new types “*-with-zone” > and deprecate existing “ip*-address” types and recast the “*-no-zone” types as derived from the *-with-zone types? This way it is always a conscious decision. Yes, looks like a valid 5th option. My understanding is that we currently enumerate the options, not their pros and cons and whether we like them or not. > > How are we going to pick between them? > > I don’t think Errata works, since 6991 defining the *-no-zone types makes it clear what intended. Yes, my understanding is that the type definitions are clear and unambiguous. The issue is that the names tend to mislead people. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Apr 7 07:35:34 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 566A63A003D; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 07:35:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.606 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.606 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=ibX8tkCK; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=AxWfvf/A Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YackjlRntBoo; 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a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1649345432; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=nk7a8qL3L8p7FTzlhRZszK3pO48DrANj5WXiUYMgEnM=; b=CoExqfIEuKZsVL6iRCc3QSViDasrgDLMq6a8I2MjRKYdR8FpV5wKdC54ob2j29La dXCe86rFweXt0ulH4AYOJivGkUWxRoMKoPx6pzURjyDOv5DrlHDUbB9cCHOEhWc/Fka UkClJTAqVLIJHVL+Xup2Y/5AxyTui2VMD9xCWgNM= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100018004a60a4a-5477f035-4bc6-4324-b1af-4603aff436b1-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DBF68E5A-C88C-47C5-A1D9-057D7AA8E487" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 15:30:32 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20220407071335.ckf7y3xxzixhy7j4@anna> Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" , "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder References: <164929256637.5647.16487851538854891735@ietfa.amsl.com> <20220407071335.ckf7y3xxzixhy7j4@anna> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.04.07-54.240.48.90 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 15:30:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DBF68E5A-C88C-47C5-A1D9-057D7AA8E487 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Juergen, > On Apr 7, 2022, at 3:13 AM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder = wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 05:49:26PM -0700, IETF Secretariat wrote: >>=20 >> The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis has been changed = to "WG >> Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up" from "Waiting for WG Chair Go-Ahead" = by Kent >> Watsen: >>=20 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis/ >>=20 >=20 > Dear chairs, >=20 > given recent discussions around ip addresses, I am not sure about the > consensus I just moved the state back so it doesn't suggest consensus. > and perhaps we should consider to name the new date and time > types differently, e.g. >=20 > date -> date-with-zone > date-no-zone -> date > time -> time-with-zone > time-no-zone -> time >=20 > to avoid similar discussions in the future and to adopt a naming style > where optional elements are reflected in the name instead of using a > naming style where the absence of optional parts is reflected in the > name. Here's what is intuitive to me: - date YYYY-MM-DD - time hh:mm:ss Effectively your proposal. I question if "date-with-zone" or = "time-with-zone" are ever needed. Certainly not "date-with-zone", as = there is no way to reason about it. As for "time-with-zone", I'm = suspicious, as I've never seen it disconnected from a "date" before. Kent // contributor =20 >=20 > /js >=20 > --=20 > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University = Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 --Apple-Mail=_DBF68E5A-C88C-47C5-A1D9-057D7AA8E487 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hi Juergen,

On Apr 7, 2022, at 3:13 AM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder = <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

On = Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 05:49:26PM -0700, IETF Secretariat wrote:

The IETF = WG state of draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis has been changed to "WG
Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up" from "Waiting for WG Chair = Go-Ahead" by Kent
Watsen:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis/=


Dear = chairs,

given recent discussions around ip = addresses, I am not sure about the
consensus

I just moved the state back so it doesn't suggest = consensus.


 and perhaps we should consider to name = the new date and time
types differently, e.g.

 date -> date-with-zone
=  date-no-zone -> date
 time -> = time-with-zone
 time-no-zone -> time

to avoid similar discussions in the future and = to adopt a naming style
where optional elements are = reflected in the name instead of using a
naming style = where the absence of optional parts is reflected in the
name.


Here's what is intuitive to me:

- date YYYY-MM-DD
- = time = = hh:mm:ss

Effectively your proposal.  I question if = "date-with-zone" or "time-with-zone" are ever needed.   =  Certainly not "date-with-zone", as there is no way to reason about = it.  As for "time-with-zone", I'm suspicious, as I've never = seen it disconnected from a "date" before.


Kent // = contributor


 


/js

--
J=C3=BCrgen = Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder =             &n= bsp;Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 = Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 =         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e4514f24-773f-429d-7de3-08da18ae9ac6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Apr 2022 15:52:22.5172 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 1UY55NveTZJItRzA5PmB+l/HyZELvQw8/TshZeRf9Kwk2yBilTXFg7eKWa78rkpN1/0h10gdeCh7lNecf/Jpzg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR0702MB3668 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 15:52:32 -0000 From: netmod on behalf of Kent Watsen =0A= Sent: 07 April 2022 16:30=0A= =0A= Hi Juergen,=0A= =0A= On Apr 7, 2022, at 3:13 AM, J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder > wrote:=0A= =0A= On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 05:49:26PM -0700, IETF Secretariat wrote:=0A= =0A= The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis has been changed to "WG= =0A= Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up" from "Waiting for WG Chair Go-Ahead" by Ke= nt=0A= Watsen:=0A= =0A= https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis/=0A= =0A= =0A= Dear chairs,=0A= =0A= given recent discussions around ip addresses, I am not sure about the=0A= consensus=0A= =0A= I just moved the state back so it doesn't suggest consensus.=0A= =0A= =0A= and perhaps we should consider to name the new date and time=0A= types differently, e.g.=0A= =0A= date -> date-with-zone=0A= date-no-zone -> date=0A= time -> time-with-zone=0A= time-no-zone -> time=0A= =0A= to avoid similar discussions in the future and to adopt a naming style=0A= where optional elements are reflected in the name instead of using a=0A= naming style where the absence of optional parts is reflected in the=0A= name.=0A= =0A= Here's what is intuitive to me:=0A= =0A= - date YYYY-MM-DD=0A= - time hh:mm:ss=0A= =0A= Effectively your proposal. I question if "date-with-zone" or "time-with-zo= ne" are ever needed. Certainly not "date-with-zone", as there is no way = to reason about it. As for "time-with-zone", I'm suspicious, as I've never= seen it disconnected from a "date" before.=0A= =0A= =0A= I see time with zone and no date. It is needed whenever monitoring or some= other operational requirement is being set up to occur at the same time ev= ery day (which I see as a very common requirement).=0A= =0A= You can find it in e.g. I2NSF-consumer-facing (which I keep being told has = been around for years before being brought to the IETF).=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= Kent // contributor=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= /js=0A= =0A= --=0A= J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH=0A= Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany=0A= Fax: +49 421 200 3103 =0A= =0A= From nobody Thu Apr 7 08:56:48 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43EF93A0F0F for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 08:56:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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boundary="0000000000004053ce05dc1285e3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 15:56:42 -0000 --0000000000004053ce05dc1285e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 8:31 AM Kent Watsen wrote: > > Hi Juergen, > > On Apr 7, 2022, at 3:13 AM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 05:49:26PM -0700, IETF Secretariat wrote: > > > The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis has been changed to "W= G > Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up" from "Waiting for WG Chair Go-Ahead" by > Kent > Watsen: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis/ > > > Dear chairs, > > given recent discussions around ip addresses, I am not sure about the > consensus > > > I just moved the state back so it doesn't suggest consensus. > > > and perhaps we should consider to name the new date and time > types differently, e.g. > > date -> date-with-zone > date-no-zone -> date > time -> time-with-zone > time-no-zone -> time > > to avoid similar discussions in the future and to adopt a naming style > where optional elements are reflected in the name instead of using a > naming style where the absence of optional parts is reflected in the > name. > > > > Here's what is intuitive to me: > > - date YYYY-MM-DD > - time hh:mm:ss > > +1 > Effectively your proposal. I question if "date-with-zone" or > "time-with-zone" are ever needed. Certainly not "date-with-zone", as > there is no way to reason about it. As for "time-with-zone", I'm > suspicious, as I've never seen it disconnected from a "date" before. > > Perhaps the clue as to why these problems were not discovered until now. > Kent // contributor > > > > Andy > > > /js > > -- > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Bremen g= GmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --0000000000004053ce05dc1285e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 8:31 AM Kent W= atsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net> wrote:

Hi Juergen,
<= div>

On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 05:49:26PM -0700, IETF Sec= retariat wrote:

The IETF WG state of draft= -ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis has been changed to "WG
Consensus: Waiting= for Write-Up" from "Waiting for WG Chair Go-Ahead" by Kent<= br>Watsen:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft= -ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis/


Dear chairs,

g= iven recent discussions around ip addresses, I am not sure about the
con= sensus

I just moved the state back so it doesn't suggest consensus.=


<= div>=C2=A0and perhaps we should consider to name the new date and time
t= ypes differently, e.g.

=C2=A0date -> date-with-zone
=C2=A0da= te-no-zone -> date
=C2=A0time -> time-with-zone
=C2=A0time-no= -zone -> time

to avoid similar discussions in the future and to a= dopt a naming style
where optional elements are reflected in the name in= stead of using a
naming style where the absence of optional parts is ref= lected in the
name.


=
Here's what is intuitive to me:

- date YYYY-MM-DD
<= div> - time hh:mm= :ss

<= /div>

+1
=C2=A0
Effectively your proposal.=C2=A0 I question if &qu= ot;date-with-zone" or "time-with-zone" are ever needed. =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Certainly not "date-with-zone", as there is no way to r= eason about it.=C2=A0 As for=C2=A0"time-with-zone", I'm suspi= cious, as I've never seen it disconnected from a "date" befor= e.

=

Perhaps the clue as to why these pro= blems were not discovered until now.


=

Kent // contributor


=C2=A0


Andy
=C2=A0

/js

--
J=C3=BCrgen Sch= =C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 20= 0 3587 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 2875= 9 Bremen | Germany
Fax: =C2=A0=C2=A0+49 421 200 3103 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
<= /div>

___________________________________= ____________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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I question if "date-with-zone" or "time-with-zone" are ever needed. Certainly not "date-with-zone", as there is no way to reason about it. As for "time-with-zone", I'm suspicious, as I've never seen it disconnected from a "date" before. > This is what xsd:date and xsd:time do, see section 3.2.8 and 2.3.9 of and the intention was to provide a type that is compatible with the XSD definitions. I guess W3C also surprises their users. ;-) I will change the names and we need to answer the question whether we want to provide in addition types that are compatible with the XSD types or not. /js PS: The reason for date-with-zone is that it specifies an unambiguous 24 hour interval. If you state the deadline is 2022-04-08, then this means different things in different time zones. If you write 2022-04-08Z, then this ambiguity goes away. Perhaps nobody does this in the real world because people are prepared to deal with the ambiguity somehow but I can see reasons why XSD people went this way. -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Apr 7 09:09:17 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6803A0E4D; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 09:08:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jacobsuniversity.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dHUZFuSNkssw; 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Why should we start using this esoteric "no-zone" types in new models? Note you have RFC 9127 BIS going to through IESG right now... Better to fix it in one place (actually three, since there is ipv4-address, ipv6-address, and ip-address) then in who knows how many since many vendors import ietf-inet-types in their native models. > I can't tell how many usages of ip-address are out there where the optional zone never applies and how many usages of ip-address are out there where dropping the optional zone breaks models for deployments where link-local addresses are used. What we see may be biased by the kind of data models we look at, routing related data models may show different properties than application layer related data models. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Apr 7 09:11:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE30C3A0E8E; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 09:11:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i2uBbTb74FWo; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR07MB6256.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ed870e59-1cbd-4ea1-f031-08da18b13c63 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Apr 2022 16:11:12.6244 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: KG57OeoXT/zyo0zb6/CwJfdvfKKF8tjDWVbJy0t8KD7OWmuD/2tcfs6fMbiEelE557Nz46mgT9i3bsaWkKDOKw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR07MB5874 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 16:11:22 -0000 From: Lsr on behalf of Rob Wilton (rwilton) =0A= Sent: 07 April 2022 10:25=0A= =0A= I basically agree with Acee, and I think that we should do (b):=0A= =0A= b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks=0A= modules where zone indexes are meaningful.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= I am concerned that such behaviour will damage the standing of the IETF at = large.=0A= =0A= We clearly laid down rules as to what updates were regarded as compatible s= o that authors of software could be confident that their work was robust an= d future-proof. We did it with SNMP, inter alia, and we have carried that = forward with YANG. To tear up that understanding , creating who knows how = much disruption, can only harm the standing of IETF.=0A= =0A= Much has been said about how implementations have assumed that the address = types do not include a zone but no evidence has been put forward for that a= ssertion.=0A= =0A= I have always assumed that software uses libraries and that the libraries h= ave been written with an understanding of the specifications such that if a= zone is received over the wire in conformance with the specification but w= here the display, field or such like does not allow for a zone, then, toler= ant of what to accept, the zone is silently discarded and the address is us= ed without the zone. But, like the assertion that keeping the zone will ca= use who knows what damage, I have not done the research to substantiate tha= t assumption.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch =0A= =0A= I appreciate that this is an NBC change, but I believe that this is the mos= t intuitive definition and is the best choice longer term. I also note tha= t the base ipv4-address/ipv6-address types in OpenConfig (where they use th= e OC copy/version of inet-types and not ietf-inet-types) don't allow a zone= to be specified and assumes the default zone. They have separate types in= cases where a zone is allowed to be specified, i.e., aligned to what (b) p= roposes.=0A= =0A= For modules that are using/wanting zones (if any), then they can migrate to= the new explicit zone type. draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning, if= it keeps its import "revision-or-derived" extension, would also allow such= modules to indicate the dependency on the updated revision/definition of i= etf-inet-types.yang.=0A= =0A= Of course, the description associated with the updated ietf-inet-types.yang= revision should clearly highly the non-backwards-compatible change to the = types.=0A= =0A= Rob=0A= =0A= =0A= -----Original Message-----=0A= From: iesg On Behalf Of J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder=0A= Sent: 07 April 2022 08:35=0A= To: Acee Lindem (acee) =0A= Cc: lsr@ietf.org; The IESG ; netmod@ietf.org=0A= Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-= yang-10.txt=0A= =0A= Here is roughly what happened:=0A= =0A= - RFC 6020 (published ~12 years ago) introduced the ip-address=0A= type. It included an optional zone index part since zone indexes=0A= are necessary in certain situations (e.g., configuring services=0A= listening on link-local addresses or clients connecting to services=0A= listening on link-local addresses).=0A= =0A= - RFC 6991 (published ~9 years ago) added the ip-address-no-zone types=0A= since people felt that it is useful to also an ip address type=0A= without the optional zone part for situations where a zone is not=0A= applicable. The name 'ip-address-no-zone' was picked since the name=0A= ip-address was already taken.=0A= =0A= I understand that the names resulting from this evolution of the YANG=0A= module confuse people not looking up the type definitions. Let me note=0A= that using a type allowing for an optional zone for a leaf that never=0A= needs a zone is not a fatal error (its like using an int where a short=0A= is sufficient) while using a type not allowing for a zone for a leaf=0A= that may need zones is a fatal error (using a short where an int is=0A= required) requiring an update of the definition of the leaf to fix.=0A= =0A= What are our options?=0A= =0A= a) Do nothing and accept that types are called as they are.=0A= b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks=0A= modules where zone indexes are meaningful.=0A= c) Deprecate the types and create a new module defining new types=0A= so that modules can opt-in to use better names.=0A= d) Deprecate the -no-zone types and move back to have a single=0A= type for IP addresses.=0A= =0A= Any other options?=0A= =0A= How are we going to pick between them?=0A= =0A= /js=0A= =0A= On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 09:02:23PM +0000, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote:=0A= > J=FCrgen and netmod WG, +IESG,=0A= >=0A= > It is not just the IETF models that are using the inet:ip-address for the= standard IPv4/IPv6 addresses without zones. Every vendor=92s native models= and the OpenConfig models use the base types and expect the standard IP ad= dress notation. If we don=92t fix this, it is something that people can poi= nt to as another example of the IETF being out of touch with reality.=0A= >=0A= > I thought about more, and it might make the backward compatibility easier= if we just leave the existing ip-address-no-zone, ipv4-address-no-zone, an= d ipv6-address-no-zone types and add *-zone types for the remote possibilit= y that someone actually wants to include the zone. In the existing RFC 699= 1 BIS document, we could merely remove the zone from the ip-address, ipv4-a= ddress, and ipv6-address types and classify this as we would any other bug = fix. While including the zone was the original intent of the base types, th= is is what those of us who work on software products would classify as a re= quirements bug.=0A= >=0A= > Thanks,=0A= > Acee=0A= >=0A= > From: Andy Bierman =0A= > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 3:21 PM=0A= > To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Andy Bi= erman , Acee Lindem , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" =0A= > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-ls= a-yang-10.txt=0A= >=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 12:02 PM J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder > wrote:= =0A= > On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 10:03:25AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:=0A= > > >=0A= > > > The best outcome would be to fix ip-address to not include the zone,= =0A= > > > introduce ip-address-zone, and deprecate ip-address-no-zone. My take = all=0A= > > > the is that all the existing usages do not require zone and this woul= d be a=0A= > > > fix as opposed to a change.=0A= > > >=0A= > > >=0A= > > I don't think this will harm our implementations.=0A= > > The type is still string. The pattern will change but that is handled b= y a=0A= > > library.=0A= > > Whatever pattern is used will get handled the same way.=0A= >=0A= > Either a zone is allowed to be present or it is not, this does make a=0A= > difference, its not a cosmetic change.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > True. The code will probably accept the pattern then fail trying to use t= he string.=0A= > If the client sends the form with a zone.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > > The same problem exists for 'date' and 'date-no-zone' types,=0A= > > but they are not used very much.=0A= >=0A= > Perhaps we should call types a, b, c, and so on - this may force=0A= > people to read the descriptions. ;-)=0A= >=0A= > For some reason, the smarter the person, the less likely they are to=0A= > read any of the documentation before using some software.=0A= > I call it the "it should work the way I would design it" phenomenon :-)= =0A= >=0A= > You have to admit that Acee's suggestion is more intuitive than the curre= nt=0A= > definitions.=0A= >=0A= > Clearly an NBC change.=0A= > IMO it is more useful to put some YANG extension magic in these specific = typedefs=0A= > than just bumping a major revision number. This is a great use-case for t= he version DT.=0A= >=0A= > There probably is no solution path where nobody has to change any YANG or= any code=0A= > and everything still works.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > /js=0A= >=0A= > Andy=0A= >=0A= > --=0A= > J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH=0A= > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany=0A= > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 =0A= =0A= --=0A= J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH=0A= Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany=0A= Fax: +49 421 200 3103 =0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= Lsr mailing list=0A= Lsr@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr=0A= From nobody Thu Apr 7 09:26:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD763A0E9A for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 09:26:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uCkk-ZKLRtdW for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 09:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BB33A0A73 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 09:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [173.38.220.35]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E07CB1AE035B; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 18:26:30 +0200 (CEST) From: Jan Lindblad Message-Id: <0FAAE3B8-ADF8-4455-A683-A6E837314CDA@tail-f.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_ADA808B5-826B-4D90-9B5D-C8BC3BA0D42D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.80.82.1.1\)) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 18:26:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" To: "maqiufang (A)" , Balazs Lengyel References: <8F7D5127-E621-4920-BE30-89E1BF7E778D@tail-f.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 16:26:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ADA808B5-826B-4D90-9B5D-C8BC3BA0D42D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Balazs,=20 This thread is becoming a bit unwieldy, so I will make my comment here = on top. > =C2=B7 The potential NBC issue behind this principle: If the = "resolve-system" parameter is not given by the client, the server MUST = NOT modify in any way not specified by the client. > BALAZS2: I very strongly oppose this restriction because it is: a bad = idea, unenforceable, NBC and would be a problem for other SDOs. > =20 > JANL: I could accept watering down MUST NOT to SHOULD NOT. > BALAZS3: Sorry, I know system-set data has its problems, but my = arguments still stand. >=20 > [Qiufang] SHOULD NOT is fine from my perspective. >=20 JANL: The point with YANG is to provide a pretty comprehensive model of = the server's behavior, so that clients know what to expect, and enable = them to reason about the state of the server. If you mean to say that = there isn't even a SHOULD requirement that servers heed the edits = provided by clients, I don't know what we are doing here. Best Regards, /jan > On 31 Mar 2022, at 11:42, maqiufang (A) wrote: >=20 > Hi, Balazs, Jan > Please see my reply inline. > =20 > From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel [mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com = ]=20 > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2022 5:31 AM > To: Jan Lindblad >; maqiufang = (A) > > Cc: NetMod WG > > Subject: RE: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 > =20 > See BALAZS3 below. > regards Balazs > =20 > From: Jan Lindblad >=20 > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March, 2022 16:12 > To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >; maqiufang (A) = > > Cc: NetMod WG > > Subject: Re: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 > =20 > Hello Bal=C3=A1zs, Qiufang, > =20 > I've added some comments below as JANL. > =20 > Hi, Balazs, > Thanks for your thorough review and valuable comments! > To be brief, I will incorporate some of them to the update, but I = think there are still a couple of comments that need further discussion, = like: > =C2=B7 Terminology to differentiate between the same(-path) = data nodes in different datastores(e.g., system and running). > BALAZS2: MY best idea is to ALWAYS say: > The =E2=80=9Cinterface data node in =E2=80=9D > =E2=80=9C/running/interfaces/interface/name=E2=80=9D - = so prefix the datastore name to the path > =20 > JANL: Actually, I think this notation is rather confusing. How about = :running:/interfaces/interface/name ? > BALAZS3:OK, I tried to follow the Restconf notation, but I am ok with = your proposal. > =20 > =C2=B7 Should =E2=80=9Ccopy-config=E2=80=9D operation also be = augmented to support =E2=80=9Cresolve-system=E2=80=9D parameter? > BALAZS2: IMO yes. If you copy a complete configuration from a file to = running, you will still need parts of to make the new content = of valid. > =20 > JANL: I think this makes sense. > =20 > =C2=B7 The potential NBC issue behind this principle: If the = "resolve-system" parameter is not given by the client, the server MUST = NOT modify in any way not specified by the client. > BALAZS2: I very strongly oppose this restriction because it is: a bad = idea, unenforceable, NBC and would be a problem for other SDOs. > =20 > JANL: I could accept watering down MUST NOT to SHOULD NOT. > BALAZS3: Sorry, I know system-set data has its problems, but my = arguments still stand. >=20 > [Qiufang] SHOULD NOT is fine from my perspective. >=20 > =C2=B7 Will the update of be reflected into = ? If not, will this cause an invalid datastore? > BALAZS2: I see this similar as an upgrade problem. Following RFC7950 = section 11 rules: During an upgrade you may obsolete a schema node, this = remove it, or you may add a default value. Both changes may make an = existing configuration invalid. System configuration should also be = changed only very carefully because it may cause an invalid = configuration, in which case the change to system-configuration probably = should be rejected / not-allowed. =20 > =20 > JANL: At system upgrade, I think autoconfig (system modifying its own = configuration) is acceptable. Such changes could be seen as actions made = by a system-internal client. >=20 > Automatic updates in running is a tricky problem. E.g. will you remove = configuration of an interface if the HW is removed? There might be a lot = of data nodes configured based on it. There might be leafrefs pointing = at the interface. > [Qiufang] Agreed. Automatic updates in running when the system = configuration changes should not be allowed. If the intention is to = override a value of a system-defined node(the system-defined node is = modifiable and has several dynamic default values), any update to the = data node may not be cared to sync into . The client can = subscribe the update, and determine itself whether any update = should be reflected into . > =20 > JANL: As many of you know, I'm not particularly happy about such = changes (I prefer the configuration to be left intact, but the oper = state to change to down/hardware-missing, etc) but if someone insists, = these situations too could be seen as management operations executed = over a different protocol (the = operator-manipulates-the-hardware-protocol). In this case the = system-internal client making config updates is responsible for ensuring = running stays valid at all times. > BALAZS3: I see this similar to an upgrade. At time of an upgrade or = system-config changes you may need to adjust your configuration. E.g. = confd does that. IMHO changing the system-configuration is just as = serious matter as an upgrade. It should happen rarely and be done = carefully. I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion about this yet, but I = feel we should describe whatever should be happening. > =20 > In section 1) we indicate automatically updating the interfaces = depending on HW changes. I would REALLY !!!!! like a detailed = description of this use-case. That would help me understand our plans = better. > [Qiufang] I think that Appendix A has already defined some of the = related use cases. > As I understand > when an interface is plugged in > - it will be automatically created in with list-entry, name, = type. > - will NOT be updated automatically > The client might copy over the created :system:/interfaces/interface = into > The client may use resolve-system property to implicitly copy over the = :system:/interfaces/interface into > [Qiufang] True, but note that the configuration will only be copied = into when there is a leafref refers to an existing interface, = to make valid. > Can a client set a different type to = :running:/interfaces/interface[name=3Dif0]/type then what is = automatically set in :system:/interfaces/interface[name=3Dif0]/type ? > - If yes, that might lead to confusion, misconfiguration (might use an = operationalState leaf to indicate this) > - if no, this is a constraint between 2 datastores that needs to be = cleanly explained in the draft and specified in the model > [Qiufang] No, the client cannot set an different value for an = immutable system configuration in . I think the draft has = already mentioned this: =E2=80=9CIf a system configuration node is = non-modifiable, then writing a different value for that node in = MUST return an error.=E2=80=9D > One idea for this would be to introduce a new value for the immutable = flag (in the other draft) for the schema node =E2=80=9Csystem-defined-valu= e=E2=80=9D meaning that the value in and/or MUST = be the same as the value in (if system datastore is supported) = otherwise the same as in (if that system datastore is not = supported but operational is) or the same as a system defined value = documented in an implementation specific manner (if neither system nor = operational is supported). > [Qiufang] I think immutable flag work has covered this, the only = difference is that immutable is defined as annotation in the current = draft, not a schema. > Once interface[name=3Dif0] is correctly configured in and = what happens if > - the system decides to change the type of the interface? (e.g. = swapping between 2 interface card) Will that impact the running = configuration? Some parts of configuration maybe meaningless or = incorrect for the new interface type. So it is potentially more than = just an operationalState=3Ddown. > =20 > - the interface card is removed? > -- remove the :running:/interfaces/interface[name=3Dif0] = subtree which might make some leaf-ref invalid > -- always have an operational-state attribute that = indicates that either that the substree of the configuration is down or = that it is incorrect. The user will need to either delete the subtree = via netconf/restconf/cli or update it to make the configuration correct. = The second might be a better idea because it retains the user input = configuration, it also handles the changed type use-case. However how do = we enforce this rule about operational-state? > [Qiufang] The related configuration should not be removed from = automatically. NMDA has already defined this = (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8342#section-5.3.2 = ): > =E2=80=9D we allow configuration for missing resources to exist in = and > , but it will not appear in .=E2=80=9D > To be general, I think any system configuration being deleted from = should not cause it to be deleted from = automatically(if it exists in ), given it is very likely that = it has already been referenced. > =20 > Please see more reply below. > =20 > =20 > Best Regards, > /jan > =20 > =20 > =20 > From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:47 AM > To: 'netmod@ietf.org ' > > Subject: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 > =20 > Hello, > I did a detailed review of the system draft. My comments questions are = below. > Regards Balazs > =20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > =20 > General) > I think this work is important and valuable, but it needs quite a lot = improvements. > =20 > The term system-configuration is used confusingly. Does=20 > system-configuration reside in the datastore only or can it > reside in the datastore too? If system-configuration is = copied by > the client (+) into the datastore is = it > still system-configuration? It is set by the client this time not the = system. > [Qiufang] Yes, I agree. > System configuration is provided by the device in datastore, = though I think it may also be present in with = origin=3D=E2=80=9Dsystem=E2=80=9D. > If it is copied/pasted into , the copied configuration in = should not be called as =E2=80=9Csystem configuration=E2=80=9D. > But I think it=E2=80=99s okay to say something like =E2=80=9Ccopy = system configuration into =E2=80=9D, the object to be copied is = system configuration which is defined in . > BALAZS2: So the definition of system-config is: > System configuration: Configuration that is provided by the system = itself. It is the configuration that is stored in the datastore = or the configuration data stored in the datastore with = origin=3Dsystem. > [Qiufang] Would the following definition be better? > System configuration: Configuration that is provided by the system = itself. System configuration is present in once it's created, = regardless of being applied by the device. Applied system configuration = also appears in with origin=3D"system". > This means that=20 > Some terminology is needed to indicate that you mean a specific data = node > IN A SPECIFIC DATASTORE. The same data node (according to the path in = the > data tree) in different datastores need to be referenced separately. > [Qiufang]Cross-datastores references is not the intention here. > Any suggestions to make it clear or what does the terminology looks = like in your mind? > =20 > Does the solution allow conditional system configuration?=20 > (E.g., if the client creates an OSPF interface the system inserts a = child leaf into it) > [Qiufang] Yes, it does. System configurations which are provided and = activated based on specific conditions being met in a system, it is = defined as =E2=80=9CConditionally-Active system configuration=E2=80=9D. > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02.txt#s= ection-2.2 = describes this kind of system configuration. > =20 > 1.1) If system shares the same schema as running that would force it = to > populate mandatory nodes. That might be a problem.=20 > State that mandatory or min-elements might not be enforced in = . > [Qiufang] I think that mandatory or min/max-elements nodes should be = enforced in . There should be no exceptions. > What=E2=80=99s the problem that you think might happen? > 1.3) =E2=80=9Cclient may overwrite values of configurations defined in = =E2=80=9D > However it also states: The contents of datastore are = read-only > These seem to contradict. Please clarify. > [Qiufang]It is confusing, indeed. When it says the contents of = datastore are read-only, I mean is a read-only = datastore, e.g., an operation towards should be = refused. But the client can overwrite values of configurations defined = in by writing new values in , which will take = precedence over initial values set by the system. > How about this: > OLD:=E2=80=9D client may overwrite values of configurations defined in = =E2=80=9D > NEW:=E2=80=9Cclient may overwrite values of configurations defined in = by configuring the intended values in .=E2=80=9D > BALAZS2: > New is good, but use the word override instead of overwrite. We = don=E2=80=99t actually change the existing values, rather providing = another value in that will have precedence. > [Qiufang] Sure, thanks. > 1.4) Shoudn't copy-config also be effected? Copy-config=20 > might also need system configured items. It should be mentioned that = the same > "resolution" is also needed after a node-restart. > [Qiufang] Are you suggesting to augment copy-config with = =E2=80=9Cresolve-system=E2=80=9D parameter also? > This operation is used to replace the target configuration, so you = also want the server to write missing referenced system nodes = automatically after the full replacement. > But is this still a =E2=80=9Ccopy-config=E2=80=9D? Copy usually means = the same to me. Do you have any use cases in your mind? > I think we need further discussion, or let=E2=80=99s see if anyone has = any other comments on this. > BALAZS2: IMO yes. If you copy a complete configuration from a file to = running, you will still need parts of to make the new content = of valid. If you think of conditional-system-configuration the = above is specially true. > [Qiufang]Noted. > What does populate mean? Is it the same as "copy from system to = running" ? If > yes please use that terminology. Populate is not as specific. > [Qiufang] Sure, thanks. I will reword it. > =20 > 2) In the subchapters (and later) you use the terms provided, = activated, applied. I am not > sure what this means. Is a not yet applied item present in the = > datastore or only when it is applied? If I do a get-data on > will I receive not-applied data nodes? > [Qiufang] This might be confusing. I will try to define/delete these = terms, if they are not defined in NMDA. > A data item will be present in once it is provided by the = system, regardless of whether it is applied. > Note that NMDA already defines the term =E2=80=9Capplied = configuration=E2=80=9D, which is configuration that is actively in use = by a device. > =E2=80=9CActivated=E2=80=9D should be removed and replaced with = =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D. > What is the difference between an applied and an activated data node = and an > applied but not activated data node? > [Qiufang]I think there is no difference, both mean that the = configuration is in use by a server. Or maybe you want to ask what is = the difference between a generated and applied data node and an = generated but not applied data node? Regardless it is applied = immediately when it=E2=80=99s generated, once system configuration is = generated, it will appear in . System configuration that are not = applied yet is unlikely to appear in , but it may also = depend on the device implementation. > I would rather see terminology like: > - is present in the datastore > - is not yet present in the datastore, but the system will = create it > in the datastore when a condition is fulfilled. > [Qiufang]Sure, will try to make it clear in next version. > How is it defined for specific schema nodes which kind of system-data = it is ? > Free English text?=20 > Is it needed to define this formally or is it enough if the server = knows this? > [Qiufang] Current draft doesn=E2=80=99t define any specific schema to = indicate which kind of system-data it is. > Although this work tries to explore all different kinds of system = configuration, I don=E2=80=99t see a compelling reason to define a = dedicated schema to identify each kind. > But I think that the client can understand each kind of system = configuration by some ways, e.g., Configuration which is only present in = and not is inactive-until-referenced, and = configuration which is generated and present in when a specific = feature is enabled is conditionally-active system configuration. > 2.2) Isn't the best example for this, when the functionality is = licensed and > the license key is inserted? > [Qiufang]Sec.2.2 gives two examples for conditionally-active system = configuration, one for hardware-related resource condition driven, and = the other for software-related functionality resource driven.=20 > Are you saying that QoS is not a good example? There used to be some = discussion, I think we all agree that when QoS feature is enabled, QoS = related system configuration will be generated. But licensing a = functionality could also be the case from my perspective.=20 > =E2=80=9CI agree there can be dynamically added system config (e.g. = create a new qos policy, and some queue list entries are automatically = created inside that policy).=E2=80=9D > = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/ERmwCg6fVkPtbYn_Vkcgf9J6dJU/ = > = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/919hV5ql3aI87ymvmbQX4yPwWCs/ = =20 > 3.1) is also read-only so why is that better to = store > deletable data ? Did you mean that system-config originated data = cannot be > delete even if it is copied over to running? Is that true both for = explicit > NBI originated copy and copy due to resolve-system? > [Qiufang]I believe that this was discussed both on the mail list and = at NETMOD's interim meeting last October. > A client can configure/override a system-instantiated object in = , it can also delete it from ( and I agree with you = that once it=E2=80=99s present in we cannot call it =E2=80=9Csys= tem configuration=E2=80=9D actually, and the value initialized by the = system is overwritten even it=E2=80=99s the same value). > But anyway the contents defined in will be merged into = and . Therefore there is no way to delete a = system configuration which is defined in . > But can be used to initialize , and once = it=E2=80=99s deleted from , it is totally deleted from the = device. > And to answer your question, yes, system configuration defined in = cannot be deleted even it is copied over to running, it=E2=80=99s= true both for explicit copy and copy due to resolve-system parameter. > 3.2) If something was populated/copied over to running/candidate = will/should > any changed system values be copied over again thereby updating the > running/candidate datastores? > Can this result in the running becoming invalid? > [Qiufang]Are you asking will any changes in be reflected into = /? > That=E2=80=99s a good question! Currently I suppose no, and I don=E2=80=99= t think that will result in becoming invalid, since the = contents in keep unchanged. > On the contrary, I think if the update being reflected into = MAY cause to be invalid. > I don=E2=80=99t think all the update in datastore should be = reflected into , e.g., an intentional override operation should = not care the updated system-instantiated leaf instance value. > Since this document defines a datastore, the client can use = YANG notification to aware any system configuration updates, and reflect = the update into by itself if needed. Does this make sense?=20 > =20 > 4.1) You write=20 > "The client may reference nodes defined in , overwrite values > of configurations defined in " > IMHO the data nodes in and are 2 different things = even > if they reside on the same path in the data tree. You need to find > terminology to differentiate between the same(-path) data nodes in = different > datastores. The current terminology is confusing, I need to guess = which > datastore you mean. I think this guessing process might hide problems. > Do you mean here: "The client may reference nodes defined in = if they are > copied into / as a result of an explicit copy or > resolve-system parameter." For me referencing a data node in running = and > referencing a data node in (even if they share the same = address in > the data tree) are 2 separate things. I don't think you want to create = a > reference that point between datastores. > Do you mean here: "overwrite values of the data nodes that were = created by > copying from the datastore." > [Qiufang] Maybe I=E2=80=99ve caused some confusion. > Forget the datastore for the moment. The client usually has = the desire to reference a system-defined node, or overwrite values of = system configurations, right? > The datastore only contains those which are actively in = use, there is no standard mechanism for the client to see what system = configuration is available in a server. > is defined as a standard mechanism to allow the client to = retrieve system configuration. So that it can reference/overwrite system = configuration, by the client writing configuration to that = overrides/copies the system configuration in .=20 > is only defined to retrieve available system configuration. > " MAY overwrite and/or extend " this means that the > data nodes in system are modified although they are readOnly. > Is this what you mean? Clarify! > [Qiufang] itself is read-only. Any attempts to modification = (e.g., ) towards datastore should be rejected. > But this doesn=E2=80=99t mean there is no way to overwrite/extend = system configuration. Sec4.4 illustrates the details about overwriting = and addition. > I will see how to make it clear in the next version. > BALAZS2: Again as I understand it: we do not overwrite system = configuration, we might overwrite data nodes in running that were = originally copied from the datastore. > [Qiufang]I am worried that we are paying excessive attention to the = wording. The system initializes a value which the client does not like, = and the client uses an to configure the desired value into = . will show that data with origin=3D=E2=80=9Dintend= ed=E2=80=9D. Isn't this overriding the system configuration? Actually, a = system-initialized configuration is overriden. > =20 > "Note that only aware clients copy > referenced system nodes from " > How does the server know if the client is system-aware? It would be = better to > state something like: > 'In order for the system configuration to affect validation the client = needs to > either use the resolve-system parameter or explicitly copy system = configuration > into running' > [Qiufang]Yes, the draft already says something similar to your = proposal.=20 > Sec4.1:=E2=80=9D Clients MUST either > explicitly configure system-defined nodes in or use the > "resolve-system" parameter.=E2=80=9D > =20 > Last para: The server has no way to know if the client is system = aware. Once > the data nodes are copied into there is no need to say more. > [Qiufang] There is no need for the server to understand if the client = is aware. > But I=E2=80=99ll think it important to state in the draft that the = copied configuration driven by the =E2=80=9Cresolve-system=E2=80=9D will = also be returned in a read back of datastore, and this = behavior also applies to legacy clients, to avoid any NBC issues. > 4.2 > "If the "resolve-system" parameter is not given by the client, the = server > MUST NOT modify in any way not specified by the client." > I very strongly OBJECT.=20 > - It is a bad idea.=20 > - This is a big NBC change to Netconf/YANG.=20 > - Other SDOs (3GPP, O-RAN) depend on the capability to modify = . They > have data nodes where it is stated that list entries are not created = by the client. > - This would need a revision 2 of YANG. > - It is also unenforceable. It would be possible to work around it. > The system instantiates an onboard client to do the changes AND the = system > prohibits the change for other clients. > However this is just a more complicated way of stating that the system = itself > modifies running; we gain nothing but make the world more complicated. > [Qiufang]When we first start this work, a lot of folks agree that = clients will benefit from a server which will not do anything the client = doesn=E2=80=99t explicitly ask for. > We usually want a read-back of contains only what was = explicitly sent by the clients. This even used to be one of the = objectives stated in the draft. > But I=E2=80=99ve seen your points here. Let=E2=80=99s see if there is = any other comments or suggestions. Otherwise I=E2=80=99d prefer to = change this with a recommendation behavior. > 4.3 > Paragraph-1 sentence 2 & 3 are trivial thus not needed. If you = configure > something in running it becomes part of running independent of this = draft. > [Qiufang] Yes, I agree. These can be removed. > Mention that the system itself can also copy over parts or the = complete > system configuration into running.=20 > [Qiufang] Sure, will do, thanks! > 4.4 > In some cases, a server may allow some parts of system configuration > to be modified. List keys in system configuration can't be changed > by a client, but other descendant nodes in a list entry may be > modifiable or non-modifiable. > =20 > This contradicts the statement that the datastore is = readOnly. > [Qiufang] See my clarification above, will see how to refine this = statement. > "Client configuration statements in take precedence over = system > configuration nodes in " > =20 > Instead of hiding this sentence in the middle of a subchapter, there = should be > a separate chapter about merging running and system into intended, = stating that running has precedence. > This a tier 1 important statement ! > There could be some interesting corner cases. > [Qiufang] Okay, noted. > Once the data is in running, AFAIK the knowledge about why is it there = is lost, > so terms like "client configuration" are hard to understand. That = sounds more > like a use-case than a rule. > [Qiufang] Sure, I will just say =E2=80=9Cconfiguration defined in = =E2=80=9D. Is this better? > BALAZS2: Yes > "While modifying (overriding) system configuration nodes may be > supported by a server, there is no mechanism for deleting a system > configuration node." > =20 > Once the node is in the datastore if it is not mandatory it = is > possible to remove it. What prevents it? What if it was the client = that copied > the configuration into ? Is the client forbidden to remove = something > that it created itself? I don't think so. > [Qiufang] No, the client is not forbidden to remove something that it = created itself. > But even the node is removed from , what=E2=80=99s defined in = datastore can still be merged into and applied by = the device. > Thus there is no mechanism for deleting a system configuration node = from the device=E2=80=99s perspective. Make sense? > BALAZS2: Makes sense and I agree, but I would propose the wording: > "While modifying (overriding) system configuration with data nodes in = the datastore may be > supported by a server, there is no mechanism for deleting a > configuration node from the datastore." > =20 > 5. > "datastore does not have to persist across reboots." > 'I would say: The content of the datastore is removed at reboot and > re-created by the system with the same or changed content.' > IMHO it is important to state that there will be some reasonable = content in the > datastore even if it might have changed. > [Qiufang] Sure. What I have mentioned in the draft is that reboots = will cause the contents of to be lost. > I did not mention something in the draft that reboots will also cause = contents change in the datastore after re-loading/re-creating. = But this is obviously true from my perspective. > BALAZS2: The re-0creation of (some) system configuration is what I am = missing after a reboot. > 7.1 > "Comment: How does a RESTCONF client know if the RESTCONF server > implements the "resolve-system" parameter?" > Make it a capability in the hello message like with-defaults. > [Qiufang] I am thinking that maybe no need to define a capability = identifier, and YANG library can also help for RESTCONF client. > RFC8527 says that an NMDA-compliant RESTCONF server MUST support the = datastore and MUST implement the ietf-yang-library module. > It also states: > =E2=80=9D A RESTCONF client can discover which datastores and YANG = modules the > server supports by reading the YANG library information from the > operational state datastore.=E2=80=9D > Make sense? > BALAZS2: Not yet. The resolve-system parameter might be supported = without a datastore as I understand. True? > SO does the support for the YANG module indicate the support for the = resolve-system parameter? Isn=E2=80=99t that an overkill to use YANG = modules to indicate support for a protocol capability? It might work, = but is that the right way to do it? > [Qiufang] Yes, I just realize that there is no YANG module for = RESTCONF resolve-system parameter. RFC8040 has defined a set of RESTCONF = capability URIs to identify the query parameters supported by the = server, it makes sense to define and register another capability = identifier for RESTCONF resolve-system parameter. Thanks, balazs. > =20 > Best Regards, > Qiufang > 7.2 > The placement of resolve-system is sometimes incorrect. It shall be = inside the > element. > [Qiufang] Good catch! I=E2=80=99ve fixed in my local version. Thanks, = Balazs. > =20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod = > =20 --Apple-Mail=_ADA808B5-826B-4D90-9B5D-C8BC3BA0D42D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Balazs, 

This thread is becoming a bit unwieldy, so I will make my = comment here on top.

=C2=B7         The potential NBC issue behind this principle: If the = "resolve-system" parameter is not given by the client, the server MUST = NOT modify <running> in any way not specified by the = client.

BALAZS2: I = very strongly oppose this restriction because it is: a bad idea, = unenforceable, NBC and would be a problem for other SDOs.
 

JANL: I could accept watering down = MUST NOT to SHOULD NOT.
BALAZS3: Sorry, I know system-set data has its = problems, but my arguments still stand.

[Qiufang] SHOULD NOT is fine from my = perspective.

JANL:= The point with YANG is to provide a pretty comprehensive model of the = server's behavior, so that clients know what to expect, and enable them = to reason about the state of the server. If you mean to say that there = isn't even a SHOULD requirement that servers heed the edits provided by = clients, I don't know what we are doing here.

Best Regards,
/jan



On 31 Mar 2022, at 11:42, maqiufang (A) <maqiufang1@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi, Balazs, Jan
Please = see my reply inline.
 
From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel [mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2022 = 5:31 AM
To: Jan Lindblad <janl@tail-f.com>; maqiufang (A) <maqiufang1@huawei.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] Balazs Review = of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02
 
See BALAZS3 below.
regards = Balazs
 
From: Jan Lindblad <janl@tail-f.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, 30 March, 2022 = 16:12
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; maqiufang (A) <maqiufang1@huawei.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Balazs Review = of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02
 
Hello Bal=C3=A1zs, Qiufang,
 
I've added some comments below as JANL.
 
Hi, = Balazs,
Thanks for your thorough review and = valuable comments!
To be brief, I will = incorporate some of them to the update, but I think there are still a = couple of comments that need further discussion, like:

=C2=B7         Terminology to differentiate between the same(-path) data = nodes in different datastores(e.g., system and running).

BALAZS2: MY best idea = is to ALWAYS say:
          &nb= sp;    The =E2=80=9Cinterface data node in <running>=E2=80=9D
          &nb= sp;    =E2=80=9C/running/interfaces/interface/name=E2=80=9D  - so prefix the = datastore name to the path
 
JANL: Actually, I think this notation is rather confusing. = How about :running:/interfaces/interface/name ?
BALAZS3:OK,= I tried to follow the Restconf notation, but I am ok with your = proposal.
 

=C2=B7         Should = =E2=80=9Ccopy-config=E2=80=9D operation also be augmented to support = =E2=80=9Cresolve-system=E2=80=9D parameter?

BALAZS2: IMO yes. If you copy a complete configuration = from a file to running, you will still need parts of <system> to = make the new content of <running> valid.
 
JANL: I think this makes sense.
 

=C2=B7         The = potential NBC issue behind this principle: If the "resolve-system" = parameter is not given by the client, the server MUST NOT modify = <running> in any way not specified by the client.

BALAZS2: I very = strongly oppose this restriction because it is: a bad idea, = unenforceable, NBC and would be a problem for other SDOs.
 

JANL: I could accept watering down MUST NOT to SHOULD = NOT.
BALAZS3: = Sorry, I know system-set data has its problems, but my arguments still = stand.

[Qiufang] SHOULD NOT is fine from my perspective.

=C2=B7         Will = the update of <system> be reflected into <running>? If not, = will this cause an invalid <running> datastore?

BALAZS2: I see this = similar as an upgrade problem. Following RFC7950 section 11 rules: = During an upgrade you may obsolete a schema node, this remove it, or you = may add a default value. Both changes may make an existing configuration = invalid. System configuration should also be changed only very carefully = because it may cause an invalid configuration, in which case the change = to system-configuration probably should be rejected / not-allowed. =  
 

JANL: At system upgrade, I think autoconfig (system modifying = its own configuration) is acceptable. Such changes could be seen as = actions made by a system-internal client.

Automatic = updates in running is a tricky problem. E.g. will you remove = configuration of an interface if the HW is removed? There might be a lot = of data nodes configured based on it. There might be leafrefs pointing = at the interface.
[Qiufang] Agreed. Automatic updates in = running when the system configuration changes should not be allowed. If = the intention is to override a value of a system-defined node(the = system-defined node is modifiable and has several dynamic default = values), any update to the data node may not be cared to sync into = <running>. The client can subscribe the <system> update, and = determine itself whether any update should be reflected into = <running>.
 
JANL: As many of you know, I'm not particularly happy about = such changes (I prefer the configuration to be left intact, but the oper = state to change to down/hardware-missing, etc) but if someone insists, = these situations too could be seen as management operations executed = over a different protocol (the = operator-manipulates-the-hardware-protocol). In this case the = system-internal client making config updates is responsible for ensuring = running stays valid at all times.
BALAZS3:  I see this similar to an upgrade. At time of = an upgrade or system-config changes you may need to adjust your = configuration. E.g. confd does that. IMHO changing the = system-configuration is just as serious matter as an upgrade. It should = happen rarely and be done carefully. I don=E2=80=99t have a strong = opinion about this yet, but I feel we should describe whatever should be = happening.
 
In section 1) = we indicate automatically updating the interfaces depending on HW = changes.  I would REALLY !!!!! like a detailed description of this = use-case. That would help me understand our plans better.
[Qiufang] = I think that Appendix A has already defined some of the related use = cases.
As I understand
when an interface is plugged in
- it will be automatically =  created in <system> with list-entry, name, type.
- <running> will NOT be updated = automatically
The = client might copy over the created :system:/interfaces/interface into = <running>
The = client may use resolve-system property to implicitly copy over the = :system:/interfaces/interface into <running>
[Qiufang] = True, but note that the configuration will only be copied into = <running> when there is a leafref refers to an existing interface, = to make <running> valid.
Can a client set a different type to = :running:/interfaces/interface[name=3Dif0]/type then what is = automatically set in :system:/interfaces/interface[name=3Dif0]/type = ?
- If yes, that might = lead to confusion, misconfiguration (might use an operationalState leaf = to indicate this)
- if no, = this is a constraint between 2 datastores that needs to be cleanly = explained in the draft and specified in the model
[Qiufang] = No, the client cannot set an different value for an immutable system = configuration in <running>. I think the draft has already = mentioned this: =E2=80=9CIf a system configuration node is = non-modifiable, then writing a different value for that node in = <running> MUST return an error.=E2=80=9D
One idea for this would be to introduce = a new value for the immutable flag (in the other draft) for the schema = node =E2=80=9Csystem-defined-value=E2=80=9D meaning that the value in = <running> and/or <candidate> MUST be the same as the value = in <system> (if system datastore is supported) otherwise the same = as in <operational> (if that system datastore is not supported but = operational is) or the same as a system defined value documented in an = implementation specific manner (if neither system nor operational is = supported).
[Qiufang] I think immutable flag work has covered this, the = only difference is that immutable is defined as annotation in the = current draft, not a schema.
Once interface[name=3Dif0] is correctly configured in = <system> and <running> what happens if
- the system decides to change the = type of the interface? (e.g. swapping between 2 interface card) Will = that impact the running configuration? Some parts of configuration maybe = meaningless or incorrect for the new interface type. So it is = potentially more than just an operationalState=3Ddown.
 
- the interface card = is removed?
          &nb= sp;    -- remove the = :running:/interfaces/interface[name=3Dif0] subtree which might make some = leaf-ref invalid
          &nb= sp;    -- always have an operational-state attribute that = indicates that either that the substree of the configuration is down or = that it is incorrect. The user will need to either delete the subtree = via netconf/restconf/cli or update it to make the configuration correct. = The second might be a better idea because it retains the user input = configuration, it also handles the changed type use-case. However how do = we enforce this rule about operational-state?
[Qiufang] The related configuration should not be removed =
from <running> automatically. NMDA has already defined this =
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8342#section-5.3.2=
):
=E2=80=9D we allow configuration for missing resources to exist in =
<running> and
<intended>, but = it will not appear in <operational>.=E2=80=9D
To be general, I think any system configuration being deleted = from <system> should not cause it to be deleted from = <running> automatically(if it exists in <running>), given it = is very likely that it has already been referenced.
 
Please = see more reply below.
 
 
Best Regards,
/jan
 
 
 
From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Bal=C3=A1zs = Lengyel
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 = 2:47 AM
To: 'netmod@ietf.org' <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] Balazs Review of = draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02
 
Hello,
I did a detailed review of the system = draft. My comments questions are below.
Regards Balazs
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 
General)
I think this work is important and valuable, but it needs = quite a lot improvements.
 
The term system-configuration is used confusingly. Does 
system-configuration reside in the <system> datastore = only or can it
reside in the <running> datastore = too? If system-configuration is copied by
the client (<get-data>+<edit-config>) into the = <running> datastore is it
still = system-configuration? It is set by the client this time not the = system.
[Qiufang] Yes, I agree.
System configuration is provided by the device in = <system> datastore, though I think it may also be present in = <operational> with origin=3D=E2=80=9Dsystem=E2=80=9D.
If it is copied/pasted into <running>, the copied = configuration in <running> should not be called as =E2=80=9Csystem = configuration=E2=80=9D.
But I think it=E2=80=99s = okay to say something like =E2=80=9Ccopy system configuration into = <running>=E2=80=9D, the object to be copied is system = configuration which is defined in <system>.
BALAZS2: So the = definition of system-config is:
System configuration:  = Configuration that is provided by the system itself. It is the = configuration that is stored in the <system> datastore or the = configuration data stored in the <operational> datastore with = origin=3Dsystem.
[Qiufang]  Would the following definition = be better?
System configuration:   Configuration that is = provided by the system itself.  System configuration is present in = <system> once it's created, regardless of being applied by the = device.  Applied system configuration also appears in = <operational> with origin=3D"system".
This means that 
Some terminology is needed to indicate that you mean a = specific data node
IN A SPECIFIC DATASTORE. The same data = node (according to the path in the
data tree) in different = datastores need to be referenced separately.
[Qiufang]Cross-datastores references is not the intention = here.
Any suggestions to make it clear or what does the = terminology looks like in your mind?
 
Does the solution allow = conditional system configuration? 
(E.g.,  if the client creates an OSPF interface the = system inserts a child leaf into it)
[Qiufang] Yes, it does. System = configurations which are provided and activated based on specific = conditions being met in a system, it is defined as = =E2=80=9CConditionally-Active system configuration=E2=80=9D.
 
1.1) If system shares the = same schema as running that would force it to
populate mandatory nodes.  That might be a problem. 
State that mandatory or min-elements might not be enforced in = <system>.
[Qiufang] I think that mandatory or min/max-elements = nodes should be enforced in <system>. There should be no = exceptions.
What=E2=80=99s the problem that you think might = happen?
1.3) =E2=80=9Cclient may overwrite = values of configurations defined in <system>=E2=80=9D
However it also states: The contents of <system> = datastore are read-only
These seem to contradict. = Please clarify.
[Qiufang]It is confusing, indeed. When it says the = contents of <system> datastore are read-only, I mean = <system> is a read-only datastore, e.g., an <edit-config> = operation towards <system> should be refused.  But the client = can overwrite values of configurations defined in <system> by = writing new values in <running>, which will take precedence over = initial values set by the system.
How about = this:
OLD:=E2=80=9D client may overwrite values = of configurations defined in <system>=E2=80=9D
NEW:=E2=80=9Cclient may overwrite values of = configurations defined in <system> by configuring the intended values in = <running>.=E2=80=9D
BALAZS2:
New is good, but use the word override instead of = overwrite. We don=E2=80=99t actually change the existing values, rather = providing another value in <running> that will have = precedence.
[Qiufang] Sure, thanks.
1.4) Shoudn't copy-config = also be effected? Copy-config 
might also need system configured items. It should be = mentioned that the same
"resolution" is also = needed after a node-restart.
[Qiufang] Are you suggesting to augment = copy-config with =E2=80=9Cresolve-system=E2=80=9D parameter = also?
This operation is used to replace = the target configuration, so you also want the server to write missing = referenced system nodes automatically after the full = replacement.
But is this still a = =E2=80=9Ccopy-config=E2=80=9D? Copy usually means the same to me. Do you = have any use cases in your mind?
I think we need further discussion, or let=E2=80=99s see if = anyone has any other comments on this.
BALAZS2: IMO yes. If = you copy a complete configuration from a file to running, you will still = need parts of <system> to make the new content of <running> = valid. If you think of conditional-system-configuration the above is = specially true.
[Qiufang]Noted.
What does populate mean? = Is it the same as "copy from system to running" ? If
yes please use that terminology. Populate is not as = specific.
[Qiufang] Sure, thanks. I will = reword it.
 
2) In the subchapters (and later) you use the terms provided, = activated, applied. I am not
sure what this means. Is a = not yet applied item present in the <system>
datastore or only when it is applied? If I do a get-data on = <system>
will I receive not-applied data = nodes?
[Qiufang] This might be confusing. = I will try to define/delete these terms, if they are not defined in = NMDA.
A data item will be present in = <system> once it is provided by the system, regardless of whether = it is applied.
Note that NMDA already = defines the term =E2=80=9Capplied configuration=E2=80=9D, which is = configuration that is actively in use by a device.
=E2=80=9CActivated=E2=80=9D should be removed and replaced = with =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D.
What is the difference between an applied and an activated = data node and an
applied but not activated data = node?
[Qiufang]I think there is no = difference, both mean that the configuration is in use by a server. Or = maybe you want to ask what is the difference between a generated and = applied data node and an generated but not applied data node? Regardless = it is applied immediately when it=E2=80=99s generated, once system = configuration is generated, it will appear in <system>. System = configuration that are not applied yet is unlikely to appear in = <operational>, but it may also depend on the device = implementation.
I would rather see = terminology like:
- is present in the <system> = datastore
- is not yet present in the = <system> datastore, but the system will create it
in the <system> datastore when a condition is = fulfilled.
[Qiufang]Sure, will try to make it = clear in next version.
How is it defined for = specific schema nodes which kind of system-data it is ?
Free English text? 
Is it needed to define this formally or is it enough if the = server knows this?
[Qiufang] Current draft doesn=E2=80=99= t define any specific schema to indicate which kind of system-data it = is.
Although this work tries to explore = all different kinds of system configuration, I don=E2=80=99t see a = compelling reason to define a dedicated schema to identify each = kind.
But I think that the client can = understand each kind of system configuration by some ways, e.g., = Configuration which is only present in <system> and not = <operational> is  inactive-until-referenced, and = configuration which is generated and present in <system> when a = specific feature is enabled is conditionally-active system = configuration.
2.2) Isn't the best = example for this, when the functionality is licensed and
the license key is inserted?
[Qiufang]Sec.2.2 gives two examples for conditionally-active = system configuration, one for hardware-related resource condition = driven, and the other for software-related functionality resource = driven. 
Are=
 you saying that QoS is not a good example? There used to be some =
discussion, I think we all agree that when QoS feature is enabled, QoS =
related system configuration will be generated. But licensing a =
functionality could also be the case from my perspective. 
=E2=80=9C=
I agree there can be dynamically added system config (e.g. =
create a new qos policy, and some queue list entries are automatically =
created inside that policy).=E2=80=9D
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/ERmwCg6fVkPtbYn_Vk= cgf9J6dJU/
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/919hV5ql3aI87ymvmb= QX4yPwWCs/    
3.1) <factory-default> is also read-only so why is that = better to store
deletable data ? Did you mean that = system-config originated data cannot be
delete even if it is copied over to running? Is that true = both for explicit
NBI originated copy and copy due to = resolve-system?
[Qiufang]I believe that this was = discussed both on the mail list and at NETMOD's interim meeting last = October.
A client can configure/override a = system-instantiated object in <running>, it can also delete it = from <running>( and I agree with you that once it=E2=80=99s = present in <running> we cannot call it =E2=80=9Csystem = configuration=E2=80=9D actually, and the value initialized by = the system is overwritten even it=E2=80=99s the same value).
But anyway the contents defined in <system> will be = merged into <intended> and <operational>. Therefore there is = no way to delete a system configuration which is defined in = <system>.
But <factory-default> = can be used to initialize <running>, and once it=E2=80=99s deleted = from <running>, it is totally deleted from the device.
And to answer your question, yes, system configuration = defined in <system> cannot be deleted even it is copied over to = running, it=E2=80=99s true both for explicit copy and copy due to = resolve-system parameter.
3.2) If something was = populated/copied over to running/candidate will/should
any changed system values be copied over again thereby = updating the
running/candidate datastores?
Can this result in the running becoming invalid?
[Qiufang]Are you asking will any changes in <system> be = reflected into <running>/<candidate>?
That=E2=80=99s a good question! Currently I suppose no, and I = don=E2=80=99t think that will result in <running> becoming = invalid, since the contents in <running> keep = unchanged.
On the contrary, I think if the = update being reflected into <running> MAY cause <running> to = be invalid.
I don=E2=80=99t think all the = update in <system> datastore should be reflected into = <running>, e.g., an intentional override operation should not care = the updated system-instantiated leaf instance value.
Since this document defines a <system> datastore, the = client can use YANG notification to aware any system configuration = updates, and reflect the update into <running> by itself if = needed. Does this make sense? 
 
4.1)  You write 
"The client may reference nodes defined in <system>, = overwrite values
   of configurations defined = in <system>"
IMHO the data nodes in <running> = and <system> are 2 different things even
if they reside on the same path in the data tree. You need to = find
terminology to differentiate between = the same(-path) data nodes in different
datastores. The current terminology is confusing, I need to = guess which
datastore you mean. I think this = guessing process might hide problems.
Do you mean here: "The client may reference nodes defined in = <system> if they are
copied into = <running>/<candidate> as a result of an explicit copy or
resolve-system parameter." For me referencing a data node in = running and
referencing a data node in = <system> (even if they share the same address in
the data tree) are 2 separate things. I don't think you want = to create a
reference that point between = datastores.
Do you mean here: "overwrite values of = the data nodes that were created by
copying from the = <system> datastore."
[Qiufang] Maybe I=E2=80=99ve = caused some confusion.
Forget the <system> = datastore for the moment. The client usually has the desire to reference = a system-defined node, or overwrite values of system configurations, = right?
The <operational> datastore = only contains those which are actively in use, there is no standard = mechanism for the client to see what system configuration is available = in a server.
<system> is defined as a = standard mechanism to allow the client to retrieve system configuration. = So that it can reference/overwrite system configuration, by the client = writing configuration to <running> that overrides/copies the = system configuration in <system>. 
<system> is only defined to retrieve available system = configuration.
"<running> MAY = overwrite and/or extend <system>" this means that the
data nodes in system are modified although they are = readOnly.
Is this what you mean? Clarify!
[Qiufang] <system> itself is read-only. Any attempts to = modification (e.g., <edit-config>) towards <system> = datastore should be rejected.
But = this doesn=E2=80=99t mean there is no way to overwrite/extend system = configuration. Sec4.4 illustrates the details about overwriting and = addition.
I will see how to make it clear in = the next version.
BALAZS2: Again  as I understand it: we do not = overwrite system configuration, we might overwrite data nodes in running = that were originally copied from the <system> datastore.
[Qiufang]I = am worried that we are paying excessive attention to the wording. The = system initializes a value which the client does not like, and the = client uses an <edit-config> to configure the desired value into = <running>. <operational> will show that data with = origin=3D=E2=80=9Dintended=E2=80=9D. Isn't this overriding the system = configuration? Actually, a system-initialized configuration is = overriden.
 
"Note that only <system> aware = clients copy
   referenced system nodes = from <system>"
How does the server know if the client = is system-aware? It would be better to
state something like:
'In order for the system = configuration to affect validation the client needs to
either use the resolve-system parameter or explicitly copy = system configuration
into running'
[Qiufang]Yes, the draft =
already says something similar to your proposal. 
Sec4.1:=E2=80=9D Clients MUST =
either
   explicitly configure system-defined nodes in =
<running> or use the
   "resolve-system" =
parameter.=E2=80=9D
 
Last para: The server has no way to = know if the client is system aware. Once
the data nodes are copied into <running> there is no = need to say more.
[Qiufang] There is no need for the = server to understand if the client is <system> aware.
But I=E2=80=99ll think it important to state in the draft = that the copied configuration driven by the =E2=80=9Cresolve-system=E2=80=9D= will also be returned in a read back of <running> datastore, and = this behavior also applies to legacy clients, to avoid any NBC = issues.
4.2
"If the = "resolve-system" parameter is not given by the client, the server
   MUST NOT modify <running> in any way not = specified by the client."
I very strongly = OBJECT. 
- It is a bad idea. 
- This is a big NBC change to Netconf/YANG. 
- Other SDOs (3GPP, O-RAN) depend on the capability to modify = <running>. They
have data nodes where it = is stated that list entries are not created by the client.
- This would need a revision 2 of YANG.
- It is also unenforceable. It would be possible to work = around it.
The system instantiates an onboard = client to do the changes AND the system
prohibits the change for other clients.
However this is just a more complicated way of stating that = the system itself
modifies running; we gain nothing but = make the world more complicated.
[Qiufang]When we first = start this work, a lot of folks agree that clients will benefit from a = server which will not do anything the client doesn=E2=80=99t explicitly = ask for.
We usually want a read-back of = <running> contains only what was explicitly sent by the clients. = This even used to be one of the objectives stated in the = draft.
But I=E2=80=99ve seen your points = here. Let=E2=80=99s see if there is any other comments or suggestions. = Otherwise I=E2=80=99d prefer to change this with a recommendation = behavior.
4.3
Paragraph-1 sentence = 2 & 3 are trivial thus not needed. If you configure
something in running it becomes part of running independent = of this draft.
[Qiufang] Yes, I agree. These can = be removed.
Mention that the system itself  = can also copy over parts or the complete
system configuration into running. 
[Qiufang] Sure, will do, thanks!
4.4
In some cases, a server may allow some = parts of system configuration
   to be = modified.  List keys in system configuration can't be changed
   by a client, but other descendant nodes in a = list entry may be
   modifiable or = non-modifiable.
   
 This contradicts the statement that the <system> = datastore is readOnly.
[Qiufang] See my = clarification above, will see how to refine this statement.
"Client configuration statements in <running> take = precedence over system
configuration nodes in = <system>"
 
Instead of hiding this sentence in the middle of a = subchapter, there should be
a separate chapter about = merging running and system into intended, stating that running has = precedence.
This a tier 1 important statement !
There could be some interesting corner cases.
[Qiufang] Okay, noted.
Once the data is in running, AFAIK the knowledge about why is = it there is lost,
so terms like "client configuration" = are hard to understand. That sounds more
like a use-case than a rule.
[Qiufang] Sure, I will just say =E2=80=9Cconfiguration = defined in <running>=E2=80=9D. Is this better?
BALAZS2: = Yes
"While modifying (overriding) system = configuration nodes may be
   supported by = a server, there is no mechanism for deleting a system
   configuration node."
   
Once the node is in the <running> datastore if it is = not mandatory it is
possible to remove it. What prevents = it? What if it was the client that copied
the configuration into <running>? Is the client = forbidden to remove something
that it created itself? I = don't think so.
[Qiufang] No, the client is not = forbidden to remove something that it created itself.
But even the node is removed from <running>, what=E2=80=99= s defined in <system> datastore can still be merged into = <intended> and applied by the device.
Thus there is no mechanism for deleting a system = configuration node from the device=E2=80=99s perspective. Make = sense?
BALAZS2: Makes sense and I agree, but I = would propose the wording:
"While modifying = (overriding) system configuration with data nodes in the <running> = datastore may be
   supported by a server, = there is no mechanism for deleting a
   = configuration node from the <system> datastore."
 
5.
"datastore does not have = to persist across reboots."
'I would say: The content = of the datastore is removed at reboot and
re-created by the system with the same or changed = content.'
IMHO it is important to state that = there will be some reasonable content in the
<system> datastore even if it might have changed.
[Qiufang] Sure. What I have mentioned in the draft is that = reboots will cause the contents of <system> to be lost.
I did not mention something in the draft that reboots will = also cause contents change in the <system> datastore after = re-loading/re-creating. But this is obviously true from my = perspective.
BALAZS2: The re-0creation of (some) system configuration is = what I am missing after a reboot.
7.1
"Comment: How does a RESTCONF client = know if the RESTCONF server
   implements = the "resolve-system" parameter?"
Make it a capability in = the hello message like with-defaults.
[Qiufang] I am thinking =
that maybe no need to define a capability identifier, and YANG library =
can also help for RESTCONF client.
RFC8527 says that an NMDA-compliant RESTCONF server MUST =
support the <operational> datastore and MUST implement the =
ietf-yang-library module.
It =
also states:
=E2=80=9D=
   A RESTCONF client can discover which datastores and YANG =
modules the
   server supports by reading the YANG library =
information from the
   operational state datastore.=E2=80=9D
Make sense?
BALAZS2: Not yet. The resolve-system parameter might be =
supported without a <system> datastore as I understand. =
True?
SO does the support for the YANG =
module indicate the support for the resolve-system parameter? Isn=E2=80=99=
t that an overkill to use YANG modules to indicate support for a =
protocol capability? It might work, but is that the right way to do =
it?
[Qiufang] Yes, I just realize that there is no =
YANG module for RESTCONF resolve-system parameter. RFC8040 has defined a =
set of RESTCONF capability URIs to identify the query parameters =
supported by the server, it makes sense to define and register another =
capability identifier for RESTCONF resolve-system parameter. Thanks, =
balazs.
 
Best Regards,
Qiufang
7.2
The placement of = resolve-system is sometimes incorrect. It shall be inside the
<edit-config> element.
[Qiufang] = Good catch! I=E2=80=99ve fixed in my local version. Thanks, = Balazs.
 
_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
 

= --Apple-Mail=_ADA808B5-826B-4D90-9B5D-C8BC3BA0D42D-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 09:32:01 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894823A0F0A for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 09:31:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sh66bJK9mPo7 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 09:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x112e.google.com (mail-yw1-x112e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4083F3A16A9 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 09:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x112e.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2eba37104a2so68549817b3.0 for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 09:31:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=q27kBRopxARHg9NSlcmtHNdidOvEXwayeWO50ft9pdQ=; b=edFHNhZ9ml4j//e39f/Qp7o3bQxFuXqouo0MyiguyO1xtQQGmMd/1ECsKpvDKef41n u2mcst9iqUYxiRnGDGyZAdcgdJvbWAUZq4LmPC9nS6uNxka3FroB4299zM9r6GZO0BkI 7z7yaVE3kvqm9t9kUq5x1cVxRO/279bcGsboQmfH2oxW0IHwtVdz6QMnAAp3PFEOXZB5 oKRmZOjinPkT5RvWsxoO8oEgVM2AcbBIzUNHkzLhnarY5zkXWR0N01FmAXpDtgqt93c+ R9MMNhPtbQslh/fwQ2JhVCgIYSCAFdl+YzTmladKH7H18BNoFUlgjQv4qscV6UcNnAMT t+VQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=q27kBRopxARHg9NSlcmtHNdidOvEXwayeWO50ft9pdQ=; b=MZpUOzLwOCCEpQk4HSyh+GZmYyT4WeeBqnfY9TWVMmugHPF7Eif/19M9hEMBkyR/Dg XAGmkB0XclIaqILY86Ew9USfU6wTpnEfvfrv0PzCGOw5Et27QsHG+XUyZF1gyU9txIQz bGVlXQwqRreI8kyroMS0CLdBl4k9RR+T4cbOdELla1C0VjKGuCwVz1Qpbpil3ESxmjHn 1sFcQCkUt511HSXXt/JzK6yFgXcEf1dnRlYdOqgYduBIb49j/TvaSiVH0y/RxZUObMfx f98zLOnpoEtJvb7cqs0uoQrL7/bPpIW/KAOiuvHGA8KMt/C8XAuNOpBmWx4jaxlooiu1 kGOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530QW5cX7ngJiT2q40kfzGPLfyEhc5aWHACj87l8UjMm9xN4oxgK OBHf3Q+l0NI2UoAnpP+kz0/QWl+xeSmLksIQ7c7iauxAMys= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwjR/fHaGOx3M46gEHIJTHyifvNbBBdw+k6N4rmgLe8HdXMNQuqS+oyAg/M8QcOonx+s84henkR/5/ZCC4zxes= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:dbce:0:b0:2eb:754e:e223 with SMTP id d197-20020a0ddbce000000b002eb754ee223mr11934363ywe.350.1649349096937; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 09:31:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <20220405153644.w5faspao6qkbq337@anna> <20220405190249.chscwo4m4v4l5xoj@anna> <20220407073452.rslzcxakaqnojedr@anna> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 09:31:26 -0700 Message-ID: To: tom petch Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , =?UTF-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000008b8ab05dc1303de" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 16:32:00 -0000 --00000000000008b8ab05dc1303de Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 9:11 AM tom petch wrote: > From: Lsr on behalf of Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > Sent: 07 April 2022 10:25 > > I basically agree with Acee, and I think that we should do (b): > > b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks > modules where zone indexes are meaningful. > > > > I am concerned that such behaviour will damage the standing of the IETF a= t > large. > > MAY for the client means MUST for the server. But if no servers actually support it, because the YANG does not match the operational requirements, then is it really a MUST requirement? This seems like a bugfix, and the worst thing the IETF could do wrt/ standing is to force the world to change every module that imports the typedef. Since many people were not aware of the full syntax, it is not clear that the WG intent was to include a zone. Seems like a bugfix to a pattern, like we have done several times already. Andy > We clearly laid down rules as to what updates were regarded as compatible > so that authors of software could be confident that their work was robust > and future-proof. We did it with SNMP, inter alia, and we have carried > that forward with YANG. To tear up that understanding , creating who kno= ws > how much disruption, can only harm the standing of IETF. > > Much has been said about how implementations have assumed that the addres= s > types do not include a zone but no evidence has been put forward for that > assertion. > > I have always assumed that software uses libraries and that the libraries > have been written with an understanding of the specifications such that i= f > a zone is received over the wire in conformance with the specification bu= t > where the display, field or such like does not allow for a zone, then, > tolerant of what to accept, the zone is silently discarded and the addres= s > is used without the zone. But, like the assertion that keeping the zone > will cause who knows what damage, I have not done the research to > substantiate that assumption. > > Tom Petch > > I appreciate that this is an NBC change, but I believe that this is the > most intuitive definition and is the best choice longer term. I also not= e > that the base ipv4-address/ipv6-address types in OpenConfig (where they u= se > the OC copy/version of inet-types and not ietf-inet-types) don't allow a > zone to be specified and assumes the default zone. They have separate > types in cases where a zone is allowed to be specified, i.e., aligned to > what (b) proposes. > > For modules that are using/wanting zones (if any), then they can migrate > to the new explicit zone type. draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning= , > if it keeps its import "revision-or-derived" extension, would also allow > such modules to indicate the dependency on the updated revision/definitio= n > of ietf-inet-types.yang. > > Of course, the description associated with the updated > ietf-inet-types.yang revision should clearly highly the > non-backwards-compatible change to the types. > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: iesg On Behalf Of J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw= =C3=A4lder > Sent: 07 April 2022 08:35 > To: Acee Lindem (acee) > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; The IESG ; netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt > > Here is roughly what happened: > > - RFC 6020 (published ~12 years ago) introduced the ip-address > type. It included an optional zone index part since zone indexes > are necessary in certain situations (e.g., configuring services > listening on link-local addresses or clients connecting to services > listening on link-local addresses). > > - RFC 6991 (published ~9 years ago) added the ip-address-no-zone types > since people felt that it is useful to also an ip address type > without the optional zone part for situations where a zone is not > applicable. The name 'ip-address-no-zone' was picked since the name > ip-address was already taken. > > I understand that the names resulting from this evolution of the YANG > module confuse people not looking up the type definitions. Let me note > that using a type allowing for an optional zone for a leaf that never > needs a zone is not a fatal error (its like using an int where a short > is sufficient) while using a type not allowing for a zone for a leaf > that may need zones is a fatal error (using a short where an int is > required) requiring an update of the definition of the leaf to fix. > > What are our options? > > a) Do nothing and accept that types are called as they are. > b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks > modules where zone indexes are meaningful. > c) Deprecate the types and create a new module defining new types > so that modules can opt-in to use better names. > d) Deprecate the -no-zone types and move back to have a single > type for IP addresses. > > Any other options? > > How are we going to pick between them? > > /js > > On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 09:02:23PM +0000, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > > J=C3=BCrgen and netmod WG, +IESG, > > > > It is not just the IETF models that are using the inet:ip-address for > the standard IPv4/IPv6 addresses without zones. Every vendor=E2=80=99s na= tive > models and the OpenConfig models use the base types and expect the standa= rd > IP address notation. If we don=E2=80=99t fix this, it is something that p= eople can > point to as another example of the IETF being out of touch with reality. > > > > I thought about more, and it might make the backward compatibility > easier if we just leave the existing ip-address-no-zone, > ipv4-address-no-zone, and ipv6-address-no-zone types and add *-zone types > for the remote possibility that someone actually wants to include the > zone. In the existing RFC 6991 BIS document, we could merely remove the > zone from the ip-address, ipv4-address, and ipv6-address types and classi= fy > this as we would any other bug fix. While including the zone was the > original intent of the base types, this is what those of us who work on > software products would classify as a requirements bug. > > > > Thanks, > > Acee > > > > From: Andy Bierman > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 3:21 PM > > To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Andy > Bierman , Acee Lindem , "lsr@ietf.org= " > , "netmod@ietf.org" > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 12:02 PM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 10:03:25AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > > The best outcome would be to fix ip-address to not include the zone= , > > > > introduce ip-address-zone, and deprecate ip-address-no-zone. My tak= e > all > > > > the is that all the existing usages do not require zone and this > would be a > > > > fix as opposed to a change. > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think this will harm our implementations. > > > The type is still string. The pattern will change but that is handled > by a > > > library. > > > Whatever pattern is used will get handled the same way. > > > > Either a zone is allowed to be present or it is not, this does make a > > difference, its not a cosmetic change. > > > > > > True. The code will probably accept the pattern then fail trying to use > the string. > > If the client sends the form with a zone. > > > > > > > > > > > The same problem exists for 'date' and 'date-no-zone' types, > > > but they are not used very much. > > > > Perhaps we should call types a, b, c, and so on - this may force > > people to read the descriptions. ;-) > > > > For some reason, the smarter the person, the less likely they are to > > read any of the documentation before using some software. > > I call it the "it should work the way I would design it" phenomenon :-) > > > > You have to admit that Acee's suggestion is more intuitive than the > current > > definitions. > > > > Clearly an NBC change. > > IMO it is more useful to put some YANG extension magic in these specifi= c > typedefs > > than just bumping a major revision number. This is a great use-case for > the version DT. > > > > There probably is no solution path where nobody has to change any YANG > or any code > > and everything still works. > > > > > > > > /js > > > > Andy > > > > -- > > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Bremen= gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > -- > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Bremen g= GmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --00000000000008b8ab05dc1303de Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 9:11 AM tom pe= tch <ietfc@btco= nnect.com> wrote:
From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Rob Wilton (rwilton) <= rwilton=3D4= 0cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: 07 April 2022 10:25

I basically agree with Acee, and I think that we should do (b):

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 b) Change the types as suggested and accept tha= t doing so breaks
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 modules where zone indexes are meaningful.

<tp>

I am concerned that such behaviour will damage the standing of the IETF at = large.


MAY for the client means MUST for the = server.
But if no servers actually support it, because the YANG d= oes not match
the operational requirements, then is it really a M= UST requirement?

This seems like a bugfix, and the= worst thing the IETF could do wrt/ standing
is to force the worl= d to change every module that imports the typedef.
Since many peo= ple were not aware of the full syntax, it is not clear that
the W= G intent was to include a zone.

Seems like a bugfi= x to a pattern, like we have done several times already.

Andy

=C2=A0
We clearly laid down rules as to what updates were regarded as compatible s= o that authors of software could be confident that their work was robust an= d future-proof.=C2=A0 We did it with SNMP, inter alia, and we have carried = that forward with YANG.=C2=A0 To tear up that understanding , creating who = knows how much disruption, can only harm the standing of IETF.

Much has been said about how implementations have assumed that the address = types do not include a zone but no evidence has been put forward for that a= ssertion.

I have always assumed that software uses libraries and that the libraries h= ave been written with an understanding of the specifications such that if a= zone is received over the wire in conformance with the specification but w= here the display, field or such like does not allow for a zone, then, toler= ant of what to accept, the zone is silently discarded and the address is us= ed without the zone.=C2=A0 But, like the assertion that keeping the zone wi= ll cause who knows what damage, I have not done the research to substantiat= e that assumption.

Tom Petch

I appreciate that this is an NBC change, but I believe that this is the mos= t intuitive definition and is the best choice longer term.=C2=A0 I also not= e that the base ipv4-address/ipv6-address types in OpenConfig (where they u= se the OC copy/version of inet-types and not ietf-inet-types) don't all= ow a zone to be specified and assumes the default zone.=C2=A0 They have sep= arate types in cases where a zone is allowed to be specified, i.e., aligned= to what (b) proposes.

For modules that are using/wanting zones (if any), then they can migrate to= the new explicit zone type.=C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-vers= ioning, if it keeps its import "revision-or-derived" extension, w= ould also allow such modules to indicate the dependency on the updated revi= sion/definition of ietf-inet-types.yang.

Of course, the description associated with the updated ietf-inet-types.yang= revision should clearly highly the non-backwards-compatible change to the = types.

Rob


-----Original Message-----
From: iesg <i= esg-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder=
Sent: 07 April 2022 08:35
To: Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; The= IESG <iesg@ietf.org<= /a>>; netmod@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-= yang-10.txt

Here is roughly what happened:

- RFC 6020 (published ~12 years ago) introduced the ip-address
=C2=A0 type. It included an optional zone index part since zone indexes
=C2=A0 are necessary in certain situations (e.g., configuring services
=C2=A0 listening on link-local addresses or clients connecting to services<= br> =C2=A0 listening on link-local addresses).

- RFC 6991 (published ~9 years ago) added the ip-address-no-zone types
=C2=A0 since people felt that it is useful to also an ip address type
=C2=A0 without the optional zone part for situations where a zone is not =C2=A0 applicable. The name 'ip-address-no-zone' was picked since t= he name
=C2=A0 ip-address was already taken.

I understand that the names resulting from this evolution of the YANG
module confuse people not looking up the type definitions. Let me note
that using a type allowing for an optional zone for a leaf that never
needs a zone is not a fatal error (its like using an int where a short
is sufficient) while using a type not allowing for a zone for a leaf
that may need zones is a fatal error (using a short where an int is
required) requiring an update of the definition of the leaf to fix.

What are our options?

a) Do nothing and accept that types are called as they are.
b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks
=C2=A0 =C2=A0modules where zone indexes are meaningful.
c) Deprecate the types and create a new module defining new types
=C2=A0 =C2=A0so that modules can opt-in to use better names.
d) Deprecate the -no-zone types and move back to have a single
=C2=A0 =C2=A0type for IP addresses.

Any other options?

How are we going to pick between them?

/js

On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 09:02:23PM +0000, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote:
> J=C3=BCrgen and netmod WG,=C2=A0 +IESG,
>
> It is not just the IETF models that are using the inet:ip-address for = the standard IPv4/IPv6 addresses without zones. Every vendor=E2=80=99s nati= ve models and the OpenConfig models use the base types and expect the stand= ard IP address notation. If we don=E2=80=99t fix this, it is something that= people can point to as another example of the IETF being out of touch with= reality.
>
> I thought about more, and it might make the backward compatibility eas= ier if we just leave the existing ip-address-no-zone, ipv4-address-no-zone,= and ipv6-address-no-zone types and add *-zone types for the remote possibi= lity that someone actually wants to include the zone.=C2=A0 In the existing= RFC 6991 BIS document, we could merely remove the zone from the ip-address= , ipv4-address, and ipv6-address types and classify this as we would any ot= her bug fix. While including the zone was the original intent of the base t= ypes, this is what those of us who work on software products would classify= as a requirements bug.
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
>
> From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 3:21 PM
> To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de&= gt;, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, Acee Lindem <acee@cisco.com>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended= -lsa-yang-10.txt
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 12:02 PM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <= j= .schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-uni= versity.de>> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 10:03:25AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > >
> > > The best outcome would be to fix ip-address to not include t= he zone,
> > > introduce ip-address-zone, and deprecate ip-address-no-zone.= My take all
> > > the is that all the existing usages do not require zone and = this would be a
> > > fix as opposed to a change.
> > >
> > >
> > I don't think this will harm our implementations.
> > The type is still string. The pattern will change but that is han= dled by a
> > library.
> > Whatever pattern is used will get handled the same way.
>
> Either a zone is allowed to be present or it is not, this does make a<= br> > difference, its not a cosmetic change.
>
>
> True. The code will probably accept the pattern then fail trying to us= e the string.
> If the client sends the form with a zone.
>
>
>
>
> > The same problem exists for 'date' and 'date-no-zone&= #39; types,
> > but they are not used very much.
>
> Perhaps we should call types a, b, c, and so on - this may force
> people to read the descriptions. ;-)
>
> For some reason, the smarter the person, the less likely they are to > read any of the documentation before using some software.
> I call it the "it should work the way I would design it" phe= nomenon :-)
>
> You have to admit that Acee's suggestion is more intuitive than th= e current
> definitions.
>
> Clearly an NBC change.
> IMO it is more useful to put some YANG extension magic in these specif= ic typedefs
> than just bumping a major revision number. This is a great use-case fo= r the version DT.
>
> There probably is no solution path where nobody has to change any YANG= or any code
> and everything still works.
>
>
>
> /js
>
> Andy
>
> --
> J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1= | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= ;https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--
J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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4C7QLYG1h1Dfd/DUCO7elmjfomxiG3mje26ZfLJqU8hfIutqRl9c1ZqsYzuh6HRRi3 DX8ZbHveXYswSN17p/aREZYnV3ubOUljwkrD485Y= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.21.218] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KZ7P54PkKz1nsBV; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 10:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4929b967-1832-d5ef-7dba-982375089d4e@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:17:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" References: <20220407.190102.216707636489534894.id@4668.se> <12326A10-EB1D-4477-B1D2-BF98A4DD31DE@cisco.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <12326A10-EB1D-4477-B1D2-BF98A4DD31DE@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 17:17:53 -0000 Acee, I am missing something basic. It seems to me that it would be very wrong for the LSR YANG module to demand a change to an important type because it turns out that type doesn't mean what LSR thought it meant. Such an error is LSR's problem, not the underlying modules. There seem to be two fixes. If it is for some reason imperitive to us the same typedef we have been using, then put in text / patterns / restrictions saying that this model MUST NOT use the scope field. More reasonably, use a different typedef in this model. Yours, Joel On 4/7/2022 1:04 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Hi Martin, > > On 4/7/22, 1:02 PM, "netmod on behalf of Martin Björklund" wrote: > > Andy Bierman wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 9:11 AM tom petch wrote: > > > > > From: Lsr on behalf of Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > > > > > Sent: 07 April 2022 10:25 > > > > > > I basically agree with Acee, and I think that we should do (b): > > > > > > b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks > > > modules where zone indexes are meaningful. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am concerned that such behaviour will damage the standing of the IETF at > > > large. > > > > > > > > MAY for the client means MUST for the server. > > I'm not sure what you mean here. > > But I'm also not sure I understand what the real problem is. Just b/c > the type allows a zone doesn't mean that all leafs that use this type > MUST support a zone. Compare with the value "0.0.0.0". It is a legal > value according to the pattern, but it will not be valid in all places > where this type is used. And even when an implementation supports > zones, it will not accept all legal (according to the pattern) values > for the zone index. Perhaps the solution is to explain this > better in the description? > > > > But if no servers actually support it, because the YANG does not match > > the operational requirements, then is it really a MUST requirement? > > > > This seems like a bugfix, and the worst thing the IETF could do wrt/ > > standing > > is to force the world to change every module that imports the typedef. > > Since many people were not aware of the full syntax, it is not clear that > > the WG intent was to include a zone. > > It is pretty clear IMO that this was not a mistake. The text > explicitly says: > > The IPv4 address may include a zone > index, separated by a % sign. > > > > > Seems like a bugfix to a pattern, like we have done several times already. > > I don't think this is a bugfix. > > A bugfix for the requirements for the base types that requires fixing the pattern and description. > > Acee > > > /martin > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > We clearly laid down rules as to what updates were regarded as compatible > > > so that authors of software could be confident that their work was robust > > > and future-proof. We did it with SNMP, inter alia, and we have carried > > > that forward with YANG. To tear up that understanding , creating who knows > > > how much disruption, can only harm the standing of IETF. > > > > > > Much has been said about how implementations have assumed that the address > > > types do not include a zone but no evidence has been put forward for that > > > assertion. > > > > > > I have always assumed that software uses libraries and that the libraries > > > have been written with an understanding of the specifications such that if > > > a zone is received over the wire in conformance with the specification but > > > where the display, field or such like does not allow for a zone, then, > > > tolerant of what to accept, the zone is silently discarded and the address > > > is used without the zone. But, like the assertion that keeping the zone > > > will cause who knows what damage, I have not done the research to > > > substantiate that assumption. > > > > > > Tom Petch > > > > > > I appreciate that this is an NBC change, but I believe that this is the > > > most intuitive definition and is the best choice longer term. I also note > > > that the base ipv4-address/ipv6-address types in OpenConfig (where they use > > > the OC copy/version of inet-types and not ietf-inet-types) don't allow a > > > zone to be specified and assumes the default zone. They have separate > > > types in cases where a zone is allowed to be specified, i.e., aligned to > > > what (b) proposes. > > > > > > For modules that are using/wanting zones (if any), then they can migrate > > > to the new explicit zone type. draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning, > > > if it keeps its import "revision-or-derived" extension, would also allow > > > such modules to indicate the dependency on the updated revision/definition > > > of ietf-inet-types.yang. > > > > > > Of course, the description associated with the updated > > > ietf-inet-types.yang revision should clearly highly the > > > non-backwards-compatible change to the types. > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: iesg On Behalf Of Jürgen Schönwälder > > > Sent: 07 April 2022 08:35 > > > To: Acee Lindem (acee) > > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; The IESG ; netmod@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > > > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt > > > > > > Here is roughly what happened: > > > > > > - RFC 6020 (published ~12 years ago) introduced the ip-address > > > type. It included an optional zone index part since zone indexes > > > are necessary in certain situations (e.g., configuring services > > > listening on link-local addresses or clients connecting to services > > > listening on link-local addresses). > > > > > > - RFC 6991 (published ~9 years ago) added the ip-address-no-zone types > > > since people felt that it is useful to also an ip address type > > > without the optional zone part for situations where a zone is not > > > applicable. The name 'ip-address-no-zone' was picked since the name > > > ip-address was already taken. > > > > > > I understand that the names resulting from this evolution of the YANG > > > module confuse people not looking up the type definitions. Let me note > > > that using a type allowing for an optional zone for a leaf that never > > > needs a zone is not a fatal error (its like using an int where a short > > > is sufficient) while using a type not allowing for a zone for a leaf > > > that may need zones is a fatal error (using a short where an int is > > > required) requiring an update of the definition of the leaf to fix. > > > > > > What are our options? > > > > > > a) Do nothing and accept that types are called as they are. > > > b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks > > > modules where zone indexes are meaningful. > > > c) Deprecate the types and create a new module defining new types > > > so that modules can opt-in to use better names. > > > d) Deprecate the -no-zone types and move back to have a single > > > type for IP addresses. > > > > > > Any other options? > > > > > > How are we going to pick between them? > > > > > > /js > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 09:02:23PM +0000, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > > > > Jürgen and netmod WG, +IESG, > > > > > > > > It is not just the IETF models that are using the inet:ip-address for > > > the standard IPv4/IPv6 addresses without zones. Every vendor’s native > > > models and the OpenConfig models use the base types and expect the standard > > > IP address notation. If we don’t fix this, it is something that people can > > > point to as another example of the IETF being out of touch with reality. > > > > > > > > I thought about more, and it might make the backward compatibility > > > easier if we just leave the existing ip-address-no-zone, > > > ipv4-address-no-zone, and ipv6-address-no-zone types and add *-zone types > > > for the remote possibility that someone actually wants to include the > > > zone. In the existing RFC 6991 BIS document, we could merely remove the > > > zone from the ip-address, ipv4-address, and ipv6-address types and classify > > > this as we would any other bug fix. While including the zone was the > > > original intent of the base types, this is what those of us who work on > > > software products would classify as a requirements bug. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Acee > > > > > > > > From: Andy Bierman > > > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 3:21 PM > > > > To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Andy > > > Bierman , Acee Lindem , "lsr@ietf.org" > > > , "netmod@ietf.org" > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > > > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 12:02 PM Jürgen Schönwälder < > > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote: > > > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 10:03:25AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The best outcome would be to fix ip-address to not include the zone, > > > > > > introduce ip-address-zone, and deprecate ip-address-no-zone. My take > > > all > > > > > > the is that all the existing usages do not require zone and this > > > would be a > > > > > > fix as opposed to a change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think this will harm our implementations. > > > > > The type is still string. The pattern will change but that is handled > > > by a > > > > > library. > > > > > Whatever pattern is used will get handled the same way. > > > > > > > > Either a zone is allowed to be present or it is not, this does make a > > > > difference, its not a cosmetic change. > > > > > > > > > > > > True. The code will probably accept the pattern then fail trying to use > > > the string. > > > > If the client sends the form with a zone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same problem exists for 'date' and 'date-no-zone' types, > > > > > but they are not used very much. > > > > > > > > Perhaps we should call types a, b, c, and so on - this may force > > > > people to read the descriptions. ;-) > > > > > > > > For some reason, the smarter the person, the less likely they are to > > > > read any of the documentation before using some software. > > > > I call it the "it should work the way I would design it" phenomenon :-) > > > > > > > > You have to admit that Acee's suggestion is more intuitive than the > > > current > > > > definitions. > > > > > > > > Clearly an NBC change. > > > > IMO it is more useful to put some YANG extension magic in these specific > > > typedefs > > > > than just bumping a major revision number. This is a great use-case for > > > the version DT. > > > > > > > > There probably is no solution path where nobody has to change any YANG > > > or any code > > > > and everything still works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /js > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > > > > -- > > > Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Lsr mailing list > > > Lsr@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > netmod mailing list > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr From nobody Thu Apr 7 10:18:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B7333A1154 for ; 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Thu, 07 Apr 2022 10:18:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220407.190102.216707636489534894.id@4668.se> In-Reply-To: <20220407.190102.216707636489534894.id@4668.se> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 10:17:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_Bj=C3=B6rklund?= Cc: "t.petch" , lsr@ietf.org, NetMod WG , Robert Wilton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000089f9ac05dc13a9b5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 17:18:23 -0000 --00000000000089f9ac05dc13a9b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 10:01 AM Martin Bj=C3=B6rklund wr= ote: > Andy Bierman wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 9:11 AM tom petch wrote: > > > > > From: Lsr on behalf of Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > > > > > Sent: 07 April 2022 10:25 > > > > > > I basically agree with Acee, and I think that we should do (b): > > > > > > b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so > breaks > > > modules where zone indexes are meaningful. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am concerned that such behaviour will damage the standing of the > IETF at > > > large. > > > > > > > > MAY for the client means MUST for the server. > > I'm not sure what you mean here. > > But I'm also not sure I understand what the real problem is. Just b/c > the type allows a zone doesn't mean that all leafs that use this type > MUST support a zone. Compare with the value "0.0.0.0". It is a legal > value according to the pattern, but it will not be valid in all places > where this type is used. And even when an implementation supports > zones, it will not accept all legal (according to the pattern) values > for the zone index. Perhaps the solution is to explain this > better in the description? > > > > But if no servers actually support it, because the YANG does not match > > the operational requirements, then is it really a MUST requirement? > > > > This seems like a bugfix, and the worst thing the IETF could do wrt/ > > standing > > is to force the world to change every module that imports the typedef. > > Since many people were not aware of the full syntax, it is not clear th= at > > the WG intent was to include a zone. > > It is pretty clear IMO that this was not a mistake. The text > explicitly says: > > The IPv4 address may include a zone > index, separated by a % sign. > > > > > Seems like a bugfix to a pattern, like we have done several times > already. > > I don't think this is a bugfix. > > So no change is needed? Is it an 'invalid-value' if the pattern accepts the string? The server can return 'operation-failed' or 'operation-not-supported' at any time already. The server is not supposed to ignore the extra characters though. > /martin > > Andy > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > We clearly laid down rules as to what updates were regarded as > compatible > > > so that authors of software could be confident that their work was > robust > > > and future-proof. We did it with SNMP, inter alia, and we have carri= ed > > > that forward with YANG. To tear up that understanding , creating who > knows > > > how much disruption, can only harm the standing of IETF. > > > > > > Much has been said about how implementations have assumed that the > address > > > types do not include a zone but no evidence has been put forward for > that > > > assertion. > > > > > > I have always assumed that software uses libraries and that the > libraries > > > have been written with an understanding of the specifications such > that if > > > a zone is received over the wire in conformance with the specificatio= n > but > > > where the display, field or such like does not allow for a zone, then= , > > > tolerant of what to accept, the zone is silently discarded and the > address > > > is used without the zone. But, like the assertion that keeping the > zone > > > will cause who knows what damage, I have not done the research to > > > substantiate that assumption. > > > > > > Tom Petch > > > > > > I appreciate that this is an NBC change, but I believe that this is t= he > > > most intuitive definition and is the best choice longer term. I also > note > > > that the base ipv4-address/ipv6-address types in OpenConfig (where > they use > > > the OC copy/version of inet-types and not ietf-inet-types) don't allo= w > a > > > zone to be specified and assumes the default zone. They have separat= e > > > types in cases where a zone is allowed to be specified, i.e., aligned > to > > > what (b) proposes. > > > > > > For modules that are using/wanting zones (if any), then they can > migrate > > > to the new explicit zone type. > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning, > > > if it keeps its import "revision-or-derived" extension, would also > allow > > > such modules to indicate the dependency on the updated > revision/definition > > > of ietf-inet-types.yang. > > > > > > Of course, the description associated with the updated > > > ietf-inet-types.yang revision should clearly highly the > > > non-backwards-compatible change to the types. > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: iesg On Behalf Of J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6= nw=C3=A4lder > > > Sent: 07 April 2022 08:35 > > > To: Acee Lindem (acee) > > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; The IESG ; netmod@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > > > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt > > > > > > Here is roughly what happened: > > > > > > - RFC 6020 (published ~12 years ago) introduced the ip-address > > > type. It included an optional zone index part since zone indexes > > > are necessary in certain situations (e.g., configuring services > > > listening on link-local addresses or clients connecting to services > > > listening on link-local addresses). > > > > > > - RFC 6991 (published ~9 years ago) added the ip-address-no-zone type= s > > > since people felt that it is useful to also an ip address type > > > without the optional zone part for situations where a zone is not > > > applicable. The name 'ip-address-no-zone' was picked since the name > > > ip-address was already taken. > > > > > > I understand that the names resulting from this evolution of the YANG > > > module confuse people not looking up the type definitions. Let me not= e > > > that using a type allowing for an optional zone for a leaf that never > > > needs a zone is not a fatal error (its like using an int where a shor= t > > > is sufficient) while using a type not allowing for a zone for a leaf > > > that may need zones is a fatal error (using a short where an int is > > > required) requiring an update of the definition of the leaf to fix. > > > > > > What are our options? > > > > > > a) Do nothing and accept that types are called as they are. > > > b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks > > > modules where zone indexes are meaningful. > > > c) Deprecate the types and create a new module defining new types > > > so that modules can opt-in to use better names. > > > d) Deprecate the -no-zone types and move back to have a single > > > type for IP addresses. > > > > > > Any other options? > > > > > > How are we going to pick between them? > > > > > > /js > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 09:02:23PM +0000, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > > > > J=C3=BCrgen and netmod WG, +IESG, > > > > > > > > It is not just the IETF models that are using the inet:ip-address f= or > > > the standard IPv4/IPv6 addresses without zones. Every vendor=E2=80=99= s native > > > models and the OpenConfig models use the base types and expect the > standard > > > IP address notation. If we don=E2=80=99t fix this, it is something th= at people > can > > > point to as another example of the IETF being out of touch with > reality. > > > > > > > > I thought about more, and it might make the backward compatibility > > > easier if we just leave the existing ip-address-no-zone, > > > ipv4-address-no-zone, and ipv6-address-no-zone types and add *-zone > types > > > for the remote possibility that someone actually wants to include the > > > zone. In the existing RFC 6991 BIS document, we could merely remove > the > > > zone from the ip-address, ipv4-address, and ipv6-address types and > classify > > > this as we would any other bug fix. While including the zone was the > > > original intent of the base types, this is what those of us who work = on > > > software products would classify as a requirements bug. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Acee > > > > > > > > From: Andy Bierman > > > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 3:21 PM > > > > To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , > Andy > > > Bierman , Acee Lindem , " > lsr@ietf.org" > > > , "netmod@ietf.org" > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > > > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 12:02 PM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder < > > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote: > > > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 10:03:25AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The best outcome would be to fix ip-address to not include the > zone, > > > > > > introduce ip-address-zone, and deprecate ip-address-no-zone. My > take > > > all > > > > > > the is that all the existing usages do not require zone and thi= s > > > would be a > > > > > > fix as opposed to a change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think this will harm our implementations. > > > > > The type is still string. The pattern will change but that is > handled > > > by a > > > > > library. > > > > > Whatever pattern is used will get handled the same way. > > > > > > > > Either a zone is allowed to be present or it is not, this does make= a > > > > difference, its not a cosmetic change. > > > > > > > > > > > > True. The code will probably accept the pattern then fail trying to > use > > > the string. > > > > If the client sends the form with a zone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same problem exists for 'date' and 'date-no-zone' types, > > > > > but they are not used very much. > > > > > > > > Perhaps we should call types a, b, c, and so on - this may force > > > > people to read the descriptions. ;-) > > > > > > > > For some reason, the smarter the person, the less likely they are t= o > > > > read any of the documentation before using some software. > > > > I call it the "it should work the way I would design it" phenomenon > :-) > > > > > > > > You have to admit that Acee's suggestion is more intuitive than the > > > current > > > > definitions. > > > > > > > > Clearly an NBC change. > > > > IMO it is more useful to put some YANG extension magic in these > specific > > > typedefs > > > > than just bumping a major revision number. This is a great use-case > for > > > the version DT. > > > > > > > > There probably is no solution path where nobody has to change any > YANG > > > or any code > > > > and everything still works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /js > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > -- > > > > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Br= emen gGmbH > > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | > Germany > > > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > > > > -- > > > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Brem= en gGmbH > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German= y > > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Lsr mailing list > > > Lsr@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > netmod mailing list > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > --00000000000089f9ac05dc13a9b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 10:01 AM Marti= n Bj=C3=B6rklund <mbj+ietf@4668.se> wrote:
Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 9:11 AM tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Rob Wilton (rwilton)
> > <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> > Sent: 07 April 2022 10:25
> >
> > I basically agree with Acee, and I think that we should do (b): > >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0b) Change the types as suggested= and accept that doing so breaks
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0modules where zone indexes are m= eaningful.
> >
> > <tp>
> >
> > I am concerned that such behaviour will damage the standing of th= e IETF at
> > large.
> >
> >
> MAY for the client means MUST for the server.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

But I'm also not sure I understand what the real problem is.=C2=A0 Just= b/c
the type allows a zone doesn't mean that all leafs that use this type MUST support a zone.=C2=A0 Compare with the value "0.0.0.0".=C2= =A0 It is a legal
value according to the pattern, but it will not be valid in all places
where this type is used.=C2=A0 And even when an implementation supports
zones, it will not accept all legal (according to the pattern) values
for the zone index.=C2=A0 Perhaps the solution is to explain this
better in the description?


> But if no servers actually support it, because the YANG does not match=
> the operational requirements, then is it really a MUST requirement? >
> This seems like a bugfix, and the worst thing the IETF could do wrt/ > standing
> is to force the world to change every module that imports the typedef.=
> Since many people were not aware of the full syntax, it is not clear t= hat
> the WG intent was to include a zone.

It is pretty clear IMO that this was not a mistake.=C2=A0 The text
explicitly says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The IPv4 address may include a zone
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 index, separated by a % sign.

>
> Seems like a bugfix to a pattern, like we have done several times alre= ady.

I don't think this is a bugfix.


So no change is needed?
Is i= t an 'invalid-value' if the pattern accepts the string?
T= he server can return 'operation-failed' or 'operation-not-suppo= rted' at any time already.
The server is not supposed to igno= re the extra characters though.



/martin


Andy

=C2=A0

>
> Andy
>
>
>
> > We clearly laid down rules as to what updates were regarded as co= mpatible
> > so that authors of software could be confident that their work wa= s robust
> > and future-proof.=C2=A0 We did it with SNMP, inter alia, and we h= ave carried
> > that forward with YANG.=C2=A0 To tear up that understanding , cre= ating who knows
> > how much disruption, can only harm the standing of IETF.
> >
> > Much has been said about how implementations have assumed that th= e address
> > types do not include a zone but no evidence has been put forward = for that
> > assertion.
> >
> > I have always assumed that software uses libraries and that the l= ibraries
> > have been written with an understanding of the specifications suc= h that if
> > a zone is received over the wire in conformance with the specific= ation but
> > where the display, field or such like does not allow for a zone, = then,
> > tolerant of what to accept, the zone is silently discarded and th= e address
> > is used without the zone.=C2=A0 But, like the assertion that keep= ing the zone
> > will cause who knows what damage, I have not done the research to=
> > substantiate that assumption.
> >
> > Tom Petch
> >
> > I appreciate that this is an NBC change, but I believe that this = is the
> > most intuitive definition and is the best choice longer term.=C2= =A0 I also note
> > that the base ipv4-address/ipv6-address types in OpenConfig (wher= e they use
> > the OC copy/version of inet-types and not ietf-inet-types) don= 9;t allow a
> > zone to be specified and assumes the default zone.=C2=A0 They hav= e separate
> > types in cases where a zone is allowed to be specified, i.e., ali= gned to
> > what (b) proposes.
> >
> > For modules that are using/wanting zones (if any), then they can = migrate
> > to the new explicit zone type.=C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-netmod-yang= -module-versioning,
> > if it keeps its import "revision-or-derived" extension,= would also allow
> > such modules to indicate the dependency on the updated revision/d= efinition
> > of ietf-inet-types.yang.
> >
> > Of course, the description associated with the updated
> > ietf-inet-types.yang revision should clearly highly the
> > non-backwards-compatible change to the types.
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw= =C3=A4lder
> > Sent: 07 April 2022 08:35
> > To: Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>
> > Cc: lsr@ietf.or= g; The IESG <iesg= @ietf.org>; net= mod@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action:
> > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt
> >
> > Here is roughly what happened:
> >
> > - RFC 6020 (published ~12 years ago) introduced the ip-address > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0type. It included an optional zone index part since z= one indexes
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0are necessary in certain situations (e.g., configurin= g services
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0listening on link-local addresses or clients connecti= ng to services
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0listening on link-local addresses).
> >
> > - RFC 6991 (published ~9 years ago) added the ip-address-no-zone = types
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0since people felt that it is useful to also an ip add= ress type
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0without the optional zone part for situations where a= zone is not
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0applicable. The name 'ip-address-no-zone' was= picked since the name
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0ip-address was already taken.
> >
> > I understand that the names resulting from this evolution of the = YANG
> > module confuse people not looking up the type definitions. Let me= note
> > that using a type allowing for an optional zone for a leaf that n= ever
> > needs a zone is not a fatal error (its like using an int where a = short
> > is sufficient) while using a type not allowing for a zone for a l= eaf
> > that may need zones is a fatal error (using a short where an int = is
> > required) requiring an update of the definition of the leaf to fi= x.
> >
> > What are our options?
> >
> > a) Do nothing and accept that types are called as they are.
> > b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks<= br> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 modules where zone indexes are meaningful.
> > c) Deprecate the types and create a new module defining new types=
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 so that modules can opt-in to use better names.
> > d) Deprecate the -no-zone types and move back to have a single > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 type for IP addresses.
> >
> > Any other options?
> >
> > How are we going to pick between them?
> >
> > /js
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 09:02:23PM +0000, Acee Lindem (acee) wrot= e:
> > > J=C3=BCrgen and netmod WG,=C2=A0 +IESG,
> > >
> > > It is not just the IETF models that are using the inet:ip-ad= dress for
> > the standard IPv4/IPv6 addresses without zones. Every vendor=E2= =80=99s native
> > models and the OpenConfig models use the base types and expect th= e standard
> > IP address notation. If we don=E2=80=99t fix this, it is somethin= g that people can
> > point to as another example of the IETF being out of touch with r= eality.
> > >
> > > I thought about more, and it might make the backward compati= bility
> > easier if we just leave the existing ip-address-no-zone,
> > ipv4-address-no-zone, and ipv6-address-no-zone types and add *-zo= ne types
> > for the remote possibility that someone actually wants to include= the
> > zone.=C2=A0 In the existing RFC 6991 BIS document, we could merel= y remove the
> > zone from the ip-address, ipv4-address, and ipv6-address types an= d classify
> > this as we would any other bug fix. While including the zone was = the
> > original intent of the base types, this is what those of us who w= ork on
> > software products would classify as a requirements bug.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Acee
> > >
> > > From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 3:21 PM
> > > To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-universi= ty.de>, Andy
> > Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, Acee Lindem <acee@cisco.com>, "lsr@ietf.org"
> > <lsr@ietf.or= g>, "netmo= d@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action:
> > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 12:02 PM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3= =A4lder <
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de<mailto:
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote:
> > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 10:03:25AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote= :
> > > > >
> > > > > The best outcome would be to fix ip-address to not= include the zone,
> > > > > introduce ip-address-zone, and deprecate ip-addres= s-no-zone. My take
> > all
> > > > > the is that all the existing usages do not require= zone and this
> > would be a
> > > > > fix as opposed to a change.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > I don't think this will harm our implementations. > > > > The type is still string. The pattern will change but t= hat is handled
> > by a
> > > > library.
> > > > Whatever pattern is used will get handled the same way.=
> > >
> > > Either a zone is allowed to be present or it is not, this do= es make a
> > > difference, its not a cosmetic change.
> > >
> > >
> > > True. The code will probably accept the pattern then fail tr= ying to use
> > the string.
> > > If the client sends the form with a zone.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > The same problem exists for 'date' and 'dat= e-no-zone' types,
> > > > but they are not used very much.
> > >
> > > Perhaps we should call types a, b, c, and so on - this may f= orce
> > > people to read the descriptions. ;-)
> > >
> > > For some reason, the smarter the person, the less likely the= y are to
> > > read any of the documentation before using some software. > > > I call it the "it should work the way I would design it= " phenomenon :-)
> > >
> > > You have to admit that Acee's suggestion is more intuiti= ve than the
> > current
> > > definitions.
> > >
> > > Clearly an NBC change.
> > > IMO it is more useful to put some YANG extension magic in th= ese specific
> > typedefs
> > > than just bumping a major revision number. This is a great u= se-case for
> > the version DT.
> > >
> > > There probably is no solution path where nobody has to chang= e any YANG
> > or any code
> > > and everything still works.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > /js
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > --
> > > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cam= pus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > > Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> >
> > --
> > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus R= ing 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lsr mailing list
> > Lsr@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > netmod mailing list
> > netmod@ietf.= org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> >
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10:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2211f70f-07cd-1280-bd58-5f7be1e9b563@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:51:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" References: <20220407.190102.216707636489534894.id@4668.se> <12326A10-EB1D-4477-B1D2-BF98A4DD31DE@cisco.com> <4929b967-1832-d5ef-7dba-982375089d4e@joelhalpern.com> <05995F9B-442F-48E5-A544-847AE02FF69D@cisco.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <05995F9B-442F-48E5-A544-847AE02FF69D@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 17:52:31 -0000 Given that you are asking for an incompatible change to an existing module, the shoe would seem to be on the other foot. If you could show it was necessary to make such an incompatible change, then there would be a difficult argument to be had. But you simply have not shown it. (And showing that no one uses the zone field would seem the reasonable and impossible bar for doing such.) Yours, Joel On 4/7/2022 1:22 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Hi Joel, > > On 4/7/22, 1:18 PM, "Joel M. Halpern" wrote: > > Acee, I am missing something basic. > It seems to me that it would be very wrong for the LSR YANG module to > demand a change to an important type because it turns out that type > doesn't mean what LSR thought it meant. Such an error is LSR's problem, > not the underlying modules. > > There seem to be two fixes. If it is for some reason imperitive to us > the same typedef we have been using, then put in text / patterns / > restrictions saying that this model MUST NOT use the scope field. > > More reasonably, use a different typedef in this model. > > Point me to a usages where the zone is actually desired and supported? > > Acee > > > > > Yours, > Joel > > On 4/7/2022 1:04 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > > > On 4/7/22, 1:02 PM, "netmod on behalf of Martin Björklund" wrote: > > > > Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 9:11 AM tom petch wrote: > > > > > > > From: Lsr on behalf of Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > > > > > > > Sent: 07 April 2022 10:25 > > > > > > > > I basically agree with Acee, and I think that we should do (b): > > > > > > > > b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks > > > > modules where zone indexes are meaningful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am concerned that such behaviour will damage the standing of the IETF at > > > > large. > > > > > > > > > > > MAY for the client means MUST for the server. > > > > I'm not sure what you mean here. > > > > But I'm also not sure I understand what the real problem is. Just b/c > > the type allows a zone doesn't mean that all leafs that use this type > > MUST support a zone. Compare with the value "0.0.0.0". It is a legal > > value according to the pattern, but it will not be valid in all places > > where this type is used. And even when an implementation supports > > zones, it will not accept all legal (according to the pattern) values > > for the zone index. Perhaps the solution is to explain this > > better in the description? > > > > > > > But if no servers actually support it, because the YANG does not match > > > the operational requirements, then is it really a MUST requirement? > > > > > > This seems like a bugfix, and the worst thing the IETF could do wrt/ > > > standing > > > is to force the world to change every module that imports the typedef. > > > Since many people were not aware of the full syntax, it is not clear that > > > the WG intent was to include a zone. > > > > It is pretty clear IMO that this was not a mistake. The text > > explicitly says: > > > > The IPv4 address may include a zone > > index, separated by a % sign. > > > > > > > > Seems like a bugfix to a pattern, like we have done several times already. > > > > I don't think this is a bugfix. > > > > A bugfix for the requirements for the base types that requires fixing the pattern and description. > > > > Acee > > > > > > /martin > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > We clearly laid down rules as to what updates were regarded as compatible > > > > so that authors of software could be confident that their work was robust > > > > and future-proof. We did it with SNMP, inter alia, and we have carried > > > > that forward with YANG. To tear up that understanding , creating who knows > > > > how much disruption, can only harm the standing of IETF. > > > > > > > > Much has been said about how implementations have assumed that the address > > > > types do not include a zone but no evidence has been put forward for that > > > > assertion. > > > > > > > > I have always assumed that software uses libraries and that the libraries > > > > have been written with an understanding of the specifications such that if > > > > a zone is received over the wire in conformance with the specification but > > > > where the display, field or such like does not allow for a zone, then, > > > > tolerant of what to accept, the zone is silently discarded and the address > > > > is used without the zone. But, like the assertion that keeping the zone > > > > will cause who knows what damage, I have not done the research to > > > > substantiate that assumption. > > > > > > > > Tom Petch > > > > > > > > I appreciate that this is an NBC change, but I believe that this is the > > > > most intuitive definition and is the best choice longer term. I also note > > > > that the base ipv4-address/ipv6-address types in OpenConfig (where they use > > > > the OC copy/version of inet-types and not ietf-inet-types) don't allow a > > > > zone to be specified and assumes the default zone. They have separate > > > > types in cases where a zone is allowed to be specified, i.e., aligned to > > > > what (b) proposes. > > > > > > > > For modules that are using/wanting zones (if any), then they can migrate > > > > to the new explicit zone type. draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning, > > > > if it keeps its import "revision-or-derived" extension, would also allow > > > > such modules to indicate the dependency on the updated revision/definition > > > > of ietf-inet-types.yang. > > > > > > > > Of course, the description associated with the updated > > > > ietf-inet-types.yang revision should clearly highly the > > > > non-backwards-compatible change to the types. > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: iesg On Behalf Of Jürgen Schönwälder > > > > Sent: 07 April 2022 08:35 > > > > To: Acee Lindem (acee) > > > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; The IESG ; netmod@ietf.org > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > > > > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt > > > > > > > > Here is roughly what happened: > > > > > > > > - RFC 6020 (published ~12 years ago) introduced the ip-address > > > > type. It included an optional zone index part since zone indexes > > > > are necessary in certain situations (e.g., configuring services > > > > listening on link-local addresses or clients connecting to services > > > > listening on link-local addresses). > > > > > > > > - RFC 6991 (published ~9 years ago) added the ip-address-no-zone types > > > > since people felt that it is useful to also an ip address type > > > > without the optional zone part for situations where a zone is not > > > > applicable. The name 'ip-address-no-zone' was picked since the name > > > > ip-address was already taken. > > > > > > > > I understand that the names resulting from this evolution of the YANG > > > > module confuse people not looking up the type definitions. Let me note > > > > that using a type allowing for an optional zone for a leaf that never > > > > needs a zone is not a fatal error (its like using an int where a short > > > > is sufficient) while using a type not allowing for a zone for a leaf > > > > that may need zones is a fatal error (using a short where an int is > > > > required) requiring an update of the definition of the leaf to fix. > > > > > > > > What are our options? > > > > > > > > a) Do nothing and accept that types are called as they are. > > > > b) Change the types as suggested and accept that doing so breaks > > > > modules where zone indexes are meaningful. > > > > c) Deprecate the types and create a new module defining new types > > > > so that modules can opt-in to use better names. > > > > d) Deprecate the -no-zone types and move back to have a single > > > > type for IP addresses. > > > > > > > > Any other options? > > > > > > > > How are we going to pick between them? > > > > > > > > /js > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 09:02:23PM +0000, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > > > > > Jürgen and netmod WG, +IESG, > > > > > > > > > > It is not just the IETF models that are using the inet:ip-address for > > > > the standard IPv4/IPv6 addresses without zones. Every vendor’s native > > > > models and the OpenConfig models use the base types and expect the standard > > > > IP address notation. If we don’t fix this, it is something that people can > > > > point to as another example of the IETF being out of touch with reality. > > > > > > > > > > I thought about more, and it might make the backward compatibility > > > > easier if we just leave the existing ip-address-no-zone, > > > > ipv4-address-no-zone, and ipv6-address-no-zone types and add *-zone types > > > > for the remote possibility that someone actually wants to include the > > > > zone. In the existing RFC 6991 BIS document, we could merely remove the > > > > zone from the ip-address, ipv4-address, and ipv6-address types and classify > > > > this as we would any other bug fix. While including the zone was the > > > > original intent of the base types, this is what those of us who work on > > > > software products would classify as a requirements bug. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Acee > > > > > > > > > > From: Andy Bierman > > > > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 3:21 PM > > > > > To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Andy > > > > Bierman , Acee Lindem , "lsr@ietf.org" > > > > , "netmod@ietf.org" > > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > > > > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 12:02 PM Jürgen Schönwälder < > > > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de > > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 10:03:25AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best outcome would be to fix ip-address to not include the zone, > > > > > > > introduce ip-address-zone, and deprecate ip-address-no-zone. My take > > > > all > > > > > > > the is that all the existing usages do not require zone and this > > > > would be a > > > > > > > fix as opposed to a change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think this will harm our implementations. > > > > > > The type is still string. The pattern will change but that is handled > > > > by a > > > > > > library. > > > > > > Whatever pattern is used will get handled the same way. > > > > > > > > > > Either a zone is allowed to be present or it is not, this does make a > > > > > difference, its not a cosmetic change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True. The code will probably accept the pattern then fail trying to use > > > > the string. > > > > > If the client sends the form with a zone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same problem exists for 'date' and 'date-no-zone' types, > > > > > > but they are not used very much. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps we should call types a, b, c, and so on - this may force > > > > > people to read the descriptions. ;-) > > > > > > > > > > For some reason, the smarter the person, the less likely they are to > > > > > read any of the documentation before using some software. > > > > > I call it the "it should work the way I would design it" phenomenon :-) > > > > > > > > > > You have to admit that Acee's suggestion is more intuitive than the > > > > current > > > > > definitions. > > > > > > > > > > Clearly an NBC change. > > > > > IMO it is more useful to put some YANG extension magic in these specific > > > > typedefs > > > > > than just bumping a major revision number. This is a great use-case for > > > > the version DT. > > > > > > > > > > There probably is no solution path where nobody has to change any YANG > > > > or any code > > > > > and everything still works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /js > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > > > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Lsr mailing list > > > > Lsr@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > netmod mailing list > > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lsr mailing list > > Lsr@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > From nobody Thu Apr 7 11:19:11 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B4763A1239 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:19:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oIbKOqvaroOh for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-f181.google.com (mail-pl1-f181.google.com [209.85.214.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECEBB3A122E for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-f181.google.com with SMTP id n9so5753146plc.4 for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 11:19:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=O4sx5tXt3kTUcriHQG4j16js3TYW5fogmha30x4jmOM=; b=icAuoj1gC1x83yao4Z+Mv89J5iTAdzd8iHxApzHtQmqhI3jamJP6AAkXceUdH5WEpB Bt5iAGsyLexORr05GcXLUQZWh938e+HqzDmlERWiNFoksXhieljHXUkO6rii844n6EyL VEHmqberprduMMhFUNbJxCDSH0T36UsPejKpoUGkmGrfwFr0khDtmas2HpHtDwrl0CZG 0HqHXJUpNl9+nd78fztDPbpoBJrSZfk+r59EQE2FR6NRZwQDCjMPN4hlLcnEAriHY0VC r3KOKJLgFH83ZzU1XE95V2OFGd33LT+zU1y33e11yKnv/JyuXmL67QZwoaJ0CkRdvPp5 WMMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531PQaWwEgovG+Lx2+W3Vvubp7MZdBWIWvJbv/mjjOYGLpGS4pK9 CQLDmTd+McKmTa7ib8uibM9lWUYLl8aIvg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwm+zgR88eIbkLEkrhUKxXrTCam1bD6CSUdT5DO+NQ0ztjszfcBDoLAV/i6PbEm4KUAfn+M7Q== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:1941:b0:1ca:a28b:6744 with SMTP id 1-20020a17090a194100b001caa28b6744mr17639135pjh.50.1649355545220; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 11:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPV6:2601:646:9300:607:c470:6c4a:937c:ad4f? ([2601:646:9300:607:c470:6c4a:937c:ad4f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v189-20020a622fc6000000b004fb72e95806sm22304327pfv.48.2022.04.07.11.19.04 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Apr 2022 11:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:19:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: netmod@ietf.org References: <164929256637.5647.16487851538854891735@ietfa.amsl.com> <20220407071335.ckf7y3xxzixhy7j4@anna> From: Randy Presuhn In-Reply-To: <20220407071335.ckf7y3xxzixhy7j4@anna> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 18:19:09 -0000 Hi - On 2022-04-07 12:13 AM, Jürgen Schönwälder wrote: ... > given recent discussions around ip addresses, I am not sure about the > consensus and perhaps we should consider to name the new date and time > types differently, e.g. > > date -> date-with-zone > date-no-zone -> date > time -> time-with-zone > time-no-zone -> time > > to avoid similar discussions in the future and to adopt a naming style > where optional elements are reflected in the name instead of using a > naming style where the absence of optional parts is reflected in the > name. That's a reasonable rationale, and might even make a good CLR if adopted from the very beginning, but given the ability of model designers to read too much (or too little) into names, perhaps one might consider the possibility of eliminating this particular source of confusion altogether? date -> date-with-zone date-no-zone -> date-no-zone time -> time-with-zone time-no-zone -> time-no-zone Randy From nobody Thu Apr 7 11:32:12 2022 Return-Path: <01000180054c20e3-ee7d0bbe-e64d-4647-832f-29835cb08e32-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1C9A3A14E4 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:32:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id URtmMXDJ-T_2 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B45B3A159F for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:31:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1649356317; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To:Feedback-ID; bh=TW7TdKbTZgz7bZSWCE7EaDwcol5GFJW7261VcV2DrgU=; b=Wke5bhruMu4VBsLjvkSy/mSd7YIYbXPYqkNDTyNoZSKOYbJFNEysJQdvdULgc1kg wJX8oUStoLmujrMEGfBciRpLBz+mDZKXZZhwHRpQTlxp9KlV+EcCj5jJ07bw3/pfbnF qI1yGPQUDz5xELK5LUNIyGN8qXyAiiOPjfCkKuX4= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Kent Watsen In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 18:31:56 +0000 Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <01000180054c20e3-ee7d0bbe-e64d-4647-832f-29835cb08e32-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <164929256637.5647.16487851538854891735@ietfa.amsl.com> <20220407071335.ckf7y3xxzixhy7j4@anna> To: Randy Presuhn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.04.07-54.240.48.92 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 18:32:11 -0000 Hi Randy, > That's a reasonable rationale, and might even make a good CLR if > adopted from the very beginning, but given the ability of model > designers to read too much (or too little) into names, > perhaps one might consider the possibility of eliminating this > particular source of confusion altogether? >=20 > date -> date-with-zone > date-no-zone -> date-no-zone > time -> time-with-zone > time-no-zone -> time-no-zone This looks like my option 'e' in the other thread. It's good because it = makes it a conscious decision either way. > Randy K. From nobody Thu Apr 7 11:39:06 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 133843A0CB3 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:38:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.912 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.912 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dk237V0B_IeS for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-f176.google.com (mail-pl1-f176.google.com [209.85.214.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E96103A1270 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-f176.google.com with SMTP id d15so5780381pll.10 for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 11:38:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SUoHT3amVOaSKdA420BAkBiAkcce7UZ4tcelZ/4mU9A=; b=FkxTyDCjdGB88lkz7W6ugz5F17s4l8Auxcn2S2eGL6Rrc3Uji/BOm3ibiotBOzrBaR MxxzYzxdbji6Ag5SJIf6KF6oagwblafFqkd4MHYsNqRkdjkrZNpsGcoYl6nRv8UBWucM +CLzJt2kAkIiI6vS0bZnAozM6HUz/0Dc98v5IbJMYk4OUvJayaQLq1PNMsvX0TIPyBX6 RW8ZVZKLAxn6XzXcpPp4uws8cZvqjAs02mKDSGqUf3BUT0mvevXHLtPENPEnjmoVk0s7 1EWmKtttz9aTXtNMSSIy87CEmwCy7jMNm+yibNDywkesT1jmMvAAz06P/czQdU3xRrHO sufQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Prng4qkPzst+YloSbzhQK8s+7M2fXro2xurWor+Z33AjIjN1F PMMW+ABK+e7v/5FSDLLJGR9vbiUxCI5S2A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz2bevx5ii2Zk3cQwsNf/VmdoR6/f+sD/tmxYGkmIKmSA4ujMZu8cQbG+G4FAQ5z4oiqK6KZg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1b52:b0:1c6:b689:813d with SMTP id nv18-20020a17090b1b5200b001c6b689813dmr17099061pjb.186.1649356728381; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 11:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPV6:2601:646:9300:607:c470:6c4a:937c:ad4f? ([2601:646:9300:607:c470:6c4a:937c:ad4f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h14-20020a63384e000000b00366ba5335e7sm19576110pgn.72.2022.04.07.11.38.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Apr 2022 11:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:38:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: netmod@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> From: Randy Presuhn In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 18:38:52 -0000 Hi - Let me get this straight. WG A standardized types X and Y years ago, and support for these has presumably been implemented in some number of tools, which in turn have been used to develop some unknowable number of products, whose deployment is even more unknowable. WG B comes along, and wants to use X, but dislikes the name, preferring to call it Y instead. WG B then demands that A rename X to Y, with no regard to the process for managing changes to types nor to the collateral damage resulting from the changed definition of Y. That we should even be bothering with this discussion is the kind of thing that gives standards organizations a bad name. Randy From nobody Thu Apr 7 11:49:11 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE5C3A0D79 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:49:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l8sbG0b1HCik for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-f52.google.com (mail-pj1-f52.google.com [209.85.216.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18F5E3A0D30 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-f52.google.com with SMTP id g15-20020a17090adb0f00b001caa9a230c7so9689155pjv.5 for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 11:49:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SIX2Tnda6Zb7O90xF4wzzwOTWj17EsCSo5hyxcxDH3M=; b=CMcWPj/tGbINL364KVe0H5lpOCgwxPfT/rrKKrT7DSO8clEEKMuoqzCFRDmn56Xxos xFng2vRYyQ2ih/ggyZ0n+TjKJWhj2oT4RviSUYJa6xOqilqc/mVyooZlIiSFKISwvgI+ Ojxko+lVGFWTWlUjEwS9rd5+Bxq2KcMnpKWffo9xqFkL2pEaB2VuoSGVYIfFPd8MI9eU xr/dIwIDuvPI+2rOYd8SlmOK8lV8NQExyqz1+FXaKYFBAqhjZ6CU+TAkuPa6s3F2OIzo XgIJ9a7Jo15TfhFQaPbBT1UfkQDIYgFz5bUrKtf7mc7NwI+pJvEg46yGx7f3bjG7xq7+ SySg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532BpuGqH97e9Lo2ifOM9+QRzg+qohKH16jCvWhc2ifoR/eIzY3b WrRx4Fmzn9FNV2hpe27geKM9SGwVYFxVHw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy6wTP9VKHViZI3Bd8qvrdd2uYF/T/2B/93dEas70icfGVorKIH7BmAZWAB5IocI+lYOUJ03g== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:5983:b0:1c9:ee11:76df with SMTP id l3-20020a17090a598300b001c9ee1176dfmr17557699pji.95.1649357344613; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 11:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPV6:2601:646:9300:607:c470:6c4a:937c:ad4f? ([2601:646:9300:607:c470:6c4a:937c:ad4f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h6-20020a056a00218600b004f65315bb37sm25181526pfi.13.2022.04.07.11.48.12 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Apr 2022 11:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:48:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "netmod@ietf.org" References: <164929256637.5647.16487851538854891735@ietfa.amsl.com> <20220407071335.ckf7y3xxzixhy7j4@anna> <01000180054c20e3-ee7d0bbe-e64d-4647-832f-29835cb08e32-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Randy Presuhn In-Reply-To: <01000180054c20e3-ee7d0bbe-e64d-4647-832f-29835cb08e32-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 18:49:09 -0000 Hi - On 2022-04-07 11:31 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: > Hi Randy, > >> That's a reasonable rationale, and might even make a good CLR if >> adopted from the very beginning, but given the ability of model >> designers to read too much (or too little) into names, >> perhaps one might consider the possibility of eliminating this >> particular source of confusion altogether? >> >> date -> date-with-zone >> date-no-zone -> date-no-zone >> time -> time-with-zone >> time-no-zone -> time-no-zone > > > This looks like my option 'e' in the other thread. It's good because it makes it a conscious decision either way. Sorry to have duplicated your idea without credit. One concern, both here and with respect to the LSR discussion - Though there is clearly *mnemonic* value to descriptive labels, I hate to see an institutionalization of the questionable practice of inferring *semantics* from the construction of labels. Hungarian notation has its limits. Randy From nobody Fri Apr 8 03:45:33 2022 Return-Path: <0100018008c75afe-9f96e1d7-bf05-417d-8a8e-25d31ae49514-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620C93A067B for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 03:45:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZU5pMZvij0v5 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 03:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D8093A064F for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 03:45:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1649414724; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:From:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:Message-Id:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:Feedback-ID; bh=6FiHHgZ/CFhxJLtTJ3fbu7HKGeju0Vsy2SF5yIs8KSQ=; b=bvBz6jJqy2uBZ8TQBhdJ+7KFA5BsqPSIIieoM0aOMwyFUYAPUCEr28XOicpisMmT sU0Z9XkDXbEiWcJnWdWKpxU6KcisaxSP6kyriqEIcMkMSgplJK5tRev54y/i6c5yxuY eMzC9m/oKZsr6texMG7IGnwisVdPImgeRfjlv7AY= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Kent Watsen Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 10:45:24 +0000 Message-ID: <0100018008c75afe-9f96e1d7-bf05-417d-8a8e-25d31ae49514-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: Cc: netmod@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Randy Presuhn X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18H107) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.04.08-54.240.48.92 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 10:45:30 -0000 Randy! >>> date -> date-with-zone >>> date-no-zone -> date-no-zone >>> time -> time-with-zone >>> time-no-zone -> time-no-zone >> This looks like my option 'e' in the other thread. It's good because it m= akes it a conscious decision either way. >=20 > Sorry to have duplicated your idea without credit. Think nothing of it. My only interest is ensuring others make the connectio= n as well. Just trying to me helpful.=20 K.=20 From nobody Fri Apr 8 03:54:48 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A0593A0C0B for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 03:54:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YZYxxOJEnajB for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 03:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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<2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> User-agent: mu4e 1.7.12; emacs 28.0.92 From: Christian Hopps To: Randy Presuhn Cc: netmod@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 08:11:29 -0400 In-reply-to: <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 12:19:32 -0000 Randy Presuhn writes: > Hi - > > Let me get this straight. WG A standardized types X and Y years ago, > and support for these has presumably been implemented in some number > of tools, which in turn have been used to develop some unknowable > number of products, whose deployment is even more unknowable. > > WG B comes along, and wants to use X, but dislikes the name, preferring > to call it Y instead. WG B then demands that A rename X to Y, with > no regard to the process for managing changes to types nor to the > collateral damage resulting from the changed definition of Y. Hi Randy, It's not really like this. Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's point). So, Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the AD in charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. Thanks, Chris. > > That we should even be bothering with this discussion is the kind of > thing that gives standards organizations a bad name. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr From nobody Fri Apr 8 08:01:09 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7863C3A080A; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 08:00:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jacobsuniversity.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wNTvKHkzcg-P; 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Now in shepherd write-up. > > Comments: > > Section 4 is titled "Internet-Specific Derived Types" > Should it be something like "Internet Protocol Suite Types"? I do not care much, I now have: 3. Core YANG Types . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4. Internet Protocol Suite Types . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 > Many places have "Simplified BSD" > should be "Revised BSD" I had already fixed these in the YANG modules, the other two occurances in the I-D boilerplate are generated by tooling and I will leave them as is (and this text will be rewritten by the RFC editor anyway). > The "description" for "email-address" says: > "The canonical format of the domain part of an email-address uses lowercase US-ASCII characters.". > But I don't see a lowercase-restriction in the pattern. > Maybe the description could be clarified? Canonical format in YANG means you accepted mixed case as valid input but you report in lowercase as output. The pattern describe the valid input, not the canonical format subset. > Note: `pyang --strict -Werror --canonical ietf-inet-types@2022-03-22.yang` > ietf-inet-types@2022-03-22.yang:551: error: keyword "length" not in canonical order (see RFC 6020, Section 12) Fixed. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Apr 8 09:32:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6A9C3A170F; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 09:32:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S8R0LrwYT6qc; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 09:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am5eur02on072e.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe07::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AB213A1705; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 09:32:21 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=O1CEmsD2jeDS1nZPf4+eMtsAkShceeZDzWBKck7m7plCuPuFPCYf++eo8nG5V/C57Jihk/dcH++SnVs4TWM75c0YodHpiobNtb1v2D5VQooTin+KhJPF3L8HmrS6dkLeEr71nfJ9SIt3d3KvnS6t06Ll9ugPp03GW5FsHxmG87+7PMJSa+0BxeUelagD7UyAB4lWTob6k7KD0z0PILFMjQk4aymCSEgIjM+v6SWYsjYfP/4TR2PjtiGz1MuYuAROeBOj1qL6BWpBUYjXsrBPgr2yluq9XHIncGqOdPiOQzu1c6un7lNumaEgmptLoDGRHldnz81pDgegJnEDm2rLJA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=ndUYB1EE3pqfh2p55WTs/lsmAuNmXH77igDwUDWsN2c=; b=WoU4txe2Oyy9XIv82q07aGqz8xsQc5dXIKpSexe/ShUUR8KusIpnGa9mACaxwKO88RiuLAr/AtJV19bgi4vBonu/eNzC88FOX36iTGmr9uCMNPthcLV5/cIv3M4CSa0Ti7j5qHAUFYTzNflHQswpdeXwwXHFYE3JkSnluCo2F7w5g8vovctrCLD9oX3TkaqwQ20Or1Pb2p7LBKnMsTIkkXTdPDVrrm2yKi/e4d/UtA9rbLxXUPKUFXNMCFxhN8CVo8nM/dO87rTk+AzIOqP4/DjsSDgxj6kSyOLxYXEEF7d2YjyyQrI71sA4iONCEaY2W4ZMkJTktLaJHoag48H5ng== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=btconnect.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=btconnect.com; dkim=pass header.d=btconnect.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-btconnect-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ndUYB1EE3pqfh2p55WTs/lsmAuNmXH77igDwUDWsN2c=; b=KXpdPzntUdjYqOBkdd3ddJzeDHTLkn8P/6bMBu17FISjGkaFTu/TggVvi84wXnb+L7VgT+TEV8PUqPUU1mMl0HApJPrn4ircooeze0lmHG2JtzPsn6/35QrXXU7imw7TaNFJl/GQIpQs1qS4T12pY8dzyIlXHV9ilP1sqrtzsfs= Received: from AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:134::11) by AM4PR07MB3171.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:205:8::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5164.8; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 16:32:13 +0000 Received: from AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b1c5:beb7:ddbf:b358]) by AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b1c5:beb7:ddbf:b358%9]) with mapi id 15.20.5164.008; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 16:32:13 +0000 From: tom petch To: "Joel M. 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([2601:646:9300:607:fd1c:1203:39e2:75e2]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j9-20020a056a00130900b004f73df40914sm26447035pfu.82.2022.04.08.10.59.13 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Apr 2022 10:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 10:59:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Christian Hopps Cc: netmod@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Randy Presuhn In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 17:59:19 -0000 Hi - On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: .. > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's point). So, > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the AD in > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. That's not the impression one gets from modules like https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is willing to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. Randy From nobody Fri Apr 8 11:09:53 2022 Return-Path: <010001800a5e2c26-2e2cf494-8657-48b0-86fa-cb793050c4e0-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969A13A1A43 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 11:09:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oQDGzU4sXAyK for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A83F43A1A47 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1649441385; h=From:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Message-Id:Date:To:Feedback-ID; bh=VuM8oxCQ4njsJqRM3d8eOHtvD9XjVHK/q2Zp1B/cI5Y=; b=MrDDFkM+qB9pQxDctQKzmEvdFj4eaRXJHcD/W5Pz5dow3gKtT6dj7k7K8qEL1dmo bOpCpwQUN/mdyIPixNruu4VowfToMQTCsE9UvKNXlDc3Ykbh9/KM/xQ6tDD6Y4suhT9 eP4P9WOUpUSY4FYcPeF3R6wBiHksHEHV/xVSn6jY= From: Kent Watsen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_ACA820B0-DC70-46BA-9C4F-AFDBEB7C0347" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Message-ID: <010001800a5e2c26-2e2cf494-8657-48b0-86fa-cb793050c4e0-000000@email.amazonses.com> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 18:09:45 +0000 To: "netmod@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.04.08-54.240.8.96 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 18:09:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ACA820B0-DC70-46BA-9C4F-AFDBEB7C0347 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This message begins a Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on = draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06, per the chair-action from the 113 = session (minutes = )= . The WGLC will close in two-weeks (Apr 22). Here is a direct link to = the HTML version of the draft: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags = Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it is = ready for publication", are welcome! This is useful and important, even = from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also welcomed at = this time. Please be aware that this draft has declared IPR = indicating that license may = entail possible royalty/fee. Also, this exchange between Lou and Qin on = 8/30/2020 (mailman = ): [Lou] Since this work is derived from work that I contributed to, I'd be = interested in hearing what new mechanism(s) is/are covered by the IPR = disclosure prior to supporting WG adoption. I'm not asking in order to = debate this, as that is something for other venues, I'm merely asking = that you state for the record what new mechanism is covered. [Qin] Thanks for asking, different from module level tag defined in = draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags , this work provide data node level tag = definition, use these data node level tag definition to provide hint or = indication to selection filter in the YANG push and tell the collector = or subscriber which specific category data objects needs to fetched. Kent (as co-chair) --Apple-Mail=_ACA820B0-DC70-46BA-9C4F-AFDBEB7C0347 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
This message begins a Working Group Last Call (WGLC) = on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06, per the chair-action from the = 113 session (minutes).  The WGLC will close in two-weeks = (Apr 22).  Here is a direct link to the HTML version of the = draft:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-node-ta= gs

Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document = and believe it is ready for publication", are welcome!  This is = useful and important, even from authors. Objections, concerns, and = suggestions are also welcomed at this time.

Please be aware that this draft = has declared IPR indicating that license may entail = possible royalty/fee. Also, this exchange between Lou and Qin on = 8/30/2020 (mailman):

[Lou] Since this work is = derived from work that I contributed to, I'd be interested in hearing = what new mechanism(s) is/are covered by the IPR disclosure prior to = supporting WG adoption.  I'm not asking in order to debate = this, as that is something for other venues, I'm merely asking that you = state for the record what new mechanism is covered.

[Qin] Thanks for asking, = different from module level tag defined in draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags = , this work provide data node level tag definition, use these data = node level tag definition to provide hint or indication = to selection filter in the YANG push and tell the collector or = subscriber which specific category data objects needs to = fetched.


Kent (as = co-chair)

= --Apple-Mail=_ACA820B0-DC70-46BA-9C4F-AFDBEB7C0347-- From nobody Fri Apr 8 11:10:29 2022 Return-Path: <010001800a5e4509-3550b480-9a31-42e2-961c-44cba56525a8-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BAD3A1A4C for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 11:10:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wi3RyflNAP7o for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 11:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-93.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-93.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4A2D3A1A43 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 11:09:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1649441392; h=From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Message-Id:Date:Cc:To:Feedback-ID; bh=tayWnV3oUw3E0qHDlxKL611edC+G6UD12PwxoLrucZ0=; b=PZQ4XQMEQiVwsAQJrFhQXk+mk0vVuAKcJX8BaWHk5G1zZCdV+ZqyO57RdiD8ra3m kX1oqXmorNjTcqE29eEv0TMl2L6DxwkeBe7j2/H0Ii6p0XwRqKAPulO795DG9/dicRh AsLf1PCRjHKeG72+1+O+5cUp9hPviCVmPAe44D/g= From: Kent Watsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Message-ID: <010001800a5e4509-3550b480-9a31-42e2-961c-44cba56525a8-000000@email.amazonses.com> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 18:09:51 +0000 Cc: Liang Geng , "netmod@ietf.org" To: Qin Wu , Benoit Claise , Peng Liu , Zongpeng Du , Mohamed Boucadair X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.04.08-54.240.48.93 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] IPR Poll on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 18:10:04 -0000 [ Note: existing IPR declaration: https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/4216 ] Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of WG Last Call: Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? Please state either: "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" or "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? If yes to the above, please state either: "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" or "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each author. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. Thank you, Kent (Co-Chair) PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your response. 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([2601:646:9300:607:fd1c:1203:39e2:75e2]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d59-20020a17090a6f4100b001cb4b786e64sm2907875pjk.28.2022.04.08.13.45.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Apr 2022 13:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <28570b96-a7a0-1aee-9104-2402892a2089@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 13:45:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> <72050246-8379-40CE-9171-110997FB0D5C@cisco.com> From: Randy Presuhn In-Reply-To: <72050246-8379-40CE-9171-110997FB0D5C@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 20:45:10 -0000 Hi - On 2022-04-08 12:25 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: ... > If you look at the existing YANG RFCs rather than drafts that are confirming to the error, you'll notice that they don't use the no-zone types: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8344/ ... Huh? RFC 8344 *does* use inet:ipv4-address-no-zone and inet:ipv6-address-no-zone. > Also, if you look at the SNMP RFC 4001, you'll note that the base types do not include the zone index and RFC8344 references the MIB types using the base types (see snippet below). RFC 4001 addresses the limitation of the IpAddress SMIv2 base type, which is inherently unsuitable for IPv6 addresses. The new address types defined in RFC 4001 have OCTET STRING as their base type. The "base type" relationship you seem to be inferring reads too much into the labels, which are merely mnemonic. One might argue about the suitability of any particular (non)system of mnemonics, but the nature of these beasts is that we can't significantly change them once their published. > Clearly, it was wrong to make the IP addresses including the zone the default How is it a "default"? Both zonable and zoneless types are available to the model developer. Nothing makes one or the other a default. > and I'm not sure why there is all this effort not to just admit, fix the RFC 6991 BIS version, and be done with it. 30+ years of tradition (and BCP) not permitting types to be changed after they've been published, I suppose, motivated by our total lack of control over unpublished usage of these types after their definitions have been published. If there were actually something wrong with the semantics or syntax, I'm sure there would be more sympathy for the argument. But the heart of the argument is that the types label's mnemonicity is poor. That, coupled with the collateral damage resulting from a "fix", makes the whole argument terribly unpersuasive to me, particularly when the definition in question was been published, implemented, and deployed years ago. 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10FFE3A09B5; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 04:43:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IJSQcGNITf0m; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 04:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41373A0CE9; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 04:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ja.int.chopps.org.chopps.org (047-026-251-217.res.spectrum.com [47.26.251.217]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 219A87D05D; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 11:43:40 +0000 (UTC) References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> <72050246-8379-40CE-9171-110997FB0D5C@cisco.com> <28570b96-a7a0-1aee-9104-2402892a2089@alumni.stanford.edu> User-agent: mu4e 1.7.12; emacs 28.0.92 From: Christian Hopps To: Randy Presuhn Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2022 07:36:42 -0400 In-reply-to: <28570b96-a7a0-1aee-9104-2402892a2089@alumni.stanford.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2022 11:43:46 -0000 Randy Presuhn writes: > 30+ years of tradition (and BCP) not permitting types to be changed > after they've been published, I suppose, motivated by our total lack > of control over unpublished usage of these types after their definitions > have been published. > > If there were actually something wrong with the semantics or syntax, > I'm sure there would be more sympathy for the argument. But the heart > of the argument is that the types label's mnemonicity is poor. That, > coupled with the collateral damage resulting from a "fix", makes > the whole argument terribly unpersuasive to me, particularly > when the definition in question was been published, implemented, and > deployed years ago. FWIW, I'm not arguing for this change; however, to be fair, isn't this also about the existing published modules that are using the incorrect type? Thanks, Chris. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr From nobody Sat Apr 9 06:40:58 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F6173A07DD for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 06:40:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OELenTy2c19T for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 06:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E20523A07D7 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 06:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4KbGRg1ktLz67bZc; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 21:38:55 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.195.34.67] (10.195.34.67) by fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2375.24; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 15:40:46 +0200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 15:40:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-GB To: Kent Watsen , Qin Wu , Peng Liu , Zongpeng Du , Mohamed Boucadair CC: Liang Geng , "netmod@ietf.org" References: <010001800a5e4509-3550b480-9a31-42e2-961c-44cba56525a8-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Benoit Claise In-Reply-To: <010001800a5e4509-3550b480-9a31-42e2-961c-44cba56525a8-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.195.34.67] X-ClientProxiedBy: dggems706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.183) To fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.217) X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IPR Poll on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2022 13:40:57 -0000 "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" Regards, Benoit On 4/8/2022 8:09 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > [ Note: existing IPR declaration: https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/4216 ] > > > Authors, Contributors, WG, > > As part of WG Last Call: > > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? > > Please state either: > > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" > or > "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" > > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules > (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? > > If yes to the above, please state either: > > "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" > or > "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" > > If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think > appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor > please answer the above by responding to this email regardless > of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This > document will not advance to the next stage until a response > has been received from each author. > > NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. > > If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not > listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations > under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF > if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to > refrain from participating in any contribution or discussion related > to your undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs > listed above and > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. > > Thank you, > Kent (Co-Chair) > > PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your > response. > > > . From nobody Sat Apr 9 09:50:54 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341813A0141 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 09:50:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.912 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.912 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U44aDltdcfdF for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 09:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-f176.google.com (mail-pg1-f176.google.com [209.85.215.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7395D3A0125 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 09:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-f176.google.com with SMTP id r66so10466179pgr.3 for ; Sat, 09 Apr 2022 09:50:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=iCJ/frcG8G523T5CA4bF9apFCrSwJeDmwPctZSQiK2w=; b=V5SALnXmtQKFuEZf3/Nte5DActoQyNIjTpp3u50smX1z6PFDV/1NqLmx4VqlPOdESL yj7lP8lKG++xyJ/QfkKoP9h0sF8ImTpGk8UbLgYplLPOgWEgTkTCa5lJMtKCEm83blUf YWlYqB7aAv2omhT54s4xhpx7ZlBeA8pGVWt9NIDDkd8GavIUJN9Wy0wQlUxXpHa818oX riwQkL6tcdLmrfAjEubiPRZ3dTDxxInk1ZYqNPASke0yohBbBALHXG+qjv2TG+vlQZS9 QlQMB6/YhA1JCnOZ3s8cie1cnI8dWorpdy2JjWzxfyiU3IS8r4lwrEMNczpyKfdM/TvN ePmw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533WccrSYMZhDVncORTcyj4YBxXIcHgZYb7cCEfTIQBHjRgDxl3a X711FOR37mQVSTsnqj92WOlCltTmCGeJ2A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwpF1kZ2dnprYxKl6RQ9v9nZNlPp0XU/n0OMgO2U3m7ngSR1lw824JjeK+20thM+62X2KuIAw== X-Received: by 2002:a62:f20d:0:b0:505:6ec8:4ee6 with SMTP id m13-20020a62f20d000000b005056ec84ee6mr12236027pfh.5.1649523047766; Sat, 09 Apr 2022 09:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPV6:2601:646:9300:607:ed5d:780c:b624:4513? ([2601:646:9300:607:ed5d:780c:b624:4513]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s14-20020a63dc0e000000b0039cc76bda79sm8005269pgg.40.2022.04.09.09.50.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Apr 2022 09:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <0a79b231-3be3-1765-bf32-abfb53b9076d@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 09:50:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> <72050246-8379-40CE-9171-110997FB0D5C@cisco.com> <28570b96-a7a0-1aee-9104-2402892a2089@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Randy Presuhn In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2022 16:50:53 -0000 Hi - On 2022-04-09 4:36 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: ... > FWIW, I'm not arguing for this change; however, to be fair, isn't this > also about the existing published modules that are using the incorrect > type? No. "Incorrect type" is a bit of a mischaracterization. It's like saying using "int32" is incorrect if all that is needed is "uint16". One might say its a little sloppy or mutter "RTFM" under one's breath, but it's not "incorrect." Some modules have used a type that potentially can represent more values than are needed for the intended purpose. Whether those implementations will ever accept or produce those values will depend on whether the code, whether library, generated, or hand- crafted, enforces the tighter constraints appropriate to the usage or only the looser constraints appropriate to the type's specification. But this is also true of every usage of any type where the use can only exhibit a subset of the possible values of the type, whether that subsetting is obvious from the description or not, so I find it really hard to get excited about it. The more nuanced a repertoire of types becomes, the more likely developers won't use exactly the right one, though one would hope that these foibles are caught during the review process, at least until developers start reading the documentation for the libraries they employ. Even in these cases of "incorrect" usage, as Andy and others have pointed out, stuff still works, because those cases only require a subset of the values supported by the type. If the proposed change is made, usages requiring the full value space of the original type definition will break, and those formerly "incorrect" usages will exhibit no change in their behavior. That is, the proposed change does not improve operation of anything, and it breaks some things. For me, it's more important for stuff to work (and to not break stuff) than it is to align perfectly with the underlying aesthetics of some naming system attributed post hoc to a set of types. Randy From nobody Sat Apr 9 10:38:15 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C566F3A07E3 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 10:38:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KjQOpLztmjpQ for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 10:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb33.google.com (mail-yb1-xb33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25B8A3A07E2 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 10:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb33.google.com with SMTP id w134so20388201ybe.10 for ; Sat, 09 Apr 2022 10:38:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KUhEQK+19nHFMJ2QQ7khu2GmZ2H5o0rI/ItQZkdP7uQ=; b=RoIzC47Og3Q9dX0G1LaQVgCkj2dv9o/YddDMNA0DzVhEpOW/kb9veoQmkfvQ/e5tRz p01DshgNHxixh/iR+qfFnCNCqEemRBlP9d+s7Xa8IAkvQniaMq++MEIOBWpD1xNZph9k yOC4cAaLEbO0RwjmumYrhlOvdGojiBfrOz/eLj99KVJTO1y7MBzxakiq4zNt92jnFy5A e/2cTVxuWTFg/AY/zIoK85XhVSWDmqzVBqInK8A8gjKhNMT1arCGtY5hxMGu/AQpJl+c wYFSx9JcvNTmPqxm3Q8mL3u6G0Kj3yvyI8jBo7Ul/35xAbFS2+rAogB96nXOiXnfKxLc nFkw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KUhEQK+19nHFMJ2QQ7khu2GmZ2H5o0rI/ItQZkdP7uQ=; b=rSkaH5SbTkzi3lT4/0ZrtRZ0m6re3fBZ4Yf+EgW0eVzWfi/9sAIasuOGH0SD4PTFmu muYQzqO30Bk49MJVNZD+QBXjGl+v/BKjBE4X0sqjX7/mPcXyyBh5hORfgZop8FnhR1Fb 6ouMbQAtDotR5W7ZoAE/aHEVBfjvM19N3XlhZ/7scBJQCqJKb8vxTF11BExoGuG/89iC U6rjJPVLROm2cRoT26QpBpjGDAez9WP2YgHGs2+HwrL0TPM7p2l8Ruy14JIsSWmP+Yi/ K+3r5GHOLQjPJU+L5QfVGfs/9m4uttT9sVjRoA2DBlOoceff1AJesOqsfciG3g+qU7Sd QjlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532GH49y5Dz1FnY6NM9oYZOB7zjHmq5TG/SREc0XL96B66udPKz4 hDUBtqFUUqE7b+BkMNoE7Jdt9LDngR8Y7+sITBo5sQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJziOQLqIWPuf7utKTVj+Lve02z0FTBbAcU2TpklQDBZCI2lLP3H7JmmMImS42jHGYRAusDSmDZS83GqQinjDgk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:1351:b0:63d:d3ae:da8d with SMTP id g17-20020a056902135100b0063dd3aeda8dmr17200737ybu.445.1649525887965; Sat, 09 Apr 2022 10:38:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> <72050246-8379-40CE-9171-110997FB0D5C@cisco.com> <28570b96-a7a0-1aee-9104-2402892a2089@alumni.stanford.edu> <0a79b231-3be3-1765-bf32-abfb53b9076d@alumni.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <0a79b231-3be3-1765-bf32-abfb53b9076d@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Andy Bierman Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 10:37:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Randy Presuhn Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000099afcd05dc3c2cdf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2022 17:38:14 -0000 --00000000000099afcd05dc3c2cdf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 9:51 AM Randy Presuhn < randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote: > Hi - > > On 2022-04-09 4:36 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > ... > > FWIW, I'm not arguing for this change; however, to be fair, isn't this > > also about the existing published modules that are using the incorrect > > type? > > No. "Incorrect type" is a bit of a mischaracterization. It's like > saying using "int32" is incorrect if all that is needed is "uint16". > One might say its a little sloppy or mutter "RTFM" under one's breath, > but it's not "incorrect." > > You and Martin convinced me the ip-address type cannot be changed. There are other options. If a YANG module is using ip-address, and the WG intent was really to use ip-address-no-zone, then that module can be fixed with an Errata. The modules should not need to be updated just for this incorrect typedef usage. The type names are unfortunate but in the future this will not happen again. > Some modules have used a type that potentially can represent more > values than are needed for the intended purpose. Whether those > implementations will ever accept or produce those values will > depend on whether the code, whether library, generated, or hand- > crafted, enforces the tighter constraints appropriate to the usage > or only the looser constraints appropriate to the type's specification. > > But this is also true of every usage of any type where the use > can only exhibit a subset of the possible values of the type, > whether that subsetting is obvious from the description or not, > so I find it really hard to get excited about it. The more nuanced > a repertoire of types becomes, the more likely developers won't > use exactly the right one, though one would hope that these foibles > are caught during the review process, at least until developers > start reading the documentation for the libraries they employ. > > There are many examples where the pattern allows more strings than the intended usage. Also, a server can reject any request for any reason. That does not address the conformance problem that Acee may be concerned about. What is a server required to support for a leaf with type ip-address? The text does not look like the zone index is optional for the server to accept. > Even in these cases of "incorrect" usage, as Andy and others > have pointed out, stuff still works, because those cases only > require a subset of the values supported by the type. If the > proposed change is made, usages requiring the full value space of > the original type definition will break, and those formerly > "incorrect" usages will exhibit no change in their behavior. > > It works because clients are not sending addresses with a zone index. I agree with Martin that the NC/RC server is always obligated to reject a request it cannot fulfill, regardless of the typedef. > That is, the proposed change does not improve operation of > anything, and it breaks some things. > > yes -- too many years out in the wild this way to switch type names around now. > For me, it's more important for stuff to work (and to not break > stuff) than it is to align perfectly with the underlying aesthetics > of some naming system attributed post hoc to a set of types. > > Randy > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --00000000000099afcd05dc3c2cdf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 9:51 AM Randy = Presuhn <randy_pres= uhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:
Hi -

On 2022-04-09 4:36 AM, Christian Hopps wrote:
...
> FWIW, I'm not arguing for this change; however, to be fair, isn= 9;t this
> also about the existing published modules that are using the incorrect=
> type?

No.=C2=A0 "Incorrect type" is a bit of a mischaracterization.=C2= =A0 It's like
saying using "int32" is incorrect if all that is needed is "= uint16".
One might say its a little sloppy or mutter "RTFM" under one'= s breath,
but it's not "incorrect."


You and Martin convinced=C2=A0me the i= p-address type cannot be changed.
There are other options.
<= div>
If a YANG module is using ip-address, and the WG intent = was really to
use ip-address-no-zone, then that module can be fix= ed with an Errata.
The modules should not need to be updated just= for this incorrect typedef usage.

The type names = are unfortunate=C2=A0but in the future this will not happen again.

=C2=A0
Some modules have used a type that potentially can represent more
values than are needed for the intended purpose.=C2=A0 Whether those
implementations will ever accept or produce those values will
depend on whether the code, whether library, generated, or hand-
crafted, enforces the tighter constraints appropriate to the usage
or only the looser constraints appropriate to the type's specification.=

But this is also true of every usage of any type where the use
can only exhibit a subset of the possible values of the type,
whether that subsetting is obvious from the description or not,
so I find it really hard to get excited about it.=C2=A0 The more nuanced a repertoire of types becomes, the more likely developers won't
use exactly the right one, though one would hope that these foibles
are caught during the review process, at least until developers
start reading the documentation for the libraries they employ.


There are many examples where the patt= ern allows more strings
than the intended usage.=C2=A0 Also, a se= rver can reject any request for any reason.

That d= oes not address the conformance problem that Acee may be concerned about.
What is a server required to support for a leaf with type ip-addre= ss?
The text does not look like the zone index is optional for th= e server to accept.

=C2=A0
Even in these cases of "incorrect" usage, as Andy and others
have pointed out, stuff still works, because those cases only
require a subset of the values supported by the type.=C2=A0 If the
proposed change is made, usages requiring the full value space of
the original type definition will break, and those formerly
"incorrect" usages will exhibit no change in their behavior.



It works because client= s are not sending addresses with a zone index.
I agree with Marti= n that the NC/RC server is always obligated to reject a request
i= t cannot fulfill, regardless of the typedef.=C2=A0

=C2=A0
That is, the proposed change does not improve operation of
anything, and it breaks some things.


yes -- too many years out in the wild = this way to switch type names around now.

=C2=A0
For me, it's more important for stuff to work (and to not break
stuff) than it is to align perfectly with the underlying aesthetics
of some naming system attributed post hoc to a set of types.

Randy

Andy
=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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ABdhPJxsfd2hqadizBL0Z3R0ql+8zuCIoK5HTSMdudHN0k3d5+QlWxX5Zr+uN5E1DNFsIoEsPwx4a2TKIpkw9vIoQds= X-Received: by 2002:a5b:247:0:b0:624:4d24:94ee with SMTP id g7-20020a5b0247000000b006244d2494eemr17500888ybp.197.1649528917443; Sat, 09 Apr 2022 11:28:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> <72050246-8379-40CE-9171-110997FB0D5C@cisco.com> <28570b96-a7a0-1aee-9104-2402892a2089@alumni.stanford.edu> <0a79b231-3be3-1765-bf32-abfb53b9076d@alumni.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 11:28:26 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Cc: Randy Presuhn , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002bdaef05dc3ce1c4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2022 18:28:45 -0000 --0000000000002bdaef05dc3ce1c4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 11:00 AM Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Hi Andy, > > > > My opinion remains the same that RFC 4001 got it right with types > including the zone specification being the exception rather than the > default. I know that when people think IP address, they think the dotted = 4 > octet without =E2=80=9C%ZZZZ=E2=80=9D appended. I=E2=80=99d still like to= know if there are > products that actually make use of the zone? > > > I agree the YANG types should have been named differently, but it was not flagged as a problem 12 years ago.. > See inline responses in the unsnipped email below. > > > > *From: *netmod on behalf of Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com> > *Date: *Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 1:38 PM > *To: *Randy Presuhn > *Cc: *"lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 9:51 AM Randy Presuhn < > randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote: > > Hi - > > On 2022-04-09 4:36 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > ... > > FWIW, I'm not arguing for this change; however, to be fair, isn't this > > also about the existing published modules that are using the incorrect > > type? > > No. "Incorrect type" is a bit of a mischaracterization. It's like > saying using "int32" is incorrect if all that is needed is "uint16". > One might say its a little sloppy or mutter "RTFM" under one's breath, > but it's not "incorrect." > > > > You and Martin convinced me the ip-address type cannot be changed. > > There are other options. > > > > If a YANG module is using ip-address, and the WG intent was really to > > use ip-address-no-zone, then that module can be fixed with an Errata. > > The modules should not need to be updated just for this incorrect typedef > usage. > > > > The type names are unfortunate but in the future this will not happen > again. > > > > Well, these are probably some of the most ubiquitous types in the YANG an= d > forcing everyone to use the -no-zone types is more a tragedy than merely > unfortunate. > It must not be a real problem or it would not have taken 12 years to surface. The typedef is silent about ignoring an explicit zone index in an ipv4-address value. If that is allowed, then maybe existing modules do not need to change. IMO they do not need to change anyway, since a server can just reject an address with a zone index in it. I don't think the YANG author or reader is that burdened if '-no-zone' is added to the type name. > > > > > > Some modules have used a type that potentially can represent more > values than are needed for the intended purpose. Whether those > implementations will ever accept or produce those values will > depend on whether the code, whether library, generated, or hand- > crafted, enforces the tighter constraints appropriate to the usage > or only the looser constraints appropriate to the type's specification. > > But this is also true of every usage of any type where the use > can only exhibit a subset of the possible values of the type, > whether that subsetting is obvious from the description or not, > so I find it really hard to get excited about it. The more nuanced > a repertoire of types becomes, the more likely developers won't > use exactly the right one, though one would hope that these foibles > are caught during the review process, at least until developers > start reading the documentation for the libraries they employ. > > > > There are many examples where the pattern allows more strings > > than the intended usage. Also, a server can reject any request for any > reason. > > > > That does not address the conformance problem that Acee may be concerned > about. > > What is a server required to support for a leaf with type ip-address? > > The text does not look like the zone index is optional for the server to > accept. > > > > > > Even in these cases of "incorrect" usage, as Andy and others > have pointed out, stuff still works, because those cases only > require a subset of the values supported by the type. If the > proposed change is made, usages requiring the full value space of > the original type definition will break, and those formerly > "incorrect" usages will exhibit no change in their behavior. > > > > > > It works because clients are not sending addresses with a zone index. > > I agree with Martin that the NC/RC server is always obligated to reject a > request > > it cannot fulfill, regardless of the typedef. > > > > I thought Martin said a server not supporting zone could accept the IP > address and simply ignore the zone? This would seem to be a better option= s > than using the -no-zone types. > Maybe. There is no text in the typedefs but descriptions in the leaf or other data node could specify this behavior, or it could be an implementation decision. > > > > That is, the proposed change does not improve operation of > anything, and it breaks some things. > > > > yes -- too many years out in the wild this way to switch type names aroun= d > now. > > > > I know I may be being too pragmatic, but does anyone support zone via > %zzzz? > We cannot get the full picture on this mailing list, after so many years. Maybe just a clarification in the typedef is needed - A server MAY ignore a zone index specified in an ip-address IMO a module SHOULD use ip-address-no-zone going forward, if the intent is to disallow a zone index. Some modules have already done so. > > > Thanks, > > Acee > Andy > > > > > For me, it's more important for stuff to work (and to not break > stuff) than it is to align perfectly with the underlying aesthetics > of some naming system attributed post hoc to a set of types. > > Randy > > > > Andy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > --0000000000002bdaef05dc3ce1c4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 11:00 AM Acee = Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> = wrote:

Hi Andy,

=C2=A0

My opinion remains the same that RFC 4001 got it rig= ht with types including the zone specification being the exception rather t= han the default. I know that when people think IP address, they think the d= otted 4 octet without =E2=80=9C%ZZZZ=E2=80=9D appended. I=E2=80=99d still like to know if there are products that actually make us= e of the zone?

=C2=A0


<= /div>
I agree the YANG types should have been named differently,
<= div>but it was not flagged as a problem 12 years ago..
=C2=A0

See inline responses in the unsnipped email below. <= u>

=C2=A0

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org<= /a>> on behalf of Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 1:38 PM
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu>
Cc: "lsr@ietf= .org" <lsr@ie= tf.org>, "= netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extend= ed-lsa-yang-10.txt

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 9= :51 AM Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:

Hi -

On 2022-04-09 4:36 AM, Christian Hopps wrote:
...
> FWIW, I'm not arguing for this change; however, to be fair, isn= 9;t this
> also about the existing published modules that are using the incorrect=
> type?

No.=C2=A0 "Incorrect type" is a bit of a mischaracterization.=C2= =A0 It's like
saying using "int32" is incorrect if all that is needed is "= uint16".
One might say its a little sloppy or mutter "RTFM" under one'= s breath,
but it's not "incorrect."

=C2=A0

You and Martin convinced= =C2=A0me the ip-address type cannot be changed.

There are other options.=

=C2=A0

If a YANG module is usin= g ip-address, and the WG intent was really to

use ip-address-no-zone, = then that module can be fixed with an Errata.

The modules should not n= eed to be updated just for this incorrect typedef usage.

=C2=A0

The type names are unfor= tunate=C2=A0but in the future this will not happen again.

=C2=A0

Well, these are probably some of the most ubiquitous= types in the YANG and forcing everyone to use the -no-zone types is more a= tragedy than merely unfortunate.


It must not be a real problem or it would not have= taken 12 years to surface.
The typedef is silent about ignoring = an explicit zone index in an ipv4-address value.
If that is allow= ed, then maybe existing modules do not need to change.
IMO they d= o not need to change anyway, since a server can just reject an
ad= dress with a zone index in it.

I don't think t= he YANG author or reader is that burdened if '-no-zone' is added to= the type name.


<= div>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Some modules have used a type that potentially can represent more
values than are needed for the intended purpose.=C2=A0 Whether those
implementations will ever accept or produce those values will
depend on whether the code, whether library, generated, or hand-
crafted, enforces the tighter constraints appropriate to the usage
or only the looser constraints appropriate to the type's specification.=

But this is also true of every usage of any type where the use
can only exhibit a subset of the possible values of the type,
whether that subsetting is obvious from the description or not,
so I find it really hard to get excited about it.=C2=A0 The more nuanced a repertoire of types becomes, the more likely developers won't
use exactly the right one, though one would hope that these foibles
are caught during the review process, at least until developers
start reading the documentation for the libraries they employ.

=C2=A0

There are many examples = where the pattern allows more strings

than the intended usage.= =C2=A0 Also, a server can reject any request for any reason.<= /p>

=C2=A0

That does not address th= e conformance problem that Acee may be concerned about.

What is a server require= d to support for a leaf with type ip-address?

The text does not look l= ike the zone index is optional for the server to accept.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Even in these cases of "incorrect" usage, as Andy and others
have pointed out, stuff still works, because those cases only
require a subset of the values supported by the type.=C2=A0 If the
proposed change is made, usages requiring the full value space of
the original type definition will break, and those formerly
"incorrect" usages will exhibit no change in their behavior.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

It works because clients= are not sending addresses with a zone index.

I agree with Martin that= the NC/RC server is always obligated to reject a request

it cannot fulfill, regar= dless of the typedef.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I thought Martin said a server not supporting zone c= ould accept the IP address and simply ignore the zone? This would seem to b= e a better options than using the -no-zone types.



Maybe. There is no = text in the typedefs but descriptions in the leaf or other
data n= ode could specify this behavior, or it could be an implementation decision.=



<= div>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

That is, the proposed change does not improve operation of
anything, and it breaks some things.

=C2=A0

yes -- too many years ou= t in the wild this way to switch type names around now.

=C2=A0

I know I may be being too pragmatic, but does anyone= support zone via %zzzz?


=C2=A0We cannot get the full picture on this mailing list, = after so many years.

Maybe just a clarification in= the typedef is needed

=C2=A0 - A server MAY ignor= e a zone index specified in an ip-address

IMO a mo= dule SHOULD use ip-address-no-zone going forward,
if the intent i= s to disallow a zone index. Some modules have already done so.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Acee

<= div>
Andy
=C2=A0
<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

For me, it's more im= portant for stuff to work (and to not break
stuff) than it is to align perfectly with the underlying aesthetics
of some naming system attributed post hoc to a set of types.

Randy

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

--0000000000002bdaef05dc3ce1c4-- From nobody Sat Apr 9 20:54:38 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFEEC3A158C for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 20:54:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VV1M3r3nhgmy for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 20:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta1.chinamobile.com (cmccmta1.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CA983A1588 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 20:54:29 -0700 (PDT) X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.81]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app01-12001 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee1625254f275f-58a42; 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = =0A
<= span>
Hi, all

"No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies= to this draft"

Regards
Peng Liu
=0A
=0A
liupengyjy@chinamobile.com
=
=0A
 
Date: 2022-04-10 09:49
Subject: RE: IPR P= oll on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06
Hi, all=0A
 
=0A
"No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applie= s to this draft"
=0A
 
=0A
Best Regards
=0AZongpeng Du
=0A
 
=0A
-----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5= =8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----
=0A
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Benoit Clai= se [mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com]
=0A
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6= =97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2022=E5=B9=B44=E6=9C=889=E6=97=A5 21:41
=0A
=E6= =94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Kent Watsen; Qin Wu; Peng Liu; Zongpeng Du; Moha= med Boucadair
=0A
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Liang Geng; netmod@ietf.org=
=0A
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: IPR Poll on draft-ietf-netmod-node-t= ags-06
=0A
 
=0A
"No, I'm not aware of any IPR tha= t applies to this draft"
=0A
 
=0A
Regards, Benoit<= /div>=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
O= n 4/8/2022 8:09 PM, Kent Watsen wrote:
=0A
> [ Note: existing = IPR declaration: https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/4216 ]
=0A
>=
=0A
>
=0A
> Authors, Contributors, WG,
=0A>
=0A
> As part of WG Last Call:
=0A
>
= =0A
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified a= bove?
=0A
>
=0A
> Please state either:
=0A>
=0A
> "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to th= is draft"
=0A
> or
=0A
> "Yes, I'm aware of IPR t= hat applies to this draft"
=0A
>
=0A
> If so, has = this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
=0A
>= ; (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)?
=0A
>
= =0A
> If yes to the above, please state either:
=0A
>=0A
> "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF= IPR rules"
=0A
> or
=0A
> "No, the IPR has not b= een disclosed"
=0A
>
=0A
> If you answer no, pleas= e provide any additional details you think
=0A
> appropriate. = If you are listed as a document author or contributor
=0A
> pl= ease answer the above by responding to this email regardless
=0A
= > of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This
=0A> document will not advance to the next stage until a response
= =0A
> has been received from each author.
=0A
>
= =0A
> NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO = LINES.
=0A
>
=0A
> If you are on the WG email list= or attend WG meetings but are not
=0A
> listed as an author o= r contributor, we remind you of your obligations
=0A
> under t= he IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF
=0A
>= ; if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to
= =0A
> refrain from participating in any contribution or discussion = related
=0A
> to your undisclosed IPR. For more information, p= lease see the RFCs
=0A
> listed above and
=0A
> ht= tp://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
= =0A
>
=0A
> Thank you,
=0A
> Kent (Co-Chair= )
=0A
>
=0A
> PS Please include all listed in the = headers of this message in your
=0A
> response.
=0A
&= gt;
=0A
>
=0A
> .
=0A
 
=0A =0A
=0A ------=_001_NextPart568432356786_=------ From nobody Sun Apr 10 03:44:14 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BAE73A11B2 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2022 03:44:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2IsQHrrslSY2 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2022 03:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEDF73A11AF for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2022 03:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml734-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.201]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4KbpSy68hZz67P7p; Sun, 10 Apr 2022 18:41:54 +0800 (CST) Received: from canpemm500005.china.huawei.com (7.192.104.229) by fraeml734-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.215) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2375.24; Sun, 10 Apr 2022 12:44:02 +0200 Received: from canpemm500005.china.huawei.com ([7.192.104.229]) by canpemm500005.china.huawei.com ([7.192.104.229]) with mapi id 15.01.2375.024; Sun, 10 Apr 2022 18:44:01 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Kent Watsen , Benoit Claise , Peng Liu , "Zongpeng Du" , Mohamed Boucadair CC: Liang Geng , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IPR Poll on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 Thread-Index: AdhMx5/1SmrAH60ReUm3i2L0Wv7cDA== Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 10:44:00 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.100.16] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Sun, 10 Apr 2022 20:52:57 +0000 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 20:42:53 +0000 (UTC) From: Reshad Rahman Reply-To: Reshad Rahman To: Christian Hopps , "Acee Lindem (acee)" Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Message-ID: <952356955.244298.1649623373691@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_244297_631077841.1649623373688" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20048 YMailNorrin Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 20:53:05 -0000 ------=_Part_244297_631077841.1649623373688 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Inline. On Wednesday, April 6, 2022, 06:04:42 PM EDT, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: =20 =20 Hi Chris (as WG member), =EF=BB=BFOn 4/5/22, 10:47 AM, "Christian Hopps" wrote: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Apr 5, 2022, at 09:48, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > [wg-member] =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The thing is that most of the existing RFCs use inet:ip-add= ress rather inet:ip-address-no-zone. It would be better to if we could fix = inet:ip-address in RFC 6991 BIS to not include the zone similar to what was= done in the MIB (RFC 4001). However, we're getting the passive aggressive = treatment on this point.=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > If the netmod WG doesn't have the integrity and strength to= fix RFC 6991 in the BIS version, we should consider changing the OSPF and = IS-IS base specifications before publication to use inet:ip-address-no-zone= .=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [as wg-member] =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think we should do the right thing in our (LSR) modules no = matter what, again, what harm does it do to get it right in the modules und= er LSR WGs direct control? Actually this is a very bad idea. We don't want to endorse the error in RFC= 6991 that could be fixed in the BIS document. I'm certainly not going to c= hange the documents I authored when the world expects an IP address to not = include a zone. I sent an Email to the RFC 9127 BIS (which is currently in = IESG review) authors about this issue and apparently they agree with me as = they chose not to respond.=C2=A0=C2=A0Just way behind on IETF emails. I= can't speak for the other authors but I don't agree (too late). But I thin= k we should make the change in 9127-bis. And follow current guidelines, as = others have mentioned, to tackle what's in 6991-bis. Regards,Reshad. Thanks, Acee =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The netmod change is a much larger action with a large blast = radius (not saying it's wrong), and perhaps most importantly is also outsid= e of LSR WG control. :) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Chris. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [wg-member] =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Thanks, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Acee=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 4/5/22, 9:33 AM, "Christian Hopps" w= rote: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If they are new leaf values why not use the co= rrect no-zone variant, what's the harm in doing it right? It has a nice sid= e effect of basically restricting the base spec zone values to no-zone only= . :) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Chris. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [wg member] =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On Apr 4, 2022, at 12:30, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> In the MIB,=C2=A0 the base types don't include the zone - = https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4001.txt =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> It was very unfortunate that the YANG IP addresses include= d the zone in the base types.=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Tom - I think it would be hard to find an author where inc= luding the zone was a conscious decision.=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Thanks, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Acee =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 4/4/22, 11:55 AM, "tom petch" wro= te: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 From: Acee Lindem (acee) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 Sent: 04 April 2022 15:58 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 Hi Tom, +Juergen, netmod WG, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 I think the question you ought to be asking is wheth= er the base IPv4 and IPv6 address types should be modified to NOT include t= he zone and the zone versions should be added as a separate YANG type. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 The RFC 6991 is under revision now: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-r= fc6991-bis/ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 However, I'm not sure if the painful backward compat= ibility discussions could be overcome.=C2=A0 We'd also have to admit that i= t was a big mistake to include the zone in the base addresses. In any case,= I don't think we just start using the no-zone types when the base addresse= s types are used everywhere. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 Well, there are plenty of uses of the no-zone types = as well, so some authors, some YANG doctors, have made the conscious choice= to use them.=C2=A0 I cannot do a search just now but I see no-zone in the = dhc and I2NSF WG I-Ds, and there are others. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 Also, some authors want the zone information as part= of their leaf. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 Tom Petch =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 Thanks, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 Acee =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 On 4/4/22, 7:11 AM, "Lsr on behalf of tom petch" wrote: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I assume that this is a refresh while = waiting for ospf.yang to wind its way through the system =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I wonder if the ip address should be t= he no-zone variant from RFC6991 - I never know the answer to that so keep a= sking. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some time the contact needs updating t= o https://datatracker and the TLP to 'Revised' =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tom Petch =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________________= __ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Lsr on be= half of internet-drafts@ietf.org =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sent: 07 March 2022 03:14 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cc: lsr@ietf.org =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-= lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A New Internet-Draft is available from= the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This draft is a work item of the Link = State Routing WG of the IETF. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : YANG Model for OSPFv3 Extended LSAs =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Acee Lindem =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sharmila Palani =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yingzhen Qu =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.tx= t =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 29 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 2022-03-06 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Abstract: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document defines a = YANG data model augmenting the IETF OSPF YANG =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 model to provide support= for OSPFv3 Link State Advertisement (LSA) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Extensibility as defined= in RFC 8362.=C2=A0 OSPFv3 Extended LSAs provide =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 extensible TLV-based LSA= s for the base LSA types defined in RFC 5340. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The IETF datatracker status page for t= his draft is: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft= -ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang/ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 There is also an htmlized version avai= lable at: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/= draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A diff from the previous version is av= ailable at: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddr= aft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Internet-Drafts are also available by = rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________________= _________ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lsr mailing list =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lsr@ietf.org =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/= lsr =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________________= _________ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lsr mailing list =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lsr@ietf.org =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/= lsr =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> _______________________________________________ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Lsr mailing list =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Lsr@ietf.org =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20 _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod =20 ------=_Part_244297_631077841.1649623373688 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Inli= ne.

On Wednesday, April 6, 20= 22, 06:04:42 PM EDT, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.o= rg> wrote:


Hi Chris (as WG member),

=EF=BB=BFOn 4/5/22, 10:47 AM, "Christian Hopps" &l= t;chopps@chopps.org> wrote:



    > On Apr 5= , 2022, at 09:48, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wr= ote:
    >
    = > [wg-member]
    >
&n= bsp;   > The thing is that most of the existing RFCs use inet:ip-ad= dress rather inet:ip-address-no-zone. It would be better to if we could fix= inet:ip-address in RFC 6991 BIS to not include the zone similar to what wa= s done in the MIB (RFC 4001). However, we're getting the passive aggressive= treatment on this point.
    >
    > If the netmod WG doesn't have the integrity an= d strength to fix RFC 6991 in the BIS version, we should consider changing = the OSPF and IS-IS base specifications before publication to use inet:ip-ad= dress-no-zone.

    [as wg-m= ember]

    I think we should= do the right thing in our (LSR) modules no matter what, again, what harm d= oes it do to get it right in the modules under LSR WGs direct control?

Actually this is a very bad idea. We don't= want to endorse the error in RFC 6991 that could be fixed in the BIS docum= ent. I'm certainly not going to change the documents I authored when the wo= rld expects an IP address to not include a zone. I sent an Email to the RFC= 9127 BIS (which is currently in IESG review) authors about this issue and = apparently they agree with me as they chose not to respond. 
<RR> 
Just way behind on IETF emails. I can't speak for the = other authors but I don't agree (too late). But I think we should make the = change in 9127-bis. And follow current guidelines, as others have mentioned= , to tackle what's in 6991-bis.

Regards,
Reshad.

Thanks,

Acee

    The netmod change is a much larger action with a= large blast radius (not saying it's wrong), and perhaps most importantly i= s also outside of LSR WG control. :)

&= nbsp;   Thanks,
    Chris.
    [wg-member]


    > Thanks,
    > A= cee
    >
    = > On 4/5/22, 9:33 AM, "Christian Hopps" <chopps@chopps.or= g> wrote:
    >
&n= bsp;   >    If they are new leaf values why not use the c= orrect no-zone variant, what's the harm in doing it right? It has a nice si= de effect of basically restricting the base spec zone values to no-zone onl= y. :)
    >
   = >    Thanks,
    >   = ; Chris.
    >    [wg member]
    >
    >> = On Apr 4, 2022, at 12:30, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
   = >>
    >> In the MIB,  the b= ase types don't include the zone - https://www.ietf= .org/rfc/rfc4001.txt
    >>
    >> It was very unfortunate that the YANG IP a= ddresses included the zone in the base types.
  &nb= sp; >>
    >> Tom - I think it wou= ld be hard to find an author where including the zone was a conscious decis= ion.
    >>
  &n= bsp; >> Thanks,
    >> Acee
    >>
    >>= On 4/4/22, 11:55 AM, "tom petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com= > wrote:
    >>
&nb= sp;   >>  From: Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco= .com>
    >>  Sent: 04 April= 2022 15:58
    >>
&nb= sp;   >>  Hi Tom, +Juergen, netmod WG,
&= nbsp;   >>
    >>  I th= ink the question you ought to be asking is whether the base IPv4 and IPv6 a= ddress types should be modified to NOT include the zone and the zone versio= ns should be added as a separate YANG type.
   = >>
    >>  The RFC 6991 is = under revision now:
    >>
    >>  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis/=
    >>
  &nb= sp; >>  However, I'm not sure if the painful backward compatibi= lity discussions could be overcome.  We'd also have to admit that it w= as a big mistake to include the zone in the base addresses. In any case, I = don't think we just start using the no-zone types when the base addresses t= ypes are used everywhere.
    >>
    >>  <tp>
 = ;   >>
    >>  Well, th= ere are plenty of uses of the no-zone types as well, so some authors, some = YANG doctors, have made the conscious choice to use them.  I cannot do= a search just now but I see no-zone in the dhc and I2NSF WG I-Ds, and ther= e are others.
    >>
&= nbsp;   >>  Also, some authors want the zone information a= s part of their leaf.
    >>
    >>  Tom Petch
  &nb= sp; >>
    >>  Thanks,
    >>  Acee
  &n= bsp; >>
    >>
=     >>
    >>  On = 4/4/22, 7:11 AM, "Lsr on behalf of tom petch" <lsr-bounce= s@ietf.org on behalf of ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote= :
    >>
   = >>      I assume that this is a refresh while waitin= g for ospf.yang to wind its way through the system
 =   >>
    >>    &nb= sp; I wonder if the ip address should be the no-zone variant from RFC6991 = - I never know the answer to that so keep asking.
  =   >>
    >>    &nbs= p; Some time the contact needs updating to https://datatracker and the TLP to 'Revised'
    >>
    >>      Tom Petch
    >>
    >>&= nbsp;     ________________________________________
    >>      From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of internet-dr= afts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>    >>      Sent: 07 March= 2022 03:14
    >>      T= o: i-d-announce@ietf.org
   = ; >>      Cc: lsr@ietf.org
    >>      Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: d= raft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt
  &nbs= p; >>
    >>
&n= bsp;   >>      A New Internet-Draft is available= from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
  &nb= sp; >>      This draft is a work item of the Link Sta= te Routing WG of the IETF.
    >>
    >>           =   Title          : YANG Model for OSPFv3 E= xtended LSAs
    >>      &= nbsp;       Authors        : Acee Lind= em
    >>        &nbs= p;                     &n= bsp; Sharmila Palani
    >>   =                     &nbs= p;       Yingzhen Qu
    >&g= t;              Filename    &= nbsp;   : draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt
    >>             = Pages          : 29
  &n= bsp; >>              Date  &= nbsp;         : 2022-03-06
  &nb= sp; >>
    >>      = Abstract:
    >>      &nb= sp;   This document defines a YANG data model augmenting the IETF OSPF= YANG
    >>        &= nbsp; model to provide support for OSPFv3 Link State Advertisement (LSA)    >>          Ex= tensibility as defined in RFC 8362.  OSPFv3 Extended LSAs provide
    >>          exte= nsible TLV-based LSAs for the base LSA types defined in RFC 5340.
    >>
    >> =
    >>      The IETF dat= atracker status page for this draft is:
    >= ;>      https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extende= d-lsa-yang/
    >>
    >>      There is also an htmlized vers= ion available at:
    >>    &nb= sp; ht= tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang= -10
    >>
  =   >>      A diff from the previous version is av= ailable at:
    >>      <= a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lsr= -ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://ww= w.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10    >>
    >= ;>
    >>      Intern= et-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts    >>
    >= ;>
    >>      ______= _________________________________________
    &= gt;>      Lsr mailing list
  &nbs= p; >>      Lsr@ietf.org
=     >>      ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
   = >>
    >>      __= _____________________________________________
  &nbs= p; >>      Lsr mailing list
  =   >>      Lsr@ietf.org
    >>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
  &n= bsp; >>
    >>
=     >> _______________________________________________
    >> Lsr mailing list
&nb= sp;   >> Lsr@ietf.org
   = >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/lsr
    >
  &n= bsp; >


________= _______________________________________
netmod mailing li= st
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=
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id 15.01.2375.024; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 14:36:01 +0800 From: "maqiufang (A)" To: "'netmod@ietf.org'" Thread-Topic: [netmod] New Version Notification for draft-ma-netmod-with-system-03.txt Thread-Index: AdhNbiG9NKPdbPr7QPuQFz/AkQtSYw== Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 06:36:01 +0000 Message-ID: <76c852e5886f41829e5bf81c1876ddc1@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.100.87] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_76c852e5886f41829e5bf81c1876ddc1huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ma-netmod-with-system-03.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 06:36:18 -0000 --_000_76c852e5886f41829e5bf81c1876ddc1huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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4KcLPP3Vrpz7tSP; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 09:40:41 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1649662841; bh=GNWo36Lm5co8q+BYuhsiW6SxLECkhYFfdsL5VlAWSgw=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=SO499FXQ31lgC8P+gs4F3oyLqC0Kqk9BZ0KgS1lYsXgGy0oodsN4fyLYirY4BwN25 LhdbUv99pbNHEO1BwUgu8lkbGfKH/KyumyYkKn+ixjkMw4h/YDTlcBWKKQZWgfVkHz hX8VsCrZqFl3D58m73u31JDMty+QAAQUJUaQYOGZl2xIHof4WsT96sgOPewslbw33D AgAeFGeVrAU3+V3ghCUE9jMJzBYUlTnLLvGkt4kN3L1/kq0RsMrwJqeT1fxTSpmPmk lVWoe/9QssPErLUZN6c3IKDUIbV6GAru1VfNPEvsGUefPOcgyiR3HgMDEvJkpEfXTy 2vevS+oKM1rKw== From: To: Kent Watsen , Qin Wu , "Benoit Claise" , Peng Liu , Zongpeng Du CC: Liang Geng , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IPR Poll on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 Thread-Index: AQHYS3PZjiL9TMWA3kqpxWJAjJskvKzqV6zQ Content-Class: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 07:40:40 +0000 Message-ID: <17667_1649662841_6253DB79_17667_466_2_f88be9fb7b2647f4a8ba0b2b0d761bbe@orange.com> References: <010001800a5e4509-3550b480-9a31-42e2-961c-44cba56525a8-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <010001800a5e4509-3550b480-9a31-42e2-961c-44cba56525a8-000000@email.amazonses.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_SetDate=2022-04-11T07:39:41Z; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_Method=Privileged; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_Name=unrestricted_parent.2; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_SiteId=90c7a20a-f34b-40bf-bc48-b9253b6f5d20; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_ActionId=a34038fd-700b-4cc1-8ddb-ee7bbde0d42d; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_ContentBits=0 x-originating-ip: [10.115.27.51] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IPR Poll on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 07:41:03 -0000 Hi Kent, all,=20 No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft. Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Kent Watsen > Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 8 avril 2022 20:10 > =C0=A0: Qin Wu ; Benoit Claise > ; Peng Liu ; > Zongpeng Du ; BOUCADAIR Mohamed > INNOV/NET > Cc=A0: Liang Geng ; netmod@ietf.org > Objet=A0: IPR Poll on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 >=20 > [ Note: existing IPR declaration: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/4216 ] >=20 >=20 > Authors, Contributors, WG, >=20 > As part of WG Last Call: >=20 > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified > above? >=20 > Please state either: >=20 > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" > or > "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" >=20 > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR > rules (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? >=20 > If yes to the above, please state either: >=20 > "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR > rules" > or > "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" >=20 > If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think > appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor > please answer the above by responding to this email regardless of > whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This document > will not advance to the next stage until a response has been > received from each author. >=20 > NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO > LINES. >=20 > If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not > listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your > obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to > notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF > contribution, or to refrain from participating in any contribution > or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more > information, please see the RFCs listed above and > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProper > ty. >=20 > Thank you, > Kent (Co-Chair) >=20 > PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in > your response. >=20 ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. 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The reaction during the meeting was to followup on the mailing list, i.e., there was no conclusive answer during the meeting. I suggest that this document does not proceed until we know that it provides all mechanisms needed to support the use case described in the above mentioned I-D. If any functionality is lacking, the WG may want to investigate whether this can be addressed generically. /js On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 06:09:45PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > This message begins a Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06, per the chair-action from the 113 session (minutes ). The WGLC will close in two-weeks (Apr 22). Here is a direct link to the HTML version of the draft: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags > > Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it is ready for publication", are welcome! This is useful and important, even from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also welcomed at this time. > > Please be aware that this draft has declared IPR indicating that license may entail possible royalty/fee. Also, this exchange between Lou and Qin on 8/30/2020 (mailman ): > > [Lou] Since this work is derived from work that I contributed to, I'd be interested in hearing what new mechanism(s) is/are covered by the IPR disclosure prior to supporting WG adoption. I'm not asking in order to debate this, as that is something for other venues, I'm merely asking that you state for the record what new mechanism is covered. > > [Qin] Thanks for asking, different from module level tag defined in draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags , this work provide data node level tag definition, use these data node level tag definition to provide hint or indication to selection filter in the YANG push and tell the collector or subscriber which specific category data objects needs to fetched. > > > Kent (as co-chair) > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Apr 11 01:18:57 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C86C3A064F for ; 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It is not clear what 'self-describing' means. RFC 8819 defines "YANG Module Tags", i.e., tags that apply to entire modules. Perhaps this document should be titled "YANG Data Node Instance Tags". There should be in general a check that terminology aligns with YANG terminology. The document talks about 'YANG data object', which is not a well defined term. In fact, there are three levels of tagging, you can tag modules (RFC 8819), you can tag data nodes, and you can tag data node instances. It seems a bit unclear to me what the WGs strategy is here with covering all three levels. I have not read the document in detail yet but I find the notion of data objects and subobjects confusing. I also do not know what "massive" data object collections are or why both objects and subobjects can be modeled as YANG data nodes, or what the purpose of this statement is. When I look at ietf-data-object-tags (likely also a misnomer), then what I see is a list associating tags to anything identifiable by a nacm:node-instance-identifier. It feels like this document has a lot of hot air around something that is at the end rather basic. /js On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 06:09:45PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > This message begins a Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06, per the chair-action from the 113 session (minutes ). The WGLC will close in two-weeks (Apr 22). Here is a direct link to the HTML version of the draft: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags > > Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it is ready for publication", are welcome! This is useful and important, even from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also welcomed at this time. > > Please be aware that this draft has declared IPR indicating that license may entail possible royalty/fee. Also, this exchange between Lou and Qin on 8/30/2020 (mailman ): > > [Lou] Since this work is derived from work that I contributed to, I'd be interested in hearing what new mechanism(s) is/are covered by the IPR disclosure prior to supporting WG adoption. I'm not asking in order to debate this, as that is something for other venues, I'm merely asking that you state for the record what new mechanism is covered. > > [Qin] Thanks for asking, different from module level tag defined in draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags , this work provide data node level tag definition, use these data node level tag definition to provide hint or indication to selection filter in the YANG push and tell the collector or subscriber which specific category data objects needs to fetched. > > > Kent (as co-chair) > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Apr 11 02:13:43 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 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btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f148574a-010d-48c2-88b8-08da1ba952e6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Apr 2022 10:52:07.7641 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: c9MgpuoYVBYIOXMtJvv3tZH+IyATrAAVLaS4aETM/EZmCrttGpjypwhAmtlmSVisCiX685G5eHlV042Q9m6zuA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PR3PR07MB8068 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Tree diagram comment lines X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 10:52:18 -0000 Can a YANG tree diagram contain comment lines?=0A= =0A= draft-ietf-teas-yang-te has a tree diagram of 40 pages and since the IETF h= as abolished the page number, then any reference into it could be a challen= ge. For a YANG module, this can be ameliorated by inserting comment lines = every page or two.=0A= =0A= Can this be done with tree diagrams?=0A= =0A= Tom Petch= From nobody Mon Apr 11 04:02:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3313A1761 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 04:02:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=labn.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UgPJVfLlTjhU for ; 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boundary="_000_SJ0PR14MB479210DB3B19115C1A48A748C3EA9SJ0PR14MB4792namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: labn.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR14MB4792.namprd14.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ed81c65b-5974-467c-4fdd-08da1baac50a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Apr 2022 11:02:29.0056 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: eb60ac54-2184-4344-9b60-40c8b2b72561 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: sjFmCbDTTGNsnqBXDeZuC59vAGa21f5Bw9ngQ5ic6oLs9wXs7S9gJ7+X88HqIG9Z7OfRySqbb+yVqVU6GGpU1Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN8PR14MB2739 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Tree diagram comment lines X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:02:43 -0000 --_000_SJ0PR14MB479210DB3B19115C1A48A748C3EA9SJ0PR14MB4792namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes. See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8340#section-2.5 Lou ---------- On April 11, 2022 6:52:27 AM tom petch wrote: Can a YANG tree diagram contain comment lines? draft-ietf-teas-yang-te has a tree diagram of 40 pages and since the IETF h= as abolished the page number, then any reference into it could be a challen= ge. For a YANG module, this can be ameliorated by inserting comment lines = every page or two. Can this be done with tree diagrams? Tom Petch _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --_000_SJ0PR14MB479210DB3B19115C1A48A748C3EA9SJ0PR14MB4792namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes. See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8340#section-2.5

Lou

----= ------
On April 11, 2022 6:52:27 AM tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:

Can = a YANG tree diagram contain comment lines?

draf= t-ietf-teas-yang-te has a tree diagram of 40 pages and since the IETF has a= bolished the page number, then any reference into it could be a challenge.&= nbsp; For a YANG module, this can be ameliorated by inserting comment lines every page or two.

Can = this be done with tree diagrams?

Tom = Petch
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/netmod

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For a YANG module, this can be ameliorated by > inserting comment lines every page or two. > > Can this be done with tree diagrams? Yes, "//" introduces a (line) comment. See 2.5 of RFC 8340. But a 40 page tree diagram isn't very useful anyway, imo. If I want the full tree diagram I can run a tool to generate it. Tree diagrams are best used in combination with explanatory text to explain certain aspects of the module design. Perhaps section 3.4 in RFC 8407 should be updated to explain this. /martin > > Tom Petch > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Mon Apr 11 04:14:09 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359C53A17CD for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 04:14:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y7A5I3ci0ayi for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 04:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF5513A17C6 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 04:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4KcR502vC1z6865q; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 19:11:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.195.34.48] (10.195.34.48) by fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2375.24; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:13:55 +0200 Message-ID: <7f678386-b9d6-65e3-6b1e-3017b6330ef1@huawei.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:13:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-GB To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_Bj=c3=b6rklund?= , CC: References: <20220411.130246.1026658909508971766.id@4668.se> From: Benoit Claise In-Reply-To: <20220411.130246.1026658909508971766.id@4668.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [10.195.34.48] X-ClientProxiedBy: dggems704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.181) To fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.217) X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Tree diagram comment lines X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:14:07 -0000 Hi Tom, Martin beat me on this one. So the famous +1 to his "in combination with explanatory text to explain certain aspects of the module design "reply :-) We got rid a page number for a good reason (in the YANG world). Regards, Benoit On 4/11/2022 1:02 PM, Martin Björklund wrote: > tom petch wrote: >> Can a YANG tree diagram contain comment lines? >> >> draft-ietf-teas-yang-te has a tree diagram of 40 pages and since the >> IETF has abolished the page number, then any reference into it could >> be a challenge. For a YANG module, this can be ameliorated by >> inserting comment lines every page or two. >> >> Can this be done with tree diagrams? > Yes, "//" introduces a (line) comment. See 2.5 of RFC 8340. > > But a 40 page tree diagram isn't very useful anyway, imo. If I want > the full tree diagram I can run a tool to generate it. Tree diagrams > are best used in combination with explanatory text to explain certain > aspects of the module design. Perhaps section 3.4 in RFC 8407 should > be updated to explain this. > > > /martin > > > > >> Tom Petch >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > . From nobody Mon Apr 11 04:21:32 2022 Return-Path: <01000180185b65c5-e3f11060-8beb-4335-8dae-f0cbf5f3b599-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41EA3A17F1 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 04:21:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yjLNmARignrK for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 04:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-88.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-88.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2EEC3A17EE for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 04:21:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1649676084; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:From:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:Message-Id:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:Feedback-ID; bh=EiKzLxP0DGGpGK8ZM5e9NjCBanpjW2SZUEb75VHvWVw=; b=WqqM1ja8DivqwicWLZliwCr+mc8v3WMd2oHj7iIOY0QuhrtZxBIxYs+awCyFDqio +BRvHkT1/mUOhkStwGYSi/dtqKE7XKxYJ4qrQWpGTYlM9IGcQC+7FbcTVf59rhevAtM l8e0LM72ltX+m6C27en8hCe9He06W/ioD68ij5JE= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Kent Watsen Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:21:24 +0000 Message-ID: <01000180185b65c5-e3f11060-8beb-4335-8dae-f0cbf5f3b599-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <20220411.130246.1026658909508971766.id@4668.se> Cc: ietfc@btconnect.com, netmod@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20220411.130246.1026658909508971766.id@4668.se> To: =?utf-8?Q?Martin_Bj=C3=B6rklund?= X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18H107) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.04.11-54.240.8.88 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Tree diagram comment lines X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:21:31 -0000 > But a 40 page tree diagram isn't very useful anyway, imo. If I want > the full tree diagram I can run a tool to generate it. Tree diagrams > are best used in combination with explanatory text to explain certain > aspects of the module design. Perhaps section 3.4 in RFC 8407 should be u= pdated to explain this. Agreed. =20 The netconf-client-server and restconf-client-server drafts had =E2=80=9Cful= l=E2=80=9D diagrams that were many pages long. =20 Fixed by: 1) Introducing each grouping individually (I wrote a script to extract a par= ticular grouping tree diagram) 2) Convert all diagrams to NOT expand groupings. I.e., it prints just the g= rouping=E2=80=99s name.=20 3) The text for each grouping includes the hyperlink to the other sections w= here the each used-grouping is defined.=20 4) Remove from the document the mostly-useless super-long diagram.=20 K.=20= From nobody Mon Apr 11 04:50:24 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7BA53A1908 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 04:50:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.106 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id epeLoRbGNLUe for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 04:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66A6C3A1907 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 04:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar06.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.8]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by opfedar22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTPS id 4KcRxL6BJpz2y31; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:50:14 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1649677814; bh=meTm04VjjqP4ZQIJU8xtm/w3XKxQ/jXJGd3PgtWf86Y=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=gJyJkbR78Eb6T/9NaqsInREE9kmsDsimiqd4YNsXls/jARXP1qSZcFqjf1ST8352E tvzNoe3I1TPMwcOFFfVamUYXUOV39BMR44X8mdVG/EZAueT3o759b6/6Ti4KXmP6la bJSshDS8Ot3xmaLLQvwljzi52SPzURF71D6GvSxFrIh2XAwtZLfqoxfENZyJAaD2X+ fMIVtS+lJgtpshsCFB6xYNZyrM+PT4lGIi1PZ6JK6tRCl6106t2BEA2+nxY/ZVnHXm 3qnX9cUQaruDfji86l4WoI7tpgnlgFAqdh4cyF3dOOX4rt/cHLIWM0+SvAkqGS6m0V ut1J30BpggFmw== From: To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Martin_Bj=F6rklund?= , "ietfc@btconnect.com" CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Tree diagram comment lines Thread-Index: AQHYTZPHwSjfVob+K0ePaCTAJZWNDKzqmKAw Content-Class: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:50:14 +0000 Message-ID: <24762_1649677814_625415F6_24762_103_1_410ec101417e4bc892bdd6197ee519ac@orange.com> References: <20220411.130246.1026658909508971766.id@4668.se> In-Reply-To: <20220411.130246.1026658909508971766.id@4668.se> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_SetDate=2022-04-11T11:47:26Z; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_Method=Privileged; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_Name=unrestricted_parent.2; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_SiteId=90c7a20a-f34b-40bf-bc48-b9253b6f5d20; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_ActionId=eed59d24-b296-4125-821f-81115bee6106; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_ContentBits=0 x-originating-ip: [10.115.27.51] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Tree diagram comment lines X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:50:22 -0000 Hi all,=20 Agree with Martin. Here is the note I'm using in some RFCs with long trees:=20=20 The full tree diagram of the module can be generated using the "pyang" tool [PYANG]. That tree is not included here because it is too long (Section 3.3 of [RFC8340]). Instead, subtrees are provided for the reader's convenience. Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: netmod De la part de Martin > Bj=F6rklund > Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 11 avril 2022 13:03 > =C0=A0: ietfc@btconnect.com > Cc=A0: netmod@ietf.org > Objet=A0: Re: [netmod] Tree diagram comment lines >=20 > tom petch wrote: > > Can a YANG tree diagram contain comment lines? > > > > draft-ietf-teas-yang-te has a tree diagram of 40 pages and since > the > > IETF has abolished the page number, then any reference into it > could > > be a challenge. For a YANG module, this can be ameliorated by > > inserting comment lines every page or two. > > > > Can this be done with tree diagrams? >=20 > Yes, "//" introduces a (line) comment. See 2.5 of RFC 8340. >=20 > But a 40 page tree diagram isn't very useful anyway, imo. If I > want the full tree diagram I can run a tool to generate it. Tree > diagrams are best used in combination with explanatory text to > explain certain aspects of the module design. Perhaps section 3.4 > in RFC 8407 should be updated to explain this. >=20 >=20 > /martin >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > Tom Petch > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. 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=?utf-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= , Kent Watsen CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 Thread-Index: AdhNhJha0arwSZZrTNadvmCMven9PQ== Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:52:10 +0000 Message-ID: <9d2afd9f536d4db6b9fa54edb6d90d63@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.100.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:52:23 -0000 SGksIErDvHJnZW46DQpUaGFuayBmb3IgcXVpY2sgY29tbWVudHMuIFBsZWFzZSBzZWUgcmVwbHkg aW5saW5lIGJlbG93Lg0KLS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0KPuWPkeS7tuS6ujogbmV0bW9k 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: JoXhBTxxM1B3uYVbhZZGWE1AL9gpdNAs9lA2y/qhQrYFIk8dxUkcMMbugqdNXMk7jBQV/xEHGB88NTGBzuNHRuUM+3/hHOEefBPmS0DSYT0= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PRAP190MB1835 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 12:18:19 -0000 On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 11:52:10AM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > >I have not read the document in detail yet but I find the notion of data objects and subobjects confusing. I also do not know what "massive" data object collections are or why both objects and subobjects can be modeled as YANG data nodes, or what the > >purpose of this statement is. > > [Qin Wu] massive data collection might consume large amount of network bandwidth resource and computation resource. the data node tag help us capture characteristics data (e.g., KPI data) and greatly reduce the data to exported to the collectors. > Take example-module-A as an example: > module example-module-A { > //... > container top { > list X { > leaf foo { > } > leaf bar { > } > } > } > // ... > } > The top level node will be seen as data object while leaf foo and leaf bar will be seen as subobject, the top level node will be tagged with Object tag, the child node will be tagged with other tag such as metric tag or metric type tags. > Note that the notion of data objects and subobjects is only used in the usage example in section 3. Do you think it is confusing to introduce new terminologies, if yes, I will see how to fix this. I strongly disagree with introducing new terminology. The notion of a data object or a subobject does not exist in YANG. All the YANG model does is to associate tags with yang-node-identifiers. That's it and I think the document should restrict itself to explain that. My comment was actually more about words like "massive" being a purely subjective term. Marketing people may use them but in technical writing or even scientific writing, they have no real meaning. If you are worried about scalability (and I would), then the question to ask may be whether a single flat list is scalable to large numbers of tags, i.e., how many queries do I need to find all relevant tags and how do the queries scale. > >When I look at ietf-data-object-tags (likely also a misnomer), then what I see is a list associating tags to anything identifiable by a nacm:node-instance-identifier. It feels like this document has a lot of hot air around something that is at the end rather basic. > > [Qin Wu] Please note that RFC9196 also defines node-selector as node-instance-identifier. See the definition of node-instance-identifier in RFC8341 > " > typedef node-instance-identifier { > type yang:xpath1.0; > description > "Path expression used to represent a special > data node, action, or notification instance-identifier > string. > > A node-instance-identifier value is an > unrestricted YANG instance-identifier expression. > All the same rules as an instance-identifier apply, > except that ***predicates**** for keys are optional. > If a key > predicate is missing, then the node-instance-identifier > represents all possible server instances for that key. " > It can represent one specific node instance,e.g., > /* instance-identifier for a list entry */ > /ex:system/ex:user[ex:name='fred'] > or all possible node instance if the predicates is not specified, e.g., > /* instance-identifier for all list entry/ > /ex:system/ex:user > For the latter case, it can also be seen as at node level or schema node level if my understanding is correct. I can't tell right now whether RFC 9196 makes proper use of nacm:node-instance-identifier. Anyway, this is important material to explain, not the data objects massive kind of marketing text. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Apr 11 06:04:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 395603A0E82 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 06:04:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s-H0a_vjVna2 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 06:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur05on2060a.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:7d00::60a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4D9E3A0E7E for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 06:04:29 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Oyo8eBBd+EGeeBVigt2HmfYlYq8zEkDqLHYZ5N+UtigGSkWziwJMiQnp5tK5VPUFvzLPa/TaeEoXGmFXTq7blTAI7GiiHBQEDNT/7ui5FVmqfruKssXH8ih5SGuVAASh4Umx9SyLpoUGbJXorJ2zuWi3S/fneNI1xGCtZY3s+jDh7OybDcODcIMsKlRkD9pg5OAXNth4oNIO7pi581S/9nRMGRwQ5tASVk4eog7dpr8kPjeY4zdOqmXRWB37z27vjVG6E5/5s2eV4PTab/tq0MPVa3f5V5lpyLKiJPS+6THTe1tRhji7rvpW9SxSNQhN5Fllwi0ox3ouW1x6U9i+ew== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=jXqBn6apjHlujV0/cntfUMBxTbIGZofDJkdbxRYpppE=; b=CnSWFzWjZqKf54YHnqSD0jIqIc/4qZWlWjUYZcZM/ultxocghEjP8wTY99CLl6R755nXzYba41FbFqC1MwXjPWHBrmwRYyJOcOtqSIPjQMgybZi9ghTCL5v3g+5ew0r1NcXgKkk+VoTNw/pmDRw907u0dDMQIgyrJL30R/bPZBhmpNFvHaP5nS9OZotuqSfMa6/1ukS9NEvbcW5mL/nv5YwdAW7ePN+3pRHJ2el1AsjwhdoNteq7Q5YULN0EaMvLAEu0nHF+URlvN9v5LcBwWBfyrwZK9LHPqTa8TroW3zFTRDhQPIUFssJzKmxA8wb30FpIHc451sWCJIIxKyLwyA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ericsson.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ericsson.com; dkim=pass header.d=ericsson.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=jXqBn6apjHlujV0/cntfUMBxTbIGZofDJkdbxRYpppE=; b=PvhaHA+LDRiWDza6L4gS56gEYz0LmrNKxi+TmYXUPOK7vlgHcwLXgNCZye8jn8AXvCEXgA8/M/m++jrIgpcqpzt13JYkmK/i8Np1xyUmtj8xVHIuAfBUDd5wnXByeRpJLtjZLkZ4fBLtppw4yPW+GC1Lp/aa73vMYklCWn2hGtQ= Received: from VI1PR0701MB2351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:6b::18) by DB7PR07MB5788.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:8a::28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5164.17; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:04:24 +0000 Received: from VI1PR0701MB2351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4090:1564:a0f5:7e6]) by VI1PR0701MB2351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4090:1564:a0f5:7e6%3]) with mapi id 15.20.5164.017; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:04:24 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= To: "'netmod@ietf.org'" Thread-Topic: Difference between current() and "." 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boundary="_000_VI1PR0701MB2351B15933676897E96FFEC1F0EA9VI1PR0701MB2351_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR0701MB2351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 58f23ac6-01d6-4b86-18e9-08da1bbbcd78 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Apr 2022 13:04:24.3568 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: +hPQ7H611TxLW7twVkwFXvp1dtAU7+jx7Hsl9RFtGEfNiYjd0+JeCK0CYzw+ZKBodBjNAn/MSSt2iRRGJM3F16hGb4Aqp/cydcJQ+VTS1EY= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR07MB5788 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Difference between current() and "." X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:04:36 -0000 --_000_VI1PR0701MB2351B15933676897E96FFEC1F0EA9VI1PR0701MB2351_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Xpath experts, What is the difference between the meaning of Current() And "." Single dot In YANG-Xpath ? must ". <=3D 10" must "current() <=3D 10" Are these the same? Regards Balazs --_000_VI1PR0701MB2351B15933676897E96FFEC1F0EA9VI1PR0701MB2351_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Xpath experts,

What is the difference between the meaning of <= /o:p>

Current()

And “.” Single dot

In YANG-Xpath ?

 

must ". <=3D 10"

 

must "current() <=3D 10"

 

Are these the same?

Regards Balazs

--_000_VI1PR0701MB2351B15933676897E96FFEC1F0EA9VI1PR0701MB2351_-- From nobody Mon Apr 11 06:14:21 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FD613A1044 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 06:14:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TtLDhSYKU-AV for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 06:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 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From: Qin Wu To: =?utf-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= , Kent Watsen CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 Thread-Index: AdhNpT0jM13LHiN5R0OcCP0VtmD7zg== Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:14:08 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.100.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:14:20 -0000 SGksIEp1cmdlbjoNClRoYW5rIGZvciBicmluZ2luZyB0aGlzIGlzc3VlIHVwLg0KR2VuZXJhbGx5 LCBJIGZlZWwgdHdvIGRyYWZ0cyBhcmUgb3J0aG9nb25hbCB0byBlYWNoIG90aGVyLiANCkRyYWZ0 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: KqoTi3Z99naRKbm/KJNP7zZlNdofuqyIXvZrFDFuDfw41+taJqeS4MmFsXWnte9l35Q4zXENiuJx/5NWZDY/RzK2tBX44s6l+QmBIK4qXiM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DBAP190MB0807 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Difference between current() and "." X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:29:24 -0000 Google pointed me to https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/XPath/Functions/current and the Notes section on that page explains the difference. /js On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 01:04:24PM +0000, Balázs Lengyel wrote: > Hello Xpath experts, > What is the difference between the meaning of > Current() > And "." Single dot > In YANG-Xpath ? > > must ". <= 10" > > > must "current() <= 10" > > Are these the same? > Regards Balazs > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Apr 11 06:32:07 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 834283A11BA for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 06:32:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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We should IMHO focus on defining one mechanism to convey metadata and ideally that mechanism than supports multiple use cases. /js On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 01:14:08PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > Hi, Jurgen: > Thank for bringing this issue up. > Generally, I feel two drafts are orthogonal to each other. > Draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 focuses on YANG modelled data classification while draft-claise-netconf-metadata-for-collection-03 focuses on telemetry related server capability exposure, e.g., > how frequent you can use YANG push mechanism to send the telemetry data, from where to collect the specific interested data, how to inform the client or collector when the server compute a new observable period, in other words, draft-claise-netconf-metadata-for-collection-03 more focuses on data collection protocol (e.g., yang push) related metadata. > > In addition, draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 doesn't need to depend on notification capability defined in RFC9196 since ietf-data-object-tags in draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 defines data objects list under /tags:module-tags/tags:module. Therefore the client can look for these tags from the , also can be used since yang extension is defined for these tags in the ietf-data-object-tags. > > Please correct me if I am wrong. > > -Qin > -----邮件原件----- > 发件人: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] 代表 Jürgen Sch?nw?lder > 发送时间: 2022年4月11日 15:55 > 收件人: Kent Watsen > 抄送: netmod@ietf.org > 主题: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 > > During the NETCONF meeting at IETF 113, Benoit presented an I-D titled > > Per-Node Capabilities for Optimum Operational Data Collection > draft-claise-netconf-metadata-for-collection-03 > > and I asked why we need another metadata export mechanism given that node tags is been worked on in the NETMOD WG. The reaction during the meeting was to followup on the mailing list, i.e., there was no conclusive answer during the meeting. > > I suggest that this document does not proceed until we know that it provides all mechanisms needed to support the use case described in the above mentioned I-D. If any functionality is lacking, the WG may want to investigate whether this can be addressed generically. > > /js > > On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 06:09:45PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > This message begins a Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06, per the chair-action from the 113 session (minutes ). The WGLC will close in two-weeks (Apr 22). Here is a direct link to the HTML version of the draft: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags > > > > > > Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it is ready for publication", are welcome! This is useful and important, even from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also welcomed at this time. > > > > Please be aware that this draft has declared IPR indicating that license may entail possible royalty/fee. Also, this exchange between Lou and Qin on 8/30/2020 (mailman ): > > > > [Lou] Since this work is derived from work that I contributed to, I'd be interested in hearing what new mechanism(s) is/are covered by the IPR disclosure prior to supporting WG adoption. I'm not asking in order to debate this, as that is something for other venues, I'm merely asking that you state for the record what new mechanism is covered. > > > > [Qin] Thanks for asking, different from module level tag defined in draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags , this work provide data node level tag definition, use these data node level tag definition to provide hint or indication to selection filter in the YANG push and tell the collector or subscriber which specific category data objects needs to fetched. > > > > > > Kent (as co-chair) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > -- > Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Jürgen 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([7.192.104.229]) with mapi id 15.01.2375.024; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 21:43:09 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: =?utf-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= CC: Kent Watsen , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 Thread-Index: AdhNpkTXc5yh7BObS9GuQOymBzqS3g== Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:43:09 +0000 Message-ID: <88d5ea02be8a47cdb4a410151ba78b96@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.100.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:43:21 -0000 SGksIEp1cmdlbjoNCi0tLS0t6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2LS0tLS0NCuWPkeS7tuS6ujogSsO8cmdlbiBT 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6ERw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533BWcWYQxeQoNZFKPOHMQditSwGa1qmS0ZmdoFXzGcZRO1FLiXn c6y8+sQd3+yYxazgOrJbG+HpE4VFULNKeW0lEwdFFjiNa20GKg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzu9J7+27bzN5St31r4zArFrlOhDIJ1RJUUJnCeJiA+NacskF++cCH17AlK7YfJrwN25OJM5D5rFOWTCiRUvWg= X-Received: by 2002:a25:8f82:0:b0:641:759:e3f6 with SMTP id u2-20020a258f82000000b006410759e3f6mr10328573ybl.262.1649690319426; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 08:18:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 08:18:28 -0700 Message-ID: To: NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007aab8005dc62757b" Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] new extensions in draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 15:18:46 -0000 --0000000000007aab8005dc62757b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I do not find this draft useful. I am curious about the extensions introduced. It looks like all containers and lists are tagged as 'object'. All config=true terminals are tagged as 'property' and perhaps all config=false terminals are tagged as 'metric' (although the example shows a config=true leaf 'bar' tagged as a metric) This seems like a lot of clutter without any real value. RFC 8819 is about functional classification (e.g. 'qos' or 'oam'). It seems this draft should just extend the granularity of the tags to schema nodes. >From sec 8.1: module example-module-A { //... import ietf-data-node-tags { prefix ntags; } container top { ntags:opm-tag "ietf:object"; list X { leaf foo { ntags:opm-tag "ietf:property"; } leaf bar { ntags:opm-tag "ietf:metric"; } } } // ... } Andy --0000000000007aab8005dc62757b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I do not find this draft useful= .
I am curious about the extensions introduced.

It looks like all containers and lists are tagged as 'object= 9;.
All config=3Dtrue terminals are tagged as 'property'<= /div>
and perhaps all config=3Dfalse terminals are tagged as 'metri= c'
(although the example shows a config=3Dtrue leaf 'bar&= #39; tagged as a metric)
This seems like a lot of clutter without= any real value.

RFC 8819 is about functional clas= sification=C2=A0(e.g. 'qos' or 'oam').
It seems t= his draft should just extend the granularity of the tags
to schem= a nodes.

From sec 8.1:

module example-module-= A { //... import ietf-data-node-tags { prefix ntags; } container top { ntags:opm-tag "ietf:object"; list X { leaf foo { ntags:opm-tag "ietf:property"; } leaf bar { ntags:opm-tag "ietf:metric"; } } } // ... }


Andy

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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 750b1611-bf0f-4af4-8776-08da1bd23417 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Apr 2022 15:44:45.6604 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: P59ANs4sVteclhuxMqykm9c8pwfewI0ncf5ZRIEpLSOnMy7h6Y4oAdkakPvK5aTBf9saSFartWU7kPNcvPMT+A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PA4PR07MB7214 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Tree diagram comment lines X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 15:44:56 -0000 From: Kent Watsen =0A= Sent: 11 April 2022 12:21=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Thank to you all for the responses.=0A= =0A= I do like the full 40 page tree, as an appendix. If I want to look for the= use of e.g. ip-address then the full tree is much easier to riff through t= han lots of little pieces. The I-D I mention has pieces as well, alongside= text which I think right. I prefer tree snippet then text as opposed to t= ext then snippet. The text is more detailed and I want to go from less det= ail to more detail. And there have been cases of hand-crafted snippets bei= ng out-of-line with the YANG module which is easier to spot with a tool-gen= erated full diagram which I see as more reliable. (This last got through L= ast Call and the IESG - I wonder if the RFC Editor would have noticed).=0A= =0A= Thinking more, I mostly use the tree as a way into the module especially wh= en the module use many groupings. I often start reading a module and get lo= st and go back to the overall tree to see the overall structure with 'uses'= expanded. What would be really useful would be a comment line in the modul= e (only 38 pages in this instance) which pyang would recognise and turn int= o a comment line in the tree so that the two could more easily be correlate= d, YANG to tree or vice versa.=0A= =0A= If have to run my own tools, on a Windows system, then I will look for som= ething more user friendly!=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= > But a 40 page tree diagram isn't very useful anyway, imo. If I want=0A= > the full tree diagram I can run a tool to generate it. Tree diagrams=0A= > are best used in combination with explanatory text to explain certain=0A= > aspects of the module design. Perhaps section 3.4 in RFC 8407 should be = updated to explain this.=0A= =0A= Agreed.=0A= =0A= The netconf-client-server and restconf-client-server drafts had =93full=94 = diagrams that were many pages long.=0A= =0A= Fixed by:=0A= =0A= 1) Introducing each grouping individually (I wrote a script to extract a pa= rticular grouping tree diagram)=0A= =0A= 2) Convert all diagrams to NOT expand groupings. I.e., it prints just the = grouping=92s name.=0A= =0A= 3) The text for each grouping includes the hyperlink to the other sections = where the each used-grouping is defined.=0A= =0A= 4) Remove from the document the mostly-useless super-long diagram.=0A= =0A= K.=0A= From nobody Mon Apr 11 09:38:01 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7703A1210 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 09:37:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 17:07:09 -0000 Hi all, Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if we are = able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the v4/v= 6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has been giv= en to the unusual variant of including zone information. Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me that most = of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and the int= ention was that IP addresses without zones was intended. At a rough count,= of the published RFC YANG models at github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ t= o be: 86 uses of ip-address 68 uses of ipv4-address 66 uses of ipv6-address 1 use of ip-address-no-zone 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in RFCs. At= a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may appear in 40-5= 0 RFCs. As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the OpenConfig = YANG modules: They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone informa= tion and have defined separate types include zone information. There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP addres= ses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, approximately a t= hird of the IP address types are still to the ietf-inet-types.yang rather t= han openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory some of those 58 entries could= still intentionally be supporting zoned IP addresses, but I would expect t= hat the vast majority would not. I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the same w= ay in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have got the d= efinition right. I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address definition is e= ffectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to implemen= t it. I don't find that argument compelling, at least not with the current= definition of ip-address in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference between a = type defined with an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values an= d a type that is explicitly defined to included additional values in the al= lowable value space. Further, I believe that a client just looking at the = YANG module could reasonably expect a server that implements a data node us= ing ip-address would be expected to support IP zones, where they are meanin= gful, or otherwise they should deviate that data node to indicate that they= don't conform to the model. We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. They are = not going to start writing code to support zones just because they are in t= he model. They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone information. Per= haps some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, but probably most wo= n't. The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel at all= appealing. This would take a significant amount of time/effort and I thin= k that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do this. Although= errata could be used to point out the bug, then can't be used to fix it, a= ll the errata would be "hold for document update" at best. Further, during= the time that it would take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorr= ect usages of ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed vi= a scripted checks/warnings). I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state where t= he "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to mean, i.e., excl= uding zone information. Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change to th= e new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a possible p= ath that gains wider consensus: (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and keep= the -no-zone versions. (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: - Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations are u= nlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the descript= ion of the type more accurately reflects reality). - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where zoned IP= addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address with the int= ention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to ip-address-with-zon= e. - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), the exp= ectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to match that of = ip-address-no-zone. (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the definit= ion of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the "-no-zone" = version at the same time. My reasoning as to why to take this path is: (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to migr= ate. (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it alig= ns to the OC definition). (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an NBC ch= ange, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change (import r= evision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable consen= sus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with it. Regards, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: netmod On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 > To: Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-ls= a- > yang-10.txt >=20 > Hi - >=20 > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > .. > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's point). So= , > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the AD in > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. >=20 > That's not the impression one gets from modules like > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is willing > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. >=20 > Randy >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Mon Apr 11 10:28:33 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710ED3A0029 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 10:28:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5sj69Rl4fLBF for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 10:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x1134.google.com (mail-yw1-x1134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D243D3A110B for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 10:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1134.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2ebdf6ebd29so102997797b3.2 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 10:28:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GhfkPg02BeFfzg/FnOVeu8UeJrqSMlf4v53mzAxiDmc=; b=lpOX5WMeOt/oVRpO5Pa/855WbQXgYKPsAUbGZgQrWgRkxsXt3Sx5UyBRo3fnh/HTws qWaeZRNZa4CjjmUo6Ea1xnljax2hqGlvTr/fUGhnc2+J+AOHojK4Zjp4W5bJVzjStSYc spoPPrtOhXA5v2Vho7tys9701rLoKj2m0EvSftclZqfBwTW3ItV+BBqbfMnOj1BEUnbs TETJm1Wk4E7LRAnRUKU1Z8pf22aQNtmH/1W0KLG6BB/7ooRsgBWPGjvY7cjhZQ6LpdVJ jdSC/BrWdPTYp0969QvfM6YXR/vMNb2LRNH28y9Kax6uF/LyXl4oWdWgN5s+rwDtV1yv t4cg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GhfkPg02BeFfzg/FnOVeu8UeJrqSMlf4v53mzAxiDmc=; b=RoWGn+LVpNBn76hOnWivhmNdv1ruQd46/+esD/boSL9n2sW0KA6Zg+7iSVO08cQ66j cZcWIYltdGsNdDtB+SCUEfYrV3HoQz+9WfL5Dssa3Wp72BIKqBlZPcsQRdW5xkUEHQm8 fLFehyotE7uHpz1aTpxQWBwmpigv9Okl+p6emVEUwkQna+sg5fNAS4hCtC9auSffxS26 kXYTwYfUYc9HS2Ra3veeeOF+T0LMznYhJfmRaqVu0ls4hdo3gX39YeLnmuYDOh/fuKZi LXokdsIpShKsKsdKsFUl+CY2R64erNrkWtk+xc5kNyN2glLsSj3qUmB003BbEetoSjDs 4uRA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532/SsCcJPXAV7TJbE7itk8nXYqu1/d+uNA2kzK5M4mpsIbQZ9kY QIKB+ImW+3Mio5JSlJ2wvYzF+B+7b3tnTZTez8rjfGXwcFM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyU+PFBXlBR2rJZsnYtVg4n3QYAPQ5IyCxwPXCX4cMHj5NgEloz5koSAE7VE6hZRiJcjwZOi5FI/6n8HmTfVDY= X-Received: by 2002:a81:5dd6:0:b0:2d6:3041:12e0 with SMTP id r205-20020a815dd6000000b002d6304112e0mr27292910ywb.331.1649698105608; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 10:28:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 10:28:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000925ee505dc644525" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 17:28:32 -0000 --000000000000925ee505dc644525 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 10:07 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > Hi all, > > Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if we are > able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. > > I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the > v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has been > given to the unusual variant of including zone information. > > Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me that most > of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and the > intention was that IP addresses without zones was intended. At a rough > count, of the published RFC YANG models at github > YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: > 86 uses of ip-address > 68 uses of ipv4-address > 66 uses of ipv6-address > > 1 use of ip-address-no-zone > 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone > 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone > > These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in RFCs. > At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may appear in > 40-50 RFCs. > > As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the OpenConfig > YANG modules: > They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone > information and have defined separate types include zone information. > There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP > addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, > approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the > ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory > some of those 58 entries could still intentionally be supporting zoned IP > addresses, but I would expect that the vast majority would not. > I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the same > way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have got the > definition right. > > I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address definition is > effectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to > implement it. I don't find that argument compelling, at least not with the > current definition of ip-address in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference > between a type defined with an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid > values and a type that is explicitly defined to included additional values > in the allowable value space. Further, I believe that a client just > looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that implements > a data node using ip-address would be expected to support IP zones, where > they are meaningful, or otherwise they should deviate that data node to > indicate that they don't conform to the model. > > We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. They are > not going to start writing code to support zones just because they are in > the model. They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone information. > Perhaps some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, but probably most > won't. > > The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel at > all appealing. This would take a significant amount of time/effort and I > think that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do this. > Although errata could be used to point out the bug, then can't be used to > fix it, all the errata would be "hold for document update" at best. > Further, during the time that it would take us to fix it, it is plausible > that more incorrect usages of ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps > could be policed via scripted checks/warnings). > > > I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state where > the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to mean, i.e., > excluding zone information. > > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change to > the new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a possible > path that gains wider consensus: > > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and > keep the -no-zone versions. > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > - Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations are > unlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the > description of the type more accurately reflects reality). > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where zoned > IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address with the > intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to > ip-address-with-zone. > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), the > expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to match that > of ip-address-no-zone. > > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the > definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the > "-no-zone" version at the same time. > > My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to > migrate. > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it > aligns to the OC definition). > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an NBC > change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change (import > revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). > > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable > consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with it. > > This is a very thoughtful proposal. Looks good to me. It does introduce a window in which some new modules might start using 'ip-address-no-zone'. Should they wait for the real 'ip-address' in 2 more years or just use 'ip-address-no-zone'? The leaf description-stmt using 'ip-address' should specify if any zone support is required. The default could be 'none' so no mention is needed most of the time. > Regards, > Rob > > > Andy > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: netmod On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 > > To: Christian Hopps > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa- > > yang-10.txt > > > > Hi - > > > > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > .. > > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that > > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused > > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in > > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's point). > So, > > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the AD in > > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. > > > > That's not the impression one gets from modules like > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt > > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is willing > > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of > > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - > > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the > > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so > > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually > > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. > > > > Randy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000925ee505dc644525 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 10:07 AM Rob = Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks for the comments on this thread so far.=C2=A0 It would be nice if we= are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution.

I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the v4/v= 6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has been giv= en to the unusual variant of including zone information.

Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me that most = of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and the int= ention was that IP addresses without zones was intended.=C2=A0 At a rough c= ount, of the published RFC YANG models at github YangModels/standard/ietf/R= FC/ to be:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 86 uses of ip-address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 68 uses of ipv4-address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 66 uses of ipv6-address

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 use of ip-address-no-zone
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone

These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in RFCs.=C2= =A0 At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may appear i= n 40-50 RFCs.

As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the OpenConfig = YANG modules:
They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone informa= tion and have defined separate types include zone information.
There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig= IP addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository.=C2=A0 However, ap= proximately a third of the IP address types are still to the ietf-inet-type= s.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory some of those 5= 8 entries could still intentionally be supporting zoned IP addresses, but I= would expect that the vast majority would not.
I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the same w= ay in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have got the d= efinition right.

I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address definition is e= ffectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to implemen= t it.=C2=A0 I don't find that argument compelling, at least not with th= e current definition of ip-address in RFC 6991.=C2=A0 I see a clear differe= nce between a type defined with an incomplete regex that may allow some inv= alid values and a type that is explicitly defined to included additional va= lues in the allowable value space.=C2=A0 Further, I believe that a client j= ust looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that implem= ents a data node using ip-address would be expected to support IP zones, wh= ere they are meaningful, or otherwise they should deviate that data node to= indicate that they don't conform to the model.

We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do.=C2=A0 They= are not going to start writing code to support zones just because they are= in the model.=C2=A0 They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone informa= tion.=C2=A0 Perhaps some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, but p= robably most won't.

The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel at= all appealing.=C2=A0 This would take a significant amount of time/effort a= nd I think that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do this.= =C2=A0 Although errata could be used to point out the bug, then can't b= e used to fix it, all the errata would be "hold for document update&qu= ot; at best.=C2=A0 Further, during the time that it would take us to fix it= , it is plausible that more incorrect usages of ip-address will likely occu= r (but perhaps could be policed via scripted checks/warnings).


I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state where t= he "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to mean, = i.e., excluding zone information.

Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change to th= e new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a possible p= ath that gains wider consensus:

(1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we:
(i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and keep= the -no-zone versions.
(ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate:
- Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations are u= nlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the descript= ion of the type more accurately reflects reality).
- A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where zoned IP= addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address with the int= ention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to ip-address-with-zon= e.
- In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), the exp= ectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to match that of = ip-address-no-zone.

(2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the definit= ion of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the "-no-z= one" version at the same time.

My reasoning as to why to take this path is:
(1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to migr= ate.
(2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it alig= ns to the OC definition).
(3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs.
(4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an NBC ch= ange, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change (import r= evision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison).

I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable consen= sus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with it.



This is a very thoughtf= ul proposal. Looks good to me.

It does introduce a= window in which some new modules might start using 'ip-address-no-zone= '.
Should they wait for the real 'ip-address' in 2 mo= re years or just use 'ip-address-no-zone'?

The leaf description-stmt using 'ip-address' should specify if any= zone support is required.
The default could be 'none' so= no mention is needed most of the time.


=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0
Regards,
Rob



Andy
=C2=A0

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59
> To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
> Cc: lsr@ietf.org= ; netmod@ietf.org<= br> > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended= -lsa-
> yang-10.txt
>
> Hi -
>
> On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote:
> ..
> > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asser= ting that
> > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misuse= d
> > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in<= br> > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy= 9;s point). So,
> > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the= AD in
> > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well.
>
> That's not the impression one gets from modules like
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id= /draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt
> which employs both types.=C2=A0 So, regardless of whether one is willi= ng
> to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter= of
> speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage -
> it clearly would.=C2=A0 Furthermore, my recollection is that the
> WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, = so
> any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually
> wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise.=
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
_______________________________________________
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--000000000000925ee505dc644525-- From nobody Mon Apr 11 10:44:31 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F345A3A11B7; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 10:44:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N7WdLaHV4deV; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 10:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FAFB3A117D; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 10:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4KcbnW09gQz1nw4W; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 10:43:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1649699039; bh=P6qw9l6+7HtngKf1NV8PE72DHPffHwYoGGGOJnso/bA=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=JO5C4aqmpO4jMZSztPU54vR1utncC92iyuessg0EcDRPXRfVs9nCWAIukLUEoT9Ge /yEdPMvCutubWpf1Xy/FFZC5gqO/mZPSqXUpL4/Cb1BhmWydpQpGgAbS4d1d9zU0cN UMgSAWN/aF+a9BeX3BSRx9HyrjE+mzFbAiGaR6Ow= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.21.218] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KcbnT3D1Tz1nsNP; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 10:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:43:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Andy Bierman , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 17:44:04 -0000 Do we have reason to believe that no one outside the IETF has used ip-address as we published in ways that need a zone? It seems to me that the first step in the plan below is reasonable. But changing ip-address itself seems a bad idea. If one means no-zone, use the -no-zone typedef. Yours, Joel On 4/11/2022 1:28 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 10:07 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > > wrote: > > Hi all, > > Thanks for the comments on this thread so far.  It would be nice if > we are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. > > I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and > the v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type > name has been given to the unusual variant of including zone > information. > > Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me > that most of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be > wrong, and the intention was that IP addresses without zones was > intended.  At a rough count, of the published RFC YANG models at > github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: >         86 uses of ip-address >         68 uses of ipv4-address >         66 uses of ipv6-address > >         1 use of ip-address-no-zone >         4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone >         4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone > > These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in > RFCs.  At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules > may appear in 40-50 RFCs. > > As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the > OpenConfig YANG modules: > They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone > information and have defined separate types include zone information. > There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP > addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository.  However, > approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the > ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in > theory some of those 58 entries could still intentionally be > supporting zoned IP addresses, but I would expect that the vast > majority would not. > I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the > same way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks > have got the definition right. > > I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address > definition is effectively optional, and implementations are not > really obliged to implement it.  I don't find that argument > compelling, at least not with the current definition of ip-address > in RFC 6991.  I see a clear difference between a type defined with > an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values and a type > that is explicitly defined to included additional values in the > allowable value space.  Further, I believe that a client just > looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that > implements a data node using ip-address would be expected to support > IP zones, where they are meaningful, or otherwise they should > deviate that data node to indicate that they don't conform to the model. > > We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. > They are not going to start writing code to support zones just > because they are in the model.  They will mostly reject IP addresses > with zone information.  Perhaps some will deviate the type to > ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't. > > The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel > at all appealing.  This would take a significant amount of > time/effort and I think that we will struggle to find folks who are > willing to do this.  Although errata could be used to point out the > bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the errata would be "hold for > document update" at best.  Further, during the time that it would > take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrect usages of > ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed via > scripted checks/warnings). > > > I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state > where the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to > mean, i.e., excluding zone information. > > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible > change to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following > might be a possible path that gains wider consensus: > > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) > and keep the -no-zone versions. > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > - Although the type allows for zone information, many > implementations are unlikely to accept zone information in most > scenarios (i.e., so the description of the type more accurately > reflects reality). > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where > zoned IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use > ip-address with the intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST > migrate to ip-address-with-zone. > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), > the expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to > match that of ip-address-no-zone. > > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the > definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate > the "-no-zone" version at the same time. > > My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time > to migrate. > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that > it aligns to the OC definition). > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an > NBC change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this > change (import revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). > > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable > consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live > with it. > > > > This is a very thoughtful proposal. Looks good to me. > > It does introduce a window in which some new modules might start using > 'ip-address-no-zone'. > Should they wait for the real 'ip-address' in 2 more years or just use > 'ip-address-no-zone'? > > The leaf description-stmt using 'ip-address' should specify if any zone > support is required. > The default could be 'none' so no mention is needed most of the time. > > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > Andy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: netmod > On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 > > To: Christian Hopps > > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; netmod@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa- > > yang-10.txt > > > > Hi - > > > > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > .. > > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that > > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused > > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in > > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's > point). So, > > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that > the AD in > > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. > > > > That's not the impression one gets from modules like > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt > > > which employs both types.  So, regardless of whether one is willing > > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of > > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - > > it clearly would.  Furthermore, my recollection is that the > > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so > > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually > > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. > > > > Randy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Mon Apr 11 11:09:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687143A17CF for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:09:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id krVxO9nqwj2n for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-f171.google.com (mail-pg1-f171.google.com [209.85.215.171]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E20893A17C6 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-f171.google.com with SMTP id h5so13942288pgc.7 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:09:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=HRhciX5Ag205+gLQxKiQm7i2SN69YTPMeUeBKhUhOJA=; b=hXIjy8Vu3UDxUGTqpjSw/Bu6JfpbIngVqMkd6QUGI8yy+3nZB4fRQ1+xgZ4YP/qzKF a4YCg2LHTNYAFOR5L0Gtr3Lm4ejLMYZvu4PYDPB2URhwRAh8I/w/V5NaJcqumaExN7yb 5+GJfjhPYZEKM+qqlUxhFb5/me+4JhGv8J+ZF/xdF2/ShouU2n4iuBXmzhZW3m7KKUUP kt3EO03qnBhN0dw6+Dbcuu8nUfvBoxUbNZTBRTE1vy0rObkHe8MHAsMKZ1dgGp3hp6XC 8sZ88fIT5xtRRZrevMlG8pf8dKcTW8WVz4yXpF9wY09ZkmxHXOseoY29LXIYOqiwr7TK jmSA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530+PspAv7QbhWNll1Rokm2kRhfTM2LWiJfO4HDGTfD750MLlAIn JiPemn3IGZn7x8LW0pr9wpSqgFcFLKA6Rw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyoB8Pg33fQq7dUk8xctqzb8HkexmDEJKNS7qozUP1N3HDz5sdKJnHwwax21JbqjFdcZW8wBQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:7701:0:b0:382:7f20:5f83 with SMTP id s1-20020a637701000000b003827f205f83mr27077717pgc.163.1649700580169; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPV6:2601:646:9300:607:9126:b60e:60e6:ec79? ([2601:646:9300:607:9126:b60e:60e6:ec79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r10-20020a17090a454a00b001c96a912aa0sm168777pjm.3.2022.04.11.11.09.39 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <259994f4-990d-18cb-bc2f-c2c26c43fb6b@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:09:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: netmod@ietf.org References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Randy Presuhn In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 18:09:46 -0000 Hi - On 2022-04-11 10:43 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Do we have reason to believe that no one outside the IETF has used > ip-address as we published in ways that need a zone? It seems like wishful thinking. There's really no way to verify that no one anywhere has used the specification as it was intended. > It seems to me that the first step in the plan below is reasonable.  But Agreed. > changing ip-address itself seems a bad idea.  If one means no-zone, use > the -no-zone typedef. I'd go further. There are at least two bad ideas in the second step: (1) the incompatible change to ip-address (2) the deprecation of ip-address-no-zone, which would trigger maintenance headaches for everyone who used that type correctly in the first place. Hoping that Yang versioning would be able to paper over the resulting mess strikes me as overly optimistic. Randy > Yours, > Joel > > On 4/11/2022 1:28 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 10:07 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) >> > > wrote: >> >>     Hi all, >> >>     Thanks for the comments on this thread so far.  It would be nice if >>     we are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. >> >>     I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and >>     the v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type >>     name has been given to the unusual variant of including zone >>     information. >> >>     Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me >>     that most of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be >>     wrong, and the intention was that IP addresses without zones was >>     intended.  At a rough count, of the published RFC YANG models at >>     github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: >>              86 uses of ip-address >>              68 uses of ipv4-address >>              66 uses of ipv6-address >> >>              1 use of ip-address-no-zone >>              4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone >>              4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone >> >>     These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in >>     RFCs.  At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules >>     may appear in 40-50 RFCs. >> >>     As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the >>     OpenConfig YANG modules: >>     They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone >>     information and have defined separate types include zone information. >>     There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP >>     addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository.  However, >>     approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the >>     ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in >>     theory some of those 58 entries could still intentionally be >>     supporting zoned IP addresses, but I would expect that the vast >>     majority would not. >>     I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the >>     same way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks >>     have got the definition right. >> >>     I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address >>     definition is effectively optional, and implementations are not >>     really obliged to implement it.  I don't find that argument >>     compelling, at least not with the current definition of ip-address >>     in RFC 6991.  I see a clear difference between a type defined with >>     an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values and a type >>     that is explicitly defined to included additional values in the >>     allowable value space.  Further, I believe that a client just >>     looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that >>     implements a data node using ip-address would be expected to support >>     IP zones, where they are meaningful, or otherwise they should >>     deviate that data node to indicate that they don't conform to the >> model. >> >>     We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. >>     They are not going to start writing code to support zones just >>     because they are in the model.  They will mostly reject IP addresses >>     with zone information.  Perhaps some will deviate the type to >>     ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't. >> >>     The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel >>     at all appealing.  This would take a significant amount of >>     time/effort and I think that we will struggle to find folks who are >>     willing to do this.  Although errata could be used to point out the >>     bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the errata would be "hold for >>     document update" at best.  Further, during the time that it would >>     take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrect usages of >>     ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed via >>     scripted checks/warnings). >> >> >>     I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state >>     where the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to >>     mean, i.e., excluding zone information. >> >>     Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible >>     change to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following >>     might be a possible path that gains wider consensus: >> >>     (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: >>     (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) >>     and keep the -no-zone versions. >>     (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: >>     - Although the type allows for zone information, many >>     implementations are unlikely to accept zone information in most >>     scenarios (i.e., so the description of the type more accurately >>     reflects reality). >>     - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where >>     zoned IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use >>     ip-address with the intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST >>     migrate to ip-address-with-zone. >>     - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), >>     the expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to >>     match that of ip-address-no-zone. >> >>     (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the >>     definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate >>     the "-no-zone" version at the same time. >> >>     My reasoning as to why to take this path is: >>     (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time >>     to migrate. >>     (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that >>     it aligns to the OC definition). >>     (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. >>     (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an >>     NBC change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this >>     change (import revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema >> comparison). >> >>     I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable >>     consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live >>     with it. >> >> >> >> This is a very thoughtful proposal. Looks good to me. >> >> It does introduce a window in which some new modules might start using >> 'ip-address-no-zone'. >> Should they wait for the real 'ip-address' in 2 more years or just use >> 'ip-address-no-zone'? >> >> The leaf description-stmt using 'ip-address' should specify if any >> zone support is required. >> The default could be 'none' so no mention is needed most of the time. >> >> >> >> >>     Regards, >>     Rob >> >> >> >> Andy >> >> >>      > -----Original Message----- >>      > From: netmod >     > On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn >>      > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 >>      > To: Christian Hopps > >>      > Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; netmod@ietf.org >>     >>      > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: >>     draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa- >>      > yang-10.txt >>      > >>      > Hi - >>      > >>      > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: >>      > .. >>      > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting >> that >>      > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been >> misused >>      > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in >>      > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's >>     point). So, >>      > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that >>     the AD in >>      > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. >>      > >>      > That's not the impression one gets from modules like >>      > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt >>     >>      > which employs both types.  So, regardless of whether one is >> willing >>      > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of >>      > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - >>      > it clearly would.  Furthermore, my recollection is that the >>      > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so >>      > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually >>      > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. >>      > >>      > Randy >>      > >>      > _______________________________________________ >>      > netmod mailing list >>      > netmod@ietf.org >>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >>     >> >>     _______________________________________________ >>     netmod mailing list >>     netmod@ietf.org >>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >>     >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Mon Apr 11 11:43:43 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007E93A005D for ; 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Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:43:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> <259994f4-990d-18cb-bc2f-c2c26c43fb6b@alumni.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <259994f4-990d-18cb-bc2f-c2c26c43fb6b@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:43:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: Randy Presuhn Cc: NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000d7aee05dc6552b0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 18:43:39 -0000 --0000000000000d7aee05dc6552b0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 11:09 AM Randy Presuhn < randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote: > Hi - > > On 2022-04-11 10:43 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > Do we have reason to believe that no one outside the IETF has used > > ip-address as we published in ways that need a zone? > > It seems like wishful thinking. There's really no way to verify that > no one anywhere has used the specification as it was intended. > > > It seems to me that the first step in the plan below is reasonable. But > > Agreed. > > > changing ip-address itself seems a bad idea. If one means no-zone, use > > the -no-zone typedef. > > I'd go further. There are at least two bad ideas in the second step: > (1) the incompatible change to ip-address > IMO this change aligns with the operational expectations and actual usage. To Acee's point, nobody has said (on this list) that they used ip-address and wanted zones, or supported it. There isn't any YANG statement (yet) that could warn the user that a typedef is going to have an NBC-change in 2 years, and then another (in 2 years) stating the NBC change occurred. Real code (and YANG is just more source code) needs incompatible changes once in a while. Some languages have deprecation warnings. YANG needs that, and hopefully the versioning work will address it. (2) the deprecation of ip-address-no-zone, which would trigger > maintenance headaches for everyone who used that type > correctly in the first place. > agreed that this does not need to be deprecated > > Hoping that Yang versioning would be able to paper over the > resulting mess strikes me as overly optimistic. > > The NBC issues are real (as this thread clearly demonstrates). There are corner-cases where an incompatible change is the least worst solution. > Randy > > Andy > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 4/11/2022 1:28 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 10:07 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > >> >> > wrote: > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if > >> we are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. > >> > >> I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and > >> the v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type > >> name has been given to the unusual variant of including zone > >> information. > >> > >> Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me > >> that most of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be > >> wrong, and the intention was that IP addresses without zones was > >> intended. At a rough count, of the published RFC YANG models at > >> github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: > >> 86 uses of ip-address > >> 68 uses of ipv4-address > >> 66 uses of ipv6-address > >> > >> 1 use of ip-address-no-zone > >> 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone > >> 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone > >> > >> These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in > >> RFCs. At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules > >> may appear in 40-50 RFCs. > >> > >> As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the > >> OpenConfig YANG modules: > >> They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone > >> information and have defined separate types include zone > information. > >> There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP > >> addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, > >> approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the > >> ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in > >> theory some of those 58 entries could still intentionally be > >> supporting zoned IP addresses, but I would expect that the vast > >> majority would not. > >> I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the > >> same way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks > >> have got the definition right. > >> > >> I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address > >> definition is effectively optional, and implementations are not > >> really obliged to implement it. I don't find that argument > >> compelling, at least not with the current definition of ip-address > >> in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference between a type defined with > >> an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values and a type > >> that is explicitly defined to included additional values in the > >> allowable value space. Further, I believe that a client just > >> looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that > >> implements a data node using ip-address would be expected to support > >> IP zones, where they are meaningful, or otherwise they should > >> deviate that data node to indicate that they don't conform to the > >> model. > >> > >> We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. > >> They are not going to start writing code to support zones just > >> because they are in the model. They will mostly reject IP addresses > >> with zone information. Perhaps some will deviate the type to > >> ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't. > >> > >> The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel > >> at all appealing. This would take a significant amount of > >> time/effort and I think that we will struggle to find folks who are > >> willing to do this. Although errata could be used to point out the > >> bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the errata would be "hold for > >> document update" at best. Further, during the time that it would > >> take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrect usages of > >> ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed via > >> scripted checks/warnings). > >> > >> > >> I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state > >> where the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to > >> mean, i.e., excluding zone information. > >> > >> Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible > >> change to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following > >> might be a possible path that gains wider consensus: > >> > >> (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > >> (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) > >> and keep the -no-zone versions. > >> (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > >> - Although the type allows for zone information, many > >> implementations are unlikely to accept zone information in most > >> scenarios (i.e., so the description of the type more accurately > >> reflects reality). > >> - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where > >> zoned IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use > >> ip-address with the intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST > >> migrate to ip-address-with-zone. > >> - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), > >> the expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to > >> match that of ip-address-no-zone. > >> > >> (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the > >> definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate > >> the "-no-zone" version at the same time. > >> > >> My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > >> (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time > >> to migrate. > >> (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that > >> it aligns to the OC definition). > >> (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > >> (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an > >> NBC change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this > >> change (import revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema > >> comparison). > >> > >> I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable > >> consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live > >> with it. > >> > >> > >> > >> This is a very thoughtful proposal. Looks good to me. > >> > >> It does introduce a window in which some new modules might start using > >> 'ip-address-no-zone'. > >> Should they wait for the real 'ip-address' in 2 more years or just use > >> 'ip-address-no-zone'? > >> > >> The leaf description-stmt using 'ip-address' should specify if any > >> zone support is required. > >> The default could be 'none' so no mention is needed most of the time. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Rob > >> > >> > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: netmod >> > On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > >> > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 > >> > To: Christian Hopps >> > >> > Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; netmod@ietf.org > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > >> draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa- > >> > yang-10.txt > >> > > >> > Hi - > >> > > >> > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > >> > .. > >> > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting > >> that > >> > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been > >> misused > >> > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations > in > >> > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's > >> point). So, > >> > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that > >> the AD in > >> > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. > >> > > >> > That's not the impression one gets from modules like > >> > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt > >> > >> > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is > >> willing > >> > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of > >> > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - > >> > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the > >> > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so > >> > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually > >> > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. > >> > > >> > Randy > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > netmod mailing list > >> > netmod@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> netmod mailing list > >> netmod@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> netmod mailing list > >> netmod@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --0000000000000d7aee05dc6552b0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 11:09 AM Rand= y Presuhn <randy_pr= esuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:
Hi -

On 2022-04-11 10:43 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> Do we have reason to believe that no one outside the IETF has used > ip-address as we published in ways that need a zone?

It seems like wishful thinking.=C2=A0 There's really no way to verify t= hat
no one anywhere has used the specification as it was intended.

> It seems to me that the first step in the plan below is reasonable.=C2= =A0 But

Agreed.

> changing ip-address itself seems a bad idea.=C2=A0 If one means no-zon= e, use
> the -no-zone typedef.

I'd go further.=C2=A0 There are at least two bad ideas in the second st= ep:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (1) the incompatible change to ip-address

IMO this change aligns with the operational expectations= =C2=A0and actual usage.
To Acee's point, nobody has said (on = this list) that they used ip-address
and wanted zones, or support= ed it.

There isn't any YANG statement (yet) th= at could warn the user
that a typedef is going to have an NBC-cha= nge in 2 years,
and then another (in 2 years) stating the NBC cha= nge occurred.

Real code (and YANG is just more sou= rce code) needs incompatible changes
once in a while.=C2=A0 Some = languages have deprecation warnings.
YANG needs that, and hopeful= ly the versioning work will address it.


=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (2) the deprecation of ip-address-no-zone, which would trigge= r
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 maintenance headaches for everyone who used tha= t type
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 correctly in the first place.
<= div>
agreed that this does not need to be deprecated
=C2=A0

Hoping that Yang versioning would be able to paper over the
resulting mess strikes me as overly optimistic.


The NBC issues are real (as this threa= d clearly demonstrates).
There are corner-cases where an incompat= ible change is the least worst solution.

=C2=A0
Randy


Andy
=C2=A0
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 4/11/2022 1:28 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 10:07 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton)
>> <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>> <mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hi all,
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks for the comments on this thread so far.= =C2=A0 It would be nice if
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 we are able to come to some sort of rough conse= nsus to a solution.
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I think that there is consensus that the YANG t= ype ip-address (and
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prom= inent default type
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 name has been given to the unusual variant of i= ncluding zone
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 information.
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Based on the comments on this thread, it also s= eems likely to me
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that most of the usages of ip-address in YANG R= FCs is likely to be
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 wrong, and the intention was that IP addresses = without zones was
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 intended.=C2=A0 At a rough count, of the publis= hed RFC YANG models at
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be:
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 86 uses of ip= -address
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 68 uses of ip= v4-address
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 66 uses of ip= v6-address
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 use of ip-a= ddress-no-zone
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 4 uses of ipv= 4-address-no-zone
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 4 uses of ipv= 6-address-no-zone
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG mo= dules published in
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFCs.=C2=A0 At a quick guess/check it looks lik= e these 49 YANG modules
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 may appear in 40-50 RFCs.
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As mentioned previously, it is also worth compa= ring this to the
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 OpenConfig YANG modules:
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 varia= nts) to exclude zone
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 information and have defined separate types inc= lude zone information.
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned&= quot; variants of OpenConfig IP
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repos= itory.=C2=A0 However,
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 approximately a third of the IP address types a= re still to the
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-ine= t-types.yang, so in
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 theory some of those 58 entries could still int= entionally be
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 supporting zoned IP addresses, but I would expe= ct that the vast
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 majority would not.
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I do see some strong benefit if this basic type= being defined in the
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 same way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believ= e that the OC folks
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 have got the definition right.
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I see that some are arguing that the zone in th= e ip-address
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 definition is effectively optional, and impleme= ntations are not
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 really obliged to implement it.=C2=A0 I don'= ;t find that argument
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 compelling, at least not with the current defin= ition of ip-address
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in RFC 6991.=C2=A0 I see a clear difference bet= ween a type defined with
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid= values and a type
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that is explicitly defined to included addition= al values in the
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 allowable value space.=C2=A0 Further, I believe= that a client just
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 looking at the YANG module could reasonably exp= ect a server that
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 implements a data node using ip-address would b= e expected to support
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IP zones, where they are meaningful, or otherwi= se they should
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 deviate that data node to indicate that they do= n't conform to the
>> model.
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We also need to be realistic as to what impleme= ntations will do.
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are not going to start writing code to sup= port zones just
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 because they are in the model.=C2=A0 They will = mostly reject IP addresses
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 with zone information.=C2=A0 Perhaps some will = deviate the type to
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't= .
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to = fix this doesn't feel
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 at all appealing.=C2=A0 This would take a signi= ficant amount of
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 time/effort and I think that we will struggle t= o find folks who are
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 willing to do this.=C2=A0 Although errata could= be used to point out the
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the = errata would be "hold for
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 document update" at best.=C2=A0 Further, d= uring the time that it would
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 take us to fix it, it is plausible that more in= correct usages of
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could= be policed via
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 scripted checks/warnings).
>>
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I still feel the right long-term solution here = is to get to a state
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the "ip-address" type means wha= t 99% of people expect it to
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 mean, i.e., excluding zone information.
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Given the pushback on making a single non-backw= ards compatible
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 change to the new definition, I want to ask whe= ther the following
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 might be a possible path that gains wider conse= nsus:
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we:
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and = v4 and v6 versions)
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 and keep the -no-zone versions.
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (ii) we change the description of "ip-addr= ess" to indicate:
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Although the type allows for zone information= , many
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 implementations are unlikely to accept zone inf= ormation in most
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 scenarios (i.e., so the description of the type= more accurately
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 reflects reality).
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been intr= oduced to use where
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 zoned IP addresses are required/useful, and mod= els that use
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ip-address with the intention of supporting zon= ed IP addresses MUST
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 migrate to ip-address-with-zone.
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 699= 1 bis is published),
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the expectation is that the definition of ip-ad= dress will change to
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 match that of ip-address-no-zone.
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-b= is-bis to change the
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no= -zone and deprecate
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the "-no-zone" version at the same ti= me.
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My reasoning as to why to take this path is: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3= rd parties have time
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to migrate.
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (2) It ends up with the right definition (with = the added bonus that
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 it aligns to the OC definition).
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ = RFCs.
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioni= ng to flag this as an
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NBC change, along with the other standards to h= elp mitigate this
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 change (import revision-or-derived, YANG packag= es, schema
>> comparison).
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether thi= s could be a workable
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you wo= uld be able to live
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 with it.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a very thoughtful proposal. Looks good to me.
>>
>> It does introduce a window in which some new modules might start u= sing
>> 'ip-address-no-zone'.
>> Should they wait for the real 'ip-address' in 2 more years= or just use
>> 'ip-address-no-zone'?
>>
>> The leaf description-stmt using 'ip-address' should specif= y if any
>> zone support is required.
>> The default could be 'none' so no mention is needed most o= f the time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Regards,
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Rob
>>
>>
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > -----Original Message-----
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of R= andy Presuhn
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org <mailto= :chopps@chopps.org>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Cc: lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>; netmod@ietf.org
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Acti= on:
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > yang-10.txt
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Hi -
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hop= ps wrote:
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > ..
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure= I'd call him WG B :) is asserting
>> that
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > *nobody* actually wanted the cu= rrent type, and it has been
>> misused
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > everywhere and all over. The va= st majority of implementations in
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > operation probably can't ev= en handle the actual type (Andy's
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 point). So,
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > Acee is just the messenger of b= ad news here. Please note that
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the AD in
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > charge of all this agreed with = Acee as well.
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > That's not the impression one ge= ts from modules like
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <http= s://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > which employs both types.=C2=A0 So, = regardless of whether one is
>> willing
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > to respect YANG's compatibility = rules, it's no longer a matter of
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > speculation whether a name change wo= uld cause actual damage -
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > it clearly would.=C2=A0 Furthermore,= my recollection is that the
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > WG *did* discuss whether the "z= onable" property was needed, so
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > any argument based on the assertion = that "*nobody* actually
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > wanted the current type" seems = to me to based on a false premise.
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Randy
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > ____________________________________= ___________
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > netmod mailing list
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/netmod>
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 _______________________________________________=
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 netmod mailing list
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/netmod
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/netmod>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.o= rg
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
_______________________________________________
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RTFndU25zsa8RxKuu1qJBu0SOAAmnU5Fu00CzfKFGdFjv3jTzSSIe.zP54H2CzVZZ5VFuQet_68Z rO2L_mg79XbzM8MP06ZkaCNCy5DXxdbmw50CDmjIyNM4Yb3BfjKT6oMChcUAT1iH1dgWulNvdPKV .srIwy6z_F7L8bx5KxQBaPfQRxbldtKvdmop.nMPjE.rmjl_fccWRMS9SyWP_nIw0GBDtDe5Olg4 uZwvwNi3LzsMqLgctpRev6icnSe0Xhr5ztxBZwydwnBSIAxxUj0lhX19Zq6OjPAfmhtJFssD2dKY fGudLKwr0k5OwPzwk3L8RR3ZzF.d8xWLfCAxOBGpOPoE- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic320.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 01:02:37 +0000 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 01:02:28 +0000 (UTC) From: Reshad Rahman Reply-To: Reshad Rahman To: Randy Presuhn , Andy Bierman , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Cc: NetMod WG Message-ID: <1366420270.508076.1649725348784@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> <259994f4-990d-18cb-bc2f-c2c26c4 3fb6b@alumni.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_508075_148684939.1649725348780" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20048 YMailNorrin Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 01:02:46 -0000 ------=_Part_508075_148684939.1649725348780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rob, I think your suggestion is a good compromise. I don't see the issue with deprecating no-zone since it can still be used. Regards,Reshad. On Monday, April 11, 2022, 02:43:53 PM EDT, Andy Bierman wrote: =20 =20 =20 On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 11:09 AM Randy Presuhn wrote: Hi - On 2022-04-11 10:43 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Do we have reason to believe that no one outside the IETF has used=20 > ip-address as we published in ways that need a zone? It seems like wishful thinking.=C2=A0 There's really no way to verify that no one anywhere has used the specification as it was intended. > It seems to me that the first step in the plan below is reasonable.=C2=A0= But Agreed. > changing ip-address itself seems a bad idea.=C2=A0 If one means no-zone, = use=20 > the -no-zone typedef. I'd go further.=C2=A0 There are at least two bad ideas in the second step: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (1) the incompatible change to ip-address IMO this change aligns with the operational expectations=C2=A0and actual us= age.To Acee's point, nobody has said (on this list) that they used ip-addre= ssand wanted zones, or supported it. There isn't any YANG statement (yet) that could warn the userthat a typedef= is going to have an NBC-change in 2 years,and then another (in 2 years) st= ating the NBC change occurred. Real code (and YANG is just more source code) needs incompatible changesonc= e in a while.=C2=A0 Some languages have deprecation warnings.YANG needs tha= t, and hopefully the versioning work will address it. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (2) the deprecation of ip-address-no-zone, which would trigge= r =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 maintenance headaches for everyone who used tha= t type =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 correctly in the first place. agreed that this does not need to be deprecated=C2=A0 Hoping that Yang versioning would be able to paper over the resulting mess strikes me as overly optimistic. The NBC issues are real (as this thread clearly demonstrates).There are cor= ner-cases where an incompatible change is the least worst solution. =C2=A0 Randy Andy=C2=A0 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 4/11/2022 1:28 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 10:07 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton)=20 >> > > wrote: >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hi all, >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks for the comments on this thread so far.=C2=A0 = It would be nice if >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 we are able to come to some sort of rough consensus t= o a solution. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip= -address (and >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent = default type >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 name has been given to the unusual variant of includi= ng zone >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 information. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems l= ikely to me >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that most of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is= likely to be >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 wrong, and the intention was that IP addresses withou= t zones was >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 intended.=C2=A0 At a rough count, of the published RF= C YANG models at >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 86 uses of ip-addre= ss >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 68 uses of ipv4-add= ress >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 66 uses of ipv6-add= ress >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 use of ip-address= -no-zone >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 4 uses of ipv4-addr= ess-no-zone >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 4 uses of ipv6-addr= ess-no-zone >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules = published in >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFCs.=C2=A0 At a quick guess/check it looks like thes= e 49 YANG modules >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 may appear in 40-50 RFCs. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing t= his to the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 OpenConfig YANG modules: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) t= o exclude zone >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 information and have defined separate types include z= one information. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants o= f OpenConfig IP >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository.= =C2=A0 However, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 approximately a third of the IP address types are sti= ll to the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-type= s.yang, so in >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 theory some of those 58 entries could still intention= ally be >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 supporting zoned IP addresses, but I would expect tha= t the vast >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 majority would not. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being= defined in the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 same way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that= the OC folks >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 have got the definition right. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-a= ddress >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 definition is effectively optional, and implementatio= ns are not >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 really obliged to implement it.=C2=A0 I don't find th= at argument >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 compelling, at least not with the current definition = of ip-address >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in RFC 6991.=C2=A0 I see a clear difference between a= type defined with >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid value= s and a type >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that is explicitly defined to included additional val= ues in the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 allowable value space.=C2=A0 Further, I believe that = a client just >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a = server that >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 implements a data node using ip-address would be expe= cted to support >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IP zones, where they are meaningful, or otherwise the= y should >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 deviate that data node to indicate that they don't co= nform to the=20 >> model. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We also need to be realistic as to what implementatio= ns will do.=20 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are not going to start writing code to support z= ones just >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 because they are in the model.=C2=A0 They will mostly= reject IP addresses >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 with zone information.=C2=A0 Perhaps some will deviat= e the type to >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix th= is doesn't feel >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 at all appealing.=C2=A0 This would take a significant= amount of >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 time/effort and I think that we will struggle to find= folks who are >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 willing to do this.=C2=A0 Although errata could be us= ed to point out the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the errata wou= ld be "hold for >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 document update" at best.=C2=A0 Further, during the t= ime that it would >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrec= t usages of >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could be po= liced via >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 scripted checks/warnings). >> >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I still feel the right long-term solution here is to = get to a state >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people = expect it to >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 mean, i.e., excluding zone information. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards c= ompatible >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 change to the new definition, I want to ask whether t= he following >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 might be a possible path that gains wider consensus: >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and= v6 versions) >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 and keep the -no-zone versions. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to ind= icate: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Although the type allows for zone information, many >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 implementations are unlikely to accept zone informati= on in most >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 scenarios (i.e., so the description of the type more = accurately >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 reflects reality). >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced= to use where >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 zoned IP addresses are required/useful, and models th= at use >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ip-address with the intention of supporting zoned IP = addresses MUST >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 migrate to ip-address-with-zone. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis = is published), >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the expectation is that the definition of ip-address = will change to >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 match that of ip-address-no-zone. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis= to change the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone = and deprecate >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the "-no-zone" version at the same time. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My reasoning as to why to take this path is: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd par= ties have time >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to migrate. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the ad= ded bonus that >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 it aligns to the OC definition). >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to = flag this as an >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NBC change, along with the other standards to help mi= tigate this >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 change (import revision-or-derived, YANG packages, sc= hema=20 >> comparison). >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this coul= d be a workable >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be= able to live >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 with it. >> >> >> >> This is a very thoughtful proposal. Looks good to me. >> >> It does introduce a window in which some new modules might start using= =20 >> 'ip-address-no-zone'. >> Should they wait for the real 'ip-address' in 2 more years or just use= =20 >> 'ip-address-no-zone'? >> >> The leaf description-stmt using 'ip-address' should specify if any=20 >> zone support is required. >> The default could be 'none' so no mention is needed most of the time. >> >> >> >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Regards, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Rob >> >> >> >> Andy >> >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > -----Original Message----- >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > From: netmod > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > On Behalf Of Randy = Presuhn >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > To: Christian Hopps > >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; netmo= d@ietf.org >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa- >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > yang-10.txt >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Hi - >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > .. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG= B :) is asserting=20 >> that >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, = and it has been=20 >> misused >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority = of implementations in >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > operation probably can't even handle the ac= tual type (Andy's >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 point). So, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here= . Please note that >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the AD in >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well= . >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > That's not the impression one gets from modul= es like >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mp= ls-mldp-yang-10.txt >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > which employs both types.=C2=A0 So, regardles= s of whether one is=20 >> willing >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's n= o longer a matter of >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > speculation whether a name change would cause= actual damage - >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > it clearly would.=C2=A0 Furthermore, my recol= lection is that the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" proper= ty was needed, so >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > any argument based on the assertion that "*no= body* actually >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > wanted the current type" seems to me to based= on a false premise. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Randy >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > _____________________________________________= __ >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > netmod mailing list >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > netmod@ietf.org >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 _______________________________________________ >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 netmod mailing list >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 netmod@ietf.org >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod =20 ------=_Part_508075_148684939.1649725348780 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rob, I think your suggestion= is a good compromise.

I don't see the issue with depreca= ting no-zone since it can still be used.

Regards,
<= div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Reshad.

=20
=20
On Monday, April 11, 2022, 02:43:53 PM EDT, Andy Bierma= n <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:




On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 11:09 AM Randy Presuhn= <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> = wrote:
Hi -

On 2022-04-11 10:43 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> Do we have reason to believe that no one outside the IETF has used > ip-address as we published in ways that need a zone?

It seems like wishful thinking.  There's really no way to verify that<= br clear=3D"none"> no one anywhere has used the specification as it was intended.

> It seems to me that the first step in the plan below is reasonable.&nb= sp; But

Agreed.

> changing ip-address itself seems a bad idea.  If one means no-zon= e, use
> the -no-zone typedef.

I'd go further.  There are at least two bad ideas in the second step:<= br clear=3D"none">     (1) the incompatible change to ip-address
<= /blockquote>

IMO this change aligns with = the operational expectations and actual usage.
To Acee's poi= nt, nobody has said (on this list) that they used ip-address
and = wanted zones, or supported it.

Ther= e isn't any YANG statement (yet) that could warn the user
that a = typedef is going to have an NBC-change in 2 years,
and then anoth= er (in 2 years) stating the NBC change occurred.

Real code (and YANG is just more source code) needs incompati= ble changes
once in a while.  Some languages have deprecatio= n warnings.
YANG needs that, and hopefully the versioning work wi= ll address it.


<= /div>


    (2) the deprecation of ip-address-no-zone, which would trigge= r
        maintenance headaches for everyone who used tha= t type
        correctly in the first place.

agreed that this does not = need to be deprecated
 

Hoping that Yang versioning would be able to paper over the
resulting mess strikes me as overly optimistic.


The NBC = issues are real (as this thread clearly demonstrates).
There are = corner-cases where an incompatible change is the least worst solution.

 
Randy


Andy
 
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 4/11/2022 1:28 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 10:07 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton)
>> <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
>> <mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= > wrote:
>>
>>     Hi all,
>>
>>     Thanks for the comments on this thread so far.&= nbsp; It would be nice if
>>     we are able to come to some sort of rough conse= nsus to a solution.
>>
>>     I think that there is consensus that the YANG t= ype ip-address (and
>>     the v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prom= inent default type
>>     name has been given to the unusual variant of i= ncluding zone
>>     information.
>>
>>     Based on the comments on this thread, it also s= eems likely to me
>>     that most of the usages of ip-address in YANG R= FCs is likely to be
>>     wrong, and the intention was that IP addresses = without zones was
>>     intended.  At a rough count, of the publis= hed RFC YANG models at
>>     github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be:
>>              86 uses of ip= -address
>>              68 uses of ip= v4-address
>>              66 uses of ip= v6-address
>>
>>              1 use of ip-a= ddress-no-zone
>>              4 uses of ipv= 4-address-no-zone
>>              4 uses of ipv= 6-address-no-zone
>>
>>     These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG mo= dules published in
>>     RFCs.  At a quick guess/check it looks lik= e these 49 YANG modules
>>     may appear in 40-50 RFCs.
>>
>>     As mentioned previously, it is also worth compa= ring this to the
>>     OpenConfig YANG modules:
>>     They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 varia= nts) to exclude zone
>>     information and have defined separate types inc= lude zone information.
>>     There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" vari= ants of OpenConfig IP
>>     addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repos= itory.  However,
>>     approximately a third of the IP address types a= re still to the
>>     ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-ine= t-types.yang, so in
>>     theory some of those 58 entries could still int= entionally be
>>     supporting zoned IP addresses, but I would expe= ct that the vast
>>     majority would not.
>>     I do see some strong benefit if this basic type= being defined in the
>>     same way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believ= e that the OC folks
>>     have got the definition right.
>>
>>     I see that some are arguing that the zone in th= e ip-address
>>     definition is effectively optional, and impleme= ntations are not
>>     really obliged to implement it.  I don't f= ind that argument
>>     compelling, at least not with the current defin= ition of ip-address
>>     in RFC 6991.  I see a clear difference bet= ween a type defined with
>>     an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid= values and a type
>>     that is explicitly defined to included addition= al values in the
>>     allowable value space.  Further, I believe= that a client just
>>     looking at the YANG module could reasonably exp= ect a server that
>>     implements a data node using ip-address would b= e expected to support
>>     IP zones, where they are meaningful, or otherwi= se they should
>>     deviate that data node to indicate that they do= n't conform to the
>> model.
>>
>>     We also need to be realistic as to what impleme= ntations will do.
>>     They are not going to start writing code to sup= port zones just
>>     because they are in the model.  They will = mostly reject IP addresses
>>     with zone information.  Perhaps some will = deviate the type to
>>     ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't. >>
>>     The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to = fix this doesn't feel
>>     at all appealing.  This would take a signi= ficant amount of
>>     time/effort and I think that we will struggle t= o find folks who are
>>     willing to do this.  Although errata could= be used to point out the
>>     bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the erra= ta would be "hold for
>>     document update" at best.  Further, during= the time that it would
>>     take us to fix it, it is plausible that more in= correct usages of
>>     ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could= be policed via
>>     scripted checks/warnings).
>>
>>
>>     I still feel the right long-term solution here = is to get to a state
>>     where the "ip-address" type means what 99% of p= eople expect it to
>>     mean, i.e., excluding zone information.
>>
>>     Given the pushback on making a single non-backw= ards compatible
>>     change to the new definition, I want to ask whe= ther the following
>>     might be a possible path that gains wider conse= nsus:
>>
>>     (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we:
>>     (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and = v4 and v6 versions)
>>     and keep the -no-zone versions.
>>     (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" = to indicate:
>>     - Although the type allows for zone information= , many
>>     implementations are unlikely to accept zone inf= ormation in most
>>     scenarios (i.e., so the description of the type= more accurately
>>     reflects reality).
>>     - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been intr= oduced to use where
>>     zoned IP addresses are required/useful, and mod= els that use
>>     ip-address with the intention of supporting zon= ed IP addresses MUST
>>     migrate to ip-address-with-zone.
>>     - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 699= 1 bis is published),
>>     the expectation is that the definition of ip-ad= dress will change to
>>     match that of ip-address-no-zone.
>>
>>     (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-b= is-bis to change the
>>     definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no= -zone and deprecate
>>     the "-no-zone" version at the same time.
>>
>>     My reasoning as to why to take this path is: >>     (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3= rd parties have time
>>     to migrate.
>>     (2) It ends up with the right definition (with = the added bonus that
>>     it aligns to the OC definition).
>>     (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs= .
>>     (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioni= ng to flag this as an
>>     NBC change, along with the other standards to h= elp mitigate this
>>     change (import revision-or-derived, YANG packag= es, schema
>> comparison).
>>
>>     I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether thi= s could be a workable
>>     consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you wo= uld be able to live
>>     with it.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a very thoughtful proposal. Looks good to me.
>>
>> It does introduce a window in which some new modules might start u= sing
>> 'ip-address-no-zone'.
>> Should they wait for the real 'ip-address' in 2 more years or just= use
>> 'ip-address-no-zone'?
>>
>> The leaf description-stmt using 'ip-address' should specify if any=
>> zone support is required.
>> The default could be 'none' so no mention is needed most of the ti= me.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Regards,
>>     Rob
>>
>>
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>>      > -----Original Message-----
>>      > From: netmod <n= etmod-bounces@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:netmod-bounces@iet= f.org>> On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
>>      > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59
>>      > To: Christian Hopps <= chopps@chopps.org <mailto:chopps@chopps.org>><= br clear=3D"none"> >>      > Cc: lsr@ietf.org <mail= to:lsr@ietf.org>; netmod@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> >>      > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Acti= on:
>>     draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-
>>      > yang-10.txt
>>      >
>>      > Hi -
>>      >
>>      > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hop= ps wrote:
>>      > ..
>>      > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd= call him WG B :) is asserting
>> that
>>      > > *nobody* actually wanted the cu= rrent type, and it has been
>> misused
>>      > > everywhere and all over. The va= st majority of implementations in
>>      > > operation probably can't even h= andle the actual type (Andy's
>>     point). So,
>>      > > Acee is just the messenger of b= ad news here. Please note that
>>     the AD in
>>      > > charge of all this agreed with = Acee as well.
>>      >
>>      > That's not the impression one gets f= rom modules like
>>      > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-1= 0.txt
>>     <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt>
>>      > which employs both types.  So, = regardless of whether one is
>> willing
>>      > to respect YANG's compatibility rule= s, it's no longer a matter of
>>      > speculation whether a name change wo= uld cause actual damage -
>>      > it clearly would.  Furthermore,= my recollection is that the
>>      > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonabl= e" property was needed, so
>>      > any argument based on the assertion = that "*nobody* actually
>>      > wanted the current type" seems to me= to based on a false premise.
>>      >
>>      > Randy
>>      >
>>      > ____________________________________= ___________
>>      > netmod mailing list
>>      > netmod@ietf.org <ma= ilto:netmod@ietf.org>
>>      > http= s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>     <https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________=
>>     netmod mailing list
>>     netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>     <https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi= nfo/netmod
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/= netmod

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmo= d
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/netmod
------=_Part_508075_148684939.1649725348780-- From nobody Mon Apr 11 22:26:11 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F1C3A1D3A; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:26:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yr_1KtnJafu1; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1033.google.com (mail-pj1-x1033.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1033]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F21C3A1D39; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1033.google.com with SMTP id a16-20020a17090a6d9000b001c7d6c1bb13so1667755pjk.4; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:26:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=gYJrARFsljK+Q9DS2XEGDU+PaMmUoUkRctji5OdEC2U=; b=jUPh+m59mi+bILoaVn9Pau975Rg5NI4XlAp4DFYNL/cF3W5RuP1G6AY+D0IgFTRHSC BigzaHIdbxlpRrepLM9z0A9Mqw+kRm3bDenkVnd6Wz02NfFUZkaIYLixraeygeVd9xuT KwEoN7QM9V7UQw5wl1uURB6Rc/SesJtx1f6pVLwrQpQZkF1Vcjo52kjxnoTSnBwC5rm+ jBP3UP9KPC5gekhdEOQLst6IQZzvKusGQ2dh95/+Q4ug54ddBSW4vMZ9O9u1b5GWvDS/ ABfmMlzXyuoaND42Bc3Gp/FGP4za0e9z9VeGmMRztGhgJQYWeKF27AU1LRsReNVa/IK4 UhBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=gYJrARFsljK+Q9DS2XEGDU+PaMmUoUkRctji5OdEC2U=; b=1Zt0R6uDpJRxTmbhh/sRYOo7YHSM4iTmhgnvDS8buZIkZg8F7TdfD80W5XJTVKx7zn EyZQoYgCYDpQ0HgNx1zIIVxx/U3k4vKjV+anSeqtX32ymcMcvjO+ZifCnm046nVQbrvC iYlwn98ccD8GEp0V0sP+NLkhDXA7YbwRTPMv1lJNYjSdeCMd/ynUCZ2D9obiNiwDdp1I My4WA4fX+ldyVe5FIRPAYqr2R4/dsxE9yVPF51CQOMiRVdIoleqqthas66EiiV01rrvp K9XiXiRCYGXeWp+BY3a2CcySbI1AxjgNIY9ZVZZvILJHREvCTwDtwIJya6lnqcuVOzyR /oHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533qwoEWqq7DeR/ARv6ZF/KFZpOPUxEfJa+tnVBXbSJ2rCBul9+7 X0ksFiwDL6Vtq4/fHnC8YA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx7IiwjafW3ZgjL/Ly/DdSUScblnP3XFgdad7uP9D1ymfM1iLFa75u6sKZi75DWwtT4EB1EOA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:8595:b0:1bb:fbfd:bfbf with SMTP id m21-20020a17090a859500b001bbfbfdbfbfmr2994173pjn.125.1649741162257; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2601:646:9702:c61:e52f:689c:69f5:62d0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v4-20020a622f04000000b005057a24d478sm13446765pfv.121.2022.04.11.22.26.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:26:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Yingzhen Qu Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B1EFD198-E143-47DD-B83F-6C9CAC8F741A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:25:58 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 05:26:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B1EFD198-E143-47DD-B83F-6C9CAC8F741A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Rob, Thanks for the thoughtful proposal, and I support it. One thing to confirm, for models that may become RFCs in the next two = years and where the IP address doesn=E2=80=99t support zones, = "ip-address=E2=80=9D should still be used. Correct? Thanks, Yingzhen > On Apr 11, 2022, at 10:06 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if we = are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. >=20 > I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the = v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has = been given to the unusual variant of including zone information. >=20 > Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me that = most of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and = the intention was that IP addresses without zones was intended. At a = rough count, of the published RFC YANG models at github = YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: > 86 uses of ip-address > 68 uses of ipv4-address > 66 uses of ipv6-address >=20 > 1 use of ip-address-no-zone > 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone > 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone >=20 > These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in = RFCs. At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may = appear in 40-50 RFCs. >=20 > As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the = OpenConfig YANG modules: > They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone = information and have defined separate types include zone information. > There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP = addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, = approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the = ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in = theory some of those 58 entries could still intentionally be supporting = zoned IP addresses, but I would expect that the vast majority would not. > I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the = same way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have = got the definition right. >=20 > I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address definition = is effectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to = implement it. I don't find that argument compelling, at least not with = the current definition of ip-address in RFC 6991. I see a clear = difference between a type defined with an incomplete regex that may = allow some invalid values and a type that is explicitly defined to = included additional values in the allowable value space. Further, I = believe that a client just looking at the YANG module could reasonably = expect a server that implements a data node using ip-address would be = expected to support IP zones, where they are meaningful, or otherwise = they should deviate that data node to indicate that they don't conform = to the model. >=20 > We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. They = are not going to start writing code to support zones just because they = are in the model. They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone = information. Perhaps some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, = but probably most won't. >=20 > The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel = at all appealing. This would take a significant amount of time/effort = and I think that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do = this. Although errata could be used to point out the bug, then can't be = used to fix it, all the errata would be "hold for document update" at = best. Further, during the time that it would take us to fix it, it is = plausible that more incorrect usages of ip-address will likely occur = (but perhaps could be policed via scripted checks/warnings). >=20 >=20 > I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state = where the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to mean, = i.e., excluding zone information. >=20 > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change = to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a = possible path that gains wider consensus: >=20 > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and = keep the -no-zone versions. > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > - Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations = are unlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the = description of the type more accurately reflects reality). > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where = zoned IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address = with the intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to = ip-address-with-zone. > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), = the expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to = match that of ip-address-no-zone. >=20 > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the = definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the = "-no-zone" version at the same time. >=20 > My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to = migrate. > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it = aligns to the OC definition). > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an = NBC change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change = (import revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). >=20 > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable = consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with = it. >=20 > Regards, > Rob >=20 >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: netmod > On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn >> Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 >> To: Christian Hopps > >> Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; netmod@ietf.org = >> Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: = draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa- >> yang-10.txt >>=20 >> Hi - >>=20 >> On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: >> .. >>> Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that >>> *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused >>> everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in >>> operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's point). = So, >>> Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the AD = in >>> charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. >>=20 >> That's not the impression one gets from modules like >> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt >> which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is willing >> to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of >> speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - >> it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the >> WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so >> any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually >> wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. >>=20 >> Randy >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod = >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr = --Apple-Mail=_B1EFD198-E143-47DD-B83F-6C9CAC8F741A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Rob,

Thanks for the = thoughtful proposal, and I support it.

One thing to confirm, for models that = may become RFCs in the next two years and where the IP address doesn=E2=80= =99t support zones, "ip-address=E2=80=9D should still be used. = Correct?

Thanks,
Yingzhen


On Apr 11, 2022, at 10:06 AM, Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi all,

Thanks for the comments on this thread so far.  It would = be nice if we are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a = solution.

I think that = there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the v4/v6 = versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has been = given to the unusual variant of including zone information.

Based on the comments on this = thread, it also seems likely to me that most of the usages of ip-address = in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and the intention was that IP = addresses without zones was intended.  At a rough count, of the = published RFC YANG models at github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to = be:
86 uses of ip-address
= 68 uses of = ipv4-address
66 uses of ipv6-address

= 1 use of = ip-address-no-zone
= 4 uses of = ipv4-address-no-zone
= 4 uses of = ipv6-address-no-zone

These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules = published in RFCs.  At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 = YANG modules may appear in 40-50 RFCs.

As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to = the OpenConfig YANG modules:
They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to = exclude zone information and have defined separate types include zone = information.
There are no = explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP addresses in the = latest OpenConfig github repository.  However, approximately a = third of the IP address types are still to the ietf-inet-types.yang = rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory some of those 58 = entries could still intentionally be supporting zoned IP addresses, but = I would expect that the vast majority would not.
I do see some strong benefit if = this basic type being defined in the same way in both IETF and OC YANG, = and I believe that the OC folks have got the definition right.

I see that some are arguing that = the zone in the ip-address definition is effectively optional, and = implementations are not really obliged to implement it.  I don't = find that argument compelling, at least not with the current definition = of ip-address in RFC 6991.  I see a clear difference between a type = defined with an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values and = a type that is explicitly defined to included additional values in the = allowable value space.  Further, I believe that a client just = looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that = implements a data node using ip-address would be expected to support IP = zones, where they are meaningful, or otherwise they should deviate that = data node to indicate that they don't conform to the model.

We also need to be realistic as = to what implementations will do.  They are not going to start = writing code to support zones just because they are in the model. =  They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone information. =  Perhaps some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, but = probably most won't.

The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this = doesn't feel at all appealing.  This would take a significant = amount of time/effort and I think that we will struggle to find folks = who are willing to do this.  Although errata could be used to point = out the bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the errata would be "hold = for document update" at best.  Further, during the time that it = would take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrect usages of = ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed via scripted = checks/warnings).


I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a = state where the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to = mean, i.e., excluding zone information.

Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards = compatible change to the new definition, I want to ask whether the = following might be a possible path that gains wider consensus:

(1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose = that we:
(i) define = new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and keep the = -no-zone versions.
(ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to = indicate:
- Although = the type allows for zone information, many implementations are unlikely = to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the description = of the type more accurately reflects reality).
- A new ip-address-with-zone = type has been introduced to use where zoned IP addresses are = required/useful, and models that use ip-address with the intention of = supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to = ip-address-with-zone.
- In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is = published), the expectation is that the definition of ip-address will = change to match that of ip-address-no-zone.

(2) Then in 2 years time, we = publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the definition of ip-address to match = ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the "-no-zone" version at the same = time.

My reasoning = as to why to take this path is:
(1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties = have time to migrate.
(2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added = bonus that it aligns to the OC definition).
(3) It doesn't require us = republishing 40+ RFCs.
(4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag = this as an NBC change, along with the other standards to help mitigate = this change (import revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema = comparison).

I would be = keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable consensus = solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with = it.

Regards,
Rob



-----Original Message-----
From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59
To: Christian Hopps = <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: = draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-
yang-10.txt

Hi -

On = 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote:
..
Instead, Acee (I'm not = sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that
*nobody* = actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused
everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations = in
operation probably can't even handle the actual type = (Andy's point). So,
Acee is just the messenger of bad news = here. Please note that the AD in
charge of all this agreed = with Acee as well.

That's not = the impression one gets from modules like
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.tx= t
which employs both types.  So, regardless of = whether one is willing
to respect YANG's compatibility = rules, it's no longer a matter of
speculation whether a = name change would cause actual damage -
it clearly would. =  Furthermore, my recollection is that the
WG *did* = discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so
any = argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually
wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false = premise.

Randy

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netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

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= --Apple-Mail=_B1EFD198-E143-47DD-B83F-6C9CAC8F741A-- From nobody Mon Apr 11 23:29:18 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 284DD3A1010; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 23:29:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WVpo8xM9FQqO; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 23:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9FA3A0FE9; Mon, 11 Apr 2022 23:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ja.int.chopps.org.chopps.org (047-026-251-217.res.spectrum.com [47.26.251.217]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5C7E07D017; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 06:29:13 +0000 (UTC) References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> User-agent: mu4e 1.7.12; emacs 28.0.92 From: Christian Hopps To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 01:44:30 -0400 In-reply-to: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 06:29:16 -0000 Nice. I think this a fine way forward with or without step 2. I say leave out the 2 years (or any) deadline, and let people argue over how and when to do step 2 for however long it takes. Given the questions already raised on this thread, we should probably add explicit guidance to RFC6991-bis for new modules. All new modules should: - Use `X` in place of `X-no-zone` - Use `X-zone` in place of `X` if zone info wanted - In the module description indicate that `{ip,ipv4,ipv6}-address` use conforms to the guidance in RFC (6991-bis) Thanks, Chris. "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" writes: > Hi all, .... > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a possible path that gains wider consensus: > > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and keep the -no-zone versions. > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > - Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations are > unlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the description > of the type more accurately reflects reality). > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where zoned IP > addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address with the intention > of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to ip-address-with-zone. > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), the expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to match that of ip-address-no-zone. > > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the "-no-zone" version at the same time. > > My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to migrate. > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it aligns to the OC definition). > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an NBC change, > along with the other standards to help mitigate this change (import > revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). > > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with it. > > Regards, > Rob From nobody Tue Apr 12 00:02:54 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51FCE3A0D16; 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Halpern wrote: > Do we have reason to believe that no one outside the IETF has used > ip-address as we published in ways that need a zone? > > It seems to me that the first step in the plan below is reasonable. But > changing ip-address itself seems a bad idea. If one means no-zone, use the > -no-zone typedef. > I agree. What do we gain by breaking things in two years given that there is no effective way to tell people that they will have a problem in two years? Even in the IETF, I am not sure whether we are ready to republish relevant RFCs during this two year window. And since we are at it, ietf-inet-types also has this definition: typedef host { type union { type inet:ip-address; type inet:host-name; } // .. } This host type is used in other places in combination with a port number to denote transport endpoints and it should be clear why having zone indexes in here is necessary to work with link-local transport endpoints. Sure, we can change this to use inet:ip-address-with-zone, but it is no unlikely that there are other places we do not have control over and where a 2 year time window does effectively mean a big surprise two years later. Apparently, people do not read the description of types. Why would they read scheduled deprecation warnings? For me, the only sensible option (other than accepting that types are named the way they are) is to introduce ip-address-with-zone and to deprecate ip-address and stop there. Yes, this means coexistance of inet:ip-address and ip-address-with-zone until YANG is getting replaced. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Apr 12 00:26:17 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC33E3A1255; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 00:25:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=4668.se header.b=L9unYdVh; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=L1Ne0/7k Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mPprIGrPVWz0; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 00:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E2943A1250; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 00:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD525C01F8; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 03:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 12 Apr 2022 03:25:39 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=4668.se; h=cc:cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1649748339; x= 1649834739; bh=NuoRlawFdz3Z6wCQxAI12X5A8FFb4esxzQw0sRay2SE=; b=L 9unYdVhNEIX0EQuavrGIYz+T3GN0xYfJhGy4gLhbo36hr5OCjL4zmz7b2pCN6UNt n92attpQa+W8WRqKHLlyOpir2ZwuU8kSXSN/iWU31slpZdr7ucFgtlaiMHQmkbHa GjWRxmy83D0vvjjJQQKir/cp0Ojcq8f/xEnk2bBxMRrSS8vF/CPWIcHMJSPq2IcC pGlNwsUCowfUbpRWbm/KTu/3EzOvcOx3BFLqYmZbfybVepTQmHwAu79BSADy33rd w6icYOy9VVzNrDcNvzGVHX61Hom7rwgtlSDw39QGrfYTRfSjYM4YjfN7ML156p2+ w4S/Hb9Vj4obQ+32uemnw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1649748339; x=1649834739; bh=NuoRlawFdz3Z6 wCQxAI12X5A8FFb4esxzQw0sRay2SE=; b=L1Ne0/7kQARXCo5Frd0eBSVXJHydL Ic6i93XLFn6Qx3PgG3yNb0fT8UiX1GNAPeaxdg32BxEVnHKMwHrZ0lgXMsUNpXax jeilDYvr9D+sjATbgo1hN+3aNFMBkxtDHsJIMMZOIXBKjBdWvFffvtF+dMOAlNAG kMTtUaJaXx5cy0tK+WaVSPvVnbXG0e50XPUEDSgOFh2AE2IBGhLICbYYnj7/mKkb X0WMALgp9gTKQwI/8MWYWGEJ9qMOjgrdneakZcrklOfU3woG1WAmJDoqeC5kjhOA S0MBQEZgNAPqmiJ8DIqmYJ9Xwtah0aeF5LduXibQWCAM9N9lwsNHUt3tQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrudekjedguddujecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepfffkvffuhfgjfhfogggtgfesth ejredtredtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhtihhnuceujhpnrhhklhhunhguuceomhgsjhdo ihgvthhfseegieeikedrshgvqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeejteegvdeuleefudduue elgeefgfevvefgveeujeehhfelgefhleeiheeffffhkeenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhf rdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh epmhgsjhdoihgvthhfseegieeikedrshgv X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 03:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:25:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20220412.092537.1752383485754368549.id@4668.se> To: rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org Cc: netmod@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rklund?= In-Reply-To: References: <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:25:51 -0000 Hi, Here's another suggestion. We keep the ip-address pattern as is, but document in the description that implementations do not have to support the optional zone index. This would essentially document the behavior of most current implementations. (This is actually what I suggested in the earliest thread on this topic that I could find: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/KjHGtPqm9D4Q-fRb2hVsf4sPuCU) /martin "Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" wrote: > Hi all, > > Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if we are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. > > I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has been given to the unusual variant of including zone information. > > Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me that most of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and the intention was that IP addresses without zones was intended. At a rough count, of the published RFC YANG models at github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: > 86 uses of ip-address > 68 uses of ipv4-address > 66 uses of ipv6-address > > 1 use of ip-address-no-zone > 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone > 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone > > These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in RFCs. At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may appear in 40-50 RFCs. > > As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the OpenConfig YANG modules: > They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone information and have defined separate types include zone information. > There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory some of those 58 entries could still intentionally be supporting zoned IP addresses, but I would expect that the vast majority would not. > I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the same way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have got the definition right. > > I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address definition is effectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to implement it. I don't find that argument compelling, at least not with the current definition of ip-address in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference between a type defined with an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values and a type that is explicitly defined to included additional values in the allowable value space. Further, I believe that a client just looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that implements a data node using ip-address would be expected to support IP zones, where they are meaningful, or otherwise they should deviate that data node to indicate that they don't conform to the model. > > We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. They are not going to start writing code to support zones just because they are in the model. They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone information. Perhaps some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't. > > The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel at all appealing. This would take a significant amount of time/effort and I think that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do this. Although errata could be used to point out the bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the errata would be "hold for document update" at best. Further, during the time that it would take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrect usages of ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed via scripted checks/warnings). > > > I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state where the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to mean, i.e., excluding zone information. > > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a possible path that gains wider consensus: > > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and keep the -no-zone versions. > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > - Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations are unlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the description of the type more accurately reflects reality). > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where zoned IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address with the intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to ip-address-with-zone. > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), the expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to match that of ip-address-no-zone. > > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the "-no-zone" version at the same time. > > My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to migrate. > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it aligns to the OC definition). > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an NBC change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change (import revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). > > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with it. > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: netmod On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 > > To: Christian Hopps > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa- > > yang-10.txt > > > > Hi - > > > > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > .. > > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that > > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused > > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in > > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's point). So, > > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the AD in > > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. > > > > That's not the impression one gets from modules like > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt > > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is willing > > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of > > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - > > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the > > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so > > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually > > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. > > > > Randy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Tue Apr 12 01:54:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA1F3A0E04 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 01:54:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Axg2roIsRXxW for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 01:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23F6A3A0DF9 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 01:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com with SMTP id q19so931585ybd.6 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 01:54:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wIizaU9XmwEa18jcVOvhXRXbwFde07ecif4QyQ97eqU=; b=j1a1gXmhUS0O235w+8LRWQvNX2J/9YK20ReWqS5iwth365SbcONsOfVzEzTVn2R2SP kzbJ1THwckHNJKDwfEQok6PKlfOYRpHnTrWRVyP/z9yqAIPISI/vKnGgef4F83XJxH+i oVsNHVoJybwDJGX4R6Yra/RTgfaQi41IGdimf7xYZtNX2A7p60qZGog2nZJbivp7Aycz HUDp6YbItvySNA5NzgMijzrWa5D2PYBQF7Ic9TfePmVn6D7ZKjF6PvhomBuxlfVNB38/ c2L77Ectn5Sa/GPeL25upIuZjtlIAi4j17YqdozRszlkyPAUgg7IAX50gXKpP09S4GqZ dEUQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wIizaU9XmwEa18jcVOvhXRXbwFde07ecif4QyQ97eqU=; b=HCO9FP6TjT242K7nmuLRbKTg2aRcQODXFFDg+4teFXUoiP1UzMxcXMeLXNRO+OKXBU uprdl3MtuEJurzSiQreToIk69aBRqPqH25JWkeHajugMpqmiKXxu2hvtpcv6/N40lYvX QMLjGWHvwRtAKEAMNIiFDi/K92/Ulb2Xr41m0EFXTxHKWaCMVyeFInzaD/3Jc9PZSPo1 qj79hhlnp3x/L2MUCo/XKoDbUSVKczyMrSReup43Z4asBwA/tBTcfXaxfBtXJ0QbloPA XNMQpVGvEPvt7tN90tx3hVZF+oeJCbe5h8zlVo0wRQC5Ub6DaQjcth7XcbV1sebCG4Ly wOtA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5317OBiTwsWnXrUuYhsA1SdQD2R3jgYXC8eW/zr8J30aS1C2EEBi dEOHeN1/Om7NB5p+FOb03or+lyBUX/PJy9bvqiW23Pub3fc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxZPLJnxis/mW4asb+41GIcyziHIXndVsYubfjHoeB+z6KODuI6Rp6TAh7aml3D0F++SMsnAAjx0bVaKDKJNWI= X-Received: by 2002:a5b:842:0:b0:633:75b6:4129 with SMTP id v2-20020a5b0842000000b0063375b64129mr26881797ybq.64.1649753665709; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 01:54:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> <20220412.092537.1752383485754368549.id@4668.se> In-Reply-To: <20220412.092537.1752383485754368549.id@4668.se> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 01:54:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_Bj=C3=B6rklund?= Cc: Robert Wilton , lsr@ietf.org, NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000363f0a05dc7135db" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 08:54:33 -0000 --000000000000363f0a05dc7135db Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 12:26 AM Martin Bj=C3=B6rklund w= rote: > Hi, > > Here's another suggestion. We keep the ip-address pattern as is, but > document in the description that implementations do not have to > support the optional zone index. This would essentially document the > behavior of most current implementations. (This is actually what I > suggested in the earliest thread on this topic that I could find: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/KjHGtPqm9D4Q-fRb2hVsf4sPuCU) > > > The point of the 2 year warning is to allow anybody using ip-address and really wants a zone index to move to the (new) ip-address-with-zone typedef instead. It has yet to be shown that this subset is not empty. This is better than making an NBC change with no warning. If people did not bother to read the typedef, why would they read the warning? This is also true, but no different than C programmers who ignore gcc warnings. Is the NBC change needed at all? Maybe not. It would be better in the long term to align with OpenConfig and with 99 - 100% of the implementations. The standards are a means to an end. Nothing more. If 99 - 100% of the implementations are already doing what is needed, then it would be a bad idea to disrupt that for the sake of standards purity. > /martin > Andy > > > "Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if we > are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. > > > > I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the > v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has be= en > given to the unusual variant of including zone information. > > > > Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me that > most of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and > the intention was that IP addresses without zones was intended. At a rou= gh > count, of the published RFC YANG models at github > YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: > > 86 uses of ip-address > > 68 uses of ipv4-address > > 66 uses of ipv6-address > > > > 1 use of ip-address-no-zone > > 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone > > 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone > > > > These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in RFCs. > At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may appear in > 40-50 RFCs. > > > > As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the > OpenConfig YANG modules: > > They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone > information and have defined separate types include zone information. > > There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP > addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, > approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the > ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory > some of those 58 entries could still intentionally be supporting zoned IP > addresses, but I would expect that the vast majority would not. > > I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the > same way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have g= ot > the definition right. > > > > I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address definition > is effectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to > implement it. I don't find that argument compelling, at least not with t= he > current definition of ip-address in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference > between a type defined with an incomplete regex that may allow some inval= id > values and a type that is explicitly defined to included additional value= s > in the allowable value space. Further, I believe that a client just > looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that implemen= ts > a data node using ip-address would be expected to support IP zones, where > they are meaningful, or otherwise they should deviate that data node to > indicate that they don't conform to the model. > > > > We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. They > are not going to start writing code to support zones just because they ar= e > in the model. They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone information= . > Perhaps some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, but probably mo= st > won't. > > > > The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel at > all appealing. This would take a significant amount of time/effort and I > think that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do this. > Although errata could be used to point out the bug, then can't be used to > fix it, all the errata would be "hold for document update" at best. > Further, during the time that it would take us to fix it, it is plausible > that more incorrect usages of ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps > could be policed via scripted checks/warnings). > > > > > > I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state > where the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to mean, > i.e., excluding zone information. > > > > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change t= o > the new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a possib= le > path that gains wider consensus: > > > > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and > keep the -no-zone versions. > > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > > - Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations > are unlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the > description of the type more accurately reflects reality). > > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where zone= d > IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address with the > intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to > ip-address-with-zone. > > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), the > expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to match tha= t > of ip-address-no-zone. > > > > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the > definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the > "-no-zone" version at the same time. > > > > My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to > migrate. > > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it > aligns to the OC definition). > > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an NB= C > change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change (impo= rt > revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). > > > > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable > consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with i= t. > > > > Regards, > > Rob > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: netmod On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 > > > To: Christian Hopps > > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa- > > > yang-10.txt > > > > > > Hi - > > > > > > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > > .. > > > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that > > > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused > > > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in > > > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's point)= . > So, > > > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the A= D > in > > > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. > > > > > > That's not the impression one gets from modules like > > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt > > > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is willing > > > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of > > > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - > > > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the > > > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so > > > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually > > > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > netmod mailing list > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000363f0a05dc7135db Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 12:26 AM Mart= in Bj=C3=B6rklund <mbj+ietf@4668.s= e> wrote:
Hi,

Here's another suggestion.=C2=A0 We keep the ip-address pattern as is, = but
document in the description that implementations do not have to
support the optional zone index.=C2=A0 This would essentially document the<= br> behavior of most current implementations.=C2=A0 (This is actually what I suggested in the earliest thread on this topic that I could find:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org= /arch/msg/netmod/KjHGtPqm9D4Q-fRb2hVsf4sPuCU)




The point of the 2 year= warning is to allow anybody using ip-address
and really wants a = zone index to move to the (new) ip-address-with-zone=C2=A0typedef instead.<= /div>
It has yet to be shown that this subset is not empty.
<= br>
This is better than making an NBC change with no warning.
If people did not bother to read the typedef, why would they read th= e warning?
This is also true, but no different than C programmers= who ignore gcc warnings.

Is the NBC change needed= at all? Maybe not.
It would be better in the long term to align = with OpenConfig and with 99 - 100%
of the implementations. The st= andards are a means to an end. Nothing more.
If 99 - 100% of the = implementations are already doing what is needed,
then it would b= e a bad idea to disrupt that for the sake of standards purity.


/martin

Andy
=C2=A0


"Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wr= ote:
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for the comments on this thread so far.=C2=A0 It would be nice = if we are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution.
>
> I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the= v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has bee= n given to the unusual variant of including zone information.
>
> Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me that = most of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and th= e intention was that IP addresses without zones was intended.=C2=A0 At a ro= ugh count, of the published RFC YANG models at github YangModels/standard/i= etf/RFC/ to be:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A086 uses of ip-address
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A068 uses of ipv4-address
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A066 uses of ipv6-address
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01 use of ip-address-no-zone
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone
>
> These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in RFCs= .=C2=A0 At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may appe= ar in 40-50 RFCs.
>
> As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the OpenCo= nfig YANG modules:
> They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone in= formation and have defined separate types include zone information.
> There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenC= onfig IP addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository.=C2=A0 Howeve= r, approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the ietf-inet= -types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory some of th= ose 58 entries could still intentionally be supporting zoned IP addresses, = but I would expect that the vast majority would not.
> I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the s= ame way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have got = the definition right.
>
> I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address definition= is effectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to imp= lement it.=C2=A0 I don't find that argument compelling, at least not wi= th the current definition of ip-address in RFC 6991.=C2=A0 I see a clear di= fference between a type defined with an incomplete regex that may allow som= e invalid values and a type that is explicitly defined to included addition= al values in the allowable value space.=C2=A0 Further, I believe that a cli= ent just looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that i= mplements a data node using ip-address would be expected to support IP zone= s, where they are meaningful, or otherwise they should deviate that data no= de to indicate that they don't conform to the model.
>
> We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do.=C2=A0= They are not going to start writing code to support zones just because the= y are in the model.=C2=A0 They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone in= formation.=C2=A0 Perhaps some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, = but probably most won't.
>
> The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't fe= el at all appealing.=C2=A0 This would take a significant amount of time/eff= ort and I think that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do t= his.=C2=A0 Although errata could be used to point out the bug, then can'= ;t be used to fix it, all the errata would be "hold for document updat= e" at best.=C2=A0 Further, during the time that it would take us to fi= x it, it is plausible that more incorrect usages of ip-address will likely = occur (but perhaps could be policed via scripted checks/warnings).
>
>
> I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state wh= ere the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to m= ean, i.e., excluding zone information.
>
> Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change = to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a possi= ble path that gains wider consensus:
>
> (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we:
> (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and= keep the -no-zone versions.
> (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate:<= br> > - Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations = are unlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the des= cription of the type more accurately reflects reality).
> - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where zon= ed IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address with th= e intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to ip-address-wit= h-zone.
> - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), th= e expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to match tha= t of ip-address-no-zone.
>
> (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the de= finition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the "= -no-zone" version at the same time.
>
> My reasoning as to why to take this path is:
> (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to= migrate.
> (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it= aligns to the OC definition).
> (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs.
> (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an N= BC change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change (imp= ort revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison).
>
> I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable c= onsensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with it.<= br> >
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
> > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59
> > To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
> > Cc: lsr@ietf.or= g; netmod@ietf.org=
> > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-ext= ended-lsa-
> > yang-10.txt
> >
> > Hi -
> >
> > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote:
> > ..
> > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is = asserting that
> > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been m= isused
> > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementation= s in
> > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (An= dy's point). So,
> > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note tha= t the AD in
> > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well.
> >
> > That's not the impression one gets from modules like
> > https://www.ietf.org/archi= ve/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt
> > which employs both types.=C2=A0 So, regardless of whether one is = willing
> > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a m= atter of
> > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage -
> > it clearly would.=C2=A0 Furthermore, my recollection is that the<= br> > > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was nee= ded, so
> > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually<= br> > > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false pre= mise.
> >
> > Randy
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > netmod mailing list
> > netmod@ietf.= org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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07:44:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1649774679; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=yCa2u0S6tpypSXWlsq3vJlGBo/zd0p1XCckbA+4nPS0=; b=NWK6Ixeb6c3L3jKZOCzKYpOqMbD9usAqpWRFbkri/15JGXhTqQBLf3PbfbfROiNj jroKvXzLkm72oHLjAt1Fnq9pwOf5hBYSAGCpijSkkX9w2vNru/mjKlUjsYhVBOcp5r8 kuFFdDXxqzO1TU0wCOZc3oOCsFbjUp4p24EYS6FU= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <010001801e3bd325-80cdfee9-a7d3-4019-a393-273d15605385-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EF7A9644-99C6-453A-B57A-F98DC556A5F6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:44:38 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20220412070222.bkc5bhby4c2n32bs@anna> Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder References: <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> <20220412070222.bkc5bhby4c2n32bs@anna> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.04.12-54.240.8.96 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:44:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EF7A9644-99C6-453A-B57A-F98DC556A5F6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > For me, the only sensible option (other than accepting that types are > named the way they are) is to introduce ip-address-with-zone and to > deprecate ip-address and stop there. Yes, this means coexistance of > inet:ip-address and ip-address-with-zone until YANG is getting > replaced. As a contributor, this seems to be the most reasonable "by the rules" = option. There's nothing wrong with introducing a more-explicit label = and deprecating a less-explicit label. Having more explicit labels = seems to be general goodness (e.g., more readable tree-diagrams) while = not impacting CLI usability. Deprecating less-explicit labels enables = tooling to move existing non-explicit label uses to the more-explicit = labels. =20 It is easy to empathize with those seeing this as a bug-fix, but there's = no clean way to assume a particular definition is what was universally = intended and used. It's additionally difficult to support an approach = that breaks the rules that we are charged to defend. Level-upping, is there any takeaway modeling advice coming out of this? = There's a historical trend to define base types with a broad value-space = assuming uses will refine the value space as needed. This trend seems = well-reasoned, and yet here we are. Should there be advice indicating = that if a value space is faceted, a union of more-explicit types is = better (e.g., inet:host)? If there is a type that is the union of = "-with-zone" and "-without-zone", would it better to call it = "ip-address-with-or-without-zone" or just "ip-address"? [PS: I'm = assuming that -with-zone" requires a zone, i.e., it's not optional] PS: As a chair, consensus seems elusive. Roughly 10 people have = provided opinions with a nearly 50/50 split between the "follow the = rules" and "do what's 'right'" camps. K.= --Apple-Mail=_EF7A9644-99C6-453A-B57A-F98DC556A5F6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

For me, the = only sensible option (other than accepting that types are
named the way they are) is to = introduce ip-address-with-zone and to
deprecate ip-address and stop there. Yes, this means = coexistance of
inet:ip-address and ip-address-with-zone until YANG is = getting
replaced.

As a contributor, this seems to be the most = reasonable "by the rules" option.  There's nothing wrong with = introducing a more-explicit label and deprecating a less-explicit label. =   Having more explicit labels seems to be general goodness (e.g., = more readable tree-diagrams) while not impacting CLI usability. =  Deprecating less-explicit labels enables tooling to move = existing non-explicit label uses to the more-explicit labels. =  

It= is easy to empathize with those seeing this as a bug-fix, but there's = no clean way to assume a particular definition is what was universally = intended and used.  It's additionally difficult to support an approach that breaks the rules that we = are charged to defend.

Level-upping, is there any takeaway modeling advice = coming out of this?  There's a historical trend to define base = types with a broad value-space assuming uses will refine the = value space as needed.  This trend seems well-reasoned, and yet = here we are. Should there be advice indicating that if a value = space is faceted, a union of more-explicit types is better = (e.g., inet:host)?  If there is a type that is the union = of "-with-zone" and "-without-zone", would it better to call it = "ip-address-with-or-without-zone" or just "ip-address"?  [PS: I'm = assuming that -with-zone" requires a zone, i.e., it's not = optional]

PS: As a chair, consensus seems elusive.   Roughly 10 = people have provided opinions with a nearly 50/50 split between the = "follow the rules" and "do what's 'right'" camps.
K.
= --Apple-Mail=_EF7A9644-99C6-453A-B57A-F98DC556A5F6-- From nobody Tue Apr 12 07:47:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBCE03A12A7; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:47:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qLeiOqcXHHmY; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDC8A3A1284; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Kd7qJ4D93z1p5rF; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:47:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1649774844; bh=Aroxg7AI2pde0m3HVJvUhO6sOCkH+mznkyeX7MnE/iE=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=MwkYWRpcDZSKf38ZkMqznSLEV4ts0uh00GJBZXTRqcQxiwDMaUN0Z3J9SwvYTCuoM 5D2ps1Obc9xEru7dF9zRajr4V/e1zlQa8Mj4oxKE3Uair5hCjpjoLPb37ygFIP51/O jSDVtEk/zVrALLFucWIxCLsHv5HaONziSmfGImPE= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.21.218] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Kd7qH6xw8z1nsZJ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1a5b93a9-4ffd-eb56-2b41-6ccc26b2e22d@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 10:47:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:47:30 -0000 Juergen posted an example of where ip-address is used and zones are expected. Yours, Joel On 4/12/2022 9:24 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Joel, > > There are plenty of examples of where the ip-address types are used and a zone is not accepted. Show me the examples where it is expected? I do have reason to believe there aren't any significant usages of the ip-address types where zone is accepted. Show me the models!!!! > > Acee > > On 4/11/22, 1:44 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Joel M. Halpern" wrote: > > Do we have reason to believe that no one outside the IETF has used > ip-address as we published in ways that need a zone? > > It seems to me that the first step in the plan below is reasonable. But > changing ip-address itself seems a bad idea. If one means no-zone, use > the -no-zone typedef. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 4/11/2022 1:28 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 10:07 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > > > > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if > > we are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. > > > > I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and > > the v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type > > name has been given to the unusual variant of including zone > > information. > > > > Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me > > that most of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be > > wrong, and the intention was that IP addresses without zones was > > intended. At a rough count, of the published RFC YANG models at > > github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: > > 86 uses of ip-address > > 68 uses of ipv4-address > > 66 uses of ipv6-address > > > > 1 use of ip-address-no-zone > > 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone > > 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone > > > > These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in > > RFCs. At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules > > may appear in 40-50 RFCs. > > > > As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the > > OpenConfig YANG modules: > > They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone > > information and have defined separate types include zone information. > > There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP > > addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, > > approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the > > ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in > > theory some of those 58 entries could still intentionally be > > supporting zoned IP addresses, but I would expect that the vast > > majority would not. > > I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the > > same way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks > > have got the definition right. > > > > I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address > > definition is effectively optional, and implementations are not > > really obliged to implement it. I don't find that argument > > compelling, at least not with the current definition of ip-address > > in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference between a type defined with > > an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values and a type > > that is explicitly defined to included additional values in the > > allowable value space. Further, I believe that a client just > > looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that > > implements a data node using ip-address would be expected to support > > IP zones, where they are meaningful, or otherwise they should > > deviate that data node to indicate that they don't conform to the model. > > > > We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. > > They are not going to start writing code to support zones just > > because they are in the model. They will mostly reject IP addresses > > with zone information. Perhaps some will deviate the type to > > ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't. > > > > The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel > > at all appealing. This would take a significant amount of > > time/effort and I think that we will struggle to find folks who are > > willing to do this. Although errata could be used to point out the > > bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the errata would be "hold for > > document update" at best. Further, during the time that it would > > take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrect usages of > > ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed via > > scripted checks/warnings). > > > > > > I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state > > where the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to > > mean, i.e., excluding zone information. > > > > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible > > change to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following > > might be a possible path that gains wider consensus: > > > > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) > > and keep the -no-zone versions. > > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > > - Although the type allows for zone information, many > > implementations are unlikely to accept zone information in most > > scenarios (i.e., so the description of the type more accurately > > reflects reality). > > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where > > zoned IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use > > ip-address with the intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST > > migrate to ip-address-with-zone. > > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), > > the expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to > > match that of ip-address-no-zone. > > > > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the > > definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate > > the "-no-zone" version at the same time. > > > > My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time > > to migrate. > > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that > > it aligns to the OC definition). > > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an > > NBC change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this > > change (import revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). > > > > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable > > consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live > > with it. > > > > > > > > This is a very thoughtful proposal. Looks good to me. > > > > It does introduce a window in which some new modules might start using > > 'ip-address-no-zone'. > > Should they wait for the real 'ip-address' in 2 more years or just use > > 'ip-address-no-zone'? > > > > The leaf description-stmt using 'ip-address' should specify if any zone > > support is required. > > The default could be 'none' so no mention is needed most of the time. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > Rob > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: netmod > > On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 > > > To: Christian Hopps > > > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; netmod@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa- > > > yang-10.txt > > > > > > Hi - > > > > > > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > > .. > > > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that > > > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused > > > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in > > > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's > > point). So, > > > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that > > the AD in > > > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. > > > > > > That's not the impression one gets from modules like > > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt > > > > > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is willing > > > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of > > > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - > > > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the > > > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so > > > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually > > > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > netmod mailing list > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > From nobody Tue Apr 12 07:52:56 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1763A160B; 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Tue, 12 Apr 2022 10:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 16:52:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20220412.165241.437451577319155573.id@4668.se> To: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Cc: rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rklund?= In-Reply-To: <20220412070222.bkc5bhby4c2n32bs@anna> References: <20220412070222.bkc5bhby4c2n32bs@anna> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:52:54 -0000 J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder wrote: [...] > For me, the only sensible option (other than accepting that types are= > named the way they are) is to introduce ip-address-with-zone and to > deprecate ip-address and stop there. Yes, this means coexistance of > inet:ip-address and ip-address-with-zone until YANG is getting > replaced. But then what would you do with inet:host? /martin From nobody Tue Apr 12 07:54:15 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC9E3A1711 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:54:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xcV6pTaZJDjD for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) 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Qin Wu To: =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBMZW5neWVs?= , =?utf-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 Thread-Index: AdhOeZP04e9PXI39QhupbtajNNaLzg== Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:53:56 +0000 Message-ID: <7bacf3e79dce46579ab6318de8f1f502@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.100.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:54:07 -0000 SGksIEJhbGF6czoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgeW91ciB2YWx1YWJsZSBjb21tZW50cywgSSBoYXZlIGlu 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Halpern" wrote: > > Juergen posted an example of where ip-address is used and zones are > expected. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 4/12/2022 9:24 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > > Joel, > > > > There are plenty of examples of where the ip-address types are used and a zone is not accepted. Show me the examples where it is expected? I do have reason to believe there aren't any significant usages of the ip-address types where zone is accepted. Show me the models!!!! > > > > Acee > > > > On 4/11/22, 1:44 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Joel M. Halpern" wrote: > > > > Do we have reason to believe that no one outside the IETF has used > > ip-address as we published in ways that need a zone? > > > > It seems to me that the first step in the plan below is reasonable. But > > changing ip-address itself seems a bad idea. If one means no-zone, use > > the -no-zone typedef. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 4/11/2022 1:28 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 10:07 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if > > > we are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. > > > > > > I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and > > > the v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type > > > name has been given to the unusual variant of including zone > > > information. > > > > > > Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me > > > that most of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be > > > wrong, and the intention was that IP addresses without zones was > > > intended. At a rough count, of the published RFC YANG models at > > > github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: > > > 86 uses of ip-address > > > 68 uses of ipv4-address > > > 66 uses of ipv6-address > > > > > > 1 use of ip-address-no-zone > > > 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone > > > 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone > > > > > > These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in > > > RFCs. At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules > > > may appear in 40-50 RFCs. > > > > > > As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the > > > OpenConfig YANG modules: > > > They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone > > > information and have defined separate types include zone information. > > > There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP > > > addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, > > > approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the > > > ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in > > > theory some of those 58 entries could still intentionally be > > > supporting zoned IP addresses, but I would expect that the vast > > > majority would not. > > > I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the > > > same way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks > > > have got the definition right. > > > > > > I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address > > > definition is effectively optional, and implementations are not > > > really obliged to implement it. I don't find that argument > > > compelling, at least not with the current definition of ip-address > > > in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference between a type defined with > > > an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values and a type > > > that is explicitly defined to included additional values in the > > > allowable value space. Further, I believe that a client just > > > looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that > > > implements a data node using ip-address would be expected to support > > > IP zones, where they are meaningful, or otherwise they should > > > deviate that data node to indicate that they don't conform to the model. > > > > > > We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. > > > They are not going to start writing code to support zones just > > > because they are in the model. They will mostly reject IP addresses > > > with zone information. Perhaps some will deviate the type to > > > ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't. > > > > > > The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel > > > at all appealing. This would take a significant amount of > > > time/effort and I think that we will struggle to find folks who are > > > willing to do this. Although errata could be used to point out the > > > bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the errata would be "hold for > > > document update" at best. Further, during the time that it would > > > take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrect usages of > > > ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed via > > > scripted checks/warnings). > > > > > > > > > I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state > > > where the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to > > > mean, i.e., excluding zone information. > > > > > > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible > > > change to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following > > > might be a possible path that gains wider consensus: > > > > > > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > > > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) > > > and keep the -no-zone versions. > > > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > > > - Although the type allows for zone information, many > > > implementations are unlikely to accept zone information in most > > > scenarios (i.e., so the description of the type more accurately > > > reflects reality). > > > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where > > > zoned IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use > > > ip-address with the intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST > > > migrate to ip-address-with-zone. > > > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), > > > the expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to > > > match that of ip-address-no-zone. > > > > > > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the > > > definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate > > > the "-no-zone" version at the same time. > > > > > > My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > > > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time > > > to migrate. > > > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that > > > it aligns to the OC definition). > > > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > > > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an > > > NBC change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this > > > change (import revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). > > > > > > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable > > > consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live > > > with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a very thoughtful proposal. Looks good to me. > > > > > > It does introduce a window in which some new modules might start using > > > 'ip-address-no-zone'. > > > Should they wait for the real 'ip-address' in 2 more years or just use > > > 'ip-address-no-zone'? > > > > > > The leaf description-stmt using 'ip-address' should specify if any zone > > > support is required. > > > The default could be 'none' so no mention is needed most of the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: netmod > > > On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > > > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 > > > > To: Christian Hopps > > > > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; netmod@ietf.org > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > > > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa- > > > > yang-10.txt > > > > > > > > Hi - > > > > > > > > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > > > .. > > > > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that > > > > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused > > > > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in > > > > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's > > > point). So, > > > > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that > > > the AD in > > > > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. > > > > > > > > That's not the impression one gets from modules like > > > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt > > > > > > > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is willing > > > > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of > > > > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - > > > > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the > > > > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so > > > > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually > > > > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. > > > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > netmod mailing list > > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > netmod mailing list > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > netmod mailing list > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lsr mailing list > > Lsr@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Apr 12 08:11:01 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A52633A172F; 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DwXIQUTWNJyAUIPTHs4mNOLJ/08mfBG62u34LJ+6dvDbCIhqT82tOmVGTlrIKozUdLhCXkSlOS91Z4zK7km9efFtUe5AhDZJYg/FmA0ywkE= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6P190MB0567 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 15:18:33 -0000 On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 04:52:41PM +0200, Martin Björklund wrote: > Jürgen Schönwälder wrote: > > [...] > > > For me, the only sensible option (other than accepting that types are > > named the way they are) is to introduce ip-address-with-zone and to > > deprecate ip-address and stop there. Yes, this means coexistance of > > inet:ip-address and ip-address-with-zone until YANG is getting > > replaced. > > But then what would you do with inet:host? > I would define ip-address-with-zone to be the same as ip-address (i.e., with an optional zone index) and then I would then use ip-address-with-zone instead of ip-address in inet:host (like we are all going to replace the deprecated ip-address with either ip-address-with-zone or ip-address-no-zone in all modules in the future to avoid depending on a deprecated definition). It does not make sense to me to have a type mandating a zone since on all systems I know of the zone index shows up only when needed (and creating yet another union seems overkill). /js PS: I guess someone will propose to use ip-address-opt-zone instead ip-address-with-zone. ;-) -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Apr 12 08:27:18 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82CE63A0923 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 08:27:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] 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System level tools these days do this well as do an increasing number of server configurations files. On Debian 11.3, you can ping, ssh, nc, ... to 'fe80::c101:c4e0:aab5:5a04%vlan5'. You can put a link-local IP address with a zone index into your /etc/resolv.conf. In YANG, the equivalent is in RFC 7317: +--rw system +--rw dns-resolver +--rw search* inet:domain-name +--rw server* [name] | +--rw name string | +--rw (transport) | +--:(udp-and-tcp) | +--udp-and-tcp | +--rw address inet:ip-address | +--rw port? inet:port-number +--rw options +--rw timeout? uint8 +--rw attempts? uint8 The intention 10+ years ago was to provide a type that enables authors to write YANG data models that can be used with addresses that require a zone index. At that time, system level tools hardly got this done right or consistently. System level tools have improved. Perhaps it takes some additional tim for YANG implementations to follow on. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Apr 12 08:57:35 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3F93A0E67 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 08:57:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QQ1aGOGYRioA 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<5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> <20220412070222.bkc5bhby4c2n32bs@anna> <010001801e3bd325-80cdfee9-a7d3-4019-a393-273d15605385-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <010001801e3bd325-80cdfee9-a7d3-4019-a393-273d15605385-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:18:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b1283e05dc79175a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:18:57 -0000 --000000000000b1283e05dc79175a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 7:45 AM Kent Watsen wrote: > > > For me, the only sensible option (other than accepting that types are > named the way they are) is to introduce ip-address-with-zone and to > deprecate ip-address and stop there. Yes, this means coexistance of > inet:ip-address and ip-address-with-zone until YANG is getting > replaced. > > > As a contributor, this seems to be the most reasonable "by the rules" > option. There's nothing wrong with introducing a more-explicit label and > deprecating a less-explicit label. Having more explicit labels seems to > be general goodness (e.g., more readable tree-diagrams) while not impacting > CLI usability. Deprecating less-explicit labels enables tooling to move > existing non-explicit label uses to the more-explicit labels. > > It is easy to empathize with those seeing this as a bug-fix, but there's > no clean way to assume a particular definition is what was universally > intended and used. It's additionally difficult to support an approach > that breaks the rules that we are charged to defend. > > Level-upping, is there any takeaway modeling advice coming out of this? > There's a historical trend to define base types with a > broad value-space assuming uses will refine the value space as needed. > This trend seems well-reasoned, and yet here we are. Should there be advice > indicating that if a value space is faceted, a union of more-explicit types > is better (e.g., inet:host)? If there is a type that is the union of > "-with-zone" and "-without-zone", would it better to call it > "ip-address-with-or-without-zone" or just "ip-address"? [PS: I'm assuming > that -with-zone" requires a zone, i.e., it's not optional] > > PS: As a chair, consensus seems elusive. Roughly 10 people have provided > opinions with a nearly 50/50 split between the "follow the rules" and "do > what's 'right'" camps. > > One extreme is to say "the typedef says what it is. Too bad you have to rewrite 100s of YANG modules." The other extreme is to say "Nobody supports the zone index, so change the typedef to match what the users actually want, right now." The middle ground is to say "Nobody is reporting a bug that their client is setting a zone index and our server is doing the wrong thing, so there is no real problem to solve here". The compromise is to say "You have 2 years to change to a new typedef if you really need a zone index." Perhaps nobody is right. Perhaps there is only a least worst solution and no good solution. There is not enough objective criteria to pick the best one. > K. > Andy _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000b1283e05dc79175a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 7:45 AM Kent = Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net> wrote:


For me, the only s= ensible option (other than accepting that types are
named the way they are) = is to introduce ip-address-with-zone and to
deprecate ip-address and stop th= ere. Yes, this means coexistance of
inet:ip-address and ip-address-with-zo= ne until YANG is getting
replaced.

As a contributor, this seems to be the most reasonable &= quot;by the rules" option.=C2=A0 There's nothing wrong with introd= ucing a more-explicit label and deprecating a less-explicit label. =C2=A0 H= aving more explicit labels seems to be general goodness (e.g., more readabl= e tree-diagrams) while not impacting CLI usability.=C2=A0 Deprecating less-= explicit labels enables tooling to move ex= isting non-explicit label uses to the more-explicit labels. =C2=A0

It is easy to empathize with those seeing this as a= bug-fix, but there's no clean way to assume a particular definition is= what was universally intended and used.=C2=A0 It's additionally diffic= ult=C2=A0to support an approach that break= s the rules that we are charged to defend.

= Level-upping, is there any takeaway=C2=A0modeling a= dvice coming out of this?=C2=A0 There's a historical=C2=A0trend to defi= ne base types with a broad=C2=A0value-space=C2=A0assuming uses will refine = the value space as needed.=C2=A0 This trend seems well-reasoned, and yet he= re we are.=C2=A0Should there be=C2=A0advice indicating that if a value spac= e is faceted, a union of=C2=A0more-explicit types is=C2=A0better (e.g.,=C2= =A0inet:host)?=C2=A0 If there is a type=C2=A0that is the union of "-wi= th-zone" and "-without-zone", would it better to call it &qu= ot;ip-address-with-or-without-zone" or just "ip-address"? = =C2=A0[PS: I'm assuming that -with-zone"=C2=A0requires a zone, i.e= ., it's not optional]

PS: As a chair, c= onsensus seems elusive. =C2=A0 Roughly 10 people have provided opinions wit= h a nearly 50/50 split between the "follow the rules" and "d= o what's 'right'" camps.


One extreme is to say "the typedef says what= it is. Too bad you have to rewrite 100s of YANG modules."
<= br>
The other extreme is to say "Nobody supports the zone in= dex, so change the typedef to match
what the users actually want,= =C2=A0right now."

The middle ground is to say= "Nobody is reporting a bug that their client is setting a zone index<= /div>
and our server is doing the wrong thing, so there is no real prob= lem to solve here".

The compromise is to say = "You have 2 years to change to a new typedef if you
really n= eed a zone index."

 --000000000000b1283e05dc79175a-- From nobody Tue Apr 12 14:36:05 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C38313A0D52 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:36:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MAY_BE_FORGED=1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tVcGEWkYHfRw for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AEED3A0D43 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 23CLZsXu020613; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:35:54 +0100 Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id D498B4604B; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:35:53 +0100 (BST) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id B57F646048; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:35:53 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:35:53 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (205.197.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net [81.174.197.205] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 23CLZqbn020258 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:35:53 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Kent Watsen'" , References: <010001800a5e2c26-2e2cf494-8657-48b0-86fa-cb793050c4e0-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <010001800a5e2c26-2e2cf494-8657-48b0-86fa-cb793050c4e0-000000@email.amazonses.com> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:35:51 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <098d01d84eb5$487cdfa0$d9769ee0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_098E_01D84EBD.AA434370" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHlgK6Ux9VOs3yMwyJdztM0+BS1JazSZjmA Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 81.174.197.205 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2090-9.0.0.1000-26830.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--25.979-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--25.979-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2090-9.0.1000-26830.003 X-TMASE-Result: 10--25.979000-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: OoEa6u7Uk5/uYusHgJkgyurla4utTYrfbzbO+xeJyFr7aNbzHVUcUSoL z3n0VGhoJidyd6lCJT6ojsVP+osNyMQ4mpKyfkqZT5ysQDj6eFmlCu6kKVgvEodYwzPgNbi64zz Fe1SL0lZAy6bko7xP9AaE9UbCZqwFCKKJ1/F/gpk6En2bnefhoH4kkcJt7jDeee+psuSMY7rV5d 3ZfMyRxoPZI7HNMAzeYLmTo2ikrFgLwUwfdPoXvq7YaZ2V2aJQWQroCr5C0gWsSI0mH7EmmW6pt aMoFOTmoL3/QBLya4g0G3Bj2OuOLq5bb5QEYSkdaXmdXF2Ym8fIgofMgahPrTki5rYWRvvmVVcf 90vCk3JnvY9hxB9vcwZ8y9y+4MtW0e7jfBjhB8cBZBplMxI/zqMQi364g884cn0xufrhxdHKTIv 2DZ6fFZV0TmGPRot7lCU+7WfYOSO7LWwix27pUj0Ol1nHkdplyBXJN3+n78gUXKizhC4rwwmzBs ugEmrQJgOEB0SWYvkB7Yd/IV+LtoeAntdoMxBaGbJMFqqIm9zk++hGM2nSexhF3VkquVInfGzbg nVL75fBWWSsjxAj1PGU4m5A0eV96ws6Flw3FGJcsgu/IQFPzqI0l43T3wywwdw0ue2zGY1qC7TQ Ci+dYrageTvEOlNZdRKut3i8cK+yFmhU0AQsU4q5StNH1mEZtwi3bXRtaAgKT++EZ8cV5Pnt4xG zLGyHXUDv/QAV97tEXwnTCGfm3f0peXGEEBlvDvKSaIxu6kpXG3yI9k2vbCpYAmrFxIhiLkTtdg QKNN5Se6rq1H4K1f+z7xWvCPyPzH6d90mb4+Ih+cXdVp/Twpsoi2XrUn/JlR1cT9YafQV95l0nV eyiuD3qzHKAhsUY0CzDI0K7cAxXhqN9H2OPZ2F5X5yuwTohA/3R8k/14e0= X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 21:36:03 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_098E_01D84EBD.AA434370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I had previously provided a review of this document (at revision -04), and the authors worked to address my comments through the subsequent revisions. I have now re-read this document during WG last call. Most of my comments are nits, but there are a few suggestions of substance. Once these are all resolved the document will, in my opinion, be ready for publication. Best, Adrian ==== The document needs a note somewhere near the top. [RFC Editor Note: Please replace XXXX in the text with the RFC number assigned to this document, and remove this note.] --- Abstract s/characteristics/characteristic/ s/the module definition/the definition of the module/ --- Introduction s/represent a portion/represent only a portion/ OLD there is no consistent classification criteria or representation NEW there are no consistent classification criteria or representations END This document defines self-describing data object tags and associates them with data objects within a YANG module, which: I think that may be s/associates them/shows how they may be associated/ s/by the NETCONF/by a NETCONF/ --- 4. All data object tags SHOULD begin with a prefix indicating who owns their definition. An IANA registry (Section 9.1) is used to register data object tag prefixes. Initially, three prefixes are defined. I'm not sure who you are binding with this use of uppercase SHOULD or what variance you are allowing. I think you are probably giving instructions to the authors of future documents that define new tags (since the ones you define do all have a prefix - ietf:, vendor:, and user:). But the reason you have "SHOULD" not "MUST" is because of the text in 4.3 (and see below for a comment on that). So how about being more explicit with something like: All data object tags (except in some cases of user tags as described in Section 4.3) begin with a prefix indicating who owns their definition. An IANA registry (Section 9.1) is used to register data object tag prefixes. Initially, three prefixes are defined. --- 4.2 These tags are defined by the vendor that implements the module, and are not registered with IANA. However, it is RECOMMENDED that the vendor includes extra identification in the tag to avoid collisions, such as using the enterprise or organization name following the "vendor:" prefix (e.g., vendor:example.com:vendor-defined- classifier). I'm still not really happy with the disambiguation achieved using "the enterprise or organization name". There is no registry of enterprise or organisation names, so there is no way to be sure of uniqueness. But if you recommended the use of an enterprise number (possibly with the secondary prefix entno:) then things would be cleaner. This would also enable you to have an example that did not use a URN which is not really an example of an enterprise name or organization name. (There is an enterprise number reserved for documentation - 32743) --- 4.3 The ambiguity in this section needs to be sorted out. It's clear to me that you: - prefer user tags to have the prefix "user:" - you allow user tags without that prefix provided they do not contain a colon However, you have... A user tag is any tag that has the prefix "user:". For the avoidance of confusion, the colon (":") when it appears for the first time, is always assumed to be the separator between a prefix and the rest of the tag. And so, when a user tag does not have a prefix, it MUST NOT contain a colon. These tags are defined by a user/administrator and are not meant to be registered with IANA. Users are not required to use the "user:" prefix; however, doing so is RECOMMENDED as it helps avoid collisions. The first sentence defines a user tag to have the prefix "user:" which is then contradicted. Further, I don't think that there will be collisions because of the no-colon rule. Maybe this could be sorted out by replacing the text as: User tags are defined by a user/administrator and are not registered by IANA. Any tag with the prefix "user:" is a user tag. Furthermore, any tag that does not contain a colon (":", i.e., has no prefix) is also a user tag. Users are not required to use the "user:" prefix; however, doing so is RECOMMENDED. --- 4.4 conflicts with 4.3. That is, 4.3 says that tags can start without any of those three prefixes without being reserved. I don't think "reserved in the context of specifications" has a clear meaning. I think you need... 4.4. Reserved Prefixes Section 9.1 describes the IANA registry of tag prefixes. Any prefix not included in that registry is reserved for future use, but tags starting with such a prefix are still valid tags. --- 5.2 An implementation MAY include additional tags associated with data objects within a YANG module. These tags SHOULD be IETF (Section 4.1) or vendor tags (Section 4.2). The use of "SHOULD" is fine, but you need to give the alternative and the reason for choosing the alternative. --- 7. multi-source-tag s/'non-aggregated' multi-source/'non-aggregated' multi-source/ --- 8. This section updates [RFC8407]. A fine statement as far as it goes, but probably should say just a little more. Maybe, This section updates [RFC8407] by providing text that may be regarded as a new subsection to Section 4 of that document. It does not change anything already present in [RFC8407]. --- 8.1 s/Section Section 9.2/Section 9.2/ --- 9.1 This registry allocates tag prefixes. All YANG Data Object Tags should begin with one of the prefixes in this registry. That's not quite true, is it? --- 9.2 Figure 6 Table 2 There are some formatting errors in the Metric Type Tag part of the table. Also a couple of minor ones in Multiple Source Tag. --- OLD Appendix C. Targeted data object collection example NEW Appendix C. Targeted Data Object Collection Example END From: netmod On Behalf Of Kent Watsen Sent: 08 April 2022 19:10 To: netmod@ietf.org Subject: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 This message begins a Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06, per the chair-action from the 113 session (minutes ). The WGLC will close in two-weeks (Apr 22). Here is a direct link to the HTML version of the draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it is ready for publication", are welcome! This is useful and important, even from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also welcomed at this time. Please be aware that this draft has declared IPR indicating that license may entail possible royalty/fee. Also, this exchange between Lou and Qin on 8/30/2020 (mailman ): [Lou] Since this work is derived from work that I contributed to, I'd be interested in hearing what new mechanism(s) is/are covered by the IPR disclosure prior to supporting WG adoption. I'm not asking in order to debate this, as that is something for other venues, I'm merely asking that you state for the record what new mechanism is covered. [Qin] Thanks for asking, different from module level tag defined in draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags , this work provide data node level tag definition, use these data node level tag definition to provide hint or indication to selection filter in the YANG push and tell the collector or subscriber which specific category data objects needs to fetched. Kent (as co-chair) ------=_NextPart_000_098E_01D84EBD.AA434370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

I had = previously provided a review of this document (at revision = -04),

and the authors worked to address = my comments through the subsequent

revisions.

 

I have now = re-read this document during WG last call. Most of my =

comments are nits, but there are a = few suggestions of substance.

 

Once these = are all resolved the document will, in my opinion, = be

ready for = publication.

 

Best,

Adrian

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

The = document needs a note somewhere near the top.

 

[RFC Editor = Note: Please replace XXXX in the text with the RFC = number

assigned to this document, and = remove this note.]

 

---

 

Abstract

 

s/characteristics/characteristic/

s/the module definition/the = definition of the module/

 

---

 

Introduction

 

s/represent = a portion/represent only a portion/

 

OLD

   there is no consistent = classification criteria or

   = representation

NEW

   there are no = consistent classification criteria or

   = representations

END

 

   This document defines = self-describing data object tags and associates

   them with data objects = within a YANG module, which:

I think = that may be s/associates them/shows how they may be = associated/

 

s/by the = NETCONF/by a NETCONF/

 

---

 

4.

 

   All data object tags = SHOULD begin with a prefix indicating who owns

   their = definition.  An IANA registry (Section 9.1) is used to = register

   data object tag = prefixes.  Initially, three prefixes are = defined.

 

I'm not = sure who you are binding with this use of uppercase SHOULD = or

what variance you are = allowing.

 

I think you = are probably giving instructions to the authors of = future

documents that define new tags = (since the ones you define do all have

a prefix - = ietf:, vendor:, and user:).

 

But the = reason you have "SHOULD" not "MUST" is because of = the text in

4.3 (and see below for a comment on = that).

 

So how = about being more explicit with something like:

 

   All data object tags = (except in some cases of user tags as described

   in Section 4.3) begin = with a prefix indicating who owns their

   definition.  An = IANA registry (Section 9.1) is used to register = data

   object tag = prefixes.  Initially, three prefixes are = defined.

 

---

 

4.2

 

   These tags are defined = by the vendor that implements the module, and

   are not registered = with IANA.  However, it is RECOMMENDED that = the

   vendor includes extra = identification in the tag to avoid collisions,

   such as using the = enterprise or organization name following the

   "vendor:" = prefix (e.g., = vendor:example.com:vendor-defined-      &nb= sp; 

   classifier).<= /o:p>

 

I'm still = not really happy with the disambiguation achieved using = "the

enterprise or organization = name". There is no registry of enterprise or =

organisation names, so there is no = way to be sure of uniqueness. But if

you = recommended the use of an enterprise number (possibly with the =

secondary prefix entno:) then = things would be cleaner.

 

This would = also enable you to have an example that did not use a = URN

which is not really an example of = an enterprise name or organization

name. = (There is an enterprise number reserved for documentation - = 32743)

 

---

 

4.3

 

The = ambiguity in this section needs to be sorted out. It's clear to me =

that you:

- prefer = user tags to have the prefix "user:"

- you allow = user tags without that prefix provided they do not = contain

  a = colon

 

However, = you have...

 

   A user tag is any tag = that has the prefix "user:".  For the = avoidance

   of confusion, the = colon (":") when it appears for the first time, = is

   always assumed to be = the separator between a prefix and the rest of

   the tag.  And so, = when a user tag does not have a prefix, it MUST = NOT

   contain a = colon.

 

   These tags are defined = by a user/administrator and are not meant to

  =  be registered with IANA.  Users are not required to use the = "user:"

   prefix; however, doing = so is RECOMMENDED as it helps avoid

   = collisions.

 

The first = sentence defines a user tag to have the prefix "user:" = which

is then contradicted. Further, I = don't think that there will be

collisions = because of the no-colon rule.

 

Maybe this = could be sorted out by replacing the text as:

 

   User tags are defined = by a user/administrator and are not registered

   by IANA.   =

 

   Any tag with the = prefix "user:" is a user tag.  Furthermore, any =

   tag that does not = contain a colon (":", i.e., has no prefix) is = also

   a user tag.  = Users are not required to use the = "user:"

   prefix; however, doing = so is RECOMMENDED.

 

---

 

4.4 = conflicts with 4.3. That is, 4.3 says that tags can start = without

any of those three prefixes without = being reserved.

 

I don't = think "reserved in the context of specifications" has a = clear

meaning.

 

I think you = need...

 

4.4.  = Reserved Prefixes

 

   Section 9.1 describes = the IANA registry of tag prefixes.  Any = prefix

   not included in that = registry is reserved for future use, but tags

   starting with such a = prefix are still valid tags.

 

---

 

5.2

 

   An implementation MAY = include additional tags associated with data

   objects within a YANG = module.  These tags SHOULD be IETF

   (Section 4.1) or = vendor tags (Section 4.2).

 

The use of = "SHOULD" is fine, but you need to give the alternative = and

the reason for choosing the = alternative.

 

---

 

7. = multi-source-tag

 

s/'non-aggregated'  = multi-source/'non-aggregated' multi-source/

 

---

 

8.

 

   This section updates = [RFC8407].

 

A fine = statement as far as it goes, but probably should say just a =

little more. = Maybe,

 

   This section updates = [RFC8407] by providing text that may be

   regarded as a new = subsection to Section 4 of that document.  = It

   does not change = anything already present in [RFC8407].

 

---

 

8.1

 

s/Section = Section 9.2/Section 9.2/

 

---

 

9.1

 

   This registry = allocates tag prefixes.  All YANG Data Object = Tags

   should begin with one = of the prefixes in this registry.

 

That's not = quite true, is it?

 

---

 

9.2 Figure = 6 Table 2

 

There are = some formatting errors in the Metric Type Tag part of = the

table. Also a couple of minor ones = in Multiple Source Tag.

 

---

 

OLD

Appendix = C.  Targeted data object collection example

NEW

Appendix = C.  Targeted Data Object Collection Example

END

 

From: netmod = <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Kent = Watsen
Sent: 08 April 2022 19:10
To: = netmod@ietf.org
Subject: [netmod] WGLC on = draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06

 

This = message begins a Working Group Last Call (WGLC) = on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06, per the chair-action from the = 113 session (minutes).  The WGLC will close in two-weeks (Apr 22). =  Here is a direct link to the HTML = version of the draft:


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags

Positive comments, e.g., "I've = reviewed this document and believe it is ready for publication", = are welcome!  This is useful and important, even from authors. = Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also welcomed at this = time.

 

Please be aware that this draft has declared = IPR indicating that license may entail possible royalty/fee. = Also, this exchange between Lou and Qin on 8/30/2020 (mailman):

 

[Lou] Since this work is derived from work that I = contributed to, I'd be interested in hearing what new mechanism(s) = is/are covered by the IPR disclosure prior to supporting WG adoption. =  I'm not asking in order to debate this, as that is something = for other venues, I'm merely asking that you state for the = record what new mechanism is covered.

 

[Qin] Thanks for asking, different from module level = tag defined in draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags , this work provide = data node level tag definition, use these data node level tag definition = to provide hint or indication to selection filter in the YANG push = and tell the collector or subscriber which specific category data = objects needs to fetched.

 

 

Kent (as co-chair)

 

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I see no value in developing N use case specific mechanisms spread over several WGs. If this document is not aiming to provide a generic solution, then I believe it should not be published. /js On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 03:27:03PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > Hi, Jurgen: > I understand your comment, is to investigate more use cases and see how one mechanism can be generalized to cover more use cases. > But the idea of this draft is to capture characteristics data (e.g., KPI data ) using data node tag. Data node tag module can only convey enumerated tag valued defined in section 9.2, that is why Balazs clarify the essence of data nod tag are not metadata based on RFC7950 but data properties. > > I did investigate meta-data-collection draft. I think meta-data collection draft extends from ietf-system-capabilities module defined in RFC9196 while draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 extends from ietf-module-tags defined in RFC8819 > I believe observable-period related parameter in metadata-collection module is not suited to be redefined in Data node tag module since they are really system capability related parameters. > For three other parameters such as corresponding-mib-oid, related-node, optimized-measurement-point, not every data node has these three parameters, the value of corresponding-mib-oid, related-node can be any value it is hard to be listed as tag values, for optimized-measutement-point, it is empty type, it seem to fine, but add corresponding-mib-oid, related-node make data node tag module design very ugly, also the value of corresponding-mib-oid, related-node are read only value and can not be configured by the user. > module: ietf-data-node-tags > augment /tags:module-tags/tags:module: > +--rw data-node-tags > +--rw data-node* [ni-id] > +--rw ni-id nacm:node-instance-identifier > +--rw tag* tags:tag > +--rw masked-tag* tags:tag > +--rw corresponding-mib-oid? yang:object-identifier-128 > +--rw related-node? yang:node-instance-identifier > In addition, we may need to introduce new yang extension for these two parameters and consider to use when statement to decide when corresponding-mib-oid or related-node should not appear or otherwise, > I feel designing this kind of model is not generic. Please correct me if I am wrong. > > -Qin > -----邮件原件----- > 发件人: Jürgen Schönwälder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de] > 发送时间: 2022年4月11日 21:32 > 收件人: Qin Wu > 抄送: Kent Watsen ; netmod@ietf.org > 主题: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 > > It seems like we confuse use cases with mechanisms. We should IMHO focus on defining one mechanism to convey metadata and ideally that mechanism than supports multiple use cases. > > /js > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 01:14:08PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > > Hi, Jurgen: > > Thank for bringing this issue up. > > Generally, I feel two drafts are orthogonal to each other. > > Draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 focuses on YANG modelled data > > classification while draft-claise-netconf-metadata-for-collection-03 focuses on telemetry related server capability exposure, e.g., how frequent you can use YANG push mechanism to send the telemetry data, from where to collect the specific interested data, how to inform the client or collector when the server compute a new observable period, in other words, draft-claise-netconf-metadata-for-collection-03 more focuses on data collection protocol (e.g., yang push) related metadata. > > > > In addition, draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 doesn't need to depend on notification capability defined in RFC9196 since ietf-data-object-tags in draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 defines data objects list under /tags:module-tags/tags:module. Therefore the client can look for these tags from the , also can be used since yang extension is defined for these tags in the ietf-data-object-tags. > > > > Please correct me if I am wrong. > > > > -Qin > > -----邮件原件----- > > 发件人: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] 代表 Jürgen Sch?nw?lder > > 发送时间: 2022年4月11日 15:55 > > 收件人: Kent Watsen > > 抄送: netmod@ietf.org > > 主题: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 > > > > During the NETCONF meeting at IETF 113, Benoit presented an I-D titled > > > > Per-Node Capabilities for Optimum Operational Data Collection > > draft-claise-netconf-metadata-for-collection-03 > > > > and I asked why we need another metadata export mechanism given that node tags is been worked on in the NETMOD WG. The reaction during the meeting was to followup on the mailing list, i.e., there was no conclusive answer during the meeting. > > > > I suggest that this document does not proceed until we know that it provides all mechanisms needed to support the use case described in the above mentioned I-D. If any functionality is lacking, the WG may want to investigate whether this can be addressed generically. > > > > /js > > > > On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 06:09:45PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > This message begins a Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06, per the chair-action from the 113 session (minutes ). The WGLC will close in two-weeks (Apr 22). Here is a direct link to the HTML version of the draft: > > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags > > > > > > > > > Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it is ready for publication", are welcome! This is useful and important, even from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also welcomed at this time. > > > > > > Please be aware that this draft has declared IPR indicating that license may entail possible royalty/fee. Also, this exchange between Lou and Qin on 8/30/2020 (mailman ): > > > > > > [Lou] Since this work is derived from work that I contributed to, I'd be interested in hearing what new mechanism(s) is/are covered by the IPR disclosure prior to supporting WG adoption. I'm not asking in order to debate this, as that is something for other venues, I'm merely asking that you state for the record what new mechanism is covered. > > > > > > [Qin] Thanks for asking, different from module level tag defined in draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags , this work provide data node level tag definition, use these data node level tag definition to provide hint or indication to selection filter in the YANG push and tell the collector or subscriber which specific category data objects needs to fetched. > > > > > > > > > Kent (as co-chair) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > netmod mailing list > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > > > -- > > Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > -- > Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Apr 13 01:45:25 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460253A18C1; 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Wed, 13 Apr 2022 04:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 10:44:33 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20220413.104433.1880376159264359912.id@4668.se> To: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Cc: rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rklund?= In-Reply-To: <20220412151822.srsfeeua2raaeuna@anna> References: <20220412070222.bkc5bhby4c2n32bs@anna> <20220412.165241.437451577319155573.id@4668.se> <20220412151822.srsfeeua2raaeuna@anna> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 08:44:52 -0000 J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder wrote: > On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 04:52:41PM +0200, Martin Bj=F6rklund wrote: > > J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder wro= te: > > = > > [...] > > = > > > For me, the only sensible option (other than accepting that types= are > > > named the way they are) is to introduce ip-address-with-zone and = to > > > deprecate ip-address and stop there. Yes, this means coexistance = of > > > inet:ip-address and ip-address-with-zone until YANG is getting > > > replaced. > > = > > But then what would you do with inet:host? > > > = > I would define ip-address-with-zone to be the same as ip-address > (i.e., with an optional zone index) and then I would then use > ip-address-with-zone instead of ip-address in inet:host (like we are > all going to replace the deprecated ip-address with either > ip-address-with-zone or ip-address-no-zone in all modules in the > future to avoid depending on a deprecated definition). But if people believe that we have a big problem that ip-address may contain a zone index, don't we have the same problem w/ inet:host? Don't we have to deprecate also inet:host for the same reason? (To be clear: Personally, I do not think that deprecating these typedefs is the best solution) = > It does not make sense to me to have a type mandating a zone since on= > all systems I know of the zone index shows up only when needed (and > creating yet another union seems overkill). Did anyone suggest this? I thought ip-address-with-zone was supposed t= o be exactly what ip-address is today. /martin > = > /js > = > PS: I guess someone will propose to use ip-address-opt-zone instead > ip-address-with-zone. ;-) > = > -- = > J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German= y > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Apr 13 02:13:43 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90DE03A07C1 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 02:13:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uOYJA7wlI8TD for ; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: abdcd8c8-f5b4-4290-8ac3-08da1d2dde33 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Apr 2022 09:13:26.3594 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: MC65g1pvA8Wgbqg94cot1MC9J/xsTWFsJnYKTHzpYbtPVjzXwM7jUvEgXxDQ1dNWQzCD0HoAjFWVlYIwqWmd0A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB5280 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:13:42 -0000 From: netmod on behalf of Randy Presuhn =0A= Sent: 11 April 2022 19:09=0A= =0A= Hi -=0A= =0A= On 2022-04-11 10:43 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote:=0A= > Do we have reason to believe that no one outside the IETF has used=0A= > ip-address as we published in ways that need a zone?=0A= =0A= It seems like wishful thinking. There's really no way to verify that=0A= no one anywhere has used the specification as it was intended.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= As I said before, there is at least one YANG module author in the IETF who = used ip-address and wants the zone option that it provides. I know this be= cause I commented on an I-D, asking if the zone option was really what they= wanted and they said 'Yes'.=0A= =0A= Of course, a pedant might say that they did not know what they were doing u= ntil that was pointed out to them but repeated statements from various peo= ple to the effect that no-one wants a zone are false.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= p.s. likely a search of the mail archives for posts by me to any IETF list = in the past two years containing the text 'no-zone' could identify the auth= or in question but that is a lot of searching:-( As pointed out earlier, M= LDP is a possible candidate.=0A= =0A= =0A= > It seems to me that the first step in the plan below is reasonable. But= =0A= =0A= Agreed.=0A= =0A= > changing ip-address itself seems a bad idea. If one means no-zone, use= =0A= > the -no-zone typedef.=0A= =0A= I'd go further. There are at least two bad ideas in the second step:=0A= (1) the incompatible change to ip-address=0A= (2) the deprecation of ip-address-no-zone, which would trigger=0A= maintenance headaches for everyone who used that type=0A= correctly in the first place.=0A= =0A= Hoping that Yang versioning would be able to paper over the=0A= resulting mess strikes me as overly optimistic.=0A= =0A= Randy=0A= =0A= > Yours,=0A= > Joel=0A= >=0A= > On 4/11/2022 1:28 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 10:07 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton)=0A= >> > > wrote:=0A= >>=0A= >> Hi all,=0A= >>=0A= >> Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if= =0A= >> we are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution.= =0A= >>=0A= >> I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and= =0A= >> the v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type=0A= >> name has been given to the unusual variant of including zone=0A= >> information.=0A= >>=0A= >> Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me=0A= >> that most of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be= =0A= >> wrong, and the intention was that IP addresses without zones was=0A= >> intended. At a rough count, of the published RFC YANG models at=0A= >> github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be:=0A= >> 86 uses of ip-address=0A= >> 68 uses of ipv4-address=0A= >> 66 uses of ipv6-address=0A= >>=0A= >> 1 use of ip-address-no-zone=0A= >> 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone=0A= >> 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone=0A= >>=0A= >> These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in=0A= >> RFCs. At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules=0A= >> may appear in 40-50 RFCs.=0A= >>=0A= >> As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the=0A= >> OpenConfig YANG modules:=0A= >> They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone= =0A= >> information and have defined separate types include zone information= .=0A= >> There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP= =0A= >> addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However,=0A= >> approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the=0A= >> ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in= =0A= >> theory some of those 58 entries could still intentionally be=0A= >> supporting zoned IP addresses, but I would expect that the vast=0A= >> majority would not.=0A= >> I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the= =0A= >> same way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks= =0A= >> have got the definition right.=0A= >>=0A= >> I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address=0A= >> definition is effectively optional, and implementations are not=0A= >> really obliged to implement it. I don't find that argument=0A= >> compelling, at least not with the current definition of ip-address= =0A= >> in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference between a type defined with= =0A= >> an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values and a type=0A= >> that is explicitly defined to included additional values in the=0A= >> allowable value space. Further, I believe that a client just=0A= >> looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that=0A= >> implements a data node using ip-address would be expected to support= =0A= >> IP zones, where they are meaningful, or otherwise they should=0A= >> deviate that data node to indicate that they don't conform to the=0A= >> model.=0A= >>=0A= >> We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do.=0A= >> They are not going to start writing code to support zones just=0A= >> because they are in the model. They will mostly reject IP addresses= =0A= >> with zone information. Perhaps some will deviate the type to=0A= >> ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't.=0A= >>=0A= >> The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel= =0A= >> at all appealing. This would take a significant amount of=0A= >> time/effort and I think that we will struggle to find folks who are= =0A= >> willing to do this. Although errata could be used to point out the= =0A= >> bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the errata would be "hold for= =0A= >> document update" at best. Further, during the time that it would=0A= >> take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrect usages of=0A= >> ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed via=0A= >> scripted checks/warnings).=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state= =0A= >> where the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to=0A= >> mean, i.e., excluding zone information.=0A= >>=0A= >> Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible=0A= >> change to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following=0A= >> might be a possible path that gains wider consensus:=0A= >>=0A= >> (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we:=0A= >> (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions)= =0A= >> and keep the -no-zone versions.=0A= >> (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate:=0A= >> - Although the type allows for zone information, many=0A= >> implementations are unlikely to accept zone information in most=0A= >> scenarios (i.e., so the description of the type more accurately=0A= >> reflects reality).=0A= >> - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where= =0A= >> zoned IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use=0A= >> ip-address with the intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST= =0A= >> migrate to ip-address-with-zone.=0A= >> - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published),= =0A= >> the expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to= =0A= >> match that of ip-address-no-zone.=0A= >>=0A= >> (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the= =0A= >> definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate= =0A= >> the "-no-zone" version at the same time.=0A= >>=0A= >> My reasoning as to why to take this path is:=0A= >> (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time= =0A= >> to migrate.=0A= >> (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that= =0A= >> it aligns to the OC definition).=0A= >> (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs.=0A= >> (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an= =0A= >> NBC change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this=0A= >> change (import revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema=0A= >> comparison).=0A= >>=0A= >> I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable= =0A= >> consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live= =0A= >> with it.=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> This is a very thoughtful proposal. Looks good to me.=0A= >>=0A= >> It does introduce a window in which some new modules might start using= =0A= >> 'ip-address-no-zone'.=0A= >> Should they wait for the real 'ip-address' in 2 more years or just use= =0A= >> 'ip-address-no-zone'?=0A= >>=0A= >> The leaf description-stmt using 'ip-address' should specify if any=0A= >> zone support is required.=0A= >> The default could be 'none' so no mention is needed most of the time.=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> Regards,=0A= >> Rob=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> Andy=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> > -----Original Message-----=0A= >> > From: netmod > > On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn=0A= >> > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59=0A= >> > To: Christian Hopps = >=0A= >> > Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; netmod@ietf.org=0A= >> =0A= >> > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action:=0A= >> draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-=0A= >> > yang-10.txt=0A= >> >=0A= >> > Hi -=0A= >> >=0A= >> > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote:=0A= >> > ..=0A= >> > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting= =0A= >> that=0A= >> > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been=0A= >> misused=0A= >> > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations i= n=0A= >> > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's=0A= >> point). So,=0A= >> > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that= =0A= >> the AD in=0A= >> > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well.=0A= >> >=0A= >> > That's not the impression one gets from modules like=0A= >> > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt= =0A= >> = =0A= >> > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is=0A= >> willing=0A= >> > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of= =0A= >> > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage -=0A= >> > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the=0A= >> > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so=0A= >> > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually=0A= >> > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise.= =0A= >> >=0A= >> > Randy=0A= >> >=0A= >> > _______________________________________________=0A= >> > netmod mailing list=0A= >> > netmod@ietf.org =0A= >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= >> =0A= >>=0A= >> _______________________________________________=0A= >> netmod mailing list=0A= >> netmod@ietf.org =0A= >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= >> =0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> _______________________________________________=0A= >> netmod mailing list=0A= >> netmod@ietf.org=0A= >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= >=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > netmod mailing list=0A= > netmod@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= netmod mailing list=0A= netmod@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= From nobody Wed Apr 13 02:22:27 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B003A0E41; 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Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:22:03 +0000 From: tom petch To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "netmod@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt Thread-Index: AQHYS0LtvCKzbyeW0Ui+zAGBTFJWiqzmTi+AgASoWYCAAqEdqg== Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:22:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b1e3059a-fdaf-42fe-1573-08da1d2f1252 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM8PR07MB8189:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b1e3059a-fdaf-42fe-1573-08da1d2f1252 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Apr 2022 09:22:03.3290 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: xjkhBZNa2i3v5eyive+WCT+rK1LPgwcfnEibUa74sGAmwFEIghUXPOZIq0PYnZ66nB/aJEcMvb7ea+poc5Y8cA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8189 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:22:13 -0000 From: netmod on behalf of Rob Wilton (rwilton) =0A= Sent: 11 April 2022 18:06=0A= =0A= Hi all,=0A= =0A= Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if we are = able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution.=0A= =0A= I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the v4/v= 6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has been giv= en to the unusual variant of including zone information.=0A= =0A= Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me that most = of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and the int= ention was that IP addresses without zones was intended. At a rough count,= of the published RFC YANG models at github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ t= o be:=0A= 86 uses of ip-address=0A= 68 uses of ipv4-address=0A= 66 uses of ipv6-address=0A= =0A= 1 use of ip-address-no-zone=0A= 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone=0A= 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone=0A= =0A= These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in RFCs. At= a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may appear in 40-5= 0 RFCs.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= As is sometimes the case with the processes of the IETF, this ignores any i= ssues of transition. I have pointed out a significant number of WG that ha= ve modules in I-D which include no-zone, in various states, perhaps increas= ing your figures by an order of magnitude. What are you going to do with I= -D e.g. in the RFC Editor queue? Haul them back?=0A= =0A= I think that the plan below is a bad one. I would introduce types with zon= e - that is a no-brainer - but would deprecate the existing types.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the OpenConfig = YANG modules:=0A= They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone informa= tion and have defined separate types include zone information.=0A= There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP addres= ses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, approximately a t= hird of the IP address types are still to the ietf-inet-types.yang rather t= han openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory some of those 58 entries could= still intentionally be supporting zoned IP addresses, but I would expect t= hat the vast majority would not.=0A= I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the same w= ay in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have got the d= efinition right.=0A= =0A= I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address definition is e= ffectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to implemen= t it. I don't find that argument compelling, at least not with the current= definition of ip-address in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference between a = type defined with an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values an= d a type that is explicitly defined to included additional values in the al= lowable value space. Further, I believe that a client just looking at the = YANG module could reasonably expect a server that implements a data node us= ing ip-address would be expected to support IP zones, where they are meanin= gful, or otherwise they should deviate that data node to indicate that they= don't conform to the model.=0A= =0A= We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. They are = not going to start writing code to support zones just because they are in t= he model. They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone information. Per= haps some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, but probably most wo= n't.=0A= =0A= The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel at all= appealing. This would take a significant amount of time/effort and I thin= k that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do this. Although= errata could be used to point out the bug, then can't be used to fix it, a= ll the errata would be "hold for document update" at best. Further, during= the time that it would take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorr= ect usages of ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed vi= a scripted checks/warnings).=0A= =0A= =0A= I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state where t= he "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to mean, i.e., excl= uding zone information.=0A= =0A= Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change to th= e new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a possible p= ath that gains wider consensus:=0A= =0A= (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we:=0A= (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and keep= the -no-zone versions.=0A= (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate:=0A= - Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations are u= nlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the descript= ion of the type more accurately reflects reality).=0A= - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where zoned IP= addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address with the int= ention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to ip-address-with-zon= e.=0A= - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), the exp= ectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to match that of = ip-address-no-zone.=0A= =0A= (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the definit= ion of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the "-no-zone" = version at the same time.=0A= =0A= My reasoning as to why to take this path is:=0A= (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to migr= ate.=0A= (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it alig= ns to the OC definition).=0A= (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs.=0A= (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an NBC ch= ange, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change (import r= evision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison).=0A= =0A= I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable consen= sus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with it.=0A= =0A= Regards,=0A= Rob=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= > -----Original Message-----=0A= > From: netmod On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn=0A= > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59=0A= > To: Christian Hopps =0A= > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org=0A= > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-ls= a-=0A= > yang-10.txt=0A= >=0A= > Hi -=0A= >=0A= > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote:=0A= > ..=0A= > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that=0A= > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused=0A= > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in=0A= > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's point). So= ,=0A= > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the AD in= =0A= > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well.=0A= >=0A= > That's not the impression one gets from modules like=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt=0A= > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is willing=0A= > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of=0A= > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage -=0A= > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the=0A= > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so=0A= > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually=0A= > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise.=0A= >=0A= > Randy=0A= >=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > netmod mailing list=0A= > netmod@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= netmod mailing list=0A= netmod@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= From nobody Wed Apr 13 02:44:54 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D083A1686; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 02:44:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.606 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.606 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR11MB4196.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9b82dd02-9b4f-4a6c-9bc0-08da1d323794 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Apr 2022 09:44:34.3465 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: HpebefWtut1UYgMWbU0sX0x5qjp1fhjCM1zJfr5K0jA9/7vAwz9TyrUSm6hm7VRhZVCG8Z0j1z+5pEdzeMQShQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM4PR11MB5535 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.135.124, xfe-aln-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:44:43 -0000 Hi Tom, Please see inline ... > -----Original Message----- > From: tom petch > Sent: 13 April 2022 10:22 > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; netmod@ietf.org; > lsr@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-ls= a- > yang-10.txt >=20 > From: netmod on behalf of Rob Wilton > (rwilton) > Sent: 11 April 2022 18:06 >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if we ar= e > able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. >=20 > I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the v4= /v6 > versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has been > given to the unusual variant of including zone information. >=20 > Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me that mos= t > of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and the > intention was that IP addresses without zones was intended. At a rough > count, of the published RFC YANG models at github > YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: > 86 uses of ip-address > 68 uses of ipv4-address > 66 uses of ipv6-address >=20 > 1 use of ip-address-no-zone > 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone > 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone >=20 > These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in RFCs. = At > a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may appear in 40-= 50 > RFCs. >=20 >=20 > >=20 > As is sometimes the case with the processes of the IETF, this ignores any > issues of transition. I have pointed out a significant number of WG that= have > modules in I-D which include no-zone, in various states, perhaps increasi= ng > your figures by an order of magnitude. What are you going to do with I-D > e.g. in the RFC Editor queue? Haul them back? I think that depends on what consensus is reached. I have no desire of trying to republish existing RFCs to either change "ip-= address" to "ip-address-no-zone" or to change "ip-address-no-zone" to "ip-a= ddress". I think the pragmatic thing to do would be to potentially flag th= ese as errata so that they are hopefully fixed if/when the YANG module is e= ventually updated. Entirely separately from this specific discussion, it would be good if we (= the IETF) could come up with a better long-term plan for maintaining and ev= olving IETF YANG modules. >=20 > I think that the plan below is a bad one. I would introduce types with z= one - > that is a no-brainer - but would deprecate the existing types. Why is deprecating an existing type a problem? It is deprecated, not obsol= ete. It does not mean that modules can't use "ip-address-no-zone", it would just= indicate that "ip-address" is the recommended type, if we get to a consens= us where ip-address should migrate to meaning exactly the same as ip-addres= s-no-zone. There are APIs in Java that have been deprecated for 10+ years that are sti= ll available for use, but where the recommended is to not use them, or use = a replacement API instead. Regards, Rob >=20 > Tom Petch >=20 > As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the OpenConfi= g > YANG modules: > They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone > information and have defined separate types include zone information. > There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP > addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, > approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the ietf-inet- > types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory some of > those 58 entries could still intentionally be supporting zoned IP address= es, > but I would expect that the vast majority would not. > I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the same= way > in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have got the > definition right. >=20 > I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address definition is > effectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to > implement it. I don't find that argument compelling, at least not with t= he > current definition of ip-address in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference b= etween > a type defined with an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid value= s > and a type that is explicitly defined to included additional values in th= e > allowable value space. Further, I believe that a client just looking at = the > YANG module could reasonably expect a server that implements a data node > using ip-address would be expected to support IP zones, where they are > meaningful, or otherwise they should deviate that data node to indicate t= hat > they don't conform to the model. >=20 > We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. They ar= e > not going to start writing code to support zones just because they are in= the > model. They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone information. Perh= aps > some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't= . >=20 > The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel at a= ll > appealing. This would take a significant amount of time/effort and I thi= nk > that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do this. Although= errata > could be used to point out the bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the= errata > would be "hold for document update" at best. Further, during the time th= at > it would take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrect usages of= ip- > address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed via scripted > checks/warnings). >=20 >=20 > I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state where= the "ip- > address" type means what 99% of people expect it to mean, i.e., excluding > zone information. >=20 > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change to > the new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a possib= le > path that gains wider consensus: >=20 > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and ke= ep > the -no-zone versions. > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > - Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations are > unlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the descr= iption > of the type more accurately reflects reality). > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where zoned > IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address with the > intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to ip-address-wit= h- > zone. > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), the > expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to match tha= t of > ip-address-no-zone. >=20 > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the defin= ition > of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the "-no-zone" > version at the same time. >=20 > My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to mi= grate. > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it al= igns to > the OC definition). > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an NBC > change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change (impo= rt > revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). >=20 > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable > consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with i= t. >=20 > Regards, > Rob >=20 >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: netmod On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 > > To: Christian Hopps > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-= lsa- > > yang-10.txt > > > > Hi - > > > > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > .. > > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that > > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused > > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in > > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's point). = So, > > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the AD = in > > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. > > > > That's not the impression one gets from modules like > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt > > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is willing > > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of > > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - > > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the > > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so > > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually > > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. > > > > Randy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Wed Apr 13 04:19:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4D6E3A0D02 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 04:19:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, 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(PDT) Received: from fraeml701-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.207]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4Kdkcq3CC6z67JVF for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:55:23 +0800 (CST) Received: from canpemm500006.china.huawei.com (7.192.105.130) by fraeml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2375.24; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:57:35 +0200 Received: from canpemm500005.china.huawei.com (7.192.104.229) by canpemm500006.china.huawei.com (7.192.105.130) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2375.24; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:57:34 +0800 Received: from canpemm500005.china.huawei.com ([7.192.104.229]) by canpemm500005.china.huawei.com ([7.192.104.229]) with mapi id 15.01.2375.024; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:57:34 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , 'Kent Watsen' , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 Thread-Index: AdhPPOzaYvX8Av52RNqvR5vLs7sdUw== Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 13:57:34 +0000 Message-ID: <448cca5abaaf4e298cd5215cf5c51abb@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.100.16] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_448cca5abaaf4e298cd5215cf5c51abbhuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 13:57:45 -0000 --_000_448cca5abaaf4e298cd5215cf5c51abbhuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhhbmtzIEFkcmlhbiBmb3IgdmFsdWFibGUgcmV2aWV3LCBJIGhhdmUgaW50ZWdyYXRlZCB5b3Vy 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Thanks Adrian for valuable review, I have integrated your comment= s in https://github.com/billwuqin/draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags/blob/main/draft-ie= tf-netmod-node-tags-07.txt

Please also see my reply inline below.

 

-Qin

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Adrian Farrel
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:= 2022=C4=EA4=D4=C213=C8=D5 5:36
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 'Kent Watsen' <kent+ietf@watsen.net>; netmod@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06

 

Hi,

 <= /o:p>

I had previo= usly provided a review of this document (at revision -04),

and the auth= ors worked to address my comments through the subsequent<= /p>

revisions.

 <= /o:p>

I have now r= e-read this document during WG last call. Most of my

comments are= nits, but there are a few suggestions of substance.

 <= /o:p>

Once these a= re all resolved the document will, in my opinion, be

ready for pu= blication.

 <= /o:p>

Best,

Adrian<= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=

 <= /o:p>

The document= needs a note somewhere near the top.

 <= /o:p>

[RFC Editor = Note: Please replace XXXX in the text with the RFC number=

assigned to = this document, and remove this note.]

[Qin Wu]  thanks, h= ave added them in several places.

---

 <= /o:p>

Abstract

 <= /o:p>

s/characteri= stics/characteristic/

s/the module= definition/the definition of the module/

 

[Qi= n Wu] Fixed, thank.

---

 <= /o:p>

Introduction=

 <= /o:p>

s/represent = a portion/represent only a portion/

 <= /o:p>

OLD

  = there is no consistent classification criteria or

  = representation

NEW

  = there are no consistent classification criteria or

  = representations

END

 <= /o:p>

  = This document defines self-describing data object tags and associates=

  = them with data objects within a YANG module, which:

I think that= may be s/associates them/shows how they may be associated/

 <= /o:p>

s/by the NET= CONF/by a NETCONF/

 

[Qi= n Wu] Good wording and proposed changes, have accepted them all.=

---

 <= /o:p>

4.

 <= /o:p>

  = All data object tags SHOULD begin with a prefix indicating who owns

  = their definition.  An IANA registry (Section 9.1) is used to register=

  = data object tag prefixes.  Initially, three prefixes are defined.

 <= /o:p>

I'm not sure= who you are binding with this use of uppercase SHOULD or=

what varianc= e you are allowing.

 <= /o:p>

I think you = are probably giving instructions to the authors of future=

documents th= at define new tags (since the ones you define do all have=

a prefix - i= etf:, vendor:, and user:).

 <= /o:p>

But the reas= on you have "SHOULD" not "MUST" is because of the text = in

4.3 (and see= below for a comment on that).

 <= /o:p>

So how about= being more explicit with something like:

 <= /o:p>

  = All data object tags (except in some cases of user tags as described<= /o:p>

  = in Section 4.3) begin with a prefix indicating who owns their

  = definition.  An IANA registry (Section 9.1) is used to register data<= o:p>

  = object tag prefixes.  Initially, three prefixes are defined.

 

[Qi= n Wu] Your understanding is correct, the proposed change looks good.=

---

 <= /o:p>

4.2

 <= /o:p>

  = These tags are defined by the vendor that implements the module, and<= /o:p>

  = are not registered with IANA.  However, it is RECOMMENDED that the

  = vendor includes extra identification in the tag to avoid collisions,<= /o:p>

  = such as using the enterprise or organization name following the=

  = "vendor:" prefix (e.g., vendor:example.com:vendor-defined- =        

  =  classifier).

 <= /o:p>

I'm still no= t really happy with the disambiguation achieved using "the<= /span>

enterprise o= r organization name". There is no registry of enterprise or

organisation= names, so there is no way to be sure of uniqueness. But if

you recommen= ded the use of an enterprise number (possibly with the

secondary pr= efix entno:) then things would be cleaner.

 <= /o:p>

This would a= lso enable you to have an example that did not use a URN<= /p>

which is not= really an example of an enterprise name or organization<= /p>

name. (There= is an enterprise number reserved for documentation - 32743)

 

[Qi= n Wu] Good improvement, I am happy to replace the original text<= /span>

Wit= h =A1=B0vendor:entno:vendor-defined-classifier=A1=B1, yes, RFC5612 provides

Ent= erprise Number for Documentation Use, which is 32743.=

---

 <= /o:p>

4.3

 <= /o:p>

The ambiguit= y in this section needs to be sorted out. It's clear to me

that you:

- prefer use= r tags to have the prefix "user:"

- you allow = user tags without that prefix provided they do not contain

  a col= on

 <= /o:p>

However, you= have...

 <= /o:p>

  = A user tag is any tag that has the prefix "user:".  For the= avoidance

  = of confusion, the colon (":") when it appears for the first time= , is

  = always assumed to be the separator between a prefix and the rest of

  = the tag.  And so, when a user tag does not have a prefix, it MUST NOT=

  = contain a colon.

 <= /o:p>

  = These tags are defined by a user/administrator and are not meant to

   = ;be registered with IANA.  Users are not required to use the "use= r:"

  = prefix; however, doing so is RECOMMENDED as it helps avoid

  = collisions.

 <= /o:p>

The first se= ntence defines a user tag to have the prefix "user:" which

is then cont= radicted. Further, I don't think that there will be

collisions b= ecause of the no-colon rule.

 <= /o:p>

Maybe this c= ould be sorted out by replacing the text as:

 <= /o:p>

  = User tags are defined by a user/administrator and are not registered<= /o:p>

  = by IANA.  

 <= /o:p>

  = Any tag with the prefix "user:" is a user tag.  Furthermore= , any

  =  tag that does not contain a colon (":", i.e., has no prefix= ) is also

  = a user tag.  Users are not required to use the "user:"=

  = prefix; however, doing so is RECOMMENDED.

 

[Qi= n Wu] Thanks, the proposed change looks good.<= o:p>

---

 <= /o:p>

4.4 conflict= s with 4.3. That is, 4.3 says that tags can start without=

any of those= three prefixes without being reserved.

 <= /o:p>

I don't thin= k "reserved in the context of specifications" has a clear

meaning.

 <= /o:p>

I think you = need...

 <= /o:p>

4.4.  R= eserved Prefixes

 <= /o:p>

  = Section 9.1 describes the IANA registry of tag prefixes.  Any prefix<= o:p>

  = not included in that registry is reserved for future use, but tags

  = starting with such a prefix are still valid tags.

 

[Qi= n Wu] Accepted, thanks.

---

 <= /o:p>

5.2

 <= /o:p>

  = An implementation MAY include additional tags associated with data

  = objects within a YANG module.  These tags SHOULD be IETF

  = (Section 4.1) or vendor tags (Section 4.2).

 <= /o:p>

The use of &= quot;SHOULD" is fine, but you need to give the alternative and

the reason f= or choosing the alternative.

[Qin Wu] I think IETF ta= g is register while vendor tag not, I will add text to clarify.

---

 <= /o:p>

7. multi-sou= rce-tag

 <= /o:p>

s/'non-aggre= gated'  multi-source/'non-aggregated' multi-source/<= /p>

 

[Qi= n Wu] Accepted.

---

 <= /o:p>

8.

 <= /o:p>

  = This section updates [RFC8407].

 <= /o:p>

A fine state= ment as far as it goes, but probably should say just a

little more.= Maybe,

 <= /o:p>

  = This section updates [RFC8407] by providing text that may be

  =  regarded as a new subsection to Section 4 of that document.  It<= o:p>

  = does not change anything already present in [RFC8407].

 

[Qi= n Wu] works for me.

---

 <= /o:p>

8.1

 <= /o:p>

s/Section Se= ction 9.2/Section 9.2/

 

[Qi= n Wu] Fixed.

---

 <= /o:p>

9.1

 <= /o:p>

  = This registry allocates tag prefixes.  All YANG Data Object Tags=

  = should begin with one of the prefixes in this registry.<= /p>

 <= /o:p>

That's not q= uite true, is it?

 

[Qi= n Wu] I think this is recommendation for all YANG data node tags beginning = with one of prefixed in this registry,

May= be we should use RFC2119 language,e.g., replace =A1=AEshould=A1=AFwith =A1= =AESHOULD=A1=AF?

---

 <= /o:p>

9.2 Figure 6= Table 2

 <= /o:p>

There are so= me formatting errors in the Metric Type Tag part of the

table. Also = a couple of minor ones in Multiple Source Tag.

 

[Qi= n Wu] Fixed.

---

 <= /o:p>

OLD

Appendix C.&= nbsp; Targeted data object collection example

NEW

Appendix C.&= nbsp; Targeted Data Object Collection Example

END

 

[Qi= n Wu] Fixed, thanks.

From: netmod &= lt;netmod-bounces@ietf.org&g= t; On Behalf Of Kent Watsen
Sent: 08 April 2022 19:10
To: netmod@ietf.org
Subject: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06<= /span>

 

This message begins a Working Group Last Call (WG= LC) on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06, per the chair-action from the 1= 13 session (minutes).  The WGLC will close in two-weeks (Apr 22).  Here is a direct link to the HTML version of the draft:


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-= ietf-netmod-node-tags

Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it i= s ready for publication", are welcome!  This is useful and import= ant, even from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also welc= omed at this time.

 

Please be aware that this draft has declared IPR indicating= that license may entail possible royalty/fee. Also, this exchange between Lou and Qin on 8/30/2020 (mailman):

 

[Lou] Since this work is derived from work that I= contributed to, I'd be interested in hearing what new mechanism(s) is= /are covered by the IPR disclosure prior to supporting WG adoption.  I'm not asking in order to debate this,= as that is something for other venues, I'm merely asking that you state fo= r the record what new mechanism is covered.

 

[Qin] Thanks for asking, different from module le= vel tag defined in draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags , this work provide d= ata node level tag definition, use these data node level tag definition to provide hint or indication to selection = filter in the YANG push and tell the collector or subscriber which specific= category data objects needs to fetched.

 

 

Kent (as co-chair)

 

--_000_448cca5abaaf4e298cd5215cf5c51abbhuaweicom_-- From nobody Wed Apr 13 09:41:35 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BEE53A1827 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:41:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rpKmzRDMy23T for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 472773A17DF for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com with SMTP id z33so4789786ybh.5 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:41:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mkHP9MNxh5KboXF+YWMV9CWzbrw22INggQT2N32HZVc=; b=PeUqCchVp+TFaTrXNKbQ5uF5ehxsttHD0R0mzKnf4VTmG/ag25ICBGTGAHitjjxrkR VtxacSpMfsh6vpmRp+73BPVOsYRfssH/QuNdaJbnBrupZwSQSey/Wi7Vc+1SyvRJNxV3 2ef1Feu1e2pTOI49vhPRao83LQwmy6vemQ41oh9GeAT0716X4Ad5t2pMNlV1Plq208b3 NDtk7duObZc8BG6f9oIDR60u1CV3F/9FJi2A1lOIUvGBF5wAw8AHk8Er4M8NX3gL1qLy O3AhK6hASvMSM19ROjhejcUUItObGPvvSQj2P02/NvI5PvhLapFD2EDYUs0CS1UfqOLM BuLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mkHP9MNxh5KboXF+YWMV9CWzbrw22INggQT2N32HZVc=; b=nnHAvlS04bywjuQe3eCXZNFaaTkvni4qRG6FkKdNpJd4/GBb8fsA44CDVBgNN69/HX PUGUqrhgAJckio0OvpIt15c97qXaT/vxEpDz9AqARGzu3nTfgc4RHlPDPalLjpFA4uvX KhmaHTXat+Qye0EldkU/zaV8aHVYlpm3SM7y6Jy5C4UOn18DVaYPG+TJKiqxwvWlj8Wc 5svGotBgKstSLZlZZU0VPLVenNtYAlIltd7pzo5B+ERUIkvZUniFeJyOEy0ndXR8WV3X xv/p6OdXgSP4SqB7nWDtDYtTh7D7eSzYjAZTYSpw9Ra7QM1noCmcePTYJOJTqapGnAGc GwBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532QdBdB00WDFD5oicfsu1iIOU9Ijp3wA4w99HCpYT4NePJW0Qvp H6Fc+nrWR+EyiBLY3Opd9n9DEC6vP5WrreR8N2uMNdLVuSI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwm4mqAJ7jyv81n3RkUBRU6oYF4/edbVnb3wpjzRh4Q2btfxM4pOW7i/n2Xj0TtURaOJJCU4QBpOkYfNMu5czk= X-Received: by 2002:a25:ce4f:0:b0:641:54ed:ffdd with SMTP id x76-20020a25ce4f000000b0064154edffddmr12842177ybe.430.1649868079092; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:41:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:41:08 -0700 Message-ID: To: tom petch Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "netmod@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c7ef2d05dc8bd87c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 16:41:34 -0000 --000000000000c7ef2d05dc8bd87c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 2:22 AM tom petch wrote: > From: netmod on behalf of Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > Sent: 11 April 2022 18:06 > > Hi all, > > Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if we are > able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. > > I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the > v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has been > given to the unusual variant of including zone information. > > The core issue: how important is it to have the typedefs align with user expectations? The reason the ip-address typedef has been misused is because most people thought they knew what an IP address was already. They thought the 1000s of examples of IP addresses they had seen were enough. They copied "inet:ip-address" from another YANG module they found, never even reading ietf-inet-types.yang. There are lots of different SDOs creating YANG modules. Not just IETF and OpenConfig. Vendors need to deal with the integration themselves. Misalignment at the data type level, especially something as important as ip-address, is causing problems. Pretending the data types are aligned is not an optimal solution. Churning 100 or so YANG modules to use ip-address-no-zone is easier said than done. IMO this is the hardest proposal to execute. Andy > Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me that most > of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and the > intention was that IP addresses without zones was intended. At a rough > count, of the published RFC YANG models at github > YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: > 86 uses of ip-address > 68 uses of ipv4-address > 66 uses of ipv6-address > > 1 use of ip-address-no-zone > 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone > 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone > > These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in RFCs. > At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may appear in > 40-50 RFCs. > > > > > As is sometimes the case with the processes of the IETF, this ignores any > issues of transition. I have pointed out a significant number of WG that > have modules in I-D which include no-zone, in various states, perhaps > increasing your figures by an order of magnitude. What are you going to do > with I-D e.g. in the RFC Editor queue? Haul them back? > > I think that the plan below is a bad one. I would introduce types with > zone - that is a no-brainer - but would deprecate the existing types. > > Tom Petch > > As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the OpenConfig > YANG modules: > They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone > information and have defined separate types include zone information. > There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP > addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, > approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the > ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory > some of those 58 entries could still intentionally be supporting zoned IP > addresses, but I would expect that the vast majority would not. > I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the same > way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have got the > definition right. > > I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address definition is > effectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to > implement it. I don't find that argument compelling, at least not with the > current definition of ip-address in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference > between a type defined with an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid > values and a type that is explicitly defined to included additional values > in the allowable value space. Further, I believe that a client just > looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that implements > a data node using ip-address would be expected to support IP zones, where > they are meaningful, or otherwise they should deviate that data node to > indicate that they don't conform to the model. > > We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. They are > not going to start writing code to support zones just because they are in > the model. They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone information. > Perhaps some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, but probably most > won't. > > The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel at > all appealing. This would take a significant amount of time/effort and I > think that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do this. > Although errata could be used to point out the bug, then can't be used to > fix it, all the errata would be "hold for document update" at best. > Further, during the time that it would take us to fix it, it is plausible > that more incorrect usages of ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps > could be policed via scripted checks/warnings). > > > I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state where > the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to mean, i.e., > excluding zone information. > > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change to > the new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a possible > path that gains wider consensus: > > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and > keep the -no-zone versions. > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > - Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations are > unlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the > description of the type more accurately reflects reality). > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where zoned > IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address with the > intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to > ip-address-with-zone. > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), the > expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to match that > of ip-address-no-zone. > > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the > definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the > "-no-zone" version at the same time. > > My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to > migrate. > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it > aligns to the OC definition). > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an NBC > change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change (import > revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). > > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable > consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with it. > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: netmod On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 > > To: Christian Hopps > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa- > > yang-10.txt > > > > Hi - > > > > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > .. > > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that > > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused > > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in > > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's point). > So, > > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the AD in > > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. > > > > That's not the impression one gets from modules like > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt > > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is willing > > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of > > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - > > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the > > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so > > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually > > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. > > > > Randy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000c7ef2d05dc8bd87c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 2:22 AM tom p= etch <ietfc@btconnect.com>= wrote:
From: ne= tmod <netmo= d-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton=3D= 40cisco.com= @dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: 11 April 2022 18:06

Hi all,

Thanks for the comments on this thread so far.=C2=A0 It would be nice if we= are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution.

I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the v4/v= 6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has been giv= en to the unusual variant of including zone information.



The core issue: how imp= ortant is it to have the typedefs align with user expectations?
T= he reason the ip-address typedef has been misused is because most people th= ought they knew
what an IP address was already.=C2=A0 They though= t the 1000s of examples of IP addresses they had seen
were enough= . They=C2=A0copied "inet:ip-address"=C2=A0from another YANG modul= e they found, never even reading ietf-inet-types.yang.

=
There are lots of different SDOs creating YANG modules. Not just IETF = and OpenConfig.
Vendors need to deal with the integration themsel= ves.
Misalignment at the data type level, especially something as= important as ip-address, is causing problems.

Pre= tending the data types are aligned is not an optimal solution.
Ch= urning 100 or so YANG modules to use ip-address-no-zone is easier said than= done.
IMO this is the hardest proposal to execute.

Andy

=C2=A0
Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me that most = of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and the int= ention was that IP addresses without zones was intended.=C2=A0 At a rough c= ount, of the published RFC YANG models at github YangModels/standard/ietf/R= FC/ to be:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 86 uses of ip-address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 68 uses of ipv4-address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 66 uses of ipv6-address

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 use of ip-address-no-zone
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone

These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in RFCs.=C2= =A0 At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may appear i= n 40-50 RFCs.


<tp>

As is sometimes the case with the processes of the IETF, this ignores any i= ssues of transition.=C2=A0 I have pointed out a significant number of WG th= at have modules in I-D which include no-zone, in various states, perhaps in= creasing your figures by an order of magnitude.=C2=A0 What are you going to= do with I-D e.g. in the RFC Editor queue?=C2=A0 Haul them back?

I think that the plan below is a bad one.=C2=A0 I would introduce types wit= h zone - that is a no-brainer - but would deprecate the existing types.

Tom Petch

As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the OpenConfig = YANG modules:
They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone informa= tion and have defined separate types include zone information.
There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig= IP addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository.=C2=A0 However, ap= proximately a third of the IP address types are still to the ietf-inet-type= s.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory some of those 5= 8 entries could still intentionally be supporting zoned IP addresses, but I= would expect that the vast majority would not.
I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the same w= ay in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have got the d= efinition right.

I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address definition is e= ffectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to implemen= t it.=C2=A0 I don't find that argument compelling, at least not with th= e current definition of ip-address in RFC 6991.=C2=A0 I see a clear differe= nce between a type defined with an incomplete regex that may allow some inv= alid values and a type that is explicitly defined to included additional va= lues in the allowable value space.=C2=A0 Further, I believe that a client j= ust looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that implem= ents a data node using ip-address would be expected to support IP zones, wh= ere they are meaningful, or otherwise they should deviate that data node to= indicate that they don't conform to the model.

We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do.=C2=A0 They= are not going to start writing code to support zones just because they are= in the model.=C2=A0 They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone informa= tion.=C2=A0 Perhaps some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, but p= robably most won't.

The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel at= all appealing.=C2=A0 This would take a significant amount of time/effort a= nd I think that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do this.= =C2=A0 Although errata could be used to point out the bug, then can't b= e used to fix it, all the errata would be "hold for document update&qu= ot; at best.=C2=A0 Further, during the time that it would take us to fix it= , it is plausible that more incorrect usages of ip-address will likely occu= r (but perhaps could be policed via scripted checks/warnings).


I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state where t= he "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to mean, = i.e., excluding zone information.

Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change to th= e new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a possible p= ath that gains wider consensus:

(1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we:
(i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and keep= the -no-zone versions.
(ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate:
- Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations are u= nlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the descript= ion of the type more accurately reflects reality).
- A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where zoned IP= addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address with the int= ention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to ip-address-with-zon= e.
- In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), the exp= ectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to match that of = ip-address-no-zone.

(2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the definit= ion of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the "-no-z= one" version at the same time.

My reasoning as to why to take this path is:
(1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to migr= ate.
(2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it alig= ns to the OC definition).
(3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs.
(4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an NBC ch= ange, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change (import r= evision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison).

I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable consen= sus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with it.

Regards,
Rob



> -----Original Message-----
> From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59
> To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
> Cc: lsr@ietf.org= ; netmod@ietf.org<= br> > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended= -lsa-
> yang-10.txt
>
> Hi -
>
> On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote:
> ..
> > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asser= ting that
> > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misuse= d
> > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in<= br> > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy= 9;s point). So,
> > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the= AD in
> > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well.
>
> That's not the impression one gets from modules like
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id= /draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt
> which employs both types.=C2=A0 So, regardless of whether one is willi= ng
> to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter= of
> speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage -
> it clearly would.=C2=A0 Furthermore, my recollection is that the
> WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, = so
> any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually
> wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise.=
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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--000000000000c7ef2d05dc8bd87c-- From nobody Wed Apr 13 12:18:51 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E0D3A0B9B for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:18:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MAY_BE_FORGED=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jdh-4a3KOyeu for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CEC93A0B90 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (vs4.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.122]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 23DJIWws014161; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:18:32 +0100 Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7103B4604C; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:18:30 +0100 (BST) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id C42AB46095; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:17:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.248]) by vs4.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:17:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (205.197.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net [81.174.197.205] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 23DJHi1L021922 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:17:45 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Qin Wu'" , "'Kent Watsen'" , References: <448cca5abaaf4e298cd5215cf5c51abb@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <448cca5abaaf4e298cd5215cf5c51abb@huawei.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:17:43 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <0aa701d84f6b$27ae02c0$770a0840$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0AA8_01D84F73.8972DFF0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGEQAqBpOgJlSucL2tjg3+v7VFtAK2WTDng Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 81.174.197.205 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2090-9.0.0.1000-26832.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--18.241-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--18.241-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2090-9.0.1000-26832.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--18.241100-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: vbSD0OnL8/LxIbpQ8BhdbI61Z+HJnvsOBMdp5178zSP5q5JB+ib2Qaq3 7hVCqLMtidsPY1asxdto0kiDJMs9TKGDMgFJdihf0e7jfBjhB8eOQOsE4nDCdLXl40gTGJ5ph+t oLLKXwRF44tU5RItIpjAAnSut5Z63vNOynLtydfUTuwt1FVoaZ99WrDP4LKdpnSgPkvDdtOgSpK YPHUJnSpCJSqC8FQVQPA1qQZtQo2U5jS4V09dQzlICmG2RRehovO61PPXizymZwdqszN1DlMTr/ G24o7RrqjbqKM7gD/kF8O3PoMprwnbXnT7gULmTIj0zFI5DoJLCXeHJwJcT9lCd7VOgbE3o+qwO bAztNgxU1xB5SaFW0yqFmu/h/tw7CkBHQ7k87pIOsNNBnlgRWn0tCKdnhB58r10pknZXGJrJ4y0 wP1A6AB8AKgKWeNGh0KkIUsNMdlRq8/xv2Um1aiUIayx+Skid X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 19:18:49 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0AA8_01D84F73.8972DFF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Qin, Very good. Thanks for this. Almost perfect convergence. Just one point left. 9.1 This registry allocates tag prefixes. All YANG Data Object Tags should begin with one of the prefixes in this registry. That's not quite true, is it? [Qin Wu] I think this is recommendation for all YANG data node tags beginning with one of prefixed in this registry, Maybe we should use RFC2119 language,e.g., replace 'should'with 'SHOULD'? Ah, sorry, I wasn't clear. The user tags are Data Objects Tags, but they don't have to begin with a prefix. Since this section is IANA instructions, it isn't really appropriate to use 2119 language. I think, re-reading the whole of Section 9.1 again, maybe this paragraph isn't actually necessary at all. It doesn't tell IANA anything they need to know, and it doesn't cover anything that isn't already covered elsewhere in the document. Best, Adrian ------=_NextPart_000_0AA8_01D84F73.8972DFF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Qin,

 

Very good. = Thanks for this. Almost perfect convergence.

 

Just one = point left…

 

9.1

 

   This registry = allocates tag prefixes.  All YANG Data Object = Tags

   should begin with one = of the prefixes in this registry.

 

That's not quite true, is it? =

 

[Qin = Wu] I think this is recommendation for all YANG data node tags beginning = with one of prefixed in this registry,

Maybe= we should use RFC2119 language,e.g., replace ‘should’with = ‘SHOULD’?

 

Ah, sorry, = I wasn’t clear.

The user tags are Data Objects = Tags, but they don’t have to begin with a prefix. =

Since this section is IANA = instructions, it isn’t really appropriate to use 2119 = language.

 

I think, = re-reading the whole of Section 9.1 again, maybe this paragraph = isn’t actually necessary at all. It doesn’t tell IANA = anything they need to know, and it doesn’t cover anything that = isn’t already covered elsewhere in the = document.

 

Best,

Adrian

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draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 Thread-Index: AdhPmE9bYvX8Av52RNqvR5vLs7sdUw== Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 00:42:23 +0000 Message-ID: <799bc449f28d4d27ade2922271e06236@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.100.16] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_799bc449f28d4d27ade2922271e06236huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 00:42:35 -0000 --_000_799bc449f28d4d27ade2922271e06236huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 t6K8/sjLOiBBZHJpYW4gRmFycmVsIFttYWlsdG86YWRyaWFuQG9sZGRvZy5jby51a10NCreiy83K 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=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:= 2022=C4=EA4=D4=C214=C8=D5 3:18
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>; 'Kent Watsen' <kent+ietf@= watsen.net>; netmod@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06

 

Hi Qin,=

 <= /o:p>

Very good. T= hanks for this. Almost perfect convergence.

 <= /o:p>

Just one poi= nt left=A1=AD

 <= /o:p>

9.1

 <= /o:p>

  = This registry allocates tag prefixes.  All YANG Data Object Tags=

  = should begin with one of the prefixes in this registry.<= /p>

 <= /o:p>

That's not q= uite true, is it?

 

[Qin Wu] I think this is recommendation for all YA= NG data node tags beginning with one of prefixed in this registry,

Maybe we should use RFC2119 language,e.g., replace= =A1=AEshould=A1=AFwith =A1=AESHOULD=A1=AF?

 <= /o:p>

Ah, sorry, I= wasn=A1=AFt clear.

The user tag= s are Data Objects Tags, but they don=A1=AFt have to begin with a prefix.

Since this s= ection is IANA instructions, it isn=A1=AFt really appropriate to use 2119 l= anguage.

 <= /o:p>

I think, re-= reading the whole of Section 9.1 again, maybe this paragraph isn=A1=AFt act= ually necessary at all. It doesn=A1=AFt tell IANA anything they need to know, and it doesn=A1=AFt cover anything that isn=A1= =AFt already covered elsewhere in the document.

[Qin Wu] Your argument i= n this context is reasonable to me, I will take it out, thanks for your sug= gestion.

Best,

Adrian<= /o:p>

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From: Qin Wu To: "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Feedback on Self-Describing Data Object Tags in YANG Data Models Thread-Index: AdhPxfHBY/Pgq/COn0q4HG9XZhoqhA== Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 06:09:04 +0000 Message-ID: <7349a585b7104558aa4f1211805c6c35@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.100.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Feedback on Self-Describing Data Object Tags in YANG Data Models X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 06:09:14 -0000 VGhhbmtzIEpvZSwgSSBiZWxpZXZlIHdlIGFyZSBvbiB0aGUgc2FtZSBwYWdlIG5vdywgSSBhbSB3 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--_000_BY5PR11MB41964229E0D8FD487583F698B5EF9BY5PR11MB4196namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Spinning off part of the discussion into a separate thread, but keeping lsr= cc'ed on the discussion. I'm trying to get a better understand of how and where zoned IP addresses s= hould be used in YANG data models. RFC 4007 defines zones for IPv6 addresses, but not for IPv4. Even though R= FC 6991 bis has support for a zoned IPv4 address, I'm struggling to see whe= re zoned IPv4 addresses would ever really be used. Does anyone know of any= usage or deployments anywhere? For IPv6, my understanding is that the use of the zone is to add the extra = interface context for IPv6 link-local addresses. Is there any use of zones= outside of this interface context? The current definition of ipv6-address type and the ip-address nodes in iet= f-ip.yang seem to make zoned IP addresses hard to use. The canonical zone = definition in RFC 6991 is for an (presumably unique) numeric zone identifie= r, but in the YANG management layer it is unclear to me how one maps from t= his numeric id back to the interface name (e.g., for a client to construct = a suitable zoned IP address in configuration). ietf-ip.yang uses ipv6-add= ress-no-zone for interface IP addresses so it isn't possible to get the zon= e id associated with the link local address. This feels underspecified to = me to tie these together and make this work robustly. I also have a general question about what is the best way of modelling this= in YANG. Using a zoned ip address is one choice to link an IP address and= interface together. Another choice is to have a separate leaf to scope an= IP address to a specific interface, wherever that is appropriate and requi= red. E.g., considering the IP RIB YANG model, | | +--rw v6ur:ipv6 | | +--rw v6ur:route* [destination-prefix] | | +--rw v6ur:destination-prefix | | | inet:ipv6-prefix | | +--rw v6ur:description? string | | +--rw v6ur:next-hop | | +--rw (v6ur:next-hop-options) | | +--:(v6ur:simple-next-hop) | | | +--rw v6ur:outgoing-interface? | | | | if:interface-ref | | | +--rw v6ur:next-hop-address? | | | inet:ipv6-address Given that an outgoing-interface is already provided then it seems that usi= ng a zoned IP address as a next hop address here would potentially be confu= sing, or at least not required because it is effectively already scoped to = the outgoing-interface anyway? It seems like it provides redundant informa= tion. Considering another arbitrary protocol YANG module RFC, this time TWAMP, rf= c 8913, it seems that some of the ip-address fields in the model could in t= heory support link local addresses (e.g., the test-session ones), but it is= unclear to me whether that was ever the intent, or whether that even makes= sense. For the other uses of IP addresses that identify a client or serve= r, it feels like using link local addresses is much less compelling. Model= ling these all with the same type seems confusing. | +--rw test-session-request* [name] | +--rw name string | +--rw sender-ip? inet:ip-address | +--rw sender-udp-port? union | +--rw reflector-ip inet:ip-address | +--rw reflector-udp-port? inet:port-number | +--rw timeout? uint64 | +--rw padding-length? uint32 | +--rw test-packet-dscp? inet:dscp | +--rw start-time? uint64 | +--rw repeat? uint32 | +--rw repeat-interval? uint32 | +--rw pm-reg-list* [pm-index] | | +--rw pm-index uint16 | +--ro state? test-session-state | +--ro sid? string E.g., I guess that you could use a zoned IP address for the reflector-ip, b= ut I suspect that most implementations would not anticipate/support this. = It feels to me that a cleaner way of modelling this would be to not use a z= oned IP address type at all and have a separate egress-interface if:-interf= ace-ref (perhaps under an if-feature, to enable and indicate support for te= st sessions over link-local addresses). My overriding concern here, if we don't change/fix the ip-address type, is = that we will end up with a set of YANG models that: 1. Models this behaviour in different ways for different protocols/featu= res. 2. Are entirely ambiguous to clients and implementations as to whether i= t makes sense to support zoned IP addresses and/or whether zoned link-local= addresses are supported for each leaf. 3. We are creating models for a hypothetical use case rather than how th= ese protocols are actually being deployed/implemented today. I.e., I am mo= re concerned about getting IETF YANG modules usable for the 99% use case th= an the 1% use case. Regards, Rob --_000_BY5PR11MB41964229E0D8FD487583F698B5EF9BY5PR11MB4196namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Spinning off part of the discussion into a separa= te thread, but keeping lsr cc’ed on the discussion.

 

I'm trying to get a better understand of how and = where zoned IP addresses should be used in YANG data models.

 

RFC 4007 defines zones for IPv6 addresses, but no= t for IPv4.  Even though RFC 6991 bis has support for a zoned IPv4 add= ress, I'm struggling to see where zoned IPv4 addresses would ever really be= used.  Does anyone know of any usage or deployments anywhere?

 

For IPv6, my understanding is that the use of the= zone is to add the extra interface context for IPv6 link-local addresses.&= nbsp; Is there any use of zones outside of this interface context?

 

The current definition of ipv6-address type and t= he ip-address nodes in ietf-ip.yang seem to make zoned IP addresses hard to= use.  The canonical zone definition in RFC 6991 is for an (presumably= unique) numeric zone identifier, but in the YANG management layer it is unclear to me how one maps from this numer= ic id back to the interface name (e.g., for a client to construct a suitabl= e zoned IP address in configuration).   ietf-ip.yang uses ipv6-ad= dress-no-zone for interface IP addresses so it isn't possible to get the zone id associated with the link local addres= s.  This feels underspecified to me to tie these together and make thi= s work robustly.

 

I also have a general question about what is the = best way of modelling this in YANG.  Using a zoned ip address is one c= hoice to link an IP address and interface together.  Another choice is= to have a separate leaf to scope an IP address to a specific interface, wherever that is appropriate and required.  =

 

E.g., considering the IP RIB YANG model,

 

     |  | &n=
bsp;      +--rw v6ur:ipv6
     |  | &n=
bsp;         +--rw v6ur:route* [des=
tination-prefix]
     |  | &n=
bsp;            +--r=
w v6ur:destination-prefix
     |  | &n=
bsp;            |&nb=
sp;      inet:ipv6-prefix
     |  | &n=
bsp;            +--r=
w v6ur:description?          s=
tring
     |  | &n=
bsp;            +--r=
w v6ur:next-hop
     |  | &n=
bsp;            =
;   +--rw (v6ur:next-hop-options)
     |  | &n=
bsp;            =
;      +--:(v6ur:simple-next-hop)
     |  | &n=
bsp;            =
;      |  +--rw v6ur:outgoing-interface?=

     |  | &n=
bsp;            =
;      |  |     &nbs=
p; if:interface-ref
     |  | &n=
bsp;            =
;      |  +--rw v6ur:next-hop-address?
     |  | &n=
bsp;            =
;      |       =
   inet:ipv6-address
 
 

Given that an outgoing-interface is already provi= ded then it seems that using a zoned IP address as a next hop address here = would potentially be confusing, or at least not required because it is effe= ctively already scoped to the outgoing-interface anyway?  It seems like it provides redundant information.<= /p>

 

Considering another arbitrary protocol YANG modul= e RFC, this time TWAMP, rfc 8913, it seems that some of the ip-address fiel= ds in the model could in theory support link local addresses (e.g., the tes= t-session ones), but it is unclear to me whether that was ever the intent, or whether that even makes sense.&= nbsp; For the other uses of IP addresses that identify a client or server, = it feels like using link local addresses is much less compelling.  Mod= elling these all with the same type seems confusing.

 

<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp; +--rw test-session-request* [name]
<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--rw name       =
           string
<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--rw sender-ip?      =
      inet:ip-address
<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--rw sender-udp-port?     =
 union
<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--rw reflector-ip     &nbs=
p;    inet:ip-address
<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--rw reflector-udp-port?   inet:port-numb=
er
<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--rw timeout?      &n=
bsp;       uint64
<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--rw padding-length?     &=
nbsp; uint32
<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--rw test-packet-dscp?     inet=
:dscp
<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--rw start-time?      =
;     uint64
<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--rw repeat?      &nb=
sp;        uint32

<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--rw repeat-interval?     =
 uint32


<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--rw pm-reg-list* [pm-index]

<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    |  +--rw pm-index    uint16=



<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--ro state?      &nbs=
p;         test-session-state<=
/o:p>


<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">     |   &n=
bsp;    +--ro sid?       =
           string

 

 

E.g., I guess that you could use a zoned IP addre= ss for the reflector-ip, but I suspect that most implementations would not = anticipate/support this.  It feels to me that a cleaner way of modelli= ng this would be to not use a zoned IP address type at all and have a separate egress-interface if:-interface-ref= (perhaps under an if-feature, to enable and indicate support for test sess= ions over link-local addresses).

 

My overriding concern here, if we don’t cha= nge/fix the ip-address type, is that we will end up with a set of YANG mode= ls that:

  1. Models this be= haviour in different ways for different protocols/features.
    2. =
  2. Are entirely a= mbiguous to clients and implementations as to whether it makes sense to sup= port zoned IP addresses and/or whether zoned link-local addresses are suppo= rted for each leaf.
  3. We are creating models for a hypothetical use case rat= her than how these protocols are actually being deployed/implemented today.=   I.e., I am more concerned about getting IETF YANG modules usable for the 99% use case than the 1% use case.

 

Regards,

Rob

 

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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR11MB4196.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9ff88228-f717-4b4c-2a7f-08da1e1510ef X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Apr 2022 12:48:25.2508 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: RkGHgxfFy9sjTQvyD3YLZgMgfB05Kb3pxL/WdjEfO25wmkUTLgV5yiZq1SpNSKN3p2tNybc04MSwmDARZeKGbw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR11MB1518 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.135.124, xfe-aln-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:48:36 -0000 Hi Martin, I have several concerns with this approach: (1) I still think that the ip-address type name still ends up being non-int= uitive (especially for zoned IPv4 addresses - I would be surprised to find = that there is any deployment for these at all). I.e., the evidence seems t= o suggest that when engineers think of IP addresses, they don't seem to gen= erally think of zoned IP addresses. I doubt that any fiddling of the type = description is going to change that perception, not least when the definiti= on is different for OpenConfig and in vendors models and ip-address is wide= ly used in many published YANG models. (2) It means that clients of YANG models using the ip-address type have no = idea whether the server will support zones without either trying the config= uration (which could subsequently become unsupported in the future) or requ= iring an out-of-band discussion with the device vendor. For such as basic = type this doesn't seem great. (3) For IETF models, does that mean that new models should use ip-address-n= o-zone, and that we should change the approx. 200 usages in 40-50 published= RFCs? As mentioned previously, this doesn't seem pragmatic, or it will ta= ke the best part of a decade to happen. During that time the difference be= tween ip-address , ip-address-with-zone, and ip-address-no-zone will probab= ly cause even further confusion due to the ambiguity, and differences in im= plementations. (4) For NMDA models, it means that clients could (but probably never will) = receive zoned ip addresses back from . Further, if zoned IP a= ddresses are returned, then they are expected to use numerical IDs for the = zones, which seem to be effectively opaque to the client (other than unique= ness). Clients seem to have a few choices: ignore (error?) on zoned IP add= resses, ignore the zone (does that make sense), or have additional code to = handle a case that for 99% of users will probably never happen. My point b= eing that these is also a cost to keeping support for zones in the base ip-= address types. Regards, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Bj=F6rklund > Sent: 12 April 2022 08:26 > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > Cc: netmod@ietf.org; lsr@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-ls= a-yang- > 10.txt >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Here's another suggestion. We keep the ip-address pattern as is, but > document in the description that implementations do not have to > support the optional zone index. This would essentially document the > behavior of most current implementations. (This is actually what I > suggested in the earliest thread on this topic that I could find: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/KjHGtPqm9D4Q- > fRb2hVsf4sPuCU) >=20 >=20 >=20 > /martin >=20 >=20 > "Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if we = are > able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. > > > > I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the = v4/v6 > versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has been > given to the unusual variant of including zone information. > > > > Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me that m= ost > of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and the > intention was that IP addresses without zones was intended. At a rough > count, of the published RFC YANG models at github > YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: > > 86 uses of ip-address > > 68 uses of ipv4-address > > 66 uses of ipv6-address > > > > 1 use of ip-address-no-zone > > 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone > > 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone > > > > These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in RFCs. > At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may appear in = 40- > 50 RFCs. > > > > As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the OpenCon= fig > YANG modules: > > They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone > information and have defined separate types include zone information. > > There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP > addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, > approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the ietf-inet- > types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory some of t= hose > 58 entries could still intentionally be supporting zoned IP addresses, bu= t I > would expect that the vast majority would not. > > I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the sa= me way > in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have got the > definition right. > > > > I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address definition = is > effectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to imple= ment > it. I don't find that argument compelling, at least not with the current > definition of ip-address in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference between a= type > defined with an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values and a > type that is explicitly defined to included additional values in the allo= wable > value space. Further, I believe that a client just looking at the YANG m= odule > could reasonably expect a server that implements a data node using ip- > address would be expected to support IP zones, where they are meaningful, > or otherwise they should deviate that data node to indicate that they don= 't > conform to the model. > > > > We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. They = are > not going to start writing code to support zones just because they are in= the > model. They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone information. Perh= aps > some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't= . > > > > The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel at= all > appealing. This would take a significant amount of time/effort and I thi= nk > that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do this. Although= errata > could be used to point out the bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the= errata > would be "hold for document update" at best. Further, during the time th= at > it would take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrect usages of= ip- > address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed via scripted > checks/warnings). > > > > > > I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state whe= re the "ip- > address" type means what 99% of people expect it to mean, i.e., excluding > zone information. > > > > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change > to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a pos= sible > path that gains wider consensus: > > > > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and = keep > the -no-zone versions. > > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > > - Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations a= re > unlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the descr= iption > of the type more accurately reflects reality). > > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where zone= d > IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address with the > intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to ip-address-wit= h- > zone. > > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), the > expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to match tha= t of > ip-address-no-zone. > > > > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the > definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the "-= no- > zone" version at the same time. > > > > My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to > migrate. > > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it = aligns > to the OC definition). > > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an NB= C > change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change (impo= rt > revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). > > > > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable > consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with i= t. > > > > Regards, > > Rob > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: netmod On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 > > > To: Christian Hopps > > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extende= d-lsa- > > > yang-10.txt > > > > > > Hi - > > > > > > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > > .. > > > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that > > > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused > > > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in > > > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's point)= . So, > > > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the A= D in > > > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. > > > > > > That's not the impression one gets from modules like > > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt > > > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is willing > > > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of > > > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - > > > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the > > > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so > > > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually > > > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > netmod mailing list > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Thu Apr 14 06:22:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A439D3A195F; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 06:22:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Yes, this means coexistance of > > > > inet:ip-address and ip-address-with-zone until YANG is getting > > > > replaced. > > > > > > But then what would you do with inet:host? > > > > > > > I would define ip-address-with-zone to be the same as ip-address > > (i.e., with an optional zone index) and then I would then use > > ip-address-with-zone instead of ip-address in inet:host (like we are > > all going to replace the deprecated ip-address with either > > ip-address-with-zone or ip-address-no-zone in all modules in the > > future to avoid depending on a deprecated definition). > > But if people believe that we have a big problem that ip-address may > contain a zone index, don't we have the same problem w/ inet:host? > Don't we have to deprecate also inet:host for the same reason? The problem is with the name of the ip-address type. I assume people might even be happy that a (host, port-number) tupe behaves as many applications around us do. > (To be clear: Personally, I do not think that deprecating these > typedefs is the best solution) > > > It does not make sense to me to have a type mandating a zone since on > > all systems I know of the zone index shows up only when needed (and > > creating yet another union seems overkill). > > Did anyone suggest this? I thought ip-address-with-zone was supposed to be > exactly what ip-address is today. This is how I understood Kent. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Apr 14 06:24:11 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6333A1968; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 06:23:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=4668.se header.b=is0ixk+J; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Ur7IuNMs Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id leEAPsCBn26W; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 06:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B73EB3A1918; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 06:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5035C0043; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:23:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=4668.se; h=cc:cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1649942614; x= 1650029014; bh=3Zilf8T1TOgkVvpSXcNGjbQo2NBxGcggK9imP34nSV4=; b=i s0ixk+JD3bUe4d2j+3n17vkhJihfjaCjO7yyI8Pj89sPoGg2Ay2WPYxbhDYqZFHx mCtQVm9aSPhlIxwUVlLlI4DgKH6o2ru5pva9cfk5iXXmDfigOd7UOsVUgwiZBpqb EQY0hY2GPJDRgMzT9QhLyxfwRb+ZxCgO5s3djJmmJYozHvT4uxcTo2WlB1hePelg RvgsiqAWHahNE/zrZD+iig0jyC+T3UkftgVK2TzzSPcdS7TmU9OXDrB06CmVp0yd JbqdnBCH+UqDoVrks2/vR4hwGdfUYiV6BEzLQXn39yz8efeeVEBnNc7MBcy8wjm3 gmSC4+fjZsiQPTrtBsw3g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t=1649942614; x=1650029014; bh=3Zilf8T1TOgkV vpSXcNGjbQo2NBxGcggK9imP34nSV4=; b=Ur7IuNMsUHKqPg5OLmSn72kEstJ3U VUTuZgzcJeyTP9YUuMR68e6KFcxrQkwgz+Mt3ykQvTLomuTftEaXvmdUxnIO8yIL 2e8vk7TBB8DeGpymVk6Z6P2EDyH/hXMuaRC+L3ggwiMx8M7hIr6tzHhHo8FBOp1C 8yGCjmRA92llVt4jCdDQxFgaEJ2Pili9iuF0UgxJUHFtM/a4ObTanIBpmSv9+g7r aidoCKjLdlgwMa5Em33JH5V3Qbm5nxvIKjLn3h5ZQmk9WvxiAuZ2bMdSZXsrrkBp ZNJ8v+mLP2Xocs+AFVzTRcs5sIs0nTQms95o/1HSjlKol1vtTQsEwAyXA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrudelfedgieegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffkffvuffhjghfofggtgfgsehtqh ertdertddunecuhfhrohhmpeforghrthhinhcuuehjnphrkhhluhhnugcuoehmsghjodhi vghtfhesgeeiieekrdhsvgeqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepiedttefhtdfhkeetleetke evieefhfduudeukedvfeelgedtveeggfetfeejgfelnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgep tdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhgsjhdoihgvthhfseegieeikedrshgv X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 15:23:31 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20220414.152331.1522036488630734842.id@4668.se> To: rwilton@cisco.com Cc: netmod@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rklund?= In-Reply-To: References: <20220412.092537.1752383485754368549.id@4668.se> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:23:59 -0000 Hi, First of all, I agree that if we were to design this from scratch, I think we should have a type for just an ip address, and use a second leaf for the zone (or interface). "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" wrote: > Hi Martin, > = > I have several concerns with this approach: > = > (1) I still think that the ip-address type name still ends up being > non-intuitive Agreed. > (especially for zoned IPv4 addresses - I would be > surprised to find that there is any deployment for these at all). Maybe, I have no idea. What I *do* know is that lots of users (probably most users) of YANG modules are not active in the IETF. > I.e., the evidence seems to suggest that when engineers think of IP > addresses, they don't seem to generally think of zoned IP addresses. > I doubt that any fiddling of the type description is going to change > that perception, not least when the definition is different for > OpenConfig and in vendors models and ip-address is widely used in man= y > published YANG models. > = > (2) It means that clients of YANG models using the ip-address type > have no idea whether the server will support zones without either > trying the configuration (which could subsequently become unsupported= > in the future) or requiring an out-of-band discussion with the device= > vendor. For such as basic type this doesn't seem great. But this is what we have had for 12 years, and from what I know we haven't seen any real issues with this. > (3) For IETF models, does that mean that new models should use > ip-address-no-zone, and that we should change the approx. 200 usages > in 40-50 published RFCs? As mentioned previously, this doesn't seem > pragmatic, or it will take the best part of a decade to happen. > During that time the difference between ip-address , > ip-address-with-zone, and ip-address-no-zone will probably cause even= > further confusion due to the ambiguity, and differences in > implementations. No, the pragmatic solution I propose is to only change the description of ip-address (and v4/v6) to match current implementations; i.e., make it clear that an implementation doesn't have to support the optional zone index. Not ideal, but this is what is implemented and it seems to work. /martin > (4) For NMDA models, it means that clients could (but probably never > will) receive zoned ip addresses back from . Further, i= f > zoned IP addresses are returned, then they are expected to use > numerical IDs for the zones, which seem to be effectively opaque to > the client (other than uniqueness). Clients seem to have a few > choices: ignore (error?) on zoned IP addresses, ignore the zone (does= > that make sense), or have additional code to handle a case that for > 99% of users will probably never happen. My point being that these i= s > also a cost to keeping support for zones in the base ip-address types= .= > = > Regards, > Rob > = > = > = > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Martin Bj=F6rklund > > Sent: 12 April 2022 08:26 > > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > Cc: netmod@ietf.org; lsr@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang- > > 10.txt > > = > > Hi, > > = > > Here's another suggestion. We keep the ip-address pattern as is, b= ut > > document in the description that implementations do not have to > > support the optional zone index. This would essentially document t= he > > behavior of most current implementations. (This is actually what I= > > suggested in the earliest thread on this topic that I could find: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/KjHGtPqm9D4Q- > > fRb2hVsf4sPuCU) > > = > > = > > = > > /martin > > = > > = > > "Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" wro= te: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice = if we > > > are > > able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. > > > > > > I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (an= d the > > > v4/v6 > > versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has be= en > > given to the unusual variant of including zone information. > > > > > > Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me = that > > > most > > of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and= > > the > > intention was that IP addresses without zones was intended. At a > > rough > > count, of the published RFC YANG models at github > > YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: > > > 86 uses of ip-address > > > 68 uses of ipv4-address > > > 66 uses of ipv6-address > > > > > > 1 use of ip-address-no-zone > > > 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone > > > 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone > > > > > > These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in= > > > RFCs. > > At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may appe= ar > > in 40- > > 50 RFCs. > > > > > > As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the > > > OpenConfig > > YANG modules: > > > They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zo= ne > > information and have defined separate types include zone informatio= n. > > > There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig= IP > > addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, > > approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the > > ietf-inet- > > types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory som= e > > of those > > 58 entries could still intentionally be supporting zoned IP address= es, > > but I > > would expect that the vast majority would not. > > > I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in = the > > > same way > > in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have got = the > > definition right. > > > > > > I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address defin= ition > > > is > > effectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to= > > implement > > it. I don't find that argument compelling, at least not with the > > current > > definition of ip-address in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference > > between a type > > defined with an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values= > > and a > > type that is explicitly defined to included additional values in th= e > > allowable > > value space. Further, I believe that a client just looking at the > > YANG module > > could reasonably expect a server that implements a data node using = ip- > > address would be expected to support IP zones, where they are > > meaningful, > > or otherwise they should deviate that data node to indicate that th= ey > > don't > > conform to the model. > > > > > > We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. = They > > > are > > not going to start writing code to support zones just because they = are > > in the > > model. They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone information.= > > Perhaps > > some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, but probably most= > > won't. > > > > > > The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't f= eel > > > at all > > appealing. This would take a significant amount of time/effort and= I > > think > > that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do this. > > Although errata > > could be used to point out the bug, then can't be used to fix it, a= ll > > the errata > > would be "hold for document update" at best. Further, during the t= ime > > that > > it would take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrect usa= ges > > of ip- > > address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed via scripte= d > > checks/warnings). > > > > > > > > > I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a sta= te > > > where the "ip- > > address" type means what 99% of people expect it to mean, i.e., > > excluding > > zone information. > > > > > > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible ch= ange > > to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be= a > > possible > > path that gains wider consensus: > > > > > > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > > > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions= ) and > > > keep > > the -no-zone versions. > > > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > > > - Although the type allows for zone information, many implementat= ions > > > - are > > unlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the= > > description > > of the type more accurately reflects reality). > > > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use wher= e zoned > > IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address wi= th > > the > > intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to > > ip-address-with- > > zone. > > > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published= ), the > > expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to mat= ch > > that of > > ip-address-no-zone. > > > > > > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change t= he > > definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate = the > > "-no- > > zone" version at the same time. > > > > > > My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > > > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have ti= me to > > migrate. > > > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus th= at it > > > aligns > > to the OC definition). > > > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > > > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as= an > > > NBC > > change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change= > > (import > > revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). > > > > > > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a worka= ble > > consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live > > with it. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: netmod On Behalf Of Randy Presu= hn > > > > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 > > > > To: Christian Hopps > > > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > > > > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa- > > > > yang-10.txt > > > > > > > > Hi - > > > > > > > > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > > > .. > > > > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting= that > > > > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been mi= sused > > > > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations= in > > > > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's > > > > > point). So, > > > > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that= the AD > > > > > in > > > > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. > > > > > > > > That's not the impression one gets from modules like > > > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.tx= t > > > > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is wil= ling > > > > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter = of > > > > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - > > > > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the > > > > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so > > > > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually > > > > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premis= e. > > > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > netmod mailing list > > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > netmod mailing list > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Thu Apr 14 06:48:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F7E3A1A5D; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 06:47:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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The IPv6 working group has a recurring debate on the usage of zoned IPv6 address in URLs [1], where the debate is about the question whether the % needs to be escaped or not. I do not know where the latest iteration stopped, but details can be found in RFC 6874 and draft-carpenter-6man-rfc6874bis-03. Philip Homburg's RIPE Labs note [2] might also be an interesting read. According to this, getaddrinfo() actually deals with zoned addresses (and hence even data model implementation that pass data to getaddrinfo() to obtain socket addresses may do the right thing.) My view is that down in the network layer models, you often know the interface by context and ipv6-address-no-zone is sufficient. If you go to application space, you really want "ipv6-address-with-zone" by default in order to support link-local addresses. /js [1] http://[fe80::4d9:ff04:4fa6:7980%en0]/ [2] https://labs.ripe.net/author/philip_homburg/whats-the-deal-with-ipv6-link-local-addresses/ -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Apr 14 07:04:17 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0174A3A1ADB; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 07:04:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=4668.se header.b=az5DCaRN; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=XR3AIUdA Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LToGYkl3mxIY; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 07:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89C103A1A39; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 07:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79725C01E3; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:03:48 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=4668.se; h=cc:cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1649945028; x= 1650031428; bh=DDw11DyttQtnfz8uXyZKoNzThsmgTp6YWyzm8SCiUDo=; b=a z5DCaRNWSudE+uPNqLpX7lvVDbm+RpraxmxipeOXyxZT48V1fni6m4D0eK0Iukw0 zZ/DpoeSNudeACYMYdJvEet1RuCn2dsZ0drGD5oZqyFX2nAPlfW6zD6kOgSulm4m +jsHwazvc65dSHYTzKGMPPGM5720z00GU6gb8c4YNky5uivmz1rdV3eZfondcboY JON5CbVVsqfEdz1FvrWuudEu3nEw0ZjtsKEMff0WwJxWVM1IrfrHp12Y2VN9Vhfr 8VcnTls3w9YZYUKe5ZEnC+5rdOjC6Bm9KJu56R1G0gylmkCBGmBHMK6Q2WgQ0llf rWl+oHrK64GeOAgb6Am3w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t=1649945028; x=1650031428; bh=DDw11DyttQtnf z8uXyZKoNzThsmgTp6YWyzm8SCiUDo=; b=XR3AIUdA5Ex/JA8sScN7kL2MhRHRp 0ds2c6tAzZv/Zana4ibDvktNJUaIZBykLhdgVd13G0F5uZcBuSduw5ukwmgM/4lq V3q10GPdiWkhkyA/+Tb/ITkdy6yBZ+1JyVnWyXIq9tEd0mHuUfoJNQXLNdJshrEV iu+S3Sn4fhEZKtpMUHw95KtdBFJ6CiYqO3JY/4LQbVzj77nMVOMi5064e4SXRMrW yyedlvFiWeesgsvj3y+BmuDLTfLPiJtRTym+YbDhWfkIh19IdM2FxEGI+7/syAlM g8SJMFJP8AFh3MDxfGM8N9+4UY8Cgb5cDQ61jaBu/cU4d7igftYv6Ec4w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrudelfedgjeefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffkffvuffhjghfofggtgfgsehtqh ertdertddunecuhfhrohhmpeforghrthhinhcuuehjnphrkhhluhhnugcuoehmsghjodhi vghtfhesgeeiieekrdhsvgeqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgeeggfegtdduteegvdeghe duleevuedvgfefjedukeeuheetgfelieeiuddtffetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehrihhpvgdr nhgvthdpjhgrtghosghsqdhunhhivhgvrhhsihhthidruggvnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuih iivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhgsjhdoihgvthhfseegieeikedr shgv X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:03:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 16:03:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20220414.160345.1807693114840953491.id@4668.se> To: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Cc: rwilton@cisco.com, lsr@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rklund?= In-Reply-To: <20220414134730.62e3fyhl7e4pvuz4@anna> References: <20220414.152331.1522036488630734842.id@4668.se> <20220414134730.62e3fyhl7e4pvuz4@anna> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 14:04:08 -0000 I thought the discussion was only about ipv4? /martin J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder wrote: > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 03:23:31PM +0200, Martin Bj=F6rklund wrote: > > Hi, > > = > > First of all, I agree that if we were to design this from scratch, = I > > think we should have a type for just an ip address, and use a secon= d > > leaf for the zone (or interface). > > > = > The notation 'fe80::4d9:ff04:4fa6:7980%en0' is widely supported in > application space. The IPv6 working group has a recurring debate on > the usage of zoned IPv6 address in URLs [1], where the debate is abou= t > the question whether the % needs to be escaped or not. I do not know > where the latest iteration stopped, but details can be found in RFC > 6874 and draft-carpenter-6man-rfc6874bis-03. > = > Philip Homburg's RIPE Labs note [2] might also be an interesting > read. According to this, getaddrinfo() actually deals with zoned > addresses (and hence even data model implementation that pass data to= > getaddrinfo() to obtain socket addresses may do the right thing.) > = > My view is that down in the network layer models, you often know the > interface by context and ipv6-address-no-zone is sufficient. If you g= o > to application space, you really want "ipv6-address-with-zone" by > default in order to support link-local addresses. > = > /js > = > [1] http://[fe80::4d9:ff04:4fa6:7980%en0]/ > = > [2] https://labs.ripe.net/author/philip_homburg/whats-the-deal-with-i= pv6-link-local-addresses/ > = > -- = > J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German= y > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Apr 14 08:01:56 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F3453A07C0; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 08:00:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.605 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.605 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:23:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220414.152331.1522036488630734842.id@4668.se> <20220414134730.62e3fyhl7e4pvuz4@anna> <20220414.160345.1807693114840953491.id@4668.se> <1347E93F-F193-4677-8070-5E28EDB2F14F@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1347E93F-F193-4677-8070-5E28EDB2F14F@cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:23:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_Bj=C3=B6rklund?= , "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000147abd05dc9fb8d0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 16:23:57 -0000 --000000000000147abd05dc9fb8d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 8:01 AM Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > While RFC 4001 really didn't need to extend the zone index to IPv4, the > conversation also pertains to IPv6 address types. At least RFC 4001 got i= t > right by not making the zone index part of the default types and defining > ipv4z and ipv6z. > > So is this a correct summary: - zone index is not used in IPv4 at all - zone index is not configured by a client in IPv6 at all - zone index is assigned by the system (as needed) to IPv6 link-local addresses I want to add a server option in our code to always reject (or alter) an edit that contains a zone index. I need to know the consensus on whether it is OK to ignore a zone index from a client. Nothing in RFC 6241 suggests that this is OK for . Thanks, > Acee > > Andy > =EF=BB=BFOn 4/14/22, 10:04 AM, "Lsr on behalf of Martin Bj=C3=B6rklund" < > lsr-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mbj+ietf@4668.se> wrote: > > I thought the discussion was only about ipv4? > > > /martin > > > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 03:23:31PM +0200, Martin Bj=C3=B6rklund wro= te: > > > Hi, > > > > > > First of all, I agree that if we were to design this from scratch= , > I > > > think we should have a type for just an ip address, and use a > second > > > leaf for the zone (or interface). > > > > > > > The notation 'fe80::4d9:ff04:4fa6:7980%en0' is widely supported in > > application space. The IPv6 working group has a recurring debate on > > the usage of zoned IPv6 address in URLs [1], where the debate is > about > > the question whether the % needs to be escaped or not. I do not kno= w > > where the latest iteration stopped, but details can be found in RFC > > 6874 and draft-carpenter-6man-rfc6874bis-03. > > > > Philip Homburg's RIPE Labs note [2] might also be an interesting > > read. According to this, getaddrinfo() actually deals with zoned > > addresses (and hence even data model implementation that pass data = to > > getaddrinfo() to obtain socket addresses may do the right thing.) > > > > My view is that down in the network layer models, you often know th= e > > interface by context and ipv6-address-no-zone is sufficient. If you > go > > to application space, you really want "ipv6-address-with-zone" by > > default in order to support link-local addresses. > > > > /js > > > > [1] http://[fe80::4d9:ff04:4fa6:7980%en0]/ > > > > [2] > https://labs.ripe.net/author/philip_homburg/whats-the-deal-with-ipv6-link= -local-addresses/ > > > > -- > > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Br= emen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | > Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000147abd05dc9fb8d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 8:01 AM Acee = Lindem (acee) <acee=3D40ci= sco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
While RFC 4001 really didn't need to extend the z= one index to IPv4, the conversation also pertains to IPv6 address types. At= least RFC 4001 got it right by not making the zone index part of the defau= lt types and defining ipv4z and ipv6z.


So is this a correct summary:

=C2=A0- zone index is not used in IPv4 at all
= =C2=A0- zone index is not configured by a client in IPv6 at all
= =C2=A0- zone index is assigned by the system (as needed) to IPv6 link-local= addresses

I want to add a server option in our co= de to always reject (or alter)
an edit that contains a zone index= .=C2=A0 I need to know the consensus on
whether it is OK to ignor= e a zone index from a client.
Nothing in RFC 6241 suggests that t= his is OK for <edit-config>.


Thanks,
Acee


Andy
=C2=A0
=EF=BB=BFOn 4/14/22, 10:04 AM, "Lsr on behalf of Martin Bj=C3=B6rklund= " <lsr-bo= unces@ietf.org on behalf of mbj+ietf@4668.se> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I thought the discussion was only about ipv4?


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 /martin


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-u= niversity.de> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 03:23:31PM +0200, Martin Bj=C3= =B6rklund wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Hi,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > First of all, I agree that if we were to design thi= s from scratch, I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > think we should have a type for just an ip address,= and use a second
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > leaf for the zone (or interface).
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The notation 'fe80::4d9:ff04:4fa6:7980%en0' is w= idely supported in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > application space. The IPv6 working group has a recurrin= g debate on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the usage of zoned IPv6 address in URLs [1], where the d= ebate is about
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the question whether the % needs to be escaped or not. I= do not know
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > where the latest iteration stopped, but details can be f= ound in RFC
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 6874 and draft-carpenter-6man-rfc6874bis-03.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Philip Homburg's RIPE Labs note [2] might also be an= interesting
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > read. According to this, getaddrinfo() actually deals wi= th zoned
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > addresses (and hence even data model implementation that= pass data to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > getaddrinfo() to obtain socket addresses may do the righ= t thing.)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > My view is that down in the network layer models, you of= ten know the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > interface by context and ipv6-address-no-zone is suffici= ent. If you go
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to application space, you really want "ipv6-address= -with-zone" by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > default in order to support link-local addresses.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > /js
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > [1] http://[fe80::4d9:ff04:4fa6:7980%en0]/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > [2] https://labs.ripe.net/author/philip_homburg/whats-the-deal-wit= h-ipv6-link-local-addresses/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lsr mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lsr@ietf.or= g
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr=

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
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Thu, 14 Apr 2022 16:36:24 +0000 From: tom petch To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "netmod@ietf.org" CC: "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IP address zones in YANG Thread-Index: AdhP6h4ce00eyn+tRFmQHRzYbSstMgAMWuLE Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 16:36:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9abf0386-8eae-478a-c425-08da1e34ea66 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM6PR07MB4851:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9abf0386-8eae-478a-c425-08da1e34ea66 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Apr 2022 16:36:24.5301 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: K8xb3FWQckDXvMneqXevlRd/j9WX1Nrc8EhVaWrSLbc5HdZjURvNdPYzlf8Z/jzlnSFqeVyOtb/4U/8V/W0U4A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR07MB4851 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IP address zones in YANG X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 16:36:37 -0000 =0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: Lsr on behalf of Rob Wilton (rwilton) =0A= Sent: 14 April 2022 13:40=0A= To: netmod@ietf.org=0A= Cc: lsr@ietf.org=0A= Subject: [Lsr] IP address zones in YANG=0A= =0A= Spinning off part of the discussion into a separate thread, but keeping lsr= cc=92ed on the discussion.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= I'm trying to get a better understand of how and where zoned IP addresses s= hould be used in YANG data models.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= RFC 4007 defines zones for IPv6 addresses, but not for IPv4. Even though R= FC 6991 bis has support for a zoned IPv4 address, I'm struggling to see whe= re zoned IPv4 addresses would ever really be used. Does anyone know of any= usage or deployments anywhere?=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= For IPv6, my understanding is that the use of the zone is to add the extra = interface context for IPv6 link-local addresses. Is there any use of zones= outside of this interface context?=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Yes.=0A= =0A= See RFC4007.=0A= =0A= My take is that there is always a zone associated with an IPv6 address but = that it may be omitted when it is the default, which it usually is for glob= al scope addresses. For link local, it may not be since some link local ad= dresses appear on all links - e.g. FE80::1 - so when a node has multiple = interfaces - the norm for me in datacentres- and the application needs to s= end a packet over the correct interface - e.g. so that it has the right lin= k layer address to be acceptable to the recipient - then the application, w= hatever that is that invokes the sending of a packet, must use the correct = zone to identify the correct interface.=0A= =0A= With only one interface, then it is unlikely to be a concern. With global = scope addresses, it is unlikely to be a concern. With link local, I always= stop and think about zones - IPv6 101!=0A= =0A= In passing, I note that VRRP requires a link local address with IPv6; I am = wondering if it requires zones in the YANG.=0A= =0A= I was unaware of the existence of zones with IPv4 until I came across them = in the YANG types but that is my ignorance - they were always there1!=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= =0A= The current definition of ipv6-address type and the ip-address nodes in iet= f-ip.yang seem to make zoned IP addresses hard to use. The canonical zone = definition in RFC 6991 is for an (presumably unique) numeric zone identifie= r, but in the YANG management layer it is unclear to me how one maps from t= his numeric id back to the interface name (e.g., for a client to construct = a suitable zoned IP address in configuration). ietf-ip.yang uses ipv6-add= ress-no-zone for interface IP addresses so it isn't possible to get the zon= e id associated with the link local address. This feels underspecified to = me to tie these together and make this work robustly.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= I also have a general question about what is the best way of modelling this= in YANG. Using a zoned ip address is one choice to link an IP address and= interface together. Another choice is to have a separate leaf to scope an= IP address to a specific interface, wherever that is appropriate and requi= red.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= E.g., considering the IP RIB YANG model,=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= | | +--rw v6ur:ipv6=0A= =0A= | | +--rw v6ur:route* [destination-prefix]=0A= =0A= | | +--rw v6ur:destination-prefix=0A= =0A= | | | inet:ipv6-prefix=0A= =0A= | | +--rw v6ur:description? string=0A= =0A= | | +--rw v6ur:next-hop=0A= =0A= | | +--rw (v6ur:next-hop-options)=0A= =0A= | | +--:(v6ur:simple-next-hop)=0A= =0A= | | | +--rw v6ur:outgoing-interface?=0A= =0A= | | | | if:interface-ref=0A= =0A= | | | +--rw v6ur:next-hop-address?=0A= =0A= | | | inet:ipv6-address=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Given that an outgoing-interface is already provided then it seems that usi= ng a zoned IP address as a next hop address here would potentially be confu= sing, or at least not required because it is effectively already scoped to = the outgoing-interface anyway? It seems like it provides redundant informa= tion.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Considering another arbitrary protocol YANG module RFC, this time TWAMP, rf= c 8913, it seems that some of the ip-address fields in the model could in t= heory support link local addresses (e.g., the test-session ones), but it is= unclear to me whether that was ever the intent, or whether that even makes= sense. For the other uses of IP addresses that identify a client or serve= r, it feels like using link local addresses is much less compelling. Model= ling these all with the same type seems confusing.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= | +--rw test-session-request* [name]=0A= =0A= | +--rw name string=0A= =0A= | +--rw sender-ip? inet:ip-address=0A= =0A= | +--rw sender-udp-port? union=0A= =0A= | +--rw reflector-ip inet:ip-address=0A= =0A= | +--rw reflector-udp-port? inet:port-number=0A= =0A= | +--rw timeout? uint64=0A= =0A= | +--rw padding-length? uint32=0A= =0A= | +--rw test-packet-dscp? inet:dscp=0A= =0A= | +--rw start-time? uint64=0A= =0A= | +--rw repeat? uint32=0A= =0A= | +--rw repeat-interval? uint32=0A= =0A= | +--rw pm-reg-list* [pm-index]=0A= =0A= | | +--rw pm-index uint16=0A= =0A= | +--ro state? test-session-state=0A= =0A= | +--ro sid? string=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= E.g., I guess that you could use a zoned IP address for the reflector-ip, b= ut I suspect that most implementations would not anticipate/support this. = It feels to me that a cleaner way of modelling this would be to not use a z= oned IP address type at all and have a separate egress-interface if:-interf= ace-ref (perhaps under an if-feature, to enable and indicate support for te= st sessions over link-local addresses).=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= My overriding concern here, if we don=92t change/fix the ip-address type, i= s that we will end up with a set of YANG models that:=0A= =0A= 1. Models this behaviour in different ways for different protocols/featu= res.=0A= 2. Are entirely ambiguous to clients and implementations as to whether i= t makes sense to support zoned IP addresses and/or whether zoned link-local= addresses are supported for each leaf.=0A= 3. We are creating models for a hypothetical use case rather than how th= ese protocols are actually being deployed/implemented today. I.e., I am mo= re concerned about getting IETF YANG modules usable for the 99% use case th= an the 1% use case.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Regards,=0A= =0A= Rob=0A= =0A= =0A= From nobody Thu Apr 14 10:05:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC023A1560; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:05:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.604 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.604 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: NOhMxmSgH7u91NEgTrl+M97cRUpFNJwSTpjuPAE0OgiT0XFF7dAa1KfcMzPBHCMtRUx2LlnX3SXwxfkJS+35RjAEBdFCjhDvbI+qBwZHZ+k= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM9P190MB1283 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:38:50 -0000 On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 09:23:38AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > So is this a correct summary: > > - zone index is not used in IPv4 at all There are link-local IPv4 addresses, they are less wide-spread since IPv4 stacks generally do not auto-configure IPv4 link-local addresses. Nobody will be able to confirm "not used at all", this questions is somewhat rhetoric since nobody can answer it. > - zone index is not configured by a client in IPv6 at all Configuring zone indexes is required in many cases to reach services that are only reachable via link-local addresses. I mentioned the DNS resolver example and this applies to pretty much any transport layer endpoint. This is why by design (and not by accident) the with zone version of ip-address is used in the inet:host typedef. > - zone index is assigned by the system (as needed) to IPv6 link-local > addresses A link-local address exists on a link and as such does not need a zone index as long it is used on the link. However, when you want to refer to a link-local address on a system with more than one link, then the link-local address is ambiguous and to disambiguate things you either specify in adding the interface to be used or you embed the zone index in the address. Since application code usually assumes that a transport address is an (ip-address, port) tuple, people converged on adding the zone to the ip address (instead of rewriting all APIs to use (ip-address, port, interface) tuples. The zoned IP address notation is meanwhile widely supported. This is why we have, for example, RFC 6874 (but the IPv6 folks have a reoccuring debate about the question whether the % needs to be percent encoded or not, draft-carpenter-6man-rfc6874bis-03). > I want to add a server option in our code to always reject (or alter) > an edit that contains a zone index. I need to know the consensus on > whether it is OK to ignore a zone index from a client. It is your choice to design a product that will not work with link-local addresses. For IETF data models, I expect that the bar is higher and that people can expect that IETF data models are written to also work with link-local addresses. If implementers than decide that their users do not need to work with link-local addresses, so be it, you can make your server reject the optional zone index. But others can decide that they customers can also work with link-local addresses. If we blindly remove the zone index from ip-address, then the IETF would break data models for those who consider link-local addresses a first class citizen. > Nothing in RFC 6241 suggests that this is OK for . I have no clue what you mean. If your server recceives a value that your server does not support, you reject the value. /js PS: I recall the side meetings with IPv6 people to sort out how we add proper IPv6 support to MIB modules, which led to RFC 4001, which later influenced the YANG typedefs. Almost 20 years later (and IPv6 deployed at a much larger scale) I find myself in a discussion where people question that we need to support link-local addresses. This is very irritating. Apparently, getaddrinfo() implementations tend to handle zoned link-local addresses just fine and any code that passes a zoned ip address string to getaddrinfo() will likely return you a socket address with the sin6_scope_id filled in properly. You actually have to do extra work to prevent the right thing to happen if your code passes strings on to getaddinfo(). I am puzzled why people want to do this. -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Apr 14 12:47:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDFCF3A10D9; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:46:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WAXlqE03D1_R; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D48A23A10D5; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4KfVMq4RCYz6GWNN; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:46:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1649965607; bh=jKku9yEI5buUXuxsg7z1zqnUSE4D9iG9/dJ8ReD5M4s=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=hBnFrBEIf+cL6JFpZsStuJYrcfniTO5q4sTL1ItpdNE67HVuC9mkf6h+hqOJfpQ/D Ag7QU8vlNxliRx0wesCqDFdW0UfAsxIN8JfNS3M0PzHLm3rBAIO3Tpa9WWl4yCrHTZ hgoDT6t8gUgPwp65Hph6nbxsi8qqVQPwFjoh7JGQ= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.21.218] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KfVMp6G70z6GBNx; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 15:46:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Andy Bierman Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" References: <20220414.152331.1522036488630734842.id@4668.se> <20220414134730.62e3fyhl7e4pvuz4@anna> <20220414.160345.1807693114840953491.id@4668.se> <1347E93F-F193-4677-8070-5E28EDB2F14F@cisco.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:46:53 -0000 That does summary below does not match what others have said on this thread. Yours, Joel On 4/14/2022 12:23 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 8:01 AM Acee Lindem (acee) > > wrote: > > While RFC 4001 really didn't need to extend the zone index to IPv4, > the conversation also pertains to IPv6 address types. At least RFC > 4001 got it right by not making the zone index part of the default > types and defining ipv4z and ipv6z. > > > So is this a correct summary: > >  - zone index is not used in IPv4 at all >  - zone index is not configured by a client in IPv6 at all >  - zone index is assigned by the system (as needed) to IPv6 link-local > addresses > > I want to add a server option in our code to always reject (or alter) > an edit that contains a zone index.  I need to know the consensus on > whether it is OK to ignore a zone index from a client. > Nothing in RFC 6241 suggests that this is OK for . > > > Thanks, > Acee > > > Andy > > On 4/14/22, 10:04 AM, "Lsr on behalf of Martin Björklund" > on behalf of > mbj+ietf@4668.se > wrote: > >     I thought the discussion was only about ipv4? > > >     /martin > > >     Jürgen Schönwälder > wrote: >     > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 03:23:31PM +0200, Martin Björklund wrote: >     > > Hi, >     > > >     > > First of all, I agree that if we were to design this from > scratch, I >     > > think we should have a type for just an ip address, and use > a second >     > > leaf for the zone (or interface). >     > > >     > >     > The notation 'fe80::4d9:ff04:4fa6:7980%en0' is widely > supported in >     > application space. The IPv6 working group has a recurring > debate on >     > the usage of zoned IPv6 address in URLs [1], where the debate > is about >     > the question whether the % needs to be escaped or not. I do > not know >     > where the latest iteration stopped, but details can be found > in RFC >     > 6874 and draft-carpenter-6man-rfc6874bis-03. >     > >     > Philip Homburg's RIPE Labs note [2] might also be an interesting >     > read. According to this, getaddrinfo() actually deals with zoned >     > addresses (and hence even data model implementation that pass > data to >     > getaddrinfo() to obtain socket addresses may do the right thing.) >     > >     > My view is that down in the network layer models, you often > know the >     > interface by context and ipv6-address-no-zone is sufficient. > If you go >     > to application space, you really want "ipv6-address-with-zone" by >     > default in order to support link-local addresses. >     > >     > /js >     > >     > [1] http://[fe80::4d9:ff04:4fa6:7980%en0]/ >     > >     > [2] > https://labs.ripe.net/author/philip_homburg/whats-the-deal-with-ipv6-link-local-addresses/ > >     > >     > -- >     > Jürgen Schönwälder              Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >     > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen > | Germany >     > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 >   > > >     _______________________________________________ >     Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Thu Apr 14 12:48:54 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EFA63A10F8 for ; 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Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:48:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220414.152331.1522036488630734842.id@4668.se> <20220414134730.62e3fyhl7e4pvuz4@anna> <20220414.160345.1807693114840953491.id@4668.se> <1347E93F-F193-4677-8070-5E28EDB2F14F@cisco.com> <20220414193836.ufqzfhnitb5l5w3h@anna> In-Reply-To: <20220414193836.ufqzfhnitb5l5w3h@anna> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:48:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= , Andy Bierman , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_Bj=C3=B6rklund?= , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000616a005dca2946c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:48:37 -0000 --0000000000000616a005dca2946c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:38 PM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 09:23:38AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > So is this a correct summary: > > > > - zone index is not used in IPv4 at all > > There are link-local IPv4 addresses, they are less wide-spread since > IPv4 stacks generally do not auto-configure IPv4 link-local addresses. > Nobody will be able to confirm "not used at all", this questions is > somewhat rhetoric since nobody can answer it. > > > - zone index is not configured by a client in IPv6 at all > > Configuring zone indexes is required in many cases to reach services > that are only reachable via link-local addresses. I mentioned the DNS > resolver example and this applies to pretty much any transport layer > endpoint. This is why by design (and not by accident) the with zone > version of ip-address is used in the inet:host typedef. > > > - zone index is assigned by the system (as needed) to IPv6 link-local > > addresses > > A link-local address exists on a link and as such does not need a zone > index as long it is used on the link. However, when you want to refer > to a link-local address on a system with more than one link, then the > link-local address is ambiguous and to disambiguate things you either > specify in adding the interface to be used or you embed the zone index > in the address. Since application code usually assumes that a > transport address is an (ip-address, port) tuple, people converged on > adding the zone to the ip address (instead of rewriting all APIs to > use (ip-address, port, interface) tuples. The zoned IP address > notation is meanwhile widely supported. This is why we have, for > example, RFC 6874 (but the IPv6 folks have a reoccuring debate about > the question whether the % needs to be percent encoded or not, > draft-carpenter-6man-rfc6874bis-03). > > > I want to add a server option in our code to always reject (or alter) > > an edit that contains a zone index. I need to know the consensus on > > whether it is OK to ignore a zone index from a client. > > It is your choice to design a product that will not work with > link-local addresses. For IETF data models, I expect that the bar is > higher and that people can expect that IETF data models are written to > also work with link-local addresses. If implementers than decide that > their users do not need to work with link-local addresses, so be it, > you can make your server reject the optional zone index. But others > can decide that they customers can also work with link-local > addresses. If we blindly remove the zone index from ip-address, then > the IETF would break data models for those who consider link-local > addresses a first class citizen. > > A server option is useful for an implementation that does not support zone index configuration. It is an implementation detail so out of scope. The proposal is for a 2 year phase to change modules that really do want a zone index. It is not blindly removing the zone index. > Nothing in RFC 6241 suggests that this is OK for . > > I have no clue what you mean. If your server recceives a value that > your server does not support, you reject the value. > > /js > Andy > > PS: I recall the side meetings with IPv6 people to sort out how we add > proper IPv6 support to MIB modules, which led to RFC 4001, which > later influenced the YANG typedefs. Almost 20 years later (and > IPv6 deployed at a much larger scale) I find myself in a > discussion where people question that we need to support > link-local addresses. This is very irritating. > > Apparently, getaddrinfo() implementations tend to handle zoned > link-local addresses just fine and any code that passes a zoned ip > address string to getaddrinfo() will likely return you a socket > address with the sin6_scope_id filled in properly. You actually > have to do extra work to prevent the right thing to happen if your > code passes strings on to getaddinfo(). I am puzzled why people > want to do this. > > -- > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Bremen g= GmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --0000000000000616a005dca2946c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:38 PM J=C3= =BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at = 09:23:38AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> >
> So is this a correct summary:
>
>=C2=A0 - zone index is not used in IPv4 at all

There are link-local IPv4 addresses, they are less wide-spread since
IPv4 stacks generally do not auto-configure IPv4 link-local addresses.
Nobody will be able to confirm "not used at all", this questions = is
somewhat rhetoric since nobody can answer it.

>=C2=A0 - zone index is not configured by a client in IPv6 at all

Configuring zone indexes is required in many cases to reach services
that are only reachable via link-local addresses. I mentioned the DNS
resolver example and this applies to pretty much any transport layer
endpoint. This is why by design (and not by accident) the with zone
version of ip-address is used in the inet:host typedef.

>=C2=A0 - zone index is assigned by the system (as needed) to IPv6 link-= local
> addresses

A link-local address exists on a link and as such does not need a zone
index as long it is used on the link. However, when you want to refer
to a link-local address on a system with more than one link, then the
link-local address is ambiguous and to disambiguate things you either
specify in adding the interface to be used or you embed the zone index
in the address. Since application code usually assumes that a
transport address is an (ip-address, port) tuple, people converged on
adding the zone to the ip address (instead of rewriting all APIs to
use (ip-address, port, interface) tuples. The zoned IP address
notation is meanwhile widely supported. This is why we have, for
example, RFC 6874 (but the IPv6 folks have a reoccuring debate about
the question whether the % needs to be percent encoded or not,
draft-carpenter-6man-rfc6874bis-03).

> I want to add a server option in our code to always reject (or alter)<= br> > an edit that contains a zone index.=C2=A0 I need to know the consensus= on
> whether it is OK to ignore a zone index from a client.

It is your choice to design a product that will not work with
link-local addresses. For IETF data models, I expect that the bar is
higher and that people can expect that IETF data models are written to
also work with link-local addresses. If implementers than decide that
their users do not need to work with link-local addresses, so be it,
you can make your server reject the optional zone index. But others
can decide that they customers can also work with link-local
addresses. If we blindly remove the zone index from ip-address, then
the IETF would break data models for those who consider link-local
addresses a first class citizen.


A server option is useful for an imple= mentation that does not
support zone index configuration. It is a= n implementation detail so out of scope.

The propo= sal is for a 2 year phase to change modules
that really do want a= zone index.=C2=A0 It is not blindly removing the zone index.

> Nothing in RFC 6241 suggests that this is OK for <edit-config>.<= br>
I have no clue what you mean. If your server recceives a value that
your server does not support, you reject the value.

/js

Andy

=C2= =A0

PS: I recall the side meetings with IPv6 people to sort out how we add
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 proper IPv6 support to MIB modules, which led to RFC 4001, wh= ich
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 later influenced the YANG typedefs. Almost 20 years later (an= d
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPv6 deployed at a much larger scale) I find myself in a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discussion where people question that we need to support
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 link-local addresses. This is very irritating.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Apparently, getaddrinfo() implementations tend to handle zone= d
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 link-local addresses just fine and any code that passes a zon= ed ip
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 address string to getaddrinfo() will likely return you a sock= et
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 address with the sin6_scope_id filled in properly. You actual= ly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 have to do extra work to prevent the right thing to happen if= your
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 code passes strings on to getaddinfo(). I am puzzled why peop= le
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 want to do this.

--
J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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It is not blindly removing the zone > index. People not reading type definitions will also not read a warning signs. This is blindly removing the zone index in two years, I hardly see a difference from doing the same (damage) today. Lets start with one of the oldest modules affected, RFC 7317. The ietf-system module is using ip-address correctly (allowing DNS servers to be reachable via link-local addresses). So who is going to revise RFC 7317 in the two years? It would be strange to file an errata addressing a problem that will break the module in two years from now. In fact, there is no problem in RFC 7317, the problem is that we break the YANG module update rules that protect YANG modules from getting broken by updates to other YANG modules. And we do all of this because the name ip-address in hindsight is confusing? As you pointed out, an implementer can choose to ignore the optional zone index. However, if we remove the optional zone index, then implementors have no choice anymore since the data model by design prevents a meaningful implementation that works with link-local addresses. The key is that we have to trust data model writers to pick the right type. The assumption that every author who used ip-address really wanted ip-address-no-zone is very wild idea. /js (feeling lost in the modern software world) -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Apr 14 13:25:03 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D756A3A1637 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:25:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X45jZvejCO-u for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-f46.google.com (mail-pj1-f46.google.com [209.85.216.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AEE53A1636 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-f46.google.com with SMTP id mp16-20020a17090b191000b001cb5efbcab6so10226271pjb.4 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:25:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=hzEgq0ZIldLqnF6sUo8vQVrarolTg5F9L/okX5zXrnQ=; b=rAafaDMzH+U3IaVjzJxgqRe3pi7ujmsCet75KFmX4W3EnoD5ZR4pThZ9Bs7PwLI7DU KV+ix1AFQU31K6DxfQsR3abXjqJu80ExIH2JFeUgSFNIXPvAG4Eatt0ahxEnoHctq2Vx 6ttoBkPasJpSl3oX560o53yGufgOqB4e5ECiuB3NuN4hX/zRpgw6Cc0u+bP5XpLX1IDp tyleRYhy7c+U7YMwJzrIiusKDUJUtgopBRkXF0z80pssBKNu/vibJAmtQkBmyAXFHQzM b5kYwTkXrq5vvO2psM6fk+hf65nw12NPLZ7JBVo2lZk6Jmuar1Og4tv6P7wAdVcH5bt+ CdBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532bH+1W0EWQyywXA7WQ4C2gucPDyYvdTI81tQzoX1wxiaeX3EO6 n+BVFNqYKFlTPmbj3YUdqAPxlUjpiDt9LUaB X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyyVrW7uXU1sHFP3XjL4KpBkm4J4tC+qhq+3N1emXOobdSgu6yQHf5xIsWiKt9CfppLGY/NdQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:17cb:b0:1ca:7772:1abe with SMTP id me11-20020a17090b17cb00b001ca77721abemr347764pjb.162.1649967899772; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPV6:2601:646:9300:607:e0e3:f3ee:9566:bb8a? ([2601:646:9300:607:e0e3:f3ee:9566:bb8a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r11-20020a63a54b000000b003a28b1eb93csm133722pgu.32.2022.04.14.13.24.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <6596f345-48de-ae7a-ba7d-94641a8241dc@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:24:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: en-US To: netmod@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org References: <20220414.152331.1522036488630734842.id@4668.se> <20220414134730.62e3fyhl7e4pvuz4@anna> <20220414.160345.1807693114840953491.id@4668.se> <1347E93F-F193-4677-8070-5E28EDB2F14F@cisco.com> <20220414193836.ufqzfhnitb5l5w3h@anna> <20220414201304.mrx72eycemhb2q6q@anna> From: Randy Presuhn In-Reply-To: <20220414201304.mrx72eycemhb2q6q@anna> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 20:25:02 -0000 Hi - On 2022-04-14 1:13 PM, Jürgen Schönwälder wrote: > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:48:18PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > >> The proposal is for a 2 year phase to change modules >> that really do want a zone index. It is not blindly removing the zone >> index. > > People not reading type definitions will also not read a warning > signs. This is blindly removing the zone index in two years, I hardly > see a difference from doing the same (damage) today. > > Lets start with one of the oldest modules affected, RFC 7317. The > ietf-system module is using ip-address correctly (allowing DNS servers > to be reachable via link-local addresses). So who is going to revise > RFC 7317 in the two years? It would be strange to file an errata > addressing a problem that will break the module in two years from > now. In fact, there is no problem in RFC 7317, the problem is that we > break the YANG module update rules that protect YANG modules from > getting broken by updates to other YANG modules. > > And we do all of this because the name ip-address in hindsight is > confusing? > > As you pointed out, an implementer can choose to ignore the optional > zone index. However, if we remove the optional zone index, then > implementors have no choice anymore since the data model by design > prevents a meaningful implementation that works with link-local > addresses. The key is that we have to trust data model writers to pick > the right type. The assumption that every author who used ip-address > really wanted ip-address-no-zone is very wild idea. > > /js (feeling lost in the modern software world) Total agreement. I share your bewilderment that a standardization organization would even consider deliberately breaking compatibility to "fix" a non-problem, particularly a non-problem that has been widely deployed for over a decade. Randy From nobody Thu Apr 14 13:34:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633003A1734 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:34:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8bBU35wN3umf for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x1135.google.com (mail-yw1-x1135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CF1A3A1730 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1135.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2ec04a2ebadso66971177b3.12 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:33:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=wVTnX2UPwk7rJeBfCcjFK40jHEwyas8x2HjhqHHCqZk=; b=V61Nc7jDTEakeyX8qzu6c/L/ZXzgEoHfCa+7kX4T0oBEAYl/nTX1Rj5+yF0B/xDQ/+ 7dgYa6nsoX18rkqF4CpQeTmu1uk7+pTEixrpeMypFSDm5yiTDwc2/cNkM4X8dyDJIh23 NA6+Xft0Eqpx1Knp4eAiHpYsU1Srkh/fE5nB+NbmoUSdpKaZEwhNd6SIywcT9r5xp6/I K7zMhdlR7L5AUEWq4BP1J1DYEAaCb9mQavB8YXSn/ldmiWoNAEyorOwUmIPLWHMSmg4A evXzy0R8vkRp/et49c1vHm9nB+GuECO2GbrNPMXASJaKgfz29r/IWDc/6GUrQA/jLmbf +uQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=wVTnX2UPwk7rJeBfCcjFK40jHEwyas8x2HjhqHHCqZk=; b=UwnMCuMDpjJp07ad/v9Pc/5/YN7wmay7nd7ihRkbJfw6hf/JCz3ScJ6A0BGpod1fXW qAojZLGr3F3JDB2E9G3EH23yJ9c8wUJstxgcSsHQj/3ODM/x50mMq4EVl5QDym1Yd1oY JNqWs5v2uhDodAuFUSxeYGeHRgfB0g0yuqq2AQ5F0A0i4mzpzc++q08WeeB01Qm3cCVz tgRDMc2kIa2zMI7Qs4m4y+CPo6Pq1jffIsdaudYAy1Y4SP39qwRATCoE991tK/WPBAuv emHkF+rCuYf7BSbRHhejy4x2xL5LTpyUkExak8svdeAfNm6z2JfLfQj0xhoSj9xxIpVS pvxw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532gfd/PDEkHWOtK5yeBWCHOSAev870OOQuEeN6jZDGlQ9UJ0AUe 1ow6lmq563OySJEkOYpf7qFOEC8hpzHjlYWC5cZDdbs7WvI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzvKraJAC1Xu5JYnYMEU0/CL35b4sVx34S3uqayxSURnVnHHU9ziKrc14YfZiH6FhQdegHZ+eorn7CTJrBaPFA= X-Received: by 2002:a81:92c8:0:b0:2eb:ef8e:b3b3 with SMTP id j191-20020a8192c8000000b002ebef8eb3b3mr3611879ywg.433.1649968434190; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:33:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220414.152331.1522036488630734842.id@4668.se> <20220414134730.62e3fyhl7e4pvuz4@anna> <20220414.160345.1807693114840953491.id@4668.se> <1347E93F-F193-4677-8070-5E28EDB2F14F@cisco.com> <20220414193836.ufqzfhnitb5l5w3h@anna> <20220414201304.mrx72eycemhb2q6q@anna> In-Reply-To: <20220414201304.mrx72eycemhb2q6q@anna> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:33:43 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= , Andy Bierman , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_Bj=C3=B6rklund?= , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000692d7805dca3366a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 20:34:01 -0000 --000000000000692d7805dca3366a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 1:13 PM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:48:18PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > The proposal is for a 2 year phase to change modules > > that really do want a zone index. It is not blindly removing the zone > > index. > > People not reading type definitions will also not read a warning > signs. This is blindly removing the zone index in two years, I hardly > see a difference from doing the same (damage) today. > > A 2 year advance notice is way more than normal in the open source world. There does not seem to be any consensus on the general issues or the specific typedef, or even agreement that OpenConfig (and RFC 4001) got it right and IETF got it wrong. One set of data models treats a zone index as the normal case, not the exception, and the other treats a zone index as the exception. Spinning all the YANG modules that use these typedefs is not going to happen, and not even clear that would help with multi-SDO integration, given the disconnect on the design of the typedefs. Andy > Lets start with one of the oldest modules affected, RFC 7317. The > ietf-system module is using ip-address correctly (allowing DNS servers > to be reachable via link-local addresses). So who is going to revise > RFC 7317 in the two years? It would be strange to file an errata > addressing a problem that will break the module in two years from > now. In fact, there is no problem in RFC 7317, the problem is that we > break the YANG module update rules that protect YANG modules from > getting broken by updates to other YANG modules. > > And we do all of this because the name ip-address in hindsight is > confusing? > > As you pointed out, an implementer can choose to ignore the optional > zone index. However, if we remove the optional zone index, then > implementors have no choice anymore since the data model by design > prevents a meaningful implementation that works with link-local > addresses. The key is that we have to trust data model writers to pick > the right type. The assumption that every author who used ip-address > really wanted ip-address-no-zone is very wild idea. > > /js (feeling lost in the modern software world) > > -- > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Bremen g= GmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --000000000000692d7805dca3366a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 1:13 PM J=C3= =BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de&g= t; wrote:
On Thu= , Apr 14, 2022 at 12:48:18PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:

> The proposal is for a 2 year phase to change modules
> that really do want a zone index.=C2=A0 It is not blindly removing the= zone
> index.

People not reading type definitions will also not read a warning
signs. This is blindly removing the zone index in two years, I hardly
see a difference from doing the same (damage) today.


A 2 year advance notice is way more th= an normal in the open source=C2=A0world.

There doe= s not seem to be any consensus on the general issues or the specific typede= f,
or even agreement that OpenConfig (and RFC 4001) got it right = and IETF got it wrong.

One set of data models trea= ts a zone index as the normal case, not the exception,
and the ot= her treats a zone index as the exception.=C2=A0

Sp= inning=C2=A0all the YANG modules that use these typedefs is not going to ha= ppen,
and not even clear that would help with multi-SDO integrati= on, given the disconnect
on the design of the typedefs.


Andy


=C2=A0
Lets start with one of the oldest modules affected, RFC 7317. The
ietf-system module is using ip-address correctly (allowing DNS servers
to be reachable via link-local addresses). So who is going to revise
RFC 7317 in the two years? It would be strange to file an errata
addressing a problem that will break the module in two years from
now. In fact, there is no problem in RFC 7317, the problem is that we
break the YANG module update rules that protect YANG modules from
getting broken by updates to other YANG modules.

And we do all of this because the name ip-address in hindsight is
confusing?

As you pointed out, an implementer can choose to ignore the optional
zone index. However, if we remove the optional zone index, then
implementors have no choice anymore since the data model by design
prevents a meaningful implementation that works with link-local
addresses. The key is that we have to trust data model writers to pick
the right type. The assumption that every author who used ip-address
really wanted ip-address-no-zone is very wild idea.

/js (feeling lost in the modern software world)

--
J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
--000000000000692d7805dca3366a-- From nobody Thu Apr 14 13:41:19 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E3A3A179C for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:41:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uidl3ymLAApn for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-f177.google.com (mail-pg1-f177.google.com [209.85.215.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1081C3A178F for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-f177.google.com with SMTP id t4so5783438pgc.1 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:41:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5et520xMK/vRgE2lUrazC3uJzaaRloQWHmXt4lhbCp0=; b=4v+8BYg+hSfNF+Ioj76AN9k0i+Og+/fXdzUQW/abRLolHLNDMp3Hkcnp9oCDhgFNAC mF3ppmtCPXrffsF/Nx5RLeqlV5FbmHQVsf6VMq/tMhT7BViPL1mw3uKMHygnd5A5kS2b 9fuMMF7IzoGsp3hSiw5pI9j0T8U21alOhyQl2nWoUSajN6Y7fkR+3Dh9XzuoYD6GsycG NjgMPDDDA7dkex/lTLDS0pUSj2zZFiK/qWPeWF5iGGVeMXmOzMzu84vpDWxdM57ugvKA pz6uNd/YHFFYuhYks3j9TdWHOJtUyO6p22htiuakKTapaRhzkz16Szcn3x1ZSgkORRWY QmpA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Jzu6FdB9WXMBbqk7dNjgf0SVQJlezHvaXWjrw4Fih9l+uTtc6 VcCL0F3XSGXh1KH4o23+oSC6EA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz65ChwyVtQI0GmAU00TIzVsyU+sfA64LMK0n+SQTdFnoLEwXWaET7mEluWAZWFTAmyUztfcQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:e716:0:b0:380:85d1:656c with SMTP id b22-20020a63e716000000b0038085d1656cmr3752830pgi.321.1649968871481; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPV6:2601:646:9300:607:e0e3:f3ee:9566:bb8a? ([2601:646:9300:607:e0e3:f3ee:9566:bb8a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c18-20020a056a000ad200b004f0f9696578sm782488pfl.141.2022.04.14.13.41.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:41:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" References: <20220414.152331.1522036488630734842.id@4668.se> <20220414134730.62e3fyhl7e4pvuz4@anna> <20220414.160345.1807693114840953491.id@4668.se> <1347E93F-F193-4677-8070-5E28EDB2F14F@cisco.com> <20220414193836.ufqzfhnitb5l5w3h@anna> <20220414201304.mrx72eycemhb2q6q@anna> From: Randy Presuhn In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 20:41:17 -0000 Hi - On 2022-04-14 1:33 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 1:13 PM Jürgen Schönwälder > > wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:48:18PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > The proposal is for a 2 year phase to change modules > > that really do want a zone index.  It is not blindly removing the > zone > > index. > > People not reading type definitions will also not read a warning > signs. This is blindly removing the zone index in two years, I hardly > see a difference from doing the same (damage) today. > > > A 2 year advance notice is way more than normal in the open source world. > > There does not seem to be any consensus on the general issues or the > specific typedef, > or even agreement that OpenConfig (and RFC 4001) got it right and IETF > got it wrong. > > One set of data models treats a zone index as the normal case, not the > exception, > and the other treats a zone index as the exception. > > Spinning all the YANG modules that use these typedefs is not going to > happen, > and not even clear that would help with multi-SDO integration, given the > disconnect > on the design of the typedefs. ... Why do you believe it is necessary to revise all the YANG modules that use the current typedefs? Have any interoperability problems resulted from the use of the current definitions? The argument that not changing the substance of the current definitions would somehow result in the need to modify the modules that have used the current definitions is a paper tiger, I think. Randy From nobody Thu Apr 14 14:26:18 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 238A73A1962 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 14:26:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id us_c5UKLHeOA for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 14:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x1134.google.com (mail-yw1-x1134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62AF83A1960 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 14:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1134.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2ebd70a4cf5so68672077b3.3 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 14:26:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6lBjbb+09dg+SM0yRs0TjLLm5YpPAOZetdq2x3AfSvE=; b=lkqMk6ZLvZFczQOg4EiUxXGyNwA4nFPh0z/lqIL4B0ljw0hFZM4wjFwD+yJK8qtrSX pd99XgxDp4OmqWVxYsLKkGdtJQIesfm9/pN/6s+3BZDZsr5zrSclAZHR46h6bFHO/ihh mQUO3CyKIkS4wRixbNP8Uo2H5+ZlmPI76Z4yc4ueJJ3yECzogFcKHiNSRgHasOBxSsQn 9AFbDIPXnirZewa6QYPu1aU9sG0G7eS8Lb4ulWw5PsIZMQdeys3IOg6vx6gknIrMSr5e DjK+NPjwR+oXNt+UIp4z1O7/TNPyZkGDmIxRApQcjqJcDpXAqGjhGlf+v8GNS7yA3OxU rVig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6lBjbb+09dg+SM0yRs0TjLLm5YpPAOZetdq2x3AfSvE=; b=wm3S7VufNbUF3Mp1zpZI3sH4uXB8APt5a0Bo8XPDzbFrjbnTmwR1DLVjMsLSEFGW1B Oc+qyWapp0oa66gzEwHsvhtv72FfZqsh5yXnPpIYTtTVuDFgLgut40ZSf6TraNmQykTS EizYLeVPXqYOrqBZ8MKxrfeG+f2ZbsdkXikAyDzPvhV/R0YXfS4wf6UiMkM7zA+a5S3r GYx7b+sylR7kdtzf6bw2rWEjlChhxHmaIBFv9u39KXLO7d33T7s+CbFQQCjjzJfJpgJh jBZe6O0F7KHcOQWv4FbHYjRYCcdv/fvJqwDNbVLnWKB81bh0Hpxju9qJAdipS3oNYofZ tX8w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530B4DAYiOGtBxtA+7oQZcF5rvOXm5Vf8f3IbZtAaaIgOS+KN36k b7J4dpGpkuC7K09ExBbtG5Fpa9RzUl+7vSg0v/PWysy6wgM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJydgS8VKQFS0MWb/kFMGP8EL/RlpIZ74gaqlGigIfSB0L0djiZvVgrCtCo+JWG16gwEUPVgGNJ4Gj6LJXeJ4Bw= X-Received: by 2002:a81:a43:0:b0:2eb:d709:1cfa with SMTP id 64-20020a810a43000000b002ebd7091cfamr3585796ywk.212.1649971570187; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 14:26:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220414.152331.1522036488630734842.id@4668.se> <20220414134730.62e3fyhl7e4pvuz4@anna> <20220414.160345.1807693114840953491.id@4668.se> <1347E93F-F193-4677-8070-5E28EDB2F14F@cisco.com> <20220414193836.ufqzfhnitb5l5w3h@anna> <20220414201304.mrx72eycemhb2q6q@anna> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 14:25:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: Randy Presuhn Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054b86305dca3f16d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 21:26:16 -0000 --00000000000054b86305dca3f16d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 1:41 PM Randy Presuhn < randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote: > Hi - > > On 2022-04-14 1:33 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 1:13 PM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder > > > > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:48:18PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > The proposal is for a 2 year phase to change modules > > > that really do want a zone index. It is not blindly removing th= e > > zone > > > index. > > > > People not reading type definitions will also not read a warning > > signs. This is blindly removing the zone index in two years, I hard= ly > > see a difference from doing the same (damage) today. > > > > > > A 2 year advance notice is way more than normal in the open source worl= d. > > > > There does not seem to be any consensus on the general issues or the > > specific typedef, > > or even agreement that OpenConfig (and RFC 4001) got it right and IETF > > got it wrong. > > > > One set of data models treats a zone index as the normal case, not the > > exception, > > and the other treats a zone index as the exception. > > > > Spinning all the YANG modules that use these typedefs is not going to > > happen, > > and not even clear that would help with multi-SDO integration, given th= e > > disconnect > > on the design of the typedefs. > ... > > Why do you believe it is necessary to revise all the YANG modules that > use the current typedefs? Have any interoperability problems resulted > from the use of the current definitions? The argument that not changing > the substance of the current definitions would somehow result in the > need to modify the modules that have used the current definitions is > a paper tiger, I think. > There seems to be many modules where ip-address was used when the intention of the WG was to use ip-address-no-zone. The easiest solution is to do nothing, and force the server implementers to deal with it. A server is obligated to check all client input. Any request with a zone index can be rejected instead of accepted. This solution is compatible with the OpenConfig typedef (unless zone index actually used). > Randy > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --00000000000054b86305dca3f16d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 1:41 PM Randy= Presuhn <randy_pre= suhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:
Hi -

On 2022-04-14 1:33 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 1:13 PM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder
> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de
> <mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:48:18PM -0700, Andy Bier= man wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The proposal is for a 2 year phase to change = modules
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > that really do want a zone index.=C2=A0 It is= not blindly removing the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0zone
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > index.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0People not reading type definitions will also not r= ead a warning
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0signs. This is blindly removing the zone index in t= wo years, I hardly
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0see a difference from doing the same (damage) today= .
>
>
> A 2 year advance notice is way more than normal in the open source=C2= =A0world.
>
> There does not seem to be any consensus on the general issues or the <= br> > specific typedef,
> or even agreement that OpenConfig (and RFC 4001) got it right and IETF=
> got it wrong.
>
> One set of data models treats a zone index as the normal case, not the=
> exception,
> and the other treats a zone index as the exception.
>
> Spinning=C2=A0all the YANG modules that use these typedefs is not goin= g to
> happen,
> and not even clear that would help with multi-SDO integration, given t= he
> disconnect
> on the design of the typedefs.
...

Why do you believe it is necessary to revise all the YANG modules that
use the current typedefs?=C2=A0 Have any interoperability problems resulted=
from the use of the current definitions?=C2=A0 The argument that not changi= ng
the substance of the current definitions would somehow result in the
need to modify the modules that have used the current definitions is
a paper tiger, I think.

There seems to = be many modules where ip-address was used
when the intention of t= he WG was to use ip-address-no-zone.

The easiest s= olution is to do nothing, and force=C2=A0the server implementers to deal wi= th it.
A server is obligated to check all client input.
Any request with a zone index can be rejected instead of accepted.
This solution is compatible with the OpenConfig typedef (unless zone ind= ex actually used).



Randy

Andy
=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
--00000000000054b86305dca3f16d-- From nobody Thu Apr 14 16:44:06 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1F53A118C for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 18:49:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kr5Pipu-Y0K3 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 18:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta2.chinamobile.com (cmccmta2.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A736B3A1181 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2022 18:49:33 -0700 (PDT) X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.87]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app06-12006 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee6625237a985a-569ea; Sun, 10 Apr 2022 09:49:31 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee6625237a985a-569ea X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmccPC (unknown[10.1.6.6]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvrnew04-12029 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2efd625237a6ff1-4c183; Sun, 10 Apr 2022 09:49:30 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2efd625237a6ff1-4c183 From: "Du Zongpeng" To: "'Benoit Claise'" , "'Kent Watsen'" , "'Qin Wu'" , "'Peng Liu'" , "'Mohamed Boucadair'" Cc: "'Liang Geng'" , References: <010001800a5e4509-3550b480-9a31-42e2-961c-44cba56525a8-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 09:49:31 +0800 Message-ID: <002b01d84c7d$3978a320$ac69e960$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AdhMF26LXIjeeaQUS3SIc7PisS3CNAAZbTeA Content-Language: zh-cn Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 16:44:05 -0700 Subject: Re: [netmod] IPR Poll on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 01:49:38 -0000 Hi, all "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" Best Regards Zongpeng Du -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Benoit Claise = [mailto:benoit.claise@huawei.com]=20 =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2022=E5=B9=B44=E6=9C=889=E6=97=A5 = 21:41 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Kent Watsen; Qin Wu; Peng Liu; Zongpeng Du; = Mohamed Boucadair =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Liang Geng; netmod@ietf.org =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: IPR Poll on draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" Regards, Benoit On 4/8/2022 8:09 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > [ Note: existing IPR declaration: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/4216 ] > > > Authors, Contributors, WG, > > As part of WG Last Call: > > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? > > Please state either: > > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" > or > "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" > > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules > (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? > > If yes to the above, please state either: > > "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" > or > "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" > > If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think > appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor > please answer the above by responding to this email regardless > of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This > document will not advance to the next stage until a response > has been received from each author. > > NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. > > If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not > listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations > under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF > if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to > refrain from participating in any contribution or discussion related > to your undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs > listed above and > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. > > Thank you, > Kent (Co-Chair) > > PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your > response. > > > . 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boundary="_000_BN7PR04MB3889A64AEF6155D45F4AB6BAC9EC9BN7PR04MB3889namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: blueplanet.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN7PR04MB3889.namprd04.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a705048e-8291-4bb1-dcb9-08da1d977067 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Apr 2022 21:49:08.8218 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 457a2b01-0019-42ba-a449-45f99e96b60a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: GbAsxBDQ6uXf3I0YGgx5+Mq5Hu7fAB3V1pjo17rpv6i0Wpg7PJkDIQpR4ceb7X5rS2J3YtONTnLvEhKDOadHWQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR04MB6858 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: wTKW0vLIcVHnJmjBujOs22atHk54PAQT X-Proofpoint-GUID: wTKW0vLIcVHnJmjBujOs22atHk54PAQT X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.858,Hydra:6.0.486,FMLib:17.11.64.514 definitions=2022-04-13_04,2022-04-13_01,2022-02-23_01 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 16:44:05 -0700 Subject: [netmod] Question/Suggestion regarding RFC 7950 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:51:41 -0000 --_000_BN7PR04MB3889A64AEF6155D45F4AB6BAC9EC9BN7PR04MB3889namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I would like to submit a request for a change to section 7.1.9 "The revisio= n Statement" of the YANG RFC. Reviewing current YANG models I have to scroll over 74+ lines of revision s= tatements and 130+ lines before getting to an actual typedef to read the mo= dule. This will only continue to grow as changes to modules occur over time= . To make this more conveniently readable I'd like to propose moving all revi= sion statements to the end of the YANG module or keeping the most recent re= vision at the top of the module. Examples of YANG modules with long revisions: https://github.com/YangModels/yang/blob/main/vendor/cisco/xr/741/Cisco-IOS-= XR-clns-isis-cfg.yang https://github.com/openconfig/public/blob/master/release/models/interfaces/= openconfig-interfaces.yang Thank you, Manuel Pati=F1o IV Network Developer --_000_BN7PR04MB3889A64AEF6155D45F4AB6BAC9EC9BN7PR04MB3889namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,<= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

I would like= to submit a request for a change to section 7.1.9 "The revision State= ment" of the YANG RFC. 

 <= /o:p>

Reviewing cu= rrent YANG models I have to scroll over 74+ lines of revision statements an= d 130+ lines before getting to an actual typedef to read the module. This will only continue to grow as changes to modules = occur over time. 

 <= /o:p>

To make this= more conveniently readable I'd like to propose moving all revision stateme= nts to the end of the YANG module or keeping the most recent revision at the top of the module. 

 <= /o:p>

Examples of = YANG modules with long revisions:
https://github.com/YangModels/yang/blob/main/vendor/cisco/xr/741/Cis= co-IOS-XR-clns-isis-cfg.yang
https://github.com/openconfig/public/blob/master/release/models= /interfaces/openconfig-interfaces.yang

 <= /o:p>

Thank you,

Manuel Pati= =F1o IV

Network Developer

--_000_BN7PR04MB3889A64AEF6155D45F4AB6BAC9EC9BN7PR04MB3889namp_-- From nobody Thu Apr 14 17:18:10 2022 Return-Path: <010001802a952211-9f832f7a-d855-4fc2-8b43-712c0fea7c96-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E0A3A0CCF for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:17:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XPBm4hyrX74e for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-83.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-83.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B062C3A0CC3 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:17:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1649981858; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=cb735lTrwFoJP9NRZ9cBhPEuKAPxmtimsdUrL7pOUJc=; b=UABk9Muhr+o+jUzv6tiXY4szDT8KjeWIqSWGx/NApwfk5aZdMZi2XvlOqln3TAg5 HDJBLYyXqSqlJzp3ahaInTT67YuT20jAarkQDfCRSPxwyLH8mANODVfpwJkPWj8TbXR LABC/grsJ2dqflSf8FIwu8H2LPTA10m8LsI8h3oY= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <010001802a952211-9f832f7a-d855-4fc2-8b43-712c0fea7c96-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_360F843C-1F6C-4B2C-97BA-AF74869D322C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 00:17:38 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= , Jan Lindblad , "netmod@ietf.org" To: "maqiufang (A)" References: <8F7D5127-E621-4920-BE30-89E1BF7E778D@tail-f.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.04.15-54.240.8.83 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 00:17:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_360F843C-1F6C-4B2C-97BA-AF74869D322C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > JANL: I could accept watering down MUST NOT to SHOULD NOT. > BALAZS3: Sorry, I know system-set data has its problems, but my = arguments still stand. >=20 > [Qiufang] SHOULD NOT is fine from my perspective. >=20 >=20 SHOULD NOT is fine from my perspective also. Clearly best practice. The focus should be on the "in any way not specified by the client" = fragment. This part is key because we want the client to be aware of = and explicitly ask for server-side functions. RFC 7317 did the same thing with its definition of the "crypt-hash" = typedef allowing for a special '0' value for the "id" field that causes = the server to store a hashed value instead. Kent // contributor --Apple-Mail=_360F843C-1F6C-4B2C-97BA-AF74869D322C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

JANL: I could accept = watering down MUST NOT to SHOULD NOT.
BALAZS3: Sorry, I know system-set data = has its problems, but my arguments still stand.

[Qiufang] = SHOULD NOT is fine from my perspective.



SHOULD NOT is fine from my perspective also.  Clearly = best practice.

The focus should be on the = "in any way not = specified by the client" fragment.  This part is key because we = want the client to be aware of and explicitly ask for server-side = functions.

RFC 7317 did the same thing = with its definition of the "crypt-hash" typedef allowing for a special '0' value for the = "id" field that causes the server to store a hashed value = instead.

Kent  // = contributor




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Fri, 15 Apr 2022 16:44:46 +0000 From: tom petch To: Andy Bierman , Randy Presuhn CC: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt Thread-Index: AQHYUEADU/frqkSDUkOIekxH9dqZWazv6/YAgAFAvKk= Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 16:44:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20220414.152331.1522036488630734842.id@4668.se> <20220414134730.62e3fyhl7e4pvuz4@anna> <20220414.160345.1807693114840953491.id@4668.se> <1347E93F-F193-4677-8070-5E28EDB2F14F@cisco.com> <20220414193836.ufqzfhnitb5l5w3h@anna> <20220414201304.mrx72eycemhb2q6q@anna> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0e0ac7fc-6869-4216-116f-08da1eff3fac x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1PR07MB4348:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0e0ac7fc-6869-4216-116f-08da1eff3fac X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Apr 2022 16:44:45.9925 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: FwPvl6XD3AIulJUMhqFIW44G1P2rUOj+APOUmwGT5n/bdoyhaduuSKd88RCHJ8zkL6MBVAho07KBjmijwu48/Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR07MB4348 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 16:44:58 -0000 From: netmod on behalf of Andy Bierman =0A= Sent: 14 April 2022 22:25=0A= =0A= On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 1:41 PM Randy Presuhn > wrote:=0A= Hi -=0A= =0A= On 2022-04-14 1:33 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 1:13 PM J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder=0A= > =0A= > >> wrote:=0A= >=0A= > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:48:18PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:=0A= >=0A= > > The proposal is for a 2 year phase to change modules=0A= > > that really do want a zone index. It is not blindly removing the= =0A= > zone=0A= > > index.=0A= >=0A= > People not reading type definitions will also not read a warning=0A= > signs. This is blindly removing the zone index in two years, I hardly= =0A= > see a difference from doing the same (damage) today.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > A 2 year advance notice is way more than normal in the open source world.= =0A= >=0A= > There does not seem to be any consensus on the general issues or the=0A= > specific typedef,=0A= > or even agreement that OpenConfig (and RFC 4001) got it right and IETF=0A= > got it wrong.=0A= >=0A= > One set of data models treats a zone index as the normal case, not the=0A= > exception,=0A= > and the other treats a zone index as the exception.=0A= >=0A= > Spinning all the YANG modules that use these typedefs is not going to=0A= > happen,=0A= > and not even clear that would help with multi-SDO integration, given the= =0A= > disconnect=0A= > on the design of the typedefs.=0A= ...=0A= =0A= Why do you believe it is necessary to revise all the YANG modules that=0A= use the current typedefs? Have any interoperability problems resulted=0A= from the use of the current definitions? The argument that not changing=0A= the substance of the current definitions would somehow result in the=0A= need to modify the modules that have used the current definitions is=0A= a paper tiger, I think.=0A= =0A= There seems to be many modules where ip-address was used=0A= when the intention of the WG was to use ip-address-no-zone.=0A= =0A= =0A= Well, we really do not know. We do know that in the past two years or so, = when the meaning of ip-address has been pointed out to YANG module authors,= most, but not all, have changed to the no-zone format, suggesting that the= y were unfamiliar with the use of zones in IPv6. But they may have got it = wrong, The flavour of RFC4007 is that from now on, all IPv6 addresses will= include a zone in their representation but since that is mostly the defaul= t zone and the default zone can be omitted then we do not often see zones i= n the representation. To quote RFC4007=0A= ' This is accomplished by assigning, within the node,=0A= a distinct "zone index" to each zone of the same scope to which that=0A= node is attached, and by allowing all internal uses of an address to=0A= be qualified by a zone index.=0A= '=0A= All internal uses! that is what an implementer should be doing with YANG or= with anything else.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= The easiest solution is to do nothing, and force the server implementers to= deal with it.=0A= A server is obligated to check all client input.=0A= Any request with a zone index can be rejected instead of accepted.=0A= This solution is compatible with the OpenConfig typedef (unless zone index = actually used).=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Randy=0A= =0A= Andy=0A= =0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= netmod mailing list=0A= netmod@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= From nobody Fri Apr 15 11:13:22 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897DE3A175C for ; 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Fri, 15 Apr 2022 11:12:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220414.152331.1522036488630734842.id@4668.se> <20220414134730.62e3fyhl7e4pvuz4@anna> <20220414.160345.1807693114840953491.id@4668.se> <1347E93F-F193-4677-8070-5E28EDB2F14F@cisco.com> <20220414193836.ufqzfhnitb5l5w3h@anna> <20220414201304.mrx72eycemhb2q6q@anna> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 11:12:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: tom petch Cc: Randy Presuhn , "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e7dc4105dcb55b5e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 18:13:00 -0000 --000000000000e7dc4105dcb55b5e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 9:44 AM tom petch wrote: > From: netmod on behalf of Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com> > Sent: 14 April 2022 22:25 > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 1:41 PM Randy Presuhn < > randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> > wrote: > Hi - > > On 2022-04-14 1:33 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 1:13 PM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>>> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:48:18PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > The proposal is for a 2 year phase to change modules > > > that really do want a zone index. It is not blindly removing th= e > > zone > > > index. > > > > People not reading type definitions will also not read a warning > > signs. This is blindly removing the zone index in two years, I hard= ly > > see a difference from doing the same (damage) today. > > > > > > A 2 year advance notice is way more than normal in the open source worl= d. > > > > There does not seem to be any consensus on the general issues or the > > specific typedef, > > or even agreement that OpenConfig (and RFC 4001) got it right and IETF > > got it wrong. > > > > One set of data models treats a zone index as the normal case, not the > > exception, > > and the other treats a zone index as the exception. > > > > Spinning all the YANG modules that use these typedefs is not going to > > happen, > > and not even clear that would help with multi-SDO integration, given th= e > > disconnect > > on the design of the typedefs. > ... > > Why do you believe it is necessary to revise all the YANG modules that > use the current typedefs? Have any interoperability problems resulted > from the use of the current definitions? The argument that not changing > the substance of the current definitions would somehow result in the > need to modify the modules that have used the current definitions is > a paper tiger, I think. > > There seems to be many modules where ip-address was used > when the intention of the WG was to use ip-address-no-zone. > > > Well, we really do not know. We do know that in the past two years or so= , > when the meaning of ip-address has been pointed out to YANG module author= s, > most, but not all, have changed to the no-zone format, suggesting that th= ey > were unfamiliar with the use of zones in IPv6. But they may have got it > wrong, The flavour of RFC4007 is that from now on, all IPv6 addresses wi= ll > include a zone in their representation but since that is mostly the defau= lt > zone and the default zone can be omitted then we do not often see zones i= n > the representation. To quote RFC4007 > ' This is accomplished by assigning, within the node, > a distinct "zone index" to each zone of the same scope to which that > node is attached, and by allowing all internal uses of an address to > be qualified by a zone index. > ' > All internal uses! that is what an implementer should be doing with YANG > or with anything else. > > I can support just "part 1" of the proposal. Total solution: - provide guidelines for YANG authors and developers - base + options approach vs. full + without-options approach - ip-address vs. ip-address-no-zone I retract support for my own previous suggestion of allowing the zone index to be ignored. (!) There should not be any special exceptions for a few typedefs. RFC 6241 is very clear about the server requirements for returning for an request. No further comment in ietf-inet-types is needed. > Tom Petch > > Andy > Tom Petch > > The easiest solution is to do nothing, and force the server implementers > to deal with it. > A server is obligated to check all client input. > Any request with a zone index can be rejected instead of accepted. > This solution is compatible with the OpenConfig typedef (unless zone inde= x > actually used). > > > > Randy > > Andy > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000e7dc4105dcb55b5e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 9:44 AM tom p= etch <ietfc@btconnect.com>= wrote:
From: ne= tmod <netmo= d-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 14 April 2022 22:25

On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 1:41 PM Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford= .edu<mailto:randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu>> wrote:
Hi -

On 2022-04-14 1:33 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 1:13 PM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder
> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@j= acobs-university.de>
> <mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de<mailto:j.schoen= waelder@jacobs-university.de>>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:48:18PM -0700, Andy Bier= man wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The proposal is for a 2 year phase to change = modules
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > that really do want a zone index.=C2=A0 It is= not blindly removing the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0zone
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > index.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0People not reading type definitions will also not r= ead a warning
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0signs. This is blindly removing the zone index in t= wo years, I hardly
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0see a difference from doing the same (damage) today= .
>
>
> A 2 year advance notice is way more than normal in the open source wor= ld.
>
> There does not seem to be any consensus on the general issues or the > specific typedef,
> or even agreement that OpenConfig (and RFC 4001) got it right and IETF=
> got it wrong.
>
> One set of data models treats a zone index as the normal case, not the=
> exception,
> and the other treats a zone index as the exception.
>
> Spinning all the YANG modules that use these typedefs is not going to<= br> > happen,
> and not even clear that would help with multi-SDO integration, given t= he
> disconnect
> on the design of the typedefs.
...

Why do you believe it is necessary to revise all the YANG modules that
use the current typedefs?=C2=A0 Have any interoperability problems resulted=
from the use of the current definitions?=C2=A0 The argument that not changi= ng
the substance of the current definitions would somehow result in the
need to modify the modules that have used the current definitions is
a paper tiger, I think.

There seems to be many modules where ip-address was used
when the intention of the WG was to use ip-address-no-zone.

<tp>
Well, we really do not know.=C2=A0 We do know that in the past two years or= so, when the meaning of ip-address has been pointed out to YANG module aut= hors, most, but not all, have changed to the no-zone format, suggesting tha= t they were unfamiliar with the use of zones in IPv6.=C2=A0 But they may ha= ve got it wrong,=C2=A0 The flavour of RFC4007 is that from now on, all IPv6= addresses will include a zone in their representation but since that is mo= stly the default zone and the default zone can be omitted then we do not of= ten see zones in the representation.=C2=A0 To quote RFC4007
' This is accomplished by assigning, within the node,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a distinct "zone index" to each zone of the same sco= pe to which that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0node is attached, and by allowing all internal uses of an addr= ess to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0be qualified by a zone index.
'
All internal uses! that is what an implementer should be doing with YANG or= with anything else.



I can support just &quo= t;part 1" of the proposal.

Total solution:

=C2=A0- provide guidelines for YANG authors and deve= lopers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - base=C2=A0+ options approach vs. full=C2= =A0+ without-options approach
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - ip-address vs. ip-a= ddress-no-zone


I retract support fo= r my own previous suggestion of allowing the zone index to be ignored. (!)<= /div>
There should not be any special exceptions for a few typedefs.
RFC 6241 is very clear about the server requirements for returning = <ok> for an <edit-config>
request. No further comment= in ietf-inet-types is needed.

=C2=A0
Tom Petch



Andy
=C2=A0
Tom Petch

The easiest solution is to do nothing, and force the server implementers to= deal with it.
A server is obligated to check all client input.
Any request with a zone index can be rejected instead of accepted.
This solution is compatible with the OpenConfig typedef (unless zone index = actually used).



Randy

Andy


_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org<= ;mailto:netmod@ietf.or= g>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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([2601:646:9300:607:61e3:5708:b92b:5d8e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s3-20020a056a00194300b004f6da3a1a3bsm4109972pfk.8.2022.04.15.12.25.13 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:25:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79b9bda5-391d-e082-1acb-f87ccc0dd79e@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:25:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" References: <20220414.152331.1522036488630734842.id@4668.se> <20220414134730.62e3fyhl7e4pvuz4@anna> <20220414.160345.1807693114840953491.id@4668.se> <1347E93F-F193-4677-8070-5E28EDB2F14F@cisco.com> <20220414193836.ufqzfhnitb5l5w3h@anna> <20220414201304.mrx72eycemhb2q6q@anna> From: Randy Presuhn In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 19:25:32 -0000 Hi - I took a fresh look at RFC 6991, and a couple of things that have already been mentioned in this thread bear repetition. (1) in both the ipv4-address and ipv6-address typdefs, the zone is only optionally present. This is made clear both in the string patterns as well as the descriptions, which state that it "may" be present, and clearly specify how its absence is to be understood. Thus it's no surprise that their use has not caused any problems. If the definitions go unchanged, there's no demonstrated need for any of the existing uses of these typedefs to be revised to employ something else, even if other typedefs are available that are more precisely targeted. (2) since both the ipv4-address and ipv6-address typdefs are used in the ip-address typedef, which is in turn used in the host typedef, any proposal changing the syntax or semantics of ipv4-address or ipv6-address needs to deal with the potential collateral damage to any module (IETF or otherwise) employing ip-address or host. (3) since the proposed change is to narrow the syntax / semantics of a typedef (along with any other typdefs that directly or indirectly incorporate that typedef), the consequence for interoperability is that some values go from "MAY reject" (such is the nature of Netconf servers - well-formedness is not sufficient to guarantee that a server will accept an attempt to apply a particular value to a configuration) to "MUST reject" (due to the narrowed pattern and description). This is where stuff breaks. (4) since ipv4-address-no-zone is derived from ipv4-address (by narrowing the pattern), and ipv6-address-no-zone is likewise derived from ipv6-address, the proposed change will also require these typedefs to be changed, which will in turn bubble up to ip-address-no-zone. It still makes no sense to me to engage in making such wide-ranging changes affecting both specifications and implementations with a real risk to interoperability in order to "fix" a non-problem. Randy From nobody Fri Apr 15 13:02:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC783A1750 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:02:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QVwGmW_eujBH for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x1129.google.com (mail-yw1-x1129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB51B3A1751 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1129.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2edbd522c21so91820497b3.13 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:01:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fmFxIXbr6uwhZviQme+SXbf6Tobq29m3F4ZHUI7Jms4=; b=GRUWEax0C8fxCZZH+8cE2Bdk7OiUvTLfMXhoUMY5ZR65b2WVXyeoWAXWEBx3sxPOPE PpNiAWqeaSaRW0oxjocHDvNZ7HPd8wcMIsFKwF7pdZ5YHnM+aYjZlXtTJYZ70aMb/+Pq x7InG7Ce1QYNJWGN88fjAt+qHxiPRMr1nJ+AfahtfOXfLFXF3SjLwAheqI+DB5cCg6WO XnhrBFMfvMFkex4daiv9gzLaCS1HyVVSuNLI4r4cyC3u14nOqGAsJLXBNIBkjM0wlFSy Lz7RJVLwn9LKkX5PS6dz9NwjNAtGSl5iwoONsxU1t4JtfLWDe2bnjfQY0mdxVflqZgzw ucgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fmFxIXbr6uwhZviQme+SXbf6Tobq29m3F4ZHUI7Jms4=; b=65844q+WYpAmAEFPwmPvib4XFw/HBUXbPsNEbqRAkolgiBAHlw0E+53VaMtv9cyJUC rRSGJ/6lcpMVJz0NqCGVHyiyspCpd7chgInnvYAZi1UMPzTcVfsqGH3lC3wIsfSlrhZk FV5ykCnB2ipMTgKAF1N5kHLjzv5OkI12+B5rmOEdRzgnfz47a7veutQZ/+MbwDhpBsxY ZKsrvUUilxsfISTyhkmxc+661fawBW6zVSNMA1nJLUFhLM+1/0Do6yGbMENe/cBJ0+GU Iry5Jg/Lw4ZVUUohtaeY8zJzGxaO96lSu5itbUFcT1mmoAhwCGaZJ/D4EuYaLD4uZOcE 8MeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532otA7v/N+1R/a7mvdKeqp0nRL0Zw10cdOn0W4+DexHS5jnUA6k 6k0eYsVBdKh+zgWU7Ft7tWYGT8sKYLhqZ2S6adFwdg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxo9ucYxWG+hC+eHb9JgyXrO+N9k+cOwN2YwhyVoz39AnpVdqYWBVs7nbVQht0XEM3L3BdDJf6PY/AJ3gu3g78= X-Received: by 2002:a81:a43:0:b0:2eb:d709:1cfa with SMTP id 64-20020a810a43000000b002ebd7091cfamr542649ywk.212.1650052918319; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:01:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220414.152331.1522036488630734842.id@4668.se> <20220414134730.62e3fyhl7e4pvuz4@anna> <20220414.160345.1807693114840953491.id@4668.se> <1347E93F-F193-4677-8070-5E28EDB2F14F@cisco.com> <20220414193836.ufqzfhnitb5l5w3h@anna> <20220414201304.mrx72eycemhb2q6q@anna> <79b9bda5-391d-e082-1acb-f87ccc0dd79e@alumni.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <79b9bda5-391d-e082-1acb-f87ccc0dd79e@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:01:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: Randy Presuhn Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000eb6a905dcb6e25e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 20:02:06 -0000 --0000000000000eb6a905dcb6e25e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 12:25 PM Randy Presuhn < randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote: > Hi - > > I took a fresh look at RFC 6991, and a couple of things that have > already been mentioned in this thread bear repetition. > > (1) in both the ipv4-address and ipv6-address typdefs, the zone > is only optionally present. This is made clear both in the > string patterns as well as the descriptions, which state that > it "may" be present, and clearly specify how its absence is > to be understood. Thus it's no surprise that their use has not > caused any problems. If the definitions go unchanged, there's > no demonstrated need for any of the existing uses of these typedefs > to be revised to employ something else, even if other typedefs > are available that are more precisely targeted. > > (2) since both the ipv4-address and ipv6-address typdefs are > used in the ip-address typedef, which is in turn used in the > host typedef, any proposal changing the syntax or semantics > of ipv4-address or ipv6-address needs to deal with the potential > collateral damage to any module (IETF or otherwise) employing > ip-address or host. > > (3) since the proposed change is to narrow the syntax / semantics > of a typedef (along with any other typdefs that directly or indirectly > incorporate that typedef), the consequence for interoperability is > that some values go from "MAY reject" (such is the nature of Netconf > servers - well-formedness is not sufficient to guarantee that a server > will accept an attempt to apply a particular value to a configuration) > to "MUST reject" (due to the narrowed pattern and description). This is > where stuff breaks. > > (4) since ipv4-address-no-zone is derived from ipv4-address (by > narrowing the pattern), and ipv6-address-no-zone is likewise > derived from ipv6-address, the proposed change will also require > these typedefs to be changed, which will in turn bubble up to > ip-address-no-zone. > > I have been using the term 'ip-address' for simplification. I understand the actual edits are quite messy and apparently, not even understood yet. It still makes no sense to me to engage in making such wide-ranging > changes affecting both specifications and implementations with a real > risk to interoperability in order to "fix" a non-problem. > > I agree that the current YANG standards do not allow for any significant NBC change to be introduced. There is only "deprecate and start over with a new identifier". There are many components (YANG conformance, YANG import, YANG versioning, etc.) that need a lot more work to support "smart tooling" to fix (or at least warn) users. Randy > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --0000000000000eb6a905dcb6e25e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 12:25 PM Rand= y Presuhn <randy_pr= esuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:
Hi -

I took a fresh look at RFC 6991, and a couple of things that have
already been mentioned in this thread bear repetition.

(1) in both the ipv4-address and ipv6-address typdefs, the zone
is only optionally present.=C2=A0 This is made clear both in the
string patterns as well as the descriptions, which state that
it "may" be present, and clearly specify how its absence is
to be understood.=C2=A0 Thus it's no surprise that their use has not caused any problems.=C2=A0 If the definitions go unchanged, there's
no demonstrated need for any of the existing uses of these typedefs
to be revised to employ something else, even if other typedefs
are available that are more precisely targeted.

(2) since both the ipv4-address and ipv6-address typdefs are
used in the ip-address typedef, which is in turn used in the
host typedef, any proposal changing the syntax or semantics
of ipv4-address or ipv6-address=C2=A0 needs to deal with the potential
collateral damage to any module (IETF or otherwise) employing
ip-address or host.

(3) since the proposed change is to narrow the syntax / semantics
of a typedef (along with any other typdefs that directly or indirectly
incorporate that typedef), the consequence for interoperability is
that some values go from "MAY reject" (such is the nature of Netc= onf
servers - well-formedness is not sufficient to guarantee that a server
will accept an attempt to apply a particular value to a configuration)
to "MUST reject" (due to the narrowed pattern and description).= =C2=A0 This is
where stuff breaks.

(4) since ipv4-address-no-zone is derived from ipv4-address (by
narrowing the pattern), and ipv6-address-no-zone is likewise
derived from ipv6-address, the proposed change will also require
these typedefs to be changed, which will in turn bubble up to
ip-address-no-zone.


I have been using the term 'ip-add= ress' for simplification.
I understand the actual edits are q= uite messy and apparently, not even understood yet.


It still makes no sense to me to engage in making such wide-ranging
changes affecting both specifications and implementations with a real
risk to interoperability in order to "fix" a non-problem.


I agree that the current YANG standard= s=C2=A0do not allow for any significant NBC change
to be introduc= ed.=C2=A0 There is only "deprecate and start over with a new identifie= r".
There are many components (YANG conformance, YANG import= , YANG versioning, etc.)
that need a lot more work to support &qu= ot;smart tooling" to fix (or at least warn) users.



Randy

Andy
=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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boundary="_000_DM6PR08MB5084B130647A60811B41307A9BF39DM6PR08MB5084namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR08MB5084.namprd08.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c910a6bd-050e-4222-4f30-08da21457c2f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Apr 2022 14:12:34.5656 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: bwuwSfSqIaLJ0h8kVmFX620deFycacW9NVqpHP+UJXLoz3mlFhKJM3+o82xfkEFGn0DgXOG0c5Lb38ArJnaz0g== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR08MB4577 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Topics for YANG Versioning call tomorrow (April 19) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 14:12:45 -0000 --_000_DM6PR08MB5084B130647A60811B41307A9BF39DM6PR08MB5084namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Last week we mainly discussed Jurgen's email "yang versioning solution comp= lexity and alternative approaches". Tomorrow we'll continue with that discussion, and then work through other W= G LC feedback (from Jurgen, Andy and Italo). Please feel welcome to join and help us drive this work forward. Even if yo= u can't regularly participate it is good to have other WG members in the ca= lls when you can. Jason ---------------------------------------------- Versioning work on Github: https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt ---------------------------------------------- Weekly webex call details: Meeting number (access code): 161 096 5630 Meeting password: semver? Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, November 16, 2021 from 9:00 AM to 1= 0:00 AM, (UTC-05:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) 9:00 AM | (UTC-05:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) | 1 hr https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dme2c6491ebcc37b8127c1244d244d2754 Tap to join from a mobile device (attendees only) +1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## Call-in toll number (US/Canada) --_000_DM6PR08MB5084B130647A60811B41307A9BF39DM6PR08MB5084namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

Last week we mainly discussed J= urgen's email "yang versioning solution complexity and alternative app= roaches".

 

Tomorrow we'll continue with th= at discussion, and then work through other WG LC feedback (from Jurgen, And= y and Italo).

 

Please feel welcome to join and= help us drive this work forward. Even if you can't regularly participate i= t is good to have other WG members in the calls when you can.

 

Jason

 

-------------------------------= ---------------

Versioning work on Github:=

https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt

 

-------------------------------= ---------------

Weekly webex call details:=

 

Meeting number (access code): 1= 61 096 5630

Meeting password: semver?<= /o:p>

 

Occurs every Tuesday effective = Tuesday, November 16, 2021 from 9:00 AM to 10:00 AM, (UTC-05:00) Eastern Ti= me (US & Canada)

9:00 AM  |  (UTC-05:0= 0) Eastern Time (US & Canada)  |  1 hr

 

https://ietf.webex.= com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dme2c6491ebcc37b8127c1244d244d2754

Tap to join from a mobile devic= e (attendees only)

+1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## C= all-in toll number (US/Canada)

 

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