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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
To: "'Bob Briscoe'" <bob.briscoe@bt.com>
References: <4D9448F9.7040309@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <002e01cbef88$b1cc7b70$15657250$@com> <4D94EF65.20001@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <4D958E90.4060103@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <201104011222.p31CMCas029062@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> <003e01cbf074$d2042270$760c6750$@com> <000c01cbfa92$38da9750$aa8fc5f0$@com> <201104150314.p3F3E8HU001775@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> <000c01cbfb47$8c8ef520$a5acdf60$@com> <4DA81828.4090002@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <201104151450.p3FEoiab003742@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> <000901cbfc13$ee81e720$cb85b560$@com> <201104161105.p3GB57Iv007037@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <201104161105.p3GB57Iv007037@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 10:23:09 +0100
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Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696
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I'll get back to this in the next couple of days and try and release an
updated draft early next week... We had more or less converged on what text
to include in the new version.

Meanwhile, can the working group give their views on what should happen
regarding RFC5696. As I see it there are 3 options:

1) have this new RFC update it, but that leaves it as a dead document (in
effect, since there will be contradictory definitions for the 01 codepoint)
2) release a bis version of RFC5696 with the EXP codepoint fixed as having
to be used for carrying a PCN marking state, and with any other tweaks we
think of
3) combine the two by putting in a section in this document about how to use
it in single marking schemes (which will take quite a bit of wordsmithing).

I personally favour option 2 as it is the cleanest and allows us to keep
open the greatest range of future marking schemes. Option 1 is easy, but
leaves some potential issues (for instance it will mean there is no
standards support for anything similar to the PSDM scheme which Michael and
others seem to still be interested in). Option 3 will take a lot of work,
but would allow RFC5696 to become obsolete (so is also quite clean from a
standards viewpoint).

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> Sent: 16 April 2011 12:05
> To: Toby Moncaster
> Cc: 'Michael Menth'; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> 
> Toby,
> 
> At 09:54 16/04/2011, Toby Moncaster wrote:
> >Bob, Michael,
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> > > Sent: 15 April 2011 15:51
> > > To: Michael Menth
> > > Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > >
> > > Toby, Michael,
> > >
> > > 2/ e2e ECN appendix
> > > Now that I'm awake, I've realised the wording of the headings for
> the
> > > four options we are discussing needs to be completely reframed.
> > >
> > > End nodes don't ask for PCN control, they ask for admission
> control.
> > > An operator chooses what mechanism to use for admission control
> over
> > > their segment of the path, and PCN is just one possible mechanism
> > > they might choose.
> > >
> > > At the outset, we need to list the two main ways that end-nodes
> tell
> > > the network that they need admission control, which in turn makes
> the
> > > PCN-ingress remark their traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP:
> > >
> > > A) flow signalling associates a filterspec with a need for
> admission
> > > control (e.g. thru RSVP or some equivalent message down from a SIP
> > > server to the ingress), and the PCN ingress remarks traffic
> matching
> > > that filterspec to a PCN-compatible DSCP, as its chosen admission
> > > control mechanism.
> > >
> > > B) Traffic arrives with a DSCP that implies it requires admission
> > > control such as VOICE-ADMIT [RFC5865] or Interactive Real-Time,
> > > Broadcast TV when used for video on demand, and Multimedia
> > > Conferencing [RFC4594, RFC5865].
> >
> >You need to re-read the appendix of RFC5696 where we discuss DSCP-
> related
> >issues.
> 
> I did before writing that email.
> 
> >I am very unkeen to add so much extra text to what should be a simple
> >encoding document. This will end up making the appendix nearly as long
> as
> >the main document. I also have concerns that this sort of thing is
> really
> >architectural. This document isn't about telling operators which of
> their
> >traffic they should be doing admission control on.
> >
> >I would rather we just put a simple paragraph saying what you have in
> your
> >intro to this point:
> >
> >" End nodes don't ask for PCN control, they ask for admission control.
> >  An operator chooses what mechanism to use for admission control over
> >  their segment of the path, and PCN is just one possible mechanism
> >  they might choose."
> 
> We need to provide some explanation for why we suddenly started
> talking about these four cases. So we do need to say what we mean by
> end-nodes asking for admission control. It would be nice to cite
> something that explains, but we don't have anything, because RFC5865
> on DSCPs for admission contrl went through after all the PCN RFCs so
> far.
> 
> So I think we have to treat this appendix as the latest definitive
> word on the two mains ways that end points might use to signal that
> they want admission control, even tho it's not really relevant to
> this doc. The only alternative would be to update the PCN
> architecture RFC, and I don't want to go there.
> 
> > > We need to define two phrases, such as:
> > > * "Traffic that requires admission control" as traffic that uses
> > > either method A or B.
> > > * "Traffic that does not require admission control" as traffic that
> > > uses neither of methods A or B.
> >
> >OK, happy to have those definitions, but we are going to find
> ourselves
> >tying knots as we try and talk about traffic that doesn't need
> admission
> >control but which shares the same DSCP...
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > > >>>>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a
> PCN-
> > > >>>compatible
> > > >>>>     DSCP:
> > > >>>s/sharing a PCN-compatible DSCP/using a PCN-compatible DSCP on
> > > >>>arrival at the PCN ingress/
> > >
> > > On second thoughts, we should head this item
> > > "ECN capable traffic that does not require admission control but
> > > carries a DSCP that the PCN-ingress is using for PCN-capable
> traffic."
> > >
> > > HOWEVER, I don't think this case is possible. If traffic arrives
> with
> > > a DSCP that would be used for PCN, it is signalling that it
> requires
> > > admission control [RFC5865].
> >
> >BUT some of that traffic may in fact be automatically admitted
> (because of
> >policy), hence it wouldn't use PCN...
> >
> >My own view is this whole case needn't be mentioned because the
> traffic is
> >neither ECN nor PCN. If we were to list all negative cases we would
> get an
> >even longer appendix!
> 
> Well, the traffic *is* ECN and it is confusable with PCN traffic. As
> I just said in my mail to Michael, it would only be confusible with
> PCN traffic if the PCN operator decided to use weird DSCPs for PCN.
> 
> How about not listing this case as if it is normal, but instead
> mention it as a 'footnote' to this appendix, as an abnormal case to
> be avoided if possible, perhaps:
> 
> "It is strongly RECOMMENDED that the advice in A.1 of the PCN
> baseline encoding [RFC5696] is followed when choosing which DSCP
> indicates PCN-compatible traffic. Otherwise nodes within the PCN
> region will mistake traffic using e2e ECN for PCN-traffic if it also
> happens to use the chosen DSCP. To avoid this confusion, the PCN
> ingress would have to remark this traffic to another DSCP, causing
> further complication and confusion downstream."
> 
> > >
> > > >>>>     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver
> indicates
> > > >>>desire
> > > >>>>     to see PCN marks:
> > >
> > > We should head this item
> > > "Traffic that requires admission control, where the e2e transport
> > > somehow indicates it wants to see PCN marks."
> >
> >s/"somehow indicates"/"signals that"
> 
> If you want.
> I was trying to avoid being prescriptive about how it might be done.
> 
> >I'll try and unravel all the changes and send a revised version by
> Monday...
> >It won't necessarily include all the suggestions (see the inline
> comment at
> >the top), and there is a chance I may miss a couple!
> 
> Yes, when I prepared the email you just replied to, I tried to pull
> together everything that had been said, so I hope that posting will
> be useful for you.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> >Toby
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > >>>>The
> > > >>>PCN-
> > > >>>>        egress should not zero the ECN field,
> > > >>>Don't agree. ECN should never leak into PCN, but PCN might be OK
> to
> > > >>>leak to ECN receiver.
> > > >>I'm not allowing ECN to leak into PCN. I am (in limited
> > > circumstances)
> > > >>allowing the PCN-domain to over-write the ECN information and
> hence
> > > leak PCN
> > > >>information to the receiver.
> > > >>
> > > >>>Reasoning: admission of a flow should only depend on PCN marking
> > > >>>within the PCN region. It shouldn't depend on ECN marking from
> > > queues
> > > >>>outside the PCN region, which will not have been configured to
> give
> > > >>>good signals at the right load levels.
> > > >>Oh, I think I see your point. RFC6040 tunnels will set the ECN of
> the
> > > outer
> > > >>header to whatever is in the inner header. BUT you are forgetting
> > > that the
> > > >>default behaviour of the PCN-ingress is to clear whatever is in
> the
> > > outer
> > > >>header and set it to 10 (if the traffic is PCN) or 00 (if the
> traffic
> > > is
> > > >>not-PCN)
> > > >
> > > >Mentioning that would be helpful. Also we need to remember that
> but
> > > >often forget about it and then we wonder about the text ...
> > > >
> > > >Regards,
> > > >
> > > >     Michael
> > > >
> > > >>>The reverse argument seems less likely to apply to leaking PCN
> to
> > > >>>receiver, because any decent level of PCN will usefully trigger
> a
> > > >>>lower rate, thus potentially avoiding the need to block
> admissions.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>and the tunnel egress should
> > > >>>>        use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-marking).
> > > >>>There are no modes for an RFC6040 egress. Modes are only for the
> > > >>>ingress.
> > > >>OK, noted. I did know that really, I was being careless.
> > > >>
> > > >>>The important point is not what the tunnel egress does (assuming
> the
> > > >>>arrangement in the Fig below), but that the PCN egress doesn't
> zero
> > > >>>the outer ECN field.
> > > >>Indeed...
> > > >>
> > > >>>>Note that
> > > >>>>        this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not
> compatible
> > > with
> > > >>>the
> > > >>>>        experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].
> > > >>>s/this/PCN marking on interior nodes/
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>     In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be used
> > > unless
> > > >>>>     specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of
> > > tunneling
> > > >>>>     and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress nodes.
> > > That
> > > >>>is,
> > > >>>>     any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-domain
> as
> > > >>>>     illustrated in the following figure:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>                  ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .
> .
> > > >>>>                 .   ,--------.                   ,--------.
> .
> > > >>>>                .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-  |_
> .
> > > >>>>                .  / | ingress |                   | egress | \
> .
> > > >>>>                 .|  '---------'                   '--------'
> |.
> > > >>>>                  | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> .|
> > > >>>>             ,--------.                                     ,--
> ----
> > > --.
> > > >>>>       _____| Tunnel  |                                     |
> > > Tunnel
> > > >>>|____
> > > >>>>            | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - |
> > > Egress |
> > > >>>>            '---------'                                     '--
> ----
> > > --'
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>               Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN
> actions
> > > >>>>"
> > > >>>nice ASCII art.
> > > >>Thanks :)
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>I hope this captures all the key elements from the discussion.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards to
> > > >>>updating
> > > >>>>RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be dependent
> on
> > > it
> > > >>>as
> > > >>>>well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a
> > > standalone
> > > >>>>section:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>"Section N. Effect on baseline encoding
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01 codepoint
> was
> > > >>>for use
> > > >>>>in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such
> > > experiments.
> > > >>>This
> > > >>>>document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning.
> > > Consequently
> > > >>>this
> > > >>>>document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01
> codepoint
> > > for
> > > >>>>experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept the
> risk
> > > >>>that
> > > >>>>PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be
> > > compatible
> > > >>>with
> > > >>>>their experiment."
> > > >>>It would be dangerous for me to respond to this now - I'm too
> tired
> > > >>>to think straight. But my gut feeling is that the wording should
> > > lean
> > > >>>more towards "updates", and less towards appearing to encourage
> more
> > > >>>experimentation, which would run counter to interoperability -
> the
> > > >>>raison d'etre of a standards body.
> > > >>OK, I can probably highlight that we are not recommending people
> > > start
> > > >>experiments, but if they are already using the EXP codepoint for
> > > anything
> > > >>else they need to be aware of this clash...
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>Two inline responses to Michael at the end
> > > >>>One from me too...
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>Toby
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>>>>From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf
> > > >>>Of
> > > >>>>>Toby Moncaster
> > > >>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
> > > >>>>>To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
> > > >>>>>Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > >>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on
> this
> > > >>>>>draft:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively
> updates
> > > >>>>>RFC5696
> > > >>>>>and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on
> > > >>>their
> > > >>>>>own
> > > >>>>>(which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an
> experiment!).
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline
> > > >>>which is
> > > >>>>>that
> > > >>>>>this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see
> it
> > > we
> > > >>>are
> > > >>>>>always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance
> I am
> > > >>>not
> > > >>>>>sure
> > > >>>>>if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding
> > > being
> > > >>>>>dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>Of course we could always revive the option we discussed,
> where we
> > > >>>>>obsolete
> > > >>>>>RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft
> > > >>>(which
> > > >>>>>could
> > > >>>>>then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>Thoughts anyone?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>Toby
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>>>>>From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> > > >>>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
> > > >>>>>>To: Michael Menth
> > > >>>>>>Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> > > >>>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>Michael,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>Hi all,
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest
> a
> > > >>>>>>>slight rewording:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>Handling of ECN traffic
> > > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not
> sharing a
> > > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > >>>>>>>      - no action needed
> > > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
> > > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > >>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-
> compatible
> > > >>>DSCP
> > > >>>>>>>in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
> > > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP
> and
> > > >>>egress
> > > >>>>>>>re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-
> PCN
> > > in
> > > >>>the
> > > >>>>>>>outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns
> of
> > > >>>ECN
> > > >>>>>>>for this traffic within the PCN domain.
> > > >>>>>>We ought to recommend one:
> > > >>>>>>#2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain
> > > >>>extent.
> > > >>>>>>THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of
> DSCPs
> > > >>>(e.g.
> > > >>>>>>MPLS or Ethernet).
> > > >>>>>>#1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the
> same.
> > > >>>So
> > > >>>>>>#1 can be chucked.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
> > > >>>>>>>      - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN
> > > >>>field of
> > > >>>>>>>PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
> > > >>>>>>Not recommended
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
> > > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
> > > >>>>>>>ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
> > > >>>>>>recommended
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver
> has
> > > >>>>>>>indicated to receive PCN marks
> > > >>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible
> DSCP
> > > >>>but
> > > >>>>>>>the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before
> decapsulation
> > > >>>>>>>according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn
> > > >>>ECT(0)
> > > >>>>>>>into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
> > > >>>>>>Good point.
> > > >>>>>>This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only
> scheme.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>Another two questions
> > > >>>>>>>* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is
> > > >>>subject
> > > >>>>>>>to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This
> seems
> > > >>>to be
> > > >>>>>>>a similar issue.
> > > >>>>>>Similar to what?
> > > >>>>What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the
> DSCP of
> > > an
> > > >>>>arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet, should
> that
> > > >>>change
> > > >>>>be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to get
> > > rather
> > > >>>>obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of
> suitable
> > > >>>DSCPs for
> > > >>>>PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an
> > > existing
> > > >>>DSCP
> > > >>>>providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an
> operator
> > > >>>chooses
> > > >>>>to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so. If
> I
> > > >>>recall
> > > >>>>right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains
> > > anyway...
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>>>* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > >>>>>>>interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN
> semantics?
> > > >>>Have
> > > >>>>>>>we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
> > > >>>>>>Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
> > > >>>>Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need to
> > > state
> > > >>>this
> > > >>>>anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-
> domain.
> > > IN
> > > >>>>appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a marking
> > > >>>behaviour for
> > > >>>>use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues
> > > >>>Given we are talking about e2e ECN support across a PCN domain,
> it
> > > >>>would do no harm to reinforce the idea that a DSCP cannot even
> be
> > > >>>considered PCN-compatible when it is outside a PCN domain - it
> has
> > > >>>its usual scheulding PHB, but its congestion marking behaviour
> is
> > > the
> > > >>>ECN default, not PCN.
> > > >>Would adding the following (in a suitable place) suffice?:
> > > >>
> > > >>"PCN is in effect a congestion marking behaviour for use with
> > > realtime
> > > >>traffic in a controlled domain. As such, within the PCN-domain,
> PCN
> > > marking
> > > >>replaces ECN marking for any PCN-enabled DSCPs. Outside the PCN-
> > > domain, ECN
> > > >>remains the default behaviour for all DSCPs."
> > > >>
> > > >>Toby
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Bob
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>Bob
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>Best wishes,
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>      Michael
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>--
> > > >>>>>>>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > >>>>>>>University of Tuebingen
> > > >>>>>>>Faculty of Science
> > > >>>>>>>Department of Computer Science
> > > >>>>>>>Chair of Communication Networks
> > > >>>>>>>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > >>>>>>>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > >>>>>>>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > >>>>>>>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > >>>>>>>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > >
> >>>>>>________________________________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&
> Design
> > > >>>>>_______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>PCN mailing list
> > > >>>>>PCN@ietf.org
> > > >>>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > >>>________________________________________________________________
> > > >>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > >University of Tuebingen
> > > >Faculty of Science
> > > >Department of Computer Science
> > > >Chair of Communication Networks
> > > >Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > >phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > >fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > >mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > >http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________________________
> > > Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design


From philip.eardley@bt.com  Wed May  4 07:13:33 2011
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <toby@moncaster.com>, <bob.briscoe@bt.com>
Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 15:13:27 +0100
Thread-Topic: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696
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Toby

Sorry, i didnt follow all the previous thread. I know there was some discus=
sion on somewhat peripheral issues (from an encoding perspective - as in em=
ails below).
However, I cannot remember the conclusion on the substantial issue, ie what=
 encoding or encodings we want to end up as standardised. Is it:-

         +--------+----------------------------------------------------+
         |        |           Codepoint in ECN field of IP header      |
         |  DSCP  |               <RFC3168 codepoint name>             |
         |        +--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+
         |        | 00 <Not-ECT> | 10 <ECT(0)> | 01 <ECT(1)> | 11 <CE> |
         +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+
         | DSCP n |    Not-PCN   |      NM     |     ThM     |   ETM   |
         +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+

Or, in the case of single marking:

         +--------+----------------------------------------------------+
         |        |           Codepoint in ECN field of IP header      |
         |  DSCP  |               <RFC3168 codepoint name>             |
         |        +--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+
         |        | 00 <Not-ECT> | 10 <ECT(0)> | 01 <ECT(1)> | 11 <CE> |
         +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+
         | DSCP n |    Not-PCN   |      NM     |     illegal |   PM    |
         +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+

Note that 01 =3D EXP doesn't appear.
Is this correct?
Thanks
phil

-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toby =
Moncaster
Sent: 04 May 2011 10:23
To: Briscoe,RJ,Bob,DES8 R
Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696

I'll get back to this in the next couple of days and try and release an
updated draft early next week... We had more or less converged on what text
to include in the new version.

Meanwhile, can the working group give their views on what should happen
regarding RFC5696. As I see it there are 3 options:

1) have this new RFC update it, but that leaves it as a dead document (in
effect, since there will be contradictory definitions for the 01 codepoint)
2) release a bis version of RFC5696 with the EXP codepoint fixed as having
to be used for carrying a PCN marking state, and with any other tweaks we
think of
3) combine the two by putting in a section in this document about how to us=
e
it in single marking schemes (which will take quite a bit of wordsmithing).

I personally favour option 2 as it is the cleanest and allows us to keep
open the greatest range of future marking schemes. Option 1 is easy, but
leaves some potential issues (for instance it will mean there is no
standards support for anything similar to the PSDM scheme which Michael and
others seem to still be interested in). Option 3 will take a lot of work,
but would allow RFC5696 to become obsolete (so is also quite clean from a
standards viewpoint).

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> Sent: 16 April 2011 12:05
> To: Toby Moncaster
> Cc: 'Michael Menth'; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
>
> Toby,
>
> At 09:54 16/04/2011, Toby Moncaster wrote:
> >Bob, Michael,
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> > > Sent: 15 April 2011 15:51
> > > To: Michael Menth
> > > Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > >
> > > Toby, Michael,
> > >
> > > 2/ e2e ECN appendix
> > > Now that I'm awake, I've realised the wording of the headings for
> the
> > > four options we are discussing needs to be completely reframed.
> > >
> > > End nodes don't ask for PCN control, they ask for admission
> control.
> > > An operator chooses what mechanism to use for admission control
> over
> > > their segment of the path, and PCN is just one possible mechanism
> > > they might choose.
> > >
> > > At the outset, we need to list the two main ways that end-nodes
> tell
> > > the network that they need admission control, which in turn makes
> the
> > > PCN-ingress remark their traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP:
> > >
> > > A) flow signalling associates a filterspec with a need for
> admission
> > > control (e.g. thru RSVP or some equivalent message down from a SIP
> > > server to the ingress), and the PCN ingress remarks traffic
> matching
> > > that filterspec to a PCN-compatible DSCP, as its chosen admission
> > > control mechanism.
> > >
> > > B) Traffic arrives with a DSCP that implies it requires admission
> > > control such as VOICE-ADMIT [RFC5865] or Interactive Real-Time,
> > > Broadcast TV when used for video on demand, and Multimedia
> > > Conferencing [RFC4594, RFC5865].
> >
> >You need to re-read the appendix of RFC5696 where we discuss DSCP-
> related
> >issues.
>
> I did before writing that email.
>
> >I am very unkeen to add so much extra text to what should be a simple
> >encoding document. This will end up making the appendix nearly as long
> as
> >the main document. I also have concerns that this sort of thing is
> really
> >architectural. This document isn't about telling operators which of
> their
> >traffic they should be doing admission control on.
> >
> >I would rather we just put a simple paragraph saying what you have in
> your
> >intro to this point:
> >
> >" End nodes don't ask for PCN control, they ask for admission control.
> >  An operator chooses what mechanism to use for admission control over
> >  their segment of the path, and PCN is just one possible mechanism
> >  they might choose."
>
> We need to provide some explanation for why we suddenly started
> talking about these four cases. So we do need to say what we mean by
> end-nodes asking for admission control. It would be nice to cite
> something that explains, but we don't have anything, because RFC5865
> on DSCPs for admission contrl went through after all the PCN RFCs so
> far.
>
> So I think we have to treat this appendix as the latest definitive
> word on the two mains ways that end points might use to signal that
> they want admission control, even tho it's not really relevant to
> this doc. The only alternative would be to update the PCN
> architecture RFC, and I don't want to go there.
>
> > > We need to define two phrases, such as:
> > > * "Traffic that requires admission control" as traffic that uses
> > > either method A or B.
> > > * "Traffic that does not require admission control" as traffic that
> > > uses neither of methods A or B.
> >
> >OK, happy to have those definitions, but we are going to find
> ourselves
> >tying knots as we try and talk about traffic that doesn't need
> admission
> >control but which shares the same DSCP...
>
> [snip]
>
> > > >>>>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a
> PCN-
> > > >>>compatible
> > > >>>>     DSCP:
> > > >>>s/sharing a PCN-compatible DSCP/using a PCN-compatible DSCP on
> > > >>>arrival at the PCN ingress/
> > >
> > > On second thoughts, we should head this item
> > > "ECN capable traffic that does not require admission control but
> > > carries a DSCP that the PCN-ingress is using for PCN-capable
> traffic."
> > >
> > > HOWEVER, I don't think this case is possible. If traffic arrives
> with
> > > a DSCP that would be used for PCN, it is signalling that it
> requires
> > > admission control [RFC5865].
> >
> >BUT some of that traffic may in fact be automatically admitted
> (because of
> >policy), hence it wouldn't use PCN...
> >
> >My own view is this whole case needn't be mentioned because the
> traffic is
> >neither ECN nor PCN. If we were to list all negative cases we would
> get an
> >even longer appendix!
>
> Well, the traffic *is* ECN and it is confusable with PCN traffic. As
> I just said in my mail to Michael, it would only be confusible with
> PCN traffic if the PCN operator decided to use weird DSCPs for PCN.
>
> How about not listing this case as if it is normal, but instead
> mention it as a 'footnote' to this appendix, as an abnormal case to
> be avoided if possible, perhaps:
>
> "It is strongly RECOMMENDED that the advice in A.1 of the PCN
> baseline encoding [RFC5696] is followed when choosing which DSCP
> indicates PCN-compatible traffic. Otherwise nodes within the PCN
> region will mistake traffic using e2e ECN for PCN-traffic if it also
> happens to use the chosen DSCP. To avoid this confusion, the PCN
> ingress would have to remark this traffic to another DSCP, causing
> further complication and confusion downstream."
>
> > >
> > > >>>>     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver
> indicates
> > > >>>desire
> > > >>>>     to see PCN marks:
> > >
> > > We should head this item
> > > "Traffic that requires admission control, where the e2e transport
> > > somehow indicates it wants to see PCN marks."
> >
> >s/"somehow indicates"/"signals that"
>
> If you want.
> I was trying to avoid being prescriptive about how it might be done.
>
> >I'll try and unravel all the changes and send a revised version by
> Monday...
> >It won't necessarily include all the suggestions (see the inline
> comment at
> >the top), and there is a chance I may miss a couple!
>
> Yes, when I prepared the email you just replied to, I tried to pull
> together everything that had been said, so I hope that posting will
> be useful for you.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Bob
>
>
> >Toby
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > >>>>The
> > > >>>PCN-
> > > >>>>        egress should not zero the ECN field,
> > > >>>Don't agree. ECN should never leak into PCN, but PCN might be OK
> to
> > > >>>leak to ECN receiver.
> > > >>I'm not allowing ECN to leak into PCN. I am (in limited
> > > circumstances)
> > > >>allowing the PCN-domain to over-write the ECN information and
> hence
> > > leak PCN
> > > >>information to the receiver.
> > > >>
> > > >>>Reasoning: admission of a flow should only depend on PCN marking
> > > >>>within the PCN region. It shouldn't depend on ECN marking from
> > > queues
> > > >>>outside the PCN region, which will not have been configured to
> give
> > > >>>good signals at the right load levels.
> > > >>Oh, I think I see your point. RFC6040 tunnels will set the ECN of
> the
> > > outer
> > > >>header to whatever is in the inner header. BUT you are forgetting
> > > that the
> > > >>default behaviour of the PCN-ingress is to clear whatever is in
> the
> > > outer
> > > >>header and set it to 10 (if the traffic is PCN) or 00 (if the
> traffic
> > > is
> > > >>not-PCN)
> > > >
> > > >Mentioning that would be helpful. Also we need to remember that
> but
> > > >often forget about it and then we wonder about the text ...
> > > >
> > > >Regards,
> > > >
> > > >     Michael
> > > >
> > > >>>The reverse argument seems less likely to apply to leaking PCN
> to
> > > >>>receiver, because any decent level of PCN will usefully trigger
> a
> > > >>>lower rate, thus potentially avoiding the need to block
> admissions.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>and the tunnel egress should
> > > >>>>        use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-marking).
> > > >>>There are no modes for an RFC6040 egress. Modes are only for the
> > > >>>ingress.
> > > >>OK, noted. I did know that really, I was being careless.
> > > >>
> > > >>>The important point is not what the tunnel egress does (assuming
> the
> > > >>>arrangement in the Fig below), but that the PCN egress doesn't
> zero
> > > >>>the outer ECN field.
> > > >>Indeed...
> > > >>
> > > >>>>Note that
> > > >>>>        this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not
> compatible
> > > with
> > > >>>the
> > > >>>>        experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].
> > > >>>s/this/PCN marking on interior nodes/
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>     In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be used
> > > unless
> > > >>>>     specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of
> > > tunneling
> > > >>>>     and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress nodes.
> > > That
> > > >>>is,
> > > >>>>     any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-domain
> as
> > > >>>>     illustrated in the following figure:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>                  ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .
> .
> > > >>>>                 .   ,--------.                   ,--------.
> .
> > > >>>>                .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-  |_
> .
> > > >>>>                .  / | ingress |                   | egress | \
> .
> > > >>>>                 .|  '---------'                   '--------'
> |.
> > > >>>>                  | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> .|
> > > >>>>             ,--------.                                     ,--
> ----
> > > --.
> > > >>>>       _____| Tunnel  |                                     |
> > > Tunnel
> > > >>>|____
> > > >>>>            | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - |
> > > Egress |
> > > >>>>            '---------'                                     '--
> ----
> > > --'
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>               Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN
> actions
> > > >>>>"
> > > >>>nice ASCII art.
> > > >>Thanks :)
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>I hope this captures all the key elements from the discussion.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards to
> > > >>>updating
> > > >>>>RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be dependent
> on
> > > it
> > > >>>as
> > > >>>>well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a
> > > standalone
> > > >>>>section:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>"Section N. Effect on baseline encoding
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01 codepoint
> was
> > > >>>for use
> > > >>>>in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such
> > > experiments.
> > > >>>This
> > > >>>>document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning.
> > > Consequently
> > > >>>this
> > > >>>>document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01
> codepoint
> > > for
> > > >>>>experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept the
> risk
> > > >>>that
> > > >>>>PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be
> > > compatible
> > > >>>with
> > > >>>>their experiment."
> > > >>>It would be dangerous for me to respond to this now - I'm too
> tired
> > > >>>to think straight. But my gut feeling is that the wording should
> > > lean
> > > >>>more towards "updates", and less towards appearing to encourage
> more
> > > >>>experimentation, which would run counter to interoperability -
> the
> > > >>>raison d'etre of a standards body.
> > > >>OK, I can probably highlight that we are not recommending people
> > > start
> > > >>experiments, but if they are already using the EXP codepoint for
> > > anything
> > > >>else they need to be aware of this clash...
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>Two inline responses to Michael at the end
> > > >>>One from me too...
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>Toby
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>>>>From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf
> > > >>>Of
> > > >>>>>Toby Moncaster
> > > >>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
> > > >>>>>To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
> > > >>>>>Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > >>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do on
> this
> > > >>>>>draft:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively
> updates
> > > >>>>>RFC5696
> > > >>>>>and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are on
> > > >>>their
> > > >>>>>own
> > > >>>>>(which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an
> experiment!).
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve baseline
> > > >>>which is
> > > >>>>>that
> > > >>>>>this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I see
> it
> > > we
> > > >>>are
> > > >>>>>always going to have a slightly messy situation. For instance
> I am
> > > >>>not
> > > >>>>>sure
> > > >>>>>if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1 encoding
> > > being
> > > >>>>>dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>Of course we could always revive the option we discussed,
> where we
> > > >>>>>obsolete
> > > >>>>>RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this draft
> > > >>>(which
> > > >>>>>could
> > > >>>>>then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>Thoughts anyone?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>Toby
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>>>>>From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> > > >>>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
> > > >>>>>>To: Michael Menth
> > > >>>>>>Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> > > >>>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>Michael,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>Hi all,
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I suggest
> a
> > > >>>>>>>slight rewording:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>Handling of ECN traffic
> > > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not
> sharing a
> > > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > >>>>>>>      - no action needed
> > > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing a
> > > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > >>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-
> compatible
> > > >>>DSCP
> > > >>>>>>>in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
> > > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP
> and
> > > >>>egress
> > > >>>>>>>re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with not-
> PCN
> > > in
> > > >>>the
> > > >>>>>>>outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this turns
> of
> > > >>>ECN
> > > >>>>>>>for this traffic within the PCN domain.
> > > >>>>>>We ought to recommend one:
> > > >>>>>>#2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain
> > > >>>extent.
> > > >>>>>>THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of
> DSCPs
> > > >>>(e.g.
> > > >>>>>>MPLS or Ethernet).
> > > >>>>>>#1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the
> same.
> > > >>>So
> > > >>>>>>#1 can be chucked.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
> > > >>>>>>>      - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros ECN
> > > >>>field of
> > > >>>>>>>PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
> > > >>>>>>Not recommended
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
> > > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress zeros
> > > >>>>>>>ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
> > > >>>>>>recommended
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the receiver
> has
> > > >>>>>>>indicated to receive PCN marks
> > > >>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible
> DSCP
> > > >>>but
> > > >>>>>>>the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before
> decapsulation
> > > >>>>>>>according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn
> > > >>>ECT(0)
> > > >>>>>>>into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
> > > >>>>>>Good point.
> > > >>>>>>This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only
> scheme.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>Another two questions
> > > >>>>>>>* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is
> > > >>>subject
> > > >>>>>>>to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This
> seems
> > > >>>to be
> > > >>>>>>>a similar issue.
> > > >>>>>>Similar to what?
> > > >>>>What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the
> DSCP of
> > > an
> > > >>>>arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet, should
> that
> > > >>>change
> > > >>>>be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to get
> > > rather
> > > >>>>obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of
> suitable
> > > >>>DSCPs for
> > > >>>>PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an
> > > existing
> > > >>>DSCP
> > > >>>>providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an
> operator
> > > >>>chooses
> > > >>>>to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so. If
> I
> > > >>>recall
> > > >>>>right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains
> > > anyway...
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>>>* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > >>>>>>>interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN
> semantics?
> > > >>>Have
> > > >>>>>>>we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
> > > >>>>>>Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to check.
> > > >>>>Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need to
> > > state
> > > >>>this
> > > >>>>anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-
> domain.
> > > IN
> > > >>>>appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a marking
> > > >>>behaviour for
> > > >>>>use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues
> > > >>>Given we are talking about e2e ECN support across a PCN domain,
> it
> > > >>>would do no harm to reinforce the idea that a DSCP cannot even
> be
> > > >>>considered PCN-compatible when it is outside a PCN domain - it
> has
> > > >>>its usual scheulding PHB, but its congestion marking behaviour
> is
> > > the
> > > >>>ECN default, not PCN.
> > > >>Would adding the following (in a suitable place) suffice?:
> > > >>
> > > >>"PCN is in effect a congestion marking behaviour for use with
> > > realtime
> > > >>traffic in a controlled domain. As such, within the PCN-domain,
> PCN
> > > marking
> > > >>replaces ECN marking for any PCN-enabled DSCPs. Outside the PCN-
> > > domain, ECN
> > > >>remains the default behaviour for all DSCPs."
> > > >>
> > > >>Toby
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Bob
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>Bob
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>Best wishes,
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>      Michael
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>--
> > > >>>>>>>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > >>>>>>>University of Tuebingen
> > > >>>>>>>Faculty of Science
> > > >>>>>>>Department of Computer Science
> > > >>>>>>>Chair of Communication Networks
> > > >>>>>>>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > >>>>>>>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > >>>>>>>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > >>>>>>>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > >>>>>>>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > >
> >>>>>>________________________________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&
> Design
> > > >>>>>_______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>PCN mailing list
> > > >>>>>PCN@ietf.org
> > > >>>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > >>>________________________________________________________________
> > > >>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&  Design
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > >University of Tuebingen
> > > >Faculty of Science
> > > >Department of Computer Science
> > > >Chair of Communication Networks
> > > >Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > >phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > >fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > >mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > >http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________________________
> > > Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design

_______________________________________________
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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
To: <philip.eardley@bt.com>, <bob.briscoe@bt.com>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> Sent: 04 May 2011 15:13
> To: toby@moncaster.com; bob.briscoe@bt.com
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696
> 
> Toby
> 
> Sorry, i didnt follow all the previous thread. I know there was some
> discussion on somewhat peripheral issues (from an encoding perspective
> - as in emails below).
> However, I cannot remember the conclusion on the substantial issue, ie
> what encoding or encodings we want to end up as standardised. Is it:-
> 
>          +--------+----------------------------------------------------
> +
>          |        |           Codepoint in ECN field of IP header
> |
>          |  DSCP  |               <RFC3168 codepoint name>
> |
>          |        +--------------+-------------+-------------+---------
> +
>          |        | 00 <Not-ECT> | 10 <ECT(0)> | 01 <ECT(1)> | 11 <CE>
> |
>          +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------
> +
>          | DSCP n |    Not-PCN   |      NM     |     ThM     |   ETM
> |
>          +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------
> +
> 
> 

That looks right


Or, in the case of single marking:
> 
>          +--------+----------------------------------------------------
> +
>          |        |           Codepoint in ECN field of IP header
> |
>          |  DSCP  |               <RFC3168 codepoint name>
> |
>          |        +--------------+-------------+-------------+---------
> +
>          |        | 00 <Not-ECT> | 10 <ECT(0)> | 01 <ECT(1)> | 11 <CE>
> |
>          +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------
> +
>          | DSCP n |    Not-PCN   |      NM     |     illegal |   PM
> |
>          +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------
> +
> 

That seems right. In theory you could treat the "illegal" case as PM as
well... In fact, I would probably put it in with a warning something like

"In the basic encoding, the 01 codepoint is illegal and should only appear
if a PCN node is misconfigured. It is reasonable for the PCN-egress-node to
treat the 
01 codepoint as indicating PM in the same manner as 11, but it SHOULD raise
a management alarm."


> Note that 01 = EXP doesn't appear.

Indeed, and that was my suggested bis to RFC5696.

It looks like we are going to have to create a completely new combined
document after all. Certainly that is the cleanest option and allows us to
remove any confusions. It might take another complete cycle to do it though
which is not ideal :(

In order to handle the two distinct cases you set out above I would suggest
that such a document has two parts: a basic encoding (for single marking
schemes) and a full encoding (for dual marking schemes). This would make the
choice of encoding a configuration option similar to the option of whether
to turn on the two marking schemes or not. 

Question - would this require any changes to any other documents?

Toby

> Is this correct?
> Thanks
> phil
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Toby Moncaster
> Sent: 04 May 2011 10:23
> To: Briscoe,RJ,Bob,DES8 R
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696
> 
> I'll get back to this in the next couple of days and try and release an
> updated draft early next week... We had more or less converged on what
> text
> to include in the new version.
> 
> Meanwhile, can the working group give their views on what should happen
> regarding RFC5696. As I see it there are 3 options:
> 
> 1) have this new RFC update it, but that leaves it as a dead document
> (in
> effect, since there will be contradictory definitions for the 01
> codepoint)
> 2) release a bis version of RFC5696 with the EXP codepoint fixed as
> having
> to be used for carrying a PCN marking state, and with any other tweaks
> we
> think of
> 3) combine the two by putting in a section in this document about how
> to use
> it in single marking schemes (which will take quite a bit of
> wordsmithing).
> 
> I personally favour option 2 as it is the cleanest and allows us to
> keep
> open the greatest range of future marking schemes. Option 1 is easy,
> but
> leaves some potential issues (for instance it will mean there is no
> standards support for anything similar to the PSDM scheme which Michael
> and
> others seem to still be interested in). Option 3 will take a lot of
> work,
> but would allow RFC5696 to become obsolete (so is also quite clean from
> a
> standards viewpoint).
> 
> Toby
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> > Sent: 16 April 2011 12:05
> > To: Toby Moncaster
> > Cc: 'Michael Menth'; pcn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> >
> > Toby,
> >
> > At 09:54 16/04/2011, Toby Moncaster wrote:
> > >Bob, Michael,
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> > > > Sent: 15 April 2011 15:51
> > > > To: Michael Menth
> > > > Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > > >
> > > > Toby, Michael,
> > > >
> > > > 2/ e2e ECN appendix
> > > > Now that I'm awake, I've realised the wording of the headings for
> > the
> > > > four options we are discussing needs to be completely reframed.
> > > >
> > > > End nodes don't ask for PCN control, they ask for admission
> > control.
> > > > An operator chooses what mechanism to use for admission control
> > over
> > > > their segment of the path, and PCN is just one possible mechanism
> > > > they might choose.
> > > >
> > > > At the outset, we need to list the two main ways that end-nodes
> > tell
> > > > the network that they need admission control, which in turn makes
> > the
> > > > PCN-ingress remark their traffic with a PCN-compatible DSCP:
> > > >
> > > > A) flow signalling associates a filterspec with a need for
> > admission
> > > > control (e.g. thru RSVP or some equivalent message down from a
> SIP
> > > > server to the ingress), and the PCN ingress remarks traffic
> > matching
> > > > that filterspec to a PCN-compatible DSCP, as its chosen admission
> > > > control mechanism.
> > > >
> > > > B) Traffic arrives with a DSCP that implies it requires admission
> > > > control such as VOICE-ADMIT [RFC5865] or Interactive Real-Time,
> > > > Broadcast TV when used for video on demand, and Multimedia
> > > > Conferencing [RFC4594, RFC5865].
> > >
> > >You need to re-read the appendix of RFC5696 where we discuss DSCP-
> > related
> > >issues.
> >
> > I did before writing that email.
> >
> > >I am very unkeen to add so much extra text to what should be a
> simple
> > >encoding document. This will end up making the appendix nearly as
> long
> > as
> > >the main document. I also have concerns that this sort of thing is
> > really
> > >architectural. This document isn't about telling operators which of
> > their
> > >traffic they should be doing admission control on.
> > >
> > >I would rather we just put a simple paragraph saying what you have
> in
> > your
> > >intro to this point:
> > >
> > >" End nodes don't ask for PCN control, they ask for admission
> control.
> > >  An operator chooses what mechanism to use for admission control
> over
> > >  their segment of the path, and PCN is just one possible mechanism
> > >  they might choose."
> >
> > We need to provide some explanation for why we suddenly started
> > talking about these four cases. So we do need to say what we mean by
> > end-nodes asking for admission control. It would be nice to cite
> > something that explains, but we don't have anything, because RFC5865
> > on DSCPs for admission contrl went through after all the PCN RFCs so
> > far.
> >
> > So I think we have to treat this appendix as the latest definitive
> > word on the two mains ways that end points might use to signal that
> > they want admission control, even tho it's not really relevant to
> > this doc. The only alternative would be to update the PCN
> > architecture RFC, and I don't want to go there.
> >
> > > > We need to define two phrases, such as:
> > > > * "Traffic that requires admission control" as traffic that uses
> > > > either method A or B.
> > > > * "Traffic that does not require admission control" as traffic
> that
> > > > uses neither of methods A or B.
> > >
> > >OK, happy to have those definitions, but we are going to find
> > ourselves
> > >tying knots as we try and talk about traffic that doesn't need
> > admission
> > >control but which shares the same DSCP...
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > >>>>     ECN traffic not subjected to PCN control but sharing a
> > PCN-
> > > > >>>compatible
> > > > >>>>     DSCP:
> > > > >>>s/sharing a PCN-compatible DSCP/using a PCN-compatible DSCP on
> > > > >>>arrival at the PCN ingress/
> > > >
> > > > On second thoughts, we should head this item
> > > > "ECN capable traffic that does not require admission control but
> > > > carries a DSCP that the PCN-ingress is using for PCN-capable
> > traffic."
> > > >
> > > > HOWEVER, I don't think this case is possible. If traffic arrives
> > with
> > > > a DSCP that would be used for PCN, it is signalling that it
> > requires
> > > > admission control [RFC5865].
> > >
> > >BUT some of that traffic may in fact be automatically admitted
> > (because of
> > >policy), hence it wouldn't use PCN...
> > >
> > >My own view is this whole case needn't be mentioned because the
> > traffic is
> > >neither ECN nor PCN. If we were to list all negative cases we would
> > get an
> > >even longer appendix!
> >
> > Well, the traffic *is* ECN and it is confusable with PCN traffic. As
> > I just said in my mail to Michael, it would only be confusible with
> > PCN traffic if the PCN operator decided to use weird DSCPs for PCN.
> >
> > How about not listing this case as if it is normal, but instead
> > mention it as a 'footnote' to this appendix, as an abnormal case to
> > be avoided if possible, perhaps:
> >
> > "It is strongly RECOMMENDED that the advice in A.1 of the PCN
> > baseline encoding [RFC5696] is followed when choosing which DSCP
> > indicates PCN-compatible traffic. Otherwise nodes within the PCN
> > region will mistake traffic using e2e ECN for PCN-traffic if it also
> > happens to use the chosen DSCP. To avoid this confusion, the PCN
> > ingress would have to remark this traffic to another DSCP, causing
> > further complication and confusion downstream."
> >
> > > >
> > > > >>>>     ECN traffic being subjected to PCN control, receiver
> > indicates
> > > > >>>desire
> > > > >>>>     to see PCN marks:
> > > >
> > > > We should head this item
> > > > "Traffic that requires admission control, where the e2e transport
> > > > somehow indicates it wants to see PCN marks."
> > >
> > >s/"somehow indicates"/"signals that"
> >
> > If you want.
> > I was trying to avoid being prescriptive about how it might be done.
> >
> > >I'll try and unravel all the changes and send a revised version by
> > Monday...
> > >It won't necessarily include all the suggestions (see the inline
> > comment at
> > >the top), and there is a chance I may miss a couple!
> >
> > Yes, when I prepared the email you just replied to, I tried to pull
> > together everything that had been said, so I hope that posting will
> > be useful for you.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> > >Toby
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > >>>>The
> > > > >>>PCN-
> > > > >>>>        egress should not zero the ECN field,
> > > > >>>Don't agree. ECN should never leak into PCN, but PCN might be
> OK
> > to
> > > > >>>leak to ECN receiver.
> > > > >>I'm not allowing ECN to leak into PCN. I am (in limited
> > > > circumstances)
> > > > >>allowing the PCN-domain to over-write the ECN information and
> > hence
> > > > leak PCN
> > > > >>information to the receiver.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>Reasoning: admission of a flow should only depend on PCN
> marking
> > > > >>>within the PCN region. It shouldn't depend on ECN marking from
> > > > queues
> > > > >>>outside the PCN region, which will not have been configured to
> > give
> > > > >>>good signals at the right load levels.
> > > > >>Oh, I think I see your point. RFC6040 tunnels will set the ECN
> of
> > the
> > > > outer
> > > > >>header to whatever is in the inner header. BUT you are
> forgetting
> > > > that the
> > > > >>default behaviour of the PCN-ingress is to clear whatever is in
> > the
> > > > outer
> > > > >>header and set it to 10 (if the traffic is PCN) or 00 (if the
> > traffic
> > > > is
> > > > >>not-PCN)
> > > > >
> > > > >Mentioning that would be helpful. Also we need to remember that
> > but
> > > > >often forget about it and then we wonder about the text ...
> > > > >
> > > > >Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > >     Michael
> > > > >
> > > > >>>The reverse argument seems less likely to apply to leaking PCN
> > to
> > > > >>>receiver, because any decent level of PCN will usefully
> trigger
> > a
> > > > >>>lower rate, thus potentially avoiding the need to block
> > admissions.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>and the tunnel egress should
> > > > >>>>        use [RFC6040] normal mode (preserving any PCN-
> marking).
> > > > >>>There are no modes for an RFC6040 egress. Modes are only for
> the
> > > > >>>ingress.
> > > > >>OK, noted. I did know that really, I was being careless.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>The important point is not what the tunnel egress does
> (assuming
> > the
> > > > >>>arrangement in the Fig below), but that the PCN egress doesn't
> > zero
> > > > >>>the outer ECN field.
> > > > >>Indeed...
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>>Note that
> > > > >>>>        this may turn ECT(0) into ECT(1) and so is not
> > compatible
> > > > with
> > > > >>>the
> > > > >>>>        experimental ECN nonce [RFC3540].
> > > > >>>s/this/PCN marking on interior nodes/
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>     In the list above any form of IP-in-IP tunnel can be
> used
> > > > unless
> > > > >>>>     specified otherwise.  We assume a logical separation of
> > > > tunneling
> > > > >>>>     and PCN actions in both PCN-ingress and PCN-egress
> nodes.
> > > > That
> > > > >>>is,
> > > > >>>>     any tunneling action happens wholly outside the PCN-
> domain
> > as
> > > > >>>>     illustrated in the following figure:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>                  ,  .  .  .  .  PCN-domain  .  .  .  .  .  .
> > .
> > > > >>>>                 .   ,--------.                   ,--------.
> > .
> > > > >>>>                .   _|  PCN-   |___________________|  PCN-
> |_
> > .
> > > > >>>>                .  / | ingress |                   | egress |
> \
> > .
> > > > >>>>                 .|  '---------'                   '--------'
> > |.
> > > > >>>>                  | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> > .|
> > > > >>>>             ,--------.
> ,--
> > ----
> > > > --.
> > > > >>>>       _____| Tunnel  |                                     |
> > > > Tunnel
> > > > >>>|____
> > > > >>>>            | Ingress | - - ECN preserved inside tunnel - - |
> > > > Egress |
> > > > >>>>            '---------'
> '--
> > ----
> > > > --'
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>               Figure 4: Separation of tunneling and PCN
> > actions
> > > > >>>>"
> > > > >>>nice ASCII art.
> > > > >>Thanks :)
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>I hope this captures all the key elements from the
> discussion.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>I am still unsure exactly how we are proceeding with regards
> to
> > > > >>>updating
> > > > >>>>RFC5696. Can this document both update RFC5696 AND be
> dependent
> > on
> > > > it
> > > > >>>as
> > > > >>>>well? Currently I am thinking of adding the following as a
> > > > standalone
> > > > >>>>section:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>"Section N. Effect on baseline encoding
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>The baseline encoding [rfc5696] specified that the 01
> codepoint
> > was
> > > > >>>for use
> > > > >>>>in experimental schemes. It also gave guidelines for such
> > > > experiments.
> > > > >>>This
> > > > >>>>document updates the 01 codepoint and fixes its meaning.
> > > > Consequently
> > > > >>>this
> > > > >>>>document updates [rfc5696]. People wishing to use the 01
> > codepoint
> > > > for
> > > > >>>>experimental schemes as described in [rfc5696] must accept
> the
> > risk
> > > > >>>that
> > > > >>>>PCN-nodes compatible with this encoding scheme may not be
> > > > compatible
> > > > >>>with
> > > > >>>>their experiment."
> > > > >>>It would be dangerous for me to respond to this now - I'm too
> > tired
> > > > >>>to think straight. But my gut feeling is that the wording
> should
> > > > lean
> > > > >>>more towards "updates", and less towards appearing to
> encourage
> > more
> > > > >>>experimentation, which would run counter to interoperability -
> > the
> > > > >>>raison d'etre of a standards body.
> > > > >>OK, I can probably highlight that we are not recommending
> people
> > > > start
> > > > >>experiments, but if they are already using the EXP codepoint
> for
> > > > anything
> > > > >>else they need to be aware of this clash...
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>Two inline responses to Michael at the end
> > > > >>>One from me too...
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>Toby
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> > > > >>>>>From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf
> > > > >>>Of
> > > > >>>>>Toby Moncaster
> > > > >>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 14:58
> > > > >>>>>To: 'Bob Briscoe'; 'Michael Menth'
> > > > >>>>>Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> > > > >>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>I'm not sure if I captured all the changes we intend to do
> on
> > this
> > > > >>>>>draft:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>1) add Michael's text on e2e ECN (once it has become stable)
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>2) add a brief paragraph explaining that this effectively
> > updates
> > > > >>>>>RFC5696
> > > > >>>>>and that therefore anyone running experiments with that are
> on
> > > > >>>their
> > > > >>>>>own
> > > > >>>>>(which they kind of are anyway, if they are doing an
> > experiment!).
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>3) clarify how to do single marking with this encoding.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>I now recall the real reason why I wanted to preserve
> baseline
> > > > >>>which is
> > > > >>>>>that
> > > > >>>>>this encoding has the RFC6040 dependency.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>Is there any mileage in exploring a bis for RFC5696? As I
> see
> > it
> > > > we
> > > > >>>are
> > > > >>>>>always going to have a slightly messy situation. For
> instance
> > I am
> > > > >>>not
> > > > >>>>>sure
> > > > >>>>>if you are allowed the circular dependency of 3-in-1
> encoding
> > > > being
> > > > >>>>>dependent on RFC5696 but also updating RFC5696.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>Of course we could always revive the option we discussed,
> > where we
> > > > >>>>>obsolete
> > > > >>>>>RFC5696 and incorporate a baseline behaviour within this
> draft
> > > > >>>(which
> > > > >>>>>could
> > > > >>>>>then be called PCN encodings using a single DSCP)...
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>Thoughts anyone?
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>Toby
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> > > > >>>>>>From: Bob Briscoe [mailto:bob.briscoe@bt.com]
> > > > >>>>>>Sent: 01 April 2011 13:22
> > > > >>>>>>To: Michael Menth
> > > > >>>>>>Cc: Toby Moncaster; pcn@ietf.org
> > > > >>>>>>Subject: Re: [PCN] ECN handling with 3-in-1
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>Michael,
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>At 09:36 01/04/2011, Michael Menth wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>Hi all,
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>to quickly see that the case analysis is complete, I
> suggest
> > a
> > > > >>>>>>>slight rewording:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>Handling of ECN traffic
> > > > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and not
> > sharing a
> > > > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > > >>>>>>>      - no action needed
> > > > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic not being subject to PCN control and sharing
> a
> > > > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > > >>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with an non-PCN-
> > compatible
> > > > >>>DSCP
> > > > >>>>>>>in the outer header (any tunnel may be used)
> > > > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress maps the DSCP to a local DSCP
> > and
> > > > >>>egress
> > > > >>>>>>>re-maps it to the original PCN-compatible DSCP
> > > > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with
> not-
> > PCN
> > > > in
> > > > >>>the
> > > > >>>>>>>outer header (any tunnel may be used); note that this
> turns
> > of
> > > > >>>ECN
> > > > >>>>>>>for this traffic within the PCN domain.
> > > > >>>>>>We ought to recommend one:
> > > > >>>>>>#2 does nothing wrong, whereas the others do, to a certain
> > > > >>>extent.
> > > > >>>>>>THe only reason for using #3 would be if you are short of
> > DSCPs
> > > > >>>(e.g.
> > > > >>>>>>MPLS or Ethernet).
> > > > >>>>>>#1 changes the PHB, whereas #2 doesn't and is otherwise the
> > same.
> > > > >>>So
> > > > >>>>>>#1 can be chucked.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control
> > > > >>>>>>>      - ingress drops CE-marked packets and egress zeros
> ECN
> > > > >>>field of
> > > > >>>>>>>PCN packets which disables end-to-end ECN
> > > > >>>>>>Not recommended
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>      - alternative: ingress tunnels that traffic with a
> > > > >>>>>>>PCN-compatible DSCP in the outer header and the egress
> zeros
> > > > >>>>>>>ECN-field before decapsulation (any tunnel may be used)
> > > > >>>>>>recommended
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>* ECN traffic being subject to PCN control, and the
> receiver
> > has
> > > > >>>>>>>indicated to receive PCN marks
> > > > >>>>>>>      - ingress tunnels that traffic with a PCN-compatible
> > DSCP
> > > > >>>but
> > > > >>>>>>>the egress SHOULD NOT zero the ECN field before
> > decapsulation
> > > > >>>>>>>according to RFC6040 normal mode; note that this may turn
> > > > >>>ECT(0)
> > > > >>>>>>>into ECT(1) so that the nonce is modified.
> > > > >>>>>>Good point.
> > > > >>>>>>This needs to be clearly flagged as an experimental only
> > scheme.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>Another two questions
> > > > >>>>>>>* Traffic may arrive with a non-PCN-compatible DSCP and is
> > > > >>>subject
> > > > >>>>>>>to PCN control. Do we care about the original DSCP? This
> > seems
> > > > >>>to be
> > > > >>>>>>>a similar issue.
> > > > >>>>>>Similar to what?
> > > > >>>>What Michael means is, if an operator chooses to change the
> > DSCP of
> > > > an
> > > > >>>>arriving packet in order to enable PCN for that packet,
> should
> > that
> > > > >>>change
> > > > >>>>be reversed on leaving the PCN domain? This is starting to
> get
> > > > rather
> > > > >>>>obscure. Appendix A.1 of RFC5696 discusses the choice of
> > suitable
> > > > >>>DSCPs for
> > > > >>>>PCN and makes it clear that operators should choose to use an
> > > > existing
> > > > >>>DSCP
> > > > >>>>providing suitable scheduling and priority. However, if an
> > operator
> > > > >>>chooses
> > > > >>>>to define a local DSCP instead then they are free to do so.
> If
> > I
> > > > >>>recall
> > > > >>>>right, DSCPs are not guaranteed to survive between domains
> > > > anyway...
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>* How is the ECN-field of traffic with a PCN-compatible
> DSCP
> > > > >>>>>>>interpreted outside a PCN domain? I guess with ECN
> > semantics?
> > > > >>>Have
> > > > >>>>>>>we stated that somewhere. Do we need to state it?
> > > > >>>>>>Dunno whether we've said this somewhere. Will need to
> check.
> > > > >>>>Is this at all relevant to PCN? I would argue we don't need
> to
> > > > state
> > > > >>>this
> > > > >>>>anywhere at all since PCN semantics only apply inside a PCN-
> > domain.
> > > > IN
> > > > >>>>appendix A.1 of RFC5696 we make it clear that PCN is a
> marking
> > > > >>>behaviour for
> > > > >>>>use within the PCN-domain and discuss DSCP-related issues
> > > > >>>Given we are talking about e2e ECN support across a PCN
> domain,
> > it
> > > > >>>would do no harm to reinforce the idea that a DSCP cannot even
> > be
> > > > >>>considered PCN-compatible when it is outside a PCN domain - it
> > has
> > > > >>>its usual scheulding PHB, but its congestion marking behaviour
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > >>>ECN default, not PCN.
> > > > >>Would adding the following (in a suitable place) suffice?:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>"PCN is in effect a congestion marking behaviour for use with
> > > > realtime
> > > > >>traffic in a controlled domain. As such, within the PCN-domain,
> > PCN
> > > > marking
> > > > >>replaces ECN marking for any PCN-enabled DSCPs. Outside the
> PCN-
> > > > domain, ECN
> > > > >>remains the default behaviour for all DSCPs."
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Toby
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Bob
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>Bob
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>Best wishes,
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>      Michael
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>--
> > > > >>>>>>>Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > > >>>>>>>University of Tuebingen
> > > > >>>>>>>Faculty of Science
> > > > >>>>>>>Department of Computer Science
> > > > >>>>>>>Chair of Communication Networks
> > > > >>>>>>>Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > > >>>>>>>phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > > >>>>>>>fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > > >>>>>>>mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > > >>>>>>>http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > > >
> >
> >>>>>>________________________________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&
> > Design
> > > > >>>>>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>PCN mailing list
> > > > >>>>>PCN@ietf.org
> > > > >>>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> > > >
> >>>________________________________________________________________
> > > > >>>Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate&
> Design
> > > > >
> > > > >--
> > > > >Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> > > > >University of Tuebingen
> > > > >Faculty of Science
> > > > >Department of Computer Science
> > > > >Chair of Communication Networks
> > > > >Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> > > > >phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> > > > >fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> > > > >mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> > > > >http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________________________________________
> > > > Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


From philip.eardley@bt.com  Wed May  4 09:16:44 2011
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <toby@moncaster.com>, <bob.briscoe@bt.com>
Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 17:16:37 +0100
Thread-Topic: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696
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Toby said:
It looks like we are going to have to create a completely new combined
document after all.=20
...
In order to handle the two distinct cases you set out above I would suggest
that such a document has two parts: a basic encoding (for single marking
schemes) and a full encoding (for dual marking schemes). This would make th=
e
choice of encoding a configuration option similar to the option of whether
to turn on the two marking schemes or not.=20

Question - would this require any changes to any other documents?

[phil]
I don't know whether a completely new combined doc is the best way. Maybe t=
he RFC editor can advise?
(an alternative might be to update the baseline so it just applied to singl=
e marking (with EXP essentially deprecated) plus a new doc on 3-in-1, or to=
 update the baseline with changes so that it includes both (ie defines EXP =
as per 3-in-1 or as deprecated). Anyway, this seems "just" a process questi=
on.

If it is a single doc, then the doc would split into 2 sections, with paral=
lel sub-sections (encoding, applicability, allowed transitions).

I don't understand your comment about marking schemes (rfc5670 defines one =
Metering behaviour, the marking section of that doc says "   A PCN-packet M=
UST be marked to reflect the metering results by
   setting its encoding state appropriately, as specified by the
   specific encoding scheme that applies in the PCN-domain."

Which docs affected?
>From technical point of view, I think all are ok. Edge behaviours basically=
 unaffected - clearly SM & CL refer to teh right sections

RFC 5670 is unaffected, i think. There is one point only where there might =
need to be thought -in section B.2 of rfc5670 (an Informative appendix on I=
mplementation Notes) (I think the wording of the new doc should allow the t=
ext here still to be valid - anyway, the point is extremely pedantic)

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    Title         : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
    Author(s)     : G. Karagiannis, et al
    Filename      : draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-04.txt
    Pages         : 7
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    Title         : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
    Author(s)     : G. Karagiannis, et al
    Filename      : draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-04.txt
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   Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting quality of
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   overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo
   describes the requirements for the signaling applied within the PCN
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   node (in the latter case, (2) is not required). The signaling
   requirements pertain in particular to two edge behaviours, "controlled
   load (CL)" and "single marking (SM)" [draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-
   behaviour-08], [draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05].



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From tom111.taylor@bell.net  Thu May 12 08:41:58 2011
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From: Tom Taylor <tom111.taylor@bell.net>
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Subject: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of a PCN domain?
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A primary assumption behind the use of PCN, one which I don't recall 
seeing stated in so many words, is that it applies only to traffic 
transiting the domain. That is, it does not apply to traffic addressed 
to some server inside the network, unless you draw a boundary around any 
such server and say that PCN-nodes connected to it are PCN-edge-nodes.

That said, it seems to me that by definition it is impossible to 
terminate a tunnel in the interior of a PCN-domain. Am I wrong?

Tom

From menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Thu May 12 09:20:21 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of a PCN domain?
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Hi Tom,

I think you are right. It is important that all PCN traffic is delivered 
to an egress node; otherwise PCN marks cannot be captured and taken into 
account for feedback.

Regards,

     Michael


Am 12.05.2011 17:41, schrieb Tom Taylor:
> A primary assumption behind the use of PCN, one which I don't recall 
> seeing stated in so many words, is that it applies only to traffic 
> transiting the domain. That is, it does not apply to traffic addressed 
> to some server inside the network, unless you draw a boundary around 
> any such server and say that PCN-nodes connected to it are 
> PCN-edge-nodes.
>
> That said, it seems to me that by definition it is impossible to 
> terminate a tunnel in the interior of a PCN-domain. Am I wrong?
>
> Tom
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


From toby@moncaster.com  Thu May 12 09:45:15 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of a PCN	domain?
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Tom,

I assume you're talking of tunnels that straddle the PCN-domain (start
outside and end inside). I've often puzzled about such things.

There is one very small corner case I can think of:

If non-PCN traffic within a tunnel arrives at a PCN-ingress and shares the
same DSCP it might get put into the not-PCN codepoint. That tunnel could
theoretically terminate within the PCN-domain, but it shouldn't affect
things. There is a really obscure possibility that something broken outside
the PCN domain puts some traffic that should be PCN within a tunnel bound
for a node within the PCN domain. I really can't tell what would happen
then!

There is also the case of tunnels that start and end within the
PCN-domain... Those should be OK as long as they use sensible tunnelling
rules (such that marks are copied down on decapsulation).

There is one argument that says having any traffic within the PCN-capable
DSCP destined for a PCN-interior node is impossible since by definition that
makes it into a PCN-egress node. I think that may be what you're driving at?

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Michael Menth
> Sent: 12 May 2011 17:20
> To: Tom Taylor
> Cc: pcn
> Subject: Re: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of a
> PCN domain?
> 
> Hi Tom,
> 
> I think you are right. It is important that all PCN traffic is
> delivered
> to an egress node; otherwise PCN marks cannot be captured and taken
> into
> account for feedback.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>      Michael
> 
> 
> Am 12.05.2011 17:41, schrieb Tom Taylor:
> > A primary assumption behind the use of PCN, one which I don't recall
> > seeing stated in so many words, is that it applies only to traffic
> > transiting the domain. That is, it does not apply to traffic
> addressed
> > to some server inside the network, unless you draw a boundary around
> > any such server and say that PCN-nodes connected to it are
> > PCN-edge-nodes.
> >
> > That said, it seems to me that by definition it is impossible to
> > terminate a tunnel in the interior of a PCN-domain. Am I wrong?
> >
> > Tom
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 
> --
> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> University of Tuebingen
> Faculty of Science
> Department of Computer Science
> Chair of Communication Networks
> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


From tom111.taylor@bell.net  Thu May 12 10:00:57 2011
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Cc: 'pcn' <pcn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of a PCN	domain?
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FYI my query related to operational considerations.

On 12/05/2011 12:45 PM, Toby Moncaster wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I assume you're talking of tunnels that straddle the PCN-domain (start
> outside and end inside). I've often puzzled about such things.
>
[PTT] Yes

....

>
> There is one argument that says having any traffic within the PCN-capable
> DSCP destined for a PCN-interior node is impossible since by definition that
> makes it into a PCN-egress node. I think that may be what you're driving at?
>
[PTT] Yes again.

> Toby
>
...

From philip.eardley@bt.com  Fri May 13 02:59:45 2011
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <tom111.taylor@bell.net>, <toby@moncaster.com>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 10:59:42 +0100
Thread-Topic: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of a	PCN domain?
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of a	PCN	domain?
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I spent a bit of time puzzling about such tunnels during PCN-architecture d=
ays. I remember we had some discussion with David Black, and he was happy w=
ith the approach written in rfc5559. Reading it again, it seems to be sayin=
g
In case (1), effectively treat it as having some PCN-ingress-node functiona=
lity at the tunnel egress;
In case (2), make sure that when it's eventually decapsulated, nothing in t=
hat distant network will be confused.

phil

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5559#section-4.7

<<
  Potential issues arise for a "partially PCN-capable tunnel", ie,
   where only one tunnel endpoint is in the PCN-domain:

   1.  The tunnel originates outside a PCN-domain and ends inside it.
       If the packet arrives at the tunnel ingress with the same
       encoding as used within the PCN-domain to indicate PCN-marking,
       then this could lead the PCN-egress-node to falsely measure pre-
       congestion.

   2.  The tunnel originates inside a PCN-domain and ends outside it.
       If the packet arrives at the tunnel ingress already PCN-marked,
       then it will still have the same encoding when it's decapsulated,
       which could potentially confuse nodes beyond the tunnel egress.

   In line with the solution for partially capable Diffserv tunnels in
   [RFC2983], the following rules are applied:

   o  For case (1), the tunnel egress node clears any PCN-marking on the
      inner header.  This rule is applied before the "copy on
      decapsulation" rule above.

   o  For case (2), the tunnel ingress node clears any PCN-marking on
      the inner header.  This rule is applied after the "copy on
      encapsulation" rule above.

   Note that the above implies that one has to know, or determine, the
   characteristics of the other end of the tunnel as part of
   establishing it.
>>


-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom T=
aylor
Sent: 12 May 2011 18:01
To: Toby Moncaster
Cc: 'pcn'
Subject: Re: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of a PCN do=
main?

FYI my query related to operational considerations.

On 12/05/2011 12:45 PM, Toby Moncaster wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I assume you're talking of tunnels that straddle the PCN-domain (start
> outside and end inside). I've often puzzled about such things.
>
[PTT] Yes

....

>
> There is one argument that says having any traffic within the PCN-capable
> DSCP destined for a PCN-interior node is impossible since by definition t=
hat
> makes it into a PCN-egress node. I think that may be what you're driving =
at?
>
[PTT] Yes again.

> Toby
>
...
_______________________________________________
PCN mailing list
PCN@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From Richard.Lee.FTC@FMR.COM  Fri May 13 06:21:36 2011
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From: "Lee, Richard FTC" <Richard.Lee.FTC@FMR.COM>
To: "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>, "tom111.taylor@bell.net" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>, "toby@moncaster.com" <toby@moncaster.com>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 09:21:24 -0400
Thread-Topic: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of	a	PCN domain?
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of	a	PCN	domain?
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To all;

I deal with strategic design for the enterprise

A thought --
I see this as a handoff problem between 2 domains
If the ingress node is in 1 PCN domain and the destination/egress node is i=
n another PCN domain; you are assuming a level of trust that may not exist
Wouldn't it be better to deal with it as a perimeter problem

Ingress PCN-1 domain traverses across PCN-1
At the perimeter between PCN-1 and PCN-2, the egress node for the PCN-1 dom=
ain marks the packets for PCN handling

PCN-2 domain may or may not honor the marking
If the PCN-2 domain acts on the marking; PCN-2 perimeter ingress marks PCN =
for the PCN-2 domain
The destination in the PCN-2 domain is the PCN-2 egress and appropriate res=
ponses are sent within PCN-2, from PCN-2 to PCN-1 and within PCN-1 domains

If the PCN-2 domain does not act on the marking no response is sent=20

Rich=20


=20

-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of phili=
p.eardley@bt.com
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 6:00 AM
To: tom111.taylor@bell.net; toby@moncaster.com
Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of a PCN do=
main?

I spent a bit of time puzzling about such tunnels during PCN-architecture d=
ays. I remember we had some discussion with David Black, and he was happy w=
ith the approach written in rfc5559. Reading it again, it seems to be sayin=
g
In case (1), effectively treat it as having some PCN-ingress-node functiona=
lity at the tunnel egress;
In case (2), make sure that when it's eventually decapsulated, nothing in t=
hat distant network will be confused.

phil

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5559#section-4.7

<<
  Potential issues arise for a "partially PCN-capable tunnel", ie,
   where only one tunnel endpoint is in the PCN-domain:

   1.  The tunnel originates outside a PCN-domain and ends inside it.
       If the packet arrives at the tunnel ingress with the same
       encoding as used within the PCN-domain to indicate PCN-marking,
       then this could lead the PCN-egress-node to falsely measure pre-
       congestion.

   2.  The tunnel originates inside a PCN-domain and ends outside it.
       If the packet arrives at the tunnel ingress already PCN-marked,
       then it will still have the same encoding when it's decapsulated,
       which could potentially confuse nodes beyond the tunnel egress.

   In line with the solution for partially capable Diffserv tunnels in
   [RFC2983], the following rules are applied:

   o  For case (1), the tunnel egress node clears any PCN-marking on the
      inner header.  This rule is applied before the "copy on
      decapsulation" rule above.

   o  For case (2), the tunnel ingress node clears any PCN-marking on
      the inner header.  This rule is applied after the "copy on
      encapsulation" rule above.

   Note that the above implies that one has to know, or determine, the
   characteristics of the other end of the tunnel as part of
   establishing it.
>>


-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom T=
aylor
Sent: 12 May 2011 18:01
To: Toby Moncaster
Cc: 'pcn'
Subject: Re: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of a PCN do=
main?

FYI my query related to operational considerations.

On 12/05/2011 12:45 PM, Toby Moncaster wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I assume you're talking of tunnels that straddle the PCN-domain (start
> outside and end inside). I've often puzzled about such things.
>
[PTT] Yes

....

>
> There is one argument that says having any traffic within the PCN-capable
> DSCP destined for a PCN-interior node is impossible since by definition t=
hat
> makes it into a PCN-egress node. I think that may be what you're driving =
at?
>
[PTT] Yes again.

> Toby
>
...
_______________________________________________
PCN mailing list
PCN@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
_______________________________________________
PCN mailing list
PCN@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From philip.eardley@bt.com  Mon May 16 05:17:15 2011
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <Richard.Lee.FTC@FMR.COM>, <tom111.taylor@bell.net>, <toby@moncaster.com>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 13:17:09 +0100
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of	a	PCN	domain?
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I'm sure you're right that it can be considered as a perimeter problem.

when the group first started, we were thinking about the use case where the=
re are 2 adjacent PCN-domains. The idea was to apply some CONEX-like techno=
logy to this scenario, so as to enable PCN-domains to be interconnected, ev=
en when the domains didn't trust each other. In order to simplify the WG's =
scope, we decided to put this out of scope (well, initial scope, but I don'=
t think people want to re-charter)
Conex now has a WG, http://tools.ietf.org/wg/conex/=20

If i remember right, in RFC5559 we were thinking about tunnel from PCN-doma=
in to non-PCN-domain (or vice-versa), rather than from one PCN-domain to an=
other PCN-domain.

Best wishes
Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee, Richard FTC [mailto:Richard.Lee.FTC@FMR.COM]=20
Sent: 13 May 2011 14:21
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,DES8 R; tom111.taylor@bell.net; toby@moncaster.com
Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of a PCN do=
main?

To all;

I deal with strategic design for the enterprise

A thought --
I see this as a handoff problem between 2 domains
If the ingress node is in 1 PCN domain and the destination/egress node is i=
n another PCN domain; you are assuming a level of trust that may not exist
Wouldn't it be better to deal with it as a perimeter problem

Ingress PCN-1 domain traverses across PCN-1
At the perimeter between PCN-1 and PCN-2, the egress node for the PCN-1 dom=
ain marks the packets for PCN handling

PCN-2 domain may or may not honor the marking
If the PCN-2 domain acts on the marking; PCN-2 perimeter ingress marks PCN =
for the PCN-2 domain
The destination in the PCN-2 domain is the PCN-2 egress and appropriate res=
ponses are sent within PCN-2, from PCN-2 to PCN-1 and within PCN-1 domains

If the PCN-2 domain does not act on the marking no response is sent=20

Rich=20


=20

-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of phili=
p.eardley@bt.com
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 6:00 AM
To: tom111.taylor@bell.net; toby@moncaster.com
Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of a PCN do=
main?

I spent a bit of time puzzling about such tunnels during PCN-architecture d=
ays. I remember we had some discussion with David Black, and he was happy w=
ith the approach written in rfc5559. Reading it again, it seems to be sayin=
g
In case (1), effectively treat it as having some PCN-ingress-node functiona=
lity at the tunnel egress;
In case (2), make sure that when it's eventually decapsulated, nothing in t=
hat distant network will be confused.

phil

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5559#section-4.7

<<
  Potential issues arise for a "partially PCN-capable tunnel", ie,
   where only one tunnel endpoint is in the PCN-domain:

   1.  The tunnel originates outside a PCN-domain and ends inside it.
       If the packet arrives at the tunnel ingress with the same
       encoding as used within the PCN-domain to indicate PCN-marking,
       then this could lead the PCN-egress-node to falsely measure pre-
       congestion.

   2.  The tunnel originates inside a PCN-domain and ends outside it.
       If the packet arrives at the tunnel ingress already PCN-marked,
       then it will still have the same encoding when it's decapsulated,
       which could potentially confuse nodes beyond the tunnel egress.

   In line with the solution for partially capable Diffserv tunnels in
   [RFC2983], the following rules are applied:

   o  For case (1), the tunnel egress node clears any PCN-marking on the
      inner header.  This rule is applied before the "copy on
      decapsulation" rule above.

   o  For case (2), the tunnel ingress node clears any PCN-marking on
      the inner header.  This rule is applied after the "copy on
      encapsulation" rule above.

   Note that the above implies that one has to know, or determine, the
   characteristics of the other end of the tunnel as part of
   establishing it.
>>


-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom T=
aylor
Sent: 12 May 2011 18:01
To: Toby Moncaster
Cc: 'pcn'
Subject: Re: [PCN] Can tunnels really terminate in the interior of a PCN do=
main?

FYI my query related to operational considerations.

On 12/05/2011 12:45 PM, Toby Moncaster wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I assume you're talking of tunnels that straddle the PCN-domain (start
> outside and end inside). I've often puzzled about such things.
>
[PTT] Yes

....

>
> There is one argument that says having any traffic within the PCN-capable
> DSCP destined for a PCN-interior node is impossible since by definition t=
hat
> makes it into a PCN-egress node. I think that may be what you're driving =
at?
>
[PTT] Yes again.

> Toby
>
...
_______________________________________________
PCN mailing list
PCN@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
_______________________________________________
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PCN@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Sat May 21 04:15:39 2011
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Subject: [PCN] I-D Action: draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion Notific=
ation Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Encoding 3 PCN-States in the IP header using a single DS=
CP
	Author(s)       : Bob Briscoe
                          Toby Moncaster
                          Michael Menth
	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2011-05-21

   The objective of Pre-Congestion Notification (PCN) is to protect the
   quality of service (QoS) of inelastic flows within a Diffserv domain.
   On every link in the PCN domain, the overall rate of the PCN-traffic
   is metered, and PCN-packets are appropriately marked when certain
   configured rates are exceeded.  Egress nodes provide decision points
   with information about the PCN-marks of PCN-packets which allows them
   to take decisions about whether to admit or block a new flow request,
   and to terminate some already admitted flows during serious pre-
   congestion.

   This document specifies how PCN-marks are to be encoded into the IP
   header by re-using the Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN)
   codepoints within a PCN-domain.  This encoding builds on the baseline
   encoding of RFC5696 and provides for three different PCN marking
   states using a single DSCP: not-marked (NM), threshold-marked (ThM)
   and excess-traffic-marked (ETM).  Hence, it is called the 3-in-1 PCN
   encoding.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.txt

From toby@moncaster.com  Sat May 21 04:20:48 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D Action: draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.txt
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I finally finished updating this draft as agreed at the Prague meeting.
Please can people give feedback, especially about the new appendix...

Text:
<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.txt>
PDF:
<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.pdf>
HTML: <http://moncaster.com/PCN/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.html>
UNPG: <http://moncaster.com/PCN/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.unpg>
XML:
<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.xml>

It really needs someone to go through it thoroughly as I didn't get round to
doing it myself ;)

There has been a parallel thread regarding what to do about RFC5696 which I
will now try and resolve. 

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: 21 May 2011 12:16
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: [PCN] I-D Action: draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.txt
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories. This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-
> Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 	Title           : Encoding 3 PCN-States in the IP header using a
> single DSCP
> 	Author(s)       : Bob Briscoe
>                           Toby Moncaster
>                           Michael Menth
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.txt
> 	Pages           : 16
> 	Date            : 2011-05-21
> 
>    The objective of Pre-Congestion Notification (PCN) is to protect the
>    quality of service (QoS) of inelastic flows within a Diffserv
> domain.
>    On every link in the PCN domain, the overall rate of the PCN-traffic
>    is metered, and PCN-packets are appropriately marked when certain
>    configured rates are exceeded.  Egress nodes provide decision points
>    with information about the PCN-marks of PCN-packets which allows
> them
>    to take decisions about whether to admit or block a new flow
> request,
>    and to terminate some already admitted flows during serious pre-
>    congestion.
> 
>    This document specifies how PCN-marks are to be encoded into the IP
>    header by re-using the Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN)
>    codepoints within a PCN-domain.  This encoding builds on the
> baseline
>    encoding of RFC5696 and provides for three different PCN marking
>    states using a single DSCP: not-marked (NM), threshold-marked (ThM)
>    and excess-traffic-marked (ETM).  Hence, it is called the 3-in-1 PCN
>    encoding.
> 
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-
> 05.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-
> 05.txt
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
To: <philip.eardley@bt.com>, <bob.briscoe@bt.com>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696
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I have now released the revised version of the 3-in-1 draft.

After much thinking and pondering I reckon the only sensible thing regarding
RFC5696 is to revise it (rather than deprecating it). There are two reasons
for this, firstly the 3-in-1 encoding doesn't necessarily provide the
cleanest approach for a single marking scheme (since it fixes which marker
marks 01 and 11) and secondly there is still a desire among some to leave
alternative encodings open.

There are two routes to revising the document:

(A) Changing it to a single-marking encoding but keep it as a standard. That
requires:
 - deprecate the EXP encoding
 - remove the more irrelevant appendixes, and move the others into a -06
version of 3-in-1 (for instance all the discussion of which DSCP to use).

(B) Change it to an experimental encoding but tighten the rules about it not
being allowed in any other PCN-domain (in other words put the onus on
experimenters to be careful). That requires:
 - update the rules on experimental schemes
 - Add relevant warning text and re-word it to be clear this is only for
experiments
 - Move the DSCP related appendix to the 3-in-1 document

Of the two options (A) is relatively easy and would be my preference. (B)
requires lots of work and I would want a really convincing argument that
schemes such as PSDM are of interest to an operator before we went down that
route. In either case we are going to have to do some more work on 3-in-1,
but hopefully mainly cut-and-paste...

If I get another burst of energy today I may release a suggested draft for
option (A)...

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> Sent: 04 May 2011 17:17
> To: toby@moncaster.com; bob.briscoe@bt.com
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696
> 
> Toby said:
> It looks like we are going to have to create a completely new combined
> document after all.
> ...
> In order to handle the two distinct cases you set out above I would
> suggest
> that such a document has two parts: a basic encoding (for single
> marking
> schemes) and a full encoding (for dual marking schemes). This would
> make the
> choice of encoding a configuration option similar to the option of
> whether
> to turn on the two marking schemes or not.
> 
> Question - would this require any changes to any other documents?
> 
> [phil]
> I don't know whether a completely new combined doc is the best way.
> Maybe the RFC editor can advise?
> (an alternative might be to update the baseline so it just applied to
> single marking (with EXP essentially deprecated) plus a new doc on 3-
> in-1, or to update the baseline with changes so that it includes both
> (ie defines EXP as per 3-in-1 or as deprecated). Anyway, this seems
> "just" a process question.
> 
> If it is a single doc, then the doc would split into 2 sections, with
> parallel sub-sections (encoding, applicability, allowed transitions).
> 
> I don't understand your comment about marking schemes (rfc5670 defines
> one Metering behaviour, the marking section of that doc says "   A PCN-
> packet MUST be marked to reflect the metering results by
>    setting its encoding state appropriately, as specified by the
>    specific encoding scheme that applies in the PCN-domain."
> 
> Which docs affected?
> From technical point of view, I think all are ok. Edge behaviours
> basically unaffected - clearly SM & CL refer to teh right sections
> 
> RFC 5670 is unaffected, i think. There is one point only where there
> might need to be thought -in section B.2 of rfc5670 (an Informative
> appendix on Implementation Notes) (I think the wording of the new doc
> should allow the text here still to be valid - anyway, the point is
> extremely pedantic)


From menth@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Sat May 21 19:10:59 2011
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Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D Action: draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.txt
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Hi Toby,

I went through the doc. I have only a few corrections in the main body 
and some more in the appendix. It's mainly editorial to improve readability.

Best wishes,

     Michael

Am 21.05.2011 13:20, schrieb Toby Moncaster:
> I finally finished updating this draft as agreed at the Prague meeting.
> Please can people give feedback, especially about the new appendix...
>
> Text:
> <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.txt>
> PDF:
> <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.pdf>
> HTML:<http://moncaster.com/PCN/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.html>
> UNPG:<http://moncaster.com/PCN/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.unpg>
> XML:
> <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.xml>
>
> It really needs someone to go through it thoroughly as I didn't get round to
> doing it myself ;)
>
> There has been a parallel thread regarding what to do about RFC5696 which I
> will now try and resolve.
>
> Toby
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> Sent: 21 May 2011 12:16
>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
>> Subject: [PCN] I-D Action: draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.txt
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> directories. This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-
>> Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF.
>>
>> 	Title           : Encoding 3 PCN-States in the IP header using a
>> single DSCP
>> 	Author(s)       : Bob Briscoe
>>                            Toby Moncaster
>>                            Michael Menth
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-05.txt
>> 	Pages           : 16
>> 	Date            : 2011-05-21
>>
>>     The objective of Pre-Congestion Notification (PCN) is to protect the
>>     quality of service (QoS) of inelastic flows within a Diffserv
>> domain.
>>     On every link in the PCN domain, the overall rate of the PCN-traffic
>>     is metered, and PCN-packets are appropriately marked when certain
>>     configured rates are exceeded.  Egress nodes provide decision points
>>     with information about the PCN-marks of PCN-packets which allows
>> them
>>     to take decisions about whether to admit or block a new flow
>> request,
>>     and to terminate some already admitted flows during serious pre-
>>     congestion.
>>
>>     This document specifies how PCN-marks are to be encoded into the IP
>>     header by re-using the Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN)
>>     codepoints within a PCN-domain.  This encoding builds on the
>> baseline
>>     encoding of RFC5696 and provides for three different PCN marking
>>     states using a single DSCP: not-marked (NM), threshold-marked (ThM)
>>     and excess-traffic-marked (ETM).  Hence, it is called the 3-in-1 PCN
>>     encoding.
>>
>>
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-
>> 05.txt
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-
>> 05.txt
>> _______________________________________________
>> PCN mailing list
>> PCN@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

-- 
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
http://www-kn.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de


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Subject: Re: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696
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Hi Toby,

Single Marking is fine with me, if it is just single marking. That seems to=
 be option (A) then.

I like PSDM in the flavour proposed by Michael (and me) lately:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-menth-pcn-marked-signaling-ac

I think the proposal is an additional edge behaviour rather than an additio=
nal marking scheme.

Regards,

Ruediger


-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toby =
Moncaster
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:40 PM
To: philip.eardley@bt.com; bob.briscoe@bt.com
Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696

I have now released the revised version of the 3-in-1 draft.

After much thinking and pondering I reckon the only sensible thing regardin=
g
RFC5696 is to revise it (rather than deprecating it). There are two reasons
for this, firstly the 3-in-1 encoding doesn't necessarily provide the
cleanest approach for a single marking scheme (since it fixes which marker
marks 01 and 11) and secondly there is still a desire among some to leave
alternative encodings open.

There are two routes to revising the document:

(A) Changing it to a single-marking encoding but keep it as a standard. Tha=
t
requires:
 - deprecate the EXP encoding
 - remove the more irrelevant appendixes, and move the others into a -06
version of 3-in-1 (for instance all the discussion of which DSCP to use).

(B) Change it to an experimental encoding but tighten the rules about it no=
t
being allowed in any other PCN-domain (in other words put the onus on
experimenters to be careful). That requires:
 - update the rules on experimental schemes
 - Add relevant warning text and re-word it to be clear this is only for
experiments
 - Move the DSCP related appendix to the 3-in-1 document

Of the two options (A) is relatively easy and would be my preference. (B)
requires lots of work and I would want a really convincing argument that
schemes such as PSDM are of interest to an operator before we went down tha=
t
route. In either case we are going to have to do some more work on 3-in-1,
but hopefully mainly cut-and-paste...

If I get another burst of energy today I may release a suggested draft for
option (A)...

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> Sent: 04 May 2011 17:17
> To: toby@moncaster.com; bob.briscoe@bt.com
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] Revised 3-in-1 draft and status of RFC5696
>
> Toby said:
> It looks like we are going to have to create a completely new combined
> document after all.
> ...
> In order to handle the two distinct cases you set out above I would
> suggest
> that such a document has two parts: a basic encoding (for single
> marking
> schemes) and a full encoding (for dual marking schemes). This would
> make the
> choice of encoding a configuration option similar to the option of
> whether
> to turn on the two marking schemes or not.
>
> Question - would this require any changes to any other documents?
>
> [phil]
> I don't know whether a completely new combined doc is the best way.
> Maybe the RFC editor can advise?
> (an alternative might be to update the baseline so it just applied to
> single marking (with EXP essentially deprecated) plus a new doc on 3-
> in-1, or to update the baseline with changes so that it includes both
> (ie defines EXP as per 3-in-1 or as deprecated). Anyway, this seems
> "just" a process question.
>
> If it is a single doc, then the doc would split into 2 sections, with
> parallel sub-sections (encoding, applicability, allowed transitions).
>
> I don't understand your comment about marking schemes (rfc5670 defines
> one Metering behaviour, the marking section of that doc says "   A PCN-
> packet MUST be marked to reflect the metering results by
>    setting its encoding state appropriately, as specified by the
>    specific encoding scheme that applies in the PCN-domain."
>
> Which docs affected?
> From technical point of view, I think all are ok. Edge behaviours
> basically unaffected - clearly SM & CL refer to teh right sections
>
> RFC 5670 is unaffected, i think. There is one point only where there
> might need to be thought -in section B.2 of rfc5670 (an Informative
> appendix on Implementation Notes) (I think the wording of the new doc
> should allow the text here still to be valid - anyway, the point is
> extremely pedantic)

_______________________________________________
PCN mailing list
PCN@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net  Thu May 26 16:45:27 2011
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Hi guys,=20

I was wondering what the deployment status of the PCN mechanism is.=20
Is it ending up like so many other QoS proposals? If so, did we learn =
something about what went wrong?

Ciao
Hannes
=20=

From Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de  Thu May 26 23:47:46 2011
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From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
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Hi Hannes,

PCN is specified in a modular way. That's an advantage and parts of PCN may=
 see deployment. Bob mentioned, that DCTCP applies ECN or PCN marking (I di=
dn't read the publication yet).

For the time being, Deutsche Telekom will not deploy RSVP or the like to si=
gnal for QoS, but PCN is based on the presence of such a protocol. We could=
 imagine something lightweight, but nothing requiring state maintenance in =
routers. So full PCN will not be deployed. But measurement based admissiion=
 control to signal network busy is within scope.

PCN deployment requires (beyond others) the following mechanisms which aren=
't available:
- threshold marking.
- Ingress to egress aggregate measurement (difficult in the presence of ECM=
P, may work if tunnels are used).

There's a draft supported by me removing the need for the latter. The forme=
r is still required but not available.

I like the way the WG worked and the results it produced (and yet hoping th=
at the above mentioned draft sees enough support to get WG status).

QoS comes with a lot of complexity. As usual, only simple solutions allow f=
or interoperable end to end deployment. As all standards bodies failed to s=
tandardise a simple basic set of interoperable end to end QoS mechanisms (i=
n general, not just regarding PCN), there's hardly any widely accepted stan=
dard applied by all carriers.

While Expedited Forwarding using a single DSCP is widely deployed, Assured =
Forwarding (using four classes and 12 DSCPs without telling the reader whic=
h application should use which class) is the first QoS standard creating as=
 many problems as it solves. That's true for most of the varuious other QoS=
 related standards which followed (not limited to IETF). There's too much f=
lexibility and too little standardisation of simple solutions.

Regards,

Ruediger


-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hanne=
s Tschofenig
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 1:45 AM
To: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] Deployment Status?

Hi guys,

I was wondering what the deployment status of the PCN mechanism is.
Is it ending up like so many other QoS proposals? If so, did we learn somet=
hing about what went wrong?

Ciao
Hannes

_______________________________________________
PCN mailing list
PCN@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From bob.briscoe@bt.com  Fri May 27 05:54:56 2011
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Hannes,

Just a few additional points to add to Ruediger's email.

At 07:46 27/05/2011, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de wrote:
>Hi Hannes,
>
>PCN is specified in a modular way. That's an advantage and parts of 
>PCN may see deployment. Bob mentioned, that DCTCP applies ECN or PCN 
>marking (I didn't read the publication yet).

To clarify, DCTCP currently uses ECN, but there's work to test it 
with PCN threshold marking instead (it's not being called PCN, but 
it's exactly the same marking algo).


>For the time being, Deutsche Telekom will not deploy RSVP or the 
>like to signal for QoS, but PCN is based on the presence of such a 
>protocol. We could imagine something lightweight, but nothing 
>requiring state maintenance in routers. So full PCN will not be 
>deployed. But measurement based admissiion control to signal network 
>busy is within scope.

Just to be clear, the idea of PCN was to avoid per-flow state mtce in 
routers, except once, where you (probably) do flow policing at ingress.

There has been work on using alternative signalling systems to RSVP, 
such as RACF with SIP at app layer and COPS down to the PCN edge router.

Also, PCN has been considered for internal use, giving early warning 
that overbooking an MPLS-TE aggregate has started to reach its limits 
and needs increasing.


>PCN deployment requires (beyond others) the following mechanisms 
>which aren't available:
>- threshold marking.

* Broadcom implemented threshold marking in their chipsets in early 
2010 so it has been widely available for all vendors who buy-in their 
chipsets from Broadcom (which is a large part of the market).
* I believe Huawei also implemented threshold marking, altho I don't 
know whether they are selling it as a feature.

>- Ingress to egress aggregate measurement (difficult in the presence 
>of ECMP, may work if tunnels are used).

* I believe Huawei implemented this too.

Is anyone aware of any others?


>There's a draft supported by me removing the need for the latter. 
>The former is still required but not available.
>
>I like the way the WG worked and the results it produced (and yet 
>hoping that the above mentioned draft sees enough support to get WG status).

Yup


>QoS comes with a lot of complexity. As usual, only simple solutions 
>allow for interoperable end to end deployment. As all standards 
>bodies failed to standardise a simple basic set of interoperable end 
>to end QoS mechanisms (in general, not just regarding PCN), there's 
>hardly any widely accepted standard applied by all carriers.
>
>While Expedited Forwarding using a single DSCP is widely deployed, 
>Assured Forwarding (using four classes and 12 DSCPs without telling 
>the reader which application should use which class) is the first 
>QoS standard creating as many problems as it solves. That's true for 
>most of the varuious other QoS related standards which followed (not 
>limited to IETF). There's too much flexibility and too little 
>standardisation of simple solutions.

I agree with Ruediger on all this.

Also, other criticial failings IMO:
- Complex and/or non-existent APIs
- Unrealistic applicability message. There's been a lack of 
recognition that QoS is a transient requirement for leading edge 
applications. For any particular app, the need goes away as as line 
rates increase (and queuing delay reduces), but the requirement moves 
to new leading edge apps. Instead, QoS has always been sold as 
something that is a characteristic of a particular app, which becomes 
patently false; just as the standards become ready everyone is 
already using the app without QoS.
- Unrealistic economics. Lack of recognition that you don't need QoS 
if your policy is to continually maintain high quality BE by overprovisioning.

This last point may be changing - recent predicitions seem to show 
that over the next 3-4 years revenues will fall significantly short 
of what is required to pay for predicted growth in demand for 
capacity - in both fixed and mobile.

So you never know - we might yet be dragging out and dusting off the 
standards for some of the (simpler) QoS mechanisms some time soon.


Bob


>Regards,
>
>Ruediger
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf 
>Of Hannes Tschofenig
>Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 1:45 AM
>To: pcn@ietf.org
>Subject: [PCN] Deployment Status?
>
>Hi guys,
>
>I was wondering what the deployment status of the PCN mechanism is.
>Is it ending up like so many other QoS proposals? If so, did we 
>learn something about what went wrong?
>
>Ciao
>Hannes
>
>_______________________________________________
>PCN mailing list
>PCN@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>_______________________________________________
>PCN mailing list
>PCN@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design 


From iesg-secretary@ietf.org  Fri May 27 13:38:01 2011
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From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
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Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 13:38:00 -0700
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Subject: [PCN] Last Call: <draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08.txt> (PCN Boundary	Node Behaviour for the Controlled Load (CL) Mode of Operation)	to Informational RFC
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The IESG has received a request from the Congestion and Pre-Congestion
Notification WG (pcn) to consider the following document:
- 'PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Controlled Load (CL) Mode of
   Operation'
  <draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour-08.txt> as an Informational RFC

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2011-06-10. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the
beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


Pre-congestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting the
quality of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv
domain.  The overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559.  This
memo is one of a series describing possible boundary node behaviours
for a PCN-domain.  The behaviour described here is that for a form of
measurement-based load control using three PCN marking states, not-
marked, threshold-marked, and excess-traffic-marked.  This behaviour
is known informally as the Controlled Load (CL) PCN-boundary-node
behaviour.



The file can be obtained via
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.



From iesg-secretary@ietf.org  Fri May 27 13:38:57 2011
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Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 13:38:56 -0700
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Subject: [PCN] Last Call: <draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05.txt> (PCN Boundary	Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode of Operation)	to Informational RFC
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The IESG has received a request from the Congestion and Pre-Congestion
Notification WG (pcn) to consider the following document:
- 'PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode of
   Operation'
  <draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour-05.txt> as an Informational RFC

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2011-06-10. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the
beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


Pre-congestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting the
quality of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv
domain.  The overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559.  This
memo is one of a series describing possible boundary node behaviours
for a PCN-domain.  The behaviour described here is that for a form of
measurement-based load control using two PCN marking states, not-
marked, and excess-traffic-marked.  This behaviour is known
informally as the Single Marking (SM) PCN edge behaviour.



The file can be obtained via
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.


