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From: Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
To: perc@ietf.org
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Subject: [Perc] PERC Design Team Call #4
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--001a1140f58a955e350525dbb297
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Hello All


Here is the doodle poll link for the next PERC design team call to be held
in January.


http://doodle.com/poll/3zxdsrhme34kw59r


The poll has options from the 2nd week of Jan till the end of Jan.

Please let Richard and I know your availability by casting your votes by *9th
December 2015*

Look forward to discussions

Cheers
Suhas/Richard

--001a1140f58a955e350525dbb297
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Hello All</span><div styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Here is the doodle poll link for t=
he next PERC design team call to be held in January.</div><div style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div sty=
le=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><a href=3D"http://doodle.com/poll/=
3zxdsrhme34kw59r">http://doodle.com/poll/3zxdsrhme34kw59r</a></span><br></d=
iv><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px=
"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">The poll has options from the 2=
nd week of Jan till the end of Jan.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8=
px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Please let Richard and I know=
 your availability by casting your votes by <b>9th December 2015</b></div><=
div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Lo=
ok forward to discussions</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><d=
iv style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Cheers</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">S=
uhas/Richard</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div></div>

--001a1140f58a955e350525dbb297--


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Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 15:08:37 -0500
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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
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Subject: Re: [Perc] PERC Design Team Call #4
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Correction: As discussed on the call, we will be treating this one as
a virtual interim, not a design team meeting.

Either way, please fill out the doodle poll :)

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All
>
>
> Here is the doodle poll link for the next PERC design team call to be held
> in January.
>
>
> http://doodle.com/poll/3zxdsrhme34kw59r
>
>
> The poll has options from the 2nd week of Jan till the end of Jan.
>
> Please let Richard and I know your availability by casting your votes by 9th
> December 2015
>
> Look forward to discussions
>
> Cheers
> Suhas/Richard
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Perc mailing list
> Perc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc
>


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From: Jonathan Lennox <jonathan@vidyo.com>
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From nobody Wed Dec  2 06:42:46 2015
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Subject: Re: [Perc] MID and RID
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Den 2015-11-30 kl. 19:12, skrev Mo Zanaty (mzanaty):
> It's unfortunate we never reached some important header extensions like
> MID and RID in today's design meeting. The proposed MDD behavior (can't
> modify) in the slides does not seem right. Like PT, these values are
> dictated by signaling negotiation, and it may be impossible for MDDs to
> force symmetry and uniformity in the signaling negotiation across all
> participants in order to avoid modifying these values. So I think the
> MDD should be allowed to modify these, and we may want to preserve
> original values for the same reason as PT (in case highly secure
> implementations go as far as ensuring MDD signaling is reasonable given
> some E2E signaling).
>

Yes, I hadn't considered MID and RID and the CLUE capture ID properly 
when doing that slide for the SDES items. It needs to categorize the 
individual SDES items. It appears clear that we have both end-to-end 
ones like CNAME, as well as hop-by-hop ones such as MID.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Den 2015-12-01 kl. 02:36, skrev Christian Groves:
> Hello Magnus,
>
> One additional use case worth considering for RTCP FB is remote RTP
> pause / resume (draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-stream-pause). The MDD would need
> to coordinate the sending of pause and resume amongst the RTP endpoints.
>

Yes, that one should also be discussed when looking at the needs for 
RTCP. The way Pause and Resume is designed it can properly actually 
operate both in an end-to-end case as well as hop-by-hop. The later is 
more resource saving and quicker, but has different security properties 
from the end-to-end one.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Färögatan 6                 | Mobile +46 73 0949079
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Subject: [Perc] Minutes from Design Team call #3
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Hey all,

Please find below the chairs' notes from the design team call we had on Monday.

--Richard


PERC Design Team Call #3

# Chairs introduction

* Future calls will follow Virtual Interim process
* This call is focused on figuring out what capabilities the MDD needs
to modify header fields


# Discussion of Header Fields

Summary of conclusions on call:

  Field       Can be modified?    Send original?
  V               No                   ---
  X               Yes            Maybe (see extn)
  M               No                   ---
  PT              Yes                  Yes
  SEQ             Yes                  Yes
  Timestamp       No                   ---
  SSRC            No                   ---
  CSRC/CC         No                   ---
  Extension       Yes                  TBD

---

V - MDD MUST NOT change

P - MDD MUST NOT change

X - MDD needs to be able to change
    -- Original value may be necessary for E2E integrity-protected extns

M - MDD MUST NOT change
    -- M is used to signal to endpoints to reset jitter buffers
    -- ... but it's tied to SSRC, so switching SSRC could be the signal
    -- Might need to document how this relates to SSRC / source indication

PT - MDD needs to be able to change
   -- MDD can always trash the conference
   -- needs changing to match PTs across individual sessions
   -- Security considerations about malicious PT changes
   -- No immediate need for the original value at the receiver
   -- ... but we should keep the option open

SEQ - MDD needs to be able to change

-- For, e.g., consistent loss detection with stream on/off behavior

-- Different from network attacker b/c long silences are normal

-- Replay attacks might need extra mechanism

-- e.g., authenticated ROC in EKT

-- Delay attack might be better handled with timestamp / RTCP

-- Original value needed at the endpoint


Timestamp - MDD MUST NOT change

-- MDD might want to change if MSM are used

-- No MSM , no need to fudge the timespatmp

-- When changed needs to preserve the original value

-- No need to change if SSRC is immutable


SSRC - MDD MUST NOT change

-- Splicing attack - needs source to be verified ?

-- Need higher level layer to ensure SSRCs are end to end
authenticated somehow [[ or otherwise have the right properties ]]

-- Might need to come back and make it mutable later

-- Need to better express to the list why this design is simpler (Magnus/Adam)

-- Might be making some topologies incompatible with this decision

-- ... and we should be explicit about this


CSRC - MDD MUST NOT change

-- ... and by implication, CSRC Count (CC)


Header Extensions

-- ID values behave similar to PT (signaling based assignment)

-- ... so MDD might need to align them

-- Needs more discussion of how

-- RFC5450

-- MDD MUST NOT change

-- Not used widely today and might not be in future (ref RMCAT )

-- RFC6051

-- MDD MUST NOT change, might need more discussions

-- no timestamp rewriting implies no changing of this value

-- Tied to E2E RTCP decision

-- RFC6464

-- removing or not removing might not matter

-- b/w might force to remove but having it allows end-point to verify
the authenticity of source reporting its audio level

--  RFC6465

-- MDD MUST NOT Modify

--  Encrypted or not ( needs more discussion for all the audio
levels). Use HBH as the baseline to drive these discussions.

-- CVO

-- MUST NOT MODIFY

-- [[ Ran out of time here ]]


Path Forward:

-- Work through existing extensions to see what capabilities are needed

-- Write protocol mechanism for capabilities, handling guidlines per header


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--001a114418709fd465052690389e
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Hello All

  We are closing the poll for our upcoming PERC Virtual Interim meetings
for the below dates


*Jan 11th 2016 ,  11 AM EST*

*Jan 25th 2016,  11 AM EST*


Please mark your calendars. We will be sending follow up emails with more
details on the agenda and as such for each of these dates.


Cheers
Richard/Suhas

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:

> Correction: As discussed on the call, we will be treating this one as
> a virtual interim, not a design team meeting.
>
> Either way, please fill out the doodle poll :)
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hello All
> >
> >
> > Here is the doodle poll link for the next PERC design team call to be
> held
> > in January.
> >
> >
> > http://doodle.com/poll/3zxdsrhme34kw59r
> >
> >
> > The poll has options from the 2nd week of Jan till the end of Jan.
> >
> > Please let Richard and I know your availability by casting your votes by
> 9th
> > December 2015
> >
> > Look forward to discussions
> >
> > Cheers
> > Suhas/Richard
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Perc mailing list
> > Perc@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc
> >
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello All<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 We are closing the pol=
l for our upcoming PERC Virtual Interim meetings for the below dates</div><=
div><br></div><div><b><font size=3D"4"><br></font></b></div><div><b><font s=
ize=3D"4" color=3D"#3d85c6">Jan 11th 2016 , =C2=A011 AM EST</font></b></div=
><div><b><font size=3D"4" color=3D"#3d85c6"><br></font></b></div><div><b><f=
ont size=3D"4" color=3D"#3d85c6">Jan 25th 2016, =C2=A011 AM EST</font></b><=
/div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Please mark your calendars. We will=
 be sending follow up emails with more details on the agenda and as such fo=
r each of these dates.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div>=
<div>Richard/Suhas</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Richard Barnes <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlb@ipv.sx" target=3D"_blank">rlb@ipv.sx</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Correction: As discussed on=
 the call, we will be treating this one as<br>
a virtual interim, not a design team meeting.<br>
<br>
Either way, please fill out the doodle poll :)<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Suhas Nandakumar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:suha=
sietf@gmail.com">suhasietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Hello All<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Here is the doodle poll link for the next PERC design team call to be =
held<br>
&gt; in January.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://doodle.com/poll/3zxdsrhme34kw59r" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://doodle.com/poll/3zxdsrhme34kw59r</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The poll has options from the 2nd week of Jan till the end of Jan.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please let Richard and I know your availability by casting your votes =
by 9th<br>
&gt; December 2015<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Look forward to discussions<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers<br>
&gt; Suhas/Richard<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Perc mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Perc@ietf.org">Perc@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perc</a><br>
&gt;<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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