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Good evening openpgp-archive

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PCJ sham

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Yo openpgp-archive

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From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 07 10:53:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeXVI-0001vn-6j for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 10:53:12 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeXV5-0008Uc-Tt for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 10:53:06 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l97EQYOf033561 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 7 Oct 2007 07:26:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l97EQYfB033560; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 07:26:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com (mu-out-0910.google.com [209.85.134.187]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l97EQVs5033553 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 07:26:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rwillmer@gmail.com) Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id i2so1368924mue for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 07:26:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=qppezhP2BN2wkcEFYIfPv6dCp5wcVYr5T3P2DJLDDL0=; b=DJiSwb53Mqg/1WomMEEZjLZyBec/4VwTNapTuuw3PgAMgfdIfJgRGgY6CnXDWrsoox/BCGHKdwTmifHkgBRrcfKMcD3vkRrtzObJ70xsi+kUj727e2wr7DoSvS2AT/0zUFPli3UHK1Zja7WRucTuVQg/w1sNJXuTEgWf7MLKTlg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=OQrvtkhmgxwRNd4gVmMkcShp9Tx1H6liunUaNXmTwTdEXbni1xFkv+bOfuQH2ublZ715eFceCUeSptVjiHXfCuuGHl3P0ol8zTrSC5APuRScnL9neFbe9A/rUwQnpctVIz+Fs8Pv5qIXZVNiPIL4lNc2i0n5ur1sHHcO0MOqCHk= Received: by 10.86.28.5 with SMTP id b5mr4278295fgb.1191767190970; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 07:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.54.8 with HTTP; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 07:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:26:30 +0100 From: "Rachel Willmer" To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 I've hit an interoperability problem with GnuPG, and need guidance on the legality or otherwise of multiple OpenPGP messages in a single file where those messages are "Encrypted Messages" (as defined in Section 11.3 "OpenPGP Messages". If I have a file which contains 2 Encrypted Messages, e.g. the packet sequence goes: ESK Sequence | Encrypted Data | ESK Sequence | Encrypted Data is this: a) legal b) illegal c) legal but not supported by GnuPG d) outwith the scope of the ID since that defines only "OpenPGP Message Format", not what you can do with those messages I believe the answer is either (c) or (d).... Rachel From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 07 13:15:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeZid-0002aq-RL for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 13:15:07 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeZiY-0003WW-Hy for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 13:15:03 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l97GtD7F051469 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:55:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l97GtDLr051468; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:55:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from foobar.cs.jhu.edu (foobar.cs.jhu.edu [128.220.13.173]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l97GtCat051460 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:55:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dshaw@jabberwocky.com) Received: from walrus.jabberwocky.com (c-75-69-177-157.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [75.69.177.157]) by foobar.cs.jhu.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l97GtBl18645 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:55:11 -0400 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (grover.jabberwocky.com [172.24.84.28]) by walrus.jabberwocky.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l97Gt6bs002105 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:55:06 -0400 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.14.1/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l97Gt5Iw023742 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:55:05 -0400 Received: (from dshaw@localhost) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id l97Gt5pm023741 for ietf-openpgp@imc.org; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:55:05 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:55:05 -0400 From: David Shaw To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? Message-ID: <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> Mail-Followup-To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> OpenPGP: id=99242560; url=http://www.jabberwocky.com/david/keys.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.15 (2007-05-20) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 03:26:30PM +0100, Rachel Willmer wrote: > > I've hit an interoperability problem with GnuPG, and need guidance on > the legality or otherwise of multiple OpenPGP messages in a single > file where those messages are "Encrypted Messages" (as defined in > Section 11.3 "OpenPGP Messages". > > If I have a file which contains 2 Encrypted Messages, e.g. the packet > sequence goes: > > ESK Sequence | Encrypted Data | ESK Sequence | Encrypted Data > > is this: > > a) legal > > b) illegal > > c) legal but not supported by GnuPG > > d) outwith the scope of the ID since that defines only "OpenPGP > Message Format", not what you can do with those messages > > I believe the answer is either (c) or (d).... The answer, I would say, is (d): out of scope. The spec requires that Transferable Public Keys can be concatenated, but not Encrypted Messages. David From Kieft@adcp.co.uk Sun Oct 07 17:24:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iedbk-00068B-Ua for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 17:24:16 -0400 Received: from host114-167-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([82.53.167.114]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iedbf-0006Xa-7z for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 17:24:11 -0400 Received: by 10.195.184.94 with SMTP id IUTAjfMUHjoTS; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:24:17 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.104.39 with SMTP id RXtLBjXJJHWFSp.0205371390799; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:24:15 +0200 (GMT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:24:12 +0200 To: openpgp-archive@ietf.org From: "Bengt Kieft" Subject: eziralus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Nice to meet you openpgp-archive What do women really want? a small 5 incher or a big 8 incher? 8 inch of course Bengt Kieft http://www.pixlogt.net/ From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 07 19:01:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ief7P-0005Ee-EN for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 19:01:03 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ief79-0003At-JF for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 19:00:52 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l97MfSKN075041 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:41:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l97MfSIj075040; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:41:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.189]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l97MfQo3075033 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:41:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rwillmer@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c10so725091nfd for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 15:41:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=tGXwfoYHAz0UNO0AG+ocIePnYtXyGYOxfOUk6VQFZX8=; b=FIbw6zOtP5A2HhqWI3aXYhhN/JSsPQyCxua47p7zzcBJxkcGmQKDD49eyn2y1LE9I/AfQyFdP/ZwDx1xmlKTB5Es1afs+b/4cS3RSo50cmTa0nNWuAFhU3ahJMbtyFdnAX/ea9221SVY84ZiWXEDVDMHCEgsm70QDMuWhZvQaGU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=AeSqnJmY18E2kw4qVtOpV5uThCXdxFd/DuKdfQ6jNiAbSX0PmaUiOfbeqFfEIgl88Q97IvTBhWKDvQgNq6uw7yvIHGmx0FIhLbU4KMYR1fFsv7IyepveEsZvUr4JjcXXdTEXw9ChmdDxd3I904JvB2ksxabcfQE2VGZkpCGFC2k= Received: by 10.86.79.19 with SMTP id c19mr4588393fgb.1191796885421; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 15:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.54.8 with HTTP; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:41:25 +0100 From: "Rachel Willmer" To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? In-Reply-To: <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 If (d) "out of scope", which spec does define file formats? If the answer is "there isn't one which does", how do we plan to do interoperability between applications which use the OpenPGP packet format? e.g. to transfer Encrypted Messages. Is there an implicit assumption in the spec that Message = File? Rachel From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 07 22:18:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeiCd-0000uf-Nh for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 22:18:39 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeiCT-0007mS-EP for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 22:18:35 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l981pO02085797 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:51:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l981pOYZ085796; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:51:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from foobar.cs.jhu.edu (foobar.cs.jhu.edu [128.220.13.173]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l981pNIm085787 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:51:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dshaw@jabberwocky.com) Received: from walrus.jabberwocky.com (c-75-69-177-157.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [75.69.177.157]) by foobar.cs.jhu.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l981pFl21211 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:51:15 -0400 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (grover.jabberwocky.com [172.24.84.28]) by walrus.jabberwocky.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l981pA7P004607 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:51:10 -0400 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.14.1/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l981p9CL025064 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:51:09 -0400 Received: (from dshaw@localhost) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id l981p954025063 for ietf-openpgp@imc.org; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:51:09 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:51:08 -0400 From: David Shaw To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? Message-ID: <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> Mail-Followup-To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> OpenPGP: id=99242560; url=http://www.jabberwocky.com/david/keys.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.15 (2007-05-20) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 11:41:25PM +0100, Rachel Willmer wrote: > > If (d) "out of scope", which spec does define file formats? > > If the answer is "there isn't one which does", how do we plan to do > interoperability between applications which use the OpenPGP packet > format? e.g. to transfer Encrypted Messages. I didn't quite mean "out of scope" in that sense. I meant "the spec doesn't mandate it or forbid it, so it's up to the implemention to decide." As you saw, GPG doesn't do it. > Is there an implicit assumption in the spec that Message = File? Not exactly. The spec just defines bytes in a particular order. Those bytes could be an array in memory, a file, a stream over a network, etc, and the spec doesn't really care. That said, the spec does pretty much say that a file is one of the possible carriers of those bytes. David From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 05:57:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IepMo-0005UX-0H for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 05:57:38 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IepMZ-0000im-3G for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 05:57:29 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l989ZuP4018638 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 02:35:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l989ZuZ3018637; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 02:35:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l989ZsYL018631 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 02:35:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rwillmer@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c10so806022nfd for ; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 02:35:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=X/rPxvPfqgaZ8LqlUAjAmMM9aiXc5loftzII4NMIKoE=; b=GKzg+8b+ALUkj+n5aHC3euMInEbBlJJvAQ8YZYRuX9Bm1yMzaJSuJuY25Frwiat0qpBvHiiZFNwAp1OwVPYCF1AX36ldb3ACaQEEardLbb5uczl/5D+0bR24yREckN6Z5VuHhdpCS6hSa76pgyzWJ8FNx8tJG0wlbVnyfr7apJY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZT1t+PGwToB7VjaT6m8ZL6AUCYogyi0lIHJH6hGduNqjqv6C8s3vXPEoaE9GLVnGOlNq6Z8kwyAPG01mOx729WbIPmzlwJnH6LJ9aLGelYD9jGDUODGH38ogEShaCirbxbKf1RmDm8NXzKo6JLVcMZW7lPV+klkVa2/eN6AYTds= Received: by 10.86.70.8 with SMTP id s8mr4966291fga.1191836153752; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 02:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.54.8 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 02:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cd112870710080235s3e2bc0f1se15eb4f90925cee1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:35:53 +0100 From: "Rachel Willmer" To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? In-Reply-To: <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 > It shouldn't be up to the implementation to decide (IMHO). If the goal > of the WG is "to provide IETF standards for the algorithms and formats > of PGP processed objects", then surely some standard file formats > should be defined [*] : e.g. keyring, encrypted file, signed file, > etc. ... even if that just means documenting what GPG does now (and what PGP2,etc) did as de-facto standards.... Rachel From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 06:07:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IepWL-0000Kv-VP for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:07:30 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IepWA-0000yD-Lu for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:07:19 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l989YTiM018547 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 02:34:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l989YTGN018546; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 02:34:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com (mu-out-0910.google.com [209.85.134.191]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l989YQBM018538 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 02:34:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rwillmer@gmail.com) Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id i2so1642938mue for ; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 02:34:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=fUCQtodTT1mc0fEf6xiZda6tHBxtZG/retay/L6b/6Q=; b=i0pBD5F80UYJi66yQAgzIXgZ5ifWyBTfKNdxeV7xqqAhZU2TZ8udhACZxU82e+Ef+8VBdKBKJAtPmjCfz1uQFx/mwZ2wTMyTp2NKooWmsfs51bvB2yW5lXB6KhetuKN6lJTesv53M8jKZClFdUwQhJ5L0wcbBPz4xu/AJTuhieU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=J61ok1xfJlPCLoyI1z3WFThWxKZsMb+SzfxjxkEPU6Bs20ibg3gax1zbjsFSiyyDiGWL9IgBGOk+u3hGlqSnURhTpSwXNU/ktcp9bUACGuFJHhFz2O9Z5BJ3joEpcL4ryz/WT14fRfabyTWyid07hjrncdM564luU8OQ+eaOvBM= Received: by 10.86.79.19 with SMTP id c19mr4991814fgb.1191836065634; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 02:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.54.8 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 02:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:34:25 +0100 From: "Rachel Willmer" To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? In-Reply-To: <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 On 08/10/2007, David Shaw wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 11:41:25PM +0100, Rachel Willmer wrote: > > > > If (d) "out of scope", which spec does define file formats? > > > > If the answer is "there isn't one which does", how do we plan to do > > interoperability between applications which use the OpenPGP packet > > format? e.g. to transfer Encrypted Messages. > > I didn't quite mean "out of scope" in that sense. I meant "the spec > doesn't mandate it or forbid it, so it's up to the implemention to > decide." As you saw, GPG doesn't do it. It shouldn't be up to the implementation to decide (IMHO). If the goal of the WG is "to provide IETF standards for the algorithms and formats of PGP processed objects", then surely some standard file formats should be defined [*] : e.g. keyring, encrypted file, signed file, etc. Rachel [*] I'm using "file format" in the loose sense of disk file or file stream. From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 06:54:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeqFZ-0002VA-9y for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:54:13 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeqFQ-0002FV-0O for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:54:05 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98AbuAg025022 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 03:37:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98Abt0O025021; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 03:37:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from www2.futureware.at ([217.19.43.211]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98AbsgJ025015 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 03:37:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from iang@systemics.com) Received: from zhukov.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www2.futureware.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C80624F554; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:37:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:37:52 +0200 From: Ian G User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rachel Willmer Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Rachel Willmer wrote: > On 08/10/2007, David Shaw wrote: >> On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 11:41:25PM +0100, Rachel Willmer wrote: >>> If (d) "out of scope", which spec does define file formats? >>> >>> If the answer is "there isn't one which does", how do we plan to do >>> interoperability between applications which use the OpenPGP packet >>> format? e.g. to transfer Encrypted Messages. >> I didn't quite mean "out of scope" in that sense. I meant "the spec >> doesn't mandate it or forbid it, so it's up to the implemention to >> decide." As you saw, GPG doesn't do it. > > It shouldn't be up to the implementation to decide (IMHO). If the goal > of the WG is "to provide IETF standards for the algorithms and formats > of PGP processed objects", then surely some standard file formats > should be defined [*] : e.g. keyring, encrypted file, signed file, > etc. The architectural imperative here is that the definition has to stop somewhere. Stopping before the file / message level is a good idea because if you stop after the file level, you also have to define what a file is [*]. I'm sure the theoreticians will describe this more clearly than I .. but files aren't necessarily just a sequence of bytes. Emails aren't necessarily the same as files. Chat messages are different to emails. Who knows what the next innovation in storage or communication will ask of us. By stopping short of how the sequence of bytes is stored or passed, OpenPGP ensures that it is applicable and interoperable across a wide range of apps ... just by forcing the developers of the apps to agree on a few local details. Also, files like keyrings are not the subject of interoperability in normal security practice. The app owns its keyring, and it doesn't want to let anyone touch it, it's a bit of a historical accident that the PGP keyring was so easy to share. If there is a need to converse with another app, then they should use an export/import format, and there are well-defined export sequences in the spec, so that the app has a chance to deal with any complications of sharing its internal data. > Rachel > > [*] I'm using "file format" in the loose sense of disk file or file stream. A spec would not be able to be so conveniently loose ;) iang From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 07:46:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ier4Q-0002GM-9x for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 07:46:46 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ier4H-0003vg-0T for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 07:46:38 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98BQL6F030514 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 04:26:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98BQLuG030513; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 04:26:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.189]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98BQJOb030507 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 04:26:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rwillmer@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c10so824460nfd for ; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 04:26:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=22QI7oYDy4Bjy36fjnWqj3l0AIOSI9BQenqq4HJrceQ=; b=UmnBNAgVFdUFaYaYKICNm7WmltqyIYjwE5OZ3iWbh7MX4zhSIFS7CIwIns9gL4nvoAs2SH7+ch/PKJArwjTnsgIkItn5M2WChHz5abybe47GnpPmATd37tm88erDJHnJXFlREkqnCRdeTaMj3Cqx98G++bE+LM1/AMN1ZSMcR9c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=o+3I/M2W8PlHDmDtnio+bGbVVUcnHFHUSMkizZCeH9/KfeDCNzPaV65RTkHDKF81FpA+v1ZO9OmtEGCRvFa/uRUwFzsm/GShTGzDoEitlmvbRcQmsczsnI9vWRfRtbuqHEzFQUeAmsM8DS7ajTwiJ6Z+z8rEXxX84+JBnlZh+Wg= Received: by 10.86.50.8 with SMTP id x8mr5015240fgx.1191842778575; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 04:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.54.8 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 04:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cd112870710080426n3d640cf9v95c388789ee0c6df@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:26:18 +0100 From: "Rachel Willmer" To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? In-Reply-To: <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 > By stopping short of how the sequence of bytes is stored or > passed, OpenPGP ensures that it is applicable and > interoperable across a wide range of apps ... just by > forcing the developers of the apps to agree on a few local > details. "just" ??? That argument implies 3 things: a) it's acceptable to require every implemention to support each other implementation as a separate special case b) it's acceptable to require each user to specifiy at the time of encryption or signing which implementations (not algorithms, or keys, but implementations!) should be able to parse the result c) it's acceptable for 2 implementations which support the same set of algorithms and have the appropriate keys for sharing encrypted or signed data to say they both have an OpenPGP-conformant application - but which can't actually share the data. Am I the only one that thinks this is a flawed argument? Surely this should be a fundamental purpose for the standard: for you to be able to encrypt a file using your implementation, send it to me, and for me to be able to decrypt it with a different standard. Isn't it?? > A spec would not be able to be so conveniently loose ;) As someone who is trying to write a set of interoperability tests for my own implementation, I'm not sure I quite understand your use of the word "convenient" here... :-) Rachel P.S. I can take the argument that says a keyring is different, because it's local to the app. But surely, not encrypted/signed files??? From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 08:30:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ierl4-0000y9-K9 for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:30:50 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ierks-00051P-ID for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:30:40 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98CBD22034869 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 05:11:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98CBD4H034868; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 05:11:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98CBBcS034862 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 05:11:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ben@links.org) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF3333C1C; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 13:11:10 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <470A1E61.4000708@links.org> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 13:11:13 +0100 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070326 Thunderbird/2.0.0.0 Mnenhy/0.7.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian G CC: Rachel Willmer , ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> In-Reply-To: <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d Ian G wrote: > > Rachel Willmer wrote: >> On 08/10/2007, David Shaw wrote: >>> On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 11:41:25PM +0100, Rachel Willmer wrote: >>>> If (d) "out of scope", which spec does define file formats? >>>> >>>> If the answer is "there isn't one which does", how do we plan to do >>>> interoperability between applications which use the OpenPGP packet >>>> format? e.g. to transfer Encrypted Messages. >>> I didn't quite mean "out of scope" in that sense. I meant "the spec >>> doesn't mandate it or forbid it, so it's up to the implemention to >>> decide." As you saw, GPG doesn't do it. >> >> It shouldn't be up to the implementation to decide (IMHO). If the goal >> of the WG is "to provide IETF standards for the algorithms and formats >> of PGP processed objects", then surely some standard file formats >> should be defined [*] : e.g. keyring, encrypted file, signed file, >> etc. > > > The architectural imperative here is that the definition has to stop > somewhere. > > Stopping before the file / message level is a good idea because if you > stop after the file level, you also have to define what a file is [*]. > I'm sure the theoreticians will describe this more clearly than I .. but > files aren't necessarily just a sequence of bytes. Emails aren't > necessarily the same as files. Chat messages are different to emails. > Who knows what the next innovation in storage or communication will ask > of us. > > By stopping short of how the sequence of bytes is stored or passed, > OpenPGP ensures that it is applicable and interoperable across a wide > range of apps ... just by forcing the developers of the apps to agree on > a few local details. I think this entirely misses the point - the question is not how messages are stored/transmitted, but what an implementation should do when some unit of storage/transmission contains more than one message. It seems entirely reasonable to me that it should be expected to keep eating messages until there are no messages left to eat, however the spec does not state that. It seems to me that it could, quite easily. > > Also, files like keyrings are not the subject of interoperability in > normal security practice. The app owns its keyring, and it doesn't want > to let anyone touch it, it's a bit of a historical accident that the PGP > keyring was so easy to share. If there is a need to converse with > another app, then they should use an export/import format, and there are > well-defined export sequences in the spec, so that the app has a chance > to deal with any complications of sharing its internal data. > > >> Rachel >> >> [*] I'm using "file format" in the loose sense of disk file or file >> stream. > > > A spec would not be able to be so conveniently loose ;) > > iang > > -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.links.org/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From akstcacademiascorunamnsdgs@academiascoruna.com Mon Oct 08 08:58:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IesBz-0006r0-N4; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:58:39 -0400 Received: from [78.83.201.156] (helo=no-n4ijxjvg2qsr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IesBq-0005iV-0w; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:58:31 -0400 Received: from [78.83.201.156] by smtp-01.servidoresdns.net; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:58:05 +0200 From: "Carey Romero" To: Subject: SHUTE Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:58:05 +0200 Message-ID: <01c809aa$ddeee390$9cc9534e@akstcacademiascorunamnsdgs> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1158 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea PPYH Aggressively Pursues Hong Kong Real Estate Market! 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From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 09:21:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IesXo-0006Ak-Fp for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:21:12 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IesXc-0006kr-3D for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:21:06 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98Cv8Mh038765 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 05:57:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98Cv8Ev038764; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 05:57:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from www2.futureware.at ([217.19.43.211]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98Cv7Xe038758 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 05:57:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from iang@systemics.com) Received: from zhukov.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www2.futureware.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0673C24F84B; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:57:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <470A2920.2030207@systemics.com> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 14:57:04 +0200 From: Ian G User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rachel Willmer Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> <5cd112870710080426n3d640cf9v95c388789ee0c6df@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5cd112870710080426n3d640cf9v95c388789ee0c6df@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a1852b4f554b02e7e4548cc7928acc1f Rachel Willmer wrote: >> By stopping short of how the sequence of bytes is stored or >> passed, OpenPGP ensures that it is applicable and >> interoperable across a wide range of apps ... just by >> forcing the developers of the apps to agree on a few local >> details. > > "just" ??? Well, like I say, the spec has to stop somewhere. Consider that once you cross the boundary, you enter into the argument of MIME v. Ascii Armour, and that's a never-ending barrel of worms. In fact, it even made an appearance in the recent message from the IETF where there was a ham-fisted and embarrassing attempt to downgrade AA in favour of MIME. Now, this brings up an interesting direction: if you feel that this area should be more standardised, the MIME approach of a separate RFC is a good one. Start a files format RFC. > That argument implies 3 things: > > a) it's acceptable to require every implemention to support each other > implementation as a separate special case Well, no, the spec stops before the application level. Applications will need to do some extra stuff there, and if GnuPG creates a format that can't be read by PGP Inc's email program, then that's an app issue. GnuPG is an app that happens to include an implementation; it's not just an implementation. > b) it's acceptable to require each user to specifiy at the time of > encryption or signing which implementations (not algorithms, or keys, > but implementations!) should be able to parse the result Applications do have that issue to deal with, yes. E.g., PGP Inc's email program can't read the messages in Jabber's chat implementation of OpenPGP ... but that's because it can't read chat, and Jabber clients can't read email! > c) it's acceptable for 2 implementations which support the same set of > algorithms and have the appropriate keys for sharing encrypted or > signed data to say they both have an OpenPGP-conformant application - > but which can't actually share the data. Yes, that's always acceptable. There is no law that says that apps have to communicate, only specifications that say "if you can share these bytes, then we know of no reason you can't communicate." > Am I the only one that thinks this is a flawed argument? I would say you would find many friends in the developer community :) > Surely this should be a fundamental purpose for the standard: for you > to be able to encrypt a file using your implementation, send it to me, > and for me to be able to decrypt it with a different standard. > > Isn't it?? I see it a bit of a pipe-dream. If I can send you an OpenPGP encrypted email that you can decrypt, *guaranteed*, then that also means that OpenPGP has to specify enough of the mail system that it can survive various munging effects. Line-slicing, 7 bit transformations, conversion into different messaging systems like LotusNotes, ISPs inserting adverts in freemail, etc etc ... Ascii Armour was an *attempt* at that, and it works, sort of, but not well enough to be proud of. MIME was another attempt, and it suffers its own set of problems. Neither of these attempts guarantee communicability, they just assist if you are prepared to work with their assumptions. >> A spec would not be able to be so conveniently loose ;) > > As someone who is trying to write a set of interoperability tests for > my own implementation, I'm not sure I quite understand your use of the > word "convenient" here... :-) Right. Literally, your pain is there because OpenPGP threw the problem over the wall, and you're on the other side of that wall. What I'm saying is that the wall is actually in a good place, so please don't throw it back :) > Rachel > > P.S. I can take the argument that says a keyring is different, because > it's local to the app. But surely, not encrypted/signed files??? Hmm.... Consider this delicious example of a signed file: http://webfunds.org/ricardo/contracts/webfunds/BeerVouchers.html What would it mean if there were *two* such sequences in the one file? Does the order matter? Is there any meaning to what comes before or after that data stream? Does the file creation date mean anything? In that example the app benefits from OpenPGP's decision to concentrate on the byte-stream definition. The app then arranges matters locally to extract out the byte-stream and deal with it, knowing that it is dealing with one and only one chunk. In that case, the app certainly ignores any follow-on packets, and/or declares an error, and it certainly doesn't want OpenPGP telling it to expect an endless stream of them. (We could also talk about signed transactional messages being concatonated ... or about Java's J2EE where files are considered not part of the system ... or mobile ... or ...) iang From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 09:23:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IesaG-0002AY-4D for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:23:44 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IesaE-0006y5-L1 for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:23:43 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98D2X5N039535 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:02:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98D2XYP039534; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:02:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from www2.futureware.at ([217.19.43.211]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98D2WDG039527 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:02:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from iang@systemics.com) Received: from zhukov.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www2.futureware.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42CF924F84C; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:02:34 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <470A2A66.2080205@systemics.com> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 15:02:30 +0200 From: Ian G User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Laurie Cc: Rachel Willmer , ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> <470A1E61.4000708@links.org> In-Reply-To: <470A1E61.4000708@links.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Ben Laurie wrote: > I think this entirely misses the point - the question is not how > messages are stored/transmitted, but what an implementation should do > when some unit of storage/transmission contains more than one message. > > It seems entirely reasonable to me that it should be expected to keep > eating messages until there are no messages left to eat, however the > spec does not state that. It seems to me that it could, quite easily. Nope. The decision you are asking for is a semantic one. I.e., what does it mean to have two messages? In a transactional environment, it would be the height of protocol rudeness for OpenPGP to impose a meaning on the messages. That decision lives firmly at the app level. See also that other example in rejoinder to Rachel. iang From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 09:48:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iesxl-0006Yt-7N for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:48:01 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IesxZ-0008BJ-Dv for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:47:52 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98DVKIh042768 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:31:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98DVKiY042767; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:31:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98DVIJ3042751 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:31:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rwillmer@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c10so846724nfd for ; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:31:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=cyW7FAbdbdbtYFerHswxIyTmmcINYXxnoLQF3tBW2fI=; b=lWtfcQPkEtB0QqbHs5GINQboxyXyEcKPD21PXLBpi1QWRbgwNC2yl5I5NmHywB1XCd8bfNkizSpw1wjwgcJv9SYNwVRj26ZRs+6lfj1QIR+u0NtEwGOKBwLowrvWwqVyLS8NZrThDc6lr5nPE+X516NcCwZ4MWDNkt1kUHD7LMg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=N3GGLzbKOSl2m3BYYUAT8jA57sWSL0LlRt3bG4mYJEguxiTi5ng6K3WLEgONCMnn96YgoTUci1zyIlltCL4cRa/QFMj5sOF540OYftePRk2YVOvEmrwAR9LtMnKri5Wq5SOhc4hs7K3lqJOKhlepDWQFTADP+gkUATg8UrLoKyo= Received: by 10.86.70.8 with SMTP id s8mr5153423fga.1191850277743; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.54.8 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cd112870710080631v3d3e43fbued933c827cbbaa3c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:31:17 +0100 From: "Rachel Willmer" To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Anyone up for an OpenPGP Object Format RFC? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 So, if you've been paying attention in the previous thread, you'll gather I think we should have a common standard for file formats for common OpenPGP objects such as encrypted files, signed files, and keyrings. Anyone from the other implementation teams interested in writing an RFC with me to cover this? Rachel From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 09:48:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IesyX-0000dg-P3 for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:48:49 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IesyB-0008GZ-8F for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:48:49 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98DMT7d041870 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:22:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98DMSYu041868; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:22:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from foobar.cs.jhu.edu (foobar.cs.jhu.edu [128.220.13.173]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98DMSxc041860 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:22:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dshaw@jabberwocky.com) Received: from walrus.jabberwocky.com (c-75-69-177-157.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [75.69.177.157]) by foobar.cs.jhu.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l98DMQl24176 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:22:27 -0400 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (grover.jabberwocky.com [172.24.84.28]) by walrus.jabberwocky.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l98DMLig008277 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:22:21 -0400 Received: from grover.jabberwocky.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.14.1/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l98DMJkx027276 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:22:20 -0400 Received: (from dshaw@localhost) by grover.jabberwocky.com (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id l98DMIvR027275 for ietf-openpgp@imc.org; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:22:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:22:17 -0400 From: David Shaw To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? Message-ID: <20071008132217.GA26943@jabberwocky.com> Mail-Followup-To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> OpenPGP: id=99242560; url=http://www.jabberwocky.com/david/keys.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.15 (2007-05-20) Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 10:34:25AM +0100, Rachel Willmer wrote: > > On 08/10/2007, David Shaw wrote: > > > > On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 11:41:25PM +0100, Rachel Willmer wrote: > > > > > > If (d) "out of scope", which spec does define file formats? > > > > > > If the answer is "there isn't one which does", how do we plan to do > > > interoperability between applications which use the OpenPGP packet > > > format? e.g. to transfer Encrypted Messages. > > > > I didn't quite mean "out of scope" in that sense. I meant "the spec > > doesn't mandate it or forbid it, so it's up to the implemention to > > decide." As you saw, GPG doesn't do it. > > It shouldn't be up to the implementation to decide (IMHO). If the goal > of the WG is "to provide IETF standards for the algorithms and formats > of PGP processed objects", then surely some standard file formats > should be defined [*] : e.g. keyring, encrypted file, signed file, > etc. I think the spec does define this. It defines all of those items that you mention in the grammar in section 11.3. Any OpenPGP-compliant application should be able to write such a message in such a way that any other OpenPGP-complaint application can read it, or one or both of the implementations aren't OpenPGP compliant. What the spec doesn't define is whether an application must process an "OpenPGP Message, OpenPGP Message" -- two messages concatenated together. There is an assumption in the spec that a single stream contains a single message, and in fact there are some legal ways to encode data that actually require a single stream to contain a single message. This doesn't mean that an application can't read concatenated messages (when possible) if it chooses to, of course, though it should be careful about generating them, as there is no guarantee that the recipient can read them. David From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 09:53:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iet2z-0004pU-22 for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:53:25 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iet2n-0008SF-Qq for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:53:16 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98DVa8T042800 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:31:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98DVao5042799; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:31:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98DVYej042787 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:31:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ben@links.org) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B0133C45; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:31:34 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <470A3139.7060808@links.org> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 14:31:37 +0100 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070326 Thunderbird/2.0.0.0 Mnenhy/0.7.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian G CC: Rachel Willmer , ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> <5cd112870710080426n3d640cf9v95c388789ee0c6df@mail.gmail.com> <470A2920.2030207@systemics.com> In-Reply-To: <470A2920.2030207@systemics.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Ian G wrote: > Hmm.... Consider this delicious example of a signed file: > > http://webfunds.org/ricardo/contracts/webfunds/BeerVouchers.html > > What would it mean if there were *two* such sequences in the one file? It would mean there were two signed messages in that file. > Does the order matter? Is there any meaning to what comes before or > after that data stream? Does the file creation date mean anything? These questions are beyond the scope of OpenPGP. Also, I might as well ask the same questions about two separate files with messages in. For example, if I follow this URL http://webfunds.org/ricardo/contracts/webfunds/, there appear to be four such messages linked. Does the order matter? blah, blah... > In that example the app benefits from OpenPGP's decision to concentrate > on the byte-stream definition. The app then arranges matters locally to > extract out the byte-stream and deal with it, knowing that it is dealing > with one and only one chunk. In that case, the app certainly ignores > any follow-on packets, and/or declares an error, and it certainly > doesn't want OpenPGP telling it to expect an endless stream of them. The app is, of course, free to say "I expect a single OpenPGP message per file". That doesn't mean the spec can't permit multiple messages per file. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.links.org/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 10:06:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IetFm-00044J-L9 for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:06:38 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IetFh-0000OA-Bv for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:06:34 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98DYEi1042965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:34:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98DYEo8042964; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:34:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98DYCso042958 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:34:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rwillmer@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c10so847322nfd for ; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:34:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=Uknt9fI2hugWBHUQ0colMO4cSaFLWdV9BksbbMPafAo=; b=W3KXj9n1zCGM8BKJqk0paLW6lXrXWBDLn76f2SMujd9U937mqDdVSvoCqY/s52b0cbOF96rSC5j7JU8SJlWXW83TawYp9QjeM91y0t0d6suz936KVvCZn2proqA6O7QVu7dmtBgv8MUFdtZ7VcsH2NdwDs0zvKypsRyhqyZBs88= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=IIITJGOAl6baqyXV8d6+6CaMDT6AcAYwNr3hbffejj/my7MHKcf6aLdNeH4sV/iiHCRHy+c6P9x8zkBpE9AT1gbMpBYAwrpCz1RoUV2ICL9gUOZ1Dv1VsW+BN+sSCjEjRpCGxqL6+C464hY7fFUR0fqXgck5qDatR04QXRHYNnM= Received: by 10.86.28.5 with SMTP id b5mr5112603fgb.1191850047427; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.54.8 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cd112870710080627v65324501tda123ad3e4b9e51f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:27:27 +0100 From: "Rachel Willmer" To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? In-Reply-To: <470A2920.2030207@systemics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> <5cd112870710080426n3d640cf9v95c388789ee0c6df@mail.gmail.com> <470A2920.2030207@systemics.com> Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 On 08/10/2007, Ian G wrote: > Well, like I say, the spec has to stop somewhere. The spec for a single message should only define how a single message is structured, I agree. No complaints with RFC2440 in that regard. But... > Well, no, the spec stops before the application level. > Applications will need to do some extra stuff there, and if > GnuPG creates a format that can't be read by PGP Inc's email > program, then that's an app issue. ... if 2 apps supporting the same standard (and I mean OpenPGP in its wider sense, not just RFC2440) which support the same set of algorithms and suitable keys, can't actually talk to each other, then I'm not sure what the point of the standard is. The analogy would be if we'd defined the format of a SMTP mail message, but left it up to individual developers as to how 2 mail servers actually talked to each other. ("oh, that's just an application issue....") > Applications do have that issue to deal with, yes. > E.g., PGP Inc's email program can't read the messages in > Jabber's chat implementation of OpenPGP ... but that's > because it can't read chat, and Jabber clients can't read email! By current rules, 2 Jabber clients which both support OpenPGP wouldn't necessarily be able to talk to each other unless they use the same implementation.... Rachel From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 10:21:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IetUD-0004dd-GQ for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:21:33 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IetU4-0000jT-6N for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:21:25 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98DvJxS044969 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:57:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98DvJKK044968; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:57:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (BISCAYNE-ONE-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.80]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98DvGZO044961 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:57:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from warlord@MIT.EDU) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.9.2) with ESMTP id l98DvFk6006295; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from w92-130-webmail-4.mit.edu (W92-130-WEBMAIL-4.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.135]) ) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id l98Dv45k000010; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by w92-130-webmail-4.mit.edu (8.12.4) id l98Dv4fb016477; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:57:04 -0400 Received: from PGPDEV.IHTFP.ORG (PGPDEV.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.23]) (User authenticated as warlord@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by webmail.mit.edu (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:57:04 -0400 Message-ID: <20071008095704.xrrhusk6a3so0soo@webmail.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:57:04 -0400 From: Derek Atkins To: David Shaw Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <20071008132217.GA26943@jabberwocky.com> In-Reply-To: <20071008132217.GA26943@jabberwocky.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.3) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.00 Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Quoting David Shaw : > I think the spec does define this. It defines all of those items that > you mention in the grammar in section 11.3. Any OpenPGP-compliant > application should be able to write such a message in such a way that > any other OpenPGP-complaint application can read it, or one or both of > the implementations aren't OpenPGP compliant. > > What the spec doesn't define is whether an application must process an > "OpenPGP Message, OpenPGP Message" -- two messages concatenated > together. There is an assumption in the spec that a single stream > contains a single message, and in fact there are some legal ways to > encode data that actually require a single stream to contain a single > message. > > This doesn't mean that an application can't read concatenated messages > (when possible) if it chooses to, of course, though it should be > careful about generating them, as there is no guarantee that the > recipient can read them. I know for a fact that the PGP implementation of OpenPGP can certainly handle multiple ascii-armored messages in a single "file". But I'm pretty sure that it will NOT handle multiple "binary" messages in a single "file". > David -derek -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH warlord@MIT.EDU PGP key available From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 10:25:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IetY4-0007Pj-Eh for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:25:32 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IetY3-0000qF-5l for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:25:32 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98DvYnr044999 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:57:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98DvYfx044998; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:57:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.184]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98DvUnn044989 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:57:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rwillmer@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c10so852237nfd for ; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:57:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=mz3jy9xEqjOO3wpCKyOjFfoqepxmMkUgErpPiaO1tCM=; b=qpeB/YLYAKG1K1o//tX3HLtwh7Hd0RZVBit20NcmKNeGSSyx6h6V4si9S50GY8vpUFluBHBjezrhXRA1LRp90C1P2V6kR9567NfWVDIjAhTZ7QK0nKz4a/66SGhx+ABCcPD8w/cfRsf4bPv6KGWwCOMBl7S4P2+6fHviALALb3g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UkO94nF4j3JuewuzXhUHHx5oAzD+62KGDayXz1QnVFG5eeyTGiNKH+kX9412hH56qJN9tUe1MVSL3hdQ4CXCgIWABBGOMwZUZbJhhHsYnWsvka6UTnKqcK7FlmQKz54YSHfCgOcBugb94BurmhjsFYiDUVnuLnWnyXOb0gxGRqI= Received: by 10.86.81.8 with SMTP id e8mr5130401fgb.1191851850304; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.54.8 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cd112870710080657u639ba704g947bf4208262343e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:57:30 +0100 From: "Rachel Willmer" To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? In-Reply-To: <20071008132217.GA26943@jabberwocky.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <20071008132217.GA26943@jabberwocky.com> Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 > I think the spec does define this. It defines all of those items that > you mention in the grammar in section 11.3. Any OpenPGP-compliant > application should be able to write such a message in such a way that > any other OpenPGP-complaint application can read it, or one or both of > the implementations aren't OpenPGP compliant. > > What the spec doesn't define is whether an application must process an > "OpenPGP Message, OpenPGP Message" -- two messages concatenated > together. There is an assumption in the spec that a single stream > contains a single message, If that is intended, it should be explicitly stated, IMHO. And if that is the case, then ok, I can get back to writing test cases, and forget about writing RFCs. If it is stated somewhere and I've missed it, can you point me at the reference please? ta Rachel From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 10:49:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IetvX-0003zI-DD for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:49:47 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IetvS-0001Kb-0j for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:49:43 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98EQnnm047901 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:26:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98EQnAD047900; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:26:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (BISCAYNE-ONE-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.80]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98EQl5G047892 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:26:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from warlord@MIT.EDU) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.9.2) with ESMTP id l98EQiPR018940; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from w92-130-webmail-4.mit.edu (W92-130-WEBMAIL-4.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.135]) ) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id l98EQhos005360; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by w92-130-webmail-4.mit.edu (8.12.4) id l98EQhMO020100; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:26:43 -0400 Received: from PGPDEV.IHTFP.ORG (PGPDEV.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.23]) (User authenticated as warlord@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by webmail.mit.edu (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:26:43 -0400 Message-ID: <20071008102643.lnynwaqj0gg8w00c@webmail.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:26:43 -0400 From: Derek Atkins To: Rachel Willmer Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> <5cd112870710080426n3d640cf9v95c388789ee0c6df@mail.gmail.com> <470A2920.2030207@systemics.com> <5cd112870710080627v65324501tda123ad3e4b9e51f@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5cd112870710080627v65324501tda123ad3e4b9e51f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.3) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.00 Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Quoting Rachel Willmer : > By current rules, 2 Jabber clients which both support OpenPGP wouldn't > necessarily be able to talk to each other unless they use the same > implementation.... That's not at all true. The Jabber/OpenPGP integration rules (which do exist, by the way!) specify the message boundaries outside of the OpenPGP work. In other words the jabber specification talks about how to break apart the XML stream into multiple OpenPGP messages, and then you just need to feed each "message" into your OpenPGP processor separately. As an implementor (chair hat not on) I really don't think we need a general draft to specify how to frame multiple OpenPGP messages. I think that the application using OpenPGP can define how it wants to frame messages (just like how Jabber specifies the message framing). RFC2440 and 2440bis already have a framing algorithm, called Ascii Armor, which can let you store multiple OpenPGP messages into a single file. So I just don't really see the need. As the chair, however, I'm amenable to adding the work if there is a consensus that such work is actually required. > Rachel -derek -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH warlord@MIT.EDU PGP key available From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 11:04:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeuA7-0007UP-Pf for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:04:51 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ieu9y-0001jx-G7 for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:04:43 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98EbUsH049029 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:37:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98EbUSD049028; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:37:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.links.org (mail.links.org [217.155.92.109]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98EbSZ9049018 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:37:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ben@links.org) Received: from [193.133.15.218] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.links.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FAF33C1D; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:37:27 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <470A40AA.2090803@links.org> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 15:37:30 +0100 From: Ben Laurie User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070326 Thunderbird/2.0.0.0 Mnenhy/0.7.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian G CC: Rachel Willmer , ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> <470A1E61.4000708@links.org> <470A2A66.2080205@systemics.com> In-Reply-To: <470A2A66.2080205@systemics.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Ian G wrote: > > Ben Laurie wrote: > >> I think this entirely misses the point - the question is not how >> messages are stored/transmitted, but what an implementation should do >> when some unit of storage/transmission contains more than one message. >> >> It seems entirely reasonable to me that it should be expected to keep >> eating messages until there are no messages left to eat, however the >> spec does not state that. It seems to me that it could, quite easily. > > > Nope. > > The decision you are asking for is a semantic one. I.e., what does it > mean to have two messages? In a transactional environment, it would be > the height of protocol rudeness for OpenPGP to impose a meaning on the > messages. That decision lives firmly at the app level. I am not arguing with that. However, I am not asking for any semantic interpretation from, say, GPG, which does not really do semantics. > See also that other example in rejoinder to Rachel. In which I agree that it is up to the application to interpret the meaning of having two signed messages in one file. Or, indeed, in having two signed messages in two files. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.links.org/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From sfinlr@bpbovis.com Mon Oct 08 11:10:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeuFY-0002eA-Hj; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:10:29 -0400 Received: from [85.102.244.227] (helo=dsl85-102-62691.ttnet.net.tr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeuFH-0001uU-NM; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:10:13 -0400 Received: from [85.102.244.227] by uklon01sd01.lendlease.com; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 17:10:12 +0200 From: "Jimmy Holloway" To: Subject: Your needs Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 17:10:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: Aca6QUQLA09KLEESE6R7BPI76M7GS5== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2663 Message-ID: <01c809bd$52cb1910$e3f46655@sfinlr> X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Your One stop shop for all of your software needs. Today price off: Windows XP Professional with SP2 only $49.95 Macromedia Studio 8 only $99.95 World-famous vendors: MicroSoft, Adobe, Symantec and others. http://sfsucvi.goldsoftshop.com From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 11:28:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeuXN-0003do-2B for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:28:53 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeuXE-0002P2-Tu for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:28:47 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98F0AZY051066 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 08:00:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98F0Aq5051065; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 08:00:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.hushmail.com (smtp3.hushmail.com [65.39.178.135]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98F09op051057 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 08:00:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from vedaal@hush.com) Received: from smtp3.hushmail.com (localhost.hush.com [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.hushmail.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 049BE5C028 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:00:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailserver8.hushmail.com (mailserver8.hushmail.com [65.39.178.61]) by smtp3.hushmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:00:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mailserver8.hushmail.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 32931DA820; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:00:07 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:00:04 -0400 To: Cc: Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? From: Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-Id: <20071008150007.32931DA820@mailserver8.hushmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3a4bc66230659131057bb68ed51598f8 On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:27:27 -0400 Rachel Willmer wrote: >On 08/10/2007, Ian G wrote: >> Well, like I say, the spec has to stop somewhere. >... if 2 apps supporting the same standard (and I mean OpenPGP in >its >wider sense, not just RFC2440) which support the same set of >algorithms and suitable keys, can't actually talk to each other, >then >I'm not sure what the point of the standard is. part of the issue is that while there is an open pgp standard, there are applications that are more liberal in what is 'acceptable', and such differences in 'acceptance tolerance' may allow for one application to be able to decrypt a message while the other cannot here is one such trivial example of an encrypted message, and the keypair ?;^)-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- comment: encrypted to aaaa1 qANQR1DBwEwDfcQnSvkBVJYBCAC7wNF8JslX1QT3OOOnzGSEfb5+kqjBknsboyVi g6vM0nGAhv8Gyr6kbgBU4tEd9naO046t5Nrn41m5o8uIaGqCnSIsqPkazHKL3ksn 4eUvKRdvib+/rNMRzLmHjIOW+qiAOekzKcx2qMRJjcgjglZHIybHRTbvixD8rYFn GOs0pg9dQU3xYaHy5i7GCbg6K+N2CBXtBz9QTo4pU6mj6iUyGswO2xu0fqxmfJmi z+SjfhETu/BzEhQJH5X8JCoPMh33Q/FHMtSkTYj9NioFHE60fknPWg69afIYip+Q 8L7TTT9ZAm9yzq8L9QJUQttZ1Pu5zXwnf9PfIQ5n9ErmDwHm0kIBuaX+JW6I3JVO qdb9J0GXfqAjOIFQqWjWUG1n2PftBy4teKKRP6BvUzeC8OyIRQRVp4HYrkHpjKMj FDqcahUq6Rg= =nTQP -----END PGP MESSAGE----- -----BEGIN PGP PRIVATE KEY BLOCK----- comment: passphrase: aaaa1 lQO8BEOPWrMBCADVn3tcdnQh4CDJSm4wW3IseEh2TsC2NDEI+Z27zsJeZQ2vl77w g8DIRPZ1agNqG4bLbTk7Vz83Pt0YpJVgKTGEZqxViQZJn0kXHhN5g+UnVVrxUY30 fKbk0f+iFFF1cgMMLs1k6fYdum6QaTnI4VqRvUqgfNIw3UtVpLc2jmTPUcH07Cga nEWTSaT9XX54t5EZ2ThIUOn8yak9Xlgv8PFlsMfeMe9pMfbPJULPlczmIkazMtVC tWLqnt8ITnp5+fNIgORVlWp34u8lHZuIuKu5MrlWHciAgvIpJ80iVMU9teQj4kgk wq5X+X+sPxCfSHRItvjXu5XEylsTL8RWmGilAAYp/gIDCMk6j3/xQ5b1YD/zG1oX QWj3ZEH+/Sn8zn2Suw3XvbZHae08kW9Kgd6unf9NuUj69kMNYUb1uLNCrfPh2CcT F/7ux3M0vOZuIfS3QclTQOYxDPUJanRjdTXisQhDQdrVnEnxZR8BMjaO8j/vhjKk cnlbkaN1/A+BynFe4jgSngm176rtn5UfY4MuNXVvmo4wyESaV0lyaypkivvqoNKV UfvM3ZiGZowGnN8UnZPAWspa3qKE/2x40hkyiJnbilZUCytxYOj822KsJs6Qzaby o8YBpcKE5it9WiJO6MzrqZXGWTwAbrrpV4jcM2N7hgSW8XojE6xQzSdBYHwDaFCv 3mp7wEXDTG6cC3+5YhKZD1radVzQF1Cp2L1h6lny1ipVooTDeSv5S3r793NQJoVD rzL7p5+VdOgeoHfr00PypMyF6RRsEdnKwOQ6QN0fesAh/2DeOU7EBJyq0VOL23rO AwV0QcsDtNPWZ5fq3NTl7/JC5Oh4m75iVod0ESQETHTB67kaoeKzmsJQ3Gp+PoFV AN4DWKXRO2/S+efeu8CRo/0ESaLdxxv517w/d8SXVqkRSmKYjyIvXmQOSIXh1EIa br9pztQgT+pwozDp3JoShgJec5kwy7+wsFr1tjpEsbgwUsT8my9NqA+IAe2mI8U4 pxA50LpF0DYSdu0gj7oCBsJRoH9ODQu3EdcGVjiJVjCy+hKGDq9JutsKfsqeH5VF rquftjep34jdTOSiSvWrTrunuO4190A0b0YQjfa13nbGCczA+6vNa87QuRTzSo78 UgVBZg4pp2GhgIi+MpAEQDWxYb44f840aOP7rhYRcvQE8GJ8jt8BQiVOx92ENPP4 /t5IKGg+OiK2i5U5NToEHLNeGqwR10oKOLh40wcaAE7KvETShu6rXrVI6EYMTWO0 FmFhYWExIDxhYWFhMUBrZXkudGVzdD4= =hWAG -----END PGP PRIVATE KEY BLOCK----- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQELBEOPWrMBCADVn3tcdnQh4CDJSm4wW3IseEh2TsC2NDEI+Z27zsJeZQ2vl77w g8DIRPZ1agNqG4bLbTk7Vz83Pt0YpJVgKTGEZqxViQZJn0kXHhN5g+UnVVrxUY30 fKbk0f+iFFF1cgMMLs1k6fYdum6QaTnI4VqRvUqgfNIw3UtVpLc2jmTPUcH07Cga nEWTSaT9XX54t5EZ2ThIUOn8yak9Xlgv8PFlsMfeMe9pMfbPJULPlczmIkazMtVC tWLqnt8ITnp5+fNIgORVlWp34u8lHZuIuKu5MrlWHciAgvIpJ80iVMU9teQj4kgk wq5X+X+sPxCfSHRItvjXu5XEylsTL8RWmGilAAYptBZhYWFhMSA8YWFhYTFAa2V5 LnRlc3Q+iQE3BBMBAgAhBQJDj1qzAhsPBwsJCAcDAgEEFQIIAwQWAgMBAh4BAheA AAoJEH3EJ0r5AVSWVlAIAJj0djWpOS4NH0sILbgkDDnzyIyZvgFyziNo9Kd42oXO pT9McnYGQTiqLMLU+s0Ffx8rbPN6yqhW8jHqrce78IGk5WWI0E24mhTdTVz84p4x VSwjYjw7MnpinijKKrpTH5EvEa6JFKwKHLsmFLCSjcF1GyxHC022xim4SO1UYsvt tn04m8+Oa3n9gLZz3e1lZijDzhs+2+O0fKB1gbAItb15s9Kg1QGe5mHRIyxi9SdY dstAs6bUqXPU/BRbtqap2+X2CO9Dd1y3CN7xmQRcavDNg0hzuIhibEBq7reB9EmA er/aK8pkJ+JqvD9Lp6wXq/jDQ82IOE+AZJkQDsBdFBY= =WUlP -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- PGP is tolerant of the question mark and smiley in front of the armor heading, and decrypts it GnuPG considers it an improper armor heading and stops attempts at further decryption (to be fair, PGP does not generate the encrypted message with the altered armor heading, but in the past, has generated long statements in the version line, which did cause 'improper heading' error messages when wrapped to a separate line) so, a possible way of dealing with this, might be to have applications have a 'default mode' where whatever is generated is 'within the letter of the law' of the standard, and an 'expert mode' to allow for special features that might be convenient to a user or co-application, with the understanding that other applications might not be able to process messages done in that mode (btw, have lots of examples of similar 'oddities' in case anyone is interested) vedaal -- Get free information on the latest in steel buildings. http://tagline.hushmail.com/fc/Ioyw6h4esioukoaYn9U0yF5my5fHeIP5xZVLPyptLjzPrFUeO9s2fB/ From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 12:26:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IevRR-0006v4-Ih for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:26:49 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IevRC-000451-KV for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:26:40 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98Fq3UA056256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 08:52:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98Fq3X5056255; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 08:52:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yancy.b70.net (yancy.pkiclue.com [209.172.115.117]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98Fq23D056248 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 08:52:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rodney@canola-jones.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by yancy.b70.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25228 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:58:19 -0700 Message-ID: <470A521E.9010907@canola-jones.com> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:51:58 -0700 From: Rodney Thayer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> <470A1E61.4000708@links.org> <470A2A66.2080205@systemics.com> <470A40AA.2090803@links.org> In-Reply-To: <470A40AA.2090803@links.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Ben Laurie wrote: > Ian G wrote: >> Ben Laurie wrote: ...and Derek Atkins wrote, and and and... I have a question. Back to Rachel's original point - she seems to have come up with a non-interoperability case with GnuPG. Is something wrong? Is this a situation where, in a perfect world, there would have been more GPG documentation or more/more verbose instrumentation? Is there a section of (the spec or something else) that the other implementation interpreted "wrong" or "different". As I recall there's still a body of "genetically separate implementations" - is there any experience with this 'artifact' happening before? From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 08 13:06:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iew3s-00020F-EY for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 13:06:32 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iew3m-0006AR-5g for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 13:06:27 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98GlUCT061730 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:47:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l98GlUjj061729; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:47:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yancy.b70.net (yancy.pkiclue.com [209.172.115.117]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l98GlTHq061721 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:47:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rodney@canola-jones.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by yancy.b70.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25388 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:53:45 -0700 Message-ID: <470A5F1C.6020304@canola-jones.com> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:47:24 -0700 From: Rodney Thayer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> In-Reply-To: <470A0880.5050405@systemics.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Ian G wrote: > The architectural imperative here is that the definition has to stop > somewhere. I think there are many architectural imperatives here. "get the rfc out" is one, "don't spawn non-interoperable implementations" is another. "the definition has to stop somewhere" I would have said as "we wish the definition to be as precise as we can so as to ensure the definition stops somewhere", but, yeah, that too... 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http://www.bobmafia.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80C45.DD7331D0-- From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 12 03:32:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgF0M-0000I5-DY for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 03:32:18 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgF0B-00088W-At for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 03:32:13 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l9C6cfCs012116 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:38:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l9C6cfSA012115; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:38:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from www2.futureware.at ([217.19.43.211]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l9C6cd3B012106 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:38:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from iang@systemics.com) Received: from zhukov.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www2.futureware.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DFEA274091; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:38:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <470F1674.4030402@systemics.com> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:38:44 +0200 From: Ian G User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rachel Willmer Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <20071008132217.GA26943@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080657u639ba704g947bf4208262343e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5cd112870710080657u639ba704g947bf4208262343e@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Rachel Willmer wrote: >> I think the spec does define this. It defines all of those items that >> you mention in the grammar in section 11.3. Any OpenPGP-compliant >> application should be able to write such a message in such a way that >> any other OpenPGP-complaint application can read it, or one or both of >> the implementations aren't OpenPGP compliant. >> >> What the spec doesn't define is whether an application must process an >> "OpenPGP Message, OpenPGP Message" -- two messages concatenated >> together. There is an assumption in the spec that a single stream >> contains a single message, > > If that is intended, it should be explicitly stated, IMHO. Just in an effort to get closure on this issue, I see it as "undefined." That is, it is strictly undefined whether messages can be concatonated. This makes sense to me, as how the app packages these messages up and ships them is ... undefined, including in the trivial case of files containing concatonations. > And if that is the case, then ok, I can get back to writing test > cases, and forget about writing RFCs. > > If it is stated somewhere and I've missed it, can you point me at the > reference please? Now, maybe the spec should say that the issue is undefined, I'm not sure. 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Aca6Q1O1QVMKZZS1LPAOKJC0NNLG2H== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Message-ID: <01c80f14$20b53c10$994956be@crswemkrrfx> X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 64592953d6410e1f725ee21266e2f396 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C80F14.20B53C10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C80F14.20B53C10" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C80F14.20B53C10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- British Prime Minister Gordon Brown arrived in Baghdad on Tuesday for meetings with Iraqi government officials, the British Embassy in Baghdad said. This is Brown's first visit to Iraq since becoming prime minister in June. The visit comes as unconfirmed reports suggestedBrown was considering a reduction in the number of British troops in the southern Iraqi city of Basra. Reports said as many as 2,000 troops could be home by the spring, according to the British Press Association. The Basra contingent could fall to little over 3,000 in the next six months, the PA reported, citing The Daily Telegraph newspaper. "Sometime during the time she went into custody, she went into medical distress," he said. Carol Ann Gotbaum may have accidentally strangled herself while trying to get out of her handcuffs, Phoenix Police Department spokesman Sgt. Andy Hill said Saturday. "The Nikkei appears to be in a gradual uptrend now," Nobuyuki Nagamorim, a technical analyst at Unimat Yamamaru Securities, told The Associated Press. "The degree of recovery in trading volume will largely decide how high the market can go," he said. Allen said he never witnessed Stiles physically assault anyone. "But I have seen him verbally and mentally assault many people," Allen told CNN. "He's good with mind games. He's good at twisting people's realities and manipulating people." CNN and other news organizations did so until the child was found, and De Meo asked media to stop showing the picture. "According to investigators, it appeared as though Ms. Gotbaum had possibly tried to manipulate the handcuffs from behind her to the front, got tangled up in the process, and they ended up around her neck area," he said. Witnesses told police that Gotbaum was "yelling and screaming" and running through the terminal Friday. She was arrested for disorderly conduct. Gotbaum was the mother of three young children and the daughter-in-law of longtime New York City Public Advocate Betsy Gotbaum. A spokeswoman for the Maricopa County medical examiner said an autopsy would be conducted Monday morning. While handcuffed, the New Yorker became "disruptive" and she was taken to a holding room, where she was left alone, Hill told CNN affiliate KTVK. (CNN) -- Darren Tuck, the man who gave police a tape depicting the rape of a 3-year-old girl, turned himself in Sunday to Nye County, Nevada, authorities. "The mother has cooperated with us," De Meo said. "We believe that the mother was not aware of anything that went on with this young girl. It was very sad for her to find this out." Authorities have identified Chester A. Stiles, 37, as the suspect in the tape. A resident of Pahrump, Nevada, he remains at-large, De Meo said. Pahrump is about 60 miles west of Las Vegas. Investigators said officers went to check on her five to 10 minutes later. Police policy requires that be done every 15 minutes. Stiles was a distant friend of the girl's family, De Meo said. Finding Gotbaum "unconscious and not breathing," Hill said, officers performed CPR. Someone close to Stiles told investigators Stiles is a "survivalist type" and always carries a weapon, Nye County District Attorney Bob Beckett said. Betsy Gotbaum called Carol Ann Gotbaum "a wonderful, wonderful person" and a great mother. She said the family was dealing with the situation "the best way we can." Todd Allen, a Las Vegas resident, told CNN he once lived with the girl from the video and her mother. He said he recognizes his old apartment from scenes in the video. He said he knows the suspect because Allen's mother dated Stiles and the couple spent time together at Allen's apartment. Watch Allen describe Stiles and the girl � Allen said nobody realized the child had been abused. "She's what you'd expect a little girl in elementary school to be like," he said. "You would never know something like that happened. Ever." The Dow Jones industrial average added nearly 192 points to end at an all-time high of 14,087.55 points on Monday amid hopes that banks have put the worst of the recent 'credit crunch' behind them and expectations that the Federal Reserve will continue to cut interest rates. The tech-dominated Nasdaq also gained 1.5 percent for its highest close since February 2001 while the S&P 500 gained 1.3 percent. "You're seeing a continuation of the recent momentum," said Chris Johnson, CEO of Johnson Research Group. "It becomes a psychological phenomenon. Investors know that there are inherent risks in the market, but at the same time, they're rationalizing any bad news." ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C80F14.20B53C10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- British Prime Minister Gordon Brown arri= ved in Baghdad on Tuesday for meetings with Iraqi government officials, t= he British Embassy in Baghdad said.

This is Brown's first visit to Iraq since becoming prime minister in = June.

The visit comes as unconfirmed reports suggestedBrown was considering= a reduction in the number of British troops in the southern Iraqi city o= f Basra. Reports said as many as 2,000 troops could be home by the spring= , according to the British Press Association. The Basra contingent could = fall to little over 3,000 in the next six months, the PA reported, citing= The Daily Telegraph newspaper.

"Sometime during the time she went into custody, she went into medica= l distress," he said.

Carol Ann Gotbaum may have accidentally strangled herself while tryin= g to get out of her handcuffs, Phoenix Police Department spokesman Sgt. A= ndy Hill said Saturday.

"The Nikkei appears to be in a gradual uptrend now," Nobuyuki Nagamor= im, a technical analyst at Unimat Yamamaru Securities, told The Associate= d Press.

"The degree of recovery in trading volume will largely decide how hig= h the market can go," he said.

Allen said he never witnessed Stiles physically assault anyone.

"But I have seen him verbally and mentally assault many people," Alle= n told CNN. "He's good with mind games. He's good at twisting people's re= alities and manipulating people."

CNN and other news organizations did so until the child was found, an= d De Meo asked media to stop showing the picture.

"According to investigators, it appeared as though Ms. Gotbaum had po= ssibly tried to manipulate the handcuffs from behind her to the front, go= t tangled up in the process, and they ended up around her neck area," he = said.

Witnesses told police that Gotbaum was "yelling and screaming" and ru= nning through the terminal Friday. She was arrested for disorderly conduc= t.

Gotbaum was the mother of three young children and the daughter-in-la= w of longtime New York City Public Advocate Betsy Gotbaum.

A spokeswoman for the Maricopa County medical examiner said an autops= y would be conducted Monday morning.

While handcuffed, the New Yorker became "disruptive" and she was take= n to a holding room, where she was left alone, Hill told CNN affiliate KT= VK.

(CNN) -- Darren Tuck, the man who gave police a tape depicting th= e rape of a 3-year-old girl, turned himself in Sunday to Nye County, Neva= da, authorities.

"The mother has cooperated with us," De Meo said. "We believe that th= e mother was not aware of anything that went on with this young girl. It = was very sad for her to find this out."

Authorities have identified Chester A. Stiles, 37, as the suspect in = the tape. A resident of Pahrump, Nevada, he remains at-large, De Meo sai= d. Pahrump is about 60 miles west of Las Vegas.

Investigators said officers went to check on her five to 10 minutes l= ater. Police policy requires that be done every 15 minutes.

St= iles was a distant friend of the girl's family, De Meo said.

Finding Gotbaum "unconscious and not breathing," Hill said, officers = performed CPR.

Someone close to Stiles told investigators Stiles is a "survivalist t= ype" and always carries a weapon, Nye County District Attorney Bob Becket= t said.

Betsy Gotbaum called Carol Ann Gotbaum "a wonderful, wonderful person= " and a great mother. She said the family was dealing with the situation = "the best way we can."

Todd Allen, a Las Vegas resident, told CNN he once lived with the g= irl from the video and her mother. He said he recognizes his old apartmen= t from scenes in the video. He said he knows the suspect because Allen's = mother dated Stiles and the couple spent time together at Allen's apartme= nt. Watch Allen describe Stiles and the girl =BB

Allen said nobody realized the child had been abused.

"She's what you'd expect a little girl in elementary school to be lik= e," he said. "You would never know something like that happened. Ever."

The Dow Jones industrial average added nearly 192 points to end at an= all-time high of 14,087.55 points on Monday amid hopes that banks have p= ut the worst of the recent 'credit crunch' behind them and expectations t= hat the Federal Reserve will continue to cut interest rates.

The tech-dominated Nasdaq also gained 1.5 percent for its highest clo= se since February 2001 while the S&P 500 gained 1.3 percent.

"You're seeing a continuation of the recent momentum," said Chris Joh= nson, CEO of Johnson Research Group.

"It becomes a psychological phenomenon. Investors know that there are= inherent risks in the market, but at the same time, they're rationalizin= g any bad news."

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------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C8125E.1DA382A0-- From JERMAINEMelan@FUTURATRAVEL.COM Fri Oct 19 13:08:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IivL2-0006qM-5K for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:08:44 -0400 Received: from [151.57.206.52] (helo=[151.57.206.52]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IivL1-00042n-F1 for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:08:44 -0400 Received: from hp ([132.159.151.129]:23818 "EHLO hp" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [151.57.206.52] with ESMTP id S22CTFHYAHXZPTUW (ORCPT ); Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:09:10 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c81272$b393aab0$34ce3997@hp> From: "JERMAINE Melan" To: Subject: seuqitan Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:08:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C81283.771C7AB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C81283.771C7AB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Monday update. Symb: T A D F (Tactical Air Defense Services) Tactical Air Defense Services (TADS), a leading provider of tactical = aviation training and services to the United States and Allied Nations, has = quietly positioned itself to utilize a fleet of the most advanced fighter jets = and aerial refueling tankers in the world for military aviation training = needs. Those who get in now are likely to see profits soar through the = stratosphere. Headquartered at the Grayson County Airport in Denison, Texas =96 formerly the Perrin Air Force Base =96 Tactical Air Defense has the = capability to provide clients with the most comprehensive logistical, repair, and = aircraft training support available. TADS IS AS CLOSE AS IT COMES TO A SUREFIRE = MONEY-MAKER. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C81283.771C7AB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Monday update.

Symb: T A D F (Tactical Air Defense = Services)

Tactical Air Defense Services (TADS), a = leading provider=20 of tactical aviation

training and services to the United States and = Allied=20 Nations, has quietly

positioned itself to utilize a fleet of the = most=20 advanced fighter jets and

aerial refueling tankers in the world for = military=20 aviation training needs.

Those who get in now are likely to see profits = soar=20 through the stratosphere.

Headquartered at the Grayson County Airport in = Denison,=20 Texas =96

formerly the Perrin Air Force Base =96 = Tactical Air=20 Defense has the capability

to provide clients with the most comprehensive = logistical, repair, and aircraft

training support available. TADS IS AS CLOSE = AS IT=20 COMES TO A SUREFIRE MONEY-MAKER.

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C81283.771C7AB0-- From Lempert@hedobv.nl Fri Oct 19 22:41:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ij4H2-0003cE-Hq for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:41:12 -0400 Received: from [62.148.89.66] (helo=[62.148.89.66]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ij4Gb-0006Lf-BD for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:40:45 -0400 Received: from PROBA ([104.133.183.123] helo=PROBA) by [62.148.89.66] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1SKBfF-000KTF-tt for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 03:38:35 +0200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 03:38:16 +0200 From: "Gaurav Lempert" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: openpgp-archive@ietf.org Subject: hinoko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea hey baby openpgp-archive ever think shes faking? make it the real deal every time http://keflee.com/ Gaurav Lempert From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 20 22:41:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjQkV-0007e4-L0 for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:41:07 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjQkF-00033U-QH for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:40:59 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l9L2JSva061790 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:19:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l9L2JSA3061789; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:19:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.ihtfp.org (MAIL.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.6]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l9L2JPO0061766 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:19:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from derek@ihtfp.com) Received: from pgpdev.ihtfp.org (nsc69.38.10-97.newsouth.net [69.38.10.97]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "cliodev.ihtfp.com", Issuer "IHTFP Consulting Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by mail.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B54BD8568; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from warlord@localhost) by pgpdev.ihtfp.org (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id l9KMiFvi005638; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:44:15 -0400 To: javier ader Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Errata in rfc2440bis-22.txt References: <46F35E6B.6060702@gmail.com> From: Derek Atkins Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:44:14 -0400 In-Reply-To: <46F35E6B.6060702@gmail.com> (javier ader's message of "Fri\, 21 Sep 2007 03\:02\:19 -0300") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab javier ader writes: > Hello, > Section 5.1 say "This value is then encoded as described in PKCS#1 block > encoding EME-PKCS1-v1_5 > in Section 12.1 of RFC 3447...". This rfc (rfc 3447) don't have section > 12.1!!! (or I'm crazy). Also, note that > rfc3447 have errata, but I don't know if it affects to 2440bis-22.txt. Sorry that nobody has responded to you, but this has been corrected during the AUTH48 period. > Yours faithfully, Ader Javier. -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 20 22:41:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjQl9-0008Vj-Gv for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:41:47 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjQl8-00037V-64 for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:41:47 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l9L2JSNq061788 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:19:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l9L2JSqh061786; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:19:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.ihtfp.org (MAIL.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.6]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l9L2JP9X061768 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:19:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from derek@ihtfp.com) Received: from pgpdev.ihtfp.org (nsc69.38.10-97.newsouth.net [69.38.10.97]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "cliodev.ihtfp.com", Issuer "IHTFP Consulting Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by mail.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 556DBBD8576; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:19:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from warlord@localhost) by pgpdev.ihtfp.org (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id l9KMqW4d006060; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:52:32 -0400 To: "Rachel Willmer" Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Multiple OpenPGP messages per file: legal or not? References: <5cd112870710070726p25814d2ct1685365e41ddccf@mail.gmail.com> <20071007165505.GA23470@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710071541o2e567afax7639df656d03a6dd@mail.gmail.com> <20071008015108.GA25033@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080234oeede5afqd62511a73aa441ce@mail.gmail.com> <20071008132217.GA26943@jabberwocky.com> <5cd112870710080657u639ba704g947bf4208262343e@mail.gmail.com> From: Derek Atkins Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:52:32 -0400 In-Reply-To: <5cd112870710080657u639ba704g947bf4208262343e@mail.gmail.com> (Rachel Willmer's message of "Mon\, 8 Oct 2007 14\:57\:30 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Hi, "Rachel Willmer" writes: >> I think the spec does define this. It defines all of those items that >> you mention in the grammar in section 11.3. Any OpenPGP-compliant >> application should be able to write such a message in such a way that >> any other OpenPGP-complaint application can read it, or one or both of >> the implementations aren't OpenPGP compliant. >> >> What the spec doesn't define is whether an application must process an >> "OpenPGP Message, OpenPGP Message" -- two messages concatenated >> together. There is an assumption in the spec that a single stream >> contains a single message, > > If that is intended, it should be explicitly stated, IMHO. I do not agree. rfc2440 is about the OpenPGP Message, not about framing OpenPGP messages or about how you can store multiple OpenPGP messages. > And if that is the case, then ok, I can get back to writing test > cases, and forget about writing RFCs. > > If it is stated somewhere and I've missed it, can you point me at the > reference please? Basically, 2440bis defines the message formats. It does not (nor does it need to) define the process of carrying or storing those messages. Therefore, the question of "message == file" is out of scope for 2440bis and various implementations may choose to implement it however they choose. So, no, I don't think it is stated explicitly, but I do believe that it is implicit that OpenPGP messages are "atomic", and how your implementation deals with multiple messages is implementation dependent. I'll note for the record (as an implementor, not as chair) that the parser implementation I wrote (many many MANY moons ago) allows multiple ASCII Armored messages in a single file, but only a single non-armored OpenPGP message in a single "file". If you have a "stream" then you need an "out of band" mechanism to separate the OpenPGP messages. Personally I think there's no additional draft needed unless you have a specific application in mind and want to define how to frame multiple OpenPGP messages within your application communication stream. Good Luck, > ta > Rachel -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 20 22:41:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjQlE-0000GP-40 for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:41:52 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjQlC-00037j-Q0 for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:41:52 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l9L2JS2P061787 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:19:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l9L2JSC7061785; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:19:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.ihtfp.org (MAIL.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.6]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l9L2JPjo061767 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:19:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from derek@ihtfp.com) Received: from pgpdev.ihtfp.org (nsc69.38.10-97.newsouth.net [69.38.10.97]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "cliodev.ihtfp.com", Issuer "IHTFP Consulting Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by mail.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26CBBD8574; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from warlord@localhost) by pgpdev.ihtfp.org (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id l9KMt6Fp006202; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:55:06 -0400 To: "Rachel Willmer" Cc: ietf-openpgp@imc.org Subject: Re: Anyone up for an OpenPGP Object Format RFC? References: <5cd112870710080631v3d3e43fbued933c827cbbaa3c@mail.gmail.com> From: Derek Atkins Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:55:06 -0400 In-Reply-To: <5cd112870710080631v3d3e43fbued933c827cbbaa3c@mail.gmail.com> (Rachel Willmer's message of "Mon\, 8 Oct 2007 14\:31\:17 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-openpgp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Hi, "Rachel Willmer" writes: > So, if you've been paying attention in the previous thread, you'll > gather I think we should have a common standard for file formats for > common OpenPGP objects such as encrypted files, signed files, and > keyrings. > > Anyone from the other implementation teams interested in writing an > RFC with me to cover this? I wouldn't call it an "OpenPGP Object Format". If you want to call it a "Framing Method for Storing Multiple OpenPGP Messages in a Single File", that it probably more accurate to the problem at hand. This would certainly parallel something like "OpenPGP in XMPP" (which I mentioned in an earlier email). I'm certainly willing to listen to the WG to see if others think that we really need such a draft. > Rachel -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From fapiao3388@163.com Sat Oct 20 23:37:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjRd0-0002vm-7o for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:37:26 -0400 Received: from [116.24.135.38] (helo=163.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjRcz-0000AS-C1 for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:37:26 -0400 From: =?GB2312?B?18nRr7f+zvE=?= Subject: =?GB2312?B?18nRr7f+zvE=?= To: openpgp-archive@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Reply-To: fapiao3388@163.com Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:37:42 +0800 X-Priority: 2 X-Mailer: Foxmail 4.2 [cn] X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d �𾴵ĸ��ˣ��񣩣��ã� ��˾��һ��ʵҵ�й�˾��ҹ�˾��ȶ��ķ�չ��ʵҵ�ۺ��һ ��ϵ��ҹ�˾ÿ�½��,��ƽ��ÿ��Ʊ��ҵ��:�� ˾��ƽʱ��ʼ��۷��Ҫ��ЩƱ�ݿ��ҹ�˾��磨��ֵ˰��Ʊ�� 6.5%��ҡ��Ʒ��շ�1.5%��ң��ɴ��˰��Ʊ��װ�� ȡ��շ�1.8%��ҡ��ҹ�˾��һֱ��ã��Ʊ�� ϣ��˾��˾��ͬ�� ˾�ĳ�ŵ��Żݵļ۸��ʱ�ķ��Ҫ��ṩ��λ�� ˾��Щ�Ÿл��ģ��ڵ��ϲ�֤��õ�˰��ȷ�Ϻ��ٸ�� ��ϵķ��һ�Σ��س��õ��ѣ� ��ӭ��ѯ�� ͻ��߶�ʮ��Сʱ�� ϵ �� 13632912156 E-mail ��fapiao3388@163.com From fapiao3388@163.com Sat Oct 20 23:37:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjRd8-00032s-GE for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:37:34 -0400 Received: from [116.24.135.38] (helo=163.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjRd5-0005qD-AG for openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:37:34 -0400 From: =?GB2312?B?18nRr7f+zvE=?= Subject: =?GB2312?B?18nRr7f+zvE=?= To: openpgp-archive@lists.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Reply-To: fapiao3388@163.com Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:37:48 +0800 X-Priority: 2 X-Mailer: Foxmail 5.0 beta2 [cn] X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d �𾴵ĸ��ˣ��񣩣��ã� ��˾��һ��ʵҵ�й�˾��ҹ�˾��ȶ��ķ�չ��ʵҵ�ۺ��һ ��ϵ��ҹ�˾ÿ�½��,��ƽ��ÿ��Ʊ��ҵ��:�� ˾��ƽʱ��ʼ��۷��Ҫ��ЩƱ�ݿ��ҹ�˾��磨��ֵ˰��Ʊ�� 6.5%��ҡ��Ʒ��շ�1.5%��ң��ɴ��˰��Ʊ��װ�� ȡ��շ�1.8%��ҡ��ҹ�˾��һֱ��ã��Ʊ�� ϣ��˾��˾��ͬ�� ˾�ĳ�ŵ��Żݵļ۸��ʱ�ķ��Ҫ��ṩ��λ�� ˾��Щ�Ÿл��ģ��ڵ��ϲ�֤��õ�˰��ȷ�Ϻ��ٸ�� ��ϵķ��һ�Σ��س��õ��ѣ� ��ӭ��ѯ�� ͻ��߶�ʮ��Сʱ�� ϵ �� 13632912156 E-mail ��fapiao3388@163.com From szzhsylittmm@126.com Sun Oct 21 18:11:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ijj1U-0000K4-2X for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 21 Oct 2007 18:11:52 -0400 Received: from [121.15.57.236] (helo=126.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ijj1I-0004jQ-0N for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 21 Oct 2007 18:11:41 -0400 From: =?GB2312?B?wO7PyMn6?= Subject: =?GB2312?B?18nRr7rP1/ch?= To: openpgp-archive@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset="GB2312" Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 06:11:41 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Foxmail 4.1 [cn] X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 �𾴵Ĺ�˾��񡢸��: ��! ��˾��˴��˾�ڹ��.��ݸ.�Ϻ�.��.��.��.�ൺ.��.��.�� ʡ�о��зֹ�˾��϶��ɲ��ÿ��۶��,ÿ��в��ʣ�෢/Ʊ�Խϵ� ˰��1%-2%��Ҷ��: 1:��ͨ��Ʒ��ۡ��ҵ��ҵ�� 2:��ҵ��ҵ��ҵ��ʻ��˴�� 3:��ش��ֵ˰(��ؽɿ��) 4:��ŵ:��/Ʊһ��ͨ��˰��ְ��칺,��ʱ�绰��ϲ�ѯ��֤�� ,��˾��ʻ��淽��õ��Ļ�,��ӭ�µ��ѯǢ̸! ˳ף�� ϵ ��:�ǿ ��ϵ�绰:135-9033-5585 ҵ��Q Q:549613402 E - MAIL:gdzhli@126.com ��ʵҵ��޹�˾ From Dev_Pazian@nailedd.de Mon Oct 22 12:12:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjztH-00023c-FU for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:12:32 -0400 Received: from [200.8.21.111] (helo=[200.8.178.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ijzt3-0002OF-74 for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:12:29 -0400 Received: from ESTACION-05 ([179.195.140.7] helo=ESTACION-05) by [200.8.178.62] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1OnaZx-000HOQ-pS for openpgp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 00:13:00 +0200 Message-ID: <000901c8142f$76c0e2b0$3eb208c8@ESTACION05> From: "Dev Pazian" To: Subject: bazinet Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 00:12:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C81440.3A49B2B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C81440.3A49B2B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hello love openpgp-archive stop paying for sex dummy! get all the girls with a big cock http://okrola.com/ Dev Pazian ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C81440.3A49B2B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C8160A.43CE0B80-- From upirvh@bpiron.com Wed Oct 24 08:04:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkeyV-0001Av-3O; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:04:39 -0400 Received: from [85.104.119.43] (helo=dsl85-104-30507.ttnet.net.tr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkeyN-00029J-W1; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:04:35 -0400 Received: from [85.104.119.43] by mx1.business.mindspring.com; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:04:44 +0200 From: "Alice Echols" To: Subject: Total disruption of oil supplies would be bullish, analysts say Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:04:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C81646.D421DD10" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: Aca6Q200W0YG4GUJNL6NIG97KOWZG5== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.2300 Message-ID: <01c81646$d421dd10$2b776855@upirvh> X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 85e99493ec37f9acef29c7843dbf2e68 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C81646.D421DD10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C81646.D421DD10" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C81646.D421DD10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The victim's mother, Nadine Trintignant, had opposed Cantat's early release, saying it was a blow for the those fighting to end violence against women.The signing appeared to be a response to Yushchenko's tacit endorsement of the so-called Orange coalition. Yushchenko urged the two forces to quickly form a cabinet.Spears, 25, arrived at the Van Nuys Community Police Station at 9 p.m. (midnight ET) Monday, said Los Angeles Police Department spokesman Mike Lopez.In September, a judge ordered Spears, 25, to submit to random drug tests after finding she engaged in "habitual, frequent, and continuous use of controlled substances and alcohol."TOULOUSE, France (AP) -- French rock star Bertrand Cantat, convicted for beating his actress girlfriend to death, left prison Tuesday after spending four years behind bars.Britney Spears drives away from a family-court appearance last week."We have no time to waste, we have a number of urgent matters on the agenda," Yushchenko told Tymoshenko and the leaders of his bloc, according to the presidential Web site.She was there about 45 minutes while being booked on misdemeanor counts of hit-and-run and driving without a valid California driver's license, Lopez said. ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C81646.D421DD10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= /TR>

The victim's mother, Nadine= Trintignant, had opposed Cantat's early release, saying it was a blow fo= r the those fighting to end violence against women.

The signing appeared to be = a response to Yushchenko's tacit endorsement of the so-called Orange coal= ition. Yushchenko urged the two forces to quickly form a cabinet.

Spears, 25, arrived at the = Van Nuys Community Police Station at 9 p.m. (midnight ET) Monday, said Lo= s Angeles Police Department spokesman Mike Lopez.

In September, a judge order= ed Spears, 25, to submit to random drug tests after finding she engaged i= n "habitual, frequent, and continuous use of controlled substances and al= cohol."

TOULOUSE, France (AP) -- Fr= ench rock star Bertrand Cantat, convicted for beating his actress girlfri= end to death, left prison Tuesday after spending four years behind bars.<= /o:p>

Britney Spears drives away = from a family-court appearance last week.

"We have no time to waste, = we have a number of urgent matters on the agenda," Yushchenko told Tymosh= enko and the leaders of his bloc, according to the presidential Web site.=

She was there about 45 minu= tes while being booked on misdemeanor counts of hit-and-run and driving w= ithout a valid California driver's license, Lopez said.

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QTwjNoLmNDbGirKgUSmVRlKkFUJoQELorGqniQKkCYIBGHDjm/qjCKIiAIYtSEIoJ7LoOJUj1Q5u Ghr/7kDk3xRMwQhCaEuOaJxqbTQWLkr+IrwWxBoAAVeQXlcYF168QUEgG170w+PNaPf9RNPKBeze RREYRC4CTBbg50SkH0TEau4mb0lAX03s7tlCaOo6hPMmBPLihe7txOzNqzIq71lEb0mw313cIU1c b11VKqZVA+wlRPayXiKUoWBgIMBMAXnRhPHSxOiYSUSEFfcmRm7Ar0m46/5SBHAA6+TF1EDU7/os aQAv8D8Er0Z470OIL1TULzZk3vVZH726RPqaxC1mBAQvBgKfxT0c40dscEpYcPVN1l0om0TswiUw sH+QL1SAgX/Ag/ElBQqfBPPCcEttg0UtQ2pMLw8v5YR9KfAQDxNiSN9AuO6CCHFDkLBNGPER+4ct DOhgUMSwVIUUo0QUXtX9wsQN04QBF8Q3BUKTkoUzbIyU2MUWf4SWzqtLKJUTV00Yw8QH99PckQUj hNM/gO9OIGUIT7EgP8QdAJdaNCkAs8Qc87ASk4Q/QLF+LMQtYNkkQwUtDjIR73BB5GIjx0X6VbKN BLJBgDIml4X/TgTt2sU8GNMuifJLwMIll7JByDAcy7Itax8tr0/ykYQs6kQrdN4wpMoi7wT6UoQr J0SUOJ8fE8QuZwQg+IOKusQomN9DfNQtY1ZJDNZGBAQAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C81646.D421DD10-- From klaassens@novotecnic.net Wed Oct 24 10:15:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ikh1a-0000kc-VA for 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