From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Mon Jul 3 03:27:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B8F9131540 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 03:27:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QfSPPojts_DU for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 03:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080CE131572 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 03:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psp3.ntp.org (localhost.ntp.org [127.0.0.1]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7868686DB04 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 10:27:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E2CF86D83B for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 10:27:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dRyZn-000JWR-5I for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2017 10:27:39 +0000 Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2227A131540; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 03:27:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149907765008.674.18020189947806078804@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 03:27:30 -0700 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 4.31.198.44 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: internet-drafts@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: [ntpwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ntp-mac-01.txt X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Time Protocol of the IETF. Title : Message Authentication Code for the Network Time Protocol Authors : Aanchal Malhotra Sharon Goldberg Filename : draft-ietf-ntp-mac-01.txt Pages : 4 Date : 2017-07-03 Abstract: RFC 5905 [RFC5905] states that Network Time Protocol (NTP) packets should be authenticated by appending a 128-bit key to the NTP data, and hashing the result with MD5 to obtain a 128-bit tag. This document deprecates MD5-based authentication, which is considered to be too weak, and recommends the use of AES-CMAC [RFC4493] as a replacement. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ntp-mac/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ntp-mac-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ntp-mac-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ntp-mac-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Thu Jul 27 21:38:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A8D128C81 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 21:38:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y-ZLi1JDE5HI for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 21:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B93132218 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 21:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28FF586DABE for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 04:38:53 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08DD86DAB8 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 13:44:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wm0-f53.google.com ([74.125.82.53]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dZHBh-000KeF-7s for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 13:44:57 +0000 Received: by mail-wm0-f53.google.com with SMTP id l81so13290307wmg.1 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 06:44:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:resent-from:resent-date:resent-message-id :resent-to:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version :content-disposition:user-agent; bh=Qdy2kh8MBL8IfvCWin9xhEJShgSJHEEc1wzuF/SJ7Rg=; b=AaG9UQPaZF6QiQWWE4UZlyjiqILPar1br4edu+SBgCoam9YrX4mYBmO9gsQvsp/g76 VMC/SAl0X6BnZiZS89aUhoTPiTzkzaDqUkZkUeFwpYdxTKl8G1skClkhoIlUtLODz1Kk Y/P+/IWz8wbw6In6KHUscM2fyWmRpPMQTv3mS/bY7Q7o+dL17Nf+3n+F7zC4lqANOiuo YxRD/Kp6TZIgJYWQOpN7sU3R8x5dN4ioqPRU08HHDuMPMsLbXzpPIU6HnfE4pktVrYkr J7uUkvL6FFPFWfDya1PjFOesTmcLLxF1/9YrOD51Cuj/knAbPza/a2cJ1MuzBd+YMCKq hd5g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113+MiLZNoOFP8dlby3FSUF5LsDazW2dmOV62U9Zdgwcs1V9QVl9 dAJNjUK0h61Wh6vlMUB36w== X-Received: by 10.80.137.131 with SMTP id g3mr10970693edg.125.1500817487370; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 06:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2001:67c:208c:10:b9ed:8fad:e4f0:7455]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m59sm3604046ede.94.2017.07.23.06.44.47 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 23 Jul 2017 06:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: Job Snijders Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 15:44:46 +0200 Resent-Message-ID: <20170723134446.zhjzvlnc3zmlvjf3@dhcp-9bef.meeting.ietf.org> Resent-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from localhost ([62.168.35.125]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q2sm18442837wmg.3.2017.07.18.07.04.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Jul 2017 07:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 16:04:23 +0200 From: Job Snijders To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Message-ID: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 74.125.82.53 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: job@instituut.net X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 04:38:49 +0000 Subject: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" Dear group, I have two suggestions that can go into draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization-01, I unicasted these to the authors but I should've sent them to the mailing list directly. The first suggestion comes straight from RFC7942 and serves to promote creation of running code and provides an overview of known running code. The second suggestion is to provide historical context and to provide an indicator that standardisation of (old) good practises is worthwhile. Kind regards, Job --- OLD: (none) NEW: 6. Implementation status - RFC EDITOR: REMOVE BEFORE PUBLICATION This section records the status of known implementations of the protocol defined by this specification at the time of posting of this Internet-Draft, and is based on a proposal described in RFC7942. The description of implementations in this section is intended to assist the IETF in its decision processes in progressing drafts to RFCs. Please note that the listing of any individual implementation here does not imply endorsement by the IETF. Furthermore, no effort has been spent to verify the information presented here that was supplied by IETF contributors. This is not intended as, and must not be construed to be, a catalog of available implementations or their features. Readers are advised to note that other implementations may exist. As of today the following vendors have produced an implementation of the NTP Client Data Minimization recommendations described in this document. OpenNTPD --- --- OLD: Appendix A. Acknowledgements The authors thank Prof. Sharon Goldberg and Miroslav Lichvar for calling attention to the issues addressed in this memo. NEW: Appendix A. Acknowledgements The authors would like to gratefully acknowledge Henning Brauer for pioneering NTP data minimization techniques as early as June 2004 as part of an NTP implementation for the OpenBSD Project. The authors would like to thank Prof. Sharon Goldberg and Miroslav Lichvar for encouraging standardisation of the approach described in this document. --- _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Thu Jul 27 22:15:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28150128B8D for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 22:15:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BURAlkvobCPF for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 22:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1A95126BF0 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 22:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 077CE86DB60 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 05:15:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from stenn.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E72186DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 05:15:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [::1] (helo=stenn.ntp.org) by stenn.ntp.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1daxcN-0002k2-Pc; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 05:15:19 +0000 From: Harlan Stenn To: Job Snijders In-reply-to: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> Comments: In-reply-to Job Snijders message dated "Tue, 18 Jul 2017 16:04:23 +0200." X-Mailer: MH-E 7.4.2; nmh 1.6; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 24) Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 1.8) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 05:15:19 +0000 Message-Id: Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" I believe the data minimization proposal is about to become an informational proposal, as everything it wants to do can be done by using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5905. -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Thu Jul 27 22:26:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0020E126BF0 for ; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Job Snijders wrote: > Dear group, > Hello job@ :) Please see: http://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/ntpwg/2017-May/003298.html _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 02:07:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13F3131FBD for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:07:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OKDoEsOkxMAs for ; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" Dear Harlan, On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0000, Harlan Stenn wrote: > I believe the data minimization proposal is about to become an > informational proposal, as everything it wants to do can be done by > using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5905. The choice the working group will have to make, is whether the WG merely wants to document that privacy enhancing tricks exist ("informational") or whether the data minimization techniques outlined should be mandatory for each (s)ntp client ("standards track"). Since the current draft updates 5905 (which is a standards track document) the update itself should probably be of on the standards level as well. I consider it a great feature that on-the-wire the proposed techniques is backwards compatible with the existing standards, however in my opinion it doesn't necessarily follow that because of 'backwards compatibility' the intended needs to be downgraded. I would appreciate if someone offers insight what the advantages are of downgrading the intended status, or what the downsides are of keeping the current intended status. Kind regards, Job ps. There was a 10 days delay for my email to make it to the list :( _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 02:33:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5CD1322AE for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:33:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jW3HSRrmRSXo for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795B413217D for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A31686DB7A for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:33:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6FD86DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:33:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wm0-f66.google.com ([74.125.82.66]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1db1eB-000Fgl-Pk for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:33:35 +0000 Received: by mail-wm0-f66.google.com with SMTP id x64so2371066wmg.1 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=jUltLG46JiA5FxKegmnuwozglxXe6/gXfpOVGCP/7eY=; b=HUf0S8M8URTY90SQnY8xKfMtWWjxHy73kzY3XmfdohE7VL5NDsoNaBdz/Lv40fMfnL 9qPu5k2g4FwVeLNGdCgkhrHG2AHv5vSYuTKkzqOahBSt9UstlkyOSETgb9Civ37vRsX9 va/UsZCc8vQtpoCHkR7Eo9enIyUV095ZHxwpS5yKSp34om5fD/3nsBeLUNgnzsU77X45 cTwlTa6sgaUXg/UotqHpvQqhCXqJ/YcRTuHCi1c9GYEUV60GZ+/3PXt4/v/JHs/uxBX6 St9ha9oQ5+Ie1KAdvACQvbIm9siSdVt+MKdqeOkNBs+SB/8MAXBCH2qj5mZH2sozingq +Mmw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111JpNw12dM/NCD2P9iHTZ3keShJkPtOMQYKAv4OvAqE7rCR3Mrn fPF/k38pzYEIDNXS X-Received: by 10.80.241.8 with SMTP id w8mr6058628edl.245.1501234406519; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2001:67c:208c:10:5caa:fb8c:ed60:f9cf]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c57sm3250933eda.46.2017.07.28.02.33.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:33:24 +0200 From: Job Snijders To: Loganaden Velvindron Message-ID: <20170728093324.eb5ewjrrkelsldho@Vurt.local> References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170714 (1.8.3) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 74.125.82.66 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: job@instituut.net X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" Dear Loganaden, On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 09:25:59AM +0400, Loganaden Velvindron wrote: > Please see: http://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/ntpwg/2017-May/003298.html I copy+pasted your message below: On Mon May 29 08:26:35 UTC 2017, Loganaden Velvindron wrote: > I've looked into openntpd, and transmit timestamp is already > randomized using arc4random(): > client.c line 188: > p->query->msg.xmttime.int_partl = arc4random(); > p->query->msg.xmttime.fractionl = arc4random(); > > Perhaps a small section could be added for open source implementations > who have already implemented this ? > > Also, suggest using arc4random() as an example of a randomization > function might offer guidance to implementors ? The working group needs to make a conscious choice whether to zero out those bits or fill those fields with random stuff (with arc4random() for example). Whatever the recommendation ends up being, it probably is one that we'd want as many clients as possible to follow to prevent giving away hints about the NTP client's operating system/implementation (since such meta-data can also compromise a degree of privacy). My personal preference would be to simly zero out the bits and suggest a patch to the openntpd project. Even the simplest of clients will be able to produce zeros in a very short timespan, I imagine not all clients have access to arc4 functions or sufficient entropy. Look forward to any feedback on this. Kind regards, Job _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 02:34:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15EDB1322B9 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:34:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bCfFZrufKS5Z for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1D91322B8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15C286DB07 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:34:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A987186DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:34:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from chessie.everett.org ([66.220.13.234]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1db1fI-000FkN-N9 for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:34:45 +0000 Received: from hms-mbp11.pfcs.com (96-41-166-181.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com [96.41.166.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ADBDEB909; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:34:35 +0000 (UTC) To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:34:35 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" Hi Job, On 7/28/17 2:06 AM, Job Snijders wrote: > Dear Harlan, > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0000, Harlan Stenn wrote: >> I believe the data minimization proposal is about to become an >> informational proposal, as everything it wants to do can be done by >> using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5905. > > The choice the working group will have to make, is whether the WG merely > wants to document that privacy enhancing tricks exist ("informational") > or whether the data minimization techniques outlined should be mandatory > for each (s)ntp client ("standards track"). > > Since the current draft updates 5905 (which is a standards track > document) the update itself should probably be of on the standards level > as well. The current draft *proposes* to update RFC5905. I was passing along Dave's comments, and my recollection from the WG meeting was that the authors were ready to make the document informational. I had some other comments to the proposal that I submitted that haven't been published to the mailing list yet. > I consider it a great feature that on-the-wire the proposed techniques > is backwards compatible with the existing standards, however in my > opinion it doesn't necessarily follow that because of 'backwards > compatibility' the intended needs to be downgraded. > > I would appreciate if someone offers insight what the advantages are of > downgrading the intended status, or what the downsides are of keeping > the current intended status. The proposal simply describes one way to implement what is already present in RFC5905, section 14, the last paragraph, which states: An SNTP client implementing the on-wire protocol has a single server and no dependent clients. It can operate with any subset of the NTP on-wire protocol, the simplest approach using only the transmit timestamp of the server packet and ignoring all other fields. However, the additional complexity to implement the full on-wire protocol is minimal so that a full implementation is encouraged. The data minimization proposal (ie, minimal data in an SNTP packet) is great for client mode. It is not something that should be used for other modes. > Kind regards, > > Job > > ps. There was a 10 days delay for my email to make it to the list :( Yes, there was a problem with the list and it's only now being fixed. As Karen said in the meeting, when the mailing list works there's no rush to move it, and the list has been working fine for a while. It broke just before the meeting. NTF doesn't yet have the support to hire a sysadmin, and the existing volunteer sysadmins have real jobs and limited time. -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 02:35:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FDA31322BE for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:35:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vB2r881rVEF8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B633E1322BC for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73AB186DB83 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:34:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C024F86DB03 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:34:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1db1fR-000FkT-TJ for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:34:53 +0000 Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226E413217D; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:34:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.57.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150123448510.25225.6142836802077038617@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:34:45 -0700 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 4.31.198.44 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: internet-drafts@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: [ntpwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization-01.txt X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Time Protocol WG of the IETF. Title : NTP Client Data Minimization Authors : Daniel Fox Franke Aanchal Malhotra Filename : draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization-01.txt Pages : 6 Date : 2017-07-28 Abstract: This memo proposes backward-compatible updates to the Network Time Protocol to strip unnecessary identifying information from client requests and to improve resilience against blind spoofing of unauthenticated server responses. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 02:52:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EAAE13217D for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:52:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fjS8-BjlQUAh for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4385D129B26 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CB6C86DB77 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:52:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2025586DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:52:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wm0-f65.google.com ([74.125.82.65]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1db1we-000GH2-9a for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:52:40 +0000 Received: by mail-wm0-f65.google.com with SMTP id y206so3714370wmd.5 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:52:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=Nw1V9aPns6XWfE6GKxWi8XJzmDwLBBxDBaCgMVu6G70=; b=ZQekfpm89shr2afX9T0nMiCzupCTmzw8nkPPP2F1p+ELclTtjAwKKre5tQv85Pr0PK qkDCXyB8xsBdPEqy3EtWv9eSBJDxRPyMBQHm8dbuWjO9+TdYlANOsfH6lqaqriqCii35 WghW5CILpwini7mk83T2ylA2FVB857sME7FlQKVwFraQ/mP9MfHWykxMvpNnaQLkKgba ZhHoUpkSXLNPu1NVMuukCCJCtwOp4hrjEZNctEehOObGIVkaGn4lonksoVCsiCZLPSkK yzbwst4P+7X2gktaLCkexURXLNw2qCbaKT/Dnxy/bRkISR6n5X4S2+C2LwhJl3CmvO9r sfRw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112Qsn+s8OIsOMf1+ye6TD8SmSpfs3erv+fJ/XNw3LyB0QK2BMBL fc6B0qXfFDh8PGgEAw1kpg== X-Received: by 10.80.139.65 with SMTP id l59mr6158234edl.52.1501235550814; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2001:67c:208c:10:5caa:fb8c:ed60:f9cf]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y55sm1682620edb.7.2017.07.28.02.52.29 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:52:28 +0200 From: Job Snijders To: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170714 (1.8.3) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 74.125.82.65 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: job@instituut.net X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" Dear all, On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 02:34:35AM -0700, Harlan Stenn wrote: > On 7/28/17 2:06 AM, Job Snijders wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0000, Harlan Stenn wrote: > >> I believe the data minimization proposal is about to become an > >> informational proposal, as everything it wants to do can be done by > >> using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5905. > > > > The choice the working group will have to make, is whether the WG > > merely wants to document that privacy enhancing tricks exist > > ("informational") or whether the data minimization techniques > > outlined should be mandatory for each (s)ntp client ("standards > > track"). > > > > Since the current draft updates 5905 (which is a standards track > > document) the update itself should probably be of on the standards > > level as well. > > The current draft *proposes* to update RFC5905. Yes, I understand drafts are proposals. > I was passing along Dave's comments, and my recollection from the WG > meeting was that the authors were ready to make the document > informational. I've reviewed the video recording from the working group meeting and I don't believe clear consensus was reached. The authors clearly indicated a desire to get something published on this topic. My interpretation was that they are willing to continue dialogue regarding the intended status. Since this is a working group document, even if the authors think that "Informational" is an appropiate status for this document I'd like to that reflected through discussion on the mailing list. At this moment I don't see a clear reason to downgrade the intended status, specifically in context of https://www.iab.org/2014/11/14/iab-statement-on-internet-confidentiality/ > I had some other comments to the proposal that I submitted that > haven't been published to the mailing list yet. > > > I consider it a great feature that on-the-wire the proposed > > techniques is backwards compatible with the existing standards, > > however in my opinion it doesn't necessarily follow that because of > > 'backwards compatibility' the intended needs to be downgraded. > > > > I would appreciate if someone offers insight what the advantages are > > of downgrading the intended status, or what the downsides are of > > keeping the current intended status. > > The proposal simply describes one way to implement what is already > present in RFC5905, section 14, the last paragraph, which states: > > An SNTP client implementing the on-wire protocol has a single server > and no dependent clients. It can operate with any subset of the NTP > on-wire protocol, the simplest approach using only the transmit > timestamp of the server packet and ignoring all other fields. > However, the additional complexity to implement the full on-wire > protocol is minimal so that a full implementation is encouraged. The above text paints a broader picture of what is possible, and subsequently what draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization can do is narrow down those possibilities to a specific subset, decorated with normative terms to encourage implementers to do things a specific way, based on experience gathered in the years between publication of 5905 and now. In other words: the fact that draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization fits within what is outlined in Section 14 of RFC 5905; by itself is not an indicator whether the draft's intended status should be Standards or Informational. > The data minimization proposal (ie, minimal data in an SNTP packet) is > great for client mode. It is not something that should be used for > other modes. Yes, the draft confines itself to mode 3, the last paragraph of the Introduction section reads: """ This memo updates RFC 5905 to redact unnecessary data from mode 3 packets. This is a fully backwards-compatible proposal. It calls for no changes on the server side, and clients which implement these updates will remain fully interoperable with existing servers. """ Do you feel additional clarification is needed? Kind regards, Job _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 03:36:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E961322C0 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 03:36:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1JvoHgD3uPsQ for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 03:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E414013192B for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 03:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4D086DB79 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 10:36:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C23886DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 10:36:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from relay69.bu.edu ([128.197.228.69]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1db2dK-000Mt3-1M for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 10:36:46 +0000 X-Envelope-From: aanchal4@bu.edu Received: from mail-oi0-f69.google.com (mail-oi0-f69.google.com [209.85.218.69]) by relay69.bu.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id v6SAaC1Y028456 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 06:36:12 -0400 Received: by mail-oi0-f69.google.com with SMTP id v11so10453602oif.2 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 03:36:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CI4785Ao0MJz7rKdxLxwA0NEV+h3fiBlK6KzPHdVBuY=; b=lYTNVP3IKHi+CGs4SRQrRIqxV2BGbEU0CFtu+BqngAyZnTLyyUXv2Rp0gHTcjTGo4T OBMFVEuX2CE74D620ymFzZBI5gT65zISVVFGMjoG/9vFR0H3OJhrnRVTNuWaCWfdGKzM ZVWleBCo1+2E43nZegcaZW4w0jWMHpIAdWLqLxSNtUBfy2UD+FoptRmK8PFwoKjI5SPY i2Wn7t5xoZ1sOpRsOObWPx0jMEzpLlGO4BsCfr6kcSH3cV0+dwW7noAqhuQ/EQZjwlCB S5I+/8O9G5b4xpwrbSeW46VcjCvg5KPgM4Yhai4Q0ygXSXg6PWRpDDmvoQ4HCsCjyWcF Cfyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112zMhzsKu4Af5v0WjCW9rbpbkcl94cUjNfMrQr5quAzGgg6h+Z2 7Y4sI5lC31qTiGIabo7yklr+98RAqOmA2ul89DFenjkeVVvN9eK4Ouv8U/mMFQC9qygGIW21Ent rrqJ5VJDftCJKbUvHmtLk X-Received: by 10.202.208.79 with SMTP id h76mr6844767oig.65.1501238171955; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 03:36:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.202.208.79 with SMTP id h76mr6844758oig.65.1501238171753; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 03:36:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.74.152.129 with HTTP; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 03:35:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170728093324.eb5ewjrrkelsldho@Vurt.local> References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728093324.eb5ewjrrkelsldho@Vurt.local> From: Aanchal Malhotra Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 12:35:51 +0200 Message-ID: To: Job Snijders X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 128.197.228.69 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: aanchal4@bu.edu X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: NTP Working Group Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8219131126682032678==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============8219131126682032678== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113e4038f379d805555e3fd6" --001a113e4038f379d805555e3fd6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Job Snijders wrote: > Dear Loganaden, > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 09:25:59AM +0400, Loganaden Velvindron wrote: > > Please see: http://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/ntpwg/2017-May/003298.html > > I copy+pasted your message below: > > On Mon May 29 08:26:35 UTC 2017, Loganaden Velvindron wrote: > > I've looked into openntpd, and transmit timestamp is already > > randomized using arc4random(): > > client.c line 188: > > p->query->msg.xmttime.int_partl = arc4random(); > > p->query->msg.xmttime.fractionl = arc4random(); > > > > Perhaps a small section could be added for open source implementations > > who have already implemented this ? > > > > Also, suggest using arc4random() as an example of a randomization > > function might offer guidance to implementors ? > > The working group needs to make a conscious choice whether to zero out > those bits or fill those fields with random stuff (with arc4random() for > example). > > Whatever the recommendation ends up being, it probably is one that we'd > want as many clients as possible to follow to prevent giving away hints > about the NTP client's operating system/implementation (since such > meta-data can also compromise a degree of privacy). > > My personal preference would be to simly zero out the bits and suggest a > patch to the openntpd project. Even the simplest of clients will be able > to produce zeros in a very short timespan, I imagine not all clients > have access to arc4 functions or sufficient entropy. > I agree! The current draft proposes to zero out the bits for unused fields (which excludes the transmit timestamp ofcourse) in the mode 3 client packet. I don't see any particular advantage in randomizing those bits. Please bring to my notice if there is any. > > Look forward to any feedback on this. > > Kind regards, > > Job > _______________________________________________ > ntpwg mailing list > ntpwg@lists.ntp.org > http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg > --001a113e4038f379d805555e3fd6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Job Snijders <job@ntt.net> w= rote:
Dear Loganaden,<= br>
On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 09:25:59AM +0400, Loganaden Velvindron wrote:
> Please see: http://lists.ntp.org/piper= mail/ntpwg/2017-May/003298.html

I copy+pasted your message below:

On Mon May 29 08:26:35 UTC 2017, Loganaden Velvindron wrote:
> I've looked into openntpd, and transmit timestamp=C2=A0 is already=
> randomized using arc4random():
> client.c line 188:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0p->query->msg.xmttime.int_partl =3D arc4random();
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0p->query->msg.xmttime.fractionl =3D arc4random();
>
> Perhaps a small section could be added for open source implementations=
> who have already implemented this ?
>
> Also, suggest using arc4random() as an example of a randomization
> function might offer guidance to implementors ?

The working group needs to make a conscious choice whether to zero out
those bits or fill those fields with random stuff (with arc4random() for example).

Whatever the recommendation ends up being, it probably is one that we'd=
want as many clients as possible to follow to prevent giving away hints
about the NTP client's operating system/implementation (since such
meta-data can also compromise a degree of privacy).

My personal preference would be to simly zero out the bits and suggest a patch to the openntpd project. Even the simplest of clients will be able to produce zeros in a very short timespan, I imagine not all clients
have access to arc4 functions or sufficient entropy.
<= br>
I agree! The current draft proposes to zero out the bits for = unused fields (which excludes the transmit timestamp ofcourse) in the mode= 3 client packet. I don't see any particular advantage in randomizing t= hose bits. Please bring to my notice if there is any.

Look forward to any feedback on this.

Kind regards,

Job
_______________________________________________
ntpwg mailing list
ntpwg@lists.ntp.or= g
http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg

--001a113e4038f379d805555e3fd6-- --===============8219131126682032678== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============8219131126682032678==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 04:24:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AAFC131C21 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 04:24:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BYm5OGDeaTVi for ; 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Fri, 28 Jul 2017 03:35:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> From: Aanchal Malhotra Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 12:35:34 +0200 Message-ID: To: Harlan Stenn X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 128.197.228.61 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: aanchal4@bu.edu X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: NTP Working Group Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4305957828129463801==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============4305957828129463801== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113e7cf2edd4c105555e3eeb" --001a113e7cf2edd4c105555e3eeb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Harlan Stenn wrote: > Hi Job, > > On 7/28/17 2:06 AM, Job Snijders wrote: > > Dear Harlan, > > > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0000, Harlan Stenn wrote: > >> I believe the data minimization proposal is about to become an > >> informational proposal, as everything it wants to do can be done by > >> using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5905. > > > > The choice the working group will have to make, is whether the WG merely > > wants to document that privacy enhancing tricks exist ("informational") > > or whether the data minimization techniques outlined should be mandatory > > for each (s)ntp client ("standards track"). > > > > Since the current draft updates 5905 (which is a standards track > > document) the update itself should probably be of on the standards level > > as well. > > The current draft *proposes* to update RFC5905. > > I was passing along Dave's comments, and my recollection from the WG > meeting was that the authors were ready to make the document > informational. I had some other comments to the proposal that I > submitted that haven't been published to the mailing list yet. > We never agreed on the status of the document to be "Informational". The only consensus we reached at the WG meeting was to get the document published. The intended status of the document has always been "Standards Track". This document updates RFC5905 by concretely specifying the methods of data minimization for (S)NTP as opposed to a general statement in the section 14 of RFC5905. So I would prefer the document to be "Standards Track" to encourage as broad as possible deployment by making this behavior part of the core NTP specification. > > > I consider it a great feature that on-the-wire the proposed techniques > > is backwards compatible with the existing standards, however in my > > opinion it doesn't necessarily follow that because of 'backwards > > compatibility' the intended needs to be downgraded. > > > > I would appreciate if someone offers insight what the advantages are of > > downgrading the intended status, or what the downsides are of keeping > > the current intended status. > > The proposal simply describes one way to implement what is already > present in RFC5905, section 14, the last paragraph, which states: > > An SNTP client implementing the on-wire protocol has a single server > and no dependent clients. It can operate with any subset of the NTP > on-wire protocol, the simplest approach using only the transmit > timestamp of the server packet and ignoring all other fields. > However, the additional complexity to implement the full on-wire > protocol is minimal so that a full implementation is encouraged. > > The data minimization proposal (ie, minimal data in an SNTP packet) is > great for client mode. It is not something that should be used for > other modes. > > > Kind regards, > > > > Job > > > > ps. There was a 10 days delay for my email to make it to the list :( > > Yes, there was a problem with the list and it's only now being fixed. > > As Karen said in the meeting, when the mailing list works there's no > rush to move it, and the list has been working fine for a while. It > broke just before the meeting. NTF doesn't yet have the support to hire > a sysadmin, and the existing volunteer sysadmins have real jobs and > limited time. > > -- > Harlan Stenn > http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! > _______________________________________________ > ntpwg mailing list > ntpwg@lists.ntp.org > http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg > --001a113e7cf2edd4c105555e3eeb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org>= ; wrote:
Hi Job= ,

On 7/28/17 2:06 AM, Job Snijders wrote:
> Dear Harlan,
>
> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0000, Harlan Stenn wrote:
>> I believe the data minimization proposal is about to become an
>> informational proposal, as everything it wants to do can be done b= y
>> using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5905.
>
> The choice the working group will have to make, is whether the WG mere= ly
> wants to document that privacy enhancing tricks exist ("informati= onal")
> or whether the data minimization techniques outlined should be mandato= ry
> for each (s)ntp client ("standards track").
>
> Since the current draft updates 5905 (which is a standards track
> document) the update itself should probably be of on the standards lev= el
> as well.

The current draft *proposes* to update RFC5905.

I was passing along Dave's comments, and my recollection from the WG meeting was that the authors were ready to make the document
informational.=C2=A0 I had some other comments to the proposal that I
submitted that haven't been published to the mailing list yet.

We never agreed on the status of the document t= o be "Informational". The only consensus we reached at the WG mee= ting was to get the document published. The intended status of the document= has always been "Standards Track". This document updates RFC5905= by concretely specifying the methods of data minimization for (S)NTP as op= posed to a general statement in the section 14 of RFC5905. So I would prefe= r=C2=A0 the document to be "Standards Track&q= uot; to encourage as broad as possible depl= oyment by making this behavior part of the core NTP specification.

> I consider it a great feature that on-the-wire the proposed techniques=
> is backwards compatible with the existing standards, however in my
> opinion it doesn't necessarily follow that because of 'backwar= ds
> compatibility' the intended needs to be downgraded.
>
> I would appreciate if someone offers insight what the advantages are o= f
> downgrading the intended status, or what the downsides are of keeping<= br> > the current intended status.

The proposal simply describes one way to implement what is already present in RFC5905, section 14, the last paragraph, which states:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0An SNTP client implementing the on-wire protocol has a single = server
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and no dependent clients.=C2=A0 It can operate with any subset= of the NTP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0on-wire protocol, the simplest approach using only the transmi= t
=C2=A0 =C2=A0timestamp of the server packet and ignoring all other fields.<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0However, the additional complexity to implement the full on-wi= re
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol is minimal so that a full implementation is encourage= d.

The data minimization proposal (ie, minimal data in an SNTP packet) is
great for client mode.=C2=A0 It is not something that should be used for other modes.

> Kind regards,
>
> Job
>
> ps. There was a 10 days delay for my email to make it to the list :(
Yes, there was a problem with the list and it's only now being f= ixed.

As Karen said in the meeting, when the mailing list works there's no rush to move it, and the list has been working fine for a while.=C2=A0 It broke just before the meeting.=C2=A0 NTF doesn't yet have the support t= o hire
a sysadmin, and the existing volunteer sysadmins have real jobs and
limited time.

--
Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org&g= t;
http://networkti= mefoundation.org - be a member!
________________= _______________________________
ntpwg mailing list
ntpwg@lists.ntp.org
http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg

--001a113e7cf2edd4c105555e3eeb-- --===============4305957828129463801== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============4305957828129463801==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 05:40:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DF2B131BFB for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 05:40:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LPKr3wQSKPwY for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 05:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FDA912778D for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 05:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D579E86DB86 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 12:40:01 +0000 (UTC) To: Job Snijders , Harlan Stenn Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 12:39:46 +0000 References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> In-Reply-To: <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Post: From: "Salz, Rich via ntpwg" Precedence: list Cc: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Reply-To: "Salz, Rich" List-Help: Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1813667677037292396==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============1813667677037292396== Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 192EB86DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 12:39:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com ([67.231.157.127]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1db4YX-0000xS-Ly for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 12:39:58 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Data minim= ization is an important part of IETF goals these days. The fact that it can be done in a major client without code changes is grea= t. But should not affect the value of the document. --===============1813667677037292396== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============1813667677037292396==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 08:02:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95ED1129B5B for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:02:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.292 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.292 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XARVSZsFFORr for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B4D127B60 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7213886DB45 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:02:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D6686DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:02:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-qk0-f182.google.com ([209.85.220.182]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1db6mB-0006SD-B1 for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:02:13 +0000 Received: by mail-qk0-f182.google.com with SMTP id u139so58577750qka.1 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:02:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Qw8yEI861qY5wqdF5VYXYJOTgB1gIaQqfpdkfajs4qQ=; b=Zt+6Q5L5+3wxf0A4BqcNsjNu+htk/VStulJTpY9TWjiPo0seEkvwRibYlx5faFdmJD MIiKH7yg/bOCdoOrdbDliaxzS0uPIWaaS9IM1sohGtx6nnMwrYZ+7MB74OvFmiPSAJ1P 82JYK8yOS/cBQGRc6PaqFrBcMwn/TF9IV1cGatih/YE4ZhNIhfib8HDjIPPofJ6IIXt6 cZgWeRtymQ3jWTOUNPLuXQPmJHq2t0oJdnjBdLhy7vvDPZ1+AJjxUEtNXxtw4xmM6+M0 qsnrtXVc+QbvjEralL+rhwjnwZKAQTaVY0dSVhDOJ7mbSe8Zwx93ktWSlpcyJ9bVOVzA c4nA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Qw8yEI861qY5wqdF5VYXYJOTgB1gIaQqfpdkfajs4qQ=; b=INfnJI5YocmDOr7jI+FIufBigh0GOo7i4nBVQbB1XCPlLIkOLXZw33+GaKJOqG6O5Z NVI4P+cjpD7CwdntVEVywR7ePgACocNOUSOcMu1sv1o3JSfPFvvgknPwBi/m3ddyHVxW ihQq6GezJICk+PiQGrAvbEqszaBq2hYbCwgReq/Kqf/0bRxoOd2cnGS6XChiCgIysCph cTBw85PkCwNsYse2nyPHNy7ZWrL/wKyYOR/cAEIps64VWKtEguF6lVCKrCK/O024yt0+ +pVXqK8QZOTuecscDyBYles2VgYLUiAaDT0z3ekQfNVtOKj5cjhhN9SS0GN08TVFKRyA u/8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw1102XjqEPORlDBmRGmVkRpKRg6YmtIPQis3DRzdVnD1iPr2eJlmS Ml7y4bQhBGd+rFcd X-Received: by 10.55.103.141 with SMTP id b135mr10114770qkc.16.1501254122284; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.138] (d-24-245-108-20.cpe.metrocast.net. [24.245.108.20]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id n21sm15717765qkl.51.2017.07.28.08.02.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:02:01 -0700 (PDT) References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> To: "Salz, Rich" , Job Snijders , Harlan Stenn From: Karen ODonoghue Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:02:01 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 209.85.220.182 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: kodonog@gmail.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: kodonog@pobox.com Cc: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" I agree with Rich. Given the guidance from the IESG, this should be standards track. Karen On 7/28/17 8:39 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > This should not be informational, it should be standards track. Data minimization is an important part of IETF goals these days. > > The fact that it can be done in a major client without code changes is great. But should not affect the value of the document. _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 08:51:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567E9131CA2 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:51:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=isoc.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mi-wYTM6f-2j for ; 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bh=P6B9Ytkuw6zIJ81Gz2MNd5xi+iKxqWSTTFJAH6GJuws=; b=QZAxsKwkWpw/8jwa34gk028jK/sC/MxqXZrAOt+aQDpK6P+EV79Jp3muDMhCLzKV6pxQCLYgqADV68gv8+MGwPg51I2wzjyaJJEzzCTpUBJBib/q/X5WJFpaVPlD1yur2sBXUsET1AMA92v5jDo9blzloGsvBDt1RhZQ52TTZZA= Received: from CY4PR06MB2456.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.169.186.136) by CY4PR06MB2453.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.169.185.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1304.14; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:51:02 +0000 Received: from CY4PR06MB2456.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([10.169.186.136]) by CY4PR06MB2456.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([10.169.186.136]) with mapi id 15.01.1282.023; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:51:02 +0000 From: Karen O'Donoghue To: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" Thread-Topic: ntp working group mailing list outage Thread-Index: AQHTB7lQHDHG4ARdEUqmlVd8/nupsA== Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:51:02 +0000 Message-ID: <98D00486-1526-42E7-9226-3BC99D8934A8@isoc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=odonoghue@isoc.org; 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boundary="===============3160605506563627571==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============3160605506563627571== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_018F1E60-D5A1-4BF8-B8E0-13FEAD511B3A"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 --Apple-Mail=_018F1E60-D5A1-4BF8-B8E0-13FEAD511B3A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Folks, Unfortunately, the IETF ntp working group mailing list has been down for = a few weeks. If you sent any messages between 3 July and 28 July, please = resend as soon as possible. While the list was probably not down this = entire time, this is the gap represented in the archives.=20 We will be transitioning shortly to a list maintained on IETF = infrastructure (ntp@ietf.org). Most of you are already subscribed to = this list, but we haven=E2=80=99t been using it. We are going to compare = the membership of the two lists and be adding those missing to the new = list and ensure the archive is properly handled. This will take a bit of = time. Stay tuned... In the meantime, please resend anything that didn=E2=80=99t make the = actual list.=20 Our sincerest thanks to Harlan Stenn, Brad Knowles, and the NTP = Foundation for the long time support of the IETF NTP working group! They = have been maintaining this list for us since November 2004!=20 Regards, Karen and Dieter= --Apple-Mail=_018F1E60-D5A1-4BF8-B8E0-13FEAD511B3A Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIRfTCCBXQw ggRcoAMCAQICECdm7lbrSfOOq9dwovyE3iIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEMBQAwbzELMAkGA1UEBhMCU0Ux FDASBgNVBAoTC0FkZFRydXN0IEFCMSYwJAYDVQQLEx1BZGRUcnVzdCBFeHRlcm5hbCBUVFAgTmV0 d29yazEiMCAGA1UEAxMZQWRkVHJ1c3QgRXh0ZXJuYWwgQ0EgUm9vdDAeFw0wMDA1MzAxMDQ4Mzha Fw0yMDA1MzAxMDQ4MzhaMIGFMQswCQYDVQQGEwJHQjEbMBkGA1UECBMSR3JlYXRlciBNYW5jaGVz dGVyMRAwDgYDVQQHEwdTYWxmb3JkMRowGAYDVQQKExFDT01PRE8gQ0EgTGltaXRlZDErMCkGA1UE AxMiQ09NT0RPIFJTQSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTCCAiIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAD ggIPADCCAgoCggIBAJHoVJLSClaxrA0k3cXPRGd0mSs3o30jcABxvFPfxPoqEo9LfxBWvZ9wcrdh f8lLDxenPeOwBGHu/xGXx/SGPgr6Plz5k+Y0etkUa+ecs4Wggnp2r3GQ1+z9DfqcbPrfsIL0FH75 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H:CY4PR06MB2456.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: isoc.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Jul 2017 15:58:06.8497 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR06MB2455 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 104.47.38.67 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: odonoghue@isoc.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: [ntpwg] Fwd: Reminder: NTP / TICTOC working group meeting (18 July, 07:30 UTC) X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0032124117965075035==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============0032124117965075035== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_755EADAF-4909-46CB-B91E-265EA3AD9010"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 --Apple-Mail=_755EADAF-4909-46CB-B91E-265EA3AD9010 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C08A745D-66C0-4B7A-BC8E-B96DA185E19A" --Apple-Mail=_C08A745D-66C0-4B7A-BC8E-B96DA185E19A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 This is OBE now, but I include it here for archiving. It did make it = onto the tictoc mailing list.=20 > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Karen O'Donoghue > Subject: Reminder: NTP / TICTOC working group meeting (18 July, 07:30 = UTC) > Date: July 17, 2017 at 12:26:34 PM EDT > To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org, tictoc@ietf.org >=20 > Folks, >=20 > Just a quick reminder that the ntp and tictoc joint working group = meeting will be tomorrow at 9:30 am CEST (7:30 am UTC). I know this is a = bad time for our regular US based remote participants, but perhaps those = of you on the west coast could join.=20 >=20 > Link to agenda:=20 > https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/agenda/agenda-99-ntp-00.txt >=20 > Remote participation details are available on the meeting website=E2=80=A6= =20 > https://www.ietf.org/meeting/99/index.html >=20 > Karen >=20 --Apple-Mail=_C08A745D-66C0-4B7A-BC8E-B96DA185E19A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 This is OBE now, but I include it here for archiving. It did = make it onto the tictoc mailing list. 

Begin = forwarded message:

From: = Karen O'Donoghue <odonoghue@isoc.org>
Subject: = Reminder: NTP / = TICTOC working group meeting (18 July, 07:30 UTC)
Date: = July 17, 2017 at 12:26:34 PM = EDT
To: = ntpwg@lists.ntp.org, = tictoc@ietf.org

Folks,

Just a quick reminder = that the ntp and tictoc joint working group meeting will be tomorrow at = 9:30 am CEST (7:30 am UTC). I know this is a bad time for our regular US = based remote participants, but perhaps those of you on the west coast = could join.

Link to agenda:
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/agenda/agenda-99-ntp-00.txt=

Remote participation details are = available on the meeting website=E2=80=A6
https://www.ietf.org/meeting/99/index.html

Karen


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list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============0032124117965075035==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 14:09:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4448C132161 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:09:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JvRC0LvDIL2l for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34AF9131F93 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67A7A86DB8A for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:09:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D743186DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:09:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from chessie.everett.org ([66.220.13.234]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbCVE-000IVE-D6 for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:09:05 +0000 Received: from hms-mbp11.pfcs.com (96-41-166-181.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com [96.41.166.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3A3DEB931; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:08:55 +0000 (UTC) To: Aanchal Malhotra References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: <9d8ff878-63d3-c3ab-5be6-131f49f0cf8e@nwtime.org> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:08:53 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: NTP Working Group Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" On 7/28/17 3:35 AM, Aanchal Malhotra wrote: > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Harlan Stenn wrote: > >> Hi Job, >> >> On 7/28/17 2:06 AM, Job Snijders wrote: >>> Dear Harlan, >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0000, Harlan Stenn wrote: >>>> I believe the data minimization proposal is about to become an >>>> informational proposal, as everything it wants to do can be done by >>>> using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5905. >>> >>> The choice the working group will have to make, is whether the WG merely >>> wants to document that privacy enhancing tricks exist ("informational") >>> or whether the data minimization techniques outlined should be mandatory >>> for each (s)ntp client ("standards track"). >>> >>> Since the current draft updates 5905 (which is a standards track >>> document) the update itself should probably be of on the standards level >>> as well. >> >> The current draft *proposes* to update RFC5905. >> >> I was passing along Dave's comments, and my recollection from the WG >> meeting was that the authors were ready to make the document >> informational. I had some other comments to the proposal that I >> submitted that haven't been published to the mailing list yet. >> > > We never agreed on the status of the document to be "Informational". The > only consensus we reached at the WG meeting was to get the document > published. The intended status of the document has always been "Standards > Track". This document updates RFC5905 by concretely specifying the methods > of data minimization for (S)NTP as opposed to a general statement in the > section 14 of RFC5905. So I would prefer the document to be "Standards > Track" to encourage as broad as possible deployment by making this behavior > part of the core NTP specification. Then I completely mis-heard and misunderstood you and Daniel. I'm fine having this as an OPTION for client queries. But it's already clearly permitted behavior for an SNTP client, so it's not adding anything new. If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for all CLIENT (mode 3), what you're talking about is no longer NTP, and you should propose an alternative Standard for your purposes. If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for more than CLIENT (mode 3) requests, what you are talking about is no longer NTP, and you should propose an alternative Standard for your purposes. There are plenty of use-cases where the existing behavior is useful and desirable. It is wrong to prohibit these cases. -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 14:11:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACBA713217C for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:11:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9rOs9xLXDRK4 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E57132161 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0600F86DB83 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:11:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F126E86DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:11:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from chessie.everett.org ([66.220.13.234]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbCXm-000Icv-Se for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:11:43 +0000 Received: from hms-mbp11.pfcs.com (96-41-166-181.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com [96.41.166.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E0F0AB931; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:11:33 +0000 (UTC) To: "Salz, Rich" , Job Snijders References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:11:33 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" On 7/28/17 5:39 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > This should not be informational, it should be standards track. Data minimization is an important part of IETF goals these days. > > The fact that it can be done in a major client without code changes is great. But should not affect the value of the document. Then let's clean up RFC5095, section 14, last paragraph. The data minimization must be OPTIONAL, and it must clearly be limited to CLIENT (mode 3) packets. -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 14:14:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 477631277BB for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:14:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j1RVf0tfToFX for ; 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Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:14:27 +0000 (UTC) To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org References: <98D00486-1526-42E7-9226-3BC99D8934A8@isoc.org> From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:14:26 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <98D00486-1526-42E7-9226-3BC99D8934A8@isoc.org> Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] ntp working group mailing list outage X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" CgpPbiA3LzI4LzE3IDg6NTEgQU0sIEthcmVuIE8nRG9ub2dodWUgd3JvdGU6Cj4gRm9sa3MsCj4g Cj4gVW5mb3J0dW5hdGVseSwgdGhlIElFVEYgbnRwIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0 IGhhcyBiZWVuIGRvd24gZm9yIGEgZmV3IHdlZWtzLiBJZiB5b3Ugc2VudCBhbnkgbWVzc2FnZXMg YmV0d2VlbiAzIEp1bHkgYW5kIDI4IEp1bHksIHBsZWFzZSByZXNlbmQgYXMgc29vbiBhcyBwb3Nz aWJsZS4gV2hpbGUgdGhlIGxpc3Qgd2FzIHByb2JhYmx5IG5vdCBkb3duIHRoaXMgZW50aXJlIHRp bWUsIHRoaXMgaXMgdGhlIGdhcCByZXByZXNlbnRlZCBpbiB0aGUgYXJjaGl2ZXMuIAo+IAo+IFdl IHdpbGwgYmUgdHJhbnNpdGlvbmluZyBzaG9ydGx5IHRvIGEgbGlzdCBtYWludGFpbmVkIG9uIElF VEYgaW5mcmFzdHJ1Y3R1cmUgKG50cEBpZXRmLm9yZykuIE1vc3Qgb2YgeW91IGFyZSBhbHJlYWR5 IHN1YnNjcmliZWQgdG8gdGhpcyBsaXN0LCBidXQgd2UgaGF2ZW7igJl0IGJlZW4gdXNpbmcgaXQu IFdlIGFyZSBnb2luZyB0byBjb21wYXJlIHRoZSBtZW1iZXJzaGlwIG9mIHRoZSB0d28gbGlzdHMg YW5kIGJlIGFkZGluZyB0aG9zZSBtaXNzaW5nIHRvIHRoZSBuZXcgbGlzdCBhbmQgZW5zdXJlIHRo ZSBhcmNoaXZlIGlzIHByb3Blcmx5IGhhbmRsZWQuIFRoaXMgd2lsbCB0YWtlIGEgYml0IG9mIHRp bWUuIFN0YXkgdHVuZWQuLi4KPiAKPiBJbiB0aGUgbWVhbnRpbWUsIHBsZWFzZSByZXNlbmQgYW55 dGhpbmcgdGhhdCBkaWRu4oCZdCBtYWtlIHRoZSBhY3R1YWwgbGlzdC4gCj4gCj4gT3VyIHNpbmNl cmVzdCB0aGFua3MgdG8gSGFybGFuIFN0ZW5uLCBCcmFkIEtub3dsZXMsIGFuZCB0aGUgTlRQIEZv dW5kYXRpb24gZm9yIHRoZSBsb25nIHRpbWUgc3VwcG9ydCBvZiB0aGUgSUVURiBOVFAgd29ya2lu ZyBncm91cCEgVGhleSBoYXZlIGJlZW4gbWFpbnRhaW5pbmcgdGhpcyBsaXN0IGZvciB1cyBzaW5j ZSBOb3ZlbWJlciAyMDA0ISAKClRoYXQgd291bGQgYmUgTmV0d29yayBUaW1lIEZvdW5kYXRpb24g LSB0aGVyZSBpcyBubyBOVFAgRm91bmRhdGlvbi4KCj4gUmVnYXJkcywKPiBLYXJlbiBhbmQgRGll dGVyCj4gCj4gCj4gCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX18KPiBudHB3ZyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKPiBudHB3Z0BsaXN0cy5udHAub3JnCj4gaHR0cDov L2xpc3RzLm50cC5vcmcvbGlzdGluZm8vbnRwd2cKPiAKCi0tIApIYXJsYW4gU3Rlbm4gPHN0ZW5u QG53dGltZS5vcmc+Cmh0dHA6Ly9uZXR3b3JrdGltZWZvdW5kYXRpb24ub3JnIC0gYmUgYSBtZW1i ZXIhCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCm50cHdn IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApudHB3Z0BsaXN0cy5udHAub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly9saXN0cy5udHAub3JnL2xp c3RpbmZvL250cHdnCg== From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 14:28:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAB801315FF for ; 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Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:28:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.mlpsca01.us.to.gin.ntt.net ([129.250.38.22]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbCnt-000JF0-Ke for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:28:21 +0000 Received: by mail3.mlpsca01.us.to.gin.ntt.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dbCns-000336-GW (job@us.ntt.net) for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:28:12 +0000 Received: by mail-wr0-f172.google.com with SMTP id k71so105754450wrc.2 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:28:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112j32NX50BuU2r2oT1f0lI2ab0Y2GZf4f7kDYaeqjZ0BUq3SdoV nElIUjuno0wdL4EVNdZJU8KwVWi19duM X-Received: by 10.223.130.102 with SMTP id 93mr6632966wrb.253.1501277290945; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:28:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> In-Reply-To: <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> From: Job Snijders Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:28:00 +0000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Harlan Stenn , Job Snijders , "Salz, Rich" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 129.250.38.22 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: job@ntt.net X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6387476834258233735==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============6387476834258233735== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114b3c44a350bb0555675bc9" --001a114b3c44a350bb0555675bc9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 at 23:11, Harlan Stenn wrote: > On 7/28/17 5:39 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > This should not be informational, it should be standards track. Data > minimization is an important part of IETF goals these days. > > > > The fact that it can be done in a major client without code changes is > great. But should not affect the value of the document. > > Then let's clean up RFC5095, section 14, last paragraph. > > The data minimization must be OPTIONAL, and it must clearly be limited > to CLIENT (mode 3) packets. Why must it be optional? You offer no argument here. The reverse makes more sense: by default apply minimization, optionally do something else. Kind regards, Job > --001a114b3c44a350bb0555675bc9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 a= t 23:11, Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.= org> wrote:
On 7/28/17 5:39 = AM, Salz, Rich wrote:
> This should not be informational, it should be standards track.=C2=A0 = Data minimization is an important part of IETF goals these days.
>
> The fact that it can be done in a major client without code changes is= great.=C2=A0 But should not affect the value of the document.

Then let's clean up RFC5095, section 14, last paragraph.

The data minimization must be OPTIONAL, and it must clearly be limited
to CLIENT (mode 3) packets.


Why must it be optional? You offer n= o argument here.=C2=A0

T= he reverse makes more sense: by default apply minimization, optionally do s= omething else.=C2=A0

Kin= d regards,

Job
--001a114b3c44a350bb0555675bc9-- --===============6387476834258233735== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============6387476834258233735==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 14:48:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5077A131E9B for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:48:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tNt71WwdjP50 for ; 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Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:47:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9d8ff878-63d3-c3ab-5be6-131f49f0cf8e@nwtime.org> References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <9d8ff878-63d3-c3ab-5be6-131f49f0cf8e@nwtime.org> From: Aanchal Malhotra Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:47:05 +0200 Message-ID: To: Harlan Stenn X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 128.197.228.62 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: aanchal4@bu.edu X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: NTP Working Group Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8108896824833160220==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============8108896824833160220== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113e40387e5fc3055567a0ec" --001a113e40387e5fc3055567a0ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Harlan Stenn wrote: > > > On 7/28/17 3:35 AM, Aanchal Malhotra wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Harlan Stenn wrote: > > > >> Hi Job, > >> > >> On 7/28/17 2:06 AM, Job Snijders wrote: > >>> Dear Harlan, > >>> > >>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0000, Harlan Stenn wrote: > >>>> I believe the data minimization proposal is about to become an > >>>> informational proposal, as everything it wants to do can be done by > >>>> using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5905. > >>> > >>> The choice the working group will have to make, is whether the WG > merely > >>> wants to document that privacy enhancing tricks exist ("informational") > >>> or whether the data minimization techniques outlined should be > mandatory > >>> for each (s)ntp client ("standards track"). > >>> > >>> Since the current draft updates 5905 (which is a standards track > >>> document) the update itself should probably be of on the standards > level > >>> as well. > >> > >> The current draft *proposes* to update RFC5905. > >> > >> I was passing along Dave's comments, and my recollection from the WG > >> meeting was that the authors were ready to make the document > >> informational. I had some other comments to the proposal that I > >> submitted that haven't been published to the mailing list yet. > >> > > > > We never agreed on the status of the document to be "Informational". The > > only consensus we reached at the WG meeting was to get the document > > published. The intended status of the document has always been "Standards > > Track". This document updates RFC5905 by concretely specifying the > methods > > of data minimization for (S)NTP as opposed to a general statement in the > > section 14 of RFC5905. So I would prefer the document to be "Standards > > Track" to encourage as broad as possible deployment by making this > behavior > > part of the core NTP specification. > > Then I completely mis-heard and misunderstood you and Daniel. > > I'm fine having this as an OPTION for client queries. > > But it's already clearly permitted behavior for an SNTP client, so it's > not adding anything new. > > If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for all CLIENT (mode 3), what > you're talking about is no longer NTP, and you should propose an > alternative Standard for your purposes. > > If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for more than CLIENT (mode 3) > requests, what you are talking about is no longer NTP, and you should > propose an alternative Standard for your purposes. > >From Section 1 of the proposed draft "This memo updates RFC 5905 to redact unnecessary data from mode 3 packets. This is a fully backwards-compatible proposal. It calls for no changes on the server side, and clients which implement these updates will remain fully interoperable with existing servers." > There are plenty of use-cases where the existing behavior is useful and > desirable. > > It is wrong to prohibit these cases. > Well, it makes more sense to have this as REQUIRED behavior for mode 3 clients for NTP's general use-cases and OPTIONAL otherwise (for the edge use-cases.) > > -- > Harlan Stenn > http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! > --001a113e40387e5fc3055567a0ec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org>= ; wrote:


On 7/28/17 3:35 AM, Aanchal Malhotra wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Job,
>>
>> On 7/28/17 2:06 AM, Job Snijders wrote:
>>> Dear Harlan,
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0000, Harlan Stenn wrote:<= br> >>>> I believe the data minimization proposal is about to becom= e an
>>>> informational proposal, as everything it wants to do can b= e done by
>>>> using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5905.
>>>
>>> The choice the working group will have to make, is whether the= WG merely
>>> wants to document that privacy enhancing tricks exist ("i= nformational")
>>> or whether the data minimization techniques outlined should be= mandatory
>>> for each (s)ntp client ("standards track").
>>>
>>> Since the current draft updates 5905 (which is a standards tra= ck
>>> document) the update itself should probably be of on the stand= ards level
>>> as well.
>>
>> The current draft *proposes* to update RFC5905.
>>
>> I was passing along Dave's comments, and my recollection from = the WG
>> meeting was that the authors were ready to make the document
>> informational.=C2=A0 I had some other comments to the proposal tha= t I
>> submitted that haven't been published to the mailing list yet.=
>>
>
> We never agreed on the status of the document to be "Informationa= l". The
> only consensus we reached at the WG meeting was to get the document > published. The intended status of the document has always been "S= tandards
> Track". This document updates RFC5905 by concretely specifying th= e methods
> of data minimization for (S)NTP as opposed to a general statement in t= he
> section 14 of RFC5905. So I would prefer=C2=A0 the document to be &quo= t;Standards
> Track" to encourage as broad as possible deployment by making thi= s behavior
> part of the core NTP specification.

Then I completely mis-heard and misunderstood you and Daniel.
I'm fine having this as an OPTION for client queries.

But it's already clearly permitted behavior for an SNTP client, so it&#= 39;s
not adding anything new.

If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for all CLIENT (mode 3), what
you're talking about is no longer NTP, and you should propose an
alternative Standard for your purposes.

If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for more than CLIENT (mode 3)
requests, what you are talking about is no longer NTP, and you should
propose an alternative Standard for your purposes.
From Section 1 of the proposed draft 
"This memo updates RFC 5905 to redact unnecessary data from mode 3
   packets.  This is a fully backwards-compatible proposal.  It calls
   for no changes on the server side, and clients which implement these
   updates will remain fully interoperable with existing servers."

There are plenty of use-cases where the existing behavior is useful and
desirable.

It is wrong to prohibit these cases.

We= ll, it makes more sense to have this as REQUIRED behavior for mode 3 client= s for NTP's general use-cases and OPTIONAL otherwise (for the edge use-= cases.)

--
Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org&g= t;
http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member!

--001a113e40387e5fc3055567a0ec-- --===============8108896824833160220== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============8108896824833160220==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 15:19:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D011321CD for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:19:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id veuDjEo-TitD for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07758131CEB for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F32086DB90 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:19:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C38186DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:19:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from chessie.everett.org ([66.220.13.234]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbDbP-000Ksh-76 for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:19:31 +0000 Received: from hms-mbp11.pfcs.com (96-41-166-181.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com [96.41.166.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DA4E8B857; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:19:21 +0000 (UTC) To: Aanchal Malhotra References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <9d8ff878-63d3-c3ab-5be6-131f49f0cf8e@nwtime.org> From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:19:21 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: NTP Working Group Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" On 7/28/17 2:47 PM, Aanchal Malhotra wrote: > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Harlan Stenn wrote: > >> >> >> On 7/28/17 3:35 AM, Aanchal Malhotra wrote: >>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Harlan Stenn wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Job, >>>> >>>> On 7/28/17 2:06 AM, Job Snijders wrote: >>>>> Dear Harlan, >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0000, Harlan Stenn wrote: >>>>>> I believe the data minimization proposal is about to become an >>>>>> informational proposal, as everything it wants to do can be done by >>>>>> using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5905. >>>>> >>>>> The choice the working group will have to make, is whether the WG >> merely >>>>> wants to document that privacy enhancing tricks exist ("informational") >>>>> or whether the data minimization techniques outlined should be >> mandatory >>>>> for each (s)ntp client ("standards track"). >>>>> >>>>> Since the current draft updates 5905 (which is a standards track >>>>> document) the update itself should probably be of on the standards >> level >>>>> as well. >>>> >>>> The current draft *proposes* to update RFC5905. >>>> >>>> I was passing along Dave's comments, and my recollection from the WG >>>> meeting was that the authors were ready to make the document >>>> informational. I had some other comments to the proposal that I >>>> submitted that haven't been published to the mailing list yet. >>>> >>> >>> We never agreed on the status of the document to be "Informational". The >>> only consensus we reached at the WG meeting was to get the document >>> published. The intended status of the document has always been "Standards >>> Track". This document updates RFC5905 by concretely specifying the >> methods >>> of data minimization for (S)NTP as opposed to a general statement in the >>> section 14 of RFC5905. So I would prefer the document to be "Standards >>> Track" to encourage as broad as possible deployment by making this >> behavior >>> part of the core NTP specification. >> >> Then I completely mis-heard and misunderstood you and Daniel. >> >> I'm fine having this as an OPTION for client queries. >> >> But it's already clearly permitted behavior for an SNTP client, so it's >> not adding anything new. >> >> If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for all CLIENT (mode 3), what >> you're talking about is no longer NTP, and you should propose an >> alternative Standard for your purposes. >> >> If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for more than CLIENT (mode 3) >> requests, what you are talking about is no longer NTP, and you should >> propose an alternative Standard for your purposes. >> > > From Section 1 of the proposed draft > > "This memo updates RFC 5905 to > redact unnecessary data from mode 3 > packets. This is a fully backwards-compatible proposal. It calls > for no changes on the server side, and clients which implement these > updates will remain fully interoperable with existing servers." > > >> There are plenty of use-cases where the existing behavior is useful and >> desirable. >> >> It is wrong to prohibit these cases. >> > > Well, it makes more sense to have this as REQUIRED behavior for mode 3 > clients for NTP's general use-cases and OPTIONAL otherwise (for the edge > use-cases.) The OPTIONAL situation you describe is not an edge case. It would be the normal LAN case. It looks like I'll be resending my comments on the proposal, and I may end up proposing different language for the implementation of this proposal. -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 15:25:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A506132307 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:25:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xOU4O4qppq3n for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404841321DB for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D1E86DB8E for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:25:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D45386DABA for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:25:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from chessie.everett.org ([66.220.13.234]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbDhU-000L7z-8i for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:25:49 +0000 Received: from hms-mbp11.pfcs.com (96-41-166-181.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com [96.41.166.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 520E4B911; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:25:39 +0000 (UTC) To: Job Snijders , "Salz, Rich" References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: <5e6fa47e-b42b-54cc-5b24-47ed2769af0f@nwtime.org> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:25:38 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" On 7/28/17 2:28 PM, Job Snijders wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 at 23:11, Harlan Stenn wrote: > >> On 7/28/17 5:39 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: >>> This should not be informational, it should be standards track. Data >> minimization is an important part of IETF goals these days. >>> >>> The fact that it can be done in a major client without code changes is >> great. But should not affect the value of the document. >> >> Then let's clean up RFC5095, section 14, last paragraph. >> >> The data minimization must be OPTIONAL, and it must clearly be limited >> to CLIENT (mode 3) packets. > > > > Why must it be optional? You offer no argument here. Why must it be REQUIRED? No engineering evaluation of the costs or tradeoffs if data minimization is used has been offered. > The reverse makes more sense: by default apply minimization, optionally do > something else. What is your use-case where you believe your statement is true? -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 15:29:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879961321D6 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:29:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kvwmNrBXFBVS for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9452132313 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965E486DB8F for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:29:17 +0000 (UTC) To: Harlan Stenn , Job Snijders Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:29:01 +0000 References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> In-Reply-To: <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Post: From: "Salz, Rich via ntpwg" Precedence: list Cc: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Reply-To: "Salz, Rich" List-Help: Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4740722758872018810==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============4740722758872018810== Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2EC86DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:29:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com ([67.231.157.127]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbDko-000LJs-7X for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:29:14 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v6SMRQL4025652; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:29:05 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=B7v5wbVPnXyk7JJ4bxGHrTEykcyjsV0swN2EricgGzs=; b=gEYRw6DnzVZOl2vQuy6uNuYSZUlKp75LlXTONIxphY8ILnKH8vZNfFTiTU6KoPYgXSz3 bvbR+cG35lCZeyveq+LmFIpxvPDlVW0YJQPSouyQ7tJUU8j7rDNYDmtnzNwYUiHHTTNL V3xH/6BYPMh3HQ5BXpuOJMZ8Y8LAIk9CgPV0rp525UqkOrelzgkxX9uLhOBOmnSWYZrA kj6yryF24cOsztx2UAuVvg0D06hLodGd+v1uywXXdICm9MjZpJM/8pxlz8bnxeXt6KBf 20aD0Fwon/UorjPgiYtqC9fxE3EyfKL5OYBkh/KZy+/OPOBLf9QB0yTsg+TXxAruTbFc gg== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint3 ([96.6.114.86]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 2c085m9g1c-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:29:04 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v6SMQrX2005966; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 18:29:04 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2bv21vs152-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 28 Jul 2017 18:29:03 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:29:02 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 18:29:02 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Harlan Stenn , Job Snijders CC: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" Thread-Topic: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization Thread-Index: AQHTB1ts2EY+NOkPe0uf/vww/T2BiaJo9VmAgABArQCAAAfDgIAABQAA///rcCCAANJLgP//0oHg Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:29:01 +0000 Message-ID: <28c315aa38ef4f5ba82baef99c1d26d2@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> In-Reply-To: <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.44.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:,, definitions=2017-07-28_11:,, signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1706020000 definitions=main-1707280361 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:,, definitions=2017-07-28_11:,, signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1706020000 definitions=main-1707280361 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 67.231.157.127 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rsalz@akamai.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mail1.ntp.org X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL,KHOP_DYNAMIC,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=no version=3.3.2 Subject: RE: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) > The data minimization must be OPTIONAL, and it must clearly be limited to > CLIENT (mode 3) packets. Can you explain your reasoning? --===============4740722758872018810== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============4740722758872018810==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 15:33:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181EC12F287 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:33:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zKXjOzs8-M2v for ; 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Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:32:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <9d8ff878-63d3-c3ab-5be6-131f49f0cf8e@nwtime.org> From: Aanchal Malhotra Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:32:04 +0200 Message-ID: To: Harlan Stenn X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 128.197.228.15 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: aanchal4@bu.edu X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: NTP Working Group Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1584285705975443173==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============1584285705975443173== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1140a7fa5a4f6f055568416f" --001a1140a7fa5a4f6f055568416f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 12:19 AM, Harlan Stenn wrote: > > > On 7/28/17 2:47 PM, Aanchal Malhotra wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Harlan Stenn wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On 7/28/17 3:35 AM, Aanchal Malhotra wrote: > >>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Harlan Stenn > wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Job, > >>>> > >>>> On 7/28/17 2:06 AM, Job Snijders wrote: > >>>>> Dear Harlan, > >>>>> > >>>>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0000, Harlan Stenn wrote: > >>>>>> I believe the data minimization proposal is about to become an > >>>>>> informational proposal, as everything it wants to do can be done by > >>>>>> using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5905. > >>>>> > >>>>> The choice the working group will have to make, is whether the WG > >> merely > >>>>> wants to document that privacy enhancing tricks exist > ("informational") > >>>>> or whether the data minimization techniques outlined should be > >> mandatory > >>>>> for each (s)ntp client ("standards track"). > >>>>> > >>>>> Since the current draft updates 5905 (which is a standards track > >>>>> document) the update itself should probably be of on the standards > >> level > >>>>> as well. > >>>> > >>>> The current draft *proposes* to update RFC5905. > >>>> > >>>> I was passing along Dave's comments, and my recollection from the WG > >>>> meeting was that the authors were ready to make the document > >>>> informational. I had some other comments to the proposal that I > >>>> submitted that haven't been published to the mailing list yet. > >>>> > >>> > >>> We never agreed on the status of the document to be "Informational". > The > >>> only consensus we reached at the WG meeting was to get the document > >>> published. The intended status of the document has always been > "Standards > >>> Track". This document updates RFC5905 by concretely specifying the > >> methods > >>> of data minimization for (S)NTP as opposed to a general statement in > the > >>> section 14 of RFC5905. So I would prefer the document to be "Standards > >>> Track" to encourage as broad as possible deployment by making this > >> behavior > >>> part of the core NTP specification. > >> > >> Then I completely mis-heard and misunderstood you and Daniel. > >> > >> I'm fine having this as an OPTION for client queries. > >> > >> But it's already clearly permitted behavior for an SNTP client, so it's > >> not adding anything new. > >> > >> If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for all CLIENT (mode 3), what > >> you're talking about is no longer NTP, and you should propose an > >> alternative Standard for your purposes. > >> > >> If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for more than CLIENT (mode 3) > >> requests, what you are talking about is no longer NTP, and you should > >> propose an alternative Standard for your purposes. > >> > > > > From Section 1 of the proposed draft > > > > "This memo updates RFC 5905 to > > redact unnecessary data from mode 3 > > packets. This is a fully backwards-compatible proposal. It calls > > for no changes on the server side, and clients which implement these > > updates will remain fully interoperable with existing servers." > > > > > >> There are plenty of use-cases where the existing behavior is useful and > >> desirable. > >> > >> It is wrong to prohibit these cases. > >> > > > > Well, it makes more sense to have this as REQUIRED behavior for mode 3 > > clients for NTP's general use-cases and OPTIONAL otherwise (for the edge > > use-cases.) > > The OPTIONAL situation you describe is not an edge case. It would be > the normal LAN case. > It will be useful here to describe how these normal LAN case use the otherwise unused fields in the mode 3 client packet and how the methods in the proposed document for data minimization are disruptive to these cases. Also, is this the most general use-case of NTP? > > It looks like I'll be resending my comments on the proposal, and I may > end up proposing different language for the implementation of this > proposal. > > -- > Harlan Stenn > http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! > --001a1140a7fa5a4f6f055568416f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 12:19 AM, Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org>= ; wrote:


On 7/28/17 2:47 PM, Aanchal Malhotra wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 7/28/17 3:35 AM, Aanchal Malhotra wrote:
>>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org> wrote:<= br> >>>
>>>> Hi Job,
>>>>
>>>> On 7/28/17 2:06 AM, Job Snijders wrote:
>>>>> Dear Harlan,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0000, Harlan Stenn= wrote:
>>>>>> I believe the data minimization proposal is about = to become an
>>>>>> informational proposal, as everything it wants to = do can be done by
>>>>>> using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5= 905.
>>>>>
>>>>> The choice the working group will have to make, is whe= ther the WG
>> merely
>>>>> wants to document that privacy enhancing tricks exist = ("informational")
>>>>> or whether the data minimization techniques outlined s= hould be
>> mandatory
>>>>> for each (s)ntp client ("standards track").<= br> >>>>>
>>>>> Since the current draft updates 5905 (which is a stand= ards track
>>>>> document) the update itself should probably be of on t= he standards
>> level
>>>>> as well.
>>>>
>>>> The current draft *proposes* to update RFC5905.
>>>>
>>>> I was passing along Dave's comments, and my recollecti= on from the WG
>>>> meeting was that the authors were ready to make the docume= nt
>>>> informational.=C2=A0 I had some other comments to the prop= osal that I
>>>> submitted that haven't been published to the mailing l= ist yet.
>>>>
>>>
>>> We never agreed on the status of the document to be "Info= rmational". The
>>> only consensus we reached at the WG meeting was to get the doc= ument
>>> published. The intended status of the document has always been= "Standards
>>> Track". This document updates RFC5905 by concretely speci= fying the
>> methods
>>> of data minimization for (S)NTP as opposed to a general statem= ent in the
>>> section 14 of RFC5905. So I would prefer=C2=A0 the document to= be "Standards
>>> Track" to encourage as broad as possible deployment by ma= king this
>> behavior
>>> part of the core NTP specification.
>>
>> Then I completely mis-heard and misunderstood you and Daniel.
>>
>> I'm fine having this as an OPTION for client queries.
>>
>> But it's already clearly permitted behavior for an SNTP client= , so it's
>> not adding anything new.
>>
>> If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for all CLIENT (mode 3), wha= t
>> you're talking about is no longer NTP, and you should propose = an
>> alternative Standard for your purposes.
>>
>> If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for more than CLIENT (mode 3= )
>> requests, what you are talking about is no longer NTP, and you sho= uld
>> propose an alternative Standard for your purposes.
>>
>
> From Section 1 of the proposed draft
>
> "This memo updates RFC 5905 <https://too= ls.ietf.org/html/rfc5905> to
> redact unnecessary data from mode 3
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packets.=C2=A0 This is a fully backwards-compatible propo= sal.=C2=A0 It calls
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for no changes on the server side, and clients which impl= ement these
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 updates will remain fully interoperable with existing ser= vers."
>
>
>> There are plenty of use-cases where the existing behavior is usefu= l and
>> desirable.
>>
>> It is wrong to prohibit these cases.
>>
>
> Well, it makes more sense to have this as REQUIRED behavior for mode 3=
> clients for NTP's general use-cases and OPTIONAL otherwise (for th= e edge
> use-cases.)

The OPTIONAL situation you describe is not an edge case.=C2=A0 It wo= uld be
the normal LAN case.

It will be useful = here to describe how these normal LAN case use the otherwise unused fields = in the mode 3 client packet and how the methods in the proposed document fo= r data minimization are disruptive to these cases. Also, is this the most g= eneral use-case of NTP?

It looks like I'll be resending my comments on the proposal, and I may<= br> end up proposing different language for the implementation of this proposal= .

--
Harlan Stenn <sten= n@nwtime.org>
http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member!

--001a1140a7fa5a4f6f055568416f-- --===============1584285705975443173== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============1584285705975443173==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 15:39:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEFA2131D0A for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:39:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qfYFZr5RD3Ar for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AABC127ABE for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE72E86DB92 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:39:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486D786DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:39:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from chessie.everett.org ([66.220.13.234]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbDuK-000LfM-5y for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:39:05 +0000 Received: from hms-mbp11.pfcs.com (96-41-166-181.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com [96.41.166.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 639F0B857; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:38:55 +0000 (UTC) To: "Salz, Rich" , Job Snijders References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> <28c315aa38ef4f5ba82baef99c1d26d2@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: <7ffe9c3e-2b51-404a-bef1-3c6cbc1a7c06@nwtime.org> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:38:54 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <28c315aa38ef4f5ba82baef99c1d26d2@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" On 7/28/17 3:29 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> The data minimization must be OPTIONAL, and it must clearly be limited to >> CLIENT (mode 3) packets. > > Can you explain your reasoning? I could, and I could spend a lot of time researching the basis for that position. But I don't plan to do that now. >From what we've seen, the problem is the people who are pushing this agenda are more concerned about apparently small incremental security benefits, and have shown little awareness about the needs of improving the quality of network timekeeping, or how this proposal will negatively affect timekeeping quality. -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 15:45:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BFF2126B6D for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:45:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XKsTZZypCdqw for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DC18132310 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1865D86DB90 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:45:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6989786DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:45:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from chessie.everett.org ([66.220.13.234]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbE0e-000LvI-9W for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:45:36 +0000 Received: from hms-mbp11.pfcs.com (96-41-166-181.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com [96.41.166.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8128CB857; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:45:27 +0000 (UTC) To: Aanchal Malhotra References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <9d8ff878-63d3-c3ab-5be6-131f49f0cf8e@nwtime.org> From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: <88c62759-3ad0-8026-a6bb-bdbb43809284@nwtime.org> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:45:26 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: NTP Working Group Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" Here's what I wrote on the 17th: 1. First octet: 0x23 or 0xd3, or explicit language about LI=0 even if the local clock is unsynchronized. The Poll field SHOULD be set to either the actual polling interval as specified by RFC5095, or zero. 4.1: destination timestamp? Don't think so - that's only for peer associations, where the information is needed. This document seems to be an partially-correct re-implementation of SNTP. == The poll interval SHOULD be the correct poll interval. This will make a big difference for clients that may not handle a leap second properly. H -- On 7/28/17 3:32 PM, Aanchal Malhotra wrote: > On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 12:19 AM, Harlan Stenn wrote: > >> >> >> On 7/28/17 2:47 PM, Aanchal Malhotra wrote: >>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Harlan Stenn wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/28/17 3:35 AM, Aanchal Malhotra wrote: >>>>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Harlan Stenn >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Job, >>>>>> >>>>>> On 7/28/17 2:06 AM, Job Snijders wrote: >>>>>>> Dear Harlan, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0000, Harlan Stenn wrote: >>>>>>>> I believe the data minimization proposal is about to become an >>>>>>>> informational proposal, as everything it wants to do can be done by >>>>>>>> using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5905. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The choice the working group will have to make, is whether the WG >>>> merely >>>>>>> wants to document that privacy enhancing tricks exist >> ("informational") >>>>>>> or whether the data minimization techniques outlined should be >>>> mandatory >>>>>>> for each (s)ntp client ("standards track"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Since the current draft updates 5905 (which is a standards track >>>>>>> document) the update itself should probably be of on the standards >>>> level >>>>>>> as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> The current draft *proposes* to update RFC5905. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was passing along Dave's comments, and my recollection from the WG >>>>>> meeting was that the authors were ready to make the document >>>>>> informational. I had some other comments to the proposal that I >>>>>> submitted that haven't been published to the mailing list yet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We never agreed on the status of the document to be "Informational". >> The >>>>> only consensus we reached at the WG meeting was to get the document >>>>> published. The intended status of the document has always been >> "Standards >>>>> Track". This document updates RFC5905 by concretely specifying the >>>> methods >>>>> of data minimization for (S)NTP as opposed to a general statement in >> the >>>>> section 14 of RFC5905. So I would prefer the document to be "Standards >>>>> Track" to encourage as broad as possible deployment by making this >>>> behavior >>>>> part of the core NTP specification. >>>> >>>> Then I completely mis-heard and misunderstood you and Daniel. >>>> >>>> I'm fine having this as an OPTION for client queries. >>>> >>>> But it's already clearly permitted behavior for an SNTP client, so it's >>>> not adding anything new. >>>> >>>> If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for all CLIENT (mode 3), what >>>> you're talking about is no longer NTP, and you should propose an >>>> alternative Standard for your purposes. >>>> >>>> If you want this as REQUIRED behavior for more than CLIENT (mode 3) >>>> requests, what you are talking about is no longer NTP, and you should >>>> propose an alternative Standard for your purposes. >>>> >>> >>> From Section 1 of the proposed draft >>> >>> "This memo updates RFC 5905 to >>> redact unnecessary data from mode 3 >>> packets. This is a fully backwards-compatible proposal. It calls >>> for no changes on the server side, and clients which implement these >>> updates will remain fully interoperable with existing servers." >>> >>> >>>> There are plenty of use-cases where the existing behavior is useful and >>>> desirable. >>>> >>>> It is wrong to prohibit these cases. >>>> >>> >>> Well, it makes more sense to have this as REQUIRED behavior for mode 3 >>> clients for NTP's general use-cases and OPTIONAL otherwise (for the edge >>> use-cases.) >> >> The OPTIONAL situation you describe is not an edge case. It would be >> the normal LAN case. >> > > It will be useful here to describe how these normal LAN case use the > otherwise unused fields in the mode 3 client packet and how the methods in > the proposed document for data minimization are disruptive to these cases. > Also, is this the most general use-case of NTP? > >> >> It looks like I'll be resending my comments on the proposal, and I may >> end up proposing different language for the implementation of this >> proposal. >> >> -- >> Harlan Stenn >> http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! >> > -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 16:06:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E75131D1E for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:06:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4xjeumFHUZ6B for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33066131BFE for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8379286DB93 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:06:44 +0000 (UTC) To: Harlan Stenn , Job Snijders Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:06:27 +0000 References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> <5e6fa47e-b42b-54cc-5b24-47ed2769af0f@nwtime.org> In-Reply-To: <5e6fa47e-b42b-54cc-5b24-47ed2769af0f@nwtime.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Post: From: "Salz, Rich via ntpwg" Precedence: list Cc: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Reply-To: "Salz, Rich" List-Help: Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8821131065232536999==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============8821131065232536999== Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F208C86DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:06:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com ([67.231.149.131]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbEL2-000MeZ-Dz for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:06:40 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:06:29 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2bv21v7de6-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:06:29 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:06:28 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:06:28 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Harlan Stenn , Job Snijders CC: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" Thread-Topic: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization Thread-Index: AQHTB1ts2EY+NOkPe0uf/vww/T2BiaJo9VmAgABArQCAAAfDgIAABQAA///rcCCAANJLgIAABJkAgAAQGgD//78qAA== Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:06:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> <5e6fa47e-b42b-54cc-5b24-47ed2769af0f@nwtime.org> In-Reply-To: <5e6fa47e-b42b-54cc-5b24-47ed2769af0f@nwtime.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.44.114] Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============8821131065232536999==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 16:08:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C45CD131CFF for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RRReI-EdmaZt for ; 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Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:07:46 +0000 (UTC) To: "Salz, Rich" , Job Snijders References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> <5e6fa47e-b42b-54cc-5b24-47ed2769af0f@nwtime.org> From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:07:45 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" On 7/28/17 4:06 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> Why must it be REQUIRED? No engineering evaluation of the costs or >> tradeoffs if data minimization is used has been offered. > > The IETF is increasingly concerned about anything that can be used to identify, and track, users. I assume there is no disagreement here. > > The type of minimization proposed should be close to zero-cost. > > So, minimize unless there's a compelling reason not to. Agreed. Great. Do your homework. -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 16:22:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1CF4131DF9 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:22:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i4TJO-m3HjuQ for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23848127ABE for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C357986DB91 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:22:41 +0000 (UTC) To: Harlan Stenn , Job Snijders Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:22:27 +0000 References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> <28c315aa38ef4f5ba82baef99c1d26d2@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <7ffe9c3e-2b51-404a-bef1-3c6cbc1a7c06@nwtime.org> In-Reply-To: <7ffe9c3e-2b51-404a-bef1-3c6cbc1a7c06@nwtime.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Post: From: "Salz, Rich via ntpwg" Precedence: list Cc: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Reply-To: "Salz, Rich" List-Help: Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4062218331363512110==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============4062218331363512110== Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE27F86DAB8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:22:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com ([67.231.157.127]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbEaU-000NBL-GK for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:22:38 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v6SNLZOm026948; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:22:29 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=T2nnvtniHvAkhHMaACLmMA3keH8Idbuq65EFd47cvAE=; b=S6+J+pZVnlWZlbvQlHF+kwLY1YSEp5KdA6b+p2p5TgUr2y8YzldQ/JfnCzU9d7SPS5aG T6Zw6eEnKIGClwG6jQZ5glgf48eTkv85TsuOhgmG/mnaa3wGiGLrUgj55TygastMbKkB WlO/1yLChJV8e7elJJhkYVJM0DRnRUPMydcFUvLLD6zzzS/QEExwmNhVtd9uGQeHyLje s4R17W52Qi76srv2Q/DnTv6EqqGBRB2l0RO0Rjp/msB6no7PaA8c/dafygbh5KSv8SdA xGsE4RWrdGtRoayM6OsmJMqCV58Euf/SlDU/pTw2njiDCbQ+BA+ZW+fbXC25eBh9ChKH AQ== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint2 (a184-51-33-19.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [184.51.33.19] (may be forged)) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 2bytjfnbv0-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:22:29 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v6SNM4Bv008241; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:22:28 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2bv21uyb7f-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:22:28 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:22:27 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:22:27 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Harlan Stenn , Job Snijders CC: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" Thread-Topic: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization Thread-Index: AQHTB1ts2EY+NOkPe0uf/vww/T2BiaJo9VmAgABArQCAAAfDgIAABQAA///rcCCAANJLgP//0oHggABF5wD//8WT0A== Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:22:27 +0000 Message-ID: <473ce3bd5cb84ad195a3b48254cb4830@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> <28c315aa38ef4f5ba82baef99c1d26d2@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <7ffe9c3e-2b51-404a-bef1-3c6cbc1a7c06@nwtime.org> In-Reply-To: <7ffe9c3e-2b51-404a-bef1-3c6cbc1a7c06@nwtime.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.44.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:,, definitions=2017-07-28_11:,, signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1706020000 definitions=main-1707280376 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:,, definitions=2017-07-28_11:,, signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1706020000 definitions=main-1707280376 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 67.231.157.127 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rsalz@akamai.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mail1.ntp.org X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL,KHOP_DYNAMIC,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=no version=3.3.2 Subject: RE: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) > I could, and I could spend a lot of time researching the basis for that p= osition. > But I don't plan to do that now. That's unfortunate; do you have previous writings you can point me to? Or = search for on the mailing list archives? Without that, it seems you're aski= ng us to take your assertion as-is. Am I missing something? =20 > From what we've seen, the problem is the people who are pushing this > agenda are more concerned about apparently small incremental security > benefits The opion of various security folks is that minimization is not a small inc= remental thing. Preventing end-users from being tracked, on the other hand= , *is* important. > and have shown little awareness about the needs of improving the > quality of network timekeeping, or how this proposal will negatively affe= ct > timekeeping quality. The authors are very familiar with both NTP implementation and security con= cerns; and, of course, they don't need me to defend them. How will this proposal negatively affect timekeeping quality? --===============4062218331363512110== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============4062218331363512110==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 17:31:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E79E7132310 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 17:31:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F8t3POwJfymg for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 17:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8C91322C8 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 17:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D5186DB9A for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:31:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11EC986DABC for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:31:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from chessie.everett.org ([66.220.13.234]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbFfQ-000PXH-1Q for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:31:49 +0000 Received: from hms-mbp11.pfcs.com (96-41-166-181.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com [96.41.166.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B87E3B857; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:31:38 +0000 (UTC) To: "Salz, Rich" , Job Snijders References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> <28c315aa38ef4f5ba82baef99c1d26d2@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <7ffe9c3e-2b51-404a-bef1-3c6cbc1a7c06@nwtime.org> <473ce3bd5cb84ad195a3b48254cb4830@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: <35361bd8-6633-7ab3-cb4c-5a79e704ba85@nwtime.org> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 17:31:38 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <473ce3bd5cb84ad195a3b48254cb4830@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" Rich, You and I live in different worlds. H On 7/28/17 4:22 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> I could, and I could spend a lot of time researching the basis for that position. >> But I don't plan to do that now. > > That's unfortunate; do you have previous writings you can point me to? Or search for on the mailing list archives? Without that, it seems you're asking us to take your assertion as-is. Am I missing something? > >> From what we've seen, the problem is the people who are pushing this >> agenda are more concerned about apparently small incremental security >> benefits > > The opion of various security folks is that minimization is not a small incremental thing. Preventing end-users from being tracked, on the other hand, *is* important. > >> and have shown little awareness about the needs of improving the >> quality of network timekeeping, or how this proposal will negatively affect >> timekeeping quality. > > The authors are very familiar with both NTP implementation and security concerns; and, of course, they don't need me to defend them. > > How will this proposal negatively affect timekeeping quality? > > -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 19:15:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3F62131EF2 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:15:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jre5ovE4UMKb for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFF7D131ED5 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EFB586DB97 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 02:15:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C8386DABD for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 02:15:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from chessie.everett.org ([66.220.13.234]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbHHo-00034V-D2 for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 02:15:32 +0000 Received: from hms-mbp11.pfcs.com (96-41-166-181.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com [96.41.166.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 177FEB857; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 02:15:23 +0000 (UTC) To: Job Snijders References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: <321ccf75-f1e1-d017-99bd-2702de1008ca@nwtime.org> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:15:22 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" On 7/28/17 2:52 AM, Job Snijders wrote: > Dear all, > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 02:34:35AM -0700, Harlan Stenn wrote: >> On 7/28/17 2:06 AM, Job Snijders wrote: >>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0000, Harlan Stenn wrote: >>>> I believe the data minimization proposal is about to become an >>>> informational proposal, as everything it wants to do can be done by >>>> using the SNTP client-mode spec described in RFC-5905. >>> >>> The choice the working group will have to make, is whether the WG >>> merely wants to document that privacy enhancing tricks exist >>> ("informational") or whether the data minimization techniques >>> outlined should be mandatory for each (s)ntp client ("standards >>> track"). >>> >>> Since the current draft updates 5905 (which is a standards track >>> document) the update itself should probably be of on the standards >>> level as well. >> >> The current draft *proposes* to update RFC5905. > > Yes, I understand drafts are proposals. > >> I was passing along Dave's comments, and my recollection from the WG >> meeting was that the authors were ready to make the document >> informational. > > I've reviewed the video recording from the working group meeting and I > don't believe clear consensus was reached. The authors clearly indicated > a desire to get something published on this topic. My interpretation was > that they are willing to continue dialogue regarding the intended > status. > > Since this is a working group document, even if the authors think that > "Informational" is an appropiate status for this document I'd like to > that reflected through discussion on the mailing list. At this moment I > don't see a clear reason to downgrade the intended status, specifically > in context of https://www.iab.org/2014/11/14/iab-statement-on-internet-confidentiality/ > >> I had some other comments to the proposal that I submitted that >> haven't been published to the mailing list yet. >> >>> I consider it a great feature that on-the-wire the proposed >>> techniques is backwards compatible with the existing standards, >>> however in my opinion it doesn't necessarily follow that because of >>> 'backwards compatibility' the intended needs to be downgraded. >>> >>> I would appreciate if someone offers insight what the advantages are >>> of downgrading the intended status, or what the downsides are of >>> keeping the current intended status. >> >> The proposal simply describes one way to implement what is already >> present in RFC5905, section 14, the last paragraph, which states: >> >> An SNTP client implementing the on-wire protocol has a single server >> and no dependent clients. It can operate with any subset of the NTP >> on-wire protocol, the simplest approach using only the transmit >> timestamp of the server packet and ignoring all other fields. >> However, the additional complexity to implement the full on-wire >> protocol is minimal so that a full implementation is encouraged. > > The above text paints a broader picture of what is possible, and > subsequently what draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization can do is narrow down > those possibilities to a specific subset, decorated with normative terms > to encourage implementers to do things a specific way, based on > experience gathered in the years between publication of 5905 and now. > > In other words: the fact that draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization fits > within what is outlined in Section 14 of RFC 5905; by itself is not an > indicator whether the draft's intended status should be Standards or > Informational. > >> The data minimization proposal (ie, minimal data in an SNTP packet) is >> great for client mode. It is not something that should be used for >> other modes. > > Yes, the draft confines itself to mode 3, the last paragraph of the > Introduction section reads: > > """ > This memo updates RFC 5905 to redact unnecessary data from mode 3 > packets. This is a fully backwards-compatible proposal. It calls > for no changes on the server side, and clients which implement these > updates will remain fully interoperable with existing servers. > """ > > Do you feel additional clarification is needed? Draft 1 cleaned up a lot of the problems. Since little is written about section 3 and the Poll field, I'd want to think about that a bit more. In particular, we should say something about the client needing to pay attention to the poll value returned by the server. There may be implications here about the Precision field. How about describing the reasoning behind: While populating any of these fields with authentic data reveals at least some identifying information about the client, the Origin Timestamp and Receive Timestamp fields constitute a particularly severe information leak. Exactly *how* is the origin timestamp a *severe* information leak? Exactly when is the Receive timestamp nonzero in a client mode packet? -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 19:48:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55FE4131EDA for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:48:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.291 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.291 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Do8DznXbLrvt for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848DA126C23 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5BDB86DB96 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 02:48:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89F8E86DABD for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 02:48:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-qk0-f170.google.com ([209.85.220.170]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbHns-000491-Iq for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 02:48:40 +0000 Received: by mail-qk0-f170.google.com with SMTP id d136so131799884qkg.3 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:48:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:reply-to:subject:references:to:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aXp2nIEGnN1Uj2c+vkB6aZYi1G5Ag0VDOI5qd8iv28c=; b=E9VpGKtzvft63z9aQwKVuX8m/RCJ6bkAkntjcykdmJdpRC5mU26qXIO6sswO+n015S FE7ZVZD5smtj6Q84A2i5zxee4JPplSLimHHYZsJ12tNnmSi88UpoV34Tp/6nckcca+rc EMS8nyiVboOMsudKGO8G1/RWC7OttdUg6MyyQMVLaQKxYVj3Rf/42YWCYlDTXUwC2xWI +UaW1agcj/TakEHuI+9wVWbhxMzu2joPlaoVr8sUFAXYyA9DIFixfkGAdpHdraeFVH2r ySwjiWH/AuAZG9zmgH+ptpPoIIR+1FaZD9BeSH/a6tesOeFKsg9PGT+qSlFdsH87+jOH mgwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:reply-to:subject:references:to:from :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=aXp2nIEGnN1Uj2c+vkB6aZYi1G5Ag0VDOI5qd8iv28c=; b=ZbaO0p9XWn14r/enHbzi2fNnqg1sYSYoL7+8CkZYlpVbjx0Rkvb9gpjL5rJMHjok5r cySl2/byZ7KUdv7FamSVc2zaOPfvWuX95DZAeuVh456QaEj0SjwHmYDwQFpYeQM29P02 jJo41Wkm4+P1lV07T3txOq9lauYEvUb8DLS0LjZETRCZKoknHUvjtq1KKHDtB8Yoh0iH j2B/lQ8raIdhKgL53UnNhKEsJjvKyJIwDkdy/07NwDcNuqaVnsKOSx+h9aZLFfqlTxZ2 P7W6gCutN1NmGOzLjYdJxgs8qfc9Z6mNZl7mMTrUeAHzu97MurnYKyiHC+EKmIHHvytp 3d5g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111XkllbgF9zDrohxo+yCZxFs8pdo2b9xyURG8ymfxhqw8swCaoz peSI68vvsPd+LkqN X-Received: by 10.55.97.13 with SMTP id v13mr13373270qkb.107.1501296511711; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.138] (d-24-245-108-20.cpe.metrocast.net. [24.245.108.20]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 37sm5211172qto.87.2017.07.28.19.48.30 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:48:30 -0700 (PDT) References: <98D00486-1526-42E7-9226-3BC99D8934A8@isoc.org> To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org From: Karen ODonoghue Message-ID: <9d2eb8fd-696d-bdfd-4d8a-1e467e8044f5@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:48:36 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 209.85.220.170 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: kodonog@gmail.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] ntp working group mailing list outage X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: kodonog@pobox.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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[24.245.108.20]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id f32sm18389744qkf.4.2017.07.28.20.01.47 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Jul 2017 20:01:47 -0700 (PDT) To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org From: Karen ODonoghue Message-ID: <4e2a3a74-d5c5-1b5d-6320-cab0e7e59528@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:01:52 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 209.85.220.174 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: kodonog@gmail.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: [ntpwg] a quick word about productive mailing list discussions X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: kodonog@pobox.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" Folks, A few requests regarding our mailing list traffic... Please assume that all contributors are genuinely trying to contribute and participate in a productive manner. Compose your response accordingly. Please only post productive additions to a thread. Thanks, Karen _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Fri Jul 28 20:17:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C42131F0B for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 20:17:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (body has been altered)" header.d=libertysys.com.au Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g489Yj6G5LPC for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 20:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F39131D26 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 20:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DAC386DB5D for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 03:17:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DFD586DABD for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 03:17:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ppp178-79.static.internode.on.net ([150.101.178.79] helo=mail.libertysys.com.au) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbIFa-0005WU-I8 for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 03:17:18 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.libertysys.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B5A092470 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 13:17:06 +1000 (AEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail2.gear.dyndns.org Received: from mail.libertysys.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.gear.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NkZhdv_ozc0l for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 13:16:55 +1000 (AEST) Received: from [172.22.64.102] (eber-home.gear.dyndns.org [172.22.64.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.libertysys.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC7EB9207F for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 13:16:54 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=libertysys.com.au; s=2016; t=1501298214; bh=QbgmgX+8APePKJSP1qeY/hOVoMc8947I4jpoj2tq3GY=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=YlEao4O4Y9+4ilgH02iNH+Jrn7RcVQ9u2M4726WPyENUGs1NDju/BeAbJuNXCP9jQ Sc5tt1YvHy24dJAkPPSS8hHKo+lPYo8gNX2on1rV2OJ0LtnQPERmpS2qv8fTIwXVHp F4SxU/ERwKwcidhss/pacy3qfTVuv7l8FL2v+CGc= To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> From: Paul Gear Message-ID: Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 13:16:52 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-AU X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 150.101.178.79 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ntp@libertysys.com.au X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0224663050985495431==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0224663050985495431== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------19872D44B2E9EC2CB79E3042" Content-Language: en-AU This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------19872D44B2E9EC2CB79E3042 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 29/07/17 07:28, Job Snijders wrote: > > On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 at 23:11, Harlan Stenn > wrote: > > On 7/28/17 5:39 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > This should not be informational, it should be standards track.=20 > Data minimization is an important part of IETF goals these days. > > > > The fact that it can be done in a major client without code > changes is great. But should not affect the value of the document.= > > Then let's clean up RFC5095, section 14, last paragraph. > > The data minimization must be OPTIONAL, and it must clearly be limi= ted > to CLIENT (mode 3) packets. > > > > Why must it be optional? You offer no argument here.=20 > > The reverse makes more sense: by default apply minimization, > optionally do something else. Hi everyone, I'd like to offer a small data point from a non-expert. (Apologies for the length; I've got the flu at the moment - I hope the logic is clear even if my head is not.) At the risk of repeating myself [1], during the NTP pool Snapchat traffic surge last December (2016) [2], the time to discovery of the issue was increased due to the fact that the pool server operator community had no way of identifying the traffic's source. It was over 4 days days between my initial report of the traffic surge on the pool list [3] and the eventual discovery of a Snapchat update as the culprit after some collaboration on the NANOG list [4]. One could argue that because this event spanned the US weekend, it would have been resolved far more quickly had it occurred during the normal work week, but had Snapchat (or the NTP library it uses) [5] had some method of communicating something equivalent to a user agent string, we would have stumbled on the cause within minutes. (Of course, if they'd used a vendor pool, Ask Bj=C3=B8rn Hansen and the pool infrastructure operators would have been able detect it on the NTP pool DNS servers.) The way this issue was discovered was via sniffing the wire and correlating NTP & DNS from an individual client IP address. Any nation-state attacker or other MitM would have the ability to infer the source of the traffic regardless of the data in the NTP packet, whereas the pool operator community was blind to it. So in this particular case, I believe data minimisation would offer no practical privacy benefit (contra Daniel's reply [6]), whilst adding considerable cost in troubleshooting & remediation time to the pool operator community.=20 (Some servers dropped out due to their bandwidth being overwhelmed.) I still think this debate would be benefited by Harlan further engaging and expressing other positive points against minimisation (although I'm guessing it would just be a recapitulation of [7] - that NTP has very little value for fingerprinting purposes), but I would prefer to see clients given the option of including something akin to a user agent field by default. If I'm not mistaken, the most reliable method of preventing client fingerprinting via NTP would be to use IPv6 SLAAC privacy extensions (as far as I'm aware, there's no way to encrypt IPv4 DHCP traffic), encrypted DNS, and NTS (although MitMs could still sniff actual poll intervals). Can any experts confirm, deny, or nuance for me? Regards, Paul 1. http://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/ntpwg/2017-March/003179.html 2. https://community.ntppool.org/t/recent-ntp-pool-traffic-increase/18/1= 0 3. http://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/pool/2016-December/007996.html - 2016-12-15 00:04:47 UTC; as far as I can tell, this was the earliest English language reference to the issue. 4. https://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2016-December/089588.html - 2016-12-19 21:13:09 UTC. 5. https://github.com/jbenet/ios-ntp/blob/5cc3b6e437a6422dcee9dec9da5183= e283eff9f2/ios-ntp-lib/NetworkClock.m#L122 https://twitter.com/paulgear1/status/810967841226657792=20 6. http://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/ntpwg/2017-March/003188.html 7. http://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/ntpwg/2017-March/003202.html --------------19872D44B2E9EC2CB79E3042 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 29/07/17 07:28, Job Snijders wrote:=

On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 at 23:11, Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org> wrote:
On 7/28/17 5:39 AM, Salz, Ric= h wrote:
> This should not be informational, it should be standards track.=C2=A0 Data minimization is an important part= of IETF goals these days.
>
> The fact that it can be done in a major client without code changes is great.=C2=A0 But should not affect the value = of the document.

Then let's clean up RFC5095, section 14, last paragraph.

The data minimization must be OPTIONAL, and it must clearly be limited
to CLIENT (mode 3) packets.


Why must it be optional? You offer no argumen= t here.=C2=A0

The reverse makes more sense: by default appl= y minimization, optionally do something else.

Hi everyone,

I'd like to offer a small data point from a non-expert.=C2=A0 (Apolog= ies for the length; I've got the flu at the moment - I hope the logic is clear even if my head is not.)

At the risk of repeating myself [1], during the NTP pool Snapchat traffic surge last December (2016) [2], the time to discovery of the issue was increased due to the fact that the pool server operator community had no way of identifying the traffic's source.=C2=A0 It wa= s over 4 days days between my initial report of the traffic surge on the pool list [3] and the eventual discovery of a Snapchat update as the culprit after some collaboration on the NANOG list [4].

One could argue that because this event spanned the US weekend, it would have been resolved far more quickly had it occurred during the normal work week, but had Snapchat (or the NTP library it uses) [5] had some method of communicating something equivalent to a user agent string, we would have stumbled on the cause within minutes.=C2=A0 (Of course, if they'd used a vendor pool, Ask Bj=C3=B8rn Hansen and t= he pool infrastructure operators would have been able detect it on the NTP pool DNS servers.)

The way this issue was discovered was via sniffing the wire and correlating NTP & DNS from an individual client IP address.=C2=A0= Any nation-state attacker or other MitM would have the ability to infer the source of the traffic regardless of the data in the NTP packet, whereas the pool operator community was blind to it.=C2=A0 So in this particular case, I believe data minimisation would offer no practical privacy benefit (contra Daniel's reply [6]), whilst adding considerable cost in troubleshooting & remediation time to the pool operator community.=C2=A0 (Some servers dropped out due to their bandwidth being overwhelmed.)

I still think this debate would be benefited by Harlan further engaging and expressing other positive points against minimisation (although I'm guessing it would just be a recapitulation of [7] - that NTP has very little value for fingerprinting purposes), but I would prefer to see clients given the option of including something akin to a user agent field by default.

If I'm not mistaken, the most reliable method of preventing client fingerprinting via NTP would be to use IPv6 SLAAC privacy extensions (as far as I'm aware, there's no way to encrypt IPv4 DHCP traffic), encrypted DNS, and NTS (although MitMs could still sniff actual poll intervals).=C2=A0 Can any experts confirm, deny, or nuance for me?
Regards,
Paul
  1. http://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/n= tpwg/2017-March/003179.html
  2. https://community.ntp= pool.org/t/recent-ntp-pool-traffic-increase/18/10
  3. http://lists.ntp.org/pipermail= /pool/2016-December/007996.html - 2016-12-15 00:04:47 UTC; as far as I can tell, this was the earliest English language reference to the issue.
  4. https://mailman.nanog.or= g/pipermail/nanog/2016-December/089588.html - 2016-12-19 21:13:09 UTC.
  5. https://github.com/jbenet/ios-ntp/blob/5cc3b6e437a642= 2dcee9dec9da5183e283eff9f2/ios-ntp-lib/NetworkClock.m#L122
    https://twitter.com/paulgear1/status/8= 10967841226657792=C2=A0
  6. http://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/n= tpwg/2017-March/003188.html
  7. http://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/n= tpwg/2017-March/003202.html
--------------19872D44B2E9EC2CB79E3042-- --===============0224663050985495431== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============0224663050985495431==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sat Jul 29 00:58:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE1D12708C for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:58:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Q1-riwin7Rz for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70183127077 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F49286DB9C for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 07:58:19 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C0B586DAB4 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 07:58:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wm0-f47.google.com ([74.125.82.47]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbMdQ-000FRj-TR for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 07:58:14 +0000 Received: by mail-wm0-f47.google.com with SMTP id k20so3593181wmg.0 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:58:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version :content-disposition:user-agent; bh=JfwVZ0XCsEPYm0c3JW17wTTxnZO4MYCQKciOOnNsD8U=; b=MwcSRy0U3ereXI3fdmxQpIs0YjqipbbO54TdW4y7PT6+FQPeBi+W3mHn6a980WWkW6 yVMoTbS7OKqCASZ5XxyUspe7PhGUs5URVoY5OOrx6K2am5syDhieXNR+eL3j/4Pcm4t6 hDX3yOPlnpqCVqdC6m9dJbEvb1s1M8/3DLrVdq9gNNVE/uO3rY1XDsuAVCQCFdBRT/+S xUhIFHqYBavER0qqJa3oSE7dyQ9pT3joC7iuyKnJGWtI+gUsNEXJq3N/rGg5mcRYc4uZ oMvnrvKChpa5OmLQ/eCtcGbvLMXTdpV0wrA/ZBlvtcu24VorYcLOh6w9mtd7x7SzyWnw 5WlQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110k9dt0a/6u7sR6MAd7t3iwxYMhjQyTf8JMj/5PNf2J+5i/oGNJ RVm29YdBzOyA+wt8X1Tmuw== X-Received: by 10.80.149.249 with SMTP id x54mr5748972eda.175.1501315083278; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2001:67c:208c:10:858:8615:5ab0:6bf6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s10sm5565340edb.33.2017.07.29.00.58.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 09:58:00 +0200 From: Job Snijders To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Message-ID: <20170729075800.q7imf57ghqmcir5z@Vurt.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170714 (1.8.3) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 74.125.82.47 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: job@instituut.net X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: [ntpwg] how many NTP packets per client per hour in 99 percentile of cases? X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" Dear NTP experts, I'm looking for data on how many NTP packets per hour an NTP client receives during normal operations (e.g. in 99 percentile of cases). Let's assume the client is configured to work with 5 servers. Kind regards, Job _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sat Jul 29 01:13:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8EA0124BE8 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 01:13:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FiZXyLoK-JBF for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 01:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50AD0120227 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 01:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FEB886DB97 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 08:13:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823F186DAB4 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 08:13:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from chessie.everett.org ([66.220.13.234]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dbMrm-000G4R-Hm for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 08:13:03 +0000 Received: from hms-mbp11.pfcs.com (96-41-166-181.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com [96.41.166.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7C97AB857; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 08:12:53 +0000 (UTC) To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org References: <20170729075800.q7imf57ghqmcir5z@Vurt.local> From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: <61c71156-5108-e926-b875-5fea53ff3cf3@nwtime.org> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 01:12:53 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170729075800.q7imf57ghqmcir5z@Vurt.local> Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] how many NTP packets per client per hour in 99 percentile of cases? X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" On 7/29/17 12:58 AM, Job Snijders wrote: > Dear NTP experts, > > I'm looking for data on how many NTP packets per hour an NTP client > receives during normal operations (e.g. in 99 percentile of cases). > > Let's assume the client is configured to work with 5 servers. > > Kind regards, > > Job Assuming I'm qualified to answer, the client will start polling once every 64 seconds, so it will send/receive about 56 packets per server, so about 281 packets for the 5 servers for an hour. As the loop settles, the poll interval should increase to 1024 seconds, at which time you're looking at about 3.5 packets per hour per server, so about 17.5 packets per hour. -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sun Jul 30 06:34:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7FB3128D86 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 06:34:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XtpstEP2gb0N for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 23:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6141112F24E for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 23:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F1DE86DBA2 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 06:30:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4005386DAB4 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 06:30:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rrzmta1.uni-regensburg.de ([194.94.155.51]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dc4Du-000EuJ-Se for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 06:30:47 +0000 Received: from rrzmta1.uni-regensburg.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 198A65B2CB for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:30:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de (gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de [132.199.5.51]) by rrzmta1.uni-regensburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F705B1AD for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:30:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from uni-regensburg-smtp1-MTA by gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:30:36 +0200 Message-Id: <597ECE8A020000A100027487@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de> X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 14.2.2 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:30:34 +0200 From: "Ulrich Windl" To: References: <20170729075800.q7imf57ghqmcir5z@Vurt.local> <61c71156-5108-e926-b875-5fea53ff3cf3@nwtime.org> In-Reply-To: <61c71156-5108-e926-b875-5fea53ff3cf3@nwtime.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 194.94.155.51 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: Ulrich.Windl@rz.uni-regensburg.de X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: [ntpwg] Antw: Re: how many NTP packets per client per hour in 99 percentile of cases? X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" >>> Harlan Stenn schrieb am 29.07.2017 um 10:12 in Nachricht <61c71156-5108-e926-b875-5fea53ff3cf3@nwtime.org>: > > On 7/29/17 12:58 AM, Job Snijders wrote: >> Dear NTP experts, >> >> I'm looking for data on how many NTP packets per hour an NTP client >> receives during normal operations (e.g. in 99 percentile of cases). >> >> Let's assume the client is configured to work with 5 servers. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Job > > Assuming I'm qualified to answer, the client will start polling once > every 64 seconds, so it will send/receive about 56 packets per server, > so about 281 packets for the 5 servers for an hour. > > As the loop settles, the poll interval should increase to 1024 seconds, > at which time you're looking at about 3.5 packets per hour per server, > so about 17.5 packets per hour. I wonder: If the requester would enable peerstats and count the lines in some time interval, wouldn't the sum of all such lines correspond to the number of packet exchanges? Or maybe some packet filter (on UDP port 123 and the client address) would also do. Finally I wonder whether this type of questions has to be addresses to NTPWG. Regards, Ulrich > -- > Harlan Stenn > http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! > _______________________________________________ > ntpwg mailing list > ntpwg@lists.ntp.org > http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Mon Jul 31 01:28:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84C1129B3A for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 01:28:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PPno71bQARYe for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 01:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA92C128961 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 01:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 329A986DBA3 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:28:53 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F0186DAB4 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:28:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wm0-f41.google.com ([74.125.82.41]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dc649-000JTV-HM for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:28:49 +0000 Received: by mail-wm0-f41.google.com with SMTP id m85so68663946wma.0 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 01:28:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=1dgz+un3E8a5AoQkWgNSPNM+H9W+WBMSyniQUUBfXHI=; b=IwCuRclAFsVC+147NaMBG2Y0em0YKqT60fH9BaVszIFjFqjGq+4NjQ1vxndoZMaUQ4 jfxjlRWqrh4ZhTN7BlmnPVhkWepX8UmwpC+ZGPLIG43FfDGbLa6tnwuRLFfWWSjALREI p3J4yGsSdLcVJUCsoDfYfubdICiQlcO0xebPWS3R4IE7MZA9FFPqGzUR6A5XbziMkZMf IBksQ99TqjGcOjOWHVo24D3L0fgt2J79x9T2qilrMCdZVCBMmJsnzlY8mKyZ38LlOrYn gKajesvbPWGWbQg8k9/Xt9kfFARIOoBEgLsJJ41svWU5kfoJ5+cUDde2/5AAbuXT9Jse 3jVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112nU543HE8K5Upe6PvTu+nNSHaTmyKdlaHq9ksYa3eEsDmEpFT9 5PZ9nFNd3FLIprBv X-Received: by 10.80.241.195 with SMTP id y3mr13568616edl.66.1501489720315; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 01:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2001:67c:208c:10:f56e:5d0b:aa7b:87bc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x30sm9543285ede.25.2017.07.31.01.28.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 01:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 10:28:38 +0200 From: Job Snijders To: Ulrich Windl Message-ID: <20170731082838.wclv3mdgzvnhu7qw@Vurt.local> References: <20170729075800.q7imf57ghqmcir5z@Vurt.local> <61c71156-5108-e926-b875-5fea53ff3cf3@nwtime.org> <597ECE8A020000A100027487@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <597ECE8A020000A100027487@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de> X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170714 (1.8.3) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 74.125.82.41 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: job@instituut.net X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] Antw: Re: how many NTP packets per client per hour in 99 percentile of cases? X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 08:30:34AM +0200, Ulrich Windl wrote: > Finally I wonder whether this type of questions has to be addresses to NTPWG. According to https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/ntp/about/ "security considerations" are within this working group's charter. Fortunately I've received a number of productive answers both on-list and off-list for which I am grateful. Kind regards, Job _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Mon Jul 31 05:55:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C711321ED for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:55:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LQsuDz1izdTL for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09DA51321EA for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE8A86DAF3 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:55:43 +0000 (UTC) To: Paul Gear , "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:54:43 +0000 References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Post: From: "Salz, Rich via ntpwg" Precedence: list X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Reply-To: "Salz, Rich" List-Help: Subject: Re: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2261630282970778338==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============2261630282970778338== Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8692E86DAB4 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:55:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com ([67.231.149.131]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dcAEL-0007Ys-Ra for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:55:38 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:54:45 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2c0npvmh8h-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:54:45 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:54:44 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:54:44 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Paul Gear , "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" Thread-Topic: [ntpwg] suggestions for draft-ietf-ntp-data-minimization Thread-Index: AQHTB1ts2EY+NOkPe0uf/vww/T2BiaJo9VmAgABArQCAAAfDgIAABQAA///rcCCAANJLgIAABJkAgABheQCAA4Ja4A== Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:54:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20170718140423.za4q2nsgslmeakkf@Vurt.local> <20170728090648.ryunsdcqfqswstcv@Vurt.local> <20170728095228.edg56rdyngzmylfw@Vurt.local> <182782d461d0483fbfde2874d8f144d8@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <8b96138b-bb70-3a1c-a268-fe8fea08480c@nwtime.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.34.207] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============2261630282970778338==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Mon Jul 31 10:47:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8730132738 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 10:47:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NcKzxB_1BXZG for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 10:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C9F2132705 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 10:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73B1986DAF2 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:47:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D029686DAB4 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:47:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from chessie.everett.org ([66.220.13.234]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dcEmt-000H2m-LB for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:47:36 +0000 Received: from hms-mbp11.pfcs.com (96-41-166-181.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com [96.41.166.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 37039B8D6; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:47:26 +0000 (UTC) To: "ntpwg@lists.ntp.org" From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: <707deca2-9037-c9fc-69bc-71ee80cb4c97@nwtime.org> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 10:47:25 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: [ntpwg] NTS: DTLS and symmetric mode X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" A topic that came up on our NTS implementation call has to do with DTLS. I hope I communicate the following well enough. Dave Mills recalls seeing a message where it was stated that DTLS is great for client/server associations, but DTLS was not an efficient/effective/whatever way to establish a symmetric association. Thoughts or comments? -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Mon Jul 31 11:27:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 229D6132751 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:27:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.199, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:26:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.157.140 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.80.157.140 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:26:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <707deca2-9037-c9fc-69bc-71ee80cb4c97@nwtime.org> References: <707deca2-9037-c9fc-69bc-71ee80cb4c97@nwtime.org> From: Daniel Franke Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 14:26:57 -0400 Message-ID: To: Harlan Stenn X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 74.125.82.49 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: dfoxfranke@gmail.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] NTS: DTLS and symmetric mode X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: ntpwg Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8610791629017435705==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============8610791629017435705== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1952e41f56fc0555a12d91" --94eb2c1952e41f56fc0555a12d91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Jul 31, 2017 1:47 PM, "Harlan Stenn" wrote: Dave Mills recalls seeing a message where it was stated that DTLS is great for client/server associations, but DTLS was not an efficient/effective/whatever way to establish a symmetric association. I recall you asserting this in Prague but I haven't seen said message or anything else which would substantiate this claim. Do you have details? --94eb2c1952e41f56fc0555a12d91 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Jul 31, 2017 1:47 PM, "Harlan Stenn" <stenn@nwtime.org> wrote:
Dave Mills recalls seeing a message where it was stated that DTLS is
great for client/server associations, but DTLS was not an
efficient/effective/whatever way to establish a symmetric association.

I recall you asserting this in Prague b= ut I haven't seen said message or anything else which would substantiat= e this claim. Do you have details?

--94eb2c1952e41f56fc0555a12d91-- --===============8610791629017435705== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============8610791629017435705==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Mon Jul 31 11:31:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9A87132769 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:31:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9nOAFsVthCzw for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B79132751 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E4386DB9A for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:31:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB94986DAB4 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:31:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from chessie.everett.org ([66.220.13.234]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dcFT0-000IZS-K3 for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:31:07 +0000 Received: from hms-mbp11.pfcs.com (96-41-166-181.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com [96.41.166.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 98699B8A3; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:30:57 +0000 (UTC) To: Daniel Franke References: <707deca2-9037-c9fc-69bc-71ee80cb4c97@nwtime.org> From: Harlan Stenn Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:30:56 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.220.13.234 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: stenn@nwtime.org X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] NTS: DTLS and symmetric mode X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: ntpwg Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" On 7/31/17 11:26 AM, Daniel Franke wrote: > On Jul 31, 2017 1:47 PM, "Harlan Stenn" wrote: > >> Dave Mills recalls seeing a message where it was stated that DTLS is >> great for client/server associations, but DTLS was not an >> efficient/effective/whatever way to establish a symmetric association. > > > I recall you asserting this in Prague but I haven't seen said message or > anything else which would substantiate this claim. Do you have details? No, which is why I'm asking the question. Is DTLS well-suited for symmetric associations, which require mutual authentication? -- Harlan Stenn http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member! _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Mon Jul 31 11:36:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E9213276B for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:36:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yACTMImUCM5b for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FE7213277A for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39F986DB9D for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:36:50 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AD1586DAB4 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:36:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wm0-f44.google.com ([74.125.82.44]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dcFYV-000ImF-Tx for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:36:48 +0000 Received: by mail-wm0-f44.google.com with SMTP id m85so177788417wma.1 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:36:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=BLiXY6p0jWmgHnjo4z0/IHqcla7Th3a4lTcKPvHVGsE=; b=EEeDS9STlEvAtZ8BNrSR41wjmmZb8eXLn9FxsVRw4FfvqwZuKfIo0mywQayWlNWeQg WXNvwhefpQffb6pHcsu55GRxv+IqUO24/tcDymdajynd5PEpIYMUgP2+RALndyvQqJlw Lo27znzhP/p0hCaGT8uFrdqDp0GWWMFWOpSIRFe4PfN3vxO58HkAAb8dlYyrDflV4/+s tpoFmiHea0y3ISUhRcNVKyNu+fqScBi5pBufbWrYrlI6VYiJG79NJAglj3wv69YGVPsM AP06cEZ/XmIVNnU9wgiWSKNaLO8KCjoSINh5rG5yF8+HUu3mvXqB7Sms5D7kdkUr6A2a Q8lw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113FL+QEqNQLRAkLqHciqS46qDLpEH3FOvCDHas9BHNPm2eCsok6 uqUJsl55+B/h1rhK X-Received: by 10.80.184.83 with SMTP id k19mr15261848ede.163.1501526198589; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2001:67c:208c:10:30cd:19b4:c56b:67f7]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y55sm5949504edb.7.2017.07.31.11.36.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 20:36:36 +0200 From: Job Snijders To: Daniel Franke Message-ID: <20170731183636.dczoy4glknuw2dei@Vurt.local> References: <707deca2-9037-c9fc-69bc-71ee80cb4c97@nwtime.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170714 (1.8.3) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 74.125.82.44 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: job@instituut.net X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] NTS: DTLS and symmetric mode X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: ntpwg Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 02:26:57PM -0400, Daniel Franke wrote: > On Jul 31, 2017 1:47 PM, "Harlan Stenn" wrote: > > Dave Mills recalls seeing a message where it was stated that DTLS is > > great for client/server associations, but DTLS was not an > > efficient/effective/whatever way to establish a symmetric > > association. > > I recall you asserting this in Prague but I haven't seen said message > or > anything else which would substantiate this claim. Do you have > details? And how would it compare to QUIC? If QUIC has been discussed before, I'd appreciate pointers to the appropiate archive URLs. Kind regards, Job _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Mon Jul 31 11:51:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E679132772 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:51:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7chQscdJNqh0 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC3B5132770 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68CA786DBA8 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:51:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6662886DAB4 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:51:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from relay70.bu.edu ([128.197.228.170]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dcFn7-000JLJ-AM for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:51:53 +0000 X-Envelope-From: aanchal4@bu.edu Received: from mail-oi0-f70.google.com (mail-oi0-f70.google.com [209.85.218.70]) by relay70.bu.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id v6VIpINI024987 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 14:51:18 -0400 Received: by mail-oi0-f70.google.com with SMTP id h4so17076131oic.0 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:51:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=D02RVm0mQoca0e+WQIP/U1+frMeXt/Sz6Pgr0gvWJrE=; b=OKVtx2AzvfVVlb+EiSYPwUb/5mZ1yJalPwRqraqBRp/AnA1qmvvyVONYfbKmgxTFlh F00kpOwmt32w7/8JA5yB9vA9vlC2sf2lPNXe8FMF/T7Fab/EVjAxoseDrsNzIflp/1AM mxQ5behS+WoHVvnBQjlCMEfZWatIoBGo8ErpR8mdPw2ipPhQczBzTAjaPv13sp20Mt90 H0rg0+9M5jC8skWTPTmS3qApCpyreNalBTtAwxScnB5mQxhL7xaPcrHSiaQSEMQVAKcq LE/pEcok3/Oj6wIKIP8WI4JEZphYr/8LDACxIpZkHwPHnX1HucRlbHawaaFdqB3st/h/ M/2g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111IPr8wWGP5it7NRpz6X1ZycxaWTIRktYgn4HbdE6FxtatGxR1p vj0SemweIRyxUxCt+4TwRlnB9oCO4s867fHyOSBE1TsmP0nwhWoGVKstp+cefOkOUq9zJEDBBrP FeNpZyYnnAjg5n+9htzUI X-Received: by 10.202.198.199 with SMTP id w190mr13918924oif.93.1501527077712; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:51:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.202.198.199 with SMTP id w190mr13918914oif.93.1501527077494; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:51:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.74.152.129 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:50:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170731183636.dczoy4glknuw2dei@Vurt.local> References: <707deca2-9037-c9fc-69bc-71ee80cb4c97@nwtime.org> <20170731183636.dczoy4glknuw2dei@Vurt.local> From: Aanchal Malhotra Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 20:50:56 +0200 Message-ID: To: Job Snijders X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 128.197.228.170 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: aanchal4@bu.edu X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] NTS: DTLS and symmetric mode X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: ntpwg Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3050103114530770846==" Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" --===============3050103114530770846== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1134fb241335b70555a18426" --001a1134fb241335b70555a18426 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 8:36 PM, Job Snijders wrote: > On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 02:26:57PM -0400, Daniel Franke wrote: > > On Jul 31, 2017 1:47 PM, "Harlan Stenn" wrote: > > > Dave Mills recalls seeing a message where it was stated that DTLS is > > > great for client/server associations, but DTLS was not an > > > efficient/effective/whatever way to establish a symmetric > > > association. > > > > I recall you asserting this in Prague but I haven't seen said message > > or > anything else which would substantiate this claim. Do you have > > details? > > And how would it compare to QUIC? > > If QUIC has been discussed before, I'd appreciate pointers to the > appropiate archive URLs. > We never discussed NTP over QUIC, partly because it is still a draft and not an IETF standard. But also because it does not have any implementation yet except for the one by google which is specifically for HTTP. Standard crypto libraries of course do not support it yet. So there will be deployment issues for NTP. Having said that, I still feel it is worth having a discussion on if we can do NTP over QUIC, given that it is specifically designed to provide low latency for connection establishment and transport (which is exactly what we need.) But there may be other caveats? > > Kind regards, > > Job > _______________________________________________ > ntpwg mailing list > ntpwg@lists.ntp.org > http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg > --001a1134fb241335b70555a18426 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 8:36 PM, Job Snijders <job@ntt.net> wr= ote:
On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 02:26:57PM -0400, Daniel Franke wrote:
> On Jul 31, 2017 1:47 PM, "Harlan Stenn" <stenn@nwtime.org> wrote:
> > Dave Mills recalls seeing a message where it was stated that DTLS= is
> > great for client/server associations, but DTLS was not an
> > efficient/effective/whatever way to establish a symmetric
> > association.
>
> I recall you asserting this in Prague but I haven't seen said mess= age
> or > anything else which would substantiate this claim. Do you have=
> details?

And how would it compare to QUIC?

If QUIC has been discussed before, I'd appreciate pointers to the
appropiate archive URLs.

We never discu= ssed NTP over QUIC, partly because it is still a draft and not an IETF stan= dard. But also because it does not have any implementation yet except for t= he one by google which is specifically for HTTP. Standard crypto libraries = of course do not support it yet. So there will be deployment issues for NTP= .

Having said that, I still feel it is worth having a dis= cussion on if we can do NTP over QUIC, given that it is specifically design= ed to provide low latency for connection establishment and transport (which= is exactly what we need.) But there may be other caveats?

Kind regards,

Job
______________________________= _________________
ntpwg mailing list
ntpwg@lists.ntp.org
http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg

--001a1134fb241335b70555a18426-- --===============3050103114530770846== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg --===============3050103114530770846==-- From ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Mon Jul 31 11:59:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-ntp-archives-ahFae6za@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE40613278A for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:59:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.199, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (body has been altered)" header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kTwcjG5y9JDZ for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (psp3.ntp.org [185.140.48.241]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB4A013277F for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.ntp.org (unknown [127.0.0.235]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE0CE86DAFA for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:59:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Delivered-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org Received: from mail1.ntp.org (fortinet.ntp.org [10.224.90.254]) by lists.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9315486DAB4 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:59:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wm0-f41.google.com ([74.125.82.41]) by mail1.ntp.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1dcFue-000JbF-AU for ntpwg@lists.ntp.org; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:59:40 +0000 Received: by mail-wm0-f41.google.com with SMTP id m85so178251326wma.1 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:59:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Mv+d4zA0scr0/HVCYDP35Ark8K6NdYUOL7kewpj2VbU=; b=f5ThK2ePhn1bIGD1OtlI29h/XbgQ5g8PSkBKk+Xfj5MSBA2DBcJh6DKkVuEP8PtTuJ drC4s3aA8KOAJSxVdh7c4qn7NM+wRkK+qnUNLMDL+0WsHydpJ2dk0B6aw6yrOWJBwcSw p1FB3E3MoLiLpoJGiaTW+L6H7GIYR7wwnKG0Xj9zzovtPQ0M3hF4eCeOpy58ajkXHPpQ tCxT/OyiS27CteLPR9kehKQuVVIXyX+gcSc/k+xFbr4VMkuL2qJ7uekIHL17/+MNV1Br 1pASJQglPv96Lh3VOe10CLwJc/SekEunf6tcdsX3PfFDnZ4c2lIUeDFBN/TPHFojtL3R pnHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Mv+d4zA0scr0/HVCYDP35Ark8K6NdYUOL7kewpj2VbU=; b=gCjzL7iRIeSun0gA+i8erZRks8qWFHcD96XSeOyf9cPyTFVvci3diKdpNnfpHoVUvA qv56wAdtLMCyh9yAtFhz5hKUY3SEDb/6ymYWQbfa8Be6oRROS6Va1akWIe8ageS2Qg5M DV0u9zsxpJi/9e4CAUaxgfY6yWab/l5DxG5Tv2UrL9KJpi35EM1IWzMI3/b+1fNQdpxi yUSqQY/RpjLCo1YguHa7qCe6+rNLGfYS1tqUgp8Wr/mmoj3TYrzvIyXog1c05IXkq3ba CIWo4DsWnVDffbi7G3Mgq/QpNL88G5FkXcv+KswFU83FEdmcBmAaSot2r/9uxkGcPxiX 2n/g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113Xv8lp5Sw1ouABhbwfH7yDGHPPHLmEj0OV49ZpLDxUD/0rVdY9 M7AUkSuTXxGnhC2ONdAcH3j4kqBmQQ== X-Received: by 10.80.205.92 with SMTP id d28mr15393165edj.6.1501527571253; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:59:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.157.140 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:59:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <707deca2-9037-c9fc-69bc-71ee80cb4c97@nwtime.org> From: Daniel Franke Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 14:59:30 -0400 Message-ID: To: Harlan Stenn X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 74.125.82.41 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: dfoxfranke@gmail.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail1.ntp.org) Subject: Re: [ntpwg] NTS: DTLS and symmetric mode X-BeenThere: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.24 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Working Group for Network Time Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: ntpwg Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ntpwg-bounces+ntp-archives-ahfae6za=lists.ietf.org@lists.ntp.org Sender: "ntpwg" On 7/31/17, Harlan Stenn wrote: > Is DTLS well-suited for symmetric associations, which require mutual > authentication? Yes. DTLS supports mutual authentication through the use of client certificates or pre-shared keys. _______________________________________________ ntpwg mailing list ntpwg@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/ntpwg