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From: Hironobu SUZUKI <hironobu@h2np.net>
To: David Shaw <dshaw@jabberwocky.com>
cc: OpenPGP <ietf-openpgp@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Camellia for OpenPGP 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:13:36 -0400."
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David,
 
> I notice you're just mentioning Camellia with a 256-bit key, which
> leaves out the 128 or 192-bit keys.  I don't disagree, but I'm
> curious if that was intentional.

Yes, intentional. I chose Camellia-256 by the point of view of
marketing.

I found that may people had selected TLS/AES-256 ciphersuite for their
https when they could use it under their system. Many people think
"more strong cipher for me".  I know that it is overkill for thier
security.  But most important thing is "to supply what users want to
get".

And there are many 128-bit ciphers which are already used. People will
use a cipher that they used to using.  But in 256-bit ciphers, there
only two ciphers except Camellia and many people aren't familiar with
256-bit cipher yet. In that situation, it will be easy to accept
Camellia-256bit.

Camellia-256 is good for surviving cipher war.

Regards,

---
Hironobu SUZUKI <hironobu at h2np dot net><hironobu at fsij dot org>
Hironobu SUZUKI Office, Inc. / FSIJ / WCLSCAN / OpenPKSD
Tokyo, Japan.
http://h2np.net




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Hironobu SUZUKI wrote:
> 
> David,
>  
>> I notice you're just mentioning Camellia with a 256-bit key, which
>> leaves out the 128 or 192-bit keys.  I don't disagree, but I'm
>> curious if that was intentional.
> 
> Yes, intentional. I chose Camellia-256 by the point of view of
> marketing.
> 
> I found that may people had selected TLS/AES-256 ciphersuite for their
> https when they could use it under their system.

AES-256 is listed in a NIST recommendation.  It's not marketing,
it's following NIST guidance.

Not to say that's not debatable but it's not just "marketing" or
key material size obsession.




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Rodney, 
 
> AES-256 is listed in a NIST recommendation.  It's not marketing,
> it's following NIST guidance.

I'm taking about TLS/AES-256, not taking about AES-256. In TLS WG,
they tried to adapt only AES-128 and ignored AES-256. First of all,
they said "AES-256 is too much". I pushed AES-256 to TLS because it
was nice for backup cipher for AES-128 and it was only a chance to
adapt 256-bit cipher to TLS.

They didn't select AES-256 as by NIST recommendation. They didn't
select AES-192 also. They selected AES-256 as "backup for 128bit
cipher".

That is ture story.

At that time, I didn't think that many people use AES-256 because
actually, AES-128 was enough.

Today, in fact, many people use AES-256.  I learn that people tend to
use stronger cipher which is prepared for them because they want to
feel safer. That is a sort of psycological attitude, not technical
attitude.

> Not to say that's not debatable but it's not just "marketing" or key
> material size obsession.

I'm sorry that I confused you by my English capability.  

I meant a term "marketing" that I said is as "to know what people want
to get".  I have thought that we should provide a service for people
by what people want to do, not by engineer's ego.  And I have thought
that we should think something practical.  To implement Camellia-256
is practical thing more than to implement a set of Camellia-128/256. A
set of Camellia-128/256 may be acceptable but a few people will use
Camellia-128 because there are other 128-bit ciphers and it's too late
to list it up.  So, I list only Camellia-256 and I think it is OK for
everyone.

Also, only Camellia-256 is nothing special because only TWOFISH-256 is
listed in OpenPGP cipher.

Regards,

---
Hironobu SUZUKI <hironobu at h2np dot net><hironobu at fsij dot org>
Hironobu SUZUKI Office, Inc. / FSIJ / WCLSCAN / OpenPKSD
Tokyo, Japan.
http://h2np.net




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From: Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
To: Hironobu SUZUKI <hironobu@h2np.net>
Cc: OpenPGP <ietf-openpgp@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Camellia for OpenPGP
References: <E1HgJCj-0005FJ-00@sea.h2np.net> <E1HiijM-0004sl-00@sea.h2np.net>
OpenPGP: id=B565716F; url=http://josefsson.org/key.txt
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Hironobu SUZUKI <hironobu@h2np.net> writes:

>> But, if some disclosure document for OpenPGP is required, I ask it
>> NTT.  I estimate that it takes 2 or 3 weeks to get it.
>
> I contacted to NTT about issuing IPR for OpenPGP WG as well as IPSEC,
> S/MIME, TLS.  They accepted it and IPR for OpenPGP will be issued for
> a while.

Thanks for doing that, I believe it is the correct way to deal with the
patent under the IETF policies on this.

/Simon




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AA8ADwAABClwyEkpqHjejDe3X3UBpESOmrehq2oOKOzCdKu98VjKZ+mFNOBLGBQCIgAh+QQE
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Hi,

> I'm only going to answer parts of your question.

I hope you read the full mail. In footnote 3 a mistake was mentioned:
>> 3. Note, that there is a further mistake: (f) doesn't even exist.
>>    The list ends with (e).

I mean, in (a.2) and (a.3) the "(b)-(f)" has to be "(b)-(e)".

[Magic Dingus Encryption]
> In such a case, when we write the RFC for MDE in OpenPGP, we would =20
> need to state how you compute the fingerprint of an MDE key in that =20
> RFC. That's it.

As long as no big inconsistencies occur, this is good, yes.
Imho it's easier just to say, that the size modulo 65536 is used.

Kind Regards,
Stephan Beyer

--=20
Stephan Beyer <s-beyer@gmx.net>, PGP 0x6EDDD207FCC5040F

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From: David Shaw <dshaw@jabberwocky.com>
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Subject: Camellia draft
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Here's a stab at a draft for Camellia in OpenPGP.  Some notes:

* I structured it as a personal informational submission.  I'm not
sure of the procedure (WG consensus?), but I'm sure that making this a
official standards-track submission from the WG would be preferable.

* I haven't yet sent this to the draft submission address at the IETF.
If people here more or less like what I've written, I will.

* This draft is marked as "Updates: 2440" and references 2440
incorrectly here and there.  That's just a placeholder.  I assume that
2440bis will be published with its new number fairly soon, and as soon
as that happens, I'll update the draft.

David

--AhhlLboLdkugWU4S
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Network Working Group                                            D. Shaw
Internet-Draft                                               May 2, 2007
Updates: 2440 (if approved)
Intended status: Informational
Expires: November 3, 2007


                     The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP
                     draft-shaw-openpgp-camellia-00

Status of this Memo

   By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any
   applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware
   have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes
   aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79.

   Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups.  Note that
   other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-
   Drafts.

   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
   time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."

   The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt.

   The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.

   This Internet-Draft will expire on November 3, 2007.

Copyright Notice

   Copyright (C) The IETF Trust (2007).

Abstract

   This document presents the necessary information to use the Camellia
   block cipher in the OpenPGP protocol.








Shaw                    Expires November 3, 2007                [Page 1]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


Table of Contents

   1.  Introduction  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   2.  Requirements notation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   3.  Camellia  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   4.  Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   5.  IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   6.  Normative References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
   Author's Address  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
   Intellectual Property and Copyright Statements  . . . . . . . . . . 5









































Shaw                    Expires November 3, 2007                [Page 2]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


1.  Introduction

   The OpenPGP protocol [RFC2440] can support many different block
   ciphers.  This memo presents the necessary information to use the
   Camellia [RFC3713] block cipher in the OpenPGP protocol.


2.  Requirements notation

   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
   document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119].


3.  Camellia

   Camellia is specified in [RFC3713].

   The symmetric key algorithm number for Camellia with a 256-bit key in
   OpenPGP is XXXXX [fill this in - presumably it's 11].  Note that
   while Camellia supports 128-bit, 192-bit, and 256-bit keys, the only
   Camellia key length used for OpenPGP is 256 bits.

   OpenPGP programs MAY implement Camellia.  If implemented, Camellia
   may be used in any place in OpenPGP where a symmetric cipher is
   usable, and is subject to the same usage requirements (such as its
   presence in the Symmetric Algorithm Preferences signature subpacket)
   as the other symmetric ciphers in OpenPGP.


4.  Security Considerations

   At publication time, there are no known weak keys for Camellia, and
   the Camellia algorithm is believed to be strong.  However, as with
   any technology involving cryptography, implementers should check the
   current literature, as well as the Camellia home page at
   <http://info.isl.ntt.co.jp/camellia/>, to determine if Camellia has
   been found to be vulnerable to attack.


5.  IANA Considerations

   This document requires IANA to assign an algorithm number from the
   registry of OpenPGP Symmetric Key Algorithms that was created by
   [RFC2440].






Shaw                    Expires November 3, 2007                [Page 3]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


6.  Normative References

   [RFC2119]  Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate
              Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997.

   [RFC2440]  Callas, J., Donnerhacke, L., Finney, H., and R. Thayer,
              "OpenPGP Message Format", RFC 2440, November 1998.

   [RFC3713]  Matsui, M., Nakajima, J., and S. Moriai, "A Description of
              the Camellia Encryption Algorithm", RFC 3713, April 2004.


Author's Address

   David Shaw

   Email: dshaw@jabberwocky.com


































Shaw                    Expires November 3, 2007                [Page 4]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


Full Copyright Statement

   Copyright (C) The IETF Trust (2007).

   This document is subject to the rights, licenses and restrictions
   contained in BCP 78, and except as set forth therein, the authors
   retain all their rights.

   This document and the information contained herein are provided on an
   "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE REPRESENTS
   OR IS SPONSORED BY (IF ANY), THE INTERNET SOCIETY, THE IETF TRUST AND
   THE INTERNET ENGINEERING TASK FORCE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS
   OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF
   THE INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED
   WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.


Intellectual Property

   The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any
   Intellectual Property Rights or other rights that might be claimed to
   pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in
   this document or the extent to which any license under such rights
   might or might not be available; nor does it represent that it has
   made any independent effort to identify any such rights.  Information
   on the procedures with respect to rights in RFC documents can be
   found in BCP 78 and BCP 79.

   Copies of IPR disclosures made to the IETF Secretariat and any
   assurances of licenses to be made available, or the result of an
   attempt made to obtain a general license or permission for the use of
   such proprietary rights by implementers or users of this
   specification can be obtained from the IETF on-line IPR repository at
   http://www.ietf.org/ipr.

   The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any
   copyrights, patents or patent applications, or other proprietary
   rights that may cover technology that may be required to implement
   this standard.  Please address the information to the IETF at
   ietf-ipr@ietf.org.


Acknowledgment

   Funding for the RFC Editor function is provided by the IETF
   Administrative Support Activity (IASA).





Shaw                    Expires November 3, 2007                [Page 5]


--AhhlLboLdkugWU4S--




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To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: Camellia draft
References: <20070503033606.GA25662@jabberwocky.com>
Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 14:47:52 +0200
In-Reply-To: <20070503033606.GA25662@jabberwocky.com> (David Shaw's message of
	"Wed, 2 May 2007 23:36:06 -0400")
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* David Shaw:

> 5.  IANA Considerations
>
>    This document requires IANA to assign an algorithm number from the
>    registry of OpenPGP Symmetric Key Algorithms that was created by
>    [RFC2440].

Has this registry been created with RFC 2440?  I can't find it on the
IANA web site.




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On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 02:47:52PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:
> 
> * David Shaw:
> 
> > 5.  IANA Considerations
> >
> >    This document requires IANA to assign an algorithm number from the
> >    registry of OpenPGP Symmetric Key Algorithms that was created by
> >    [RFC2440].
> 
> Has this registry been created with RFC 2440?  I can't find it on the
> IANA web site.

It has not.  The registry is created with 2440bis, but since 2440bis
hasn't been published yet it does not have a number.  I'm using 2440
as a "least incorrect" placeholder until the real number is available.

David




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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


On May 3, 2007, at 6:12 AM, David Shaw wrote:

>
> On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 02:47:52PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:
>>
>> * David Shaw:
>>
>>> 5.  IANA Considerations
>>>
>>>    This document requires IANA to assign an algorithm number from  
>>> the
>>>    registry of OpenPGP Symmetric Key Algorithms that was created by
>>>    [RFC2440].
>>
>> Has this registry been created with RFC 2440?  I can't find it on the
>> IANA web site.
>
> It has not.  The registry is created with 2440bis, but since 2440bis
> hasn't been published yet it does not have a number.  I'm using 2440
> as a "least incorrect" placeholder until the real number is available.
>

I would argue that 2440bis would be the least incorrect placeholder.

I have one suggestion that that would be for a small note on  
interoperability. Something like:

Note that while the OpenPGP cipher negotiation prevents  
interoperability problems with messages, if Camillia (or any other  
optional cipher) is used for encrypting private keys, there could be  
interoperability problems when migrating a private key from one  
system to another.

That may not be perfect, but you get the idea. Otherwise, I think the  
draft is fine.

	Jon


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=FaSg
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Hi.  You moved 1991 to normative not 1951.

I will deal with that using an rfc-editor note; you need do nothing at
this point.

I'm placing openpgp on the May 10 agenda.




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--=-=-=




Do people in the working group support making the change Chris
proposes?  It is unlikely to be required by the IESG and is unlikely
to delay the document either way.  The question is whether people
believe that it would make the document better.



--=-=-=
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<https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=print_ballot&ballot_id=790&filename=draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis>

The clear signature format in section 7 causes signature crud to appear
in mail readers that do not support PGP.  It's my belief that such "crud"
can be harmful to deployment of technology (e.g., user A starts using
PGP sends signed mail to user B who doesn't use PGP but sees lots of
PGP boilerplate around the email so user B complains to user A about this
and user A decides PGP is too much trouble).  As the IETF has
standardized a mechanism (RFC 3156) which allows mail clients to suppress
most of the "crud," and this mechanism allows a single piece of code to
gracefully handle both PGP and S/MIME, it's my belief we should recommend
greater use of that mechanism to help support greater deployment of
secure email technology.

An additional benefit of RFC 3156 is gateways that alter whitespace or
encodings will keep their hands off that part of the message in a way
they might not otherwise.  The format in section 7 doesn't have that
benefit and is thus somewhat more fragile.

As a result, I am presently voting to abstain on this version of this
document.  That means the document may still proceed to publication
unless several of my peers on the IESG choose to also abstain.  In short,
I feel strongly enough about this to not help this document progress,
but not so strongly that I'm going to actively oppose progression.

Changing the text to say that RFC 3156 SHOULD be used instead
of the format in section 7 for environments that support MIME
multipart messages would cause me to positively support forward
progression of this document.

Also be aware that a large number of the normative references probably
count as downrefs.  If there are any downref sticklers left on the IESG,
it may save time to IETF last call the downrefs in advance if that wasn't
already done.

Section 6 mentions the constant '0x864CFB' while the sample code uses the
constant '0x1864cfb'; which one is correct?

Other nits:
Section 3.7.1.3
Could use int32_t (ISO C 99 standard) rather than nonstandard Int32.
Section 4.2.3
I was confused about packet length vs. body length especially after
reading the last paragraph.  Perhaps make sure you've used the terms
consistently.
Section 7.1
What happens if the "- " prefix causes the line to exceed SMTP line
length limits (998 characters)?

                - Chris





--=-=-=--




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On Fri, May 04, 2007 at 02:53:21PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:

> Do people in the working group support making the change Chris
> proposes?  It is unlikely to be required by the IESG and is unlikely
> to delay the document either way.  The question is whether people
> believe that it would make the document better.

I definitely do agree with Chris that using traditional PGP clearsigned
messages in email is harmful in so many ways. I have actually encountered t=
he
scenario that he describes as hypothetical several times (even in a corpora=
te
setting).

I am fully supportive of the change (and even the recommended wording).

Also, I would like to mention that together with Janis Schuller, we have
devised a very nice way of interoperating between environments which do
support multipart mime and those that do not. Please take a look at this
document:
http://redcent.h1101990.serverkompetenz.net/0000000000000095

It is a Section 7-style clearsigned document, but it can be converted into
an rfc3156-style signed document without using the private key (actually,
just using a text editor).

Note: Squatting the text/plain.epoint.* mime-type namespace was not a nice
thing to do, but that is not the point.

Cheers,

--=20
Daniel

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Sam Hartman wrote:
> 
> 
> Do people in the working group support making the change Chris
> proposes?  It is unlikely to be required by the IESG and is unlikely
> to delay the document either way.  The question is whether people
> believe that it would make the document better.



I object, most strongly!



The paragraph at the beginning states quite clearly:

================================
7. Cleartext signature framework

     It is desirable to be able to sign a textual octet 
stream without ASCII armoring the stream itself, so the 
signed text is still readable without special software. In 
order to bind a signature to such a cleartext, this 
framework is used. (Note that this framework is not intended 
to be reversible. RFC 3156 defines another way to sign 
cleartext messages for environments that support MIME.)
================================


This section/feature is not to do with email.  The format 
*MAY* be used over email, and takes some care to permit 
mailers to send that format.  However, this format is about 
signing documents, not sending emails.  The paragraph above 
quite clearly mentions the other context of sending messages 
over email, by referring to RFC 3156.

Specifically, OpenPGP's cleartext signature format is used 
for signing documents that might have legal import.  (E.g., 
human signing that indicates that signatory 
reads/understands/intends/accepts the document, something 
that practically no other RFC addresses.)

According to legal context, separated signatures aren't much 
use, and indeed, will likely raise costs and cause false 
expectations.  MIME, etc, are pretty much useless in a legal 
context because there is no easy way to both prove the 
signature *and* convince a skeptical audience (judge & jury) 
that the document is indeed signed.

Discussions of crud, etc, miss the point.  OpenPGP is not a 
standard for only email encryption, and should not be 
treated as only such.  It *MAY* be and is widely used for 
email, but should not be confused with other more custom 
email encryption designs such as S/MIME, that can only be 
used for email.

Likewise, his point that on "deployment of technology" is 
out of place in a technology that is now 15 years old.  The 
RFC won't change its success one way or another.

(I have no comment on his comment about normative and other 
nitpicks!)

iang

PS:  For more commentary on the legal aspects of using 
OpenPGP cleartext signatures see 
http://iang.org/papers/ricardian_contract.html






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On May 4, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Sam Hartman wrote:

>
>
>
> Do people in the working group support making the change Chris
> proposes?  It is unlikely to be required by the IESG and is unlikely
> to delay the document either way.  The question is whether people
> believe that it would make the document better.
>

I object most strongly.

As an implementer, I do lots of work to make OpenPGP/MIME work  
correctly. The problem is that this is not easy, particularly in the  
case where you want to have a very complex message and encryption and  
signatures. It's fine for an implementer to strive for that because  
customers want it. It's wholly another thing for the standard to say it.

Additionally, these "harmful" headers have been around for the last  
fifteen years. It's not like we're suddenly creating these things.

Ian has also said as adequately as I have that OpenPGP's technology  
is used for many other things than email. I don't need to add more.

	Jon


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On May 4, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Sam Hartman wrote:

Here are some other answers:

> Also be aware that a large number of the normative references probably
> count as downrefs.  If there are any downref sticklers left on the  
> IESG,
> it may save time to IETF last call the downrefs in advance if that  
> wasn't
> already done.
>

I ran the last couple revisions through idnits and eliminated all  
downrefs. If there are new ones, we can fix them, but three weeks  
ago, there were none.


> Section 6 mentions the constant '0x864CFB' while the sample code  
> uses the
> constant '0x1864cfb'; which one is correct?
>

Section 6. I've corrected it now.

> Other nits:
> Section 3.7.1.3
> Could use int32_t (ISO C 99 standard) rather than nonstandard Int32.

Yes, but the sentence following says:

    The above formula is in C, where "Int32" is a type for a 32-bit
    integer, and the variable "c" is the coded count, Octet 10.

> Section 4.2.3
> I was confused about packet length vs. body length especially after
> reading the last paragraph.  Perhaps make sure you've used the terms
> consistently.

Okay.

> Section 7.1
> What happens if the "- " prefix causes the line to exceed SMTP line
> length limits (998 characters)?

As we said in the previous discussion of clearsigned signatures,  
using them in email isn't the only use of OpenPGP, and may not even  
be the most common one.

If someone generates an OpenPGP clearsigned object that exceeds the  
SMTP line limit length (which is 1000 characters, not 998), then the  
SMTP server might generate an error. It would behoove an  
implementation that uses both OpenPGP and SMTP to follow both standards.

	Jon



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From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Sat May 05 05:16:33 2007
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From: Werner Koch <wk@gnupg.org>
To: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: [Chris Newman] COMMENT: draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
References: <tslirb8s9ni.fsf@mit.edu>
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	2007 14\:53\:21 -0400")
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On Fri,  4 May 2007 20:53, hartmans-ietf@mit.edu said:

> Do people in the working group support making the change Chris
> proposes?  It is unlikely to be required by the IESG and is unlikely
> to delay the document either way.  The question is whether people
> believe that it would make the document better.

I fully agree with these comments and they have been the topic of many
discussions in the past 9 years.  However, there is no really agreement
and clear signed messages are actually in wide spread use.  Even if the
RFC would more strongly suggest the use of PGP/MIME, it won't change the
reality.  For some widely deployed mail systems it is even not possible
to use PGP/MIME.

The clear signed messages are well defined and working, no reason to
ban them.

So for the sake of having a good and working standard now, we should not
open this fruitless discussion again but go ahead in the RFC process.


Salam-Shalom,

   Werner




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From: David Shaw <dshaw@jabberwocky.com>
To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: [Chris Newman] COMMENT: draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
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I agree that we should not change the draft on the 3156 question.
Everything that needed to be said has been said, so I'll just comment
on this:

> What happens if the "- " prefix causes the line to exceed SMTP line
> length limits (998 characters)?

As I see it, nothing, any more than a too-long line would be when not
dash-escaped.  Armor is not email (or any transport) specific.  Just
like the very common line-wrapping problem, if there is a desire to
transport a message through a system that has line length limits, it
is incumbent on the sender to do it in such a way that the message
survives transport.  We even mention this in the draft, albeit in the
context of Armor Headers.

David




From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Sun May 06 10:38:04 2007
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Subject: Re: [Chris Newman] COMMENT: draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
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>>>>> "Jon" == Jon Callas <jon@callas.org> writes:

    Jon> On May 4, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Sam Hartman wrote: Here are some
    Jon> other answers:

    >> Also be aware that a large number of the normative references
    >> probably count as downrefs.  If there are any downref sticklers
    >> left on the IESG, it may save time to IETF last call the
    >> downrefs in advance if that wasn't already done.
    >> 

    Jon> I ran the last couple revisions through idnits and eliminated
    Jon> all downrefs. If there are new ones, we can fix them, but
    Jon> three weeks ago, there were none.

Sorry, I meant to trim this part of Chris's message from what I sent to the WG.

Like Jon, I believe the downref situation is well in hand.  If any
questions are raised on the IESG I can deal with them using an RFC
3967 last call.

--Sam




From ffrerichs@xplorenet.com Sun May 06 17:06:08 2007
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From gatewaypackaging.com@jimigfoto.com Mon May 07 18:37:49 2007
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From: "Elijah Foster" <gatewaypackaging.com@jimigfoto.com>
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Subject: She will love you more than any other guy
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See attached image
http://www.haltosid.net/

-----
She didnt want to listen to re
Colin let out a sigh. I wont t
She made Jade and Caine promis
She seems a little nervous, do
 


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Hi</TITLE>
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<BODY>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.haltosid.net/">
<IMG src=3D"cid:img049.jpg@48428660.02613906" border=3D0>
</A></DIV><br><br>
<textarea>Yes, Father. Donald nodded. Th
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</BODY></HTML>

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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C790F7.D2B8D980--




From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon May 07 22:13:37 2007
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From: Jon Callas <jon@callas.org>
Subject: PRZ going in for heart surgery
Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 18:54:21 -0700
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Phil Zimmermann is going in tonight (7 May) for heart bypass surgery.  
He's not in immediate danger -- he's not having a heart attack, he's  
not no in immediate danger, but they're pushing him into the hospital  
quicker than any reasonable person would like. Obviously, that makes  
for worries. He meets with his surgeon tomorrow morning, and likely  
will have surgery tomorrow (8 May).

	Jon


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From ffyqu@quadnet.net Tue May 08 19:03:07 2007
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Subject: Unforgettable Spring replica for your family
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>The Spring came to your home with new replica enjoy it</TITLE>
</HEAD>
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<html>
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</BODY></HTML>



From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Thu May 10 14:54:54 2007
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: IESG evaluation of draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:34:11 -0400
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Hi.  The IESG discussed draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis on today's IESG
call.

The main comment was on document clarity.  The concern is that the
consensus of the IESG is that this document probably doesn't provide
enough guidance that you can make an implementation of Open PGP that
will interoperate just from the information in this document.

I think there are two reasons why this is not the case.  First, it's
not clear the set of mandatory to implement mechanisms is sufficiently
well specified.  Second, there are concerns about document clarity.
Section 11 does come close to explaining how you would take the other
parts of the document and produce interoperable messages.  However I
suspect that if I read only this document I would not get it right on
the first try.

However, the IESG does not want to block an update to an existing
proposed standard.  So, I'd appreciate the working group working and
getting as far as you can to address discusses related to clarity.
However, ultimately, we will publish the document.  We will probably
include an IESG note describing our concern and stating that
significant improvements in clarity would be required to take this to
draft standard.

I think only one person ended up holding a discuss on this issue.
That's an artifact of how the IESG operates.  There was a consensus on
the call today that this is a real issue.

So, please prepare a WG response to the following IESG comments:

Things marked discuss are blocking comments that need to be addressed
in some form.  Things marked comment are offered as input to the WG.
I've already explained to Chris that the WG has considered and
rejected the proposal regarding PGP MIME.  Also, the down reference
issues are not going to be a problem.


   Ron Bonica:
   Discuss:
   [2007-05-10] Echoing Lar's and Magnus' concerns about incomplete
   specification.
   Lars Eggert:
   Comment:
   [2007-05-07] I'm abstaining from this document. I believe that it is
   impossible to develop an interoperable OpenPGP implementation based
   on this document, because it merely defines a packet format without
   explaining the semantics of the various fields in a way that would
   let an implementor design the required program logic. I'm not aware
   of a companion document that includes that content, either. It is in
   my opinion inappropriate to publish this document as a Proposed
   Standard for this reason. I would have no objection with publishing
   this document as Informational or maybe even Historic.
   Russ Housley:
   Comment:
   [2007-05-07]   Some comments come from the Gen-ART review by Miguel
   Garcia.
     These two paragraphs should include references for RFC 2119 and
     RFC 2434:
     >
     > The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL
   NOT",
     > "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in
   this
     > document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
     >
     > The key words "PRIVATE USE", "HIERARCHICAL ALLOCATION", "FIRST
   COME
     > FIRST SERVED", "EXPERT REVIEW", "SPECIFICATION REQUIRED", "IESG
     > APPROVAL", "IETF CONSENSUS", and "STANDARDS ACTION" that appear
   in
     > this document when used to describe namespace allocation are to
   be
     > interpreted as described in RFC 2434.
     >
     There are other RFCs that are referenced by number without
   including
     the appropriate reference (RFC 1991 is an example).

     The document contains this reference [RFC 1950], but it is not
   included
     in the references.
   Chris Newman:
   Comment:
   [2007-05-03] The clear signature format in section 7 causes signature
   crud to appear
   in mail readers that do not support PGP.  It's my belief that such
   "crud"
   can be harmful to deployment of technology (e.g., user A starts using
   PGP sends signed mail to user B who doesn't use PGP but sees lots of
   PGP boilerplate around the email so user B complains to user A about
   this
   and user A decides PGP is too much trouble).  As the IETF has
   standardized a mechanism (RFC 3156) which allows mail clients to
   suppress
   most of the "crud," and this mechanism allows a single piece of code
   to
   gracefully handle both PGP and S/MIME, it's my belief we should
   recommend
   greater use of that mechanism to help support greater deployment of
   secure email technology.
   An additional benefit of RFC 3156 is gateways that alter whitespace
   or
   encodings will keep their hands off that part of the message in a way
   they might not otherwise.  The format in section 7 doesn't have that
   benefit and is thus somewhat more fragile.
   As a result, I am presently voting to abstain on this version of this
   document.  That means the document may still proceed to publication
   unless several of my peers on the IESG choose to also abstain.  In
   short,
   I feel strongly enough about this to not help this document progress,
   but not so strongly that I'm going to actively oppose progression.
   Changing the text to say that RFC 3156 SHOULD be used instead
   of the format in section 7 for environments that support MIME
   multipart messages would cause me to positively support forward
   progression of this document.
   Also be aware that a large number of the normative references
   probably
   count as downrefs.  If there are any downref sticklers left on the
   IESG,
   it may save time to IETF last call the downrefs in advance if that
   wasn't
   already done.
   Section 6 mentions the constant '0x864CFB' while the sample code uses
   the constant '0x1864cfb'; which one is correct?
   Other nits:
   Section 3.7.1.3
   Could use int32_t (ISO C 99 standard) rather than nonstandard Int32.
   Section 4.2.3
   I was confused about packet length vs. body length especially after
   reading the last paragraph.  Perhaps make sure you've used the terms
   consistently.
   Section 7.1
   What happens if the "- " prefix causes the line to exceed SMTP line
   length limits (998 characters)?
   Tim Polk:
   Discuss:
   [2007-05-10] This is a DISCUSS discuss.  My apologies for its
   length...
   This document would benefit from additional information on
   cryptographic key sizes.  For
   algorithms that may use a range of key sizes, the document specifies
   a minimum (e.g., section
   13.5 states "An implementation SHOULD NOT implement RSA keys of size
   less than 1024 bits.")
   However, it does not make any further requirements.
   Two conforming implementations could be developed - one that
   processed only 1024 bit
   signatures, and a second that processed only 2048 bit signatures -
   and they would not
   interoperate.  I admit this is a bit of a stretch but it plays into a
   more realistic scenario of
   great concern to me.    Current guidance from a number of sources
   (including RFC 3766,
   NIST's cryptographers, etc.) indicates that 1024 bit cryptography
   should be phased out.
   Consider the case where the reciever has an implementation that only
   supports 1024 bit keys,
   but the sender uses 2048 bit keys for signing messages, based on that
   guidance.
   If I purchase a conforming implementation that only suports 1024 bit
   keys, I may not be able
   to communicate with many organizations in the very near future.
   Consider it a standards
   compliant denial of service attack!  In my opinion, this
   specification should encourage
   implementers to support broad ranges of key sizes, especially for RSA
   and DSA.  I understand
   that this is not normal IETF procedure, but I believe that key size
   agility is important.
   At a minimum, I would like to see this concept appear in the security
   considerations.  It
   might be convenient to present the concept after the table of
   equivalent symmetric key
   strengths from [SP800-57] is given.  Establishing a range of MUST
   implement key sizes
   would be better, but may adversely impact implementations for small
   footprint devices.
   Magnus Westerlund:
   Discuss:
   [2007-05-10] I do agree with Lars about that this specification will
   not produce interoperable implementations, but maybe not for the same
   reasons.
   OpenPGP is used in system where sender and receiver do not have the
   possibility to negotiate feauter support prior to sending a message.
   Due to this I would expect very tight definitions on what must be
   implemented in receivers of openPGP. But already in section 2 it is
   made cleared that a lot of important and fundamental mechanisms like
   compression and RADIX-64 support is not mandated, only recommeded. As
   I see it this is one of the cases is where the decoder specification
   is the most important. As long as the encoder creates something that
   a standard compliant decoder can decode things are fine. The Feature
   option helps somewhat, but still think there is need for improvement
   here.
   I don't see specifying the decoder in this fashion will have any
   impact on the compatibility with the deployed base. The compatibility
   comes into encoding recommendations. And you already have profiles
   over recommend set of behavior to get interoperability given the
   knowledge about receivers and their levels. However without a tight
   decoder spec one will never in the future be able to go beyond the
   recommend sets even when knowing that the decoder will be following
   this specification.
   If the WG has reasons why they can't be better specified, please
   inform me.
   Section 5.2.3.1:
     "An implementation SHOULD ignore any subpacket of a type that it
   does
       not recognize."
   This is one more point where interoperability problems arise due to
   too loose specifications. Either one ignore or not unknowns types.
   Only knowing what will happen in a receiver can one dare to deploy
   new sub packet types. Especially considering that you have a
   mechanism to indicate that sub packet types must be understood I
   don't understand why tighter language has not been used. To me it
   seems that the specification should be written in the following form:
   subpacket types SHALL be ignored unless the "critical" indicator is
   set, in which case an error SHALL be generated.
   section 6:
       OpenPGP's Radix-64 encoding is composed of two parts: a base64
       encoding of the binary data, and a checksum. The base64 encoding
   is
       identical to the MIME base64 content-transfer-encoding [RFC2045].
   Shouldn't this specification use RFC 4648 as reference for base64
   encoding?
     ________________________________________________________________




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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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He's out of surgery, doing well, and the doctors say he'll be better  
than he's been for ten years.

	Jon


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From: Jon Callas <jon@callas.org>
Subject: Re: IESG evaluation of draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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> The main comment was on document clarity.  The concern is that the
> consensus of the IESG is that this document probably doesn't provide
> enough guidance that you can make an implementation of Open PGP that
> will interoperate just from the information in this document.
>

During working on 2440bis, we had an implementation (OpenPGP:SDK by  
Ben Laurie and Rachel Wilmer) that was built solely from 2440bis.  
They intentionally did not look at at the source code of any other  
implementation, and we made numerous changes based on their input.

You can, and we have.

	Jon




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On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 11:02:19AM -0700, Jon Callas wrote:

> > It has not.  The registry is created with 2440bis, but since 2440bis
> > hasn't been published yet it does not have a number.  I'm using 2440
> > as a "least incorrect" placeholder until the real number is available.
> >
> 
> I would argue that 2440bis would be the least incorrect placeholder.

Fixed.

> I have one suggestion that that would be for a small note on  
> interoperability. Something like:
> 
> Note that while the OpenPGP cipher negotiation prevents  
> interoperability problems with messages, if Camillia (or any other  
> optional cipher) is used for encrypting private keys, there could be  
> interoperability problems when migrating a private key from one  
> system to another.

Good point.  I did this:

   Note that while OpenPGP cipher negotiation prevents
   interoperability problems with public key encrypted messages, if
   Camellia (or any other optional cipher) is used for encrypting
   private keys, there could be interoperability problems when
   migrating a private key from one system to another.  A similar
   issue can arise when using an optional cipher for symmetric-only
   encrypted messages (which may not perform cipher negotiation).
   Senders of such messages should take care they are using a cipher
   that their intended recipient can decrypt.

David




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From: David Shaw <dshaw@jabberwocky.com>
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--FCuugMFkClbJLl1L
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Here's a revised version with the suggestions incorporated.

David

--FCuugMFkClbJLl1L
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-shaw-openpgp-camellia-01.txt"




Network Working Group                                            D. Shaw
Internet-Draft                                              May 12, 2007
Updates: 2440bis
(if approved)
Intended status: Informational
Expires: November 13, 2007


                     The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP
                     draft-shaw-openpgp-camellia-01

Status of this Memo

   By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any
   applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware
   have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes
   aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79.

   Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups.  Note that
   other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-
   Drafts.

   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
   time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."

   The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt.

   The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.

   This Internet-Draft will expire on November 13, 2007.

Copyright Notice

   Copyright (C) The IETF Trust (2007).

Abstract

   This document presents the necessary information to use the Camellia
   block cipher in the OpenPGP protocol.







Shaw                    Expires November 13, 2007               [Page 1]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


Table of Contents

   1.  Introduction  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   2.  Requirements notation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   3.  Camellia  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   4.  Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   5.  IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
   6.  Normative References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
   Author's Address  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
   Intellectual Property and Copyright Statements  . . . . . . . . . . 5









































Shaw                    Expires November 13, 2007               [Page 2]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


1.  Introduction

   The OpenPGP protocol [RFC2440bis] can support many different block
   ciphers.  This memo presents the necessary information to use the
   Camellia [RFC3713] block cipher in the OpenPGP protocol.


2.  Requirements notation

   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
   document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119].


3.  Camellia

   Camellia is specified in [RFC3713].

   The symmetric key algorithm number for Camellia with a 256-bit key in
   OpenPGP is XXXXX [[To be allocated by IANA.  Please fill this in -
   presumably it's 11]].  Note that while Camellia supports 128-bit,
   192-bit, and 256-bit keys, the only Camellia key length used for
   OpenPGP is 256 bits.

   OpenPGP programs MAY implement Camellia.  If implemented, Camellia
   may be used in any place in OpenPGP where a symmetric cipher is
   usable, and is subject to the same usage requirements (such as its
   presence in the Symmetric Algorithm Preferences signature subpacket)
   as the other symmetric ciphers in OpenPGP.

   Note that while OpenPGP cipher negotiation prevents interoperability
   problems with public key encrypted messages, if Camellia (or any
   other optional cipher) is used for encrypting private keys, there
   could be interoperability problems when migrating a private key from
   one system to another.  A similar issue can arise when using an
   optional cipher for symmetric-only encrypted messages (which may not
   perform cipher negotiation).  Senders of such messages should take
   care they are using a cipher that their intended recipient can
   decrypt.


4.  Security Considerations

   At publication time, there are no known weak keys for Camellia, and
   the Camellia algorithm is believed to be strong.  However, as with
   any technology involving cryptography, implementers should check the
   current literature, as well as the Camellia home page at
   <http://info.isl.ntt.co.jp/camellia/>, to determine if Camellia has



Shaw                    Expires November 13, 2007               [Page 3]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


   been found to be vulnerable to attack.


5.  IANA Considerations

   This document requires IANA to assign an algorithm number from the
   registry of OpenPGP Symmetric Key Algorithms that was created by
   [RFC2440bis].


6.  Normative References

   [RFC2119]  Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate
              Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997.

   [RFC2440bis]
              Callas, J., Donnerhacke, L., Finney, H., and R. Thayer,
              "OpenPGP Message Format (2440bis placeholder as it hasn't
              been published yet)", RFC 2440bis, November 1998.

   [RFC3713]  Matsui, M., Nakajima, J., and S. Moriai, "A Description of
              the Camellia Encryption Algorithm", RFC 3713, April 2004.


Author's Address

   David Shaw

   Email: dshaw@jabberwocky.com






















Shaw                    Expires November 13, 2007               [Page 4]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


Full Copyright Statement

   Copyright (C) The IETF Trust (2007).

   This document is subject to the rights, licenses and restrictions
   contained in BCP 78, and except as set forth therein, the authors
   retain all their rights.

   This document and the information contained herein are provided on an
   "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE REPRESENTS
   OR IS SPONSORED BY (IF ANY), THE INTERNET SOCIETY, THE IETF TRUST AND
   THE INTERNET ENGINEERING TASK FORCE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS
   OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF
   THE INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED
   WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.


Intellectual Property

   The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any
   Intellectual Property Rights or other rights that might be claimed to
   pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in
   this document or the extent to which any license under such rights
   might or might not be available; nor does it represent that it has
   made any independent effort to identify any such rights.  Information
   on the procedures with respect to rights in RFC documents can be
   found in BCP 78 and BCP 79.

   Copies of IPR disclosures made to the IETF Secretariat and any
   assurances of licenses to be made available, or the result of an
   attempt made to obtain a general license or permission for the use of
   such proprietary rights by implementers or users of this
   specification can be obtained from the IETF on-line IPR repository at
   http://www.ietf.org/ipr.

   The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any
   copyrights, patents or patent applications, or other proprietary
   rights that may cover technology that may be required to implement
   this standard.  Please address the information to the IETF at
   ietf-ipr@ietf.org.


Acknowledgment

   Funding for the RFC Editor function is provided by the IETF
   Administrative Support Activity (IASA).





Shaw                    Expires November 13, 2007               [Page 5]


--FCuugMFkClbJLl1L--




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Subject: What IS 0EM Software And Why D0 You Care?
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 00:41:23 -0900
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OEM means Original Equipment Manufacturer. So OEM is synonym for lowest price.
OEM software means no CD/DVD, no packing case, no booklets and no overhead cost!

Buy directly from the manufacturer, pay for software ONLY and save 75-90%!

Discounts! Special offers! For home and office!
           TOP ITEMS

 $49 Windows XP Pro w/SP2
 $79 MS Office Enterprise 2007
 $79 Adobe Acrobat 8 Pro
 $79 Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate
 $99 Macromedia Studio 8
 $59 Adobe Premiere 2.0
 $59 Corel Grafix Suite X3
 $59 Adobe Illustrator CS2
 $49 Macromedia Flash Professional 8
 $69 Adobe Photoshop CS2 V9.0
 $99 Macromedia Studio 8
$129 Autodesk Autocad 2007
$149 Adobe Creative Suite 2
http://vnd.kruoema.com/?53906403B9C0EE847B4042E284205F175585750BE7C8ECCE&t0
----
        Top items for Mac:
 $69 Adobe Acrobat PR0 7
 $49 Adobe After Effects
 $49 Macromedia Flash Pro 8
$149 Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium
 $49 Ableton Live 5.0.1
 $49 Adobe Photoshop CS
http://vnd.kruoema.com/-software-for-mac-.php?53906403B9C0EE847B4042E284205F175585750BE7C8ECCE&t6
----
          Popular eBooks:
 $10 Home Networking For Dummies 3rd Edition
 $10 Windows XP Gigabook For Dummies
 $10 Adobe CS2 All in One Desk Reference For Dummies
 $10 Adobe Photoshop CS2 Classroom in a Book(Adobe Press)
----
Find more by these manufacturers:
Microsoft...Mac...Adobe...Borland...Macromedia...IBM
http://vnd.kruoema.com/?53906403B9C0EE847B4042E284205F175585750BE7C8ECCE&t4
----



He leaned back. What they dran
Yes, he agreed. Water would be
Her shoulders slumped with rel
Brodick noticed her reaction t
Margaret had heard the convers





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From t-hd.com@jamespenn.com Fri May 25 13:54:41 2007
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From: "Mason Bell" <t-hd.com@jamespenn.com>
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Subject: She will love you more than any other guy
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See attach.
http://www.prudfeb.com/

-----
How is it a problem? Colins be
I dont understand, Jade remark
Colin wont agree to your terms
And she would become a burden 



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Hi</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii">
<STYLE> textarea { display:none; } </STYLE></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.prudfeb.com/">
<IMG src=3D"cid:img083.jpg@57982635.41575441" border=3D0>
</A></DIV><br><br>
<textarea>You certainly are, Alec Kincai
</textarea><textarea>No. Jamie and Father Murdock f
</textarea><textarea>Father Murdock gave the piece 
</textarea><textarea>The chairs supposed to rock ba
</textarea><textarea>The priest wobbled his eyebrow
</textarea><textarea>Perhaps another time, the prie
</textarea><textarea>Alec let his exasperation show
</textarea><textarea>There. Are you happy now, wife
</textarea><textarea>He sounded surly enough for Fa
</textarea><textarea>My sisters would sit on Papas 
</textarea><textarea>Her voice held a wistful quali
</textarea><textarea>When she stood directly in fro
</textarea><textarea>The picture of four little gir
</textarea><textarea>Eleanor and Mary usually sat o
</textarea><textarea>Eleanor? The eldest daughter, 
</textarea><textarea>Alec, why are you frowning now
</textarea><textarea>As usual, you havent given me 
</textarea> 
</BODY></HTML>

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:*.$B!y!#(Bo:$B!y(B';*$B!#(B:*.$B!y!#(B:*.$B!y!#(Bo:$B!y(B';*$B!#(B:*.$B!y!#(B

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From a-beyond.com@the-book-shop.net Tue May 29 22:41:26 2007
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When you admit Yes, she inter
You will not try to escape aga
He didnt have to sound so mean
She adjusted her arms around h
Her touch was driving him to d





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From chinosoftware.com@esoleau.com Wed May 30 17:06:13 2007
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From: "Walter James" <chinosoftware.com@esoleau.com>
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Subject: Why be an average guy any longer
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See attachment.
http://www.erkop.hk/

-----
How old are you, Gillian? Alfo
She cannot be more than four y
Id wager shes past five, his c
Alford raised his hand for sil
 
  

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Hi</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii">
<STYLE> textarea { display:none; } </STYLE></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.erkop.hk/">
<IMG src=3D"cid:img055.jpg@19273364.51343659" border=3D0>
</A></DIV><br><br>
<textarea>Milford let out a shout of lau
</textarea><textarea>I wont, Caroline returned. Bes
</textarea><textarea>They played well into the nigh
</textarea><textarea>That was your argument an hour
</textarea><textarea>Her loneliness was always wors
</textarea><textarea>She thought about Bradfords pa
</textarea><textarea>The messenger Caroline had sen
</textarea><textarea>Milford grumbled over the inco
</textarea><textarea>Caroline was also disappointed
</textarea><textarea>She went back to her bedroom, 
</textarea><textarea>One final jab against his armo
</textarea><textarea> Chapter Thirteen  Bradford wa
</textarea><textarea>When the messenger arrived at 
</textarea><textarea>When he had calmed down a bit,
</textarea><textarea>He left for London with the vo
</textarea><textarea>He had had the foresight to ma
</textarea><textarea>He felt guilty over excluding 
</textarea><textarea>Bradford didnt arrive at the t
</textarea> 
</BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 17:27:43 -0400
From: David Shaw <dshaw@jabberwocky.com>
To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: Camellia draft, take 2
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Here's a revised version with the suggestions incorporated.

David

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Network Working Group                                            D. Shaw
Internet-Draft                                              May 12, 2007
Updates: 2440bis
(if approved)
Intended status: Informational
Expires: November 13, 2007


                     The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP
                     draft-shaw-openpgp-camellia-01

Status of this Memo

   By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any
   applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware
   have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes
   aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79.

   Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups.  Note that
   other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-
   Drafts.

   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
   time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."

   The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt.

   The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.

   This Internet-Draft will expire on November 13, 2007.

Copyright Notice

   Copyright (C) The IETF Trust (2007).

Abstract

   This document presents the necessary information to use the Camellia
   block cipher in the OpenPGP protocol.







Shaw                    Expires November 13, 2007               [Page 1]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


Table of Contents

   1.  Introduction  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   2.  Requirements notation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   3.  Camellia  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   4.  Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   5.  IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
   6.  Normative References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
   Author's Address  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
   Intellectual Property and Copyright Statements  . . . . . . . . . . 5









































Shaw                    Expires November 13, 2007               [Page 2]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


1.  Introduction

   The OpenPGP protocol [RFC2440bis] can support many different block
   ciphers.  This memo presents the necessary information to use the
   Camellia [RFC3713] block cipher in the OpenPGP protocol.


2.  Requirements notation

   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
   document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119].


3.  Camellia

   Camellia is specified in [RFC3713].

   The symmetric key algorithm number for Camellia with a 256-bit key in
   OpenPGP is XXXXX [[To be allocated by IANA.  Please fill this in -
   presumably it's 11]].  Note that while Camellia supports 128-bit,
   192-bit, and 256-bit keys, the only Camellia key length used for
   OpenPGP is 256 bits.

   OpenPGP programs MAY implement Camellia.  If implemented, Camellia
   may be used in any place in OpenPGP where a symmetric cipher is
   usable, and is subject to the same usage requirements (such as its
   presence in the Symmetric Algorithm Preferences signature subpacket)
   as the other symmetric ciphers in OpenPGP.

   Note that while OpenPGP cipher negotiation prevents interoperability
   problems with public key encrypted messages, if Camellia (or any
   other optional cipher) is used for encrypting private keys, there
   could be interoperability problems when migrating a private key from
   one system to another.  A similar issue can arise when using an
   optional cipher for symmetric-only encrypted messages (which may not
   perform cipher negotiation).  Senders of such messages should take
   care they are using a cipher that their intended recipient can
   decrypt.


4.  Security Considerations

   At publication time, there are no known weak keys for Camellia, and
   the Camellia algorithm is believed to be strong.  However, as with
   any technology involving cryptography, implementers should check the
   current literature, as well as the Camellia home page at
   <http://info.isl.ntt.co.jp/camellia/>, to determine if Camellia has



Shaw                    Expires November 13, 2007               [Page 3]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


   been found to be vulnerable to attack.


5.  IANA Considerations

   This document requires IANA to assign an algorithm number from the
   registry of OpenPGP Symmetric Key Algorithms that was created by
   [RFC2440bis].


6.  Normative References

   [RFC2119]  Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate
              Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997.

   [RFC2440bis]
              Callas, J., Donnerhacke, L., Finney, H., and R. Thayer,
              "OpenPGP Message Format (2440bis placeholder as it hasn't
              been published yet)", RFC 2440bis, November 1998.

   [RFC3713]  Matsui, M., Nakajima, J., and S. Moriai, "A Description of
              the Camellia Encryption Algorithm", RFC 3713, April 2004.


Author's Address

   David Shaw

   Email: dshaw@jabberwocky.com






















Shaw                    Expires November 13, 2007               [Page 4]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


Full Copyright Statement

   Copyright (C) The IETF Trust (2007).

   This document is subject to the rights, licenses and restrictions
   contained in BCP 78, and except as set forth therein, the authors
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Acknowledgment

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Shaw                    Expires November 13, 2007               [Page 5]


--FCuugMFkClbJLl1L--



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From: David Shaw <dshaw@jabberwocky.com>
To: Jon Callas <jon@callas.org>
Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: Camellia draft
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On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 11:02:19AM -0700, Jon Callas wrote:

> > It has not.  The registry is created with 2440bis, but since 2440bis
> > hasn't been published yet it does not have a number.  I'm using 2440
> > as a "least incorrect" placeholder until the real number is available.
> >
> 
> I would argue that 2440bis would be the least incorrect placeholder.

Fixed.

> I have one suggestion that that would be for a small note on  
> interoperability. Something like:
> 
> Note that while the OpenPGP cipher negotiation prevents  
> interoperability problems with messages, if Camillia (or any other  
> optional cipher) is used for encrypting private keys, there could be  
> interoperability problems when migrating a private key from one  
> system to another.

Good point.  I did this:

   Note that while OpenPGP cipher negotiation prevents
   interoperability problems with public key encrypted messages, if
   Camellia (or any other optional cipher) is used for encrypting
   private keys, there could be interoperability problems when
   migrating a private key from one system to another.  A similar
   issue can arise when using an optional cipher for symmetric-only
   encrypted messages (which may not perform cipher negotiation).
   Senders of such messages should take care they are using a cipher
   that their intended recipient can decrypt.

David



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Subject: Re: IESG evaluation of draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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> The main comment was on document clarity.  The concern is that the
> consensus of the IESG is that this document probably doesn't provide
> enough guidance that you can make an implementation of Open PGP that
> will interoperate just from the information in this document.
>

During working on 2440bis, we had an implementation (OpenPGP:SDK by  
Ben Laurie and Rachel Wilmer) that was built solely from 2440bis.  
They intentionally did not look at at the source code of any other  
implementation, and we made numerous changes based on their input.

You can, and we have.

	Jon




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He's out of surgery, doing well, and the doctors say he'll be better  
than he's been for ten years.

	Jon


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To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: IESG evaluation of draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:34:11 -0400
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Hi.  The IESG discussed draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis on today's IESG
call.

The main comment was on document clarity.  The concern is that the
consensus of the IESG is that this document probably doesn't provide
enough guidance that you can make an implementation of Open PGP that
will interoperate just from the information in this document.

I think there are two reasons why this is not the case.  First, it's
not clear the set of mandatory to implement mechanisms is sufficiently
well specified.  Second, there are concerns about document clarity.
Section 11 does come close to explaining how you would take the other
parts of the document and produce interoperable messages.  However I
suspect that if I read only this document I would not get it right on
the first try.

However, the IESG does not want to block an update to an existing
proposed standard.  So, I'd appreciate the working group working and
getting as far as you can to address discusses related to clarity.
However, ultimately, we will publish the document.  We will probably
include an IESG note describing our concern and stating that
significant improvements in clarity would be required to take this to
draft standard.

I think only one person ended up holding a discuss on this issue.
That's an artifact of how the IESG operates.  There was a consensus on
the call today that this is a real issue.

So, please prepare a WG response to the following IESG comments:

Things marked discuss are blocking comments that need to be addressed
in some form.  Things marked comment are offered as input to the WG.
I've already explained to Chris that the WG has considered and
rejected the proposal regarding PGP MIME.  Also, the down reference
issues are not going to be a problem.


   Ron Bonica:
   Discuss:
   [2007-05-10] Echoing Lar's and Magnus' concerns about incomplete
   specification.
   Lars Eggert:
   Comment:
   [2007-05-07] I'm abstaining from this document. I believe that it is
   impossible to develop an interoperable OpenPGP implementation based
   on this document, because it merely defines a packet format without
   explaining the semantics of the various fields in a way that would
   let an implementor design the required program logic. I'm not aware
   of a companion document that includes that content, either. It is in
   my opinion inappropriate to publish this document as a Proposed
   Standard for this reason. I would have no objection with publishing
   this document as Informational or maybe even Historic.
   Russ Housley:
   Comment:
   [2007-05-07]   Some comments come from the Gen-ART review by Miguel
   Garcia.
     These two paragraphs should include references for RFC 2119 and
     RFC 2434:
     >
     > The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL
   NOT",
     > "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in
   this
     > document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
     >
     > The key words "PRIVATE USE", "HIERARCHICAL ALLOCATION", "FIRST
   COME
     > FIRST SERVED", "EXPERT REVIEW", "SPECIFICATION REQUIRED", "IESG
     > APPROVAL", "IETF CONSENSUS", and "STANDARDS ACTION" that appear
   in
     > this document when used to describe namespace allocation are to
   be
     > interpreted as described in RFC 2434.
     >
     There are other RFCs that are referenced by number without
   including
     the appropriate reference (RFC 1991 is an example).

     The document contains this reference [RFC 1950], but it is not
   included
     in the references.
   Chris Newman:
   Comment:
   [2007-05-03] The clear signature format in section 7 causes signature
   crud to appear
   in mail readers that do not support PGP.  It's my belief that such
   "crud"
   can be harmful to deployment of technology (e.g., user A starts using
   PGP sends signed mail to user B who doesn't use PGP but sees lots of
   PGP boilerplate around the email so user B complains to user A about
   this
   and user A decides PGP is too much trouble).  As the IETF has
   standardized a mechanism (RFC 3156) which allows mail clients to
   suppress
   most of the "crud," and this mechanism allows a single piece of code
   to
   gracefully handle both PGP and S/MIME, it's my belief we should
   recommend
   greater use of that mechanism to help support greater deployment of
   secure email technology.
   An additional benefit of RFC 3156 is gateways that alter whitespace
   or
   encodings will keep their hands off that part of the message in a way
   they might not otherwise.  The format in section 7 doesn't have that
   benefit and is thus somewhat more fragile.
   As a result, I am presently voting to abstain on this version of this
   document.  That means the document may still proceed to publication
   unless several of my peers on the IESG choose to also abstain.  In
   short,
   I feel strongly enough about this to not help this document progress,
   but not so strongly that I'm going to actively oppose progression.
   Changing the text to say that RFC 3156 SHOULD be used instead
   of the format in section 7 for environments that support MIME
   multipart messages would cause me to positively support forward
   progression of this document.
   Also be aware that a large number of the normative references
   probably
   count as downrefs.  If there are any downref sticklers left on the
   IESG,
   it may save time to IETF last call the downrefs in advance if that
   wasn't
   already done.
   Section 6 mentions the constant '0x864CFB' while the sample code uses
   the constant '0x1864cfb'; which one is correct?
   Other nits:
   Section 3.7.1.3
   Could use int32_t (ISO C 99 standard) rather than nonstandard Int32.
   Section 4.2.3
   I was confused about packet length vs. body length especially after
   reading the last paragraph.  Perhaps make sure you've used the terms
   consistently.
   Section 7.1
   What happens if the "- " prefix causes the line to exceed SMTP line
   length limits (998 characters)?
   Tim Polk:
   Discuss:
   [2007-05-10] This is a DISCUSS discuss.  My apologies for its
   length...
   This document would benefit from additional information on
   cryptographic key sizes.  For
   algorithms that may use a range of key sizes, the document specifies
   a minimum (e.g., section
   13.5 states "An implementation SHOULD NOT implement RSA keys of size
   less than 1024 bits.")
   However, it does not make any further requirements.
   Two conforming implementations could be developed - one that
   processed only 1024 bit
   signatures, and a second that processed only 2048 bit signatures -
   and they would not
   interoperate.  I admit this is a bit of a stretch but it plays into a
   more realistic scenario of
   great concern to me.    Current guidance from a number of sources
   (including RFC 3766,
   NIST's cryptographers, etc.) indicates that 1024 bit cryptography
   should be phased out.
   Consider the case where the reciever has an implementation that only
   supports 1024 bit keys,
   but the sender uses 2048 bit keys for signing messages, based on that
   guidance.
   If I purchase a conforming implementation that only suports 1024 bit
   keys, I may not be able
   to communicate with many organizations in the very near future.
   Consider it a standards
   compliant denial of service attack!  In my opinion, this
   specification should encourage
   implementers to support broad ranges of key sizes, especially for RSA
   and DSA.  I understand
   that this is not normal IETF procedure, but I believe that key size
   agility is important.
   At a minimum, I would like to see this concept appear in the security
   considerations.  It
   might be convenient to present the concept after the table of
   equivalent symmetric key
   strengths from [SP800-57] is given.  Establishing a range of MUST
   implement key sizes
   would be better, but may adversely impact implementations for small
   footprint devices.
   Magnus Westerlund:
   Discuss:
   [2007-05-10] I do agree with Lars about that this specification will
   not produce interoperable implementations, but maybe not for the same
   reasons.
   OpenPGP is used in system where sender and receiver do not have the
   possibility to negotiate feauter support prior to sending a message.
   Due to this I would expect very tight definitions on what must be
   implemented in receivers of openPGP. But already in section 2 it is
   made cleared that a lot of important and fundamental mechanisms like
   compression and RADIX-64 support is not mandated, only recommeded. As
   I see it this is one of the cases is where the decoder specification
   is the most important. As long as the encoder creates something that
   a standard compliant decoder can decode things are fine. The Feature
   option helps somewhat, but still think there is need for improvement
   here.
   I don't see specifying the decoder in this fashion will have any
   impact on the compatibility with the deployed base. The compatibility
   comes into encoding recommendations. And you already have profiles
   over recommend set of behavior to get interoperability given the
   knowledge about receivers and their levels. However without a tight
   decoder spec one will never in the future be able to go beyond the
   recommend sets even when knowing that the decoder will be following
   this specification.
   If the WG has reasons why they can't be better specified, please
   inform me.
   Section 5.2.3.1:
     "An implementation SHOULD ignore any subpacket of a type that it
   does
       not recognize."
   This is one more point where interoperability problems arise due to
   too loose specifications. Either one ignore or not unknowns types.
   Only knowing what will happen in a receiver can one dare to deploy
   new sub packet types. Especially considering that you have a
   mechanism to indicate that sub packet types must be understood I
   don't understand why tighter language has not been used. To me it
   seems that the specification should be written in the following form:
   subpacket types SHALL be ignored unless the "critical" indicator is
   set, in which case an error SHALL be generated.
   section 6:
       OpenPGP's Radix-64 encoding is composed of two parts: a base64
       encoding of the binary data, and a checksum. The base64 encoding
   is
       identical to the MIME base64 content-transfer-encoding [RFC2045].
   Shouldn't this specification use RFC 4648 as reference for base64
   encoding?
     ________________________________________________________________



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From: Jon Callas <jon@callas.org>
Subject: PRZ going in for heart surgery
Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 18:54:21 -0700
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Phil Zimmermann is going in tonight (7 May) for heart bypass surgery.  
He's not in immediate danger -- he's not having a heart attack, he's  
not no in immediate danger, but they're pushing him into the hospital  
quicker than any reasonable person would like. Obviously, that makes  
for worries. He meets with his surgeon tomorrow morning, and likely  
will have surgery tomorrow (8 May).

	Jon


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To: Jon Callas <jon@callas.org>
Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: [Chris Newman] COMMENT: draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
References: <tslirb8s9ni.fsf@mit.edu> <D7779F19-A7BC-4266-ACCD-210713939CDF@callas.org>
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In-Reply-To: <D7779F19-A7BC-4266-ACCD-210713939CDF@callas.org> (Jon Callas's message of "Fri, 4 May 2007 17:48:35 -0700")
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>>>>> "Jon" == Jon Callas <jon@callas.org> writes:

    Jon> On May 4, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Sam Hartman wrote: Here are some
    Jon> other answers:

    >> Also be aware that a large number of the normative references
    >> probably count as downrefs.  If there are any downref sticklers
    >> left on the IESG, it may save time to IETF last call the
    >> downrefs in advance if that wasn't already done.
    >> 

    Jon> I ran the last couple revisions through idnits and eliminated
    Jon> all downrefs. If there are new ones, we can fix them, but
    Jon> three weeks ago, there were none.

Sorry, I meant to trim this part of Chris's message from what I sent to the WG.

Like Jon, I believe the downref situation is well in hand.  If any
questions are raised on the IESG I can deal with them using an RFC
3967 last call.

--Sam



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Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 08:44:04 -0400
From: David Shaw <dshaw@jabberwocky.com>
To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: [Chris Newman] COMMENT: draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
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I agree that we should not change the draft on the 3156 question.
Everything that needed to be said has been said, so I'll just comment
on this:

> What happens if the "- " prefix causes the line to exceed SMTP line
> length limits (998 characters)?

As I see it, nothing, any more than a too-long line would be when not
dash-escaped.  Armor is not email (or any transport) specific.  Just
like the very common line-wrapping problem, if there is a desire to
transport a message through a system that has line length limits, it
is incumbent on the sender to do it in such a way that the message
survives transport.  We even mention this in the draft, albeit in the
context of Armor Headers.

David



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From: Werner Koch <wk@gnupg.org>
To: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: [Chris Newman] COMMENT: draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
References: <tslirb8s9ni.fsf@mit.edu>
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On Fri,  4 May 2007 20:53, hartmans-ietf@mit.edu said:

> Do people in the working group support making the change Chris
> proposes?  It is unlikely to be required by the IESG and is unlikely
> to delay the document either way.  The question is whether people
> believe that it would make the document better.

I fully agree with these comments and they have been the topic of many
discussions in the past 9 years.  However, there is no really agreement
and clear signed messages are actually in wide spread use.  Even if the
RFC would more strongly suggest the use of PGP/MIME, it won't change the
reality.  For some widely deployed mail systems it is even not possible
to use PGP/MIME.

The clear signed messages are well defined and working, no reason to
ban them.

So for the sake of having a good and working standard now, we should not
open this fruitless discussion again but go ahead in the RFC process.


Salam-Shalom,

   Werner



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From: Jon Callas <jon@callas.org>
Subject: Re: [Chris Newman] COMMENT: draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:48:35 -0700
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On May 4, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Sam Hartman wrote:

Here are some other answers:

> Also be aware that a large number of the normative references probably
> count as downrefs.  If there are any downref sticklers left on the  
> IESG,
> it may save time to IETF last call the downrefs in advance if that  
> wasn't
> already done.
>

I ran the last couple revisions through idnits and eliminated all  
downrefs. If there are new ones, we can fix them, but three weeks  
ago, there were none.


> Section 6 mentions the constant '0x864CFB' while the sample code  
> uses the
> constant '0x1864cfb'; which one is correct?
>

Section 6. I've corrected it now.

> Other nits:
> Section 3.7.1.3
> Could use int32_t (ISO C 99 standard) rather than nonstandard Int32.

Yes, but the sentence following says:

    The above formula is in C, where "Int32" is a type for a 32-bit
    integer, and the variable "c" is the coded count, Octet 10.

> Section 4.2.3
> I was confused about packet length vs. body length especially after
> reading the last paragraph.  Perhaps make sure you've used the terms
> consistently.

Okay.

> Section 7.1
> What happens if the "- " prefix causes the line to exceed SMTP line
> length limits (998 characters)?

As we said in the previous discussion of clearsigned signatures,  
using them in email isn't the only use of OpenPGP, and may not even  
be the most common one.

If someone generates an OpenPGP clearsigned object that exceeds the  
SMTP line limit length (which is 1000 characters, not 998), then the  
SMTP server might generate an error. It would behoove an  
implementation that uses both OpenPGP and SMTP to follow both standards.

	Jon



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Subject: Re: [Chris Newman] COMMENT: draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
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On May 4, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Sam Hartman wrote:

>
>
>
> Do people in the working group support making the change Chris
> proposes?  It is unlikely to be required by the IESG and is unlikely
> to delay the document either way.  The question is whether people
> believe that it would make the document better.
>

I object most strongly.

As an implementer, I do lots of work to make OpenPGP/MIME work  
correctly. The problem is that this is not easy, particularly in the  
case where you want to have a very complex message and encryption and  
signatures. It's fine for an implementer to strive for that because  
customers want it. It's wholly another thing for the standard to say it.

Additionally, these "harmful" headers have been around for the last  
fifteen years. It's not like we're suddenly creating these things.

Ian has also said as adequately as I have that OpenPGP's technology  
is used for many other things than email. I don't need to add more.

	Jon


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Subject: Re: [Chris Newman] COMMENT: draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
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Sam Hartman wrote:
> 
> 
> Do people in the working group support making the change Chris
> proposes?  It is unlikely to be required by the IESG and is unlikely
> to delay the document either way.  The question is whether people
> believe that it would make the document better.



I object, most strongly!



The paragraph at the beginning states quite clearly:

================================
7. Cleartext signature framework

     It is desirable to be able to sign a textual octet 
stream without ASCII armoring the stream itself, so the 
signed text is still readable without special software. In 
order to bind a signature to such a cleartext, this 
framework is used. (Note that this framework is not intended 
to be reversible. RFC 3156 defines another way to sign 
cleartext messages for environments that support MIME.)
================================


This section/feature is not to do with email.  The format 
*MAY* be used over email, and takes some care to permit 
mailers to send that format.  However, this format is about 
signing documents, not sending emails.  The paragraph above 
quite clearly mentions the other context of sending messages 
over email, by referring to RFC 3156.

Specifically, OpenPGP's cleartext signature format is used 
for signing documents that might have legal import.  (E.g., 
human signing that indicates that signatory 
reads/understands/intends/accepts the document, something 
that practically no other RFC addresses.)

According to legal context, separated signatures aren't much 
use, and indeed, will likely raise costs and cause false 
expectations.  MIME, etc, are pretty much useless in a legal 
context because there is no easy way to both prove the 
signature *and* convince a skeptical audience (judge & jury) 
that the document is indeed signed.

Discussions of crud, etc, miss the point.  OpenPGP is not a 
standard for only email encryption, and should not be 
treated as only such.  It *MAY* be and is widely used for 
email, but should not be confused with other more custom 
email encryption designs such as S/MIME, that can only be 
used for email.

Likewise, his point that on "deployment of technology" is 
out of place in a technology that is now 15 years old.  The 
RFC won't change its success one way or another.

(I have no comment on his comment about normative and other 
nitpicks!)

iang

PS:  For more commentary on the legal aspects of using 
OpenPGP cleartext signatures see 
http://iang.org/papers/ricardian_contract.html





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To: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: [Chris Newman] COMMENT: draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
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On Fri, May 04, 2007 at 02:53:21PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:

> Do people in the working group support making the change Chris
> proposes?  It is unlikely to be required by the IESG and is unlikely
> to delay the document either way.  The question is whether people
> believe that it would make the document better.

I definitely do agree with Chris that using traditional PGP clearsigned
messages in email is harmful in so many ways. I have actually encountered t=
he
scenario that he describes as hypothetical several times (even in a corpora=
te
setting).

I am fully supportive of the change (and even the recommended wording).

Also, I would like to mention that together with Janis Schuller, we have
devised a very nice way of interoperating between environments which do
support multipart mime and those that do not. Please take a look at this
document:
http://redcent.h1101990.serverkompetenz.net/0000000000000095

It is a Section 7-style clearsigned document, but it can be converted into
an rfc3156-style signed document without using the private key (actually,
just using a text editor).

Note: Squatting the text/plain.epoint.* mime-type namespace was not a nice
thing to do, but that is not the point.

Cheers,

--=20
Daniel

--mP3DRpeJDSE+ciuQ
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)

iQDVAwUBRjuYr66pEulQFnIMAQLH1QX7BSN7n5xbClL2xlTGTb7JwMLOcyXFKMTA
kVZq6913oNgUYkDyyi7PzHIHhnPax8lMj8cvfV/uW8T4xwCoWkNAijiJ6607f1iP
ql58MxfPMFKFZTQpdbOW8AbHMKwqtgAtJoQUFap3hyF23Hjmfgwd+5PQg3D8zLiH
UdeUQAuizBy3cGtSAsJvNvZhQyvG/0b01DqtidoSZVA9yWUuEKMthKuAcpZyyVE0
c7K3UE+gAkHHVUAo8C6otUVdB1xJSGzu
=YT2Z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--mP3DRpeJDSE+ciuQ--



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Subject: [Chris Newman] COMMENT: draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis
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--=-=-=




Do people in the working group support making the change Chris
proposes?  It is unlikely to be required by the IESG and is unlikely
to delay the document either way.  The question is whether people
believe that it would make the document better.



--=-=-=
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<https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=print_ballot&ballot_id=790&filename=draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc2440bis>

The clear signature format in section 7 causes signature crud to appear
in mail readers that do not support PGP.  It's my belief that such "crud"
can be harmful to deployment of technology (e.g., user A starts using
PGP sends signed mail to user B who doesn't use PGP but sees lots of
PGP boilerplate around the email so user B complains to user A about this
and user A decides PGP is too much trouble).  As the IETF has
standardized a mechanism (RFC 3156) which allows mail clients to suppress
most of the "crud," and this mechanism allows a single piece of code to
gracefully handle both PGP and S/MIME, it's my belief we should recommend
greater use of that mechanism to help support greater deployment of
secure email technology.

An additional benefit of RFC 3156 is gateways that alter whitespace or
encodings will keep their hands off that part of the message in a way
they might not otherwise.  The format in section 7 doesn't have that
benefit and is thus somewhat more fragile.

As a result, I am presently voting to abstain on this version of this
document.  That means the document may still proceed to publication
unless several of my peers on the IESG choose to also abstain.  In short,
I feel strongly enough about this to not help this document progress,
but not so strongly that I'm going to actively oppose progression.

Changing the text to say that RFC 3156 SHOULD be used instead
of the format in section 7 for environments that support MIME
multipart messages would cause me to positively support forward
progression of this document.

Also be aware that a large number of the normative references probably
count as downrefs.  If there are any downref sticklers left on the IESG,
it may save time to IETF last call the downrefs in advance if that wasn't
already done.

Section 6 mentions the constant '0x864CFB' while the sample code uses the
constant '0x1864cfb'; which one is correct?

Other nits:
Section 3.7.1.3
Could use int32_t (ISO C 99 standard) rather than nonstandard Int32.
Section 4.2.3
I was confused about packet length vs. body length especially after
reading the last paragraph.  Perhaps make sure you've used the terms
consistently.
Section 7.1
What happens if the "- " prefix causes the line to exceed SMTP line
length limits (998 characters)?

                - Chris





--=-=-=--



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Hi.  You moved 1991 to normative not 1951.

I will deal with that using an rfc-editor note; you need do nothing at
this point.

I'm placing openpgp on the May 10 agenda.



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From: Jon Callas <jon@callas.org>
Subject: Re: Camellia draft
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:02:19 -0700
To: David Shaw <dshaw@jabberwocky.com>
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On May 3, 2007, at 6:12 AM, David Shaw wrote:

>
> On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 02:47:52PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:
>>
>> * David Shaw:
>>
>>> 5.  IANA Considerations
>>>
>>>    This document requires IANA to assign an algorithm number from  
>>> the
>>>    registry of OpenPGP Symmetric Key Algorithms that was created by
>>>    [RFC2440].
>>
>> Has this registry been created with RFC 2440?  I can't find it on the
>> IANA web site.
>
> It has not.  The registry is created with 2440bis, but since 2440bis
> hasn't been published yet it does not have a number.  I'm using 2440
> as a "least incorrect" placeholder until the real number is available.
>

I would argue that 2440bis would be the least incorrect placeholder.

I have one suggestion that that would be for a small note on  
interoperability. Something like:

Note that while the OpenPGP cipher negotiation prevents  
interoperability problems with messages, if Camillia (or any other  
optional cipher) is used for encrypting private keys, there could be  
interoperability problems when migrating a private key from one  
system to another.

That may not be perfect, but you get the idea. Otherwise, I think the  
draft is fine.

	Jon


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Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 09:12:02 -0400
From: David Shaw <dshaw@jabberwocky.com>
To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: Camellia draft
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On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 02:47:52PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:
> 
> * David Shaw:
> 
> > 5.  IANA Considerations
> >
> >    This document requires IANA to assign an algorithm number from the
> >    registry of OpenPGP Symmetric Key Algorithms that was created by
> >    [RFC2440].
> 
> Has this registry been created with RFC 2440?  I can't find it on the
> IANA web site.

It has not.  The registry is created with 2440bis, but since 2440bis
hasn't been published yet it does not have a number.  I'm using 2440
as a "least incorrect" placeholder until the real number is available.

David



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From: Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>
To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: Camellia draft
References: <20070503033606.GA25662@jabberwocky.com>
Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 14:47:52 +0200
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* David Shaw:

> 5.  IANA Considerations
>
>    This document requires IANA to assign an algorithm number from the
>    registry of OpenPGP Symmetric Key Algorithms that was created by
>    [RFC2440].

Has this registry been created with RFC 2440?  I can't find it on the
IANA web site.



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Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 23:36:06 -0400
From: David Shaw <dshaw@jabberwocky.com>
To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Subject: Camellia draft
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Here's a stab at a draft for Camellia in OpenPGP.  Some notes:

* I structured it as a personal informational submission.  I'm not
sure of the procedure (WG consensus?), but I'm sure that making this a
official standards-track submission from the WG would be preferable.

* I haven't yet sent this to the draft submission address at the IETF.
If people here more or less like what I've written, I will.

* This draft is marked as "Updates: 2440" and references 2440
incorrectly here and there.  That's just a placeholder.  I assume that
2440bis will be published with its new number fairly soon, and as soon
as that happens, I'll update the draft.

David

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Network Working Group                                            D. Shaw
Internet-Draft                                               May 2, 2007
Updates: 2440 (if approved)
Intended status: Informational
Expires: November 3, 2007


                     The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP
                     draft-shaw-openpgp-camellia-00

Status of this Memo

   By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any
   applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware
   have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes
   aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79.

   Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups.  Note that
   other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-
   Drafts.

   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
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   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."

   The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at
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   The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.

   This Internet-Draft will expire on November 3, 2007.

Copyright Notice

   Copyright (C) The IETF Trust (2007).

Abstract

   This document presents the necessary information to use the Camellia
   block cipher in the OpenPGP protocol.








Shaw                    Expires November 3, 2007                [Page 1]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


Table of Contents

   1.  Introduction  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   2.  Requirements notation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   3.  Camellia  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   4.  Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   5.  IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   6.  Normative References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
   Author's Address  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
   Intellectual Property and Copyright Statements  . . . . . . . . . . 5









































Shaw                    Expires November 3, 2007                [Page 2]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


1.  Introduction

   The OpenPGP protocol [RFC2440] can support many different block
   ciphers.  This memo presents the necessary information to use the
   Camellia [RFC3713] block cipher in the OpenPGP protocol.


2.  Requirements notation

   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
   document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119].


3.  Camellia

   Camellia is specified in [RFC3713].

   The symmetric key algorithm number for Camellia with a 256-bit key in
   OpenPGP is XXXXX [fill this in - presumably it's 11].  Note that
   while Camellia supports 128-bit, 192-bit, and 256-bit keys, the only
   Camellia key length used for OpenPGP is 256 bits.

   OpenPGP programs MAY implement Camellia.  If implemented, Camellia
   may be used in any place in OpenPGP where a symmetric cipher is
   usable, and is subject to the same usage requirements (such as its
   presence in the Symmetric Algorithm Preferences signature subpacket)
   as the other symmetric ciphers in OpenPGP.


4.  Security Considerations

   At publication time, there are no known weak keys for Camellia, and
   the Camellia algorithm is believed to be strong.  However, as with
   any technology involving cryptography, implementers should check the
   current literature, as well as the Camellia home page at
   <http://info.isl.ntt.co.jp/camellia/>, to determine if Camellia has
   been found to be vulnerable to attack.


5.  IANA Considerations

   This document requires IANA to assign an algorithm number from the
   registry of OpenPGP Symmetric Key Algorithms that was created by
   [RFC2440].






Shaw                    Expires November 3, 2007                [Page 3]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


6.  Normative References

   [RFC2119]  Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate
              Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997.

   [RFC2440]  Callas, J., Donnerhacke, L., Finney, H., and R. Thayer,
              "OpenPGP Message Format", RFC 2440, November 1998.

   [RFC3713]  Matsui, M., Nakajima, J., and S. Moriai, "A Description of
              the Camellia Encryption Algorithm", RFC 3713, April 2004.


Author's Address

   David Shaw

   Email: dshaw@jabberwocky.com


































Shaw                    Expires November 3, 2007                [Page 4]

Internet-Draft       The Camellia Cipher in OpenPGP             May 2007


Full Copyright Statement

   Copyright (C) The IETF Trust (2007).

   This document is subject to the rights, licenses and restrictions
   contained in BCP 78, and except as set forth therein, the authors
   retain all their rights.

   This document and the information contained herein are provided on an
   "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE REPRESENTS
   OR IS SPONSORED BY (IF ANY), THE INTERNET SOCIETY, THE IETF TRUST AND
   THE INTERNET ENGINEERING TASK FORCE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS
   OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF
   THE INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED
   WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.


Intellectual Property

   The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any
   Intellectual Property Rights or other rights that might be claimed to
   pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in
   this document or the extent to which any license under such rights
   might or might not be available; nor does it represent that it has
   made any independent effort to identify any such rights.  Information
   on the procedures with respect to rights in RFC documents can be
   found in BCP 78 and BCP 79.

   Copies of IPR disclosures made to the IETF Secretariat and any
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   attempt made to obtain a general license or permission for the use of
   such proprietary rights by implementers or users of this
   specification can be obtained from the IETF on-line IPR repository at
   http://www.ietf.org/ipr.

   The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any
   copyrights, patents or patent applications, or other proprietary
   rights that may cover technology that may be required to implement
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Acknowledgment

   Funding for the RFC Editor function is provided by the IETF
   Administrative Support Activity (IASA).





Shaw                    Expires November 3, 2007                [Page 5]


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To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org
Cc: Jon Callas <jon@callas.org>
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Hi,

> I'm only going to answer parts of your question.

I hope you read the full mail. In footnote 3 a mistake was mentioned:
>> 3. Note, that there is a further mistake: (f) doesn't even exist.
>>    The list ends with (e).

I mean, in (a.2) and (a.3) the "(b)-(f)" has to be "(b)-(e)".

[Magic Dingus Encryption]
> In such a case, when we write the RFC for MDE in OpenPGP, we would =20
> need to state how you compute the fingerprint of an MDE key in that =20
> RFC. That's it.

As long as no big inconsistencies occur, this is good, yes.
Imho it's easier just to say, that the size modulo 65536 is used.

Kind Regards,
Stephan Beyer

--=20
Stephan Beyer <s-beyer@gmx.net>, PGP 0x6EDDD207FCC5040F

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFGOKWrbt3SB/zFBA8RAnBtAJ9njzJMn9Es4nMmAlfN6uwTQnVJ2gCgzW8/
/runC4I1vnUDe/70oiNsb7Y=
=0WpW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--m51xatjYGsM+13rf--



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From: Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
To: Hironobu SUZUKI <hironobu@h2np.net>
Cc: OpenPGP <ietf-openpgp@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Camellia for OpenPGP
References: <E1HgJCj-0005FJ-00@sea.h2np.net> <E1HiijM-0004sl-00@sea.h2np.net>
OpenPGP: id=B565716F; url=http://josefsson.org/key.txt
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Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 21:47:52 +0200
In-Reply-To: <E1HiijM-0004sl-00@sea.h2np.net> (Hironobu SUZUKI's message of "Tue\, 01 May 2007 12\:08\:42 +0900")
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Hironobu SUZUKI <hironobu@h2np.net> writes:

>> But, if some disclosure document for OpenPGP is required, I ask it
>> NTT.  I estimate that it takes 2 or 3 weeks to get it.
>
> I contacted to NTT about issuing IPR for OpenPGP WG as well as IPSEC,
> S/MIME, TLS.  They accepted it and IPR for OpenPGP will be issued for
> a while.

Thanks for doing that, I believe it is the correct way to deal with the
patent under the IETF policies on this.

/Simon