
From menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Apr  1 01:35:01 2011
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From: Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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Hi all,

to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a slight 
rewording:

Handling of ECN traffic
* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a 
PCN-compatible DSCP
     - no action needed
* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a 
PCN-compatible DSCP
     - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible DSCP in 
the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
     - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and egress 
re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in the 
outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of ECN for 
this traffic within the PCN domain.
* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
     - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field of PCN 
packets which disables end-to-end ECN
     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible 
DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros ECN-field before 
decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has 
indicated to receive PCN marks
     - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP but the 
egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation according to 
RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) so that 
the nonce is modified.

Another two questions
* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is subject to 
PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems to be a 
similar issue.
* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP interpreted 
outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics? Have we stated that 
somewhere. Do we need to state it?

Best wishes,

     Michael

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Fri Apr  1 01:42:20 2011
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Cc: "pcn@ietf.org" <pcn@ietf.org>
Subject: [PCN] additional issue with comments on signaling requirements draft
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Hi all

I have omitted to mention the following additional issue with one of the
comments of Michael. The issue is related to the new requirement
proposed by Michael on Destination address:

"Destination Address:
The signaling message MUST be addressed to the decision point(s)."

If this requirement is included then piggybacking the content on an
end-to-end signaling protocol is not anymore possible.

Best regards,
Georgios


On 3/29/2011, "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl> wrote:

>Hi Michael, Hi all
>
>I have read the comments of Michael on the signaling drafts. As I already
>mentioned I am happy with most of the comments but I have problems with
>the following changes Michael proposed on the signaling requirements
>draft, which I have denoted as issues:
>
>
>-----------------------------------
>
>Issue 1 (comment Michael): For the following bullet, should we say the
>IPv4 or IPv6 address
>of the nodes to be more specific?
>o identifiers of the PCN-ingress-node and the PCN-egress-node that
>specify the ingress-egress-aggregate to which the report refers,
>
>Georgios: Is it necessary to be that specific?
>
>--------------------
>
>
>Issue 2 (comment Michael): Regarding flow identifiers, the following is
>not needed:
>   o IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>   o IP address of PCN-egress-node
>
>Georgios: If you do not include the above addresses then an aggregated
>flow will not be able to be identified!
>
>
>-----------------------
>
>
>Issue 3  (comment Michael): requirement "2.3.2 Local information"
>exchange does not need
>to be explicitly stated.
>
>Georgios: It is very important, because if you do not state that then a
>signaling protocol may carry this content up to the end (when they are
>e.g. piggibacked), while it
>should be used only locally.
>So it is a signaling requirement, which is by the way also used in other
>signaling requirements RFCs.
>
>
>-------------
>
>
>Issue 4 (comment Michael): Remove section "2.3.3 Carry identification of
>PCN edge nodes=93
>since it is part of the content.
>
>Georgios: I do not understand your comment. The identification of the PCN
>edge nodes might not be a part of the content.
>The signaling protocol must ensure that the identification of the PCN
>edge nodes is a part of the message.
>Therefore this requirement must be there.
>
>
>----------------
>
>Issue 5  (comment Michael): Remove section "2.3.4 Carry identification of
>ingress-egress-aggregates=93 since it is a part of the content.
>
>Georgios: I do not understand your comment. The identification of the
>ingress-egress-aggregate might not be a part of the content.
>The signaling protocol must ensure that the identification of the the
>ingress-egress-aggregate is a part of the message.
>Therefore this requirement must be there.
>
>----------------------
>
>Issue 6  (comment Michael): Add the following text to =93Signaling load=94
>requirement:
>We give two examples that may help to achieve that goal:
>o Piggy-backing the reports by the PCN-egress-nodes to the decision
>point(s) onto other signaling messages that are already in place
>o Reducing the amount of reports to be sent by optional report
>suppression.
>
>Georgios: Is this text required?
>
>------------------
>
>Issue 7  (comment Michael): Removed the following text from the Security
>requirement:
>As PCN reports are sent regularly, additional reliability mechanisms are
>not needed. This also holds in the presence of optional report
>suppression, as reports are sent periodically if actions by the decision
>point(s) are needed.
>PCN-signaling messages MUST NOT leak out of the PCN-domain. This can be
>easily accomplished, since messages are sent to the PCN-boundary-node's
>address;
>PCN-boundary-nodes MUST validate the signaling messages, to avoid that
>they come from an attacker. Considering that all PCN-nodes are trusted,
>see [RFC5559], this requirement could be easily fulfilled by verifying
>whether a message arrives on an interface internal to the PCN-domain.
>
>Georgios: This text was provided by Phil, which I agree with.
>
>-----------------------------
>
>Issue 8 (comment Michael): Removed completely old section 3 and included
>new sections.
>
>--------------------
>
>3. Signaling Requirements for Messages between Decision Point(s) and
>PCN-Ingress-Nodes
>
>   The decision point may require the PCN-sent-rate for a specific
>ingress-egress-aggregate and request it from the corresponding
>PCN-ingress-node. The PCN-ingress-node measures the rate of admitted PCN
>traffic and reports it to the requesting decision point. Signaling for
>that purpose is needed only if decision point and PCN-ingress-node are
>not collocated. In the following, the contents of these request and
>report messages and the requirements for the signaling protocols that
>carry them are described.
>
>3.1 Contents of Requests by the Decision Point(s)
>
>The request contains
>o an indication that the PCN-sent-rate is requested
>o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the PCN-egress-node that
>determine the ingress-egress-aggregate for which the PCN-sent-rate is
>requested
>o the identifier of the decision point that requests the PCN-sent-rate
>
>3.2 Contents of Reports by the Decision Point(s)
>
>The report contains
>o an indication that the reported data is a PCN-sent-rate
>o the PCN-sent-rate in octets/second
>o the identifiers of the PCN-ingress-node and the PCN-egress-node that
>determine the ingress-egress-aggregate to which the measured
>PCN-sent-rate refers
>
>3.3 Requirements for the Signaling Protocol that Carries Data between the
>Decision Point(s) and PCN-Ingress-Nodes
>
>The request messages MUST be addressed to the PCN-ingress-nodes.
>The report messages MUST be addressed to the decision point(s).
>
>The requests by the decision points and the reports by the
>PCN-ingress-nodes are sent only when flow termination is needed. As flow
>termination is an urgent action, it is important that the messages
>arrive quickly and reliably. This implies that these messages SHOULD be
>sent
>o with high priority
>o in a reliably fashion
>
>-----------------
>
>Georgios: I found the proposed section 3.3 (by Micheal) very abstract and
>very unclear! One cannot clearly identify the signaling requirements,
>since you combined them all in a couple of sentences! Therefore, it is
>needed that similar 3.3 subsections are used as the ones in Section 2.2.
>
>
>
>Best regards,
>Georgios
>_______________________________________________
>PCN mailing list
>PCN@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Apr  1 01:45:56 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] additional issue with comments on signaling requirements draft
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Am 01.04.2011 10:43, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
> Hi all
>
> I have omitted to mention the following additional issue with one of th=
e
> comments of Michael. The issue is related to the new requirement
> proposed by Michael on Destination address:
>
> "Destination Address:
> The signaling message MUST be addressed to the decision point(s)."
>
> If this requirement is included then piggybacking the content on an
> end-to-end signaling protocol is not anymore possible.

To avoid long discussions during the WG meeting: I have no problem with=20
reformulating it to "The signaling message MUST reach the decision=20
point(s). ". This is indeed a rather trivial requirement that we can=20
possibly skip. It was a left-over from the previous version.

Best wishes,

Michael

> Best regards,
> Georgios
>
>
> On 3/29/2011, "Georgios Karagiannis"<karagian@cs.utwente.nl>  wrote:
>
>> Hi Michael, Hi all
>>
>> I have read the comments of Michael on the signaling drafts. As I alre=
ady
>> mentioned I am happy with most of the comments but I have problems wit=
h
>> the following changes Michael proposed on the signaling requirements
>> draft, which I have denoted as issues:
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>>
>> Issue 1 (comment Michael): For the following bullet, should we say the
>> IPv4 or IPv6 address
>> of the nodes to be more specific?
>> o identifiers of the PCN-ingress-node and the PCN-egress-node that
>> specify the ingress-egress-aggregate to which the report refers,
>>
>> Georgios: Is it necessary to be that specific?
>>
>> --------------------
>>
>>
>> Issue 2 (comment Michael): Regarding flow identifiers, the following i=
s
>> not needed:
>>    o IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>>    o IP address of PCN-egress-node
>>
>> Georgios: If you do not include the above addresses then an aggregated
>> flow will not be able to be identified!
>>
>>
>> -----------------------
>>
>>
>> Issue 3  (comment Michael): requirement "2.3.2 Local information"
>> exchange does not need
>> to be explicitly stated.
>>
>> Georgios: It is very important, because if you do not state that then =
a
>> signaling protocol may carry this content up to the end (when they are
>> e.g. piggibacked), while it
>> should be used only locally.
>> So it is a signaling requirement, which is by the way also used in oth=
er
>> signaling requirements RFCs.
>>
>>
>> -------------
>>
>>
>> Issue 4 (comment Michael): Remove section "2.3.3 Carry identification =
of
>> PCN edge nodes=93
>> since it is part of the content.
>>
>> Georgios: I do not understand your comment. The identification of the =
PCN
>> edge nodes might not be a part of the content.
>> The signaling protocol must ensure that the identification of the PCN
>> edge nodes is a part of the message.
>> Therefore this requirement must be there.
>>
>>
>> ----------------
>>
>> Issue 5  (comment Michael): Remove section "2.3.4 Carry identification=
 of
>> ingress-egress-aggregates=93 since it is a part of the content.
>>
>> Georgios: I do not understand your comment. The identification of the
>> ingress-egress-aggregate might not be a part of the content.
>> The signaling protocol must ensure that the identification of the the
>> ingress-egress-aggregate is a part of the message.
>> Therefore this requirement must be there.
>>
>> ----------------------
>>
>> Issue 6  (comment Michael): Add the following text to =93Signaling loa=
d=94
>> requirement:
>> We give two examples that may help to achieve that goal:
>> o Piggy-backing the reports by the PCN-egress-nodes to the decision
>> point(s) onto other signaling messages that are already in place
>> o Reducing the amount of reports to be sent by optional report
>> suppression.
>>
>> Georgios: Is this text required?
>>
>> ------------------
>>
>> Issue 7  (comment Michael): Removed the following text from the Securi=
ty
>> requirement:
>> As PCN reports are sent regularly, additional reliability mechanisms a=
re
>> not needed. This also holds in the presence of optional report
>> suppression, as reports are sent periodically if actions by the decisi=
on
>> point(s) are needed.
>> PCN-signaling messages MUST NOT leak out of the PCN-domain. This can b=
e
>> easily accomplished, since messages are sent to the PCN-boundary-node'=
s
>> address;
>> PCN-boundary-nodes MUST validate the signaling messages, to avoid that
>> they come from an attacker. Considering that all PCN-nodes are trusted=
,
>> see [RFC5559], this requirement could be easily fulfilled by verifying
>> whether a message arrives on an interface internal to the PCN-domain.
>>
>> Georgios: This text was provided by Phil, which I agree with.
>>
>> -----------------------------
>>
>> Issue 8 (comment Michael): Removed completely old section 3 and includ=
ed
>> new sections.
>>
>> --------------------
>>
>> 3. Signaling Requirements for Messages between Decision Point(s) and
>> PCN-Ingress-Nodes
>>
>>    The decision point may require the PCN-sent-rate for a specific
>> ingress-egress-aggregate and request it from the corresponding
>> PCN-ingress-node. The PCN-ingress-node measures the rate of admitted P=
CN
>> traffic and reports it to the requesting decision point. Signaling for
>> that purpose is needed only if decision point and PCN-ingress-node are
>> not collocated. In the following, the contents of these request and
>> report messages and the requirements for the signaling protocols that
>> carry them are described.
>>
>> 3.1 Contents of Requests by the Decision Point(s)
>>
>> The request contains
>> o an indication that the PCN-sent-rate is requested
>> o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the PCN-egress-node that
>> determine the ingress-egress-aggregate for which the PCN-sent-rate is
>> requested
>> o the identifier of the decision point that requests the PCN-sent-rate
>>
>> 3.2 Contents of Reports by the Decision Point(s)
>>
>> The report contains
>> o an indication that the reported data is a PCN-sent-rate
>> o the PCN-sent-rate in octets/second
>> o the identifiers of the PCN-ingress-node and the PCN-egress-node that
>> determine the ingress-egress-aggregate to which the measured
>> PCN-sent-rate refers
>>
>> 3.3 Requirements for the Signaling Protocol that Carries Data between =
the
>> Decision Point(s) and PCN-Ingress-Nodes
>>
>> The request messages MUST be addressed to the PCN-ingress-nodes.
>> The report messages MUST be addressed to the decision point(s).
>>
>> The requests by the decision points and the reports by the
>> PCN-ingress-nodes are sent only when flow termination is needed. As fl=
ow
>> termination is an urgent action, it is important that the messages
>> arrive quickly and reliably. This implies that these messages SHOULD b=
e
>> sent
>> o with high priority
>> o in a reliably fashion
>>
>> -----------------
>>
>> Georgios: I found the proposed section 3.3 (by Micheal) very abstract =
and
>> very unclear! One cannot clearly identify the signaling requirements,
>> since you combined them all in a couple of sentences! Therefore, it is
>> needed that similar 3.3 subsections are used as the ones in Section 2.=
2.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Georgios
>> _______________________________________________
>> PCN mailing list
>> PCN@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

--=20
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


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Steve,

If we make 3-in-1 standards track, we will be using the EXP codepoint 
of baseline (5696) in a standards track doc, therefore, I assume we 
have to say 3-in-1 updates 5696.

This will have the effect of precluding anyone using EXP for other 
experiments.

(Except for local use,.. I guess and operator could specify it wants 
kit that complies with 5696 and not 3-in-1.)

But for interop, 3-in-1 would be the "one true way".

Is this what the wg wants?


Bob



________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design  


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--=====================_238725348==.ALT
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Michael,

At 23:44 21/03/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
>Hi Bob,
>
>Am 21.03.2011 22:39, schrieb Bob Briscoe:
>>Michael,
>>
>>At 16:50 21/03/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
>>>Hi Bob,
>>>
>>>1)
>>>
>>>When reading the encoding comparison draft, I found some useful 
>>>information that should be added to the 3-in-1-draft after Section 
>>>3.2 in form of an own section to argue that ETM must be more 
>>>severe than ThM. I propose the following text which may also be 
>>>added in different words:
>>>
>>>Requirements Imposed by New Tunneling Rules [RFC6040]
>>>
>>>RFC6040 provides for new tunneling rules so that the codepoint of 
>>>an outer header ECN field are propagated correctly into the inner 
>>>header ECN field upon decapsulation. The assumption is that a 
>>>packet was re-marked to ECT(1) or to CE. Upon encapsulation within 
>>>a PCN domain, the codepoint of the inner header ECN field is 
>>>copied to the outer header PCN field using the normal mode. Upon 
>>>decapsulation, a CE codepoint in the outer header overwrites a 
>>>ECT(1) codepoint in the inner header, but not vice-versa. Hence, 
>>>re-marking to CE always survives while re-marking to ECT(1) 
>>>survives only if the inner packet header is not CE. Hence, CE must 
>>>be a more severe marking than ECT(1) so that outer header markings 
>>>can always propagated to the inner header upon decapsulation.
>>
>>Yes. And I'm sure we can write this more succinctly. It should go 
>>at the end of S.3.1. Here's a suggestion:
>>
>>OLD TEXT:
>>"
>>Therefore, a fourth PCN marking state indicating that a packet is 
>>marked by both markers is not needed.  However a fourth codepoint 
>>is required to indicate packets that are not PCN-capable (the 
>>not-PCN codepoint).
>>
>>In all current PCN edge behaviors that use two marking schemes 
>>[RFC5559], [I-D.ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour], excess-traffic-marking 
>>is configured with a larger reference rate than threshold-marking. 
>>We take this as a rule and define excess-traffic-marked as a more 
>>severe PCN-mark than threshold-marked.
>>
>>"
>>
>>NEW TEXT:This specification defines
>>excess-traffic-marked as a more
>>severe PCN-mark than threshold-marked. Choosing a severity ranking avoids
>>the need for a fourth codepoint to indicate that a packet is marked by
>>both markers. However a fourth codepoint is required to indicate packets
>>that are not PCN-capable (the not-PCN codepoint).
>>
>>This severity ordering was chosen to be compatible with other existing
>>documents:
>>
>>  * In all current PCN edge behaviors that use two marking schemes
>>    [RFC5559], [I-D.ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour],
>>excess-traffic-marking
>>    is configured with a larger reference rate than
>>threshold-marking.
>>
>>
>>  * In the specification that defines propagation of the ECN field 
>> through tunnel endpoints [RFC6040], CE is defined as more severe 
>> than ECT(1) and ECT(1) is defined as the same or greater severity than ECT(0).
>
>This is probably better than before, but does not say why the 
>ECT(1)=ETM and CE=ThM wouldn't work. If you had mentioned that 
>argument to me many months ago, I had understood much faster that 
>the severity order is not just an arbitrary constraint but a 
>necessity. Therefore, I find it useful explaining this. We could 
>have saved lots of discussion and it is unfortunate if that 
>reasoning gets lost. But if you are certain that his is not 
>appropriate/useful for the draft, I accept.

OK. Who has the editing token?

>>>2)
>>>
>>>Do we have that somewhere in the standards?
>>>
>>>    The re-use of the ECN field for PCN encoding has some impact on the
>>>    deployment of PCN.  First, routers within a PCN domain must not apply
>>>    ECN re-marking when the ECN field has PCN semantics.
>>
>>RFC3168 (ECN marking) deliberately leaves the precise definition of 
>>the AQM algorithm open. Therefore there's no reason why an ECN AQM 
>>algorithm couldn't be similar to a PCN algorithm. Therefore, we 
>>shouldn't say that ECN AQM cannot be used as the algo for 
>>PCN-enabled packets, because an ECN algo might already be identical 
>>to a PCN algo.
>>
>>Also, one of the reasons for trying to keep PCN encoding similar to 
>>ECN was so that ECN routers could be used reasonably safely in a 
>>PCN domain (e.g. if they couldn't do PCN, or if they were 
>>accidentally deployed without configuring them to recognise the 
>>Diffserv codepoint that triggered PCN treatment).
>
>This is just a citation from the encoding comparison draft. If you 
>find this is wrong, you need to update that draft.

Whoever has the editing token for encoding comparison, please ack 
that this is noted.

>>>Second, before
>>>    a PCN packet leaves the PCN domain, the egress nodes must either (A)
>>>    reset the ECN field of the packet to the contents it had when
>>>    entering the PCN domain or (B) reset its ECN field to not-ECT.
>>>    According to Section 3.3.3, tunneling ECN traffic through a PCN
>>>    domain may help to implement (A).  When (B) applies, CE-marked
>>>    packets must never become PCN packets within a PCN domain as the
>>>    egress node resets their ECN field to not-ECT.  The ingress node may
>>>    drop such traffic instead.
>>
>>S.4.2 of the baseline encoding [RFC5696] already says:
>>
>>"
>>A PCN-egress-node SHOULD set the not-PCN (00) codepoint on all 
>>packets it forwards out of the PCN-domain.  The only exception to 
>>this is if the PCN-egress-node is certain that revealing other 
>>codepoints outside the PCN-domain won't contravene the guidance 
>>given in [RFC4774].  For instance, if the PCN-ingress-node has 
>>explicitly informed the PCN-egress-node that this flow is 
>>ECN-capable, then it might be safe to expose other codepoints.
>>
>>"
>>>I already wrote an email that handling of ECN traffic should be 
>>>discussed in the encoding draft. Do we also have the information 
>>>somewhere that CE packets need to be dropped when the 
>>>PCN-egress-node cannot restore the CE codepoint? This is important 
>>>and should be added either to the encoding drafts or to the edge 
>>>behavior drafts. If this is added to the encoding drafts, we need 
>>>an update of RFC5696 unless the information is already there.
>>
>>See Appx B of the Baseline Encoding [RFC5696], which gives four 
>>potential ways for the egress to avoid zeroing an ECN field that 
>>was originally CE at the ingress.
>
>Good that we have that there! Something along these lines should 
>also be mentioned in the 3-in-1 encoding draft.

I've suggested that we use the classification you sent while 
reviewing the 3-in-1 slides (off list) of all the possible 
combinations of ECN, PCN etc and give precise text on what we 
recommend in each case for e2e ECN preservation.

>>>3)
>>>
>>>Why have you chosen the name "compatibility mode" in RFC6040?
>>
>>It is a mode of the tunnel ingress to allow it to be compatible 
>>with a tunnel egress compliant with earlier tunnelling specs. I 
>>suppose strictly it should have been backward-compatibility mode, 
>>but it was shorter.
>
>Do you mean that the compatibility mode is backward-compatible to 
>the previous limited functionality mode?

Quoting RFC6040, S4.3:
"
    To comply with this specification, a tunnel ingress MUST at least
    implement normal mode.  Unless it will never be used with legacy
    tunnel egress nodes (RFC 2003, RFC 2401, or RFC 2481 or the limited
    functionality mode of RFC 3168), an ingress MUST also implement
    compatibility mode for backward compatibility with tunnel egresses
    that do not propagate explicit congestion notifications [RFC4774].
"

IOW, it's for backward-compatibility with all those previous RFCs in 
the parenthesis, not just limited functionality mode of 3168.

Cheers


Bob

>Best wishes,
>
>     Michael
>
>
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>>Bob
>>
>>
>>
>>>Best wishes,
>>>
>>>     Michael
>>>
>>>--
>>>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>>>University of Tuebingen
>>>Faculty of Science
>>>Department of Computer Science
>>>Chair of Communication Networks
>>>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>>>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>>>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>>>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>>>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>>
>>________________________________________________________________
>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
>
>
>--
>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>University of Tuebingen
>Faculty of Science
>Department of Computer Science
>Chair of Communication Networks
>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
><mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de

________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design 
--=====================_238725348==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Michael,<br><br>
At 23:44 21/03/2011, Michael Menth wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Hi Bob,<br>
<br>
Am 21.03.2011 22:39, schrieb Bob Briscoe: <br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Michael,<br><br>
At 16:50 21/03/2011, Michael Menth wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Hi Bob,<br><br>
1)<br><br>
When reading the encoding comparison draft, I found some useful
information that should be added to the 3-in-1-draft after Section 3.2 in
form of an own section to argue that ETM must be more severe than ThM. I
propose the following text which may also be added in different
words:<br><br>
Requirements Imposed by New Tunneling Rules [RFC6040]<br><br>
RFC6040 provides for new tunneling rules so that the codepoint of an
outer header ECN field are propagated correctly into the inner header ECN
field upon decapsulation. The assumption is that a packet was re-marked
to ECT(1) or to CE. Upon encapsulation within a PCN domain, the codepoint
of the inner header ECN field is copied to the outer header PCN field
using the normal mode. Upon decapsulation, a CE codepoint in the outer
header overwrites a ECT(1) codepoint in the inner header, but not
vice-versa. Hence, re-marking to CE always survives while re-marking to
ECT(1) survives only if the inner packet header is not CE. Hence, CE must
be a more severe marking than ECT(1) so that outer header markings can
always propagated to the inner header upon
decapsulation.</blockquote><br>
Yes. And I'm sure we can write this more succinctly. It should go at the
end of S.3.1. Here's a suggestion:<br><br>
OLD TEXT:<br>
&quot;&nbsp; <br>
<pre>Therefore, a fourth PCN marking state indicating that a packet is
marked by both markers is not needed.&nbsp; However a fourth codepoint is
required to indicate packets that are not PCN-capable (the not-PCN
codepoint).

In all current PCN edge behaviors that use two marking schemes [RFC5559],
[I-D.ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour], excess-traffic-marking is configured
with a larger reference rate than threshold-marking. We take this as a
rule and define excess-traffic-marked as a more severe PCN-mark than
threshold-marked.

</pre>&quot; <br><br>
NEW TEXT:This specification defines <br>
<pre>excess-traffic-marked as a more
severe PCN-mark than threshold-marked. Choosing a severity ranking
avoids
the need for a fourth codepoint to indicate that a packet is marked by
both markers. However a fourth codepoint is required to indicate packets
that are not PCN-capable (the not-PCN codepoint).

This severity ordering was chosen to be compatible with other existing
documents:

&nbsp;* In all current PCN edge behaviors that use two marking schemes
&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC5559], [I-D.ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour],
excess-traffic-marking
&nbsp;&nbsp; is configured with a larger reference rate than
threshold-marking.

</pre><br>
&nbsp;* In the specification that defines propagation of the ECN field
through tunnel endpoints [RFC6040], CE is defined as more severe than
ECT(1) and ECT(1) is defined as the same or greater severity than
ECT(0).</blockquote><br>
This is probably better than before, but does not say why the ECT(1)=ETM
and CE=ThM wouldn't work. If you had mentioned that argument to me many
months ago, I had understood much faster that the severity order is not
just an arbitrary constraint but a necessity. Therefore, I find it useful
explaining this. We could have saved lots of discussion and it is
unfortunate if that reasoning gets lost. But if you are certain that his
is not appropriate/useful for the draft, I accept.</blockquote><br>
OK. Who has the editing token?<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">2)<br><br>
Do we have that somewhere in the standards?<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; The re-use of the ECN field for PCN encoding has some impact
on the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; deployment of PCN.&nbsp; First, routers within a PCN domain
must not apply<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; ECN re-marking when the ECN field has PCN semantics.&nbsp;
</blockquote><br>
RFC3168 (ECN marking) deliberately leaves the precise definition of the
AQM algorithm open. Therefore there's no reason why an ECN AQM algorithm
couldn't be similar to a PCN algorithm. Therefore, we shouldn't say that
ECN AQM cannot be used as the algo for PCN-enabled packets, because an
ECN algo might already be identical to a PCN algo.<br><br>
Also, one of the reasons for trying to keep PCN encoding similar to ECN
was so that ECN routers could be used reasonably safely in a PCN domain
(e.g. if they couldn't do PCN, or if they were accidentally deployed
without configuring them to recognise the Diffserv codepoint that
triggered PCN treatment).</blockquote><br>
This is just a citation from the encoding comparison draft. If you find
this is wrong, you need to update that draft.<br>
</blockquote><br>
Whoever has the editing token for encoding comparison, please ack that
this is noted.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Second, before<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; a PCN packet leaves the PCN domain, the egress nodes must
either (A)<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; reset the ECN field of the packet to the contents it had
when<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; entering the PCN domain or (B) reset its ECN field to
not-ECT.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; According to Section 3.3.3, tunneling ECN traffic through a
PCN<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; domain may help to implement (A).&nbsp; When (B) applies,
CE-marked<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; packets must never become PCN packets within a PCN domain as
the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; egress node resets their ECN field to not-ECT.&nbsp; The
ingress node may<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; drop such traffic instead.</blockquote><br>
S.4.2 of the baseline encoding [RFC5696] already says:<br><br>
&quot; <br>
<pre>A PCN-egress-node SHOULD set the not-PCN (00) codepoint on all
packets it forwards out of the PCN-domain.&nbsp; The only exception to
this is if the PCN-egress-node is certain that revealing other codepoints
outside the PCN-domain won't contravene the guidance given in
[RFC4774].&nbsp; For instance, if the PCN-ingress-node has explicitly
informed the PCN-egress-node that this flow is ECN-capable, then it might
be safe to expose other codepoints.

</pre>&quot;<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">I already wrote an email that
handling of ECN traffic should be discussed in the encoding draft. Do we
also have the information somewhere that CE packets need to be dropped
when the PCN-egress-node cannot restore the CE codepoint? This is
important and should be added either to the encoding drafts or to the
edge behavior drafts. If this is added to the encoding drafts, we need an
update of RFC5696 unless the information is already
there.</blockquote><br>
See Appx B of the Baseline Encoding [RFC5696], which gives four potential
ways for the egress to avoid zeroing an ECN field that was originally CE
at the ingress.</blockquote><br>
Good that we have that there! Something along these lines should also be
mentioned in the 3-in-1 encoding draft.</blockquote><br>
I've suggested that we use the classification you sent while reviewing
the 3-in-1 slides (off list) of all the possible combinations of ECN, PCN
etc and give precise text on what we recommend in each case for e2e ECN
preservation.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">3)<br><br>
Why have you chosen the name &quot;compatibility mode&quot; in
RFC6040?</blockquote><br>
It is a mode of the tunnel ingress to allow it to be compatible with a
tunnel egress compliant with earlier tunnelling specs. I suppose strictly
it should have been backward-compatibility mode, but it was
shorter.</blockquote><br>
Do you mean that the compatibility mode is backward-compatible to the
previous limited functionality mode?</blockquote><br>
Quoting RFC6040, S4.3:<br>
&quot;<br>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; To comply with this specification, a tunnel ingress
MUST at least
&nbsp;&nbsp; implement normal mode.&nbsp; Unless it will never be used
with legacy
&nbsp;&nbsp; tunnel egress nodes (RFC 2003, RFC 2401, or RFC 2481 or the
limited
&nbsp;&nbsp; functionality mode of RFC 3168), an ingress MUST also
implement
&nbsp;&nbsp; compatibility mode for backward compatibility with tunnel
egresses
&nbsp;&nbsp; that do not propagate explicit congestion notifications
[RFC4774].
</pre>&quot;<br><br>
IOW, it's for backward-compatibility with all those previous RFCs in the
parenthesis, not just limited functionality mode of 3168.<br><br>
Cheers<br><br>
<br>
Bob<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Best wishes,<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Michael<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><br>
Cheers<br><br>
<br><br>
Bob<br><br>
<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Best wishes,<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Michael<br><br>
-- <br>
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth<br>
University of Tuebingen<br>
Faculty of Science<br>
Department of Computer Science<br>
Chair of Communication Networks<br>
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany<br>
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505<br>
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220<br>
<a href="mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de" eudora="autourl">
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de</a><br>
<a href="http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/" eudora="autourl">
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de</a></blockquote><br>
________________________________________________________________<br>
Bob
Briscoe,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
BT Innovate &amp; Design</blockquote><br><br>
<pre>-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
<a href="mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de">mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de</a>
<a href="http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/" eudora="autourl">
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de</a>
</pre></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
________________________________________________________________<br>
Bob
Briscoe,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
BT Innovate &amp; Design</body>
</html>

--=====================_238725348==.ALT--


From bob.briscoe@bt.com  Fri Apr  1 02:15:16 2011
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Cc: PCN IETF list <pcn@ietf.org>, Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Subject: [PCN] Slides for pcn-3-in-1-encoding
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Scott/Steve,

Slides for last item in PCN session this afternoon:
<http://www.bobbriscoe.net/present.html#1103pcn-enc-3-in-1>

Sorry they're late.


Bob



________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design 


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Fri Apr  1 02:59:58 2011
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Cc: "pcn@ietf.org" <pcn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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Hi Michael

If we need to define the actions, then these actions should be in line
with Section 3.6 of RFC5559:
-----------------
3.6.  Backwards Compatibility

   PCN specifies semantics for the ECN field that differ from the
   default semantics of [RFC3168].  A particular PCN encoding scheme
   needs to describe how it meets the guidelines of BCP 124 [RFC4774]
   for specifying alternative semantics for the ECN field.  In summary,
   the approach is to:

   o  use a DSCP to allow PCN-nodes to distinguish PCN-traffic that uses
      the alternative ECN semantics;

   o  define these semantics for use within a controlled region, the
      PCN-domain;

   o  take appropriate action if ECN-capable, non-PCN-traffic arrives at
      a PCN-ingress-node with the DSCP used by PCN.

   For the baseline encoding [Moncaster09-1], the "appropriate action"
   is to block ECN-capable traffic that uses the same DSCP as PCN from
   entering the PCN-domain directly.  "Blocking" means it is dropped or
   downgraded to a lower-priority behaviour aggregate, or alternatively
   such traffic may be tunnelled through the PCN-domain.  The reason
   that "appropriate action" is needed is that the PCN-egress-node
   clears the ECN field to 00.

   Extended encoding schemes may need to take different "appropriate
   action".
----------------

Can you please emphasize how the proposed actions satsifiy the above
requirements taken from Section 3.6 of RFC5559?

Best regards,
Georgios

On 4/1/2011, "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a slight
>rewording:
>
>Handling of ECN traffic
>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
>PCN-compatible DSCP
>     - no action needed
>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
>PCN-compatible DSCP
>     - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible DSCP in
>the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
>     - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and egress
>re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
>     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in the
>outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of ECN for
>this traffic within the PCN domain.
>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
>     - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field of PCN
>packets which disables end-to-end ECN
>     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible
>DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros ECN-field before
>decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
>indicated to receive PCN marks
>     - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP but the
>egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation according to
>RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) so that
>the nonce is modified.
>
>Another two questions
>* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is subject to
>PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems to be a
>similar issue.
>* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP interpreted
>outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics? Have we stated that
>somewhere. Do we need to state it?
>
>Best wishes,
>
>     Michael
>
>--
>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>University of Tuebingen
>Faculty of Science
>Department of Computer Science
>Chair of Communication Networks
>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>
>_______________________________________________
>PCN mailing list
>PCN@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From toby@moncaster.com  Fri Apr  1 03:23:30 2011
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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
To: "'Bob Briscoe'" <bob.briscoe@bt.com>, "'Steven Blake'" <slblake@petri-meat.com>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-04 as Proposed Standard
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The only difference is that we are fixing on a meaning for the EXP
codepoint. In RFC5696 we specified that 

"   o  The 01 Experimental codepoint in the ECN field MAY mean PCN-marked
      or it MAY carry some other meaning.  However, any experimental
      scheme MUST define its meaning in the context of that experiment.

   o  If both the 01 and 11 codepoints are being used to indicate PCN-
      marked, then the 11 codepoint MUST be taken to be the more severe
      marking and the choice of which meter sets which mark MUST be
      defined."

So the change is that we are defining EXP as only being able to indicate
PCN-marked. We already had 11 being a more severe marking so that doesn't
create any conflict.

I would be keen to be able to preserve a coding that allows for a single
marking scheme as that is the easiest version of PCN. Is it possible to have
a standards track extension to a standard without updating the original
standard? After all we have already written this document to be compliant
with RFC5696.

If we are going to have 3-in-1 update RFC5696 that might mean we have to put
all the extra stuff from there into this document (rather more than minor
changes in other words).

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Bob Briscoe
> Sent: 01 April 2011 09:27
> To: 'Steven Blake'
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-04 as
> Proposed Standard
> 
> Steve,
> 
> If we make 3-in-1 standards track, we will be using the EXP codepoint
> of baseline (5696) in a standards track doc, therefore, I assume we
> have to say 3-in-1 updates 5696.
> 
> This will have the effect of precluding anyone using EXP for other
> experiments.
> 
> (Except for local use,.. I guess and operator could specify it wants
> kit that complies with 5696 and not 3-in-1.)
> 
> But for interop, 3-in-1 would be the "one true way".
> 
> Is this what the wg wants?
> 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


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Subject: Re: [PCN] Some more issues regarding 3-in-1 encoding
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OK, I think I unpicked which bits were from Bob's latest reply! As this
seems to be determined to be an HTML email it is getting into a bit of a
mess.

 

Inline marked {TM}

 

Toby

 

From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bob
Briscoe
Sent: 01 April 2011 10:12
To: Michael Menth
Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] Some more issues regarding 3-in-1 encoding

 

Michael,

At 23:44 21/03/2011, Michael Menth wrote:



Hi Bob,

Am 21.03.2011 22:39, schrieb Bob Briscoe: 



Michael,

At 16:50 21/03/2011, Michael Menth wrote:



Hi Bob,

1)

When reading the encoding comparison draft, I found some useful information
that should be added to the 3-in-1-draft after Section 3.2 in form of an own
section to argue that ETM must be more severe than ThM. I propose the
following text which may also be added in different words:

Requirements Imposed by New Tunneling Rules [RFC6040]

RFC6040 provides for new tunneling rules so that the codepoint of an outer
header ECN field are propagated correctly into the inner header ECN field
upon decapsulation. The assumption is that a packet was re-marked to ECT(1)
or to CE. Upon encapsulation within a PCN domain, the codepoint of the inner
header ECN field is copied to the outer header PCN field using the normal
mode. Upon decapsulation, a CE codepoint in the outer header overwrites a
ECT(1) codepoint in the inner header, but not vice-versa. Hence, re-marking
to CE always survives while re-marking to ECT(1) survives only if the inner
packet header is not CE. Hence, CE must be a more severe marking than ECT(1)
so that outer header markings can always propagated to the inner header upon
decapsulation.


Yes. And I'm sure we can write this more succinctly. It should go at the end
of S.3.1. Here's a suggestion:

OLD TEXT:
"  

Therefore, a fourth PCN marking state indicating that a packet is
marked by both markers is not needed.  However a fourth codepoint is
required to indicate packets that are not PCN-capable (the not-PCN
codepoint).
 
In all current PCN edge behaviors that use two marking schemes [RFC5559],
[I-D.ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour], excess-traffic-marking is configured
with a larger reference rate than threshold-marking. We take this as a
rule and define excess-traffic-marked as a more severe PCN-mark than
threshold-marked.
 

" 

NEW TEXT:This specification defines 

excess-traffic-marked as a more
severe PCN-mark than threshold-marked. Choosing a severity ranking
avoids
the need for a fourth codepoint to indicate that a packet is marked by
both markers. However a fourth codepoint is required to indicate packets
that are not PCN-capable (the not-PCN codepoint).
 
This severity ordering was chosen to be compatible with other existing
documents:
 
 * In all current PCN edge behaviors that use two marking schemes
   [RFC5559], [I-D.ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour],
excess-traffic-marking
   is configured with a larger reference rate than
threshold-marking.
 


 * In the specification that defines propagation of the ECN field through
tunnel endpoints [RFC6040], CE is defined as more severe than ECT(1) and
ECT(1) is defined as the same or greater severity than ECT(0).


This is probably better than before, but does not say why the ECT(1)=ETM and
CE=ThM wouldn't work. If you had mentioned that argument to me many months
ago, I had understood much faster that the severity order is not just an
arbitrary constraint but a necessity. Therefore, I find it useful explaining
this. We could have saved lots of discussion and it is unfortunate if that
reasoning gets lost. But if you are certain that his is not
appropriate/useful for the draft, I accept.


OK. Who has the editing token?

 

{TM} I think I had it last...






2)

Do we have that somewhere in the standards?

   The re-use of the ECN field for PCN encoding has some impact on the
   deployment of PCN.  First, routers within a PCN domain must not apply
   ECN re-marking when the ECN field has PCN semantics.  


RFC3168 (ECN marking) deliberately leaves the precise definition of the AQM
algorithm open. Therefore there's no reason why an ECN AQM algorithm
couldn't be similar to a PCN algorithm. Therefore, we shouldn't say that ECN
AQM cannot be used as the algo for PCN-enabled packets, because an ECN algo
might already be identical to a PCN algo.

Also, one of the reasons for trying to keep PCN encoding similar to ECN was
so that ECN routers could be used reasonably safely in a PCN domain (e.g. if
they couldn't do PCN, or if they were accidentally deployed without
configuring them to recognise the Diffserv codepoint that triggered PCN
treatment).


This is just a citation from the encoding comparison draft. If you find this
is wrong, you need to update that draft.


Whoever has the editing token for encoding comparison, please ack that this
is noted.

 

{TM} Again, that was me, although Georgios did the actual posting. I would
rather defer this to Georgios though






Second, before
   a PCN packet leaves the PCN domain, the egress nodes must either (A)
   reset the ECN field of the packet to the contents it had when
   entering the PCN domain or (B) reset its ECN field to not-ECT.
   According to Section 3.3.3, tunneling ECN traffic through a PCN
   domain may help to implement (A).  When (B) applies, CE-marked
   packets must never become PCN packets within a PCN domain as the
   egress node resets their ECN field to not-ECT.  The ingress node may
   drop such traffic instead.


S.4.2 of the baseline encoding [RFC5696] already says:

" 

A PCN-egress-node SHOULD set the not-PCN (00) codepoint on all
packets it forwards out of the PCN-domain.  The only exception to
this is if the PCN-egress-node is certain that revealing other codepoints
outside the PCN-domain won't contravene the guidance given in
[RFC4774].  For instance, if the PCN-ingress-node has explicitly
informed the PCN-egress-node that this flow is ECN-capable, then it might
be safe to expose other codepoints.
 

"



I already wrote an email that handling of ECN traffic should be discussed in
the encoding draft. Do we also have the information somewhere that CE
packets need to be dropped when the PCN-egress-node cannot restore the CE
codepoint? This is important and should be added either to the encoding
drafts or to the edge behavior drafts. If this is added to the encoding
drafts, we need an update of RFC5696 unless the information is already
there.


See Appx B of the Baseline Encoding [RFC5696], which gives four potential
ways for the egress to avoid zeroing an ECN field that was originally CE at
the ingress.


Good that we have that there! Something along these lines should also be
mentioned in the 3-in-1 encoding draft.


I've suggested that we use the classification you sent while reviewing the
3-in-1 slides (off list) of all the possible combinations of ECN, PCN etc
and give precise text on what we recommend in each case for e2e ECN
preservation.

 

{TM} which is I guess what is in Michael's parallel email thread.






3)

Why have you chosen the name "compatibility mode" in RFC6040?


It is a mode of the tunnel ingress to allow it to be compatible with a
tunnel egress compliant with earlier tunnelling specs. I suppose strictly it
should have been backward-compatibility mode, but it was shorter.

 

{TM} Incidentally, I meant to say that I think compatibility mode is the
correct term and reasonably self-explanatory - it is the mode that is
compatible with all forms of tunnelling (not backward compatible, actually
compatible).

 


Do you mean that the compatibility mode is backward-compatible to the
previous limited functionality mode?


Quoting RFC6040, S4.3:
"

   To comply with this specification, a tunnel ingress
MUST at least
   implement normal mode.  Unless it will never be used
with legacy
   tunnel egress nodes (RFC 2003, RFC 2401, or RFC 2481 or the
limited
   functionality mode of RFC 3168), an ingress MUST also
implement
   compatibility mode for backward compatibility with tunnel
egresses
   that do not propagate explicit congestion notifications
[RFC4774].

"

IOW, it's for backward-compatibility with all those previous RFCs in the
parenthesis, not just limited functionality mode of 3168.

 



Cheers


Bob




Best wishes,

    Michael






Cheers



Bob






Best wishes,

    Michael

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
<http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/> 


________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design

 

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
 <http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/> 
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
<http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/> 

________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>OK, I think I unpicked which bits were from Bob&#8217;s latest reply! =
As this seems to be determined to be an HTML email it is getting into a =
bit of a mess.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Inline marked {TM}<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Toby<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Bob Briscoe<br><b>Sent:</b> 01 April 2011 10:12<br><b>To:</b> =
Michael Menth<br><b>Cc:</b> pcn@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [PCN] =
Some more issues regarding 3-in-1 =
encoding<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Michael,<br><br>At 23:44 21/03/2011, Michael Menth =
wrote:<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Bob,<br><br>Am =
21.03.2011 22:39, schrieb Bob Briscoe: <br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Michael,<br><br>At 16:50 21/03/2011, Michael Menth =
wrote:<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Bob,<br><br>1)<br><br>When reading the encoding comparison draft, I =
found some useful information that should be added to the 3-in-1-draft =
after Section 3.2 in form of an own section to argue that ETM must be =
more severe than ThM. I propose the following text which may also be =
added in different words:<br><br>Requirements Imposed by New Tunneling =
Rules [RFC6040]<br><br>RFC6040 provides for new tunneling rules so that =
the codepoint of an outer header ECN field are propagated correctly into =
the inner header ECN field upon decapsulation. The assumption is that a =
packet was re-marked to ECT(1) or to CE. Upon encapsulation within a PCN =
domain, the codepoint of the inner header ECN field is copied to the =
outer header PCN field using the normal mode. Upon decapsulation, a CE =
codepoint in the outer header overwrites a ECT(1) codepoint in the inner =
header, but not vice-versa. Hence, re-marking to CE always survives =
while re-marking to ECT(1) survives only if the inner packet header is =
not CE. Hence, CE must be a more severe marking than ECT(1) so that =
outer header markings can always propagated to the inner header upon =
decapsulation.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Yes. And I'm sure =
we can write this more succinctly. It should go at the end of S.3.1. =
Here's a suggestion:<br><br>OLD TEXT:<br>&quot;&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><pre>Therefore, a fourth PCN marking state indicating =
that a packet is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>marked by both markers is not =
needed.&nbsp; However a fourth codepoint =
is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>required to indicate packets that are not =
PCN-capable (the =
not-PCN<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>codepoint).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></pre><pre>In all current PCN edge behaviors that use two marking =
schemes =
[RFC5559],<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>[I-D.ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour], =
excess-traffic-marking is configured<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>with a larger =
reference rate than threshold-marking. We take this as =
a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>rule and define excess-traffic-marked as a more =
severe PCN-mark =
than<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>threshold-marked.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal>&quot; <br><br>NEW TEXT:This =
specification defines <o:p></o:p></p><pre>excess-traffic-marked as a =
more<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>severe PCN-mark than threshold-marked. =
Choosing a severity =
ranking<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>avoids<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the need for a =
fourth codepoint to indicate that a packet is marked =
by<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>both markers. However a fourth codepoint is =
required to indicate packets<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>that are not =
PCN-capable (the not-PCN =
codepoint).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>This =
severity ordering was chosen to be compatible with other =
existing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>documents:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;* In all current PCN edge behaviors that use two =
marking schemes<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC5559], =
[I-D.ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour],<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>excess-traffic-mar=
king<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; is configured with a larger =
reference rate =
than<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>threshold-marking.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>&nbsp;* In the specification =
that defines propagation of the ECN field through tunnel endpoints =
[RFC6040], CE is defined as more severe than ECT(1) and ECT(1) is =
defined as the same or greater severity than ECT(0).<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>This is probably better than before, but does not =
say why the ECT(1)=3DETM and CE=3DThM wouldn't work. If you had =
mentioned that argument to me many months ago, I had understood much =
faster that the severity order is not just an arbitrary constraint but a =
necessity. Therefore, I find it useful explaining this. We could have =
saved lots of discussion and it is unfortunate if that reasoning gets =
lost. But if you are certain that his is not appropriate/useful for the =
draft, I accept.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>OK. Who has the =
editing token?<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>{TM} I think I had it last...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>2)<br><br>Do we have that somewhere in the =
standards?<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; The re-use of the ECN field for PCN =
encoding has some impact on the<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; deployment of PCN.&nbsp; =
First, routers within a PCN domain must not apply<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; ECN =
re-marking when the ECN field has PCN semantics.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>RFC3168 (ECN =
marking) deliberately leaves the precise definition of the AQM algorithm =
open. Therefore there's no reason why an ECN AQM algorithm couldn't be =
similar to a PCN algorithm. Therefore, we shouldn't say that ECN AQM =
cannot be used as the algo for PCN-enabled packets, because an ECN algo =
might already be identical to a PCN algo.<br><br>Also, one of the =
reasons for trying to keep PCN encoding similar to ECN was so that ECN =
routers could be used reasonably safely in a PCN domain (e.g. if they =
couldn't do PCN, or if they were accidentally deployed without =
configuring them to recognise the Diffserv codepoint that triggered PCN =
treatment).<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>This is =
just a citation from the encoding comparison draft. If you find this is =
wrong, you need to update that draft.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>Whoever has the editing token for encoding =
comparison, please ack that this is noted.<span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>{TM} Again, that was me, although Georgios did the actual posting. I =
would rather defer this to Georgios though<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Second, before<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; a PCN packet leaves the =
PCN domain, the egress nodes must either (A)<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; reset the =
ECN field of the packet to the contents it had when<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
entering the PCN domain or (B) reset its ECN field to =
not-ECT.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; According to Section 3.3.3, tunneling ECN =
traffic through a PCN<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; domain may help to implement =
(A).&nbsp; When (B) applies, CE-marked<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; packets must =
never become PCN packets within a PCN domain as the<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
egress node resets their ECN field to not-ECT.&nbsp; The ingress node =
may<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; drop such traffic =
instead.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>S.4.2 of =
the baseline encoding [RFC5696] already says:<br><br>&quot; =
<o:p></o:p></p><pre>A PCN-egress-node SHOULD set the not-PCN (00) =
codepoint on all<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>packets it forwards out of the =
PCN-domain.&nbsp; The only exception to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>this is if =
the PCN-egress-node is certain that revealing other =
codepoints<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>outside the PCN-domain won't contravene =
the guidance given in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>[RFC4774].&nbsp; For =
instance, if the PCN-ingress-node has =
explicitly<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>informed the PCN-egress-node that this =
flow is ECN-capable, then it might<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>be safe to =
expose other codepoints.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&quot;<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
already wrote an email that handling of ECN traffic should be discussed =
in the encoding draft. Do we also have the information somewhere that CE =
packets need to be dropped when the PCN-egress-node cannot restore the =
CE codepoint? This is important and should be added either to the =
encoding drafts or to the edge behavior drafts. If this is added to the =
encoding drafts, we need an update of RFC5696 unless the information is =
already there.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>See Appx B of the =
Baseline Encoding [RFC5696], which gives four potential ways for the =
egress to avoid zeroing an ECN field that was originally CE at the =
ingress.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Good that =
we have that there! Something along these lines should also be mentioned =
in the 3-in-1 encoding draft.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>I've suggested that we use the classification you =
sent while reviewing the 3-in-1 slides (off list) of all the possible =
combinations of ECN, PCN etc and give precise text on what we recommend =
in each case for e2e ECN preservation.<span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>{TM} which is I guess what is in Michael&#8217;s parallel email =
thread.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>3)<br><br>Why have you chosen the name =
&quot;compatibility mode&quot; in RFC6040?<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>It is a mode of the tunnel ingress to allow it to =
be compatible with a tunnel egress compliant with earlier tunnelling =
specs. I suppose strictly it should have been backward-compatibility =
mode, but it was shorter.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>{TM} Incidentally, I meant to say that I think compatibility mode is =
the correct term and reasonably self-explanatory &#8211; it is the mode =
that is compatible with all forms of tunnelling (not backward =
compatible, actually compatible).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Do =
you mean that the compatibility mode is backward-compatible to the =
previous limited functionality mode?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>Quoting RFC6040, =
S4.3:<br>&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; To comply with this =
specification, a tunnel ingress<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>MUST at =
least<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; implement normal mode.&nbsp; =
Unless it will never be used<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>with =
legacy<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; tunnel egress nodes (RFC 2003, =
RFC 2401, or RFC 2481 or =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>limited<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
functionality mode of RFC 3168), an ingress MUST =
also<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>implement<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
compatibility mode for backward compatibility with =
tunnel<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>egresses<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
that do not propagate explicit congestion =
notifications<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>[RFC4774].<o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&quot;<br><br>IOW, it's for backward-compatibility =
with all those previous RFCs in the parenthesis, not just limited =
functionality mode of 3168.<span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br>Cheers<br><br><br>Bob<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal>Best wishes,<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Michael<br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>Cheers<br><br><br><br>Bob<br><br><br><br><br><o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Best wishes,<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Michael<br><br>-- <br>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth<br>University of =
Tuebingen<br>Faculty of Science<br>Department of Computer =
Science<br>Chair of Communication Networks<br>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, =
Germany<br>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505<br>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de">mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de</a><=
br><a =
href=3D"http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/">http://www-kn.informa=
tik.uni-tuebingen.de</a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>___________________________________________________=
_____________<br>Bob =
Briscoe,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BT Innovate &amp; =
Design<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><pre>-- =
<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael =
Menth<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>University of =
Tuebingen<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Faculty of =
Science<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Department of Computer =
Science<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Chair of Communication =
Networks<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, =
Germany<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>phone: =
(+49)-7071/29-70505<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>fax: =
(+49)-7071/29-5220<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de">mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de</a><=
o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/"><o:p></o:p></a></pre>=
<pre><span class=3DMsoHyperlink><a =
href=3D"http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/">http://www-kn.informa=
tik.uni-tuebingen.de</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre><p>______________________=
__________________________________________<br>Bob =
Briscoe,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BT Innovate &amp; =
Design<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01CBF061.BC540CF0--


From menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Apr  1 04:37:03 2011
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Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 13:38:34 +0200
From: Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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Hi Georgios,

Am 01.04.2011 12:01, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
> Hi Michael
>
> If we need to define the actions, then these actions should be in line
> with Section 3.6 of RFC5559:
> -----------------
> 3.6.  Backwards Compatibility
>
>     PCN specifies semantics for the ECN field that differ from the
>     default semantics of [RFC3168].  A particular PCN encoding scheme
>     needs to describe how it meets the guidelines of BCP 124 [RFC4774]
>     for specifying alternative semantics for the ECN field.  In summary,
>     the approach is to:
>
>     o  use a DSCP to allow PCN-nodes to distinguish PCN-traffic that uses
>        the alternative ECN semantics;
>
>     o  define these semantics for use within a controlled region, the
>        PCN-domain;
>
>     o  take appropriate action if ECN-capable, non-PCN-traffic arrives at
>        a PCN-ingress-node with the DSCP used by PCN.
>
>     For the baseline encoding [Moncaster09-1], the "appropriate action"
>     is to block ECN-capable traffic that uses the same DSCP as PCN from
>     entering the PCN-domain directly.  "Blocking" means it is dropped or
>     downgraded to a lower-priority behaviour aggregate, or alternatively
>     such traffic may be tunnelled through the PCN-domain.  The reason
>     that "appropriate action" is needed is that the PCN-egress-node
>     clears the ECN field to 00.
>
>     Extended encoding schemes may need to take different "appropriate
>     action".
> ----------------
>
> Can you please emphasize how the proposed actions satsifiy the above
> requirements taken from Section 3.6 of RFC5559?
The proposed actions either restore the original ECN-field at the PCN 
egress node or they avoid that packets which were CE-marked before 
entering the PCN-domain do not leave the PCN-domain without a CE-mark. 
In the most extreme cases, CE-marked packets are dropped when entering a 
PCN domain.

Michael


> Best regards,
> Georgios
>
> On 4/1/2011, "Michael Menth"<menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a slight
>> rewording:
>>
>> Handling of ECN traffic
>> * ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
>> PCN-compatible DSCP
>>      - no action needed
>> * ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
>> PCN-compatible DSCP
>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible DSCP in
>> the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
>>      - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and egress
>> re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in the
>> outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of ECN for
>> this traffic within the PCN domain.
>> * ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
>>      - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field of PCN
>> packets which disables end-to-end ECN
>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible
>> DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros ECN-field before
>> decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
>> * ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
>> indicated to receive PCN marks
>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP but the
>> egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation according to
>> RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) so that
>> the nonce is modified.
>>
>> Another two questions
>> * Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is subject to
>> PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems to be a
>> similar issue.
>> * How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP interpreted
>> outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics? Have we stated that
>> somewhere. Do we need to state it?
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>>      Michael
>>
>> --
>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>> University of Tuebingen
>> Faculty of Science
>> Department of Computer Science
>> Chair of Communication Networks
>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>> http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> PCN mailing list
>> PCN@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


From menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Apr  1 04:43:06 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-04 as Proposed Standard
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Hi,

is baseline encoding meant only for local use? If so, I do not see why 
it should not be possible to have two different standards for local PCN 
encodings. If baseline is defined for global use (not sure how this 
relates to ECN), then having two standards track docs about PCN encoding 
indeed seems to be a problem.

     Michael

Am 01.04.2011 12:24, schrieb Toby Moncaster:
> The only difference is that we are fixing on a meaning for the EXP
> codepoint. In RFC5696 we specified that
>
> "   o  The 01 Experimental codepoint in the ECN field MAY mean PCN-marked
>        or it MAY carry some other meaning.  However, any experimental
>        scheme MUST define its meaning in the context of that experiment.
>
>     o  If both the 01 and 11 codepoints are being used to indicate PCN-
>        marked, then the 11 codepoint MUST be taken to be the more severe
>        marking and the choice of which meter sets which mark MUST be
>        defined."
>
> So the change is that we are defining EXP as only being able to indicate
> PCN-marked. We already had 11 being a more severe marking so that doesn't
> create any conflict.
>
> I would be keen to be able to preserve a coding that allows for a single
> marking scheme as that is the easiest version of PCN. Is it possible to have
> a standards track extension to a standard without updating the original
> standard? After all we have already written this document to be compliant
> with RFC5696.
>
> If we are going to have 3-in-1 update RFC5696 that might mean we have to put
> all the extra stuff from there into this document (rather more than minor
> changes in other words).
>
> Toby
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Bob Briscoe
>> Sent: 01 April 2011 09:27
>> To: 'Steven Blake'
>> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [PCN] WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-04 as
>> Proposed Standard
>>
>> Steve,
>>
>> If we make 3-in-1 standards track, we will be using the EXP codepoint
>> of baseline (5696) in a standards track doc, therefore, I assume we
>> have to say 3-in-1 updates 5696.
>>
>> This will have the effect of precluding anyone using EXP for other
>> experiments.
>>
>> (Except for local use,.. I guess and operator could specify it wants
>> kit that complies with 5696 and not 3-in-1.)
>>
>> But for interop, 3-in-1 would be the "one true way".
>>
>> Is this what the wg wants?
>>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________________________________
>> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> PCN mailing list
>> PCN@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


From bob.briscoe@bt.com  Fri Apr  1 05:27:43 2011
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To: Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
From: Bob Briscoe <bob.briscoe@bt.com>
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Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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Michael,

At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a 
>slight rewording:
>
>Handling of ECN traffic
>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a 
>PCN-compatible DSCP
>     - no action needed
>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a 
>PCN-compatible DSCP
>     - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible DSCP 
> in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
>     - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and egress 
> re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
>     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in the 
> outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of ECN 
> for this traffic within the PCN domain.

We ought to recommend one:
#2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain extent.
THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs (e.g. 
MPLS or Ethernet).
#1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same. So 
#1 can be chucked.

>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
>     - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field of 
> PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN

Not recommended

>     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a 
> PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros 
> ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)

recommended

>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has 
>indicated to receive PCN marks
>     - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP but 
> the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation 
> according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn ECT(0) 
> into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.

Good point.
This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.


>Another two questions
>* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is subject 
>to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems to be 
>a similar issue.

Similar to what?

>* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP 
>interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics? Have 
>we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?

Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.


Bob


>Best wishes,
>
>     Michael
>
>--
>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>University of Tuebingen
>Faculty of Science
>Department of Computer Science
>Chair of Communication Networks
>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de

________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design 


From toby@moncaster.com  Fri Apr  1 06:46:39 2011
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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
To: "'Steven Blake'" <slblake@petri-meat.com>, "'pcn'" <pcn@ietf.org>
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Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 14:48:14 +0100
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Conclusion: WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-04.txt
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Following the discussion in the meeting regarding the appendixes to this
draft. Clearly these don't exist in this form anywhere else and are of
interest to people. Equally clearly there is no real mechanism for
back-referencing a previous version of this draft.

Would there be any harm in submitting them as a stand-alone informational
RFC in their current form (with appropriate boilerplate, x-references for
security considerations, etc)?

Also, I think Gorry's point about the name of the draft was very valid. I
would have no objection at all to changing the name.

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Steven Blake
> Sent: 31 March 2011 03:03
> To: pcn
> Subject: [PCN] Conclusion: WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-
> 04.txt
> 
> I am seeing rough consensus for a set of edits to be applied to this
> draft.
> 
> Editors: please revise the draft, and we will run an abbreviated WGLC.
> 
> Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> // Steve
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


From toby@moncaster.com  Fri Apr  1 06:56:30 2011
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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
To: "'Bob Briscoe'" <bob.briscoe@bt.com>, "'Michael Menth'" <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on this draft:

1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)

2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively updates RFC5696
and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on their own
(which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an experiment!).

3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.

I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline which is that
this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.

Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see it we are
always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance I am not sure
if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding being
dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696. 

Of course we could always revive the option we discussed, where we obsolete
RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft (which could
then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)... 

Thoughts anyone?

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
> To: Michael Menth
> Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> 
> Michael,
> 
> At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >
> >to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a
> >slight rewording:
> >
> >Handling of ECN traffic
> >* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
> >PCN-compatible DSCP
> >     - no action needed
> >* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
> >PCN-compatible DSCP
> >     - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible DSCP
> > in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
> >     - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and egress
> > re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
> >     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in the
> > outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of ECN
> > for this traffic within the PCN domain.
> 
> We ought to recommend one:
> #2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain extent.
> THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs (e.g.
> MPLS or Ethernet).
> #1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same. So
> #1 can be chucked.
> 
> >* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
> >     - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field of
> > PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
> 
> Not recommended
> 
> >     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
> > PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
> > ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
> 
> recommended
> 
> >* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
> >indicated to receive PCN marks
> >     - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP but
> > the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation
> > according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn ECT(0)
> > into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
> 
> Good point.
> This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.
> 
> 
> >Another two questions
> >* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is subject
> >to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems to be
> >a similar issue.
> 
> Similar to what?
> 
> >* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
> >interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics? Have
> >we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
> 
> Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
> 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> >Best wishes,
> >
> >     Michael
> >
> >--
> >Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> >University of Tuebingen
> >Faculty of Science
> >Department of Computer Science
> >Chair of Communication Networks
> >Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> >phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> >fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> >mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> >http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design


From sob@sobco.com  Fri Apr  1 08:38:05 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] An alternative edge behavior
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I uploaded all the presentations

Scott

On Mar 31, 2011, at 5:51 AM, Toby Moncaster wrote:

> Michael,
> 
> In future can you send as a link rather than an attachment? Receiving a 5Mb
> email may cause issues for some folks, especially those travelling and
> relying on an over-stretched corporate VPN for email access (or even worse,
> an over-priced 3G roaming contract!).
> 
> Failing that, just sending to the WGCs would suffice, as they can then
> upload the files to the meeting materials page...
> 
> Toby
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Michael Menth
>> Sent: 31 March 2011 10:20
>> To: pcn@ietf.org; Scott O. Bradner
>> Subject: Re: [PCN] An alternative edge behavior
>> 
>> Once more again,
>> 
>> sending pptx apparently caused problems. Attached is the presentation
>> in ppt/pdf Hopefully you get this without warning.
>> 
>> Michael
>> 
>> --
>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>> University of Tuebingen
>> Faculty of Science
>> Department of Computer Science
>> Chair of Communication Networks
>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>> http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> 
> 


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Subject: Re: [PCN] Conclusion: WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-04.txt
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On Fri, 2011-04-01 at 14:48 +0100, Toby Moncaster wrote:

> Following the discussion in the meeting regarding the appendixes to this
> draft. Clearly these don't exist in this form anywhere else and are of
> interest to people. Equally clearly there is no real mechanism for
> back-referencing a previous version of this draft.

I must not have followed that part of the discussion.  What is the
problem with keeping the appendices in the draft?

> Would there be any harm in submitting them as a stand-alone informational
> RFC in their current form (with appropriate boilerplate, x-references for
> security considerations, etc)?

They seem very relevant to the topic of the draft already.  I don't
understand the need to separate them.

> Also, I think Gorry's point about the name of the draft was very valid. I
> would have no objection at all to changing the name.


Regards,

// Steve


From menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Sat Apr  2 01:19:51 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Conclusion: WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-04.txt
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Hi,

the appendix documents initial thoughts from a time when we were not 
fully aware of all the implications from RFC4774-compliance and 
tunneling contraints. All relevant information is in the main document. 
Therefore, the appendix can be dropped without any loss of relevant 
information so that keeping the appendix rather confuses than helps.

Best wishes,

     Michael

Am 02.04.2011 06:02, schrieb Steven Blake:
> On Fri, 2011-04-01 at 14:48 +0100, Toby Moncaster wrote:
>
>> Following the discussion in the meeting regarding the appendixes to this
>> draft. Clearly these don't exist in this form anywhere else and are of
>> interest to people. Equally clearly there is no real mechanism for
>> back-referencing a previous version of this draft.
> I must not have followed that part of the discussion.  What is the
> problem with keeping the appendices in the draft?
>
>> Would there be any harm in submitting them as a stand-alone informational
>> RFC in their current form (with appropriate boilerplate, x-references for
>> security considerations, etc)?
> They seem very relevant to the topic of the draft already.  I don't
> understand the need to separate them.
>
>> Also, I think Gorry's point about the name of the draft was very valid. I
>> would have no objection at all to changing the name.
>
> Regards,
>
> // Steve
>
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


From menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Sat Apr  2 02:15:41 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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Hi Bob,

Am 01.04.2011 14:22, schrieb Bob Briscoe:
> Michael,
>
> At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a slight 
>> rewording:
>>
>> Handling of ECN traffic
>> * ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a 
>> PCN-compatible DSCP
>>     - no action needed
>> * ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a 
>> PCN-compatible DSCP
>>     - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible DSCP in 
>> the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
>>     - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and egress 
>> re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
>>     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in the 
>> outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of ECN 
>> for this traffic within the PCN domain.
>
> We ought to recommend one:
> #2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain extent.
> THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs (e.g. 
> MPLS or Ethernet).
> #1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same. So 
> #1 can be chucked.
Both #1 and #2 change the DSCP for transport within the PCN domain and 
restore the original DSCP at the egress; I assume that this is a DSCP 
outside the PHB of the PCN-compatible DSCP.
#3: the outer header has: PCN-compatible DSCP & not-ECT, so that the 
traffic is carried in the same PHB as admisison controlled traffic. Is 
that what we want to recommend? This makes AC less useful as other 
traffic for the same PHB can enter the network without AC.


>
>> * ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
>>     - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field of 
>> PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
>
> Not recommended
>
>>     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible 
>> DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros ECN-field before 
>> decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
>
> recommended
What do you mean by not recommended?
1) Valid, but non-preferred option?
2) Should not be mentioned in the document?
My view is that we should offer a way to work without tunnels if possible.

>
>> * ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has 
>> indicated to receive PCN marks
>>     - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP but the 
>> egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation according 
>> to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) so 
>> that the nonce is modified.
>
> Good point.
> This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.
We have the same issue for RFC6040 in general and probably for your 
current guidelines draft.

>
>
>> Another two questions
>> * Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is subject to 
>> PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems to be a 
>> similar issue.
>
> Similar to what?

Example: traffic that is subject to PCN control arrives at the ingress 
with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP. What should be done?
1) Ingress overwrites original DSCP with PCN-compatible DSCP -> original 
DSCP cannot be restored at the egress
2) Traffic is tunnelled with PCN-compatible DSCP across the PCN domain 
-> tunneling overhead


Other example: traffic that is not subject to PCN control arrives at the 
ingress with a PCN-compatible DSCP. What should be done?
1) do nothing -> the traffic is carried in the same PHB as admission 
controlled traffic; this makes admission control less useful
2) tunnel the traffic in a local DSCP and restore the original DSCP -> 
care must be taken that the local DSCP is carried with a PHB that is 
good enough

Do we need to address these issues? Maybe it's good to point out these 
options? Do we need to give a recommendation.

Regards,

     Michael

>
>> * How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP 
>> interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics? Have we 
>> stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
>
> Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>>     Michael
>>
>> -- 
>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>> University of Tuebingen
>> Faculty of Science
>> Department of Computer Science
>> Chair of Communication Networks
>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>> http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Sun Apr  3 12:28:44 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Conclusion: WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-04.txt
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Hi Steve, Hi Tobby

Actually, I am in favour of either kepping the appenidices in the current
draft or submitting them as a stand-alone informational RFC in their
current form (with appropriate boilerplate, x-references for
security considerations, etc).

However, this depends of course on what the PCN WG wants.

Best regards,
Georgios



On 4/2/2011, "Steven Blake" <slblake@petri-meat.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 2011-04-01 at 14:48 +0100, Toby Moncaster wrote:
>
>> Following the discussion in the meeting regarding the appendixes to this
>> draft. Clearly these don't exist in this form anywhere else and are of
>> interest to people. Equally clearly there is no real mechanism for
>> back-referencing a previous version of this draft.
>
>I must not have followed that part of the discussion.  What is the
>problem with keeping the appendices in the draft?
>
>> Would there be any harm in submitting them as a stand-alone informational
>> RFC in their current form (with appropriate boilerplate, x-references for
>> security considerations, etc)?
>
>They seem very relevant to the topic of the draft already.  I don't
>understand the need to separate them.
>
>> Also, I think Gorry's point about the name of the draft was very valid. I
>> would have no objection at all to changing the name.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>// Steve
>
>_______________________________________________
>PCN mailing list
>PCN@ietf.org
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From philip.eardley@bt.com  Mon Apr  4 05:36:21 2011
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>, <slblake@petri-meat.com>, <toby@moncaster.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:37:54 +0100
Thread-Topic: [PCN] Conclusion: WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-04.txt
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We agreed to drop them (I believe)

-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Georg=
ios Karagiannis
Sent: 03 April 2011 20:30
To: Steven Blake; Toby Moncaster
Cc: 'pcn'
Subject: Re: [PCN] Conclusion: WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-=
04.txt

Hi Steve, Hi Tobby

Actually, I am in favour of either kepping the appenidices in the current
draft or submitting them as a stand-alone informational RFC in their
current form (with appropriate boilerplate, x-references for
security considerations, etc).

However, this depends of course on what the PCN WG wants.

Best regards,
Georgios



On 4/2/2011, "Steven Blake" <slblake@petri-meat.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 2011-04-01 at 14:48 +0100, Toby Moncaster wrote:
>
>> Following the discussion in the meeting regarding the appendixes to this
>> draft. Clearly these don't exist in this form anywhere else and are of
>> interest to people. Equally clearly there is no real mechanism for
>> back-referencing a previous version of this draft.
>
>I must not have followed that part of the discussion.  What is the
>problem with keeping the appendices in the draft?
>
>> Would there be any harm in submitting them as a stand-alone informationa=
l
>> RFC in their current form (with appropriate boilerplate, x-references fo=
r
>> security considerations, etc)?
>
>They seem very relevant to the topic of the draft already.  I don't
>understand the need to separate them.
>
>> Also, I think Gorry's point about the name of the draft was very valid. =
I
>> would have no objection at all to changing the name.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>// Steve
>
>_______________________________________________
>PCN mailing list
>PCN@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
_______________________________________________
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From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Mon Apr  4 05:45:55 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: <philip.eardley@bt.com>, <slblake@petri-meat.com>, <toby@moncaster.com>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Conclusion: WGLC fordraft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-04.txt
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Hi Phil

Yes! But what if people that have not attented the PCN WG meeting have
another opinion! 
Note that not many people attended the PCN meeting!

Best regards,
Georgios


> -----Original Message-----
> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com] 
> Sent: maandag 4 april 2011 14:38
> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; slblake@petri-meat.com; toby@moncaster.com
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Conclusion: WGLC 
> fordraft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-04.txt
> 
> We agreed to drop them (I believe)
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> Sent: 03 April 2011 20:30
> To: Steven Blake; Toby Moncaster
> Cc: 'pcn'
> Subject: Re: [PCN] Conclusion: WGLC for 
> draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-04.txt
> 
> Hi Steve, Hi Tobby
> 
> Actually, I am in favour of either kepping the appenidices in 
> the current draft or submitting them as a stand-alone 
> informational RFC in their current form (with appropriate 
> boilerplate, x-references for security considerations, etc).
> 
> However, this depends of course on what the PCN WG wants.
> 
> Best regards,
> Georgios
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/2/2011, "Steven Blake" <slblake@petri-meat.com> wrote:
> 
> >On Fri, 2011-04-01 at 14:48 +0100, Toby Moncaster wrote:
> >
> >> Following the discussion in the meeting regarding the 
> appendixes to 
> >> this draft. Clearly these don't exist in this form 
> anywhere else and 
> >> are of interest to people. Equally clearly there is no 
> real mechanism 
> >> for back-referencing a previous version of this draft.
> >
> >I must not have followed that part of the discussion.  What is the 
> >problem with keeping the appendices in the draft?
> >
> >> Would there be any harm in submitting them as a stand-alone 
> >> informational RFC in their current form (with appropriate 
> >> boilerplate, x-references for security considerations, etc)?
> >
> >They seem very relevant to the topic of the draft already.  I don't 
> >understand the need to separate them.
> >
> >> Also, I think Gorry's point about the name of the draft was very 
> >> valid. I would have no objection at all to changing the name.
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >// Steve
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >PCN mailing list
> >PCN@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 



From philip.eardley@bt.com  Mon Apr  4 05:51:23 2011
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:52:56 +0100
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Sorry Steve, I misread the indentation- to answer your question about why d=
rop the appendix:
- the main body has all the information about the pros and cons of various =
encoding options.=20
- the appendix is full of typos, poor phrasings etc which would take quite =
a lot of effort to clean up.

Best wishes
phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Georgios Karagiannis [mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl]=20
Sent: 04 April 2011 13:47
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; slblake@petri-meat.com; toby@moncaster.com
Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [PCN] Conclusion: WGLC fordraft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-0=
4.txt

Hi Phil

Yes! But what if people that have not attented the PCN WG meeting have
another opinion!=20
Note that not many people attended the PCN meeting!

Best regards,
Georgios


> -----Original Message-----
> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]=20
> Sent: maandag 4 april 2011 14:38
> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; slblake@petri-meat.com; toby@moncaster.com
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Conclusion: WGLC=20
> fordraft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-04.txt
>=20
> We agreed to drop them (I believe)
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> Sent: 03 April 2011 20:30
> To: Steven Blake; Toby Moncaster
> Cc: 'pcn'
> Subject: Re: [PCN] Conclusion: WGLC for=20
> draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-04.txt
>=20
> Hi Steve, Hi Tobby
>=20
> Actually, I am in favour of either kepping the appenidices in=20
> the current draft or submitting them as a stand-alone=20
> informational RFC in their current form (with appropriate=20
> boilerplate, x-references for security considerations, etc).
>=20
> However, this depends of course on what the PCN WG wants.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Georgios
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 4/2/2011, "Steven Blake" <slblake@petri-meat.com> wrote:
>=20
> >On Fri, 2011-04-01 at 14:48 +0100, Toby Moncaster wrote:
> >
> >> Following the discussion in the meeting regarding the=20
> appendixes to=20
> >> this draft. Clearly these don't exist in this form=20
> anywhere else and=20
> >> are of interest to people. Equally clearly there is no=20
> real mechanism=20
> >> for back-referencing a previous version of this draft.
> >
> >I must not have followed that part of the discussion.  What is the=20
> >problem with keeping the appendices in the draft?
> >
> >> Would there be any harm in submitting them as a stand-alone=20
> >> informational RFC in their current form (with appropriate=20
> >> boilerplate, x-references for security considerations, etc)?
> >
> >They seem very relevant to the topic of the draft already.  I don't=20
> >understand the need to separate them.
> >
> >> Also, I think Gorry's point about the name of the draft was very=20
> >> valid. I would have no objection at all to changing the name.
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >// Steve
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >PCN mailing list
> >PCN@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>=20



From philip.eardley@bt.com  Mon Apr  4 09:17:23 2011
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <pcn@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 17:19:00 +0100
Thread-Topic: Signalling requirements
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Hi,

I did my edits to Michael's version. Mainly just some re-wordings for clari=
ty. I think i managed to make it even shorter and hopefully clearer.

The word doc has track changes on, whilst the pdf shows it without.

Best wishes
phil

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nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi,<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I did my e=
dits to Michael&#8217;s version. Mainly just some re-wordings for clarity. =
I think i managed to make it even shorter and hopefully clearer.<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The word=
 doc has track changes on, whilst the pdf shows it without.<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Best wishes<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>phil<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>=

--_000_9510D26531EF184D9017DF24659BB87F328F45F4ECEMV65UKRDdoma_--

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Content-Description: draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-02-MM-phil.doc
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From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Tue Apr  5 03:54:09 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
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Subject: [PCN] new preversion of signaling requirements draft + question
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Hi all
 
I would like to thank all PCN WG members and especially Michael en Phil for
the comments received on the 02 version of the signaling requirements draft.
 
I have worked out all comments that have been provided by the PCN WG and
generated the draft that you can see in the attachment of this email.
 
This version complies to the version sent by Phil yesterday. I have
included, however, two additions:
 
1) included [RFC4804] the list with flow identifier examples.
 
2) I have ioncluded Phil as co-author of this draft.
 
If you agree with thsi version and especially with the above mentioned
additions then I can submit the draft and we could then start a WGLC.
 
Best regards,
Georgios
 

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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011>Hi all</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011>I would like to thank all PCN WG members and =
especially=20
Michael en Phil for the comments received on the 02 version of the =
signaling=20
requirements draft.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011>I have worked out all comments that have been =
provided=20
by the PCN WG and generated the draft that you can see in the attachment =
of this=20
email.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011>This version complies to the version sent by =
Phil=20
yesterday. I have included, however, two additions:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011><SPAN =
lang=3DEN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011><SPAN lang=3DEN>1) included [RFC4804]<SPAN=20
lang=3DEN>&nbsp;the list with flow identifier=20
examples.</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011><SPAN lang=3DEN><SPAN=20
lang=3DEN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011><SPAN lang=3DEN>2) I have ioncluded Phil as =
co-author of=20
this draft.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011><SPAN =
lang=3DEN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011>If you agree with thsi version and especially =
with the=20
above mentioned additions then I can submit the draft and we could then =
start a=20
WGLC.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011>Best regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011>Georgios</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944414510-05042011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Internet Engineering Task Force                           G. Karagiannis =

Internet-Draft                                      University of Twente
Intended status: Informational                                 T. Taylor
Expires: October 04, 2011                                        K. Chan
                                                     Huawei Technologies
                                                                M. Menth
                                                 University of Tuebingen
                                                              P. Eardley
                                                                      BT
                                                          April 04, 2011
                                                                       =20
                                                                       =20
                                                                       =20
                                                                       =20


    Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) Congestion Information in a =20
                           DiffServ Domain
                  draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03

Abstract

   Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting quality of
   service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv domain. The=20
   overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo=20
   describes the requirements for the signaling applied within the PCN=20
   domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the PCN-egress-
   node to the decision point;(2) the decision point may ask the PCN-
   ingress-node to measure, and report back, the rate of PCN-traffic=20
   between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The decision point may be=20
   either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a centralized node (in =

   the latter case, (2) is not required). The signaling requirements=20
   pertain in particular to two edge behaviours, "controlled load (CL)"=20
   and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],=20
   [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].


Status of this Memo

This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the
   provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79.

   Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF).  Note that other groups may also distribute
   working documents as Internet-Drafts.  The list of current Internet-
   Drafts is at http://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/.

   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
   time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."

   This Internet-Draft will expire on September 02, 2011.
  =20





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Copyright Notice

Copyright (c) 2010 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the
   document authors.  All rights reserved.

   Copyright (c) 2011 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the
   document authors.  All rights reserved.

   This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal
   Provisions Relating to IETF Documents
   (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of
   publication of this document.  Please review these documents
   carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect
   to this document.  Code Components extracted from this document must
   include Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of
   the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without warranty as
   described in the Simplified BSD License.


Requirements Language

   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
   document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].

Table of Contents
1.  Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
2.  Signaling Requirements for Messages from the PCN-Egress-Nodes to=20
    Decision Point(s) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  3
    2.1.  Specification of Flow Identifiers  . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
3.  Signaling Requirements for Messages between Decision Point(s) and=20
    PCN-Ingress-Nodes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  5
4.  Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  5
5.  IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  6
6.  Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   6
7.  References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
    7.1.  Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
    7.2.  Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
    Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   7

















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1.  Introduction

   The main objective of Pre-Congestion Notification (PCN) is to support =

   the quality of service (QoS) of inelastic flows within a Diffserv=20
   domain in a simple, scalable, and robust fashion.  Two mechanisms=20
   are used: admission control and flow termination. Admission control=20
   is used to decide whether to admit or block a new flow request while=20
   flow termination is used in abnormal circumstances to decide
   whether to terminate some of the existing flows.  To support these=20
   two features, the overall rate of PCN-traffic is metered on every=20
   link in the domain, and PCN-packets are appropriately marked when=20
   certain configured rates are exceeded. These configured rates are=20
   below the rate of the link thus providing notification to boundary=20
   nodes about overloads before any congestion occurs (hence "pre-
   congestion" notification). The PCN-egress-nodes measure the rates of=20
   differently marked PCN traffic in periodic intervals and report these =

   rates to the decision points for admission control and flow=20
   termination, based on which they take their decisions. The decision=20
   points may be collocated with the PCN-ingress-nodes or their function =

   may be implemented in a centralized node.
   For more details see[RFC5559, [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],=20
   [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].

   This memo specifies the requirements on signaling protocols:
   o to carry reports from a PCN-egress-node to the decision point,
   o to carry requests from the decision point to a PCN-ingress-node =
that  =20
     trigger the PCN-ingress-node to measure the PCN-sent-rate,
   o to carry reports, from a PCN-ingress-node to the decision=20
     point.

   The latter two messages are only needed if the decision point and =
PCN-
   ingress-node are not collocated.


2.  Signaling Requirements for Messages from the PCN-Egress-Nodes to=20
    Decision Point(s)

   The PCN-egress-node measures, per ingress-egress-aggregate, the rates =

   of differently marked PCN-traffic in regular intervals. The=20
   measurement intervals are recommended to take a fixed value between=20
   100 ms and 500 ms, see [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],=20
   [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05]. At the end of each measurement =

   interval, the PCN-egress-node calculates the =
congestion-level-estimate    =20
   (CLE) based on these quantities. The PCN-egress-node MAY be =
configured=20
   to record a set of identifiers of PCN-flows for which it received=20
   excess-traffic-marked packets during the last measurement interval. =20
   The latter may be useful to perform flow termination in networks with =

   multipath routing.

   At the end of each measurement interval, or less frequently if=20
   "optional report suppression" is activated, see=20
   [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08], [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-=20
   behaviour-05], the PCN-egress-node sends a report to the decision=20
   point.=20


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Internet-Draft       PCN Signaling requirements             April 2011

   For the SM edge behaviour, the report MUST contain:
   o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the identifier of the=20
     PCN-egress-node (typically their IP addresses); together they=20
     specify the ingress-egress-aggregate to which the report refers,
   o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in octets/second,
   o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
   o the congestion-level-estimate, which is a number between zero and=20
     one.

   For the CL edge behaviour, the report MUST contain:
   o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the identifier of the=20
     PCN-egress-node (typically their IP addresses); together they=20
     specify the ingress-egress-aggregate to which the report refers,
   o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in=20
     octets/second,
   o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in octets/second,

   For both CL and SM edge behaviours, the report MAY also contain:
   o a set of flow identifiers (see Section 2.1).

   The signaling report can either be sent directly to the decision=20
   point or it can "piggy-back", i.e. be included within some other=20
   message that passes through the PCN-egress-node and then the decision =

   point.=20

   Signaling messages SHOULD have a higher priority than data packets to =

   deliver them quickly and to avoid that they are dropped in case of=20
   overload.=20

   The load generated by the signaling protocol SHOULD be minimized. We=20
   give three examples that may help to achieve that goal:
   o Piggy-backing the reports by the PCN-egress-nodes to the decision   =
  =20
     point(s) onto other signaling messages that are already in place.
   o Reducing the amount of reports to be sent by optional report=20
     suppression.
   o combining reports for different ingress-egress-aggregates in a=20
     single message (if they are for the same decision point).

   As PCN reports are sent regularly, additional reliability mechanisms  =
 =20
   are not needed. This also holds in the presence of optional report=20
   suppression, as reports are sent periodically if actions by the =20
   decision point(s) are needed, see [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-
   -08], [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].


2.1 Specification of Flow Identifiers

   The representation of a flow identifier depends on the surrounding=20
   environment, e.g., pure IP, MPLS, GMPLS, etc. Examples of such flow=20
   identifier representations can be found in [RFC2205], [RFC3175]=20
   [RFC3209], [RFC3473], [RFC4804].=20

   In pure IP networks, the identifier may consist of a subset of the=20
   following information:

   o  source IP address;

Karagiannis, et al.   Expires October 04, 2011                [Page 4]

Internet-Draft       PCN Signaling requirements             April 2011

   o  destination IP address;

   o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;

   o  flow label (typical for IPv6);

   o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data;=20

   o  DSCP/TOS field;

   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;

   o  IP address of PCN-egress-node=20


3.  Signaling Requirements for Messages between Decision Point(s) and=20
    PCN-Ingress-Nodes=20

   Through request-response signaling between the decision point and =
PCN-
   ingress-node, the decision point requests and in response the PCN-
   ingress-node measures and reports the PCN-sent-rate for a specific=20
   ingress-egress-aggregate. Signaling is needed only if the decision=20
   point and PCN-ingress-node are not collocated.=20

   The request MUST contain:
   o an indication that the PCN-sent-rate is requested,
   o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the identifier of the =20
     PCN-egress-node; together they determine the ingress-egress-
     aggregate for which the PCN-sent-rate is requested,
   o the identifier of the decision point that requests the PCN-sent-
     rate.

   The report MUST contain:
   o an indication that the reported data is a PCN-sent-rate,
   o the PCN-sent-rate in octets/second,
   o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the identifier of the=20
     PCN-egress-node.=20

   The request MUST be addressed to the PCN-ingress-node, and the report =

   MUST be addressed to the decision point that requested it.

   The request and the report SHOULD be sent with high priority and=20
   reliably, because they are sent only when flow termination is needed, =

   which is an urgent action.=20


4.  Security Considerations

   [RFC5559] provides a general description of the security
   considerations for PCN. This memo does not introduce additional=20
   security considerations.




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Internet-Draft       PCN Signaling requirements             April 2011


5.  IANA Considerations

   This memo includes no request to IANA.


6.  Acknowledgements

   We would like to acknowledge the members of the PCN working group for
   the discussions that generated the contents of this memo.


7.  References

7.1.  Normative References

   [RFC2119]  Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate
              Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997.

   [RFC5559]  Eardley, P., "Pre-Congestion Notification (PCN)
              Architecture", RFC 5559, June 2009.

   [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08] T. Taylor, A, Charny,=20
              F. Huang, G. Karagiannis, M. Menth, "PCN Boundary Node=20
              Behaviour for the Controlled Load (CL) Mode of Operation=20
              (Work in progress)", December 2010.

   [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05] A. Charny, J. Zhang,=20
              G.  Karagiannis, M. Menth, T. Taylor, "PCN Boundary Node=20
              Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode of Operation=20
              (Work in progress)", December 2010.


7.2.  Informative References

   [RFC2205]   Braden, B., Zhang, L., Berson, S., Herzog, S., and S.
               Jamin, "Resource ReSerVation Protocol (RSVP) -- Version 1
               Functional Specification", RFC 2205, September 1997.
   [RFC3175]   Baker, F., Iturralde, C. Le Faucher, F., Davie, B., =20
               "Aggregation of RSVP for IPv4 and IPv6 Reservations",=20
               RFC 3175, 2001.

   [RFC3209]   Awduche, D., Berger, L., Gan, D., Li, T., Srinivasan, V.,
               and G. Swallow, "RSVP-TE: Extensions to RSVP for LSP
               Tunnels", RFC 3209, December 2001.

   [RFC3473]   Berger, L., "Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching
               (GMPLS) Signaling Resource ReserVation Protocol-Traffic
               Engineering (RSVP-TE) Extensions", RFC 3473,
               January 2003.

   [RFC4804]   F. Le Faucheur, "Aggregation of Resource ReSerVation
               Protocol (RSVP) Reservations over MPLS TE/DS-TE Tunnels", =

               RFC 4804, February 2007.

Karagiannis, et al.   Expires October 04, 2011                [Page 6]

Internet-Draft       PCN Signaling requirements             April 2011


Authors' Addresses

   Georgios Karagiannis
   University of Twente
   P.O. Box 217
   7500 AE Enschede, =20
   The Netherlands=20
   EMail: g.karagiannis@ewi.utwente.nl =20

   Tom Taylor=20
   Huawei Technologies
   1852 Lorraine Ave.
   Ottawa, Ontario  K1H 6Z8
   Canada
   Phone: +1 613 680 2675
   Email: tom111.taylor@bell.net

   Kwok Ho Chan
   Huawei Technologies
   125 Nagog Park
   Acton, MA  01720
   USA
   Email: khchan@huawei.com

   Michael Menth
   University of Tuebingen
   Department of Computer Science
   Chair of Communication Networks
   Sand 13
   Tuebingen  72076
   Germany
   Phone: +49 7071 29 70505
   Email: menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de

   Philip Eardley
   BT
   B54/77, Sirius House Adastral Park Martlesham Heath
   Ipswich, Suffolk  IP5 3RE
   United Kingdom
   EMail: philip.eardley@bt.com
















Karagiannis, et al.   Expires October 04, 2011                [Page 7]

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Subject: [PCN] can we start the WGLC on draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03?
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Dear all
 
After getting the okay from Phil, I have submitted the 03 version of the
signaling requirements draft, see below:
 
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
 
Steve or Scott can you please start a PCN WGLC on this version (03) of the
draft asap?
 
Best regards,
Georgios
 

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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
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class=3D254040412-05042011>Dear all</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D254040412-05042011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D254040412-05042011>After getting the okay from Phil, I have =
submitted the=20
03 version of the signaling requirements draft, see =
below:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D254040412-05042011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D254040412-05042011><A=20
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.t=
xt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt</=
A></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D254040412-05042011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D254040412-05042011>Steve or Scott can you please start a PCN =
WGLC on this=20
version (03) of the draft asap?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D254040412-05042011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D254040412-05042011>Best regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
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class=3D254040412-05042011>Georgios</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
	Pages           : 7
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Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting quality of
service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv domain. The 
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domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the PCN-egress-
node to the decision point;(2) the decision point may ask the PCN-
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pertain in particular to two edge behaviours, "controlled load (CL)" 
and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08], 
[draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].

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Hi Georgios, hi all,

I quickly went over the draft and fixed some nits. I think it is in good 
shape now. Georgios, please take care of my minor corrections for the 
next version of the doc!

Best wishes,

     Michael

Am 05.04.2011 14:15, schrieb Internet-Drafts@ietf.org:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF.
>
>
> 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 7
> 	Date            : 2011-04-05
>
> Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting quality of
> service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv domain. The
> overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo
> describes the requirements for the signaling applied within the PCN
> domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the PCN-egress-
> node to the decision point;(2) the decision point may ask the PCN-
> ingress-node to measure, and report back, the rate of PCN-traffic
> between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The decision point may be
> either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a centralized node (in
> the latter case, (2) is not required). The signaling requirements
> pertain in particular to two edge behaviours, "controlled load (CL)"
> and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


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    Hi Georgios, hi all,<br>
    <br>
    I quickly went over the draft and fixed some nits. I think it is in
    good shape now. Georgios, please take care of my minor corrections
    for the next version of the doc!<br>
    <br>
    Best wishes,<br>
    <br>
    =A0=A0=A0 Michael<br>
    <br>
    Am 05.04.2011 14:15, schrieb <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org:">Internet-Drafts@ietf.org:</a>
    <blockquote cite=3D"mid:20110405121501.17256.4322.idtracker@localhost=
"
      type=3D"cite">
      <pre wrap=3D"">A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line I=
nternet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion Notificati=
on Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) Congestion Inform=
ation in a DiffServ Domain
	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
	Pages           : 7
	Date            : 2011-04-05

Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting quality of
service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv domain. The=20
overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo=20
describes the requirements for the signaling applied within the PCN=20
domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the PCN-egress-
node to the decision point;(2) the decision point may ask the PCN-
ingress-node to measure, and report back, the rate of PCN-traffic=20
between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The decision point may be=20
either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a centralized node (in=20
the latter case, (2) is not required). The signaling requirements=20
pertain in particular to two edge behaviours, "controlled load (CL)"=20
and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],=20
[draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-d=
rafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt">http://www.ietf.org/i=
nternet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt</a>

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-dr=
afts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a>

Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.
</pre>
      <pre wrap=3D"">
<fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
PCN mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:PCN@ietf.org">PCN@ie=
tf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/pcn">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de"=
>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www-kn.informatik.uni-t=
uebingen.de">http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de</a>
</pre>
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Content-Type: text/plain;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Internet Engineering Task Force                           G. Karagiannis 
Internet-Draft                                      University of Twente
Intended status: Informational                                 T. Taylor
Expires: October 04, 2011                                        K. Chan
                                                     Huawei Technologies
                                                                M. Menth
                                                 University of Tuebingen
                                                              P. Eardley
                                                                      BT
                                                          April 04, 2011
                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                        


    Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) Congestion Information in a  
                           DiffServ Domain
                  draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03

Abstract

   Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting quality of
   service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv domain. The 
   overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo 
   describes the requirements for the signaling applied within the PCN 
   domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the PCN-egress-
   node to the decision point;(2) the decision point may ask the PCN-
   ingress-node to measure, and report back, the rate of PCN-traffic 
   between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The decision point may be 
   either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a centralized node (in 
   the latter case, (2) is not required). The signaling requirements 
   pertain in particular to two edge behaviours, "controlled load (CL)" 
   and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08], 
   [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].


Status of this Memo

This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the
   provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79.

   Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF).  Note that other groups may also distribute
   working documents as Internet-Drafts.  The list of current Internet-
   Drafts is at http://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/.

   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
   time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."

   This Internet-Draft will expire on September 02, 2011.
   





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Copyright Notice

Copyright (c) 2010 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the
   document authors.  All rights reserved.

   Copyright (c) 2011 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the
   document authors.  All rights reserved.

   This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal
   Provisions Relating to IETF Documents
   (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of
   publication of this document.  Please review these documents
   carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect
   to this document.  Code Components extracted from this document must
   include Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of
   the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without warranty as
   described in the Simplified BSD License.


Requirements Language

   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
   document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].

Table of Contents
1.  Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
2.  Signaling Requirements for Messages from the PCN-Egress-Nodes to 
    Decision Point(s) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  3
    2.1.  Specification of Flow Identifiers  . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
3.  Signaling Requirements for Messages between Decision Point(s) and 
    PCN-Ingress-Nodes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  5
4.  Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  5
5.  IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  6
6.  Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   6
7.  References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
    7.1.  Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
    7.2.  Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
    Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   7

















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Internet-Draft       PCN Signaling requirements             April 2011


1.  Introduction

   The main objective of Pre-Congestion Notification (PCN) is to support 
   the quality of service (QoS) of inelastic flows within a Diffserv 
   domain in a simple, scalable, and robust fashion.  Two mechanisms 
   are used: admission control and flow termination. Admission control 
   is used to decide whether to admit or block a new flow request while 
   flow termination is used in abnormal circumstances to decide
   whether to terminate some of the existing flows.  To support these 
   two features, the overall rate of PCN-traffic is metered on every 
   link in the domain, and PCN-packets are appropriately marked when 
   certain configured rates are exceeded. These configured rates are 
   below the rate of the link thus providing notification to boundary 
   nodes about overloads before any congestion occurs (hence "pre-
   congestion" notification). The PCN-egress-nodes measure the rates of 
   differently marked PCN traffic in periodic intervals and report these 
   rates to the decision points for admission control and flow 
   termination, based on which they take their decisions. The decision 
   points may be collocated with the PCN-ingress-nodes or their function 
   may be implemented in a centralized node.
   For more details see[RFC5559, [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08], 
   [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].

   This memo specifies the requirements on signaling protocols:
   o to carry reports from a PCN-egress-node to the decision point,
   o to carry requests from the decision point to a PCN-ingress-node that   
     trigger the PCN-ingress-node to measure the PCN-sent-rate,
   o to carry reports, from a PCN-ingress-node to the decision 
     point.

   The latter two messages are only needed if the decision point and PCN-
   ingress-node are not collocated.


2.  Signaling Requirements for Messages from the PCN-Egress-Nodes to 
    Decision Point(s)

   The PCN-egress-node measures, per ingress-egress-aggregate, the rates 
   of differently marked PCN-traffic in regular intervals. The 
   measurement intervals are recommended to take a fixed value between 
   100 ms and 500 ms, see [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08], 
   [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05]. At the end of each measurement 
   interval, the PCN-egress-node calculates the congestion-level-estimate     
   (CLE) based on these quantities. The PCN-egress-node MAY be configured 
   to record a set of identifiers of PCN-flows for which it received 
   excess-traffic-marked packets during the last measurement interval.  
   The latter may be useful to perform flow termination in networks with 
   multipath routing.

   At the end of each measurement interval, or less frequently if 
   "optional report suppression" is activated, see 
   [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08], [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge- 
   behaviour-05], the PCN-egress-node sends a report to the decision 
   point. 


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Internet-Draft       PCN Signaling requirements             April 2011

   For the SM edge behaviour, the report MUST contain:
   o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the identifier of the 
     PCN-egress-node (typically their IP addresses); together they 
     specify the ingress-egress-aggregate to which the report refers,
   o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in octets/second,
   o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
   o the congestion-level-estimate, which is a number between zero and 
     one.

   For the CL edge behaviour, the report MUST contain:
   o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the identifier of the 
     PCN-egress-node (typically their IP addresses); together they 
     specify the ingress-egress-aggregate to which the report refers,
   o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in 
     octets/second,
   o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in octets/second,

   For both CL and SM edge behaviours, the report MAY also contain:
   o a set of flow identifiers (see Section 2.1).

   The signaling report can either be sent directly to the decision 
   point or it can "piggy-back", i.e. be included within some other 
   message that passes through the PCN-egress-node and then the decision 
   point. 

   Signaling messages SHOULD have a higher priority than data packets to 
   deliver them quickly and to avoid that they are dropped in case of 
   overload. 

   The load generated by the signaling protocol SHOULD be minimized. We 
   give three examples that may help to achieve that goal:
   o Piggy-backing the reports by the PCN-egress-nodes to the decision      
     point(s) onto other signaling messages that are already in place.
   o Reducing the amount of reports to be sent by optional report 
     suppression.
   o combining reports for different ingress-egress-aggregates in a 
     single message (if they are for the same decision point).

   As PCN reports are sent regularly, additional reliability mechanisms    
   are not needed. This also holds in the presence of optional report 
   suppression, as reports are sent periodically if actions by the  
   decision point(s) are needed, see [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-
   -08], [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].


2.1 Specification of Flow Identifiers

   The representation of a flow identifier depends on the surrounding 
   environment, e.g., pure IP, MPLS, GMPLS, etc. Examples of such flow 
   identifier representations can be found in [RFC2205], [RFC3175] 
   [RFC3209], [RFC3473], [RFC4804]. 

   In pure IP networks, the identifier may consist of a subset of the 
   following information:

   o  source IP address;

Karagiannis, et al.   Expires October 04, 2011                [Page 4]

Internet-Draft       PCN Signaling requirements             April 2011

   o  destination IP address;

   o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;

   o  flow label (typical for IPv6);

   o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data; 

   o  DSCP/TOS field;

   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;

   o  IP address of PCN-egress-node 


3.  Signaling Requirements for Messages between Decision Point(s) and 
    PCN-Ingress-Nodes 

   Through request-response signaling between the decision point and PCN-
   ingress-node, the decision point requests and in response the PCN-
   ingress-node measures and reports the PCN-sent-rate for a specific 
   ingress-egress-aggregate. Signaling is needed only if the decision 
   point and PCN-ingress-node are not collocated. 

   The request MUST contain:
   o an indication that the PCN-sent-rate is requested,
   o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the identifier of the  
     PCN-egress-node; together they determine the ingress-egress-
     aggregate for which the PCN-sent-rate is requested,
   o the identifier of the decision point that requests the PCN-sent-
     rate.

   The report MUST contain:
   o an indication that the reported data is a PCN-sent-rate,
   o the PCN-sent-rate in octets/second,
   o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the identifier of the 
     PCN-egress-node. 

   The request MUST be addressed to the PCN-ingress-node, and the report 
   MUST be addressed to the decision point that requested it.

   The request and the report SHOULD be sent with high priority and 
   reliably, because they are sent only when flow termination is needed, 
   which is an urgent action. 


4.  Security Considerations

   [RFC5559] provides a general description of the security
   considerations for PCN. This memo does not introduce additional 
   security considerations.




Karagiannis, et al.   Expires October 04, 2011                [Page 5]

Internet-Draft       PCN Signaling requirements             April 2011


5.  IANA Considerations

   This memo includes no request to IANA.


6.  Acknowledgements

   We would like to acknowledge the members of the PCN working group for
   the discussions that generated the contents of this memo.


7.  References

7.1.  Normative References

   [RFC2119]  Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate
              Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997.

   [RFC5559]  Eardley, P., "Pre-Congestion Notification (PCN)
              Architecture", RFC 5559, June 2009.

   [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08] T. Taylor, A, Charny, 
              F. Huang, G. Karagiannis, M. Menth, "PCN Boundary Node 
              Behaviour for the Controlled Load (CL) Mode of Operation 
              (Work in progress)", December 2010.

   [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05] A. Charny, J. Zhang, 
              G.  Karagiannis, M. Menth, T. Taylor, "PCN Boundary Node 
              Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode of Operation 
              (Work in progress)", December 2010.


7.2.  Informative References

   [RFC2205]   Braden, B., Zhang, L., Berson, S., Herzog, S., and S.
               Jamin, "Resource ReSerVation Protocol (RSVP) -- Version 1
               Functional Specification", RFC 2205, September 1997.
   [RFC3175]   Baker, F., Iturralde, C. Le Faucher, F., Davie, B.,  
               "Aggregation of RSVP for IPv4 and IPv6 Reservations", 
               RFC 3175, 2001.

   [RFC3209]   Awduche, D., Berger, L., Gan, D., Li, T., Srinivasan, V.,
               and G. Swallow, "RSVP-TE: Extensions to RSVP for LSP
               Tunnels", RFC 3209, December 2001.

   [RFC3473]   Berger, L., "Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching
               (GMPLS) Signaling Resource ReserVation Protocol-Traffic
               Engineering (RSVP-TE) Extensions", RFC 3473,
               January 2003.

   [RFC4804]   F. Le Faucheur, "Aggregation of Resource ReSerVation
               Protocol (RSVP) Reservations over MPLS TE/DS-TE Tunnels", 
               RFC 4804, February 2007.

Karagiannis, et al.   Expires October 04, 2011                [Page 6]

Internet-Draft       PCN Signaling requirements             April 2011


Authors' Addresses

   Georgios Karagiannis
   University of Twente
   P.O. Box 217
   7500 AE Enschede,  
   The Netherlands 
   EMail: g.karagiannis@ewi.utwente.nl  

   Tom Taylor 
   Huawei Technologies
   1852 Lorraine Ave.
   Ottawa, Ontario  K1H 6Z8
   Canada
   Phone: +1 613 680 2675
   Email: tom111.taylor@bell.net

   Kwok Ho Chan
   Huawei Technologies
   125 Nagog Park
   Acton, MA  01720
   USA
   Email: khchan@huawei.com

   Michael Menth
   University of Tuebingen
   Department of Computer Science
   Chair of Communication Networks
   Sand 13
   Tuebingen  72076
   Germany
   Phone: +49 7071 29 70505
   Email: menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de

   Philip Eardley
   BT
   B54/77, Sirius House Adastral Park Martlesham Heath
   Ipswich, Suffolk  IP5 3RE
   United Kingdom
   EMail: philip.eardley@bt.com
















Karagiannis, et al.   Expires October 04, 2011                [Page 7]

--------------020906090307040807010802--

From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Wed Apr  6 01:30:24 2011
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To: "'Michael Menth'" <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>, <pcn@ietf.org>
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Hi Michael
 
Thanks for the comments!
 
I agree with all comments, except the following one:

Issue  2: Regarding flow identifiers, the following is not needed: 
   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node; 
  o  IP address of PCN-egress-node 

First of all please note that these are needed in the situation that the
flow ID identifies an aggregated flow. In this case  the "IP address of
PCN-ingress-node" and the "IP address of PCN-egress-node" are, among other
information, required.
Moreover please note that before the list with bullets the following
sentence is used:
"In pure IP networks, the identifier may consist of a subset of the
following information:". 
This means that in some situations you can use a subset of this list to
identify an individual flow and in other cases you can use a subset of the
same list to identify an aggregated flow.


Secondly I thought that during the IETF meeting we discussed the same issue
and there was an agreement to have this information in the flow identifier.
!?


Best regards,
Georgios


 






________________________________

	From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Michael Menth
	Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 23:46
	To: pcn@ietf.org
	Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
	
	
	Hi Georgios, hi all,
	
	I quickly went over the draft and fixed some nits. I think it is in
good shape now. Georgios, please take care of my minor corrections for the
next version of the doc!
	
	Best wishes,
	
	    Michael
	
	Am 05.04.2011 14:15, schrieb Internet-Drafts@ietf.org: 

		A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
Internet-Drafts directories.
		This draft is a work item of the Congestion and
Pre-Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF.
		
		
			Title           : Requirements for Signaling of
(Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
			Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
			Filename        :
draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
			Pages           : 7
			Date            : 2011-04-05
		
		Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting
quality of
		service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv domain.
The 
		overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo

		describes the requirements for the signaling applied within
the PCN 
		domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
PCN-egress-
		node to the decision point;(2) the decision point may ask
the PCN-
		ingress-node to measure, and report back, the rate of
PCN-traffic 
		between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The decision point
may be 
		either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a centralized
node (in 
		the latter case, (2) is not required). The signaling
requirements 
		pertain in particular to two edge behaviours, "controlled
load (CL)" 
		and "single marking (SM)"
[draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08], 
		[draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
		
		A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
	
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
.txt
		
		Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
		ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
		
		Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail
reader
		implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version
of the
		Internet-Draft.
		
		
		_______________________________________________
		PCN mailing list
		PCN@ietf.org
		https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
		


	-- 
	Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
	University of Tuebingen
	Faculty of Science
	Department of Computer Science
	Chair of Communication Networks
	Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
	phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
	fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
	mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
	http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
	




From menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Wed Apr  6 02:01:41 2011
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Hi Georgios,

in the meeting (and in fact days before!) we agreed that we determine 
ingress-egress-aggregates by the IP addresses of the PCN-ingress-node 
and PCN-egress-node.

The PCN-egress-node gains the information about the PCN-ingress-node 
somehow and sends a report to the PCN-ingress-node. Therefore, the 
information about the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node is already 
there. Furthermore, the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node do not 
further characterize any aggregate flows at least to my understanding. 
Therefore, I think that adding to the description of flows their 
PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node is 1) redundant and 2) not helpful 
and, therefore, rather confuses readers.

Best wishes,

     Michael

Am 06.04.2011 10:31, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
> Hi Michael
>
> Thanks for the comments!
>
> I agree with all comments, except the following one:
>
> Issue  2: Regarding flow identifiers, the following is not needed:
>     o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>
> First of all please note that these are needed in the situation that the
> flow ID identifies an aggregated flow. In this case  the "IP address of
> PCN-ingress-node" and the "IP address of PCN-egress-node" are, among other
> information, required.
> Moreover please note that before the list with bullets the following
> sentence is used:
> "In pure IP networks, the identifier may consist of a subset of the
> following information:".
> This means that in some situations you can use a subset of this list to
> identify an individual flow and in other cases you can use a subset of the
> same list to identify an aggregated flow.
>
>
> Secondly I thought that during the IETF meeting we discussed the same issue
> and there was an agreement to have this information in the flow identifier.
> !?
>
>
> Best regards,
> Georgios
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> 	From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Michael Menth
> 	Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 23:46
> 	To: pcn@ietf.org
> 	Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
> Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> 	
> 	
> 	Hi Georgios, hi all,
> 	
> 	I quickly went over the draft and fixed some nits. I think it is in
> good shape now. Georgios, please take care of my minor corrections for the
> next version of the doc!
> 	
> 	Best wishes,
> 	
> 	    Michael
> 	
> 	Am 05.04.2011 14:15, schrieb Internet-Drafts@ietf.org:
>
> 		A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> Internet-Drafts directories.
> 		This draft is a work item of the Congestion and
> Pre-Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> 		
> 		
> 			Title           : Requirements for Signaling of
> (Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> 			Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> 			Filename        :
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> 			Pages           : 7
> 			Date            : 2011-04-05
> 		
> 		Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting
> quality of
> 		service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv domain.
> The
> 		overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo
>
> 		describes the requirements for the signaling applied within
> the PCN
> 		domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> PCN-egress-
> 		node to the decision point;(2) the decision point may ask
> the PCN-
> 		ingress-node to measure, and report back, the rate of
> PCN-traffic
> 		between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The decision point
> may be
> 		either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a centralized
> node (in
> 		the latter case, (2) is not required). The signaling
> requirements
> 		pertain in particular to two edge behaviours, "controlled
> load (CL)"
> 		and "single marking (SM)"
> [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> 		[draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> 		
> 		A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> 	
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> .txt
> 		
> 		Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> 		ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 		
> 		Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail
> reader
> 		implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version
> of the
> 		Internet-Draft.
> 		
> 		
> 		_______________________________________________
> 		PCN mailing list
> 		PCN@ietf.org
> 		https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 		
>
>
> 	--
> 	Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> 	University of Tuebingen
> 	Faculty of Science
> 	Department of Computer Science
> 	Chair of Communication Networks
> 	Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> 	phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> 	fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> 	mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> 	http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> 	
>
>
>

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Wed Apr  6 02:54:33 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: "'Michael Menth'" <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
References: <20110405121501.17256.4322.idtracker@localhost> <4D9B8D7F.60406@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <C76D8D1F06C441A38ED6C370B3EF77FB@dynamic.ewi.utwente.nl> <4D9C2C56.6060909@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
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Hi Michael

This issue is about flow ID, and is not about reporting addresses. 
Regarding identification of aggregated flows, please read:

http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3175.txt

Since IEAs are used in PCN, this will mean that the signaling protocol used
to carry PCN information from PCN-egress-node to decision point 
should be able to identify IEAs (ingress-egress-aggregates).

In PCN an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA ( 
should be at least identified by the combination of:

  o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
  o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
  o  DSCP field

Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual flows are belonging
and using such an IEA. 

In other words this information is not redundant, but it is required.


Best regards,
Georgios



 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de] 
> Sent: woensdag 6 april 2011 11:03
> To: Georgios Karagiannis
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D 
> Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> 
> Hi Georgios,
> 
> in the meeting (and in fact days before!) we agreed that we 
> determine ingress-egress-aggregates by the IP addresses of 
> the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node.
> 
> The PCN-egress-node gains the information about the 
> PCN-ingress-node somehow and sends a report to the 
> PCN-ingress-node. Therefore, the information about the 
> PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node is already there. 
> Furthermore, the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node do not 
> further characterize any aggregate flows at least to my 
> understanding. 
> Therefore, I think that adding to the description of flows 
> their PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node is 1) redundant 
> and 2) not helpful and, therefore, rather confuses readers.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
>      Michael
> 
> Am 06.04.2011 10:31, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
> > Hi Michael
> >
> > Thanks for the comments!
> >
> > I agree with all comments, except the following one:
> >
> > Issue  2: Regarding flow identifiers, the following is not needed:
> >     o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
> >    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
> >
> > First of all please note that these are needed in the 
> situation that 
> > the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow. In this case  the "IP 
> > address of PCN-ingress-node" and the "IP address of 
> PCN-egress-node" 
> > are, among other information, required.
> > Moreover please note that before the list with bullets the 
> following 
> > sentence is used:
> > "In pure IP networks, the identifier may consist of a subset of the 
> > following information:".
> > This means that in some situations you can use a subset of 
> this list 
> > to identify an individual flow and in other cases you can 
> use a subset 
> > of the same list to identify an aggregated flow.
> >
> >
> > Secondly I thought that during the IETF meeting we 
> discussed the same 
> > issue and there was an agreement to have this information 
> in the flow identifier.
> > !?
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > 	From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org 
> [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of 
> > Michael Menth
> > 	Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 23:46
> > 	To: pcn@ietf.org
> > 	Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
> > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > 	
> > 	
> > 	Hi Georgios, hi all,
> > 	
> > 	I quickly went over the draft and fixed some nits. I 
> think it is in 
> > good shape now. Georgios, please take care of my minor 
> corrections for 
> > the next version of the doc!
> > 	
> > 	Best wishes,
> > 	
> > 	    Michael
> > 	
> > 	Am 05.04.2011 14:15, schrieb Internet-Drafts@ietf.org:
> >
> > 		A New Internet-Draft is available from the 
> on-line Internet-Drafts 
> > directories.
> > 		This draft is a work item of the Congestion and 
> Pre-Congestion 
> > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > 		
> > 		
> > 			Title           : Requirements for Signaling of
> > (Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > 			Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > 			Filename        :
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > 			Pages           : 7
> > 			Date            : 2011-04-05
> > 		
> > 		Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for 
> protecting quality 
> > of
> > 		service for inelastic traffic admitted to a 
> Diffserv domain.
> > The
> > 		overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 
> 5559. This memo
> >
> > 		describes the requirements for the signaling 
> applied within the PCN
> > 		domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> > PCN-egress-
> > 		node to the decision point;(2) the decision 
> point may ask the PCN-
> > 		ingress-node to measure, and report back, the 
> rate of PCN-traffic
> > 		between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The 
> decision point may be
> > 		either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or 
> a centralized node 
> > (in
> > 		the latter case, (2) is not required). The 
> signaling requirements
> > 		pertain in particular to two edge behaviours, 
> "controlled load (CL)"
> > 		and "single marking (SM)"
> > [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> > 		[draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > 		
> > 		A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > 	
> > 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requireme
> > nts-03
> > .txt
> > 		
> > 		Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > 		ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > 		
> > 		Below is the data which will enable a MIME 
> compliant mail reader
> > 		implementation to automatically retrieve the 
> ASCII version of the
> > 		Internet-Draft.
> > 		
> > 		
> > 		_______________________________________________
> > 		PCN mailing list
> > 		PCN@ietf.org
> > 		https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > 		
> >
> >
> > 	--
> > 	Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > 	University of Tuebingen
> > 	Faculty of Science
> > 	Department of Computer Science
> > 	Chair of Communication Networks
> > 	Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > 	phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > 	fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > 	mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > 	http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > 	
> >
> >
> >
> 
> --
> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> University of Tuebingen
> Faculty of Science
> Department of Computer Science
> Chair of Communication Networks
> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> 



From slblake@petri-meat.com  Wed Apr  6 06:55:11 2011
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From: Steven Blake <slblake@petri-meat.com>
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Subject: [PCN] WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
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This begins the WGLC for 

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03

to end Wednesday, April 20.  Please send comments to the list.


Regards,

// Steve


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Thu Apr  7 02:18:24 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
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Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 11:19:48 +0200
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Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
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Hi all

Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts and what we
currently have in the 03 version of the signaling requirements draft, I see
that some information associated with the information that a signaling
protocol should carry is missing. In particular, we are not specifying what
is the maximum value of the rates that a signaling protocol should be able
to carry. This is important in order to specify what will be maximum length
of the field that carries such a maximum rate.

In particular we need to have these maximum values for the following rates:

   o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in octets/second,
   o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
   o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in 
     octets/second,
   o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in octets/second,


We could use a field of 32 bits long => Maximum rate value = 2^32 =
4294967296 octets/s)

Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable? 

Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate value in the signaling
requirements draft, 
or should we do this in the edge behaviour drafts?

Best regards, 
Georgios



> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: [PCN] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line 
> Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Congestion and 
> Pre-Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 
> 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) 
> Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 7
> 	Date            : 2011-04-05
> 
> Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting 
> quality of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a 
> Diffserv domain. The overall PCN architecture is described in 
> RFC 5559. This memo describes the requirements for the 
> signaling applied within the PCN
> domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the 
> PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision point 
> may ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back, 
> the rate of PCN-traffic between this pair of 
> PCN-boundary-nodes. The decision point may be either 
> collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a centralized node 
> (in the latter case, (2) is not required). The signaling 
> requirements pertain in particular to two edge behaviours, 
> "controlled load (CL)" 
> and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
equirements-03.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail 
> reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII 
> version of the Internet-Draft.
> 



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I dont think this is needed in either signalling reqts or edge behaviour do=
cs. I think this would be up to the actual signalling protocol to define, o=
r perhaps the configuration in a particular PCN-domain.
Note also that defining a field length doesn't define the max value, as thi=
s depends on the encoding [for instance, 1 byte might be an exponent]

-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Georg=
ios Karagiannis
Sent: 07 April 2011 10:20
To: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for draft-ietf-pcn-signaling=
-requirements-03.txt

Hi all

Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts and what we
currently have in the 03 version of the signaling requirements draft, I see
that some information associated with the information that a signaling
protocol should carry is missing. In particular, we are not specifying what
is the maximum value of the rates that a signaling protocol should be able
to carry. This is important in order to specify what will be maximum length
of the field that carries such a maximum rate.

In particular we need to have these maximum values for the following rates:

   o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in octets/second,
   o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
   o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in=20
     octets/second,
   o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in octets/second,


We could use a field of 32 bits long =3D> Maximum rate value =3D 2^32 =3D
4294967296 octets/s)

Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable?=20

Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate value in the signaling
requirements draft,=20
or should we do this in the edge behaviour drafts?

Best regards,=20
Georgios



> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: [PCN] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line=20
> Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Congestion and=20
> Pre-Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF.
>=20
>=20
> 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-)=20
> Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 7
> 	Date            : 2011-04-05
>=20
> Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting=20
> quality of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a=20
> Diffserv domain. The overall PCN architecture is described in=20
> RFC 5559. This memo describes the requirements for the=20
> signaling applied within the PCN
> domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the=20
> PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision point=20
> may ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back,=20
> the rate of PCN-traffic between this pair of=20
> PCN-boundary-nodes. The decision point may be either=20
> collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a centralized node=20
> (in the latter case, (2) is not required). The signaling=20
> requirements pertain in particular to two edge behaviours,=20
> "controlled load (CL)"=20
> and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
>=20
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
equirements-03.txt
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail=20
> reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII=20
> version of the Internet-Draft.
>=20


_______________________________________________
PCN mailing list
PCN@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Thu Apr  7 02:54:21 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: <philip.eardley@bt.com>, <pcn@ietf.org>
References: <20110405121501.17256.4322.idtracker@localhost> <2456373BE0C048BC81789AC0BD960800@dynamic.ewi.utwente.nl> <9510D26531EF184D9017DF24659BB87F3290213FC5@EMV65-UKRD.domain1.systemhost.net>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required fordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
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Hi Phil

You are right about the encoding. Therefore, we might also need to define
the way of how this value is encoded. 

In RFC 2210 all the rate values are encoded using: 32-bit IEEE floating
point number.

I am not sure if it is good lo leave this decision to other desigbn teams
than the PCN WG.

The values of these rates are affecting the accuracy of the provided PCN
solutions, 
in particular when they get another value than they should.

Best regards,
Georgios










> -----Original Message-----
> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com] 
> Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:34
> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required 
> fordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> 
> I dont think this is needed in either signalling reqts or 
> edge behaviour docs. I think this would be up to the actual 
> signalling protocol to define, or perhaps the configuration 
> in a particular PCN-domain.
> Note also that defining a field length doesn't define the max 
> value, as this depends on the encoding [for instance, 1 byte 
> might be an exponent]
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> Sent: 07 April 2011 10:20
> To: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for 
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> 
> Hi all
> 
> Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts and 
> what we currently have in the 03 version of the signaling 
> requirements draft, I see that some information associated 
> with the information that a signaling protocol should carry 
> is missing. In particular, we are not specifying what is the 
> maximum value of the rates that a signaling protocol should 
> be able to carry. This is important in order to specify what 
> will be maximum length of the field that carries such a maximum rate.
> 
> In particular we need to have these maximum values for the 
> following rates:
> 
>    o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in octets/second,
>    o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
>    o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in 
>      octets/second,
>    o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in 
> octets/second,
> 
> 
> We could use a field of 32 bits long => Maximum rate value = 2^32 =
> 4294967296 octets/s)
> 
> Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable? 
> 
> Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate value in 
> the signaling requirements draft, or should we do this in the 
> edge behaviour drafts?
> 
> Best regards,
> Georgios
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> > Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
> > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: [PCN] I-D 
> Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > 
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line 
> > Internet-Drafts directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Congestion and 
> > Pre-Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > 
> > 
> > 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) 
> > Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > 	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > 	Pages           : 7
> > 	Date            : 2011-04-05
> > 
> > Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting 
> > quality of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a 
> > Diffserv domain. The overall PCN architecture is described in 
> > RFC 5559. This memo describes the requirements for the 
> > signaling applied within the PCN
> > domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the 
> > PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision point 
> > may ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back, 
> > the rate of PCN-traffic between this pair of 
> > PCN-boundary-nodes. The decision point may be either 
> > collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a centralized node 
> > (in the latter case, (2) is not required). The signaling 
> > requirements pertain in particular to two edge behaviours, 
> > "controlled load (CL)" 
> > and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> > [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > 
> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
> equirements-03.txt
> > 
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > 
> > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail 
> > reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII 
> > version of the Internet-Draft.
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 



From bob.briscoe@bt.com  Mon Apr 11 07:51:08 2011
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Subject: [PCN] PCN didn't meet in Prague, apparently
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Scott,

I assume there's been some sort of mistake. According to the IETF-80 
proceedings PCN didn't meet in Prague:
<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/80/tsv.html>

(However, using the meeting materials server, I've managed to get the 
presentation I was looking for)

Cheers


Bob


________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design 


From philip.eardley@bt.com  Wed Apr 13 05:57:17 2011
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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:57:15 +0100
Thread-Topic: [PCN] WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
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Very Minor comments:

S1:
<< o to carry requests from the decision point to a PCN-ingress-node that
     trigger the PCN-ingress-node to measure the PCN-sent-rate,>>
to
<< o to carry requests, from the decision point to a PCN-ingress-node, that
     trigger the PCN-ingress-node to measure the PCN-sent-rate,>>

 << For the CL edge behaviour, the report MUST contain:>>
Add to bulleted list:
  o the congestion-level-estimate, which is a number between zero and
     one.

S3
<<  The request MUST contain:
   o an indication that the PCN-sent-rate is requested>>
<<   The report MUST contain:
   o an indication that the reported data is a PCN-sent-rate,>>
strictly speaking these two bullets are redundant, since the request by def=
inition requests the PCN-sent-rate (there is not a range of things that can=
 be requested)

that's it

best wishes
phil

-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve=
n Blake
Sent: 06 April 2011 14:57
To: pcn
Subject: [PCN] WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03

This begins the WGLC for=20

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03

to end Wednesday, April 20.  Please send comments to the list.


Regards,

// Steve

_______________________________________________
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From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org  Wed Apr 13 08:30:03 2011
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Overview of Pre-Congestion Notification Encoding
	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2011-04-13

The objective of Pre-Congestion Notification (PCN) is to protect the
quality of service (QoS) of inelastic flows within a Diffserv domain.
On every link in the PCN domain, the overall rate of the PCN-traffic
is metered, and PCN-packets are appropriately marked when certain
configured rates are exceeded.  Egress nodes provide decision points
with information about the PCN-marks of PCN-packets which allows them
to take decisions about whether to admit or block a new flow request,
and to terminate some already admitted flows during serious pre-
congestion.

The PCN Working Group explored a number of approaches for encoding
this pre-congestion information into the IP header.  This document
provides details of all those approaches along with an explanation of
the constraints that had to be met by any solution.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.

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From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Wed Apr 13 08:32:19 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: <pcn@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:32:07 +0200
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Subject: [PCN] New version: draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05 (start abbreviated WGLC?)
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Hi all

I have just submitted draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05, see below. 

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05.tx
t

I have used all provided comments, including comments that were provided by
Gorry Fairhust on a paper version of the pcn encoding draft. In the
attachment of this email I am including a pdf (05) version of the draft,
which includes track changes. These track changes show how I have worked out
the comments provided by Gorry Fairhust.

Steve and/or Scott shall we start an abbreviated WGLC on
draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05?

Best regards,
Georgios

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From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Wed Apr 13 08:37:10 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: <philip.eardley@bt.com>, <slblake@petri-meat.com>, <pcn@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
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Hi Phil

Thank you very much, please see in line!
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com
> Sent: woensdag 13 april 2011 14:57
> To: slblake@petri-meat.com; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> 
> Very Minor comments:
> 
> S1:
> << o to carry requests from the decision point to a 
> PCN-ingress-node that
>      trigger the PCN-ingress-node to measure the 
> PCN-sent-rate,>> to << o to carry requests, from the decision 
> point to a PCN-ingress-node, that
>      trigger the PCN-ingress-node to measure the PCN-sent-rate,>>
> 
>  << For the CL edge behaviour, the report MUST contain:>> Add 
> to bulleted list:
>   o the congestion-level-estimate, which is a number between zero and
>      one.

Georgios: Agree, thanks!

> 
> S3
> <<  The request MUST contain:
>    o an indication that the PCN-sent-rate is requested>>
> <<   The report MUST contain:
>    o an indication that the reported data is a 
> PCN-sent-rate,>> strictly speaking these two bullets are 
> redundant, since the request by definition requests the 
> PCN-sent-rate (there is not a range of things that can be requested)

Georgios: Do you mean that in Section 3, the two lists with bullets should
contain only the following information:

   The request MUST contain:
   o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the identifier of the  
     PCN-egress-node; together they determine the ingress-egress-
     aggregate for which the PCN-sent-rate is requested,
   o the identifier of the decision point that requests the PCN-sent-
     rate.

   The report MUST contain:
   o the PCN-sent-rate in octets/second,
   o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the identifier of the 
     PCN-egress-node. 

Okay, I agree!

Best regards,
Georgios

> 
> that's it
> 
> best wishes
> phil
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Steven Blake
> Sent: 06 April 2011 14:57
> To: pcn
> Subject: [PCN] WGLC for draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> 
> This begins the WGLC for 
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> 
> to end Wednesday, April 20.  Please send comments to the list.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> // Steve
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 



From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Wed Apr 13 09:28:27 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
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Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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Hi all

>From the WGLC discussions regarding draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
I identified two open issues:

This email contains the first open issue:
 
Issue_1: It is proposed that draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should
recommend which maximum rate value should be carried by a signaling
protocol.

This will mean that the PCN WG will recommend to the signaling protocol
designers to use a container/field that is able to carry this maximum rate
value (in octets/s).

Question: Do you agree/disagree with the fact that
draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend which maximum rate
value should be carried by a signaling protocol?

Best regards,
Georgios



> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:56
> To: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] Perhaps some additions 
> requiredfordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> 
> Hi Phil
> 
> You are right about the encoding. Therefore, we might also 
> need to define the way of how this value is encoded. 
> 
> In RFC 2210 all the rate values are encoded using: 32-bit 
> IEEE floating point number.
> 
> I am not sure if it is good lo leave this decision to other 
> desigbn teams than the PCN WG.
> 
> The values of these rates are affecting the accuracy of the 
> provided PCN solutions, in particular when they get another 
> value than they should.
> 
> Best regards,
> Georgios
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:34
> > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required 
> > fordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > 
> > I dont think this is needed in either signalling reqts or edge 
> > behaviour docs. I think this would be up to the actual signalling 
> > protocol to define, or perhaps the configuration in a particular 
> > PCN-domain.
> > Note also that defining a field length doesn't define the 
> max value, 
> > as this depends on the encoding [for instance, 1 byte might be an 
> > exponent]
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of 
> > Georgios Karagiannis
> > Sent: 07 April 2011 10:20
> > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for 
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > 
> > Hi all
> > 
> > Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts 
> and what we 
> > currently have in the 03 version of the signaling 
> requirements draft, 
> > I see that some information associated with the information that a 
> > signaling protocol should carry is missing. In particular, 
> we are not 
> > specifying what is the maximum value of the rates that a signaling 
> > protocol should be able to carry. This is important in order to 
> > specify what will be maximum length of the field that 
> carries such a 
> > maximum rate.
> > 
> > In particular we need to have these maximum values for the 
> following 
> > rates:
> > 
> >    o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in octets/second,
> >    o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
> >    o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in 
> >      octets/second,
> >    o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in 
> > octets/second,
> > 
> > 
> > We could use a field of 32 bits long => Maximum rate value = 2^32 =
> > 4294967296 octets/s)
> > 
> > Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable? 
> > 
> > Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate value in the 
> > signaling requirements draft, or should we do this in the edge 
> > behaviour drafts?
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] 
> On Behalf 
> > > Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
> > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: [PCN] I-D
> > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > 
> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line 
> Internet-Drafts 
> > > directories.
> > > This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion 
> > > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) 
> > > Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > > 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > > 	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > 	Pages           : 7
> > > 	Date            : 2011-04-05
> > > 
> > > Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for 
> protecting quality 
> > > of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv 
> domain. The 
> > > overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo 
> > > describes the requirements for the signaling applied 
> within the PCN
> > > domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> > > PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision point may 
> > > ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back, 
> the rate of 
> > > PCN-traffic between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The decision 
> > > point may be either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a 
> > > centralized node (in the latter case, (2) is not required). The 
> > > signaling requirements pertain in particular to two edge 
> behaviours, 
> > > "controlled load (CL)"
> > > and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> > > [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > > 
> > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
> > equirements-03.txt
> > > 
> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > > 
> > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader 
> > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the 
> > > Internet-Draft.
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 



From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Wed Apr 13 09:32:00 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
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Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 2: should IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes be removed from flow ID subset list?
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 Hi all

>From the WGLC discussions regarding draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
I identified two open issues:

This email contains the second open issue:
 
Issue_2: IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes should be removed from flow ID
subset list

draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements specifies that in pure IP networks,
the identifier may consist of a subset of the following information:

   o  source IP address;


   o  destination IP address;

   o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;

   o  flow label (typical for IPv6);

   o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data; 

   o  DSCP/TOS field;

   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;

   o  IP address of PCN-egress-node 


There was a request to remove the following two bullets from the above list:



   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
   o  IP address of PCN-egress-node 

The given reason was: "This does certainly not belong to the flow
identifier."

In my opinion these IP addresses of the PCN-edge-nodes are needed for cases
that the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow. 

Since IEAs (Ingress Egress Aggregates) are used in PCN, this will mean that
the signaling protocol used to carry PCN information from PCN-egress-node to
decision point should be able to identify IEAs.

In PCN, an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA, should be at least
identified by the combination of:

  o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
  o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
  o  DSCP field

Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual flows are belonging
and using such an IEA. 

The currently given flow ID subset list in
draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03 is able to cover both types of flow
IDs (for IEAs and for individual flows).

Question: Do you agree/disagree on removing the IP addresses of the
PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node from the flow ID subset list?



Best regards,
Georgios

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> Sent: woensdag 6 april 2011 11:56
> To: 'Michael Menth'
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D 
> Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> 
> Hi Michael
> 
> This issue is about flow ID, and is not about reporting addresses. 
> Regarding identification of aggregated flows, please read:
> 
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3175.txt
> 
> Since IEAs are used in PCN, this will mean that the signaling 
> protocol used to carry PCN information from PCN-egress-node 
> to decision point should be able to identify IEAs 
> (ingress-egress-aggregates).
> 
> In PCN an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA ( 
> should be at least identified by the combination of:
> 
>   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>   o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>   o  DSCP field
> 
> Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual 
> flows are belonging and using such an IEA. 
> 
> In other words this information is not redundant, but it is required.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Georgios
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de]
> > Sent: woensdag 6 april 2011 11:03
> > To: Georgios Karagiannis
> > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
> > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > 
> > Hi Georgios,
> > 
> > in the meeting (and in fact days before!) we agreed that we 
> determine 
> > ingress-egress-aggregates by the IP addresses of the 
> PCN-ingress-node 
> > and PCN-egress-node.
> > 
> > The PCN-egress-node gains the information about the 
> PCN-ingress-node 
> > somehow and sends a report to the PCN-ingress-node. Therefore, the 
> > information about the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node 
> is already 
> > there.
> > Furthermore, the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node do 
> not further 
> > characterize any aggregate flows at least to my understanding.
> > Therefore, I think that adding to the description of flows their 
> > PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node is 1) redundant and 2) not 
> > helpful and, therefore, rather confuses readers.
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > 
> >      Michael
> > 
> > Am 06.04.2011 10:31, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
> > > Hi Michael
> > >
> > > Thanks for the comments!
> > >
> > > I agree with all comments, except the following one:
> > >
> > > Issue  2: Regarding flow identifiers, the following is not needed:
> > >     o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
> > >    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
> > >
> > > First of all please note that these are needed in the
> > situation that
> > > the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow. In this case  the "IP 
> > > address of PCN-ingress-node" and the "IP address of
> > PCN-egress-node" 
> > > are, among other information, required.
> > > Moreover please note that before the list with bullets the
> > following
> > > sentence is used:
> > > "In pure IP networks, the identifier may consist of a 
> subset of the 
> > > following information:".
> > > This means that in some situations you can use a subset of
> > this list
> > > to identify an individual flow and in other cases you can
> > use a subset
> > > of the same list to identify an aggregated flow.
> > >
> > >
> > > Secondly I thought that during the IETF meeting we
> > discussed the same
> > > issue and there was an agreement to have this information
> > in the flow identifier.
> > > !?
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Georgios
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > 	From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org
> > [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > > Michael Menth
> > > 	Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 23:46
> > > 	To: pcn@ietf.org
> > > 	Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
> > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > 	
> > > 	
> > > 	Hi Georgios, hi all,
> > > 	
> > > 	I quickly went over the draft and fixed some nits. I
> > think it is in
> > > good shape now. Georgios, please take care of my minor
> > corrections for
> > > the next version of the doc!
> > > 	
> > > 	Best wishes,
> > > 	
> > > 	    Michael
> > > 	
> > > 	Am 05.04.2011 14:15, schrieb Internet-Drafts@ietf.org:
> > >
> > > 		A New Internet-Draft is available from the
> > on-line Internet-Drafts
> > > directories.
> > > 		This draft is a work item of the Congestion and
> > Pre-Congestion
> > > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > > 		
> > > 		
> > > 			Title           : Requirements for Signaling of
> > > (Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > > 			Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > > 			Filename        :
> > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > 			Pages           : 7
> > > 			Date            : 2011-04-05
> > > 		
> > > 		Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
> > protecting quality
> > > of
> > > 		service for inelastic traffic admitted to a
> > Diffserv domain.
> > > The
> > > 		overall PCN architecture is described in RFC
> > 5559. This memo
> > >
> > > 		describes the requirements for the signaling
> > applied within the PCN
> > > 		domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> > > PCN-egress-
> > > 		node to the decision point;(2) the decision
> > point may ask the PCN-
> > > 		ingress-node to measure, and report back, the
> > rate of PCN-traffic
> > > 		between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The
> > decision point may be
> > > 		either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or
> > a centralized node
> > > (in
> > > 		the latter case, (2) is not required). The
> > signaling requirements
> > > 		pertain in particular to two edge behaviours,
> > "controlled load (CL)"
> > > 		and "single marking (SM)"
> > > [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> > > 		[draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > > 		
> > > 		A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > 	
> > > 
> > 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requireme
> > > nts-03
> > > .txt
> > > 		
> > > 		Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > > 		ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > > 		
> > > 		Below is the data which will enable a MIME
> > compliant mail reader
> > > 		implementation to automatically retrieve the
> > ASCII version of the
> > > 		Internet-Draft.
> > > 		
> > > 		
> > > 		_______________________________________________
> > > 		PCN mailing list
> > > 		PCN@ietf.org
> > > 		https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > 		
> > >
> > >
> > > 	--
> > > 	Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > 	University of Tuebingen
> > > 	Faculty of Science
> > > 	Department of Computer Science
> > > 	Chair of Communication Networks
> > > 	Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > 	phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > 	fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > 	mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > 	http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > > 	
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > --
> > Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > University of Tuebingen
> > Faculty of Science
> > Department of Computer Science
> > Chair of Communication Networks
> > Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 



From menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Wed Apr 13 13:02:54 2011
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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:02:47 +0200
From: Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 2: should IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes be removed from flow ID subset list?
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Hi Georgios,

I disagree with your proposal. The egress node signals to the decision 
point the IEA anyway from which traffic should be terminated. The IDs of 
marked flows are needed only in case of multipath routing when the 
information about the IEA is not sufficient to choose flows for 
termination. So the argument against the inclusion is twofold:
1) The decision point has already the information about the IEA
2) The information about the IEA is not helpful to denote flows for 
termination when IDs of marked flows are requested.

If you can describe a sensible concrete use case where the inclusion 
still helps, then I may change my mind.

Best wishes,

     Michael

Am 13.04.2011 18:31, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
>   Hi all
>
>  From the WGLC discussions regarding draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> I identified two open issues:
>
> This email contains the second open issue:
>
> Issue_2: IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes should be removed from flow ID
> subset list
>
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements specifies that in pure IP networks,
> the identifier may consist of a subset of the following information:
>
>     o  source IP address;
>
>
>     o  destination IP address;
>
>     o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;
>
>     o  flow label (typical for IPv6);
>
>     o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data;
>
>     o  DSCP/TOS field;
>
>     o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>
>     o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>
>
> There was a request to remove the following two bullets from the above list:
>
>
>
>     o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>     o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>
> The given reason was: "This does certainly not belong to the flow
> identifier."
>
> In my opinion these IP addresses of the PCN-edge-nodes are needed for cases
> that the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow.
>
> Since IEAs (Ingress Egress Aggregates) are used in PCN, this will mean that
> the signaling protocol used to carry PCN information from PCN-egress-node to
> decision point should be able to identify IEAs.
>
> In PCN, an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA, should be at least
> identified by the combination of:
>
>    o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>    o  DSCP field
>
> Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual flows are belonging
> and using such an IEA.
>
> The currently given flow ID subset list in
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03 is able to cover both types of flow
> IDs (for IEAs and for individual flows).
>
> Question: Do you agree/disagree on removing the IP addresses of the
> PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node from the flow ID subset list?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
> Georgios
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
>> Sent: woensdag 6 april 2011 11:56
>> To: 'Michael Menth'
>> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
>> Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>>
>> Hi Michael
>>
>> This issue is about flow ID, and is not about reporting addresses.
>> Regarding identification of aggregated flows, please read:
>>
>> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3175.txt
>>
>> Since IEAs are used in PCN, this will mean that the signaling
>> protocol used to carry PCN information from PCN-egress-node
>> to decision point should be able to identify IEAs
>> (ingress-egress-aggregates).
>>
>> In PCN an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA (
>> should be at least identified by the combination of:
>>
>>    o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>>    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>>    o  DSCP field
>>
>> Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual
>> flows are belonging and using such an IEA.
>>
>> In other words this information is not redundant, but it is required.
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Georgios
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de]
>>> Sent: woensdag 6 april 2011 11:03
>>> To: Georgios Karagiannis
>>> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
>>> Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Georgios,
>>>
>>> in the meeting (and in fact days before!) we agreed that we
>> determine
>>> ingress-egress-aggregates by the IP addresses of the
>> PCN-ingress-node
>>> and PCN-egress-node.
>>>
>>> The PCN-egress-node gains the information about the
>> PCN-ingress-node
>>> somehow and sends a report to the PCN-ingress-node. Therefore, the
>>> information about the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node
>> is already
>>> there.
>>> Furthermore, the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node do
>> not further
>>> characterize any aggregate flows at least to my understanding.
>>> Therefore, I think that adding to the description of flows their
>>> PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node is 1) redundant and 2) not
>>> helpful and, therefore, rather confuses readers.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>>       Michael
>>>
>>> Am 06.04.2011 10:31, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
>>>> Hi Michael
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the comments!
>>>>
>>>> I agree with all comments, except the following one:
>>>>
>>>> Issue  2: Regarding flow identifiers, the following is not needed:
>>>>      o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>>>>     o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>>>>
>>>> First of all please note that these are needed in the
>>> situation that
>>>> the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow. In this case  the "IP
>>>> address of PCN-ingress-node" and the "IP address of
>>> PCN-egress-node"
>>>> are, among other information, required.
>>>> Moreover please note that before the list with bullets the
>>> following
>>>> sentence is used:
>>>> "In pure IP networks, the identifier may consist of a
>> subset of the
>>>> following information:".
>>>> This means that in some situations you can use a subset of
>>> this list
>>>> to identify an individual flow and in other cases you can
>>> use a subset
>>>> of the same list to identify an aggregated flow.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Secondly I thought that during the IETF meeting we
>>> discussed the same
>>>> issue and there was an agreement to have this information
>>> in the flow identifier.
>>>> !?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Georgios
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> 	From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org
>>> [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Michael Menth
>>>> 	Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 23:46
>>>> 	To: pcn@ietf.org
>>>> 	Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
>>>> Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>>>> 	
>>>> 	
>>>> 	Hi Georgios, hi all,
>>>> 	
>>>> 	I quickly went over the draft and fixed some nits. I
>>> think it is in
>>>> good shape now. Georgios, please take care of my minor
>>> corrections for
>>>> the next version of the doc!
>>>> 	
>>>> 	Best wishes,
>>>> 	
>>>> 	    Michael
>>>> 	
>>>> 	Am 05.04.2011 14:15, schrieb Internet-Drafts@ietf.org:
>>>>
>>>> 		A New Internet-Draft is available from the
>>> on-line Internet-Drafts
>>>> directories.
>>>> 		This draft is a work item of the Congestion and
>>> Pre-Congestion
>>>> Notification Working Group of the IETF.
>>>> 		
>>>> 		
>>>> 			Title           : Requirements for Signaling of
>>>> (Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
>>>> 			Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
>>>> 			Filename        :
>>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>>>> 			Pages           : 7
>>>> 			Date            : 2011-04-05
>>>> 		
>>>> 		Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
>>> protecting quality
>>>> of
>>>> 		service for inelastic traffic admitted to a
>>> Diffserv domain.
>>>> The
>>>> 		overall PCN architecture is described in RFC
>>> 5559. This memo
>>>> 		describes the requirements for the signaling
>>> applied within the PCN
>>>> 		domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
>>>> PCN-egress-
>>>> 		node to the decision point;(2) the decision
>>> point may ask the PCN-
>>>> 		ingress-node to measure, and report back, the
>>> rate of PCN-traffic
>>>> 		between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The
>>> decision point may be
>>>> 		either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or
>>> a centralized node
>>>> (in
>>>> 		the latter case, (2) is not required). The
>>> signaling requirements
>>>> 		pertain in particular to two edge behaviours,
>>> "controlled load (CL)"
>>>> 		and "single marking (SM)"
>>>> [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
>>>> 		[draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
>>>> 		
>>>> 		A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>> 	
>>>>
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requireme
>>>> nts-03
>>>> .txt
>>>> 		
>>>> 		Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>> 		ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>> 		
>>>> 		Below is the data which will enable a MIME
>>> compliant mail reader
>>>> 		implementation to automatically retrieve the
>>> ASCII version of the
>>>> 		Internet-Draft.
>>>> 		
>>>> 		
>>>> 		_______________________________________________
>>>> 		PCN mailing list
>>>> 		PCN@ietf.org
>>>> 		https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>> 		
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 	--
>>>> 	Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>>>> 	University of Tuebingen
>>>> 	Faculty of Science
>>>> 	Department of Computer Science
>>>> 	Chair of Communication Networks
>>>> 	Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>>>> 	phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>>>> 	fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>>>> 	mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>>>> 	http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>>>> 	
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>>> University of Tuebingen
>>> Faculty of Science
>>> Department of Computer Science
>>> Chair of Communication Networks
>>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>>> http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> PCN mailing list
>> PCN@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Wed Apr 13 23:42:57 2011
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To: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 06:42:46 +0000
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
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Cc: "pcn@ietf.org" <pcn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 2: should IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes be removed from flow ID subset list?
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Hi Michael

I think that my arguments were clear:

-------------

>>In my opinion these IP addresses of the PCN-edge-nodes are needed for cases=
 that the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow.
>>
>> Since IEAs (Ingress Egress Aggregates) are used in PCN, this will mean tha=
t the signaling protocol used to carry PCN information from PCN-egress-node t=
o decision point should be able to identify IEAs.
>>
>> In PCN, an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA, should be at least
>> identified by the combination of:
>>
>>    o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>>    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>>    o  DSCP field
>>
>> Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual flows are belongi=
ng
>> and using such an IEA.
>>
>> The currently given flow ID subset list in
>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03 is able to cover both types of fl=
ow IDs (for IEAs and for individual flows).

----------------------

In addition to the above, the signaling requirements draft gives
recommendations to designers of signaling protocols. In this particular
case, the recommendation that the signaling requirements draft gives is
that if a signaling protocol needs to identify flow IDs in pure IP
networks, then the signaling protocol designers could pick information
(a subset) from the flow ID list that is given in the signaling
requirements draft.

As example:
 for individual flow IDs the signaling protocol designers could choose:

>>     o  source IP address;
>>
>>
>>     o  destination IP address;
>>
>>     o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;
>>
>>     o  flow label (typical for IPv6);
>>
>>     o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data;

For aggregated flows the signaling protocol designers could choose:

>>     o  DSCP/TOS field;
>>
>>     o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>>
>>     o  IP address of PCN-egress-node


More discussion is needed on the PCN list regarding this issue, and in
particular by people that have experience on designing signaling
protocols.


Best regards,
Georgios





pure IP networks,
>> the identifier may consist of a subset of the following information:



On 4/13/2011, "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:

>Hi Georgios,
>
>I disagree with your proposal. The egress node signals to the decision
>point the IEA anyway from which traffic should be terminated. The IDs of
>marked flows are needed only in case of multipath routing when the
>information about the IEA is not sufficient to choose flows for
>termination. So the argument against the inclusion is twofold:
>1) The decision point has already the information about the IEA
>2) The information about the IEA is not helpful to denote flows for
>termination when IDs of marked flows are requested.
>
>If you can describe a sensible concrete use case where the inclusion
>still helps, then I may change my mind.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>     Michael
>
>Am 13.04.2011 18:31, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
>>   Hi all
>>
>>  From the WGLC discussions regarding draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements=
-03
>> I identified two open issues:
>>
>> This email contains the second open issue:
>>
>> Issue_2: IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes should be removed from flow ID
>> subset list
>>
>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements specifies that in pure IP networks,
>> the identifier may consist of a subset of the following information:
>>
>>     o  source IP address;
>>
>>
>>     o  destination IP address;
>>
>>     o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;
>>
>>     o  flow label (typical for IPv6);
>>
>>     o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data;
>>
>>     o  DSCP/TOS field;
>>
>>     o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>>
>>     o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>>
>>
>> There was a request to remove the following two bullets from the above lis=
t:
>>
>>
>>
>>     o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>>     o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>>
>> The given reason was: "This does certainly not belong to the flow
>> identifier."
>>
>> In my opinion these IP addresses of the PCN-edge-nodes are needed for case=
s
>> that the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow.
>>
>> Since IEAs (Ingress Egress Aggregates) are used in PCN, this will mean tha=
t
>> the signaling protocol used to carry PCN information from PCN-egress-node =
to
>> decision point should be able to identify IEAs.
>>
>> In PCN, an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA, should be at least
>> identified by the combination of:
>>
>>    o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>>    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>>    o  DSCP field
>>
>> Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual flows are belongi=
ng
>> and using such an IEA.
>>
>> The currently given flow ID subset list in
>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03 is able to cover both types of fl=
ow
>> IDs (for IEAs and for individual flows).
>>
>> Question: Do you agree/disagree on removing the IP addresses of the
>> PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node from the flow ID subset list?
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Georgios
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
>>> Sent: woensdag 6 april 2011 11:56
>>> To: 'Michael Menth'
>>> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
>>> Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Michael
>>>
>>> This issue is about flow ID, and is not about reporting addresses.
>>> Regarding identification of aggregated flows, please read:
>>>
>>> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3175.txt
>>>
>>> Since IEAs are used in PCN, this will mean that the signaling
>>> protocol used to carry PCN information from PCN-egress-node
>>> to decision point should be able to identify IEAs
>>> (ingress-egress-aggregates).
>>>
>>> In PCN an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA (
>>> should be at least identified by the combination of:
>>>
>>>    o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>>>    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>>>    o  DSCP field
>>>
>>> Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual
>>> flows are belonging and using such an IEA.
>>>
>>> In other words this information is not redundant, but it is required.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Georgios
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de]
>>>> Sent: woensdag 6 april 2011 11:03
>>>> To: Georgios Karagiannis
>>>> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
>>>> Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>>>>
>>>> Hi Georgios,
>>>>
>>>> in the meeting (and in fact days before!) we agreed that we
>>> determine
>>>> ingress-egress-aggregates by the IP addresses of the
>>> PCN-ingress-node
>>>> and PCN-egress-node.
>>>>
>>>> The PCN-egress-node gains the information about the
>>> PCN-ingress-node
>>>> somehow and sends a report to the PCN-ingress-node. Therefore, the
>>>> information about the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node
>>> is already
>>>> there.
>>>> Furthermore, the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node do
>>> not further
>>>> characterize any aggregate flows at least to my understanding.
>>>> Therefore, I think that adding to the description of flows their
>>>> PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node is 1) redundant and 2) not
>>>> helpful and, therefore, rather confuses readers.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>>       Michael
>>>>
>>>> Am 06.04.2011 10:31, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
>>>>> Hi Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the comments!
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with all comments, except the following one:
>>>>>
>>>>> Issue  2: Regarding flow identifiers, the following is not needed:
>>>>>      o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>>>>>     o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>>>>>
>>>>> First of all please note that these are needed in the
>>>> situation that
>>>>> the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow. In this case  the "IP
>>>>> address of PCN-ingress-node" and the "IP address of
>>>> PCN-egress-node"
>>>>> are, among other information, required.
>>>>> Moreover please note that before the list with bullets the
>>>> following
>>>>> sentence is used:
>>>>> "In pure IP networks, the identifier may consist of a
>>> subset of the
>>>>> following information:".
>>>>> This means that in some situations you can use a subset of
>>>> this list
>>>>> to identify an individual flow and in other cases you can
>>>> use a subset
>>>>> of the same list to identify an aggregated flow.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Secondly I thought that during the IETF meeting we
>>>> discussed the same
>>>>> issue and there was an agreement to have this information
>>>> in the flow identifier.
>>>>> !?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Georgios
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> =09From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Michael Menth
>>>>> =09Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 23:46
>>>>> =09To: pcn@ietf.org
>>>>> =09Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
>>>>> Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> =09Hi Georgios, hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> =09I quickly went over the draft and fixed some nits. I
>>>> think it is in
>>>>> good shape now. Georgios, please take care of my minor
>>>> corrections for
>>>>> the next version of the doc!
>>>>>
>>>>> =09Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> =09    Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> =09Am 05.04.2011 14:15, schrieb Internet-Drafts@ietf.org:
>>>>>
>>>>> =09=09A New Internet-Draft is available from the
>>>> on-line Internet-Drafts
>>>>> directories.
>>>>> =09=09This draft is a work item of the Congestion and
>>>> Pre-Congestion
>>>>> Notification Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> =09=09=09Title           : Requirements for Signaling of
>>>>> (Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
>>>>> =09=09=09Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
>>>>> =09=09=09Filename        :
>>>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>>>>> =09=09=09Pages           : 7
>>>>> =09=09=09Date            : 2011-04-05
>>>>>
>>>>> =09=09Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
>>>> protecting quality
>>>>> of
>>>>> =09=09service for inelastic traffic admitted to a
>>>> Diffserv domain.
>>>>> The
>>>>> =09=09overall PCN architecture is described in RFC
>>>> 5559. This memo
>>>>> =09=09describes the requirements for the signaling
>>>> applied within the PCN
>>>>> =09=09domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
>>>>> PCN-egress-
>>>>> =09=09node to the decision point;(2) the decision
>>>> point may ask the PCN-
>>>>> =09=09ingress-node to measure, and report back, the
>>>> rate of PCN-traffic
>>>>> =09=09between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The
>>>> decision point may be
>>>>> =09=09either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or
>>>> a centralized node
>>>>> (in
>>>>> =09=09the latter case, (2) is not required). The
>>>> signaling requirements
>>>>> =09=09pertain in particular to two edge behaviours,
>>>> "controlled load (CL)"
>>>>> =09=09and "single marking (SM)"
>>>>> [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
>>>>> =09=09[draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
>>>>>
>>>>> =09=09A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requireme
>>>>> nts-03
>>>>> .txt
>>>>>
>>>>> =09=09Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>> =09=09ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>
>>>>> =09=09Below is the data which will enable a MIME
>>>> compliant mail reader
>>>>> =09=09implementation to automatically retrieve the
>>>> ASCII version of the
>>>>> =09=09Internet-Draft.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> =09=09_______________________________________________
>>>>> =09=09PCN mailing list
>>>>> =09=09PCN@ietf.org
>>>>> =09=09https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> =09--
>>>>> =09Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>>>>> =09University of Tuebingen
>>>>> =09Faculty of Science
>>>>> =09Department of Computer Science
>>>>> =09Chair of Communication Networks
>>>>> =09Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>>>>> =09phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>>>>> =09fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>>>>> =09mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>>>>> =09http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>>>> University of Tuebingen
>>>> Faculty of Science
>>>> Department of Computer Science
>>>> Chair of Communication Networks
>>>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>>>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>>>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>>>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>>>> http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> PCN mailing list
>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> PCN mailing list
>> PCN@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>
>--
>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>University of Tuebingen
>Faculty of Science
>Department of Computer Science
>Chair of Communication Networks
>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de

From philip.eardley@bt.com  Thu Apr 14 03:15:43 2011
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Thread-Topic: [PCN] Open Issue 2: should IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes be removed from flow ID subset list?
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 2: should IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes be	removed from flow ID subset list?
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<< In my opinion these IP addresses of the PCN-edge-nodes are needed for ca=
ses
that the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow.>>

what you say is true.=20
However, the draft says:
<< the report MUST contain:
o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the identifier of the
     PCN-egress-node (typically their IP addresses); together they
     specify the ingress-egress-aggregate to which the report refers,>>
ie the information is already there - which is michael's point.
The issue is that in S2.1 we say what the identifier may consist of, and im=
ply this is what is in the actual message.=20

so can we solve this by replacing:
<<the identifier may consist of a subset of the following information:

   o  source IP address;


   o  destination IP address;

   o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;

   o  flow label (typical for IPv6);

   o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data;=20

   o  DSCP/TOS field;

   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;

   o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>>

By

<< the identifier may consist of a subset of the following information:

   o  source IP address;


   o  destination IP address;

   o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;

   o  flow label (typical for IPv6);

   o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data;=20

   o  DSCP/TOS field;

   Note, where a PCN-flow consists of a collection of microflows, then the =
PCN-flow is identified by the PCN-ingress-node's and PCN-egress-node's iden=
tifiers (typically their IP addresses), which are already part of the repor=
t. >>

I also suggest replacing "flow" by "PCN-flow" in:
<< For both CL and SM edge behaviours, the report MAY also contain:
   o a set of flow identifiers (see Section 2.1).>>
<< 2.1 Specification of Flow Identifiers>>
<<The representation of a flow identifier>>
<< Examples of such flow identifier representations>>

In the first of these instances, you could safely add a reference to rfc555=
9, where PCN-flow is a defined term.=20

Does this work?
Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Georg=
ios Karagiannis
Sent: 13 April 2011 17:32
To: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 2: should IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes be remov=
ed from flow ID subset list?


 Hi all

>From the WGLC discussions regarding draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-0=
3
I identified two open issues:

This email contains the second open issue:
=20
Issue_2: IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes should be removed from flow ID
subset list

draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements specifies that in pure IP networks,
the identifier may consist of a subset of the following information:

   o  source IP address;


   o  destination IP address;

   o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;

   o  flow label (typical for IPv6);

   o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data;=20

   o  DSCP/TOS field;

   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;

   o  IP address of PCN-egress-node=20


There was a request to remove the following two bullets from the above list=
:



   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
   o  IP address of PCN-egress-node=20

The given reason was: "This does certainly not belong to the flow
identifier."

In my opinion these IP addresses of the PCN-edge-nodes are needed for cases
that the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow.=20

Since IEAs (Ingress Egress Aggregates) are used in PCN, this will mean that
the signaling protocol used to carry PCN information from PCN-egress-node t=
o
decision point should be able to identify IEAs.

In PCN, an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA, should be at least
identified by the combination of:

  o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
  o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
  o  DSCP field

Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual flows are belongin=
g
and using such an IEA.=20

The currently given flow ID subset list in
draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03 is able to cover both types of flo=
w
IDs (for IEAs and for individual flows).

Question: Do you agree/disagree on removing the IP addresses of the
PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node from the flow ID subset list?



Best regards,
Georgios

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> Sent: woensdag 6 april 2011 11:56
> To: 'Michael Menth'
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D=20
> Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>=20
> Hi Michael
>=20
> This issue is about flow ID, and is not about reporting addresses.=20
> Regarding identification of aggregated flows, please read:
>=20
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3175.txt
>=20
> Since IEAs are used in PCN, this will mean that the signaling=20
> protocol used to carry PCN information from PCN-egress-node=20
> to decision point should be able to identify IEAs=20
> (ingress-egress-aggregates).
>=20
> In PCN an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA (=20
> should be at least identified by the combination of:
>=20
>   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>   o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>   o  DSCP field
>=20
> Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual=20
> flows are belonging and using such an IEA.=20
>=20
> In other words this information is not redundant, but it is required.
>=20
>=20
> Best regards,
> Georgios
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de]
> > Sent: woensdag 6 april 2011 11:03
> > To: Georgios Karagiannis
> > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
> > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> >=20
> > Hi Georgios,
> >=20
> > in the meeting (and in fact days before!) we agreed that we=20
> determine=20
> > ingress-egress-aggregates by the IP addresses of the=20
> PCN-ingress-node=20
> > and PCN-egress-node.
> >=20
> > The PCN-egress-node gains the information about the=20
> PCN-ingress-node=20
> > somehow and sends a report to the PCN-ingress-node. Therefore, the=20
> > information about the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node=20
> is already=20
> > there.
> > Furthermore, the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node do=20
> not further=20
> > characterize any aggregate flows at least to my understanding.
> > Therefore, I think that adding to the description of flows their=20
> > PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node is 1) redundant and 2) not=20
> > helpful and, therefore, rather confuses readers.
> >=20
> > Best wishes,
> >=20
> >      Michael
> >=20
> > Am 06.04.2011 10:31, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
> > > Hi Michael
> > >
> > > Thanks for the comments!
> > >
> > > I agree with all comments, except the following one:
> > >
> > > Issue  2: Regarding flow identifiers, the following is not needed:
> > >     o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
> > >    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
> > >
> > > First of all please note that these are needed in the
> > situation that
> > > the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow. In this case  the "IP=20
> > > address of PCN-ingress-node" and the "IP address of
> > PCN-egress-node"=20
> > > are, among other information, required.
> > > Moreover please note that before the list with bullets the
> > following
> > > sentence is used:
> > > "In pure IP networks, the identifier may consist of a=20
> subset of the=20
> > > following information:".
> > > This means that in some situations you can use a subset of
> > this list
> > > to identify an individual flow and in other cases you can
> > use a subset
> > > of the same list to identify an aggregated flow.
> > >
> > >
> > > Secondly I thought that during the IETF meeting we
> > discussed the same
> > > issue and there was an agreement to have this information
> > in the flow identifier.
> > > !?
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Georgios
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > 	From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org
> > [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > > Michael Menth
> > > 	Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 23:46
> > > 	To: pcn@ietf.org
> > > 	Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
> > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > =09
> > > =09
> > > 	Hi Georgios, hi all,
> > > =09
> > > 	I quickly went over the draft and fixed some nits. I
> > think it is in
> > > good shape now. Georgios, please take care of my minor
> > corrections for
> > > the next version of the doc!
> > > =09
> > > 	Best wishes,
> > > =09
> > > 	    Michael
> > > =09
> > > 	Am 05.04.2011 14:15, schrieb Internet-Drafts@ietf.org:
> > >
> > > 		A New Internet-Draft is available from the
> > on-line Internet-Drafts
> > > directories.
> > > 		This draft is a work item of the Congestion and
> > Pre-Congestion
> > > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > > 	=09
> > > 	=09
> > > 			Title           : Requirements for Signaling of
> > > (Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > > 			Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > > 			Filename        :
> > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > 			Pages           : 7
> > > 			Date            : 2011-04-05
> > > 	=09
> > > 		Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
> > protecting quality
> > > of
> > > 		service for inelastic traffic admitted to a
> > Diffserv domain.
> > > The
> > > 		overall PCN architecture is described in RFC
> > 5559. This memo
> > >
> > > 		describes the requirements for the signaling
> > applied within the PCN
> > > 		domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> > > PCN-egress-
> > > 		node to the decision point;(2) the decision
> > point may ask the PCN-
> > > 		ingress-node to measure, and report back, the
> > rate of PCN-traffic
> > > 		between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The
> > decision point may be
> > > 		either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or
> > a centralized node
> > > (in
> > > 		the latter case, (2) is not required). The
> > signaling requirements
> > > 		pertain in particular to two edge behaviours,
> > "controlled load (CL)"
> > > 		and "single marking (SM)"
> > > [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> > > 		[draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > > 	=09
> > > 		A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > =09
> > >=20
> >=20
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requireme
> > > nts-03
> > > .txt
> > > 	=09
> > > 		Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > > 		ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > > 	=09
> > > 		Below is the data which will enable a MIME
> > compliant mail reader
> > > 		implementation to automatically retrieve the
> > ASCII version of the
> > > 		Internet-Draft.
> > > 	=09
> > > 	=09
> > > 		_______________________________________________
> > > 		PCN mailing list
> > > 		PCN@ietf.org
> > > 		https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > 	=09
> > >
> > >
> > > 	--
> > > 	Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > 	University of Tuebingen
> > > 	Faculty of Science
> > > 	Department of Computer Science
> > > 	Chair of Communication Networks
> > > 	Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > 	phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > 	fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > 	mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > 	http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > > =09
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >=20
> > --
> > Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > University of Tuebingen
> > Faculty of Science
> > Department of Computer Science
> > Chair of Communication Networks
> > Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> >=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>=20


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From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Thu Apr 14 03:21:49 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: <philip.eardley@bt.com>, <pcn@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 2: should IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes beremoved from flow ID subset list?
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Hi Phil

Your proposals seem fine for me!

Best regards,
Georgios

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com] 
> Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 12:16
> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 2: should IP addresses of 
> PCN-edge-nodes beremoved from flow ID subset list?
> 
> << In my opinion these IP addresses of the PCN-edge-nodes are 
> needed for cases that the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow.>>
> 
> what you say is true. 
> However, the draft says:
> << the report MUST contain:
> o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the identifier of the
>      PCN-egress-node (typically their IP addresses); together they
>      specify the ingress-egress-aggregate to which the report 
> refers,>> ie the information is already there - which is 
> michael's point.
> The issue is that in S2.1 we say what the identifier may 
> consist of, and imply this is what is in the actual message. 
> 
> so can we solve this by replacing:
> <<the identifier may consist of a subset of the following information:
> 
>    o  source IP address;
> 
> 
>    o  destination IP address;
> 
>    o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;
> 
>    o  flow label (typical for IPv6);
> 
>    o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data; 
> 
>    o  DSCP/TOS field;
> 
>    o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
> 
>    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
> >>
> 
> By
> 
> << the identifier may consist of a subset of the following 
> information:
> 
>    o  source IP address;
> 
> 
>    o  destination IP address;
> 
>    o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;
> 
>    o  flow label (typical for IPv6);
> 
>    o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data; 
> 
>    o  DSCP/TOS field;
> 
>    Note, where a PCN-flow consists of a collection of 
> microflows, then the PCN-flow is identified by the 
> PCN-ingress-node's and PCN-egress-node's identifiers 
> (typically their IP addresses), which are already part of the 
> report. >>
> 
> I also suggest replacing "flow" by "PCN-flow" in:
> << For both CL and SM edge behaviours, the report MAY also contain:
>    o a set of flow identifiers (see Section 2.1).>> << 2.1 
> Specification of Flow Identifiers>> <<The representation of a 
> flow identifier>> << Examples of such flow identifier 
> representations>>
> 
> In the first of these instances, you could safely add a 
> reference to rfc5559, where PCN-flow is a defined term. 
> 
> Does this work?
> Phil
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> Sent: 13 April 2011 17:32
> To: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 2: should IP addresses of 
> PCN-edge-nodes be removed from flow ID subset list?
> 
> 
>  Hi all
> 
> >From the WGLC discussions regarding 
> >draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> I identified two open issues:
> 
> This email contains the second open issue:
>  
> Issue_2: IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes should be removed 
> from flow ID subset list
> 
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements specifies that in pure 
> IP networks, the identifier may consist of a subset of the 
> following information:
> 
>    o  source IP address;
> 
> 
>    o  destination IP address;
> 
>    o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;
> 
>    o  flow label (typical for IPv6);
> 
>    o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data; 
> 
>    o  DSCP/TOS field;
> 
>    o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
> 
>    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node 
> 
> 
> There was a request to remove the following two bullets from 
> the above list:
> 
> 
> 
>    o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node 
> 
> The given reason was: "This does certainly not belong to the 
> flow identifier."
> 
> In my opinion these IP addresses of the PCN-edge-nodes are 
> needed for cases that the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow. 
> 
> Since IEAs (Ingress Egress Aggregates) are used in PCN, this 
> will mean that the signaling protocol used to carry PCN 
> information from PCN-egress-node to decision point should be 
> able to identify IEAs.
> 
> In PCN, an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA, 
> should be at least identified by the combination of:
> 
>   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
>   o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
>   o  DSCP field
> 
> Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual 
> flows are belonging and using such an IEA. 
> 
> The currently given flow ID subset list in
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03 is able to cover 
> both types of flow IDs (for IEAs and for individual flows).
> 
> Question: Do you agree/disagree on removing the IP addresses 
> of the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node from the flow ID 
> subset list?
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Georgios
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of 
> > Georgios Karagiannis
> > Sent: woensdag 6 april 2011 11:56
> > To: 'Michael Menth'
> > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
> > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > 
> > Hi Michael
> > 
> > This issue is about flow ID, and is not about reporting addresses. 
> > Regarding identification of aggregated flows, please read:
> > 
> > http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3175.txt
> > 
> > Since IEAs are used in PCN, this will mean that the 
> signaling protocol 
> > used to carry PCN information from PCN-egress-node to 
> decision point 
> > should be able to identify IEAs (ingress-egress-aggregates).
> > 
> > In PCN an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA ( 
> should be at 
> > least identified by the combination of:
> > 
> >   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
> >   o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
> >   o  DSCP field
> > 
> > Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual flows are 
> > belonging and using such an IEA.
> > 
> > In other words this information is not redundant, but it is 
> required.
> > 
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de]
> > > Sent: woensdag 6 april 2011 11:03
> > > To: Georgios Karagiannis
> > > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
> > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > 
> > > Hi Georgios,
> > > 
> > > in the meeting (and in fact days before!) we agreed that we
> > determine
> > > ingress-egress-aggregates by the IP addresses of the
> > PCN-ingress-node
> > > and PCN-egress-node.
> > > 
> > > The PCN-egress-node gains the information about the
> > PCN-ingress-node
> > > somehow and sends a report to the PCN-ingress-node. 
> Therefore, the 
> > > information about the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node
> > is already
> > > there.
> > > Furthermore, the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node do
> > not further
> > > characterize any aggregate flows at least to my understanding.
> > > Therefore, I think that adding to the description of flows their 
> > > PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node is 1) redundant and 2) not 
> > > helpful and, therefore, rather confuses readers.
> > > 
> > > Best wishes,
> > > 
> > >      Michael
> > > 
> > > Am 06.04.2011 10:31, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
> > > > Hi Michael
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the comments!
> > > >
> > > > I agree with all comments, except the following one:
> > > >
> > > > Issue  2: Regarding flow identifiers, the following is 
> not needed:
> > > >     o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
> > > >    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
> > > >
> > > > First of all please note that these are needed in the
> > > situation that
> > > > the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow. In this case 
>  the "IP 
> > > > address of PCN-ingress-node" and the "IP address of
> > > PCN-egress-node" 
> > > > are, among other information, required.
> > > > Moreover please note that before the list with bullets the
> > > following
> > > > sentence is used:
> > > > "In pure IP networks, the identifier may consist of a
> > subset of the
> > > > following information:".
> > > > This means that in some situations you can use a subset of
> > > this list
> > > > to identify an individual flow and in other cases you can
> > > use a subset
> > > > of the same list to identify an aggregated flow.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Secondly I thought that during the IETF meeting we
> > > discussed the same
> > > > issue and there was an agreement to have this information
> > > in the flow identifier.
> > > > !?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Georgios
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > > 	From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org
> > > [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > > > Michael Menth
> > > > 	Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 23:46
> > > > 	To: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > 	Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
> > > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > 	
> > > > 	
> > > > 	Hi Georgios, hi all,
> > > > 	
> > > > 	I quickly went over the draft and fixed some nits. I
> > > think it is in
> > > > good shape now. Georgios, please take care of my minor
> > > corrections for
> > > > the next version of the doc!
> > > > 	
> > > > 	Best wishes,
> > > > 	
> > > > 	    Michael
> > > > 	
> > > > 	Am 05.04.2011 14:15, schrieb Internet-Drafts@ietf.org:
> > > >
> > > > 		A New Internet-Draft is available from the
> > > on-line Internet-Drafts
> > > > directories.
> > > > 		This draft is a work item of the Congestion and
> > > Pre-Congestion
> > > > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > > > 		
> > > > 		
> > > > 			Title           : Requirements 
> for Signaling of
> > > > (Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > > > 			Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > > > 			Filename        :
> > > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > 			Pages           : 7
> > > > 			Date            : 2011-04-05
> > > > 		
> > > > 		Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
> > > protecting quality
> > > > of
> > > > 		service for inelastic traffic admitted to a
> > > Diffserv domain.
> > > > The
> > > > 		overall PCN architecture is described in RFC
> > > 5559. This memo
> > > >
> > > > 		describes the requirements for the signaling
> > > applied within the PCN
> > > > 		domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is 
> carried from the
> > > > PCN-egress-
> > > > 		node to the decision point;(2) the decision
> > > point may ask the PCN-
> > > > 		ingress-node to measure, and report back, the
> > > rate of PCN-traffic
> > > > 		between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The
> > > decision point may be
> > > > 		either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or
> > > a centralized node
> > > > (in
> > > > 		the latter case, (2) is not required). The
> > > signaling requirements
> > > > 		pertain in particular to two edge behaviours,
> > > "controlled load (CL)"
> > > > 		and "single marking (SM)"
> > > > [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> > > > 		[draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > > > 		
> > > > 		A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > 	
> > > > 
> > > 
> > 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requireme
> > > > nts-03
> > > > .txt
> > > > 		
> > > > 		Internet-Drafts are also available by 
> anonymous FTP at:
> > > > 		ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > > > 		
> > > > 		Below is the data which will enable a MIME
> > > compliant mail reader
> > > > 		implementation to automatically retrieve the
> > > ASCII version of the
> > > > 		Internet-Draft.
> > > > 		
> > > > 		
> > > > 		_______________________________________________
> > > > 		PCN mailing list
> > > > 		PCN@ietf.org
> > > > 		https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > > 		
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 	--
> > > > 	Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > > 	University of Tuebingen
> > > > 	Faculty of Science
> > > > 	Department of Computer Science
> > > > 	Chair of Communication Networks
> > > > 	Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > > 	phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > > 	fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > > 	mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > > 	http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > > > 	
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > > --
> > > Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > University of Tuebingen
> > > Faculty of Science
> > > Department of Computer Science
> > > Chair of Communication Networks
> > > Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 



From philip.eardley@bt.com  Thu Apr 14 03:28:59 2011
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>, <pcn@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 11:28:56 +0100
Thread-Topic: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements	recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements	recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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I dont think this belongs in this document. Seems it can be left to the act=
ual signalling protocol and configuration in the actual network it's operat=
ing in. Anyway, if we specify a particular maximum we also need to specify =
format and that requires some work on what ways are currently considered be=
st.=20

-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Georg=
ios Karagiannis
Sent: 13 April 2011 17:28
To: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements r=
ecommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?


=20
Hi all

>From the WGLC discussions regarding draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-0=
3
I identified two open issues:

This email contains the first open issue:
=20
Issue_1: It is proposed that draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should
recommend which maximum rate value should be carried by a signaling
protocol.

This will mean that the PCN WG will recommend to the signaling protocol
designers to use a container/field that is able to carry this maximum rate
value (in octets/s).

Question: Do you agree/disagree with the fact that
draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend which maximum rate
value should be carried by a signaling protocol?

Best regards,
Georgios



> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:56
> To: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] Perhaps some additions=20
> requiredfordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>=20
> Hi Phil
>=20
> You are right about the encoding. Therefore, we might also=20
> need to define the way of how this value is encoded.=20
>=20
> In RFC 2210 all the rate values are encoded using: 32-bit=20
> IEEE floating point number.
>=20
> I am not sure if it is good lo leave this decision to other=20
> desigbn teams than the PCN WG.
>=20
> The values of these rates are affecting the accuracy of the=20
> provided PCN solutions, in particular when they get another=20
> value than they should.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Georgios
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:34
> > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required=20
> > fordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> >=20
> > I dont think this is needed in either signalling reqts or edge=20
> > behaviour docs. I think this would be up to the actual signalling=20
> > protocol to define, or perhaps the configuration in a particular=20
> > PCN-domain.
> > Note also that defining a field length doesn't define the=20
> max value,=20
> > as this depends on the encoding [for instance, 1 byte might be an=20
> > exponent]
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> Behalf Of=20
> > Georgios Karagiannis
> > Sent: 07 April 2011 10:20
> > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for=20
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> >=20
> > Hi all
> >=20
> > Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts=20
> and what we=20
> > currently have in the 03 version of the signaling=20
> requirements draft,=20
> > I see that some information associated with the information that a=20
> > signaling protocol should carry is missing. In particular,=20
> we are not=20
> > specifying what is the maximum value of the rates that a signaling=20
> > protocol should be able to carry. This is important in order to=20
> > specify what will be maximum length of the field that=20
> carries such a=20
> > maximum rate.
> >=20
> > In particular we need to have these maximum values for the=20
> following=20
> > rates:
> >=20
> >    o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in octets/second,
> >    o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
> >    o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in=20
> >      octets/second,
> >    o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in=20
> > octets/second,
> >=20
> >=20
> > We could use a field of 32 bits long =3D> Maximum rate value =3D 2^32 =
=3D
> > 4294967296 octets/s)
> >=20
> > Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable?=20
> >=20
> > Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate value in the=20
> > signaling requirements draft, or should we do this in the edge=20
> > behaviour drafts?
> >=20
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org]=20
> On Behalf=20
> > > Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
> > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: [PCN] I-D
> > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > >=20
> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line=20
> Internet-Drafts=20
> > > directories.
> > > This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion=20
> > > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-)=20
> > > Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > > 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > > 	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > 	Pages           : 7
> > > 	Date            : 2011-04-05
> > >=20
> > > Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for=20
> protecting quality=20
> > > of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv=20
> domain. The=20
> > > overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo=20
> > > describes the requirements for the signaling applied=20
> within the PCN
> > > domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> > > PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision point may=20
> > > ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back,=20
> the rate of=20
> > > PCN-traffic between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The decision=20
> > > point may be either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a=20
> > > centralized node (in the latter case, (2) is not required). The=20
> > > signaling requirements pertain in particular to two edge=20
> behaviours,=20
> > > "controlled load (CL)"
> > > and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> > > [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > >=20
> > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
> > equirements-03.txt
> > >=20
> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > >=20
> > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader=20
> > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the=20
> > > Internet-Draft.
> > >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>=20


_______________________________________________
PCN mailing list
PCN@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From toby@moncaster.com  Thu Apr 14 03:53:47 2011
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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
To: "'Toby Moncaster'" <toby@moncaster.com>, "'Bob Briscoe'" <bob.briscoe@bt.com>, "'Michael Menth'" <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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I am trying to bash the ECN compatibility text into a usable appendix for
the document. This is what I have so far:

"Appendix A.  Co-existence of ECN and PCN (informative)

   The PCN encoding described in this document re-uses the bits of the
   ECN field in the IP header.  Consequently, this disables ECN within
   the PCN domain.  Appendix B of [RFC5696] included advice on handling
   ECN traffic within a PCN-domain.  This appendix clarifies that
   advice.

   ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control and not sharing a PCN-
   compatible DSCP: This requires no action.

   ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-compatible
   DSCP: There are two options.

      *  The ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and the egress re-
         maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP.

      *  The ingress tunnels the traffic, setting not-PCN in the outer
         header; note that this turns off ECN for this traffic within
         the PCN domain.

      The first option is recommended unless you are short of local
      DSCPs.

   ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control:  There are two options.

      *  The ingress places this traffic in a tunnel with a PCN-
         compatible DSCP in the outer header.  The egress zeroes the
         ECN-field before decapsulation.

      *  ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field of
         PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN.

      The second option is not recommended.

   ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver indicates desire
   to see PCN marks: 

      Schemes have been suggested where PCN marks may be leaked out of
      the PCN-domain and used by the end hosts to modify realtime data
      rates.  Currently all such schemes are experimental and the
      following is for guidance only.

      The ingress needs to tunnel the traffic using [RFC6040].  The PCN-
      egress should not zero the ECN field, and the tunnel egress should
      use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-marking).  Note that
      this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not compatible with the
      experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].

   In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be used unless
   specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of tunneling
   and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress nodes.  That is,
   any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-domain as
   illustrated in the following figure:


                ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
               .   ,--------.                   ,--------.    .
              .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-  |_   .
              .  / | ingress |                   | egress | \  .
               .|  '---------'                   '--------'  |.
                | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .|
           ,--------.                                     ,--------.
     _____| Tunnel  |                                     | Tunnel |____
          | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - | Egress |
          '---------'                                     '--------'


             Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN actions
"


I hope this captures all the key elements from the discussion.

I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards to updating
RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be dependent on it as
well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a standalone
section:

"Section N. Effect on baseline encoding

The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01 codepoint was for use
in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such experiments. This
document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning. Consequently this
document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01 codepoint for
experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept the risk that
PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be compatible with
their experiment."



Two inline responses to Michael at the end


Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Toby Moncaster
> Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
> To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> 
> I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on this
> draft:
> 
> 1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
> 
> 2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively updates
> RFC5696
> and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on their
> own
> (which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an experiment!).
> 
> 3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
> 
> I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline which is
> that
> this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
> 
> Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see it we are
> always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance I am not
> sure
> if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding being
> dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
> 
> Of course we could always revive the option we discussed, where we
> obsolete
> RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft (which
> could
> then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
> 
> Thoughts anyone?
> 
> Toby
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> > Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
> > To: Michael Menth
> > Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> >
> > Michael,
> >
> > At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
> > >Hi all,
> > >
> > >to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a
> > >slight rewording:
> > >
> > >Handling of ECN traffic
> > >* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
> > >PCN-compatible DSCP
> > >     - no action needed
> > >* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
> > >PCN-compatible DSCP
> > >     - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
> > >     - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and egress
> > > re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
> > >     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in the
> > > outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of ECN
> > > for this traffic within the PCN domain.
> >
> > We ought to recommend one:
> > #2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain extent.
> > THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs (e.g.
> > MPLS or Ethernet).
> > #1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same. So
> > #1 can be chucked.
> >
> > >* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
> > >     - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field of
> > > PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
> >
> > Not recommended
> >
> > >     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
> > > PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
> > > ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
> >
> > recommended
> >
> > >* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
> > >indicated to receive PCN marks
> > >     - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP but
> > > the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation
> > > according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn ECT(0)
> > > into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
> >
> > Good point.
> > This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.
> >
> >
> > >Another two questions
> > >* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is subject
> > >to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems to be
> > >a similar issue.
> >
> > Similar to what?

What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the DSCP of an
arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet, should that change
be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to get rather
obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of suitable DSCPs for
PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an existing DSCP
providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an operator chooses
to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so. If I recall
right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains anyway...


> >
> > >* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
> > >interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics? Have
> > >we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
> >
> > Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.

Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need to state this
anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-domain. IN
appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a marking behaviour for
use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues


> >
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> > >Best wishes,
> > >
> > >     Michael
> > >
> > >--
> > >Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > >University of Tuebingen
> > >Faculty of Science
> > >Department of Computer Science
> > >Chair of Communication Networks
> > >Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > >phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > >fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > >mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > >http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Thu Apr 14 03:59:33 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: <philip.eardley@bt.com>, <pcn@ietf.org>
References: <20110405121501.17256.4322.idtracker@localhost><2456373BE0C048BC81789AC0BD960800@dynamic.ewi.utwente.nl><9510D26531EF184D9017DF24659BB87F3290213FC5@EMV65-UKRD.domain1.systemhost.net><BB9144067FE94348BDA0CA92D84F06B2@dynamic.ewi.utwente.nl> <2D5FD60CDAAD42C997B4D22F9F0AD940@dynamic.ewi.utwente.nl> <9510D26531EF184D9017DF24659BB87F329194847C@EMV65-UKRD.domain1.systemhost.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:59:12 +0200
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements	recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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Hi Phil

Agree, but maybe the following sentence could solve the problem!

"The signaling protocol SHOULD be able to carry a rate value that can at
least be fitted in a 32 bit container/field, when using the IEEE floating
point number encoding."

The above is based on the fact that a token bucket rate carried in a RSVP
SENDER_TSPEC Object (see RFC2210), uses also such a container/field.

Best regards,
Georgios






> -----Original Message-----
> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com] 
> Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 12:29
> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum 
> rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> 
> I dont think this belongs in this document. Seems it can be 
> left to the actual signalling protocol and configuration in 
> the actual network it's operating in. Anyway, if we specify a 
> particular maximum we also need to specify format and that 
> requires some work on what ways are currently considered best. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> Sent: 13 April 2011 17:28
> To: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum 
> rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> 
> 
>  
> Hi all
> 
> >From the WGLC discussions regarding 
> >draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> I identified two open issues:
> 
> This email contains the first open issue:
>  
> Issue_1: It is proposed that 
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend which 
> maximum rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol.
> 
> This will mean that the PCN WG will recommend to the 
> signaling protocol designers to use a container/field that is 
> able to carry this maximum rate value (in octets/s).
> 
> Question: Do you agree/disagree with the fact that 
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend which 
> maximum rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol?
> 
> Best regards,
> Georgios
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of 
> > Georgios Karagiannis
> > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:56
> > To: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [PCN] Perhaps some additions 
> > requiredfordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > 
> > Hi Phil
> > 
> > You are right about the encoding. Therefore, we might also need to 
> > define the way of how this value is encoded.
> > 
> > In RFC 2210 all the rate values are encoded using: 32-bit IEEE 
> > floating point number.
> > 
> > I am not sure if it is good lo leave this decision to other desigbn 
> > teams than the PCN WG.
> > 
> > The values of these rates are affecting the accuracy of the 
> provided 
> > PCN solutions, in particular when they get another value than they 
> > should.
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:34
> > > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required 
> > > fordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > 
> > > I dont think this is needed in either signalling reqts or edge 
> > > behaviour docs. I think this would be up to the actual signalling 
> > > protocol to define, or perhaps the configuration in a particular 
> > > PCN-domain.
> > > Note also that defining a field length doesn't define the
> > max value,
> > > as this depends on the encoding [for instance, 1 byte might be an 
> > > exponent]
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of
> > > Georgios Karagiannis
> > > Sent: 07 April 2011 10:20
> > > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for 
> > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > 
> > > Hi all
> > > 
> > > Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts
> > and what we
> > > currently have in the 03 version of the signaling
> > requirements draft,
> > > I see that some information associated with the 
> information that a 
> > > signaling protocol should carry is missing. In particular,
> > we are not
> > > specifying what is the maximum value of the rates that a 
> signaling 
> > > protocol should be able to carry. This is important in order to 
> > > specify what will be maximum length of the field that
> > carries such a
> > > maximum rate.
> > > 
> > > In particular we need to have these maximum values for the
> > following
> > > rates:
> > > 
> > >    o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in 
> octets/second,
> > >    o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
> > >    o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in 
> > >      octets/second,
> > >    o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in 
> > > octets/second,
> > > 
> > > 
> > > We could use a field of 32 bits long => Maximum rate 
> value = 2^32 =
> > > 4294967296 octets/s)
> > > 
> > > Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable? 
> > > 
> > > Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate value in the 
> > > signaling requirements draft, or should we do this in the edge 
> > > behaviour drafts?
> > > 
> > > Best regards,
> > > Georgios
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org]
> > On Behalf
> > > > Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > > Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
> > > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > > > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: [PCN] I-D
> > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > 
> > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > Internet-Drafts
> > > > directories.
> > > > This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion 
> > > > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) 
> > > > Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > > > 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > > > 	Filename        : 
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > 	Pages           : 7
> > > > 	Date            : 2011-04-05
> > > > 
> > > > Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
> > protecting quality
> > > > of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv
> > domain. The
> > > > overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo 
> > > > describes the requirements for the signaling applied
> > within the PCN
> > > > domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> > > > PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision 
> point may 
> > > > ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back,
> > the rate of
> > > > PCN-traffic between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. 
> The decision 
> > > > point may be either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a 
> > > > centralized node (in the latter case, (2) is not required). The 
> > > > signaling requirements pertain in particular to two edge
> > behaviours,
> > > > "controlled load (CL)"
> > > > and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> > > > [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > > > 
> > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
> > > equirements-03.txt
> > > > 
> > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > > > 
> > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant 
> mail reader 
> > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII 
> version of the 
> > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > PCN mailing list
> > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 



From philip.eardley@bt.com  Thu Apr 14 04:01:22 2011
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>, <pcn@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:01:18 +0100
Thread-Topic: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements	recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements	recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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Well, if you include your sentence that means you don't agree!

As i said, i don't think this is a good idea.=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Georgios Karagiannis [mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl]=20
Sent: 14 April 2011 11:59
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; pcn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requiremen=
ts recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?

Hi Phil

Agree, but maybe the following sentence could solve the problem!

"The signaling protocol SHOULD be able to carry a rate value that can at
least be fitted in a 32 bit container/field, when using the IEEE floating
point number encoding."

The above is based on the fact that a token bucket rate carried in a RSVP
SENDER_TSPEC Object (see RFC2210), uses also such a container/field.

Best regards,
Georgios






> -----Original Message-----
> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]=20
> Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 12:29
> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should=20
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum=20
> rate value carried by signaling protocol?
>=20
> I dont think this belongs in this document. Seems it can be=20
> left to the actual signalling protocol and configuration in=20
> the actual network it's operating in. Anyway, if we specify a=20
> particular maximum we also need to specify format and that=20
> requires some work on what ways are currently considered best.=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> Sent: 13 April 2011 17:28
> To: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should=20
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum=20
> rate value carried by signaling protocol?
>=20
>=20
> =20
> Hi all
>=20
> >From the WGLC discussions regarding=20
> >draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> I identified two open issues:
>=20
> This email contains the first open issue:
> =20
> Issue_1: It is proposed that=20
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend which=20
> maximum rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol.
>=20
> This will mean that the PCN WG will recommend to the=20
> signaling protocol designers to use a container/field that is=20
> able to carry this maximum rate value (in octets/s).
>=20
> Question: Do you agree/disagree with the fact that=20
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend which=20
> maximum rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol?
>=20
> Best regards,
> Georgios
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> Behalf Of=20
> > Georgios Karagiannis
> > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:56
> > To: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [PCN] Perhaps some additions=20
> > requiredfordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> >=20
> > Hi Phil
> >=20
> > You are right about the encoding. Therefore, we might also need to=20
> > define the way of how this value is encoded.
> >=20
> > In RFC 2210 all the rate values are encoded using: 32-bit IEEE=20
> > floating point number.
> >=20
> > I am not sure if it is good lo leave this decision to other desigbn=20
> > teams than the PCN WG.
> >=20
> > The values of these rates are affecting the accuracy of the=20
> provided=20
> > PCN solutions, in particular when they get another value than they=20
> > should.
> >=20
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:34
> > > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required=20
> > > fordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > >=20
> > > I dont think this is needed in either signalling reqts or edge=20
> > > behaviour docs. I think this would be up to the actual signalling=20
> > > protocol to define, or perhaps the configuration in a particular=20
> > > PCN-domain.
> > > Note also that defining a field length doesn't define the
> > max value,
> > > as this depends on the encoding [for instance, 1 byte might be an=20
> > > exponent]
> > >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of
> > > Georgios Karagiannis
> > > Sent: 07 April 2011 10:20
> > > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for=20
> > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > >=20
> > > Hi all
> > >=20
> > > Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts
> > and what we
> > > currently have in the 03 version of the signaling
> > requirements draft,
> > > I see that some information associated with the=20
> information that a=20
> > > signaling protocol should carry is missing. In particular,
> > we are not
> > > specifying what is the maximum value of the rates that a=20
> signaling=20
> > > protocol should be able to carry. This is important in order to=20
> > > specify what will be maximum length of the field that
> > carries such a
> > > maximum rate.
> > >=20
> > > In particular we need to have these maximum values for the
> > following
> > > rates:
> > >=20
> > >    o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in=20
> octets/second,
> > >    o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
> > >    o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in=20
> > >      octets/second,
> > >    o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in=20
> > > octets/second,
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > We could use a field of 32 bits long =3D> Maximum rate=20
> value =3D 2^32 =3D
> > > 4294967296 octets/s)
> > >=20
> > > Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable?=20
> > >=20
> > > Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate value in the=20
> > > signaling requirements draft, or should we do this in the edge=20
> > > behaviour drafts?
> > >=20
> > > Best regards,
> > > Georgios
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org]
> > On Behalf
> > > > Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > > Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
> > > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > > > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: [PCN] I-D
> > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > >=20
> > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > Internet-Drafts
> > > > directories.
> > > > This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion=20
> > > > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-)=20
> > > > Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > > > 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > > > 	Filename        :=20
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > 	Pages           : 7
> > > > 	Date            : 2011-04-05
> > > >=20
> > > > Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
> > protecting quality
> > > > of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv
> > domain. The
> > > > overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo=20
> > > > describes the requirements for the signaling applied
> > within the PCN
> > > > domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> > > > PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision=20
> point may=20
> > > > ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back,
> > the rate of
> > > > PCN-traffic between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes.=20
> The decision=20
> > > > point may be either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a=20
> > > > centralized node (in the latter case, (2) is not required). The=20
> > > > signaling requirements pertain in particular to two edge
> > behaviours,
> > > > "controlled load (CL)"
> > > > and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> > > > [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > > >=20
> > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
> > > equirements-03.txt
> > > >=20
> > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > > >=20
> > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant=20
> mail reader=20
> > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII=20
> version of the=20
> > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > PCN mailing list
> > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>=20



From toby@moncaster.com  Thu Apr 14 04:27:23 2011
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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
To: "'Georgios Karagiannis'" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>, <philip.eardley@bt.com>, <pcn@ietf.org>
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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:27:10 +0100
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 2: should IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes	beremoved from flow ID subset list?
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Phil's proposal sounds good to me too...

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Georgios Karagiannis
> Sent: 14 April 2011 11:21
> To: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 2: should IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes
> beremoved from flow ID subset list?
> 
> Hi Phil
> 
> Your proposals seem fine for me!
> 
> Best regards,
> Georgios
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 12:16
> > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 2: should IP addresses of
> > PCN-edge-nodes beremoved from flow ID subset list?
> >
> > << In my opinion these IP addresses of the PCN-edge-nodes are
> > needed for cases that the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow.>>
> >
> > what you say is true.
> > However, the draft says:
> > << the report MUST contain:
> > o the identifier of the PCN-ingress-node and the identifier of the
> >      PCN-egress-node (typically their IP addresses); together they
> >      specify the ingress-egress-aggregate to which the report
> > refers,>> ie the information is already there - which is
> > michael's point.
> > The issue is that in S2.1 we say what the identifier may
> > consist of, and imply this is what is in the actual message.
> >
> > so can we solve this by replacing:
> > <<the identifier may consist of a subset of the following
> information:
> >
> >    o  source IP address;
> >
> >
> >    o  destination IP address;
> >
> >    o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;
> >
> >    o  flow label (typical for IPv6);
> >
> >    o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data;
> >
> >    o  DSCP/TOS field;
> >
> >    o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
> >
> >    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
> > >>
> >
> > By
> >
> > << the identifier may consist of a subset of the following
> > information:
> >
> >    o  source IP address;
> >
> >
> >    o  destination IP address;
> >
> >    o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;
> >
> >    o  flow label (typical for IPv6);
> >
> >    o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data;
> >
> >    o  DSCP/TOS field;
> >
> >    Note, where a PCN-flow consists of a collection of
> > microflows, then the PCN-flow is identified by the
> > PCN-ingress-node's and PCN-egress-node's identifiers
> > (typically their IP addresses), which are already part of the
> > report. >>
> >
> > I also suggest replacing "flow" by "PCN-flow" in:
> > << For both CL and SM edge behaviours, the report MAY also contain:
> >    o a set of flow identifiers (see Section 2.1).>> << 2.1
> > Specification of Flow Identifiers>> <<The representation of a
> > flow identifier>> << Examples of such flow identifier
> > representations>>
> >
> > In the first of these instances, you could safely add a
> > reference to rfc5559, where PCN-flow is a defined term.
> >
> > Does this work?
> > Phil
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> > Sent: 13 April 2011 17:32
> > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 2: should IP addresses of
> > PCN-edge-nodes be removed from flow ID subset list?
> >
> >
> >  Hi all
> >
> > >From the WGLC discussions regarding
> > >draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> > I identified two open issues:
> >
> > This email contains the second open issue:
> >
> > Issue_2: IP addresses of PCN-edge-nodes should be removed
> > from flow ID subset list
> >
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements specifies that in pure
> > IP networks, the identifier may consist of a subset of the
> > following information:
> >
> >    o  source IP address;
> >
> >
> >    o  destination IP address;
> >
> >    o  protocol identifier and higher layer (port) addressing;
> >
> >    o  flow label (typical for IPv6);
> >
> >    o  SPI field for IPsec encapsulated data;
> >
> >    o  DSCP/TOS field;
> >
> >    o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
> >
> >    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
> >
> >
> > There was a request to remove the following two bullets from
> > the above list:
> >
> >
> >
> >    o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
> >    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
> >
> > The given reason was: "This does certainly not belong to the
> > flow identifier."
> >
> > In my opinion these IP addresses of the PCN-edge-nodes are
> > needed for cases that the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow.
> >
> > Since IEAs (Ingress Egress Aggregates) are used in PCN, this
> > will mean that the signaling protocol used to carry PCN
> > information from PCN-egress-node to decision point should be
> > able to identify IEAs.
> >
> > In PCN, an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA,
> > should be at least identified by the combination of:
> >
> >   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
> >   o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
> >   o  DSCP field
> >
> > Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual
> > flows are belonging and using such an IEA.
> >
> > The currently given flow ID subset list in
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03 is able to cover
> > both types of flow IDs (for IEAs and for individual flows).
> >
> > Question: Do you agree/disagree on removing the IP addresses
> > of the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node from the flow ID
> > subset list?
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of
> > > Georgios Karagiannis
> > > Sent: woensdag 6 april 2011 11:56
> > > To: 'Michael Menth'
> > > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
> > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > >
> > > Hi Michael
> > >
> > > This issue is about flow ID, and is not about reporting addresses.
> > > Regarding identification of aggregated flows, please read:
> > >
> > > http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3175.txt
> > >
> > > Since IEAs are used in PCN, this will mean that the
> > signaling protocol
> > > used to carry PCN information from PCN-egress-node to
> > decision point
> > > should be able to identify IEAs (ingress-egress-aggregates).
> > >
> > > In PCN an aggregated flow that is representing an IEA (
> > should be at
> > > least identified by the combination of:
> > >
> > >   o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
> > >   o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
> > >   o  DSCP field
> > >
> > > Moreover, it should be able to identify which individual flows are
> > > belonging and using such an IEA.
> > >
> > > In other words this information is not redundant, but it is
> > required.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Georgios
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de]
> > > > Sent: woensdag 6 april 2011 11:03
> > > > To: Georgios Karagiannis
> > > > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
> > > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > >
> > > > Hi Georgios,
> > > >
> > > > in the meeting (and in fact days before!) we agreed that we
> > > determine
> > > > ingress-egress-aggregates by the IP addresses of the
> > > PCN-ingress-node
> > > > and PCN-egress-node.
> > > >
> > > > The PCN-egress-node gains the information about the
> > > PCN-ingress-node
> > > > somehow and sends a report to the PCN-ingress-node.
> > Therefore, the
> > > > information about the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node
> > > is already
> > > > there.
> > > > Furthermore, the PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node do
> > > not further
> > > > characterize any aggregate flows at least to my understanding.
> > > > Therefore, I think that adding to the description of flows their
> > > > PCN-ingress-node and PCN-egress-node is 1) redundant and 2) not
> > > > helpful and, therefore, rather confuses readers.
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes,
> > > >
> > > >      Michael
> > > >
> > > > Am 06.04.2011 10:31, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
> > > > > Hi Michael
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the comments!
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with all comments, except the following one:
> > > > >
> > > > > Issue  2: Regarding flow identifiers, the following is
> > not needed:
> > > > >     o  IP address of PCN-ingress-node;
> > > > >    o  IP address of PCN-egress-node
> > > > >
> > > > > First of all please note that these are needed in the
> > > > situation that
> > > > > the flow ID identifies an aggregated flow. In this case
> >  the "IP
> > > > > address of PCN-ingress-node" and the "IP address of
> > > > PCN-egress-node"
> > > > > are, among other information, required.
> > > > > Moreover please note that before the list with bullets the
> > > > following
> > > > > sentence is used:
> > > > > "In pure IP networks, the identifier may consist of a
> > > subset of the
> > > > > following information:".
> > > > > This means that in some situations you can use a subset of
> > > > this list
> > > > > to identify an individual flow and in other cases you can
> > > > use a subset
> > > > > of the same list to identify an aggregated flow.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Secondly I thought that during the IETF meeting we
> > > > discussed the same
> > > > > issue and there was an agreement to have this information
> > > > in the flow identifier.
> > > > > !?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > Georgios
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > 	From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org
> > > > [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > > > > Michael Menth
> > > > > 	Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 23:46
> > > > > 	To: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > > 	Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D
> > > > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 	Hi Georgios, hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > 	I quickly went over the draft and fixed some nits. I
> > > > think it is in
> > > > > good shape now. Georgios, please take care of my minor
> > > > corrections for
> > > > > the next version of the doc!
> > > > >
> > > > > 	Best wishes,
> > > > >
> > > > > 	    Michael
> > > > >
> > > > > 	Am 05.04.2011 14:15, schrieb Internet-Drafts@ietf.org:
> > > > >
> > > > > 		A New Internet-Draft is available from the
> > > > on-line Internet-Drafts
> > > > > directories.
> > > > > 		This draft is a work item of the Congestion and
> > > > Pre-Congestion
> > > > > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 			Title           : Requirements
> > for Signaling of
> > > > > (Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > > > > 			Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > > > > 			Filename        :
> > > > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > > 			Pages           : 7
> > > > > 			Date            : 2011-04-05
> > > > >
> > > > > 		Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
> > > > protecting quality
> > > > > of
> > > > > 		service for inelastic traffic admitted to a
> > > > Diffserv domain.
> > > > > The
> > > > > 		overall PCN architecture is described in RFC
> > > > 5559. This memo
> > > > >
> > > > > 		describes the requirements for the signaling
> > > > applied within the PCN
> > > > > 		domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is
> > carried from the
> > > > > PCN-egress-
> > > > > 		node to the decision point;(2) the decision
> > > > point may ask the PCN-
> > > > > 		ingress-node to measure, and report back, the
> > > > rate of PCN-traffic
> > > > > 		between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. The
> > > > decision point may be
> > > > > 		either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or
> > > > a centralized node
> > > > > (in
> > > > > 		the latter case, (2) is not required). The
> > > > signaling requirements
> > > > > 		pertain in particular to two edge behaviours,
> > > > "controlled load (CL)"
> > > > > 		and "single marking (SM)"
> > > > > [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> > > > > 		[draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > > > >
> > > > > 		A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-
> requireme
> > > > > nts-03
> > > > > .txt
> > > > >
> > > > > 		Internet-Drafts are also available by
> > anonymous FTP at:
> > > > > 		ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > > > >
> > > > > 		Below is the data which will enable a MIME
> > > > compliant mail reader
> > > > > 		implementation to automatically retrieve the
> > > > ASCII version of the
> > > > > 		Internet-Draft.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 		_______________________________________________
> > > > > 		PCN mailing list
> > > > > 		PCN@ietf.org
> > > > > 		https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 	--
> > > > > 	Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > > > 	University of Tuebingen
> > > > > 	Faculty of Science
> > > > > 	Department of Computer Science
> > > > > 	Chair of Communication Networks
> > > > > 	Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > > > 	phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > > > 	fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > > > 	mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > > > 	http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > > University of Tuebingen
> > > > Faculty of Science
> > > > Department of Computer Science
> > > > Chair of Communication Networks
> > > > Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > > phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > > fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > > mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > > http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > PCN mailing list
> > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Thu Apr 14 04:30:07 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: <philip.eardley@bt.com>, <pcn@ietf.org>
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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 13:29:44 +0200
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements	recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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Hi Phil

Okay, my agreement is related to your statement: 

> "Anyway, if we specify a particular 
> maximum we also 
> > need to specify format and that requires some work on what ways are 
> > currently considered best."

The PCN WG specified the PCN solutions, so in my opinion the specification
of this maximum 
should also be considered to be a PCN WG activity.

In my opinion a sentence like the one given below will solve this issue:

"The signaling protocol SHOULD be able to carry a rate value that can at
least be fitted in a 32 bit container/field, when 
using the IEEE floating point number encoding."


Note that the above is based on the fact that a token bucket rate carried in
a RSVP SENDER_TSPEC Object (see RFC2210), uses 
also such a container/field. 

Furthermore, note that by using a SHOULD in the sentence it will mean that
the signaling protocol designers 
could choose something different, considering that this change is
justifiable.


Best regards,
Georgios







> -----Original Message-----
> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com] 
> Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 13:01
> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum 
> rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> 
> Well, if you include your sentence that means you don't agree!
> 
> As i said, i don't think this is a good idea. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Georgios Karagiannis [mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl]
> Sent: 14 April 2011 11:59
> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum 
> rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> 
> Hi Phil
> 
> Agree, but maybe the following sentence could solve the problem!
> 
> "The signaling protocol SHOULD be able to carry a rate value 
> that can at least be fitted in a 32 bit container/field, when 
> using the IEEE floating point number encoding."
> 
> The above is based on the fact that a token bucket rate 
> carried in a RSVP SENDER_TSPEC Object (see RFC2210), uses 
> also such a container/field.
> 
> Best regards,
> Georgios
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 12:29
> > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum rate 
> > value carried by signaling protocol?
> > 
> > I dont think this belongs in this document. Seems it can be left to 
> > the actual signalling protocol and configuration in the 
> actual network 
> > it's operating in. Anyway, if we specify a particular 
> maximum we also 
> > need to specify format and that requires some work on what ways are 
> > currently considered best.
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of 
> > Georgios Karagiannis
> > Sent: 13 April 2011 17:28
> > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum rate 
> > value carried by signaling protocol?
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > Hi all
> > 
> > >From the WGLC discussions regarding
> > >draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> > I identified two open issues:
> > 
> > This email contains the first open issue:
> >  
> > Issue_1: It is proposed that
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend 
> which maximum 
> > rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol.
> > 
> > This will mean that the PCN WG will recommend to the signaling 
> > protocol designers to use a container/field that is able to 
> carry this 
> > maximum rate value (in octets/s).
> > 
> > Question: Do you agree/disagree with the fact that 
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend 
> which maximum 
> > rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol?
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of
> > > Georgios Karagiannis
> > > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:56
> > > To: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [PCN] Perhaps some additions 
> > > requiredfordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > 
> > > Hi Phil
> > > 
> > > You are right about the encoding. Therefore, we might 
> also need to 
> > > define the way of how this value is encoded.
> > > 
> > > In RFC 2210 all the rate values are encoded using: 32-bit IEEE 
> > > floating point number.
> > > 
> > > I am not sure if it is good lo leave this decision to 
> other desigbn 
> > > teams than the PCN WG.
> > > 
> > > The values of these rates are affecting the accuracy of the
> > provided
> > > PCN solutions, in particular when they get another value 
> than they 
> > > should.
> > > 
> > > Best regards,
> > > Georgios
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > > > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:34
> > > > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required 
> > > > fordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > 
> > > > I dont think this is needed in either signalling reqts or edge 
> > > > behaviour docs. I think this would be up to the actual 
> signalling 
> > > > protocol to define, or perhaps the configuration in a 
> particular 
> > > > PCN-domain.
> > > > Note also that defining a field length doesn't define the
> > > max value,
> > > > as this depends on the encoding [for instance, 1 byte 
> might be an 
> > > > exponent]
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of
> > > > Georgios Karagiannis
> > > > Sent: 07 April 2011 10:20
> > > > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for 
> > > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > 
> > > > Hi all
> > > > 
> > > > Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts
> > > and what we
> > > > currently have in the 03 version of the signaling
> > > requirements draft,
> > > > I see that some information associated with the
> > information that a
> > > > signaling protocol should carry is missing. In particular,
> > > we are not
> > > > specifying what is the maximum value of the rates that a
> > signaling
> > > > protocol should be able to carry. This is important in order to 
> > > > specify what will be maximum length of the field that
> > > carries such a
> > > > maximum rate.
> > > > 
> > > > In particular we need to have these maximum values for the
> > > following
> > > > rates:
> > > > 
> > > >    o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in
> > octets/second,
> > > >    o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
> > > >    o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in 
> > > >      octets/second,
> > > >    o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in 
> > > > octets/second,
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > We could use a field of 32 bits long => Maximum rate
> > value = 2^32 =
> > > > 4294967296 octets/s)
> > > > 
> > > > Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable? 
> > > > 
> > > > Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate 
> value in the 
> > > > signaling requirements draft, or should we do this in the edge 
> > > > behaviour drafts?
> > > > 
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Georgios
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org]
> > > On Behalf
> > > > > Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > > > Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
> > > > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > > > > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > > Subject: [PCN] I-D
> > > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > > 
> > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > > Internet-Drafts
> > > > > directories.
> > > > > This draft is a work item of the Congestion and 
> Pre-Congestion 
> > > > > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) 
> > > > > Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > > > > 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > > > > 	Filename        : 
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > > 	Pages           : 7
> > > > > 	Date            : 2011-04-05
> > > > > 
> > > > > Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
> > > protecting quality
> > > > > of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv
> > > domain. The
> > > > > overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo 
> > > > > describes the requirements for the signaling applied
> > > within the PCN
> > > > > domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> > > > > PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision
> > point may
> > > > > ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back,
> > > the rate of
> > > > > PCN-traffic between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes. 
> > The decision
> > > > > point may be either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a 
> > > > > centralized node (in the latter case, (2) is not 
> required). The 
> > > > > signaling requirements pertain in particular to two edge
> > > behaviours,
> > > > > "controlled load (CL)"
> > > > > and "single marking (SM)" 
> [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08],
> > > > > [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > > > > 
> > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
> > > > equirements-03.txt
> > > > > 
> > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > > > > 
> > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant
> > mail reader
> > > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII
> > version of the
> > > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > PCN mailing list
> > > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > PCN mailing list
> > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > 
> 
> 



From toby@moncaster.com  Thu Apr 14 04:31:14 2011
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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements	recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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There seem to be two competing things - firstly, we need to give some
indication of the scale of number that needs to be signalled (e.g. a short
integer is probably not enough!). BUT we mustn't impose an unnecessary limit
on the maximum since this puts a limit on future growth (just look at IPv4
addressing).

The usual cop-out in such cases is not to recommend anything but to have a
sentence setting out the discussion. Something like

"The rate value carried by the signalling protocol will limit the maximum
rate that PCN can use. If signalling space is tight it might be reasonable
to impose a limit, but any such limit may impose unnecessary constraints in
future"

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> philip.eardley@bt.com
> Sent: 14 April 2011 12:01
> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-
> requirements recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling
> protocol?
> 
> Well, if you include your sentence that means you don't agree!
> 
> As i said, i don't think this is a good idea.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Georgios Karagiannis [mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl]
> Sent: 14 April 2011 11:59
> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-
> requirements recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling
> protocol?
> 
> Hi Phil
> 
> Agree, but maybe the following sentence could solve the problem!
> 
> "The signaling protocol SHOULD be able to carry a rate value that can
> at
> least be fitted in a 32 bit container/field, when using the IEEE
> floating
> point number encoding."
> 
> The above is based on the fact that a token bucket rate carried in a
> RSVP
> SENDER_TSPEC Object (see RFC2210), uses also such a container/field.
> 
> Best regards,
> Georgios
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 12:29
> > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum
> > rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> >
> > I dont think this belongs in this document. Seems it can be
> > left to the actual signalling protocol and configuration in
> > the actual network it's operating in. Anyway, if we specify a
> > particular maximum we also need to specify format and that
> > requires some work on what ways are currently considered best.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> > Sent: 13 April 2011 17:28
> > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum
> > rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > >From the WGLC discussions regarding
> > >draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> > I identified two open issues:
> >
> > This email contains the first open issue:
> >
> > Issue_1: It is proposed that
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend which
> > maximum rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol.
> >
> > This will mean that the PCN WG will recommend to the
> > signaling protocol designers to use a container/field that is
> > able to carry this maximum rate value (in octets/s).
> >
> > Question: Do you agree/disagree with the fact that
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend which
> > maximum rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of
> > > Georgios Karagiannis
> > > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:56
> > > To: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [PCN] Perhaps some additions
> > > requiredfordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > >
> > > Hi Phil
> > >
> > > You are right about the encoding. Therefore, we might also need to
> > > define the way of how this value is encoded.
> > >
> > > In RFC 2210 all the rate values are encoded using: 32-bit IEEE
> > > floating point number.
> > >
> > > I am not sure if it is good lo leave this decision to other desigbn
> > > teams than the PCN WG.
> > >
> > > The values of these rates are affecting the accuracy of the
> > provided
> > > PCN solutions, in particular when they get another value than they
> > > should.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Georgios
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > > > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:34
> > > > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required
> > > > fordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > >
> > > > I dont think this is needed in either signalling reqts or edge
> > > > behaviour docs. I think this would be up to the actual signalling
> > > > protocol to define, or perhaps the configuration in a particular
> > > > PCN-domain.
> > > > Note also that defining a field length doesn't define the
> > > max value,
> > > > as this depends on the encoding [for instance, 1 byte might be an
> > > > exponent]
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of
> > > > Georgios Karagiannis
> > > > Sent: 07 April 2011 10:20
> > > > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for
> > > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > >
> > > > Hi all
> > > >
> > > > Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts
> > > and what we
> > > > currently have in the 03 version of the signaling
> > > requirements draft,
> > > > I see that some information associated with the
> > information that a
> > > > signaling protocol should carry is missing. In particular,
> > > we are not
> > > > specifying what is the maximum value of the rates that a
> > signaling
> > > > protocol should be able to carry. This is important in order to
> > > > specify what will be maximum length of the field that
> > > carries such a
> > > > maximum rate.
> > > >
> > > > In particular we need to have these maximum values for the
> > > following
> > > > rates:
> > > >
> > > >    o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in
> > octets/second,
> > > >    o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
> > > >    o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in
> > > >      octets/second,
> > > >    o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in
> > > > octets/second,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We could use a field of 32 bits long => Maximum rate
> > value = 2^32 =
> > > > 4294967296 octets/s)
> > > >
> > > > Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable?
> > > >
> > > > Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate value in the
> > > > signaling requirements draft, or should we do this in the edge
> > > > behaviour drafts?
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Georgios
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org]
> > > On Behalf
> > > > > Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > > > Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
> > > > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > > > > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > > Subject: [PCN] I-D
> > > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > >
> > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > > Internet-Drafts
> > > > > directories.
> > > > > This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion
> > > > > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-)
> > > > > Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > > > > 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > > > > 	Filename        :
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > > 	Pages           : 7
> > > > > 	Date            : 2011-04-05
> > > > >
> > > > > Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
> > > protecting quality
> > > > > of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv
> > > domain. The
> > > > > overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo
> > > > > describes the requirements for the signaling applied
> > > within the PCN
> > > > > domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> > > > > PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision
> > point may
> > > > > ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back,
> > > the rate of
> > > > > PCN-traffic between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes.
> > The decision
> > > > > point may be either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a
> > > > > centralized node (in the latter case, (2) is not required). The
> > > > > signaling requirements pertain in particular to two edge
> > > behaviours,
> > > > > "controlled load (CL)"
> > > > > and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-
> 08],
> > > > > [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > > > >
> > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
> > > > equirements-03.txt
> > > > >
> > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > > > >
> > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant
> > mail reader
> > > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII
> > version of the
> > > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > PCN mailing list
> > > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > PCN mailing list
> > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


From philip.eardley@bt.com  Thu Apr 14 04:31:59 2011
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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:31:56 +0100
Thread-Topic: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements	recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements	recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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wfm

-----Original Message-----
From: Toby Moncaster [mailto:toby@moncaster.com]=20
Sent: 14 April 2011 12:31
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requiremen=
ts recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?

There seem to be two competing things - firstly, we need to give some
indication of the scale of number that needs to be signalled (e.g. a short
integer is probably not enough!). BUT we mustn't impose an unnecessary limi=
t
on the maximum since this puts a limit on future growth (just look at IPv4
addressing).

The usual cop-out in such cases is not to recommend anything but to have a
sentence setting out the discussion. Something like

"The rate value carried by the signalling protocol will limit the maximum
rate that PCN can use. If signalling space is tight it might be reasonable
to impose a limit, but any such limit may impose unnecessary constraints in
future"

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> philip.eardley@bt.com
> Sent: 14 April 2011 12:01
> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-
> requirements recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling
> protocol?
>=20
> Well, if you include your sentence that means you don't agree!
>=20
> As i said, i don't think this is a good idea.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Georgios Karagiannis [mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl]
> Sent: 14 April 2011 11:59
> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-
> requirements recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling
> protocol?
>=20
> Hi Phil
>=20
> Agree, but maybe the following sentence could solve the problem!
>=20
> "The signaling protocol SHOULD be able to carry a rate value that can
> at
> least be fitted in a 32 bit container/field, when using the IEEE
> floating
> point number encoding."
>=20
> The above is based on the fact that a token bucket rate carried in a
> RSVP
> SENDER_TSPEC Object (see RFC2210), uses also such a container/field.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Georgios
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 12:29
> > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum
> > rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> >
> > I dont think this belongs in this document. Seems it can be
> > left to the actual signalling protocol and configuration in
> > the actual network it's operating in. Anyway, if we specify a
> > particular maximum we also need to specify format and that
> > requires some work on what ways are currently considered best.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> > Sent: 13 April 2011 17:28
> > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum
> > rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > >From the WGLC discussions regarding
> > >draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> > I identified two open issues:
> >
> > This email contains the first open issue:
> >
> > Issue_1: It is proposed that
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend which
> > maximum rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol.
> >
> > This will mean that the PCN WG will recommend to the
> > signaling protocol designers to use a container/field that is
> > able to carry this maximum rate value (in octets/s).
> >
> > Question: Do you agree/disagree with the fact that
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend which
> > maximum rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of
> > > Georgios Karagiannis
> > > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:56
> > > To: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [PCN] Perhaps some additions
> > > requiredfordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > >
> > > Hi Phil
> > >
> > > You are right about the encoding. Therefore, we might also need to
> > > define the way of how this value is encoded.
> > >
> > > In RFC 2210 all the rate values are encoded using: 32-bit IEEE
> > > floating point number.
> > >
> > > I am not sure if it is good lo leave this decision to other desigbn
> > > teams than the PCN WG.
> > >
> > > The values of these rates are affecting the accuracy of the
> > provided
> > > PCN solutions, in particular when they get another value than they
> > > should.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Georgios
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > > > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:34
> > > > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required
> > > > fordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > >
> > > > I dont think this is needed in either signalling reqts or edge
> > > > behaviour docs. I think this would be up to the actual signalling
> > > > protocol to define, or perhaps the configuration in a particular
> > > > PCN-domain.
> > > > Note also that defining a field length doesn't define the
> > > max value,
> > > > as this depends on the encoding [for instance, 1 byte might be an
> > > > exponent]
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of
> > > > Georgios Karagiannis
> > > > Sent: 07 April 2011 10:20
> > > > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for
> > > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > >
> > > > Hi all
> > > >
> > > > Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts
> > > and what we
> > > > currently have in the 03 version of the signaling
> > > requirements draft,
> > > > I see that some information associated with the
> > information that a
> > > > signaling protocol should carry is missing. In particular,
> > > we are not
> > > > specifying what is the maximum value of the rates that a
> > signaling
> > > > protocol should be able to carry. This is important in order to
> > > > specify what will be maximum length of the field that
> > > carries such a
> > > > maximum rate.
> > > >
> > > > In particular we need to have these maximum values for the
> > > following
> > > > rates:
> > > >
> > > >    o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in
> > octets/second,
> > > >    o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
> > > >    o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in
> > > >      octets/second,
> > > >    o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in
> > > > octets/second,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We could use a field of 32 bits long =3D> Maximum rate
> > value =3D 2^32 =3D
> > > > 4294967296 octets/s)
> > > >
> > > > Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable?
> > > >
> > > > Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate value in the
> > > > signaling requirements draft, or should we do this in the edge
> > > > behaviour drafts?
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Georgios
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org]
> > > On Behalf
> > > > > Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > > > Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
> > > > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > > > > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > > Subject: [PCN] I-D
> > > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > >
> > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > > Internet-Drafts
> > > > > directories.
> > > > > This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion
> > > > > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-)
> > > > > Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > > > > 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > > > > 	Filename        :
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > > 	Pages           : 7
> > > > > 	Date            : 2011-04-05
> > > > >
> > > > > Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
> > > protecting quality
> > > > > of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv
> > > domain. The
> > > > > overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo
> > > > > describes the requirements for the signaling applied
> > > within the PCN
> > > > > domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> > > > > PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision
> > point may
> > > > > ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back,
> > > the rate of
> > > > > PCN-traffic between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes.
> > The decision
> > > > > point may be either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a
> > > > > centralized node (in the latter case, (2) is not required). The
> > > > > signaling requirements pertain in particular to two edge
> > > behaviours,
> > > > > "controlled load (CL)"
> > > > > and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-
> 08],
> > > > > [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > > > >
> > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
> > > > equirements-03.txt
> > > > >
> > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > > > >
> > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant
> > mail reader
> > > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII
> > version of the
> > > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > PCN mailing list
> > > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > PCN mailing list
> > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >
>=20
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To: <philip.eardley@bt.com>, <toby@moncaster.com>, <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>, <pcn@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:40:20 +0100
Thread-Topic: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements	recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements	recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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wfm =3D works for me
Sorry for the abbreviated typing!
-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of phili=
p.eardley@bt.com
Sent: 14 April 2011 12:32
To: toby@moncaster.com; karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requiremen=
ts recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?

wfm

-----Original Message-----
From: Toby Moncaster [mailto:toby@moncaster.com]=20
Sent: 14 April 2011 12:31
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requiremen=
ts recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?

There seem to be two competing things - firstly, we need to give some
indication of the scale of number that needs to be signalled (e.g. a short
integer is probably not enough!). BUT we mustn't impose an unnecessary limi=
t
on the maximum since this puts a limit on future growth (just look at IPv4
addressing).

The usual cop-out in such cases is not to recommend anything but to have a
sentence setting out the discussion. Something like

"The rate value carried by the signalling protocol will limit the maximum
rate that PCN can use. If signalling space is tight it might be reasonable
to impose a limit, but any such limit may impose unnecessary constraints in
future"

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> philip.eardley@bt.com
> Sent: 14 April 2011 12:01
> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-
> requirements recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling
> protocol?
>=20
> Well, if you include your sentence that means you don't agree!
>=20
> As i said, i don't think this is a good idea.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Georgios Karagiannis [mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl]
> Sent: 14 April 2011 11:59
> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-
> requirements recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling
> protocol?
>=20
> Hi Phil
>=20
> Agree, but maybe the following sentence could solve the problem!
>=20
> "The signaling protocol SHOULD be able to carry a rate value that can
> at
> least be fitted in a 32 bit container/field, when using the IEEE
> floating
> point number encoding."
>=20
> The above is based on the fact that a token bucket rate carried in a
> RSVP
> SENDER_TSPEC Object (see RFC2210), uses also such a container/field.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Georgios
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 12:29
> > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum
> > rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> >
> > I dont think this belongs in this document. Seems it can be
> > left to the actual signalling protocol and configuration in
> > the actual network it's operating in. Anyway, if we specify a
> > particular maximum we also need to specify format and that
> > requires some work on what ways are currently considered best.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Georgios Karagiannis
> > Sent: 13 April 2011 17:28
> > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum
> > rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > >From the WGLC discussions regarding
> > >draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> > I identified two open issues:
> >
> > This email contains the first open issue:
> >
> > Issue_1: It is proposed that
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend which
> > maximum rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol.
> >
> > This will mean that the PCN WG will recommend to the
> > signaling protocol designers to use a container/field that is
> > able to carry this maximum rate value (in octets/s).
> >
> > Question: Do you agree/disagree with the fact that
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend which
> > maximum rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of
> > > Georgios Karagiannis
> > > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:56
> > > To: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [PCN] Perhaps some additions
> > > requiredfordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > >
> > > Hi Phil
> > >
> > > You are right about the encoding. Therefore, we might also need to
> > > define the way of how this value is encoded.
> > >
> > > In RFC 2210 all the rate values are encoded using: 32-bit IEEE
> > > floating point number.
> > >
> > > I am not sure if it is good lo leave this decision to other desigbn
> > > teams than the PCN WG.
> > >
> > > The values of these rates are affecting the accuracy of the
> > provided
> > > PCN solutions, in particular when they get another value than they
> > > should.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Georgios
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > > > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:34
> > > > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required
> > > > fordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > >
> > > > I dont think this is needed in either signalling reqts or edge
> > > > behaviour docs. I think this would be up to the actual signalling
> > > > protocol to define, or perhaps the configuration in a particular
> > > > PCN-domain.
> > > > Note also that defining a field length doesn't define the
> > > max value,
> > > > as this depends on the encoding [for instance, 1 byte might be an
> > > > exponent]
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of
> > > > Georgios Karagiannis
> > > > Sent: 07 April 2011 10:20
> > > > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for
> > > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > >
> > > > Hi all
> > > >
> > > > Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts
> > > and what we
> > > > currently have in the 03 version of the signaling
> > > requirements draft,
> > > > I see that some information associated with the
> > information that a
> > > > signaling protocol should carry is missing. In particular,
> > > we are not
> > > > specifying what is the maximum value of the rates that a
> > signaling
> > > > protocol should be able to carry. This is important in order to
> > > > specify what will be maximum length of the field that
> > > carries such a
> > > > maximum rate.
> > > >
> > > > In particular we need to have these maximum values for the
> > > following
> > > > rates:
> > > >
> > > >    o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in
> > octets/second,
> > > >    o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
> > > >    o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in
> > > >      octets/second,
> > > >    o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in
> > > > octets/second,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We could use a field of 32 bits long =3D> Maximum rate
> > value =3D 2^32 =3D
> > > > 4294967296 octets/s)
> > > >
> > > > Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable?
> > > >
> > > > Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate value in the
> > > > signaling requirements draft, or should we do this in the edge
> > > > behaviour drafts?
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Georgios
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org]
> > > On Behalf
> > > > > Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > > > Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
> > > > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > > > > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > > Subject: [PCN] I-D
> > > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > >
> > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > > Internet-Drafts
> > > > > directories.
> > > > > This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion
> > > > > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-)
> > > > > Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > > > > 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > > > > 	Filename        :
> > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > > 	Pages           : 7
> > > > > 	Date            : 2011-04-05
> > > > >
> > > > > Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
> > > protecting quality
> > > > > of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv
> > > domain. The
> > > > > overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo
> > > > > describes the requirements for the signaling applied
> > > within the PCN
> > > > > domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> > > > > PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision
> > point may
> > > > > ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back,
> > > the rate of
> > > > > PCN-traffic between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes.
> > The decision
> > > > > point may be either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or a
> > > > > centralized node (in the latter case, (2) is not required). The
> > > > > signaling requirements pertain in particular to two edge
> > > behaviours,
> > > > > "controlled load (CL)"
> > > > > and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-
> 08],
> > > > > [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > > > >
> > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
> > > > equirements-03.txt
> > > > >
> > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > > > >
> > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant
> > mail reader
> > > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII
> > version of the
> > > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > PCN mailing list
> > > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > PCN mailing list
> > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

_______________________________________________
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PCN@ietf.org
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From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Thu Apr 14 04:47:24 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: <philip.eardley@bt.com>, <toby@moncaster.com>, <pcn@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements	recommend which maximum rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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Hi all

The below sentence satisfies only partially my concerns! However, if there
are no objections then I will use the below sentence in the signaling
requirements draft!

"The rate value carried by the signalling protocol will limit the maximum
rate that PCN can use. If signalling space is tight it might be reasonable
to impose a limit, but any such limit may impose unnecessary constraints in
future."

Best regards,
Georgios


 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com] 
> Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 13:40
> To: philip.eardley@bt.com; toby@moncaster.com; 
> karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum 
> rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> 
> wfm = works for me
> Sorry for the abbreviated typing!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com
> Sent: 14 April 2011 12:32
> To: toby@moncaster.com; karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum 
> rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> 
> wfm
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toby Moncaster [mailto:toby@moncaster.com]
> Sent: 14 April 2011 12:31
> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum 
> rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> 
> There seem to be two competing things - firstly, we need to 
> give some indication of the scale of number that needs to be 
> signalled (e.g. a short integer is probably not enough!). BUT 
> we mustn't impose an unnecessary limit on the maximum since 
> this puts a limit on future growth (just look at IPv4 addressing).
> 
> The usual cop-out in such cases is not to recommend anything 
> but to have a sentence setting out the discussion. Something like
> 
> "The rate value carried by the signalling protocol will limit 
> the maximum rate that PCN can use. If signalling space is 
> tight it might be reasonable to impose a limit, but any such 
> limit may impose unnecessary constraints in future"
> 
> Toby
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of 
> > philip.eardley@bt.com
> > Sent: 14 April 2011 12:01
> > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling- 
> > requirements recommend which maximum rate value carried by 
> signaling 
> > protocol?
> > 
> > Well, if you include your sentence that means you don't agree!
> > 
> > As i said, i don't think this is a good idea.
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Georgios Karagiannis [mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl]
> > Sent: 14 April 2011 11:59
> > To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling- 
> > requirements recommend which maximum rate value carried by 
> signaling 
> > protocol?
> > 
> > Hi Phil
> > 
> > Agree, but maybe the following sentence could solve the problem!
> > 
> > "The signaling protocol SHOULD be able to carry a rate 
> value that can 
> > at least be fitted in a 32 bit container/field, when using the IEEE 
> > floating point number encoding."
> > 
> > The above is based on the fact that a token bucket rate 
> carried in a 
> > RSVP SENDER_TSPEC Object (see RFC2210), uses also such a 
> > container/field.
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > > Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 12:29
> > > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which 
> maximum rate 
> > > value carried by signaling protocol?
> > >
> > > I dont think this belongs in this document. Seems it can 
> be left to 
> > > the actual signalling protocol and configuration in the actual 
> > > network it's operating in. Anyway, if we specify a particular 
> > > maximum we also need to specify format and that requires 
> some work 
> > > on what ways are currently considered best.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] 
> On Behalf 
> > > Of Georgios Karagiannis
> > > Sent: 13 April 2011 17:28
> > > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should
> > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which 
> maximum rate 
> > > value carried by signaling protocol?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi all
> > >
> > > >From the WGLC discussions regarding
> > > >draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> > > I identified two open issues:
> > >
> > > This email contains the first open issue:
> > >
> > > Issue_1: It is proposed that
> > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend 
> which maximum 
> > > rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol.
> > >
> > > This will mean that the PCN WG will recommend to the signaling 
> > > protocol designers to use a container/field that is able to carry 
> > > this maximum rate value (in octets/s).
> > >
> > > Question: Do you agree/disagree with the fact that 
> > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend 
> which maximum 
> > > rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Georgios
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of
> > > > Georgios Karagiannis
> > > > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:56
> > > > To: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [PCN] Perhaps some additions 
> > > > requiredfordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > >
> > > > Hi Phil
> > > >
> > > > You are right about the encoding. Therefore, we might 
> also need to 
> > > > define the way of how this value is encoded.
> > > >
> > > > In RFC 2210 all the rate values are encoded using: 32-bit IEEE 
> > > > floating point number.
> > > >
> > > > I am not sure if it is good lo leave this decision to other 
> > > > desigbn teams than the PCN WG.
> > > >
> > > > The values of these rates are affecting the accuracy of the
> > > provided
> > > > PCN solutions, in particular when they get another 
> value than they 
> > > > should.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Georgios
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> > > > > Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:34
> > > > > To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> > > > > Subject: RE: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required 
> > > > > fordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > >
> > > > > I dont think this is needed in either signalling 
> reqts or edge 
> > > > > behaviour docs. I think this would be up to the actual 
> > > > > signalling protocol to define, or perhaps the 
> configuration in a 
> > > > > particular PCN-domain.
> > > > > Note also that defining a field length doesn't define the
> > > > max value,
> > > > > as this depends on the encoding [for instance, 1 byte 
> might be 
> > > > > an exponent]
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of
> > > > > Georgios Karagiannis
> > > > > Sent: 07 April 2011 10:20
> > > > > To: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > > Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for 
> > > > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi all
> > > > >
> > > > > Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts
> > > > and what we
> > > > > currently have in the 03 version of the signaling
> > > > requirements draft,
> > > > > I see that some information associated with the
> > > information that a
> > > > > signaling protocol should carry is missing. In particular,
> > > > we are not
> > > > > specifying what is the maximum value of the rates that a
> > > signaling
> > > > > protocol should be able to carry. This is important 
> in order to 
> > > > > specify what will be maximum length of the field that
> > > > carries such a
> > > > > maximum rate.
> > > > >
> > > > > In particular we need to have these maximum values for the
> > > > following
> > > > > rates:
> > > > >
> > > > >    o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in
> > > octets/second,
> > > > >    o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
> > > > >    o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in
> > > > >      octets/second,
> > > > >    o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in 
> > > > > octets/second,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > We could use a field of 32 bits long => Maximum rate
> > > value = 2^32 =
> > > > > 4294967296 octets/s)
> > > > >
> > > > > Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable?
> > > > >
> > > > > Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate 
> value in the 
> > > > > signaling requirements draft, or should we do this in 
> the edge 
> > > > > behaviour drafts?
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > Georgios
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org]
> > > > On Behalf
> > > > > > Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > > > > Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
> > > > > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > > > > > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > > > Subject: [PCN] I-D
> > > > > Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > > > Internet-Drafts
> > > > > > directories.
> > > > > > This draft is a work item of the Congestion and 
> Pre-Congestion 
> > > > > > Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-)
> > > > > > Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> > > > > > 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> > > > > > 	Filename        :
> > > draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> > > > > > 	Pages           : 7
> > > > > > 	Date            : 2011-04-05
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
> > > > protecting quality
> > > > > > of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv
> > > > domain. The
> > > > > > overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. 
> This memo 
> > > > > > describes the requirements for the signaling applied
> > > > within the PCN
> > > > > > domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> > > > > > PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision
> > > point may
> > > > > > ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back,
> > > > the rate of
> > > > > > PCN-traffic between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes.
> > > The decision
> > > > > > point may be either collocated with the 
> PCN-ingress-node or a 
> > > > > > centralized node (in the latter case, (2) is not required). 
> > > > > > The signaling requirements pertain in particular to two edge
> > > > behaviours,
> > > > > > "controlled load (CL)"
> > > > > > and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-
> > 08],
> > > > > > [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > > > 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
> > > > > equirements-03.txt
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > > > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant
> > > mail reader
> > > > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII
> > > version of the
> > > > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > PCN mailing list
> > > > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > PCN mailing list
> > > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > PCN mailing list
> > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 



From bob.briscoe@bt.com  Thu Apr 14 20:14:17 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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Toby,

At 11:53 14/04/2011, Toby Moncaster wrote:
>I am trying to bash the ECN compatibility text into a usable appendix for
>the document. This is what I have so far:
>
>"Appendix A.  Co-existence of ECN and PCN (informative)
>
>    The PCN encoding described in this document re-uses the bits of the
>    ECN field in the IP header.  Consequently, this disables ECN within
>    the PCN domain.

s/Consequently,/Without additional measures,/

>Appendix B of [RFC5696] included advice on handling
>    ECN traffic within a PCN-domain.  This appendix clarifies that
>    advice.

s/clarifies/updates/

[I assume you will have some sort of lead in sentence to the list here]


>    ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control and not sharing a PCN-
>    compatible DSCP: This requires no action.
>
>    ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-compatible
>    DSCP:

s/sharing a PCN-compatible DSCP/using a PCN-compatible DSCP on 
arrival at the PCN ingress/

>There are two options.
>
>       *  The ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and the egress re-
>          maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP.
>
>       *  The ingress tunnels the traffic, setting not-PCN in the outer
>          header; note that this turns off ECN for this traffic within
>          the PCN domain.
>
>       The first option is recommended unless you are short of local
>       DSCPs.

Good.

s/you are/the operator is/


>    ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control:

s/being subjected to/to be subjected to PCN control rather than ECN 
marking across the PCN domain/

>There are two options.
>
>       *  The ingress places this traffic in a tunnel with a PCN-
>          compatible DSCP in the outer header.  The egress zeroes the
>          ECN-field before decapsulation.

s/the ECN-field/the outer ECN-field/


>       *  ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field of
>          PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN.
>
>       The second option is not recommended.

No need to even mention it then, unless there's a compromise scenario 
where the 1st option wouldn't be suitable.

BTW, I don't see why the egress has to zero ECN, or indeed why this 
disables e2e ECN, unless it means it zero's the inner (and if so why?).


>    ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver indicates desire
>    to see PCN marks:
>
>       Schemes have been suggested where PCN marks may be leaked out of
>       the PCN-domain and used by the end hosts to modify realtime data
>       rates.

s/used by the end hosts to modify realtime data rates./
  /used by adaptive codecs in the end hosts to modify realtime data rates./

>Currently all such schemes are experimental and the
>       following is for guidance only.
>
>       The ingress needs to tunnel the traffic using [RFC6040].  The PCN-
>       egress should not zero the ECN field,

Don't agree. ECN should never leak into PCN, but PCN might be OK to 
leak to ECN receiver.

Reasoning: admission of a flow should only depend on PCN marking 
within the PCN region. It shouldn't depend on ECN marking from queues 
outside the PCN region, which will not have been configured to give 
good signals at the right load levels.

The reverse argument seems less likely to apply to leaking PCN to 
receiver, because any decent level of PCN will usefully trigger a 
lower rate, thus potentially avoiding the need to block admissions.

>and the tunnel egress should
>       use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-marking).

There are no modes for an RFC6040 egress. Modes are only for the ingress.

The important point is not what the tunnel egress does (assuming the 
arrangement in the Fig below), but that the PCN egress doesn't zero 
the outer ECN field.

>Note that
>       this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not compatible with the
>       experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].

s/this/PCN marking on interior nodes/


>    In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be used unless
>    specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of tunneling
>    and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress nodes.  That is,
>    any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-domain as
>    illustrated in the following figure:
>
>
>                 ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>                .   ,--------.                   ,--------.    .
>               .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-  |_   .
>               .  / | ingress |                   | egress | \  .
>                .|  '---------'                   '--------'  |.
>                 | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .|
>            ,--------.                                     ,--------.
>      _____| Tunnel  |                                     | Tunnel |____
>           | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - | Egress |
>           '---------'                                     '--------'
>
>
>              Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN actions
>"

nice ASCII art.


>I hope this captures all the key elements from the discussion.
>
>I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards to updating
>RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be dependent on it as
>well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a standalone
>section:
>
>"Section N. Effect on baseline encoding
>
>The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01 codepoint was for use
>in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such experiments. This
>document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning. Consequently this
>document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01 codepoint for
>experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept the risk that
>PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be compatible with
>their experiment."

It would be dangerous for me to respond to this now - I'm too tired 
to think straight. But my gut feeling is that the wording should lean 
more towards "updates", and less towards appearing to encourage more 
experimentation, which would run counter to interoperability - the 
raison d'etre of a standards body.




>Two inline responses to Michael at the end

One from me too...



>Toby
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > Toby Moncaster
> > Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
> > To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
> > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> >
> > I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on this
> > draft:
> >
> > 1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
> >
> > 2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively updates
> > RFC5696
> > and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on their
> > own
> > (which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an experiment!).
> >
> > 3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
> >
> > I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline which is
> > that
> > this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
> >
> > Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see it we are
> > always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance I am not
> > sure
> > if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding being
> > dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
> >
> > Of course we could always revive the option we discussed, where we
> > obsolete
> > RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft (which
> > could
> > then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
> >
> > Thoughts anyone?
> >
> > Toby
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> > > Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
> > > To: Michael Menth
> > > Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > >
> > > At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
> > > >Hi all,
> > > >
> > > >to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a
> > > >slight rewording:
> > > >
> > > >Handling of ECN traffic
> > > >* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
> > > >PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > >     - no action needed
> > > >* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
> > > >PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > >     - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > > in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
> > > >     - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and egress
> > > > re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > >     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in the
> > > > outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of ECN
> > > > for this traffic within the PCN domain.
> > >
> > > We ought to recommend one:
> > > #2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain extent.
> > > THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs (e.g.
> > > MPLS or Ethernet).
> > > #1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same. So
> > > #1 can be chucked.
> > >
> > > >* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
> > > >     - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field of
> > > > PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
> > >
> > > Not recommended
> > >
> > > >     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
> > > > PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
> > > > ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
> > >
> > > recommended
> > >
> > > >* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
> > > >indicated to receive PCN marks
> > > >     - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP but
> > > > the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation
> > > > according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn ECT(0)
> > > > into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
> > >
> > > Good point.
> > > This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.
> > >
> > >
> > > >Another two questions
> > > >* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is subject
> > > >to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems to be
> > > >a similar issue.
> > >
> > > Similar to what?
>
>What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the DSCP of an
>arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet, should that change
>be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to get rather
>obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of suitable DSCPs for
>PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an existing DSCP
>providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an operator chooses
>to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so. If I recall
>right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains anyway...
>
>
> > >
> > > >* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > >interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics? Have
> > > >we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
> > >
> > > Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
>
>Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need to state this
>anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-domain. IN
>appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a marking behaviour for
>use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues

Given we are talking about e2e ECN support across a PCN domain, it 
would do no harm to reinforce the idea that a DSCP cannot even be 
considered PCN-compatible when it is outside a PCN domain - it has 
its usual scheulding PHB, but its congestion marking behaviour is the 
ECN default, not PCN.


Bob



> > >
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> > > >Best wishes,
> > > >
> > > >     Michael
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > >University of Tuebingen
> > > >Faculty of Science
> > > >Department of Computer Science
> > > >Chair of Communication Networks
> > > >Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > >phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > >fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > >mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > >http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________________________
> > > Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design 


From slblake@petri-meat.com  Thu Apr 14 21:32:38 2011
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From: Steven Blake <slblake@petri-meat.com>
To: Georgios Karagiannis <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] New version: draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05 (start abbreviated WGLC?)
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On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 17:32 +0200, Georgios Karagiannis wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> I have just submitted draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05, see below. 
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05.tx
> t
> 
> I have used all provided comments, including comments that were provided by
> Gorry Fairhust on a paper version of the pcn encoding draft. In the
> attachment of this email I am including a pdf (05) version of the draft,
> which includes track changes. These track changes show how I have worked out
> the comments provided by Gorry Fairhust.
> 
> Steve and/or Scott shall we start an abbreviated WGLC on
> draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05?

Thanks Georgios.

This begins a one-week WGLC on this draft, to conclude next Friday April
22.  Please send comments to the list, and don't forget the WGLC for
draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.


Regards,

// Steve


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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
To: "'Bob Briscoe'" <bob.briscoe@bt.com>
References: <4D9448F9.7040309@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <002e01cbef88$b1cc7b70$15657250$@com> <4D94EF65.20001@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <4D958E90.4060103@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <201104011222.p31CMCas029062@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> <003e01cbf074$d2042270$760c6750$@com> <000c01cbfa92$38da9750$aa8fc5f0$@com> <201104150314.p3F3E8HU001775@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> Sent: 15 April 2011 04:14
> To: Toby Moncaster
> Cc: 'Toby Moncaster'; 'Michael Menth'; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> 
> Toby,
> 
> At 11:53 14/04/2011, Toby Moncaster wrote:
> >I am trying to bash the ECN compatibility text into a usable appendix
> for
> >the document. This is what I have so far:
> >
> >"Appendix A.  Co-existence of ECN and PCN (informative)
> >
> >    The PCN encoding described in this document re-uses the bits of
> the
> >    ECN field in the IP header.  Consequently, this disables ECN
> within
> >    the PCN domain.
> 
> s/Consequently,/Without additional measures,/
> 
> >Appendix B of [RFC5696] included advice on handling
> >    ECN traffic within a PCN-domain.  This appendix clarifies that
> >    advice.
> 
> s/clarifies/updates/
> 
> [I assume you will have some sort of lead in sentence to the list here]

Yes, but inspiration was proving elusive... 


> 
> 
> >    ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control and not sharing a PCN-
> >    compatible DSCP: This requires no action.
> >
> >    ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-
> compatible
> >    DSCP:
> 
> s/sharing a PCN-compatible DSCP/using a PCN-compatible DSCP on
> arrival at the PCN ingress/
> 
> >There are two options.
> >
> >       *  The ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and the egress re-
> >          maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP.
> >
> >       *  The ingress tunnels the traffic, setting not-PCN in the
> outer
> >          header; note that this turns off ECN for this traffic within
> >          the PCN domain.
> >
> >       The first option is recommended unless you are short of local
> >       DSCPs.
> 
> Good.
> 
> s/you are/the operator is/
> 
> 
> >    ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control:
> 
> s/being subjected to/to be subjected to PCN control rather than ECN
> marking across the PCN domain/
> 
> >There are two options.
> >
> >       *  The ingress places this traffic in a tunnel with a PCN-
> >          compatible DSCP in the outer header.  The egress zeroes the
> >          ECN-field before decapsulation.
> 
> s/the ECN-field/the outer ECN-field/
> 
> 
> >       *  ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field
> of
> >          PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN.
> >
> >       The second option is not recommended.
> 
> No need to even mention it then, unless there's a compromise scenario
> where the 1st option wouldn't be suitable.
> 
> BTW, I don't see why the egress has to zero ECN, or indeed why this
> disables e2e ECN, unless it means it zero's the inner (and if so why?).

Surely the PCN-egress has to zero the ECN field before the packet is
decapsulated? Otherwise the decapsulator will transfer the PCN marking from
the PCN-domain onto the ECN packet...

> 
> 
> >    ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver indicates
> desire
> >    to see PCN marks:
> >
> >       Schemes have been suggested where PCN marks may be leaked out
> of
> >       the PCN-domain and used by the end hosts to modify realtime
> data
> >       rates.
> 
> s/used by the end hosts to modify realtime data rates./
>   /used by adaptive codecs in the end hosts to modify realtime data
> rates./
> 
> >Currently all such schemes are experimental and the
> >       following is for guidance only.
> >
> >       The ingress needs to tunnel the traffic using [RFC6040].  The
> PCN-
> >       egress should not zero the ECN field,
> 
> Don't agree. ECN should never leak into PCN, but PCN might be OK to
> leak to ECN receiver.

I'm not allowing ECN to leak into PCN. I am (in limited circumstances)
allowing the PCN-domain to over-write the ECN information and hence leak PCN
information to the receiver.

> 
> Reasoning: admission of a flow should only depend on PCN marking
> within the PCN region. It shouldn't depend on ECN marking from queues
> outside the PCN region, which will not have been configured to give
> good signals at the right load levels.

Oh, I think I see your point. RFC6040 tunnels will set the ECN of the outer
header to whatever is in the inner header. BUT you are forgetting that the
default behaviour of the PCN-ingress is to clear whatever is in the outer
header and set it to 10 (if the traffic is PCN) or 00 (if the traffic is
not-PCN)

> 
> The reverse argument seems less likely to apply to leaking PCN to
> receiver, because any decent level of PCN will usefully trigger a
> lower rate, thus potentially avoiding the need to block admissions.
> 
> >and the tunnel egress should
> >       use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-marking).
> 
> There are no modes for an RFC6040 egress. Modes are only for the
> ingress.

OK, noted. I did know that really, I was being careless.

> 
> The important point is not what the tunnel egress does (assuming the
> arrangement in the Fig below), but that the PCN egress doesn't zero
> the outer ECN field.

Indeed...

> 
> >Note that
> >       this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not compatible with
> the
> >       experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].
> 
> s/this/PCN marking on interior nodes/
> 
> 
> >    In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be used unless
> >    specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of tunneling
> >    and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress nodes.  That
> is,
> >    any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-domain as
> >    illustrated in the following figure:
> >
> >
> >                 ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> >                .   ,--------.                   ,--------.    .
> >               .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-  |_   .
> >               .  / | ingress |                   | egress | \  .
> >                .|  '---------'                   '--------'  |.
> >                 | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .|
> >            ,--------.                                     ,--------.
> >      _____| Tunnel  |                                     | Tunnel
> |____
> >           | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - | Egress |
> >           '---------'                                     '--------'
> >
> >
> >              Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN actions
> >"
> 
> nice ASCII art.

Thanks :)

> 
> 
> >I hope this captures all the key elements from the discussion.
> >
> >I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards to
> updating
> >RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be dependent on it
> as
> >well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a standalone
> >section:
> >
> >"Section N. Effect on baseline encoding
> >
> >The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01 codepoint was
> for use
> >in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such experiments.
> This
> >document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning. Consequently
> this
> >document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01 codepoint for
> >experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept the risk
> that
> >PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be compatible
> with
> >their experiment."
> 
> It would be dangerous for me to respond to this now - I'm too tired
> to think straight. But my gut feeling is that the wording should lean
> more towards "updates", and less towards appearing to encourage more
> experimentation, which would run counter to interoperability - the
> raison d'etre of a standards body.

OK, I can probably highlight that we are not recommending people start
experiments, but if they are already using the EXP codepoint for anything
else they need to be aware of this clash...

> 
> 
> 
> 
> >Two inline responses to Michael at the end
> 
> One from me too...
> 
> 
> 
> >Toby
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > > Toby Moncaster
> > > Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
> > > To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
> > > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > >
> > > I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on this
> > > draft:
> > >
> > > 1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
> > >
> > > 2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively updates
> > > RFC5696
> > > and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on
> their
> > > own
> > > (which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an experiment!).
> > >
> > > 3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
> > >
> > > I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline
> which is
> > > that
> > > this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
> > >
> > > Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see it we
> are
> > > always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance I am
> not
> > > sure
> > > if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding being
> > > dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
> > >
> > > Of course we could always revive the option we discussed, where we
> > > obsolete
> > > RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft
> (which
> > > could
> > > then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
> > >
> > > Thoughts anyone?
> > >
> > > Toby
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> > > > Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
> > > > To: Michael Menth
> > > > Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > > >
> > > > Michael,
> > > >
> > > > At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
> > > > >Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > >to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a
> > > > >slight rewording:
> > > > >
> > > > >Handling of ECN traffic
> > > > >* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
> > > > >PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > > >     - no action needed
> > > > >* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
> > > > >PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > > >     - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible
> DSCP
> > > > > in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
> > > > >     - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and
> egress
> > > > > re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > > >     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in
> the
> > > > > outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of
> ECN
> > > > > for this traffic within the PCN domain.
> > > >
> > > > We ought to recommend one:
> > > > #2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain
> extent.
> > > > THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs
> (e.g.
> > > > MPLS or Ethernet).
> > > > #1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same.
> So
> > > > #1 can be chucked.
> > > >
> > > > >* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
> > > > >     - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN
> field of
> > > > > PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
> > > >
> > > > Not recommended
> > > >
> > > > >     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
> > > > > PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
> > > > > ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
> > > >
> > > > recommended
> > > >
> > > > >* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
> > > > >indicated to receive PCN marks
> > > > >     - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
> but
> > > > > the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation
> > > > > according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn
> ECT(0)
> > > > > into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
> > > >
> > > > Good point.
> > > > This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Another two questions
> > > > >* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is
> subject
> > > > >to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems
> to be
> > > > >a similar issue.
> > > >
> > > > Similar to what?
> >
> >What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the DSCP of an
> >arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet, should that
> change
> >be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to get rather
> >obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of suitable
> DSCPs for
> >PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an existing
> DSCP
> >providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an operator
> chooses
> >to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so. If I
> recall
> >right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains anyway...
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > >* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > > >interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics?
> Have
> > > > >we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
> > > >
> > > > Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
> >
> >Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need to state
> this
> >anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-domain. IN
> >appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a marking
> behaviour for
> >use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues
> 
> Given we are talking about e2e ECN support across a PCN domain, it
> would do no harm to reinforce the idea that a DSCP cannot even be
> considered PCN-compatible when it is outside a PCN domain - it has
> its usual scheulding PHB, but its congestion marking behaviour is the
> ECN default, not PCN.

Would adding the following (in a suitable place) suffice?:

"PCN is in effect a congestion marking behaviour for use with realtime
traffic in a controlled domain. As such, within the PCN-domain, PCN marking
replaces ECN marking for any PCN-enabled DSCPs. Outside the PCN-domain, ECN
remains the default behaviour for all DSCPs."

Toby

> 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Best wishes,
> > > > >
> > > > >     Michael
> > > > >
> > > > >--
> > > > >Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > > >University of Tuebingen
> > > > >Faculty of Science
> > > > >Department of Computer Science
> > > > >Chair of Communication Networks
> > > > >Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > > >phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > > >fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > > >mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > > >http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________________________________________
> > > > Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > PCN mailing list
> > > PCN@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design


From menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Apr 15 01:52:20 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should	draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum	rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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Hi Georgios,

Am 14.04.2011 13:46, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
> Hi all
>
> The below sentence satisfies only partially my concerns! However, if there
> are no objections then I will use the below sentence in the signaling
> requirements draft!
>
> "The rate value carried by

you probably mean: the number format ant the rate units used by

Regards,

     Michael

> the signalling protocol will limit the maximum
> rate that PCN can use. If signalling space is tight it might be reasonable
> to impose a limit, but any such limit may impose unnecessary constraints in
> future."
>
> Best regards,
> Georgios
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
>> Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 13:40
>> To: philip.eardley@bt.com; toby@moncaster.com;
>> karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should
>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum
>> rate value carried by signaling protocol?
>>
>> wfm = works for me
>> Sorry for the abbreviated typing!
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com
>> Sent: 14 April 2011 12:32
>> To: toby@moncaster.com; karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should
>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum
>> rate value carried by signaling protocol?
>>
>> wfm
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Toby Moncaster [mailto:toby@moncaster.com]
>> Sent: 14 April 2011 12:31
>> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should
>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum
>> rate value carried by signaling protocol?
>>
>> There seem to be two competing things - firstly, we need to
>> give some indication of the scale of number that needs to be
>> signalled (e.g. a short integer is probably not enough!). BUT
>> we mustn't impose an unnecessary limit on the maximum since
>> this puts a limit on future growth (just look at IPv4 addressing).
>>
>> The usual cop-out in such cases is not to recommend anything
>> but to have a sentence setting out the discussion. Something like
>>
>> "The rate value carried by the signalling protocol will limit
>> the maximum rate that PCN can use. If signalling space is
>> tight it might be reasonable to impose a limit, but any such
>> limit may impose unnecessary constraints in future"
>>
>> Toby
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of
>>> philip.eardley@bt.com
>>> Sent: 14 April 2011 12:01
>>> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-
>>> requirements recommend which maximum rate value carried by
>> signaling
>>> protocol?
>>>
>>> Well, if you include your sentence that means you don't agree!
>>>
>>> As i said, i don't think this is a good idea.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Georgios Karagiannis [mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl]
>>> Sent: 14 April 2011 11:59
>>> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; pcn@ietf.org
>>> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-
>>> requirements recommend which maximum rate value carried by
>> signaling
>>> protocol?
>>>
>>> Hi Phil
>>>
>>> Agree, but maybe the following sentence could solve the problem!
>>>
>>> "The signaling protocol SHOULD be able to carry a rate
>> value that can
>>> at least be fitted in a 32 bit container/field, when using the IEEE
>>> floating point number encoding."
>>>
>>> The above is based on the fact that a token bucket rate
>> carried in a
>>> RSVP SENDER_TSPEC Object (see RFC2210), uses also such a
>>> container/field.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Georgios
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
>>>> Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 12:29
>>>> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should
>>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which
>> maximum rate
>>>> value carried by signaling protocol?
>>>>
>>>> I dont think this belongs in this document. Seems it can
>> be left to
>>>> the actual signalling protocol and configuration in the actual
>>>> network it's operating in. Anyway, if we specify a particular
>>>> maximum we also need to specify format and that requires
>> some work
>>>> on what ways are currently considered best.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org]
>> On Behalf
>>>> Of Georgios Karagiannis
>>>> Sent: 13 April 2011 17:28
>>>> To: pcn@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should
>>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which
>> maximum rate
>>>> value carried by signaling protocol?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi all
>>>>
>>>> > From the WGLC discussions regarding
>>>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
>>>> I identified two open issues:
>>>>
>>>> This email contains the first open issue:
>>>>
>>>> Issue_1: It is proposed that
>>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend
>> which maximum
>>>> rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol.
>>>>
>>>> This will mean that the PCN WG will recommend to the signaling
>>>> protocol designers to use a container/field that is able to carry
>>>> this maximum rate value (in octets/s).
>>>>
>>>> Question: Do you agree/disagree with the fact that
>>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend
>> which maximum
>>>> rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Georgios
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of
>>>>> Georgios Karagiannis
>>>>> Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:56
>>>>> To: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] Perhaps some additions
>>>>> requiredfordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> You are right about the encoding. Therefore, we might
>> also need to
>>>>> define the way of how this value is encoded.
>>>>>
>>>>> In RFC 2210 all the rate values are encoded using: 32-bit IEEE
>>>>> floating point number.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure if it is good lo leave this decision to other
>>>>> desigbn teams than the PCN WG.
>>>>>
>>>>> The values of these rates are affecting the accuracy of the
>>>> provided
>>>>> PCN solutions, in particular when they get another
>> value than they
>>>>> should.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Georgios
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
>>>>>> Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:34
>>>>>> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required
>>>>>> fordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I dont think this is needed in either signalling
>> reqts or edge
>>>>>> behaviour docs. I think this would be up to the actual
>>>>>> signalling protocol to define, or perhaps the
>> configuration in a
>>>>>> particular PCN-domain.
>>>>>> Note also that defining a field length doesn't define the
>>>>> max value,
>>>>>> as this depends on the encoding [for instance, 1 byte
>> might be
>>>>>> an exponent]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of
>>>>>> Georgios Karagiannis
>>>>>> Sent: 07 April 2011 10:20
>>>>>> To: pcn@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for
>>>>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts
>>>>> and what we
>>>>>> currently have in the 03 version of the signaling
>>>>> requirements draft,
>>>>>> I see that some information associated with the
>>>> information that a
>>>>>> signaling protocol should carry is missing. In particular,
>>>>> we are not
>>>>>> specifying what is the maximum value of the rates that a
>>>> signaling
>>>>>> protocol should be able to carry. This is important
>> in order to
>>>>>> specify what will be maximum length of the field that
>>>>> carries such a
>>>>>> maximum rate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In particular we need to have these maximum values for the
>>>>> following
>>>>>> rates:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in
>>>> octets/second,
>>>>>>     o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
>>>>>>     o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in
>>>>>>       octets/second,
>>>>>>     o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in
>>>>>> octets/second,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We could use a field of 32 bits long =>  Maximum rate
>>>> value = 2^32 =
>>>>>> 4294967296 octets/s)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate
>> value in the
>>>>>> signaling requirements draft, or should we do this in
>> the edge
>>>>>> behaviour drafts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Georgios
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org]
>>>>> On Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
>>>>>>> Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
>>>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>>>>>> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
>>>>>>> Subject: [PCN] I-D
>>>>>> Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
>>>>> Internet-Drafts
>>>>>>> directories.
>>>>>>> This draft is a work item of the Congestion and
>> Pre-Congestion
>>>>>>> Notification Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-)
>>>>>>> Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
>>>>>>> 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
>>>>>>> 	Filename        :
>>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
>>>>>>> 	Pages           : 7
>>>>>>> 	Date            : 2011-04-05
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
>>>>> protecting quality
>>>>>>> of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv
>>>>> domain. The
>>>>>>> overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559.
>> This memo
>>>>>>> describes the requirements for the signaling applied
>>>>> within the PCN
>>>>>>> domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
>>>>>>> PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision
>>>> point may
>>>>>>> ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back,
>>>>> the rate of
>>>>>>> PCN-traffic between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes.
>>>> The decision
>>>>>>> point may be either collocated with the
>> PCN-ingress-node or a
>>>>>>> centralized node (in the latter case, (2) is not required).
>>>>>>> The signaling requirements pertain in particular to two edge
>>>>> behaviours,
>>>>>>> "controlled load (CL)"
>>>>>>> and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-
>>> 08],
>>>>>>> [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>>>>
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
>>>>>> equirements-03.txt
>>>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant
>>>> mail reader
>>>>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII
>>>> version of the
>>>>>>> Internet-Draft.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> PCN mailing list
>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>> _______________________________________________
>> PCN mailing list
>> PCN@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


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To: Bob Briscoe <bob.briscoe@bt.com>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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Toby, Bob,

Am 15.04.2011 05:14, schrieb Bob Briscoe:
> Toby,
>
> At 11:53 14/04/2011, Toby Moncaster wrote:
>> I am trying to bash the ECN compatibility text into a usable appendix 
>> for
>> the document. This is what I have so far:
>>
>> "Appendix A.  Co-existence of ECN and PCN (informative)
>>
>>    The PCN encoding described in this document re-uses the bits of the
>>    ECN field in the IP header.  Consequently, this disables ECN within
>>    the PCN domain.
>
> s/Consequently,/Without additional measures,/
>
>> Appendix B of [RFC5696] included advice on handling
>>    ECN traffic within a PCN-domain.  This appendix clarifies that
>>    advice.
>
> s/clarifies/updates/
>
> [I assume you will have some sort of lead in sentence to the list here]
>
>
>>    ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control and not sharing a PCN-
>>    compatible DSCP: This requires no action.
>>
>>    ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-compatible
>>    DSCP:
>
> s/sharing a PCN-compatible DSCP/using a PCN-compatible DSCP on arrival 
> at the PCN ingress/
>
>> There are two options.
>>
>>       *  The ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and the egress re-
>>          maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP.
>>
>>       *  The ingress tunnels the traffic, setting not-PCN in the outer
>>          header; note that this turns off ECN for this traffic within
>>          the PCN domain.
>>
>>       The first option is recommended unless you are short of local
>>       DSCPs.
>
> Good.
>
> s/you are/the operator is/
>
>
>>    ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control:
>
> s/being subjected to/to be subjected to PCN control rather than ECN 
> marking across the PCN domain/
>
>> There are two options.
>>
>>       *  The ingress places this traffic in a tunnel with a PCN-
>>          compatible DSCP in the outer header.  The egress zeroes the
>>          ECN-field before decapsulation.
>
> s/the ECN-field/the outer ECN-field/
>
>
>>       *  ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field of
>>          PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN.
>>
>>       The second option is not recommended.
>
> No need to even mention it then, unless there's a compromise scenario 
> where the 1st option wouldn't be suitable.

I think we should leave the second option for networks in which 
tunneling does not work for which reasons ever.

>
> BTW, I don't see why the egress has to zero ECN, or indeed why this 
> disables e2e ECN, unless it means it zero's the inner (and if so why?).
???


>
>
>>    ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver indicates desire
>>    to see PCN marks:
>>
>>       Schemes have been suggested where PCN marks may be leaked out of
>>       the PCN-domain and used by the end hosts to modify realtime data
>>       rates.
>
> s/used by the end hosts to modify realtime data rates./
>  /used by adaptive codecs in the end hosts to modify realtime data 
> rates./
>
>> Currently all such schemes are experimental and the
>>       following is for guidance only.
>>
>>       The ingress needs to tunnel the traffic using [RFC6040].  The PCN-
>>       egress should not zero the ECN field,
>
> Don't agree. ECN should never leak into PCN, but PCN might be OK to 
> leak to ECN receiver.
>
> Reasoning: admission of a flow should only depend on PCN marking 
> within the PCN region. It shouldn't depend on ECN marking from queues 
> outside the PCN region, which will not have been configured to give 
> good signals at the right load levels.
>
> The reverse argument seems less likely to apply to leaking PCN to 
> receiver, because any decent level of PCN will usefully trigger a 
> lower rate, thus potentially avoiding the need to block admissions.
>
>> and the tunnel egress should
>>       use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-marking).
>
> There are no modes for an RFC6040 egress. Modes are only for the ingress.
>
> The important point is not what the tunnel egress does (assuming the 
> arrangement in the Fig below), but that the PCN egress doesn't zero 
> the outer ECN field.
>
>> Note that
>>       this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not compatible with the
>>       experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].
>
> s/this/PCN marking on interior nodes/
>
>
>>    In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be used unless
>>    specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of tunneling
>>    and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress nodes.  That is,
>>    any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-domain as
>>    illustrated in the following figure:
>>
>>
>>                 ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>>                .   ,--------.                   ,--------.    .
>>               .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-  |_   .
>>               .  / | ingress |                   | egress | \  .
>>                .|  '---------'                   '--------'  |.
>>                 | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .|
>>            ,--------.                                     ,--------.
>>      _____| Tunnel  |                                     | Tunnel |____
>>           | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - | Egress |
>>           '---------'                                     '--------'
>>
>>
>>              Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN actions
>> "
>
> nice ASCII art.
>
>
>> I hope this captures all the key elements from the discussion.
>>
>> I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards to updating
>> RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be dependent on it as
>> well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a standalone
>> section:
>>
>> "Section N. Effect on baseline encoding
>>
>> The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01 codepoint was 
>> for use
>> in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such 
>> experiments. This
>> document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning. Consequently 
>> this
>> document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01 codepoint for
>> experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept the risk that
>> PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be compatible 
>> with
>> their experiment."
>
> It would be dangerous for me to respond to this now - I'm too tired to 
> think straight. But my gut feeling is that the wording should lean 
> more towards "updates", and less towards appearing to encourage more 
> experimentation, which would run counter to interoperability - the 
> raison d'etre of a standards body.

I still don't understand why it is not possible to have alternative 
standards as long as only one of them can be applied in a single or 
federated PCN domain.


>
>
>
>
>> Two inline responses to Michael at the end
>
> One from me too...
>
>
>
>> Toby
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> > Toby Moncaster
>> > Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
>> > To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
>> > Cc: pcn@ietf.org
>> > Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>> >
>> > I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on this
>> > draft:
>> >
>> > 1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
>> >
>> > 2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively updates
>> > RFC5696
>> > and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on their
>> > own
>> > (which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an experiment!).
>> >
>> > 3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
>> >
>> > I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline 
>> which is
>> > that
>> > this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
>> >
>> > Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see it we 
>> are
>> > always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance I am not
>> > sure
>> > if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding being
>> > dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
>> >
>> > Of course we could always revive the option we discussed, where we
>> > obsolete
>> > RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft (which
>> > could
>> > then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
>> >
>> > Thoughts anyone?
>> >
>> > Toby
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
>> > > Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
>> > > To: Michael Menth
>> > > Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
>> > > Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>> > >
>> > > Michael,
>> > >
>> > > At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
>> > > >Hi all,
>> > > >
>> > > >to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a
>> > > >slight rewording:
>> > > >
>> > > >Handling of ECN traffic
>> > > >* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
>> > > >PCN-compatible DSCP
>> > > >     - no action needed
>> > > >* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
>> > > >PCN-compatible DSCP
>> > > >     - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible DSCP
>> > > > in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
>> > > >     - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and 
>> egress
>> > > > re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
>> > > >     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in 
>> the
>> > > > outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of ECN
>> > > > for this traffic within the PCN domain.
>> > >
>> > > We ought to recommend one:
>> > > #2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain extent.
>> > > THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs 
>> (e.g.
>> > > MPLS or Ethernet).
>> > > #1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same. So
>> > > #1 can be chucked.
>> > >
>> > > >* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
>> > > >     - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN 
>> field of
>> > > > PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
>> > >
>> > > Not recommended
>> > >
>> > > >     - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
>> > > > PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
>> > > > ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
>> > >
>> > > recommended
>> > >
>> > > >* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
>> > > >indicated to receive PCN marks
>> > > >     - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP but
>> > > > the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation
>> > > > according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn ECT(0)
>> > > > into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
>> > >
>> > > Good point.
>> > > This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >Another two questions
>> > > >* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is subject
>> > > >to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems 
>> to be
>> > > >a similar issue.
>> > >
>> > > Similar to what?
>>
>> What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the DSCP of an
>> arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet, should that 
>> change
>> be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to get rather
>> obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of suitable 
>> DSCPs for
>> PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an 
>> existing DSCP
>> providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an operator 
>> chooses
>> to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so. If I recall
>> right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains anyway...

Mentioning that would be helpful just to point the reader to that issue.

>>
>>
>> > >
>> > > >* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
>> > > >interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics? Have
>> > > >we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
>> > >
>> > > Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
>>
>> Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need to state 
>> this
>> anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-domain. IN
>> appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a marking 
>> behaviour for
>> use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues
>
> Given we are talking about e2e ECN support across a PCN domain, it 
> would do no harm to reinforce the idea that a DSCP cannot even be 
> considered PCN-compatible when it is outside a PCN domain - it has its 
> usual scheulding PHB, but its congestion marking behaviour is the ECN 
> default, not PCN.

I just felt that this should be stated explicitly.

Anything else is fine.

Best wishes,

     Michael


>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Bob
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >Best wishes,
>> > > >
>> > > >     Michael
>> > > >
>> > > >--
>> > > >Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>> > > >University of Tuebingen
>> > > >Faculty of Science
>> > > >Department of Computer Science
>> > > >Chair of Communication Networks
>> > > >Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>> > > >phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>> > > >fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>> > > >mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>> > > >http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>> > >
>> > > ________________________________________________________________
>> > > Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > PCN mailing list
>> > PCN@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


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Toby, Bob,

Am 15.04.2011 10:31, schrieb Toby Moncaster:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
>> Sent: 15 April 2011 04:14
>> To: Toby Moncaster
>> Cc: 'Toby Moncaster'; 'Michael Menth'; pcn@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>>
>> Toby,
>>
>> At 11:53 14/04/2011, Toby Moncaster wrote:
>>> I am trying to bash the ECN compatibility text into a usable appendix
>> for
>>> the document. This is what I have so far:
>>>
>>> "Appendix A.  Co-existence of ECN and PCN (informative)
>>>
>>>     The PCN encoding described in this document re-uses the bits of
>> the
>>>     ECN field in the IP header.  Consequently, this disables ECN
>> within
>>>     the PCN domain.
>> s/Consequently,/Without additional measures,/
>>
>>> Appendix B of [RFC5696] included advice on handling
>>>     ECN traffic within a PCN-domain.  This appendix clarifies that
>>>     advice.
>> s/clarifies/updates/
>>
>> [I assume you will have some sort of lead in sentence to the list here]
> Yes, but inspiration was proving elusive...
>
>
>>
>>>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control and not sharing a PCN-
>>>     compatible DSCP: This requires no action.
>>>
>>>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-
>> compatible
>>>     DSCP:
>> s/sharing a PCN-compatible DSCP/using a PCN-compatible DSCP on
>> arrival at the PCN ingress/
>>
>>> There are two options.
>>>
>>>        *  The ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and the egress re-
>>>           maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP.
>>>
>>>        *  The ingress tunnels the traffic, setting not-PCN in the
>> outer
>>>           header; note that this turns off ECN for this traffic within
>>>           the PCN domain.
>>>
>>>        The first option is recommended unless you are short of local
>>>        DSCPs.
>> Good.
>>
>> s/you are/the operator is/
>>
>>
>>>     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control:
>> s/being subjected to/to be subjected to PCN control rather than ECN
>> marking across the PCN domain/
>>
>>> There are two options.
>>>
>>>        *  The ingress places this traffic in a tunnel with a PCN-
>>>           compatible DSCP in the outer header.  The egress zeroes the
>>>           ECN-field before decapsulation.
>> s/the ECN-field/the outer ECN-field/
>>
>>
>>>        *  ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field
>> of
>>>           PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN.
>>>
>>>        The second option is not recommended.
>> No need to even mention it then, unless there's a compromise scenario
>> where the 1st option wouldn't be suitable.
>>
>> BTW, I don't see why the egress has to zero ECN, or indeed why this
>> disables e2e ECN, unless it means it zero's the inner (and if so why?).
> Surely the PCN-egress has to zero the ECN field before the packet is
> decapsulated? Otherwise the decapsulator will transfer the PCN marking from
> the PCN-domain onto the ECN packet...
>
>>
>>>     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver indicates
>> desire
>>>     to see PCN marks:
>>>
>>>        Schemes have been suggested where PCN marks may be leaked out
>> of
>>>        the PCN-domain and used by the end hosts to modify realtime
>> data
>>>        rates.
>> s/used by the end hosts to modify realtime data rates./
>>    /used by adaptive codecs in the end hosts to modify realtime data
>> rates./
>>
>>> Currently all such schemes are experimental and the
>>>        following is for guidance only.
>>>
>>>        The ingress needs to tunnel the traffic using [RFC6040].  The
>> PCN-
>>>        egress should not zero the ECN field,
>> Don't agree. ECN should never leak into PCN, but PCN might be OK to
>> leak to ECN receiver.
> I'm not allowing ECN to leak into PCN. I am (in limited circumstances)
> allowing the PCN-domain to over-write the ECN information and hence leak PCN
> information to the receiver.
>
>> Reasoning: admission of a flow should only depend on PCN marking
>> within the PCN region. It shouldn't depend on ECN marking from queues
>> outside the PCN region, which will not have been configured to give
>> good signals at the right load levels.
> Oh, I think I see your point. RFC6040 tunnels will set the ECN of the outer
> header to whatever is in the inner header. BUT you are forgetting that the
> default behaviour of the PCN-ingress is to clear whatever is in the outer
> header and set it to 10 (if the traffic is PCN) or 00 (if the traffic is
> not-PCN)

Mentioning that would be helpful. Also we need to remember that but 
often forget about it and then we wonder about the text ...

Regards,

     Michael

>> The reverse argument seems less likely to apply to leaking PCN to
>> receiver, because any decent level of PCN will usefully trigger a
>> lower rate, thus potentially avoiding the need to block admissions.
>>
>>> and the tunnel egress should
>>>        use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-marking).
>> There are no modes for an RFC6040 egress. Modes are only for the
>> ingress.
> OK, noted. I did know that really, I was being careless.
>
>> The important point is not what the tunnel egress does (assuming the
>> arrangement in the Fig below), but that the PCN egress doesn't zero
>> the outer ECN field.
> Indeed...
>
>>> Note that
>>>        this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not compatible with
>> the
>>>        experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].
>> s/this/PCN marking on interior nodes/
>>
>>
>>>     In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be used unless
>>>     specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of tunneling
>>>     and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress nodes.  That
>> is,
>>>     any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-domain as
>>>     illustrated in the following figure:
>>>
>>>
>>>                  ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>>>                 .   ,--------.                   ,--------.    .
>>>                .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-  |_   .
>>>                .  / | ingress |                   | egress | \  .
>>>                 .|  '---------'                   '--------'  |.
>>>                  | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .|
>>>             ,--------.                                     ,--------.
>>>       _____| Tunnel  |                                     | Tunnel
>> |____
>>>            | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - | Egress |
>>>            '---------'                                     '--------'
>>>
>>>
>>>               Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN actions
>>> "
>> nice ASCII art.
> Thanks :)
>
>>
>>> I hope this captures all the key elements from the discussion.
>>>
>>> I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards to
>> updating
>>> RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be dependent on it
>> as
>>> well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a standalone
>>> section:
>>>
>>> "Section N. Effect on baseline encoding
>>>
>>> The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01 codepoint was
>> for use
>>> in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such experiments.
>> This
>>> document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning. Consequently
>> this
>>> document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01 codepoint for
>>> experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept the risk
>> that
>>> PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be compatible
>> with
>>> their experiment."
>> It would be dangerous for me to respond to this now - I'm too tired
>> to think straight. But my gut feeling is that the wording should lean
>> more towards "updates", and less towards appearing to encourage more
>> experimentation, which would run counter to interoperability - the
>> raison d'etre of a standards body.
> OK, I can probably highlight that we are not recommending people start
> experiments, but if they are already using the EXP codepoint for anything
> else they need to be aware of this clash...
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Two inline responses to Michael at the end
>> One from me too...
>>
>>
>>
>>> Toby
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of
>>>> Toby Moncaster
>>>> Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
>>>> To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
>>>> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on this
>>>> draft:
>>>>
>>>> 1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
>>>>
>>>> 2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively updates
>>>> RFC5696
>>>> and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on
>> their
>>>> own
>>>> (which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an experiment!).
>>>>
>>>> 3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
>>>>
>>>> I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline
>> which is
>>>> that
>>>> this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
>>>>
>>>> Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see it we
>> are
>>>> always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance I am
>> not
>>>> sure
>>>> if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding being
>>>> dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
>>>>
>>>> Of course we could always revive the option we discussed, where we
>>>> obsolete
>>>> RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft
>> (which
>>>> could
>>>> then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts anyone?
>>>>
>>>> Toby
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
>>>>> Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
>>>>> To: Michael Menth
>>>>> Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a
>>>>>> slight rewording:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Handling of ECN traffic
>>>>>> * ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
>>>>>> PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>>>>      - no action needed
>>>>>> * ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
>>>>>> PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible
>> DSCP
>>>>>> in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and
>> egress
>>>>>> re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in
>> the
>>>>>> outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of
>> ECN
>>>>>> for this traffic within the PCN domain.
>>>>> We ought to recommend one:
>>>>> #2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain
>> extent.
>>>>> THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs
>> (e.g.
>>>>> MPLS or Ethernet).
>>>>> #1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same.
>> So
>>>>> #1 can be chucked.
>>>>>
>>>>>> * ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
>>>>>>      - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN
>> field of
>>>>>> PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
>>>>> Not recommended
>>>>>
>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
>>>>>> PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
>>>>>> ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
>>>>> recommended
>>>>>
>>>>>> * ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
>>>>>> indicated to receive PCN marks
>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
>> but
>>>>>> the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation
>>>>>> according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn
>> ECT(0)
>>>>>> into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
>>>>> Good point.
>>>>> This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Another two questions
>>>>>> * Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is
>> subject
>>>>>> to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems
>> to be
>>>>>> a similar issue.
>>>>> Similar to what?
>>> What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the DSCP of an
>>> arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet, should that
>> change
>>> be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to get rather
>>> obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of suitable
>> DSCPs for
>>> PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an existing
>> DSCP
>>> providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an operator
>> chooses
>>> to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so. If I
>> recall
>>> right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains anyway...
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> * How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>>>> interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics?
>> Have
>>>>>> we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
>>>>> Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
>>> Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need to state
>> this
>>> anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-domain. IN
>>> appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a marking
>> behaviour for
>>> use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues
>> Given we are talking about e2e ECN support across a PCN domain, it
>> would do no harm to reinforce the idea that a DSCP cannot even be
>> considered PCN-compatible when it is outside a PCN domain - it has
>> its usual scheulding PHB, but its congestion marking behaviour is the
>> ECN default, not PCN.
> Would adding the following (in a suitable place) suffice?:
>
> "PCN is in effect a congestion marking behaviour for use with realtime
> traffic in a controlled domain. As such, within the PCN-domain, PCN marking
> replaces ECN marking for any PCN-enabled DSCPs. Outside the PCN-domain, ECN
> remains the default behaviour for all DSCPs."
>
> Toby
>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>>>>>> University of Tuebingen
>>>>>> Faculty of Science
>>>>>> Department of Computer Science
>>>>>> Chair of Communication Networks
>>>>>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>>>>>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>>>>>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>>>>>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>>>>>> http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>>>>> ________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>> ________________________________________________________________
>> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


From menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Apr 15 04:19:55 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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Toby, Bob,

see inline

Am 14.04.2011 12:53, schrieb Toby Moncaster:
> I am trying to bash the ECN compatibility text into a usable appendix for
> the document. This is what I have so far:
>
> "Appendix A.  Co-existence of ECN and PCN (informative)
>
>     The PCN encoding described in this document re-uses the bits of the
>     ECN field in the IP header.  Consequently, this disables ECN within
>     the PCN domain.  Appendix B of [RFC5696] included advice on handling
>     ECN traffic within a PCN-domain.  This appendix clarifies that
>     advice.
>
>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control and not sharing a PCN-
>     compatible DSCP: This requires no action.
>
>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-compatible
>     DSCP: There are two options.
>
>        *  The ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and the egress re-
>           maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP.
>
>        *  The ingress tunnels the traffic, setting not-PCN in the outer
>           header; note that this turns off ECN for this traffic within
>           the PCN domain.
>
>        The first option is recommended unless you are short of local
>        DSCPs.

What's wrong with this option?
     - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible DSCP in 
the outer header (any tunnel may be used); this does not turn off ECN 
within the PCN domain.

Regards,

     Michael

>     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control:  There are two options.
>
>        *  The ingress places this traffic in a tunnel with a PCN-
>           compatible DSCP in the outer header.  The egress zeroes the
>           ECN-field before decapsulation.
>
>        *  ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field of
>           PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN.
>
>        The second option is not recommended.
>
>     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver indicates desire
>     to see PCN marks:
>
>        Schemes have been suggested where PCN marks may be leaked out of
>        the PCN-domain and used by the end hosts to modify realtime data
>        rates.  Currently all such schemes are experimental and the
>        following is for guidance only.
>
>        The ingress needs to tunnel the traffic using [RFC6040].  The PCN-
>        egress should not zero the ECN field, and the tunnel egress should
>        use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-marking).  Note that
>        this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not compatible with the
>        experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].
>
>     In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be used unless
>     specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of tunneling
>     and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress nodes.  That is,
>     any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-domain as
>     illustrated in the following figure:
>
>
>                  ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>                 .   ,--------.                   ,--------.    .
>                .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-  |_   .
>                .  / | ingress |                   | egress | \  .
>                 .|  '---------'                   '--------'  |.
>                  | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .|
>             ,--------.                                     ,--------.
>       _____| Tunnel  |                                     | Tunnel |____
>            | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - | Egress |
>            '---------'                                     '--------'
>
>
>               Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN actions
> "
>
>
> I hope this captures all the key elements from the discussion.
>
> I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards to updating
> RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be dependent on it as
> well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a standalone
> section:
>
> "Section N. Effect on baseline encoding
>
> The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01 codepoint was for use
> in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such experiments. This
> document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning. Consequently this
> document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01 codepoint for
> experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept the risk that
> PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be compatible with
> their experiment."
>
>
>
> Two inline responses to Michael at the end
>
>
> Toby
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Toby Moncaster
>> Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
>> To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
>> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>>
>> I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on this
>> draft:
>>
>> 1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
>>
>> 2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively updates
>> RFC5696
>> and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on their
>> own
>> (which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an experiment!).
>>
>> 3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
>>
>> I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline which is
>> that
>> this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
>>
>> Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see it we are
>> always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance I am not
>> sure
>> if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding being
>> dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
>>
>> Of course we could always revive the option we discussed, where we
>> obsolete
>> RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft (which
>> could
>> then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
>>
>> Thoughts anyone?
>>
>> Toby
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
>>> Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
>>> To: Michael Menth
>>> Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a
>>>> slight rewording:
>>>>
>>>> Handling of ECN traffic
>>>> * ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
>>>> PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>>      - no action needed
>>>> * ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
>>>> PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>> in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
>>>>      - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and egress
>>>> re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in the
>>>> outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of ECN
>>>> for this traffic within the PCN domain.
>>> We ought to recommend one:
>>> #2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain extent.
>>> THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs (e.g.
>>> MPLS or Ethernet).
>>> #1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same. So
>>> #1 can be chucked.
>>>
>>>> * ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
>>>>      - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field of
>>>> PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
>>> Not recommended
>>>
>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
>>>> PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
>>>> ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
>>> recommended
>>>
>>>> * ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
>>>> indicated to receive PCN marks
>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP but
>>>> the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation
>>>> according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn ECT(0)
>>>> into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
>>> Good point.
>>> This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Another two questions
>>>> * Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is subject
>>>> to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems to be
>>>> a similar issue.
>>> Similar to what?
> What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the DSCP of an
> arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet, should that change
> be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to get rather
> obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of suitable DSCPs for
> PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an existing DSCP
> providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an operator chooses
> to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so. If I recall
> right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains anyway...
>
>
>>>> * How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>> interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics? Have
>>>> we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
>>> Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
> Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need to state this
> anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-domain. IN
> appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a marking behaviour for
> use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues
>
>
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>>      Michael
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>>>> University of Tuebingen
>>>> Faculty of Science
>>>> Department of Computer Science
>>>> Chair of Communication Networks
>>>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>>>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>>>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>>>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>>>> http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>>> ________________________________________________________________
>>> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
>> _______________________________________________
>> PCN mailing list
>> PCN@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Fri Apr 15 04:24:57 2011
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: "'Michael Menth'" <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
References: <20110405121501.17256.4322.idtracker@localhost><2456373BE0C048BC81789AC0BD960800@dynamic.ewi.utwente.nl><9510D26531EF184D9017DF24659BB87F3290213FC5@EMV65-UKRD.domain1.systemhost.net><BB9144067FE94348BDA0CA92D84F06B2@dynamic.ewi.utwente.nl><2D5FD60CDAAD42C997B4D22F9F0AD940@dynamic.ewi.utwente.nl><9510D26531EF184D9017DF24659BB87F329194847C@EMV65-UKRD.domain1.systemhost.net><C08D55F7EC4F45BA9421441414EC1E3D@dynamic.ewi.utwente.nl><9510D26531EF184D9017DF24659BB87F32919484EF@EMV65-UKRD.domain1.systemhost.net><001d01cbfa97$71cfa370$556eea50$@com>	<9510D26531EF184D9017DF24659BB87F3291948537@EMV65-UKRD.domain1.systemhost.net>	<9510D26531EF184D9017DF24659BB87F3291948551@EMV65-UKRD.domain1.systemhost.net> <1113BCA86B3D46FBB66B61703A74E7B5@dynamic.ewi.utwente.nl> <4DA80737.2070000@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:24:32 +0200
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Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should	draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum	rate value carried by signaling protocol?
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Hi Michael

Good point!

The sentence to be added will then become:

"The number format and the rate units used by the signalling protocol will
limit the maximum rate that PCN can use. 
If signalling space is tight it might be reasonable to impose a limit, 
but any such limit may impose unnecessary constraints in future."


Best regards,
Georgios
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de] 
> Sent: vrijdag 15 april 2011 10:52
> To: Georgios Karagiannis
> Cc: philip.eardley@bt.com; toby@moncaster.com; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum 
> rate value carried by signaling protocol?
> 
> Hi Georgios,
> 
> Am 14.04.2011 13:46, schrieb Georgios Karagiannis:
> > Hi all
> >
> > The below sentence satisfies only partially my concerns! 
> However, if 
> > there are no objections then I will use the below sentence in the 
> > signaling requirements draft!
> >
> > "The rate value carried by
> 
> you probably mean: the number format ant the rate units used by
> 
> Regards,
> 
>      Michael
> 
> > the signalling protocol will limit the maximum rate that 
> PCN can use. 
> > If signalling space is tight it might be reasonable to 
> impose a limit, 
> > but any such limit may impose unnecessary constraints in future."
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> >> Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 13:40
> >> To: philip.eardley@bt.com; toby@moncaster.com; 
> >> karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> >> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> >> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum rate 
> >> value carried by signaling protocol?
> >>
> >> wfm = works for me
> >> Sorry for the abbreviated typing!
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] 
> On Behalf Of 
> >> philip.eardley@bt.com
> >> Sent: 14 April 2011 12:32
> >> To: toby@moncaster.com; karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> >> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum rate 
> >> value carried by signaling protocol?
> >>
> >> wfm
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Toby Moncaster [mailto:toby@moncaster.com]
> >> Sent: 14 April 2011 12:31
> >> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> >> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> >> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which maximum rate 
> >> value carried by signaling protocol?
> >>
> >> There seem to be two competing things - firstly, we need 
> to give some 
> >> indication of the scale of number that needs to be 
> signalled (e.g. a 
> >> short integer is probably not enough!). BUT we mustn't impose an 
> >> unnecessary limit on the maximum since this puts a limit on future 
> >> growth (just look at IPv4 addressing).
> >>
> >> The usual cop-out in such cases is not to recommend 
> anything but to 
> >> have a sentence setting out the discussion. Something like
> >>
> >> "The rate value carried by the signalling protocol will limit the 
> >> maximum rate that PCN can use. If signalling space is 
> tight it might 
> >> be reasonable to impose a limit, but any such limit may impose 
> >> unnecessary constraints in future"
> >>
> >> Toby
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> >> Behalf Of
> >>> philip.eardley@bt.com
> >>> Sent: 14 April 2011 12:01
> >>> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling- 
> >>> requirements recommend which maximum rate value carried by
> >> signaling
> >>> protocol?
> >>>
> >>> Well, if you include your sentence that means you don't agree!
> >>>
> >>> As i said, i don't think this is a good idea.
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Georgios Karagiannis [mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl]
> >>> Sent: 14 April 2011 11:59
> >>> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; pcn@ietf.org
> >>> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should draft-ietf-pcn-signaling- 
> >>> requirements recommend which maximum rate value carried by
> >> signaling
> >>> protocol?
> >>>
> >>> Hi Phil
> >>>
> >>> Agree, but maybe the following sentence could solve the problem!
> >>>
> >>> "The signaling protocol SHOULD be able to carry a rate
> >> value that can
> >>> at least be fitted in a 32 bit container/field, when 
> using the IEEE 
> >>> floating point number encoding."
> >>>
> >>> The above is based on the fact that a token bucket rate
> >> carried in a
> >>> RSVP SENDER_TSPEC Object (see RFC2210), uses also such a 
> >>> container/field.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>> Georgios
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> >>>> Sent: donderdag 14 april 2011 12:29
> >>>> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> >>>> Subject: RE: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> >>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which
> >> maximum rate
> >>>> value carried by signaling protocol?
> >>>>
> >>>> I dont think this belongs in this document. Seems it can
> >> be left to
> >>>> the actual signalling protocol and configuration in the actual 
> >>>> network it's operating in. Anyway, if we specify a particular 
> >>>> maximum we also need to specify format and that requires
> >> some work
> >>>> on what ways are currently considered best.
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org]
> >> On Behalf
> >>>> Of Georgios Karagiannis
> >>>> Sent: 13 April 2011 17:28
> >>>> To: pcn@ietf.org
> >>>> Subject: [PCN] Open Issue 1: should 
> >>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements recommend which
> >> maximum rate
> >>>> value carried by signaling protocol?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi all
> >>>>
> >>>> > From the WGLC discussions regarding
> >>>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> >>>> I identified two open issues:
> >>>>
> >>>> This email contains the first open issue:
> >>>>
> >>>> Issue_1: It is proposed that
> >>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend
> >> which maximum
> >>>> rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol.
> >>>>
> >>>> This will mean that the PCN WG will recommend to the signaling 
> >>>> protocol designers to use a container/field that is able 
> to carry 
> >>>> this maximum rate value (in octets/s).
> >>>>
> >>>> Question: Do you agree/disagree with the fact that 
> >>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements should recommend
> >> which maximum
> >>>> rate value should be carried by a signaling protocol?
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>> Georgios
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> >>>> Behalf Of
> >>>>> Georgios Karagiannis
> >>>>> Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:56
> >>>>> To: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] Perhaps some additions 
> >>>>> requiredfordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Phil
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You are right about the encoding. Therefore, we might
> >> also need to
> >>>>> define the way of how this value is encoded.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In RFC 2210 all the rate values are encoded using: 32-bit IEEE 
> >>>>> floating point number.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am not sure if it is good lo leave this decision to other 
> >>>>> desigbn teams than the PCN WG.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The values of these rates are affecting the accuracy of the
> >>>> provided
> >>>>> PCN solutions, in particular when they get another
> >> value than they
> >>>>> should.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>> Georgios
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> >>>>>> Sent: donderdag 7 april 2011 11:34
> >>>>>> To: karagian@cs.utwente.nl; pcn@ietf.org
> >>>>>> Subject: RE: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required 
> >>>>>> fordraft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I dont think this is needed in either signalling
> >> reqts or edge
> >>>>>> behaviour docs. I think this would be up to the actual 
> signalling 
> >>>>>> protocol to define, or perhaps the
> >> configuration in a
> >>>>>> particular PCN-domain.
> >>>>>> Note also that defining a field length doesn't define the
> >>>>> max value,
> >>>>>> as this depends on the encoding [for instance, 1 byte
> >> might be
> >>>>>> an exponent]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> >>>>> Behalf Of
> >>>>>> Georgios Karagiannis
> >>>>>> Sent: 07 April 2011 10:20
> >>>>>> To: pcn@ietf.org
> >>>>>> Subject: [PCN] Perhaps some additions required for 
> >>>>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi all
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Looking into the description of the edge behaviour drafts
> >>>>> and what we
> >>>>>> currently have in the 03 version of the signaling
> >>>>> requirements draft,
> >>>>>> I see that some information associated with the
> >>>> information that a
> >>>>>> signaling protocol should carry is missing. In particular,
> >>>>> we are not
> >>>>>> specifying what is the maximum value of the rates that a
> >>>> signaling
> >>>>>> protocol should be able to carry. This is important
> >> in order to
> >>>>>> specify what will be maximum length of the field that
> >>>>> carries such a
> >>>>>> maximum rate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In particular we need to have these maximum values for the
> >>>>> following
> >>>>>> rates:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>     o the rate of not-marked PCN-traffic (NM-rate) in
> >>>> octets/second,
> >>>>>>     o rate of PCN-marked traffic in octets/second,
> >>>>>>     o the rate of threshold-marked PCN traffic (ThM-rate) in
> >>>>>>       octets/second,
> >>>>>>     o rate of excess-traffic-marked traffic (ETM-rate) in 
> >>>>>> octets/second,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We could use a field of 32 bits long =>  Maximum rate
> >>>> value = 2^32 =
> >>>>>> 4294967296 octets/s)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Question 1: Is this maximum rate value acceptable?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Question 2: Is it okay to include this maximum rate
> >> value in the
> >>>>>> signaling requirements draft, or should we do this in
> >> the edge
> >>>>>> behaviour drafts?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>>> Georgios
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org]
> >>>>> On Behalf
> >>>>>>> Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> >>>>>>> Sent: dinsdag 5 april 2011 14:15
> >>>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> >>>>>>> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> >>>>>>> Subject: [PCN] I-D
> >>>>>> Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> >>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> >>>>> Internet-Drafts
> >>>>>>> directories.
> >>>>>>> This draft is a work item of the Congestion and
> >> Pre-Congestion
> >>>>>>> Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-)
> >>>>>>> Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> >>>>>>> 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> >>>>>>> 	Filename        :
> >>>> draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.txt
> >>>>>>> 	Pages           : 7
> >>>>>>> 	Date            : 2011-04-05
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for
> >>>>> protecting quality
> >>>>>>> of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv
> >>>>> domain. The
> >>>>>>> overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559.
> >> This memo
> >>>>>>> describes the requirements for the signaling applied
> >>>>> within the PCN
> >>>>>>> domain: (1) PCN-feedback-information is carried from the
> >>>>>>> PCN-egress- node to the decision point;(2) the decision
> >>>> point may
> >>>>>>> ask the PCN- ingress-node to measure, and report back,
> >>>>> the rate of
> >>>>>>> PCN-traffic between this pair of PCN-boundary-nodes.
> >>>> The decision
> >>>>>>> point may be either collocated with the
> >> PCN-ingress-node or a
> >>>>>>> centralized node (in the latter case, (2) is not required).
> >>>>>>> The signaling requirements pertain in particular to two edge
> >>>>> behaviours,
> >>>>>>> "controlled load (CL)"
> >>>>>>> and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-
> >>> 08],
> >>>>>>> [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> >>>>>>>
> >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-r
> >>>>>> equirements-03.txt
> >>>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> >>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant
> >>>> mail reader
> >>>>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII
> >>>> version of the
> >>>>>>> Internet-Draft.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> PCN mailing list
> >>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> PCN mailing list
> >>>>> PCN@ietf.org
> >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> PCN mailing list
> >>>> PCN@ietf.org
> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> PCN mailing list
> >>> PCN@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> PCN mailing list
> >> PCN@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 
> --
> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> University of Tuebingen
> Faculty of Science
> Department of Computer Science
> Chair of Communication Networks
> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> 



From toby@moncaster.com  Fri Apr 15 04:43:57 2011
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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
To: "'Michael Menth'" <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de]
> Sent: 15 April 2011 12:20
> To: Toby Moncaster
> Cc: 'Bob Briscoe'; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> 
> Toby, Bob,
> 
> see inline
> 
> Am 14.04.2011 12:53, schrieb Toby Moncaster:
> > I am trying to bash the ECN compatibility text into a usable appendix
> for
> > the document. This is what I have so far:
> >
> > "Appendix A.  Co-existence of ECN and PCN (informative)
> >
> >     The PCN encoding described in this document re-uses the bits of
> the
> >     ECN field in the IP header.  Consequently, this disables ECN
> within
> >     the PCN domain.  Appendix B of [RFC5696] included advice on
> handling
> >     ECN traffic within a PCN-domain.  This appendix clarifies that
> >     advice.
> >
> >     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control and not sharing a PCN-
> >     compatible DSCP: This requires no action.
> >
> >     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-
> compatible
> >     DSCP: There are two options.
> >
> >        *  The ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and the egress
> re-
> >           maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP.
> >
> >        *  The ingress tunnels the traffic, setting not-PCN in the
> outer
> >           header; note that this turns off ECN for this traffic
> within
> >           the PCN domain.
> >
> >        The first option is recommended unless you are short of local
> >        DSCPs.
> 
> What's wrong with this option?
>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible DSCP in
> the outer header (any tunnel may be used); this does not turn off ECN
> within the PCN domain.

The problem is that it might change the PHB scheduling for those packets. We
want to avoid that if at all possible. Obviously an operator could choose to
use that approach, but we don't want to recommend things that have actual
negative impact.

Toby

> 
> Regards,
> 
>      Michael
> 
> >     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control:  There are two
> options.
> >
> >        *  The ingress places this traffic in a tunnel with a PCN-
> >           compatible DSCP in the outer header.  The egress zeroes the
> >           ECN-field before decapsulation.
> >
> >        *  ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field
> of
> >           PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN.
> >
> >        The second option is not recommended.
> >
> >     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver indicates
> desire
> >     to see PCN marks:
> >
> >        Schemes have been suggested where PCN marks may be leaked out
> of
> >        the PCN-domain and used by the end hosts to modify realtime
> data
> >        rates.  Currently all such schemes are experimental and the
> >        following is for guidance only.
> >
> >        The ingress needs to tunnel the traffic using [RFC6040].  The
> PCN-
> >        egress should not zero the ECN field, and the tunnel egress
> should
> >        use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-marking).  Note
> that
> >        this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not compatible with
> the
> >        experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].
> >
> >     In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be used unless
> >     specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of tunneling
> >     and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress nodes.  That
> is,
> >     any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-domain as
> >     illustrated in the following figure:
> >
> >
> >                  ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> >                 .   ,--------.                   ,--------.    .
> >                .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-  |_   .
> >                .  / | ingress |                   | egress | \  .
> >                 .|  '---------'                   '--------'  |.
> >                  | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .|
> >             ,--------.                                     ,--------.
> >       _____| Tunnel  |                                     | Tunnel
> |____
> >            | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - | Egress |
> >            '---------'                                     '--------'
> >
> >
> >               Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN actions
> > "
> >
> >
> > I hope this captures all the key elements from the discussion.
> >
> > I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards to
> updating
> > RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be dependent on it
> as
> > well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a standalone
> > section:
> >
> > "Section N. Effect on baseline encoding
> >
> > The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01 codepoint was
> for use
> > in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such
> experiments. This
> > document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning. Consequently
> this
> > document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01 codepoint
> for
> > experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept the risk
> that
> > PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be compatible
> with
> > their experiment."
> >
> >
> >
> > Two inline responses to Michael at the end
> >
> >
> > Toby
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of
> >> Toby Moncaster
> >> Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
> >> To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
> >> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> >>
> >> I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on this
> >> draft:
> >>
> >> 1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
> >>
> >> 2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively updates
> >> RFC5696
> >> and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on their
> >> own
> >> (which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an experiment!).
> >>
> >> 3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
> >>
> >> I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline which
> is
> >> that
> >> this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
> >>
> >> Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see it we
> are
> >> always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance I am
> not
> >> sure
> >> if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding being
> >> dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
> >>
> >> Of course we could always revive the option we discussed, where we
> >> obsolete
> >> RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft
> (which
> >> could
> >> then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
> >>
> >> Thoughts anyone?
> >>
> >> Toby
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> >>> Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
> >>> To: Michael Menth
> >>> Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> >>>
> >>> Michael,
> >>>
> >>> At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
> >>>> Hi all,
> >>>>
> >>>> to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a
> >>>> slight rewording:
> >>>>
> >>>> Handling of ECN traffic
> >>>> * ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
> >>>> PCN-compatible DSCP
> >>>>      - no action needed
> >>>> * ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
> >>>> PCN-compatible DSCP
> >>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible
> DSCP
> >>>> in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
> >>>>      - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and
> egress
> >>>> re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
> >>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in
> the
> >>>> outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of ECN
> >>>> for this traffic within the PCN domain.
> >>> We ought to recommend one:
> >>> #2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain extent.
> >>> THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs
> (e.g.
> >>> MPLS or Ethernet).
> >>> #1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same.
> So
> >>> #1 can be chucked.
> >>>
> >>>> * ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
> >>>>      - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field
> of
> >>>> PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
> >>> Not recommended
> >>>
> >>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
> >>>> PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
> >>>> ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
> >>> recommended
> >>>
> >>>> * ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
> >>>> indicated to receive PCN marks
> >>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP but
> >>>> the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation
> >>>> according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn ECT(0)
> >>>> into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
> >>> Good point.
> >>> This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Another two questions
> >>>> * Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is subject
> >>>> to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems to
> be
> >>>> a similar issue.
> >>> Similar to what?
> > What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the DSCP of
> an
> > arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet, should that
> change
> > be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to get rather
> > obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of suitable
> DSCPs for
> > PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an
> existing DSCP
> > providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an operator
> chooses
> > to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so. If I
> recall
> > right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains anyway...
> >
> >
> >>>> * How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
> >>>> interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics? Have
> >>>> we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
> >>> Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
> > Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need to state
> this
> > anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-domain.
> IN
> > appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a marking
> behaviour for
> > use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues
> >
> >
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Best wishes,
> >>>>
> >>>>      Michael
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> >>>> University of Tuebingen
> >>>> Faculty of Science
> >>>> Department of Computer Science
> >>>> Chair of Communication Networks
> >>>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> >>>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> >>>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> >>>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> >>>> http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> >>> ________________________________________________________________
> >>> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> PCN mailing list
> >> PCN@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


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Toby, Michael,

1/ We need to have a clearer think about the implications of putting 
"Updates 5696" in the header block. We ought to start another thread for that.

2/ e2e ECN appendix
Now that I'm awake, I've realised the wording of the headings for the 
four options we are discussing needs to be completely reframed.

End nodes don't ask for PCN control, they ask for admission control. 
An operator chooses what mechanism to use for admission control over 
their segment of the path, and PCN is just one possible mechanism 
they might choose.

At the outset, we need to list the two main ways that end-nodes tell 
the network that they need admission control, which in turn makes the 
PCN-ingress remark their traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP:

A) flow signalling associates a filterspec with a need for admission 
control (e.g. thru RSVP or some equivalent message down from a SIP 
server to the ingress), and the PCN ingress remarks traffic matching 
that filterspec to a PCN-compatible DSCP, as its chosen admission 
control mechanism.

B) Traffic arrives with a DSCP that implies it requires admission 
control such as VOICE-ADMIT [RFC5865] or Interactive Real-Time, 
Broadcast TV when used for video on demand, and Multimedia 
Conferencing [RFC4594, RFC5865].

We need to define two phrases, such as:
* "Traffic that requires admission control" as traffic that uses 
either method A or B.
* "Traffic that does not require admission control" as traffic that 
uses neither of methods A or B.

THen inline below I suggest corrected text for each of the four headings.

3/ e2e ECN appendix
Otherwise, I think we've converged on the text within each heading. I 
have inserted comments inline to confirm the necessary wordsmithing...


At 11:04 15/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
>Toby, Bob,
>
>Am 15.04.2011 10:31, schrieb Toby Moncaster:
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
>>>Sent: 15 April 2011 04:14
>>>To: Toby Moncaster
>>>Cc: 'Toby Moncaster'; 'Michael Menth'; pcn@ietf.org
>>>Subject: RE: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>>>
>>>Toby,
>>>
>>>At 11:53 14/04/2011, Toby Moncaster wrote:
>>>>I am trying to bash the ECN compatibility text into a usable appendix
>>>for
>>>>the document. This is what I have so far:
>>>>
>>>>"Appendix A.  Co-existence of ECN and PCN (informative)
>>>>
>>>>     The PCN encoding described in this document re-uses the bits of
>>>the
>>>>     ECN field in the IP header.  Consequently, this disables ECN
>>>within
>>>>     the PCN domain.
>>>s/Consequently,/Without additional measures,/
>>>
>>>>Appendix B of [RFC5696] included advice on handling
>>>>     ECN traffic within a PCN-domain.  This appendix clarifies that
>>>>     advice.
>>>s/clarifies/updates/
>>>
>>>[I assume you will have some sort of lead in sentence to the list here]
>>Yes, but inspiration was proving elusive...

"There are a four possible cases for how e2e ECN traffic may wish to 
be treated while crossing a PCN domain:"




>>>>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control and not sharing a PCN-
>>>>     compatible DSCP: This requires no action.

There is no such thing as a PCN-compatible DSCP for traffic arriving 
at a PCN ingress (a PCN-compatible DSCP is only defined within a PCN region).

We should head this item
"ECN capable traffic that does not require admission control and does 
not carry a DSCP that the PCN-ingress is using for PCN-capable traffic."


>>>>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-
>>>compatible
>>>>     DSCP:
>>>s/sharing a PCN-compatible DSCP/using a PCN-compatible DSCP on
>>>arrival at the PCN ingress/

On second thoughts, we should head this item
"ECN capable traffic that does not require admission control but 
carries a DSCP that the PCN-ingress is using for PCN-capable traffic."

HOWEVER, I don't think this case is possible. If traffic arrives with 
a DSCP that would be used for PCN, it is signalling that it requires 
admission control [RFC5865].


>>>>There are two options.
>>>>
>>>>        *  The ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and the egress re-
>>>>           maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP.

s/local DSCP/local DSCP with the same scheduling PHB as the original DSCP/


>>>>        *  The ingress tunnels the traffic, setting not-PCN in the
>>>outer
>>>>           header; note that this turns off ECN for this traffic within
>>>>           the PCN domain.
>>>>
>>>>        The first option is recommended unless you are short of local
>>>>        DSCPs.
>>>Good.
>>>
>>>s/you are/the operator is/
>>>
>>>
>>>>     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control:
>>>s/being subjected to/to be subjected to PCN control rather than ECN
>>>marking across the PCN domain/

We should head this item
"Traffic that requires admission control."


>>>>There are two options.
>>>>
>>>>        *  The ingress places this traffic in a tunnel with a PCN-
>>>>           compatible DSCP in the outer header.  The egress zeroes the
>>>>           ECN-field before decapsulation.
>>>s/the ECN-field/the outer ECN-field/
>>>
>>>
>>>>        *  ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN field
>>>of
>>>>           PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN.

s/ingress/PCN ingress/
s/egress/PCN egress/
delete/which disables end-to-end ECN/


>>>>        The second option is not recommended.

a/unless tunnelling is not possible for some reason./

>>>No need to even mention it then, unless there's a compromise scenario
>>>where the 1st option wouldn't be suitable.
>>>
>>>BTW, I don't see why the egress has to zero ECN, or indeed why this
>>>disables e2e ECN, unless it means it zero's the inner (and if so why?).
>>Surely the PCN-egress has to zero the ECN field before the packet is
>>decapsulated? Otherwise the decapsulator will transfer the PCN marking from
>>the PCN-domain onto the ECN packet...

You're right - the PCN egress needs to zero the outer ECN.

But this doesn't disable e2e ECN, because it's still enabled in the 
inner, which any tunnel egress forwards unchanged, if the outer is Not-ECN.



>>>>     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver indicates
>>>desire
>>>>     to see PCN marks:

We should head this item
"Traffic that requires admission control, where the e2e transport 
somehow indicates it wants to see PCN marks."



>>>>        Schemes have been suggested where PCN marks may be leaked out
>>>of
>>>>        the PCN-domain and used by the end hosts to modify realtime
>>>data
>>>>        rates.
>>>s/used by the end hosts to modify realtime data rates./
>>>    /used by adaptive codecs in the end hosts to modify realtime data
>>>rates./
>>>
>>>>Currently all such schemes are experimental and the
>>>>        following is for guidance only.
>>>>
>>>>        The ingress needs to tunnel the traffic using [RFC6040].

insert/The PCN-ingress will by default set the outer ECN field to 
Not-marked and then/

Hope this all helps.


Bob

>>>>The
>>>PCN-
>>>>        egress should not zero the ECN field,
>>>Don't agree. ECN should never leak into PCN, but PCN might be OK to
>>>leak to ECN receiver.
>>I'm not allowing ECN to leak into PCN. I am (in limited circumstances)
>>allowing the PCN-domain to over-write the ECN information and hence leak PCN
>>information to the receiver.
>>
>>>Reasoning: admission of a flow should only depend on PCN marking
>>>within the PCN region. It shouldn't depend on ECN marking from queues
>>>outside the PCN region, which will not have been configured to give
>>>good signals at the right load levels.
>>Oh, I think I see your point. RFC6040 tunnels will set the ECN of the outer
>>header to whatever is in the inner header. BUT you are forgetting that the
>>default behaviour of the PCN-ingress is to clear whatever is in the outer
>>header and set it to 10 (if the traffic is PCN) or 00 (if the traffic is
>>not-PCN)
>
>Mentioning that would be helpful. Also we need to remember that but 
>often forget about it and then we wonder about the text ...
>
>Regards,
>
>     Michael
>
>>>The reverse argument seems less likely to apply to leaking PCN to
>>>receiver, because any decent level of PCN will usefully trigger a
>>>lower rate, thus potentially avoiding the need to block admissions.
>>>
>>>>and the tunnel egress should
>>>>        use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-marking).
>>>There are no modes for an RFC6040 egress. Modes are only for the
>>>ingress.
>>OK, noted. I did know that really, I was being careless.
>>
>>>The important point is not what the tunnel egress does (assuming the
>>>arrangement in the Fig below), but that the PCN egress doesn't zero
>>>the outer ECN field.
>>Indeed...
>>
>>>>Note that
>>>>        this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not compatible with
>>>the
>>>>        experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].
>>>s/this/PCN marking on interior nodes/
>>>
>>>
>>>>     In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be used unless
>>>>     specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of tunneling
>>>>     and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress nodes.  That
>>>is,
>>>>     any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-domain as
>>>>     illustrated in the following figure:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                  ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>>>>                 .   ,--------.                   ,--------.    .
>>>>                .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-  |_   .
>>>>                .  / | ingress |                   | egress | \  .
>>>>                 .|  '---------'                   '--------'  |.
>>>>                  | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .|
>>>>             ,--------.                                     ,--------.
>>>>       _____| Tunnel  |                                     | Tunnel
>>>|____
>>>>            | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - | Egress |
>>>>            '---------'                                     '--------'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>               Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN actions
>>>>"
>>>nice ASCII art.
>>Thanks :)
>>
>>>
>>>>I hope this captures all the key elements from the discussion.
>>>>
>>>>I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards to
>>>updating
>>>>RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be dependent on it
>>>as
>>>>well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a standalone
>>>>section:
>>>>
>>>>"Section N. Effect on baseline encoding
>>>>
>>>>The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01 codepoint was
>>>for use
>>>>in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such experiments.
>>>This
>>>>document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning. Consequently
>>>this
>>>>document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01 codepoint for
>>>>experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept the risk
>>>that
>>>>PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be compatible
>>>with
>>>>their experiment."
>>>It would be dangerous for me to respond to this now - I'm too tired
>>>to think straight. But my gut feeling is that the wording should lean
>>>more towards "updates", and less towards appearing to encourage more
>>>experimentation, which would run counter to interoperability - the
>>>raison d'etre of a standards body.
>>OK, I can probably highlight that we are not recommending people start
>>experiments, but if they are already using the EXP codepoint for anything
>>else they need to be aware of this clash...
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Two inline responses to Michael at the end
>>>One from me too...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Toby
>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>Of
>>>>>Toby Moncaster
>>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
>>>>>To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
>>>>>Cc: pcn@ietf.org
>>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on this
>>>>>draft:
>>>>>
>>>>>1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
>>>>>
>>>>>2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively updates
>>>>>RFC5696
>>>>>and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on
>>>their
>>>>>own
>>>>>(which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an experiment!).
>>>>>
>>>>>3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
>>>>>
>>>>>I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline
>>>which is
>>>>>that
>>>>>this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
>>>>>
>>>>>Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see it we
>>>are
>>>>>always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance I am
>>>not
>>>>>sure
>>>>>if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding being
>>>>>dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
>>>>>
>>>>>Of course we could always revive the option we discussed, where we
>>>>>obsolete
>>>>>RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft
>>>(which
>>>>>could
>>>>>then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
>>>>>
>>>>>Thoughts anyone?
>>>>>
>>>>>Toby
>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
>>>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
>>>>>>To: Michael Menth
>>>>>>Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Michael,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
>>>>>>>Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a
>>>>>>>slight rewording:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Handling of ECN traffic
>>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
>>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>>>>>      - no action needed
>>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
>>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible
>>>DSCP
>>>>>>>in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
>>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and
>>>egress
>>>>>>>re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN in
>>>the
>>>>>>>outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of
>>>ECN
>>>>>>>for this traffic within the PCN domain.
>>>>>>We ought to recommend one:
>>>>>>#2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain
>>>extent.
>>>>>>THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs
>>>(e.g.
>>>>>>MPLS or Ethernet).
>>>>>>#1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same.
>>>So
>>>>>>#1 can be chucked.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
>>>>>>>      - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN
>>>field of
>>>>>>>PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
>>>>>>Not recommended
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
>>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
>>>>>>>ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
>>>>>>recommended
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
>>>>>>>indicated to receive PCN marks
>>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>but
>>>>>>>the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation
>>>>>>>according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn
>>>ECT(0)
>>>>>>>into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
>>>>>>Good point.
>>>>>>This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Another two questions
>>>>>>>* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is
>>>subject
>>>>>>>to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems
>>>to be
>>>>>>>a similar issue.
>>>>>>Similar to what?
>>>>What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the DSCP of an
>>>>arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet, should that
>>>change
>>>>be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to get rather
>>>>obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of suitable
>>>DSCPs for
>>>>PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an existing
>>>DSCP
>>>>providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an operator
>>>chooses
>>>>to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so. If I
>>>recall
>>>>right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains anyway...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
>>>>>>>interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics?
>>>Have
>>>>>>>we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
>>>>>>Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
>>>>Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need to state
>>>this
>>>>anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-domain. IN
>>>>appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a marking
>>>behaviour for
>>>>use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues
>>>Given we are talking about e2e ECN support across a PCN domain, it
>>>would do no harm to reinforce the idea that a DSCP cannot even be
>>>considered PCN-compatible when it is outside a PCN domain - it has
>>>its usual scheulding PHB, but its congestion marking behaviour is the
>>>ECN default, not PCN.
>>Would adding the following (in a suitable place) suffice?:
>>
>>"PCN is in effect a congestion marking behaviour for use with realtime
>>traffic in a controlled domain. As such, within the PCN-domain, PCN marking
>>replaces ECN marking for any PCN-enabled DSCPs. Outside the PCN-domain, ECN
>>remains the default behaviour for all DSCPs."
>>
>>Toby
>>
>>>
>>>Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Best wishes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      Michael
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>>>>>>>University of Tuebingen
>>>>>>>Faculty of Science
>>>>>>>Department of Computer Science
>>>>>>>Chair of Communication Networks
>>>>>>>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>>>>>>>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>>>>>>>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>>>>>>>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>>>>>>>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>>>>>>________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>PCN mailing list
>>>>>PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>________________________________________________________________
>>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
>
>--
>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>University of Tuebingen
>Faculty of Science
>Department of Computer Science
>Chair of Communication Networks
>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de

________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design 


From menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Apr 15 08:13:06 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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Hi Toby,

>>>      ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-
>> compatible
>>>      DSCP: There are two options.
>>>
>>>         *  The ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and the egress
>> re-
>>>            maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP.
>>>
>>>         *  The ingress tunnels the traffic, setting not-PCN in the
>> outer
>>>            header; note that this turns off ECN for this traffic
>> within
>>>            the PCN domain.
>>>
>>>         The first option is recommended unless you are short of local
>>>         DSCPs.
>> What's wrong with this option?
>>       - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible DSCP in
>> the outer header (any tunnel may be used); this does not turn off ECN
>> within the PCN domain.
> The problem is that it might change the PHB scheduling for those packets. We
> want to avoid that if at all possible. Obviously an operator could choose to
> use that approach, but we don't want to recommend things that have actual
> negative impact.

That is right. And for exactly the same reason I think we should also 
mention that care must be taken when non-PCN-DSCP are changed to 
PCN-DSCP.  We do not need to limit the choices, but I think we should 
enumerate what's possible and where the caveats are.

Michael


> Toby
>

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


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Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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Hi Bob, Toby,

Am 15.04.2011 16:50, schrieb Bob Briscoe:
>
>>>>>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-
>>>> compatible
>>>>>     DSCP:
>>>> s/sharing a PCN-compatible DSCP/using a PCN-compatible DSCP on
>>>> arrival at the PCN ingress/
>
> On second thoughts, we should head this item
> "ECN capable traffic that does not require admission control but 
> carries a DSCP that the PCN-ingress is using for PCN-capable traffic."
>
> HOWEVER, I don't think this case is possible. If traffic arrives with 
> a DSCP that would be used for PCN, it is signalling that it requires 
> admission control [RFC5865].

Hey, this is only an assumption. So far we have avoided to say 
PCN=Voice-Admit. And as long as we don't say that, we must treat this case.

Regards,

     Michael

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


From toby@moncaster.com  Sat Apr 16 01:54:52 2011
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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
To: "'Bob Briscoe'" <bob.briscoe@bt.com>, "'Michael Menth'" <menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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Bob, Michael,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> Sent: 15 April 2011 15:51
> To: Michael Menth
> Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> 
> Toby, Michael,
> 
> 1/ We need to have a clearer think about the implications of putting
> "Updates 5696" in the header block. We ought to start another thread
> for that.

Yes. Will try and compose one later today or tomorrow (as it's rather nice
weather today).


> 
> 2/ e2e ECN appendix
> Now that I'm awake, I've realised the wording of the headings for the
> four options we are discussing needs to be completely reframed.
> 
> End nodes don't ask for PCN control, they ask for admission control.
> An operator chooses what mechanism to use for admission control over
> their segment of the path, and PCN is just one possible mechanism
> they might choose.
> 
> At the outset, we need to list the two main ways that end-nodes tell
> the network that they need admission control, which in turn makes the
> PCN-ingress remark their traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP:
> 
> A) flow signalling associates a filterspec with a need for admission
> control (e.g. thru RSVP or some equivalent message down from a SIP
> server to the ingress), and the PCN ingress remarks traffic matching
> that filterspec to a PCN-compatible DSCP, as its chosen admission
> control mechanism.
> 
> B) Traffic arrives with a DSCP that implies it requires admission
> control such as VOICE-ADMIT [RFC5865] or Interactive Real-Time,
> Broadcast TV when used for video on demand, and Multimedia
> Conferencing [RFC4594, RFC5865].

You need to re-read the appendix of RFC5696 where we discuss DSCP-related
issues. 

I am very unkeen to add so much extra text to what should be a simple
encoding document. This will end up making the appendix nearly as long as
the main document. I also have concerns that this sort of thing is really
architectural. This document isn't about telling operators which of their
traffic they should be doing admission control on. 

I would rather we just put a simple paragraph saying what you have in your
intro to this point: 

" End nodes don't ask for PCN control, they ask for admission control.
 An operator chooses what mechanism to use for admission control over
 their segment of the path, and PCN is just one possible mechanism
 they might choose."


> 
> We need to define two phrases, such as:
> * "Traffic that requires admission control" as traffic that uses
> either method A or B.
> * "Traffic that does not require admission control" as traffic that
> uses neither of methods A or B.

OK, happy to have those definitions, but we are going to find ourselves
tying knots as we try and talk about traffic that doesn't need admission
control but which shares the same DSCP...

> 
> THen inline below I suggest corrected text for each of the four
> headings.
> 
> 3/ e2e ECN appendix
> Otherwise, I think we've converged on the text within each heading. I
> have inserted comments inline to confirm the necessary wordsmithing...
> 
> 
> At 11:04 15/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
> >Toby, Bob,
> >
> >Am 15.04.2011 10:31, schrieb Toby Moncaster:
> >>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> >>>Sent: 15 April 2011 04:14
> >>>To: Toby Moncaster
> >>>Cc: 'Toby Moncaster'; 'Michael Menth'; pcn@ietf.org
> >>>Subject: RE: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> >>>
> >>>Toby,
> >>>
> >>>At 11:53 14/04/2011, Toby Moncaster wrote:
> >>>>I am trying to bash the ECN compatibility text into a usable
> appendix
> >>>for
> >>>>the document. This is what I have so far:
> >>>>
> >>>>"Appendix A.  Co-existence of ECN and PCN (informative)
> >>>>
> >>>>     The PCN encoding described in this document re-uses the bits
> of
> >>>the
> >>>>     ECN field in the IP header.  Consequently, this disables ECN
> >>>within
> >>>>     the PCN domain.
> >>>s/Consequently,/Without additional measures,/
> >>>
> >>>>Appendix B of [RFC5696] included advice on handling
> >>>>     ECN traffic within a PCN-domain.  This appendix clarifies that
> >>>>     advice.
> >>>s/clarifies/updates/
> >>>
> >>>[I assume you will have some sort of lead in sentence to the list
> here]
> >>Yes, but inspiration was proving elusive...
> 
> "There are a four possible cases for how e2e ECN traffic may wish to
> be treated while crossing a PCN domain:"

OK

> 
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control and not sharing a
> PCN-
> >>>>     compatible DSCP: This requires no action.
> 
> There is no such thing as a PCN-compatible DSCP for traffic arriving
> at a PCN ingress (a PCN-compatible DSCP is only defined within a PCN
> region).
> 
> We should head this item
> "ECN capable traffic that does not require admission control and does
> not carry a DSCP that the PCN-ingress is using for PCN-capable
> traffic."

OK, happy to have something like that

> 
> 
> >>>>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-
> >>>compatible
> >>>>     DSCP:
> >>>s/sharing a PCN-compatible DSCP/using a PCN-compatible DSCP on
> >>>arrival at the PCN ingress/
> 
> On second thoughts, we should head this item
> "ECN capable traffic that does not require admission control but
> carries a DSCP that the PCN-ingress is using for PCN-capable traffic."
> 
> HOWEVER, I don't think this case is possible. If traffic arrives with
> a DSCP that would be used for PCN, it is signalling that it requires
> admission control [RFC5865].

BUT some of that traffic may in fact be automatically admitted (because of
policy), hence it wouldn't use PCN...

My own view is this whole case needn't be mentioned because the traffic is
neither ECN nor PCN. If we were to list all negative cases we would get an
even longer appendix!

> 
> 
> >>>>There are two options.
> >>>>
> >>>>        *  The ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and the egress
> re-
> >>>>           maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP.
> 
> s/local DSCP/local DSCP with the same scheduling PHB as the original
> DSCP/

Fair point. I meant to add something like that.

> 
> 
> >>>>        *  The ingress tunnels the traffic, setting not-PCN in the
> >>>outer
> >>>>           header; note that this turns off ECN for this traffic
> within
> >>>>           the PCN domain.
> >>>>
> >>>>        The first option is recommended unless you are short of
> local
> >>>>        DSCPs.
> >>>Good.
> >>>
> >>>s/you are/the operator is/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control:
> >>>s/being subjected to/to be subjected to PCN control rather than ECN
> >>>marking across the PCN domain/
> 
> We should head this item
> "Traffic that requires admission control."
> 
> 
> >>>>There are two options.
> >>>>
> >>>>        *  The ingress places this traffic in a tunnel with a PCN-
> >>>>           compatible DSCP in the outer header.  The egress zeroes
> the
> >>>>           ECN-field before decapsulation.
> >>>s/the ECN-field/the outer ECN-field/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>        *  ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN
> field
> >>>of
> >>>>           PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN.
> 
> s/ingress/PCN ingress/
> s/egress/PCN egress/
> delete/which disables end-to-end ECN/
> 
> 
> >>>>        The second option is not recommended.
> 
> a/unless tunnelling is not possible for some reason./
> 
> >>>No need to even mention it then, unless there's a compromise
> scenario
> >>>where the 1st option wouldn't be suitable.
> >>>
> >>>BTW, I don't see why the egress has to zero ECN, or indeed why this
> >>>disables e2e ECN, unless it means it zero's the inner (and if so
> why?).
> >>Surely the PCN-egress has to zero the ECN field before the packet is
> >>decapsulated? Otherwise the decapsulator will transfer the PCN
> marking from
> >>the PCN-domain onto the ECN packet...
> 
> You're right - the PCN egress needs to zero the outer ECN.
> 
> But this doesn't disable e2e ECN, because it's still enabled in the
> inner, which any tunnel egress forwards unchanged, if the outer is Not-
> ECN.

It makes the e2e ECN less E2E, but then ECN is pretty non-existent anyway
currently.

> 
> 
> 
> >>>>     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver indicates
> >>>desire
> >>>>     to see PCN marks:
> 
> We should head this item
> "Traffic that requires admission control, where the e2e transport
> somehow indicates it wants to see PCN marks."

s/"somehow indicates"/"signals that"

> 
> 
> 
> >>>>        Schemes have been suggested where PCN marks may be leaked
> out
> >>>of
> >>>>        the PCN-domain and used by the end hosts to modify realtime
> >>>data
> >>>>        rates.
> >>>s/used by the end hosts to modify realtime data rates./
> >>>    /used by adaptive codecs in the end hosts to modify realtime
> data
> >>>rates./
> >>>
> >>>>Currently all such schemes are experimental and the
> >>>>        following is for guidance only.
> >>>>
> >>>>        The ingress needs to tunnel the traffic using [RFC6040].
> 
> insert/The PCN-ingress will by default set the outer ECN field to
> Not-marked and then/
> 
> Hope this all helps.

I'll try and unravel all the changes and send a revised version by Monday...
It won't necessarily include all the suggestions (see the inline comment at
the top), and there is a chance I may miss a couple!

Toby


> 
> 
> Bob
> 
> >>>>The
> >>>PCN-
> >>>>        egress should not zero the ECN field,
> >>>Don't agree. ECN should never leak into PCN, but PCN might be OK to
> >>>leak to ECN receiver.
> >>I'm not allowing ECN to leak into PCN. I am (in limited
> circumstances)
> >>allowing the PCN-domain to over-write the ECN information and hence
> leak PCN
> >>information to the receiver.
> >>
> >>>Reasoning: admission of a flow should only depend on PCN marking
> >>>within the PCN region. It shouldn't depend on ECN marking from
> queues
> >>>outside the PCN region, which will not have been configured to give
> >>>good signals at the right load levels.
> >>Oh, I think I see your point. RFC6040 tunnels will set the ECN of the
> outer
> >>header to whatever is in the inner header. BUT you are forgetting
> that the
> >>default behaviour of the PCN-ingress is to clear whatever is in the
> outer
> >>header and set it to 10 (if the traffic is PCN) or 00 (if the traffic
> is
> >>not-PCN)
> >
> >Mentioning that would be helpful. Also we need to remember that but
> >often forget about it and then we wonder about the text ...
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >     Michael
> >
> >>>The reverse argument seems less likely to apply to leaking PCN to
> >>>receiver, because any decent level of PCN will usefully trigger a
> >>>lower rate, thus potentially avoiding the need to block admissions.
> >>>
> >>>>and the tunnel egress should
> >>>>        use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-marking).
> >>>There are no modes for an RFC6040 egress. Modes are only for the
> >>>ingress.
> >>OK, noted. I did know that really, I was being careless.
> >>
> >>>The important point is not what the tunnel egress does (assuming the
> >>>arrangement in the Fig below), but that the PCN egress doesn't zero
> >>>the outer ECN field.
> >>Indeed...
> >>
> >>>>Note that
> >>>>        this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not compatible
> with
> >>>the
> >>>>        experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].
> >>>s/this/PCN marking on interior nodes/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>     In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be used
> unless
> >>>>     specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of
> tunneling
> >>>>     and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress nodes.
> That
> >>>is,
> >>>>     any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-domain as
> >>>>     illustrated in the following figure:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>                  ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> >>>>                 .   ,--------.                   ,--------.    .
> >>>>                .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-  |_   .
> >>>>                .  / | ingress |                   | egress | \  .
> >>>>                 .|  '---------'                   '--------'  |.
> >>>>                  | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .|
> >>>>             ,--------.                                     ,------
> --.
> >>>>       _____| Tunnel  |                                     |
> Tunnel
> >>>|____
> >>>>            | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - |
> Egress |
> >>>>            '---------'                                     '------
> --'
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>               Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN actions
> >>>>"
> >>>nice ASCII art.
> >>Thanks :)
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>I hope this captures all the key elements from the discussion.
> >>>>
> >>>>I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards to
> >>>updating
> >>>>RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be dependent on
> it
> >>>as
> >>>>well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a
> standalone
> >>>>section:
> >>>>
> >>>>"Section N. Effect on baseline encoding
> >>>>
> >>>>The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01 codepoint was
> >>>for use
> >>>>in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such
> experiments.
> >>>This
> >>>>document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning.
> Consequently
> >>>this
> >>>>document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01 codepoint
> for
> >>>>experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept the risk
> >>>that
> >>>>PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be
> compatible
> >>>with
> >>>>their experiment."
> >>>It would be dangerous for me to respond to this now - I'm too tired
> >>>to think straight. But my gut feeling is that the wording should
> lean
> >>>more towards "updates", and less towards appearing to encourage more
> >>>experimentation, which would run counter to interoperability - the
> >>>raison d'etre of a standards body.
> >>OK, I can probably highlight that we are not recommending people
> start
> >>experiments, but if they are already using the EXP codepoint for
> anything
> >>else they need to be aware of this clash...
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Two inline responses to Michael at the end
> >>>One from me too...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Toby
> >>>>
> >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> >>>Of
> >>>>>Toby Moncaster
> >>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
> >>>>>To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
> >>>>>Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> >>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on this
> >>>>>draft:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively updates
> >>>>>RFC5696
> >>>>>and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on
> >>>their
> >>>>>own
> >>>>>(which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an experiment!).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline
> >>>which is
> >>>>>that
> >>>>>this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see it
> we
> >>>are
> >>>>>always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance I am
> >>>not
> >>>>>sure
> >>>>>if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding
> being
> >>>>>dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Of course we could always revive the option we discussed, where we
> >>>>>obsolete
> >>>>>RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft
> >>>(which
> >>>>>could
> >>>>>then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Thoughts anyone?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Toby
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> >>>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
> >>>>>>To: Michael Menth
> >>>>>>Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Michael,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
> >>>>>>>Hi all,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a
> >>>>>>>slight rewording:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Handling of ECN traffic
> >>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
> >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
> >>>>>>>      - no action needed
> >>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
> >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
> >>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible
> >>>DSCP
> >>>>>>>in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
> >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and
> >>>egress
> >>>>>>>re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
> >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN
> in
> >>>the
> >>>>>>>outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of
> >>>ECN
> >>>>>>>for this traffic within the PCN domain.
> >>>>>>We ought to recommend one:
> >>>>>>#2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain
> >>>extent.
> >>>>>>THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs
> >>>(e.g.
> >>>>>>MPLS or Ethernet).
> >>>>>>#1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same.
> >>>So
> >>>>>>#1 can be chucked.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
> >>>>>>>      - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN
> >>>field of
> >>>>>>>PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
> >>>>>>Not recommended
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
> >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
> >>>>>>>ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
> >>>>>>recommended
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
> >>>>>>>indicated to receive PCN marks
> >>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
> >>>but
> >>>>>>>the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation
> >>>>>>>according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn
> >>>ECT(0)
> >>>>>>>into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
> >>>>>>Good point.
> >>>>>>This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Another two questions
> >>>>>>>* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is
> >>>subject
> >>>>>>>to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems
> >>>to be
> >>>>>>>a similar issue.
> >>>>>>Similar to what?
> >>>>What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the DSCP of
> an
> >>>>arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet, should that
> >>>change
> >>>>be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to get
> rather
> >>>>obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of suitable
> >>>DSCPs for
> >>>>PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an
> existing
> >>>DSCP
> >>>>providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an operator
> >>>chooses
> >>>>to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so. If I
> >>>recall
> >>>>right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains
> anyway...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
> >>>>>>>interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics?
> >>>Have
> >>>>>>>we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
> >>>>>>Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
> >>>>Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need to
> state
> >>>this
> >>>>anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-domain.
> IN
> >>>>appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a marking
> >>>behaviour for
> >>>>use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues
> >>>Given we are talking about e2e ECN support across a PCN domain, it
> >>>would do no harm to reinforce the idea that a DSCP cannot even be
> >>>considered PCN-compatible when it is outside a PCN domain - it has
> >>>its usual scheulding PHB, but its congestion marking behaviour is
> the
> >>>ECN default, not PCN.
> >>Would adding the following (in a suitable place) suffice?:
> >>
> >>"PCN is in effect a congestion marking behaviour for use with
> realtime
> >>traffic in a controlled domain. As such, within the PCN-domain, PCN
> marking
> >>replaces ECN marking for any PCN-enabled DSCPs. Outside the PCN-
> domain, ECN
> >>remains the default behaviour for all DSCPs."
> >>
> >>Toby
> >>
> >>>
> >>>Bob
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Bob
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Best wishes,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>      Michael
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> >>>>>>>University of Tuebingen
> >>>>>>>Faculty of Science
> >>>>>>>Department of Computer Science
> >>>>>>>Chair of Communication Networks
> >>>>>>>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> >>>>>>>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> >>>>>>>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> >>>>>>>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> >>>>>>>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> >>>>>>________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
> >>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>PCN mailing list
> >>>>>PCN@ietf.org
> >>>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >>>________________________________________________________________
> >>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
> >
> >--
> >Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> >University of Tuebingen
> >Faculty of Science
> >Department of Computer Science
> >Chair of Communication Networks
> >Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> >phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> >fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> >mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> >http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design


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Michael,

At 16:20 15/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
>Hi Bob, Toby,
>
>Am 15.04.2011 16:50, schrieb Bob Briscoe:
>>
>>>>>>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-
>>>>>compatible
>>>>>>     DSCP:
>>>>>s/sharing a PCN-compatible DSCP/using a PCN-compatible DSCP on
>>>>>arrival at the PCN ingress/
>>
>>On second thoughts, we should head this item
>>"ECN capable traffic that does not require admission control but 
>>carries a DSCP that the PCN-ingress is using for PCN-capable traffic."
>>
>>HOWEVER, I don't think this case is possible. If traffic arrives 
>>with a DSCP that would be used for PCN, it is signalling that it 
>>requires admission control [RFC5865].
>
>Hey, this is only an assumption. So far we have avoided to say 
>PCN=Voice-Admit. And as long as we don't say that, we must treat this case.

[Firstly a picky point: RFC5865 defines four DSCPs as meaning that 
admission control is required: not just VOICE-ADMIT, but also CS4, 
CS3 & AF4, and it doesn't preclude the list being extended in future. 
Let's call them *-ADMIT, even though they aren't named like that]

True, we have only made an non-normative recommendation that PCN 
should use *-ADMIT.

But then we should explain that this is a corner-case that can be 
avoided by following our recommendation that advises on which DSCPs 
to use for PCN. It would only happen if:
a) The PCN region chooses one of the 252 DSCPs other than the four 
*-ADMIT DSCPs recommended for use as a PCN-compatible DSCP.
b) some arriving traffic other than that wanting admission control 
just happens to use the same DSCP that the PCN region chose.



Bob


>Regards,
>
>     Michael
>
>--
>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>University of Tuebingen
>Faculty of Science
>Department of Computer Science
>Chair of Communication Networks
>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de

________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design 


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Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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Toby,

At 09:54 16/04/2011, Toby Moncaster wrote:
>Bob, Michael,
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> > Sent: 15 April 2011 15:51
> > To: Michael Menth
> > Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> >
> > Toby, Michael,
> >
> > 2/ e2e ECN appendix
> > Now that I'm awake, I've realised the wording of the headings for the
> > four options we are discussing needs to be completely reframed.
> >
> > End nodes don't ask for PCN control, they ask for admission control.
> > An operator chooses what mechanism to use for admission control over
> > their segment of the path, and PCN is just one possible mechanism
> > they might choose.
> >
> > At the outset, we need to list the two main ways that end-nodes tell
> > the network that they need admission control, which in turn makes the
> > PCN-ingress remark their traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP:
> >
> > A) flow signalling associates a filterspec with a need for admission
> > control (e.g. thru RSVP or some equivalent message down from a SIP
> > server to the ingress), and the PCN ingress remarks traffic matching
> > that filterspec to a PCN-compatible DSCP, as its chosen admission
> > control mechanism.
> >
> > B) Traffic arrives with a DSCP that implies it requires admission
> > control such as VOICE-ADMIT [RFC5865] or Interactive Real-Time,
> > Broadcast TV when used for video on demand, and Multimedia
> > Conferencing [RFC4594, RFC5865].
>
>You need to re-read the appendix of RFC5696 where we discuss DSCP-related
>issues.

I did before writing that email.

>I am very unkeen to add so much extra text to what should be a simple
>encoding document. This will end up making the appendix nearly as long as
>the main document. I also have concerns that this sort of thing is really
>architectural. This document isn't about telling operators which of their
>traffic they should be doing admission control on.
>
>I would rather we just put a simple paragraph saying what you have in your
>intro to this point:
>
>" End nodes don't ask for PCN control, they ask for admission control.
>  An operator chooses what mechanism to use for admission control over
>  their segment of the path, and PCN is just one possible mechanism
>  they might choose."

We need to provide some explanation for why we suddenly started 
talking about these four cases. So we do need to say what we mean by 
end-nodes asking for admission control. It would be nice to cite 
something that explains, but we don't have anything, because RFC5865 
on DSCPs for admission contrl went through after all the PCN RFCs so far.

So I think we have to treat this appendix as the latest definitive 
word on the two mains ways that end points might use to signal that 
they want admission control, even tho it's not really relevant to 
this doc. The only alternative would be to update the PCN 
architecture RFC, and I don't want to go there.

> > We need to define two phrases, such as:
> > * "Traffic that requires admission control" as traffic that uses
> > either method A or B.
> > * "Traffic that does not require admission control" as traffic that
> > uses neither of methods A or B.
>
>OK, happy to have those definitions, but we are going to find ourselves
>tying knots as we try and talk about traffic that doesn't need admission
>control but which shares the same DSCP...

[snip]

> > >>>>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-
> > >>>compatible
> > >>>>     DSCP:
> > >>>s/sharing a PCN-compatible DSCP/using a PCN-compatible DSCP on
> > >>>arrival at the PCN ingress/
> >
> > On second thoughts, we should head this item
> > "ECN capable traffic that does not require admission control but
> > carries a DSCP that the PCN-ingress is using for PCN-capable traffic."
> >
> > HOWEVER, I don't think this case is possible. If traffic arrives with
> > a DSCP that would be used for PCN, it is signalling that it requires
> > admission control [RFC5865].
>
>BUT some of that traffic may in fact be automatically admitted (because of
>policy), hence it wouldn't use PCN...
>
>My own view is this whole case needn't be mentioned because the traffic is
>neither ECN nor PCN. If we were to list all negative cases we would get an
>even longer appendix!

Well, the traffic *is* ECN and it is confusable with PCN traffic. As 
I just said in my mail to Michael, it would only be confusible with 
PCN traffic if the PCN operator decided to use weird DSCPs for PCN.

How about not listing this case as if it is normal, but instead 
mention it as a 'footnote' to this appendix, as an abnormal case to 
be avoided if possible, perhaps:

"It is strongly RECOMMENDED that the advice in A.1 of the PCN 
baseline encoding [RFC5696] is followed when choosing which DSCP 
indicates PCN-compatible traffic. Otherwise nodes within the PCN 
region will mistake traffic using e2e ECN for PCN-traffic if it also 
happens to use the chosen DSCP. To avoid this confusion, the PCN 
ingress would have to remark this traffic to another DSCP, causing 
further complication and confusion downstream."

> >
> > >>>>     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver indicates
> > >>>desire
> > >>>>     to see PCN marks:
> >
> > We should head this item
> > "Traffic that requires admission control, where the e2e transport
> > somehow indicates it wants to see PCN marks."
>
>s/"somehow indicates"/"signals that"

If you want.
I was trying to avoid being prescriptive about how it might be done.

>I'll try and unravel all the changes and send a revised version by Monday...
>It won't necessarily include all the suggestions (see the inline comment at
>the top), and there is a chance I may miss a couple!

Yes, when I prepared the email you just replied to, I tried to pull 
together everything that had been said, so I hope that posting will 
be useful for you.

Cheers


Bob


>Toby
>
>
> >
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > >>>>The
> > >>>PCN-
> > >>>>        egress should not zero the ECN field,
> > >>>Don't agree. ECN should never leak into PCN, but PCN might be OK to
> > >>>leak to ECN receiver.
> > >>I'm not allowing ECN to leak into PCN. I am (in limited
> > circumstances)
> > >>allowing the PCN-domain to over-write the ECN information and hence
> > leak PCN
> > >>information to the receiver.
> > >>
> > >>>Reasoning: admission of a flow should only depend on PCN marking
> > >>>within the PCN region. It shouldn't depend on ECN marking from
> > queues
> > >>>outside the PCN region, which will not have been configured to give
> > >>>good signals at the right load levels.
> > >>Oh, I think I see your point. RFC6040 tunnels will set the ECN of the
> > outer
> > >>header to whatever is in the inner header. BUT you are forgetting
> > that the
> > >>default behaviour of the PCN-ingress is to clear whatever is in the
> > outer
> > >>header and set it to 10 (if the traffic is PCN) or 00 (if the traffic
> > is
> > >>not-PCN)
> > >
> > >Mentioning that would be helpful. Also we need to remember that but
> > >often forget about it and then we wonder about the text ...
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >
> > >     Michael
> > >
> > >>>The reverse argument seems less likely to apply to leaking PCN to
> > >>>receiver, because any decent level of PCN will usefully trigger a
> > >>>lower rate, thus potentially avoiding the need to block admissions.
> > >>>
> > >>>>and the tunnel egress should
> > >>>>        use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-marking).
> > >>>There are no modes for an RFC6040 egress. Modes are only for the
> > >>>ingress.
> > >>OK, noted. I did know that really, I was being careless.
> > >>
> > >>>The important point is not what the tunnel egress does (assuming the
> > >>>arrangement in the Fig below), but that the PCN egress doesn't zero
> > >>>the outer ECN field.
> > >>Indeed...
> > >>
> > >>>>Note that
> > >>>>        this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not compatible
> > with
> > >>>the
> > >>>>        experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].
> > >>>s/this/PCN marking on interior nodes/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>     In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be used
> > unless
> > >>>>     specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of
> > tunneling
> > >>>>     and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress nodes.
> > That
> > >>>is,
> > >>>>     any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-domain as
> > >>>>     illustrated in the following figure:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>                  ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> > >>>>                 .   ,--------.                   ,--------.    .
> > >>>>                .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-  |_   .
> > >>>>                .  / | ingress |                   | egress | \  .
> > >>>>                 .|  '---------'                   '--------'  |.
> > >>>>                  | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .|
> > >>>>             ,--------.                                     ,------
> > --.
> > >>>>       _____| Tunnel  |                                     |
> > Tunnel
> > >>>|____
> > >>>>            | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - |
> > Egress |
> > >>>>            '---------'                                     '------
> > --'
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>               Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN actions
> > >>>>"
> > >>>nice ASCII art.
> > >>Thanks :)
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>>I hope this captures all the key elements from the discussion.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards to
> > >>>updating
> > >>>>RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be dependent on
> > it
> > >>>as
> > >>>>well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a
> > standalone
> > >>>>section:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>"Section N. Effect on baseline encoding
> > >>>>
> > >>>>The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01 codepoint was
> > >>>for use
> > >>>>in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such
> > experiments.
> > >>>This
> > >>>>document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning.
> > Consequently
> > >>>this
> > >>>>document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01 codepoint
> > for
> > >>>>experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept the risk
> > >>>that
> > >>>>PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be
> > compatible
> > >>>with
> > >>>>their experiment."
> > >>>It would be dangerous for me to respond to this now - I'm too tired
> > >>>to think straight. But my gut feeling is that the wording should
> > lean
> > >>>more towards "updates", and less towards appearing to encourage more
> > >>>experimentation, which would run counter to interoperability - the
> > >>>raison d'etre of a standards body.
> > >>OK, I can probably highlight that we are not recommending people
> > start
> > >>experiments, but if they are already using the EXP codepoint for
> > anything
> > >>else they need to be aware of this clash...
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Two inline responses to Michael at the end
> > >>>One from me too...
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Toby
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > >>>Of
> > >>>>>Toby Moncaster
> > >>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
> > >>>>>To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
> > >>>>>Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > >>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on this
> > >>>>>draft:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively updates
> > >>>>>RFC5696
> > >>>>>and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on
> > >>>their
> > >>>>>own
> > >>>>>(which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an experiment!).
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline
> > >>>which is
> > >>>>>that
> > >>>>>this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see it
> > we
> > >>>are
> > >>>>>always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance I am
> > >>>not
> > >>>>>sure
> > >>>>>if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding
> > being
> > >>>>>dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Of course we could always revive the option we discussed, where we
> > >>>>>obsolete
> > >>>>>RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft
> > >>>(which
> > >>>>>could
> > >>>>>then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Thoughts anyone?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Toby
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>>From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> > >>>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
> > >>>>>>To: Michael Menth
> > >>>>>>Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> > >>>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>Michael,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
> > >>>>>>>Hi all,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a
> > >>>>>>>slight rewording:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>Handling of ECN traffic
> > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
> > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
> > >>>>>>>      - no action needed
> > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
> > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
> > >>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible
> > >>>DSCP
> > >>>>>>>in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
> > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and
> > >>>egress
> > >>>>>>>re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
> > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN
> > in
> > >>>the
> > >>>>>>>outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of
> > >>>ECN
> > >>>>>>>for this traffic within the PCN domain.
> > >>>>>>We ought to recommend one:
> > >>>>>>#2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain
> > >>>extent.
> > >>>>>>THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs
> > >>>(e.g.
> > >>>>>>MPLS or Ethernet).
> > >>>>>>#1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same.
> > >>>So
> > >>>>>>#1 can be chucked.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
> > >>>>>>>      - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN
> > >>>field of
> > >>>>>>>PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
> > >>>>>>Not recommended
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
> > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
> > >>>>>>>ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
> > >>>>>>recommended
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
> > >>>>>>>indicated to receive PCN marks
> > >>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
> > >>>but
> > >>>>>>>the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation
> > >>>>>>>according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn
> > >>>ECT(0)
> > >>>>>>>into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
> > >>>>>>Good point.
> > >>>>>>This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>Another two questions
> > >>>>>>>* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is
> > >>>subject
> > >>>>>>>to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems
> > >>>to be
> > >>>>>>>a similar issue.
> > >>>>>>Similar to what?
> > >>>>What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the DSCP of
> > an
> > >>>>arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet, should that
> > >>>change
> > >>>>be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to get
> > rather
> > >>>>obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of suitable
> > >>>DSCPs for
> > >>>>PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an
> > existing
> > >>>DSCP
> > >>>>providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an operator
> > >>>chooses
> > >>>>to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so. If I
> > >>>recall
> > >>>>right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains
> > anyway...
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
> > >>>>>>>interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics?
> > >>>Have
> > >>>>>>>we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
> > >>>>>>Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
> > >>>>Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need to
> > state
> > >>>this
> > >>>>anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-domain.
> > IN
> > >>>>appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a marking
> > >>>behaviour for
> > >>>>use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues
> > >>>Given we are talking about e2e ECN support across a PCN domain, it
> > >>>would do no harm to reinforce the idea that a DSCP cannot even be
> > >>>considered PCN-compatible when it is outside a PCN domain - it has
> > >>>its usual scheulding PHB, but its congestion marking behaviour is
> > the
> > >>>ECN default, not PCN.
> > >>Would adding the following (in a suitable place) suffice?:
> > >>
> > >>"PCN is in effect a congestion marking behaviour for use with
> > realtime
> > >>traffic in a controlled domain. As such, within the PCN-domain, PCN
> > marking
> > >>replaces ECN marking for any PCN-enabled DSCPs. Outside the PCN-
> > domain, ECN
> > >>remains the default behaviour for all DSCPs."
> > >>
> > >>Toby
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>Bob
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>Bob
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>Best wishes,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>      Michael
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>--
> > >>>>>>>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > >>>>>>>University of Tuebingen
> > >>>>>>>Faculty of Science
> > >>>>>>>Department of Computer Science
> > >>>>>>>Chair of Communication Networks
> > >>>>>>>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > >>>>>>>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > >>>>>>>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > >>>>>>>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > >>>>>>>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > >>>>>>________________________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
> > >>>>>_______________________________________________
> > >>>>>PCN mailing list
> > >>>>>PCN@ietf.org
> > >>>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > >>>________________________________________________________________
> > >>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
> > >
> > >--
> > >Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > >University of Tuebingen
> > >Faculty of Science
> > >Department of Computer Science
> > >Chair of Communication Networks
> > >Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > >phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > >fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > >mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > >http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design

________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design 


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Sun Apr 17 03:41:08 2011
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To: "Bob Briscoe" <bob.briscoe@bt.com>, "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 10:40:56 +0000
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Cc: "pcn@ietf.org" <pcn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
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Hi Toby, Hi Bob

In my opinion, in addition to the requirements/recommendations given in
the Appendix A and Appendix B in RFC5696 regarding "Choice of Suitable
DSCPs", "Rationale for Using ECT(0) for Not-Marked" and
"Co-Existence of PCN and ECN", I think that "3-in-1" draft should
also follow the recommendations given in Section 3.6 of RFC5559:

-----------------
3.6. Backwards Compatibility

   PCN specifies semantics for the ECN field that differ from the
   default semantics of [RFC3168]. A particular PCN encoding scheme
   needs to describe how it meets the guidelines of BCP 124 [RFC4774]
   for specifying alternative semantics for the ECN field. In summary,
   the approach is to:

   o use a DSCP to allow PCN-nodes to distinguish PCN-traffic that uses
      the alternative ECN semantics;

   o define these semantics for use within a controlled region, the
      PCN-domain;

   o take appropriate action if ECN-capable, non-PCN-traffic arrives at
      a PCN-ingress-node with the DSCP used by PCN.

   For the baseline encoding [Moncaster09-1], the "appropriate action"
   is to block ECN-capable traffic that uses the same DSCP as PCN from
   entering the PCN-domain directly. "Blocking" means it is dropped or
   downgraded to a lower-priority behaviour aggregate, or alternatively
   such traffic may be tunnelled through the PCN-domain. The reason
   that "appropriate action" is needed is that the PCN-egress-node
   clears the ECN field to 00.

   Extended encoding schemes may need to take different "appropriate
   action".

Best regards,
Georgios




On 4/16/2011, "Bob Briscoe" <bob.briscoe@bt.com> wrote:

>Toby,
>
>At 09:54 16/04/2011, Toby Moncaster wrote:
>>Bob, Michael,
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
>> > Sent: 15 April 2011 15:51
>> > To: Michael Menth
>> > Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
>> > Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>> >
>> > Toby, Michael,
>> >
>> > 2/ e2e ECN appendix
>> > Now that I'm awake, I've realised the wording of the headings for the
>> > four options we are discussing needs to be completely reframed.
>> >
>> > End nodes don't ask for PCN control, they ask for admission control.
>> > An operator chooses what mechanism to use for admission control over
>> > their segment of the path, and PCN is just one possible mechanism
>> > they might choose.
>> >
>> > At the outset, we need to list the two main ways that end-nodes tell
>> > the network that they need admission control, which in turn makes the
>> > PCN-ingress remark their traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP:
>> >
>> > A) flow signalling associates a filterspec with a need for admission
>> > control (e.g. thru RSVP or some equivalent message down from a SIP
>> > server to the ingress), and the PCN ingress remarks traffic matching
>> > that filterspec to a PCN-compatible DSCP, as its chosen admission
>> > control mechanism.
>> >
>> > B) Traffic arrives with a DSCP that implies it requires admission
>> > control such as VOICE-ADMIT [RFC5865] or Interactive Real-Time,
>> > Broadcast TV when used for video on demand, and Multimedia
>> > Conferencing [RFC4594, RFC5865].
>>
>>You need to re-read the appendix of RFC5696 where we discuss DSCP-related
>>issues.
>
>I did before writing that email.
>
>>I am very unkeen to add so much extra text to what should be a simple
>>encoding document. This will end up making the appendix nearly as long as
>>the main document. I also have concerns that this sort of thing is really
>>architectural. This document isn't about telling operators which of their
>>traffic they should be doing admission control on.
>>
>>I would rather we just put a simple paragraph saying what you have in your
>>intro to this point:
>>
>>" End nodes don't ask for PCN control, they ask for admission control.
>>  An operator chooses what mechanism to use for admission control over
>>  their segment of the path, and PCN is just one possible mechanism
>>  they might choose."
>
>We need to provide some explanation for why we suddenly started
>talking about these four cases. So we do need to say what we mean by
>end-nodes asking for admission control. It would be nice to cite
>something that explains, but we don't have anything, because RFC5865
>on DSCPs for admission contrl went through after all the PCN RFCs so far.
>
>So I think we have to treat this appendix as the latest definitive
>word on the two mains ways that end points might use to signal that
>they want admission control, even tho it's not really relevant to
>this doc. The only alternative would be to update the PCN
>architecture RFC, and I don't want to go there.
>
>> > We need to define two phrases, such as:
>> > * "Traffic that requires admission control" as traffic that uses
>> > either method A or B.
>> > * "Traffic that does not require admission control" as traffic that
>> > uses neither of methods A or B.
>>
>>OK, happy to have those definitions, but we are going to find ourselves
>>tying knots as we try and talk about traffic that doesn't need admission
>>control but which shares the same DSCP...
>
>[snip]
>
>> > >>>>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a PCN-
>> > >>>compatible
>> > >>>>     DSCP:
>> > >>>s/sharing a PCN-compatible DSCP/using a PCN-compatible DSCP on
>> > >>>arrival at the PCN ingress/
>> >
>> > On second thoughts, we should head this item
>> > "ECN capable traffic that does not require admission control but
>> > carries a DSCP that the PCN-ingress is using for PCN-capable traffic."
>> >
>> > HOWEVER, I don't think this case is possible. If traffic arrives with
>> > a DSCP that would be used for PCN, it is signalling that it requires
>> > admission control [RFC5865].
>>
>>BUT some of that traffic may in fact be automatically admitted (because of
>>policy), hence it wouldn't use PCN...
>>
>>My own view is this whole case needn't be mentioned because the traffic is
>>neither ECN nor PCN. If we were to list all negative cases we would get an
>>even longer appendix!
>
>Well, the traffic *is* ECN and it is confusable with PCN traffic. As
>I just said in my mail to Michael, it would only be confusible with
>PCN traffic if the PCN operator decided to use weird DSCPs for PCN.
>
>How about not listing this case as if it is normal, but instead
>mention it as a 'footnote' to this appendix, as an abnormal case to
>be avoided if possible, perhaps:
>
>"It is strongly RECOMMENDED that the advice in A.1 of the PCN
>baseline encoding [RFC5696] is followed when choosing which DSCP
>indicates PCN-compatible traffic. Otherwise nodes within the PCN
>region will mistake traffic using e2e ECN for PCN-traffic if it also
>happens to use the chosen DSCP. To avoid this confusion, the PCN
>ingress would have to remark this traffic to another DSCP, causing
>further complication and confusion downstream."
>
>> >
>> > >>>>     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver indicates
>> > >>>desire
>> > >>>>     to see PCN marks:
>> >
>> > We should head this item
>> > "Traffic that requires admission control, where the e2e transport
>> > somehow indicates it wants to see PCN marks."
>>
>>s/"somehow indicates"/"signals that"
>
>If you want.
>I was trying to avoid being prescriptive about how it might be done.
>
>>I'll try and unravel all the changes and send a revised version by Monday..=
.
>>It won't necessarily include all the suggestions (see the inline comment at
>>the top), and there is a chance I may miss a couple!
>
>Yes, when I prepared the email you just replied to, I tried to pull
>together everything that had been said, so I hope that posting will
>be useful for you.
>
>Cheers
>
>
>Bob
>
>
>>Toby
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Bob
>> >
>> > >>>>The
>> > >>>PCN-
>> > >>>>        egress should not zero the ECN field,
>> > >>>Don't agree. ECN should never leak into PCN, but PCN might be OK to
>> > >>>leak to ECN receiver.
>> > >>I'm not allowing ECN to leak into PCN. I am (in limited
>> > circumstances)
>> > >>allowing the PCN-domain to over-write the ECN information and hence
>> > leak PCN
>> > >>information to the receiver.
>> > >>
>> > >>>Reasoning: admission of a flow should only depend on PCN marking
>> > >>>within the PCN region. It shouldn't depend on ECN marking from
>> > queues
>> > >>>outside the PCN region, which will not have been configured to give
>> > >>>good signals at the right load levels.
>> > >>Oh, I think I see your point. RFC6040 tunnels will set the ECN of the
>> > outer
>> > >>header to whatever is in the inner header. BUT you are forgetting
>> > that the
>> > >>default behaviour of the PCN-ingress is to clear whatever is in the
>> > outer
>> > >>header and set it to 10 (if the traffic is PCN) or 00 (if the traffic
>> > is
>> > >>not-PCN)
>> > >
>> > >Mentioning that would be helpful. Also we need to remember that but
>> > >often forget about it and then we wonder about the text ...
>> > >
>> > >Regards,
>> > >
>> > >     Michael
>> > >
>> > >>>The reverse argument seems less likely to apply to leaking PCN to
>> > >>>receiver, because any decent level of PCN will usefully trigger a
>> > >>>lower rate, thus potentially avoiding the need to block admissions.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>and the tunnel egress should
>> > >>>>        use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-marking).
>> > >>>There are no modes for an RFC6040 egress. Modes are only for the
>> > >>>ingress.
>> > >>OK, noted. I did know that really, I was being careless.
>> > >>
>> > >>>The important point is not what the tunnel egress does (assuming the
>> > >>>arrangement in the Fig below), but that the PCN egress doesn't zero
>> > >>>the outer ECN field.
>> > >>Indeed...
>> > >>
>> > >>>>Note that
>> > >>>>        this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not compatible
>> > with
>> > >>>the
>> > >>>>        experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].
>> > >>>s/this/PCN marking on interior nodes/
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>     In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be used
>> > unless
>> > >>>>     specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of
>> > tunneling
>> > >>>>     and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress nodes.
>> > That
>> > >>>is,
>> > >>>>     any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-domain as
>> > >>>>     illustrated in the following figure:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>                  ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>> > >>>>                 .   ,--------.                   ,--------.    .
>> > >>>>                .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-  |_   .
>> > >>>>                .  / | ingress |                   | egress | \  .
>> > >>>>                 .|  '---------'                   '--------'  |.
>> > >>>>                  | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .|
>> > >>>>             ,--------.                                     ,------
>> > --.
>> > >>>>       _____| Tunnel  |                                     |
>> > Tunnel
>> > >>>|____
>> > >>>>            | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - |
>> > Egress |
>> > >>>>            '---------'                                     '------
>> > --'
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>               Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN actions
>> > >>>>"
>> > >>>nice ASCII art.
>> > >>Thanks :)
>> > >>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>I hope this captures all the key elements from the discussion.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards to
>> > >>>updating
>> > >>>>RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be dependent on
>> > it
>> > >>>as
>> > >>>>well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a
>> > standalone
>> > >>>>section:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>"Section N. Effect on baseline encoding
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01 codepoint was
>> > >>>for use
>> > >>>>in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such
>> > experiments.
>> > >>>This
>> > >>>>document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning.
>> > Consequently
>> > >>>this
>> > >>>>document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01 codepoint
>> > for
>> > >>>>experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept the risk
>> > >>>that
>> > >>>>PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be
>> > compatible
>> > >>>with
>> > >>>>their experiment."
>> > >>>It would be dangerous for me to respond to this now - I'm too tired
>> > >>>to think straight. But my gut feeling is that the wording should
>> > lean
>> > >>>more towards "updates", and less towards appearing to encourage more
>> > >>>experimentation, which would run counter to interoperability - the
>> > >>>raison d'etre of a standards body.
>> > >>OK, I can probably highlight that we are not recommending people
>> > start
>> > >>experiments, but if they are already using the EXP codepoint for
>> > anything
>> > >>else they need to be aware of this clash...
>> > >>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>Two inline responses to Michael at the end
>> > >>>One from me too...
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>Toby
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>-----Original Message-----
>> > >>>>>From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> > >>>Of
>> > >>>>>Toby Moncaster
>> > >>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
>> > >>>>>To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
>> > >>>>>Cc: pcn@ietf.org
>> > >>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on this
>> > >>>>>draft:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively updates
>> > >>>>>RFC5696
>> > >>>>>and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on
>> > >>>their
>> > >>>>>own
>> > >>>>>(which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an experiment!).
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline
>> > >>>which is
>> > >>>>>that
>> > >>>>>this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see it
>> > we
>> > >>>are
>> > >>>>>always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance I am
>> > >>>not
>> > >>>>>sure
>> > >>>>>if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding
>> > being
>> > >>>>>dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>Of course we could always revive the option we discussed, where we
>> > >>>>>obsolete
>> > >>>>>RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft
>> > >>>(which
>> > >>>>>could
>> > >>>>>then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>Thoughts anyone?
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>Toby
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>> > >>>>>>From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
>> > >>>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
>> > >>>>>>To: Michael Menth
>> > >>>>>>Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
>> > >>>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>Michael,
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>Hi all,
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest a
>> > >>>>>>>slight rewording:
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>Handling of ECN traffic
>> > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not sharing a
>> > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
>> > >>>>>>>      - no action needed
>> > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
>> > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
>> > >>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-compatible
>> > >>>DSCP
>> > >>>>>>>in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
>> > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP and
>> > >>>egress
>> > >>>>>>>re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
>> > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-PCN
>> > in
>> > >>>the
>> > >>>>>>>outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns of
>> > >>>ECN
>> > >>>>>>>for this traffic within the PCN domain.
>> > >>>>>>We ought to recommend one:
>> > >>>>>>#2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain
>> > >>>extent.
>> > >>>>>>THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of DSCPs
>> > >>>(e.g.
>> > >>>>>>MPLS or Ethernet).
>> > >>>>>>#1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the same.
>> > >>>So
>> > >>>>>>#1 can be chucked.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
>> > >>>>>>>      - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN
>> > >>>field of
>> > >>>>>>>PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
>> > >>>>>>Not recommended
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
>> > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
>> > >>>>>>>ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
>> > >>>>>>recommended
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver has
>> > >>>>>>>indicated to receive PCN marks
>> > >>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
>> > >>>but
>> > >>>>>>>the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before decapsulation
>> > >>>>>>>according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn
>> > >>>ECT(0)
>> > >>>>>>>into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
>> > >>>>>>Good point.
>> > >>>>>>This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only scheme.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>Another two questions
>> > >>>>>>>* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is
>> > >>>subject
>> > >>>>>>>to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This seems
>> > >>>to be
>> > >>>>>>>a similar issue.
>> > >>>>>>Similar to what?
>> > >>>>What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the DSCP of
>> > an
>> > >>>>arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet, should that
>> > >>>change
>> > >>>>be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to get
>> > rather
>> > >>>>obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of suitable
>> > >>>DSCPs for
>> > >>>>PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an
>> > existing
>> > >>>DSCP
>> > >>>>providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an operator
>> > >>>chooses
>> > >>>>to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so. If I
>> > >>>recall
>> > >>>>right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains
>> > anyway...
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
>> > >>>>>>>interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN semantics?
>> > >>>Have
>> > >>>>>>>we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
>> > >>>>>>Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
>> > >>>>Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need to
>> > state
>> > >>>this
>> > >>>>anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-domain.
>> > IN
>> > >>>>appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a marking
>> > >>>behaviour for
>> > >>>>use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues
>> > >>>Given we are talking about e2e ECN support across a PCN domain, it
>> > >>>would do no harm to reinforce the idea that a DSCP cannot even be
>> > >>>considered PCN-compatible when it is outside a PCN domain - it has
>> > >>>its usual scheulding PHB, but its congestion marking behaviour is
>> > the
>> > >>>ECN default, not PCN.
>> > >>Would adding the following (in a suitable place) suffice?:
>> > >>
>> > >>"PCN is in effect a congestion marking behaviour for use with
>> > realtime
>> > >>traffic in a controlled domain. As such, within the PCN-domain, PCN
>> > marking
>> > >>replaces ECN marking for any PCN-enabled DSCPs. Outside the PCN-
>> > domain, ECN
>> > >>remains the default behaviour for all DSCPs."
>> > >>
>> > >>Toby
>> > >>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Bob
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>Bob
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>Best wishes,
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>      Michael
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>--
>> > >>>>>>>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>> > >>>>>>>University of Tuebingen
>> > >>>>>>>Faculty of Science
>> > >>>>>>>Department of Computer Science
>> > >>>>>>>Chair of Communication Networks
>> > >>>>>>>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>> > >>>>>>>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>> > >>>>>>>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>> > >>>>>>>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>> > >>>>>>>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>> > >>>>>>________________________________________________________________
>> > >>>>>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
>> > >>>>>_______________________________________________
>> > >>>>>PCN mailing list
>> > >>>>>PCN@ietf.org
>> > >>>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>> > >>>________________________________________________________________
>> > >>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
>> > >
>> > >--
>> > >Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>> > >University of Tuebingen
>> > >Faculty of Science
>> > >Department of Computer Science
>> > >Chair of Communication Networks
>> > >Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>> > >phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>> > >fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>> > >mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>> > >http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>> >
>> > ________________________________________________________________
>> > Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
>
>________________________________________________________________
>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
>
>_______________________________________________
>PCN mailing list
>PCN@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From philip.eardley@bt.com  Mon Apr 18 01:43:20 2011
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <slblake@petri-meat.com>, <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:43:13 +0100
Thread-Topic: [PCN] New version: draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05 (start abbreviated WGLC?)
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Looks good,
Best wishes,
phil

-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve=
n Blake
Sent: 15 April 2011 05:33
To: Georgios Karagiannis
Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] New version: draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05 (star=
t abbreviated WGLC?)

On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 17:32 +0200, Georgios Karagiannis wrote:

> Hi all
>=20
> I have just submitted draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05, see below.=20
>=20
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05=
.tx
> t
>=20
> I have used all provided comments, including comments that were provided =
by
> Gorry Fairhust on a paper version of the pcn encoding draft. In the
> attachment of this email I am including a pdf (05) version of the draft,
> which includes track changes. These track changes show how I have worked =
out
> the comments provided by Gorry Fairhust.
>=20
> Steve and/or Scott shall we start an abbreviated WGLC on
> draft-ietf-pcn-encoding-comparison-05?

Thanks Georgios.

This begins a one-week WGLC on this draft, to conclude next Friday April
22.  Please send comments to the list, and don't forget the WGLC for
draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03.


Regards,

// Steve

_______________________________________________
PCN mailing list
PCN@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From slblake@petri-meat.com  Tue Apr 26 20:35:43 2011
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On Wed, 2011-04-06 at 09:56 -0400, Steven Blake wrote:

> This begins the WGLC for 
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
> 
> to end Wednesday, April 20.  Please send comments to the list.

Georgios, I see rough consensus to make the set of edits proposed on the
list.  Please do so, and we will forward the draft to the IESG.

Thanks to everyone who commented.


Regards,

// Steve


From slblake@petri-meat.com  Tue Apr 26 20:36:37 2011
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On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 09:43 +0100, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:

> Looks good,
> Best wishes,
> phil

Ok, let's ship it.


Regards,

// Steve


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Tue Apr 26 22:21:11 2011
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Hi Steve

Thanks! I will do so!

Best regards,
Georgios

On 4/27/2011, "Steven Blake" <slblake@petri-meat.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 2011-04-06 at 09:56 -0400, Steven Blake wrote:
>
>> This begins the WGLC for
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
>>
>> to end Wednesday, April 20.  Please send comments to the list.
>
>Georgios, I see rough consensus to make the set of edits proposed on the
>list.  Please do so, and we will forward the draft to the IESG.
>
>Thanks to everyone who commented.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>// Steve
>
>_______________________________________________
>PCN mailing list
>PCN@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Tue Apr 26 22:22:27 2011
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Hi Steve

Thanks! I will do so!

Best regards,
Georgios



On 4/27/2011, "Steven Blake" <slblake@petri-meat.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 09:43 +0100, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:
>
>> Looks good,
>> Best wishes,
>> phil
>
>Ok, let's ship it.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>// Steve

From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Wed Apr 27 13:16:17 2011
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To: "Steven Blake" <slblake@petri-meat.com>, "pcn" <pcn@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 20:16:12 +0000
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
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Subject: [PCN] submitted draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-04
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Hi Steve, Hi all

I have worked out all comments that I received during the WGLC and
submitted draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-04, see URL:

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-04.txt


Best regards,
Georgios

On 4/27/2011, "Steven Blake" <slblake@petri-meat.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 2011-04-06 at 09:56 -0400, Steven Blake wrote:
>
>> This begins the WGLC for
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-03
>>
>> to end Wednesday, April 20.  Please send comments to the list.
>
>Georgios, I see rough consensus to make the set of edits proposed on the
>list.  Please do so, and we will forward the draft to the IESG.
>
>Thanks to everyone who commented.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>// Steve
>
>_______________________________________________
>PCN mailing list
>PCN@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
