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From: Ben Niven-Jenkins <ben@niven-jenkins.co.uk>
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Subject: [Pce] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-pce-rfc6006bis-02
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Reviewer: Ben Niven-Jenkins
Review result: Has Issues

 Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The
Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as
they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special
request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs.
For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would
be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call
comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by
updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-pce-rfc6006bis-02
Reviewer: Ben Niven-Jenkins
Review Date: 2nd July 2017
Intended Status: Standards Track

Summary: I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be
resolved before publication.

Comments: The document was generally well written and readable.

Major Issues: No major issues found.

Minor Issues:
1) Section 3.2 SERO & SRRO objects - In Section 6.5 you have them listed with
Object-Type 0: Reserved, whereas in section 3.2 you start at 1. you should be
consistent and list them the same in section 3.2 as you do in 6.5?

Also in Section 6.5 the reference is to [This I-D] whereas in section 3.2 it is
to [RFC6006].

2) Section 3.10 says “When adding new leaves to or removing old leaves from the
existing P2MP tree, by supplying a list of existing leaves, it SHOULD be
possible to optimise the existing P2MP tree.” I don’t see why you have used a
capitalised SHOULD here as you are simply making a statement rather than
placing a requirement on an implementation.

3) Section 5 says “PCEP implementations SHOULD consider the additional security
provided by Transport Layer Security (TLS) [I-D.ietf-pce-pceps].”

Use of SHOULD says to me you expect the majority of implementations to
implement I-D.ietf-pce-pceps. So should the reference to I-D.ietf-pce-pceps be
normative?

4) Section 6.5 - PCEP Objects. Should you specify the meaning of Object-Types
0, 1 & 2 for the END-POINTS object, like you do for the other objects in this
section?

Nits:
Section 3.9 says
“The only difference is that the user MUST insert the list of RROs and SRROs
after each type of END-POINTS in the PCReq message”

and Section 3.10 also says

“To add new leaves, the user MUST build a P2MP request using END-POINTS with
leaf type 1.”

“To remove old leaves, the user must build a P2MP request using END-POINTS with
leaf type 2.

“For old leaves, the user MUST provide the old path as a list of RROs that
immediately follows each END-POINTS object.”

You haven’t used or defined the term “user” up until now. By user do you really
mean PCC? If not I think you should explain what/who this user is.



From nobody Sun Jul  2 09:08:56 2017
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From: Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Ben Niven-Jenkins <ben@niven-jenkins.co.uk>, rtg-dir@ietf.org
Cc: draft-ietf-pce-rfc6006bis.all@ietf.org, pce@ietf.org, rtg-ads@ietf.org, "dhruv.dhody@huawei.com" <dhruv.dhody@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-pce-rfc6006bis-02
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Hi Ben,

Thanks for your review. Please see inline.

On Sunday 02 July 2017 05:45 PM, Ben Niven-Jenkins wrote:
> Reviewer: Ben Niven-Jenkins
> Review result: Has Issues
>
>   Hello,
>
> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The
> Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as
> they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special
> request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs.
> For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
> ​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would
> be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call
> comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by
> updating the draft.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-pce-rfc6006bis-02
> Reviewer: Ben Niven-Jenkins
> Review Date: 2nd July 2017
> Intended Status: Standards Track
>
> Summary: I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be
> resolved before publication.
>
> Comments: The document was generally well written and readable.
>
> Major Issues: No major issues found.
>
> Minor Issues:
> 1) Section 3.2 SERO & SRRO objects - In Section 6.5 you have them listed with
> Object-Type 0: Reserved, whereas in section 3.2 you start at 1. you should be
> consistent and list them the same in section 3.2 as you do in 6.5?
>
> Also in Section 6.5 the reference is to [This I-D] whereas in section 3.2 it is
> to [RFC6006].
[Dhruv]: Updated.
> 2) Section 3.10 says “When adding new leaves to or removing old leaves from the
> existing P2MP tree, by supplying a list of existing leaves, it SHOULD be
> possible to optimise the existing P2MP tree.” I don’t see why you have used a
> capitalised SHOULD here as you are simply making a statement rather than
> placing a requirement on an implementation.
[Dhruv]: Ok. Updated.
> 3) Section 5 says “PCEP implementations SHOULD consider the additional security
> provided by Transport Layer Security (TLS) [I-D.ietf-pce-pceps].”
>
> Use of SHOULD says to me you expect the majority of implementations to
> implement I-D.ietf-pce-pceps. So should the reference to I-D.ietf-pce-pceps be
> normative?

[Dhruv]:Hmm, you may be right.
It just that other documents have put this down as Informative usually. 
PCEPS is also in publication process, so normative reference will most 
likely not block progress. I am not sure if we should deviate in this 
document. Thoughts?

> 4) Section 6.5 - PCEP Objects. Should you specify the meaning of Object-Types
> 0, 1 & 2 for the END-POINTS object, like you do for the other objects in this
> section?

[Dhruv]: END-POINTS is an existing object defined in RFC5440. This 
document defines new object-types for the END-POINTS object. Thus I 
don't think there is a reason to mention 0,1 & 2.
> Nits:
> Section 3.9 says
> “The only difference is that the user MUST insert the list of RROs and SRROs
> after each type of END-POINTS in the PCReq message”
>
> and Section 3.10 also says
>
> “To add new leaves, the user MUST build a P2MP request using END-POINTS with
> leaf type 1.”
>
> “To remove old leaves, the user must build a P2MP request using END-POINTS with
> leaf type 2.
>
> “For old leaves, the user MUST provide the old path as a list of RROs that
> immediately follows each END-POINTS object.”
>
> You haven’t used or defined the term “user” up until now. By user do you really
> mean PCC? If not I think you should explain what/who this user is.
[Dhruv]: Updated to PCC.

The working copy and diff are attached.

Thanks for your review.

Regards,
Dhruv

>


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--------------4C64B9632F75A51EC27E732A--


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Subject: Re: [Pce] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-pce-rfc6006bis-02
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Hi Dhruv,

> On 2 Jul 2017, at 17:08, Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Ben,
>=20
> Thanks for your review. Please see inline.
>=20
> On Sunday 02 July 2017 05:45 PM, Ben Niven-Jenkins wrote:
>> 3) Section 5 says =E2=80=9CPCEP implementations SHOULD consider the =
additional security
>> provided by Transport Layer Security (TLS) [I-D.ietf-pce-pceps].=E2=80=9D=

>>=20
>> Use of SHOULD says to me you expect the majority of implementations =
to
>> implement I-D.ietf-pce-pceps. So should the reference to =
I-D.ietf-pce-pceps be
>> normative?
>=20
> [Dhruv]:Hmm, you may be right.
> It just that other documents have put this down as Informative =
usually. PCEPS is also in publication process, so normative reference =
will most likely not block progress. I am not sure if we should deviate =
in this document. Thoughts?

I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion, I point it out as something that =
struck me as a possible oversight. If the authors & ADs are happy for it =
to be an informative reference, that=E2=80=99s fine with me.

>> 4) Section 6.5 - PCEP Objects. Should you specify the meaning of =
Object-Types
>> 0, 1 & 2 for the END-POINTS object, like you do for the other objects =
in this
>> section?
>=20
> [Dhruv]: END-POINTS is an existing object defined in RFC5440. This =
document defines new object-types for the END-POINTS object. Thus I =
don't think there is a reason to mention 0,1 & 2.

Fair enough.

Ben


--Apple-Mail=_9619BE4F-C095-4565-9B85-02689330DE39
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Dhruv,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 2 Jul 2017, at 17:08, Dhruv =
Dhody &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dhruv.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Hi Ben,</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Thanks for your review. Please see =
inline.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">On Sunday 02 July 2017 =
05:45 PM, Ben Niven-Jenkins wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">3) Section 5 says =
=E2=80=9CPCEP implementations SHOULD consider the additional =
security</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">provided by Transport Layer =
Security (TLS) [I-D.ietf-pce-pceps].=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Use of SHOULD says to me you expect the majority of =
implementations to<br class=3D"">implement I-D.ietf-pce-pceps. So should =
the reference to I-D.ietf-pce-pceps be<br class=3D"">normative?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">[Dhruv]:Hmm, you may be =
right.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">It just that other =
documents have put this down as Informative usually. PCEPS is also in =
publication process, so normative reference will most likely not block =
progress. I am not sure if we should deviate in this document. =
Thoughts?</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>I don=E2=80=99t =
have a strong opinion, I point it out as something that struck me as a =
possible oversight. If the authors &amp; ADs are happy for it to be an =
informative reference, that=E2=80=99s fine with me.</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">4) Section 6.5 - PCEP Objects. Should you specify the =
meaning of Object-Types<br class=3D"">0, 1 &amp; 2 for the END-POINTS =
object, like you do for the other objects in this<br =
class=3D"">section?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">[Dhruv]: END-POINTS is an existing object =
defined in RFC5440. This document defines new object-types for the =
END-POINTS object. Thus I don't think there is a reason to mention 0,1 =
&amp; 2.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Fair =
enough.</div><div><br class=3D""></div></div><div>Ben</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/jA4EdNZp8VPgdcRvwFy8QyjurQs>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-pce-rfc6006bis-02
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Hi Dhruv,

> On 2 Jul 2017, at 17:08, Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Ben,
>=20
> Thanks for your review. Please see inline.
>=20
> On Sunday 02 July 2017 05:45 PM, Ben Niven-Jenkins wrote:
>> 3) Section 5 says =E2=80=9CPCEP implementations SHOULD consider the =
additional security
>> provided by Transport Layer Security (TLS) [I-D.ietf-pce-pceps].=E2=80=9D=

>>=20
>> Use of SHOULD says to me you expect the majority of implementations =
to
>> implement I-D.ietf-pce-pceps. So should the reference to =
I-D.ietf-pce-pceps be
>> normative?
>=20
> [Dhruv]:Hmm, you may be right.
> It just that other documents have put this down as Informative =
usually. PCEPS is also in publication process, so normative reference =
will most likely not block progress. I am not sure if we should deviate =
in this document. Thoughts?

I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion, I point it out as something that =
struck me as a possible oversight. If the authors & ADs are happy for it =
to be an informative reference, that=E2=80=99s fine with me.

>> 4) Section 6.5 - PCEP Objects. Should you specify the meaning of =
Object-Types
>> 0, 1 & 2 for the END-POINTS object, like you do for the other objects =
in this
>> section?
>=20
> [Dhruv]: END-POINTS is an existing object defined in RFC5440. This =
document defines new object-types for the END-POINTS object. Thus I =
don't think there is a reason to mention 0,1 & 2.

Fair enough.

Ben


--Apple-Mail=_9619BE4F-C095-4565-9B85-02689330DE39
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Dhruv,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 2 Jul 2017, at 17:08, Dhruv =
Dhody &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dhruv.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Hi Ben,</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Thanks for your review. Please see =
inline.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">On Sunday 02 July 2017 =
05:45 PM, Ben Niven-Jenkins wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">3) Section 5 says =
=E2=80=9CPCEP implementations SHOULD consider the additional =
security</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">provided by Transport Layer =
Security (TLS) [I-D.ietf-pce-pceps].=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Use of SHOULD says to me you expect the majority of =
implementations to<br class=3D"">implement I-D.ietf-pce-pceps. So should =
the reference to I-D.ietf-pce-pceps be<br class=3D"">normative?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">[Dhruv]:Hmm, you may be =
right.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">It just that other =
documents have put this down as Informative usually. PCEPS is also in =
publication process, so normative reference will most likely not block =
progress. I am not sure if we should deviate in this document. =
Thoughts?</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>I don=E2=80=99t =
have a strong opinion, I point it out as something that struck me as a =
possible oversight. If the authors &amp; ADs are happy for it to be an =
informative reference, that=E2=80=99s fine with me.</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">4) Section 6.5 - PCEP Objects. Should you specify the =
meaning of Object-Types<br class=3D"">0, 1 &amp; 2 for the END-POINTS =
object, like you do for the other objects in this<br =
class=3D"">section?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">[Dhruv]: END-POINTS is an existing object =
defined in RFC5440. This document defines new object-types for the =
END-POINTS object. Thus I don't think there is a reason to mention 0,1 =
&amp; 2.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Fair =
enough.</div><div><br class=3D""></div></div><div>Ben</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_9619BE4F-C095-4565-9B85-02689330DE39--


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From: Ramanjaneya palleti <ramanjaneya.palleti@huawei.com>
To: Ramanjaneya palleti <ramanjaneya.palleti@huawei.com>, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" <internet-drafts@ietf.org>, Yosuke Tanaka <yosuke.tanaka@ntt.com>, Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com>, Yuji Kamite <y.kamite@ntt.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-tanaka-pce-stateful-pce-mbb-04.txt
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From nobody Sun Jul  2 22:38:14 2017
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Path Computation Element of the IETF.

        Title           : Path Computation Element (PCE) Protocol Extensions for Stateful PCE usage for Point-to-Multipoint Traffic Engineering Label Switched Paths
        Authors         : Udayasree Palle
                          Dhruv Dhody
                          Yosuke Tanaka
                          Vishnu Pavan Beeram
	Filename        : draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-p2mp-04.txt
	Pages           : 32
	Date            : 2017-07-02

Abstract:
   The Path Computation Element (PCE) has been identified as an
   appropriate technology for the determination of the paths of point-
   to-multipoint (P2MP) TE LSPs.  This document provides extensions
   required for Path Computation Element communication Protocol (PCEP)
   so as to enable the usage of a stateful PCE capability in supporting
   P2MP TE LSPs.


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A diff from the previous version is available at:
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From nobody Sun Jul  2 22:58:14 2017
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Subject: [Pce] I-D Action: draft-ietf-pce-rfc6006bis-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Path Computation Element of the IETF.

        Title           : Extensions to the Path Computation Element Communication Protocol (PCEP) for Point-to-Multipoint Traffic Engineering Label Switched Paths
        Authors         : Quintin Zhao
                          Dhruv Dhody
                          Ramanjaneya Reddy Palleti
                          Daniel King
	Filename        : draft-ietf-pce-rfc6006bis-03.txt
	Pages           : 40
	Date            : 2017-07-02

Abstract:
   Point-to-point Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized
   MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering Label Switched Paths (TE LSPs) may
   be established using signaling techniques, but their paths may first
   need to be determined.  The Path Computation Element (PCE) has been
   identified as an appropriate technology for the determination of the
   paths of point-to-multipoint (P2MP) TE LSPs.

   This document describes extensions to the PCE communication Protocol
   (PCEP) to handle requests and responses for the computation of paths
   for P2MP TE LSPs.

   This document obsoletes RFC 6006.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-rfc6006bis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-rfc6006bis-03
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-pce-rfc6006bis-03

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Subject: [Pce] I-D Action: draft-ietf-pce-pcep-exp-codepoints-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Path Computation Element of the IETF.

        Title           : Experimental Codepoint Allocation for Path Computation Element communication Protocol (PCEP)
        Authors         : Dhruv Dhody
                          Daniel King
	Filename        : draft-ietf-pce-pcep-exp-codepoints-01.txt
	Pages           : 6
	Date            : 2017-07-02

Abstract:
   IANA assigns values to the Path Computation Element (PCE)
   communication Protocol (PCEP) parameters (messages, objects, TLVs).
   IANA established a new top-level registry to contain all PCEP
   codepoints and sub-registries.  The allocation policy for each new
   registry is by IETF Consensus.

   This document seeks to mark some codepoints for experimental usage of
   PCEP.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-exp-codepoints/

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https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-exp-codepoints-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-pce-pcep-exp-codepoints-01


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From: "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>
To: "TEAS WG (teas@ietf.org)" <teas@ietf.org>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
CC: "teas-chairs@ietf.org" <teas-chairs@ietf.org>, "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Agenda for Joint Yang WG session in Prague
Thread-Index: AdLvjgoSaBfnmsHxTqCqVsjaruTqnAAk39mQAP+JQyA=
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 17:13:41 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Agenda for Joint Yang WG session in Prague
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Final reminder!

Matt

> A clarification on this: keep in mind that the joint session is intended
> to provide a forum for raising YANG related issues or impacts that relate
> to more than one of the participating WGs (PCE, CCAMP, MPLS, and TEAS).
> Simple updates or single WG issues should be discussed in the respective
> WG session.
>=20
> Matt/Lou/Pavan
>=20
> > All,
> >
> > Once again, we'll be having a joint Yang session. This time, TEAS is
> > hosting, which means I get to organize the agenda.
> >
> > We're meeting at 13:30 - 15:30 on Thursday July 20th. Please send slot
> > requests for the TEAS session to me by the end of the day on Monday,
> > July 3rd (that's next week). Note that this is also the deadline for
> > draft submission.
> >
> > We'll need slides for presentation by Friday, July 14th so that we can
> > get them ready to present over the weekend.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Matt/Lou/Pavan


From nobody Fri Jul  7 00:48:08 2017
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From: Liaison Statement Management Tool <lsmt@ietf.org>
To: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, "Julien Meuric" <julien.meuric@orange.com>, "Stewart Bryant" <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "Jonathan Hardwick" <jonathan.hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, "George Swallow" <swallow.ietf@gmail.com>, "Nicolai Leymann" <n.leymann@telekom.de>, "Andrew Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>, "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.nu>, "Lou Berger" <lberger@labn.net>, "Vishnu Pavan Beeram" <vbeeram@juniper.net>, "JP Vasseur" <jpv@cisco.com>
Cc: Deborah Brungard <db3546@att.com>, Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>, Multiprotocol Label Switching Discussion List <mpls@ietf.org>, Pseudowire And LDP-enabled Services Discussion List <pals@ietf.org>, Andrew Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>, Common Control and Measurement Plane Discussion List <ccamp@ietf.org>, Nicolai Leymann <n.leymann@telekom.de>, Scott Mansfield <Scott.Mansfield@Ericsson.com>, Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, George Swallow <swallow.ietf@gmail.com>,  Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling Discussion List <teas@ietf.org>, John Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, Alvaro Retana <aretana@cisco.com>, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, Vishnu Beeram <vbeeram@juniper.net>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, Jonathan Hardwick <jonathan.hardwick@metaswitch.com>, Path Computation Element Discussion List <pce@ietf.org>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, itu-t-liaison@iab.org, naotaka.morita@ntt-at.co.jp, JP Vasseur <jpv@cisco.com>
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Subject: [Pce] New Liaison Statement, "LS on OTNT Standardization Work Plan"
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Title: LS on OTNT Standardization Work Plan
Submission Date: 2017-07-06
URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1532/
Please reply by 2018-01-16
From: Hiroshi Ota <hiroshi.ota@itu.int>
To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vbeeram@juniper.net>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>,Nicolai Leymann <n.leymann@telekom.de>,Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>,George Swallow <swallow.ietf@gmail.com>,Andrew Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>,Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>,Jonathan Hardwick <jonathan.hardwick@metaswitch.com>,JP Vasseur <jpv@cisco.com>,Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>,Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>,Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
Cc: Deborah Brungard <db3546@att.com>,Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>,Multiprotocol Label Switching Discussion List <mpls@ietf.org>,Pseudowire And LDP-enabled Services Discussion List <pals@ietf.org>,Andrew Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>,Common Control and Measurement Plane Discussion List <ccamp@ietf.org>,Nicolai Leymann <n.leymann@telekom.de>,Scott Mansfield <Scott.Mansfield@Ericsson.com>,Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>,George Swallow <swallow.ietf@gmail.com>,Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling Discussion List <teas@ietf.org>,John Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>,Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>,Alvaro Retana <aretana@cisco.com>,Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>,Vishnu Beeram <vbeeram@juniper.net>,Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>,Jonathan Hardwick <jonathan.hardwick@metaswitch.com>,Path Computation Element Discussion List <pce@ietf.org>,Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>,Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>,itu-t-liaison@iab.org,JP Vasseur <jpv@cisco.com>
Response Contacts: naotaka.morita@ntt-at.co.jp
Technical Contacts: 
Purpose: For comment

Body: Thank you for your review and comments on “Optical Transport Networks & Technologies Standardization Work Plan.” Attached is Issue 23, the latest version updated by the SG15 meeting in June 2017.

Editor of the document thanks you for your continued support and the information provided.

>From the previous issue (Issue 22), the document is split into two parts to separate up-to-date snapshot-type information and comprehensive database-type information.
- Part 1 provides highlights of relevant SDOs’ activity.
- Part 2 updated.

Splitting the document into the two parts is intended to make this information more useful and attractive to the potential readers. ITU-T SG15 is considering more effective way to provide the information and more efficient way to maintain and update it. For example for Part 1, setting up the template for reporting. For Part 2, automated production based on database is under consideration.
Again, any comments, not only the correction/update of the information but also the ways to provide the information are highly appreciated.
Attachments:

    OTNT Standardization Work Plan, Issue 23 (TD55r1/PLEN)
    https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2017-07-06-itu-t-sg-15-mpls-ccamp-pce-pals-teas-ls-on-otnt-standardization-work-plan-attachment-1.pdf


From nobody Mon Jul 10 09:11:53 2017
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Building the PCE Agenda for IETF 99
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Hi all,

The tentative agenda for our upcoming meeting is on line since last
week. Without further comments, it will be used as a final version.

Presenters, if you have a slot, please send your slides to the chairs
and secretary by Saturday, 15th.

Thanks,

Jon, JP & Julien


Jun. 23, 2017 - julien.meuric@orange.com:
> Hi all,
> 
> The PCE WG session in Prague is tentatively scheduled on Tuesday 3:50pm
> (facing I2RS).
> If you need meeting time to progress some work, please send a request to
> the chairs and secretary by Monday July 3, including:
> - the associated I-D(s),
> - the expected presenter,
> - the requested duration,
> - the motivation to request some face-to-face time as opposed to using
> the mailing list to progress your work.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jon, JP & Julien
> 


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From: "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>
To: "TEAS WG (teas@ietf.org)" <teas@ietf.org>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
CC: "teas-chairs@ietf.org" <teas-chairs@ietf.org>, "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Slides for Joint Yang WG session in Prague
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Subject: [Pce] Slides for Joint Yang WG session in Prague
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All,

A reminder for folks presenting in the joint yang session in Prague: please=
 send slides by the end of Friday so that we can get them posted well in ad=
vance.

The agenda is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/99/agenda/teas/ (seco=
nd session).

Cheers

Matt/Lou/Pavan


> All,
>=20
> Once again, we'll be having a joint Yang session. This time, TEAS is
> hosting, which means I get to organize the agenda.
>=20
> We're meeting at 13:30 - 15:30 on Thursday July 20th. Please send slot
> requests for the TEAS session to me by the end of the day on Monday, July
> 3rd (that's next week). Note that this is also the deadline for draft
> submission.
>=20
> We'll need slides for presentation by Friday, July 14th so that we can ge=
t
> them ready to present over the weekend.
>=20
> Cheers
>=20
> Matt/Lou/Pavan


From nobody Tue Jul 11 20:08:37 2017
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From: Dale Worley <worley@ariadne.com>
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Subject: [Pce] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-pce-pceps-14
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Reviewer: Dale Worley
Review result: Ready with Nits

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft.  The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

For more information, please see the FAQ at
<http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/area/gen/trac/wiki/GenArtfaq>.

Document:  draft-ietf-pce-pceps-14
Reviewer:  Dale R. Worley
Review Date:  2017-07-11
IETF LC End Date:  2017-07-12
IESG Telechat date:  2017-08-03

Summary:

       This draft is basically ready for publication, but has nits
       that should be fixed before publication.

Nits/editorial comments:

A few of these may rise to the level of minor technical issues,
especially:
section 3.2: whether error TBA2/2 is distinct from error 1/1
section 3.2: the receipt of an PCErr during the failure of TLS
             establishment
section 3.3: the distinction between StartTLSWait and OpenWait
section 5:   a full discussion of backward compatibility considerations
section 8.2: MIB extension

1.  Introduction

   This document describes a security container for the transport of
   PCEP messages, and therefore they do not affect the flexibility and
   extensibility of PCEP.

There is no plural antecedent for "they" to reference.  I think you
could use "it", but the Editor may have better suggestions.

3.2.  Initiating the TLS Procedures

   with a PCErr message with Error-Type set to [TBA2 by IANA] (PCEP
   StartTLS failure)

It seems that we shouldn't use this Error-Type to object to the use of
a message other than Open and StartTLS as an initial message, as that
error isn't a misuse of StartTLS per se and is only incidentally
related to StartTLS.  Indeed, isn't there already an Error-Type for
this error (unexpected initial message), since two RFC 5440
implementations can commit/detect it?  Looking at RFC 5440 section
7.15, I see:

   Error-Type    Meaning
      1          PCEP session establishment failure
                 Error-value=1: reception of an invalid Open message or
                                a non Open message.

It seems to me that this document is adjusting the meaning of error
1/1, rather than defining a new error situation.

   If the PCEP speaker that does not support PCEPS, receives a StartTLS
   message, it MUST behave according to the existing error mechanism
   described in section 6.2 of [RFC5440] (in case message is received
   prior to an Open message) or section 6.9 of [RFC5440] (for the case
   of reception of unknown message).

I think you want s/MUST/will/, since the described behavior isn't
specified by this document, but rather by RFC 5440.

In any case, this paragraph might want to reference the
backward-compatibility consideration that I would expect to appear in
section 5 -- How does the PCEPS-supporting element deal with the
non-PCEPS-supporting element after the connection attempt with
StartTLS fails?

   After the exchange of startTLS messages, if a PCEP speaker cannot
   establish a TLS connection for some reason (e.g. the required
   mechanisms for certificate revocation checking are not available), it
   MUST return a PCErr message (in clear) with Error-Type set to [TBA2
   by IANA] (PCEP StartTLS failure) and Error-value set to:

s/startTLS/StartTLS/

Is there a well-defined way for a participant in a TLS connection
start to receive *either* a PCErr message in the clear *or* whatever
comes next in TLS setup -- and know which case has happened?  Is there
a way to use popular modular TLS libraries and have the application
above the library receive such a PCErr message?  I don't understand
TLS nearly well enough to know the answer to this, but it would
probably help implementors if answers were given to these questions.

      The peer MAY choose to re-establish the PCEP session
      without TLS next.

I think you mean "The peer that initiated the connection MAY choose to
re-establish ...".  As written, "the peer" seems to refer to the peer
that generated the PCErr, but if it was the receiving peer that
generated the PCErr, you probably don't want it to attempt to
re-establish the session but rather wait for the initiating peer to do
so.

   Given the asymmetric nature of TLS for connection establishment it is
   relevant to identify the roles of each of the PCEP peers in it.  The
   PCC SHALL act as TLS client, and the PCE SHALL act as TLS server,
   according to [RFC5246].

See comments re section 4 about terminology.  I think you need to have
terms for the element that is initiating the connection (either a PCC
or a PCE) and the element that is receiving the connection (always a
PCE).

3.3.  The StartTLS Message

   Once the TCP connection has been successfully established and the
   StartTLS message sent, the sender MUST start a timer called
   StartTLSWait timer, after the expiration of which, if no StartTLS
   message has been received, it MUST send a PCErr message and releases
   the TCP connection with Error-Type set to [TBA2 by IANA] and Error-
   value set to 5 (no StartTLS message received before the expiration of
   the StartTLSWait timer).  A RECOMMENDED value for StartTLSWait timer
   is 60 seconds.

Really, the timer is the time to wait for *any* message to received.
Open messages will cause start of upward-compatibility mechanisms (if
any); any other message will be immediately rejected as an error.

Indeed, isn't there already a timer which a peer uses to wait for the
other peer to send a message?  Isn't StartTLSWait functionally the
same as OpenWait (RFC 5440 section 6.2)?

   ... it MUST send a PCErr message and releases ...

This sentence is grammatically interesting.  One part is logically "it
MUST send a PCErr message".  The second part might be "it MUST release
the TCP connection", or "it releases the TCP connection".  Strictly
speaking, the rules of English grammar cause the release/releases
distinction to disambiguate whether MUST applies to both parts or only
to the first part.  But I don't think you want to rely on that, and
you want to say "... and MUST release the TCP connection ...".

3.4.  TLS Connection Establishment

   1.  Immediately negotiate TLS sessions according to [RFC5246].

In this case, you'd say "Immediately negotiate a TLS session ...".

3.5.  Peer Identity

   At least the following parameters of the X.509 certificate SHOULD
   be exposed:

   o  Peer's IP address

   o  Peer's fully qualified domain name (FQDN)

To the naive (me), these two items seem to refer to the TCP connection
that was established.  But I suspect that they're intended to refer to
the IP address and FQDN that might be encoded in the certificate (as
in, "The following precedence applies: for DNS name validation,
subjectAltName:DNS has precedence over CN; for IP address validation,
subjectAltName:iPAddr has precedence over CN.")

And it seems that the actual remote IP address of the TCP connection
and whatever remote FQDN or IP address was used to initiate the
connection should also be exposed to the administrative system.

So I think there's room to expand on and clarify exactly the data
items that are intended here.

4.  Discovery Mechanisms

   A PCE can advertise its capability to support PCEPS using the IGP
   advertisement and discovery mechanism.

If I understand this correctly, IGP is "Interior Gateway Protocol",
and it's a category of protocols, not a specific protocol.  And what
you're saying is that a PCE can advertise using the relevant IGP's
mechanism.  In that case, I think you'd say "the IGP's advertisement
and discovery mechanism".  (Unless somehow IS-IS and OSPF are seen as
variants of the same protocol, which can generically be called IGP.)

   A new
   capability flag bit for the PCE-CAP-FLAGS sub-TLV that can be
   announced as attribute to distribute PCEP security support
   information is proposed in [I-D.wu-pce-discovery-pceps-support]

s/announced as attribute/announced as an attribute/.

But you don't want to say "is proposed in ..." because that suggests
that the proposal might not be approved, and you've already positively
stated "A PCE can advertise ...".  So you want to say "A new
capability flag ... is defined in ..." -- and raise
draft-wu-pce-discovery-pceps-support to a normative reference.

Similar considerations apply to discovery via DNS
(draft-wu-pce-dns-pce-discovery) -- you want to mention it here and
consider it a normative reference.

-- Unless you choose to make this part of the section clearly
hypothetical by starting "This document does not specify any method a
PCE can advertise that it supports (or requires) PCEPS, but two
mechanisms have been proposed:"

   When DNS is used by a PCC (or a PCE acting as a client, for the rest
   of the section, PCC refers to both) willing to use PCEPS to locate an
   appropriate PCE [I-D.wu-pce-dns-pce-discovery], the PCC as an
   initiating entity, chooses at least one of the returned FQDNs to
   resolve, which it does by performing DNS "A" or "AAAA" lookups on the
   FDQN.

s/FDQN/FQDN/

This one sentence uses the terms "acting as a client" and "as an
initiating entity" to mean the same thing.  You should fix on one
term.  And given that the same concept arises in the discussion of TLS
initiation (section 3.2), you probably want to define the term for "a
PCC (or a PCE acting as a client)" near the beginning as document-wide
terminology.  Once you've got names for the concepts of the initiating
entity and the receiving entity, a number of things in the document
can then be stated more clearly.

   If the PCC receives a response to its SRV query but it is not able to
   establish a PCEPS connection using the data received in the response,
   as initiating entity it MAY fall back to lookup a PCE that uses TCP
   as transport.

This is unclear -- if the process of resolving the original FQDN into
addresses fails to produce an address that can be contacted, how can
the PCC "fall back to lookup a PCE that uses TCP as transport" -- it has
already done the looking up, and that failed.

I suspect you mean that the PCC is required to first attempt to
contact each address using TLS, and then only if all of those attempts
fail is it then permitted to fall back to using TCP.  But you don't
actually say that.

5.  Backward Compatibility

It would help if this section gave a more comprehensive discussion of
how PCEPS-supporting PCEs/PCCs and non-PCEPS-supporting PCEs/PCCs can
interwork, i.e., how to incrementally deploy PCEPS into an AS.  The
two major points seem to be (1) arranging that any two elements will
communicate with the highest level of security that they both
implement, and (2) any system of PCEPS-supporting and
non-PCEPS-supporting elements can interwork successfully.  There
probably are some "interesting" management and security issues
involved in this.

6.2.  New Error-Values

I've noted above that the function of Error-Type=TBA2/Error-Value=2
seems to duplicate that of Error-Type=1/Error-Value=1.

The meaning of Error-Type=TBA2 is named "StartTLS Failure" here, but
the rest of the text uses "StartTLS failure".  The table given in RFC
5440 section 7.15 is not consistent about capitalization in the names
of Error-Types, but most entries do not capitalize non-initial words.
That suggests "StartTLS failure" should be used here.

7.  Security Considerations

There needs to be some consideration of interoperation of mixed
PCEPS-capable and non-PCEPS-capable elements (unless such mixtures are
NOT RECOMMENDED).

8.1.  Control of Function and Policy

   A PCEP implementation SHOULD allow configuring the following PCEP
   security parameters:

   o  StartTLSWait timer value

   PCEPS implementations MAY provide ...

If I read this correctly, there is only one security parameter in this
list.  But since the text says "the following PCEP security
parameters:", on my first reading, I assumed that "PCEPS
implementation MAY provide ..."  was the beginning of a second item
(with the initial "o" omitted).

   provide ways for the operator to complete the following tasks:

It looks like all of the following tasks are with regard to a selected
PCEP session, though only the first task is labeled as such, whereas
the 2nd through 4th are not.  It seems like you want to say "to
complete the following tasks in regard to any PCEP session:" and
change the 1st to "Determine if the session is protected via PCEPS."

8.2.  Information and Data Models

   The PCEP MIB module SHOULD be extended to include PCEPS capabilities,
   information, and status.

This isn't a "SHOULD" because it isn't a constraint on
implementations, it's a statement of what would be a desirable action
by the IETF. -- Unless the idea is that the implementor SHOULD add a
(necessarily proprietary) extension to the MIB.  In any case, RFC 7420
should be referenced.)

8.4.  Verify Correct Operations

This section title is a verb phrase while the rest of the titles are
noun phrases.  Perhaps "Verification of Correct Operations".

8.5.  Requirements on Other Protocols

   Mechanisms defined in this document do not imply any new requirements
   on other protocols.

There is a correlated discovery mechanism:
draft-wu-pce-discovery-pceps-support defines a correlated change to
OSPF and IS-IS.  I suppose that isn't *required* by this document, as
draft-wu-pce-dns-pce-discovery or configuration might be used.  But
conceptually, the two discovery mechanisms are implied by this
document.

10.1.  Normative References

It seems to me that draft-wu-pce-discovery-pceps-support and
draft-wu-pce-dns-pce-discovery should be considered normative
references.



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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/jgURWdHnBJuchhyxzvCl_oZ5rVM>
Subject: [Pce] PCC deletion of PCE-Initiated LSP
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Dear all,
draft-ietf-pce-pce-initiated-lsp discusses the behavior of the PCC when the=
 PCEP session to PCE times out and specifies the State Timeout after which =
PCC can remove the LSPs instantiated by this PCE.

However, there are situations where the PCC may want to remove LSPs initiat=
ed by the PCE while the PCEP session is UP. This can be due to maintenance =
operation that requires restarting of a process, other than the PCEP proces=
s, on the router and which means those LSPs are deprogrammed for a period o=
f time.

In a case like this, it would help if PCC reports this to PCE. One way this=
 could be done is by sending a PCRpt message with the following Operational=
 bit set in the LSP object:

3 - GOING-DOWN:  LSP is being torn down, resources are being
         released.

This can be done together with the R-bit (Remove flag) set in the LSP objec=
t. In other words, it is the same report sent by PCC to delete a PCC-Initia=
ted LSP. PCE may decide to schedule a new PCInitiate message later on or wa=
it for the operator intervention.

An alternative is to define a new status flag in the PCRpt message for PCC =
to inform PCE of this situation.

I appreciate any thoughts into this issue.

Regards,
Mustapha.


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">draft-ietf-pce-pce-initiated-lsp discusses the behavi=
or of the PCC when the PCEP session to PCE times out and specifies the Stat=
e Timeout after which PCC can remove the LSPs
 instantiated by this PCE. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">However, there are situations where the PCC may want =
to remove LSPs initiated by the PCE while the PCEP session is UP. This can =
be due to maintenance operation that requires
 restarting of a process, other than the PCEP process, on the router and wh=
ich means those LSPs are deprogrammed for a period of time.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">In a case like this, it would help if PCC reports thi=
s to PCE. One way this could be done is by sending a PCRpt message with the=
 following Operational bit set in the LSP object:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">3 - GOING-DOWN:&nbsp; LSP is being torn down, =
resources are being<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; released.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">This can be done together with the R-bit (Remove flag=
) set in the LSP object. In other words, it is the same report sent by PCC =
to delete a PCC-Initiated LSP. PCE may decide
 to schedule a new PCInitiate message later on or wait for the operator int=
ervention.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">An alternative is to define a new status flag in the =
PCRpt message for PCC to inform PCE of this situation.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">I appreciate any thoughts into this issue.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">Mustapha.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>
To: "TEAS WG (teas@ietf.org)" <teas@ietf.org>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
CC: "teas-chairs@ietf.org" <teas-chairs@ietf.org>, "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Slides for Joint Yang WG session in Prague
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Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 20:53:47 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Slides for Joint Yang WG session in Prague
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A reminder: please send slides by the end of the day tomorrow.

Cheers

Matt

> All,
>=20
> A reminder for folks presenting in the joint yang session in Prague:
> please send slides by the end of Friday so that we can get them posted
> well in advance.
>=20
> The agenda is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/99/agenda/teas/
> (second session).
>=20
> Cheers
>=20
> Matt/Lou/Pavan
>=20
>=20
> > All,
> >
> > Once again, we'll be having a joint Yang session. This time, TEAS is
> > hosting, which means I get to organize the agenda.
> >
> > We're meeting at 13:30 - 15:30 on Thursday July 20th. Please send slot
> > requests for the TEAS session to me by the end of the day on Monday,
> > July 3rd (that's next week). Note that this is also the deadline for
> > draft submission.
> >
> > We'll need slides for presentation by Friday, July 14th so that we can
> > get them ready to present over the weekend.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Matt/Lou/Pavan


From nobody Mon Jul 17 02:27:48 2017
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From: Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 14:57:40 +0530
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Subject: [Pce] Status update on WG Draft <draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-auto-bandwidth>
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--001a11400caeafd11605548002f0
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Hi WG,

The following is a status update of the AUTO-BW WG document:

Current Status:
o   Addressed outstanding review comments from Adrian (e.g., added separate
down-adjustment-interval and down-adjustment-threshold parameters).
o   Added missing default values for parameters.
o   Added minimum-threshold as a suppression parameter for percentage
threshold.
o   Various editorial changes.

Open Issues:
o   None.

Next Steps:
o   Authors believe the document is ready and requesting WG LC.
o   Welcome your review comments and suggestions.

Diff:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-auto-bandwidth-03&url2=draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-auto-bandwidth-05

Thanks,
Dhruv / Rakesh

--001a11400caeafd11605548002f0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&quot;tr=
ebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)"><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t">Hi WG,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default">The following is a status update of the AUTO-BW WG document:</div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Curr=
ent Status:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default">o =C2=A0 Addressed outstandin=
g review comments from Adrian (e.g., added separate down-adjustment-interva=
l and down-adjustment-threshold parameters).</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt">o =C2=A0 Added missing default values for parameters.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default">o =C2=A0 Added minimum-threshold as a suppression parame=
ter for percentage threshold.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default">o =C2=A0 Va=
rious editorial changes.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default">Open Issues:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default">o =
=C2=A0 None.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default">Next Steps:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default">o =C2=A0 Authors=
 believe the document is ready and requesting WG LC.</div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default">o =C2=A0 Welcome your review comments and suggestions.</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Diff:=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-pce-stateful-p=
ce-auto-bandwidth-03&amp;url2=3Ddraft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-auto-bandwidth-=
05">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-auto-ba=
ndwidth-03&amp;url2=3Ddraft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-auto-bandwidth-05</a><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><span style=3D"font-size:small">=C2=A0</=
span><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Thanks,</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default">Dhruv / Rakesh</div></div></div>

--001a11400caeafd11605548002f0--


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/LKsonDdI3gIhd3FNix2xtUTEjZg>
Subject: [Pce] Comments on draft-ietf-pce-pcep-exp-codepoints
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Hi,

Per the chairs' request today, I had another look at the experimental
codepoints draft, draft-ietf-pce-pcep-exp-codepoints-01/. Sorry to
entirely rewrite your draft ;-)

My meta point that I have raised before is that I think you are
assigning way too many experimental code points. I do not want to be
blocking on WG process on this point and will accept that I am in the
rough *if* the chairs believe that that is the case. The background to
my thought is BCP 82 that says:
   In many, if not most cases, reserving a single value for experimental
   use will suffice.  While it may be tempting to reserve more in order
   to make it easy to test many things at once, reserving many may also
   increase the temptation for someone using a particular value to
   assume that a specific experimental value can be used for a given
   purpose exclusively.
I agree that one code point is probably limiting, but I also think that
* 4 messages
* 8 objects
* 8 TLVs
would be at the high end of what is needed.

The other points are below.

Thanks,
Adrian

---
Metadata

I think you are changing an existing registry definition. This is 
different from making an allocation from a registry, so you are
updating the RFC that created the registry.  You need to add the
"Updates: RFC 5440" text.

---

Title

s/for/for the/

---

Abstract

s/IETF Consensus/IETF Review/

---

Abstract

OLD
   This document seeks to mark some codepoints for experimental usage of
   PCEP.
NEW
   This document updates RFC 5440 by changing the allocation policies 
   for these three registries to mark some of the code points as assigned
   for Experimental Use.
END                                              

---

Requirements Language

I don't think you need 2119 language in this document. See my comments 
on Section 5.

---

1.  Introduction

   The Path Computation Element communication Protocol (PCEP) provides
   mechanisms for Path Computation Elements (PCEs) to perform path
   computations in response to Path Computation Clients (PCCs) requests.

This is a somewhat old definition of PCEP that doesn't account for
delegation and PCE-initiated LSPs.

---

1.  Introduction

   In section 9 of [RFC5440], IANA assigns values to the PCEP protocol
   parameters (messages, objects, TLVs).  IANA established a new top-
   level registry to contain all PCEP codepoints and sub-registries.
   The allocation policy for each new registry is by IETF Consensus as
   described in [RFC8126].  Specifically, new assignments are made via
   RFCs approved by the IESG.  Typically, the IESG will seek input on
   prospective assignments from appropriate persons (e.g., a relevant
   Working Group if one exists).  Early allocation [RFC7120] provides
   some latitude for allocation of these code points, but is reserved
   for features that are considered appropriately stable.

I'm not sure you should seek to redefine "IETF Consensus". The citation
of 8126 should be enough and you can cut the paragraph there.

Anyway
s/IETF Consensus/IETF Review/

---

1.  Introduction

   With some recent advancement, there is an enhanced need to experiment
   with PCEP.  It is often necessary to use some sort of number or
   constant in order to actually test or experiment with the new
   function, even when testing in a closed environment.  In order to run
   experiment, it is important that the value won't collide not only
   with existing codepoints but any future allocation.

s/run experiment/run experiments/

---

1.  Introduction

OLD
   This document thus set apart some codepoints in PCEP registry and
   subregistries for experimental usage.
NEW
   This document updates [RFC5440] by changing the allocation policies 
   for these three registries to mark some of the code points as 
   assigned for Experimental Use.  See [RFC3692] for further discussion
   of the use of experimental codepoints.
END

---

2.  PCEP Messages

OLD
   Some codepoints are requested to be set aside for experimentation
   with new PCEP messages.  The suggested range is 246-255.
NEW
   PCEP message types are in the range 0 to 255.  This document sets
   aside message types 246-255 for experimentation as described in
   Section 6.1.
END

---

3.  PCEP Objects

OLD
   Some codepoints are requested to be set aside for experimentation
   with new PCEP objects.  The suggested range is 224-255.
NEW
   PCEP objects are identified by values in the range 0 to 255.  This
   document sets aside object identifiers 224-255 for experimentation as
   described in Section 6.2.
END

---

4.  PCEP TLVs

OLD
   Some codepoints are requested to be set aside for experimentation
   with new PCEP TLVs.  The suggested range is 65280-65535.
NEW
   PCEP TLV type codes are in the range 0 to 65535.  This document sets 
   aside object identifiers 65280-65535 for experimentation as described
   in Section 6.3.
END

---

OLD
5.  Handling of unknown experimentation
NEW
5.  Handling of Unknown Experimentation
END

---

5.  Handling of unknown experimentation

OLD
   A PCE that does not recognize an experimental PCEP object, MUST
   reject the entire PCEP message and MUST send a PCE error message with
   Error- Type="Unknown Object" or "Not supported object", defined as
   per [RFC5440].
NEW
   A PCE that does not recognize an experimental PCEP object, will 
   reject the entire PCEP message and send a PCE error message with
   Error- Type="Unknown Object" or "Not supported object" as described 
   in [RFC5440].
END

---

6.1.  New PCEP Messages

OLD
   Upon approval of this document, IANA is requested to make the
   following allocations:

               +---------+-------------+-------------------+
               |   Type  | Description | Allocation Policy |
               +---------+-------------+-------------------+
               | 246-255 | Unassigned  | Experimental Use  |
               +---------+-------------+-------------------+
NEW
   IANA is requested to change the registration procedure for this
   registry to read as follows:

   0-245   IETF Review
   246-255 Experimental Use

   IANA is also requested to mark the values 246-255 in the registry
   accordingly.
END

---

6.2.  New PCEP Objects

OLD
   Upon approval of this document, IANA is requested to make the
   following allocations:

               +---------+-------------+-------------------+
               |   Type  | Description | Allocation Policy |
               +---------+-------------+-------------------+
               | 224-255 | Unassigned  | Experimental Use  |
               +---------+-------------+-------------------+
NEW
   IANA is requested to change the registration procedure for this
   registry to read as follows:

   0-245   IETF Review
   224-255 Experimental Use

   IANA is also requested to mark the values 224-255 in the registry
   accordingly.
END

---

6.3.  New PCEP TLVs

OLD
   Upon approval of this document, IANA is requested to make the
   following allocations:

             +------------+-------------+-------------------+
             |      Type  | Description | Allocation Policy |
             +------------+-------------+-------------------+
             |65280-65535 | Unassigned  | Experimental Use  |
             +------------+-------------+-------------------+
NEW
   IANA is requested to change the registration procedure for this
   registry to read as follows:

   0-65279     IETF Review
   65280-65535 Experimental Use

   IANA is also requested to mark the values 65280-65535 in the registry
   accordingly.
END

---

DELETE
7.  Allocation Policy

   The allocation policy for the IANA request in Section 6 is
   "Experimental".  As per [RFC8126], IANA does not record specific
   assignments for any particular use for this policy.

   As the experiment/standard progress and an early IANA allocation or
   RFC publication happens, the IANA defined codepoints are used and
   experimental code points are freed up.
END

NOTE
   The meaning of the first paragraph is now achieved in Section 6.
   The second paragraph is ambiguous as experimental codepoints are
   not "freed up" in any sense that the IETF can be aware of.
END

---

8.  Security Considerations

ADD   
   [RFC3692] asserts that the existence of experimental code points 
   introduce no new security considerations.  However, implementations
   accepting experimental codepoints need to take care in how they parse
   and process the messages, objects, and TLVs in case they come,
   accidentally from another experiment.
END

---

10.1.  Normative References

DELETE
   [RFC2119]  Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate
              Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119,
              DOI 10.17487/RFC2119, March 1997,
              <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc2119>.
END

---

10.2.  Informative References

Add RFC 3692

---

Appendix A.  Other Codepoints

Was this intended to be "Other PCEP Registries"?

---


From nobody Thu Jul 20 01:28:14 2017
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Subject: [Pce] My Comment on draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid
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Hi,

The discussion during the meeting suggests that I need to clarify my
comment about draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid.

This I-D is very similar to draft-ietf-pce-wson-rwa-ext, which addresses
the exact same problem over a slightly different WDM label space
(running a side-by-side diff between them appears to be very practical).
This new I-D requests the creation of one object and 3 TLVs, which are
identical to the ones created in the WSON.
As a result, I believe the latter should be reused as a starting popint.
Covering the flexi-grid case may just need to allocate new flag in the
object header to identify the WDM type we're dealing with, and document
the flexi-grid-specific assumptions (if any).

Thanks,

Julien


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From: Leeyoung <leeyoung@huawei.com>
To: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org" <draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: My Comment on draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:41:15 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Pce] My Comment on draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid
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From: Zhenghaomian <zhenghaomian@huawei.com>
To: Leeyoung <leeyoung@huawei.com>, Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>,  "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org" <draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: My Comment on draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid
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From: Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:47:36 +0530
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Subject: [Pce] PCE WG Minutes.
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Hi WG,

The draft minutes for the PCE WG session are uploaded.

https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/minutes/minutes-99-pce-00.txt

Please reply, if there any corrections.

Thanks to all, who contributed on etherpad.

Thanks!
Dhruv

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&quot;tr=
ebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)">Hi WG,=C2=A0</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&quot;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(12,52,61)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:&quot;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)">The draft=
 minutes for the PCE WG session are uploaded.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:&quot;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:r=
gb(12,52,61)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font color=3D"#0c343d=
" face=3D"trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceed=
ings/99/minutes/minutes-99-pce-00.txt">https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/=
minutes/minutes-99-pce-00.txt</a></font><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&quot;trebu=
chet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)">Please reply, if there any co=
rrections.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&qu=
ot;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&quot;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif=
;color:rgb(12,52,61)">Thanks to all, who contributed on etherpad.=C2=A0</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&quot;trebuchet ms&quot=
;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:&quot;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)"=
>Thanks!=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&quot=
;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)">Dhruv</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&quot;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif=
;color:rgb(12,52,61)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:&quot;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)"><br></div><=
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Subject: Re: [Pce]  =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBNeSBDb21tZW50IG9uIGRyYWZ0LWxlZS1wY2Ut?= =?utf-8?q?flexible-grid?=
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    <font face="Tahoma">Hi all,<br>
      <br>
      the description of the available spectrum in
      draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid should in my opinion be consistent
      with the available spectrum<br>
      description in draft-ietf-ccamp-flexible-grid-ospf-ext. Please
      note that the available spectrum is advertised in terms of
      available central<br>
      frequencies!<br>
      <br>
      A central frequency f_c is available only if the spectrum is
      available in the interval [f_c - f_minSlotWidth/2, fc + f_minSlotWidth/2]<br>
      <br>
      If the flexgrid granularity is 6.25GHz and the minSlotWidth is
      12.5GHz this means leads to: [f_c - 6.25GHz, f_c + 6.25 GHz]<br>
      <br>
      This is different from advertising spectrum slots like for example
      [f_c_n-1, fc_n].<br>
      <br>
      Please note that a modulated optical carrier occupies spectrum
      symmetrical around the central frequency.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Thanks,<br>
      Dieter<br>
      <br>
    </font><br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20.07.2017 11:04, Zhenghaomian
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:E0C26CAA2504C84093A49B2CAC3261A43A29D4B3@DGGEML503-MBX.china.huawei.com">
      <pre wrap="">Hi, Julien and Young, 

I fully agree on that we should try our best on reusing the existing object/TLVs. FYI, when we are working on GMPLS extensions from fixed-grid (WSON) to flexi-grid, we have some TLVs in parallel (switching types) for fixed/flexi-grid. 

I assume this is exactly what we are doing in this draft, the split occurs when it is difficult to use existing TLV to represent the new features. In some cases, the meaning of flags/TLVs need to be changed to support different scenarios, so the similarity on object does not necessarily mean the equivalent on functionality. 

My 2 cents, 
Haomian

-----ʼԭ-----
: Pce [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]  Leeyoung
ʱ: 2017720 16:41
ռ: Julien Meuric; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org">draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org</a>
: Re: [Pce] My Comment on draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid

Hi Julien,

I agree. A New flag on the object header (WA Object, I assume that is what you are pointing to) where we have a flag to indicate if this is fixed (WSON) or flexi-grid is reasonable instead of creating a new object for a new Spectrum Assignment Object.

TLVs require a bit different encoding due to the nature of additional parameters for flexi-grid. So strict re-use of WSON TLV may not be sufficient for some cases in flexi-grid. 

Best regards,
Young

-----Original Message-----
From: Julien Meuric [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com">mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com</a>] 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 10:28 AM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org">draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org</a>
Subject: My Comment on draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid

Hi,

The discussion during the meeting suggests that I need to clarify my comment about draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid.

This I-D is very similar to draft-ietf-pce-wson-rwa-ext, which addresses the exact same problem over a slightly different WDM label space (running a side-by-side diff between them appears to be very practical).
This new I-D requests the creation of one object and 3 TLVs, which are identical to the ones created in the WSON.
As a result, I believe the latter should be reused as a starting popint.
Covering the flexi-grid case may just need to allocate new flag in the object header to identify the WDM type we're dealing with, and document the flexi-grid-specific assumptions (if any).

Thanks,

Julien

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Dieter,=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I agree. I=
n this draft, we refer to
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-flexible-grid-ospf-=
ext-09#section-4.1.1">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-flexible-grid-ospf-ext-09#sect=
ion-4.1.1</a> for the available spectrum encoding. Is this what you are ref=
erring to, or more than that?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thanks.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Young<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtex=
t"> Dieter Beller [mailto:Dieter.Beller@nokia.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Zhenghaomian &lt;zhenghaomian@huawei.com&gt;; Leeyoung &lt;leeyo=
ung@huawei.com&gt;; Julien Meuric &lt;julien.meuric@orange.com&gt;; pce@iet=
f.org; draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] </span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:11=
.0pt;color:windowtext">=B4=F0=B8=B4</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">: My Comment on=
 draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">Hi all,<br>
<br>
the description of the available spectrum in draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid sh=
ould in my opinion be consistent with the available spectrum<br>
description in draft-ietf-ccamp-flexible-grid-ospf-ext. Please note that th=
e available spectrum is advertised in terms of available central<br>
frequencies!<br>
<br>
A central frequency f_c is available only if the spectrum is available in t=
he interval [f_c - f_minSlotWidth/2, fc &#43; f_minSlotWidth/2]<br>
<br>
If the flexgrid granularity is 6.25GHz and the minSlotWidth is 12.5GHz this=
 means leads to: [f_c - 6.25GHz, f_c &#43; 6.25 GHz]<br>
<br>
This is different from advertising spectrum slots like for example [f_c_n-1=
, fc_n].<br>
<br>
Please note that a modulated optical carrier occupies spectrum symmetrical =
around the central frequency.<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Dieter<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 20.07.2017 11:04, Zhenghaomian wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Hi, Julien and Young, <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I fully agree on that we should try our best on reusing the existing o=
bject/TLVs. FYI, when we are working on GMPLS extensions from fixed-grid (W=
SON) to flexi-grid, we have some TLVs in parallel (switching types) for fix=
ed/flexi-grid. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I assume this is exactly what we are doing in this draft, the split oc=
curs when it is difficult to use existing TLV to represent the new features=
. In some cases, the meaning of flags/TLVs need to be changed to support di=
fferent scenarios, so the similarity on object does not necessarily mean th=
e equivalent on functionality. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>My 2 cents, <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Haomian<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE</span>-----<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span>: Pce [<a href=3D"mailto=
:pce-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <span lang=3D"ZH-CN=
">=B4=FA=B1=ED</span> Leeyoung<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4</span>: 2017<span lang=
=3D"ZH-CN">=C4=EA</span>7<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=D4=C2</span>20<span lang=3D"=
ZH-CN">=C8=D5</span> 16:41<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span>: Julien Meuric; <a href=
=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-lee-pce-=
flexible-grid@ietf.org">draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=D6=F7=CC=E2</span>: Re: [Pce] My Comment on draf=
t-lee-pce-flexible-grid<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi Julien,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I agree. A New flag on the object header (WA Object, I assume that is =
what you are pointing to) where we have a flag to indicate if this is fixed=
 (WSON) or flexi-grid is reasonable instead of creating a new object for a =
new Spectrum Assignment Object.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>TLVs require a bit different encoding due to the nature of additional =
parameters for flexi-grid. So strict re-use of WSON TLV may not be sufficie=
nt for some cases in flexi-grid. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Young<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: Julien Meuric [<a href=3D"mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com">mailt=
o:julien.meuric@orange.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 10:28 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailt=
o:draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org">draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.or=
g</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: My Comment on draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The discussion during the meeting suggests that I need to clarify my c=
omment about draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This I-D is very similar to draft-ietf-pce-wson-rwa-ext, which address=
es the exact same problem over a slightly different WDM label space (runnin=
g a side-by-side diff between them appears to be very practical).<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>This new I-D requests the creation of one object and 3 TLVs, which are=
 identical to the ones created in the WSON.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As a result, I believe the latter should be reused as a starting popin=
t.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Covering the flexi-grid case may just need to allocate new flag in the=
 object header to identify the WDM type we're dealing with, and document th=
e flexi-grid-specific assumptions (if any).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Julien<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Pce mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:Pce@ietf.org">Pce@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce">https://www.ietf=
.org/mailman/listinfo/pce</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Pce mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:Pce@ietf.org">Pce@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce">https://www.ietf=
.org/mailman/listinfo/pce</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
Dieter Beller <br>
Open Agent &amp; Routing Project Manager <br>
IP/Optical Networks, Optics, Nokia <br>
<br>
t: &#43;49 711 821 43125 | m : &#43;49 175 7266874 | OnNet: 259 43125 <br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Dieter.Beller@nokia.com">Dieter.Beller@nokia.com</a> <o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,sans-serif">Alcatel-Lucent Deutschland AG | Lorenzstr. 10 | 70435 =
Stuttgart
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
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X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; AM5PR0701MB1825; 3: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
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: AM5PR0701MB1825:
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; AM5PR0701MB1825; 25: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X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; AM5PR0701MB1825; 20: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
X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:(278178393323532)(133145235818549)(26388249023172)(236129657087228)(50582790962513)(82608151540597)(48057245064654)(148574349560750)(18271650672692)(247924648384137);
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: <AM5PR0701MB18251DFF605925E60FCA1701E2A70@AM5PR0701MB1825.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000700101)(100105000095)(100000701101)(100105300095)(100000702101)(100105100095)(6040450)(601004)(2401047)(2017060910075)(8121501046)(5005006)(93006095)(93001095)(3002001)(100000703101)(100105400095)(10201501046)(6055026)(6041248)(201703131423075)(201702281528075)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123558100)(20161123564025)(20161123562025)(20161123555025)(20161123560025)(6072148)(100000704101)(100105200095)(100000705101)(100105500095); SRVR:AM5PR0701MB1825; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000800101)(100110000095)(100000801101)(100110300095)(100000802101)(100110100095)(100000803101)(100110400095)(100000804101)(100110200095)(100000805101)(100110500095); SRVR:AM5PR0701MB1825; 
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X-Forefront-PRVS: 0374433C81
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Subject: Re: [Pce]  =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBNeSBDb21tZW50IG9uIGRyYWZ0LWxlZS1wY2Ut?= =?utf-8?q?flexible-grid?=
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    <font face="Tahoma">Hi Young,<br>
    </font><br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20.07.2017 11:41, Leeyoung wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E172B3EEBE0@SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi
            Dieter,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I
            agree. In this draft, we refer to
            <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-flexible-grid-ospf-ext-09#section-4.1.1"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-flexible-grid-ospf-ext-09#section-4.1.1</a>
            for the available spectrum encoding. Is this what you are
            referring to, or more than that?
          </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    [DB&gt;] no, I am exactly referring to
    draft-ietf-ccamp-flexible-grid-ospf-ext that is referenced in your
    pce draft.<br>
    [DB&gt;] I just wanted to point out that you have to clearly define
    what a frequency slot is as it could be interpreted in<br>
    [DB&gt;] different ways (see below).<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Dieter<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E172B3EEBE0@SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Young<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">
                Dieter Beller [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Dieter.Beller@nokia.com">mailto:Dieter.Beller@nokia.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:35 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Zhenghaomian <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:zhenghaomian@huawei.com">&lt;zhenghaomian@huawei.com&gt;</a>;
                Leeyoung <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com">&lt;leeyoung@huawei.com&gt;</a>; Julien Meuric
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com">&lt;julien.meuric@orange.com&gt;</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org">draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] </span><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:windowtext" lang="ZH-CN">答复</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">:
                My Comment on draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">Hi all,<br>
            <br>
            the description of the available spectrum in
            draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid should in my opinion be
            consistent with the available spectrum<br>
            description in draft-ietf-ccamp-flexible-grid-ospf-ext.
            Please note that the available spectrum is advertised in
            terms of available central<br>
            frequencies!<br>
            <br>
            A central frequency f_c is available only if the spectrum is
            available in the interval [f_c - f_minSlotWidth/2, fc +
            f_minSlotWidth/2]<br>
            <br>
            If the flexgrid granularity is 6.25GHz and the minSlotWidth
            is 12.5GHz this means leads to: [f_c - 6.25GHz, f_c + 6.25
            GHz]<br>
            <br>
            This is different from advertising spectrum slots like for
            example [f_c_n-1, fc_n].<br>
            <br>
            Please note that a modulated optical carrier occupies
            spectrum symmetrical around the central frequency.<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            Thanks,<br>
            Dieter<br>
            <br>
          </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 20.07.2017 11:04, Zhenghaomian wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre>Hi, Julien and Young, <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>I fully agree on that we should try our best on reusing the existing object/TLVs. FYI, when we are working on GMPLS extensions from fixed-grid (WSON) to flexi-grid, we have some TLVs in parallel (switching types) for fixed/flexi-grid. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>I assume this is exactly what we are doing in this draft, the split occurs when it is difficult to use existing TLV to represent the new features. In some cases, the meaning of flags/TLVs need to be changed to support different scenarios, so the similarity on object does not necessarily mean the equivalent on functionality. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>My 2 cents, <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Haomian<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----<span lang="ZH-CN">邮件原件</span>-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><span lang="ZH-CN">发件人</span>: Pce [<a href="mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <span lang="ZH-CN">代表</span> Leeyoung<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><span lang="ZH-CN">发送时间</span>: 2017<span lang="ZH-CN">年</span>7<span lang="ZH-CN">月</span>20<span lang="ZH-CN">日</span> 16:41<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><span lang="ZH-CN">收件人</span>: Julien Meuric; <a href="mailto:pce@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">pce@ietf.org</a>; <a href="mailto:draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><span lang="ZH-CN">主题</span>: Re: [Pce] My Comment on draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>Hi Julien,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>I agree. A New flag on the object header (WA Object, I assume that is what you are pointing to) where we have a flag to indicate if this is fixed (WSON) or flexi-grid is reasonable instead of creating a new object for a new Spectrum Assignment Object.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>TLVs require a bit different encoding due to the nature of additional parameters for flexi-grid. So strict re-use of WSON TLV may not be sufficient for some cases in flexi-grid. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Young<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>From: Julien Meuric [<a href="mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 10:28 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To: <a href="mailto:pce@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">pce@ietf.org</a>; <a href="mailto:draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Subject: My Comment on draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>Hi,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>The discussion during the meeting suggests that I need to clarify my comment about draft-lee-pce-flexible-grid.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>This I-D is very similar to draft-ietf-pce-wson-rwa-ext, which addresses the exact same problem over a slightly different WDM label space (running a side-by-side diff between them appears to be very practical).<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>This new I-D requests the creation of one object and 3 TLVs, which are identical to the ones created in the WSON.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>As a result, I believe the latter should be reused as a starting popint.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Covering the flexi-grid case may just need to allocate new flag in the object header to identify the WDM type we're dealing with, and document the flexi-grid-specific assumptions (if any).<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>Julien<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Pce mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a href="mailto:Pce@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Pce@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Pce mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a href="mailto:Pce@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Pce@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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--_000_7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E172B3EEC38SJCEML702CHMchi_--


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From: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
To: "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
CC: "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 15:22:28 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/TXS2v8tXWCxXmp8Vxx59K2dOwCg>
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Dear PCE WG

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally=
 provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and a=
dded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This h=
as added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed =
by the network management plane.

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP -=
 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  There=
 were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

*        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP's path instantiation capabi=
lity so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop a=
long the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.

*        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and T=
E information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replace=
s the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.

*        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configura=
tion to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, pre=
fix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed int=
o the IGPs.

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which the=
re is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the curren=
t network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in =
the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working g=
roup.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want t=
o take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether =
we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates o=
n specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the "thin end of =
the wedge".  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP wil=
l replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We nee=
d to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that=
 direction.

2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type =
of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can =
of course extend the charter.

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this=
 direction, and how far we should go.

I am hoping to get more than just "yes" or "no" answers to this question (a=
lthough that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear justifi=
cations for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run PCEP =
in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to solve =
the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  What ha=
rm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated with a=
dding these functions to PCEP?

Many thanks
Jon


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear PCE WG<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussio=
n about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions=
 that are traditionally provided by the routing and signalling protocols.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of provi=
ding a distributed path computation service.&nbsp; In recent years we have =
extended that mission, and added path modification and path instantiation c=
apabilities to PCEP.&nbsp; This has added capabilities
 to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed by the network manage=
ment plane.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more=
 capabilities to PCEP &#8211; capabilities that are traditionally part of r=
outing and signalling.&nbsp; There were three examples of this in the PCE w=
orking group meeting this week.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP&#8217=
;s path instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-t=
o-end by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This replaces the function=
 already provided by RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to =
allow link state and TE information to be communicated from the network to =
the PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding function provided by t=
he IGPs, or BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow =
device-level configuration to be communicated between the network and the P=
CE, such as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again, this replaces functions th=
at are already designed into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of =
being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.&nbsp; With these proposals, one can env=
ision a network in which there is no traditional control plane.&nbsp; PCEP =
is used to communicate the current network state
 and to program flows.&nbsp; These proposals have their roots in the ACTN a=
nd PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working group.&nbsp=
; TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want to tak=
e PCEP in.&nbsp; However, there are two procedural
 issues, as I see it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE W=
G about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have had a=
 few lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases repres=
ent the &#8220;thin end of the wedge&#8221;.&nbsp; If
 we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the f=
unctions available in the traditional control plane.&nbsp; We need to test =
whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction=
.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>We do not currently have a charter that allows us t=
o add this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Depending on the outcome of di=
scussion (1), we can of course extend the charter.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This email is to initiate the discussion (1).&nbsp; =
So, please reply to the mailing list and share your thoughts on whether PCE=
P should be extended in this direction, and how far we should go.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am hoping to get more than just &#8220;yes&#8221; =
or &#8220;no&#8221; answers to this question (although that would be better=
 than no answer).&nbsp; I would like to hear justifications for or against.=
&nbsp; Such as, which production networks would run PCEP in place of
 a traditional control plane?&nbsp; Why is it not desirable to solve the pr=
oblems in those networks with the traditional control plane?&nbsp; What har=
m could this do?&nbsp; What would be the operational problems associated wi=
th adding these functions to PCEP?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Many thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jon<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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</html>

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To: pce@ietf.org
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From: Ramon Casellas <ramon.casellas@cttc.es>
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 18:46:52 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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On 7/20/2017 5:22 PM, Jonathan Hardwick wrote:
>
> 1.We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether 
> we want to take PCEP in this direction. We have had a few lively 
> debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the 
> thin end of the wedge. If we start down this path then we are 
> accepting that PCEP will replace the functions available in the 
> traditional control plane. We need to test whether there is a 
> consensus in the working group to move in that direction.
>
>
> This email is to initiate the discussion (1). So, please reply to the 
> mailing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be 
> extended in this direction, and how far we should go.
>

Hi all,

Just my two cents, trying not to elaborate too much. In short, my answer 
is yes.

The main disclaimer is that it is a view from a research/experimental 
perspective. I am aware of the functional implications, separation of 
concerns, functions, etc. and in previous meetings we have had several 
(heated :) discussions on this.

We have a (proprietary) implementation which, in the last years, has 
morphed/grown into the likes of an SDN controller e.g., an optical SDN 
controller for fixed and flexi-grid networks. It can be deployed 
directly over a GMPLS control plane or in PCECC mode. We have running 
implementations of PCEP-LS, PCE-CC and an ACTN proof-of-concept for 
multi-domain flexi-grid networks (base on active, stateful, hierarchical 
PCE).

The main driver/motivation has been convenience, in a clearly 
evolutionary approach (adding two wheels and an engine to the bicycle to 
make it a car). We have been influenced by SDN/Centralized control 
concepts. In most cases we needed to implement a message exchange and 
PCEP (beyond its original intent) provided such length-delimited 
reliable message exchange between entities. We have implemented BGP-LS 
but I see no reason why PCEP cannot be extended for the same (PCEP-LS) 
being almost functionally equivalent. We also had a modified OpenFlow 
for optical networks as SBI, (pre-ONF work adapting CFLOW_MOD) but 
PCE-CC also allows us to program roughly the same equivalent 
cross-connects. Having a single unified framework (PCEP) is very useful 
for robustness, avoid code duplication, etc., along with unified session 
management, parsers, tests, etc.

IMHO, with the stateful PCE work we already went beyond the basic path 
computation service.

Best regards
Ramon

-- 
Ramon Casellas, Ph.D. -- Senior Researcher -- Networks Division
Optical Networks and Systems Department -- http://www.cttc.es/people/rcasellas/
CTTC - Centre Tecnolgic de Telecomunicacions de Catalunya
Parc Mediterrani de la Tecnologia (PMT) - Edifici B4
Av. Carl Friedrich Gauss, 7 - 08860 Castelldefels (Barcelona) - Spain
Tel.: +34 93 645 29 00 ext 2168 -- Fax. +34 93 645 29 01


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/20/2017 5:22 PM, Jonathan Hardwick
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
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        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
            style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt
              &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">
            </span></span><!--[endif]-->We have not had an explicit
          discussion in the PCE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in
          this direction. We have had a few lively debates on specific
          cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the thin end
          of the wedge. If we start down this path then we are
          accepting that PCEP will replace the functions available in
          the traditional control plane. We need to test whether there
          is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
            style="mso-list:Ignore"></span><o:p> <br>
          </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">This email is to initiate the discussion
          (1). So, please reply to the mailing list and share your
          thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction,
          and how far we should go.<o:p></o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Hi all,<br>
    <br>
    Just my two cents, trying not to elaborate too much. In short, my
    answer is yes.<br>
    <br>
    The main disclaimer is that it is a view from a
    research/experimental perspective. I am aware of the functional
    implications, separation of concerns, functions, etc. and in
    previous meetings we have had several (heated :) discussions on
    this.<br>
    <br>
    We have a (proprietary) implementation which, in the last years, has
    morphed/grown into the likes of an SDN controller e.g., an optical
    SDN controller for fixed and flexi-grid networks. It can be
    deployed directly over a GMPLS control plane or in PCECC mode. We
    have running implementations of PCEP-LS, PCE-CC and an ACTN
    proof-of-concept for multi-domain flexi-grid networks (base on
    active, stateful, hierarchical PCE).<br>
    <br>
    The main driver/motivation has been convenience, in a clearly
    evolutionary approach (adding two wheels and an engine to the
    bicycle to make it a car). We have been influenced by
    SDN/Centralized control concepts. In most cases we needed to
    implement a message exchange and PCEP (beyond its original intent)
    provided such length-delimited reliable message exchange between
    entities. We have implemented BGP-LS but I see no reason why PCEP
    cannot be extended for the same (PCEP-LS) being almost functionally
    equivalent. We also had a modified OpenFlow for optical networks as
    SBI, (pre-ONF work adapting CFLOW_MOD) but PCE-CC also allows us to
    program roughly the same equivalent cross-connects. Having a single
    unified framework (PCEP) is very useful for robustness, avoid code
    duplication, etc., along with unified session management, parsers,
    tests, etc.<br>
    <br>
    IMHO, with the stateful PCE work we already went beyond the basic
    path computation service.<br>
    <br>
    Best regards<br>
    Ramon<br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Ramon Casellas, Ph.D. -- Senior Researcher -- Networks Division
Optical Networks and Systems Department -- <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.cttc.es/people/rcasellas/">http://www.cttc.es/people/rcasellas/</a>
CTTC - Centre Tecnolgic de Telecomunicacions de Catalunya
Parc Mediterrani de la Tecnologia (PMT) - Edifici B4
Av. Carl Friedrich Gauss, 7 - 08860 Castelldefels (Barcelona) - Spain
Tel.: +34 93 645 29 00 ext 2168 -- Fax. +34 93 645 29 01 </pre>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/jX7G1HIJ2Zl7gajsR7YJv8S2lW4>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Hi,
=20
Ramon's last line for me is the core of the argument.
=20
> IMHO, with the stateful PCE work we already went beyond the basic
> path computation service.
=20
You might recall (if you are old and carry a grudge) that I was not an
enthusiast for stateful active PCE (i.e., PCInitiate), but like the good =
soldier
I am, I bowed to IETF consensus and PCE is what it is. More importantly, =
PCEP is
what it is.
=20
IM(not-very)HO we have already crossed the line and PCEP *is* an SDN =
controller
(southbound) protocol.
=20
Now the question is: what do we want to be able to do with it?
=20
Obviously, as editor of draft-ietf-teas-pce-central-control, I support =
PCE-CC.
As discussed in the meeting, I'm not so happy with the mechanisms in the =
current
solutions drafts. This is because I believe we can actually do (or =
almost do)
most of the function with existing messages and objects. But that is a =
question
of detail, not principle.
=20
I would argue that this PCE-CC function doesn't "replace" RSVP-TE, but =
rather it
replaces other configuration or SDN southbound protocols.=20
=20
Cheers,
Adrian
=20
From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ramon Casellas
Sent: 20 July 2017 17:47
To: pce@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
=20
On 7/20/2017 5:22 PM, Jonathan Hardwick wrote:
1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about =
whether we
want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates =
on
specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the =93thin end =
of the
wedge=94.  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP =
will replace
the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We need to =
test
whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that =
direction.



This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the =
mailing
list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this
direction, and how far we should go.

Hi all,

Just my two cents, trying not to elaborate too much. In short, my answer =
is yes.

The main disclaimer is that it is a view from a research/experimental
perspective. I am aware of the functional implications, separation of =
concerns,
functions, etc. and in previous meetings we have had several (heated  :)
discussions on this.

We have a (proprietary) implementation which, in the last years, has
morphed/grown into the likes of an SDN controller e.g., an optical SDN
controller for fixed and flexi-grid networks.  It can be deployed =
directly over
a GMPLS control plane or in PCECC mode. We have running implementations =
of
PCEP-LS, PCE-CC and an ACTN proof-of-concept for multi-domain flexi-grid
networks (base on active, stateful, hierarchical PCE).

The main driver/motivation has been convenience, in a clearly =
evolutionary
approach (adding two wheels and an engine to the bicycle to make it a =
car). We
have been influenced by SDN/Centralized control concepts. In most cases =
we
needed to implement a message exchange and PCEP (beyond its original =
intent)
provided such length-delimited reliable message exchange between =
entities. We
have implemented BGP-LS but I see no reason why PCEP cannot be extended =
for the
same (PCEP-LS) being almost functionally equivalent. We also had a =
modified
OpenFlow for optical networks as SBI, (pre-ONF work adapting CFLOW_MOD) =
but
PCE-CC also allows us to program roughly the same equivalent =
cross-connects.
Having a single unified framework (PCEP) is very useful for robustness, =
avoid
code duplication, etc., along with unified session management, parsers, =
tests,
etc.
=20
IMHO, with the stateful PCE work we already went beyond the basic path
computation service.

Best regards
Ramon



--=20
Ramon Casellas, Ph.D. -- Senior Researcher -- Networks Division
Optical Networks and Systems Department -- =
http://www.cttc.es/people/rcasellas/
CTTC - Centre Tecnol=F2gic de Telecomunicacions de Catalunya
Parc Mediterrani de la Tecnologia (PMT) - Edifici B4
Av. Carl Friedrich Gauss, 7 - 08860 Castelldefels (Barcelona) - Spain
Tel.: +34 93 645 29 00 ext 2168 -- Fax. +34 93 645 29 01=20

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-GB link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" =
style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Ramon's last line for =
me is the core of the argument.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>&gt; IMHO, with the =
stateful PCE work we already went beyond the =
basic<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>&gt; path computation =
service.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>You might recall (if =
you are old and carry a grudge) that I was not an enthusiast for =
stateful active PCE (i.e., PCInitiate), but like the good soldier I am, =
I bowed to IETF consensus and PCE is what it is. More importantly, PCEP =
is what it is.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>IM(not-very)HO we have =
already crossed the line and PCEP *is* an SDN controller (southbound) =
protocol.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Now the question is: =
what do we want to be able to do with it?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Obviously, as editor =
of draft-ietf-teas-pce-central-control, I support PCE-CC. As discussed =
in the meeting, I'm not so happy with the mechanisms in the current =
solutions drafts. This is because I believe we can actually do (or =
almost do) most of the function with existing messages and objects. But =
that is a question of detail, not principle.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>I would argue that =
this PCE-CC function doesn't &quot;replace&quot; RSVP-TE, but rather it =
replaces other configuration or SDN southbound protocols. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B'> Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ramon =
Casellas<br><b>Sent:</b> 20 July 2017 17:47<br><b>To:</b> =
pce@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller =
protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>On 7/20/2017 5:22 =
PM, Jonathan Hardwick wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'>1.<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>We have not had an =
explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in =
this direction.&nbsp; We have had a few lively debates on specific =
cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the &#8220;thin end of =
the wedge&#8221;.&nbsp; If we start down this path then we are accepting =
that PCEP will replace the functions available in the traditional =
control plane.&nbsp; We need to test whether there is a consensus in the =
working group to move in that direction.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![if =
!supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![endif]><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>This email is to initiate the discussion (1).&nbsp; =
So, please reply to the mailing list and share your thoughts on whether =
PCEP should be extended in this direction, and how far we should =
go.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'><br>Hi all,<br><br>Just my two cents, =
trying not to elaborate too much. In short, my answer is yes.<br><br>The =
main disclaimer is that it is a view from a research/experimental =
perspective. I am aware of the functional implications, separation of =
concerns, functions, etc. and in previous meetings we have had several =
(heated&nbsp; :) discussions on this.<br><br>We have a (proprietary) =
implementation which, in the last years, has morphed/grown into the =
likes of an SDN controller e.g., an optical SDN controller for fixed and =
flexi-grid networks.&nbsp; It can be deployed directly over a GMPLS =
control plane or in PCECC mode. We have running implementations of =
PCEP-LS, PCE-CC and an ACTN proof-of-concept for multi-domain flexi-grid =
networks (base on active, stateful, hierarchical PCE).<br><br>The main =
driver/motivation has been convenience, in a clearly evolutionary =
approach (adding two wheels and an engine to the bicycle to make it a =
car). We have been influenced by SDN/Centralized control concepts. In =
most cases we needed to implement a message exchange and PCEP (beyond =
its original intent) provided such length-delimited reliable message =
exchange between entities. We have implemented BGP-LS but I see no =
reason why PCEP cannot be extended for the same (PCEP-LS) being almost =
functionally equivalent. We also had a modified OpenFlow for optical =
networks as SBI, (pre-ONF work adapting CFLOW_MOD) but PCE-CC also =
allows us to program roughly the same equivalent cross-connects. Having =
a single unified framework (PCEP) is very useful for robustness, avoid =
code duplication, etc., along with unified session management, parsers, =
tests, etc.<br>&nbsp;<br>IMHO, with the stateful PCE work we already =
went beyond the basic path computation service.<br><br>Best =
regards<br>Ramon<br><br style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![if =
!supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></=
p><pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Ramon Casellas, Ph.D. -- Senior =
Researcher -- Networks Division<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Optical Networks =
and Systems Department -- <a =
href=3D"http://www.cttc.es/people/rcasellas/">http://www.cttc.es/people/r=
casellas/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>CTTC - Centre Tecnol=F2gic de =
Telecomunicacions de Catalunya<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Parc Mediterrani de =
la Tecnologia (PMT) - Edifici B4<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Av. Carl Friedrich =
Gauss, 7 - 08860 Castelldefels (Barcelona) - =
Spain<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Tel.: +34 93 645 29 00 ext 2168 -- Fax. +34 =
93 645 29 01 <o:p></o:p></pre></div></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0D01_01D3019A.E384F810--



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From: "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>
To: "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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--_000_5D805A6E0D414529B54D42244FCC7F99telefonicacom_
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Hi,

Having arrived to the PCEverse later than most of you, I must say my impres=
sion is exactly the same. I remember asking my colleagues who were already =
involved why we were not using the term SDN when it became common and, in f=
act, referencing our PCE implementation in the list of our SDN projects.

As Adrian says, the question is what do we want to be able to do with this =
"recently discovered=94 SDN protocol...

Be goode,

On 20 Jul 2017, at 21:58 , Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian=
@olddog.co.uk>> wrote:

Hi,

Ramon's last line for me is the core of the argument.

> IMHO, with the stateful PCE work we already went beyond the basic
> path computation service.

You might recall (if you are old and carry a grudge) that I was not an enth=
usiast for stateful active PCE (i.e., PCInitiate), but like the good soldie=
r I am, I bowed to IETF consensus and PCE is what it is. More importantly, =
PCEP is what it is.

IM(not-very)HO we have already crossed the line and PCEP *is* an SDN contro=
ller (southbound) protocol.

Now the question is: what do we want to be able to do with it?

Obviously, as editor of draft-ietf-teas-pce-central-control, I support PCE-=
CC. As discussed in the meeting, I'm not so happy with the mechanisms in th=
e current solutions drafts. This is because I believe we can actually do (o=
r almost do) most of the function with existing messages and objects. But t=
hat is a question of detail, not principle.

I would argue that this PCE-CC function doesn't "replace" RSVP-TE, but rath=
er it replaces other configuration or SDN southbound protocols.

Cheers,
Adrian

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ramon Casellas
Sent: 20 July 2017 17:47
To: pce@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

On 7/20/2017 5:22 PM, Jonathan Hardwick wrote:
1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether =
we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates o=
n specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the =93thin end o=
f the wedge=94.  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP=
 will replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We=
 need to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in =
that direction.


This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this=
 direction, and how far we should go.

Hi all,

Just my two cents, trying not to elaborate too much. In short, my answer is=
 yes.

The main disclaimer is that it is a view from a research/experimental persp=
ective. I am aware of the functional implications, separation of concerns, =
functions, etc. and in previous meetings we have had several (heated  :) di=
scussions on this.

We have a (proprietary) implementation which, in the last years, has morphe=
d/grown into the likes of an SDN controller e.g., an optical SDN controller=
 for fixed and flexi-grid networks.  It can be deployed directly over a GMP=
LS control plane or in PCECC mode. We have running implementations of PCEP-=
LS, PCE-CC and an ACTN proof-of-concept for multi-domain flexi-grid network=
s (base on active, stateful, hierarchical PCE).

The main driver/motivation has been convenience, in a clearly evolutionary =
approach (adding two wheels and an engine to the bicycle to make it a car).=
 We have been influenced by SDN/Centralized control concepts. In most cases=
 we needed to implement a message exchange and PCEP (beyond its original in=
tent) provided such length-delimited reliable message exchange between enti=
ties. We have implemented BGP-LS but I see no reason why PCEP cannot be ext=
ended for the same (PCEP-LS) being almost functionally equivalent. We also =
had a modified OpenFlow for optical networks as SBI, (pre-ONF work adapting=
 CFLOW_MOD) but PCE-CC also allows us to program roughly the same equivalen=
t cross-connects. Having a single unified framework (PCEP) is very useful f=
or robustness, avoid code duplication, etc., along with unified session man=
agement, parsers, tests, etc.

IMHO, with the stateful PCE work we already went beyond the basic path comp=
utation service.

Best regards
Ramon



--

Ramon Casellas, Ph.D. -- Senior Researcher -- Networks Division

Optical Networks and Systems Department -- http://www.cttc.es/people/rcasel=
las/

CTTC - Centre Tecnol=F2gic de Telecomunicacions de Catalunya

Parc Mediterrani de la Tecnologia (PMT) - Edifici B4

Av. Carl Friedrich Gauss, 7 - 08860 Castelldefels (Barcelona) - Spain

Tel.: +34 93 645 29 00 ext 2168 -- Fax. +34 93 645 29 01

_______________________________________________
Pce mailing list
Pce@ietf.org<mailto:Pce@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce

--
"Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno"

Dr Diego R. Lopez
Telefonica I+D
http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/

e-mail: diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com
Tel:    +34 913 129 041
Mobile: +34 682 051 091
----------------------------------


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--_000_5D805A6E0D414529B54D42244FCC7F99telefonicacom_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
Hi,
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Having arrived to the PCEverse later than most of you, I mu=
st say my impression is exactly the same. I remember asking my colleagues w=
ho were already involved why we were not using the term SDN when it became =
common and, in fact, referencing our
 PCE implementation in the list of our SDN projects.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">As Adrian says, the question is what do we want to be able =
to do with this &quot;recently discovered=94 SDN protocol...</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Be goode,</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 20 Jul 2017, at 21:58 , Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" class=3D"">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: Lucid=
aGrande; font-size: 11px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-we=
ight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; t=
ext-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norm=
al; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; backgr=
ound-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:=
p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Ramon's last line for m=
e is the core of the argument.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&gt; IMHO, with the sta=
teful PCE work we already went beyond the basic<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span=
></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&gt; path computation s=
ervice.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">You might recall (if yo=
u are old and carry a grudge) that I was not an enthusiast for stateful act=
ive PCE (i.e., PCInitiate), but like the good soldier I am, I bowed to IETF=
 consensus and PCE is what it is. More
 importantly, PCEP is what it is.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">IM(not-very)HO we have =
already crossed the line and PCEP *is* an SDN controller (southbound) proto=
col.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Now the question is: wh=
at do we want to be able to do with it?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Obviously, as editor of=
 draft-ietf-teas-pce-central-control, I support PCE-CC. As discussed in the=
 meeting, I'm not so happy with the mechanisms in the current solutions dra=
fts. This is because I believe we can
 actually do (or almost do) most of the function with existing messages and=
 objects. But that is a question of detail, not principle.<o:p class=3D""><=
/o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I would argue that this=
 PCE-CC function doesn't &quot;replace&quot; RSVP-TE, but rather it replace=
s other configuration or SDN southbound protocols.<span class=3D"Apple-conv=
erted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Cheers,<o:p class=3D"">=
</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Adrian<o:p class=3D""><=
/o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: blue; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196=
, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: T=
ahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; colo=
r: windowtext;" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an>Pce
 [<a href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114)=
; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<=
span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf O=
f<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Ramon
 Casellas<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2=
0 July 2017 17:47<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decora=
tion: underline;" class=3D"">pce@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span=
></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">On 7/20/2017 5:22 PM, Jonathan Hardwick wrote:<o:p class=
=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=
=3D"cite">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=3D"">
1.<span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" cl=
ass=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span></span>We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG =
about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have had a
 few lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases repres=
ent the =93thin end of the wedge=94.&nbsp; If we start down this path then =
we are accepting that PCEP will replace the functions available in the trad=
itional control plane.&nbsp; We need to test whether
 there is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction.<o:p c=
lass=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
This email is to initiate the discussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the=
 mailing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in=
 this direction, and how far we should go.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</blockquote>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" cla=
ss=3D""><br class=3D"">
Hi all,<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Just my two cents, trying not to elaborate too much. In short, my answer is=
 yes.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The main disclaimer is that it is a view from a research/experimental persp=
ective. I am aware of the functional implications, separation of concerns, =
functions, etc. and in previous meetings we have had several (heated&nbsp; =
:) discussions on this.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
We have a (proprietary) implementation which, in the last years, has morphe=
d/grown into the likes of an SDN controller e.g., an optical SDN controller=
 for fixed and flexi-grid networks.&nbsp; It can be deployed directly over =
a GMPLS control plane or in PCECC mode.
 We have running implementations of PCEP-LS, PCE-CC and an ACTN proof-of-co=
ncept for multi-domain flexi-grid networks (base on active, stateful, hiera=
rchical PCE).<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The main driver/motivation has been convenience, in a clearly evolutionary =
approach (adding two wheels and an engine to the bicycle to make it a car).=
 We have been influenced by SDN/Centralized control concepts. In most cases=
 we needed to implement a message
 exchange and PCEP (beyond its original intent) provided such length-delimi=
ted reliable message exchange between entities. We have implemented BGP-LS =
but I see no reason why PCEP cannot be extended for the same (PCEP-LS) bein=
g almost functionally equivalent.
 We also had a modified OpenFlow for optical networks as SBI, (pre-ONF work=
 adapting CFLOW_MOD) but PCE-CC also allows us to program roughly the same =
equivalent cross-connects. Having a single unified framework (PCEP) is very=
 useful for robustness, avoid code
 duplication, etc., along with unified session management, parsers, tests, =
etc.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;<br class=3D"">
IMHO, with the stateful PCE work we already went beyond the basic path comp=
utation service.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Best regards<br class=3D"">
Ramon<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Cour=
ier New';" class=3D"">-- <o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Cour=
ier New';" class=3D"">Ramon Casellas, Ph.D. -- Senior Researcher -- Network=
s Division<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Cour=
ier New';" class=3D"">Optical Networks and Systems Department -- <a href=3D=
"http://www.cttc.es/people/rcasellas/" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); t=
ext-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">http://www.cttc.es/people/rcasellas/=
</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Cour=
ier New';" class=3D"">CTTC - Centre Tecnol=F2gic de Telecomunicacions de Ca=
talunya<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Cour=
ier New';" class=3D"">Parc Mediterrani de la Tecnologia (PMT) - Edifici B4<=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Cour=
ier New';" class=3D"">Av. Carl Friedrich Gauss, 7 - 08860 Castelldefels (Ba=
rcelona) - Spain<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Cour=
ier New';" class=3D"">Tel.: &#43;34 93 645 29 00 ext 2168 -- Fax. &#43;34 9=
3 645 29 01 <o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
</div>
</div>
<span style=3D"font-family: LucidaGrande; font-size: 11px; font-style: norm=
al; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line=
-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-t=
ransform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webk=
it-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: non=
e; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">________________________________=
_______________</span><br style=3D"font-family: LucidaGrande; font-size: 11=
px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-s=
pacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text=
-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word=
-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 2=
55, 255);" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: LucidaGrande; font-size: 11px; font-style: norm=
al; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line=
-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-t=
ransform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webk=
it-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: non=
e; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Pce
 mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family: LucidaGrande; font-size: 11px=
; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spa=
cing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-i=
ndent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-s=
pacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255=
, 255);" class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Pce@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-dec=
oration: underline; font-family: LucidaGrande; font-size: 11px; font-style:=
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 line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; t=
ext-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" clas=
s=3D"">Pce@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family: LucidaGrande; font-size: 1=
1px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-=
spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; tex=
t-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; wor=
d-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, =
255, 255);" class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce" style=3D"color: rgb(1=
49, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; font-family: LucidaGrande; font-s=
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etter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: aut=
o; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb=
(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce</a><=
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text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; t=
ext-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norm=
al; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-w=
rap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-=
space;" class=3D"">
--<br class=3D"">
&quot;Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno&quot;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Dr Diego R. Lopez<br class=3D"">
Telefonica I&#43;D<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/" class=3D"">http://people.tid.=
es/diego.lopez/</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
e-mail: diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com<br class=3D"">
Tel: &nbsp; &nbsp;&#43;34 913 129 041<br class=3D"">
Mobile: &#43;34 682 051 091<br class=3D"">
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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From: Robert Varga <nite@hq.sk>
To: Ramon Casellas <ramon.casellas@cttc.es>, pce@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Hello,

On 20/07/17 18:46, Ramon Casellas wrote:
> We have implemented BGP-LS but I see no reason why PCEP cannot be
> extended for the same (PCEP-LS) being almost functionally equivalent.

With my stateful-pcep co-author hat on, I have to say this boils down to
what is really needed at the protocol layer.

At its core PCEP is BGP with RPCs on top of it. NETCONF can do the same
thing (if you add binary encoding and fix the notification model, which
is actively being done). PCEP has native binary encoding, but on the
other hand I always have to deal with the capability matrix in my parser.=


=46rom the protocol perspective, I think all we need to do is to specify
how externally-modeled data can be exchanged between PCEs/PCCs and their
discovery (which can be done in negotiation phase) -- something in the
vein of gNMI.

=46rom the architecture perspective, defining modes of operation in terms=

RPC/flooding interactions are worthwhile.

Beyond that, yes, PCEP can tunnel any sort of reasonably-sized data and
perform all sorts of client/server/proxy interactions, but is creating
an uber-protocol a good idea?

I think LSPDB and IGP information boils down to flooding, there are only
two benefits of running IGP-over-PCEP vs. PCEP+BGP/LS I can see:

1) Total event ordering
2) Single failure domain

both of which are implied by running over a single session.

Regards,
Robert


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From nobody Thu Jul 20 19:31:20 2017
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From: "Aijun Wang" <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn>
To: "'Jonathan Hardwick'" <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, <pce@ietf.org>
Cc: <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
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Hi,

=20

I support the idea of selecting PCEP as an SDN controller protocol, but =
did
not support the idea that let PCEP do all the work that IGP/BGP has
accomplished.

>From the viewpoint of network operator, we think SDN can introduce some
flexibility/controllability to our network and we think the future =
network
should be the integration of centrally control and traditional =
distributed
protocol.

And we have present CCDR(Centrally Control Dynamic Routing) (CCDR
Presentation Material
<https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-teas-sessa-13-ccdr-=
cen
trally-control-dynamic-routing-scenario-simulation-and-suggestion-01.pdf>=
 )
at IETF99 and PCE in Native IP network
<https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/98/slides/slides-98-teas-10_pce_in_nati=
ve_
ip-01.pdf>  at IETF98 in TEAS WG to introduce the idea that use PCE/SDN
controller within Native IP network and also the related PCEP extension
proposal to accomplish such aim.

Any idea is welcome to support our scenario and solution.

=20

=20

Best Regards.

=20

Aijun Wang

Network R&D and Operation Support Department

China Telecom Corporation Limited Beijing Research Institute,Beijing, =
China.

=20

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED =
Jonathan Hardwick
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2017=C4=EA7=D4=C220=C8=D5 23:22
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: pce@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: pce-chairs@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

=20

Dear PCE WG

=20

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we =
want
to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are =
traditionally
provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

=20

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed =
path
computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and
added path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  =
This
has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been =
performed
by the network management plane.

=20

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to =
PCEP =A8C
capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  =
There
were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

=A1=A4        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=A1=AFs path =
instantiation
capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching =
each
hop along the path.  This replaces the function already provided by =
RSVP-TE.

=A1=A4        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link =
state and
TE information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This
replaces the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or =
BGP-LS.

=A1=A4        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level
configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such =
as
SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already
designed into the IGPs.

=20

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a =
fully-fledged
SDN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which
there is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the
current network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their
roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the =
TEAS
working group.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction =
that
we want to take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I =
see
it.

1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about =
whether
we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively =
debates on
specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the =A1=B0thin =
end of
the wedge=A1=B1.  If we start down this path then we are accepting that =
PCEP
will replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  =
We
need to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move =
in
that direction.

2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this =
type
of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we =
can
of course extend the charter.

=20

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the
mailing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended =
in
this direction, and how far we should go.

=20

I am hoping to get more than just =A1=B0yes=A1=B1 or =A1=B0no=A1=B1 =
answers to this question
(although that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear
justifications for or against.  Such as, which production networks would =
run
PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable =
to
solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?
What harm could this do?  What would be the operational problems =
associated
with adding these functions to PCEP?

=20

Many thanks

Jon

=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DZH-CN =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>I support the idea of selecting =
PCEP as an SDN controller protocol, but did not support the idea that =
let PCEP do all the work that IGP/BGP has =
accomplished.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>From the viewpoint =
of network operator, we think SDN can introduce some =
flexibility/controllability to our network and we think the future =
network should be the integration of centrally control and traditional =
distributed &nbsp;protocol.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>And we have present =
CCDR(Centrally Control Dynamic Routing) </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>(<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-teas-sessa-1=
3-ccdr-centrally-control-dynamic-routing-scenario-simulation-and-suggesti=
on-01.pdf">CCDR Presentation Material</a>)</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'> at IETF99 and <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/98/slides/slides-98-teas-10_pce_=
in_native_ip-01.pdf">PCE in Native IP network</a></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'> at IETF98 in TEAS WG to introduce =
the idea that use PCE/SDN controller within Native IP network and also =
the related PCEP extension proposal to accomplish such aim.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>Any idea is welcome to support =
our scenario and solution.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>Best =
Regards.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>Aijun =
Wang<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>Network R&amp;D =
and Operation Support Department<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>China Telecom =
Corporation Limited Beijing Research Institute,Beijing, =
China.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div=
><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<sp=
an lang=3DEN-US>:</span></span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'> Pce =
[mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] </span><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=B4=FA=B1=ED =
</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>Jonathan =
Hardwick<br></span><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=
=E4<span lang=3DEN-US>:</span></span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'> 2017</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C4=EA<span =
lang=3DEN-US>7</span>=D4=C2<span lang=3DEN-US>20</span>=C8=D5<span =
lang=3DEN-US> 23:22<br></span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span =
lang=3DEN-US>:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> =
pce@ietf.org<br></span><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD<span =
lang=3DEN-US>:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> =
pce-chairs@ietf.org<br></span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span =
lang=3DEN-US>:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN =
controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Dear PCE WG<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>The purpose of this email is to =
initiate a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it =
to replace the functions that are traditionally provided by the routing =
and signalling protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Originally, PCEP was designed with =
the goal of providing a distributed path computation service.&nbsp; In =
recent years we have extended that mission, and added path modification =
and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp; This has added =
capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed by the =
network management plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>We are now starting to discuss =
proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP =A8C capabilities that are =
traditionally part of routing and signalling.&nbsp; There were three =
examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this =
week.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-family:Symbol'>=A1=A4</span><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=A1=AFs path =
instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end =
by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This replaces the function =
already provided by RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-family:Symbol'>=A1=A4</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link =
state and TE information to be communicated from the network to the =
PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding function provided by =
the IGPs, or BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-family:Symbol'>=A1=A4</span><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level =
configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such =
as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again, this replaces functions that are =
already designed into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>These proposals are taking PCEP in =
the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.&nbsp; With these =
proposals, one can envision a network in which there is no traditional =
control plane.&nbsp; PCEP is used to communicate the current network =
state and to program flows.&nbsp; These proposals have their roots in =
the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS =
working group.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assuming that this is the =
direction that we want to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However, there are two =
procedural issues, as I see it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>1.</span><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about =
whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have had a few =
lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases =
represent the =A1=B0thin end of the wedge=A1=B1.&nbsp; If we start down =
this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the functions =
available in the traditional control plane.&nbsp; We need to test =
whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that =
direction.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>2.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add =
this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Depending on the outcome of =
discussion (1), we can of course extend the =
charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>This email is to initiate the discussion (1).&nbsp; So, =
please reply to the mailing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP =
should be extended in this direction, and how far we should =
go.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>I am hoping to get more than just =A1=B0yes=A1=B1 or =
=A1=B0no=A1=B1 answers to this question (although that would be better =
than no answer).&nbsp; I would like to hear justifications for or =
against.&nbsp; Such as, which production networks would run PCEP in =
place of a traditional control plane?&nbsp; Why is it not desirable to =
solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control =
plane?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What would be the =
operational problems associated with adding these functions to =
PCEP?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>Many thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_00C4_01D3020C.77D335B0--


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From: Leeyoung <leeyoung@huawei.com>
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
CC: "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:01:47 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Hi,

I support PCE as an SDN controller architecture and PCEP as an SDN controll=
er protocol.

Over the course of time, PCE has evolved little by little toward SDN evolut=
ion starting from path computation function to be centrally controlled. I b=
elieve this is the first SN concept even before SDN was termed officially. =
Then we have seen the next step into more functionality given to PCEP; Stat=
eful PCE has become a tool for path provisioning. Recently, with ACTN and P=
CE CC, PCE plays more role of assigning labels and managing LSPs. The only =
missing puzzle has been centralized link-state and TE resource discovery me=
chanism which is known as PCEP-LS. Clearly, PCE is an SDN architecture and =
PCEP can become a full-fledged solution for SDN.

The advantage of PCEP-LS is as follows: As we are proposing using direct PC=
EP session to all nodes, PCEP-LS would be fastest to learn TE information. =
It is also a binary protocol which is faster than text-based. One thing to =
note for PCEP-LS, we are using LS-ID (stateful) concept where a B/W change,=
 for example, can be updated only with BW TLV without other link properties=
. This saves packet size and encoding/decoding time is faster than distribu=
ted mechanisms.

In a nutshell, I would be really excited to see PCE WG to embrace PCEP a fu=
ll-fledged SDN controller protocol and I would like to contribute with pass=
ion.

Thanks,
Young

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 5:22 PM
To: pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Dear PCE WG

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally=
 provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and a=
dded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This h=
as added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed =
by the network management plane.

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP -=
 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  There=
 were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

*        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP's path instantiation capabi=
lity so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop a=
long the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.

*        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and T=
E information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replace=
s the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.

*        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configura=
tion to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, pre=
fix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed int=
o the IGPs.

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which the=
re is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the curren=
t network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in =
the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working g=
roup.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want t=
o take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether =
we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates o=
n specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the "thin end of =
the wedge".  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP wil=
l replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We nee=
d to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that=
 direction.

2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type =
of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can =
of course extend the charter.

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this=
 direction, and how far we should go.

I am hoping to get more than just "yes" or "no" answers to this question (a=
lthough that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear justifi=
cations for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run PCEP =
in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to solve =
the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  What ha=
rm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated with a=
dding these functions to PCEP?

Many thanks
Jon


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I support PCE as an SD=
N controller architecture and PCEP as an SDN controller protocol.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Over the course of tim=
e, PCE has evolved little by little toward SDN evolution starting from path=
 computation function to be centrally controlled. I believe this is the fir=
st SN concept even before SDN was termed
 officially. Then we have seen the next step into more functionality given =
to PCEP; Stateful PCE has become a tool for path provisioning. Recently, wi=
th ACTN and PCE CC, PCE plays more role of assigning labels and managing LS=
Ps. The only missing puzzle has
 been centralized link-state and TE resource discovery mechanism which is k=
nown as PCEP-LS. Clearly, PCE is an SDN architecture and PCEP can become a =
full-fledged solution for SDN.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The advantage of PCEP-=
LS is as follows: As we are proposing using direct PCEP session to all node=
s, PCEP-LS would be fastest to learn TE information. It is also a binary pr=
otocol which is faster than text-based.
 One thing to note for PCEP-LS, we are using LS-ID (stateful) concept where=
 a B/W change, for example, can be updated only with BW TLV without other l=
ink properties. This saves packet size and encoding/decoding time is faster=
 than distributed mechanisms.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In a nutshell, I would=
 be really excited to see PCE WG to embrace PCEP a full-fledged SDN control=
ler protocol and I would like to contribute with passion.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Young<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On=
 Behalf Of
</b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 5:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> pce@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Dear PCE WG<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The purpose of this email is to=
 initiate a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to =
replace the functions that are traditionally provided by the routing and si=
gnalling protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Originally, PCEP was designed w=
ith the goal of providing a distributed path computation service.&nbsp; In =
recent years we have extended that mission, and added path modification and=
 path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp;
 This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been per=
formed by the network management plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We are now starting to discuss =
proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP &#8211; capabilities that are tr=
aditionally part of routing and signalling.&nbsp; There were three examples=
 of this in the PCE working group meeting this
 week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symb=
ol"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC proposal, whi=
ch extends PCEP&#8217;s path instantiation capability so that the PCE can p=
rovision a path end-to-end by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This =
replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symb=
ol"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCEP-LS proposal, w=
hich extends PCEP to allow link state and TE information to be communicated=
 from the network to the PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding f=
unction provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symb=
ol"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC-SR proposal e=
xtends PCEP to allow device-level configuration to be communicated between =
the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again, this =
replaces functions that are already designed
 into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">These proposals are taking PCEP=
 in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.&nbsp; With these p=
roposals, one can envision a network in which there is no traditional contr=
ol plane.&nbsp; PCEP is used to communicate the
 current network state and to program flows.&nbsp; These proposals have the=
ir roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TE=
AS working group.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assuming that this is the directi=
on that we want to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However,
 there are two procedural issues, as I see it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><span style=3D"mso-list:I=
gnore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We have not had an expl=
icit discussion in the PCE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in this di=
rection.&nbsp; We have had a few lively debates on specific cases, like PCE=
P-LS, but those cases represent the &#8220;thin
 end of the wedge&#8221;.&nbsp; If we start down this path then we are acce=
pting that PCEP will replace the functions available in the traditional con=
trol plane.&nbsp; We need to test whether there is a consensus in the worki=
ng group to move in that direction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><span style=3D"mso-list:I=
gnore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We do not currently hav=
e a charter that allows us to add this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; De=
pending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can of course extend the chart=
er.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">This email is to initiate the d=
iscussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the mailing list and share your th=
oughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction, and how far we=
 should go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I am hoping to get more than ju=
st &#8220;yes&#8221; or &#8220;no&#8221; answers to this question (although=
 that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I would like to hear justifica=
tions for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which production networks would run
 PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?&nbsp; Why is it not desirabl=
e to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plan=
e?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What would be the operational probl=
ems associated with adding these functions to PCEP?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Many thanks<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E172B3EF085SJCEML702CHMchi_--


From nobody Fri Jul 21 01:31:17 2017
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <pce@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 09:31:05 +0100
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Subject: [Pce] Some further thoughts about PCEP and SDN
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Maybe two further points to think about.

1. Students of PCE in an SDN context might like to refresh their memory of RFC
7491.

2. "PCEP is like BGP, so PCEP-LS is like BGP-LS"
I put this in quotes because I am not necessarily saying it, but it is being
said.
At a protocol level (and maybe seen from far enough away) BGP is a pretty
simple, TCP-based protocol.
So is PCEP.
Of course, PCEP is a request/response protocol, but it also has the facility for
push-mode.
BGP-LS as a concept is not just about pushing the full topology information. Of
course, you could do that, but it is not necessarily what you would want to do
in all situations. Something that BGP implementations are generally good at is
"applying policy to routing information". Something that a BGP-LS speaker may do
(especially in a TE environment) is to abstract or aggregate network information
through the application of routing policy so that the topology information
exported is in some sense limited and specific to the application of the BGP-LS
consumer (see also RFC 7926). 
Saying "I already have a PCEP implementation and I want to re-use that code" is
a reasonable thing, but implementers should be aware that the protocol may be
the smaller part of the implementation: the mapping from IGP LSDB and local TED
to the exported data may require much more code and considerably more smarts.

3. (Yes, the third of my two points)
This isn't simply a trade between BGP-LS and PCEP-LS. We are also actively
working on YANG models to describe topology (mainly in TEAS and I2RS?) so there
is also a "competition" with Netconf/YANG. Many configurable devices already
support Netconf.
I think that the existence of two mechanisms to do LS export does not predicate
against making a third. The market is already going to have to decide between
two solutions: dropping a third into the mix is not going to make anything worse
especially given the various reasons to choose between protocols.

4. (Did I say I had just two points?)
The data encoding for PCEP-LS is "interesting".
One could imagine:
- deriving a new encoding that is optimal for PCEP
- re-using the BGP-LS encodings (and so saving effort and debug for implementers
of both systems)
- re-using YANG/JSON encodings from YANG models (so saving effort, etc.)
The idea of using PCEP to move XML has been raised before.

5. (Yes, but it is my last point)
There is work proposed to give a NBI to PCE by presenting PCE requests (i.e.,
messages) using Netconf/RESTconf as an RPC with YANG-encoded requests.
This is relevant because it feeds back into the encoding issue.

All this discussion is, I think, a good thing. I don't believe it should inhibit
any of the proposed work items, but it may change how they evolve. It is
certainly important for our long-term view of PCE in an SDN world.

Enjoy!
Adrian




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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:28:51 +0200
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Hi,

=20

We crossed this bridge quite some time ago, so let=E2=80=99s just admit it =E2=98=BA

=20

1. Let=E2=80=99s be clear -=C2=A0 we are not trying to define a new =E2=80=9Choly SDN proto=
col ala OF=E2=80=9D, in most T-SDN ecosystems PCEP has been used as one of SBI=E2=80=99s=
 since the beginning.

2. PCEP creates state that is ephemeral, not a configuration in a classical=
 sense, I=E2=80=99m rather unconvinced we=E2=80=99d want to change that.

3. PCEP is not BGP can can=E2=80=99t easily be turned into kitchen sink, moreover=
 it doesn=E2=80=99t have BGP hierarchical properties. LS transport (not just TED) =
is not a trivial task, we should be rather careful.

=20

With all the above =E2=80=93 let=E2=80=99s just state the obvious and move on

 =C2=A0

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: Pce <pce-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.H=
ardwick@metaswitch.com>
Date: Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 17:22
To: "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
Cc: "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

=20

Dear PCE WG

=20

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally =
provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

=20

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and ad=
ded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This has=
 added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed by =
the network management plane.

=20

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP =E2=
=80=93 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  Ther=
e were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

=C2=B7         The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path instantiation ca=
pability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each ho=
p along the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.

=C2=B7         The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and=
 TE information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replac=
es the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.

=C2=B7         The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configu=
ration to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, pr=
efix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed int=
o the IGPs.

=20

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which ther=
e is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the current =
network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in the=
 ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working group=
.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want to tak=
e PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

1.       We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether=
 we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates o=
n specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the =E2=80=9Cthin end of=
 the wedge=E2=80=9D.  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP w=
ill replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We ne=
ed to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that=
 direction.

2.       We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type=
 of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can =
of course extend the charter.

=20

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this =
direction, and how far we should go.

=20

I am hoping to get more than just =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D answers to this que=
stion (although that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear =
justifications for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run=
 PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to s=
olve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  Wha=
t harm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated wit=
h adding these functions to PCEP?

=20

Many thanks

Jon

=20

_______________________________________________ Pce mailing list Pce@ietf.o=
rg https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce=20


--B_3583481332_2150988772
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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954=
F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0p=
t'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt=
'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0=
pt'>We crossed this bridge quite some time ago, so let=E2=80=99s just admit it </s=
pan><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"'>=E2=98=BA</span=
><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>1. Let=E2=80=99s be clear -=C2=A0 we are not trying to d=
efine a new =E2=80=9Choly SDN protocol ala OF=E2=80=9D, in most T-SDN ecosystems PCEP ha=
s been used as one of SBI=E2=80=99s since the beginning.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>2. PCEP creates state that is =
ephemeral, not a configuration in a classical sense, I=E2=80=99m rather unconvince=
d we=E2=80=99d want to change that.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>3. PCEP is not BGP can can=E2=80=99t easily be turned int=
o kitchen sink, moreover it doesn=E2=80=99t have BGP hierarchical properties. LS t=
ransport (not just TED) is not a trivial task, we should be rather careful.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Wit=
h all the above =E2=80=93 let=E2=80=99s just state the obvious and move on<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> =C2=A0<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Ch=
eers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:1=
2.0pt;color:black'>Jeff</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0p=
t 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;=
color:black'>Pce &lt;pce-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Jonathan Hardwick=
 &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, July 20,=
 2017 at 17:22<br><b>To: </b>&quot;pce@ietf.org&quot; &lt;pce@ietf.org&gt;<b=
r><b>Cc: </b>&quot;pce-chairs@ietf.org&quot; &lt;pce-chairs@ietf.org&gt;<br>=
<b>Subject: </b>[Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Dear PCE WG<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The purpose of this email is to initiate=
 a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to replace th=
e functions that are traditionally provided by the routing and signalling pr=
otocols.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Originally, PCEP was=
 designed with the goal of providing a distributed path computation service.=
&nbsp; In recent years we have extended that mission, and added path modific=
ation and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp; This has added capa=
bilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed by the network=
 management plane.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'=
>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>We are now=
 starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP =E2=80=93 capabili=
ties that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.&nbsp; There were=
 three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;=
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbo=
l'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"=
'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![e=
ndif]><span dir=3DLTR></span>The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path i=
nstantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by t=
ouching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This replaces the function already pr=
ovided by RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-lef=
t:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><sp=
an style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'f=
ont:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></span>The PCEP-LS proposal, =
which extends PCEP to allow link state and TE information to be communicated=
 from the network to the PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding fu=
nction provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagr=
aph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![=
if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ign=
ore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></span>T=
he PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configuration to be =
communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc=
.&nbsp; Again, this replaces functions that are already designed into the IG=
Ps.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>These proposals are takin=
g PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.&nbsp; With th=
ese proposals, one can envision a network in which there is no traditional c=
ontrol plane.&nbsp; PCEP is used to communicate the current network state an=
d to program flows.&nbsp; These proposals have their roots in the ACTN and P=
CECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working group.&nbsp; TEA=
S is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want to take PCEP=
 in.&nbsp; However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;ms=
o-list:l1 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.=
<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; </span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></span>We have not had an explicit=
 discussion in the PCE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in this directi=
on.&nbsp; We have had a few lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, =
but those cases represent the =E2=80=9Cthin end of the wedge=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; If we start=
 down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the functions a=
vailable in the traditional control plane.&nbsp; We need to test whether the=
re is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction.<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;ms=
o-list:l1 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.=
<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; </span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></span>We do not currently have a =
charter that allows us to add this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Dependi=
ng on the outcome of discussion (1), we can of course extend the charter.<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>This email is to initiate the d=
iscussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the mailing list and share your tho=
ughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction, and how far we s=
hould go.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>I am hoping to get =
more than just =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D answers to this question (although that=
 would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I would like to hear justifications =
for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which production networks would run PCEP in p=
lace of a traditional control plane?&nbsp; Why is it not desirable to solve =
the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?&nbsp; Wha=
t harm could this do?&nbsp; What would be the operational problems associate=
d with adding these functions to PCEP?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-l=
eft:.5in'>Many thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5=
in'>Jon<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>_____________________=
__________________________ Pce mailing list Pce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/pce <o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>

--B_3583481332_2150988772--



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From: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
To: "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/86U_Odn2WqTYfLfyTLItiI7FdaY>
Subject: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Dear PCE-ers

I don't want to distract from the SDN topic too much, but we have an import=
ant decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.

The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no way for a PCEP speaker=
 to indicate that it can't (or won't) support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.=
  It is entirely plausible that a node might not support RSVP-TE, or else h=
ave it disabled, for example in an SR-only network.

We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should be changed to allow a sp=
eaker to declare that they do or don't have support for RSVP-TE paths.  The=
re are two proposals.


1.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include =
a (new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.  If this TLV if missin=
g, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) then it=
 means that the speaker does not support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.

2.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include =
a (new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON'T support =
RSVP-TE.  If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do support R=
SVP-TE.

The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards compatible.  Any existing =
SR implementation which also supports RSVP will not currently send this new=
 capability.  So, if we make change (1) then forwards-level implementations=
 will incorrectly conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not=
 support RSVP-TE.

The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my opinion we should only d=
o something ugly with a new protocol extension if we simply can't avoid doi=
ng it.

And so the question: are there any *deployments* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP=
-TE environment that would be broken if we made change (1)?

Thanks
Jon


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear PCE-ers<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#8217;t want to distract from the SDN topic to=
o much, but we have an important decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-=
setup-type.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no=
 way for a PCEP speaker to indicate that it can&#8217;t (or won&#8217;t) su=
pport RSVP-TE as a path setup type.&nbsp; It is entirely plausible that a n=
ode might not support RSVP-TE, or else have it disabled,
 for example in an SR-only network.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should b=
e changed to allow a speaker to declare that they do or don&#8217;t have su=
pport for RSVP-TE paths.&nbsp; There are two proposals.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
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</span></span><![endif]>Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speake=
rs MUST include a (new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.&nbsp; =
If this TLV if missing, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as S=
R-CAPABILITY) then it means that the
 speaker does not support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speake=
rs MUST include a (new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if the=
y DON&#8217;T support RSVP-TE.&nbsp; If this TLV is omitted, it will be ass=
umed that they do support RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards com=
patible.&nbsp; Any existing SR implementation which also supports RSVP will=
 not currently send this new capability.&nbsp; So, if we make change (1) th=
en forwards-level implementations will incorrectly
 conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not support RSVP-TE.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my o=
pinion we should only do something ugly with a new protocol extension if we=
 simply can&#8217;t avoid doing it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And so the question: are there any *<b>deployments</=
b>* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP-TE environment that would be broken if we ma=
de change (1)?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jon<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Well, personally, if I was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each bit
flag!
I would have a Setup-Type TLV.
If that TLV is absent, RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is present, each bit means that a different setup type is supported.
 
That means...
Legacy nodes don't include the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE
Legacy nodes that receive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to the
Open (leaving a new node to re-Open for RSVP-TE only).
New nodes include the TLV and so indicate explicitly what they support.
 
I know it is late for that type of change, so how we proceed might depend on
what implementations have done already.
 
Adrian
 
From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: 21 July 2017 16:07
To: pce@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org;
draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
 
Dear PCE-ers
 
I don't want to distract from the SDN topic too much, but we have an important
decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.
 
The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no way for a PCEP speaker to
indicate that it can't (or won't) support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.  It is
entirely plausible that a node might not support RSVP-TE, or else have it
disabled, for example in an SR-only network.
 
We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should be changed to allow a speaker
to declare that they do or don't have support for RSVP-TE paths.  There are two
proposals.
 
1.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a
(new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.  If this TLV if missing, but
some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) then it means that
the speaker does not support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.
2.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a
(new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON'T support
RSVP-TE.  If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do support
RSVP-TE.
 
The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards compatible.  Any existing SR
implementation which also supports RSVP will not currently send this new
capability.  So, if we make change (1) then forwards-level implementations will
incorrectly conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not support
RSVP-TE.
 
The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my opinion we should only do
something ugly with a new protocol extension if we simply can't avoid doing it.
 
And so the question: are there any *deployments* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP-TE
environment that would be broken if we made change (1)?
 
Thanks
Jon
 

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Well, personally, if I =
was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each bit =
flag!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>I would have a =
Setup-Type TLV.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>If that TLV is absent, =
RSVP-TE is supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>If the TLV is present, =
each bit means that a different setup type is =
supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>That =
means...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Legacy nodes don't =
include the TLV and are assumed to support =
RSVP-TE<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Legacy nodes that =
receive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to the Open =
(leaving a new node to re-Open for RSVP-TE =
only).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>New nodes include the =
TLV and so indicate explicitly what they =
support.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>I know it is late for =
that type of change, so how we proceed might depend on what =
implementations have done already.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>From:</span></=
b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'> Pce =
[mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan =
Hardwick<br><b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 16:07<br><b>To:</b> pce@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> =
pce-chairs@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards =
compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear =
PCE-ers<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I don&#8217;t want to distract from the SDN topic too =
much, but we have an important decision to make about =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The shepherd =
review raised an issue that there is no way for a PCEP speaker to =
indicate that it can&#8217;t (or won&#8217;t) support RSVP-TE as a path =
setup type.&nbsp; It is entirely plausible that a node might not support =
RSVP-TE, or else have it disabled, for example in an SR-only =
network.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should be =
changed to allow a speaker to declare that they do or don&#8217;t have =
support for RSVP-TE paths.&nbsp; There are two =
proposals.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'>1.<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Change =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a (new) =
RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.&nbsp; If this TLV if =
missing, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as =
SR-CAPABILITY) then it means that the speaker does not support RSVP-TE =
as a path setup type.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'>2.<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Change =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a (new) =
RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON&#8217;T support =
RSVP-TE.&nbsp; If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do =
support RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The problem =
with (1) is that it is not backwards compatible.&nbsp; Any existing SR =
implementation which also supports RSVP will not currently send this new =
capability.&nbsp; So, if we make change (1) then forwards-level =
implementations will incorrectly conclude that such backwards-level =
implementations do not support RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The problem =
with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my opinion we should only do =
something ugly with a new protocol extension if we simply can&#8217;t =
avoid doing it.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>And so the =
question: are there any *<b>deployments</b>* of PCEP in a mixed =
SR/RSVP-TE environment that would be broken if we made change =
(1)?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jon<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0ECB_01D30252.E5CDA5F0--


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From: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
CC: "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
Thread-Index: AdMCL6Ly08SduGL5TD6iP+F1jVMo6gAGt/mAAC3GQHA=
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 08:14:58 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/swVoPjOj_wK3jhAKK-4MSNM_aoI>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Adrian,

The SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also conta=
ins information about the maximum SID depth.  However, I like your idea and=
 I think that it gives us a better way to do this without breaking backward=
s compatibility with existing SR implementations.

Suppose we introduce a setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, =
and assign a bit to each setup type.
If the TLV is absent, then RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is absent and the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is present, then RSVP-TE=
 and SR are supported.  This retains backwards compatibility with existing =
SR implementations.
If the TLV is present, then the bits indicate which setup types are support=
ed.

We would modify the LSP setup type draft to say that implementations suppor=
ting path setup types other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type TLV.

It's not exactly beautiful, but it's not as ugly as RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT.

Cheers
Jon


From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
Sent: 21 July 2017 19:55
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; pce@ietf.org; dra=
ft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.or=
g
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-i=
etf-pce-lsp-setup-type?

Well, personally, if I was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each=
 bit flag!
I would have a Setup-Type TLV.
If that TLV is absent, RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is present, each bit means that a different setup type is suppor=
ted.

That means...
Legacy nodes don't include the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE
Legacy nodes that receive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to=
 the Open (leaving a new node to re-Open for RSVP-TE only).
New nodes include the TLV and so indicate explicitly what they support.

I know it is late for that type of change, so how we proceed might depend o=
n what implementations have done already.

Adrian

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: 21 July 2017 16:07
To: pce@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.o=
rg<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-pce-segment-r=
outing@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-=
pce-lsp-setup-type?

Dear PCE-ers

I don't want to distract from the SDN topic too much, but we have an import=
ant decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.

The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no way for a PCEP speaker=
 to indicate that it can't (or won't) support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.=
  It is entirely plausible that a node might not support RSVP-TE, or else h=
ave it disabled, for example in an SR-only network.

We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should be changed to allow a sp=
eaker to declare that they do or don't have support for RSVP-TE paths.  The=
re are two proposals.


1.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include =
a (new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.  If this TLV if missin=
g, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) then it=
 means that the speaker does not support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.

2.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include =
a (new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON'T support =
RSVP-TE.  If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do support R=
SVP-TE.

The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards compatible.  Any existing =
SR implementation which also supports RSVP will not currently send this new=
 capability.  So, if we make change (1) then forwards-level implementations=
 will incorrectly conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not=
 support RSVP-TE.

The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my opinion we should only d=
o something ugly with a new protocol extension if we simply can't avoid doi=
ng it.

And so the question: are there any *deployments* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP=
-TE environment that would be broken if we made change (1)?

Thanks
Jon


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The SR-PCE-CAPABILITY =
TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also contains information about =
the maximum SID depth.&nbsp; However, I like your idea and I think that it =
gives us a better way to do this without
 breaking backwards compatibility with existing SR implementations.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Suppose we introduce a=
 setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, and assign a bit to ea=
ch setup type.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is absent, =
then RSVP-TE is supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is absent a=
nd the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is present, then RSVP-TE and SR are supported.=
&nbsp; This retains backwards compatibility with existing SR implementation=
s.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is present,=
 then the bits indicate which setup types are supported.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">We would modify the LS=
P setup type draft to say that implementations supporting path setup types =
other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type TLV.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">It&#8217;s not exactly=
 beautiful, but it&#8217;s not as ugly as RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jon<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-GB"> Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 19:55<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;; pce@=
ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-segment-ro=
uting@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Well, personally, if I=
 was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each bit flag!<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I would have a Setup-T=
ype TLV.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If that TLV is absent,=
 RSVP-TE is supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is present,=
 each bit means that a different setup type is supported.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That means...<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Legacy nodes don't inc=
lude the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Legacy nodes that rece=
ive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to the Open (leaving a n=
ew node to re-Open for RSVP-TE only).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">New nodes include the =
TLV and so indicate explicitly what they support.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I know it is late for =
that type of change, so how we proceed might depend on what implementations=
 have done already.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">From:</=
span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"> Pce [</span><a href=3D"=
mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">mail=
to:pce-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"=
>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 16:07<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast=
-language:EN-GB">pce@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:=
EN-GB">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-se=
rif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org</spa=
n></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Taho=
ma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-s=
erif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org</s=
pan></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-=
fareast-language:EN-GB">pce-chairs@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-far=
east-language:EN-GB"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draf=
t-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear PCE-ers<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#8217;t want to distract from the SDN topic to=
o much, but we have an important decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-=
setup-type.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no=
 way for a PCEP speaker to indicate that it can&#8217;t (or won&#8217;t) su=
pport RSVP-TE as a path setup type.&nbsp; It is entirely plausible that a n=
ode might not support RSVP-TE, or else have it disabled,
 for example in an SR-only network.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should b=
e changed to allow a speaker to declare that they do or don&#8217;t have su=
pport for RSVP-TE paths.&nbsp; There are two proposals.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt">1.<span style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a=
 (new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.&nbsp; If this TLV if mi=
ssing, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) the=
n it means that the speaker does not
 support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt">2.<span style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a=
 (new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON&#8217;T sup=
port RSVP-TE.&nbsp; If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do=
 support RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards com=
patible.&nbsp; Any existing SR implementation which also supports RSVP will=
 not currently send this new capability.&nbsp; So, if we make change (1) th=
en forwards-level implementations will incorrectly
 conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not support RSVP-TE.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my o=
pinion we should only do something ugly with a new protocol extension if we=
 simply can&#8217;t avoid doing it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And so the question: are there any *<b>deployments</=
b>* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP-TE environment that would be broken if we ma=
de change (1)?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jon<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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From: Robert Varga <nite@hq.sk>
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Some further thoughts about PCEP and SDN
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Some further thoughts about PCEP and SDN
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On 21/07/17 10:31, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> 5. (Yes, but it is my last point)
> There is work proposed to give a NBI to PCE by presenting PCE requests =
(i.e.,
> messages) using Netconf/RESTconf as an RPC with YANG-encoded requests.
> This is relevant because it feeds back into the encoding issue.

I would like to note that this is implemented and has been shipping in
OpenDaylight for a couple of years now.

Regards,
Robert


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From: <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
CC: "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Hi,

As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN c=
ontroller who takes decision and programs the network.
So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.

IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it's just bring a new kind o=
f LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implementing=
 hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it needs to =
program nodes in the right order to prevent transient loops...

The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and do =
we want to create a protocol that does everything , including coffee :) ?
We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has s=
trength and weaknesses and I'm not sure that we need to mimic all features =
in all protocols. What is the gain here ?
The best approach may be to use strength of protocols and use them for what=
 they are good for:
Example:
IGP has good flooding capability with "limited scale": interesting when all=
 receivers need the same information
BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and ability to target spe=
cific groups (using route targets/communities) : interesting when groups of=
 receivers need the same information
Netconf more generic and point to point
...


IMO:
do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D> This can be discussed, we already have two protoc=
ols to exchange the topology...
do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =3D> not sure, we have=
 Netconf for that.
Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic steeri=
ng on path...) ?

Brgds,

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22
To: pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Dear PCE WG

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally=
 provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and a=
dded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This h=
as added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed =
by the network management plane.

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP -=
 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  There=
 were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

*        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP's path instantiation capabi=
lity so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop a=
long the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.

*        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and T=
E information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replace=
s the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.

*        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configura=
tion to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, pre=
fix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed int=
o the IGPs.

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which the=
re is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the curren=
t network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in =
the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working g=
roup.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want t=
o take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether =
we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates o=
n specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the "thin end of =
the wedge".  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP wil=
l replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We nee=
d to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that=
 direction.

2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type =
of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can =
of course extend the charter.

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this=
 direction, and how far we should go.

I am hoping to get more than just "yes" or "no" answers to this question (a=
lthough that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear justifi=
cations for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run PCEP =
in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to solve =
the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  What ha=
rm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated with a=
dding these functions to PCEP?

Many thanks
Jon


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">As soon as we started =
with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN controller who takes de=
cision and programs the network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">So as many already men=
tioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><br>
IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it&#8217;s just bring a new =
kind of LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implem=
enting hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it nee=
ds to program nodes in the right order
 to prevent transient loops&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The question is more w=
hat is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and do we want to create a pr=
otocol that does everything , including coffee
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"> ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">We already have plenty=
 of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has strength and weaknesses=
 and I&#8217;m not sure that we need to mimic all features in all protocols=
. What is the gain here ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The best approach may =
be to use strength of protocols and use them for what they are good for:<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Example:<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">IGP has good flooding =
capability with &#8220;limited scale&#8221;: interesting when all receivers=
 need the same information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">BGP has good flooding =
capability with large scale and ability to target specific groups (using ro=
ute targets/communities) : interesting when groups of receivers need the sa=
me information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Netconf more generic a=
nd point to point<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8230;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">IMO: <o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need PCEP-LS ? =
=3D&gt; This can be discussed, we already have two protocols to exchange th=
e topology&#8230;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need to add conf=
iguration capabilities in PCEP =3D&gt; not sure, we have Netconf for that.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Why not limiting PCEP =
to path programming and path policies (traffic steering on path&#8230;) ?<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pce [mai=
lto:pce-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22<br>
<b>To:</b> pce@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Dear PCE WG<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The purpose of this email is to=
 initiate a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to =
replace the functions that are traditionally provided by the routing and si=
gnalling protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Originally, PCEP was designed w=
ith the goal of providing a distributed path computation service.&nbsp; In =
recent years we have extended that mission, and added path modification and=
 path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp;
 This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been per=
formed by the network management plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We are now starting to discuss =
proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP &#8211; capabilities that are tr=
aditionally part of routing and signalling.&nbsp; There were three examples=
 of this in the PCE working group meeting this
 week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP&#8217;s =
path instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-e=
nd by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This replaces the function al=
ready provided by RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to all=
ow link state and TE information to be communicated from the network to the=
 PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding function provided by the =
IGPs, or BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow dev=
ice-level configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE,=
 such as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again, this replaces functions that =
are already designed into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">These proposals are taking PCEP=
 in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.&nbsp; With these p=
roposals, one can envision a network in which there is no traditional contr=
ol plane.&nbsp; PCEP is used to communicate the
 current network state and to program flows.&nbsp; These proposals have the=
ir roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TE=
AS working group.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assuming that this is the directi=
on that we want to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However,
 there are two procedural issues, as I see it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We have not had an explicit discussion in the P=
CE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have h=
ad a few lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases re=
present the &#8220;thin end of the wedge&#8221;.&nbsp; If
 we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the f=
unctions available in the traditional control plane.&nbsp; We need to test =
whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We do not currently have a charter that allows =
us to add this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Depending on the outcome o=
f discussion (1), we can of course extend the charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">This email is to initiate the d=
iscussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the mailing list and share your th=
oughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction, and how far we=
 should go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I am hoping to get more than ju=
st &#8220;yes&#8221; or &#8220;no&#8221; answers to this question (although=
 that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I would like to hear justifica=
tions for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which production networks would run
 PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?&nbsp; Why is it not desirabl=
e to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plan=
e?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What would be the operational probl=
ems associated with adding these functions to PCEP?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Many thanks<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

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If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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From: Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
To: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
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Hi Stephanie,

You said:
< Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic stee=
ring on path...) ?

But why not to use for these purposes RESTCONF or gRPC/protobuffs? Do you s=
ee value in using explicit model based SBIs vs implicit (TLV-) based protoc=
ols such as  PCE?

Cheers,,
Igor


From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of stephane.litkowski@ora=
nge.com
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 8:03 AM
To: Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Hi,

As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN c=
ontroller who takes decision and programs the network.
So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.

IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it's just bring a new kind o=
f LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implementing=
 hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it needs to =
program nodes in the right order to prevent transient loops...

The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and do =
we want to create a protocol that does everything , including coffee :) ?
We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has s=
trength and weaknesses and I'm not sure that we need to mimic all features =
in all protocols. What is the gain here ?
The best approach may be to use strength of protocols and use them for what=
 they are good for:
Example:
IGP has good flooding capability with "limited scale": interesting when all=
 receivers need the same information
BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and ability to target spe=
cific groups (using route targets/communities) : interesting when groups of=
 receivers need the same information
Netconf more generic and point to point
...


IMO:
do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D> This can be discussed, we already have two protoc=
ols to exchange the topology...
do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =3D> not sure, we have=
 Netconf for that.
Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic steeri=
ng on path...) ?

Brgds,

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22
To: pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Dear PCE WG

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally=
 provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and a=
dded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This h=
as added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed =
by the network management plane.

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP -=
 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  There=
 were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

*        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP's path instantiation capabi=
lity so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop a=
long the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.

*        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and T=
E information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replace=
s the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.

*        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configura=
tion to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, pre=
fix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed int=
o the IGPs.

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which the=
re is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the curren=
t network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in =
the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working g=
roup.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want t=
o take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether =
we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates o=
n specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the "thin end of =
the wedge".  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP wil=
l replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We nee=
d to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that=
 direction.

2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type =
of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can =
of course extend the charter.

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this=
 direction, and how far we should go.

I am hoping to get more than just "yes" or "no" answers to this question (a=
lthough that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear justifi=
cations for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run PCEP =
in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to solve =
the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  What ha=
rm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated with a=
dding these functions to PCEP?

Many thanks
Jon


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

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ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Stephanie,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">You said:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&lt; </span><span styl=
e=3D"color:#1F497D">Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path poli=
cies (traffic steering on path&#8230;) ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">But why not to use for=
 these purposes RESTCONF or gRPC/protobuffs? Do you see value in using expl=
icit model based SBIs vs implicit (TLV-) based protocols such as &nbsp;PCE?=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Igor<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pce [mai=
lto:pce-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>stephane.litkowski@orange.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 24, 2017 8:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">As soon as we started =
with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN controller who takes de=
cision and programs the network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">So as many already men=
tioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><br>
IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it&#8217;s just bring a new =
kind of LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implem=
enting hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it nee=
ds to program nodes in the right order
 to prevent transient loops&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The question is more w=
hat is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and do we want to create a pr=
otocol that does everything , including coffee
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"> ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">We already have plenty=
 of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has strength and weaknesses=
 and I&#8217;m not sure that we need to mimic all features in all protocols=
. What is the gain here ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The best approach may =
be to use strength of protocols and use them for what they are good for:<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Example:<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">IGP has good flooding =
capability with &#8220;limited scale&#8221;: interesting when all receivers=
 need the same information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">BGP has good flooding =
capability with large scale and ability to target specific groups (using ro=
ute targets/communities) : interesting when groups of receivers need the sa=
me information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Netconf more generic a=
nd point to point<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8230;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">IMO: <o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need PCEP-LS ? =
=3D&gt; This can be discussed, we already have two protocols to exchange th=
e topology&#8230;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need to add conf=
iguration capabilities in PCEP =3D&gt; not sure, we have Netconf for that.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Why not limiting PCEP =
to path programming and path policies (traffic steering on path&#8230;) ?<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pce [mai=
lto:pce-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22<br>
<b>To:</b> pce@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Dear PCE WG<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The purpose of this email is to=
 initiate a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to =
replace the functions that are traditionally provided by the routing and si=
gnalling protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Originally, PCEP was designed w=
ith the goal of providing a distributed path computation service.&nbsp; In =
recent years we have extended that mission, and added path modification and=
 path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp;
 This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been per=
formed by the network management plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We are now starting to discuss =
proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP &#8211; capabilities that are tr=
aditionally part of routing and signalling.&nbsp; There were three examples=
 of this in the PCE working group meeting this
 week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP&#8217;s =
path instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-e=
nd by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This replaces the function al=
ready provided by RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to all=
ow link state and TE information to be communicated from the network to the=
 PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding function provided by the =
IGPs, or BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow dev=
ice-level configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE,=
 such as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again, this replaces functions that =
are already designed into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">These proposals are taking PCEP=
 in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.&nbsp; With these p=
roposals, one can envision a network in which there is no traditional contr=
ol plane.&nbsp; PCEP is used to communicate the
 current network state and to program flows.&nbsp; These proposals have the=
ir roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TE=
AS working group.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assuming that this is the directi=
on that we want to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However,
 there are two procedural issues, as I see it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We have not had an explicit discussion in the P=
CE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have h=
ad a few lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases re=
present the &#8220;thin end of the wedge&#8221;.&nbsp; If
 we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the f=
unctions available in the traditional control plane.&nbsp; We need to test =
whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We do not currently have a charter that allows =
us to add this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Depending on the outcome o=
f discussion (1), we can of course extend the charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">This email is to initiate the d=
iscussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the mailing list and share your th=
oughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction, and how far we=
 should go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I am hoping to get more than ju=
st &#8220;yes&#8221; or &#8220;no&#8221; answers to this question (although=
 that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I would like to hear justifica=
tions for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which production networks would run
 PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?&nbsp; Why is it not desirabl=
e to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plan=
e?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What would be the operational probl=
ems associated with adding these functions to PCEP?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Many thanks<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "Jonathan Hardwick" <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
CC: "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/1H4S4ounlruFqQrmm4XH7Om8XU8>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Thanks Jon for starting this discussion.

I agree with Stephane when saying that the decision to turn PCEP into an SD=
N protocol was already taken a while ago (with the active PCE IMHO).

What are the pros and cons of this approach, let me share some loud thinkin=
g:


  *   It could be the SBI solution for those networks where there is no con=
trol plane (e.g. many NMS driven optical networks)
  *   It could be a good alternative to Netconf/Restconf as a protocol betw=
een sdn controllers (sort of NBI). It's less configuration driven and more =
event oriented. It also has different reaction time.
  *   On the other side the market seems to be asking more for Netconf/Rest=
conf as the single protocol between SDN controller. We should try to unders=
tand if this is driven by the need for a single protocol doing everything, =
by the lack of knowledge (of PCEP as a potential SDN protocol), or other re=
asons.
  *   It could succeed where open flow failed, being the protocol that oper=
ates an heterogeneous network (where there is no control plane interoperabi=
lity and provided that readiness is done a priori via NMS).
  *   Should we adopt it just for some of the functionalities Jon listed or=
 all? Well, for some of them maybe it's not worth it?...

All in all I would say I'm leaning towards a yes (to the question in the su=
bject).

BR
Daniele

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of stephane.litkowski@ora=
nge.com
Sent: luned=EC 24 luglio 2017 14:03
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Hi,

As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN c=
ontroller who takes decision and programs the network.
So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.

IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it's just bring a new kind o=
f LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implementing=
 hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it needs to =
program nodes in the right order to prevent transient loops...

The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and do =
we want to create a protocol that does everything , including coffee :) ?
We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has s=
trength and weaknesses and I'm not sure that we need to mimic all features =
in all protocols. What is the gain here ?
The best approach may be to use strength of protocols and use them for what=
 they are good for:
Example:
IGP has good flooding capability with "limited scale": interesting when all=
 receivers need the same information
BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and ability to target spe=
cific groups (using route targets/communities) : interesting when groups of=
 receivers need the same information
Netconf more generic and point to point
...


IMO:
do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D> This can be discussed, we already have two protoc=
ols to exchange the topology...
do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =3D> not sure, we have=
 Netconf for that.
Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic steeri=
ng on path...) ?

Brgds,

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22
To: pce@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Dear PCE WG

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally=
 provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and a=
dded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This h=
as added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed =
by the network management plane.

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP -=
 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  There=
 were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

*        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP's path instantiation capabi=
lity so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop a=
long the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.

*        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and T=
E information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replace=
s the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.

*        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configura=
tion to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, pre=
fix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed int=
o the IGPs.

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which the=
re is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the curren=
t network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in =
the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working g=
roup.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want t=
o take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether =
we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates o=
n specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the "thin end of =
the wedge".  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP wil=
l replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We nee=
d to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that=
 direction.

2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type =
of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can =
of course extend the charter.

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this=
 direction, and how far we should go.

I am hoping to get more than just "yes" or "no" answers to this question (a=
lthough that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear justifi=
cations for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run PCEP =
in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to solve =
the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  What ha=
rm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated with a=
dding these functions to PCEP?

Many thanks
Jon


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">Thanks Jon for starting this discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">I agree with Stephane when saying that the decision to turn PCEP into=
 an SDN protocol was already taken a while ago (with the active PCE IMHO).<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">What are the pros and cons of this approach, let me share some loud t=
hinking:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">It could be=
 the SBI solution for those networks where there is no control plane (e.g. =
many NMS driven optical networks)<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoLis=
tParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">It could be a good alternative=
 to Netconf/Restconf as a protocol between sdn controllers (sort of NBI). I=
t&#8217;s less configuration
 driven and more event oriented. It also has different reaction time.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;ms=
o-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">On the other side the market seems to be asking more for Netconf/Rest=
conf as the single protocol between SDN controller. We should
 try to understand if this is driven by the need for a single protocol doin=
g everything, by the lack of knowledge (of PCEP as a potential SDN protocol=
), or other reasons.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" s=
tyle=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">It could succeed where open flow failed, be=
ing the protocol that operates an heterogeneous network (where there is no =
control
 plane interoperability and provided that readiness is done a priori via NM=
S).<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-le=
ft:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-l=
anguage:EN-US">Should we adopt it just for some of the functionalities Jon =
listed or all? Well, for some of them maybe it&#8217;s not worth it?...<o:p=
></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">All in all I would say I&#8217;m leaning towards a yes (to the questi=
on in the subject).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">BR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">Daniele&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
>From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>stephane.litkowski@orange.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> luned=EC 24 luglio 2017 14:03<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;; pce@=
ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, t=
he PCE became an SDN controller who takes decision and programs the network=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is alrea=
dy done.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><br>
IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it&#8217;s just bring a new =
kind of LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implem=
enting hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it nee=
ds to program nodes in the right order
 to prevent transient loops&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP =
in term of SBI and do we want to create a protocol that does everything , i=
ncluding coffee
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"> ?<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netcon=
f. Each protocol has strength and weaknesses and I&#8217;m not sure that we=
 need to mimic all features in all protocols.
 What is the gain here ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">The best approach may be to use strength of protocols=
 and use them for what they are good for:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Example:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">IGP has good flooding capability with &#8220;limited =
scale&#8221;: interesting when all receivers need the same information<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and=
 ability to target specific groups (using route targets/communities) : inte=
resting when groups of receivers need the
 same information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Netconf more generic and point to point<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">IMO:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D&gt; This can be discussed, w=
e already have two protocols to exchange the topology&#8230;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =
=3D&gt; not sure, we have Netconf for that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path po=
licies (traffic steering on path&#8230;) ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Pce [<a href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org">mai=
lto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">De=
ar PCE WG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Th=
e purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want t=
o extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally p=
rovided by the routing and signalling
 protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Or=
iginally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path c=
omputation service.&nbsp; In recent years we have extended that mission, an=
d added path modification and path instantiation
 capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp; This has added capabilities to PCEP that would=
 traditionally have been performed by the network management plane.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We=
 are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP &#8=
211; capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.&nb=
sp; There were three examples of this in the PCE
 working group meeting this week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=B7</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP&#8217;s =
path instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-e=
nd by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This replaces the function al=
ready provided by RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=B7</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to all=
ow link state and TE information to be communicated from the network to the=
 PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding function provided by the =
IGPs, or BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=B7</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow dev=
ice-level configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE,=
 such as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again, this replaces functions that =
are already designed into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Th=
ese proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN=
 protocol.&nbsp; With these proposals, one can envision a network in which =
there is no traditional control plane.&nbsp; PCEP
 is used to communicate the current network state and to program flows.&nbs=
p; These proposals have their roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures tha=
t are adopted within the TEAS working group.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assumi=
ng that this is the direction that we want
 to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However, there are two procedural issues, as I see =
it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We have not had an explicit discussion in the P=
CE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have h=
ad a few lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases re=
present the &#8220;thin end of the wedge&#8221;.&nbsp; If
 we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the f=
unctions available in the traditional control plane.&nbsp; We need to test =
whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We do not currently have a charter that allows =
us to add this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Depending on the outcome o=
f discussion (1), we can of course extend the charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Th=
is email is to initiate the discussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the m=
ailing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in t=
his direction, and how far we should go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I =
am hoping to get more than just &#8220;yes&#8221; or &#8220;no&#8221; answe=
rs to this question (although that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I=
 would like to hear justifications for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which
 production networks would run PCEP in place of a traditional control plane=
?&nbsp; Why is it not desirable to solve the problems in those networks wit=
h the traditional control plane?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What =
would be the operational problems associated with
 adding these functions to PCEP?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Ma=
ny thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jo=
n<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">____________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
__________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ce message et ses pi=
eces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegi=
ees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">pas etre diffuses, e=
xploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erre=
ur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">a l'expediteur et le=
 detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant su=
sceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Orange decline toute=
 responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p=
></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
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<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This message and its=
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
CC: "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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From: Khasanov Boris <khasanov.boris@huawei.com>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "Jonathan Hardwick" <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Thread-Topic: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Hi all,
Firstly as others said - thank you Jon for bringing it up.

My 0,05$:

1)      I also do agree with Daniele, Stephane, Adrian and others that PCEP=
 as SBI is a fact.

2)      Can PCEP be extended to some new directions? IMO - yes, why not. Su=
rely we have different protocols that my look overlapping (or competing som=
etimes), they have own pros and cons.  I think we should provide different =
options, there should be no monopoly with just one or two protocols. Stepha=
ne mentioned IGP vs. BGP example. Just for illustration, I would like to re=
mind that currently in some big DCs BGP (eBGP) is used as routing protocol =
instead of IGP, although some time ago it would be a very strange decision.

3)      So we do not have a crystal ball and we cannot say which protocol w=
ill or can prevail even in mid-term perspective. Only time will show that. =
Thus I do support our efforts for PCEP development.

Thank you.

SY,
Boris




From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniele Ceccarelli
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 3:54 PM
To: stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Thanks Jon for starting this discussion.

I agree with Stephane when saying that the decision to turn PCEP into an SD=
N protocol was already taken a while ago (with the active PCE IMHO).

What are the pros and cons of this approach, let me share some loud thinkin=
g:


  *   It could be the SBI solution for those networks where there is no con=
trol plane (e.g. many NMS driven optical networks)
  *   It could be a good alternative to Netconf/Restconf as a protocol betw=
een sdn controllers (sort of NBI). It's less configuration driven and more =
event oriented. It also has different reaction time.
  *   On the other side the market seems to be asking more for Netconf/Rest=
conf as the single protocol between SDN controller. We should try to unders=
tand if this is driven by the need for a single protocol doing everything, =
by the lack of knowledge (of PCEP as a potential SDN protocol), or other re=
asons.
  *   It could succeed where open flow failed, being the protocol that oper=
ates an heterogeneous network (where there is no control plane interoperabi=
lity and provided that readiness is done a priori via NMS).
  *   Should we adopt it just for some of the functionalities Jon listed or=
 all? Well, for some of them maybe it's not worth it?...

All in all I would say I'm leaning towards a yes (to the question in the su=
bject).

BR
Daniele

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of stephane.litkowski@ora=
nge.com<mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
Sent: luned=EC 24 luglio 2017 14:03
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com<mailto:Jonathan.Har=
dwick@metaswitch.com>>; pce@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Hi,

As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN c=
ontroller who takes decision and programs the network.
So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.

IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it's just bring a new kind o=
f LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implementing=
 hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it needs to =
program nodes in the right order to prevent transient loops...

The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and do =
we want to create a protocol that does everything , including coffee :) ?
We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has s=
trength and weaknesses and I'm not sure that we need to mimic all features =
in all protocols. What is the gain here ?
The best approach may be to use strength of protocols and use them for what=
 they are good for:
Example:
IGP has good flooding capability with "limited scale": interesting when all=
 receivers need the same information
BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and ability to target spe=
cific groups (using route targets/communities) : interesting when groups of=
 receivers need the same information
Netconf more generic and point to point
...


IMO:
do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D> This can be discussed, we already have two protoc=
ols to exchange the topology...
do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =3D> not sure, we have=
 Netconf for that.
Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic steeri=
ng on path...) ?

Brgds,

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22
To: pce@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Dear PCE WG

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally=
 provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and a=
dded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This h=
as added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed =
by the network management plane.

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP -=
 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  There=
 were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

*        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP's path instantiation capabi=
lity so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop a=
long the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.

*        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and T=
E information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replace=
s the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.

*        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configura=
tion to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, pre=
fix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed int=
o the IGPs.

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which the=
re is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the curren=
t network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in =
the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working g=
roup.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want t=
o take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether =
we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates o=
n specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the "thin end of =
the wedge".  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP wil=
l replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We nee=
d to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that=
 direction.

2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type =
of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can =
of course extend the charter.

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this=
 direction, and how far we should go.

I am hoping to get more than just "yes" or "no" answers to this question (a=
lthough that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear justifi=
cations for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run PCEP =
in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to solve =
the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  What ha=
rm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated with a=
dding these functions to PCEP?

Many thanks
Jon


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<body lang=3D"RU" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi all,=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Firstly=
 as others said &#8211; thank you Jon for bringing it up.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">My 0,05=
$:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">=
<span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New=
 Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>I also do agree with Daniele, Stephane, Adrian and others that PCEP as SBI=
 is a fact.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">=
<span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New=
 Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>Can PCEP be extended to some new directions? IMO - yes, why not. Surely we=
 have different protocols that my look overlapping (or competing sometimes)=
, they have own pros and cons. &nbsp;I think
 we should provide different options, there should be no monopoly with just=
 one or two protocols. Stephane mentioned IGP vs. BGP example. Just for ill=
ustration, I would like to remind that currently in some big DCs BGP (eBGP)=
 is used as routing protocol instead
 of IGP, although some time ago it would be a very strange decision. <o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">=
<span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New=
 Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>So we do not have a crystal ball and we cannot say which protocol will or =
can prevail even in mid-term perspective. Only time will show that. Thus I =
do support our efforts for PCEP development.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thank y=
ou.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">SY,<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Boris<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 24, 2017 3:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org<b=
r>
<b>Cc:</b> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks Jon for starting this di=
scussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I agree with Stephane when sayi=
ng that the decision to turn PCEP into an SDN protocol was already taken a =
while ago (with the active PCE IMHO).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">What are the pros and cons of t=
his approach, let me share some loud thinking:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang=3D"EN-=
US">It could be the SBI solution for those networks where there is no contr=
ol plane (e.g. many NMS driven optical networks)<o:p></o:p></span></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
It could be a good alternative to Netconf/Restconf as a protocol between sd=
n controllers (sort of NBI). It&#8217;s less configuration driven and more =
event oriented. It also has different reaction
 time.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 l=
evel1 lfo1"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On the other side the market seems to be a=
sking more for Netconf/Restconf as the single protocol between SDN controll=
er. We should try to understand if this is driven by the need for a
 single protocol doing everything, by the lack of knowledge (of PCEP as a p=
otential SDN protocol), or other reasons.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang=3D"EN-US">It co=
uld succeed where open flow failed, being the protocol that operates an het=
erogeneous network (where there is no control plane interoperability and pr=
ovided that readiness is done
 a priori via NMS).<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Should we adopt it just for s=
ome of the functionalities Jon listed or all? Well, for some of them maybe =
it&#8217;s not worth it?...<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">All in all I would say I&#8217;=
m leaning towards a yes (to the question in the subject).<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">BR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Daniele&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
>From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Pce [<a href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@i=
etf.org">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stepha=
ne.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> luned=EC 24 luglio 2017 14:03<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metasw=
itch.com">Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"IT"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, t=
he PCE became an SDN controller who takes decision and programs the network=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is alrea=
dy done.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><br>
IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it&#8217;s just bring a new =
kind of LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implem=
enting hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it nee=
ds to program nodes in the right order
 to prevent transient loops&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP =
in term of SBI and do we want to create a protocol that does everything , i=
ncluding coffee
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"> ?<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netcon=
f. Each protocol has strength and weaknesses and I&#8217;m not sure that we=
 need to mimic all features in all protocols.
 What is the gain here ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">The best approach may be to use strength of protocols=
 and use them for what they are good for:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Example:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">IGP has good flooding capability with &#8220;limited =
scale&#8221;: interesting when all receivers need the same information<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and=
 ability to target specific groups (using route targets/communities) : inte=
resting when groups of receivers need the
 same information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Netconf more generic and point to point<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">IMO:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D&gt; This can be discussed, w=
e already have two protocols to exchange the topology&#8230;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =
=3D&gt; not sure, we have Netconf for that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path po=
licies (traffic steering on path&#8230;) ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pce [<a href=3D"mailto:p=
ce-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">De=
ar PCE WG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Th=
e purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want t=
o extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally p=
rovided by the routing and signalling
 protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Or=
iginally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path c=
omputation service.&nbsp; In recent years we have extended that mission, an=
d added path modification and path instantiation
 capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp; This has added capabilities to PCEP that would=
 traditionally have been performed by the network management plane.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We=
 are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP &#8=
211; capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.&nb=
sp; There were three examples of this in the PCE
 working group meeting this week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=B7</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP&#8217;s =
path instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-e=
nd by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This replaces the function al=
ready provided by RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=B7</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to all=
ow link state and TE information to be communicated from the network to the=
 PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding function provided by the =
IGPs, or BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=B7</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow dev=
ice-level configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE,=
 such as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again, this replaces functions that =
are already designed into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Th=
ese proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN=
 protocol.&nbsp; With these proposals, one can envision a network in which =
there is no traditional control plane.&nbsp; PCEP
 is used to communicate the current network state and to program flows.&nbs=
p; These proposals have their roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures tha=
t are adopted within the TEAS working group.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assumi=
ng that this is the direction that we want
 to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However, there are two procedural issues, as I see =
it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We have not had an explicit discussion in the P=
CE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have h=
ad a few lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases re=
present the &#8220;thin end of the wedge&#8221;.&nbsp; If
 we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the f=
unctions available in the traditional control plane.&nbsp; We need to test =
whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We do not currently have a charter that allows =
us to add this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Depending on the outcome o=
f discussion (1), we can of course extend the charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Th=
is email is to initiate the discussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the m=
ailing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in t=
his direction, and how far we should go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I =
am hoping to get more than just &#8220;yes&#8221; or &#8220;no&#8221; answe=
rs to this question (although that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I=
 would like to hear justifications for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which
 production networks would run PCEP in place of a traditional control plane=
?&nbsp; Why is it not desirable to solve the problems in those networks wit=
h the traditional control plane?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What =
would be the operational problems associated with
 adding these functions to PCEP?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Ma=
ny thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jo=
n<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">____________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
__________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ce message et ses pi=
eces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegi=
ees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">pas etre diffuses, e=
xploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erre=
ur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">a l'expediteur et le=
 detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant su=
sceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Orange decline toute=
 responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p=
></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This message and its=
 attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be=
 protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">they should not be d=
istributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If you have received=
 this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and =
its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">As emails may be alt=
ered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or=
 falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thank you.<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
</div>
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From nobody Mon Jul 24 11:50:50 2017
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Jonathan Hardwick'" <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, <pce@ietf.org>,  <draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org>, <draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
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Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 19:50:36 +0100
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/0zfaD8vBdJnBTO5uP2kfCyus8Ms>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Yes to that, Jon. But what happens when the next thing comes along?
 
Since sub-TLVs can be present, I would suggest to use a Setup-Type TLV with a
bit map as I previously described in my email, and add optional sub-TLVs
dependent on the bits that are set.
 
Isn't that the best of both worlds?
 
Adrian
 
From: Jonathan Hardwick [mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com] 
Sent: 24 July 2017 09:15
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; pce@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org;
draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
 
Adrian,
 
The SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also contains
information about the maximum SID depth.  However, I like your idea and I think
that it gives us a better way to do this without breaking backwards
compatibility with existing SR implementations.
 
Suppose we introduce a setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, and
assign a bit to each setup type.
If the TLV is absent, then RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is absent and the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is present, then RSVP-TE and
SR are supported.  This retains backwards compatibility with existing SR
implementations.
If the TLV is present, then the bits indicate which setup types are supported.
 
We would modify the LSP setup type draft to say that implementations supporting
path setup types other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type TLV.
 
It's not exactly beautiful, but it's not as ugly as RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT.
 
Cheers
Jon
 
 
From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk] 
Sent: 21 July 2017 19:55
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; pce@ietf.org;
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
 
Well, personally, if I was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each bit
flag!
I would have a Setup-Type TLV.
If that TLV is absent, RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is present, each bit means that a different setup type is supported.
 
That means...
Legacy nodes don't include the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE
Legacy nodes that receive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to the
Open (leaving a new node to re-Open for RSVP-TE only).
New nodes include the TLV and so indicate explicitly what they support.
 
I know it is late for that type of change, so how we proceed might depend on
what implementations have done already.
 
Adrian
 
From: Pce [ <mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: 21 July 2017 16:07
To:  <mailto:pce@ietf.org> pce@ietf.org;
<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org>
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org;
<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org
Cc:  <mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org> pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
 
Dear PCE-ers
 
I don't want to distract from the SDN topic too much, but we have an important
decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.
 
The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no way for a PCEP speaker to
indicate that it can't (or won't) support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.  It is
entirely plausible that a node might not support RSVP-TE, or else have it
disabled, for example in an SR-only network.
 
We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should be changed to allow a speaker
to declare that they do or don't have support for RSVP-TE paths.  There are two
proposals.
 
1.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a
(new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.  If this TLV if missing, but
some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) then it means that
the speaker does not support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.
2.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a
(new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON'T support
RSVP-TE.  If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do support
RSVP-TE.
 
The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards compatible.  Any existing SR
implementation which also supports RSVP will not currently send this new
capability.  So, if we make change (1) then forwards-level implementations will
incorrectly conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not support
RSVP-TE.
 
The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my opinion we should only do
something ugly with a new protocol extension if we simply can't avoid doing it.
 
And so the question: are there any *deployments* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP-TE
environment that would be broken if we made change (1)?
 
Thanks
Jon
 

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<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Yes to that, Jon. But =
what happens when the next thing comes along?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Since sub-TLVs can be =
present, I would suggest to use a Setup-Type TLV with a bit map as I =
previously described in my email, and add optional sub-TLVs dependent on =
the bits that are set.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Isn't that the best of =
both worlds?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>From:</span></=
b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'> Jonathan =
Hardwick [mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 24 =
July 2017 09:15<br><b>To:</b> adrian@olddog.co.uk; pce@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> =
pce-chairs@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pce] Can we make a =
non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Adrian,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The SR-PCE-CAPABILITY =
TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also contains information =
about the maximum SID depth.&nbsp; However, I like your idea and I think =
that it gives us a better way to do this without breaking backwards =
compatibility with existing SR implementations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Suppose we introduce a =
setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, and assign a bit to =
each setup type.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If the TLV is absent, then RSVP-TE is =
supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If the TLV is absent and the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY =
TLV is present, then RSVP-TE and SR are supported.&nbsp; This retains =
backwards compatibility with existing SR =
implementations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If the TLV is present, then the bits indicate =
which setup types are supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>We would modify the LSP =
setup type draft to say that implementations supporting path setup types =
other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type =
TLV.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>It&#8217;s not exactly =
beautiful, but it&#8217;s not as ugly as =
RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'> Adrian =
Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk] <br><b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 =
19:55<br><b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick =
&lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;; pce@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> =
pce-chairs@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pce] Can we make a =
non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Well, personally, if I was designing this, I =
would not a whole TLV for each bit flag!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I would have a =
Setup-Type TLV.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If that TLV is absent, RSVP-TE is =
supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If the TLV is present, each bit means that a =
different setup type is supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>That =
means...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Legacy nodes don't include the TLV and are =
assumed to support RSVP-TE<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Legacy nodes that =
receive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to the Open =
(leaving a new node to re-Open for RSVP-TE =
only).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>New nodes include the TLV and so indicate =
explicitly what they support.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I know it is late for =
that type of change, so how we proceed might depend on what =
implementations have done already.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>From:</span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'> Pce [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</span>=
</a><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan =
Hardwick<br><b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 16:07<br><b>To:</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>pce@ietf.org</span></a><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org"><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf=
.org</span></a><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org"><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@iet=
f.org</span></a><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'><br><b>Cc:</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>pce-chairs@ietf.org</span></a><spa=
n lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'><br><b>Subject:</b> [Pce] Can we =
make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear =
PCE-ers<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I don&#8217;t want to distract from the SDN topic too =
much, but we have an important decision to make about =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The shepherd =
review raised an issue that there is no way for a PCEP speaker to =
indicate that it can&#8217;t (or won&#8217;t) support RSVP-TE as a path =
setup type.&nbsp; It is entirely plausible that a node might not support =
RSVP-TE, or else have it disabled, for example in an SR-only =
network.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should be =
changed to allow a speaker to declare that they do or don&#8217;t have =
support for RSVP-TE paths.&nbsp; There are two =
proposals.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'>1.<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Change =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a (new) =
RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.&nbsp; If this TLV if =
missing, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as =
SR-CAPABILITY) then it means that the speaker does not support RSVP-TE =
as a path setup type.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'>2.<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Change =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a (new) =
RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON&#8217;T support =
RSVP-TE.&nbsp; If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do =
support RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The problem =
with (1) is that it is not backwards compatible.&nbsp; Any existing SR =
implementation which also supports RSVP will not currently send this new =
capability.&nbsp; So, if we make change (1) then forwards-level =
implementations will incorrectly conclude that such backwards-level =
implementations do not support RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The problem =
with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my opinion we should only do =
something ugly with a new protocol extension if we simply can&#8217;t =
avoid doing it.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>And so the =
question: are there any *<b>deployments</b>* of PCEP in a mixed =
SR/RSVP-TE environment that would be broken if we made change =
(1)?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jon<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_114E_01D304B6.210549B0--



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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 00:12:28 +0200
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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We all know =E2=80=93 every protocol has its strong and less strong sides, howeve=
r the properties required for a distributed device2device communication are =
quite different from device2controller environment and should be evaluated a=
s such.

There=E2=80=99s a long list of pros and cons for either environments (objective f=
unctions) as well operational preferences, domain knowledge, and such

=20

Most of us here are biased =E2=98=BA=20

To put it short =E2=80=93 I believe there=E2=80=99s enough people who are interested in=
 working on PCEP to extend it, personally I see value in having PCEP next to=
 any other SBI=E2=80=99s mentioned below, however what I don=E2=80=99t want, is to overl=
oad semantics of PCEP (aka BGP kitchen sink =E2=98=BA).

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: Pce <pce-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@hu=
awei.com>
Date: Monday, July 24, 2017 at 14:52
To: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Jonath=
an Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org=
>
Cc: "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

=20

Hi Stephanie,

=20

You said:

< Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic stee=
ring on path=E2=80=A6) ?

=20

But why not to use for these purposes RESTCONF or gRPC/protobuffs? Do you s=
ee value in using explicit model based SBIs vs implicit (TLV-) based protoco=
ls such as  PCE?

=20

Cheers,,

Igor

=20

=20

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of stephane.litkowski@ora=
nge.com
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 8:03 AM
To: Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

=20

Hi,

=20

As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN c=
ontroller who takes decision and programs the network.

So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.


IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it=E2=80=99s just bring a new kind=
 of LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implementin=
g hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it needs to =
program nodes in the right order to prevent transient loops=E2=80=A6

=20

The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and do =
we want to create a protocol that does everything , including coffee J ?

We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has s=
trength and weaknesses and I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need to mimic all features=
 in all protocols. What is the gain here ?

The best approach may be to use strength of protocols and use them for what=
 they are good for:

Example:

IGP has good flooding capability with =E2=80=9Climited scale=E2=80=9D: interesting when=
 all receivers need the same information

BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and ability to target spe=
cific groups (using route targets/communities) : interesting when groups of =
receivers need the same information

Netconf more generic and point to point

=E2=80=A6

=20

=20

IMO:=20

do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D> This can be discussed, we already have two protocol=
s to exchange the topology=E2=80=A6=20

do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =3D> not sure, we have N=
etconf for that.

Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic steeri=
ng on path=E2=80=A6) ?

=20

Brgds,

=20

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22
To: pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

=20

Dear PCE WG

=20

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally =
provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

=20

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and ad=
ded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This has=
 added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed by =
the network management plane.

=20

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP =E2=
=80=93 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  Ther=
e were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

=C2=B7        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path instantiation cap=
ability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop=
 along the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.

=C2=B7        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and =
TE information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replace=
s the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.

=C2=B7        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configur=
ation to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, pre=
fix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed into=
 the IGPs.

=20

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which ther=
e is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the current =
network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in the=
 ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working group=
.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want to tak=
e PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether =
we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates on=
 specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the =E2=80=9Cthin end of =
the wedge=E2=80=9D.  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP wi=
ll replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We nee=
d to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that =
direction.

2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type =
of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can o=
f course extend the charter.

=20

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this =
direction, and how far we should go.

=20

I am hoping to get more than just =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D answers to this que=
stion (although that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear =
justifications for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run=
 PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to s=
olve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  Wha=
t harm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated wit=
h adding these functions to PCEP?

=20

Many thanks

Jon

=20
___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________
=20
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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=20
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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954=
F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0p=
t'>We all know =E2=80=93 every protocol has its strong and less strong sides, howe=
ver the properties required for a distributed device2device communication ar=
e quite different from device2controller environment and should be evaluated=
 as such.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.=
0pt'>There=E2=80=99s a long list of pros and cons for either environments (objecti=
ve functions) as well operational preferences, domain knowledge, and such<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Most =
of us here are biased </span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Appl=
e Color Emoji"'>=E2=98=BA</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>To put it short =E2=80=93 I =
believe there=E2=80=99s enough people who are interested in working on PCEP to ext=
end it, personally I see value in having PCEP next to any other SBI=E2=80=99s ment=
ioned below, however what I don=E2=80=99t want, is to overload semantics of PCEP (=
aka BGP kitchen sink </span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Apple=
 Color Emoji"'>=E2=98=BA</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>).<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Che=
ers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt=
 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;c=
olor:black'>Pce &lt;pce-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Igor Bryskin &lt;I=
gor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Monday, July 24, 2017 at 14:52<br=
><b>To: </b>&quot;stephane.litkowski@orange.com&quot; &lt;stephane.litkowski=
@orange.com&gt;, Jonathan Hardwick &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;,=
 &quot;pce@ietf.org&quot; &lt;pce@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&quot;pce-chair=
s@ietf.org&quot; &lt;pce-chairs@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Pce] PC=
EP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi Stephanie,</span=
><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'col=
or:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-lef=
t:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>You said:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&lt; Why not =
limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic steering on pat=
h=E2=80=A6) ?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><sp=
an style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>But why not to use for thes=
e purposes RESTCONF or gRPC/protobuffs? Do you see value in using explicit m=
odel based SBIs vs implicit (TLV-) based protocols such as &nbsp;PCE?</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'colo=
r:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left=
:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Cheers,,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Igor</span><o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1=
F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5i=
n'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style=3D'=
border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Beha=
lf Of </b>stephane.litkowski@orange.com<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 24, 201=
7 8:03 AM<br><b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> pce-ch=
airs@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protoco=
l?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5=
in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'marg=
in-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As soon as=
 we started with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN controller w=
ho takes decision and programs the network.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>So as many alre=
ady mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><br>IMO, PCE=
CC does not change significantly PCEP, it=E2=80=99s just bring a new kind of LSP s=
tyle for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implementing hop by =
hop path programming will require more intelligence as it needs to program n=
odes in the right order to prevent transient loops=E2=80=A6</span><o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span sty=
le=3D'color:#1F497D'>The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP in t=
erm of SBI and do we want to create a protocol that does everything , includ=
ing coffee </span><span style=3D'font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span>=
<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'> ?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>We already have plenty of pr=
otocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has strength and weaknesses and I=E2=
=80=99m not sure that we need to mimic all features in all protocols. What is th=
e gain here ?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5i=
n'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The best approach may be to use strength of p=
rotocols and use them for what they are good for:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Example:<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'>IGP has good flooding capability with =E2=80=9Climited scale=E2=80=9D: =
interesting when all receivers need the same information</span><o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>BG=
P has good flooding capability with large scale and ability to target specif=
ic groups (using route targets/communities) : interesting when groups of rec=
eivers need the same information</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Netconf more generic and p=
oint to point</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5i=
n'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=E2=80=A6</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=
&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><spa=
n style=3D'color:#1F497D'>IMO: </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D&gt; Th=
is can be discussed, we already have two protocols to exchange the topology=E2=
=80=A6 </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#1F497D'>do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =3D&=
gt; not sure, we have Netconf for that.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Why not limiting PC=
EP to path programming and path policies (traffic steering on path=E2=80=A6) ?</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'c=
olor:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-l=
eft:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Brgds,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><=
o:p></o:p></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;pa=
dding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> Pce [mailto:p=
ce-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br><b>Sent:</b> T=
hursday, July 20, 2017 17:22<br><b>To:</b> pce@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> pce-ch=
airs@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?</=
span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3D=
EN-GB>Dear PCE WG</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left=
:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The purpose of this email is to initiat=
e a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to replace t=
he functions that are traditionally provided by the routing and signalling p=
rotocols.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><=
span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin=
-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of =
providing a distributed path computation service.&nbsp; In recent years we h=
ave extended that mission, and added path modification and path instantiatio=
n capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp; This has added capabilities to PCEP that would=
 traditionally have been performed by the network management plane.</span><o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&n=
bsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities=
 to PCEP =E2=80=93 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signall=
ing.&nbsp; There were three examples of this in the PCE working group meetin=
g this week.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-le=
ft:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in'><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7<=
/span><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",=
serif'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang=3DEN-GB>Th=
e PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path instantiation capability so th=
at the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop along the pa=
th.&nbsp; This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.</span><o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.=
25in'><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang=3DEN-GB>The PCEP-LS proposal, whi=
ch extends PCEP to allow link state and TE information to be communicated fr=
om the network to the PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding funct=
ion provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListPa=
ragraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in'><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D=
'font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </=
span><span lang=3DEN-GB>The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-lev=
el configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as=
 SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again, this replaces functions that are alrea=
dy designed into the IGPs.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ma=
rgin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>These proposals are taking PCE=
P in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.&nbsp; With these p=
roposals, one can envision a network in which there is no traditional contro=
l plane.&nbsp; PCEP is used to communicate the current network state and to =
program flows.&nbsp; These proposals have their roots in the ACTN and PCECC =
architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working group.&nbsp; TEAS is =
very much assuming that this is the direction that we want to take PCEP in.&=
nbsp; However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.</span><o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in'=
><span lang=3DEN-GB>1.</span><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang=
=3DEN-GB>We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether we=
 want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have had a few lively debates=
 on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the =E2=80=9Cthin end =
of the wedge=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; If we start down this path then we are accepting that=
 PCEP will replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.=
&nbsp; We need to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to =
move in that direction.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=
=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>2.</span><span lang=
=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang=3DEN-GB>We do not currently have a cha=
rter that allows us to add this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Depending =
on the outcome of discussion (1), we can of course extend the charter.</span=
><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB=
>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><sp=
an lang=3DEN-GB>This email is to initiate the discussion (1).&nbsp; So, please=
 reply to the mailing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be=
 extended in this direction, and how far we should go.</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>I =
am hoping to get more than just =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D answers to this questi=
on (although that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I would like to hea=
r justifications for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which production networks wo=
uld run PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?&nbsp; Why is it not de=
sirable to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control=
 plane?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What would be the operational p=
roblems associated with adding these functions to PCEP?</span><o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>M=
any thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>=
<span lang=3DEN-GB>Jon</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-l=
eft:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><pre style=3D'margin-le=
ft:.5in'>___________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:.5in=
'>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confide=
ntielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'marg=
in-left:.5in'>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si v=
ous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre><p=
re style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les piec=
es jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p>=
</o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Orange decline toute responsabilit=
e si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre><p=
re style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:.=
5in'>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged=
 information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margi=
n-left:.5in'>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authoris=
ation.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>If you have received th=
is email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its =
attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>As emails may be =
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or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Thank you.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>_____________________=
__________________________ Pce mailing list Pce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/pce <o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>

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From: Zhenghaomian <zhenghaomian@huawei.com>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "Jonathan Hardwick" <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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</head>
<body lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Thanks Jon for bringing this topic, it is already a fact that peo=
ple are implementing PCEP with their controllers, as many other experts men=
tioned in previous email.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">The point I would like to raise is how to deal with PCEP with oth=
er protocols. Currently it seems that there is some competition with BGP in=
 link state (both binary but Optical/MW
 CANNOT run BGP), and also with Netconf/RESTconf on device configuration (w=
ell they are text). If we consider PCEP-LS work only, we should consider it=
 at least for optical/MW binary solution. I believe that the direction we a=
re promoting is correct for PCEP,
 i.e., make PCEP applicable in necessary network environments, rather than =
pure =A1=AEpath computation methodology=A1=AF.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Moreover, instead of PCEP-LS outcome, &nbsp;I am more interested =
in the principle behind, i.e., are we trying to construct PCEP as a fully o=
verlapping with any other protocol, or even
 a super set of them? My answer would probably be no. I think PCEP is compl=
ementary with other protocols and is only extended when there is a valid sc=
enario, and the same for other protocols (BGP, netconf=A1=AD). When we are =
promoting PCEP features (like cc, ls),
 we are not and should not be criticizing other solutions. <o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">PS: IETF was not restricting multi-protocols (ospf vs. isis=A1=AD=
) before, and it was proved to be success in my understanding.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Haomian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=
=C5=BA=DA&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-=
US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;=CE=
=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pce [mailto:pce-bounce=
s@ietf.org]
</span><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;">=B4=FA=B1=ED </span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
">Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;">=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span=
></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=
=C5=BA=DA&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> 2017</span><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C4=EA<spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">7</span>=D4=C2<span lang=3D"EN-US">24</span>=C8=D5<span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">
 20:54<br>
</span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">Thanks Jon for starting this discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">I agree with Stephane when saying that the decision to turn PCEP into=
 an SDN protocol was already taken a while ago (with the active PCE IMHO).<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">What are the pros and cons of this approach, let me share some loud t=
hinking:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-=
US"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US">It could be the SBI solution for those networks where there i=
s no control plane (e.g. many NMS driven optical networks)<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-=
US"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US">It could be a good alternative to Netconf/Restconf as a proto=
col between sdn controllers (sort of NBI). It=A1=AFs less configuration dri=
ven and more event oriented. It also has
 different reaction time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-=
US"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US">On the other side the market seems to be asking more for Netc=
onf/Restconf as the single protocol between SDN controller. We should try t=
o understand if this is driven by the
 need for a single protocol doing everything, by the lack of knowledge (of =
PCEP as a potential SDN protocol), or other reasons.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-=
US"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US">It could succeed where open flow failed, being the protocol t=
hat operates an heterogeneous network (where there is no control plane inte=
roperability and provided that readiness
 is done a priori via NMS).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-=
US"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US">Should we adopt it just for some of the functionalities Jon l=
isted or all? Well, for some of them maybe it=A1=AFs not worth it?...<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">All in all I would say I=A1=AFm leaning towards a yes (to the questio=
n in the subject).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">BR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">Daniele&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
>From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Pce [<a href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@i=
etf.org">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stepha=
ne.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> luned=A8=AC 24 luglio 2017 14:03<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metasw=
itch.com">Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"IT"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, t=
he PCE became an SDN controller who takes decision and programs the network=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is alrea=
dy done.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><br>
IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it=A1=AFs just bring a new k=
ind of LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller impleme=
nting hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it need=
s to program nodes in the right order
 to prevent transient loops=A1=AD<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP =
in term of SBI and do we want to create a protocol that does everything , i=
ncluding coffee
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"> ?<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netcon=
f. Each protocol has strength and weaknesses and I=A1=AFm not sure that we =
need to mimic all features in all protocols.
 What is the gain here ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">The best approach may be to use strength of protocols=
 and use them for what they are good for:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Example:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">IGP has good flooding capability with =A1=B0limited s=
cale=A1=B1: interesting when all receivers need the same information<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and=
 ability to target specific groups (using route targets/communities) : inte=
resting when groups of receivers need the
 same information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Netconf more generic and point to point<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">=A1=AD<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">IMO:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D&gt; This can be discussed, w=
e already have two protocols to exchange the topology=A1=AD
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =
=3D&gt; not sure, we have Netconf for that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path po=
licies (traffic steering on path=A1=AD) ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pce [<a href=3D"mailto:p=
ce-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">De=
ar PCE WG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Th=
e purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want t=
o extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally p=
rovided by the routing and signalling
 protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Or=
iginally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path c=
omputation service.&nbsp; In recent years we have extended that mission, an=
d added path modification and path instantiation
 capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp; This has added capabilities to PCEP that would=
 traditionally have been performed by the network management plane.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We=
 are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP =A8=
C capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.&nbsp;=
 There were three examples of this in the PCE
 working group meeting this week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=A1=AFs p=
ath instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-en=
d by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This replaces the function alr=
eady provided by RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to all=
ow link state and TE information to be communicated from the network to the=
 PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding function provided by the =
IGPs, or BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow dev=
ice-level configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE,=
 such as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again, this replaces functions that =
are already designed into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Th=
ese proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN=
 protocol.&nbsp; With these proposals, one can envision a network in which =
there is no traditional control plane.&nbsp; PCEP
 is used to communicate the current network state and to program flows.&nbs=
p; These proposals have their roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures tha=
t are adopted within the TEAS working group.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assumi=
ng that this is the direction that we want
 to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However, there are two procedural issues, as I see =
it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We have not had an explicit discussion in the P=
CE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have h=
ad a few lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases re=
present the =A1=B0thin end of the wedge=A1=B1.&nbsp; If
 we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the f=
unctions available in the traditional control plane.&nbsp; We need to test =
whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We do not currently have a charter that allows =
us to add this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Depending on the outcome o=
f discussion (1), we can of course extend the charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Th=
is email is to initiate the discussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the m=
ailing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in t=
his direction, and how far we should go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I =
am hoping to get more than just =A1=B0yes=A1=B1 or =A1=B0no=A1=B1 answers t=
o this question (although that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I wou=
ld like to hear justifications for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which
 production networks would run PCEP in place of a traditional control plane=
?&nbsp; Why is it not desirable to solve the problems in those networks wit=
h the traditional control plane?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What =
would be the operational problems associated with
 adding these functions to PCEP?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Ma=
ny thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jo=
n<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">____________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
__________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ce message et ses pi=
eces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegi=
ees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">pas etre diffuses, e=
xploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erre=
ur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">a l'expediteur et le=
 detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant su=
sceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Orange decline toute=
 responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p=
></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This message and its=
 attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be=
 protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">they should not be d=
istributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If you have received=
 this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and =
its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">As emails may be alt=
ered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or=
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<pre style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thank you.<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
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From: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
CC: "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/2seDlKq-P1_WMSl1CCwwudJTkCM>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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I agree that allowing optional sub-TLVs is a good thing.  However, this str=
ongly suggests that SR-PCE-CAPABILITY should become a sub-TLV, which is a n=
on-backwards compatible change.  So, we are back to my original question.

Implementers - any views?

Cheers
Jon


From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
Sent: 24 July 2017 19:51
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; pce@ietf.org; dra=
ft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.or=
g
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-i=
etf-pce-lsp-setup-type?

Yes to that, Jon. But what happens when the next thing comes along?

Since sub-TLVs can be present, I would suggest to use a Setup-Type TLV with=
 a bit map as I previously described in my email, and add optional sub-TLVs=
 dependent on the bits that are set.

Isn't that the best of both worlds?

Adrian

From: Jonathan Hardwick [mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com]
Sent: 24 July 2017 09:15
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; pce@ietf.org<mailto:pc=
e@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-l=
sp-setup-type@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org<mailto:dra=
ft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-i=
etf-pce-lsp-setup-type?

Adrian,

The SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also conta=
ins information about the maximum SID depth.  However, I like your idea and=
 I think that it gives us a better way to do this without breaking backward=
s compatibility with existing SR implementations.

Suppose we introduce a setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, =
and assign a bit to each setup type.
If the TLV is absent, then RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is absent and the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is present, then RSVP-TE=
 and SR are supported.  This retains backwards compatibility with existing =
SR implementations.
If the TLV is present, then the bits indicate which setup types are support=
ed.

We would modify the LSP setup type draft to say that implementations suppor=
ting path setup types other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type TLV.

It's not exactly beautiful, but it's not as ugly as RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT.

Cheers
Jon


From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
Sent: 21 July 2017 19:55
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com<mailto:Jonathan.Har=
dwick@metaswitch.com>>; pce@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-pce-l=
sp-setup-type@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org>; draf=
t-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@i=
etf.org>
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-i=
etf-pce-lsp-setup-type?

Well, personally, if I was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each=
 bit flag!
I would have a Setup-Type TLV.
If that TLV is absent, RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is present, each bit means that a different setup type is suppor=
ted.

That means...
Legacy nodes don't include the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE
Legacy nodes that receive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to=
 the Open (leaving a new node to re-Open for RSVP-TE only).
New nodes include the TLV and so indicate explicitly what they support.

I know it is late for that type of change, so how we proceed might depend o=
n what implementations have done already.

Adrian

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: 21 July 2017 16:07
To: pce@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.o=
rg<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-pce-segment-r=
outing@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-=
pce-lsp-setup-type?

Dear PCE-ers

I don't want to distract from the SDN topic too much, but we have an import=
ant decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.

The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no way for a PCEP speaker=
 to indicate that it can't (or won't) support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.=
  It is entirely plausible that a node might not support RSVP-TE, or else h=
ave it disabled, for example in an SR-only network.

We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should be changed to allow a sp=
eaker to declare that they do or don't have support for RSVP-TE paths.  The=
re are two proposals.


1.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include =
a (new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.  If this TLV if missin=
g, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) then it=
 means that the speaker does not support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.

2.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include =
a (new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON'T support =
RSVP-TE.  If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do support R=
SVP-TE.

The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards compatible.  Any existing =
SR implementation which also supports RSVP will not currently send this new=
 capability.  So, if we make change (1) then forwards-level implementations=
 will incorrectly conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not=
 support RSVP-TE.

The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my opinion we should only d=
o something ugly with a new protocol extension if we simply can't avoid doi=
ng it.

And so the question: are there any *deployments* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP=
-TE environment that would be broken if we made change (1)?

Thanks
Jon


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I agree that allowing =
optional sub-TLVs is a good thing.&nbsp; However, this strongly suggests th=
at SR-PCE-CAPABILITY should become a sub-TLV, which is a non-backwards comp=
atible change.&nbsp; So, we are back to my original
 question.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Implementers &#8211; a=
ny views?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jon<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-GB"> Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24 July 2017 19:51<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;; pce@=
ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-segment-ro=
uting@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Yes to that, Jon. But =
what happens when the next thing comes along?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Since sub-TLVs can be =
present, I would suggest to use a Setup-Type TLV with a bit map as I previo=
usly described in my email, and add optional sub-TLVs dependent on the bits=
 that are set.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Isn't that the best of=
 both worlds?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">From:</=
span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"> Jonathan Hardwick
 [</span><a href=3D"mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com"><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;=
mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com</span><=
/a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&=
quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24 July 2017 09:15<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-=
fareast-language:EN-GB">adrian@olddog.co.uk</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-far=
east-language:EN-GB">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:E=
N-GB">pce@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-se=
rif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org</spa=
n></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Taho=
ma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-s=
erif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org</s=
pan></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-=
fareast-language:EN-GB">pce-chairs@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-far=
east-language:EN-GB"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The SR-PCE-CAPABILITY =
TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also contains information about =
the maximum SID depth.&nbsp; However, I like your idea and I think that it =
gives us a better way to do this without
 breaking backwards compatibility with existing SR implementations.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Suppose we introduce a=
 setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, and assign a bit to ea=
ch setup type.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is absent, =
then RSVP-TE is supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is absent a=
nd the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is present, then RSVP-TE and SR are supported.=
&nbsp; This retains backwards compatibility with existing SR implementation=
s.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is present,=
 then the bits indicate which setup types are supported.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">We would modify the LS=
P setup type draft to say that implementations supporting path setup types =
other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type TLV.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">It&#8217;s not exactly=
 beautiful, but it&#8217;s not as ugly as RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jon<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-GB"> Adrian Farrel [</span><a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">mailto:adrian@olddog.c=
o.uk</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 19:55<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick=
@metaswitch.com"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">=
Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"ms=
o-fareast-language:EN-GB">&gt;;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fa=
reast-language:EN-GB">pce@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-ty=
pe@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN=
-GB">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">draft-ietf-pce-segment-rou=
ting@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:=
EN-GB"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">pce-chairs@ietf.org</span></a><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Well, personally, if I=
 was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each bit flag!<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I would have a Setup-T=
ype TLV.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If that TLV is absent,=
 RSVP-TE is supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is present,=
 each bit means that a different setup type is supported.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That means...<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Legacy nodes don't inc=
lude the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Legacy nodes that rece=
ive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to the Open (leaving a n=
ew node to re-Open for RSVP-TE only).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">New nodes include the =
TLV and so indicate explicitly what they support.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I know it is late for =
that type of change, so how we proceed might depend on what implementations=
 have done already.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">From:</=
span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"> Pce [</span><a href=3D"=
mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">mail=
to:pce-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"=
>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 16:07<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast=
-language:EN-GB">pce@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:=
EN-GB">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-se=
rif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org</spa=
n></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Taho=
ma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-s=
erif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org</s=
pan></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-=
fareast-language:EN-GB">pce-chairs@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-far=
east-language:EN-GB"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draf=
t-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear PCE-ers<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#8217;t want to distract from the SDN topic to=
o much, but we have an important decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-=
setup-type.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no=
 way for a PCEP speaker to indicate that it can&#8217;t (or won&#8217;t) su=
pport RSVP-TE as a path setup type.&nbsp; It is entirely plausible that a n=
ode might not support RSVP-TE, or else have it disabled,
 for example in an SR-only network.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should b=
e changed to allow a speaker to declare that they do or don&#8217;t have su=
pport for RSVP-TE paths.&nbsp; There are two proposals.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt">1.<span style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a=
 (new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.&nbsp; If this TLV if mi=
ssing, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) the=
n it means that the speaker does not
 support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt">2.<span style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a=
 (new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON&#8217;T sup=
port RSVP-TE.&nbsp; If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do=
 support RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards com=
patible.&nbsp; Any existing SR implementation which also supports RSVP will=
 not currently send this new capability.&nbsp; So, if we make change (1) th=
en forwards-level implementations will incorrectly
 conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not support RSVP-TE.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my o=
pinion we should only do something ugly with a new protocol extension if we=
 simply can&#8217;t avoid doing it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And so the question: are there any *<b>deployments</=
b>* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP-TE environment that would be broken if we ma=
de change (1)?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jon<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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    Hi,<br>
    <br>
    I agree that capability bitmap with optional capability-specific
    sub-TLVs would be the way to go from scratch. However the
    SR-PCE-CAPABILITY already has an early allocated codepoint, and RFC
    7120 says that "if there is a change, implementations based on the
    earlier and later specifications must be seamlessly interoperable."<br>
    As a result, it seems to me that adding this new format may require
    that the I-D keeps documenting an optional SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV for
    legacy reasons.<br>
    <br>
    Cheers,<br>
    <br>
    Julien<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Jul. 25, 2017 -
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com">Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com</a>:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I agree that
            allowing optional sub-TLVs is a good thing. However, this
            strongly suggests that SR-PCE-CAPABILITY should become a
            sub-TLV, which is a non-backwards compatible change. So, we
            are back to my original question.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Implementers 
            any views?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                  style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
                style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-US"> Adrian
                Farrel [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> 24 July 2017 19:51<br>
                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Yes to that,
            Jon. But what happens when the next thing comes along?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Since sub-TLVs
            can be present, I would suggest to use a Setup-Type TLV with
            a bit map as I previously described in my email, and add
            optional sub-TLVs dependent on the bits that are set.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Isn't that the
            best of both worlds?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"
                    lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"
                  lang="EN-US"> Jonathan Hardwick [</span><a
                  href="mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com"
                  moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"
                    lang="EN-US">mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com</span></a><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"
                  lang="EN-US">]
                  <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> 24 July 2017 09:15<br>
                </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Adrian,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The
              SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is more than just a Boolean value -
              it also contains information about the maximum SID depth.
              However, I like your idea and I think that it gives us a
              better way to do this without breaking backwards
              compatibility with existing SR implementations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Suppose we
              introduce a setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you
              propose, and assign a bit to each setup type.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If the TLV is
              absent, then RSVP-TE is supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If the TLV is
              absent and the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is present, then
              RSVP-TE and SR are supported. This retains backwards
              compatibility with existing SR implementations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If the TLV is
              present, then the bits indicate which setup types are
              supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">We would
              modify the LSP setup type draft to say that
              implementations supporting path setup types other than
              RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type TLV.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Its not
              exactly beautiful, but its not as ugly as
              RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                    style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
                  style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-US">
                  Adrian Farrel [</span><a
                  href="mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"
                  moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                    style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-US">mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk</span></a><span
                  style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-US">]
                  <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 19:55<br>
                </span><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Well,
              personally, if I was designing this, I would not a whole
              TLV for each bit flag!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I would have
              a Setup-Type TLV.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If that TLV
              is absent, RSVP-TE is supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If the TLV is
              present, each bit means that a different setup type is
              supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">That means...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Legacy nodes
              don't include the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Legacy nodes
              that receive the TLV don't know what it means and so
              object to the Open (leaving a new node to re-Open for
              RSVP-TE only).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">New nodes
              include the TLV and so indicate explicitly what they
              support.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I know it is
              late for that type of change, so how we proceed might
              depend on what implementations have done already.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
            1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"
                      lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"
                    lang="EN-US"> Pce [</span><a
                    href="mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org"
                    moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"
                      lang="EN-US">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"
                    lang="EN-US">]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 16:07<br>
                  </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"
                    lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Dear PCE-ers<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">I dont want to distract from the SDN
              topic too much, but we have an important decision to make
              about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">The shepherd review raised an issue
              that there is no way for a PCEP speaker to indicate that
              it cant (or wont) support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.
              It is entirely plausible that a node might not support
              RSVP-TE, or else have it disabled, for example in an
              SR-only network.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">We think that
              draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should be changed to allow a
              speaker to declare that they do or dont have support for
              RSVP-TE paths. There are two proposals.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt">1.<span
                style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
                Roman&quot;,serif">
              </span>Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that
              speakers MUST include a (new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in
              their OPEN object. If this TLV if missing, but some other
              CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) then it
              means that the speaker does not support RSVP-TE as a path
              setup type.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt">2.<span
                style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New
                Roman&quot;,serif">
              </span>Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that
              speakers MUST include a (new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in
              their OPEN object if they DONT support RSVP-TE. If this
              TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do support
              RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">The problem with (1) is that it is not
              backwards compatible. Any existing SR implementation
              which also supports RSVP will not currently send this new
              capability. So, if we make change (1) then forwards-level
              implementations will incorrectly conclude that such
              backwards-level implementations do not support RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">The problem with (2) is that it is
              ugly, and in my opinion we should only do something ugly
              with a new protocol extension if we simply cant avoid
              doing it.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">And so the question: are there any *<b>deployments</b>*
              of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP-TE environment that would be
              broken if we made change (1)?<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Jon<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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From: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
CC: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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    Hi Daniele,<br>
    <br>
    [Operator hat on.]<br>
    <br>
    I agree on several things you wrote, starting from the answer to
    Jon's rhetorical question, which cares more about how much (at least
    I've never noticed my co-chair has a short memory).<br>
    <br>
    Nevertheless the sentence below needs to be corrected, because it
    happens to be wrong: "optical networks with no control plane" is as
    inaccurate as "a fuel car with no battery".<br>
    Not relying on the high-end version of this mean to realize the core
    task of an equipment must not hide that most (even those Sonet/SDH
    ADMs) of the deployed optical devices do (mostly for management
    traffic, whose fate PCEP may share)...:<br>
    - perform IP forwarding,<br>
    - have a routing table,<br>
    - run an IGP to populate that routing table,<br>
    - run an IGP to advertise their attached addresses,<br>
    - support a large set of (IP-based) protocols for various purposes
    (e.g., ICMP, DHCP, SSH, SMTP), i.e. squeezing many roles within a
    single protocol is a non-goal.<br>
    <br>
    A possible rephrasing could be "networks where the control plane is
    limited to background tasks", which reminds that operators deploy
    "fully packaged cars", not just "raw wheels with a motor" according
    to the misleading scope assumed in the current discussion.<br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    <br>
    Julien<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Jul. 24, 2017 - <a
        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
        href="mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:AM2PR07MB099490165090E961EBCC3F40F0BB0@AM2PR07MB0994.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com">
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
        <li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0
          level1 lfo1"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US">It could be the SBI solution for those networks
            where there is no control plane (e.g. many NMS driven
            optical networks)</span></li>
      </ul>
    </blockquote>
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
CC: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Julien Meuric'" <julien.meuric@orange.com>, "'Jonathan Hardwick'" <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, <pce@ietf.org>
Cc: <draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org>, <draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Sighing slightly:-)
 
If, as may be the case, there is a demand to make this work either as currently
specified or to be seamlessly interoperable with what is already specified then
so be it. Let's make that as a conscious decision.
 
However, I think that using 7120 as an "excuse" is a bad idea. What 7120 is
saying is that the allocated code point must show some stability in meaning from
the point of early allocation on to RFC (just as it would need to if the RFC was
revised). But that is not saying that, upon noticing that we are a herd of
lemmings rushing towards the cliff we must say "We have always rushed towards
the cliff. Our parents rushed towards the cliff. We must continue even if it
means we plunge to our deaths."
 
Of course, nothing so dramatic, but...
 
If the current specification works well - stay with it.
If the current specification works but is clumsy - tweak it in a backward
compatible way
If the current specification is broken in a minor way - fix it in a backward
compatible way
If the current specification is more seriously broken - burn a new code point to
fix it
 
In my earlier emails I was only speculating on "how I would have done this if
starting from scratch." Obviously (?) I should have participated in WG
discussions much earlier in the cycle, and as a result my opinion really only
counts if either:
- the current specification is more seriously broken
or
- there is no WG desire to stick close to the current specification.
 
Clearly, although people who implement against I-Ds are doing so at their own
risk, we should not unnecessarily burden early implementations with changes just
for the sake of change. There is a sliding scale of "better ways to do things"
that incorporates "it's a bit messy," "it will be easier to maintain and
extend," all the way up to "it's broken." The WG will want to work out where we
are on that scale and weigh it against the cost and inconvenience of change.
Shipping in software may be one measure. Deployed and in use is another measure.
 
Cheers,
Adrian
 
From: Julien Meuric [mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com] 
Sent: 25 July 2017 09:31
To: Jonathan Hardwick; adrian@olddog.co.uk; pce@ietf.org
Cc: draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org;
draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
 
Hi,

I agree that capability bitmap with optional capability-specific sub-TLVs would
be the way to go from scratch. However the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY already has an
early allocated codepoint, and RFC 7120 says that "if there is a change,
implementations based on the earlier and later specifications must be seamlessly
interoperable."
As a result, it seems to me that adding this new format may require that the I-D
keeps documenting an optional SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV for legacy reasons.

Cheers,

Julien


Jul. 25, 2017 - Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com:
I agree that allowing optional sub-TLVs is a good thing.  However, this strongly
suggests that SR-PCE-CAPABILITY should become a sub-TLV, which is a
non-backwards compatible change.  So, we are back to my original question.
 
Implementers - any views?
 
Cheers
Jon
 
 
From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk] 
Sent: 24 July 2017 19:51


 
Yes to that, Jon. But what happens when the next thing comes along?
 
Since sub-TLVs can be present, I would suggest to use a Setup-Type TLV with a
bit map as I previously described in my email, and add optional sub-TLVs
dependent on the bits that are set.
 
Isn't that the best of both worlds?
 
Adrian
 
From: Jonathan Hardwick [ <mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com] 
Sent: 24 July 2017 09:15


 
Adrian,
 
The SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also contains
information about the maximum SID depth.  However, I like your idea and I think
that it gives us a better way to do this without breaking backwards
compatibility with existing SR implementations.
 
Suppose we introduce a setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, and
assign a bit to each setup type.
If the TLV is absent, then RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is absent and the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is present, then RSVP-TE and
SR are supported.  This retains backwards compatibility with existing SR
implementations.
If the TLV is present, then the bits indicate which setup types are supported.
 
We would modify the LSP setup type draft to say that implementations supporting
path setup types other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type TLV.
 
It's not exactly beautiful, but it's not as ugly as RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT.
 
Cheers
Jon
 
 
From: Adrian Farrel [ <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk> mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk] 
Sent: 21 July 2017 19:55


 
Well, personally, if I was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each bit
flag!
I would have a Setup-Type TLV.
If that TLV is absent, RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is present, each bit means that a different setup type is supported.
 
That means...
Legacy nodes don't include the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE
Legacy nodes that receive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to the
Open (leaving a new node to re-Open for RSVP-TE only).
New nodes include the TLV and so indicate explicitly what they support.
 
I know it is late for that type of change, so how we proceed might depend on
what implementations have done already.
 
Adrian
 
From: Pce [ <mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: 21 July 2017 16:07


 
Dear PCE-ers
 
I don't want to distract from the SDN topic too much, but we have an important
decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.
 
The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no way for a PCEP speaker to
indicate that it can't (or won't) support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.  It is
entirely plausible that a node might not support RSVP-TE, or else have it
disabled, for example in an SR-only network.
 
We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should be changed to allow a speaker
to declare that they do or don't have support for RSVP-TE paths.  There are two
proposals.
 
1.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a
(new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.  If this TLV if missing, but
some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) then it means that
the speaker does not support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.
2.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a
(new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON'T support
RSVP-TE.  If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do support
RSVP-TE.
 
The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards compatible.  Any existing SR
implementation which also supports RSVP will not currently send this new
capability.  So, if we make change (1) then forwards-level implementations will
incorrectly conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not support
RSVP-TE.
 
The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my opinion we should only do
something ugly with a new protocol extension if we simply can't avoid doing it.
 
And so the question: are there any *deployments* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP-TE
environment that would be broken if we made change (1)?
 
Thanks
Jon
 
 

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-GB link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" =
style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Sighing =
slightly:-)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>If, as may be the =
case, there is a demand to make this work either as currently specified =
or to be seamlessly interoperable with what is already specified then so =
be it. Let's make that as a conscious decision.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>However, I think that =
using 7120 as an &quot;excuse&quot; is a bad idea. What 7120 is saying =
is that the allocated code point must show some stability in meaning =
from the point of early allocation on to RFC (just as it would need to =
if the RFC was revised). But that is not saying that, upon noticing that =
we are a herd of lemmings rushing towards the cliff we must say &quot;We =
have always rushed towards the cliff. Our parents rushed towards the =
cliff. We must continue even if it means we plunge to our =
deaths.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Of course, nothing so =
dramatic, but...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>If the current =
specification works well - stay with it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>If the current =
specification works but is clumsy - tweak it in a backward compatible =
way<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>If the current =
specification is broken in a minor way - fix it in a backward compatible =
way<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>If the current =
specification is more seriously broken - burn a new code point to fix =
it<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>In my earlier emails I =
was only speculating on &quot;how I would have done this if starting =
from scratch.&quot; Obviously (?) I should have participated in WG =
discussions much earlier in the cycle, and as a result my opinion really =
only counts if either:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>- the current =
specification is more seriously broken<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>or<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>- there is no WG =
desire to stick close to the current =
specification.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Clearly, although =
people who implement against I-Ds are doing so at their own risk, we =
should not unnecessarily burden early implementations with changes just =
for the sake of change. There is a sliding scale of &quot;better ways to =
do things&quot; that incorporates &quot;it's a bit messy,&quot; &quot;it =
will be easier to maintain and extend,&quot; all the way up to =
&quot;it's broken.&quot; The WG will want to work out where we are on =
that scale and weigh it against the cost and inconvenience of change. =
Shipping in software may be one measure. Deployed and in use is another =
measure.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B'> Julien Meuric [mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 25 =
July 2017 09:31<br><b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick; adrian@olddog.co.uk; =
pce@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] Can =
we make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Hi,<br><br>I agree =
that capability bitmap with optional capability-specific sub-TLVs would =
be the way to go from scratch. However the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY already has =
an early allocated codepoint, and RFC 7120 says that &quot;if there is a =
change, implementations based on the earlier and later specifications =
must be seamlessly interoperable.&quot;<br>As a result, it seems to me =
that adding this new format may require that the I-D keeps documenting =
an optional SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV for legacy =
reasons.<br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Julien<br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![if =
!supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></=
p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Jul. 25, 2017 - <a =
href=3D"mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com">Jonathan.Hardwick@metasw=
itch.com</a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I agree that allowing =
optional sub-TLVs is a good thing.&nbsp; However, this strongly suggests =
that SR-PCE-CAPABILITY should become a sub-TLV, which is a non-backwards =
compatible change.&nbsp; So, we are back to my original =
question.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Implementers &#8211; any =
views?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Cheers</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Jon</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'> Adrian =
Farrel [<a =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> 24 July 2017 19:51<br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![if =
!supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![endif]></span><o:p></o:p></=
p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Yes to that, Jon. But =
what happens when the next thing comes along?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Since sub-TLVs can be =
present, I would suggest to use a Setup-Type TLV with a bit map as I =
previously described in my email, and add optional sub-TLVs dependent on =
the bits that are set.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Isn't that the best of =
both worlds?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Adrian</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>From:</span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'> Jonathan Hardwick [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitc=
h.com</span></a><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>] <br><b>Sent:</b> 24 July 2017 =
09:15<br style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![if =
!supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![endif]></span><o:p></o:p></=
p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Adrian,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The SR-PCE-CAPABILITY =
TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also contains information =
about the maximum SID depth.&nbsp; However, I like your idea and I think =
that it gives us a better way to do this without breaking backwards =
compatibility with existing SR implementations.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Suppose we introduce a =
setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, and assign a bit to =
each setup type.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If the TLV is absent, then RSVP-TE is =
supported.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If the TLV is absent and the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY =
TLV is present, then RSVP-TE and SR are supported.&nbsp; This retains =
backwards compatibility with existing SR =
implementations.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If the TLV is present, then the bits indicate =
which setup types are supported.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>We would modify the LSP =
setup type draft to say that implementations supporting path setup types =
other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type =
TLV.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>It&#8217;s not exactly =
beautiful, but it&#8217;s not as ugly as =
RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Cheers</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Jon</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'> Adrian =
Farrel [</span><a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>mailto:adria=
n@olddog.co.uk</span></a><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 19:55<br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![if =
!supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![endif]></span><o:p></o:p></=
p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Well, personally, if I =
was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each bit =
flag!</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I would have a Setup-Type =
TLV.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If that TLV is absent, RSVP-TE is =
supported.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If the TLV is present, each bit means that a =
different setup type is supported.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>That =
means...</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Legacy nodes don't include the TLV and are =
assumed to support RSVP-TE</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Legacy nodes that =
receive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to the Open =
(leaving a new node to re-Open for RSVP-TE =
only).</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>New nodes include the TLV and so indicate =
explicitly what they support.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I know it is late for =
that type of change, so how we proceed might depend on what =
implementations have done already.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Adrian</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>From:</span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'> Pce [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</span>=
</a><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan =
Hardwick<br><b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 16:07<br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![if =
!supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![endif]></span><o:p></o:p></=
p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Dear PCE-ers<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
don&#8217;t want to distract from the SDN topic too much, but we have an =
important decision to make about =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The shepherd =
review raised an issue that there is no way for a PCEP speaker to =
indicate that it can&#8217;t (or won&#8217;t) support RSVP-TE as a path =
setup type.&nbsp; It is entirely plausible that a node might not support =
RSVP-TE, or else have it disabled, for example in an SR-only =
network.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should be =
changed to allow a speaker to declare that they do or don&#8217;t have =
support for RSVP-TE paths.&nbsp; There are two =
proposals.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'>1.<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman =
,serif","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Change =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a (new) =
RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.&nbsp; If this TLV if =
missing, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as =
SR-CAPABILITY) then it means that the speaker does not support RSVP-TE =
as a path setup type.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'>2.<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman =
,serif","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Change =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a (new) =
RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON&#8217;T support =
RSVP-TE.&nbsp; If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do =
support RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The problem =
with (1) is that it is not backwards compatible.&nbsp; Any existing SR =
implementation which also supports RSVP will not currently send this new =
capability.&nbsp; So, if we make change (1) then forwards-level =
implementations will incorrectly conclude that such backwards-level =
implementations do not support RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The problem =
with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my opinion we should only do =
something ugly with a new protocol extension if we simply can&#8217;t =
avoid doing it.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>And so the =
question: are there any *<b>deployments</b>* of PCEP in a mixed =
SR/RSVP-TE environment that would be broken if we made change =
(1)?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jon<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></di=
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Reply-To: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Daniele Ceccarelli'" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, "'Julien Meuric'" <julien.meuric@orange.com>, <pce@ietf.org>
Cc: <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/ilYoaznwzuGslM10RAFqjr8FtPc>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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I think it is all slightly a distraction :-)
=20
It is possible to run an MCN without a routing protocol depending on the =
topology of the MCN. Many MCNs can be achieved with relatively simple =
static routes.
=20
Statements (Haomian) that optical devices cannot run BGP-LS seem to me =
to be an exaggeration. I understand why they choose to not do it.
=20
The use of BGP-LS or PCEP-LS in a network where an IGP-TE is running may =
be excessive since making a PCE a passive partner in an IGP is very =
cheap and easy.
=20
=20
=20
All of these things are an aside to the deployment models being =
discussed. Those models are more closely SDN-based, and that fact may be =
missing from the conversation.
=20
Consider a network that runs without a horizontal control plane (i.e., =
no IGP-TE and no signaling protocol). In this mode, devices are =
individually provisioned from a controller using a protocol such as PCEP =
in a PCE-CC mode. The controller-device communications run through an =
MCN, but that network could be fairly simply constructed of P2P =
forwarding paths or (in the case of an in-fiber MCN) by taking advantage =
of default static routes.
=20
In this network, the question to address is "How does the PCE learn the =
topology of the TE network?" I believe that at least some of the =
proponents of PCEP-LS are suggesting that *each* NE can have a PCEP =
session that is used not only for programming the NE for forwarding, but =
also for reporting a fragment of the topology. In other words, PCEP-LS =
would be used by *each* NE to report its local links. (Whether this =
assumes that the NEs are running some form of discovery/verification =
protocol such as LMP is maybe something we should also be talking =
about.)
=20
I find myself asking, "How does an individual NE know its configuration? =
What identities does it give to links? Where do those links connect to?" =
If that information is pushed by configuration, couldn't that =
configuration station push that information to the PCE as well.
=20
So maybe what is needed to make this clear is a tiny little architecture =
statement? That way people hearing "PCEP-LS" will not think "dump the =
whole topology from a single node in the network" the way that we have =
become accustomed to thinking with BGP-LS, but will see the picture =
being solved and will understand the flow of information.
=20
Thanks,
Adrian
=20
=20
From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniele Ceccarelli
Sent: 25 July 2017 11:27
To: Julien Meuric; pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
=20
HI Julien,
=20
your correction is=E2=80=A6correct =F0=9F=98=8A
=20
You=E2=80=99re referring to the protocols running on the DCN, or more =
appropriately on the MCN, right? The IGP is usually non TE and just =
providing reachability info=E2=80=A6but as PCEP can be modified for =
other purposes, they can be modified as well. On this I agree with you.
=20
Cheers
Daniele  =20
=20
From: Julien Meuric [mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com]=20
Sent: marted=C3=AC 25 luglio 2017 11:36
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; pce@ietf.org
Cc: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; =
pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
=20
Hi Daniele,

[Operator hat on.]

I agree on several things you wrote, starting from the answer to Jon's =
rhetorical question, which cares more about how much (at least I've =
never noticed my co-chair has a short memory).

Nevertheless the sentence below needs to be corrected, because it =
happens to be wrong: "optical networks with no control plane" is as =
inaccurate as "a fuel car with no battery".
Not relying on the high-end version of this mean to realize the core =
task of an equipment must not hide that most (even those Sonet/SDH ADMs) =
of the deployed optical devices do (mostly for management traffic, whose =
fate PCEP may share)...:
- perform IP forwarding,
- have a routing table,
- run an IGP to populate that routing table,
- run an IGP to advertise their attached addresses,
- support a large set of (IP-based) protocols for various purposes =
(e.g., ICMP, DHCP, SSH, SMTP), i.e. squeezing many roles within a single =
protocol is a non-goal.

A possible rephrasing could be "networks where the control plane is =
limited to background tasks", which reminds that operators deploy "fully =
packaged cars", not just "raw wheels with a motor" according to the =
misleading scope assumed in the current discussion.

Thanks,

Julien
Jul. 24, 2017 - daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com:
=C2=B7         It could be the SBI solution for those networks where =
there is no control plane (e.g. many NMS driven optical networks)
=20

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DefSemiHidden=3D"true" DefQFormat=3D"false" DefPriority=3D"99" =
LatentStyleCount=3D"267">
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"0" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"Normal"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"heading 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" QFormat=3D"true" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" QFormat=3D"true" =
Name=3D"heading 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" QFormat=3D"true" =
Name=3D"heading 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" QFormat=3D"true" =
Name=3D"heading 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" QFormat=3D"true" =
Name=3D"heading 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" QFormat=3D"true" =
Name=3D"heading 7"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" QFormat=3D"true" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" QFormat=3D"true" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" Name=3D"toc 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" Name=3D"toc 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" Name=3D"toc 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" Name=3D"toc 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" Name=3D"toc 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" Name=3D"toc 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" Name=3D"toc 7"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" Name=3D"toc 8"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" Name=3D"toc 9"/>
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"1" Name=3D"Default =
Paragraph Font"/>
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1"/>
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent 1"/>
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UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/>
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UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/>
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UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Accent 1"/>
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Name=3D"Revision"/>
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/>
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UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful Shading Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful List Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light Shading Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light List Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful Shading Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful List Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light Shading Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light List Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful Shading Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful List Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light Shading Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light List Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful List Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light Shading Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light List Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful Shading Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful List Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"19" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"Subtle Emphasis"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"21" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"Intense Emphasis"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"31" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"Subtle Reference"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"32" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"Intense Reference"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"33" SemiHidden=3D"false" =
UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"Book Title"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"37" Name=3D"Bibliography"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" QFormat=3D"true" =
Name=3D"TOC Heading"/>
</w:LatentStyles>
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple =
style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>I think it is all =
slightly a distraction :-)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>It is possible to run =
an MCN without a routing protocol depending on the topology of the MCN. =
Many MCNs can be achieved with relatively simple static =
routes.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Statements (Haomian) =
that optical devices cannot run BGP-LS seem to me to be an exaggeration. =
I understand why they choose to not do it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>The use of BGP-LS or =
PCEP-LS in a network where an IGP-TE is running may be excessive since =
making a PCE a passive partner in an IGP is very cheap and =
easy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>All of these things =
are an aside to the deployment models being discussed. Those models are =
more closely SDN-based, and that fact may be missing from the =
conversation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Consider a network =
that runs without a horizontal control plane (i.e., no IGP-TE and no =
signaling protocol). In this mode, devices are individually provisioned =
from a controller using a protocol such as PCEP in a PCE-CC mode. The =
controller-device communications run through an MCN, but that network =
could be fairly simply constructed of P2P forwarding paths or (in the =
case of an in-fiber MCN) by taking advantage of default static =
routes.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>In this network, the =
question to address is &quot;How does the PCE learn the topology of the =
TE network?&quot; I believe that at least some of the proponents of =
PCEP-LS are suggesting that *each* NE can have a PCEP session that is =
used not only for programming the NE for forwarding, but also for =
reporting a fragment of the topology. In other words, PCEP-LS would be =
used by *each* NE to report its local links. (Whether this assumes that =
the NEs are running some form of discovery/verification protocol such as =
LMP is maybe something we should also be talking =
about.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>I find myself asking, =
&quot;How does an individual NE know its configuration? What identities =
does it give to links? Where do those links connect to?&quot; If that =
information is pushed by configuration, couldn't that configuration =
station push that information to the PCE as =
well.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>So maybe what is =
needed to make this clear is a tiny little architecture statement? That =
way people hearing &quot;PCEP-LS&quot; will not think &quot;dump the =
whole topology from a single node in the network&quot; the way that we =
have become accustomed to thinking with BGP-LS, but will see the picture =
being solved and will understand the flow of =
information.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'> =
Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Daniele =
Ceccarelli<br><b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2017 11:27<br><b>To:</b> Julien =
Meuric; pce@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> =
pce-chairs@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN =
controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DIT =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:IT;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
'>HI Julien,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:IT;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:IT;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
'>your correction is=E2=80=A6correct </span><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI =
Symbol","sans-serif";mso-bidi-font-family:"Segoe UI =
Symbol";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:IT;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'=
>&#128522;</span><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:IT;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:IT;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US'>You=E2=80=99re referring to the protocols running on the DCN, or =
more appropriately on the MCN, right? The IGP is usually non TE and just =
providing reachability info=E2=80=A6but as PCEP can be modified for =
other purposes, they can be modified as well. On this I agree with =
you.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US'>Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US'>Daniele&nbsp; &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'> Julien =
Meuric [mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> marted=C3=AC =
25 luglio 2017 11:36<br><b>To:</b> Daniele Ceccarelli =
&lt;daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com&gt;; pce@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> =
Jonathan Hardwick &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;; =
pce-chairs@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: PCEP as an SDN controller =
protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:IT'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=3DIT style=3D'mso-ansi-language:IT'>Hi =
Daniele,<br><br>[Operator hat on.]<br><br>I agree on several things you =
wrote, starting from the answer to Jon's rhetorical question, which =
cares more about how much (at least I've never noticed my co-chair has a =
short memory).<br><br>Nevertheless the sentence below needs to be =
corrected, because it happens to be wrong: &quot;optical networks with =
no control plane&quot; is as inaccurate as &quot;a fuel car with no =
battery&quot;.<br>Not relying on the high-end version of this mean to =
realize the core task of an equipment must not hide that most (even =
those Sonet/SDH ADMs) of the deployed optical devices do (mostly for =
management traffic, whose fate PCEP may share)...:<br>- perform IP =
forwarding,<br>- have a routing table,<br>- run an IGP to populate that =
routing table,<br>- run an IGP to advertise their attached =
addresses,<br>- support a large set of (IP-based) protocols for various =
purposes (e.g., ICMP, DHCP, SSH, SMTP), i.e. squeezing many roles within =
a single protocol is a non-goal.<br><br>A possible rephrasing could be =
&quot;networks where the control plane is limited to background =
tasks&quot;, which reminds that operators deploy &quot;fully packaged =
cars&quot;, not just &quot;raw wheels with a motor&quot; according to =
the misleading scope assumed in the current =
discussion.<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Julien<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:IT'>Jul. 24, 2017 - <a =
href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com">daniele.ceccarelli@ericss=
on.com</a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:7=
1.4pt;text-indent:-18.0pt'><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;mso-ansi-language:IT'>=C2=B7=
</span><span lang=3DIT style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";mso-ansi-language:IT'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>It could be =
the SBI solution for those networks where there is no control plane =
(e.g. many NMS driven optical networks)</span><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:IT'><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:IT'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></=
body></html>
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From: Mahendra Singh Negi <mahendrasingh@huawei.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "'Julien Meuric'" <julien.meuric@orange.com>, "'Jonathan Hardwick'" <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "Dhruv Dhody" <dhruv.dhody@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Dear All,

This is to answer on implantation row, apologies for the delayed response, =
 YES we do have our PCEP solutions deployed in mixed SR/RSVP-TE environment=
s.
I am afraid any non-backward compatible changes will break our solution. So=
 hope we choose a backward compatible solution.
Regards,
Mahendra (Huawei Tech India Pvt Ltd)

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
Sent: 25 July 2017 16:26
To: 'Julien Meuric'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; pce@ietf.org
Cc: draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@=
ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-i=
etf-pce-lsp-setup-type?

Sighing slightly:-)

If, as may be the case, there is a demand to make this work either as curre=
ntly specified or to be seamlessly interoperable with what is already speci=
fied then so be it. Let's make that as a conscious decision.

However, I think that using 7120 as an "excuse" is a bad idea. What 7120 is=
 saying is that the allocated code point must show some stability in meanin=
g from the point of early allocation on to RFC (just as it would need to if=
 the RFC was revised). But that is not saying that, upon noticing that we a=
re a herd of lemmings rushing towards the cliff we must say "We have always=
 rushed towards the cliff. Our parents rushed towards the cliff. We must co=
ntinue even if it means we plunge to our deaths."

Of course, nothing so dramatic, but...

If the current specification works well - stay with it.
If the current specification works but is clumsy - tweak it in a backward c=
ompatible way
If the current specification is broken in a minor way - fix it in a backwar=
d compatible way
If the current specification is more seriously broken - burn a new code poi=
nt to fix it

In my earlier emails I was only speculating on "how I would have done this =
if starting from scratch." Obviously (?) I should have participated in WG d=
iscussions much earlier in the cycle, and as a result my opinion really onl=
y counts if either:
- the current specification is more seriously broken
or
- there is no WG desire to stick close to the current specification.

Clearly, although people who implement against I-Ds are doing so at their o=
wn risk, we should not unnecessarily burden early implementations with chan=
ges just for the sake of change. There is a sliding scale of "better ways t=
o do things" that incorporates "it's a bit messy," "it will be easier to ma=
intain and extend," all the way up to "it's broken." The WG will want to wo=
rk out where we are on that scale and weigh it against the cost and inconve=
nience of change. Shipping in software may be one measure. Deployed and in =
use is another measure.

Cheers,
Adrian

From: Julien Meuric [mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com]
Sent: 25 July 2017 09:31
To: Jonathan Hardwick; adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; pce=
@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-=
type@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-p=
ce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-i=
etf-pce-lsp-setup-type?

Hi,

I agree that capability bitmap with optional capability-specific sub-TLVs w=
ould be the way to go from scratch. However the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY already h=
as an early allocated codepoint, and RFC 7120 says that "if there is a chan=
ge, implementations based on the earlier and later specifications must be s=
eamlessly interoperable."
As a result, it seems to me that adding this new format may require that th=
e I-D keeps documenting an optional SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV for legacy reason=
s.

Cheers,

Julien

Jul. 25, 2017 - Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com<mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@m=
etaswitch.com>:
I agree that allowing optional sub-TLVs is a good thing.  However, this str=
ongly suggests that SR-PCE-CAPABILITY should become a sub-TLV, which is a n=
on-backwards compatible change.  So, we are back to my original question.

Implementers - any views?

Cheers
Jon


From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
Sent: 24 July 2017 19:51


Yes to that, Jon. But what happens when the next thing comes along?

Since sub-TLVs can be present, I would suggest to use a Setup-Type TLV with=
 a bit map as I previously described in my email, and add optional sub-TLVs=
 dependent on the bits that are set.

Isn't that the best of both worlds?

Adrian

From: Jonathan Hardwick [mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com]
Sent: 24 July 2017 09:15


Adrian,

The SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also conta=
ins information about the maximum SID depth.  However, I like your idea and=
 I think that it gives us a better way to do this without breaking backward=
s compatibility with existing SR implementations.

Suppose we introduce a setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, =
and assign a bit to each setup type.
If the TLV is absent, then RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is absent and the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is present, then RSVP-TE=
 and SR are supported.  This retains backwards compatibility with existing =
SR implementations.
If the TLV is present, then the bits indicate which setup types are support=
ed.

We would modify the LSP setup type draft to say that implementations suppor=
ting path setup types other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type TLV.

It's not exactly beautiful, but it's not as ugly as RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT.

Cheers
Jon


From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
Sent: 21 July 2017 19:55


Well, personally, if I was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each=
 bit flag!
I would have a Setup-Type TLV.
If that TLV is absent, RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is present, each bit means that a different setup type is suppor=
ted.

That means...
Legacy nodes don't include the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE
Legacy nodes that receive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to=
 the Open (leaving a new node to re-Open for RSVP-TE only).
New nodes include the TLV and so indicate explicitly what they support.

I know it is late for that type of change, so how we proceed might depend o=
n what implementations have done already.

Adrian

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: 21 July 2017 16:07


Dear PCE-ers

I don't want to distract from the SDN topic too much, but we have an import=
ant decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.

The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no way for a PCEP speaker=
 to indicate that it can't (or won't) support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.=
  It is entirely plausible that a node might not support RSVP-TE, or else h=
ave it disabled, for example in an SR-only network.

We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should be changed to allow a sp=
eaker to declare that they do or don't have support for RSVP-TE paths.  The=
re are two proposals.


1.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include =
a (new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.  If this TLV if missin=
g, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) then it=
 means that the speaker does not support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.

2.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include =
a (new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON'T support =
RSVP-TE.  If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do support R=
SVP-TE.

The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards compatible.  Any existing =
SR implementation which also supports RSVP will not currently send this new=
 capability.  So, if we make change (1) then forwards-level implementations=
 will incorrectly conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not=
 support RSVP-TE.

The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my opinion we should only d=
o something ugly with a new protocol extension if we simply can't avoid doi=
ng it.

And so the question: are there any *deployments* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP=
-TE environment that would be broken if we made change (1)?

Thanks
Jon



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;background:#F7F7F7">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;background:#F7F7F7"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;background:#F7F7F7">This is to answer on i=
mplantation row, apologies for the delayed response, &nbsp;YES we do have o=
ur PCEP solutions deployed in mixed SR/RSVP-TE environments.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;background:#F7F7F7">I am afraid any non-ba=
ckward compatible changes will break our solution. So hope we choose a back=
ward compatible solution.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;background:#F7F7F7"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;background:#F7F7F7">Regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;background:#F7F7F7">Mahendra (Huawei Tech =
India Pvt Ltd)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Adrian Farrel<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2017 16:26<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Julien Meuric'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; pce@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-segment-r=
outing@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Sighing=
 slightly:-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">If, as =
may be the case, there is a demand to make this work either as currently sp=
ecified or to be seamlessly interoperable with what is already specified th=
en so be it. Let's make that as a conscious
 decision.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">However=
, I think that using 7120 as an &quot;excuse&quot; is a bad idea. What 7120=
 is saying is that the allocated code point must show some stability in mea=
ning from the point of early allocation on to RFC
 (just as it would need to if the RFC was revised). But that is not saying =
that, upon noticing that we are a herd of lemmings rushing towards the clif=
f we must say &quot;We have always rushed towards the cliff. Our parents ru=
shed towards the cliff. We must continue
 even if it means we plunge to our deaths.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Of cour=
se, nothing so dramatic, but...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the =
current specification works well - stay with it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the =
current specification works but is clumsy - tweak it in a backward compatib=
le way<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the =
current specification is broken in a minor way - fix it in a backward compa=
tible way<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the =
current specification is more seriously broken - burn a new code point to f=
ix it<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">In my e=
arlier emails I was only speculating on &quot;how I would have done this if=
 starting from scratch.&quot; Obviously (?) I should have participated in W=
G discussions much earlier in the cycle, and as
 a result my opinion really only counts if either:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">- the c=
urrent specification is more seriously broken<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">or<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">- there=
 is no WG desire to stick close to the current specification.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Clearly=
, although people who implement against I-Ds are doing so at their own risk=
, we should not unnecessarily burden early implementations with changes jus=
t for the sake of change. There is a sliding
 scale of &quot;better ways to do things&quot; that incorporates &quot;it's=
 a bit messy,&quot; &quot;it will be easier to maintain and extend,&quot; a=
ll the way up to &quot;it's broken.&quot; The WG will want to work out wher=
e we are on that scale and weigh it against the cost and inconvenience of
 change. Shipping in software may be one measure. Deployed and in use is an=
other measure.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> Julien Meuric [<a href=3D"mailto:julien.meuric@or=
ange.com">mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2017 09:31<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick; <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian=
@olddog.co.uk</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org">draft-ietf-pce-s=
egment-routing@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=
Hi,<br>
<br>
I agree that capability bitmap with optional capability-specific sub-TLVs w=
ould be the way to go from scratch. However the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY already h=
as an early allocated codepoint, and RFC 7120 says that &quot;if there is a=
 change, implementations based on the
 earlier and later specifications must be seamlessly interoperable.&quot;<b=
r>
As a result, it seems to me that adding this new format may require that th=
e I-D keeps documenting an optional SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV for legacy reason=
s.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Julien<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jul. 25, 2017 - <a href=3D"mail=
to:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com">
Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com</a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">I agree=
 that allowing optional sub-TLVs is a good thing.&nbsp; However, this stron=
gly suggests that SR-PCE-CAPABILITY should become a sub-TLV, which is a non=
-backwards compatible change.&nbsp; So, we are back
 to my original question.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Impleme=
nters &#8211; any views?</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jon</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Adrian Farrel [<a href=3D"mailto:adrian=
@olddog.co.uk">mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24 July 2017 19:51<br>
<br>
<span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Yes to =
that, Jon. But what happens when the next thing comes along?</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Since s=
ub-TLVs can be present, I would suggest to use a Setup-Type TLV with a bit =
map as I previously described in my email, and add optional sub-TLVs depend=
ent on the bits that are set.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Isn't t=
hat the best of both worlds?</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Jonathan=
 Hardwick [</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><a href=3D"mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@=
metaswitch.com"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswi=
tch.com</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24 July 2017 09:15<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian,=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">The SR-=
PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also contains inf=
ormation about the maximum SID depth.&nbsp; However, I like your idea and I=
 think that it gives us a better way to do
 this without breaking backwards compatibility with existing SR implementat=
ions.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Suppose=
 we introduce a setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, and ass=
ign a bit to each setup type.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the =
TLV is absent, then RSVP-TE is supported.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the =
TLV is absent and the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is present, then RSVP-TE and SR=
 are supported.&nbsp; This retains backwards compatibility with existing SR=
 implementations.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the =
TLV is present, then the bits indicate which setup types are supported.</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">We woul=
d modify the LSP setup type draft to say that implementations supporting pa=
th setup types other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type TLV.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">It&#821=
7;s not exactly beautiful, but it&#8217;s not as ugly as RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPOR=
T.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jon</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Adrian Farrel [<span lang=3D"EN-GB"><a =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mailto:adrian@oldd=
og.co.uk</span></a></span>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 19:55<br>
<br>
<span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Well, p=
ersonally, if I was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each bit fl=
ag!</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">I would=
 have a Setup-Type TLV.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">If that=
 TLV is absent, RSVP-TE is supported.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the =
TLV is present, each bit means that a different setup type is supported.</s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">That me=
ans...</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Legacy =
nodes don't include the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Legacy =
nodes that receive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to the Op=
en (leaving a new node to re-Open for RSVP-TE only).</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">New nod=
es include the TLV and so indicate explicitly what they support.</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">I know =
it is late for that type of change, so how we proceed might depend on what =
implementations have done already.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pce [</s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><a href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"=
>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 16:07<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Dear PCE-ers<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I don&#8217;t want to distract =
from the SDN topic too much, but we have an important decision to make abou=
t draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The shepherd review raised an i=
ssue that there is no way for a PCEP speaker to indicate that it can&#8217;=
t (or won&#8217;t) support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.&nbsp; It is entire=
ly plausible that a node might not support RSVP-TE, or
 else have it disabled, for example in an SR-only network.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We think that draft-ietf-pce-ls=
p-setup-type should be changed to allow a speaker to declare that they do o=
r don&#8217;t have support for RSVP-TE paths.&nbsp; There are two proposals=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-GB">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Times New Roman \,serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that sp=
eakers MUST include a (new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.&nb=
sp; If this TLV if missing, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such =
as SR-CAPABILITY) then it means that the
 speaker does not support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-GB">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Times New Roman \,serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that sp=
eakers MUST include a (new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if=
 they DON&#8217;T support RSVP-TE.&nbsp; If this TLV is omitted, it will be=
 assumed that they do support RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The problem with (1) is that it=
 is not backwards compatible.&nbsp; Any existing SR implementation which al=
so supports RSVP will not currently send this new capability.&nbsp; So, if =
we make change (1) then forwards-level implementations
 will incorrectly conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not=
 support RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The problem with (2) is that it=
 is ugly, and in my opinion we should only do something ugly with a new pro=
tocol extension if we simply can&#8217;t avoid doing it.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">And so the question: are there =
any *<b>deployments</b>* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP-TE environment that wou=
ld be broken if we made change (1)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
To: Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>, Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
CC: "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
Thread-Index: AdMBZDe3oIUEH6WSTDKg6cZRmOEpYgDDd6zgAAIgaYAAMk72kA==
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 12:49:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Hi,

You can use RESTCONF, NETCONF or anything similar (CLI ?) to provision path=
s as you can do with PCEP. Nothing prevents to do that.

Brgds,

From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 14:53
To: LITKOWSKI Stephane OBS/OINIS; Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: RE: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Hi Stephanie,

You said:
< Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic stee=
ring on path...) ?

But why not to use for these purposes RESTCONF or gRPC/protobuffs? Do you s=
ee value in using explicit model based SBIs vs implicit (TLV-) based protoc=
ols such as  PCE?

Cheers,,
Igor


From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of stephane.litkowski@ora=
nge.com<mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 8:03 AM
To: Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Hi,

As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN c=
ontroller who takes decision and programs the network.
So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.

IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it's just bring a new kind o=
f LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implementing=
 hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it needs to =
program nodes in the right order to prevent transient loops...

The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and do =
we want to create a protocol that does everything , including coffee :) ?
We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has s=
trength and weaknesses and I'm not sure that we need to mimic all features =
in all protocols. What is the gain here ?
The best approach may be to use strength of protocols and use them for what=
 they are good for:
Example:
IGP has good flooding capability with "limited scale": interesting when all=
 receivers need the same information
BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and ability to target spe=
cific groups (using route targets/communities) : interesting when groups of=
 receivers need the same information
Netconf more generic and point to point
...


IMO:
do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D> This can be discussed, we already have two protoc=
ols to exchange the topology...
do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =3D> not sure, we have=
 Netconf for that.
Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic steeri=
ng on path...) ?

Brgds,

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22
To: pce@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Dear PCE WG

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally=
 provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and a=
dded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This h=
as added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed =
by the network management plane.

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP -=
 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  There=
 were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

*        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP's path instantiation capabi=
lity so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop a=
long the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.

*        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and T=
E information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replace=
s the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.

*        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configura=
tion to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, pre=
fix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed int=
o the IGPs.

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which the=
re is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the curren=
t network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in =
the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working g=
roup.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want t=
o take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether =
we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates o=
n specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the "thin end of =
the wedge".  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP wil=
l replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We nee=
d to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that=
 direction.

2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type =
of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can =
of course extend the charter.

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this=
 direction, and how far we should go.

I am hoping to get more than just "yes" or "no" answers to this question (a=
lthough that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear justifi=
cations for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run PCEP =
in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to solve =
the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  What ha=
rm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated with a=
dding these functions to PCEP?

Many thanks
Jon


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ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">You can use RESTCONF, =
NETCONF or anything similar (CLI ?) to provision paths as you can do with P=
CEP. Nothing prevents to do that.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Igor Bry=
skin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 24, 2017 14:53<br>
<b>To:</b> LITKOWSKI Stephane OBS/OINIS; Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Stephanie,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">You said:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&lt; Why not limiting =
PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic steering on path&#8230;=
) ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">But why not to use for=
 these purposes RESTCONF or gRPC/protobuffs? Do you see value in using expl=
icit model based SBIs vs implicit (TLV-) based protocols such as &nbsp;PCE?=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Igor<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pce [<a =
href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stepha=
ne.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 24, 2017 8:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick; <a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">As soon as we started =
with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN controller who takes de=
cision and programs the network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">So as many already men=
tioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><br>
IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it&#8217;s just bring a new =
kind of LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implem=
enting hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it nee=
ds to program nodes in the right order
 to prevent transient loops&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The question is more w=
hat is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and do we want to create a pr=
otocol that does everything , including coffee
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"> ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">We already have plenty=
 of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has strength and weaknesses=
 and I&#8217;m not sure that we need to mimic all features in all protocols=
. What is the gain here ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The best approach may =
be to use strength of protocols and use them for what they are good for:<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Example:<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">IGP has good flooding =
capability with &#8220;limited scale&#8221;: interesting when all receivers=
 need the same information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">BGP has good flooding =
capability with large scale and ability to target specific groups (using ro=
ute targets/communities) : interesting when groups of receivers need the sa=
me information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Netconf more generic a=
nd point to point<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8230;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">IMO: <o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need PCEP-LS ? =
=3D&gt; This can be discussed, we already have two protocols to exchange th=
e topology&#8230;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need to add conf=
iguration capabilities in PCEP =3D&gt; not sure, we have Netconf for that.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Why not limiting PCEP =
to path programming and path policies (traffic steering on path&#8230;) ?<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pce [<a =
href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Dear PCE WG<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The purpose of this email is to=
 initiate a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to =
replace the functions that are traditionally provided by the routing and si=
gnalling protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Originally, PCEP was designed w=
ith the goal of providing a distributed path computation service.&nbsp; In =
recent years we have extended that mission, and added path modification and=
 path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp;
 This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been per=
formed by the network management plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We are now starting to discuss =
proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP &#8211; capabilities that are tr=
aditionally part of routing and signalling.&nbsp; There were three examples=
 of this in the PCE working group meeting this
 week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP&#8217;s =
path instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-e=
nd by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This replaces the function al=
ready provided by RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to all=
ow link state and TE information to be communicated from the network to the=
 PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding function provided by the =
IGPs, or BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow dev=
ice-level configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE,=
 such as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again, this replaces functions that =
are already designed into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">These proposals are taking PCEP=
 in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.&nbsp; With these p=
roposals, one can envision a network in which there is no traditional contr=
ol plane.&nbsp; PCEP is used to communicate the
 current network state and to program flows.&nbsp; These proposals have the=
ir roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TE=
AS working group.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assuming that this is the directi=
on that we want to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However,
 there are two procedural issues, as I see it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We have not had an explicit discussion in the P=
CE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have h=
ad a few lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases re=
present the &#8220;thin end of the wedge&#8221;.&nbsp; If
 we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the f=
unctions available in the traditional control plane.&nbsp; We need to test =
whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We do not currently have a charter that allows =
us to add this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Depending on the outcome o=
f discussion (1), we can of course extend the charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">This email is to initiate the d=
iscussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the mailing list and share your th=
oughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction, and how far we=
 should go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I am hoping to get more than ju=
st &#8220;yes&#8221; or &#8220;no&#8221; answers to this question (although=
 that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I would like to hear justifica=
tions for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which production networks would run
 PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?&nbsp; Why is it not desirabl=
e to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plan=
e?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What would be the operational probl=
ems associated with adding these functions to PCEP?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Many thanks<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
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<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/xASGXjUSlES5Vc6C3ESE6B0KrtA>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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    Hi Jon, all,<br>
    <br>
    I do have strong concerns to extend PCEP as described in the e-mail
    below: <br>
    <br>
    Currently, IETF is working on YANG models covering TE-topology as
    well as TE-tunnels. This means that the NETCONF protocol can be used
    to<br>
    retrieve local topology information including link state information
    for the links connecting the node with its immediate neighbors. This
    information<br>
    can be used by the NETCONF client (could be an SDN controller) to
    put the entire TE-topology of a domain together.<br>
    <br>
    As far as connection control is concerned, NETCONF can also be used
    to either establish an e2e connections by configuring all nodes
    along the<br>
    the path or NETCONF can trigger connection establishment in the
    source node in case a GMPLS control plane is in place and RSVP-TE
    signaling<br>
    will be used for setting up the LSP. There is no obvious reason why
    PCEP would have any advantages over NETCONF/YANG. Introducing an<br>
    additional protocol supporting almost the same functionality will
    certainly not be helpful for the industry because vendors will have
    to implement<br>
    and test an additional protocol.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Dieter<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20.07.2017 17:22, Jonathan Hardwick
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal">Dear PCE WG<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">The purpose of this email is to initiate a
          discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to
          replace the functions that are traditionally provided by the
          routing and signalling protocols.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal
          of providing a distributed path computation service. In
          recent years we have extended that mission, and added path
          modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.
          This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally
          have been performed by the network management plane.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">We are now starting to discuss proposals to
          add more capabilities to PCEP  capabilities that are
          traditionally part of routing and signalling. There were
          three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this
          week.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
            style="font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit;"><span
              style="mso-list:Ignore"><span style="font:7.0pt
                &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->The PCECC proposal,
          which extends PCEPs path instantiation capability so that the
          PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop along
          the path. This replaces the function already provided by
          RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
            style="font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit;"><span
              style="mso-list:Ignore"><span style="font:7.0pt
                &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->The PCEP-LS proposal,
          which extends PCEP to allow link state and TE information to
          be communicated from the network to the PCE. This replaces
          the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or
          BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
            style="font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit;"><span
              style="mso-list:Ignore"><span style="font:7.0pt
                &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->The PCECC-SR proposal
          extends PCEP to allow device-level configuration to be
          communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs,
          prefix SIDs etc. Again, this replaces functions that are
          already designed into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">These proposals are taking PCEP in the
          direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol. With these
          proposals, one can envision a network in which there is no
          traditional control plane. PCEP is used to communicate the
          current network state and to program flows. These proposals
          have their roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are
          adopted within the TEAS working group. TEAS is very much
          assuming that this is the direction that we want to take PCEP
          in. However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
            style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt
              &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">
            </span></span><!--[endif]-->We have not had an explicit
          discussion in the PCE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in
          this direction. We have had a few lively debates on specific
          cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the thin end
          of the wedge. If we start down this path then we are
          accepting that PCEP will replace the functions available in
          the traditional control plane. We need to test whether there
          is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
            style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt
              &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">
            </span></span><!--[endif]-->We do not currently have a
          charter that allows us to add this type of capability to
          PCEP. Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can of
          course extend the charter.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">This email is to initiate the discussion
          (1). So, please reply to the mailing list and share your
          thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction,
          and how far we should go.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">I am hoping to get more than just yes or
          no answers to this question (although that would be better
          than no answer). I would like to hear justifications for or
          against. Such as, which production networks would run PCEP in
          place of a traditional control plane? Why is it not desirable
          to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional
          control plane? What harm could this do? What would be the
          operational problems associated with adding these functions to
          PCEP?<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Many thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Jon<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Pce mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Pce@ietf.org">Pce@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>


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From: "Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/Vimercate)" <sergio.belotti@nokia.com>
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Thread-Topic: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Hi Jon, all

Looking at the mail below, it seems as though you derive needs to extend PC=
EP , from the fact PCEP can be consider as having a root role in ACTN conte=
xt.
Well, while ACTN does not mandate any protocol specific in his architecture=
, the basic toolset  to operate ACTN architecture is based on NETCON/YANG m=
odel, as well described in the draft https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft=
-zhang-teas-actn-yang/ . Topology model is used at MPI level to get topolog=
y information augmented with needed technology specific information  and Tu=
nnel model  (and related technology specific augmentation) is used to creat=
e tunnel inside the network ,  for CMI,VN Yang model is used to specificall=
y operate on VN. No mandatory need for PCEP extension to cover ACTN functio=
nality, so I have a clear concern to go ahead with this request of PCEP ext=
ension as described in this mail.

Thanks
Sergio

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 5:22 PM
To: pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Dear PCE WG

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally=
 provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and a=
dded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This h=
as added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed =
by the network management plane.

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP -=
 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  There=
 were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

  *   The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP's path instantiation capabilit=
y so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop alon=
g the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.
  *   The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and TE i=
nformation to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replaces t=
he link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.
  *   The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configuratio=
n to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, prefix=
 SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed into t=
he IGPs.

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which the=
re is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the curren=
t network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in =
the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working g=
roup.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want t=
o take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

  1.  We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether we=
 want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates on =
specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the "thin end of th=
e wedge".  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will =
replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We need =
to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that d=
irection.
  2.  We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type of=
 capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can of=
 course extend the charter.

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this=
 direction, and how far we should go.

I am hoping to get more than just "yes" or "no" answers to this question (a=
lthough that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear justifi=
cations for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run PCEP =
in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to solve =
the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  What ha=
rm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated with a=
dding these functions to PCEP?

Many thanks
Jon


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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Jon, all<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Looking at the mail below, it seems as though you de=
rive needs to extend PCEP , from the fact PCEP can be consider as having a =
root role in ACTN context.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Well, while ACTN does not mandate any protocol speci=
fic in his architecture, the basic toolset&nbsp; to operate ACTN architectu=
re is based on NETCON/YANG model, as well described in the draft
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhang-teas-actn-yang/">ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhang-teas-actn-yang/</a> . Topology m=
odel is used at MPI level to get topology information augmented with needed=
 technology specific information &nbsp;and
 Tunnel model &nbsp;(and related technology specific augmentation) is used =
to create tunnel inside the network , &nbsp;for CMI,VN Yang model is used t=
o specifically operate on VN. No mandatory need for PCEP extension to cover=
 ACTN functionality, so I have a clear concern
 to go ahead with this request of PCEP extension as described in this mail.=
 <o:p>
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sergio<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On=
 Behalf Of
</b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 5:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> pce@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Dear PCE WG<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The purpose of this email is to=
 initiate a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to =
replace the functions that are traditionally provided by the routing and si=
gnalling protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Originally, PCEP was designed w=
ith the goal of providing a distributed path computation service.&nbsp; In =
recent years we have extended that mission, and added path modification and=
 path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp;
 This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been per=
formed by the network management plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We are now starting to discuss =
proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP &#8211; capabilities that are tr=
aditionally part of routing and signalling.&nbsp; There were three examples=
 of this in the PCE working group meeting this
 week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP&#8217;s p=
ath instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-en=
d by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This
 replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></li><=
li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 l=
fo2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow=
 link state and TE information to be communicated from the network to the P=
CE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding
 function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=
=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level =
configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as S=
RGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again,
 this replaces functions that are already designed into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p=
></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">These proposals are taking PCEP=
 in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.&nbsp; With these p=
roposals, one can envision a network in which there is no traditional contr=
ol plane.&nbsp; PCEP is used to communicate the
 current network state and to program flows.&nbsp; These proposals have the=
ir roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TE=
AS working group.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assuming that this is the directi=
on that we want to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However,
 there are two procedural issues, as I see it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo4"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We have not had an explicit discussion in the PC=
E WG about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have ha=
d a few lively debates on specific cases, like
 PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the &#8220;thin end of the wedge&#8221;=
.&nbsp; If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will rep=
lace the functions available in the traditional control plane.&nbsp; We nee=
d to test whether there is a consensus in the working
 group to move in that direction.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoLis=
tParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4"><span lang=3D=
"EN-GB">We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type =
of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we=
 can of course extend the
 charter.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">This email is to initiate the d=
iscussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the mailing list and share your th=
oughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction, and how far we=
 should go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I am hoping to get more than ju=
st &#8220;yes&#8221; or &#8220;no&#8221; answers to this question (although=
 that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I would like to hear justifica=
tions for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which production networks would run
 PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?&nbsp; Why is it not desirabl=
e to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plan=
e?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What would be the operational probl=
ems associated with adding these functions to PCEP?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Many thanks<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
To: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Stephanie,

You said that there are better ways to extract topologies and configure thi=
ngs than using PCEP.

You forgot to mention the issue of collecting telemetry and I hope you are =
not suggesting using PCEP for that. In fact, it is widely accepted that the=
 best way to go about the telemetry collection is via using gRPC/protobufs.=
 Considering that:

a)      gRPC can do all other things , including path provisioning on the d=
evices, policy pushing, topology discovery/configuration at least as well a=
s any other tool you mentioned (in fact, I believe far better);

b)     Daniele's point of operators requiring a single tool for all network=
 control purposes;

c)      gRPC being very well documented and tested open source project, ada=
ptable for big and small systems/devices
could you give a reason, why not to go with gRPC in the long term (and REST=
CONF in the short term) ?

Cheers,
Igor

From: stephane.litkowski@orange.com [mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 8:50 AM
To: Igor Bryskin; Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: RE: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Hi,

You can use RESTCONF, NETCONF or anything similar (CLI ?) to provision path=
s as you can do with PCEP. Nothing prevents to do that.

Brgds,

From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 14:53
To: LITKOWSKI Stephane OBS/OINIS; Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: RE: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Hi Stephanie,

You said:
< Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic stee=
ring on path...) ?

But why not to use for these purposes RESTCONF or gRPC/protobuffs? Do you s=
ee value in using explicit model based SBIs vs implicit (TLV-) based protoc=
ols such as  PCE?

Cheers,,
Igor


From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of stephane.litkowski@ora=
nge.com<mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 8:03 AM
To: Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Hi,

As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN c=
ontroller who takes decision and programs the network.
So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.

IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it's just bring a new kind o=
f LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implementing=
 hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it needs to =
program nodes in the right order to prevent transient loops...

The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and do =
we want to create a protocol that does everything , including coffee :) ?
We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has s=
trength and weaknesses and I'm not sure that we need to mimic all features =
in all protocols. What is the gain here ?
The best approach may be to use strength of protocols and use them for what=
 they are good for:
Example:
IGP has good flooding capability with "limited scale": interesting when all=
 receivers need the same information
BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and ability to target spe=
cific groups (using route targets/communities) : interesting when groups of=
 receivers need the same information
Netconf more generic and point to point
...


IMO:
do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D> This can be discussed, we already have two protoc=
ols to exchange the topology...
do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =3D> not sure, we have=
 Netconf for that.
Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic steeri=
ng on path...) ?

Brgds,

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22
To: pce@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Dear PCE WG

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally=
 provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and a=
dded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This h=
as added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed =
by the network management plane.

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP -=
 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  There=
 were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

*        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP's path instantiation capabi=
lity so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop a=
long the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.

*        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and T=
E information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replace=
s the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.

*        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configura=
tion to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, pre=
fix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed int=
o the IGPs.

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which the=
re is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the curren=
t network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in =
the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working g=
roup.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want t=
o take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether =
we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates o=
n specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the "thin end of =
the wedge".  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP wil=
l replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We nee=
d to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that=
 direction.

2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type =
of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can =
of course extend the charter.

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this=
 direction, and how far we should go.

I am hoping to get more than just "yes" or "no" answers to this question (a=
lthough that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear justifi=
cations for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run PCEP =
in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to solve =
the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  What ha=
rm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated with a=
dding these functions to PCEP?

Many thanks
Jon


___________________________________________________________________________=
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

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modified, changed or falsified.

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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Stephanie,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">You said that there ar=
e better ways to extract topologies and configure things than using PCEP.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">You forgot to mention =
the issue of collecting telemetry and I hope you are not suggesting using P=
CEP for that. In fact, it is widely accepted that the best way to go about =
the telemetry collection is via using
 gRPC/protobufs. Considering that:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"m=
so-list:Ignore">a)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">gRPC can do al=
l other things , including path provisioning on the devices, policy pushing=
, topology discovery/configuration at least as well as any other tool you m=
entioned (in fact, I believe far better);<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"m=
so-list:Ignore">b)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Daniele&#8217;=
s point of operators requiring a single tool for all network control purpos=
es;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"m=
so-list:Ignore">c)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">gRPC being ver=
y well documented and tested open source project, adaptable for big and sma=
ll systems/devices<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">could you give a reaso=
n, why not to go with gRPC in the long term (and RESTCONF in the short term=
) ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Igor<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> stephane=
.litkowski@orange.com [mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 25, 2017 8:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Igor Bryskin; Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">You can use RESTCONF, =
NETCONF or anything similar (CLI ?) to provision paths as you can do with P=
CEP. Nothing prevents to do that.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Igor Bry=
skin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 24, 2017 14:53<br>
<b>To:</b> LITKOWSKI Stephane OBS/OINIS; Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org<br=
>
<b>Cc:</b> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Stephanie,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">You said:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&lt; Why not limiting =
PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic steering on path&#8230;=
) ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">But why not to use for=
 these purposes RESTCONF or gRPC/protobuffs? Do you see value in using expl=
icit model based SBIs vs implicit (TLV-) based protocols such as &nbsp;PCE?=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Igor<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pce [<a =
href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stepha=
ne.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 24, 2017 8:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick; <a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">As soon as we started =
with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN controller who takes de=
cision and programs the network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">So as many already men=
tioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><br>
IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it&#8217;s just bring a new =
kind of LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implem=
enting hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it nee=
ds to program nodes in the right order
 to prevent transient loops&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The question is more w=
hat is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and do we want to create a pr=
otocol that does everything , including coffee
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"> ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">We already have plenty=
 of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has strength and weaknesses=
 and I&#8217;m not sure that we need to mimic all features in all protocols=
. What is the gain here ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The best approach may =
be to use strength of protocols and use them for what they are good for:<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Example:<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">IGP has good flooding =
capability with &#8220;limited scale&#8221;: interesting when all receivers=
 need the same information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">BGP has good flooding =
capability with large scale and ability to target specific groups (using ro=
ute targets/communities) : interesting when groups of receivers need the sa=
me information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Netconf more generic a=
nd point to point<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8230;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">IMO: <o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need PCEP-LS ? =
=3D&gt; This can be discussed, we already have two protocols to exchange th=
e topology&#8230;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">do we need to add conf=
iguration capabilities in PCEP =3D&gt; not sure, we have Netconf for that.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Why not limiting PCEP =
to path programming and path policies (traffic steering on path&#8230;) ?<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pce [<a =
href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Dear PCE WG<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The purpose of this email is to=
 initiate a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to =
replace the functions that are traditionally provided by the routing and si=
gnalling protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Originally, PCEP was designed w=
ith the goal of providing a distributed path computation service.&nbsp; In =
recent years we have extended that mission, and added path modification and=
 path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp;
 This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been per=
formed by the network management plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We are now starting to discuss =
proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP &#8211; capabilities that are tr=
aditionally part of routing and signalling.&nbsp; There were three examples=
 of this in the PCE working group meeting this
 week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP&#8217;s =
path instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-e=
nd by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This replaces the function al=
ready provided by RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to all=
ow link state and TE information to be communicated from the network to the=
 PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding function provided by the =
IGPs, or BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow dev=
ice-level configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE,=
 such as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again, this replaces functions that =
are already designed into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">These proposals are taking PCEP=
 in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.&nbsp; With these p=
roposals, one can envision a network in which there is no traditional contr=
ol plane.&nbsp; PCEP is used to communicate the
 current network state and to program flows.&nbsp; These proposals have the=
ir roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TE=
AS working group.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assuming that this is the directi=
on that we want to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However,
 there are two procedural issues, as I see it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We have not had an explicit discussion in the P=
CE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have h=
ad a few lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases re=
present the &#8220;thin end of the wedge&#8221;.&nbsp; If
 we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the f=
unctions available in the traditional control plane.&nbsp; We need to test =
whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We do not currently have a charter that allows =
us to add this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Depending on the outcome o=
f discussion (1), we can of course extend the charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">This email is to initiate the d=
iscussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the mailing list and share your th=
oughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction, and how far we=
 should go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I am hoping to get more than ju=
st &#8220;yes&#8221; or &#8220;no&#8221; answers to this question (although=
 that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I would like to hear justifica=
tions for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which production networks would run
 PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?&nbsp; Why is it not desirabl=
e to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plan=
e?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What would be the operational probl=
ems associated with adding these functions to PCEP?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Many thanks<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
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From: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
To: Mahendra Singh Negi <mahendrasingh@huawei.com>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, 'Julien Meuric' <julien.meuric@orange.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.dhody@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/MusGy1iyJJd4JILRafcOu2Cowe8>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Mahendra, many thanks for your input.

PCE WG, we have a backwards compatible proposal on the table which, apart f=
rom making a special case of SR-PCE-CAPABILITY, seems reasonably clean (or,=
 at least, not seriously broken).  Shall we go forwards with that?

Best regards
Jon


From: Mahendra Singh Negi [mailto:mahendrasingh@huawei.com]
Sent: 25 July 2017 13:12
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Julien Meuric' <julien.meuric@orange.com>; Jonath=
an Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; pce@ietf.org; Dhruv Dhody <=
dhruv.dhody@huawei.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@=
ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-i=
etf-pce-lsp-setup-type?

Dear All,

This is to answer on implantation row, apologies for the delayed response, =
 YES we do have our PCEP solutions deployed in mixed SR/RSVP-TE environment=
s.
I am afraid any non-backward compatible changes will break our solution. So=
 hope we choose a backward compatible solution.

Regards,
Mahendra (Huawei Tech India Pvt Ltd)

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
Sent: 25 July 2017 16:26
To: 'Julien Meuric'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; pce@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-=
type@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-p=
ce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-i=
etf-pce-lsp-setup-type?

Sighing slightly:-)

If, as may be the case, there is a demand to make this work either as curre=
ntly specified or to be seamlessly interoperable with what is already speci=
fied then so be it. Let's make that as a conscious decision.

However, I think that using 7120 as an "excuse" is a bad idea. What 7120 is=
 saying is that the allocated code point must show some stability in meanin=
g from the point of early allocation on to RFC (just as it would need to if=
 the RFC was revised). But that is not saying that, upon noticing that we a=
re a herd of lemmings rushing towards the cliff we must say "We have always=
 rushed towards the cliff. Our parents rushed towards the cliff. We must co=
ntinue even if it means we plunge to our deaths."

Of course, nothing so dramatic, but...

If the current specification works well - stay with it.
If the current specification works but is clumsy - tweak it in a backward c=
ompatible way
If the current specification is broken in a minor way - fix it in a backwar=
d compatible way
If the current specification is more seriously broken - burn a new code poi=
nt to fix it

In my earlier emails I was only speculating on "how I would have done this =
if starting from scratch." Obviously (?) I should have participated in WG d=
iscussions much earlier in the cycle, and as a result my opinion really onl=
y counts if either:
- the current specification is more seriously broken
or
- there is no WG desire to stick close to the current specification.

Clearly, although people who implement against I-Ds are doing so at their o=
wn risk, we should not unnecessarily burden early implementations with chan=
ges just for the sake of change. There is a sliding scale of "better ways t=
o do things" that incorporates "it's a bit messy," "it will be easier to ma=
intain and extend," all the way up to "it's broken." The WG will want to wo=
rk out where we are on that scale and weigh it against the cost and inconve=
nience of change. Shipping in software may be one measure. Deployed and in =
use is another measure.

Cheers,
Adrian

From: Julien Meuric [mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com]
Sent: 25 July 2017 09:31
To: Jonathan Hardwick; adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; pce=
@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-=
type@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-p=
ce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-i=
etf-pce-lsp-setup-type?

Hi,

I agree that capability bitmap with optional capability-specific sub-TLVs w=
ould be the way to go from scratch. However the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY already h=
as an early allocated codepoint, and RFC 7120 says that "if there is a chan=
ge, implementations based on the earlier and later specifications must be s=
eamlessly interoperable."
As a result, it seems to me that adding this new format may require that th=
e I-D keeps documenting an optional SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV for legacy reason=
s.

Cheers,

Julien
Jul. 25, 2017 - Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com<mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@m=
etaswitch.com>:
I agree that allowing optional sub-TLVs is a good thing.  However, this str=
ongly suggests that SR-PCE-CAPABILITY should become a sub-TLV, which is a n=
on-backwards compatible change.  So, we are back to my original question.

Implementers - any views?

Cheers
Jon


From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
Sent: 24 July 2017 19:51

Yes to that, Jon. But what happens when the next thing comes along?

Since sub-TLVs can be present, I would suggest to use a Setup-Type TLV with=
 a bit map as I previously described in my email, and add optional sub-TLVs=
 dependent on the bits that are set.

Isn't that the best of both worlds?

Adrian

From: Jonathan Hardwick [mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com]
Sent: 24 July 2017 09:15

Adrian,

The SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also conta=
ins information about the maximum SID depth.  However, I like your idea and=
 I think that it gives us a better way to do this without breaking backward=
s compatibility with existing SR implementations.

Suppose we introduce a setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, =
and assign a bit to each setup type.
If the TLV is absent, then RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is absent and the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is present, then RSVP-TE=
 and SR are supported.  This retains backwards compatibility with existing =
SR implementations.
If the TLV is present, then the bits indicate which setup types are support=
ed.

We would modify the LSP setup type draft to say that implementations suppor=
ting path setup types other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type TLV.

It's not exactly beautiful, but it's not as ugly as RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT.

Cheers
Jon


From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
Sent: 21 July 2017 19:55

Well, personally, if I was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each=
 bit flag!
I would have a Setup-Type TLV.
If that TLV is absent, RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is present, each bit means that a different setup type is suppor=
ted.

That means...
Legacy nodes don't include the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE
Legacy nodes that receive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to=
 the Open (leaving a new node to re-Open for RSVP-TE only).
New nodes include the TLV and so indicate explicitly what they support.

I know it is late for that type of change, so how we proceed might depend o=
n what implementations have done already.

Adrian

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: 21 July 2017 16:07

Dear PCE-ers

I don't want to distract from the SDN topic too much, but we have an import=
ant decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.

The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no way for a PCEP speaker=
 to indicate that it can't (or won't) support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.=
  It is entirely plausible that a node might not support RSVP-TE, or else h=
ave it disabled, for example in an SR-only network.

We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should be changed to allow a sp=
eaker to declare that they do or don't have support for RSVP-TE paths.  The=
re are two proposals.


1.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include =
a (new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.  If this TLV if missin=
g, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) then it=
 means that the speaker does not support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.

2.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include =
a (new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON'T support =
RSVP-TE.  If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do support R=
SVP-TE.

The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards compatible.  Any existing =
SR implementation which also supports RSVP will not currently send this new=
 capability.  So, if we make change (1) then forwards-level implementations=
 will incorrectly conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not=
 support RSVP-TE.

The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my opinion we should only d=
o something ugly with a new protocol extension if we simply can't avoid doi=
ng it.

And so the question: are there any *deployments* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP=
-TE environment that would be broken if we made change (1)?

Thanks
Jon



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Mahendra, many thanks for your input.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">PCE WG, we have a backwards compatible proposal on the table which, ap=
art from making a special case of SR-PCE-CAPABILITY, seems reasonably clean=
 (or, at least, not seriously broken).&nbsp;
 Shall we go forwards with that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:windowtext">F=
rom:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:windowtext"> Mahendra Si=
ngh Negi [mailto:mahendrasingh@huawei.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2017 13:12<br>
<b>To:</b> adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Julien Meuric' &lt;julien.meuric@orange.co=
m&gt;; Jonathan Hardwick &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;; pce@ietf=
.org; Dhruv Dhody &lt;dhruv.dhody@huawei.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-segment-r=
outing@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;background:#F7F7F7">Dear All,<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;background:#F7F7F7"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;background:#F7F7F7">This is to answer o=
n implantation row, apologies for the delayed response, &nbsp;YES we do hav=
e our PCEP solutions deployed in mixed SR/RSVP-TE environments.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;background:#F7F7F7">I am afraid any non=
-backward compatible changes will break our solution. So hope we choose a b=
ackward compatible solution.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;background:#F7F7F7"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;background:#F7F7F7">Regards,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;background:#F7F7F7">Mahendra (Huawei Te=
ch India Pvt Ltd)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot=
;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"> Pce [</span><a href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@i=
etf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif=
;color:windowtext">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Adrian Farrel<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2017 16:26<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Julien Meuric'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; </span><a href=3D"mailto:p=
ce@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">pce@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:wind=
owtext"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&qu=
ot;,sans-serif">draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-se=
rif;color:windowtext">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-s=
erif">draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:windowtext"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Sighing slightly:-)<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If, as may be the case=
, there is a demand to make this work either as currently specified or to b=
e seamlessly interoperable with what is already specified then so be it. Le=
t's make that as a conscious decision.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">However, I think that =
using 7120 as an &quot;excuse&quot; is a bad idea. What 7120 is saying is t=
hat the allocated code point must show some stability in meaning from the p=
oint of early allocation on to RFC (just as it
 would need to if the RFC was revised). But that is not saying that, upon n=
oticing that we are a herd of lemmings rushing towards the cliff we must sa=
y &quot;We have always rushed towards the cliff. Our parents rushed towards=
 the cliff. We must continue even if
 it means we plunge to our deaths.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Of course, nothing so =
dramatic, but...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the current specifi=
cation works well - stay with it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the current specifi=
cation works but is clumsy - tweak it in a backward compatible way<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the current specifi=
cation is broken in a minor way - fix it in a backward compatible way<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the current specifi=
cation is more seriously broken - burn a new code point to fix it<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In my earlier emails I=
 was only speculating on &quot;how I would have done this if starting from =
scratch.&quot; Obviously (?) I should have participated in WG discussions m=
uch earlier in the cycle, and as a result my opinion
 really only counts if either:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- the current specific=
ation is more seriously broken<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">or<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- there is no WG desir=
e to stick close to the current specification.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Clearly, although peop=
le who implement against I-Ds are doing so at their own risk, we should not=
 unnecessarily burden early implementations with changes just for the sake =
of change. There is a sliding scale
 of &quot;better ways to do things&quot; that incorporates &quot;it's a bit=
 messy,&quot; &quot;it will be easier to maintain and extend,&quot; all the=
 way up to &quot;it's broken.&quot; The WG will want to work out where we a=
re on that scale and weigh it against the cost and inconvenience of change.
 Shipping in software may be one measure. Deployed and in use is another me=
asure.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot=
;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"> Julien Meuric [</span><a href=3D"mailto:jul=
ien.meuric@orange.com"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com</span=
></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahom=
a&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2017 09:31<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick; </span><a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&qu=
ot;,sans-serif">adrian@olddog.co.uk</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtex=
t">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">pce@ietf.org</span></=
a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&q=
uot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&qu=
ot;,sans-serif">draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-se=
rif;color:windowtext">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-s=
erif">draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:windowtext"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi,<br>
<br>
I agree that capability bitmap with optional capability-specific sub-TLVs w=
ould be the way to go from scratch. However the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY already h=
as an early allocated codepoint, and RFC 7120 says that &quot;if there is a=
 change, implementations based on the
 earlier and later specifications must be seamlessly interoperable.&quot;<b=
r>
As a result, it seems to me that adding this new format may require that th=
e I-D keeps documenting an optional SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV for legacy reason=
s.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Julien<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jul. 25, 2017 - <a href=3D"mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@=
metaswitch.com">
Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com</a>:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I agree that allowing =
optional sub-TLVs is a good thing.&nbsp; However, this strongly suggests th=
at SR-PCE-CAPABILITY should become a sub-TLV, which is a non-backwards comp=
atible change.&nbsp; So, we are back to my original
 question.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Implementers &#8211; a=
ny views?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jon</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Adrian Farrel [</span><a href=3D"m=
ailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk<=
/span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24 July 2017 19:51</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Yes to that, Jon. But =
what happens when the next thing comes along?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Since sub-TLVs can be =
present, I would suggest to use a Setup-Type TLV with a bit map as I previo=
usly described in my email, and add optional sub-TLVs dependent on the bits=
 that are set.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Isn't that the best of=
 both worlds?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">Fro=
m:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Jonathan Hardwick [</span><a href=3D"mailto:Jo=
nathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@met=
aswitch.com</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24 July 2017 09:15</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian,</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The SR-PCE-CAPABILITY =
TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also contains information about =
the maximum SID depth.&nbsp; However, I like your idea and I think that it =
gives us a better way to do this without
 breaking backwards compatibility with existing SR implementations.</span><=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Suppose we introduce a=
 setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, and assign a bit to ea=
ch setup type.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is absent, =
then RSVP-TE is supported.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is absent a=
nd the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is present, then RSVP-TE and SR are supported.=
&nbsp; This retains backwards compatibility with existing SR implementation=
s.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is present,=
 then the bits indicate which setup types are supported.</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">We would modify the LS=
P setup type draft to say that implementations supporting path setup types =
other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type TLV.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">It&#8217;s not exactly=
 beautiful, but it&#8217;s not as ugly as RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT.</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jon</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Adrian Farrel [</span><a href=3D"m=
ailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk<=
/span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 19:55</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Well, personally, if I=
 was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each bit flag!</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I would have a Setup-T=
ype TLV.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If that TLV is absent,=
 RSVP-TE is supported.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is present,=
 each bit means that a different setup type is supported.</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That means...</span><o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Legacy nodes don't inc=
lude the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Legacy nodes that rece=
ive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to the Open (leaving a n=
ew node to re-Open for RSVP-TE only).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">New nodes include the =
TLV and so indicate explicitly what they support.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I know it is late for =
that type of change, so how we proceed might depend on what implementations=
 have done already.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">Fro=
m:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Pce [</span><a href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf=
.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Taho=
ma&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 16:07</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear PCE-ers<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#8217;t want to distract from the SDN topic to=
o much, but we have an important decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-=
setup-type.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no=
 way for a PCEP speaker to indicate that it can&#8217;t (or won&#8217;t) su=
pport RSVP-TE as a path setup type.&nbsp; It is entirely plausible that a n=
ode might not support RSVP-TE, or else have it disabled,
 for example in an SR-only network.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should b=
e changed to allow a speaker to declare that they do or don&#8217;t have su=
pport for RSVP-TE paths.&nbsp; There are two proposals.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt">1.<span style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman ,serif&quot;,serif">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a=
 (new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.&nbsp; If this TLV if mi=
ssing, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) the=
n it means that the speaker does not
 support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt">2.<span style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman ,serif&quot;,serif">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a=
 (new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON&#8217;T sup=
port RSVP-TE.&nbsp; If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do=
 support RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards com=
patible.&nbsp; Any existing SR implementation which also supports RSVP will=
 not currently send this new capability.&nbsp; So, if we make change (1) th=
en forwards-level implementations will incorrectly
 conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not support RSVP-TE.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my o=
pinion we should only do something ugly with a new protocol extension if we=
 simply can&#8217;t avoid doing it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And so the question: are there any *<b>deployments</=
b>* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP-TE environment that would be broken if we ma=
de change (1)?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jon<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Hi Sergio,

We also have a PCE WG document which describes the use of PCEP in ACTN -
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-applicability-actn/. Yes,
ACTN solution via Yang models is perfectly valid. But that should not be a
reason, to stop work on PCEP IMHO.

Regards,
Dhruv


On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 8:22 PM, Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/Vimercate) <
sergio.belotti@nokia.com> wrote:

> Hi Jon, all
>
>
>
> Looking at the mail below, it seems as though you derive needs to extend
> PCEP , from the fact PCEP can be consider as having a root role in ACTN
> context.
>
> Well, while ACTN does not mandate any protocol specific in his
> architecture, the basic toolset  to operate ACTN architecture is based on
> NETCON/YANG model, as well described in the draft
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhang-teas-actn-yang/ . Topology
> model is used at MPI level to get topology information augmented with
> needed technology specific information  and Tunnel model  (and related
> technology specific augmentation) is used to create tunnel inside the
> network ,  for CMI,VN Yang model is used to specifically operate on VN. N=
o
> mandatory need for PCEP extension to cover ACTN functionality, so I have =
a
> clear concern to go ahead with this request of PCEP extension as describe=
d
> in this mail.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Sergio
>
>
>
> *From:* Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jonathan Hardwic=
k
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 5:22 PM
> *To:* pce@ietf.org
> *Cc:* pce-chairs@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
>
>
>
> Dear PCE WG
>
>
>
> The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we
> want to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are
> traditionally provided by the routing and signalling protocols.
>
>
>
> Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed
> path computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission,
> and added path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.
> This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been
> performed by the network management plane.
>
>
>
> We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP
> =E2=80=93 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signall=
ing.
> There were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this
> week.
>
>    - The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path instantiation
>    capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching=
 each
>    hop along the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RS=
VP-TE.
>    - The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and TE
>    information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This repl=
aces
>    the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.
>    - The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level
>    configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such=
 as
>    SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are alrea=
dy
>    designed into the IGPs.
>
>
>
> These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged
> SDN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which
> there is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the
> current network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their
> roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEA=
S
> working group.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction tha=
t
> we want to take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I
> see it.
>
>    1. We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether
>    we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively deba=
tes
>    on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the =E2=80=
=9Cthin end of
>    the wedge=E2=80=9D.  If we start down this path then we are accepting =
that PCEP
>    will replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.=
  We
>    need to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move=
 in
>    that direction.
>    2. We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type
>    of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we=
 can
>    of course extend the charter.
>
>
>
> This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the
> mailing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended i=
n
> this direction, and how far we should go.
>
>
>
> I am hoping to get more than just =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=
=80=9D answers to this question
> (although that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear
> justifications for or against.  Such as, which production networks would
> run PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirabl=
e
> to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control
> plane?  What harm could this do?  What would be the operational problems
> associated with adding these functions to PCEP?
>
>
>
> Many thanks
>
> Jon
>
>
>

--94eb2c0c9aeacc89ff055525ce4e
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&quot;tr=
ebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)">Hi Sergio,=C2=A0</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&quot;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:&quot;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)">We al=
so have a PCE WG document which describes the use of PCEP in ACTN -=C2=A0<a=
 href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-applicability-actn=
/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-applicability-actn/</a>.=
 Yes, ACTN solution via Yang models is perfectly valid. But that should not=
 be a reason, to stop work on PCEP IMHO.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:&quot;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12=
,52,61)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&quot;=
trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)">Regards,</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&quot;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif=
;color:rgb(12,52,61)">Dhruv</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;trebuchet ms&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(12,52,61)">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 8:22 PM, Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/Vimercate) <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sergio.belotti@nokia.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">sergio.belotti@nokia.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-2565332504545312238WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Jon, all<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Looking at the mail below, it seems as though you de=
rive needs to extend PCEP , from the fact PCEP can be consider as having a =
root role in ACTN context.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Well, while ACTN does not mandate any protocol speci=
fic in his architecture, the basic toolset=C2=A0 to operate ACTN architectu=
re is based on NETCON/YANG model, as well described in the draft
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhang-teas-actn-yang/" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-zhang-teas-actn=
-<wbr>yang/</a> . Topology model is used at MPI level to get topology infor=
mation augmented with needed technology specific information =C2=A0and
 Tunnel model =C2=A0(and related technology specific augmentation) is used =
to create tunnel inside the network , =C2=A0for CMI,VN Yang model is used t=
o specifically operate on VN. No mandatory need for PCEP extension to cover=
 ACTN functionality, so I have a clear concern
 to go ahead with this request of PCEP extension as described in this mail.=
 <u></u>
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sergio<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D""><b>From:</b> Pce [mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <=
b>On Behalf Of
</b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
</span><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 5:22 PM<span class=3D""><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pce@ietf.org</=
a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pce-cha=
irs@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Dear PCE WG<u></u><u></u></span=
></p><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The purpose of this email is to=
 initiate a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to =
replace the functions that are traditionally provided by the routing and si=
gnalling protocols.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Originally, PCEP was designed w=
ith the goal of providing a distributed path computation service.=C2=A0 In =
recent years we have extended that mission, and added path modification and=
 path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.=C2=A0
 This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been per=
formed by the network management plane.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We are now starting to discuss =
proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP =E2=80=93 capabilities that are =
traditionally part of routing and signalling.=C2=A0 There were three exampl=
es of this in the PCE working group meeting this
 week.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"m_-2565332504545312238MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0=
in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s p=
ath instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-en=
d by touching each hop along the path.=C2=A0 This
 replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.<u></u><u></u></span></l=
i><li class=3D"m_-2565332504545312238MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left=
:0in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allo=
w link state and TE information to be communicated from the network to the =
PCE.=C2=A0 This replaces the link state flooding
 function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li cla=
ss=3D"m_-2565332504545312238MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in"><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level =
configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as S=
RGBs, prefix SIDs etc.=C2=A0 Again,
 this replaces functions that are already designed into the IGPs.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">These proposals are taking PCEP=
 in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.=C2=A0 With these p=
roposals, one can envision a network in which there is no traditional contr=
ol plane.=C2=A0 PCEP is used to communicate the
 current network state and to program flows.=C2=A0 These proposals have the=
ir roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TE=
AS working group.=C2=A0 TEAS is very much assuming that this is the directi=
on that we want to take PCEP in.=C2=A0 However,
 there are two procedural issues, as I see it.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</span><ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"m_-2565332504545312238MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0=
in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE =
WG about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.=C2=A0 We have had =
a few lively debates on specific cases, like
 PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the =E2=80=9Cthin end of the wedge=E2=
=80=9D.=C2=A0 If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP wi=
ll replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.=C2=A0 =
We need to test whether there is a consensus in the working
 group to move in that direction.<u></u><u></u></span></li><span class=3D""=
><li class=3D"m_-2565332504545312238MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We do not currently have a charter that allows us=
 to add this type of capability to PCEP.=C2=A0 Depending on the outcome of =
discussion (1), we can of course extend the
 charter.<u></u><u></u></span></li></span></ol><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">This email is to initiate the d=
iscussion (1).=C2=A0 So, please reply to the mailing list and share your th=
oughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction, and how far we=
 should go.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I am hoping to get more than ju=
st =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D answers to this question (=
although that would be better than no answer).=C2=A0 I would like to hear j=
ustifications for or against.=C2=A0 Such as, which production networks woul=
d run
 PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?=C2=A0 Why is it not desirabl=
e to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plan=
e?=C2=A0 What harm could this do?=C2=A0 What would be the operational probl=
ems associated with adding these functions to PCEP?<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Many thanks<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jon<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c0c9aeacc89ff055525ce4e--


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On 25/07/17 03:58, Zhenghaomian wrote:
> The point I would like to raise is how to deal with PCEP with other
> protocols. Currently it seems that there is some competition with BGP i=
n
> link state (both binary but Optical/MW CANNOT run BGP), and also with
> Netconf/RESTconf on device configuration (well they are text).

I would like to dispel the notion that NETCONF/RESTCONF are inherently
text-based. While they operate on XML Information Set and their
currently-standardized transports are based on JSON/XML, there is no
reason why you cannot use session-negotiated binary schema-informed
encoding, which can in fact be more compact than PCEP.

For NETCONF all you need to do is change the encoding at the Messages
layer (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-1.2). You can
negotiate that at session setup time, for example using the approach
proposed in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-varga-netconf-exi-capabilit=
y.

Regards,
Robert


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From: "Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/Vimercate)" <sergio.belotti@nokia.com>
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Thread-Topic: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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From: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/HZStl4nmYRvSSjB5_s2jc7fnmlg>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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PCEP-LS looks to me like an experiment.

For IP, the value proposition of PCEP-LS compared to e.g. BGP-LS is unclear=
 to me.

For optical nodes, I think an NMS or controller can deal with this without =
requiring PCEP-LS, e.g., using NETCONF.

For communication between controllers, typical use cases I am aware of requ=
ire functions beyond the PCEP extensions listed below, so it is not obvious=
 whether PCEP extensions would be sufficient.

Do we really want to throw spaghettis to the wall?

Michael


From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 5:22 PM
To: pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

Dear PCE WG

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally=
 provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and a=
dded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This h=
as added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed =
by the network management plane.

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP -=
 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  There=
 were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

  *   The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP's path instantiation capabilit=
y so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop alon=
g the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.
  *   The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and TE i=
nformation to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replaces t=
he link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.
  *   The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configuratio=
n to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, prefix=
 SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed into t=
he IGPs.

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which the=
re is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the curren=
t network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in =
the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working g=
roup.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want t=
o take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

  1.  We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether we=
 want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates on =
specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the "thin end of th=
e wedge".  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will =
replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We need =
to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that d=
irection.
  2.  We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type of=
 capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can of=
 course extend the charter.

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this=
 direction, and how far we should go.

I am hoping to get more than just "yes" or "no" answers to this question (a=
lthough that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear justifi=
cations for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run PCEP =
in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to solve =
the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  What ha=
rm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated with a=
dding these functions to PCEP?

Many thanks
Jon


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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">PCEP-LS looks to me like an experiment.<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For IP, the value proposition of PCEP-LS compared to=
 e.g. BGP-LS is unclear to me.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For optical nodes, I think an NMS or controller can =
deal with this without requiring PCEP-LS, e.g., using NETCONF.<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For communication between controllers, typical use c=
ases I am aware of require functions beyond the PCEP extensions listed belo=
w, so it is not obvious whether PCEP extensions would be sufficient.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do we really want to throw spaghettis to the wall? <=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On=
 Behalf Of
</b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 5:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> pce@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> pce-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Dear PCE WG<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The purpose of this email is to=
 initiate a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to =
replace the functions that are traditionally provided by the routing and si=
gnalling protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Originally, PCEP was designed w=
ith the goal of providing a distributed path computation service.&nbsp; In =
recent years we have extended that mission, and added path modification and=
 path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp;
 This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been per=
formed by the network management plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We are now starting to discuss =
proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP &#8211; capabilities that are tr=
aditionally part of routing and signalling.&nbsp; There were three examples=
 of this in the PCE working group meeting this
 week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><=
span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP&#8217;s path ins=
tantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by to=
uching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This replaces
 the function already provided by RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span lang=
=3D"EN-GB">The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and=
 TE information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.&nbsp; This =
replaces the link state flooding function
 provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"=
>The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configuration to =
be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, prefix SIDs=
 etc.&nbsp; Again, this
 replaces functions that are already designed into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">These proposals are taking PCEP=
 in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.&nbsp; With these p=
roposals, one can envision a network in which there is no traditional contr=
ol plane.&nbsp; PCEP is used to communicate the
 current network state and to program flows.&nbsp; These proposals have the=
ir roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TE=
AS working group.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assuming that this is the directi=
on that we want to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However,
 there are two procedural issues, as I see it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0cm" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo6"><=
span lang=3D"EN-GB">We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG ab=
out whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have had a few=
 lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS,
 but those cases represent the &#8220;thin end of the wedge&#8221;.&nbsp; I=
f we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the =
functions available in the traditional control plane.&nbsp; We need to test=
 whether there is a consensus in the working group to
 move in that direction.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo6"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We do no=
t currently have a charter that allows us to add this type of capability to=
 PCEP.&nbsp; Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can of course e=
xtend the charter.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">This email is to initiate the d=
iscussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the mailing list and share your th=
oughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction, and how far we=
 should go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I am hoping to get more than ju=
st &#8220;yes&#8221; or &#8220;no&#8221; answers to this question (although=
 that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I would like to hear justifica=
tions for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which production networks would run
 PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?&nbsp; Why is it not desirabl=
e to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plan=
e?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What would be the operational probl=
ems associated with adding these functions to PCEP?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Many thanks<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Cyril Margaria <cyril.margaria@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:25:25 -0400
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To: "LITKOWSKI Stephane DTF/DERX" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
Cc: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/dYM1GzGtpFzMypF0Pfx6L3IJuFg>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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+1,

PCEP is rather efficient at dealing with paths and constraints.
PCE-CC , as someone mentioned earlier, can be seen as 1-hop LSPs, there
could be minimum protocol extensions.

PCEP-LS is redoing links-state flooding over PCEP, using the same elements
as existing protocols. This sounds OK as an experiment but the operational
or scale advantages to it seems very limited.

I don't think we should overload PCEP to carry IGP information (nor device
configuration)

My 2 cents
Cyril


On 24 July 2017 at 08:02, <stephane.litkowski@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN
> controller who takes decision and programs the network.
>
> So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.
>
>
> IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it=E2=80=99s just bring a =
new kind
> of LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller
> implementing hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence a=
s
> it needs to program nodes in the right order to prevent transient loops=
=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
> The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and d=
o
> we want to create a protocol that does everything , including coffee J ?
>
> We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has
> strength and weaknesses and I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need to mimic al=
l features
> in all protocols. What is the gain here ?
>
> The best approach may be to use strength of protocols and use them for
> what they are good for:
>
> Example:
>
> IGP has good flooding capability with =E2=80=9Climited scale=E2=80=9D: in=
teresting when
> all receivers need the same information
>
> BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and ability to target
> specific groups (using route targets/communities) : interesting when grou=
ps
> of receivers need the same information
>
> Netconf more generic and point to point
>
> =E2=80=A6
>
>
>
>
>
> IMO:
>
> do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D> This can be discussed, we already have two
> protocols to exchange the topology=E2=80=A6
>
> do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =3D> not sure, we ha=
ve
> Netconf for that.
>
> Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic
> steering on path=E2=80=A6) ?
>
>
>
> Brgds,
>
>
>
> *From:* Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jonathan Hardwic=
k
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22
> *To:* pce@ietf.org
> *Cc:* pce-chairs@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
>
>
>
> Dear PCE WG
>
>
>
> The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we
> want to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are
> traditionally provided by the routing and signalling protocols.
>
>
>
> Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed
> path computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission,
> and added path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.
> This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been
> performed by the network management plane.
>
>
>
> We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP
> =E2=80=93 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signall=
ing.
> There were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this
> week.
>
> =C2=B7        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path insta=
ntiation
> capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching ea=
ch
> hop along the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-=
TE.
>
> =C2=B7        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link stat=
e and
> TE information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This
> replaces the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS=
.
>
> =C2=B7        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level
> configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as
> SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already
> designed into the IGPs.
>
>
>
> These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged
> SDN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which
> there is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the
> current network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their
> roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEA=
S
> working group.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction tha=
t
> we want to take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I
> see it.
>
> 1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about
> whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively
> debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the
> =E2=80=9Cthin end of the wedge=E2=80=9D.  If we start down this path then=
 we are accepting
> that PCEP will replace the functions available in the traditional control
> plane.  We need to test whether there is a consensus in the working group
> to move in that direction.
>
> 2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this
> type of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), =
we
> can of course extend the charter.
>
>
>
> This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the
> mailing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended i=
n
> this direction, and how far we should go.
>
>
>
> I am hoping to get more than just =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=
=80=9D answers to this question
> (although that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear
> justifications for or against.  Such as, which production networks would
> run PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirabl=
e
> to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control
> plane?  What harm could this do?  What would be the operational problems
> associated with adding these functions to PCEP?
>
>
>
> Many thanks
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>
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>
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">+1,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>PCEP is rather efficient at d=
ealing with paths and constraints.=C2=A0</div><div>PCE-CC , as someone ment=
ioned earlier, can be seen as 1-hop LSPs, there could be minimum protocol e=
xtensions. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>PCEP-LS is redoing links-state f=
looding over PCEP, using the same elements as existing protocols. This soun=
ds OK as an experiment but the operational or scale advantages to it seems =
very limited.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think we should ov=
erload PCEP to carry IGP information (nor device configuration)=C2=A0</div>=
<div><br></div><div>My 2 cents</div><div>Cyril</div><div><br></div></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 24 July 2017 at =
08:02,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-2585124335000265360WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Hi,<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">As soon as we started =
with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN controller who takes de=
cision and programs the network.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">So as many already men=
tioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><br>
IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it=E2=80=99s just bring a ne=
w kind of LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller impl=
ementing hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it n=
eeds to program nodes in the right order
 to prevent transient loops=E2=80=A6<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">The question is more w=
hat is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and do we want to create a pr=
otocol that does everything , including coffee
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1f497d">J</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:#1f497d"> ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">We already have plenty=
 of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has strength and weaknesses=
 and I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need to mimic all features in all protoco=
ls. What is the gain here ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">The best approach may =
be to use strength of protocols and use them for what they are good for:<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Example:<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">IGP has good flooding =
capability with =E2=80=9Climited scale=E2=80=9D: interesting when all recei=
vers need the same information<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">BGP has good flooding =
capability with large scale and ability to target specific groups (using ro=
ute targets/communities) : interesting when groups of receivers need the sa=
me information<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Netconf more generic a=
nd point to point<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=E2=80=A6<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">IMO: <u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">do we need PCEP-LS ? =
=3D&gt; This can be discussed, we already have two protocols to exchange th=
e topology=E2=80=A6
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">do we need to add conf=
iguration capabilities in PCEP =3D&gt; not sure, we have Netconf for that.<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Why not limiting PCEP =
to path programming and path policies (traffic steering on path=E2=80=A6) ?=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Brgds,<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pce [mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pce-bounces@i=
etf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pce@ietf.org</=
a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pce-cha=
irs@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Dear PCE WG<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The purpose of this email is to=
 initiate a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to =
replace the functions that are traditionally provided by the routing and si=
gnalling protocols.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Originally, PCEP was designed w=
ith the goal of providing a distributed path computation service.=C2=A0 In =
recent years we have extended that mission, and added path modification and=
 path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.=C2=A0
 This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been per=
formed by the network management plane.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We are now starting to discuss =
proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP =E2=80=93 capabilities that are =
traditionally part of routing and signalling.=C2=A0 There were three exampl=
es of this in the PCE working group meeting this
 week.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-2585124335000265360MsoListParagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Symbol">=C2=B7</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-=
size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99=
s path instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to=
-end by touching each hop along the path.=C2=A0 This replaces the function =
already provided by RSVP-TE.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-2585124335000265360MsoListParagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Symbol">=C2=B7</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-=
size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to all=
ow link state and TE information to be communicated from the network to the=
 PCE.=C2=A0 This replaces the link state flooding function provided by the =
IGPs, or BGP-LS.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-2585124335000265360MsoListParagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Symbol">=C2=B7</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-=
size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow dev=
ice-level configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE,=
 such as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.=C2=A0 Again, this replaces functions that =
are already designed into the IGPs.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">These proposals are taking PCEP=
 in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.=C2=A0 With these p=
roposals, one can envision a network in which there is no traditional contr=
ol plane.=C2=A0 PCEP is used to communicate the
 current network state and to program flows.=C2=A0 These proposals have the=
ir roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TE=
AS working group.=C2=A0 TEAS is very much assuming that this is the directi=
on that we want to take PCEP in.=C2=A0 However,
 there are two procedural issues, as I see it.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-2585124335000265360MsoListParagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">1.=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We have not had an explicit discussion in the P=
CE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.=C2=A0 We have h=
ad a few lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases re=
present the =E2=80=9Cthin end of the wedge=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 If
 we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the f=
unctions available in the traditional control plane.=C2=A0 We need to test =
whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-2585124335000265360MsoListParagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">2.=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We do not currently have a charter that allows =
us to add this type of capability to PCEP.=C2=A0 Depending on the outcome o=
f discussion (1), we can of course extend the charter.<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">This email is to initiate the d=
iscussion (1).=C2=A0 So, please reply to the mailing list and share your th=
oughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction, and how far we=
 should go.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I am hoping to get more than ju=
st =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D answers to this question (=
although that would be better than no answer).=C2=A0 I would like to hear j=
ustifications for or against.=C2=A0 Such as, which production networks woul=
d run
 PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?=C2=A0 Why is it not desirabl=
e to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plan=
e?=C2=A0 What harm could this do?=C2=A0 What would be the operational probl=
ems associated with adding these functions to PCEP?<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Many thanks<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Jon<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>=
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_

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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
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From nobody Tue Jul 25 13:37:40 2017
Return-Path: <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 13:37:33 -0700
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>, Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
CC: "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <9C4FE7B3-155E-4BAE-B94C-3D84B3EFA42F@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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LS distribution has a completely different set of characteristics, compared=
 to TED distribution, calling all of that PCEP-LS is incorrect.

Back to my mike comments =E2=80=93 while TED distribution could be done with PCEP=
, LS would be rather problematic.

=20

Those of us who built first BGP-LS implementations would remember all the i=
ssues and instability.

Care should be taken, when instability in one domain would affect another (=
PCE) domain, especially inter-protocol interactions (think IGP->PCEP)

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: Pce <pce-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/=
Stuttgart)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 10:37
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <p=
ce@ietf.org>
Cc: "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

=20

PCEP-LS looks to me like an experiment.

=20

For IP, the value proposition of PCEP-LS compared to e.g. BGP-LS is unclear=
 to me.

=20

For optical nodes, I think an NMS or controller can deal with this without =
requiring PCEP-LS, e.g., using NETCONF.

=20

For communication between controllers, typical use cases I am aware of requ=
ire functions beyond the PCEP extensions listed below, so it is not obvious =
whether PCEP extensions would be sufficient.=20

=20

Do we really want to throw spaghettis to the wall?=20

=20

Michael

=20

=20

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 5:22 PM
To: pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

=20

Dear PCE WG

=20

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally =
provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

=20

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and ad=
ded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This has=
 added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed by =
the network management plane.

=20

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP =E2=
=80=93 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  Ther=
e were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

=C2=B7         The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path instantiation ca=
pability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each ho=
p along the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.

=C2=B7         The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and=
 TE information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replac=
es the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.

=C2=B7         The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configu=
ration to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, pr=
efix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed int=
o the IGPs.

=20

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which ther=
e is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the current =
network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in the=
 ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working group=
.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want to tak=
e PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

1.       We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether=
 we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates o=
n specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the =E2=80=9Cthin end of=
 the wedge=E2=80=9D.  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP w=
ill replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We ne=
ed to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that=
 direction.

2.       We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type=
 of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can =
of course extend the charter.

=20

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this =
direction, and how far we should go.

=20

I am hoping to get more than just =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D answers to this que=
stion (although that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear =
justifications for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run=
 PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to s=
olve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  Wha=
t harm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated wit=
h adding these functions to PCEP?

=20

Many thanks

Jon

=20

_______________________________________________ Pce mailing list Pce@ietf.o=
rg https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce=20


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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954=
F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0p=
t'>LS distribution has a completely different set of characteristics, compar=
ed to TED distribution, calling all of that PCEP-LS is incorrect.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Back to my mike=
 comments =E2=80=93 while TED distribution could be done with PCEP, LS would be ra=
ther problematic.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:12.0pt'>Those of us who built first BGP-LS implementations would reme=
mber all the issues and instability.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Care should be taken, when instability in on=
e domain would affect another (PCE) domain, especially inter-protocol intera=
ctions (think IGP-&gt;PCEP)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</span><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none=
;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Fro=
m: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Pce &lt;pce-bounces=
@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of &quot;Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart)&quot=
; &lt;michael.scharf@nokia.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at=
 10:37<br><b>To: </b>Jonathan Hardwick &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&=
gt;, &quot;pce@ietf.org&quot; &lt;pce@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&quot;pce-c=
hairs@ietf.org&quot; &lt;pce-chairs@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Pce=
] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>PCEP-LS looks to me like an experiment.<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>For IP, the value proposition of=
 PCEP-LS compared to e.g. BGP-LS is unclear to me.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'margin-left:.5in'>For optical nodes, I think an NMS or controller can de=
al with this without requiring PCEP-LS, e.g., using NETCONF.<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>For communication between controllers, typic=
al use cases I am aware of require functions beyond the PCEP extensions list=
ed below, so it is not obvious whether PCEP extensions would be sufficient. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Do we really want to throw s=
paghettis to the wall? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:=
.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Micha=
el<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><=
div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in=
 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> Pce [mail=
to:pce-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br><b>Sent:</=
b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 5:22 PM<br><b>To:</b> pce@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> =
pce-chairs@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller proto=
col?<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DE=
N-GB>Dear PCE WG</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:=
.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The purpose of this email is to initiate=
 a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to replace th=
e functions that are traditionally provided by the routing and signalling pr=
otocols.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><s=
pan lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-=
left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of p=
roviding a distributed path computation service.&nbsp; In recent years we ha=
ve extended that mission, and added path modification and path instantiation=
 capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp; This has added capabilities to PCEP that would =
traditionally have been performed by the network management plane.</span><o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nb=
sp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span l=
ang=3DEN-GB>We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities =
to PCEP =E2=80=93 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalli=
ng.&nbsp; There were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting=
 this week.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in=
;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span styl=
e=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0=
pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </spa=
n></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></span><span lang=3DEN-GB>The PCECC pr=
oposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path instantiation capability so that the PCE=
 can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; =
This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.</span><o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span sty=
le=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span =
dir=3DLTR></span><span lang=3DEN-GB>The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to =
allow link state and TE information to be communicated from the network to t=
he PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding function provided by the=
 IGPs, or BGP-LS.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left=
:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><spa=
n style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'fo=
nt:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></span><span lang=3DEN-GB>The PC=
ECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configuration to be commu=
nicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbs=
p; Again, this replaces functions that are already designed into the IGPs.</=
span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DE=
N-GB>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'=
><span lang=3DEN-GB>These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being =
a fully-fledged SDN protocol.&nbsp; With these proposals, one can envision a=
 network in which there is no traditional control plane.&nbsp; PCEP is used =
to communicate the current network state and to program flows.&nbsp; These p=
roposals have their roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopt=
ed within the TEAS working group.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assuming that this=
 is the direction that we want to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However, there are two=
 procedural issues, as I see it.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6'><![if !sup=
portLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times Ne=
w Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span><![endif]><span=
 dir=3DLTR></span><span lang=3DEN-GB>We have not had an explicit discussion in t=
he PCE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We hav=
e had a few lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases =
represent the =E2=80=9Cthin end of the wedge=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; If we start down this path =
then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the functions available in the =
traditional control plane.&nbsp; We need to test whether there is a consensu=
s in the working group to move in that direction.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1=
 lfo6'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'fon=
t:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></spa=
n><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></span><span lang=3DEN-GB>We do not currently have a=
 charter that allows us to add this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Depend=
ing on the outcome of discussion (1), we can of course extend the charter.</=
span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DE=
N-GB>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'=
><span lang=3DEN-GB>This email is to initiate the discussion (1).&nbsp; So, pl=
ease reply to the mailing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP shoul=
d be extended in this direction, and how far we should go.</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-G=
B>I am hoping to get more than just =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D answers to this qu=
estion (although that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I would like to=
 hear justifications for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which production network=
s would run PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?&nbsp; Why is it no=
t desirable to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional con=
trol plane?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What would be the operation=
al problems associated with adding these functions to PCEP?</span><o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-=
GB>Many thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5=
in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Jon</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'marg=
in-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>___________________________________________=
____ Pce mailing list Pce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce=
 <o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>

--B_3583834654_837074151--



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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 13:38:17 -0700
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Cyril Margaria <cyril.margaria@gmail.com>, LITKOWSKI Stephane DTF/DERX <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
CC: "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <E7CAADDF-2CE8-484F-BB23-A41A3D8EA5E4@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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++1

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: Pce <pce-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Cyril Margaria <cyril.margari=
a@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 12:25
To: LITKOWSKI Stephane DTF/DERX <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
Cc: "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.o=
rg>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

=20

+1,=20

=20

PCEP is rather efficient at dealing with paths and constraints.=20

PCE-CC , as someone mentioned earlier, can be seen as 1-hop LSPs, there cou=
ld be minimum protocol extensions. =20

=20

PCEP-LS is redoing links-state flooding over PCEP, using the same elements =
as existing protocols. This sounds OK as an experiment but the operational o=
r scale advantages to it seems very limited.=20

=20

I don't think we should overload PCEP to carry IGP information (nor device =
configuration)=20

=20

My 2 cents

Cyril

=20

=20

On 24 July 2017 at 08:02, <stephane.litkowski@orange.com> wrote:

Hi,

=20

As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an SDN c=
ontroller who takes decision and programs the network.

So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.


IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it=E2=80=99s just bring a new kind=
 of LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller implementin=
g hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence as it needs to =
program nodes in the right order to prevent transient loops=E2=80=A6

=20

The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and do =
we want to create a protocol that does everything , including coffee J ?

We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol has s=
trength and weaknesses and I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need to mimic all features=
 in all protocols. What is the gain here ?

The best approach may be to use strength of protocols and use them for what=
 they are good for:

Example:

IGP has good flooding capability with =E2=80=9Climited scale=E2=80=9D: interesting when=
 all receivers need the same information

BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and ability to target spe=
cific groups (using route targets/communities) : interesting when groups of =
receivers need the same information

Netconf more generic and point to point

=E2=80=A6

=20

=20

IMO:=20

do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D> This can be discussed, we already have two protocol=
s to exchange the topology=E2=80=A6=20

do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =3D> not sure, we have N=
etconf for that.

Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic steeri=
ng on path=E2=80=A6) ?

=20

Brgds,

=20

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22
To: pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

=20

Dear PCE WG

=20

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want=
 to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally =
provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

=20

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path=
 computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and ad=
ded path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This has=
 added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed by =
the network management plane.

=20

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP =E2=
=80=93 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.  Ther=
e were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.

=C2=B7        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path instantiation cap=
ability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop=
 along the path.  This replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.

=C2=B7        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link state and =
TE information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This replace=
s the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.

=C2=B7        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level configur=
ation to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, pre=
fix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already designed into=
 the IGPs.

=20

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged S=
DN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which ther=
e is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the current =
network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots in the=
 ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working group=
.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want to tak=
e PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.

1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whether =
we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates on=
 specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the =E2=80=9Cthin end of =
the wedge=E2=80=9D.  If we start down this path then we are accepting that PCEP wi=
ll replace the functions available in the traditional control plane.  We nee=
d to test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that =
direction.

2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this type =
of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can o=
f course extend the charter.

=20

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the mail=
ing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this =
direction, and how far we should go.

=20

I am hoping to get more than just =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D answers to this que=
stion (although that would be better than no answer).  I would like to hear =
justifications for or against.  Such as, which production networks would run=
 PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to s=
olve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  Wha=
t harm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated wit=
h adding these functions to PCEP?

=20

Many thanks

Jon

=20
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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=20
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ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce

=20

_______________________________________________ Pce mailing list Pce@ietf.o=
rg https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce=20


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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><di=
v class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>++1<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;=
color:black'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0=
pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b=
><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Pce &lt;pce-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Cy=
ril Margaria &lt;cyril.margaria@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July =
25, 2017 at 12:25<br><b>To: </b>LITKOWSKI Stephane DTF/DERX &lt;stephane.lit=
kowski@orange.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&quot;pce@ietf.org&quot; &lt;pce@ietf.or=
g&gt;, &quot;pce-chairs@ietf.org&quot; &lt;pce-chairs@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Sub=
ject: </b>Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>+1,&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>PCEP is rather efficien=
t at dealing with paths and constraints.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>PCE-CC , as someone mentioned earlie=
r, can be seen as 1-hop LSPs, there could be minimum protocol extensions. &n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>PC=
EP-LS is redoing links-state flooding over PCEP, using the same elements as =
existing protocols. This sounds OK as an experiment but the operational or s=
cale advantages to it seems very limited.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>I don't think we should overload PC=
EP to carry IGP information (nor device configuration)&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>My 2 cents<o:p></o:p><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Cyril<o:p></o:p></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>On 24 July 2017 at =
08:02, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">st=
ephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'=
border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin=
-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin=
-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'colo=
r:#1F497D'>Hi,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top=
-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1=
F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-=
alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F=
497D'>As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an =
SDN controller who takes decision and programs the network.</span><o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>So as many already menti=
oned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in=
'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><br>IMO, PCECC does not change significantly P=
CEP, it=E2=80=99s just bring a new kind of LSP style for this hop by hop path prog=
ramming. A controller implementing hop by hop path programming will require =
more intelligence as it needs to program nodes in the right order to prevent=
 transient loops=E2=80=A6</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margi=
n-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'col=
or:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin=
-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'colo=
r:#1F497D'>The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP in term of S=
BI and do we want to create a protocol that does everything , including coff=
ee </span><span style=3D'font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span st=
yle=3D'color:#1F497D'> ?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-ma=
rgin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'=
color:#1F497D'>We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each =
protocol has strength and weaknesses and I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need to mimi=
c all features in all protocols. What is the gain here ?</span><o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:au=
to;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The best approach may be to=
 use strength of protocols and use them for what they are good for:</span><o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Example:</span><=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-b=
ottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>IGP has good fl=
ooding capability with =E2=80=9Climited scale=E2=80=9D: interesting when all receivers n=
eed the same information</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-=
margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'>BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and abili=
ty to target specific groups (using route targets/communities) : interesting=
 when groups of receivers need the same information</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;ma=
rgin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Netconf more generic and point t=
o point</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:au=
to;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=
=E2=80=A6</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;m=
so-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbs=
p;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;ms=
o-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso=
-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>IMO: <=
/span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>do we ne=
ed PCEP-LS ? =3D&gt; This can be discussed, we already have two protocols to e=
xchange the topology=E2=80=A6 </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-=
margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'>do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =3D&gt; =
not sure, we have Netconf for that.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>=
<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and pa=
th policies (traffic steering on path=E2=80=A6) ?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-lef=
t:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left=
:.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Brgds,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:=
.5in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div styl=
e=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;ma=
rgin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-s=
erif'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",san=
s-serif'> Pce [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br><b>Sent:<=
/b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">pce@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Pce] P=
CEP as an SDN controller protocol?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-=
left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt=
:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Dear PCE=
 WG</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;m=
so-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The purpose of this email i=
s to initiate a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it =
to replace the functions that are traditionally provided by the routing and =
signalling protocols.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-mar=
gin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-=
GB>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Originall=
y, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed path computati=
on service.&nbsp; In recent years we have extended that mission, and added p=
ath modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp; This has=
 added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performed by =
the network management plane.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>W=
e are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP =E2=80=93=
 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalling.&nbsp; T=
here were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this week.=
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm-2585124335000265360msolistparagraph style=3D'=
margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><span=
 lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang=3DEN-GB>The PCECC pro=
posal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path instantiation capability so that the PCE =
can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; T=
his replaces the function already provided by RSVP-TE.</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3Dm-2585124335000265360msolistparagraph style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><spa=
n lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'fon=
t-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang=3DEN-GB>The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends=
 PCEP to allow link state and TE information to be communicated from the net=
work to the PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding function provid=
ed by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm-25851243350002653=
60msolistparagraph style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-fam=
ily:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Ti=
mes New Roman",serif'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><spa=
n lang=3DEN-GB>The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level config=
uration to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs, p=
refix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again, this replaces functions that are already design=
ed into the IGPs.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto=
;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>These proposa=
ls are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.&n=
bsp; With these proposals, one can envision a network in which there is no t=
raditional control plane.&nbsp; PCEP is used to communicate the current netw=
ork state and to program flows.&nbsp; These proposals have their roots in th=
e ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working grou=
p.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want =
to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it=
.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm-2585124335000265360msolistparagraph style=3D=
'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>1.</span><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-si=
ze:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 </span><span lang=3DEN-GB>We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE W=
G about whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have had a =
few lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represen=
t the =E2=80=9Cthin end of the wedge=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; If we start down this path then we =
are accepting that PCEP will replace the functions available in the traditio=
nal control plane.&nbsp; We need to test whether there is a consensus in the=
 working group to move in that direction.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm-25=
85124335000265360msolistparagraph style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>=
2.</span><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roma=
n",serif'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang=3DEN-GB>We do not c=
urrently have a charter that allows us to add this type of capability to PCE=
P.&nbsp; Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can of course extend=
 the charter.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-=
alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso=
-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>This email is to =
initiate the discussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the mailing list and =
share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction, an=
d how far we should go.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-m=
argin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DE=
N-GB>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-al=
t:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>I am ho=
ping to get more than just =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D answers to this question (a=
lthough that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I would like to hear jus=
tifications for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which production networks would r=
un PCEP in place of a traditional control plane?&nbsp; Why is it not desirab=
le to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional control plan=
e?&nbsp; What harm could this do?&nbsp; What would be the operational proble=
ms associated with adding these functions to PCEP?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mar=
gin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5i=
n'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Many thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><spa=
n lang=3DEN-GB>Jon</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-t=
op-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&n=
bsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><pre style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>______________=
____________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:.5in=
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'margin-left:.5in'>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete a=
ltere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:.=
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ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12=
.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>_______________________________________________<b=
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ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=3D=
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From: Leeyoung <leeyoung@huawei.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "'Daniele Ceccarelli'" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, "'Julien Meuric'" <julien.meuric@orange.com>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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From: Mahendra Singh Negi <mahendrasingh@huawei.com>
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, adrian <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "'Julien Meuric'" <julien.meuric@orange.com>, pce <pce@ietf.org>, Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.dhody@huawei.com>
CC: draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type <draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing <draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org>, Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.dhody@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?
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Very much OK with that.
Thanks a lot.

Regards,
Mahendra (Huawei Tech India Pvt. Ltd.)
From:Jonathan Hardwick
To:Mahendra Singh Negi,adrian,'Julien Meuric',pce,Dhruv Dhody,
Cc:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type,draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing,
Date:2017-07-25 20:36:04
Subject:RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-ie=
tf-pce-lsp-setup-type?

Mahendra, many thanks for your input.

PCE WG, we have a backwards compatible proposal on the table which, apart f=
rom making a special case of SR-PCE-CAPABILITY, seems reasonably clean (or,=
 at least, not seriously broken).  Shall we go forwards with that?

Best regards
Jon


From: Mahendra Singh Negi [mailto:mahendrasingh@huawei.com]
Sent: 25 July 2017 13:12
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Julien Meuric' <julien.meuric@orange.com>; Jonath=
an Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; pce@ietf.org; Dhruv Dhody <=
dhruv.dhody@huawei.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@=
ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-i=
etf-pce-lsp-setup-type?

Dear All,

This is to answer on implantation row, apologies for the delayed response, =
 YES we do have our PCEP solutions deployed in mixed SR/RSVP-TE environment=
s.
I am afraid any non-backward compatible changes will break our solution. So=
 hope we choose a backward compatible solution.

Regards,
Mahendra (Huawei Tech India Pvt Ltd)

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
Sent: 25 July 2017 16:26
To: 'Julien Meuric'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; pce@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-=
type@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-p=
ce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-i=
etf-pce-lsp-setup-type?

Sighing slightly:-)

If, as may be the case, there is a demand to make this work either as curre=
ntly specified or to be seamlessly interoperable with what is already speci=
fied then so be it. Let's make that as a conscious decision.

However, I think that using 7120 as an "excuse" is a bad idea. What 7120 is=
 saying is that the allocated code point must show some stability in meanin=
g from the point of early allocation on to RFC (just as it would need to if=
 the RFC was revised). But that is not saying that, upon noticing that we a=
re a herd of lemmings rushing towards the cliff we must say "We have always=
 rushed towards the cliff. Our parents rushed towards the cliff. We must co=
ntinue even if it means we plunge to our deaths."

Of course, nothing so dramatic, but...

If the current specification works well - stay with it.
If the current specification works but is clumsy - tweak it in a backward c=
ompatible way
If the current specification is broken in a minor way - fix it in a backwar=
d compatible way
If the current specification is more seriously broken - burn a new code poi=
nt to fix it

In my earlier emails I was only speculating on "how I would have done this =
if starting from scratch." Obviously (?) I should have participated in WG d=
iscussions much earlier in the cycle, and as a result my opinion really onl=
y counts if either:
- the current specification is more seriously broken
or
- there is no WG desire to stick close to the current specification.

Clearly, although people who implement against I-Ds are doing so at their o=
wn risk, we should not unnecessarily burden early implementations with chan=
ges just for the sake of change. There is a sliding scale of "better ways t=
o do things" that incorporates "it's a bit messy," "it will be easier to ma=
intain and extend," all the way up to "it's broken." The WG will want to wo=
rk out where we are on that scale and weigh it against the cost and inconve=
nience of change. Shipping in software may be one measure. Deployed and in =
use is another measure.

Cheers,
Adrian

From: Julien Meuric [mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com]
Sent: 25 July 2017 09:31
To: Jonathan Hardwick; adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; pce=
@ietf.org<mailto:pce@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-=
type@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-p=
ce-segment-routing@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to draft-i=
etf-pce-lsp-setup-type?

Hi,

I agree that capability bitmap with optional capability-specific sub-TLVs w=
ould be the way to go from scratch. However the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY already h=
as an early allocated codepoint, and RFC 7120 says that "if there is a chan=
ge, implementations based on the earlier and later specifications must be s=
eamlessly interoperable."
As a result, it seems to me that adding this new format may require that th=
e I-D keeps documenting an optional SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV for legacy reason=
s.

Cheers,

Julien
Jul. 25, 2017 - Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com<mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@m=
etaswitch.com>:
I agree that allowing optional sub-TLVs is a good thing.  However, this str=
ongly suggests that SR-PCE-CAPABILITY should become a sub-TLV, which is a n=
on-backwards compatible change.  So, we are back to my original question.

Implementers =96 any views?

Cheers
Jon


From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
Sent: 24 July 2017 19:51

Yes to that, Jon. But what happens when the next thing comes along?

Since sub-TLVs can be present, I would suggest to use a Setup-Type TLV with=
 a bit map as I previously described in my email, and add optional sub-TLVs=
 dependent on the bits that are set.

Isn't that the best of both worlds?

Adrian

From: Jonathan Hardwick [mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com]
Sent: 24 July 2017 09:15

Adrian,

The SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also conta=
ins information about the maximum SID depth.  However, I like your idea and=
 I think that it gives us a better way to do this without breaking backward=
s compatibility with existing SR implementations.

Suppose we introduce a setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, =
and assign a bit to each setup type.
If the TLV is absent, then RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is absent and the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is present, then RSVP-TE=
 and SR are supported.  This retains backwards compatibility with existing =
SR implementations.
If the TLV is present, then the bits indicate which setup types are support=
ed.

We would modify the LSP setup type draft to say that implementations suppor=
ting path setup types other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type TLV.

It=92s not exactly beautiful, but it=92s not as ugly as RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT=
.

Cheers
Jon


From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
Sent: 21 July 2017 19:55

Well, personally, if I was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each=
 bit flag!
I would have a Setup-Type TLV.
If that TLV is absent, RSVP-TE is supported.
If the TLV is present, each bit means that a different setup type is suppor=
ted.

That means...
Legacy nodes don't include the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE
Legacy nodes that receive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to=
 the Open (leaving a new node to re-Open for RSVP-TE only).
New nodes include the TLV and so indicate explicitly what they support.

I know it is late for that type of change, so how we proceed might depend o=
n what implementations have done already.

Adrian

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: 21 July 2017 16:07

Dear PCE-ers

I don=92t want to distract from the SDN topic too much, but we have an impo=
rtant decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type.

The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no way for a PCEP speaker=
 to indicate that it can=92t (or won=92t) support RSVP-TE as a path setup t=
ype.  It is entirely plausible that a node might not support RSVP-TE, or el=
se have it disabled, for example in an SR-only network.

We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should be changed to allow a sp=
eaker to declare that they do or don=92t have support for RSVP-TE paths.  T=
here are two proposals.


1.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include =
a (new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.  If this TLV if missin=
g, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) then it=
 means that the speaker does not support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.

2.      Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include =
a (new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON=92T suppor=
t RSVP-TE.  If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do support=
 RSVP-TE.

The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards compatible.  Any existing =
SR implementation which also supports RSVP will not currently send this new=
 capability.  So, if we make change (1) then forwards-level implementations=
 will incorrectly conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not=
 support RSVP-TE.

The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my opinion we should only d=
o something ugly with a new protocol extension if we simply can=92t avoid d=
oing it.

And so the question: are there any *deployments* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP=
-TE environment that would be broken if we made change (1)?

Thanks
Jon



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<div>Very much OK with that.<br>
Thanks a lot.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Mahendra (Huawei Tech India Pvt. Ltd.)</div>
<div></div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>From:</b>Jonathan Hardwick</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>To:</b>Mahendra Singh Negi,adrian,'J=
ulien Meuric',pce,Dhruv Dhody,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Cc:</b>draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type=
,draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Date:</b>2017-07-25 20:36:04</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Subject:</b>RE: [Pce] Can we make a =
non-backwards compatible change to draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Mahendra, many thanks =
for your input.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">PCE WG, we have a back=
wards compatible proposal on the table which, apart from making a special c=
ase of SR-PCE-CAPABILITY, seems reasonably clean (or, at least, not serious=
ly broken).&nbsp; Shall we go forwards with
 that?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Best regards</span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jon</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:windowtext">F=
rom:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:windowtext"> Mahendra Si=
ngh Negi [mailto:mahendrasingh@huawei.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2017 13:12<br>
<b>To:</b> adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Julien Meuric' &lt;julien.meuric@orange.co=
m&gt;; Jonathan Hardwick &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;; pce@ietf=
.org; Dhruv Dhody &lt;dhruv.dhody@huawei.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-segment-r=
outing@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt; font=
-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; background:#F7F7F7">Dear All,</span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt; font=
-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; background:#F7F7F7">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt; font=
-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; background:#F7F7F7">This is to answer=
 on implantation row, apologies for the delayed response, &nbsp;YES we do h=
ave our PCEP solutions deployed in mixed SR/RSVP-TE environments.</span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt; font=
-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; background:#F7F7F7">I am afraid any n=
on-backward compatible changes will break our solution. So hope we choose a=
 backward compatible solution.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt; font=
-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; background:#F7F7F7">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt; font=
-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; background:#F7F7F7">Regards,</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt; font=
-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; background:#F7F7F7">Mahendra (Huawei =
Tech India Pvt Ltd)</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif; color:windowtext">From:</span></b=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&q=
uot;,sans-serif; color:windowtext"> Pce [</span><a href=3D"mailto:pce-bounc=
es@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&q=
uot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans=
-serif; color:windowtext">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Adrian Farrel<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2017 16:26<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Julien Meuric'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; </span><a href=3D"mailto:p=
ce@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&q=
uot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">pce@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif; color:w=
indowtext"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&q=
uot;,sans-serif">draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org</span></a><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-=
serif; color:windowtext">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-=
serif">draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif; co=
lor:windowtext"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Sighing slightly:-)</s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If, as may be the case=
, there is a demand to make this work either as currently specified or to b=
e seamlessly interoperable with what is already specified then so be it. Le=
t's make that as a conscious decision.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">However, I think that =
using 7120 as an &quot;excuse&quot; is a bad idea. What 7120 is saying is t=
hat the allocated code point must show some stability in meaning from the p=
oint of early allocation on to RFC (just as it
 would need to if the RFC was revised). But that is not saying that, upon n=
oticing that we are a herd of lemmings rushing towards the cliff we must sa=
y &quot;We have always rushed towards the cliff. Our parents rushed towards=
 the cliff. We must continue even if
 it means we plunge to our deaths.&quot;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Of course, nothing so =
dramatic, but...</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the current specifi=
cation works well - stay with it.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the current specifi=
cation works but is clumsy - tweak it in a backward compatible way</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the current specifi=
cation is broken in a minor way - fix it in a backward compatible way</span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the current specifi=
cation is more seriously broken - burn a new code point to fix it</span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In my earlier emails I=
 was only speculating on &quot;how I would have done this if starting from =
scratch.&quot; Obviously (?) I should have participated in WG discussions m=
uch earlier in the cycle, and as a result my opinion
 really only counts if either:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- the current specific=
ation is more seriously broken</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">or</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- there is no WG desir=
e to stick close to the current specification.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Clearly, although peop=
le who implement against I-Ds are doing so at their own risk, we should not=
 unnecessarily burden early implementations with changes just for the sake =
of change. There is a sliding scale
 of &quot;better ways to do things&quot; that incorporates &quot;it's a bit=
 messy,&quot; &quot;it will be easier to maintain and extend,&quot; all the=
 way up to &quot;it's broken.&quot; The WG will want to work out where we a=
re on that scale and weigh it against the cost and inconvenience of change.
 Shipping in software may be one measure. Deployed and in use is another me=
asure.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0cm 0cm 0c=
m 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif; color:windowtext">From:</span></b=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&q=
uot;,sans-serif; color:windowtext"> Julien Meuric [</span><a href=3D"mailto=
:julien.meuric@orange.com"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; =
font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com<=
/span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif; color:windowtext">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2017 09:31<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Hardwick; </span><a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&q=
uot;,sans-serif">adrian@olddog.co.uk</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif; color:wind=
owtext">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">pce@ietf.org</span><=
/a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,sans-serif; color:windowtext"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&q=
uot;,sans-serif">draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type@ietf.org</span></a><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-=
serif; color:windowtext">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-=
serif">draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif; co=
lor:windowtext"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pce] Can we make a non-backwards compatible change to =
draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi,<br>
<br>
I agree that capability bitmap with optional capability-specific sub-TLVs w=
ould be the way to go from scratch. However the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY already h=
as an early allocated codepoint, and RFC 7120 says that &quot;if there is a=
 change, implementations based on the
 earlier and later specifications must be seamlessly interoperable.&quot;<b=
r>
As a result, it seems to me that adding this new format may require that th=
e I-D keeps documenting an optional SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV for legacy reason=
s.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Julien</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jul. 25, 2017 - <a href=3D"mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@=
metaswitch.com">
Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com</a>:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I agree that allowing =
optional sub-TLVs is a good thing.&nbsp; However, this strongly suggests th=
at SR-PCE-CAPABILITY should become a sub-TLV, which is a non-backwards comp=
atible change.&nbsp; So, we are back to my original
 question.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Implementers =96 any v=
iews?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jon</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Adrian Farrel [</span><a href=3D"m=
ailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk<=
/span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24 July 2017 19:51</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Yes to that, Jon. But =
what happens when the next thing comes along?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Since sub-TLVs can be =
present, I would suggest to use a Setup-Type TLV with a bit map as I previo=
usly described in my email, and add optional sub-TLVs dependent on the bits=
 that are set.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Isn't that the best of=
 both worlds?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0cm 0cm 0c=
m 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">Fr=
om:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Jonathan Hardwick [</span><a href=3D"mailto:=
Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@=
metaswitch.com</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24 July 2017 09:15</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The SR-PCE-CAPABILITY =
TLV is more than just a Boolean value - it also contains information about =
the maximum SID depth.&nbsp; However, I like your idea and I think that it =
gives us a better way to do this without
 breaking backwards compatibility with existing SR implementations.</span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Suppose we introduce a=
 setup-type TLV into the OPEN object as you propose, and assign a bit to ea=
ch setup type.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is absent, =
then RSVP-TE is supported.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is absent a=
nd the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is present, then RSVP-TE and SR are supported.=
&nbsp; This retains backwards compatibility with existing SR implementation=
s.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is present,=
 then the bits indicate which setup types are supported.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">We would modify the LS=
P setup type draft to say that implementations supporting path setup types =
other than RSVP-TE SHOULD include the setup-type TLV.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">It=92s not exactly bea=
utiful, but it=92s not as ugly as RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jon</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Adrian Farrel [</span><a href=3D"m=
ailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk<=
/span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 19:55</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Well, personally, if I=
 was designing this, I would not a whole TLV for each bit flag!</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I would have a Setup-T=
ype TLV.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If that TLV is absent,=
 RSVP-TE is supported.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If the TLV is present,=
 each bit means that a different setup type is supported.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That means...</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Legacy nodes don't inc=
lude the TLV and are assumed to support RSVP-TE</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Legacy nodes that rece=
ive the TLV don't know what it means and so object to the Open (leaving a n=
ew node to re-Open for RSVP-TE only).</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">New nodes include the =
TLV and so indicate explicitly what they support.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I know it is late for =
that type of change, so how we proceed might depend on what implementations=
 have done already.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Adrian</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0cm 0cm 0c=
m 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">Fr=
om:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Pce [</span><a href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ie=
tf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-seri=
f">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 July 2017 16:07</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear PCE-ers</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don=92t want to distract from the SDN topic too mu=
ch, but we have an important decision to make about draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setu=
p-type.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The shepherd review raised an issue that there is no=
 way for a PCEP speaker to indicate that it can=92t (or won=92t) support RS=
VP-TE as a path setup type.&nbsp; It is entirely plausible that a node migh=
t not support RSVP-TE, or else have it disabled,
 for example in an SR-only network.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We think that draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type should b=
e changed to allow a speaker to declare that they do or don=92t have suppor=
t for RSVP-TE paths.&nbsp; There are two proposals.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt">1.<span style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt; font-family:&quot;Times New Roman ,serif&quot;,serif">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a=
 (new) RSVP-TE-CAPABILITY TLV in their OPEN object.&nbsp; If this TLV if mi=
ssing, but some other CAPABILITY TLV is present (such as SR-CAPABILITY) the=
n it means that the speaker does not
 support RSVP-TE as a path setup type.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt">2.<span style=
=3D"font-size:7.0pt; font-family:&quot;Times New Roman ,serif&quot;,serif">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Change draft-ietf-pce-lsp-setup-type so that speakers MUST include a=
 (new) RSVP-TE-NON-SUPPORT TLV in their OPEN object if they DON=92T support=
 RSVP-TE.&nbsp; If this TLV is omitted, it will be assumed that they do sup=
port RSVP-TE.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The problem with (1) is that it is not backwards com=
patible.&nbsp; Any existing SR implementation which also supports RSVP will=
 not currently send this new capability.&nbsp; So, if we make change (1) th=
en forwards-level implementations will incorrectly
 conclude that such backwards-level implementations do not support RSVP-TE.=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The problem with (2) is that it is ugly, and in my o=
pinion we should only do something ugly with a new protocol extension if we=
 simply can=92t avoid doing it.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And so the question: are there any *<b>deployments</=
b>* of PCEP in a mixed SR/RSVP-TE environment that would be broken if we ma=
de change (1)?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jon</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Aijun Wang" <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn>
To: "'Jeff Tantsura'" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, "'Igor Bryskin'" <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>, <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "'Jonathan Hardwick'" <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, <pce@ietf.org>
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I agree with Jeff.=20

The communication between distributed device2device is different from =
device2controller.  The latter should be complementary of the former, =
not replace them.

We operator just want to use such SBI protocol to enhance the =
coordination among the underlying devices, especially for the end-to-end =
optimal path programming.=20

If the PCEP protocol can be extended to transfer some key parameters, we =
can easily deploy one unified solution to cover several different =
scenario, regardless they are in MPLS, Native IPv4, or IPv6 network. =
This can certainly relieve our burden to cope with the different =
solutions for different scenarios. =20

We have also make the scenario/requirements presentation at Prague,  If =
you are interesting, please refer the material at CCDR Presentation =
Material =
<https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-teas-sessa-13-ccdr-=
centrally-control-dynamic-routing-scenario-simulation-and-suggestion-01.p=
df> .

We have also compared the different approach protocols to fulfill them, =
and think PCEP may be the most candidate protocol to accomplish them.

=20

Best Regards.

=20

Aijun Wang

Network R&D and Operation Support Department

China Telecom Corporation Limited Beijing Research Institute,Beijing, =
China.

=20

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] =
=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Jeff Tantsura
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2017=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8825=E6=97=A5 =
6:12
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Igor Bryskin; =
stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: pce-chairs@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

=20

We all know =E2=80=93 every protocol has its strong and less strong =
sides, however the properties required for a distributed device2device =
communication are quite different from device2controller environment and =
should be evaluated as such.

There=E2=80=99s a long list of pros and cons for either environments =
(objective functions) as well operational preferences, domain knowledge, =
and such

=20

Most of us here are biased =E2=98=BA=20

To put it short =E2=80=93 I believe there=E2=80=99s enough people who =
are interested in working on PCEP to extend it, personally I see value =
in having PCEP next to any other SBI=E2=80=99s mentioned below, however =
what I don=E2=80=99t want, is to overload semantics of PCEP (aka BGP =
kitchen sink =E2=98=BA).

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: Pce <pce-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Igor Bryskin =
<Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, July 24, 2017 at 14:52
To: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, =
Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "pce@ietf.org" =
<pce@ietf.org>
Cc: "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

=20

Hi Stephanie,

=20

You said:

< Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic =
steering on path=E2=80=A6) ?

=20

But why not to use for these purposes RESTCONF or gRPC/protobuffs? Do =
you see value in using explicit model based SBIs vs implicit (TLV-) =
based protocols such as  PCE?

=20

Cheers,,

Igor

=20

=20

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
stephane.litkowski@orange.com
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 8:03 AM
To: Jonathan Hardwick; pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

=20

Hi,

=20

As soon as we started with the active stateful PCE, the PCE became an =
SDN controller who takes decision and programs the network.

So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is already done.


IMO, PCECC does not change significantly PCEP, it=E2=80=99s just bring a =
new kind of LSP style for this hop by hop path programming. A controller =
implementing hop by hop path programming will require more intelligence =
as it needs to program nodes in the right order to prevent transient =
loops=E2=80=A6

=20

The question is more what is the exact scope of PCEP in term of SBI and =
do we want to create a protocol that does everything , including coffee =
J ?

We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, Netconf. Each protocol =
has strength and weaknesses and I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need to =
mimic all features in all protocols. What is the gain here ?

The best approach may be to use strength of protocols and use them for =
what they are good for:

Example:

IGP has good flooding capability with =E2=80=9Climited scale=E2=80=9D: =
interesting when all receivers need the same information

BGP has good flooding capability with large scale and ability to target =
specific groups (using route targets/communities) : interesting when =
groups of receivers need the same information

Netconf more generic and point to point

=E2=80=A6

=20

=20

IMO:=20

do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D> This can be discussed, we already have two =
protocols to exchange the topology=E2=80=A6=20

do we need to add configuration capabilities in PCEP =3D> not sure, we =
have Netconf for that.

Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and path policies (traffic =
steering on path=E2=80=A6) ?

=20

Brgds,

=20

From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hardwick
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 17:22
To: pce@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?

=20

Dear PCE WG

=20

The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we =
want to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are =
traditionally provided by the routing and signalling protocols.

=20

Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed =
path computation service.  In recent years we have extended that =
mission, and added path modification and path instantiation capabilities =
to PCEP.  This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally =
have been performed by the network management plane.

=20

We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to =
PCEP =E2=80=93 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and =
signalling.  There were three examples of this in the PCE working group =
meeting this week.

=C2=B7        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path =
instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end =
by touching each hop along the path.  This replaces the function already =
provided by RSVP-TE.

=C2=B7        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link =
state and TE information to be communicated from the network to the PCE. =
 This replaces the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or =
BGP-LS.

=C2=B7        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level =
configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such =
as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are =
already designed into the IGPs.

=20

These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a =
fully-fledged SDN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a =
network in which there is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to =
communicate the current network state and to program flows.  These =
proposals have their roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are =
adopted within the TEAS working group.  TEAS is very much assuming that =
this is the direction that we want to take PCEP in.  However, there are =
two procedural issues, as I see it.

1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about =
whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few =
lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases =
represent the =E2=80=9Cthin end of the wedge=E2=80=9D.  If we start down =
this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the functions =
available in the traditional control plane.  We need to test whether =
there is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction.

2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this =
type of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), =
we can of course extend the charter.

=20

This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the =
mailing list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended =
in this direction, and how far we should go.

=20

I am hoping to get more than just =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D answers to this question (although that would be =
better than no answer).  I would like to hear justifications for or =
against.  Such as, which production networks would run PCEP in place of =
a traditional control plane?  Why is it not desirable to solve the =
problems in those networks with the traditional control plane?  What =
harm could this do?  What would be the operational problems associated =
with adding these functions to PCEP?

=20

Many thanks

Jon

=20

_________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
=20
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confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme =
ou falsifie. Merci.
=20
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged =
information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________ Pce mailing list =
Pce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce=20


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class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>I agree with Jeff. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>The communication between =
distributed device2device is different from device2controller.=C2=A0 The =
latter should be complementary of the former, not replace =
them.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>We operator just want to use =
such SBI protocol to enhance the coordination among the underlying =
devices, especially for the end-to-end optimal path programming. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>If the PCEP protocol can be =
extended to transfer some key parameters, we can easily deploy one =
unified solution to cover several different scenario, regardless they =
are in MPLS, Native IPv4, or IPv6 network. This can certainly relieve =
our burden to cope with the different solutions for different =
scenarios.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>We have also make =
the scenario/requirements presentation at Prague, =C2=A0If you are =
interesting, please refer the material at </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-teas-sessa-1=
3-ccdr-centrally-control-dynamic-routing-scenario-simulation-and-suggesti=
on-01.pdf">CCDR Presentation Material</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>We have also compared the =
different approach protocols to fulfill them, and think PCEP may be the =
most candidate protocol to accomplish them.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>Best =
Regards.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>Aijun =
Wang<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>Network R&amp;D =
and Operation Support Department<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'>China Telecom =
Corporation Limited Beijing Research Institute,Beijing, =
China.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div=
><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=
=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3DEN-US>:</span></span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93'> Pce =
[mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] </span><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93'>=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=
=A8 </span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93'>Jeff =
Tantsura<br></span><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93'>=E5=8F=91=E9=80=
=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4<span lang=3DEN-US>:</span></span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93'> =
2017</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93'>=E5=B9=B4<span =
lang=3DEN-US>7</span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3DEN-US>25</span>=E6=97=A5<span =
lang=3DEN-US> 6:12<br></span><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span =
lang=3DEN-US>:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Igor Bryskin; =
stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Jonathan Hardwick; =
pce@ietf.org<br></span><b>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81<span =
lang=3DEN-US>:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> =
pce-chairs@ietf.org<br></span><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98<span =
lang=3DEN-US>:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN =
controller protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>We all =
know =E2=80=93 every protocol has its strong and less strong sides, =
however the properties required for a distributed device2device =
communication are quite different from device2controller environment and =
should be evaluated as such.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>There=E2=80=99s a long list of pros and cons =
for either environments (objective functions) as well operational =
preferences, domain knowledge, and such<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Most of =
us here are biased </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Apple Color =
Emoji"'>=E2=98=BA</span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>To put it short =E2=80=93 I believe =
there=E2=80=99s enough people who are interested in working on PCEP to =
extend it, personally I see value in having PCEP next to any other =
SBI=E2=80=99s mentioned below, however what I don=E2=80=99t want, is to =
overload semantics of PCEP (aka BGP kitchen sink </span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Apple Color =
Emoji"'>=E2=98=BA</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: =
</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Pce =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org">pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
on behalf of Igor Bryskin &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com">Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com</a>&gt;<b=
r><b>Date: </b>Monday, July 24, 2017 at 14:52<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a =
href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stephane.litkowski@orange.c=
om</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stephane.litkowski@orange.c=
om</a>&gt;, Jonathan Hardwick &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com">Jonathan.Hardwick@metasw=
itch.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Sub=
ject: </b>Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller =
protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi Stephanie,</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>You said:</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&lt; Why not limiting PCEP to path programming =
and path policies (traffic steering on path=E2=80=A6) ?</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>But why not to use for these purposes RESTCONF =
or gRPC/protobuffs? Do you see value in using explicit model based SBIs =
vs implicit (TLV-) based protocols such as &nbsp;PCE?</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Cheers,,</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Igor</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Pce [<a =
href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a =
href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stephane.litkowski@orange.c=
om</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 24, 2017 8:03 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
Jonathan Hardwick; <a =
href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject=
:</b> Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi,</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As soon as we started with the active stateful =
PCE, the PCE became an SDN controller who takes decision and programs =
the network.</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>So as many already mentioned, PCEP as an SBI is =
already done.</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><br>IMO, PCECC does not change significantly =
PCEP, it=E2=80=99s just bring a new kind of LSP style for this hop by =
hop path programming. A controller implementing hop by hop path =
programming will require more intelligence as it needs to program nodes =
in the right order to prevent transient loops=E2=80=A6</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The question is more what is the exact scope of =
PCEP in term of SBI and do we want to create a protocol that does =
everything , including coffee </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'> ?</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>We already have plenty of protocols: BGP, IGP, =
Netconf. Each protocol has strength and weaknesses and I=E2=80=99m not =
sure that we need to mimic all features in all protocols. What is the =
gain here ?</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The best approach may be to use strength of =
protocols and use them for what they are good for:</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Example:</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>IGP has good flooding capability with =
=E2=80=9Climited scale=E2=80=9D: interesting when all receivers need the =
same information</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>BGP has good flooding capability with large =
scale and ability to target specific groups (using route =
targets/communities) : interesting when groups of receivers need the =
same information</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Netconf more generic and point to =
point</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=E2=80=A6</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>IMO: </span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>do we need PCEP-LS ? =3D&gt; This can be =
discussed, we already have two protocols to exchange the =
topology=E2=80=A6 </span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>do we need to add configuration capabilities in =
PCEP =3D&gt; not sure, we have Netconf for that.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Why not limiting PCEP to path programming and =
path policies (traffic steering on path=E2=80=A6) ?</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Brgds,</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Pce [<a =
href=3D"mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Hardwick<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, =
2017 17:22<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:pce-chairs@ietf.org">pce-chairs@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject=
:</b> [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Dear PCE WG</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>The purpose of this =
email is to initiate a discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP =
to allow it to replace the functions that are traditionally provided by =
the routing and signalling protocols.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Originally, PCEP was =
designed with the goal of providing a distributed path computation =
service.&nbsp; In recent years we have extended that mission, and added =
path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.&nbsp; =
This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been =
performed by the network management plane.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>We are now starting to =
discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP =E2=80=93 =
capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and =
signalling.&nbsp; There were three examples of this in the PCE working =
group meeting this week.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path =
instantiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end =
by touching each hop along the path.&nbsp; This replaces the function =
already provided by RSVP-TE.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link =
state and TE information to be communicated from the network to the =
PCE.&nbsp; This replaces the link state flooding function provided by =
the IGPs, or BGP-LS.</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level =
configuration to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such =
as SRGBs, prefix SIDs etc.&nbsp; Again, this replaces functions that are =
already designed into the IGPs.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>These proposals are =
taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged SDN =
protocol.&nbsp; With these proposals, one can envision a network in =
which there is no traditional control plane.&nbsp; PCEP is used to =
communicate the current network state and to program flows.&nbsp; These =
proposals have their roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are =
adopted within the TEAS working group.&nbsp; TEAS is very much assuming =
that this is the direction that we want to take PCEP in.&nbsp; However, =
there are two procedural issues, as I see it.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>1.</span><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about =
whether we want to take PCEP in this direction.&nbsp; We have had a few =
lively debates on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases =
represent the =E2=80=9Cthin end of the wedge=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; If we start =
down this path then we are accepting that PCEP will replace the =
functions available in the traditional control plane.&nbsp; We need to =
test whether there is a consensus in the working group to move in that =
direction.</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>2.</span><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add =
this type of capability to PCEP.&nbsp; Depending on the outcome of =
discussion (1), we can of course extend the charter.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>This email is to =
initiate the discussion (1).&nbsp; So, please reply to the mailing list =
and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this =
direction, and how far we should go.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>I am hoping to get more =
than just =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D answers to this =
question (although that would be better than no answer).&nbsp; I would =
like to hear justifications for or against.&nbsp; Such as, which =
production networks would run PCEP in place of a traditional control =
plane?&nbsp; Why is it not desirable to solve the problems in those =
networks with the traditional control plane?&nbsp; What harm could this =
do?&nbsp; What would be the operational problems associated with adding =
these functions to PCEP?</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Many thanks</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>Jon</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>____________________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US>Ce message et ses pieces =
jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou =
privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US>pas etre diffuses, =
exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par =
erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US>a l'expediteur et le =
detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant =
susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US>Orange decline toute =
responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. =
Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US>This message and its =
attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may =
be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US>they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US>If you have received =
this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message =
and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US>As emails may be =
altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, =
changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US>Thank =
you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>_______________________________________________ Pce mailing =
list <a href=3D"mailto:Pce@ietf.org">Pce@ietf.org</a> <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/pce</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
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Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Hi Jon,

Thanks to open this thread. As many of you have already said, PCEP is alrea=
dy an SDN controller protocol since the work on stateful mode. But, IMHO, r=
ecent drafts doesn't go into the right direction. Let me explain:

1/ On PCE-LS. Of course there is already plenty of solution to learn the to=
pologye.g. listen to IGP protocol, BGP-LS ... But, dont forget that the pri=
mary goal of PCE is to compute a path on a topology. This mean that the PCE=
 need a graph which represent the network topology. This graph is extract f=
rom the TED, later fulfil by the topology learning mechanism. Why PCE-LS an=
d other equivalent mechanism that collect topology information on a node by=
 node basis ? Simply because you are unable to guarantee that the graph you=
 extract from what you learn is accurate. Indeed, a node known its interfac=
es through what the administrator configure in this node. But, it doesn't k=
now exactly to which neighbour it is connected while there is a protocol be=
tween node. In IP network, it is the role of the IGP. if there is an error =
in the node configuration, the IGP adjacency doesn't fire up and thus, IGP =
or BGP-LS will not report this link betwenn the two nodes. The graph is not=
 complete, but
not wrong. So when you learn the topology from the IGP you could guarantee =
that the link between two nodes corresponds effectively to what is really c=
onfigured and physically connected. If there is no protocol between the nod=
es, you can't guarantee that what the node announce through PCEP-LS is accu=
rate. E.g. Node A report Link A-Band node B report Link B-A instead of Link=
 B-C and LinkB-C instead of Link B-A due to a wrong manual configuration. Y=
ou obtain a wrong topology and thus a wrong graphas you invert two links be=
tween two nodes. An you have no way to check it. So, in any case, and it is=
 true for Optical / Transport network, you MUST run an IGP in your network =
to be sure that the topology is accurate and so to guarantee that the PCE w=
ork on a correct graph. A PCE working on a bad topology is painful. So, bec=
ause you must run an IGP in your network, fulfil the PCE TED by listen the =
IGP or BGP-LS is the best solution. IMHO, PCEWG must not work on alternativ=
e solution to
learn topology.

2/ On PCE-CC: Why extending PCE for such functionality ? For IP/MPLS, it is=
 a non sense to study such solutionespecially with Segment Routing where yo=
u need to configure the edge node. For Optical / Transport network, well, a=
gain, it is not the good solution. First, vendor are opposed to open their =
ROADM to fine tune the configuration of the node disregarding if the protoc=
ol is PCEP or Netconf. So, if you intend to control an Optical / Transport =
network through anSDN Controller, the best is to useGMPLS. This keep vendor=
 adjust the lambda without disclosing their IPR. Of course their is an init=
iative named OpenROADM which try to break thiswith its TransortPCE project =
within OpenDayLight. But look at the spec: it is yang model + NetConf. Not =
PCEP + extension.Again, IMHO, it is not the good solution to study.

3/ On PCECC-SR. This time, it could make sense. But, again, it is not the g=
ood way to proceed. In fact, when you use PCEP as control protocol, the nod=
e doesn't store the configuration like it does with NetConf in the standard=
-config, but it is store in the ephemeral config. This means that when the =
PCEP session break or the node reload, all the configuration is loose. If y=
ou need to wait PCE configuration to finish to boot e.g. advertise Segment =
Routing capabilities need SRGB, prefix SID ... it isnot a safe solution. Fo=
r that kind of information NetConf is superior to PCEP. In addition SPRING =
WG is working on yang model for NetConf for this purpose. Not on PCEP exten=
sion. One more time, IMHO, PCE WG must not spent energy in this direction.

4/ What is missing? Yes. There is missing pieces in the puzzle. And spent e=
nergy to extra functions while essentialones are not ready is not the good =
way to progress. I'm referring to thetraffic steering. I know that there is=
 a very recent draft that propose a FlowSpec like in PCEP. Indeed, once a t=
unnel is setup through PCEP, you have no good tool to enforce the traffic i=
n this newly created tunnel. Again, using NetConf is not a good idea as you=
 mix ephemeral config and standard config. BGP-FlowSpec is too close too re=
lated to BGP and not ensure fine granularity you wish to steer the traffic =
into a tunnel.So, IMHO, this is the direction where the WG must go.

Now, just to finish, can you raise hand in the room to count the number of =
operational network where RSVP-TE is really used (I mean other than those u=
sed for FRR) ? number of operational network using Segment Routing ? And on=
 this few subset the number that really use PCEP ? I'm pretty sure that I h=
ave sufficient finger in one hand to count them. And, if I restrict them to=
 which are really need Path Computation with constraints (I mean path diver=
sity, bandwidth reservation, delay constraint ...) I will be very happy if =
one hand raise in the room. So, fromthis poor operational usage, we absolut=
ely don't know if PCEP is stable, scale at large... Can we guarantee that a=
 PCE could maintain a PCEP session with all nodes in a large network (say 1=
000 nodes and more) ? No. Because nobody report on the WG such experience l=
ike other WG do. Do we have interoperability issues ? Yes plenty. From all =
industrial and OpenSource PCE solutions I tested no one implement correctly=
 all the RFCs
and recent drafts. So, before extending PCEP I suggest to concentrate on im=
plementing what is already available. Make large experiment, see what's hap=
pen. Debug, report, adjust. Then we could think about the future of PCEP wh=
en we will collect sufficient backgroundand experience. Upto know, from wha=
t I experiment, the technology is good, promising, but too young.

my 2cts

Olivier


Le 20/07/2017 =C3=A0 17:22, Jonathan Hardwick a =C3=A9crit :
>
> Dear PCE WG
>
>=20=20
>
> The purpose of this email is to initiate a discussion about whether we wa=
nt to extend PCEP to allow it to replace the functions that are traditional=
ly provided by the routing and signalling protocols.
>
>=20=20
>
> Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal of providing a distributed pa=
th computation service.  In recent years we have extended that mission, and=
 added path modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.  This=
 has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally have been performe=
d by the network management plane.
>
>=20=20
>
> We are now starting to discuss proposals to add more capabilities to PCEP=
 =E2=80=93 capabilities that are traditionally part of routing and signalli=
ng.  There were three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting thi=
s week.
>
> =C2=B7        The PCECC proposal, which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path insta=
ntiation capability so that the PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touc=
hing each hop along the path.  This replaces the function already provided =
by RSVP-TE.
>
> =C2=B7        The PCEP-LS proposal, which extends PCEP to allow link stat=
e and TE information to be communicated from the network to the PCE.  This =
replaces the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or BGP-LS.
>
> =C2=B7        The PCECC-SR proposal extends PCEP to allow device-level co=
nfiguration to be communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRG=
Bs, prefix SIDs etc.  Again, this replaces functions that are already desig=
ned into the IGPs.
>
>=20=20
>
> These proposals are taking PCEP in the direction of being a fully-fledged=
 SDN protocol.  With these proposals, one can envision a network in which t=
here is no traditional control plane.  PCEP is used to communicate the curr=
ent network state and to program flows.  These proposals have their roots i=
n the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are adopted within the TEAS working=
 group.  TEAS is very much assuming that this is the direction that we want=
 to take PCEP in.  However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.
>
> 1.      We have not had an explicit discussion in the PCE WG about whethe=
r we want to take PCEP in this direction.  We have had a few lively debates=
 on specific cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the =E2=80=9Cth=
in end of the wedge=E2=80=9D.  If we start down this path then we are accep=
ting that PCEP will replace the functions available in the traditional cont=
rol plane.  We need to test whether there is a consensus in the working gro=
up to move in that direction.
>
> 2.      We do not currently have a charter that allows us to add this typ=
e of capability to PCEP.  Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we ca=
n of course extend the charter.
>
>=20=20
>
> This email is to initiate the discussion (1).  So, please reply to the ma=
iling list and share your thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in th=
is direction, and how far we should go.
>
>=20=20
>
> I am hoping to get more than just =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=E2=
=80=9D answers to this question (although that would be better than no answ=
er).  I would like to hear justifications for or against.  Such as, which p=
roduction networks would run PCEP in place of a traditional control plane? =
 Why is it not desirable to solve the problems in those networks with the t=
raditional control plane?  What harm could this do?  What would be the oper=
ational problems associated with adding these functions to PCEP?
>
>=20=20
>
> Many thanks
>
> Jon
>
>=20=20
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pce mailing list
> Pce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
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they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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Thank you.


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    <p><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu">H</font>i Jon,</font></p>
    <p><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu">Thanks to open this
          thread. <font face=3D"Ubuntu">As</font> many of you have
          already said, PC<font face=3D"Ubuntu">EP is already a<font
              face=3D"Ubuntu">n SDN controller protocol since the work on
              stateful mode. But, IMHO, recent drafts d<font
                face=3D"Ubuntu">oesn't go into the right direction. Let me
                explain:</font></font></font></font></font></p>
    <p><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><f=
ont
              face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu">1/
                  On PCE-LS. Of course there is already <font
                    face=3D"Ubuntu">plenty</font> of solution <font
                    face=3D"Ubuntu">to learn the <font face=3D"Ubuntu">topo=
logy<font
                        face=3D"Ubuntu"> e.g. <font face=3D"Ubuntu">listen
                          to IGP protocol, BGP-LS ... But, dont forget
                          that the primary goal of PCE is to compute a
                          path on a topology. This mean that the PCE
                          need a graph which represent the network
                          topology<font face=3D"Ubuntu">. This graph is
                            extract from the TED, later fulfil by the
                            topology learning mechanism. Why PCE-LS and
                            other equivalent mechanism <font
                              face=3D"Ubuntu">that collect topology
                              information on a node by node basis ?
                              Simply because you are <font
                                face=3D"Ubuntu">u</font>nable to guarantee
                              that t<font face=3D"Ubuntu">he <font
                                  face=3D"Ubuntu">g</font>raph you extract
                                from what you learn is accurate. In<font
                                  face=3D"Ubuntu">deed, a node known its
                                  interfaces through what the
                                  administrator configure in this node.
                                  <font face=3D"Ubuntu">But, <font
                                      face=3D"Ubuntu">i</font>t <font
                                      face=3D"Ubuntu">doesn't know exactly
                                      to which neighbour i<font
                                        face=3D"Ubuntu">t is connected
                                        while there is a protocol
                                        between node. In IP network, it
                                        is the role of the IGP. if there
                                        is an error in the node <font
                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">configuration</fo=
nt>,
                                        the IGP adjacency doesn't fire
                                        up and thus, <font
                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">IGP or BGP-LS
                                          will not report this link
                                          betwenn the two nodes. The
                                          graph is not complete, but not
                                          wrong. So when you learn the
                                          topology from the IGP you
                                          could guarantee that the link
                                          between two nodes correspond<font
                                            face=3D"Ubuntu">s effectively
                                            to what is really configured
                                            and physically connected. If
                                            there is no protocol between
                                            the node<font face=3D"Ubuntu">s=
<font
                                                face=3D"Ubuntu">, you <font
                                                  face=3D"Ubuntu">can't
                                                  guarantee that what
                                                  the node annou<font
                                                    face=3D"Ubuntu">nce
                                                    through PCEP-LS is
                                                    accurate<font
                                                      face=3D"Ubuntu">. <fo=
nt
                                                        face=3D"Ubuntu">E.g.
                                                        Node A repo<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">rt
                                                          Link A<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">-=
B<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          and node B
                                                          report Link B-<fo=
nt
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                                                          and Link<font
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                                                          B-C instead of
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                                                          due to a wr<font
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ng
                                                          man<font
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al
                                                          configuration.
                                                          You obta<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">in
                                                          a wron<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">g
                                                          topology and
                                                          thus a wrong
                                                          graph<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          as you invert
                                                          two links
                                                          between two
                                                          node<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">s.
                                                          An you have no
                                                          way to check
                                                          it. So, in any
                                                          case, and it
                                                          is true for
                                                          Optical /
                                                          Transport
                                                          network, you
                                                          MUST run an
                                                          IGP in your
                                                          network to be
                                                          sure that the
                                                          topology is
                                                          accurate and
                                                          so to
                                                          guarantee that
                                                          the PCE work
                                                          on a correct
                                                          graph. A PCE
                                                          working on a
                                                          bad topology
                                                          is painful<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">.
                                                          So, because
                                                          you must run
                                                          an IGP in your
                                                          network,
                                                          fulfil the PCE
                                                          TED by listen
                                                          the IGP or
                                                          BGP-LS is <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">t=
he
                                                          best solution.
                                                          IMHO, PCE<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          WG must not
                                                          work on
                                                          alternative
                                                          solution to
                                                          learn
                                                          topology.</font><=
/font><br>
                                                          </font></font></f=
ont></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><=
/font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font=
></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></fo=
nt></font></font></p>
    <p><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><f=
ont
              face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                    face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                        face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                            face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                    face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                        face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                            face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                              face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                  face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                    face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                      face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                        face=3D"Ubuntu"><fo=
nt
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">2/
                                                          On PCE-CC: Why
                                                          <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">e=
xtending
                                                          PCE for such <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">f=
unctionality</font>
                                                          ? <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">F=
or
                                                          IP/MPLS, <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">it
                                                          is a non sense
                                                          to study such
                                                          solution<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          especially
                                                          with Segment
                                                          Routing where
                                                          you need to
                                                          configure the
                                                          edge node. For
                                                          Optical /
                                                          Transport
                                                          network, well,
                                                          again, it is
                                                          not the <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">g=
ood
                                                          solution.
                                                          First, vendor
                                                          are opposed to
                                                          open their
                                                          ROADM to fine
                                                          tune the
                                                          configuration
                                                          of the node <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">d=
isregarding</font>
                                                          if the
                                                          protocol is
                                                          PCEP or Net<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">c=
</font>onf.
                                                          So, if you
                                                          intend to
                                                          control an
                                                          Optical /
                                                          Transport
                                                          network
                                                          through an<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          SDN
                                                          Controller,
                                                          the best is to
                                                          use<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          GMPLS<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">.
                                                          This keep
                                                          vendor adjust
                                                          the lambda
                                                          with<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">o=
ut
                                                          disc<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">l=
o</font>sing
                                                          their <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">I=
PR.
                                                          Of c<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">o=
urse
                                                          their is an
                                                          initiative
                                                          named
                                                          OpenROADM
                                                          which try to
                                                          break this<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          with its Trans<fo=
nt
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">o=
rtPCE
                                                          project within
                                                          OpenDayLight.
                                                          But look at
                                                          the spec: it
                                                          is <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">y=
ang
                                                          model +
                                                          NetConf<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">.
                                                          Not PCEP +
                                                          extension.<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          Again, IMHO,
                                                          it is not the
                                                          good solution
                                                          to study.</font><=
/font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font=
></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></fo=
nt></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></=
font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>=
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></fon=
t></p>
    <p><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><f=
ont
              face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                    face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                        face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                            face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                    face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                        face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                            face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                              face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                  face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                    face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                      face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                        face=3D"Ubuntu"><fo=
nt
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">3/
                                                          On PCECC-SR.
                                                          This time, it
                                                          could make <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">s=
ense.
                                                          But, again<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">,
                                                          it is not the
                                                          good way to
                                                          proceed. In
                                                          fact, when you
                                                          <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">u=
se
                                                          PCEP as
                                                          control
                                                          protocol, the
                                                          node <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">d=
oesn't
                                                          store the
                                                          configuration
                                                          <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">l=
ike
                                                          it does with
                                                          NetConf in the
standard-config</font></font></font></font></font></font>, but it is
                                                          store in the
                                                          ephemeral
                                                          config. This
                                                          means that
                                                          when the PCEP
                                                          session <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">b=
reak</font>
                                                          or the <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">n=
ode</font>
                                                          re<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">l=
oad,
                                                          </font>all the
                                                          configuration
                                                          is loo<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">s=
e.
                                                          If you need to
                                                          wait PCE
                                                          configuration
                                                          to finish to
                                                          boot e.g.
                                                          advertise
                                                          Segment
                                                          Routing ca<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">p=
abilities
                                                          need SR<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">G=
B,
                                                          <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">p=
refix
                                                          SID ... it is<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          not a safe
                                                          solution. For
                                                          that kin<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">d
                                                          of information
                                                          NetConf is
                                                          superi<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">or
                                                          to PCEP. In
                                                          addition SP<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">R=
ING
                                                          <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">WG
                                                          is working on
                                                          yang model for
                                                          NetC<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">o=
nf
                                                          for this
                                                          purpose. Not
                                                          on PCEP
                                                          extension. One
                                                          more time,
                                                          IMHO, PCE WG m<fo=
nt
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">u=
st
                                                          not spent
                                                          energy in this
                                                          direc<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">t=
ion.</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><=
/font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font=
></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></fo=
nt></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></=
font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>=
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></fon=
t></font></font></font></p>
    <p><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><f=
ont
              face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                    face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                        face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                            face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                    face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                        face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                            face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                              face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                  face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                    face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                      face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                        face=3D"Ubuntu"><fo=
nt
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">4/
                                                          Wha<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">t
                                                          is missing<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">?=
</font>
                                                          Yes. There is
                                                          missing pieces
                                                          in the puzzle.
                                                          And <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">s=
pent
                                                          energy to
                                                          extra
                                                          functions
                                                          while
                                                          essential<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          ones are n<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">ot
                                                          ready is not
                                                          the good way
                                                          to prog<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">r=
ess.
                                                          <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">I=
'm
                                                          <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">r=
eferring</font>
                                                          to the<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          traffic
                                                          steering. I
                                                          know that
                                                          there is a
                                                          very recent
                                                          draft that
                                                          propose a
                                                          FlowSpec like
                                                          <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">in
                                                          PCEP. Indeed,
                                                          once a tunnel
                                                          is setup <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">t=
hrough
                                                          PCEP<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">,
                                                          you have no
                                                          good tool to
                                                          enforce the
                                                          traffic in
                                                          this new<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">ly
                                                          created
                                                          tunnel. Again,
                                                          using NetConf
                                                          is not a good
                                                          <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">i=
dea
                                                          as you mix
                                                          ephemeral
                                                          config and
                                                          standard
                                                          config. BGP-<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">F=
lowSpec
                                                          is too close <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">t=
oo
                                                          related to BGP
                                                          and not ensure
                                                          fine
                                                          granularity
                                                          you wish to
                                                          steer the
                                                          traffic into a
                                                          tunnel.<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          So,</font></font>=
</font></font></font></font></font>
                                                          IMHO, <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">t=
</font>his
                                                          is the
                                                          direction
                                                          where the WG
                                                          must go.</font></=
font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>=
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
                                                          </font></font></f=
ont></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><=
/font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font=
></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></fo=
nt></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></=
font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
    <p><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><f=
ont
              face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                    face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                        face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                            face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                    face=3D"Ubuntu"><font face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                        face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                            face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                              face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                  face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                    face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                      face=3D"Ubuntu"><font
                                                        face=3D"Ubuntu"><fo=
nt
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu"><=
font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">N=
ow,
                                                          just to
                                                          finish, <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">c=
an
                                                          you raise hand
                                                          in the room to
                                                          count the
                                                          number of
                                                          operational
                                                          network where
                                                          <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">R=
SVP-TE
                                                          is really used
                                                          (I mean <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">o=
ther
                                                          than th<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">o=
se
                                                          used for</font>
                                                          FRR<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">)
                                                          </font></font>?
                                                          number of
                                                          operational
                                                          network <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">u=
sing
                                                          Segment
                                                          Routing ? </font>=
</font></font></font>And
                                                          on this few
                                                          subset the
                                                          number that
                                                          really use PCE<fo=
nt
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">P
                                                          </font>? <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">I=
'm
                                                          pretty su<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">re
                                                          that I have
                                                          sufficient
                                                          finger in <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">o=
ne</font>
                                                          hand to count
                                                          them. And, if
                                                          I restrict the<fo=
nt
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">m
                                                          to which are
                                                          really <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">n=
eed
                                                          Path
                                                          Computation <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">w=
ith</font>
                                                          constraints (I
                                                          mean <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">p=
ath
                                                          diversity,
                                                          bandwidth
                                                          reservation<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">,
                                                          delay co<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">n=
s</font>traint
                                                          ...</font></font>=
</font></font></font></font>)
                                                          <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">I
                                                          will be very
                                                          happy if one
                                                          hand raise in
                                                          the room. So,
                                                          <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">f=
rom<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          this poor
                                                          operational
                                                          usage, </font></f=
ont></font>we
                                                          <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">a=
bsolutely
                                                          don't know if
                                                          PCEP is
                                                          stable, scale
                                                          at large<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          ... </font></font=
>Can
                                                          we guarantee
                                                          that a PCE
                                                          could maint<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">a=
in
                                                          a PCE<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">P
                                                          session with
                                                          all nodes in a
                                                          large network
                                                          (say 1000
                                                          nodes and <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">m=
ore)
                                                          ? No. Because
                                                          nobody <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">r=
eport
                                                          on the WG such
                                                          experience
                                                          like other WG
                                                          do. Do we <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">h=
ave
interoperability iss<font face=3D"Ubuntu">u<font face=3D"Ubuntu">es ? Yes
                                                          plenty. From
                                                          all <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">i=
ndustr<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">i=
al
                                                          and Open<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">
                                                          So<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">u=
rce
                                                          PCE <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">s=
olutions
                                                          </font></font></f=
ont></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>I
                                                          tested no one
                                                          implement
                                                          correctly all
                                                          the RF<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">C=
s</font>
                                                          and recent
                                                          drafts. So,
                                                          before
                                                          extending PCEP
                                                          I suggest to
                                                          concentrate on
                                                          implem<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">e=
nting
                                                          what is
                                                          already
                                                          available.
                                                          Make large
                                                          experiment,
                                                          see what's
                                                          happen. Debug<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">,
                                                          report, adjust<fo=
nt
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">.
                                                          The<font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">n
                                                          we could think
                                                          about the
                                                          future <font
                                                          face=3D"Ubuntu">of
                                                          PCEP when we
                                                          will collect
                                                          sufficient
                                                          background<font
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</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Le 20/07/2017 =C3=A0 17:22, Jonathan
      Hardwick a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class=3D"WordSection1">
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear PCE WG<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The purpose of this email is to initiate a
          discussion about whether we want to extend PCEP to allow it to
          replace the functions that are traditionally provided by the
          routing and signalling protocols.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Originally, PCEP was designed with the goal
          of providing a distributed path computation service.=C2=A0 In
          recent years we have extended that mission, and added path
          modification and path instantiation capabilities to PCEP.=C2=A0
          This has added capabilities to PCEP that would traditionally
          have been performed by the network management plane.<o:p></o:p></=
p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">We are now starting to discuss proposals to
          add more capabilities to PCEP =E2=80=93 capabilities that are
          traditionally part of routing and signalling.=C2=A0 There were
          three examples of this in the PCE working group meeting this
          week.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"
          style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !su=
pportLists]--><span
            style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=
=C2=B7<span
                style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->The PCECC proposal,
          which extends PCEP=E2=80=99s path instantiation capability so tha=
t the
          PCE can provision a path end-to-end by touching each hop along
          the path.=C2=A0 This replaces the function already provided by
          RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"
          style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !su=
pportLists]--><span
            style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=
=C2=B7<span
                style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->The PCEP-LS proposal,
          which extends PCEP to allow link state and TE information to
          be communicated from the network to the PCE.=C2=A0 This replaces
          the link state flooding function provided by the IGPs, or
          BGP-LS.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"
          style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !su=
pportLists]--><span
            style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=
=C2=B7<span
                style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->The PCECC-SR proposal
          extends PCEP to allow device-level configuration to be
          communicated between the network and the PCE, such as SRGBs,
          prefix SIDs etc.=C2=A0 Again, this replaces functions that are
          already designed into the IGPs.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">These proposals are taking PCEP in the
          direction of being a fully-fledged SDN protocol.=C2=A0 With these
          proposals, one can envision a network in which there is no
          traditional control plane.=C2=A0 PCEP is used to communicate the
          current network state and to program flows.=C2=A0 These proposals
          have their roots in the ACTN and PCECC architectures that are
          adopted within the TEAS working group.=C2=A0 TEAS is very much
          assuming that this is the direction that we want to take PCEP
          in.=C2=A0 However, there are two procedural issues, as I see it.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"
          style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4"><!--[if !su=
pportLists]--><span
            style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt
              &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            </span></span><!--[endif]-->We have not had an explicit
          discussion in the PCE WG about whether we want to take PCEP in
          this direction.=C2=A0 We have had a few lively debates on specific
          cases, like PCEP-LS, but those cases represent the =E2=80=9Cthin =
end
          of the wedge=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 If we start down this path then we a=
re
          accepting that PCEP will replace the functions available in
          the traditional control plane.=C2=A0 We need to test whether there
          is a consensus in the working group to move in that direction.<o:=
p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"
          style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4"><!--[if !su=
pportLists]--><span
            style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt
              &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
            </span></span><!--[endif]-->We do not currently have a
          charter that allows us to add this type of capability to
          PCEP.=C2=A0 Depending on the outcome of discussion (1), we can of
          course extend the charter.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">This email is to initiate the discussion
          (1).=C2=A0 So, please reply to the mailing list and share your
          thoughts on whether PCEP should be extended in this direction,
          and how far we should go.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am hoping to get more than just =E2=80=9Cy=
es=E2=80=9D or
          =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D answers to this question (although that woul=
d be better
          than no answer).=C2=A0 I would like to hear justifications for or
          against.=C2=A0 Such as, which production networks would run PCEP =
in
          place of a traditional control plane?=C2=A0 Why is it not desirab=
le
          to solve the problems in those networks with the traditional
          control plane?=C2=A0 What harm could this do?=C2=A0 What would be=
 the
          operational problems associated with adding these functions to
          PCEP?<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Many thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jon<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
Pce mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:Pce@ietf.org">Pce@ietf=
.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/pce">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
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Thread-Topic: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/hpcSVnufM6MHlOL354y65J2TrIY>
Subject: Re: [Pce] PCEP as an SDN controller protocol?
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From: Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.dhody@huawei.com>
To: Dale Worley <worley@ariadne.com>, "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-pce-pceps.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pce-pceps.all@ietf.org>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Pce] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-pce-pceps-14
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Hi Dale,=20

Thanks for your detailed review and providing suggested text.=20
Sorry for being a little late with this reply.=20
Please see inline...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dale Worley
> Sent: 12 July 2017 08:38
> To: gen-art@ietf.org
> Cc: draft-ietf-pce-pceps.all@ietf.org; pce@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org
> Subject: [Pce] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-pce-pceps-14
>=20
> Reviewer: Dale Worley
> Review result: Ready with Nits
>=20
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft.  The General Area
> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the
> IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just like any other
> last call comments.
>=20
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
> <http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/area/gen/trac/wiki/GenArtfaq>.
>=20
> Document:  draft-ietf-pce-pceps-14
> Reviewer:  Dale R. Worley
> Review Date:  2017-07-11
> IETF LC End Date:  2017-07-12
> IESG Telechat date:  2017-08-03
>=20
> Summary:
>=20
>        This draft is basically ready for publication, but has nits
>        that should be fixed before publication.
>=20
> Nits/editorial comments:
>=20
> A few of these may rise to the level of minor technical issues,
> especially:
> section 3.2: whether error TBA2/2 is distinct from error 1/1=20
[[Dhruv Dhody]] The context of these error are different, one is before TLS=
 establishment (startTLS) and another is during PCEP session establishment =
(which is after TLS has been established). IMHO it is better to keep them d=
istinct.=20

section 3.2:
> the receipt of an PCErr during the failure of TLS
>              establishment
[[Dhruv Dhody]] The idea behind Error TBA2/3 and TBA2/4, is to let the peer=
 know if it is unwilling (or willing) to establish PCEP session without TLS=
 from this peer. This is useful information to figure out how the peer shou=
ld react without human intervention. =20
=20
> section 3.3: the distinction between StartTLSWait and OpenWait
[[Dhruv Dhody]] Both timers are wait timers but they wait for different mes=
sages and used in different context. Also the values can be set differently=
 based on the deployment.=20

> section 5:   a full discussion of backward compatibility considerations
[[Dhruv Dhody]] I have added some more details.=20

> section 8.2: MIB extension
[[Dhruv Dhody]] I have added some more details.

More details on above inline.=20

>=20
> 1.  Introduction
>=20
>    This document describes a security container for the transport of
>    PCEP messages, and therefore they do not affect the flexibility and
>    extensibility of PCEP.
>=20
> There is no plural antecedent for "they" to reference.  I think you could
> use "it", but the Editor may have better suggestions.
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Ack

> 3.2.  Initiating the TLS Procedures
>=20
>    with a PCErr message with Error-Type set to [TBA2 by IANA] (PCEP
>    StartTLS failure)
>=20
> It seems that we shouldn't use this Error-Type to object to the use of a
> message other than Open and StartTLS as an initial message, as that error
> isn't a misuse of StartTLS per se and is only incidentally related to
> StartTLS.  Indeed, isn't there already an Error-Type for this error
> (unexpected initial message), since two RFC 5440 implementations can
> commit/detect it?  Looking at RFC 5440 section 7.15, I see:
>=20
>    Error-Type    Meaning
>       1          PCEP session establishment failure
>                  Error-value=3D1: reception of an invalid Open message or
>                                 a non Open message.
>=20
> It seems to me that this document is adjusting the meaning of error 1/1,
> rather than defining a new error situation.
>=20
[[Dhruv Dhody]] We wanted to differentiate between the message exchanges du=
ring PCEP session establishment (which starts with open) and with StartTLS =
(which starts with StartTLS). Note that in case of TLS, we would move to th=
e PCEP session establishment phase after the TLS is established, and we cou=
ld still receive error 1/1.=20
Regarding TBA2/2, in case of PCEPS, a peer could respond with StartTls, Ope=
n or PCErr (but all in the context of this document), so we needed a new er=
ror. The peer was expecting StartTLS related message but something else hap=
pened and thus an error! IMHO putting this under "PCEP StartTLS failure" er=
ror-type is better!=20

Do you feel strongly about changing this?=20

>    If the PCEP speaker that does not support PCEPS, receives a StartTLS
>    message, it MUST behave according to the existing error mechanism
>    described in section 6.2 of [RFC5440] (in case message is received
>    prior to an Open message) or section 6.9 of [RFC5440] (for the case
>    of reception of unknown message).
>=20
> I think you want s/MUST/will/, since the described behavior isn't
> specified by this document, but rather by RFC 5440.

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Ack, updated.
>=20
> In any case, this paragraph might want to reference the backward-
> compatibility consideration that I would expect to appear in section 5 --
> How does the PCEPS-supporting element deal with the non-PCEPS-supporting
> element after the connection attempt with StartTLS fails?

 [[Dhruv Dhody]] I have added that in section 5.=20
>=20
>    After the exchange of startTLS messages, if a PCEP speaker cannot
>    establish a TLS connection for some reason (e.g. the required
>    mechanisms for certificate revocation checking are not available), it
>    MUST return a PCErr message (in clear) with Error-Type set to [TBA2
>    by IANA] (PCEP StartTLS failure) and Error-value set to:
>=20
> s/startTLS/StartTLS/

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Ack.
>=20
> Is there a well-defined way for a participant in a TLS connection start t=
o
> receive *either* a PCErr message in the clear *or* whatever comes next in
> TLS setup -- and know which case has happened?  Is there a way to use
> popular modular TLS libraries and have the application above the library
> receive such a PCErr message?  I don't understand TLS nearly well enough
> to know the answer to this, but it would probably help implementors if
> answers were given to these questions.

[[Dhruv Dhody]] If the TLS handshake is successful, both local and remote p=
arties are aware of this. Same is the case for TLS failure. So receiving an=
 error message in clear will not be a surprise.=20
Also, I checked some of the other documents that describe the use of TLS, b=
ut did not find any such handling.=20

>=20
>       The peer MAY choose to re-establish the PCEP session
>       without TLS next.
>=20
> I think you mean "The peer that initiated the connection MAY choose to re=
-
> establish ...".  As written, "the peer" seems to refer to the peer that
> generated the PCErr, but if it was the receiving peer that generated the
> PCErr, you probably don't want it to attempt to re-establish the session
> but rather wait for the initiating peer to do so.
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Ack. Changed peer to receiver.=20

>    Given the asymmetric nature of TLS for connection establishment it is
>    relevant to identify the roles of each of the PCEP peers in it.  The
>    PCC SHALL act as TLS client, and the PCE SHALL act as TLS server,
>    according to [RFC5246].
>=20
> See comments re section 4 about terminology.  I think you need to have
> terms for the element that is initiating the connection (either a PCC or =
a
> PCE) and the element that is receiving the connection (always a PCE).
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] I have updated this.=20

> 3.3.  The StartTLS Message
>=20
>    Once the TCP connection has been successfully established and the
>    StartTLS message sent, the sender MUST start a timer called
>    StartTLSWait timer, after the expiration of which, if no StartTLS
>    message has been received, it MUST send a PCErr message and releases
>    the TCP connection with Error-Type set to [TBA2 by IANA] and Error-
>    value set to 5 (no StartTLS message received before the expiration of
>    the StartTLSWait timer).  A RECOMMENDED value for StartTLSWait timer
>    is 60 seconds.
>=20
> Really, the timer is the time to wait for *any* message to received.
> Open messages will cause start of upward-compatibility mechanisms (if any=
);
> any other message will be immediately rejected as an error.
>=20
> Indeed, isn't there already a timer which a peer uses to wait for the
> other peer to send a message?  Isn't StartTLSWait functionally the same a=
s
> OpenWait (RFC 5440 section 6.2)?
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] I have updated the description, but I would still like to k=
eep a different timer similar to OpenWait and KeepWait (in the spirit of RF=
C 5440).=20

>    ... it MUST send a PCErr message and releases ...
>=20
> This sentence is grammatically interesting.  One part is logically "it
> MUST send a PCErr message".  The second part might be "it MUST release th=
e
> TCP connection", or "it releases the TCP connection".  Strictly speaking,
> the rules of English grammar cause the release/releases distinction to
> disambiguate whether MUST applies to both parts or only to the first part=
.
> But I don't think you want to rely on that, and you want to say "... and
> MUST release the TCP connection ...".

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Updated.

>=20
> 3.4.  TLS Connection Establishment
>=20
>    1.  Immediately negotiate TLS sessions according to [RFC5246].
>=20
> In this case, you'd say "Immediately negotiate a TLS session ...".

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Ack

>=20
> 3.5.  Peer Identity
>=20
>    At least the following parameters of the X.509 certificate SHOULD
>    be exposed:
>=20
>    o  Peer's IP address
>=20
>    o  Peer's fully qualified domain name (FQDN)
>=20
> To the naive (me), these two items seem to refer to the TCP connection
> that was established.  But I suspect that they're intended to refer to th=
e
> IP address and FQDN that might be encoded in the certificate (as in, "The
> following precedence applies: for DNS name validation, subjectAltName:DNS
> has precedence over CN; for IP address validation, subjectAltName:iPAddr
> has precedence over CN.")
>=20
> And it seems that the actual remote IP address of the TCP connection and
> whatever remote FQDN or IP address was used to initiate the connection
> should also be exposed to the administrative system.
>=20
> So I think there's room to expand on and clarify exactly the data items
> that are intended here.

[[Dhruv Dhody]] The statement above the list clearly state that this is the=
 information from X.509 certificate.
The TCP socket IP address is definitely known and exposed as that this way =
to identify a session. I have added this text -=20

"Note that the remote IP address used for the TCP session establishment is =
also exposed."

>=20
> 4.  Discovery Mechanisms
>=20
>    A PCE can advertise its capability to support PCEPS using the IGP
>    advertisement and discovery mechanism.
>=20
> If I understand this correctly, IGP is "Interior Gateway Protocol", and
> it's a category of protocols, not a specific protocol.  And what you're
> saying is that a PCE can advertise using the relevant IGP's mechanism.  I=
n
> that case, I think you'd say "the IGP's advertisement and discovery
> mechanism".  (Unless somehow IS-IS and OSPF are seen as variants of the
> same protocol, which can generically be called IGP.)
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Updated.

>    A new
>    capability flag bit for the PCE-CAP-FLAGS sub-TLV that can be
>    announced as attribute to distribute PCEP security support
>    information is proposed in [I-D.wu-pce-discovery-pceps-support]
>=20
> s/announced as attribute/announced as an attribute/.
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Updated.

> But you don't want to say "is proposed in ..." because that suggests that
> the proposal might not be approved, and you've already positively stated
> "A PCE can advertise ...".  So you want to say "A new capability flag ...
> is defined in ..." -- and raise draft-wu-pce-discovery-pceps-support to a
> normative reference.
>=20
> Similar considerations apply to discovery via DNS
> (draft-wu-pce-dns-pce-discovery) -- you want to mention it here and
> consider it a normative reference.
>=20
> -- Unless you choose to make this part of the section clearly hypothetica=
l
> by starting "This document does not specify any method a PCE can advertis=
e
> that it supports (or requires) PCEPS, but two mechanisms have been
> proposed:"

[[Dhruv Dhody]] I would like to avoid normative reference as these are=20
not mandatory and we would not want to block publication of this draft.=20
I have updated the text accordingly and removed the text from this document=
=20
Regarding DNS.=20

>=20
>    When DNS is used by a PCC (or a PCE acting as a client, for the rest
>    of the section, PCC refers to both) willing to use PCEPS to locate an
>    appropriate PCE [I-D.wu-pce-dns-pce-discovery], the PCC as an
>    initiating entity, chooses at least one of the returned FQDNs to
>    resolve, which it does by performing DNS "A" or "AAAA" lookups on the
>    FDQN.
>=20
> s/FDQN/FQDN/
>=20
> This one sentence uses the terms "acting as a client" and "as an
> initiating entity" to mean the same thing.  You should fix on one term.
> And given that the same concept arises in the discussion of TLS initiatio=
n
> (section 3.2), you probably want to define the term for "a PCC (or a PCE
> acting as a client)" near the beginning as document-wide terminology.
> Once you've got names for the concepts of the initiating entity and the
> receiving entity, a number of things in the document can then be stated
> more clearly.
>=20
>    If the PCC receives a response to its SRV query but it is not able to
>    establish a PCEPS connection using the data received in the response,
>    as initiating entity it MAY fall back to lookup a PCE that uses TCP
>    as transport.
>=20
> This is unclear -- if the process of resolving the original FQDN into
> addresses fails to produce an address that can be contacted, how can the
> PCC "fall back to lookup a PCE that uses TCP as transport" -- it has
> already done the looking up, and that failed.
>=20
> I suspect you mean that the PCC is required to first attempt to contact
> each address using TLS, and then only if all of those attempts fail is it
> then permitted to fall back to using TCP.  But you don't actually say tha=
t.
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] I have removed the details from this document.=20

> 5.  Backward Compatibility
>=20
> It would help if this section gave a more comprehensive discussion of how
> PCEPS-supporting PCEs/PCCs and non-PCEPS-supporting PCEs/PCCs can
> interwork, i.e., how to incrementally deploy PCEPS into an AS.  The two
> major points seem to be (1) arranging that any two elements will
> communicate with the highest level of security that they both implement,
> and (2) any system of PCEPS-supporting and non-PCEPS-supporting elements
> can interwork successfully.  There probably are some "interesting"
> management and security issues involved in this.
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Updated.=20

   If a PCEP implementation that does not support PCEPS receives a
   StartTLS message, it would behave according to the existing error
   mechanism of [RFC5440].  On receiving the error, based on the local
   policy, a peer could try to establishing PCEP session without TLS as
   per the procedures defined in [RFC5440].  For successful TLS
   operations with PCEP, both PCEP peers in the network would need to be
   upgraded to support this document.

   An existing PCEP session cannot be upgraded to PCEPS, the session
   needs to be terminated and reestablished as per the procedure
   described in this document.  During the incremental upgrade, the PCEP
   speaker SHOULD allow session establishment with and without TLS.
   Once both PCEP speakers are upgraded to support PCEPS, the PCEP
   session is re-established with TLS, otherwise PCEP session without
   TLS is setup.  A redundant PCE MAY also be used during the
   incremental deployment to take over the PCE undergoing upgrade.  Once
   the upgrade is completed, support for unsecured version SHOULD be
   removed.

> 6.2.  New Error-Values
>=20
> I've noted above that the function of Error-Type=3DTBA2/Error-Value=3D2 s=
eems
> to duplicate that of Error-Type=3D1/Error-Value=3D1.
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] See reply above.=20

> The meaning of Error-Type=3DTBA2 is named "StartTLS Failure" here, but th=
e
> rest of the text uses "StartTLS failure".  The table given in RFC
> 5440 section 7.15 is not consistent about capitalization in the names of
> Error-Types, but most entries do not capitalize non-initial words.
> That suggests "StartTLS failure" should be used here.

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Ack.

>=20
> 7.  Security Considerations
>=20
> There needs to be some consideration of interoperation of mixed PCEPS-
> capable and non-PCEPS-capable elements (unless such mixtures are NOT
> RECOMMENDED).
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] yes strict TLS is recommended.=20
.

> 8.1.  Control of Function and Policy
>=20
>    A PCEP implementation SHOULD allow configuring the following PCEP
>    security parameters:
>=20
>    o  StartTLSWait timer value
>=20
>    PCEPS implementations MAY provide ...
>=20
> If I read this correctly, there is only one security parameter in this
> list.  But since the text says "the following PCEP security parameters:",
> on my first reading, I assumed that "PCEPS implementation MAY provide ...=
"
> was the beginning of a second item (with the initial "o" omitted).
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Updated.

>    provide ways for the operator to complete the following tasks:
>=20
> It looks like all of the following tasks are with regard to a selected
> PCEP session, though only the first task is labeled as such, whereas the
> 2nd through 4th are not.  It seems like you want to say "to complete the
> following tasks in regard to any PCEP session:" and change the 1st to
> "Determine if the session is protected via PCEPS."
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Updated.

> 8.2.  Information and Data Models
>=20
>    The PCEP MIB module SHOULD be extended to include PCEPS capabilities,
>    information, and status.
>=20
> This isn't a "SHOULD" because it isn't a constraint on implementations,
> it's a statement of what would be a desirable action by the IETF. --
> Unless the idea is that the implementor SHOULD add a (necessarily
> proprietary) extension to the MIB.  In any case, RFC 7420 should be
> referenced.)
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Ack.

> 8.4.  Verify Correct Operations
>=20
> This section title is a verb phrase while the rest of the titles are noun
> phrases.  Perhaps "Verification of Correct Operations".
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Changed to "Verifying Correct Operation".

> 8.5.  Requirements on Other Protocols
>=20
>    Mechanisms defined in this document do not imply any new requirements
>    on other protocols.
>=20
> There is a correlated discovery mechanism:
> draft-wu-pce-discovery-pceps-support defines a correlated change to OSPF
> and IS-IS.  I suppose that isn't *required* by this document, as draft-wu=
-
> pce-dns-pce-discovery or configuration might be used.  But conceptually,
> the two discovery mechanisms are implied by this document.
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Ack.

> 10.1.  Normative References
>=20
> It seems to me that draft-wu-pce-discovery-pceps-support and draft-wu-pce=
-
> dns-pce-discovery should be considered normative references.
>=20
>=20

[[Dhruv Dhody]] Updated the text so that they could remain informative.=20

Thanks again for your review.=20
I have attached the working copy and the diff.=20

Regards,
Dhruv

> _______________________________________________
> Pce mailing list
> Pce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce

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--_003_23CE718903A838468A8B325B80962F9B8CB95DF7blreml501mbb_--



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Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.dhody@huawei.com> writes:

The bulk of these items I either agree with completely or am willing to
defer to your judgment.  The items that seem to merit further
discussion are below.  Most of these items are consolidations of several
remarks I made that seem to be the same fundamental question.

>> section 3.2: whether error TBA2/2 is distinct from error 1/1 

> [[Dhruv Dhody]] The context of these error are different, one is
> before TLS establishment (startTLS) and another is during PCEP session
> establishment (which is after TLS has been established). IMHO it is
> better to keep them distinct. 

It's more complicated than that:  If a PCE does not like the first
message it receives, if it implements PCEPS, it replies TBA2/2.  But if
it does not implement PCEPS, it replies 1/1.  Similarly, a PCC may
reject an initial message with either of these error codes, depending on
the situation.  If the other endpoint does not implement PCEPS, it might
be surprised by receiving TBA2/2, which it has no way of understanding
in detail (although it will probably simply disconnect, which is what it
would do in reaction to a 1/1).

A non-implementing endpoint rejects an initial message only with 1/1.

OTOH, once TLS has been established, then both endpoints can only object
to the first encrypted message with 1/1.

There's nothing intrinsically incorrect about this, but it is rather
complicated, particularly in the upward-compatibility case where the PCC
is willing to accept either PCEPS-implementing or non-PCEPS-implementing
connections.

>> section 3.3: the distinction between StartTLSWait and OpenWait

> [[Dhruv Dhody]] Both timers are wait timers but they wait for
> different messages and used in different context. Also the values can
> be set differently based on the deployment. 

There's a complication if a PCE allows both PCEPS and PCEP connections.
In that case, it does not send its initial message until it receives a
message from the PCC.  If the message is StartTLS, the PCC wants to
connect using PCEPS and the PCE sends StartTLS; if the message is Open,
the PCC wants to connect using PCEP and the PCE sends Open.

The question is, what timeout does the PCE use while waiting for the
initial message?  If the connection *will be* PCEPS, it should use
StartTLSWait (per draft-ietf-pce-pceps), if the connection *will be*
PCEP, it should use OpenWait (per RFC 5440).  But it does not have the
information to choose the timer.  The difficulty is that initially, the
PCE is simulating both a PCEP and a PCEPS device, and using the message
it receives from the PCC to disambiguate its situation.  But the timeout
values prescribed for the two situations are different.

My feeling is that the two situations -- waiting for Open and waiting
for StartTLS -- are not sufficiently distinguishable to allow
prescribing two different timers.  Of course, this could be cured by
proper configuration -- giving the same value to StartTLSWait and
OpenWait.

OTOH, once TLS has been established and the Open messages are awaited,
both endpoints use OpenWait.  However, this situation is not really the
same as when the TCP connection has been just been established.  And
yet, a PCE may be obligated to use the same timer for both situations.

>> 3.2.  Initiating the TLS Procedures
...
> Do you feel strongly about changing this? 

Of course, I'm only a reviewer, you needn't defer to my opinion about
anything.

>> Is there a well-defined way for a participant in a TLS connection start to
>> receive *either* a PCErr message in the clear *or* whatever comes next in
>> TLS setup -- and know which case has happened?  Is there a way to use
>> popular modular TLS libraries and have the application above the library
>> receive such a PCErr message?  I don't understand TLS nearly well enough
>> to know the answer to this, but it would probably help implementors if
>> answers were given to these questions.
>
> [[Dhruv Dhody]] If the TLS handshake is successful, both local and
> remote parties are aware of this. Same is the case for TLS failure. So
> receiving an error message in clear will not be a surprise. 
>
> Also, I checked some of the other documents that describe the use of
> TLS, but did not find any such handling. 

OK, I think I understand now; my previous comment was based on a
misunderstanding.  The correct sequence of operations for PCEPS
setup is:  Both endpoints send a StartTLS to each other.  After that, the
initiator starts the TLS setup.  Alternatively, the PCC sends StartTLS
and the non-PCEPS-implementing PCE sends a PCErr.  In either case, the
PCC sends a StartTLS and then listens for a PCEP message in response.
In any case, neither endpoint is ever in a situation where it could
receive either a PCEP message or a TLS setup message.

>> 5.  Backward Compatibility
...
> [[Dhruv Dhody]] Updated. 
>
>    If a PCEP implementation that does not support PCEPS receives a
>    StartTLS message, ...

I think this is a significant improvement, as you can never be too
careful about upward-compatibility issues, especially when security is
involved.

--

Concerning the figures:

                  +-+-+                 +-+-+
                  |PCC|                 |PCE|
                  +-+-+                 +-+-+
                    |                     | Does not send
                    |      StartTLS       | StartTLS as
                    |-------------------->| cannot establish
                    |                     | TLS
                    |                     |
                    |<--------------------| Send Error
                    |      PCErr          | Error-Value 3/4
                    |                     |


   Figure 2: Both PCEP Speaker supports PCEPS, But cannot establish TLS


                  +-+-+                 +-+-+
                  |PCC|                 |PCE|
                  +-+-+                 +-+-+
                    |                     |  Does not support
                    | StartTLS            |  PCEPS and thus
                    | msg                 |  sends Open
                    |-------              |
                    |       \   Open      |
                    |        \  msg       |
                    |         \  ---------|
                    |          \/         |
                    |          /\         |
                    |         /  -------->|
                    |        /            |
                    |<------              |
                    |                     |
                    |<--------------------| Send Error
                    |       PCErr         | (non-Open message
                    |                     |  received)


             Figure 3: One PCEP Speaker does not support PCEPS

IIUC, in Figure 2 the error has error-value 3/4 and is "Not supported
object" ... is that right?  I'd think it would be TBA2/4, "Failure,
connection without TLS possible" (or TBA2/3, depending on
circumstances).  And in Figure 3, the error is 1/1.  It seems like it
would be clearer if both the number and the text were shown for the
error messages in both the figures.

Is there also this flow?

                  +-+-+                 +-+-+
                  |PCC|                 |PCE|
                  +-+-+                 +-+-+
                    |                     |  Does not support
                    | StartTLS            |  PCEPS and thus
                    | msg                 |  sends Open
                    |-------              |
                    |       \   Open      |
                    |        \  msg       |
                    |         \  ---------|
                    |          \/         |
                    |          /\         |
                    |         /  -------->|
                    |        /            |
                    |<------              |
                    |                     |
                    |-------------------->|
                    |       PCErr         |
                    |                     |

Where the error indicates "Expecting a StartTLS but received an Open"?
Or is this situation always signaled by the receiver (as in Figure 3)
rather than the initiator?

Dale


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From: Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.dhody@huawei.com>
To: "'Dale R. Worley'" <worley@ariadne.com>
CC: "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-pce-pceps.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pce-pceps.all@ietf.org>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Pce] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-pce-pceps-14
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Hi Dale,

Thanks for your further comments, please see inline..

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dale R. Worley [mailto:worley@ariadne.com]
> Sent: 31 July 2017 06:26
> To: Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.dhody@huawei.com>
> Cc: gen-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-pce-pceps.all@ietf.org; pce@ietf.org;
> ietf@ietf.org; dhruv.ietf@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Pce] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-pce-pceps-14
>=20
> Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.dhody@huawei.com> writes:
>=20
> The bulk of these items I either agree with completely or am willing to
> defer to your judgment.  The items that seem to merit further discussion
> are below.  Most of these items are consolidations of several remarks I
> made that seem to be the same fundamental question.
>=20
> >> section 3.2: whether error TBA2/2 is distinct from error 1/1
>=20
> > [[Dhruv Dhody]] The context of these error are different, one is
> > before TLS establishment (startTLS) and another is during PCEP session
> > establishment (which is after TLS has been established). IMHO it is
> > better to keep them distinct.
>=20
> It's more complicated than that:  If a PCE does not like the first messag=
e
> it receives, if it implements PCEPS, it replies TBA2/2.  But if it does
> not implement PCEPS, it replies 1/1.  Similarly, a PCC may reject an
> initial message with either of these error codes, depending on the
> situation.  If the other endpoint does not implement PCEPS, it might be
> surprised by receiving TBA2/2, which it has no way of understanding in
> detail (although it will probably simply disconnect, which is what it
> would do in reaction to a 1/1).
>=20
[[Dhruv Dhody]] You are right about this case, which I have clarified now -=
 =20

   If the PCEP speaker that only supports PCEPS connection (as a local
   policy), receives an Open message, it MUST treat it as an unexpected
   message and reply with a PCErr message with Error-Type set to 1 (PCEP
   session establishment failure) and Error-value set to 1 (reception of
   an invalid Open message or a non Open message).

In your description you mentioned the error TBA2/2, but the description of =
TBA2/2 is  -=20

   A PCEP
   speaker receiving any other message apart from StartTLS, Open, or
   PCErr as the first message, MUST treat it as an unexpected message
   and reply with a PCErr message with Error-Type set to [TBA2 by IANA]
   (PCEP StartTLS failure) and Error-value set to 2 (reception of any
   other message apart from StartTLS, Open, or PCErr message), and MUST
   close the TCP connection.

So receiving of open message would not trigger this error. The new text abo=
ve would take care of that.=20

> A non-implementing endpoint rejects an initial message only with 1/1.
>=20
> OTOH, once TLS has been established, then both endpoints can only object
> to the first encrypted message with 1/1.
>=20
> There's nothing intrinsically incorrect about this, but it is rather
> complicated, particularly in the upward-compatibility case where the PCC
> is willing to accept either PCEPS-implementing or non-PCEPS-implementing
> connections.
>=20
[[Dhruv Dhody]] I have created a table that describe all the cases as part =
the updated text. =20
See https://github.com/dhruvdhody-huawei/ietf/raw/master/Compare.pdf=20

> >> section 3.3: the distinction between StartTLSWait and OpenWait
>=20
> > [[Dhruv Dhody]] Both timers are wait timers but they wait for
> > different messages and used in different context. Also the values can
> > be set differently based on the deployment.
>=20
> There's a complication if a PCE allows both PCEPS and PCEP connections.
> In that case, it does not send its initial message until it receives a
> message from the PCC.  If the message is StartTLS, the PCC wants to
> connect using PCEPS and the PCE sends StartTLS; if the message is Open,
> the PCC wants to connect using PCEP and the PCE sends Open.
>=20
> The question is, what timeout does the PCE use while waiting for the
> initial message?  If the connection *will be* PCEPS, it should use
> StartTLSWait (per draft-ietf-pce-pceps), if the connection *will be* PCEP=
,
> it should use OpenWait (per RFC 5440).  But it does not have the
> information to choose the timer.  The difficulty is that initially, the
> PCE is simulating both a PCEP and a PCEPS device, and using the message i=
t
> receives from the PCC to disambiguate its situation.  But the timeout
> values prescribed for the two situations are different.
>=20
> My feeling is that the two situations -- waiting for Open and waiting for
> StartTLS -- are not sufficiently distinguishable to allow prescribing two
> different timers.  Of course, this could be cured by proper configuration
> -- giving the same value to StartTLSWait and OpenWait.
>=20
> OTOH, once TLS has been established and the Open messages are awaited,
> both endpoints use OpenWait.  However, this situation is not really the
> same as when the TCP connection has been just been established.  And yet,
> a PCE may be obligated to use the same timer for both situations.
>=20
[[Dhruv Dhody]] You have noted something important, thanks for that.=20

I would like to fix this by making sure that a PCEP speaker that supports P=
CEPS does not start OpenWait timer immediately after TCP session, it uses S=
tartTLSWait timer instead.=20
I would clarify that the OpenWait timer should be started after TLS establi=
shment only.=20

So a PCE that supports connection with TLS only or with/without TLS, it wou=
ld use StartTLSWait timer initially, the OpenWait timer is started once the=
 TLS is established.=20
I also state the StartTLSWait should never be set less than OpenWait timer.=
=20

Please see the diff, I hope these changes should solve the issue. =20

> >> 3.2.  Initiating the TLS Procedures
> ...
> > Do you feel strongly about changing this?
>=20
> Of course, I'm only a reviewer, you needn't defer to my opinion about
> anything.
>=20
> >> Is there a well-defined way for a participant in a TLS connection
> >> start to receive *either* a PCErr message in the clear *or* whatever
> >> comes next in TLS setup -- and know which case has happened?  Is
> >> there a way to use popular modular TLS libraries and have the
> >> application above the library receive such a PCErr message?  I don't
> >> understand TLS nearly well enough to know the answer to this, but it
> >> would probably help implementors if answers were given to these
> questions.
> >
> > [[Dhruv Dhody]] If the TLS handshake is successful, both local and
> > remote parties are aware of this. Same is the case for TLS failure. So
> > receiving an error message in clear will not be a surprise.
> >
> > Also, I checked some of the other documents that describe the use of
> > TLS, but did not find any such handling.
>=20
> OK, I think I understand now; my previous comment was based on a
> misunderstanding.  The correct sequence of operations for PCEPS setup is:
> Both endpoints send a StartTLS to each other.  After that, the initiator
> starts the TLS setup.  Alternatively, the PCC sends StartTLS and the non-
> PCEPS-implementing PCE sends a PCErr.  In either case, the PCC sends a
> StartTLS and then listens for a PCEP message in response.
> In any case, neither endpoint is ever in a situation where it could
> receive either a PCEP message or a TLS setup message.
>=20
> >> 5.  Backward Compatibility
> ...
> > [[Dhruv Dhody]] Updated.
> >
> >    If a PCEP implementation that does not support PCEPS receives a
> >    StartTLS message, ...
>=20
> I think this is a significant improvement, as you can never be too carefu=
l
> about upward-compatibility issues, especially when security is involved.
>=20
> --
>=20
> Concerning the figures:
>=20
>                   +-+-+                 +-+-+
>                   |PCC|                 |PCE|
>                   +-+-+                 +-+-+
>                     |                     | Does not send
>                     |      StartTLS       | StartTLS as
>                     |-------------------->| cannot establish
>                     |                     | TLS
>                     |                     |
>                     |<--------------------| Send Error
>                     |      PCErr          | Error-Value 3/4
>                     |                     |
>=20
>=20
>    Figure 2: Both PCEP Speaker supports PCEPS, But cannot establish TLS
>=20
>=20
>                   +-+-+                 +-+-+
>                   |PCC|                 |PCE|
>                   +-+-+                 +-+-+
>                     |                     |  Does not support
>                     | StartTLS            |  PCEPS and thus
>                     | msg                 |  sends Open
>                     |-------              |
>                     |       \   Open      |
>                     |        \  msg       |
>                     |         \  ---------|
>                     |          \/         |
>                     |          /\         |
>                     |         /  -------->|
>                     |        /            |
>                     |<------              |
>                     |                     |
>                     |<--------------------| Send Error
>                     |       PCErr         | (non-Open message
>                     |                     |  received)
>=20
>=20
>              Figure 3: One PCEP Speaker does not support PCEPS
>=20
> IIUC, in Figure 2 the error has error-value 3/4 and is "Not supported
> object" ... is that right?  I'd think it would be TBA2/4, "Failure,
> connection without TLS possible" (or TBA2/3, depending on circumstances).
> And in Figure 3, the error is 1/1.  It seems like it would be clearer if
> both the number and the text were shown for the error messages in both th=
e
> figures.
>=20
[[Dhruv Dhody]] Error-Value 3/4 meant Error TBA2/3 and Error TBA2/4 as I wa=
s focusing only on the error-values and not on error-type, but I agree this=
 could be confusing and I have updated the figures. Also I have added some =
more figures.=20

> Is there also this flow?
>=20
>                   +-+-+                 +-+-+
>                   |PCC|                 |PCE|
>                   +-+-+                 +-+-+
>                     |                     |  Does not support
>                     | StartTLS            |  PCEPS and thus
>                     | msg                 |  sends Open
>                     |-------              |
>                     |       \   Open      |
>                     |        \  msg       |
>                     |         \  ---------|
>                     |          \/         |
>                     |          /\         |
>                     |         /  -------->|
>                     |        /            |
>                     |<------              |
>                     |                     |
>                     |-------------------->|
>                     |       PCErr         |
>                     |                     |
>=20
> Where the error indicates "Expecting a StartTLS but received an Open"?
> Or is this situation always signaled by the receiver (as in Figure 3)
> rather than the initiator?

 [[Dhruv Dhody]] The text has been added which is generic and works for bot=
h PCC/PCE. =20

I don't think we need a figure for that :)

Thanks again for your reviews.=20

The diff between the last update and this is attached.=20

Working copy, Diff: https://github.com/dhruvdhody-huawei/ietf

Regards,
Dhruv=20
 =20
>=20
> Dale

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Content-Description: draft-ietf-pce-pceps-15.txt
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-pce-pceps-15.txt";
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From nobody Mon Jul 31 09:14:19 2017
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Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-pce-pceps-14: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

One high level comment:

As already mentioned by the gen-art review (Thanks Dale for the detailed
review!), for me the text was for a long time while reading not clear on who
starts the TLS negotiation. In think there is a statement missing that a
speaker/PCE that supports PCEPS and receives a StartTLS message MUST reply with
a StartTLS message and further the PCC MUST initiation the TLS after reception
of a StartTLS message from the PCC.

More minor/editorial comments:

1) There are two cases where the behavior of speakers that do not support PCEPS
is specified, which is a bit non-sensical given that not support probably means
it does not follow this spec:
 OLD
"If the PCEP speaker that does not support PCEPS, receives a StartTLS
   message, it MUST behave according to the existing error mechanism
   described in section 6.2 of [RFC5440] (in case message is received
   prior to an Open message) or section 6.9 of [RFC5440] (for the case
   of reception of unknown message)."
NEW
"If the PCEP speaker that does not support PCEPS, receives a StartTLS
   message, it will behave according to the existing error mechanism
   described in section 6.2 of [RFC5440] (in case message is received
   prior to an Open message) or section 6.9 of [RFC5440] (for the case
   of reception of unknown message)."
and
OLD
"A PCEP speaker that does not support PCEPS or has learned the peer
   willingness to reestablish session without TLS, can send the Open
   message directly, as per [RFC5440]."
NEW
"A PCEP speaker that does not support PCEPS sends the Open message directly, as
per [RFC5440].
 A PCEP speaker that supports PCEPS but has previously already learned the peer
   willingness to reestablish session without TLS, MAY send the Open
   message directly, as per [RFC5440]."

2) As already mentioned in the gen-art review, I also think there should be
more text on what a host should do that uses StartTLS but gets an error back.
This is defined previously in the document but given there is an own section
here, I would just recommend to re-iterate there. In other words please add the
proposed text!

3) Why is this a MUST?
sec 8.1 "A PCE or PCC implementation MUST allow configuring the PCEP security
   via TLS capabilities as described in this document."
 Wouldn't a SHOULD be enough/better? Meaning that when PCEPS is implemented and
 turned on by default, I don't necessarily have to provide a knob to turn it
 off?

4) Also related to the previous point
sec 8.2 "An implementation SHOULD allow the operator to configure the PCEPS
   capability and various TLS related parameters, ..."
Probably this part of sentence should not be normative given this part is
(differently) specified in the previous section.



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Content-Description: draft-ietf-pce-pceps-15.txt
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-pce-pceps-15.txt";
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--_003_23CE718903A838468A8B325B80962F9B8CB964A8blreml501mbb_--



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From: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "cmargaria@juniper.net" <cmargaria@juniper.net>,  "draft-ietf-pce-pceps@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pce-pceps@ietf.org>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>
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To: Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.dhody@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Pce]  =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-i?= =?utf-8?q?etf-pce-pceps-14=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?=
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Great, thanks! Given basically no other Ad have stated a position yet, I =
would actually recommend to submit the update now, so the other AD can =
review the next version.

Mirja

> Am 31.07.2017 um 19:37 schrieb Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.dhody@huawei.com>:
>=20
> Hi Mirja,=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pce [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja K=C3=BChlewi=
nd
>> Sent: 31 July 2017 21:44
>> To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
>> Cc: cmargaria@juniper.net; draft-ietf-pce-pceps@ietf.org; =
pce@ietf.org;
>> pce-chairs@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Pce] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's No Objection on =
draft-ietf-pce-pceps-14:
>> (with COMMENT)
>>=20
>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-pce-pceps-14: No Objection
>>=20
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-pceps/
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> One high level comment:
>>=20
>> As already mentioned by the gen-art review (Thanks Dale for the =
detailed
>> review!), for me the text was for a long time while reading not clear =
on
>> who starts the TLS negotiation. In think there is a statement missing =
that
>> a speaker/PCE that supports PCEPS and receives a StartTLS message =
MUST
>> reply with a StartTLS message and further the PCC MUST initiation the =
TLS
>> after reception of a StartTLS message from the PCC.
>>=20
> [[[Dhruv Dhody]]] As part of handling of Dale's comments, this has =
been clarified.=20
>=20
> I have also added some text at the start of section 3.2 to make this =
super clear.=20
>=20
>> More minor/editorial comments:
>>=20
>> 1) There are two cases where the behavior of speakers that do not =
support
>> PCEPS is specified, which is a bit non-sensical given that not =
support
>> probably means it does not follow this spec:
>> OLD
>> "If the PCEP speaker that does not support PCEPS, receives a StartTLS
>>   message, it MUST behave according to the existing error mechanism
>>   described in section 6.2 of [RFC5440] (in case message is received
>>   prior to an Open message) or section 6.9 of [RFC5440] (for the case
>>   of reception of unknown message)."
>> NEW
>> "If the PCEP speaker that does not support PCEPS, receives a StartTLS
>>   message, it will behave according to the existing error mechanism
>>   described in section 6.2 of [RFC5440] (in case message is received
>>   prior to an Open message) or section 6.9 of [RFC5440] (for the case
>>   of reception of unknown message)."
>=20
> [[[Dhruv Dhody]]] Ack, was updated as part of Gen-ART.=20
>=20
>> and
>> OLD
>> "A PCEP speaker that does not support PCEPS or has learned the peer
>>   willingness to reestablish session without TLS, can send the Open
>>   message directly, as per [RFC5440]."
>> NEW
>> "A PCEP speaker that does not support PCEPS sends the Open message
>> directly, as per [RFC5440].
>> A PCEP speaker that supports PCEPS but has previously already learned =
the
>> peer
>>   willingness to reestablish session without TLS, MAY send the Open
>>   message directly, as per [RFC5440]."
>>=20
> [[[Dhruv Dhody]]] Ack, updated.=20
>=20
>> 2) As already mentioned in the gen-art review, I also think there =
should
>> be more text on what a host should do that uses StartTLS but gets an =
error
>> back.
>> This is defined previously in the document but given there is an own
>> section here, I would just recommend to re-iterate there. In other =
words
>> please add the proposed text!
> [[[Dhruv Dhody]]] Ack, updated.
>>=20
>> 3) Why is this a MUST?
>> sec 8.1 "A PCE or PCC implementation MUST allow configuring the PCEP
>> security
>>   via TLS capabilities as described in this document."
>> Wouldn't a SHOULD be enough/better? Meaning that when PCEPS is
>> implemented and  turned on by default, I don't necessarily have to =
provide
>> a knob to turn it  off?
> [[[Dhruv Dhody]]] Agree, updated.
>>=20
>> 4) Also related to the previous point
>> sec 8.2 "An implementation SHOULD allow the operator to configure the
>> PCEPS
>>   capability and various TLS related parameters, ..."
>> Probably this part of sentence should not be normative given this =
part is
>> (differently) specified in the previous section.
>>=20
> [[[Dhruv Dhody]]] Ack, updated.
>=20
> Thanks Again!=20
>=20
> The working copy and diff (handling gen-ART and your comments) are =
attached.=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Dhruv
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pce mailing list
>> Pce@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pce
> <draft-ietf-pce-pceps-15.txt><Diff_ draft-ietf-pce-pceps-14.txt - =
draft-ietf-pce-pceps-15.txt.html>


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Path Computation Element WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Secure Transport for PCEP
        Authors         : Diego R. Lopez
                          Oscar Gonzalez de Dios
                          Qin Wu
                          Dhruv Dhody
	Filename        : draft-ietf-pce-pceps-15.txt
	Pages           : 23
	Date            : 2017-07-31

Abstract:
   The Path Computation Element Communication Protocol (PCEP) defines
   the mechanisms for the communication between a Path Computation
   Client (PCC) and a Path Computation Element (PCE), or among PCEs.
   This document describe the usage of Transport Layer Security (TLS) to
   enhance PCEP security, hence the PCEPS acronym proposed for it.  The
   additional security mechanisms are provided by the transport protocol
   supporting PCEP, and therefore they do not affect the flexibility and
   extensibility of PCEP.

   This document updates RFC 5440 regarding the PCEP initialization
   phase specification.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-pceps/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pceps-15
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-pce-pceps-15

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-pce-pceps-15


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

