From victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com Sun Aug 2 03:47:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCA228C0D6 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 2009 03:47:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.392 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.392 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.207, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id woFJItinsGOi for ; Sun, 2 Aug 2009 03:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f214.google.com (mail-ew0-f214.google.com [209.85.219.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D523A68E9 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 2009 03:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ewy10 with SMTP id 10so2426911ewy.37 for ; Sun, 02 Aug 2009 03:47:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Z1v+v1jopARsM+yrRZhknsVLDHqVZcJN9Z8UCVXKSNs=; b=QnAbewm2Oyut2eG4QmG9g7xZ45a0hHcgjg2o/LvzGQezuzb0u+ealxLXs02wptn09N 7EyUYoe3fii5ua6dcx382giDKqNnb6cUGSov4aaIYJ/TDy1unedVGf16fodS7xK/LYoy 7x0qDO+E4iAFj0iI4gglIGhNb+JEx7Zb1t/90= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OhNM14tsj0Y2hkqJXDD9+8s49czTN0UJyT2t2o3AAwZrzMmQ5ks7pU5uhdnAZjCSlS Rh5NGyrCpY6HCIs3zMC6Hy0rYxs3f0F5Psi9VWPIoI8ZZgVbWo3+TQ5MJrm/KuBUe3iz U3Zby5eVH9O5Vuk9KSuN3qPQ4yTuiE/cZojM8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.1.85 with SMTP id 63mr975526wec.26.1249210057235; Sun, 02 Aug 2009 03:47:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0KNN004TO1JQ1I@szxml01-in.huawei.com> References: <0KNN004TO1JQ1I@szxml01-in.huawei.com> Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 12:47:37 +0200 Message-ID: <618e24240908020347r6b54313ds1f41a17c748814d7@mail.gmail.com> From: Victor Pascual Avila To: Ning Zong Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP bar BoF follow up X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 10:47:39 -0000 On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Ning Zong wrote: > We have already post the bar BoF slides to the mailling list. If you have= any problem with downloading and openning them, just let us know and we wi= ll send you copies. The slides are also available at http://www.iptel.org/victor/IETF/IETF75/PP= SP/ Cheers, --=20 Victor Pascual =C3=81vila From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Aug 5 00:37:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA17D3A7173 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2009 00:37:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.608 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.608 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EbMg00OJegKU for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2009 00:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726993A67DA for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2009 00:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.4.230]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009080514513618-9553 ; Wed, 5 Aug 2009 14:51:36 +0800 Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 14:51:33 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-ID: <200908051451337819623@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-05 14:51:36, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-05 15:37:08 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon483833125453_=====" Subject: [ppsp] minutes of PPSP final Bar BOF X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 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Hi all,

   The minutes of PPSP final Bar BOF is as=20 follows.Please= take a=20 look and feel free to comment. Thanks= to=20 Victor for taking the notes!

 =
 =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;     =20 BR
 =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;       =20 Yunfei

--------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

A 3rd = PPSP=20 bar bof was held on Thursday July 30, 2009 at IETF 75 Stockholm meeting. Th= is is=20 a follow-up to meetings at IETF 73 Minneapolis and IETF 74 San=20 Francisco.

&= nbsp;

Mailin= g=20 list=A3=BAppsp@ietf.org=20 http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

 

PPSP=20 Final bar BOF-- IETF 75, Stockholm (2000-2200 Thursday, July 30, = Room=20 300)

Number=20 of participants: around= 50=20

Previous=20 meetings:

IETF=20 73: 1st Bar BOF<= /o:p>

IETF=20 74: 2nd Bar BOF Minutes:=20 http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/current/msg00158.html<= /SPAN>

 

Chairs:

Yunfei=20 Zhang( zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com)

Gonzalo=20 Camarillo ( gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com)

Ning=20 Zong(zongning@huawei.com)

 

AD:=20 Lars Eggert( lars.eggert@nokia.com)

 

Note=20 taker: Victor Pascual (victor.pascual@tekelec.com)

Jabber=20 scribe: Vijay Gurbani (vkg@alcatel-lucent.com)=20 http://jabber.ietf.org/logs/tsvarea/2009-07-30.txt =20

 

Websites:

IETF=20 wiki page:=20 http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/PPSP?version=3D10<= /SPAN>

China=20 Mobile PPSP page: http://labs.chinamobile.com/ppsp/ietf

 

Agenda:

 

1.=20 Agenda bashing (Chair,5') =20

2.=20 Short Introduction (Chair,5')

        = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;           =20

3.=20 Problem Statement (Yunfei Zhang, 40')

Draft:=20 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ppsp-problem-statement-04=

Slides:=20 http://www.iptel.org/victor/IETF/IETF75/PPSP/IETF75v5.ppt=

 

4.=20 Solution and survey drafts

 

-Chunk=20 Discovery for P2P Streaming (Ning Zong, 20=A1=AF)

Draft:=20 http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zong-ppsp-chunk-discovery-00.txt

Slides:=20 http://www.iptel.org/victor/IETF/IETF75/PPSP/Chunk%20Discovery%20for%20P2P%= 20Streaming.ppt

 

-=20 Protocol Analysis of PPlive, PPStream and UUSee by Interent Measurement (Yu= nfei=20 Zhang,10')

Draft:=20 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement= -02

Slides:=20 http://www.iptel.org/victor/IETF/IETF75/PPSP/protocol%20comaprison.ppt=

 

5.=20 Discussion (All, 30')

6.=20 Decisions and HUMs (All, 5')

7.=20 Conclusions and Next Steps (Chairs/ADs, 5')  

 

Note=20 well and agenda=A8C Yunfei Zhang

Yunfei=20 presented the agenda. This is the 3rd and last Bar BOF and the goal is poli= shing=20 the problem statement while getting ready for an official BOF in=20 Japan

 

Problem=20 Statement =A8C Yunfei Zhang

Yunfei=20 presented slides on Problem Statement.

 

The=20 use cases are not clear (the play out layer does only include limited=20 commands).<= /o:p>

Answer= =A3=BAThis c= ould be=20 extended. Currently mainly for live streaming. If dealing with VoD or other= s,=20 more command may be included.

Discussion=20 on constituency for the work: is this something that people really want to = deploy? Who is the customer for this? <= /o:p>

Vidya<= /SPAN>=20 argued we cannot make a decision based on what existing companies do or not= .=20 It's worth asking how many people is going to spend cycles on it. Business = models is not the job of the ietf<= /o:p>

Syntax:=20 The problem is still not clear and there are already some syntax proposals.= It's=20 just to evaluate whether we could reuse existing protocols or not.<= /o:p>

Yunfei= said=20 that China Mobile was doing the prototype with several solutions, like mesh= ed=20 based and DHT based.

Gonzal= o=20 reminded that slides 7 suggested that CDN and cache vendors may also use=20 this.

Vijay = reported to the meeting that a jabber message said that he had asked with m= any=20 Chinese p2p streaming vendors and these vendors said they were developing m= obile=20 P2P streaming products.

Lars=20 suggested that it may be better that even the claim of using open P2P strea= ming=20 protocols from a small streaming vendor, who may not as big as PPLive and=20 PPStream was convincing to show the deployment condition.=

Yunfei= added=20 that there would be certainly solution drafts in next IETF meeting to show = this=20 and more solution drafts were welcome to contribute.

Scope:=20 both peer-tracker and peer-peer communications are in PPSP=20 scope

 

Chunk=20 Discovery for P2P Streaming =A8C Ning Zong

Is=20 this a use case for P2PSIP Reload? Not clear

We=20 need terminology for P2P streaming

There=20 are different interpretations of what is the problem to be=20 solved

Some=20 background on how live streaming works would be beneficial

What=20 the querying peer needs is a list of good peers (not all peers)<= /o:p>

Ning Z= ong=20 said peer selection could be done with enhanced information in=20 Tracker.

Ning Z= ong=20 said some issues were implementations, not the scope of new protocols we wa= nt to=20 develop in PPSP.

 

Protocol=20 Analysis of PPLive, PPStream and UUSEee by Internet Measurements  =A8C Yunfei Zhang

It=20 was agreed to steer the group towards having discussion instead of going th= ru=20 the last presentation.

 

Discussion:=20 see if we can charter a WG by Hiroshima =A8C all

Some=20 of this work may not fall in p2psip

It=20 may well be that this is an example where we run a BoF and the outcome is=20 re-chartering an existing WG instead of creating a new one. Lack of<= SPAN=20 lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning= : 0pt">=20 agreement.

If=20 this is coming from someone who has an existing large-scale implementation = that=20 they want to bring to IETF, then we start with that.

If=20 we have a protocol we can extend to make work, we will do so.If not, then w= e=20 will develop a new protocol for ppsp.

Discussions=20 on clarifying the intent of this work and not make it too broad -- keep it = p2p=20 streaming instead of p2p content delivery of static=20 content

 

 

Conclusions:

Incentives=20 and motivations (who are going to implement and deploy it) need to be worke= d=20 out.

The=20 scope needs to be elaborated: build a generic mechanism to build swarms tha= t=20 could be used for things like streaming and file transfer, to build a syste= m=20 that supports video streaming, to build a system that supports live streami= ng,=20 or combinations of these.<= /o:p>

Termin= ology=20 and concept of P2P streaming.

Proceed=20 with an official BOF at the next IETF (Japan).<= /o:p>

 =

zhangyunfei
2009-08-05
--=====003_Dragon483833125453_=====-- From guyingjie@huawei.com Thu Aug 6 18:25:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1BB3A6D38 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2009 18:25:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.35 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.35 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.920, BAYES_20=-0.74, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GOS+P7uPwIPy for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2009 18:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 509E33A677C for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2009 18:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KNZ00AS5FYH1L@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:25:29 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KNZ003XWFYH37@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:25:29 +0800 (CST) Received: from g00107907 ([10.164.12.64]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KNZ003VBFYGR4@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:25:29 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:25:28 +0800 From: "Y.J. Gu" In-reply-to: <200908051451337819623@chinamobile.com> To: 'zhangyunfei' , ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <000001ca16fd$f2dc6ef0$400ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_5it4hTZ11yEpjSAJFiPIwA)" Thread-index: AcoVn85iMa+Um88ESlePIbQX6Z0iaABWaACw Subject: Re: [ppsp] minutes of PPSP final Bar BOF X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 01:25:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_5it4hTZ11yEpjSAJFiPIwA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT First of all, I want to voice my support. I find that the discussion about motivation of PPSP is very alike in IETF 74 and 75. It's not easy to convince existing P2P streaming applications to use PPSP, but for those who's gona repeat the development circle and is lack of economic support and human resource, PPSP is helpful. PPSP is also helpful for those P2P application providers who pay more attention on quality&quantity of content, e.g. who exceeds by unique content, than on developing proprietary protocol. Yunfei, I notice that you use protocol over HTTP in registration and report in page 14 of the slide, don't you think HTTP will overburden the peers, 'cause peers have to publish and report frequently. Regards Yingjie Gu --Boundary_(ID_5it4hTZ11yEpjSAJFiPIwA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
First of all, I want to voice my support.
I find that the discussion about motivation of PPSP is very alike in IETF 74 and 75.
It's not easy to convince existing P2P streaming applications to use PPSP, but for those who's gona repeat the development circle and is lack of economic support and human resource, PPSP is helpful. PPSP is also helpful for those P2P application providers who pay more attention on quality&quantity of content, e.g. who exceeds by unique content, than on developing proprietary protocol.
 
Yunfei, I notice that you use protocol over HTTP in registration and report in page 14 of the slide, don't you think HTTP will overburden the peers, 'cause peers have to publish and report frequently. 
 
 

Regards

Yingjie Gu

 
--Boundary_(ID_5it4hTZ11yEpjSAJFiPIwA)-- From zongning@huawei.com Thu Aug 6 20:22:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90AC83A6904 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2009 20:22:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.124 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.124 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.564, BAYES_20=-0.74, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K3TveqnA2ouh for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2009 20:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E80C03A69A2 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2009 20:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KNZ00HJTLD8MA@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:22:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KNZ003N7LD737@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:22:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316 ([10.164.12.81]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KNZ005DSLD7Y9@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:22:19 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:22:19 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: <000001ca16fd$f2dc6ef0$400ca40a@china.huawei.com> To: "'Y.J. Gu'" , 'zhangyunfei' , ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <002601ca170e$4567ec20$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_4sBRpYnX9oCVryweQCcClQ)" Thread-index: AcoVn85iMa+Um88ESlePIbQX6Z0iaABWaACwAAUZdIA= Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIG1pbnV0ZXMgb2YgUFBTUCBmaW5hbCBCYXIg?= =?gb2312?b?Qk9G?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 03:22:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_4sBRpYnX9oCVryweQCcClQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable >>HTTP will overburden the peers, 'cause peers have to publish and = report frequently.=20 =20 [Ning Zong]: It depends on which information is to be reported to the Tracker. If only =A1=B0coarse information=A1=B1 such as the video name = (rather than chunk names), access type, terminal capability not changing over time, = HTTP is still a good choice. =20 =20 _____ =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Y.J. Gu =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C27=C8=D5 9:25 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 'zhangyunfei'; ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] minutes of PPSP final Bar BOF =20 First of all, I want to voice my support. I find that the discussion about motivation of PPSP is very alike in = IETF 74 and 75.=20 It's not easy to convince existing P2P streaming applications to use = PPSP, but for those who's gona repeat the development circle and is lack of economic support and human resource, PPSP is helpful. PPSP is also = helpful for those P2P application providers who pay more attention on quality&quantity of content, e.g. who exceeds by unique content, than on developing proprietary protocol.=20 =20 Yunfei, I notice that you use protocol over HTTP in registration and = report in page 14 of the slide, don't you think HTTP will overburden the peers, 'cause peers have to publish and report frequently.=20 =20 =20 =20 Regards Yingjie Gu =20 --Boundary_(ID_4sBRpYnX9oCVryweQCcClQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

>>HTTP will overburden the peers, 'cause peers have to publish and report = frequently. 

 

[Ning Zong]:  It depends on which = information is to be reported to the Tracker. If only =A1=B0coarse information=A1=B1 = such as the video name (rather than chunk names), access type, terminal capability not = changing over time, HTTP is still a good choice.

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA= =B1=ED Y.J. Gu
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C27=C8=D5 = 9:25
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 'zhangyunfei'; ppsp@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] minutes of PPSP final Bar BOF

 

First of all, I want to voice my = support.

I find that the = discussion about motivation of PPSP is very alike in IETF 74 and 75.

It's not easy to = convince existing P2P streaming applications to use PPSP, but for those = who's gona repeat the development circle and is lack of economic support and = human resource, PPSP is helpful. PPSP is also helpful for those P2P = application providers who pay more attention on quality&quantity of content, e.g. who exceeds by unique content, than on developing = proprietary protocol.

 

Yunfei, I notice that = you use protocol over HTTP in registration and report in page 14 of the = slide, don't you think HTTP will overburden the peers, 'cause peers have = to publish and report frequently. 

 

 

 

Regards

Yingjie Gu

 

--Boundary_(ID_4sBRpYnX9oCVryweQCcClQ)-- From zongning@huawei.com Thu Aug 6 21:00:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B90CD3A67F3 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2009 21:00:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.534 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.360, BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TieGDrFeuHzd for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2009 21:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga02-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030323A68A7 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2009 21:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga02-in [172.24.2.6]) by szxga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KNZ0020PMZKOK@szxga02-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:57:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KNZ002APMZKWN@szxga02-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:57:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316 ([10.164.12.81]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KNZ00DYXMZJG3@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:57:20 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:57:19 +0800 From: Ning Zong To: ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <003601ca1713$29723b10$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_u5n9YgezpNzSI/TyiLIJtQ)" Thread-index: AcoXEykv5Vc83di8RE+Eqyhrw8etqg== Subject: [ppsp] Incentive of PPSP - view from CDN/Cache providers X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 04:00:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_u5n9YgezpNzSI/TyiLIJtQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, all, Just want to clarify the incentive of PPSP from the view of CDN and cache providers. CDN/cache providers host/cache content from different SPs to improve the service quality of SPs, as well as reduce transit traffic in ISP network. Especially, when hosting/caching P2P streaming content from multiple P2P streaming applications, CDN/cache need to understand various P2P streaming protocols, which introduce complexity and high cost to CDN/cache providers. So, from the perspective of CDN/cache providers, a standard P2P streaming protocol is beneficial. The following figure depicts a scenario where a CDN/cache provider supports multiple P2P streaming applications. This shows that a unified protocol between tracker and peer, as well as peer and peer is helpful to CDN/cache provider. Note that P-T is unified peer-tracker protocol and P-P means unified peer-peer protocol. P_1, P_2 denote current (private) protocol used in individual P2P streaming applications App_1 and App_2. Comments are welcome! +--------------------------+ +---------------------------+ | App_1.Tracker | | App_2.Tracker | +--------------------------+ +---------------------------+ * # # * * # P-T (content report, etc) # P-T * * # # * * +===========================+ * P_1 | CDN/cache device (Act as Peer) | P_2 * +===========================+ * * # # * * # P-P # P-P (Chunk info exchange, etc) * * # # * ---------------------- ---------------------------------------------- | App_1.Peer | | App_2.Peer | ---------------------- ---------------------------------------------- BR, Ning Zong --Boundary_(ID_u5n9YgezpNzSI/TyiLIJtQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, = all,

 =

Just want to clarify the = incentive of PPSP from the view of CDN and cache = providers…

CDN/cache providers host/cache = content from different SPs to improve the service quality of SPs, as well as = reduce transit traffic in ISP network. Especially, when hosting/caching P2P streaming = content from multiple P2P streaming applications, CDN/cache need to understand = various P2P streaming protocols, which introduce complexity and high cost to = CDN/cache providers. So, from the perspective of CDN/cache providers, a standard = P2P streaming protocol is beneficial.

The following figure depicts a scenario where a CDN/cache provider supports multiple P2P streaming applications. This shows that a unified protocol between tracker and = peer, as well as peer and peer is helpful to CDN/cache provider. Note that P-T is unified peer-tracker protocol and P-P means unified peer-peer protocol. = P_1, P_2 denote current (private) protocol used in individual P2P streaming applications App_1 and App_2. Comments are = welcome!

 =

+------= --------------------+        &nbs= p;                        &= nbsp; +---------------------------+

| =   App_1.Tracker  = |            =                       &= nbsp; |   App_2.Tracker  |

+------= --------------------+        &nbs= p;                        &= nbsp; +---------------------------+

   *  =       #      =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;         #     =          *=

   = *           #  P-T (content report, etc)       =   # P-T      =          *=

   = *            =    #            =             #            = =           *<= /span>

   *  =            +=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= +            =       *

P_1 &nb= sp;         |  CDN/cache device (Act as Peer)  = |            =     P_2

   = *            = +=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D+          &nb= sp;       *

   = * =             &= nbsp;   #       #          =             &= nbsp;             &= nbsp; *

   = *            = #  P-P    =       #  P-P (Chunk info exchange, etc)    *

   * =          #   =                     #  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;  *

----------------------  &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;           -------------------------= ---------------------

| App_1.Peer  =  |           =             &= nbsp; |         App_2.Peer =           |<= /span>

----------------------  &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;           ----------------------------------------------

 

BR,

Ning = Zong

--Boundary_(ID_u5n9YgezpNzSI/TyiLIJtQ)-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Aug 6 23:10:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF9E3A68B2 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2009 23:10:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.755 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.755 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.782, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2pmWGRb2UGjS for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2009 23:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCAF73A6CE1 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2009 23:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.4.67]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009080714092159-8661 ; Fri, 7 Aug 2009 14:09:21 +0800 Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 14:09:18 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Y.J. Gu" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <000001ca16fd$f2dc6ef0$400ca40a@china.huawei.com> Message-ID: <200908071409174847641@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-07 14:09:21, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-07 14:09:31, Serialize complete at 2009-08-07 14:09:31 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon016088320833_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] minutes of PPSP final Bar BOF X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 06:10:03 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon016088320833_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.245, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WPvmxAmhW7U0 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 01:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E69B3A6A73 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 01:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.4.189]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009081816512124-13800 ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:51:21 +0800 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:51:19 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" References: Message-ID: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on 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PFNQQU4gbGFuZz1kZT48Rk9OVCBmYWNlPUFyaWFsIGNvbG9yPSMwMDAwZmY+V2hhdCBkbyB5b3Ug bWVhbiBvZiB0aGUgbGFzdCANCnF1ZXN0aW9uLENocmlzdGlhbj9Zb3UgbWVhbiB3aGF0IGhhcHBl bnMgdG8gdGhlIHBsYXlpbmcgc3RyZWFtIGluIGNhc2Ugb2YgY2h1bmsgDQpkcm9wIG9yIHdoYXQ/ PC9GT05UPjwvU1BBTj48L1A+DQo8UD48U1BBTiBsYW5nPWVuLXVzPjxGT05UIGZhY2U9QXJpYWwg c2l6ZT0yPlJlZ2FyZHM8L0ZPTlQ+PC9TUEFOPiA8QlI+PFNQQU4gDQpsYW5nPWVuLXVzPjxGT05U IGZhY2U9QXJpYWwgc2l6ZT0yPkNocmlzdGlhbiBTY2htaWR0PC9GT05UPjwvU1BBTj4gDQo8L1A+ PC9GT05UPjwvRElWPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= --=====003_Dragon623788017508_=====-- From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Tue Aug 18 02:18:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 650353A6D24 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 02:18:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.970, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XvlP6L3isXBc for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 02:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [217.115.75.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A8C3A6966 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 02:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7I9HJxf026126 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:17:19 +0200 Received: from demuexc023.nsn-intra.net (demuexc023.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.36]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7I9HGkQ019228; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:17:19 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc023.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:17:10 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA1FE4.AA29C3CF" Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:17:10 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Thread-Index: Acof4Vyf5IF0guP6RuaF/tueTWaiLwAAjKRA References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext zhangyunfei" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2009 09:17:10.0420 (UTC) FILETIME=[AA554540:01CA1FE4] Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:18:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA1FE4.AA29C3CF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yunfei, =20 thanks for forwarding to the list. =20 With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 and MPEG4 (for HDTV). As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses these kind of compression for = broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. What kind of codec do you want to use for this purpose? =20 If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 of the chunks fails, = then this would cause a severere loss of quality, because you would lose a lot of information (every 4th packet), not only = a few packets. =20 Regards Christian Schmidt =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM To: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP I am not sure if Christian's message is received in the mailing list.So = redirect it.Some replies are inline. =20 Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2009-08-18 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP =20 The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification.=20 Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned streaming, which is used = for the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors what parts of a = movie a peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. Am I right, that one media stream is subdivided into several chunks?=20 Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming is partitioned = into chunks which are distributed and stored by the widespread peers. Can you describe, how the distribution of a compressed media stream into = several chunks can be achieved?=20 I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When does it happen?How to = play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway the partition = process should be independent of the compression process as I = understand. What happens, if one of the required chunk sources drop during a PPSP = session? Partial or complete new chunk discovery? What happens to the = stream in between? In general there is no need of new chunk discovery in case of chunk = source drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet drop.And this is = the reason why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You mean what happens to = the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? Regards=20 Christian Schmidt=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA1FE4.AA29C3CF Content-Type: text/html; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Yunfei,
 
thanks for forwarding to the = list.
 
With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 = and MPEG4=20 (for HDTV).
As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses = these kind=20 of compression for broadcasting to reduce needed = bandwith.
What kind of codec do you want to use for = this=20 purpose?
 
If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks = and 1 of=20 the chunks fails, then this would cause a severere loss of=20 quality,
because you would lose a lot of information = (every 4th=20 packet), not only a few packets.
 
Regards
Christian Schmidt
 
 
 
 
 

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20 zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 = AM
To:=20 ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for=20 PPSP

I am not sure if = Christian's=20 message is received in the mailing list.So redirect it.Some replies are=20 inline.
 
          &nbs= p;   =20 Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
2009-08-18
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. = (NSN - DE/Munich)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA=20 2009-08-18 16:10:55
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext=20 zhangyunfei
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 ppsp-bounces@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for=20 PPSP
 

The meaning of a chunk = needs further=20 clarification.

Chunk: A chunk is a basic = unit of=20 partitioned streaming, which is used for the purpose of storage and = advertising=20 to neighbors what parts of a movie a peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P=20 streaming].

Am I right, that one = media stream is=20 subdivided into several chunks?

Yes,you are right.As is stated in the = paper,streaming is=20 partitioned into chunks which are distributed and stored by the = widespread=20 peers.

Can you describe, how the = distribution=20 of a compressed media stream into several chunks can be achieved?=20

I am not quite = clear about=20 "compressed media".When does it happen?How to play a compressed media = stream in=20 the player?Anyway the partition process should be independent of the = compression=20 process as I understand.

What happens, if one of = the required=20 chunk sources drop during a PPSP session? Partial or complete new chunk=20 discovery? What happens to the stream in between?

In general there = is no need of=20 new chunk discovery in case of chunk source drop because streaming is = tolerent=20 to the packet drop.And this is the reason why most P2P streaming = applications=20 use UDP directly.

What do you mean = of the last=20 question,Christian?You mean what happens to the playing stream in case = of chunk=20 drop or what?

Regards =
Christian Schmidt =

------_=_NextPart_001_01CA1FE4.AA29C3CF-- From tme@americafree.tv Tue Aug 18 03:05:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75D2B3A6B55 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 03:05:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.972 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.972 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.573, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rawYNm0Y01Ky for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 03:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.americafree.tv (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 588983A681D for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 03:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by mail.americafree.tv (Postfix) with ESMTP id B65FD4830958; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 05:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv> From: Marshall Eubanks To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 05:55:57 -0400 References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 10:05:51 -0000 On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =20 wrote: > Hi Yunfei, > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 and MPEG4 (for HDTV). > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses these kind of compression =20= > for broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > What kind of codec do you want to use for this purpose? > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 of the chunks =20 > fails, then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > because you would lose a lot of information (every 4th packet), not =20= > only a few packets. > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to use something like =20= the Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as Annex G) of =20 the H.264 video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC allows for =20 degradation rather than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a =20 stream are lost or dropped. Regards Marshall > Regards > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =20= > Of ext zhangyunfei > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > To: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in the mailing =20 > list.So redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > 2009-08-18 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ext zhangyunfei > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned streaming, which is =20 > used for the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors what =20 > parts of a movie a peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > Am I right, that one media stream is subdivided into several chunks? > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming is partitioned =20= > into chunks which are distributed and stored by the widespread peers. > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a compressed media stream =20= > into several chunks can be achieved? > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When does it happen?=20 > How to play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway the =20 > partition process should be independent of the compression process =20 > as I understand. > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources drop during a =20 > PPSP session? Partial or complete new chunk discovery? What happens =20= > to the stream in between? > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery in case of chunk =20= > source drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet drop.And =20 > this is the reason why most P2P streaming applications use UDP =20 > directly. > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You mean what =20 > happens to the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > Regards > Christian Schmidt > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Tue Aug 18 05:54:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4083A67A3 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 05:54:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.676 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.676 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.727, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fxxcJ5Fdy47J for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 05:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [217.115.75.234]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 099BB3A680E for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 05:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7IBApHq004250 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:10:51 +0200 Received: from demuexc023.nsn-intra.net (demuexc023.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.36]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7IBAmJ7008735; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:10:51 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc023.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:10:46 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:10:45 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Thread-Index: Acof6hfEEBHjxv2bRVCNzAzYkBsVvQACkAFA References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com> <0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext Marshall Eubanks" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2009 11:10:46.0851 (UTC) FILETIME=[893E1930:01CA1FF4] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:54:28 -0000 Sounds good, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalable_Video_Coding Regards Christian =20 -----Original Message----- From: ext Marshall Eubanks [mailto:tme@americafree.tv]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:56 AM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) Cc: ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =20 wrote: > Hi Yunfei, > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 and MPEG4 (for HDTV). > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses these kind of compression =20 > for broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > What kind of codec do you want to use for this purpose? > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 of the chunks =20 > fails, then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > because you would lose a lot of information (every 4th packet), not =20 > only a few packets. > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to use something like =20 the Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as Annex G) of =20 the H.264 video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC allows for =20 degradation rather than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a =20 stream are lost or dropped. Regards Marshall > Regards > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =20 > Of ext zhangyunfei > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > To: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in the mailing =20 > list.So redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > 2009-08-18 > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned streaming, which is =20 > used for the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors what =20 > parts of a movie a peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > Am I right, that one media stream is subdivided into several chunks? > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming is partitioned =20 > into chunks which are distributed and stored by the widespread peers. > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a compressed media stream =20 > into several chunks can be achieved? > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When does it happen?=20 > How to play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway the =20 > partition process should be independent of the compression process =20 > as I understand. > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources drop during a =20 > PPSP session? Partial or complete new chunk discovery? What happens =20 > to the stream in between? > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery in case of chunk =20 > source drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet drop.And =20 > this is the reason why most P2P streaming applications use UDP =20 > directly. > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You mean what =20 > happens to the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > Regards > Christian Schmidt > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From davidbryan@gmail.com Tue Aug 18 07:33:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958E528C144 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:33:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.148 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.148 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.125, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZsXs5MNAZaCn for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f217.google.com (mail-gx0-f217.google.com [209.85.217.217]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 545DF3A69DB for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk17 with SMTP id 17so4809283gxk.19 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:33:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WsE/zm/7VijhxXmvSvd1yH4aqbmNXdAoXPEvEIExwQA=; b=TuvDlx1cXjrZlyyRq5qNVpfro+h3XS8OL7m39O/8I2QIu1aZRr+YEHuiVGpaeJjBhA UAqLxlaqc2gYYt4gv9+opZiJWgqtuGa0DM6j4s3dZ0sz6dl9GxUtyD/kczTYV9ldjXoW OwBwJK7gtggQxvX05+9Air7o7Pxv/+7aOpz8Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=kQ6SDgPPX3aTbTd1Zx5d/5WS5+73T6jQ/EmbwHvOhRjWspaHqvRP8B+laK28BZBxFP 7ZeTf2Uu+qSMe+AwhWwlKH2PL2GYNgjlw0E/73sPVjAccLcnU6XqUmzxqyNTevXgtC9k TMJCaTuWD/4XkBtfdZB5JShu1HeN+aMcs8htU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: davidbryan@gmail.com Received: by 10.150.194.20 with SMTP id r20mr8238576ybf.65.1250605985943; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:33:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv> References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com> <0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 10:33:05 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ec5bd44724c5a235 Message-ID: <8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com> From: "David A. Bryan" To: Marshall Eubanks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:33:16 -0000 I think the discussion still leads back to the open question from the Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live streaming or getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a movie, for example). At the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was still an open question. If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs chunks, reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is concerned about the location of peers with chunks, finding the appropriate chunks, and possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time issues wouldn't be covered in this group. If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to the above, you would need to discuss the real-time issues that folks are bringing up in this thread. It would be interesting to see what people think. Which problem is this group looking to solve? David On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote= : > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) wrot= e: > >> Hi Yunfei, >> >> thanks for forwarding to the list. >> >> With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 and MPEG4 (for HDTV). >> As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses these kind of compression for >> broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. >> What kind of codec do you want to use for this purpose? >> >> If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 of the chunks fails, >> then this would cause a severere loss of quality, >> because you would lose a lot of information (every 4th packet), not only= a >> few packets. >> > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to use something like th= e > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as Annex G) of the H.26= 4 > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC allows for degradation rather > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream are lost or dropped= . > > Regards > Marshall > >> Regards >> Christian Schmidt >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> ext zhangyunfei >> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM >> To: ppsp@ietf.org >> Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >> >> I am not sure if Christian's message is received in the mailing list.So >> redirect it.Some replies are inline. >> >> Yunfei >> >> zhangyunfei >> 2009-08-18 >> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) >> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 >> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei >> =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org >> =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >> >> The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. >> >> Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned streaming, which is used f= or >> the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors what parts of a movi= e a >> peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. >> >> Am I right, that one media stream is subdivided into several chunks? >> >> Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming is partitioned int= o >> chunks which are distributed and stored by the widespread peers. >> >> Can you describe, how the distribution of a compressed media stream into >> several chunks can be achieved? >> >> I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When does it happen?How to >> play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway the partition proces= s >> should be independent of the compression process as I understand. >> >> What happens, if one of the required chunk sources drop during a PPSP >> session? Partial or complete new chunk discovery? What happens to the st= ream >> in between? >> >> In general there is no need of new chunk discovery in case of chunk sour= ce >> drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet drop.And this is the re= ason >> why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. >> >> What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You mean what happens to >> the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? >> >> Regards >> Christian Schmidt >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > From victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com Tue Aug 18 07:42:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D2D3A6B04 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:42:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.433 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.433 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.166, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cP2Hq9PHpTVq for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f206.google.com (mail-ew0-f206.google.com [209.85.219.206]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA5FD3A6831 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ewy2 with SMTP id 2so633119ewy.43 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:42:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xK7Xw4mVHP/hF1ksp5LygR9KS8QqEQDAVFEU8W5vQNA=; b=QahAZ11kOTab9VCIdm60qvjjK9dPxs46/cZE0o7MfmRqOykv//pLPlB3lKZkQaLx+I 9Q5WgTaDEUKVTvViDhAy9W0Oc/rfAIyzY+iGcuhCjGB6M952Bk3Y3UfwbtQKQvc6A6Gz 2vSYEPNboEzAsXkwAaKwjZUK6AuFa+j72WC98= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=w1Elr+smvxrKjUcIAC2Jq9tJCw6OXXNCwHwf+RpPVDw4rCvorqIFNzCalNlo01OPYX 2Db0cuFalDeL2QtpmzHQUK0Fw29gafrtagSJXiv21SnhR2W0IvF1dGW5Z1JbIoCjNvYz CJ1Fktp42N12VoL6ML5SYJG2FhFou1GAQUwxQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.45.206 with SMTP id p56mr1309142web.88.1250606543290; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:42:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com> References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com> <0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv> <8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:42:23 +0200 Message-ID: <618e24240908180742n6f3e01e1if2dcda965a5706eb@mail.gmail.com> From: Victor Pascual Avila To: "David A. Bryan" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:42:21 -0000 2009/8/18 David A. Bryan : > I think the discussion still leads back to the open question from the > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live streaming or > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a movie, for example). At > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was still an open > question. > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs chunks, > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is concerned about > the location of peers with chunks, finding the appropriate chunks, and > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time issues > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to the above, you > would need to discuss the real-time issues that folks are bringing up > in this thread. > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which problem is > this group looking to solve? Last December I sent my personal (and general) thoughts on the P2P streaming problem statement, comments are welcome. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/current/msg00081.html Cheers, --=20 Victor Pascual =C3=81vila From lucyyong@huawei.com Tue Aug 18 14:39:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AAD728C206 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:39:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.267, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a4fy3Aq0eNJr for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga02-in.huawei.com (usaga02-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A095C3A6B37 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usaga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOL009J2DFULI@usaga02-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from y736742 ([10.124.12.61]) by usaga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KOL002IFDFR6G@usaga02-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:38:14 -0500 From: Yong Lucy In-reply-to: <618e24240908180742n6f3e01e1if2dcda965a5706eb@mail.gmail.com> To: 'Victor Pascual Avila' , "'David A. Bryan'" Message-id: <005b01ca204c$317dc5d0$3d0c7c0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcogEnxGdziSyZx5TLy+20edoh3YgwANYyzg References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com> <0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv> <8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com> <618e24240908180742n6f3e01e1if2dcda965a5706eb@mail.gmail.com> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:39:46 -0000 Hi All, This is my view. The incentive for downloading a streaming from multiple sources is that each source may not be able to transmit a streaming fast enough as needed by the receiver. Therefore, that multiple sources send chunks at the same time provides the opportunity to meet the receiver = need. Another motivation is that live editing a streaming for the end viewer, which requests to get churns from difference sources. As folks point = out, the applications introduce some issues that a receiver has to deal with = in order to make it work well.=20 If this is a practical need in today's network, then we certainly can develop some smart receiver functions/protocol to make it work. That is = the working group jobs. Now, we need a clear problem statement and = motivation that most of people can agree on and like to work on.=20 Regards, Lucy=20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Victor Pascual Avila Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:42 AM To: David A. Bryan Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP 2009/8/18 David A. Bryan : > I think the discussion still leads back to the open question from the > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live streaming or > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a movie, for example). At > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was still an open > question. > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs chunks, > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is concerned about > the location of peers with chunks, finding the appropriate chunks, and > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time issues > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to the above, you > would need to discuss the real-time issues that folks are bringing up > in this thread. > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which problem is > this group looking to solve? Last December I sent my personal (and general) thoughts on the P2P streaming problem statement, comments are welcome. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/current/msg00081.html Cheers, --=20 Victor Pascual =C1vila _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Tue Aug 18 21:13:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 484893A6890 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:13:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.157 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.157 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.784, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VkF6uBSM4i8k for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4983A697B for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.0.74]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009081912130435-7032 ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:13:04 +0800 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:13:02 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <200908191213024539535@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-19 12:13:04, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-19 12:13:14, Serialize complete at 2009-08-19 12:13:14 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon413044025718_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:13:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon413044025718_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6DFC3A69AE for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:15:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.732, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_75=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FGX5BpPTyZX8 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0030E3A697B for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.0.74]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009081912150360-7070 ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:15:03 +0800 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:15:01 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Marshall Eubanks" , "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com> <0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv> Message-ID: <200908191215015784841@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-19 12:15:03, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-19 12:15:12, Serialize complete at 2009-08-19 12:15:12 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon168481258651_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:15:07 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon168481258651_===== 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cHNwICZuYnNwO21haWxpbmcgJm5ic3A7bGlzdDwvRElWPg0KPERJVj4mZ3Q7ICZuYnNwO3Bwc3BA aWV0Zi5vcmc8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+Jmd0OyANCiZuYnNwO2h0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcHBzcDwvRElWPjwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K --=====003_Dragon168481258651_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Tue Aug 18 21:21:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384693A67DF for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:21:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.059 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.059 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.686, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RuJvBH83BeUW for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36BEF28C0DD for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.0.74]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009081912211836-7157 ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:21:18 +0800 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:21:16 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "David A. Bryan" , "Marshall Eubanks" References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv> <8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200908191221165003989@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-19 12:21:18, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-19 12:21:27, Serialize complete at 2009-08-19 12:21:27 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon160574520313_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:21:23 -0000 This is a multi-part 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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.512 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.512 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.048, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id shi7BlY+E5CU for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 00:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [217.115.75.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568193A6A06 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 00:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7J6QS22022365 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:26:28 +0200 Received: from demuexc022.nsn-intra.net (demuexc022.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.35]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7J6QS4p018036; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:26:28 +0200 Received: from CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.192.12]) by demuexc022.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:26:27 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA2095.F7710539" Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:26:21 +0800 Message-ID: <5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: <200908191221165003989@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Thread-Index: AcoghIlrbu4yIzL+R9WyBhUJAUiZTgACi9iw References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com> <200908191221165003989@chinamobile.com> From: "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" To: "ext zhangyunfei" , "David A. Bryan" , "Marshall Eubanks" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2009 06:26:27.0861 (UTC) FILETIME=[FBB48C50:01CA2095] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 07:33:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA2095.F7710539 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from different peers, = there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P on-demand = streaming in this level.=20 =20 Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a = certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles the = chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully downloaded. = =20 The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the = downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time = video the start point of the downloading is related to current time, = while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of the movie or = where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time system may be = more sensitive to the length of a time range. However, these could be = configured by different applications themselves. =20 So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP protocol for both = systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be = proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. =20 BR Lin Xiao ________________________________ From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More = discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I think in the = signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming = should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of pre-recorded = streaming.Of course there are many different requirements to realize the = whole systems for live streaming and pre-recorded streaming. =20 Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2009-08-19 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP =20 I think the discussion still leads back to the open question = from the Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live = streaming or getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a movie, for = example). At the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was still = an open question. =20 If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs chunks, reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is concerned = about the location of peers with chunks, finding the appropriate = chunks, and possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time issues wouldn't be covered in this group. =20 If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to the = above, you would need to discuss the real-time issues that folks are = bringing up in this thread. =20 It would be interesting to see what people think. Which = problem is this group looking to solve? =20 David =20 =20 On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks = wrote: > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) wrote: > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 and MPEG4 = (for HDTV). > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses these kind of = compression for > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this purpose? > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 of = the chunks fails, > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > because you would lose a lot of information (every 4th = packet), not only a > > few packets. > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to use = something like the > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as Annex = G) of the H.264 > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC allows for = degradation rather > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream are = lost or dropped. > > Regards > Marshall > > > Regards > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of > > ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in the = mailing list.So > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-18 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned streaming, = which is used for > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors what = parts of a movie a > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is subdivided into = several chunks? > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming is = partitioned into > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the widespread = peers. > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a compressed = media stream into > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When does it = happen?How to > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway the = partition process > > should be independent of the compression process as I = understand. > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources drop = during a PPSP > > session? Partial or complete new chunk discovery? What = happens to the stream > > in between? > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery in = case of chunk source > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet drop.And = this is the reason > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You mean = what happens to > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > Regards > > Christian Schmidt > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA2095.F7710539 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from different = peers,=20 there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P on-demand = streaming in this level.
 
Both of the two systems need find and download chunks = to=20 fulfill a certain time range and then another in order.The = player=20 reassembles the chunks and starts to play once the=20 first time range is fully downloaded. 
 
The main differences, I think, are where the start point = of the=20 downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time = video the=20 start point of the downloading is related to current time, while for = on-demand=20 system it always from the beginning of the movie or where the user want = it to=20 start. Moreover, the real time system may be more sensitive to the = length=20 of a time range. However, these could be configured = by different=20 applications themselves.
 
So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP = protocol=20 for both systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming = could be=20 proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary.
 
BR
Lin Xiao

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20 zhangyunfei
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 = PM
To:=20 David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks
Cc: = ppsp@ietf.org
Subject:=20 Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP

Yes, I agree with = David's=20 opinion.This is an open question.More discussions are needed in the = mailing=20 list. Personally I think in the signaling level, the requirement for the = protocol of live streaming = should NATUALLY back-compatible meet=20 the requirements of pre-recorded streaming.Of course there are many = different=20 requirements to realize the whole systems for live streaming and = pre-recorded=20 streaming.
 
          &nbs= p;   =20 Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
2009-08-19
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A.=20 Bryan
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA=20 2009-08-18 22:33:28
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall=20 Eubanks
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning=20 of Chunk for PPSP
 
I  think  the  discussion  still  leads =  back=20  to  the  open  question  from  the
Stockholm  meeting  of  whether  we  are=20  talking  about  live  streaming  or
getting  chunks  of  a  pre-recorded =  video=20  file  (a  movie,  for  example). =  At
the  end  of  the  meeting,  the =  chairs=20  noted  that  this  was  still  an=20  open
question.
 
If  we  are  getting  a  pre-recorded =  file,=20  then  one  grabs  chunks,
reassembles  locally,  and  plays  --  the =  group  then  is  concerned  about
the  location  of  peers  with  chunks,=20  finding  the  appropriate  chunks,  and
possibly  the  protocol  to  obtain  them, =  but  the  real  time  issues
wouldn't  be  covered  in  this =  group.
 
If  it  is  about  true  live =  streaming,=20  then  in  addition  to  the  above,=20  you
would  need  to  discuss  the  real-time=20  issues  that  folks  are  bringing =  up
in  this  thread.
 
It  would  be  interesting  to  see =  what=20  people  think.  Which  problem  is
this  group  looking  to  solve?
 
David
 
 
On  Tue,  Aug  18,  2009  at  5:55 =  AM,=20  Marshall  Eubanks <tme@americafree.tv > =  wrote:
>
>  On  Aug  18,  2009,  at  5:17 =  AM,=20  Schmidt,  Christian  1.  (NSN  - =  DE/Munich)=20  wrote:
>
> >  Hi  Yunfei,
> >
> >  thanks  for  forwarding  to =  the=20  list.
> >
> >  With  compressed  media,  I =  thought=20  about  MPEG2  and  MPEG4  (for =  HDTV).
> >  As  far  as  I  know, =  digial=20  broadcasting  uses  these  kind  of =  compression=20  for
> >  broadcasting  to  reduce  needed=20  bandwith.
> >  What  kind  of  codec  do =  you=20  want  to  use  for  this  purpose?
> >
> >  If  you  devide  one  media=20  stream  into  4  chunks  and  1  of=20  the  chunks  fails,
> >  then  this  would  cause  a=20  severere  loss  of  quality,
> >  because  you  would  lose  a =  lot=20  of  information  (every  4th  packet), =  not=20  only  a
> >  few  packets.
> >
>
>  It  sounds  that  it  would=20  appropriate  in  this  case  to  use=20  something  like  the
>  Scalable  Video  Coding  (SVC) =  extension=20  (also  known  as  Annex  G)  of  the =  H.264
>  video  codec  now  in  common =  use=20  for  IPTV.  SVC  allows  for  degradation =  rather
>  than  complete  loss  of  quality =  if=20  "chunks"  of  a  stream  are  lost =  or=20  dropped.
>
>  Regards
>  Marshall
>
> >  Regards
> >  Christian  Schmidt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  From:  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]  On  Behalf =  Of
> >  ext  zhangyunfei
> >  Sent:  Tuesday,  August  18, =  2009=20  10:51  AM
> >  To:  ppsp@ietf.org
> >  Subject:  [ppsp]  Fw:  Meaning =  of=20  Chunk  for  PPSP
> >
> >  I  am  not  sure  if =  Christian's=20  message  is  received  in  the  mailing=20  list.So
> >  redirect  it.Some  replies  are=20  inline.
> >
> >                 =  =20            Yunfei
> >
> >  zhangyunfei
> >  2009-08-18
> >  =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  Schmidt, =  Christian  1.  (NSN=20  -  DE/Munich)
> >  =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA  2009-08-18 =  16:10:55
> >  =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  ext =  zhangyunfei
> >  =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org
> >  =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA  Meaning  of =  Chunk  for=20  PPSP
> >
> >  The  meaning  of  a  chunk =  needs=20  further  clarification.
> >
> >  Chunk:  A  chunk  is  a =  basic=20  unit  of  partitioned  streaming,  which =  is=20  used  for
> >  the  purpose  of  storage  and=20  advertising  to  neighbors  what  parts =  of=20  a  movie  a
> >  peer  holds  [Sigcomm:P2P =  streaming].
> >
> >  Am  I  right,  that  one =  media=20  stream  is  subdivided  into  several=20  chunks?
> >
> >  Yes,you  are  right.As  is =  stated=20  in  the  paper,streaming  is  partitioned=20  into
> >  chunks  which  are  distributed =  and=20  stored  by  the  widespread  peers.
> >
> >  Can  you  describe,  how  the=20  distribution  of  a  compressed  media =  stream=20  into
> >  several  chunks  can  be=20  achieved?
> >
> >  I  am  not  quite  clear =  about=20  "compressed  media".When  does  it  happen?How =  to
> >  play  a  compressed  media =  stream=20  in  the  player?Anyway  the  partition=20  process
> >  should  be  independent  of =  the=20  compression  process  as  I  understand.
> >
> >  What  happens,  if  one  of =  the=20  required  chunk  sources  drop  during  a =  PPSP
> >  session?  Partial  or  complete =  new=20  chunk  discovery?  What  happens  to  the =  stream
> >  in  between?
> >
> >  In  general  there  is  no =  need=20  of  new  chunk  discovery  in  case =  of=20  chunk  source
> >  drop  because  streaming  is =  tolerent=20  to  the  packet  drop.And  this  is =  the=20  reason
> >  why  most  P2P  streaming =  applications=20  use  UDP  directly.
> >
> >  What  do  you  mean  of =  the=20  last  question,Christian?You  mean  what =  happens=20  to
> >  the  playing  stream  in  case =  of=20  chunk  drop  or  what?
> >
> >  Regards
> >  Christian  Schmidt
> >
> > =  _______________________________________________
> >  ppsp  mailing  list
> >  ppsp@ietf.org
> >  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  ppsp  mailing  list
>  ppsp@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>
_______________________________________________
ppsp  mailing  list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
= ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA2095.F7710539-- From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Wed Aug 19 01:16:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F9B28C0EB for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:16:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.924, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ikMXYgBaJHWj for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [217.115.75.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 652803A6A53 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7J7vHcO007636 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 19 Aug 2009 09:57:17 +0200 Received: from demuexc024.nsn-intra.net (demuexc024.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.11]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7J7vGZ9029671; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 09:57:16 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc024.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 19 Aug 2009 09:57:16 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA20A2.AB46B33D" Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 09:57:16 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Thread-Index: AcoghIlrbu4yIzL+R9WyBhUJAUiZTgACi9iwAARtgiA= References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com><200908191221165003989@chinamobile.com> <5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" , "ext zhangyunfei" , "David A. Bryan" , "Marshall Eubanks" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2009 07:57:16.0814 (UTC) FILETIME=[AB88CAE0:01CA20A2] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:16:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA20A2.AB46B33D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would complicate the = system a lot. =20 - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like stop/start, = slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... - How to mange the following situation:=20 . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. . User B download this move via User A. . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt presentation or skip = parts of the movie? =20 So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server and peers. = Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming from initial = goals. If needed, this could be added later. =20 Regards Christian =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from different peers, = there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P on-demand = streaming in this level.=20 =20 Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a = certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles the = chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully downloaded. = =20 The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the = downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time = video the start point of the downloading is related to current time, = while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of the movie or = where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time system may be = more sensitive to the length of a time range. However, these could be = configured by different applications themselves. =20 So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP protocol for both = systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be = proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. =20 BR Lin Xiao ________________________________ From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More = discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I think in the = signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming = should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of pre-recorded = streaming.Of course there are many different requirements to realize the = whole systems for live streaming and pre-recorded streaming. =20 Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2009-08-19 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP =20 I think the discussion still leads back to the open question = from the Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live = streaming or getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a movie, for = example). At the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was still = an open question. =20 If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs chunks, reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is concerned = about the location of peers with chunks, finding the appropriate = chunks, and possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time issues wouldn't be covered in this group. =20 If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to the = above, you would need to discuss the real-time issues that folks are = bringing up in this thread. =20 It would be interesting to see what people think. Which = problem is this group looking to solve? =20 David =20 =20 On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks = wrote: > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) wrote: > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 and MPEG4 = (for HDTV). > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses these kind of = compression for > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this purpose? > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 of = the chunks fails, > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > because you would lose a lot of information (every 4th = packet), not only a > > few packets. > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to use = something like the > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as Annex = G) of the H.264 > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC allows for = degradation rather > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream are = lost or dropped. > > Regards > Marshall > > > Regards > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of > > ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in the = mailing list.So > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-18 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned streaming, = which is used for > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors what = parts of a movie a > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is subdivided into = several chunks? > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming is = partitioned into > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the widespread = peers. > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a compressed = media stream into > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When does it = happen?How to > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway the = partition process > > should be independent of the compression process as I = understand. > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources drop = during a PPSP > > session? Partial or complete new chunk discovery? What = happens to the stream > > in between? > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery in = case of chunk source > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet drop.And = this is the reason > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You mean = what happens to > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > Regards > > Christian Schmidt > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA20A2.AB46B33D Content-Type: text/html; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Additional requirements for on-demand = streaming would=20 complicate the system a lot.
 
- In on-demand streaming system, you have = functions=20 like stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back,=20 repeat....
- How to mange the following situation:=20
    . User A download an = on-demand=20 stream for a movie.
    . User B download this = move via User=20 A.
    . What to do with User B, = if User A=20 interrupt presentation or skip parts of the = movie?
 
So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to = content=20 server and peers. Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand = streaming from=20 initial goals. If needed, this could be added later.
 
Regards
Christian
 
 
 

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN -=20 CN/Beijing)
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 = AM
To: ext=20 zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks
Cc:=20 ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for=20 PPSP

As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from different = peers,=20 there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P on-demand = streaming in this level.
 
Both of the two systems need find and download chunks = to=20 fulfill a certain time range and then another in order.The = player=20 reassembles the chunks and starts to play once the=20 first time range is fully downloaded. 
 
The main differences, I think, are where the start point = of the=20 downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time = video the=20 start point of the downloading is related to current time, while for = on-demand=20 system it always from the beginning of the movie or where the user want = it to=20 start. Moreover, the real time system may be more sensitive to the = length=20 of a time range. However, these could be configured = by different=20 applications themselves.
 
So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP = protocol=20 for both systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming = could be=20 proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary.
 
BR
Lin Xiao

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20 zhangyunfei
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 = PM
To:=20 David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks
Cc: = ppsp@ietf.org
Subject:=20 Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP

Yes, I agree with = David's=20 opinion.This is an open question.More discussions are needed in the = mailing=20 list. Personally I think in the signaling level, the requirement for the = protocol of live streaming = should NATUALLY back-compatible meet=20 the requirements of pre-recorded streaming.Of course there are many = different=20 requirements to realize the whole systems for live streaming and = pre-recorded=20 streaming.
 
          &nbs= p;   =20 Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
2009-08-19
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A.=20 Bryan
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA=20 2009-08-18 22:33:28
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall=20 Eubanks
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning=20 of Chunk for PPSP
 
I  think  the  discussion  still  leads =  back=20  to  the  open  question  from  the
Stockholm  meeting  of  whether  we  are=20  talking  about  live  streaming  or
getting  chunks  of  a  pre-recorded =  video=20  file  (a  movie,  for  example). =  At
the  end  of  the  meeting,  the =  chairs=20  noted  that  this  was  still  an=20  open
question.
 
If  we  are  getting  a  pre-recorded =  file,=20  then  one  grabs  chunks,
reassembles  locally,  and  plays  --  the =  group  then  is  concerned  about
the  location  of  peers  with  chunks,=20  finding  the  appropriate  chunks,  and
possibly  the  protocol  to  obtain  them, =  but  the  real  time  issues
wouldn't  be  covered  in  this =  group.
 
If  it  is  about  true  live =  streaming,=20  then  in  addition  to  the  above,=20  you
would  need  to  discuss  the  real-time=20  issues  that  folks  are  bringing =  up
in  this  thread.
 
It  would  be  interesting  to  see =  what=20  people  think.  Which  problem  is
this  group  looking  to  solve?
 
David
 
 
On  Tue,  Aug  18,  2009  at  5:55 =  AM,=20  Marshall  Eubanks <tme@americafree.tv > =  wrote:
>
>  On  Aug  18,  2009,  at  5:17 =  AM,=20  Schmidt,  Christian  1.  (NSN  - =  DE/Munich)=20  wrote:
>
> >  Hi  Yunfei,
> >
> >  thanks  for  forwarding  to =  the=20  list.
> >
> >  With  compressed  media,  I =  thought=20  about  MPEG2  and  MPEG4  (for =  HDTV).
> >  As  far  as  I  know, =  digial=20  broadcasting  uses  these  kind  of =  compression=20  for
> >  broadcasting  to  reduce  needed=20  bandwith.
> >  What  kind  of  codec  do =  you=20  want  to  use  for  this  purpose?
> >
> >  If  you  devide  one  media=20  stream  into  4  chunks  and  1  of=20  the  chunks  fails,
> >  then  this  would  cause  a=20  severere  loss  of  quality,
> >  because  you  would  lose  a =  lot=20  of  information  (every  4th  packet), =  not=20  only  a
> >  few  packets.
> >
>
>  It  sounds  that  it  would=20  appropriate  in  this  case  to  use=20  something  like  the
>  Scalable  Video  Coding  (SVC) =  extension=20  (also  known  as  Annex  G)  of  the =  H.264
>  video  codec  now  in  common =  use=20  for  IPTV.  SVC  allows  for  degradation =  rather
>  than  complete  loss  of  quality =  if=20  "chunks"  of  a  stream  are  lost =  or=20  dropped.
>
>  Regards
>  Marshall
>
> >  Regards
> >  Christian  Schmidt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  From:  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]  On  Behalf =  Of
> >  ext  zhangyunfei
> >  Sent:  Tuesday,  August  18, =  2009=20  10:51  AM
> >  To:  ppsp@ietf.org
> >  Subject:  [ppsp]  Fw:  Meaning =  of=20  Chunk  for  PPSP
> >
> >  I  am  not  sure  if =  Christian's=20  message  is  received  in  the  mailing=20  list.So
> >  redirect  it.Some  replies  are=20  inline.
> >
> >                 =  =20            Yunfei
> >
> >  zhangyunfei
> >  2009-08-18
> >  =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  Schmidt, =  Christian  1.  (NSN=20  -  DE/Munich)
> >  =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA  2009-08-18 =  16:10:55
> >  =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  ext =  zhangyunfei
> >  =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org
> >  =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA  Meaning  of =  Chunk  for=20  PPSP
> >
> >  The  meaning  of  a  chunk =  needs=20  further  clarification.
> >
> >  Chunk:  A  chunk  is  a =  basic=20  unit  of  partitioned  streaming,  which =  is=20  used  for
> >  the  purpose  of  storage  and=20  advertising  to  neighbors  what  parts =  of=20  a  movie  a
> >  peer  holds  [Sigcomm:P2P =  streaming].
> >
> >  Am  I  right,  that  one =  media=20  stream  is  subdivided  into  several=20  chunks?
> >
> >  Yes,you  are  right.As  is =  stated=20  in  the  paper,streaming  is  partitioned=20  into
> >  chunks  which  are  distributed =  and=20  stored  by  the  widespread  peers.
> >
> >  Can  you  describe,  how  the=20  distribution  of  a  compressed  media =  stream=20  into
> >  several  chunks  can  be=20  achieved?
> >
> >  I  am  not  quite  clear =  about=20  "compressed  media".When  does  it  happen?How =  to
> >  play  a  compressed  media =  stream=20  in  the  player?Anyway  the  partition=20  process
> >  should  be  independent  of =  the=20  compression  process  as  I  understand.
> >
> >  What  happens,  if  one  of =  the=20  required  chunk  sources  drop  during  a =  PPSP
> >  session?  Partial  or  complete =  new=20  chunk  discovery?  What  happens  to  the =  stream
> >  in  between?
> >
> >  In  general  there  is  no =  need=20  of  new  chunk  discovery  in  case =  of=20  chunk  source
> >  drop  because  streaming  is =  tolerent=20  to  the  packet  drop.And  this  is =  the=20  reason
> >  why  most  P2P  streaming =  applications=20  use  UDP  directly.
> >
> >  What  do  you  mean  of =  the=20  last  question,Christian?You  mean  what =  happens=20  to
> >  the  playing  stream  in  case =  of=20  chunk  drop  or  what?
> >
> >  Regards
> >  Christian  Schmidt
> >
> > =  _______________________________________________
> >  ppsp  mailing  list
> >  ppsp@ietf.org
> >  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  ppsp  mailing  list
>  ppsp@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>
_______________________________________________
ppsp  mailing  list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
= ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA20A2.AB46B33D-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Aug 19 01:19:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83AB43A683D for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:19:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -93.377 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-93.377 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.288, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8gTfJLvpJVgt for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BC33A68C6 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009081916165302-12106 ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 16:16:53 +0800 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 16:16:50 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" , "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" , "David A. Bryan" , "Marshall Eubanks" References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@ame ricafree.tv><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com><2 00908191221165003989@chinamobile.com> <5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> Message-ID: <200908191616502038210@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-19 16:17:03, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-19 16:19:31, Serialize complete at 2009-08-19 16:19:31 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon383437323754_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370FA28C0E1 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:51:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.879 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.879 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.057, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GLKfdjmjT33a for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [217.115.75.234]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 225053A68E6 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7J8pCl7011379 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:51:12 +0200 Received: from demuexc022.nsn-intra.net (demuexc022.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.35]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7J8pAvD006821; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:51:11 +0200 Received: from CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.192.12]) by demuexc022.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:51:11 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA20AA.2C516376" Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 16:50:50 +0800 Message-ID: <5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A6845D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: <200908191616502038210@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Thread-Index: AcogpYe4wHyixsJ8RL+ggR7Gk02KyQAAN/zw References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@ame ricafree.tv><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com><2 00908191221165003989@chinamobile.com> <5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> <200908191616502038210@chinamobile.com> From: "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" To: "ext zhangyunfei" , "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" , "David A. Bryan" , "Marshall Eubanks" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2009 08:51:11.0174 (UTC) FILETIME=[335CF660:01CA20AA] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:51:24 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA20AA.2C516376 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agree with Yunfei. =20 IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or VoD, is simply = composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. The issues here are what to = download (to make sure the exact chunks required to be downloaded); = where to download (to find the exact peers with required chunks) and how = to reassemble the chunks and play locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP = tries to solve the first two issues above, i.e.locating the resource and = scheduling the downloading process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, = fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved = by applications locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is = too much difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP.=20 =20 =20 =20 BR Xiao Lin ________________________________ From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - = CN/Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple = sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or forwards = the movie, user B will change to update the peerlist if there is no = enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live streaming.So for = each user at a certain time,there is little diffrerence in signaling = interaction in case of live streaming and VoD streaming. We may explore more in the different points of signaling interaction in = case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should exclude or = include VoD streaming from begining. =20 BR Yunfei ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2009-08-19 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-19 15:57:27 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext zhangyunfei; = David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP =20 Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would complicate the = system a lot. =20 - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like stop/start, = slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... - How to mange the following situation:=20 . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. . User B download this move via User A. . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt presentation or skip = parts of the movie? =20 So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server and peers. = Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming from initial = goals. If needed, this could be added later. =20 Regards Christian =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from different peers, = there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P on-demand = streaming in this level.=20 =20 Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a = certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles the = chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully downloaded. = =20 The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the = downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time = video the start point of the downloading is related to current time, = while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of the movie or = where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time system may be = more sensitive to the length of a time range. However, these could be = configured by different applications themselves. =20 So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP protocol for both = systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be = proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. =20 BR Lin Xiao ________________________________ From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More = discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I think in the = signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming = should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of pre-recorded = streaming.Of course there are many different requirements to realize the = whole systems for live streaming and pre-recorded streaming. =20 Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2009-08-19 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP =20 I think the discussion still leads back to the open question = from the Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live = streaming or getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a movie, for = example). At the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was still = an open question. =20 If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs chunks, reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is concerned = about the location of peers with chunks, finding the appropriate = chunks, and possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time issues wouldn't be covered in this group. =20 If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to the = above, you would need to discuss the real-time issues that folks are = bringing up in this thread. =20 It would be interesting to see what people think. Which = problem is this group looking to solve? =20 David =20 =20 On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks = wrote: > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) wrote: > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 and MPEG4 = (for HDTV). > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses these kind of = compression for > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this purpose? > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 of = the chunks fails, > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > because you would lose a lot of information (every 4th = packet), not only a > > few packets. > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to use = something like the > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as Annex = G) of the H.264 > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC allows for = degradation rather > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream are = lost or dropped. > > Regards > Marshall > > > Regards > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of > > ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in the = mailing list.So > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-18 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned streaming, = which is used for > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors what = parts of a movie a > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is subdivided into = several chunks? > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming is = partitioned into > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the widespread = peers. > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a compressed = media stream into > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When does it = happen?How to > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway the = partition process > > should be independent of the compression process as I = understand. > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources drop = during a PPSP > > session? Partial or complete new chunk discovery? What = happens to the stream > > in between? > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery in = case of chunk source > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet drop.And = this is the reason > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You mean = what happens to > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > Regards > > Christian Schmidt > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA20AA.2C516376 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agree with Yunfei.
 
IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no=20 matter live or VoD, is simply composed = of DOWNLOADING=20 and PLAYING. The issues here are what to download (to make=20 sure the exact chunks required to be downloaded); where to = download=20 (to find the exact peers with required chunks) and how to reassemble the = chunks=20 and play locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the = first two=20 issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the = downloading=20 process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast = motion,=20 going forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by=20 applications locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there = is too=20 much difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP.=20
 
 
 
BR
Xiao Lin

From: ext zhangyunfei=20 [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August = 19, 2009=20 4:17 PM
To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin = (NSN -=20 CN/Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks
Cc:=20 ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for = PPSP

Genearlly = speaking,user B will=20 download the moive from multiple sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once = userA drops=20 the network or forwards the movie, user B will change to update the = peerlist if=20 there is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live = streaming.So=20 for each user at a certain time,there is little diffrerence in signaling = interaction in case of live streaming and VoD streaming.
We may explore more = in the=20 different points of signaling interaction in case of live streaming and = VoD=20 streaming to see if we should exclude or include VoD streaming from=20 begining.
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;   =20 BR
          &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 Yunfei
zhangyunfei
2009-08-19
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. = (NSN - DE/Munich)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA=20 2009-08-19 15:57:27
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN -=20 CN/Beijing); ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall=20 Eubanks
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning=20 of Chunk for PPSP
 
Additional requirements for on-demand = streaming would=20 complicate the system a lot.
 
- In on-demand streaming system, you have = functions=20 like stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back,=20 repeat....
- How to mange the following situation:=20
    . User A download an = on-demand=20 stream for a movie.
    . User B download this = move via User=20 A.
    . What to do with User B, = if User A=20 interrupt presentation or skip parts of the = movie?
 
So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to = content=20 server and peers. Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand = streaming from=20 initial goals. If needed, this could be added later.
 
Regards
Christian
 
 
 

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN -=20 CN/Beijing)
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 = AM
To: ext=20 zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks
Cc:=20 ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for=20 PPSP

As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from different = peers,=20 there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P on-demand = streaming in this level.
 
Both of the two systems need find and download chunks = to=20 fulfill a certain time range and then another in order.The = player=20 reassembles the chunks and starts to play once the=20 first time range is fully downloaded. 
 
The main differences, I think, are where the start point = of the=20 downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time = video the=20 start point of the downloading is related to current time, while for = on-demand=20 system it always from the beginning of the movie or where the user want = it to=20 start. Moreover, the real time system may be more sensitive to the = length=20 of a time range. However, these could be configured = by different=20 applications themselves.
 
So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP = protocol=20 for both systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming = could be=20 proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary.
 
BR
Lin Xiao

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20 zhangyunfei
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 = PM
To:=20 David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks
Cc: = ppsp@ietf.org
Subject:=20 Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP

Yes, I agree with = David's=20 opinion.This is an open question.More discussions are needed in the = mailing=20 list. Personally I think in the signaling level, the requirement for the = protocol of live streaming = should NATUALLY back-compatible meet=20 the requirements of pre-recorded streaming.Of course there are many = different=20 requirements to realize the whole systems for live streaming and = pre-recorded=20 streaming.
 
          &nbs= p;   =20 Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
2009-08-19
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A.=20 Bryan
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA=20 2009-08-18 22:33:28
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall=20 Eubanks
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning=20 of Chunk for PPSP
 
I  think  the  discussion  still  leads =  back=20  to  the  open  question  from  the
Stockholm  meeting  of  whether  we  are=20  talking  about  live  streaming  or
getting  chunks  of  a  pre-recorded =  video=20  file  (a  movie,  for  example). =  At
the  end  of  the  meeting,  the =  chairs=20  noted  that  this  was  still  an=20  open
question.
 
If  we  are  getting  a  pre-recorded =  file,=20  then  one  grabs  chunks,
reassembles  locally,  and  plays  --  the =  group  then  is  concerned  about
the  location  of  peers  with  chunks,=20  finding  the  appropriate  chunks,  and
possibly  the  protocol  to  obtain  them, =  but  the  real  time  issues
wouldn't  be  covered  in  this =  group.
 
If  it  is  about  true  live =  streaming,=20  then  in  addition  to  the  above,=20  you
would  need  to  discuss  the  real-time=20  issues  that  folks  are  bringing =  up
in  this  thread.
 
It  would  be  interesting  to  see =  what=20  people  think.  Which  problem  is
this  group  looking  to  solve?
 
David
 
 
On  Tue,  Aug  18,  2009  at  5:55 =  AM,=20  Marshall  Eubanks <tme@americafree.tv > =  wrote:
>
>  On  Aug  18,  2009,  at  5:17 =  AM,=20  Schmidt,  Christian  1.  (NSN  - =  DE/Munich)=20  wrote:
>
> >  Hi  Yunfei,
> >
> >  thanks  for  forwarding  to =  the=20  list.
> >
> >  With  compressed  media,  I =  thought=20  about  MPEG2  and  MPEG4  (for =  HDTV).
> >  As  far  as  I  know, =  digial=20  broadcasting  uses  these  kind  of =  compression=20  for
> >  broadcasting  to  reduce  needed=20  bandwith.
> >  What  kind  of  codec  do =  you=20  want  to  use  for  this  purpose?
> >
> >  If  you  devide  one  media=20  stream  into  4  chunks  and  1  of=20  the  chunks  fails,
> >  then  this  would  cause  a=20  severere  loss  of  quality,
> >  because  you  would  lose  a =  lot=20  of  information  (every  4th  packet), =  not=20  only  a
> >  few  packets.
> >
>
>  It  sounds  that  it  would=20  appropriate  in  this  case  to  use=20  something  like  the
>  Scalable  Video  Coding  (SVC) =  extension=20  (also  known  as  Annex  G)  of  the =  H.264
>  video  codec  now  in  common =  use=20  for  IPTV.  SVC  allows  for  degradation =  rather
>  than  complete  loss  of  quality =  if=20  "chunks"  of  a  stream  are  lost =  or=20  dropped.
>
>  Regards
>  Marshall
>
> >  Regards
> >  Christian  Schmidt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  From:  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]  On  Behalf =  Of
> >  ext  zhangyunfei
> >  Sent:  Tuesday,  August  18, =  2009=20  10:51  AM
> >  To:  ppsp@ietf.org
> >  Subject:  [ppsp]  Fw:  Meaning =  of=20  Chunk  for  PPSP
> >
> >  I  am  not  sure  if =  Christian's=20  message  is  received  in  the  mailing=20  list.So
> >  redirect  it.Some  replies  are=20  inline.
> >
> >                 =  =20            Yunfei
> >
> >  zhangyunfei
> >  2009-08-18
> >  =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  Schmidt, =  Christian  1.  (NSN=20  -  DE/Munich)
> >  =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA  2009-08-18 =  16:10:55
> >  =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  ext =  zhangyunfei
> >  =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org
> >  =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA  Meaning  of =  Chunk  for=20  PPSP
> >
> >  The  meaning  of  a  chunk =  needs=20  further  clarification.
> >
> >  Chunk:  A  chunk  is  a =  basic=20  unit  of  partitioned  streaming,  which =  is=20  used  for
> >  the  purpose  of  storage  and=20  advertising  to  neighbors  what  parts =  of=20  a  movie  a
> >  peer  holds  [Sigcomm:P2P =  streaming].
> >
> >  Am  I  right,  that  one =  media=20  stream  is  subdivided  into  several=20  chunks?
> >
> >  Yes,you  are  right.As  is =  stated=20  in  the  paper,streaming  is  partitioned=20  into
> >  chunks  which  are  distributed =  and=20  stored  by  the  widespread  peers.
> >
> >  Can  you  describe,  how  the=20  distribution  of  a  compressed  media =  stream=20  into
> >  several  chunks  can  be=20  achieved?
> >
> >  I  am  not  quite  clear =  about=20  "compressed  media".When  does  it  happen?How =  to
> >  play  a  compressed  media =  stream=20  in  the  player?Anyway  the  partition=20  process
> >  should  be  independent  of =  the=20  compression  process  as  I  understand.
> >
> >  What  happens,  if  one  of =  the=20  required  chunk  sources  drop  during  a =  PPSP
> >  session?  Partial  or  complete =  new=20  chunk  discovery?  What  happens  to  the =  stream
> >  in  between?
> >
> >  In  general  there  is  no =  need=20  of  new  chunk  discovery  in  case =  of=20  chunk  source
> >  drop  because  streaming  is =  tolerent=20  to  the  packet  drop.And  this  is =  the=20  reason
> >  why  most  P2P  streaming =  applications=20  use  UDP  directly.
> >
> >  What  do  you  mean  of =  the=20  last  question,Christian?You  mean  what =  happens=20  to
> >  the  playing  stream  in  case =  of=20  chunk  drop  or  what?
> >
> >  Regards
> >  Christian  Schmidt
> >
> > =  _______________________________________________
> >  ppsp  mailing  list
> >  ppsp@ietf.org
> >  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  ppsp  mailing  list
>  ppsp@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>
_______________________________________________
ppsp  mailing  list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
=
------_=_NextPart_001_01CA20AA.2C516376-- From gyuri@kth.se Wed Aug 19 01:54:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBFBC3A6CD4 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:54:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id czUC5qm4471R for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-2.sys.kth.se (smtp-2.sys.kth.se [130.237.32.160]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0903A685E for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-2.sys.kth.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA43D14EE76 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:54:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at kth.se Received: from smtp-2.sys.kth.se ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-2.sys.kth.se [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id d8tEBHy1SoDj for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:54:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [130.237.50.93] (dhcp-50-93.s3.kth.se [130.237.50.93]) by smtp-2.sys.kth.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275F814DC83 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:54:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A8BBDB8.6060203@kth.se> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:54:16 +0200 From: Gyorgy Dan User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com><200908191221165003989@chinamobile.com> <5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:54:39 -0000 On demand streaming has additional functionality, but eventually you might want to integrate on-demand and live streaming (e.g., stop the live stream, watch a previous part, and then jump ahead). What to do then, will we need three protocols, one for live, one for on-demand and for the integration of the two? In my understanding the goal of PPSP is not to develop a p2p live streaming "system", but to develop a "protocol" for the signaling part of p2p media delivery. Given the standardized signaling protocol, people can develop diverse algorithms that implement the logic required for live streaming, on-demand, or a mixture of the two. As far as the signaling part is concerned, I do not see much difference between live and on-demand streaming: locating peers and content seem to be very similar problems in both cases. Sure, the protocol has to be designed to be flexible enough to incorporate both, but this would probably not make things overly complicated. Best regards, György Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would complicate the > system a lot. > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like stop/start, > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > - How to mange the following situation: > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > . User B download this move via User A. > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt presentation or skip > parts of the movie? > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server and peers. > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming from initial > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > Regards > Christian > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > *To:* ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > *Cc:* ppsp@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from different peers, > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P > on-demand streaming in this level. > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully > downloaded. > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time > video the start point of the downloading is related to current time, > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of the movie > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time system may > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However, these could > be configured by different applications themselves. > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP protocol for both > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > BR > Lin Xiao > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *ext zhangyunfei > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > *To:* David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > *Cc:* ppsp@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I think in the > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of pre-recorded > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements to realize > the whole systems for live streaming and pre-recorded streaming. > Yunfei > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > zhangyunfei > 2009-08-19 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *发件人：* David A. Bryan > *发送时间：* 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > *收件人：* Marshall Eubanks > *抄送：* ppsp@ietf.org > *主题：* Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > I think the discussion still leads back to the open question from the > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live streaming or > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a movie, for example). At > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was still an open > question. > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs chunks, > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is concerned about > the location of peers with chunks, finding the appropriate chunks, and > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time issues > wouldn't be covered in this group. > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to the above, you > would need to discuss the real-time issues that folks are bringing up > in this thread. > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which problem is > this group looking to solve? > David > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks > wrote: > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > wrote: > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 and MPEG4 (for HDTV). > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses these kind of > compression for > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this purpose? > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 of the chunks > fails, > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every 4th packet), > not only a > > > few packets. > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to use something > like the > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as Annex G) of the > H.264 > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC allows for degradation > rather > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream are lost or > dropped. > > > > Regards > > Marshall > > > > > Regards > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in the mailing > list.So > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > 2009-08-18 > > > 发件人： Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > > > 发送时间： 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > 收件人： ext zhangyunfei > > > 抄送： ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > 主题： Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned streaming, which is > used for > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors what parts of > a movie a > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is subdivided into several chunks? > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming is > partitioned into > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the widespread peers. > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a compressed media > stream into > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When does it > happen?How to > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway the partition > process > > > should be independent of the compression process as I understand. > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources drop during a PPSP > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk discovery? What happens to > the stream > > > in between? > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery in case of > chunk source > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet drop.And this is > the reason > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You mean what > happens to > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > Regards > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp -- György Dán School of Electrical Engineering KTH Royal Institute of Technology Stockholm, Sweden http://www.ee.kth.se/~gyuri From tme@americafree.tv Wed Aug 19 04:27:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73DB328C3C0 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:27:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.466 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.466 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2RWXndPuHbkc for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.americafree.tv (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC1D43A6D9E for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by mail.americafree.tv (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D76F4851A45; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 07:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <452C09DD-C9B9-41DE-A2BD-9064EFDA98A2@americafree.tv> From: Marshall Eubanks To: "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" In-Reply-To: <5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A6845D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 07:27:21 -0400 References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@ame ricafree.tv><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com><2 00908191221165003989@chinamobile.com> <5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> <200908191616502038210@chinamobile.com> <5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A6845D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 11:27:18 -0000 On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: > Agree with Yunfei. > > IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or VoD, is =20 > simply composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file, just the =20 stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event, there is streaming =20= of video, and no file even exists (and, frequently, there is not even =20= a clear stop time, as the stream will last as long as the event does). =20= I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling level. (If =20= I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time, and I may want the =20 entire movie downloaded. If I am watching the Olympics, the start time =20= may have been days before, the stop time days later, and I am unlikely =20= to want to download the entire period.) Regards Marshall > The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact chunks =20= > required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the exact =20 > peers with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and =20 > play locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first =20 > two issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the =20 > downloading process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast =20 > motion, going forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved =20 > by applications locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there =20= > is too much difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. > > > > BR > Xiao Lin > > From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/=20 > Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple =20 > sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or =20 > forwards the movie, user B will change to update the peerlist if =20 > there is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live =20 > streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little =20 > diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live streaming and =20 > VoD streaming. > We may explore more in the different points of signaling interaction =20= > in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should =20 > exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. > > BR > Yunfei > zhangyunfei > 2009-08-19 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-19 15:57:27 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext = zhangyunfei; David A. =20 > Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would complicate the =20= > system a lot. > > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like stop/start, =20= > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > - How to mange the following situation: > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > . User B download this move via User A. > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt presentation or =20 > skip parts of the movie? > > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server and =20 > peers. Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming =20 > from initial goals. If needed, this could be added later. > > Regards > Christian > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =20= > Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from different =20 > peers, there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and =20 > P2P on-demand streaming in this level. > > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a =20 > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles =20= > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully =20 > downloaded. > > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the =20 > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time =20= > video the start point of the downloading is related to current time, =20= > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of the movie =20= > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time system =20 > may be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However, these =20= > could be configured by different applications themselves. > > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP protocol for =20 > both systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming =20 > could be proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > > BR > Lin Xiao > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =20= > Of ext zhangyunfei > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More =20 > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I think in =20 > the signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live =20 > streaming should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of =20 > pre-recorded streaming.Of course there are many different =20 > requirements to realize the whole systems for live streaming and pre-=20= > recorded streaming. > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > 2009-08-19 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A David A. Bryan > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Marshall Eubanks > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > I think the discussion still leads back to the open =20 > question from the > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live =20 > streaming or > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a movie, for =20= > example). At > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was =20 > still an open > question. > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs =20 > chunks, > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is =20 > concerned about > the location of peers with chunks, finding the appropriate =20= > chunks, and > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time =20 > issues > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to =20 > the above, you > would need to discuss the real-time issues that folks are =20= > bringing up > in this thread. > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which =20 > problem is > this group looking to solve? > > David > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks = > wrote: > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. =20 > (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 and MPEG4 =20= > (for HDTV). > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses these kind =20= > of compression for > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this =20 > purpose? > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 =20 > of the chunks fails, > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every =20 > 4th packet), not only a > > > few packets. > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to =20 > use something like the > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as =20 > Annex G) of the H.264 > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC allows for =20= > degradation rather > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream =20 > are lost or dropped. > > > > Regards > > Marshall > > > > > Regards > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =20 > On Behalf Of > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in =20 > the mailing list.So > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > 2009-08-18 > > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Schmidt, Christian 1. = (NSN - DE/Munich) > > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-18 = 16:10:55 > > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ext zhangyunfei > > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned =20 > streaming, which is used for > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors =20 > what parts of a movie a > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is subdivided into =20= > several chunks? > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming =20 > is partitioned into > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the =20 > widespread peers. > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a compressed =20= > media stream into > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When =20 > does it happen?How to > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway =20 > the partition process > > > should be independent of the compression process as I =20= > understand. > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources =20 > drop during a PPSP > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk discovery? What =20= > happens to the stream > > > in between? > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery =20 > in case of chunk source > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet =20 > drop.And this is the reason > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You =20 > mean what happens to > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > Regards > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From tme@americafree.tv Wed Aug 19 04:34:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2075928C2ED for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:34:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.546, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_75=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uikhZVBX2p0B for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.americafree.tv (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42CB3A6E33 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by mail.americafree.tv (Postfix) with ESMTP id D14AE4851D1B; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 07:34:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <7383E150-8F80-4784-B2BF-B5B2C4EA4DFA@americafree.tv> From: Marshall Eubanks To: "zhangyunfei" In-Reply-To: <200908191215015784841@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 07:34:00 -0400 References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com> <0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv> <200908191215015784841@chinamobile.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 11:34:25 -0000 On Aug 19, 2009, at 12:15 AM, zhangyunfei wrote: > > > zhangyunfei > 2009-08-19 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Marshall Eubanks > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-18 17:56:01 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN =20 > - DE/Munich) > wrote: > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 and MPEG4 =20 > (for HDTV). > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses these kind =20 > of compression > > for broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this purpose? > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 of =20= > the chunks > > fails, then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > because you would lose a lot of information (every 4th =20= > packet), not > > only a few packets. > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to use =20 > something like > the Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as =20 > Annex G) of > the H.264 video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC =20 > allows for > degradation rather than complete loss of quality if =20 > "chunks" of a > stream are lost or dropped. > Exactly!There are such efforts to do this.We are also considering =20 > such codec. However it seems lack of video source with this codec, =20 > which is a problem that is not widely used. This is a new codec, and devices implementing it are just appearing. In my opinion, PPSP should not require any specific codec, but should =20= allow for support of these sorts of advanced features. For example, I =20= should be able to receive a lower bit rate with a layered codec, if I =20= have less bandwidth to apply to stream. In native multicast, this =20 would be done by putting the different layers on different multicast =20 groups, and allowing for SDP configuration to select the appropriate =20 layers. FEC is supported in the same fashion. In my opinion. PPSP =20 should support this sort of functionality, and should use the existing =20= Internet infrastructure (such as SDP files to configure stream =20 reception) as much as possible. Regards Marshall > Regards > Marshall > > > Regards > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On =20= > Behalf > > Of ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in =20 > the mailing > > list.So redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-18 > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN = - DE/Munich) > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ext zhangyunfei > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned =20 > streaming, which is > > used for the purpose of storage and advertising to =20 > neighbors what > > parts of a movie a peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is subdivided into =20 > several chunks? > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming is =20= > partitioned > > into chunks which are distributed and stored by the =20 > widespread peers. > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a compressed =20 > media stream > > into several chunks can be achieved? > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When does =20= > it happen? > > How to play a compressed media stream in the player?=20 > Anyway the > > partition process should be independent of the =20 > compression process > > as I understand. > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources drop =20= > during a > > PPSP session? Partial or complete new chunk discovery? =20 > What happens > > to the stream in between? > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery in =20= > case of chunk > > source drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet =20= > drop.And > > this is the reason why most P2P streaming applications =20 > use UDP > > directly. > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You mean =20= > what > > happens to the playing stream in case of chunk drop or =20= > what? > > > > Regards > > Christian Schmidt > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From dave.mcdysan@verizon.com Wed Aug 19 05:20:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 509CE3A694D for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 05:20:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.659 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.659 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.392, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZRCQ6hBGB2LB for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 05:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sacmail4.verizon.com (sacmail4.verizon.com [192.76.84.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF5E3A6A67 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 05:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpftw3.verizon.com (smtpftw3.verizon.com [138.83.140.92]) by sacmail4.verizon.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n7JCJtRR018779; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ftwccout01.verizon.com (ftwccout01.verizon.com [138.83.131.134]) by smtpftw3.verizon.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n7JCJgGW006071; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:19:55 -0400 (EDT) X-AuditID: 8a538386-b7b68ae000005fbe-c7-4a8bedea2e72 Received: from smtptpa3.verizon.com ( [138.83.71.176]) by ftwccout01.verizon.com (EMF) with SMTP id DB.A5.24510.BEDEB8A4; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:19:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FHDP1CCMXCG01.us.one.verizon.com ([166.68.240.33]) by smtptpa3.verizon.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n7JCJpH4027760; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FHDP1LUMXCV14.us.one.verizon.com ([166.68.125.35]) by FHDP1CCMXCG01.us.one.verizon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:19:51 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:19:01 -0400 Message-ID: <793F49BA1FC821409F99F10862A0E4DB03A63D66@FHDP1LUMXCV14.us.one.verizon.com> In-Reply-To: <452C09DD-C9B9-41DE-A2BD-9064EFDA98A2@americafree.tv> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Thread-Index: AcogwAjYCwz/ZoXlRCCbg+kHo93YqQABiPKw References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com><200908191221165003989@chinamobile.com><5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><200908191616502038210@chinamobile.com><5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A6845D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> <452C09DD-C9B9-41DE-A2BD-9064EFDA98A2@americafree.tv> From: "Mcdysan, David E" To: "Marshall Eubanks" , "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2009 12:19:51.0849 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A445990:01CA20C7] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:20:13 -0000 IMHO, what Marshall states was my perception of the problem being solved = by PPSP from the Bar BoF discussion in Stockholm -- delivery of live = content, which could use multicast groups in portions of the network = where they were available. As Xiao Lin stated in a post earlier today, stop/start, slow motion, = rewind, fast forward, start from beginning can be solved by other = applications (local or remote from the user device), such as the file = transfer implemented by P2P today. There are a number of posts and some comments in the Stockholm meeting = that cited streaming movies as an example, and I think there is already = P2P file transfer technology to meet this need if the DVR type function = is implemented on the user device. There is a potential application for = a DVR style service that is not implemented in the end device, and = implemented in some remote location, but in my opinion this is not = streaming and is a separable problem. Once you have stop/start times and = or forward/rewind or different speeds, multicast cannot be used. Thanks, Dave=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:27 AM > To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 >=20 > On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: >=20 > > Agree with Yunfei. > > > > IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or=20 > VoD, is simply=20 > > composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. >=20 > In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file,=20 > just the stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event,=20 > there is streaming of video, and no file even exists (and,=20 > frequently, there is not even a clear stop time, as the=20 > stream will last as long as the event does). =20 > I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling=20 > level. (If I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time,=20 > and I may want the entire movie downloaded. If I am watching=20 > the Olympics, the start time may have been days before, the=20 > stop time days later, and I am unlikely to want to download=20 > the entire period.) >=20 > Regards > Marshall >=20 > > The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact chunks=20 > > required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the=20 > exact peers=20 > > with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and play=20 > > locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first two=20 > > issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the=20 > downloading=20 > > process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going=20 > > forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by=20 > applications=20 > > locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is too much=20 > > difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. > > > > > > > > BR > > Xiao Lin > > > > From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM > > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/=20 > > Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple=20 > > sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or=20 > > forwards the movie, user B will change to update the=20 > peerlist if there=20 > > is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live=20 > > streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little=20 > > diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live=20 > streaming and VoD=20 > > streaming. > > We may explore more in the different points of signaling=20 > interaction=20 > > in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should=20 > > exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-19 15:57:27 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext = zhangyunfei; David A. =20 > > Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would=20 > complicate the=20 > > system a lot. > > > > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like=20 > stop/start,=20 > > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > > - How to mange the following situation: > > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > > . User B download this move via User A. > > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt=20 > presentation or skip=20 > > parts of the movie? > > > > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server=20 > and peers.=20 > > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming=20 > from initial=20 > > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > > > > Regards > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > > To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from=20 > different peers,=20 > > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P=20 > > on-demand streaming in this level. > > > > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a=20 > > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles=20 > > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully=20 > > downloaded. > > > > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the=20 > > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time=20 > > video the start point of the downloading is related to=20 > current time,=20 > > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of=20 > the movie=20 > > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time=20 > system may=20 > > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However,=20 > these could=20 > > be configured by different applications themselves. > > > > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP=20 > protocol for both=20 > > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be=20 > > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > > > > BR > > Lin Xiao > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More=20 > > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I=20 > think in the=20 > > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming=20 > > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of=20 > pre-recorded=20 > > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements=20 > to realize=20 > > the whole systems for live streaming and pre- recorded streaming. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I think the discussion still leads back to the open =20 > > question from the > > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live =20 > > streaming or > > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a =20 > movie, for =20 > > example). At > > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was =20 > > still an open > > question. > > > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs =20 > > chunks, > > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is =20 > > concerned about > > the location of peers with chunks, finding the =20 > appropriate =20 > > chunks, and > > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time =20 > > issues > > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to =20 > > the above, you > > would need to discuss the real-time issues that =20 > folks are =20 > > bringing up > > in this thread. > > > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which =20 > > problem is > > this group looking to solve? > > > > David > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks=20 > > wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. =20 > > (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 =20 > and MPEG4 =20 > > (for HDTV). > > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses =20 > these kind =20 > > of compression for > > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this =20 > > purpose? > > > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 =20 > > of the chunks fails, > > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every =20 > > 4th packet), not only a > > > > few packets. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to =20 > > use something like the > > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as =20 > > Annex G) of the H.264 > > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC =20 > allows for =20 > > degradation rather > > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream =20 > > are lost or dropped. > > > > > > Regards > > > Marshall > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =20 > > On Behalf Of > > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in =20 > > the mailing list.So > > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > > 2009-08-18 > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned =20 > > streaming, which is used for > > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors =20 > > what parts of a movie a > > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is =20 > subdivided into =20 > > several chunks? > > > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming =20 > > is partitioned into > > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the =20 > > widespread peers. > > > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a =20 > compressed =20 > > media stream into > > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When =20 > > does it happen?How to > > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway =20 > > the partition process > > > > should be independent of the compression process=20 > as I =20 > > understand. > > > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources =20 > > drop during a PPSP > > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk =20 > discovery? What =20 > > happens to the stream > > > > in between? > > > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery =20 > > in case of chunk source > > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet =20 > > drop.And this is the reason > > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You =20 > > mean what happens to > > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ppsp mailing list > > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 From lucyyong@huawei.com Wed Aug 19 09:08:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DCBD3A677D for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 09:08:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.362 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.362 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.237, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gzOx4uhgcviJ for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 09:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga02-in.huawei.com (usaga02-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5EB83A698F for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 09:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usaga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOM00FODSU9JC@usaga02-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 09:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from y736742 ([10.124.12.61]) by usaga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KOM00G9BSU53W@usaga02-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 09:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 11:08:29 -0500 From: Yong Lucy In-reply-to: <452C09DD-C9B9-41DE-A2BD-9064EFDA98A2@americafree.tv> To: 'Marshall Eubanks' , "'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'" Message-id: <00cf01ca20e7$4a931d90$3d0c7c0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcogwEqM/G0AP4bAToSkLhjUM5ZvgAAI5oEQ References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com> <"B846208195B11F4EA16E16BE9DC8A9CC 018E35D5"@DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net> <8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com> <"2 00908191221165003989"@chinamobile.com> <5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> <200908191616502038210@chinamobile.com> <5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A6845D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> <452C09DD-C9B9-41DE-A2BD-9064EFDA98A2@americafree.tv> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 16:08:29 -0000 Hi Marshall, See inline. Regards, Lucy > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 6:27 AM > To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: > > > Agree with Yunfei. > > > > IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or VoD, is > > simply composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. > > In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file, just the > stream. [LY] This is the traditional way to deliver live streaming. On Internet, a live streaming may be delivered as a set of content files with a playlist. Then the difference between live streaming and VoD is that the content files may not exist yet for a live streaming even the playlist already exists (or predicted based on the index rule) while all the content files already and the playlist exist for VoD. In my understanding, the target work here is for a streaming delivered as churns (files). Thus, the work can apply to both live streaming and VoD. But it does not apply to a living streaming that is not delivered as churns. Maybe it is necessary to further clarify this in the charter. [Snipped] From gyuri@kth.se Wed Aug 19 01:27:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA6928C210 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:27:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AwEwf3SQu3IT for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-2.sys.kth.se (smtp-2.sys.kth.se [130.237.32.160]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E193A683D for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-2.sys.kth.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3CCC14EDF1; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:27:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at kth.se Received: from smtp-2.sys.kth.se ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-2.sys.kth.se [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id dqhKJTtlTlpv; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:27:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [130.237.50.93] (dhcp-50-93.s3.kth.se [130.237.50.93]) by smtp-2.sys.kth.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F6214C135; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:26:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A8BB759.50105@kth.se> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:27:05 +0200 From: Gyorgy Dan User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com><200908191221165003989@chinamobile.com> <5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:38:06 -0700 Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:27:31 -0000 On demand streaming has additional functionality, but eventually you might want to integrate on-demand and live streaming (e.g., stop the live stream, watch a previous part, and then jump ahead). What to do then, will we need three protocols, one for live, one for on-demand and for the integration of the two? In my understanding the goal of PPSP is not to develop a p2p live streaming "system", but to develop a "protocol" for the signaling part of p2p media delivery. Given the standardized signaling protocol, people can develop diverse algorithms that implement the logic required for live streaming, on-demand, or a mixture of the two. As far as the signaling part is concerned, I do not see much difference between live and on-demand streaming: locating peers and content seem to be very similar problems in both cases. Sure, the protocol has to be designed to be flexible enough to incorporate both, but this would probably not make things overly complicated. Best regards, György Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would complicate the > system a lot. > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like stop/start, > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > - How to mange the following situation: > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > . User B download this move via User A. > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt presentation or skip > parts of the movie? > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server and peers. > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming from initial > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > Regards > Christian > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > *To:* ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > *Cc:* ppsp@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from different peers, > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P > on-demand streaming in this level. > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully > downloaded. > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time > video the start point of the downloading is related to current time, > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of the movie > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time system may > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However, these could > be configured by different applications themselves. > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP protocol for both > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > BR > Lin Xiao > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *ext zhangyunfei > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > *To:* David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > *Cc:* ppsp@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I think in the > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of pre-recorded > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements to realize > the whole systems for live streaming and pre-recorded streaming. > Yunfei > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > zhangyunfei > 2009-08-19 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *发件人：* David A. Bryan > *发送时间：* 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > *收件人：* Marshall Eubanks > *抄送：* ppsp@ietf.org > *主题：* Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > I think the discussion still leads back to the open question from the > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live streaming or > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a movie, for example). At > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was still an open > question. > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs chunks, > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is concerned about > the location of peers with chunks, finding the appropriate chunks, and > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time issues > wouldn't be covered in this group. > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to the above, you > would need to discuss the real-time issues that folks are bringing up > in this thread. > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which problem is > this group looking to solve? > David > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks > wrote: > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > wrote: > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 and MPEG4 (for HDTV). > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses these kind of > compression for > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this purpose? > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 of the chunks > fails, > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every 4th packet), > not only a > > > few packets. > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to use something > like the > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as Annex G) of the > H.264 > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC allows for degradation > rather > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream are lost or > dropped. > > > > Regards > > Marshall > > > > > Regards > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in the mailing > list.So > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > 2009-08-18 > > > 发件人： Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > > > 发送时间： 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > 收件人： ext zhangyunfei > > > 抄送： ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > 主题： Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned streaming, which is > used for > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors what parts of > a movie a > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is subdivided into several chunks? > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming is > partitioned into > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the widespread peers. > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a compressed media > stream into > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When does it > happen?How to > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway the partition > process > > > should be independent of the compression process as I understand. > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources drop during a PPSP > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk discovery? What happens to > the stream > > > in between? > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery in case of > chunk source > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet drop.And this is > the reason > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You mean what > happens to > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > Regards > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp -- György Dán School of Electrical Engineering KTH Royal Institute of Technology Stockholm, Sweden http://www.ee.kth.se/~gyuri From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Aug 19 18:53:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2B328C419 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:53:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.892 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.892 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.519, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_75=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g6h6GZoe5igY for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8933D28C42C for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.0.25]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009082009532375-2910 ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 09:53:23 +0800 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 09:53:20 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Marshall Eubanks" References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com> <0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv> <200908191215015784841@chinamobile.com> <7383E150-8F80-4784-B2BF-B5B2C4EA4DFA@americafree.tv> Message-ID: <200908200953202656169@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-20 09:53:23, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-20 09:53:41, Serialize complete at 2009-08-20 09:53:41 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon815047725306_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 01:53:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon815047725306_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIE1hcnNoYWxsJ3Mgb3BpbmlvbiBvbiB0aGUgY29kZWMgaXNzdWUuU0RQIG1h eSBiZSBhIG1lYW5zIHRvIG5lZ290aWF0aW5nIHRoZSBwYXJhbWV0ZXJzLg0KDQoNCg0KDQp6aGFu Z3l1bmZlaQ0KMjAwOS0wOC0yMA0KDQoNCg0Kt6K8/sjLo7ogTWFyc2hhbGwgRXViYW5rcw0Kt6LL zcqxvOSjuiAyMDA5LTA4LTE5IDE5OjM0OjA0DQrK1bz+yMujuiB6aGFuZ3l1bmZlaQ0Ks63LzaO6 IFNjaG1pZHQsIENocmlzdGlhbiAxLiAoTlNOIC0gREUvOyBwcHNwQGlldGYub3JnDQrW98zio7og UmU6IFtwcHNwXSBGdzogTWVhbmluZyBvZiBDaHVuayBmb3IgUFBTUA0KDQpPbiAgQXVnICAxOSwg IDIwMDksICBhdCAgMTI6MTUgIEFNLCAgemhhbmd5dW5mZWkgIHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+DQo+DQo+ICB6 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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.630, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_SUBJECT=1.762, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oajURB4RK2Hg for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85CC28C41A for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.0.25]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009082010022461-3209 ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:02:24 +0800 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:02:22 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Yong Lucy" , "'Marshall Eubanks'" , "'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'" References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><"B846208195B11F4EA16E16B E9DC8A9CC 018E35D5"@DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f 82aa6@mail.gmail.com><"2 00908191221165003989"@chinamobile.com><5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681 F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><200908191616502038210@chinamobile.com><5D84FDD8D5DC864 6B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A6845D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><452C09DD-C9B9-41DE-A2BD-9064EFDA98A2@americafr X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-20 10:02:24, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-20 10:02:30, Serialize complete at 2009-08-20 10:02:30 Message-ID: Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: [ppsp] (no subject) X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 02:02:26 -0000 ee.tv> <00cf01ca20e7$4a931d90$3d0c7c0a@china.huawei.com> Subject: Re: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Message-ID: 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Aug 19 19:47:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5EC528C407 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:47:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SaBs9ce-Uifs for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.americafree.tv (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD8F328C280 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by mail.americafree.tv (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B24A4867B70; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:47:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <37BD2B3C-3835-4697-BA5C-E7BA6644C96C@americafree.tv> From: Marshall Eubanks To: zhangyunfei In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:47:13 -0400 References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><"B846208195B11F4EA16E16B E9DC8A9CC 018E35D5"@DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f 82aa6@mail.gmail.com><"2 00908191221165003989"@chinamobile.com><5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681 F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><200908191616502038210@chinamobile.com><5D84FDD8D5DC864 6B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A6845D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><452C09DD-C9B9-41DE-A2BD-9064EFDA98A2@americafr X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] (no subject) X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 02:47:34 -0000 I don't know what this is, but please don't send attachments through IETF lists. Regards Marshall On Aug 19, 2009, at 10:02 PM, zhangyunfei wrote: > ee.tv> <00cf01ca20e7$4a931d90$3d0c7c0a@china.huawei.com> > Subject: Re: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > Message-ID: <200908201002219066022@chinamobile.com> > X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="=====003_Dragon032770315344_=====" > > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > --=====003_Dragon032770315344_===== > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="gb2312" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > > WWVzLEkgdGhpbmsgTHVjeSdzIGV4cGxhaW5hdGlvbiBtYWtlcyB1cyBtb3JlIGNsZWFyIGFib3V0 > IHRoZSB0YXJnZXQgb2YgUFBTUC5XZSBhcmUganVzdCBtb2RpZnlpbmcgdGhlIGNoYXJ0ZXIgYW5k From zongning@huawei.com Wed Aug 19 19:58:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB99D3A6C21 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:58:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.501, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P--pj2Nl901s for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C7028C434 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KON003FIMX4IN@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:58:16 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KON006QIMX4TT@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:58:16 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316 ([10.164.12.81]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KON00HMFMX22S@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:58:16 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:58:14 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: <4A8BB759.50105@kth.se> To: 'Gyorgy Dan' , "'Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)'" Message-id: <001701ca2142$10495540$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcohNubxEL1hpS23Tqq1oPa6SvOUbgACWQcA Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgRnc6IE1lYW5pbmcgb2YgQ2h1bmsgZm9yIFBQ?= =?utf-8?q?SP?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 02:58:23 -0000 I tend to agree on Dan=E2=80=99s opinion. As stated in PPSP problem statement, the functionalities of advanced = play-out characters belong to =E2=80=9CPlay-out Layer=E2=80=9D in the = P2P streaming components architecture. PPSP focus on = =E2=80=9CCommunication Layer=E2=80=9D where the command from = =E2=80=9CPlay-out Layer=E2=80=9D is converted to which chunks are to be = discovered among peers. E.g. if we do jump, the current chunks to be = fetched may change from =E2=80=9CChunk ID 10=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9CChunk = ID 20=E2=80=9D, that=E2=80=99s what the PPSP signaling part needs to = understand. I couldn=E2=80=99t see the strong reason why not include both live = streaming and VoD at the time being. There are some differences, but we = could have a flexible protocol for discovering distributed sources (note = again, we are not defining the whole system). My two cents. BR, Ning Zong -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Gyorgy Dan =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2009=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5 = 16:27 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: ppsp@ietf.org =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP On demand streaming has additional functionality, but eventually you=20 might want to integrate on-demand and live streaming (e.g., stop the=20 live stream, watch a previous part, and then jump ahead). What to do=20 then, will we need three protocols, one for live, one for on-demand and=20 for the integration of the two? In my understanding the goal of PPSP is not to develop a p2p live=20 streaming "system", but to develop a "protocol" for the signaling part=20 of p2p media delivery. Given the standardized signaling protocol, people = can develop diverse algorithms that implement the logic required for=20 live streaming, on-demand, or a mixture of the two. As far as the signaling part is concerned, I do not see much difference=20 between live and on-demand streaming: locating peers and content seem to = be very similar problems in both cases. Sure, the protocol has to be=20 designed to be flexible enough to incorporate both, but this would=20 probably not make things overly complicated. Best regards, Gy=C3=B6rgy Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would complicate the=20 > system a lot. > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like stop/start,=20 > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > - How to mange the following situation: > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > . User B download this move via User A. > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt presentation or skip=20 > parts of the movie? > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server and peers. = > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming from initial = > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > Regards > Christian > > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] *On=20 > Behalf Of *ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > *To:* ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > *Cc:* ppsp@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from different peers,=20 > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P=20 > on-demand streaming in this level. > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a=20 > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles=20 > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully=20 > downloaded. > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the=20 > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time=20 > video the start point of the downloading is related to current time,=20 > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of the movie=20 > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time system may = > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However, these could=20 > be configured by different applications themselves. > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP protocol for both=20 > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be=20 > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > BR > Lin Xiao > > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] *On=20 > Behalf Of *ext zhangyunfei > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > *To:* David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > *Cc:* ppsp@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More=20 > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I think in the=20 > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming=20 > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of pre-recorded=20 > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements to realize=20 > the whole systems for live streaming and pre-recorded streaming. > Yunfei > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > zhangyunfei > 2009-08-19 > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* David A. Bryan > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Marshall Eubanks > *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A* ppsp@ietf.org > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > I think the discussion still leads back to the open question from the > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live streaming or > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a movie, for example). At > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was still an open > question. > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs chunks, > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is concerned about > the location of peers with chunks, finding the appropriate chunks, and > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time issues > wouldn't be covered in this group. > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to the above, you > would need to discuss the real-time issues that folks are bringing up > in this thread. > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which problem is > this group looking to solve? > David > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks > wrote: > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) = > wrote: > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 and MPEG4 (for HDTV). > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses these kind of=20 > compression for > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this purpose? > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 of the chunks=20 > fails, > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every 4th packet),=20 > not only a > > > few packets. > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to use something=20 > like the > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as Annex G) of the = > H.264 > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC allows for degradation=20 > rather > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream are lost or=20 > dropped. > > > > Regards > > Marshall > > > > > Regards > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in the mailing=20 > list.So > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > 2009-08-18 > > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ext zhangyunfei > > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned streaming, which is=20 > used for > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors what parts of=20 > a movie a > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is subdivided into several = chunks? > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming is=20 > partitioned into > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the widespread peers. > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a compressed media=20 > stream into > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When does it=20 > happen?How to > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway the partition=20 > process > > > should be independent of the compression process as I understand. > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources drop during a = PPSP > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk discovery? What happens to=20 > the stream > > > in between? > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery in case of=20 > chunk source > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet drop.And this is=20 > the reason > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You mean what=20 > happens to > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > Regards > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp --=20 Gy=C3=B6rgy D=C3=A1n School of Electrical Engineering KTH Royal Institute of Technology Stockholm, Sweden http://www.ee.kth.se/~gyuri _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Aug 19 20:10:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6250A3A6930 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:10:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.067 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.067 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.548, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_SUBJECT=1.762, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HNVOeUZw1IjM for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by 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Please check it, Yunfei. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED zhangyunfei =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C220=C8=D5 11:10 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Marshall Eubanks =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: [ppsp] (no subject) fr <37BD2B3C-3835-4697-BA5C-E7BA6644C96C@americafree.tv> Subject: Re: Re: Message-ID: <200908201110132658509@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=3D"=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D003_Dragon076352273554_=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D003_Dragon076352273554_=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSAgZG9uJ3QgIGtub3cgIHdoeSAgaXQgIGRvZXNuJ3QgIGRpc3BsYXkgIGNvcnJlY3RseSAgY= Wx0 aG91Z2ggIGl0J3MgIGp1c3QgIHBsYWluICB0ZXh0LlRoZSAgZm9sbG93aW5nICBpcyAgdGhlI= G9y 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PERJVj4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj48L0ZPTlQ+PC9ESVY+PC9CT0RZPjwvSFRNTD4NCg=3D=3D --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D003_Dragon076352273554_=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D-- _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Wed Aug 19 21:41:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB12D3A6929 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:41:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.528, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JAeDtIbzZIvR for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [217.115.75.234]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DEA03A6AE3 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7K4f53F028987 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 20 Aug 2009 06:41:05 +0200 Received: from demuexc024.nsn-intra.net (demuexc024.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.11]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7K4f40S022371; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 06:41:04 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc024.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 20 Aug 2009 06:41:04 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 06:41:04 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <793F49BA1FC821409F99F10862A0E4DB03A63D66@FHDP1LUMXCV14.us.one.verizon.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Thread-Index: AcogwAjYCwz/ZoXlRCCbg+kHo93YqQABiPKwACHOpyA= References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com><200908191221165003989@chinamobile.com><5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><200908191616502038210@chinamobile.com><5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A6845D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><452C09DD-C9B9-41DE-A2BD-9064EFDA98A2@americafree.tv> <793F49BA1FC821409F99F10862A0E4DB03A63D66@FHDP1LUMXCV14.us.one.verizon.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext Mcdysan, David E" , "Marshall Eubanks" , "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Aug 2009 04:41:04.0683 (UTC) FILETIME=[6D35E7B0:01CA2150] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 04:41:06 -0000 Hi Dave, I think thats a good approach for the problem. We should distinguish = between: Live Streaming (e.g. TV Broadcast): - The user can connect / disconnect to a video stream (no influence to = the video stream with start/stop, forward/rewind). - The user can either just watch the programm or additional store the = information in a file (DVR). - The file would be available for further proceedings.=20 File Sharing: - The user can download files containing video material. - The user can imidiately start to display the content. - The file is available for further proceedings. The File Sharing case is allready covered by p2p technique available = today.=20 Therefore, PPSP should focus on the Live Streaming case. Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Mcdysan, David E Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:19 PM To: Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP IMHO, what Marshall states was my perception of the problem being solved = by PPSP from the Bar BoF discussion in Stockholm -- delivery of live = content, which could use multicast groups in portions of the network = where they were available. As Xiao Lin stated in a post earlier today, stop/start, slow motion, = rewind, fast forward, start from beginning can be solved by other = applications (local or remote from the user device), such as the file = transfer implemented by P2P today. There are a number of posts and some comments in the Stockholm meeting = that cited streaming movies as an example, and I think there is already = P2P file transfer technology to meet this need if the DVR type function = is implemented on the user device. There is a potential application for = a DVR style service that is not implemented in the end device, and = implemented in some remote location, but in my opinion this is not = streaming and is a separable problem. Once you have stop/start times and = or forward/rewind or different speeds, multicast cannot be used. Thanks, Dave=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:27 AM > To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 >=20 > On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: >=20 > > Agree with Yunfei. > > > > IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or=20 > VoD, is simply=20 > > composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. >=20 > In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file,=20 > just the stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event,=20 > there is streaming of video, and no file even exists (and,=20 > frequently, there is not even a clear stop time, as the=20 > stream will last as long as the event does). =20 > I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling=20 > level. (If I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time,=20 > and I may want the entire movie downloaded. If I am watching=20 > the Olympics, the start time may have been days before, the=20 > stop time days later, and I am unlikely to want to download=20 > the entire period.) >=20 > Regards > Marshall >=20 > > The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact chunks=20 > > required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the=20 > exact peers=20 > > with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and play=20 > > locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first two=20 > > issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the=20 > downloading=20 > > process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going=20 > > forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by=20 > applications=20 > > locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is too much=20 > > difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. > > > > > > > > BR > > Xiao Lin > > > > From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM > > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/=20 > > Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple=20 > > sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or=20 > > forwards the movie, user B will change to update the=20 > peerlist if there=20 > > is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live=20 > > streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little=20 > > diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live=20 > streaming and VoD=20 > > streaming. > > We may explore more in the different points of signaling=20 > interaction=20 > > in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should=20 > > exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-19 15:57:27 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext = zhangyunfei; David A. =20 > > Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would=20 > complicate the=20 > > system a lot. > > > > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like=20 > stop/start,=20 > > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > > - How to mange the following situation: > > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > > . User B download this move via User A. > > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt=20 > presentation or skip=20 > > parts of the movie? > > > > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server=20 > and peers.=20 > > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming=20 > from initial=20 > > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > > > > Regards > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > > To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from=20 > different peers,=20 > > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P=20 > > on-demand streaming in this level. > > > > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a=20 > > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles=20 > > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully=20 > > downloaded. > > > > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the=20 > > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time=20 > > video the start point of the downloading is related to=20 > current time,=20 > > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of=20 > the movie=20 > > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time=20 > system may=20 > > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However,=20 > these could=20 > > be configured by different applications themselves. > > > > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP=20 > protocol for both=20 > > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be=20 > > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > > > > BR > > Lin Xiao > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More=20 > > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I=20 > think in the=20 > > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming=20 > > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of=20 > pre-recorded=20 > > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements=20 > to realize=20 > > the whole systems for live streaming and pre- recorded streaming. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I think the discussion still leads back to the open =20 > > question from the > > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live =20 > > streaming or > > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a =20 > movie, for =20 > > example). At > > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was =20 > > still an open > > question. > > > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs =20 > > chunks, > > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is =20 > > concerned about > > the location of peers with chunks, finding the =20 > appropriate =20 > > chunks, and > > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time =20 > > issues > > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to =20 > > the above, you > > would need to discuss the real-time issues that =20 > folks are =20 > > bringing up > > in this thread. > > > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which =20 > > problem is > > this group looking to solve? > > > > David > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks=20 > > wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. =20 > > (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 =20 > and MPEG4 =20 > > (for HDTV). > > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses =20 > these kind =20 > > of compression for > > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this =20 > > purpose? > > > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 =20 > > of the chunks fails, > > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every =20 > > 4th packet), not only a > > > > few packets. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to =20 > > use something like the > > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as =20 > > Annex G) of the H.264 > > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC =20 > allows for =20 > > degradation rather > > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream =20 > > are lost or dropped. > > > > > > Regards > > > Marshall > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =20 > > On Behalf Of > > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in =20 > > the mailing list.So > > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > > 2009-08-18 > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned =20 > > streaming, which is used for > > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors =20 > > what parts of a movie a > > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is =20 > subdivided into =20 > > several chunks? > > > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming =20 > > is partitioned into > > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the =20 > > widespread peers. > > > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a =20 > compressed =20 > > media stream into > > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When =20 > > does it happen?How to > > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway =20 > > the partition process > > > > should be independent of the compression process=20 > as I =20 > > understand. > > > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources =20 > > drop during a PPSP > > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk =20 > discovery? What =20 > > happens to the stream > > > > in between? > > > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery =20 > > in case of chunk source > > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet =20 > > drop.And this is the reason > > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You =20 > > mean what happens to > > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ppsp mailing list > > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From tme@americafree.tv Thu Aug 20 05:03:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3662E3A6E68 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 05:03:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.453 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.453 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nvrJz5+-raqn for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 05:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.americafree.tv (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0FC3A6D30 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 05:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by mail.americafree.tv (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4105C487493E; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 08:03:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2AAF5F2E-AA9D-4E9B-8B23-816A27A538B1@americafree.tv> From: Marshall Eubanks To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 08:03:55 -0400 References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com><200908191221165003989@chinamobile.com><5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><200908191616502038210@chinamobile.com><5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A6845D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><452C09DD-C9B9-41DE-A2BD-9064EFDA98A2@americafree.tv> <793F49BA1FC821409F99F10862A0E4DB03A63D66@FHDP1LUMXCV14.us.one.verizon.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:03:53 -0000 On Aug 20, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =20= wrote: > Hi Dave, > > I think thats a good approach for the problem. We should distinguish =20= > between: > > Live Streaming (e.g. TV Broadcast): > - The user can connect / disconnect to a video stream (no influence =20= > to the video stream with start/stop, forward/rewind). > - The user can either just watch the programm or additional store =20 > the information in a file (DVR). > - The file would be available for further proceedings. > These is also video-conferencing, which is similar to TV Broadcast, =20 but is generally duplex, has latency restrictions, no file structure =20 at all and (typically) no need to recover old data (in other words, =20 past a certain latency delayed packets can be regarded as lost). I would hope PPSP would support videoconferencing and telepresence as =20= well. Regards Marshall > File Sharing: > - The user can download files containing video material. > - The user can imidiately start to display the content. > - The file is available for further proceedings. > > The File Sharing case is allready covered by p2p technique available =20= > today. > Therefore, PPSP should focus on the Live Streaming case. > > Best Regards > Christian Schmidt > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =20= > Of ext Mcdysan, David E > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:19 PM > To: Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > IMHO, what Marshall states was my perception of the problem being =20 > solved by PPSP from the Bar BoF discussion in Stockholm -- delivery =20= > of live content, which could use multicast groups in portions of the =20= > network where they were available. > > As Xiao Lin stated in a post earlier today, stop/start, slow motion, =20= > rewind, fast forward, start from beginning can be solved by other =20 > applications (local or remote from the user device), such as the =20 > file transfer implemented by P2P today. > > There are a number of posts and some comments in the Stockholm =20 > meeting that cited streaming movies as an example, and I think there =20= > is already P2P file transfer technology to meet this need if the DVR =20= > type function is implemented on the user device. There is a =20 > potential application for a DVR style service that is not =20 > implemented in the end device, and implemented in some remote =20 > location, but in my opinion this is not streaming and is a separable =20= > problem. Once you have stop/start times and or forward/rewind or =20 > different speeds, multicast cannot be used. > > Thanks, > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks >> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:27 AM >> To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) >> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >> >> >> On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: >> >>> Agree with Yunfei. >>> >>> IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or >> VoD, is simply >>> composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. >> >> In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file, >> just the stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event, >> there is streaming of video, and no file even exists (and, >> frequently, there is not even a clear stop time, as the >> stream will last as long as the event does). >> I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling >> level. (If I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time, >> and I may want the entire movie downloaded. If I am watching >> the Olympics, the start time may have been days before, the >> stop time days later, and I am unlikely to want to download >> the entire period.) >> >> Regards >> Marshall >> >>> The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact chunks >>> required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the >> exact peers >>> with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and play >>> locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first two >>> issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the >> downloading >>> process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going >>> forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by >> applications >>> locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is too much >>> difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. >>> >>> >>> >>> BR >>> Xiao Lin >>> >>> From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM >>> To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/ >>> Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks >>> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >>> >>> Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple >>> sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or >>> forwards the movie, user B will change to update the >> peerlist if there >>> is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live >>> streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little >>> diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live >> streaming and VoD >>> streaming. >>> We may explore more in the different points of signaling >> interaction >>> in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should >>> exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. >>> >>> BR >>> Yunfei >>> zhangyunfei >>> 2009-08-19 >>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) >>> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-19 15:57:27 >>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); = ext zhangyunfei; David A. >>> Bryan; Marshall Eubanks >>> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org >>> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >>> >>> Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would >> complicate the >>> system a lot. >>> >>> - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like >> stop/start, >>> slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... >>> - How to mange the following situation: >>> . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. >>> . User B download this move via User A. >>> . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt >> presentation or skip >>> parts of the movie? >>> >>> So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server >> and peers. >>> Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming >> from initial >>> goals. If needed, this could be added later. >>> >>> Regards >>> Christian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] >> On Behalf >>> Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM >>> To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks >>> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >>> >>> As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from >> different peers, >>> there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P >>> on-demand streaming in this level. >>> >>> Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a >>> certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles >>> the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully >>> downloaded. >>> >>> The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the >>> downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time >>> video the start point of the downloading is related to >> current time, >>> while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of >> the movie >>> or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time >> system may >>> be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However, >> these could >>> be configured by different applications themselves. >>> >>> So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP >> protocol for both >>> systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be >>> proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. >>> >>> BR >>> Lin Xiao >>> >>> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] >> On Behalf >>> Of ext zhangyunfei >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM >>> To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks >>> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >>> >>> Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More >>> discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I >> think in the >>> signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming >>> should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of >> pre-recorded >>> streaming.Of course there are many different requirements >> to realize >>> the whole systems for live streaming and pre- recorded streaming. >>> >>> Yunfei >>> >>> zhangyunfei >>> 2009-08-19 >>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A David A. Bryan >>> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-18 22:33:28 >>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Marshall Eubanks >>> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org >>> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >>> >>> I think the discussion still leads back to the open >>> question from the >>> Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live >>> streaming or >>> getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a >> movie, for >>> example). At >>> the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was >>> still an open >>> question. >>> >>> If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs >>> chunks, >>> reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is >>> concerned about >>> the location of peers with chunks, finding the >> appropriate >>> chunks, and >>> possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time >>> issues >>> wouldn't be covered in this group. >>> >>> If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to >>> the above, you >>> would need to discuss the real-time issues that >> folks are >>> bringing up >>> in this thread. >>> >>> It would be interesting to see what people think. Which >>> problem is >>> this group looking to solve? >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. >>> (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Yunfei, >>>>> >>>>> thanks for forwarding to the list. >>>>> >>>>> With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 >> and MPEG4 >>> (for HDTV). >>>>> As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses >> these kind >>> of compression for >>>>> broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. >>>>> What kind of codec do you want to use for this >>> purpose? >>>>> >>>>> If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 >>> of the chunks fails, >>>>> then this would cause a severere loss of quality, >>>>> because you would lose a lot of information (every >>> 4th packet), not only a >>>>> few packets. >>>>> >>>> >>>> It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to >>> use something like the >>>> Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as >>> Annex G) of the H.264 >>>> video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC >> allows for >>> degradation rather >>>> than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream >>> are lost or dropped. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Marshall >>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Christian Schmidt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] >>> On Behalf Of >>>>> ext zhangyunfei >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM >>>>> To: ppsp@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >>>>> >>>>> I am not sure if Christian's message is received in >>> the mailing list.So >>>>> redirect it.Some replies are inline. >>>>> >>>>> Yunfei >>>>> >>>>> zhangyunfei >>>>> 2009-08-18 >>>>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Schmidt, Christian 1. = (NSN - DE/Munich) >>>>> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-18 = 16:10:55 >>>>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ext zhangyunfei >>>>> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp-bounces@ietf.org >>>>> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >>>>> >>>>> The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. >>>>> >>>>> Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned >>> streaming, which is used for >>>>> the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors >>> what parts of a movie a >>>>> peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. >>>>> >>>>> Am I right, that one media stream is >> subdivided into >>> several chunks? >>>>> >>>>> Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming >>> is partitioned into >>>>> chunks which are distributed and stored by the >>> widespread peers. >>>>> >>>>> Can you describe, how the distribution of a >> compressed >>> media stream into >>>>> several chunks can be achieved? >>>>> >>>>> I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When >>> does it happen?How to >>>>> play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway >>> the partition process >>>>> should be independent of the compression process >> as I >>> understand. >>>>> >>>>> What happens, if one of the required chunk sources >>> drop during a PPSP >>>>> session? Partial or complete new chunk >> discovery? What >>> happens to the stream >>>>> in between? >>>>> >>>>> In general there is no need of new chunk discovery >>> in case of chunk source >>>>> drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet >>> drop.And this is the reason >>>>> why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. >>>>> >>>>> What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You >>> mean what happens to >>>>> the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Christian Schmidt >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> ppsp mailing list >>>>> ppsp@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ppsp mailing list >>>> ppsp@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ppsp mailing list >>> ppsp@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > From lucyyong@huawei.com Thu Aug 20 12:31:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380503A6AEA for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:31:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.419 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.620, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O-USiTi52Igt for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga04-in.huawei.com (usaga04-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.180]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87D4B3A6774 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaga04-in [172.18.4.101]) by usaga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOO007X7WVXOQ@usaga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:31:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from y736742 ([10.124.12.61]) by usaga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KOO00075WVSR9@usaga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:31:09 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:31:06 -0500 From: Yong Lucy In-reply-to: <001701ca2142$10495540$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> To: 'Ning Zong' , 'Gyorgy Dan' , "'Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)'" Message-id: <006f01ca21cc$c3e8a850$3d0c7c0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcohNubxEL1hpS23Tqq1oPa6SvOUbgACWQcAACKitkA= References: <4A8BB759.50105@kth.se> <001701ca2142$10495540$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ??: Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 19:31:06 -0000 I agree Dan and Ning views and would like to point out the assumption in = PPSP work. The scope of PPSP is to focus on "communication layer" under = the architecture in the problem statement. "play-out layer" is out of = scope. Some people bring the case that "play-out layer" itself may also = involve some network communication for instance nVCR. This is a very = valid case. But PPSP work does not aim on the communication within = "play-out layer". Cheers, Lucy > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of > Ning Zong > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:58 PM > To: 'Gyorgy Dan'; 'Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)' > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] ??: Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 > I tend to agree on Dan=E2=80=99s opinion. > As stated in PPSP problem statement, the functionalities of advanced = play- > out characters belong to =E2=80=9CPlay-out Layer=E2=80=9D in the P2P = streaming components > architecture. PPSP focus on =E2=80=9CCommunication Layer=E2=80=9D = where the command from > =E2=80=9CPlay-out Layer=E2=80=9D is converted to which chunks are to = be discovered among > peers. E.g. if we do jump, the current chunks to be fetched may change > from =E2=80=9CChunk ID 10=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9CChunk ID 20=E2=80=9D, = that=E2=80=99s what the PPSP signaling part > needs to understand. > I couldn=E2=80=99t see the strong reason why not include both live = streaming and > VoD at the time being. There are some differences, but we could have a > flexible protocol for discovering distributed sources (note again, we = are > not defining the whole system). > My two cents. >=20 > BR, > Ning Zong >=20 > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Gyorgy > Dan > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: = 2009=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5 16:27 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: ppsp@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 > On demand streaming has additional functionality, but eventually you > might want to integrate on-demand and live streaming (e.g., stop the > live stream, watch a previous part, and then jump ahead). What to do > then, will we need three protocols, one for live, one for on-demand = and > for the integration of the two? >=20 > In my understanding the goal of PPSP is not to develop a p2p live > streaming "system", but to develop a "protocol" for the signaling part > of p2p media delivery. Given the standardized signaling protocol, = people > can develop diverse algorithms that implement the logic required for > live streaming, on-demand, or a mixture of the two. >=20 > As far as the signaling part is concerned, I do not see much = difference > between live and on-demand streaming: locating peers and content seem = to > be very similar problems in both cases. Sure, the protocol has to be > designed to be flexible enough to incorporate both, but this would > probably not make things overly complicated. >=20 > Best regards, > Gy=C3=B6rgy >=20 > Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would complicate the > > system a lot. > > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like stop/start, > > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > > - How to mange the following situation: > > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > > . User B download this move via User A. > > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt presentation or skip > > parts of the movie? > > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server and = peers. > > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming from = initial > > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > > Regards > > Christian > > > > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] *On > > Behalf Of *ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > > *To:* ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > *Cc:* ppsp@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from different = peers, > > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P > > on-demand streaming in this level. > > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a > > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles > > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully > > downloaded. > > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the > > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time > > video the start point of the downloading is related to current time, > > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of the movie > > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time system = may > > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However, these = could > > be configured by different applications themselves. > > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP protocol for = both > > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be > > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > > BR > > Lin Xiao > > > > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] *On > > Behalf Of *ext zhangyunfei > > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > > *To:* David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > *Cc:* ppsp@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More > > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I think in = the > > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming > > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of = pre-recorded > > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements to realize > > the whole systems for live streaming and pre-recorded streaming. > > Yunfei > > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* David A. Bryan > > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Marshall Eubanks > > *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A* ppsp@ietf.org > > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for = PPSP > > I think the discussion still leads back to the open question from = the > > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live streaming or > > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a movie, for example). = At > > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was still an open > > question. > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs chunks, > > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is concerned about > > the location of peers with chunks, finding the appropriate chunks, = and > > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time issues > > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to the above, = you > > would need to discuss the real-time issues that folks are bringing = up > > in this thread. > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which problem is > > this group looking to solve? > > David > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks = > > wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 and MPEG4 (for = HDTV). > > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses these kind of > > compression for > > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this purpose? > > > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 of the chunks > > fails, > > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every 4th packet), > > not only a > > > > few packets. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to use something > > like the > > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as Annex G) of = the > > H.264 > > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC allows for degradation > > rather > > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream are lost or > > dropped. > > > > > > Regards > > > Marshall > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of > > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in the mailing > > list.So > > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > > 2009-08-18 > > > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN = - DE/Munich) > > > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-18 = 16:10:55 > > > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ext zhangyunfei > > > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned streaming, which = is > > used for > > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors what parts = of > > a movie a > > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is subdivided into several = chunks? > > > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming is > > partitioned into > > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the widespread peers. > > > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a compressed media > > stream into > > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When does it > > happen?How to > > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway the = partition > > process > > > > should be independent of the compression process as I = understand. > > > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources drop during a > PPSP > > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk discovery? What happens = to > > the stream > > > > in between? > > > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery in case of > > chunk source > > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet drop.And this = is > > the reason > > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You mean what > > happens to > > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ppsp mailing list > > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 > -- > Gy=C3=B6rgy D=C3=A1n > School of Electrical Engineering > KTH Royal Institute of Technology > Stockholm, Sweden > http://www.ee.kth.se/~gyuri >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Aug 20 19:15:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF6653A6B4F for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 19:15:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.317 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.317 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.651, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=1.456, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yMhPDTJlPaSO for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 19:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89BFB3A68D0 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 19:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.0.52]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009082110145646-3379 ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:14:56 +0800 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:14:52 +0800 From: "=?utf-8?B?emhhbmd5dW5mZWk=?=" To: "=?utf-8?B?WW9uZyBMdWN5?=" , "=?utf-8?B?J05pbmcgWm9uZyc=?=" , "=?utf-8?B?J0d5b3JneSBEYW4n?=" , "=?utf-8?B?J1NjaG1pZHQsQ2hyaXN0aWFuIDEuIChOU04gLSBERS8=?=" References: <4A8BB759.50105@kth.se><001701ca2142$10495540$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> <006f01ca21cc$c3e8a850$3d0c7c0a@china.huawei.com> Message-ID: <200908211014518281906@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-21 10:14:56, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-21 10:15:12 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon633662352818_=====" Cc: =?utf-8?B?cHBzcEBpZXRmLm9yZw==?= Subject: Re: [ppsp] =?utf-8?q?=3F=3F=3A__Fw=3A_Meaning_of_Chunk_for_PPSP?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 02:15:10 -0000 --=====003_Dragon633662352818_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" SSBmYWlsIHRvIHBvc3QgdGhlIHJlcGx5IHRvIHRoZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QgYXMgdGhlIHJlc3Bv 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I fail to post the reply= to the=20 mailing list as the response of Lucy's previous comments.Post it again.I th= ink=20 Lucy's explaination makes us understand PPSP scope more clearly.And Lu= cy's=20 suggestion on the charter modification is just under discussion and we are = doing=20 the modification.
 
           =         =20 BR
           =            =20 Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei=
2009-08-21
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA= =BA=EF=BC=9A Yong=20 Lucy
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97= =B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A=20 2009-08-21 03:31:17
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA= =BA=EF=BC=9A 'Ning Zong'; 'Gyorgy=20 Dan'; 'Schmidt,Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)'
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC= =9A=20 ppsp@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC= =9A Re: [ppsp] ??: Fw:=20 Meaning of Chunk for PPSP
 
I  agree  Dan  and  Ning  views  and=20  would  like  to  point  out  the  assum= ption=20  in  PPSP  work.  The  scope  of  PPSP=20  is  to  focus  on  "communication  layer"=20  under  the  architecture  in  the  problem=20  statement.  "play-out  layer"  is  out  of=20  scope.  Some  people  bring  the  case  = ;that=20  "play-out  layer"  itself  may  also  involv= e=20  some  network  communication  for  instance=20  nVCR.  This  is  a  very  valid  case. =  But  PPSP  work  does  not  aim  on=20  the  communication  within  "play-out  layer".
 
Cheers,
Lucy
 
>  -----Original  Message-----
>  From:  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]  On  Behalf  Of
>  Ning  Zong
>  Sent:  Wednesday,  August  19,  2009=20  9:58  PM
>  To:  'Gyorgy  Dan';  'Schmidt,  Christi= an=20  1.  (NSN  -  DE/Munich)'
>  Cc:  ppsp@ietf.org
>  Subject:  [ppsp]  ??:  Fw:  Meaning &nb= sp;of=20  Chunk  for  PPSP
>  
>  I  tend  to  agree  on  Dan=E2=80= =99s=20  opinion.
>  As  stated  in  PPSP  problem=20  statement,  the  functionalities  of  advanced=20  play-
>  out  characters  belong  to  =E2=80=9CP= lay-out=20  Layer=E2=80=9D  in  the  P2P  streaming  com= ponents
>  architecture.  PPSP  focus  on=20  =E2=80=9CCommunication  Layer=E2=80=9D  where  the &nb= sp;command=20  from
>  =E2=80=9CPlay-out  Layer=E2=80=9D  is  conve= rted  to=20  which  chunks  are  to  be  discovered=20  among
>  peers.  E.g.  if  we  do  jump,=20  the  current  chunks  to  be  fetched  = may=20  change
>  from  =E2=80=9CChunk  ID  10=E2=80=9D  = to  =E2=80=9CChunk=20  ID  20=E2=80=9D,  that=E2=80=99s  what  the  = ;PPSP  signaling=20  part
>  needs  to  understand.
>  I  couldn=E2=80=99t  see  the  strong &= nbsp;reason=20  why  not  include  both  live  streaming=20  and
>  VoD  at  the  time  being.  There =  are  some  differences,  but  we  could=20  have  a
>  flexible  protocol  for  discovering=20  distributed  sources  (note  again,  we=20  are
>  not  defining  the  whole  system).
>  My  two  cents.
>  
>  BR,
>  Ning  Zong
>  
>  -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----
>  =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]  =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8  Gyorgy<= /DIV>
>  Dan
>  =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:  2009=E5=B9=B48= =E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5  16:27
>  =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:  Schmidt,  Christian=  1.  (NSN  -=20  DE/Munich)
>  =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81:  ppsp@ietf.org
>  =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:  Re:  [ppsp]  Fw:  = Meaning  of=20  Chunk  for  PPSP
>  
>  On  demand  streaming  has  additional =  functionality,  but  eventually  you
>  might  want  to  integrate  on-demand=20  and  live  streaming  (e.g.,  stop  the
>  live  stream,  watch  a  previous=20  part,  and  then  jump  ahead).  What  = to=20  do
>  then,  will  we  need  three=20  protocols,  one  for  live,  one  for=20  on-demand  and
>  for  the  integration  of  the=20  two?
>  
>  In  my  understanding  the  goal  = of=20  PPSP  is  not  to  develop  a  p2p=20  live
>  streaming  "system",  but  to  develop =  a  "protocol"  for  the  signaling  part
>  of  p2p  media  delivery.  Given  = the=20  standardized  signaling  protocol,  people
>  can  develop  diverse  algorithms  that= =20  implement  the  logic  required  for
>  live  streaming,  on-demand,  or  a=20  mixture  of  the  two.
>  
>  As  far  as  the  signaling  part =  is  concerned,  I  do  not  see  much=20  difference
>  between  live  and  on-demand  streamin= g:=20  locating  peers  and  content  seem  to
>  be  very  similar  problems  in  b= oth=20  cases.  Sure,  the  protocol  has  to=20  be
>  designed  to  be  flexible  enough &nbs= p;to=20  incorporate  both,  but  this  would
>  probably  not  make  things  overly=20  complicated.
>  
>  Best  regards,
>  Gy=C3=B6rgy
>  
>  Schmidt,  Christian  1.  (NSN  -=20  DE/Munich)  wrote:
>   >  Additional  requirements  for=20  on-demand  streaming  would  complicate  the
>   >  system  a  lot.
>   >  -  In  on-demand  streaming=20  system,  you  have  functions  like=20  stop/start,
>   >  slow  motion,  fast  motion,=20  going  forward,  going  back,  repeat....
>   >  -  How  to  mange  the=20  following  situation:
>   >  .  User  A  download  an=20  on-demand  stream  for  a  movie.
>   >  .  User  B  download  this =  move  via  User  A.
>   >  .  What  to  do  with  = ;User=20  B,  if  User  A  interrupt  presentation &nb= sp;or=20  skip
>   >  parts  of  the  movie?
>   >  So  you  see,  it  brings=20  a  lot  of  complexity  to  content  se= rver=20  and  peers.
>   >  Therefore  I  would  propose,=20  to  exclude  on-demand  streaming  from=20  initial
>   >  goals.  If  needed,  this  = could=20  be  added  later.
>   >  Regards
>   >  Christian
>   >
>   >=20  ---------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>   >  *From:*  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]  *On
>   >  Behalf  Of  *ext  Xiao,  Li= n=20  (NSN  -  CN/Beijing)
>   >  *Sent:*  Wednesday,  August  19,= =20  2009  8:26  AM
>   >  *To:*  ext  zhangyunfei;  David =  A.  Bryan;  Marshall  Eubanks
>   >  *Cc:*  ppsp@ietf.org
>   >  *Subject:*  Re:  [ppsp]  Fw:=20  Meaning  of  Chunk  for  PPSP
>   >
>   >  As  PPSP  is  focusing  on =  locating  required  chunks  from  different=20  peers,
>   >  there  is  no  much  differ= ence=20  between  P2P  live  streaming  and  P2P
>   >  on-demand  streaming  in  this=20  level.
>   >  Both  of  the  two  systems= =20  need  find  and  download  chunks  to=20  fulfill  a
>   >  certain  time  range  and  = then=20  another  in  order.The  player  reassembles
>   >  the  chunks  and  starts  t= o=20  play  once  the  first  time  range  is= =20  fully
>   >  downloaded.
>   >  The  main  differences,  I=20  think,  are  where  the  start  point  = of=20  the
>   >  downloading  is  and  how  = long=20  a  time  range  is  for  play.  For=20  real  time
>   >  video  the  start  point  o= f=20  the  downloading  is  related  to  current=20  time,
>   >  while  for  on-demand  system=20  it  always  from  the  beginning  of  t= he=20  movie
>   >  or  where  the  user  want =  it  to  start.  Moreover,  the  real  t= ime=20  system  may
>   >  be  more  sensitive  to  th= e=20  length  of  a  time  range.  However,  = these=20  could
>   >  be  configured  by  different=20  applications  themselves.
>   >  So,  I  think,  it  is=20  possible  to  design  a  common  PPSP=20  protocol  for  both
>   >  systems.  The  specific  require= ments=20  for  real  time  streaming  could  be
>   >  proposed  as  an  extension &nbs= p;of=20  PPSP  if  necessary.
>   >  BR
>   >  Lin  Xiao
>   >
>   >=20  ---------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>   >  *From:*  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]  *On
>   >  Behalf  Of  *ext  zhangyunfei
>   >  *Sent:*  Wednesday,  August  19,= =20  2009  12:21  PM
>   >  *To:*  David  A.  Bryan;=20  Marshall  Eubanks
>   >  *Cc:*  ppsp@ietf.org
>   >  *Subject:*  Re:  [ppsp]  Fw:=20  Meaning  of  Chunk  for  PPSP
>   >
>   >  Yes,  I  agree  with  David= 's=20  opinion.This  is  an  open  question.More
>   >  discussions  are  needed  in=20  the  mailing  list.  Personally  I  think=20  in  the
>   >  signaling  level,  the  requirem= ent=20  for  the  protocol  of  live  streaming
>   >  should  NATUALLY  back-compatible=20  meet  the  requirements  of  pre-recorded
>   >  streaming.Of  course  there  are= =20  many  different  requirements  to  realize
>   >  the  whole  systems  for  l= ive=20  streaming  and  pre-recorded  streaming.
>   >  Yunfei
>   >=20  ---------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>   >  zhangyunfei
>   >  2009-08-19
>   >=20  ---------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>   >  *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*  Da= vid  A.  Bryan
>   >  *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A*=  2009-08-18  22:33:28
>   >  *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*  Ma= rshall  Eubanks
>   >  *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A*  ppsp@ietf.o= rg
>   >  *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A*  Re:  [= ppsp]  Fw:  Meaning=20  of  Chunk  for  PPSP
>   >  I  think  the  discussion  = still=20  leads  back  to  the  open  question  f= rom=20  the
>   >  Stockholm  meeting  of  whether =  we  are  talking  about  live  streaming=20  or
>   >  getting  chunks  of  a=20  pre-recorded  video  file  (a  movie,  for=20  example).  At
>   >  the  end  of  the  meeting,= =20  the  chairs  noted  that  this  was  st= ill=20  an  open
>   >  question.
>   >  If  we  are  getting  a=20  pre-recorded  file,  then  one  grabs=20  chunks,
>   >  reassembles  locally,  and  play= s=20  --  the  group  then  is  concerned=20  about
>   >  the  location  of  peers  w= ith=20  chunks,  finding  the  appropriate  chunks,=20  and
>   >  possibly  the  protocol  to=20  obtain  them,  but  the  real  time=20  issues
>   >  wouldn't  be  covered  in  = this=20  group.
>   >  If  it  is  about  true=20  live  streaming,  then  in  addition  to=20  the  above,  you
>   >  would  need  to  discuss  t= he=20  real-time  issues  that  folks  are  bringin= g=20  up
>   >  in  this  thread.
>   >  It  would  be  interesting  = ;to=20  see  what  people  think.  Which  problem=20  is
>   >  this  group  looking  to=20  solve?
>   >  David
>   >  On  Tue,  Aug  18,  2009=20  at  5:55  AM,  Marshall  Eubanks  =20 <tme@americafree.tv
>   >   >  wrote:
>   >   >
>   >   >  On  Aug  18,  2009, =  at  5:17  AM,  Schmidt,  Christian  1.  = ;(NSN=20  -  DE/Munich)
>   >  wrote:
>   >   >
>   >   >   >  Hi  Yunfei,
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  thanks  for=20  forwarding  to  the  list.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  With  compressed=20  media,  I  thought  about  MPEG2  and  = MPEG4=20  (for  HDTV).
>   >   >   >  As  far  as=20  I  know,  digial  broadcasting  uses  these =  kind  of
>   >  compression  for
>   >   >   >  broadcasting  to=20  reduce  needed  bandwith.
>   >   >   >  What  kind  o= f=20  codec  do  you  want  to  use  for=20  this  purpose?
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  If  you  devi= de=20  one  media  stream  into  4  chunks  an= d=20  1  of  the  chunks
>   >  fails,
>   >   >   >  then  this  w= ould=20  cause  a  severere  loss  of  quality,
>   >   >   >  because  you=20  would  lose  a  lot  of  information  (= every=20  4th  packet),
>   >  not  only  a
>   >   >   >  few  packets.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >  It  sounds  that  it= =20  would  appropriate  in  this  case  to  = ;use=20  something
>   >  like  the
>   >   >  Scalable  Video  Coding=20  (SVC)  extension  (also  known  as  Annex=20  G)  of  the
>   >  H.264
>   >   >  video  codec  now  i= n=20  common  use  for  IPTV.  SVC  allows  f= or=20  degradation
>   >  rather
>   >   >  than  complete  loss &nbs= p;of=20  quality  if  "chunks"  of  a  stream  a= re=20  lost  or
>   >  dropped.
>   >   >
>   >   >  Regards
>   >   >  Marshall
>   >   >
>   >   >   >  Regards
>   >   >   >  Christian=20  Schmidt
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  From:=20  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]  On
>   >  Behalf  Of
>   >   >   >  ext  zhangyunfei
>   >   >   >  Sent:  Tuesday,=20  August  18,  2009  10:51  AM
>   >   >   >  To:=20  ppsp@ietf.org
>   >   >   >  Subject:  [ppsp]=20  Fw:  Meaning  of  Chunk  for  PPSP
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  I  am  not=20  sure  if  Christian's  message  is  received= =20  in  the  mailing
>   >  list.So
>   >   >   >  redirect  it.Some =  replies  are  inline.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  Yunfei
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  zhangyunfei
>   >   >   >  2009-08-18
>   >   >   >  =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4= =BA=BA=EF=BC=9A  Schmidt,=20  Christian  1.  (NSN  -  DE/Munich)
>   >   >   >  =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6= =97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A  2009-08-18=20  16:10:55
>   >   >   >  =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4= =BA=BA=EF=BC=9A  ext=20  zhangyunfei
>   >   >   >  =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF= =BC=9A=20  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org
>   >   >   >  =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF= =BC=9A  Meaning  of=20  Chunk  for  PPSP
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  The  meaning  = ;of=20  a  chunk  needs  further  clarification.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  Chunk:  A  ch= unk=20  is  a  basic  unit  of  partitioned=20  streaming,  which  is
>   >  used  for
>   >   >   >  the  purpose  = ;of=20  storage  and  advertising  to  neighbors  wh= at=20  parts  of
>   >  a  movie  a
>   >   >   >  peer  holds=20  [Sigcomm:P2P  streaming].
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  Am  I  right,= =20  that  one  media  stream  is  subdivided=20  into  several  chunks?
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  Yes,you  are=20  right.As  is  stated  in  the  paper,streami= ng=20  is
>   >  partitioned  into
>   >   >   >  chunks  which &nbs= p;are=20  distributed  and  stored  by  the  widesprea= d=20  peers.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  Can  you=20  describe,  how  the  distribution  of  a=20  compressed  media
>   >  stream  into
>   >   >   >  several  chunks=20  can  be  achieved?
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  I  am  not=20  quite  clear  about  "compressed  media".When=20  does  it
>   >  happen?How  to
>   >   >   >  play  a=20  compressed  media  stream  in  the  player?A= nyway=20  the  partition
>   >  process
>   >   >   >  should  be=20  independent  of  the  compression  process  = as=20  I  understand.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  What  happens, &nb= sp;if=20  one  of  the  required  chunk  sources  = ;drop=20  during  a
>  PPSP
>   >   >   >  session?  Partial =  or  complete  new  chunk  discovery?  What=20  happens  to
>   >  the  stream
>   >   >   >  in  between?
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  In  general  = there=20  is  no  need  of  new  chunk  discovery= =20  in  case  of
>   >  chunk  source
>   >   >   >  drop  because=20  streaming  is  tolerent  to  the  packet=20  drop.And  this  is
>   >  the  reason
>   >   >   >  why  most  P2= P=20  streaming  applications  use  UDP  directly.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  What  do  you= =20  mean  of  the  last  question,Christian?You  = ;mean=20  what
>   >  happens  to
>   >   >   >  the  playing=20  stream  in  case  of  chunk  drop  or=20  what?
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  Regards
>   >   >   >  Christian=20  Schmidt
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >=20  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
>   >   >   >  ppsp  mailing=20  list
>   >   >   >  ppsp@ietf.org
>   >   >   >=20  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>   >   >
>   >   >=20  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
>   >   >  ppsp  mailing  list
>   >   >  ppsp@ietf.org
>   >   >=20  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>   >   >
>   >=20  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
>   >  ppsp  mailing  list
>   >  ppsp@ietf.org
>   >  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>  
>  --
>  Gy=C3=B6rgy  D=C3=A1n
>  School  of  Electrical  Engineering
>  KTH  Royal  Institute  of  Technology
>  Stockholm,  Sweden
>  http://www.ee.kth.se/~gyuri
>  
>  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F
>  ppsp  mailing  list
>  ppsp@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>  
>  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F
>  ppsp  mailing  list
>  ppsp@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
 
 
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
ppsp  mailing  list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
--=====003_Dragon633662352818_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Aug 20 19:27:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F2ED28C120 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 19:27:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.17 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.17 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.445, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_SUBJECT=1.762, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JnIBZlsYC-By for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 19:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002823A6C79 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2009 19:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.0.52]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009082110275344-3749 ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:27:53 +0800 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:27:48 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Marshall Eubanks" , "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@ame ricafree.tv><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com><2 00908191221165003989@chinamobile.com><5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F 9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><200908191616502038210@chinamobile.c X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-21 10:27:53, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-21 10:27:58, Serialize complete at 2009-08-21 10:27:58 Message-ID: Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: [ppsp] (no subject) X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 02:27:58 -0000 om><5D84FDD8D5DC8646 B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A6845D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><452C09DD-C9B9-41DE-A2BD-90 64EFDA98A2@americafree.tv><793F49BA1FC821409F99F10862A0E4DB03A63D66@FHDP1LU MXCV14.us.one.verizon.com> <2AAF5F2E-AA9D-4E9B-8B23-816A27A538B1@americafree.tv> Subject: Re: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Message-ID: <200908211027486562287@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon878481105163_=====" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon878481105163_===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTWFyc2hhbGwsDQogIEl0IHNvdW5kcyBpbnRlcnN0aW5nIGlmICBQUFNQICB3b3VsZCAgc3Vw cG9ydCAgdmlkZW9jb25mZXJlbmNpbmcgIGFuZCAgdGVsZXByZXNlbmNlICBhcyB3ZWxsLkFjdHVh bGx5IHdlIGhhZCBkaXNjdXNzZWQgdGhpcyBpbnRlcm5hbGx5LlRoZSBtYWluIGNoYWxsZW5nZSBz ZWVtcyBpZiB3ZSBjYW4gZmluZCBhIHBvaW50IHdoZXJlIHAycCBmdW5jdGlvbmFsaXR5IGNhbiBi 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required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.160, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 48taivNal8Zo for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848213A6852 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOP00GZ8UWME9@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:45:58 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOP00AZLUWL9P@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:45:57 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316 ([10.164.12.81]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KOP00LY0UWLS8@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:45:57 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:45:56 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: To: "'Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)'" , "'ext Mcdysan, David E'" , 'Marshall Eubanks' , "'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'" Message-id: <002d01ca2233$6b3bd440$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcogwAjYCwz/ZoXlRCCbg+kHo93YqQABiPKwACHOpyAAORZtcA== Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIEZ3OiBNZWFuaW5nIG9mIENodW5rIGZvciBQ?= =?gb2312?b?UFNQ?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 07:47:22 -0000 Hi Schmidt and Dave, Regarding the focus of PPSP, I would prefer to use the term = =A1=B0signaling protocol between PPSP peers=A1=B1 instead of service types such as = =A1=B0live streaming=A1=B1 or =A1=B0file sharing/VoD=A1=B1, because some = requirements to the protocols to be developed by PPSP would support both live streaming and = VoD. For an instance, even in live streaming, we support the cases that the = users store the live content for further distribution (as pointed out by = Schmidt), such as TSTV (time-switch TV) where the stored content can be separated = into chunks and distributed in a VoD-like manner. That is, supporting chunk availabilities exchange among peers would be required in the protocols = to be developed by PPSP. Of course, it is definitely helpful to discuss which scenarios we need = to consider and support in order to point out which = functionalities/parameters we need put into the PPSP protocols. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C220=C8=D5 12:41 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin = (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi Dave, I think thats a good approach for the problem. We should distinguish between: Live Streaming (e.g. TV Broadcast): - The user can connect / disconnect to a video stream (no influence to = the video stream with start/stop, forward/rewind). - The user can either just watch the programm or additional store the information in a file (DVR). - The file would be available for further proceedings.=20 File Sharing: - The user can download files containing video material. - The user can imidiately start to display the content. - The file is available for further proceedings. The File Sharing case is allready covered by p2p technique available = today.=20 Therefore, PPSP should focus on the Live Streaming case. Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Mcdysan, David E Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:19 PM To: Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP IMHO, what Marshall states was my perception of the problem being solved = by PPSP from the Bar BoF discussion in Stockholm -- delivery of live = content, which could use multicast groups in portions of the network where they = were available. As Xiao Lin stated in a post earlier today, stop/start, slow motion, = rewind, fast forward, start from beginning can be solved by other applications (local or remote from the user device), such as the file transfer implemented by P2P today. There are a number of posts and some comments in the Stockholm meeting = that cited streaming movies as an example, and I think there is already P2P = file transfer technology to meet this need if the DVR type function is implemented on the user device. There is a potential application for a = DVR style service that is not implemented in the end device, and implemented = in some remote location, but in my opinion this is not streaming and is a separable problem. Once you have stop/start times and or forward/rewind = or different speeds, multicast cannot be used. Thanks, Dave=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:27 AM > To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 >=20 > On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: >=20 > > Agree with Yunfei. > > > > IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or=20 > VoD, is simply=20 > > composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. >=20 > In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file,=20 > just the stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event,=20 > there is streaming of video, and no file even exists (and,=20 > frequently, there is not even a clear stop time, as the=20 > stream will last as long as the event does). =20 > I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling=20 > level. (If I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time,=20 > and I may want the entire movie downloaded. If I am watching=20 > the Olympics, the start time may have been days before, the=20 > stop time days later, and I am unlikely to want to download=20 > the entire period.) >=20 > Regards > Marshall >=20 > > The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact chunks=20 > > required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the=20 > exact peers=20 > > with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and play=20 > > locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first two=20 > > issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the=20 > downloading=20 > > process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going=20 > > forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by=20 > applications=20 > > locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is too much=20 > > difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. > > > > > > > > BR > > Xiao Lin > > > > From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM > > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/=20 > > Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple=20 > > sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or=20 > > forwards the movie, user B will change to update the=20 > peerlist if there=20 > > is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live=20 > > streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little=20 > > diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live=20 > streaming and VoD=20 > > streaming. > > We may explore more in the different points of signaling=20 > interaction=20 > > in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should=20 > > exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-19 15:57:27 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext = zhangyunfei; David A. =20 > > Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would=20 > complicate the=20 > > system a lot. > > > > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like=20 > stop/start,=20 > > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > > - How to mange the following situation: > > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > > . User B download this move via User A. > > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt=20 > presentation or skip=20 > > parts of the movie? > > > > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server=20 > and peers.=20 > > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming=20 > from initial=20 > > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > > > > Regards > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > > To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from=20 > different peers,=20 > > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P=20 > > on-demand streaming in this level. > > > > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a=20 > > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles=20 > > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully=20 > > downloaded. > > > > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the=20 > > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time=20 > > video the start point of the downloading is related to=20 > current time,=20 > > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of=20 > the movie=20 > > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time=20 > system may=20 > > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However,=20 > these could=20 > > be configured by different applications themselves. > > > > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP=20 > protocol for both=20 > > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be=20 > > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > > > > BR > > Lin Xiao > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More=20 > > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I=20 > think in the=20 > > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming=20 > > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of=20 > pre-recorded=20 > > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements=20 > to realize=20 > > the whole systems for live streaming and pre- recorded streaming. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I think the discussion still leads back to the open =20 > > question from the > > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live =20 > > streaming or > > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a =20 > movie, for =20 > > example). At > > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was =20 > > still an open > > question. > > > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs =20 > > chunks, > > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is =20 > > concerned about > > the location of peers with chunks, finding the =20 > appropriate =20 > > chunks, and > > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time =20 > > issues > > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to =20 > > the above, you > > would need to discuss the real-time issues that =20 > folks are =20 > > bringing up > > in this thread. > > > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which =20 > > problem is > > this group looking to solve? > > > > David > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks=20 > > wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. =20 > > (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 =20 > and MPEG4 =20 > > (for HDTV). > > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses =20 > these kind =20 > > of compression for > > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this =20 > > purpose? > > > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 =20 > > of the chunks fails, > > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every =20 > > 4th packet), not only a > > > > few packets. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to =20 > > use something like the > > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as =20 > > Annex G) of the H.264 > > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC =20 > allows for =20 > > degradation rather > > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream =20 > > are lost or dropped. > > > > > > Regards > > > Marshall > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =20 > > On Behalf Of > > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in =20 > > the mailing list.So > > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > > 2009-08-18 > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned =20 > > streaming, which is used for > > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors =20 > > what parts of a movie a > > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is =20 > subdivided into =20 > > several chunks? > > > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming =20 > > is partitioned into > > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the =20 > > widespread peers. > > > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a =20 > compressed =20 > > media stream into > > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When =20 > > does it happen?How to > > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway =20 > > the partition process > > > > should be independent of the compression process=20 > as I =20 > > understand. > > > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources =20 > > drop during a PPSP > > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk =20 > discovery? What =20 > > happens to the stream > > > > in between? > > > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery =20 > > in case of chunk source > > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet =20 > > drop.And this is the reason > > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You =20 > > mean what happens to > > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ppsp mailing list > > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Fri Aug 21 00:57:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2714D3A69D2 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:57:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.803 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.803 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.193, BAYES_00=-2.599, CN_BODY_35=0.339, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lE-Q3wO25Bm7 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [217.115.75.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44E53A692E for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7L7utJv015238 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:56:55 +0200 Received: from demuexc023.nsn-intra.net (demuexc023.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.36]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7L7uoF4031598; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:56:55 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc023.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:56:52 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:56:51 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002d01ca2233$6b3bd440$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Thread-Index: AcogwAjYCwz/ZoXlRCCbg+kHo93YqQABiPKwACHOpyAAORZtcAAAwlmQ References: <002d01ca2233$6b3bd440$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext Ning Zong" , "ext Mcdysan, David E" , "Marshall Eubanks" , "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2009 07:56:52.0171 (UTC) FILETIME=[F1AC11B0:01CA2234] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 07:57:27 -0000 Hi Ning, That we need a definition of a PPSP peer. What qualifies a peer to be a PPSP peer? What is the differentiation between a peer and a PPSP peer? Regards Christian =20 -----Original Message----- From: ext Ning Zong [mailto:zongning@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:46 AM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); 'ext Mcdysan, David E'; = 'Marshall Eubanks'; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi Schmidt and Dave, Regarding the focus of PPSP, I would prefer to use the term = =A1=B0signaling protocol between PPSP peers=A1=B1 instead of service types such as = =A1=B0live streaming=A1=B1 or =A1=B0file sharing/VoD=A1=B1, because some = requirements to the protocols to be developed by PPSP would support both live streaming and = VoD. For an instance, even in live streaming, we support the cases that the = users store the live content for further distribution (as pointed out by = Schmidt), such as TSTV (time-switch TV) where the stored content can be separated = into chunks and distributed in a VoD-like manner. That is, supporting chunk availabilities exchange among peers would be required in the protocols = to be developed by PPSP. Of course, it is definitely helpful to discuss which scenarios we need = to consider and support in order to point out which = functionalities/parameters we need put into the PPSP protocols. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C220=C8=D5 12:41 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin = (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi Dave, I think thats a good approach for the problem. We should distinguish between: Live Streaming (e.g. TV Broadcast): - The user can connect / disconnect to a video stream (no influence to = the video stream with start/stop, forward/rewind). - The user can either just watch the programm or additional store the information in a file (DVR). - The file would be available for further proceedings.=20 File Sharing: - The user can download files containing video material. - The user can imidiately start to display the content. - The file is available for further proceedings. The File Sharing case is allready covered by p2p technique available = today.=20 Therefore, PPSP should focus on the Live Streaming case. Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Mcdysan, David E Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:19 PM To: Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP IMHO, what Marshall states was my perception of the problem being solved = by PPSP from the Bar BoF discussion in Stockholm -- delivery of live = content, which could use multicast groups in portions of the network where they = were available. As Xiao Lin stated in a post earlier today, stop/start, slow motion, = rewind, fast forward, start from beginning can be solved by other applications (local or remote from the user device), such as the file transfer implemented by P2P today. There are a number of posts and some comments in the Stockholm meeting = that cited streaming movies as an example, and I think there is already P2P = file transfer technology to meet this need if the DVR type function is implemented on the user device. There is a potential application for a = DVR style service that is not implemented in the end device, and implemented = in some remote location, but in my opinion this is not streaming and is a separable problem. Once you have stop/start times and or forward/rewind = or different speeds, multicast cannot be used. Thanks, Dave=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:27 AM > To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 >=20 > On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: >=20 > > Agree with Yunfei. > > > > IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or=20 > VoD, is simply=20 > > composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. >=20 > In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file,=20 > just the stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event,=20 > there is streaming of video, and no file even exists (and,=20 > frequently, there is not even a clear stop time, as the=20 > stream will last as long as the event does). =20 > I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling=20 > level. (If I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time,=20 > and I may want the entire movie downloaded. If I am watching=20 > the Olympics, the start time may have been days before, the=20 > stop time days later, and I am unlikely to want to download=20 > the entire period.) >=20 > Regards > Marshall >=20 > > The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact chunks=20 > > required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the=20 > exact peers=20 > > with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and play=20 > > locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first two=20 > > issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the=20 > downloading=20 > > process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going=20 > > forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by=20 > applications=20 > > locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is too much=20 > > difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. > > > > > > > > BR > > Xiao Lin > > > > From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM > > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/=20 > > Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple=20 > > sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or=20 > > forwards the movie, user B will change to update the=20 > peerlist if there=20 > > is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live=20 > > streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little=20 > > diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live=20 > streaming and VoD=20 > > streaming. > > We may explore more in the different points of signaling=20 > interaction=20 > > in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should=20 > > exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-19 15:57:27 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext = zhangyunfei; David A. =20 > > Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would=20 > complicate the=20 > > system a lot. > > > > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like=20 > stop/start,=20 > > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > > - How to mange the following situation: > > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > > . User B download this move via User A. > > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt=20 > presentation or skip=20 > > parts of the movie? > > > > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server=20 > and peers.=20 > > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming=20 > from initial=20 > > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > > > > Regards > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > > To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from=20 > different peers,=20 > > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P=20 > > on-demand streaming in this level. > > > > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a=20 > > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles=20 > > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully=20 > > downloaded. > > > > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the=20 > > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time=20 > > video the start point of the downloading is related to=20 > current time,=20 > > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of=20 > the movie=20 > > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time=20 > system may=20 > > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However,=20 > these could=20 > > be configured by different applications themselves. > > > > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP=20 > protocol for both=20 > > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be=20 > > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > > > > BR > > Lin Xiao > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More=20 > > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I=20 > think in the=20 > > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming=20 > > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of=20 > pre-recorded=20 > > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements=20 > to realize=20 > > the whole systems for live streaming and pre- recorded streaming. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I think the discussion still leads back to the open =20 > > question from the > > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live =20 > > streaming or > > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a =20 > movie, for =20 > > example). At > > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was =20 > > still an open > > question. > > > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs =20 > > chunks, > > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is =20 > > concerned about > > the location of peers with chunks, finding the =20 > appropriate =20 > > chunks, and > > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time =20 > > issues > > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to =20 > > the above, you > > would need to discuss the real-time issues that =20 > folks are =20 > > bringing up > > in this thread. > > > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which =20 > > problem is > > this group looking to solve? > > > > David > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks=20 > > wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. =20 > > (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 =20 > and MPEG4 =20 > > (for HDTV). > > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses =20 > these kind =20 > > of compression for > > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this =20 > > purpose? > > > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 =20 > > of the chunks fails, > > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every =20 > > 4th packet), not only a > > > > few packets. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to =20 > > use something like the > > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as =20 > > Annex G) of the H.264 > > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC =20 > allows for =20 > > degradation rather > > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream =20 > > are lost or dropped. > > > > > > Regards > > > Marshall > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =20 > > On Behalf Of > > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in =20 > > the mailing list.So > > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > > 2009-08-18 > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned =20 > > streaming, which is used for > > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors =20 > > what parts of a movie a > > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is =20 > subdivided into =20 > > several chunks? > > > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming =20 > > is partitioned into > > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the =20 > > widespread peers. > > > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a =20 > compressed =20 > > media stream into > > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When =20 > > does it happen?How to > > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway =20 > > the partition process > > > > should be independent of the compression process=20 > as I =20 > > understand. > > > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources =20 > > drop during a PPSP > > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk =20 > discovery? What =20 > > happens to the stream > > > > in between? > > > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery =20 > > in case of chunk source > > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet =20 > > drop.And this is the reason > > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You =20 > > mean what happens to > > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ppsp mailing list > > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zongning@huawei.com Fri Aug 21 00:58:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38B713A6E13 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:58:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.863, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9O18oFLmZYgG for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:58:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161C83A6DD3 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:58:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOP00G5SVEOE9@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:56:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOP00HTDVEO86@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:56:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316 ([10.164.12.81]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KOP00M9NVENWP@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:56:48 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:56:47 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: To: "'Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)'" , "'ext Mcdysan, David E'" , 'Marshall Eubanks' , "'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'" Message-id: <003401ca2234$ef4e2480$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcogwAjYCwz/ZoXlRCCbg+kHo93YqQABiPKwACHOpyAAOZEnkA== Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIEZ3OiBNZWFuaW5nIG9mIENodW5rIGZvciBQ?= =?gb2312?b?UFNQ?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 07:58:08 -0000 Hi, Schmidt, I have another comment. Please see in-line. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C220=C8=D5 12:41 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin = (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi Dave, I think thats a good approach for the problem. We should distinguish between: Live Streaming (e.g. TV Broadcast): - The user can connect / disconnect to a video stream (no influence to = the video stream with start/stop, forward/rewind). - The user can either just watch the programm or additional store the information in a file (DVR). - The file would be available for further proceedings.=20 File Sharing: - The user can download files containing video material. - The user can imidiately start to display the content. - The file is available for further proceedings. The File Sharing case is allready covered by p2p technique available = today.=20 Therefore, PPSP should focus on the Live Streaming case. [ZONG NING]: I agree that VoD is quite similar to file sharing and P2P = file sharing has been well deployed. My point is that we are doing standard protocol in PPSP which is still new to IETF. We will examine the common parts of current P2P technique and see how much we can reuse them in = PPSP. Do you mean that IETF will not do something that has been already well deployed and studied by other body? Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Mcdysan, David E Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:19 PM To: Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP IMHO, what Marshall states was my perception of the problem being solved = by PPSP from the Bar BoF discussion in Stockholm -- delivery of live = content, which could use multicast groups in portions of the network where they = were available. As Xiao Lin stated in a post earlier today, stop/start, slow motion, = rewind, fast forward, start from beginning can be solved by other applications (local or remote from the user device), such as the file transfer implemented by P2P today. There are a number of posts and some comments in the Stockholm meeting = that cited streaming movies as an example, and I think there is already P2P = file transfer technology to meet this need if the DVR type function is implemented on the user device. There is a potential application for a = DVR style service that is not implemented in the end device, and implemented = in some remote location, but in my opinion this is not streaming and is a separable problem. Once you have stop/start times and or forward/rewind = or different speeds, multicast cannot be used. Thanks, Dave=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:27 AM > To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 >=20 > On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: >=20 > > Agree with Yunfei. > > > > IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or=20 > VoD, is simply=20 > > composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. >=20 > In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file,=20 > just the stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event,=20 > there is streaming of video, and no file even exists (and,=20 > frequently, there is not even a clear stop time, as the=20 > stream will last as long as the event does). =20 > I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling=20 > level. (If I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time,=20 > and I may want the entire movie downloaded. If I am watching=20 > the Olympics, the start time may have been days before, the=20 > stop time days later, and I am unlikely to want to download=20 > the entire period.) >=20 > Regards > Marshall >=20 > > The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact chunks=20 > > required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the=20 > exact peers=20 > > with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and play=20 > > locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first two=20 > > issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the=20 > downloading=20 > > process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going=20 > > forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by=20 > applications=20 > > locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is too much=20 > > difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. > > > > > > > > BR > > Xiao Lin > > > > From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM > > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/=20 > > Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple=20 > > sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or=20 > > forwards the movie, user B will change to update the=20 > peerlist if there=20 > > is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live=20 > > streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little=20 > > diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live=20 > streaming and VoD=20 > > streaming. > > We may explore more in the different points of signaling=20 > interaction=20 > > in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should=20 > > exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-19 15:57:27 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext = zhangyunfei; David A. =20 > > Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would=20 > complicate the=20 > > system a lot. > > > > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like=20 > stop/start,=20 > > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > > - How to mange the following situation: > > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > > . User B download this move via User A. > > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt=20 > presentation or skip=20 > > parts of the movie? > > > > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server=20 > and peers.=20 > > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming=20 > from initial=20 > > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > > > > Regards > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > > To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from=20 > different peers,=20 > > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P=20 > > on-demand streaming in this level. > > > > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a=20 > > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles=20 > > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully=20 > > downloaded. > > > > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the=20 > > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time=20 > > video the start point of the downloading is related to=20 > current time,=20 > > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of=20 > the movie=20 > > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time=20 > system may=20 > > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However,=20 > these could=20 > > be configured by different applications themselves. > > > > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP=20 > protocol for both=20 > > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be=20 > > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > > > > BR > > Lin Xiao > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More=20 > > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I=20 > think in the=20 > > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming=20 > > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of=20 > pre-recorded=20 > > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements=20 > to realize=20 > > the whole systems for live streaming and pre- recorded streaming. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I think the discussion still leads back to the open =20 > > question from the > > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live =20 > > streaming or > > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a =20 > movie, for =20 > > example). At > > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was =20 > > still an open > > question. > > > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs =20 > > chunks, > > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is =20 > > concerned about > > the location of peers with chunks, finding the =20 > appropriate =20 > > chunks, and > > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time =20 > > issues > > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to =20 > > the above, you > > would need to discuss the real-time issues that =20 > folks are =20 > > bringing up > > in this thread. > > > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which =20 > > problem is > > this group looking to solve? > > > > David > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks=20 > > wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. =20 > > (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 =20 > and MPEG4 =20 > > (for HDTV). > > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses =20 > these kind =20 > > of compression for > > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this =20 > > purpose? > > > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 =20 > > of the chunks fails, > > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every =20 > > 4th packet), not only a > > > > few packets. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to =20 > > use something like the > > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as =20 > > Annex G) of the H.264 > > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC =20 > allows for =20 > > degradation rather > > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream =20 > > are lost or dropped. > > > > > > Regards > > > Marshall > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =20 > > On Behalf Of > > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in =20 > > the mailing list.So > > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > > 2009-08-18 > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned =20 > > streaming, which is used for > > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors =20 > > what parts of a movie a > > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is =20 > subdivided into =20 > > several chunks? > > > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming =20 > > is partitioned into > > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the =20 > > widespread peers. > > > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a =20 > compressed =20 > > media stream into > > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When =20 > > does it happen?How to > > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway =20 > > the partition process > > > > should be independent of the compression process=20 > as I =20 > > understand. > > > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources =20 > > drop during a PPSP > > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk =20 > discovery? What =20 > > happens to the stream > > > > in between? > > > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery =20 > > in case of chunk source > > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet =20 > > drop.And this is the reason > > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You =20 > > mean what happens to > > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ppsp mailing list > > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zongning@huawei.com Fri Aug 21 01:02:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 946F63A67F6 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:02:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.266 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.266 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.605, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R-qwYq1IOT+0 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B3B928C100 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOP00CKJVKNLB@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:00:24 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOP00KTDVKNUY@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:00:23 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316 ([10.164.12.81]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KOP00L3IVKLS8@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:00:23 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:00:21 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: <002d01ca2233$6b3bd440$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> To: 'Ning Zong' , "'Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)'" , "'ext Mcdysan, David E'" , 'Marshall Eubanks' , "'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'" Message-id: <003501ca2235$6eb0c4d0$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcogwAjYCwz/ZoXlRCCbg+kHo93YqQABiPKwACHOpyAAORZtcAAA40Bg Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?ILTwuLQ6ICC08Li0OiAgRnc6IE1lYW5pbmcgb2YgQ2h1?= =?gb2312?b?bmsgZm9yIFBQU1A=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:02:01 -0000 Sorry, TSTV should be "time-shift TV". I apologize for my English. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Ning Zong =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C221=C8=D5 15:46 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 'Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)'; 'ext = Mcdysan, David E'; 'Marshall Eubanks'; 'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)' =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: [ppsp] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi Schmidt and Dave, Regarding the focus of PPSP, I would prefer to use the term = =A1=B0signaling protocol between PPSP peers=A1=B1 instead of service types such as = =A1=B0live streaming=A1=B1 or =A1=B0file sharing/VoD=A1=B1, because some = requirements to the protocols to be developed by PPSP would support both live streaming and = VoD. For an instance, even in live streaming, we support the cases that the = users store the live content for further distribution (as pointed out by = Schmidt), such as TSTV (time-switch TV) where the stored content can be separated = into chunks and distributed in a VoD-like manner. That is, supporting chunk availabilities exchange among peers would be required in the protocols = to be developed by PPSP. Of course, it is definitely helpful to discuss which scenarios we need = to consider and support in order to point out which = functionalities/parameters we need put into the PPSP protocols. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C220=C8=D5 12:41 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin = (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi Dave, I think thats a good approach for the problem. We should distinguish between: Live Streaming (e.g. TV Broadcast): - The user can connect / disconnect to a video stream (no influence to = the video stream with start/stop, forward/rewind). - The user can either just watch the programm or additional store the information in a file (DVR). - The file would be available for further proceedings.=20 File Sharing: - The user can download files containing video material. - The user can imidiately start to display the content. - The file is available for further proceedings. The File Sharing case is allready covered by p2p technique available = today.=20 Therefore, PPSP should focus on the Live Streaming case. Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Mcdysan, David E Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:19 PM To: Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP IMHO, what Marshall states was my perception of the problem being solved = by PPSP from the Bar BoF discussion in Stockholm -- delivery of live = content, which could use multicast groups in portions of the network where they = were available. As Xiao Lin stated in a post earlier today, stop/start, slow motion, = rewind, fast forward, start from beginning can be solved by other applications (local or remote from the user device), such as the file transfer implemented by P2P today. There are a number of posts and some comments in the Stockholm meeting = that cited streaming movies as an example, and I think there is already P2P = file transfer technology to meet this need if the DVR type function is implemented on the user device. There is a potential application for a = DVR style service that is not implemented in the end device, and implemented = in some remote location, but in my opinion this is not streaming and is a separable problem. Once you have stop/start times and or forward/rewind = or different speeds, multicast cannot be used. Thanks, Dave=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:27 AM > To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 >=20 > On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: >=20 > > Agree with Yunfei. > > > > IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or=20 > VoD, is simply=20 > > composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. >=20 > In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file,=20 > just the stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event,=20 > there is streaming of video, and no file even exists (and,=20 > frequently, there is not even a clear stop time, as the=20 > stream will last as long as the event does). =20 > I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling=20 > level. (If I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time,=20 > and I may want the entire movie downloaded. If I am watching=20 > the Olympics, the start time may have been days before, the=20 > stop time days later, and I am unlikely to want to download=20 > the entire period.) >=20 > Regards > Marshall >=20 > > The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact chunks=20 > > required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the=20 > exact peers=20 > > with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and play=20 > > locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first two=20 > > issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the=20 > downloading=20 > > process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going=20 > > forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by=20 > applications=20 > > locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is too much=20 > > difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. > > > > > > > > BR > > Xiao Lin > > > > From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM > > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/=20 > > Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple=20 > > sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or=20 > > forwards the movie, user B will change to update the=20 > peerlist if there=20 > > is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live=20 > > streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little=20 > > diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live=20 > streaming and VoD=20 > > streaming. > > We may explore more in the different points of signaling=20 > interaction=20 > > in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should=20 > > exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-19 15:57:27 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext = zhangyunfei; David A. =20 > > Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would=20 > complicate the=20 > > system a lot. > > > > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like=20 > stop/start,=20 > > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > > - How to mange the following situation: > > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > > . User B download this move via User A. > > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt=20 > presentation or skip=20 > > parts of the movie? > > > > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server=20 > and peers.=20 > > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming=20 > from initial=20 > > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > > > > Regards > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > > To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from=20 > different peers,=20 > > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P=20 > > on-demand streaming in this level. > > > > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a=20 > > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles=20 > > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully=20 > > downloaded. > > > > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the=20 > > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time=20 > > video the start point of the downloading is related to=20 > current time,=20 > > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of=20 > the movie=20 > > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time=20 > system may=20 > > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However,=20 > these could=20 > > be configured by different applications themselves. > > > > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP=20 > protocol for both=20 > > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be=20 > > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > > > > BR > > Lin Xiao > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More=20 > > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I=20 > think in the=20 > > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming=20 > > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of=20 > pre-recorded=20 > > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements=20 > to realize=20 > > the whole systems for live streaming and pre- recorded streaming. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I think the discussion still leads back to the open =20 > > question from the > > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live =20 > > streaming or > > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a =20 > movie, for =20 > > example). At > > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was =20 > > still an open > > question. > > > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs =20 > > chunks, > > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is =20 > > concerned about > > the location of peers with chunks, finding the =20 > appropriate =20 > > chunks, and > > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time =20 > > issues > > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to =20 > > the above, you > > would need to discuss the real-time issues that =20 > folks are =20 > > bringing up > > in this thread. > > > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which =20 > > problem is > > this group looking to solve? > > > > David > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks=20 > > wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. =20 > > (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 =20 > and MPEG4 =20 > > (for HDTV). > > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses =20 > these kind =20 > > of compression for > > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this =20 > > purpose? > > > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 =20 > > of the chunks fails, > > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every =20 > > 4th packet), not only a > > > > few packets. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to =20 > > use something like the > > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as =20 > > Annex G) of the H.264 > > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC =20 > allows for =20 > > degradation rather > > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream =20 > > are lost or dropped. > > > > > > Regards > > > Marshall > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =20 > > On Behalf Of > > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in =20 > > the mailing list.So > > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > > 2009-08-18 > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned =20 > > streaming, which is used for > > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors =20 > > what parts of a movie a > > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is =20 > subdivided into =20 > > several chunks? > > > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming =20 > > is partitioned into > > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the =20 > > widespread peers. > > > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a =20 > compressed =20 > > media stream into > > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When =20 > > does it happen?How to > > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway =20 > > the partition process > > > > should be independent of the compression process=20 > as I =20 > > understand. > > > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources =20 > > drop during a PPSP > > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk =20 > discovery? What =20 > > happens to the stream > > > > in between? > > > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery =20 > > in case of chunk source > > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet =20 > > drop.And this is the reason > > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You =20 > > mean what happens to > > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ppsp mailing list > > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Fri Aug 21 01:10:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE983A6DFF for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:10:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.654 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.654 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, CN_BODY_35=0.339, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9hljE7l46l-X for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [217.115.75.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1A6C3A67F6 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7L8A8Lm014442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:10:08 +0200 Received: from demuexc023.nsn-intra.net (demuexc023.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.36]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7L8A8ML030924; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:10:08 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc023.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:09:58 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:09:57 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003401ca2234$ef4e2480$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Thread-Index: AcogwAjYCwz/ZoXlRCCbg+kHo93YqQABiPKwACHOpyAAOZEnkAAAgSEg References: <003401ca2234$ef4e2480$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext Ning Zong" , "ext Mcdysan, David E" , "Marshall Eubanks" , "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2009 08:09:58.0453 (UTC) FILETIME=[C6552E50:01CA2236] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:10:34 -0000 >Do you mean that IETF will not do something that has been already well >deployed and studied by other body? Lets say, if a solution for a problem is reasonable, implemented, = deployed and allready available Under reasonable conditions, they would not do something in this field. For example, in P2PSIP, they allways excluded the invention of a new DHT = algorithm. My intension was - to narrow down the scope of the PPSP charter to a reasonable size - to differentiate from existing solutions, e.g. Bittorent - to differentiate from P2PSIP work Regards Christian =20 -----Original Message----- From: ext Ning Zong [mailto:zongning@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:57 AM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); 'ext Mcdysan, David E'; = 'Marshall Eubanks'; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi, Schmidt, I have another comment. Please see in-line. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C220=C8=D5 12:41 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin = (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi Dave, I think thats a good approach for the problem. We should distinguish between: Live Streaming (e.g. TV Broadcast): - The user can connect / disconnect to a video stream (no influence to = the video stream with start/stop, forward/rewind). - The user can either just watch the programm or additional store the information in a file (DVR). - The file would be available for further proceedings.=20 File Sharing: - The user can download files containing video material. - The user can imidiately start to display the content. - The file is available for further proceedings. The File Sharing case is allready covered by p2p technique available = today.=20 Therefore, PPSP should focus on the Live Streaming case. [ZONG NING]: I agree that VoD is quite similar to file sharing and P2P = file sharing has been well deployed. My point is that we are doing standard protocol in PPSP which is still new to IETF. We will examine the common parts of current P2P technique and see how much we can reuse them in = PPSP. Do you mean that IETF will not do something that has been already well deployed and studied by other body? Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Mcdysan, David E Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:19 PM To: Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP IMHO, what Marshall states was my perception of the problem being solved = by PPSP from the Bar BoF discussion in Stockholm -- delivery of live = content, which could use multicast groups in portions of the network where they = were available. As Xiao Lin stated in a post earlier today, stop/start, slow motion, = rewind, fast forward, start from beginning can be solved by other applications (local or remote from the user device), such as the file transfer implemented by P2P today. There are a number of posts and some comments in the Stockholm meeting = that cited streaming movies as an example, and I think there is already P2P = file transfer technology to meet this need if the DVR type function is implemented on the user device. There is a potential application for a = DVR style service that is not implemented in the end device, and implemented = in some remote location, but in my opinion this is not streaming and is a separable problem. Once you have stop/start times and or forward/rewind = or different speeds, multicast cannot be used. Thanks, Dave=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:27 AM > To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 >=20 > On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: >=20 > > Agree with Yunfei. > > > > IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or=20 > VoD, is simply=20 > > composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. >=20 > In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file,=20 > just the stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event,=20 > there is streaming of video, and no file even exists (and,=20 > frequently, there is not even a clear stop time, as the=20 > stream will last as long as the event does). =20 > I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling=20 > level. (If I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time,=20 > and I may want the entire movie downloaded. If I am watching=20 > the Olympics, the start time may have been days before, the=20 > stop time days later, and I am unlikely to want to download=20 > the entire period.) >=20 > Regards > Marshall >=20 > > The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact chunks=20 > > required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the=20 > exact peers=20 > > with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and play=20 > > locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first two=20 > > issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the=20 > downloading=20 > > process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going=20 > > forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by=20 > applications=20 > > locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is too much=20 > > difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. > > > > > > > > BR > > Xiao Lin > > > > From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM > > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/=20 > > Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple=20 > > sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or=20 > > forwards the movie, user B will change to update the=20 > peerlist if there=20 > > is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live=20 > > streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little=20 > > diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live=20 > streaming and VoD=20 > > streaming. > > We may explore more in the different points of signaling=20 > interaction=20 > > in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should=20 > > exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-19 15:57:27 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext = zhangyunfei; David A. =20 > > Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would=20 > complicate the=20 > > system a lot. > > > > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like=20 > stop/start,=20 > > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > > - How to mange the following situation: > > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > > . User B download this move via User A. > > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt=20 > presentation or skip=20 > > parts of the movie? > > > > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server=20 > and peers.=20 > > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming=20 > from initial=20 > > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > > > > Regards > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > > To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from=20 > different peers,=20 > > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P=20 > > on-demand streaming in this level. > > > > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a=20 > > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles=20 > > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully=20 > > downloaded. > > > > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the=20 > > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time=20 > > video the start point of the downloading is related to=20 > current time,=20 > > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of=20 > the movie=20 > > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time=20 > system may=20 > > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However,=20 > these could=20 > > be configured by different applications themselves. > > > > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP=20 > protocol for both=20 > > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be=20 > > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > > > > BR > > Lin Xiao > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More=20 > > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I=20 > think in the=20 > > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming=20 > > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of=20 > pre-recorded=20 > > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements=20 > to realize=20 > > the whole systems for live streaming and pre- recorded streaming. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I think the discussion still leads back to the open =20 > > question from the > > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live =20 > > streaming or > > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a =20 > movie, for =20 > > example). At > > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was =20 > > still an open > > question. > > > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs =20 > > chunks, > > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is =20 > > concerned about > > the location of peers with chunks, finding the =20 > appropriate =20 > > chunks, and > > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time =20 > > issues > > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to =20 > > the above, you > > would need to discuss the real-time issues that =20 > folks are =20 > > bringing up > > in this thread. > > > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which =20 > > problem is > > this group looking to solve? > > > > David > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks=20 > > wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. =20 > > (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 =20 > and MPEG4 =20 > > (for HDTV). > > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses =20 > these kind =20 > > of compression for > > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this =20 > > purpose? > > > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 =20 > > of the chunks fails, > > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every =20 > > 4th packet), not only a > > > > few packets. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to =20 > > use something like the > > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as =20 > > Annex G) of the H.264 > > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC =20 > allows for =20 > > degradation rather > > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream =20 > > are lost or dropped. > > > > > > Regards > > > Marshall > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =20 > > On Behalf Of > > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in =20 > > the mailing list.So > > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > > 2009-08-18 > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned =20 > > streaming, which is used for > > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors =20 > > what parts of a movie a > > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is =20 > subdivided into =20 > > several chunks? > > > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming =20 > > is partitioned into > > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the =20 > > widespread peers. > > > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a =20 > compressed =20 > > media stream into > > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When =20 > > does it happen?How to > > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway =20 > > the partition process > > > > should be independent of the compression process=20 > as I =20 > > understand. > > > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources =20 > > drop during a PPSP > > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk =20 > discovery? What =20 > > happens to the stream > > > > in between? > > > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery =20 > > in case of chunk source > > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet =20 > > drop.And this is the reason > > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You =20 > > mean what happens to > > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ppsp mailing list > > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zongning@huawei.com Fri Aug 21 01:24:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893523A6801 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:24:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.041 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.041 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.380, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n7FpCyAMOUzt for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255393A67D8 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOP00GATWOZE9@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:24:36 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOP00HI4WOZX5@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:24:35 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316 ([10.164.12.81]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KOP00MW7WOZWM@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:24:35 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:24:35 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: To: "'Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)'" , "'ext Mcdysan, David E'" , 'Marshall Eubanks' , "'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'" Message-id: <003601ca2238$d1621720$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcogwAjYCwz/ZoXlRCCbg+kHo93YqQABiPKwACHOpyAAORZtcAAAwlmQAAC/9dA= Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIEZ3OiBNZWFuaW5nIG9mIENodW5rIGZvciBQ?= =?gb2312?b?UFNQ?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:24:43 -0000 Hi Schmidt, PPSP peer is nothing new but referred to as the peers in streaming scenarios. PPSP peers not only receive the streaming content, but storing and = uploading the streaming content to others. In a broad sense, PPSP peers include multiple entities such as user = devices, network caches, CDN servers, etc. in streaming scenarios and with the = above mentioned roles. We will document this definition in Problem Statement. Thank you for = asking. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C221=C8=D5 15:57 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Ning Zong; ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall = Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi Ning, That we need a definition of a PPSP peer. What qualifies a peer to be a PPSP peer? What is the differentiation between a peer and a PPSP peer? Regards Christian =20 -----Original Message----- From: ext Ning Zong [mailto:zongning@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:46 AM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); 'ext Mcdysan, David E'; 'Marshall Eubanks'; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi Schmidt and Dave, Regarding the focus of PPSP, I would prefer to use the term = =A1=B0signaling protocol between PPSP peers=A1=B1 instead of service types such as = =A1=B0live streaming=A1=B1 or =A1=B0file sharing/VoD=A1=B1, because some = requirements to the protocols to be developed by PPSP would support both live streaming and = VoD. For an instance, even in live streaming, we support the cases that the = users store the live content for further distribution (as pointed out by = Schmidt), such as TSTV (time-switch TV) where the stored content can be separated = into chunks and distributed in a VoD-like manner. That is, supporting chunk availabilities exchange among peers would be required in the protocols = to be developed by PPSP. Of course, it is definitely helpful to discuss which scenarios we need = to consider and support in order to point out which = functionalities/parameters we need put into the PPSP protocols. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C220=C8=D5 12:41 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin = (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi Dave, I think thats a good approach for the problem. We should distinguish between: Live Streaming (e.g. TV Broadcast): - The user can connect / disconnect to a video stream (no influence to = the video stream with start/stop, forward/rewind). - The user can either just watch the programm or additional store the information in a file (DVR). - The file would be available for further proceedings.=20 File Sharing: - The user can download files containing video material. - The user can imidiately start to display the content. - The file is available for further proceedings. The File Sharing case is allready covered by p2p technique available = today.=20 Therefore, PPSP should focus on the Live Streaming case. Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Mcdysan, David E Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:19 PM To: Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP IMHO, what Marshall states was my perception of the problem being solved = by PPSP from the Bar BoF discussion in Stockholm -- delivery of live = content, which could use multicast groups in portions of the network where they = were available. As Xiao Lin stated in a post earlier today, stop/start, slow motion, = rewind, fast forward, start from beginning can be solved by other applications (local or remote from the user device), such as the file transfer implemented by P2P today. There are a number of posts and some comments in the Stockholm meeting = that cited streaming movies as an example, and I think there is already P2P = file transfer technology to meet this need if the DVR type function is implemented on the user device. There is a potential application for a = DVR style service that is not implemented in the end device, and implemented = in some remote location, but in my opinion this is not streaming and is a separable problem. Once you have stop/start times and or forward/rewind = or different speeds, multicast cannot be used. Thanks, Dave=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:27 AM > To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 >=20 > On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: >=20 > > Agree with Yunfei. > > > > IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or=20 > VoD, is simply=20 > > composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. >=20 > In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file,=20 > just the stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event,=20 > there is streaming of video, and no file even exists (and,=20 > frequently, there is not even a clear stop time, as the=20 > stream will last as long as the event does). =20 > I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling=20 > level. (If I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time,=20 > and I may want the entire movie downloaded. If I am watching=20 > the Olympics, the start time may have been days before, the=20 > stop time days later, and I am unlikely to want to download=20 > the entire period.) >=20 > Regards > Marshall >=20 > > The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact chunks=20 > > required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the=20 > exact peers=20 > > with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and play=20 > > locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first two=20 > > issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the=20 > downloading=20 > > process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going=20 > > forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by=20 > applications=20 > > locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is too much=20 > > difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. > > > > > > > > BR > > Xiao Lin > > > > From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM > > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/=20 > > Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple=20 > > sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or=20 > > forwards the movie, user B will change to update the=20 > peerlist if there=20 > > is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live=20 > > streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little=20 > > diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live=20 > streaming and VoD=20 > > streaming. > > We may explore more in the different points of signaling=20 > interaction=20 > > in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should=20 > > exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-19 15:57:27 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext = zhangyunfei; David A. =20 > > Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would=20 > complicate the=20 > > system a lot. > > > > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like=20 > stop/start,=20 > > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > > - How to mange the following situation: > > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > > . User B download this move via User A. > > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt=20 > presentation or skip=20 > > parts of the movie? > > > > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server=20 > and peers.=20 > > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming=20 > from initial=20 > > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > > > > Regards > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > > To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from=20 > different peers,=20 > > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P=20 > > on-demand streaming in this level. > > > > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a=20 > > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles=20 > > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully=20 > > downloaded. > > > > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the=20 > > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time=20 > > video the start point of the downloading is related to=20 > current time,=20 > > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of=20 > the movie=20 > > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time=20 > system may=20 > > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However,=20 > these could=20 > > be configured by different applications themselves. > > > > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP=20 > protocol for both=20 > > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be=20 > > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > > > > BR > > Lin Xiao > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More=20 > > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I=20 > think in the=20 > > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming=20 > > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of=20 > pre-recorded=20 > > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements=20 > to realize=20 > > the whole systems for live streaming and pre- recorded streaming. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I think the discussion still leads back to the open =20 > > question from the > > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live =20 > > streaming or > > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a =20 > movie, for =20 > > example). At > > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was =20 > > still an open > > question. > > > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs =20 > > chunks, > > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is =20 > > concerned about > > the location of peers with chunks, finding the =20 > appropriate =20 > > chunks, and > > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time =20 > > issues > > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to =20 > > the above, you > > would need to discuss the real-time issues that =20 > folks are =20 > > bringing up > > in this thread. > > > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which =20 > > problem is > > this group looking to solve? > > > > David > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks=20 > > wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. =20 > > (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 =20 > and MPEG4 =20 > > (for HDTV). > > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses =20 > these kind =20 > > of compression for > > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this =20 > > purpose? > > > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 =20 > > of the chunks fails, > > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every =20 > > 4th packet), not only a > > > > few packets. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to =20 > > use something like the > > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as =20 > > Annex G) of the H.264 > > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC =20 > allows for =20 > > degradation rather > > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream =20 > > are lost or dropped. > > > > > > Regards > > > Marshall > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =20 > > On Behalf Of > > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in =20 > > the mailing list.So > > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > > 2009-08-18 > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned =20 > > streaming, which is used for > > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors =20 > > what parts of a movie a > > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is =20 > subdivided into =20 > > several chunks? > > > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming =20 > > is partitioned into > > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the =20 > > widespread peers. > > > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a =20 > compressed =20 > > media stream into > > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When =20 > > does it happen?How to > > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway =20 > > the partition process > > > > should be independent of the compression process=20 > as I =20 > > understand. > > > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources =20 > > drop during a PPSP > > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk =20 > discovery? What =20 > > happens to the stream > > > > in between? > > > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery =20 > > in case of chunk source > > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet =20 > > drop.And this is the reason > > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You =20 > > mean what happens to > > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ppsp mailing list > > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zongning@huawei.com Fri Aug 21 01:37:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 516783A6A64 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:37:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -91.842 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-91.842 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.181, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IFWkJw9R4YS1 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 614663A69CB for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOP00C9SX7KLB@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:35:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.33]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOP002YKX7J2W@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:35:43 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316 ([10.164.12.81]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KOP00049X7J70@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:35:43 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:35:43 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: To: "'Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)'" , "'ext Mcdysan, David E'" , 'Marshall Eubanks' , "'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'" Message-id: <003701ca223a$5f9eca50$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcogwAjYCwz/ZoXlRCCbg+kHo93YqQABiPKwACHOpyAAOZEnkAAAgSEgAADXWMA= Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIEZ3OiBNZWFuaW5nIG9mIENodW5rIGZvciBQ?= =?gb2312?b?UFNQ?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:37:03 -0000 Hi, please see in-line. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C221=C8=D5 16:10 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Ning Zong; ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall = Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >Do you mean that IETF will not do something that has been already well >deployed and studied by other body? Lets say, if a solution for a problem is reasonable, implemented, = deployed and allready available Under reasonable conditions, they would not do something in this field. For example, in P2PSIP, they allways excluded the invention of a new DHT algorithm. [ZONG NING]: Well, we are not going to define new mechanisms for p2p = file sharing in PPSP, we are going to reuse some of current p2p techniques, = e.g. chunk availability exchange. Just like P2PSIP adopt Chord as a basic DHT algorithm. My intension was - to narrow down the scope of the PPSP charter to a reasonable size [ZONG NING]: Yes, we are trying to narrow down the scope to only the signaling between peers, or peer and tracker. We will definitely = continue to consider which functions we need to include (e.g. some advanced = streaming characters, Codec, etc.). - to differentiate from existing solutions, e.g. Bittorent [ZONG NING]: Yes, we will try to point out the differences between Bittorrent and VoD. Do you have good ideas on this issue? - to differentiate from P2PSIP work [ZONG NING]: Yes, we will definitely do this. Regards Christian =20 -----Original Message----- From: ext Ning Zong [mailto:zongning@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:57 AM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); 'ext Mcdysan, David E'; 'Marshall Eubanks'; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi, Schmidt, I have another comment. Please see in-line. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C220=C8=D5 12:41 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin = (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi Dave, I think thats a good approach for the problem. We should distinguish between: Live Streaming (e.g. TV Broadcast): - The user can connect / disconnect to a video stream (no influence to = the video stream with start/stop, forward/rewind). - The user can either just watch the programm or additional store the information in a file (DVR). - The file would be available for further proceedings.=20 File Sharing: - The user can download files containing video material. - The user can imidiately start to display the content. - The file is available for further proceedings. The File Sharing case is allready covered by p2p technique available = today.=20 Therefore, PPSP should focus on the Live Streaming case. [ZONG NING]: I agree that VoD is quite similar to file sharing and P2P = file sharing has been well deployed. My point is that we are doing standard protocol in PPSP which is still new to IETF. We will examine the common parts of current P2P technique and see how much we can reuse them in = PPSP. Do you mean that IETF will not do something that has been already well deployed and studied by other body? Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Mcdysan, David E Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:19 PM To: Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP IMHO, what Marshall states was my perception of the problem being solved = by PPSP from the Bar BoF discussion in Stockholm -- delivery of live = content, which could use multicast groups in portions of the network where they = were available. As Xiao Lin stated in a post earlier today, stop/start, slow motion, = rewind, fast forward, start from beginning can be solved by other applications (local or remote from the user device), such as the file transfer implemented by P2P today. There are a number of posts and some comments in the Stockholm meeting = that cited streaming movies as an example, and I think there is already P2P = file transfer technology to meet this need if the DVR type function is implemented on the user device. There is a potential application for a = DVR style service that is not implemented in the end device, and implemented = in some remote location, but in my opinion this is not streaming and is a separable problem. Once you have stop/start times and or forward/rewind = or different speeds, multicast cannot be used. Thanks, Dave=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:27 AM > To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 >=20 > On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: >=20 > > Agree with Yunfei. > > > > IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or=20 > VoD, is simply=20 > > composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. >=20 > In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file,=20 > just the stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event,=20 > there is streaming of video, and no file even exists (and,=20 > frequently, there is not even a clear stop time, as the=20 > stream will last as long as the event does). =20 > I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling=20 > level. (If I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time,=20 > and I may want the entire movie downloaded. If I am watching=20 > the Olympics, the start time may have been days before, the=20 > stop time days later, and I am unlikely to want to download=20 > the entire period.) >=20 > Regards > Marshall >=20 > > The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact chunks=20 > > required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the=20 > exact peers=20 > > with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and play=20 > > locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first two=20 > > issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the=20 > downloading=20 > > process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going=20 > > forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by=20 > applications=20 > > locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is too much=20 > > difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. > > > > > > > > BR > > Xiao Lin > > > > From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM > > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/=20 > > Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple=20 > > sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or=20 > > forwards the movie, user B will change to update the=20 > peerlist if there=20 > > is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live=20 > > streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little=20 > > diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live=20 > streaming and VoD=20 > > streaming. > > We may explore more in the different points of signaling=20 > interaction=20 > > in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should=20 > > exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-19 15:57:27 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext = zhangyunfei; David A. =20 > > Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would=20 > complicate the=20 > > system a lot. > > > > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like=20 > stop/start,=20 > > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > > - How to mange the following situation: > > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > > . User B download this move via User A. > > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt=20 > presentation or skip=20 > > parts of the movie? > > > > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server=20 > and peers.=20 > > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming=20 > from initial=20 > > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > > > > Regards > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > > To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from=20 > different peers,=20 > > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P=20 > > on-demand streaming in this level. > > > > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a=20 > > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles=20 > > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully=20 > > downloaded. > > > > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the=20 > > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time=20 > > video the start point of the downloading is related to=20 > current time,=20 > > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of=20 > the movie=20 > > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time=20 > system may=20 > > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However,=20 > these could=20 > > be configured by different applications themselves. > > > > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP=20 > protocol for both=20 > > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be=20 > > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > > > > BR > > Lin Xiao > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More=20 > > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I=20 > think in the=20 > > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming=20 > > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of=20 > pre-recorded=20 > > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements=20 > to realize=20 > > the whole systems for live streaming and pre- recorded streaming. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I think the discussion still leads back to the open =20 > > question from the > > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live =20 > > streaming or > > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a =20 > movie, for =20 > > example). At > > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was =20 > > still an open > > question. > > > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs =20 > > chunks, > > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is =20 > > concerned about > > the location of peers with chunks, finding the =20 > appropriate =20 > > chunks, and > > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time =20 > > issues > > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to =20 > > the above, you > > would need to discuss the real-time issues that =20 > folks are =20 > > bringing up > > in this thread. > > > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which =20 > > problem is > > this group looking to solve? > > > > David > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks=20 > > wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. =20 > > (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 =20 > and MPEG4 =20 > > (for HDTV). > > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses =20 > these kind =20 > > of compression for > > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this =20 > > purpose? > > > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 =20 > > of the chunks fails, > > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every =20 > > 4th packet), not only a > > > > few packets. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to =20 > > use something like the > > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as =20 > > Annex G) of the H.264 > > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC =20 > allows for =20 > > degradation rather > > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream =20 > > are lost or dropped. > > > > > > Regards > > > Marshall > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =20 > > On Behalf Of > > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in =20 > > the mailing list.So > > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > > 2009-08-18 > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned =20 > > streaming, which is used for > > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors =20 > > what parts of a movie a > > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is =20 > subdivided into =20 > > several chunks? > > > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming =20 > > is partitioned into > > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the =20 > > widespread peers. > > > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a =20 > compressed =20 > > media stream into > > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When =20 > > does it happen?How to > > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway =20 > > the partition process > > > > should be independent of the compression process=20 > as I =20 > > understand. > > > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources =20 > > drop during a PPSP > > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk =20 > discovery? What =20 > > happens to the stream > > > > in between? > > > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery =20 > > in case of chunk source > > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet =20 > > drop.And this is the reason > > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You =20 > > mean what happens to > > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ppsp mailing list > > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Fri Aug 21 02:24:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E26D83A69AF for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 02:24:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.538 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.538 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.928, BAYES_00=-2.599, CN_BODY_35=0.339, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AGMSAI8eIzbO for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 02:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [217.115.75.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A323A6B12 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 02:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7L9OFxh029087 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:24:15 +0200 Received: from demuexc024.nsn-intra.net (demuexc024.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.11]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7L9OEk8029505; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:24:15 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc024.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:24:15 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:24:13 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003701ca223a$5f9eca50$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Thread-Index: AcogwAjYCwz/ZoXlRCCbg+kHo93YqQABiPKwACHOpyAAOZEnkAAAgSEgAADXWMAAAfeWgA== References: <003701ca223a$5f9eca50$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext Ning Zong" , "ext Mcdysan, David E" , "Marshall Eubanks" , "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2009 09:24:15.0075 (UTC) FILETIME=[26AFBB30:01CA2241] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:24:36 -0000 Hi, For this purpose an actual version of the planned PPSP WG charter would = be helpful. Can somebody please provide an actual version?=20 BR Christian -----Original Message----- From: ext Ning Zong [mailto:zongning@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:36 AM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); 'ext Mcdysan, David E'; = 'Marshall Eubanks'; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi, please see in-line. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C221=C8=D5 16:10 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Ning Zong; ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall = Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >Do you mean that IETF will not do something that has been already well >deployed and studied by other body? Lets say, if a solution for a problem is reasonable, implemented, = deployed and allready available Under reasonable conditions, they would not do something in this field. For example, in P2PSIP, they allways excluded the invention of a new DHT algorithm. [ZONG NING]: Well, we are not going to define new mechanisms for p2p = file sharing in PPSP, we are going to reuse some of current p2p techniques, = e.g. chunk availability exchange. Just like P2PSIP adopt Chord as a basic DHT algorithm. My intension was - to narrow down the scope of the PPSP charter to a reasonable size [ZONG NING]: Yes, we are trying to narrow down the scope to only the signaling between peers, or peer and tracker. We will definitely = continue to consider which functions we need to include (e.g. some advanced = streaming characters, Codec, etc.). - to differentiate from existing solutions, e.g. Bittorent [ZONG NING]: Yes, we will try to point out the differences between Bittorrent and VoD. Do you have good ideas on this issue? - to differentiate from P2PSIP work [ZONG NING]: Yes, we will definitely do this. Regards Christian =20 -----Original Message----- From: ext Ning Zong [mailto:zongning@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:57 AM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); 'ext Mcdysan, David E'; 'Marshall Eubanks'; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi, Schmidt, I have another comment. Please see in-line. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C220=C8=D5 12:41 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin = (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi Dave, I think thats a good approach for the problem. We should distinguish between: Live Streaming (e.g. TV Broadcast): - The user can connect / disconnect to a video stream (no influence to = the video stream with start/stop, forward/rewind). - The user can either just watch the programm or additional store the information in a file (DVR). - The file would be available for further proceedings.=20 File Sharing: - The user can download files containing video material. - The user can imidiately start to display the content. - The file is available for further proceedings. The File Sharing case is allready covered by p2p technique available = today.=20 Therefore, PPSP should focus on the Live Streaming case. [ZONG NING]: I agree that VoD is quite similar to file sharing and P2P = file sharing has been well deployed. My point is that we are doing standard protocol in PPSP which is still new to IETF. We will examine the common parts of current P2P technique and see how much we can reuse them in = PPSP. Do you mean that IETF will not do something that has been already well deployed and studied by other body? Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Mcdysan, David E Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:19 PM To: Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP IMHO, what Marshall states was my perception of the problem being solved = by PPSP from the Bar BoF discussion in Stockholm -- delivery of live = content, which could use multicast groups in portions of the network where they = were available. As Xiao Lin stated in a post earlier today, stop/start, slow motion, = rewind, fast forward, start from beginning can be solved by other applications (local or remote from the user device), such as the file transfer implemented by P2P today. There are a number of posts and some comments in the Stockholm meeting = that cited streaming movies as an example, and I think there is already P2P = file transfer technology to meet this need if the DVR type function is implemented on the user device. There is a potential application for a = DVR style service that is not implemented in the end device, and implemented = in some remote location, but in my opinion this is not streaming and is a separable problem. Once you have stop/start times and or forward/rewind = or different speeds, multicast cannot be used. Thanks, Dave=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:27 AM > To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 >=20 > On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: >=20 > > Agree with Yunfei. > > > > IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or=20 > VoD, is simply=20 > > composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. >=20 > In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file,=20 > just the stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event,=20 > there is streaming of video, and no file even exists (and,=20 > frequently, there is not even a clear stop time, as the=20 > stream will last as long as the event does). =20 > I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling=20 > level. (If I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time,=20 > and I may want the entire movie downloaded. If I am watching=20 > the Olympics, the start time may have been days before, the=20 > stop time days later, and I am unlikely to want to download=20 > the entire period.) >=20 > Regards > Marshall >=20 > > The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact chunks=20 > > required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the=20 > exact peers=20 > > with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and play=20 > > locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first two=20 > > issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the=20 > downloading=20 > > process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going=20 > > forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by=20 > applications=20 > > locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is too much=20 > > difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. > > > > > > > > BR > > Xiao Lin > > > > From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM > > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/=20 > > Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple=20 > > sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or=20 > > forwards the movie, user B will change to update the=20 > peerlist if there=20 > > is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live=20 > > streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little=20 > > diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live=20 > streaming and VoD=20 > > streaming. > > We may explore more in the different points of signaling=20 > interaction=20 > > in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should=20 > > exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-19 15:57:27 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext = zhangyunfei; David A. =20 > > Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would=20 > complicate the=20 > > system a lot. > > > > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like=20 > stop/start,=20 > > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > > - How to mange the following situation: > > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > > . User B download this move via User A. > > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt=20 > presentation or skip=20 > > parts of the movie? > > > > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server=20 > and peers.=20 > > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming=20 > from initial=20 > > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > > > > Regards > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > > To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from=20 > different peers,=20 > > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P=20 > > on-demand streaming in this level. > > > > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a=20 > > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles=20 > > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully=20 > > downloaded. > > > > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the=20 > > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time=20 > > video the start point of the downloading is related to=20 > current time,=20 > > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of=20 > the movie=20 > > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time=20 > system may=20 > > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However,=20 > these could=20 > > be configured by different applications themselves. > > > > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP=20 > protocol for both=20 > > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be=20 > > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > > > > BR > > Lin Xiao > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More=20 > > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I=20 > think in the=20 > > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming=20 > > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of=20 > pre-recorded=20 > > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements=20 > to realize=20 > > the whole systems for live streaming and pre- recorded streaming. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I think the discussion still leads back to the open =20 > > question from the > > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live =20 > > streaming or > > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a =20 > movie, for =20 > > example). At > > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was =20 > > still an open > > question. > > > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs =20 > > chunks, > > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is =20 > > concerned about > > the location of peers with chunks, finding the =20 > appropriate =20 > > chunks, and > > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time =20 > > issues > > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to =20 > > the above, you > > would need to discuss the real-time issues that =20 > folks are =20 > > bringing up > > in this thread. > > > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which =20 > > problem is > > this group looking to solve? > > > > David > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks=20 > > wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. =20 > > (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 =20 > and MPEG4 =20 > > (for HDTV). > > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses =20 > these kind =20 > > of compression for > > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this =20 > > purpose? > > > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 =20 > > of the chunks fails, > > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every =20 > > 4th packet), not only a > > > > few packets. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to =20 > > use something like the > > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as =20 > > Annex G) of the H.264 > > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC =20 > allows for =20 > > degradation rather > > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream =20 > > are lost or dropped. > > > > > > Regards > > > Marshall > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =20 > > On Behalf Of > > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in =20 > > the mailing list.So > > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > > 2009-08-18 > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned =20 > > streaming, which is used for > > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors =20 > > what parts of a movie a > > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is =20 > subdivided into =20 > > several chunks? > > > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming =20 > > is partitioned into > > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the =20 > > widespread peers. > > > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a =20 > compressed =20 > > media stream into > > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When =20 > > does it happen?How to > > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway =20 > > the partition process > > > > should be independent of the compression process=20 > as I =20 > > understand. > > > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources =20 > > drop during a PPSP > > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk =20 > discovery? What =20 > > happens to the stream > > > > in between? > > > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery =20 > > in case of chunk source > > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet =20 > > drop.And this is the reason > > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You =20 > > mean what happens to > > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ppsp mailing list > > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zongning@huawei.com Fri Aug 21 02:33:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29373A6A1E for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 02:33:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -91.665 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-91.665 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.004, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FXNWuMx0H4x7 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 02:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6019E3A68F0 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 02:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOP00I23ZSI8G@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:31:30 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KOP00KY9ZSG15@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:31:28 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316 ([10.164.12.81]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KOP004ATZSG17@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:31:28 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:31:28 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: To: "'Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)'" , "'ext Mcdysan, David E'" , 'Marshall Eubanks' , "'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'" Message-id: <003b01ca2242$290882d0$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcogwAjYCwz/ZoXlRCCbg+kHo93YqQABiPKwACHOpyAAOZEnkAAAgSEgAADXWMAAAfeWgAAAMMOA Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIEZ3OiBNZWFuaW5nIG9mIENodW5rIGZvciBQ?= =?gb2312?b?UFNQ?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:33:51 -0000 Hi, Schmidt Yunfei and I are drafting the PPSP charter now. It will be available soon (hopefully within 2 weeks) for list = discussions. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C221=C8=D5 17:24 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Ning Zong; ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall = Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi, For this purpose an actual version of the planned PPSP WG charter would = be helpful. Can somebody please provide an actual version?=20 BR Christian -----Original Message----- From: ext Ning Zong [mailto:zongning@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:36 AM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); 'ext Mcdysan, David E'; 'Marshall Eubanks'; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi, please see in-line. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C221=C8=D5 16:10 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Ning Zong; ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall = Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >Do you mean that IETF will not do something that has been already well >deployed and studied by other body? Lets say, if a solution for a problem is reasonable, implemented, = deployed and allready available Under reasonable conditions, they would not do something in this field. For example, in P2PSIP, they allways excluded the invention of a new DHT algorithm. [ZONG NING]: Well, we are not going to define new mechanisms for p2p = file sharing in PPSP, we are going to reuse some of current p2p techniques, = e.g. chunk availability exchange. Just like P2PSIP adopt Chord as a basic DHT algorithm. My intension was - to narrow down the scope of the PPSP charter to a reasonable size [ZONG NING]: Yes, we are trying to narrow down the scope to only the signaling between peers, or peer and tracker. We will definitely = continue to consider which functions we need to include (e.g. some advanced = streaming characters, Codec, etc.). - to differentiate from existing solutions, e.g. Bittorent [ZONG NING]: Yes, we will try to point out the differences between Bittorrent and VoD. Do you have good ideas on this issue? - to differentiate from P2PSIP work [ZONG NING]: Yes, we will definitely do this. Regards Christian =20 -----Original Message----- From: ext Ning Zong [mailto:zongning@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:57 AM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); 'ext Mcdysan, David E'; 'Marshall Eubanks'; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi, Schmidt, I have another comment. Please see in-line. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2009=C4=EA8=D4=C220=C8=D5 12:41 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Mcdysan, David E; Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin = (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP Hi Dave, I think thats a good approach for the problem. We should distinguish between: Live Streaming (e.g. TV Broadcast): - The user can connect / disconnect to a video stream (no influence to = the video stream with start/stop, forward/rewind). - The user can either just watch the programm or additional store the information in a file (DVR). - The file would be available for further proceedings.=20 File Sharing: - The user can download files containing video material. - The user can imidiately start to display the content. - The file is available for further proceedings. The File Sharing case is allready covered by p2p technique available = today.=20 Therefore, PPSP should focus on the Live Streaming case. [ZONG NING]: I agree that VoD is quite similar to file sharing and P2P = file sharing has been well deployed. My point is that we are doing standard protocol in PPSP which is still new to IETF. We will examine the common parts of current P2P technique and see how much we can reuse them in = PPSP. Do you mean that IETF will not do something that has been already well deployed and studied by other body? Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Mcdysan, David E Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:19 PM To: Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP IMHO, what Marshall states was my perception of the problem being solved = by PPSP from the Bar BoF discussion in Stockholm -- delivery of live = content, which could use multicast groups in portions of the network where they = were available. As Xiao Lin stated in a post earlier today, stop/start, slow motion, = rewind, fast forward, start from beginning can be solved by other applications (local or remote from the user device), such as the file transfer implemented by P2P today. There are a number of posts and some comments in the Stockholm meeting = that cited streaming movies as an example, and I think there is already P2P = file transfer technology to meet this need if the DVR type function is implemented on the user device. There is a potential application for a = DVR style service that is not implemented in the end device, and implemented = in some remote location, but in my opinion this is not streaming and is a separable problem. Once you have stop/start times and or forward/rewind = or different speeds, multicast cannot be used. Thanks, Dave=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:27 AM > To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 >=20 > On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: >=20 > > Agree with Yunfei. > > > > IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or=20 > VoD, is simply=20 > > composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. >=20 > In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file,=20 > just the stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event,=20 > there is streaming of video, and no file even exists (and,=20 > frequently, there is not even a clear stop time, as the=20 > stream will last as long as the event does). =20 > I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling=20 > level. (If I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time,=20 > and I may want the entire movie downloaded. If I am watching=20 > the Olympics, the start time may have been days before, the=20 > stop time days later, and I am unlikely to want to download=20 > the entire period.) >=20 > Regards > Marshall >=20 > > The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact chunks=20 > > required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the=20 > exact peers=20 > > with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and play=20 > > locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first two=20 > > issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the=20 > downloading=20 > > process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going=20 > > forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by=20 > applications=20 > > locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is too much=20 > > difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. > > > > > > > > BR > > Xiao Lin > > > > From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM > > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/=20 > > Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple=20 > > sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or=20 > > forwards the movie, user B will change to update the=20 > peerlist if there=20 > > is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live=20 > > streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little=20 > > diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live=20 > streaming and VoD=20 > > streaming. > > We may explore more in the different points of signaling=20 > interaction=20 > > in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should=20 > > exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-19 15:57:27 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext = zhangyunfei; David A. =20 > > Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would=20 > complicate the=20 > > system a lot. > > > > - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like=20 > stop/start,=20 > > slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > > - How to mange the following situation: > > . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > > . User B download this move via User A. > > . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt=20 > presentation or skip=20 > > parts of the movie? > > > > So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server=20 > and peers.=20 > > Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming=20 > from initial=20 > > goals. If needed, this could be added later. > > > > Regards > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > > To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from=20 > different peers,=20 > > there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P=20 > > on-demand streaming in this level. > > > > Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a=20 > > certain time range and then another in order.The player reassembles=20 > > the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully=20 > > downloaded. > > > > The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the=20 > > downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real time=20 > > video the start point of the downloading is related to=20 > current time,=20 > > while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of=20 > the movie=20 > > or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time=20 > system may=20 > > be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However,=20 > these could=20 > > be configured by different applications themselves. > > > > So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP=20 > protocol for both=20 > > systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could be=20 > > proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > > > > BR > > Lin Xiao > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext zhangyunfei > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More=20 > > discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I=20 > think in the=20 > > signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live streaming=20 > > should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of=20 > pre-recorded=20 > > streaming.Of course there are many different requirements=20 > to realize=20 > > the whole systems for live streaming and pre- recorded streaming. > > > > Yunfei > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2009-08-19 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Marshall Eubanks > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > I think the discussion still leads back to the open =20 > > question from the > > Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live =20 > > streaming or > > getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a =20 > movie, for =20 > > example). At > > the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was =20 > > still an open > > question. > > > > If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs =20 > > chunks, > > reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is =20 > > concerned about > > the location of peers with chunks, finding the =20 > appropriate =20 > > chunks, and > > possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time =20 > > issues > > wouldn't be covered in this group. > > > > If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to =20 > > the above, you > > would need to discuss the real-time issues that =20 > folks are =20 > > bringing up > > in this thread. > > > > It would be interesting to see what people think. Which =20 > > problem is > > this group looking to solve? > > > > David > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks=20 > > wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. =20 > > (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yunfei, > > > > > > > > thanks for forwarding to the list. > > > > > > > > With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 =20 > and MPEG4 =20 > > (for HDTV). > > > > As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses =20 > these kind =20 > > of compression for > > > > broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > > > > What kind of codec do you want to use for this =20 > > purpose? > > > > > > > > If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 =20 > > of the chunks fails, > > > > then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > > > > because you would lose a lot of information (every =20 > > 4th packet), not only a > > > > few packets. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to =20 > > use something like the > > > Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as =20 > > Annex G) of the H.264 > > > video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC =20 > allows for =20 > > degradation rather > > > than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream =20 > > are lost or dropped. > > > > > > Regards > > > Marshall > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =20 > > On Behalf Of > > > > ext zhangyunfei > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > > > > To: ppsp@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > I am not sure if Christian's message is received in =20 > > the mailing list.So > > > > redirect it.Some replies are inline. > > > > > > > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > zhangyunfei > > > > 2009-08-18 > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > > > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-18 16:10:55 > > > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei > > > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > > > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > > > > > The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > > > > > > > > Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned =20 > > streaming, which is used for > > > > the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors =20 > > what parts of a movie a > > > > peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > > > > > > > > Am I right, that one media stream is =20 > subdivided into =20 > > several chunks? > > > > > > > > Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming =20 > > is partitioned into > > > > chunks which are distributed and stored by the =20 > > widespread peers. > > > > > > > > Can you describe, how the distribution of a =20 > compressed =20 > > media stream into > > > > several chunks can be achieved? > > > > > > > > I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When =20 > > does it happen?How to > > > > play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway =20 > > the partition process > > > > should be independent of the compression process=20 > as I =20 > > understand. > > > > > > > > What happens, if one of the required chunk sources =20 > > drop during a PPSP > > > > session? Partial or complete new chunk =20 > discovery? What =20 > > happens to the stream > > > > in between? > > > > > > > > In general there is no need of new chunk discovery =20 > > in case of chunk source > > > > drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet =20 > > drop.And this is the reason > > > > why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > > > > > > > > What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You =20 > > mean what happens to > > > > the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ppsp mailing list > > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ppsp mailing list > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Tue Aug 25 01:32:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A71328C19E for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:32:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.09 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id woY594KC1+v5 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com (mail-bw0-f219.google.com [209.85.218.219]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A41828C352 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so1909328bwz.37 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:32:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:cc:references :in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:thread-index:content-language; bh=nL8pN71RtTgKzKJiq+R+uF9/uBvyODKFMvP/1a7+Juk=; b=T2wkfsna2Ph0mNmKagUIu7Sv6CP4ogf4QYVWtv1U5yskVvBhkyDPpJwvWf/+e2cEHb UCsuAO0evlBJtulMv+f0pYP8s/ojCN591lcytyWWnBS882ZYgljhKoO7NY05hUDqFodN h40gG+1EncKGl9gNLd5f9B2dwWY6m807FZRgk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer :thread-index:content-language; b=nJwNjw2fwlWIXLb7X1mIucqi5JPO3x8XaWPDF+59eKso8hvkfyeA4VT6TMMKXb1TFw d9py+CYmVl+LtQ1NJe0VRr0cW8g2xx5aa65HzwuLhpDoKpIUdIqgBTxAgL6VHJiJ+GSb WJCwIVg3k+m1c3IpK2g8YFyQ3Fn+N70Gy/Rwc= Received: by 10.103.87.27 with SMTP id p27mr2433591mul.125.1251189167189; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windows8d787f9 (bzq-79-177-73-53.red.bezeqint.net [79.177.73.53]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y2sm26645257mug.42.2009.08.25.01.32.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:32:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Marshall Eubanks'" , "'Schmidt, Christian 1. \(NSN - DE/Munich\)'" References: <200908181651196872784@chinamobile.com><0CB03390-D096-45F9-A6C2-1C2381D035CE@americafree.tv><8b2769930908180733q275636capb2919ae642f82aa6@mail.gmail.com><200908191221165003989@chinamobile.com><5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A681F9@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><200908191616502038210@chinamobile.com><5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA4A6845D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><452C09DD-C9B9-41DE-A2BD-9064EFDA98A2@americafree.tv> <793F49BA1FC821409F99F10862A0E4DB03A63D66@FHDP1LUMXCV14.us.one.verizon.com> <2AAF5F2E-AA9D-4E9B-8B23-816A27A538B1@americafree.tv> In-Reply-To: <2AAF5F2E-AA9D-4E9B-8B23-816A27A538B1@americafree.tv> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:32:20 +0300 Message-ID: <4a93a1af.02e2660a.4566.2899@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcohjnQT1xQvzd7FStSygUUeuj8vbgDz4b3g Content-Language: en-us Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:32:46 -0000 Hi Marshall, P2P Video conferencing and tele-presence are based on P2PSIP. What is = the use case for PPSP for these applications since the content is point = to point in most cases and not distributed to multiple listeners. Roni Even > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of > Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 3:04 PM > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP >=20 >=20 > On Aug 20, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > wrote: >=20 > > Hi Dave, > > > > I think thats a good approach for the problem. We should distinguish > > between: > > > > Live Streaming (e.g. TV Broadcast): > > - The user can connect / disconnect to a video stream (no influence > > to the video stream with start/stop, forward/rewind). > > - The user can either just watch the programm or additional store > > the information in a file (DVR). > > - The file would be available for further proceedings. > > >=20 > These is also video-conferencing, which is similar to TV Broadcast, > but is generally duplex, has latency restrictions, no file structure > at all and (typically) no need to recover old data (in other words, > past a certain latency delayed packets can be regarded as lost). >=20 > I would hope PPSP would support videoconferencing and telepresence as > well. >=20 > Regards > Marshall >=20 > > File Sharing: > > - The user can download files containing video material. > > - The user can imidiately start to display the content. > > - The file is available for further proceedings. > > > > The File Sharing case is allready covered by p2p technique available > > today. > > Therefore, PPSP should focus on the Live Streaming case. > > > > Best Regards > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > > Of ext Mcdysan, David E > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:19 PM > > To: Marshall Eubanks; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > > > > IMHO, what Marshall states was my perception of the problem being > > solved by PPSP from the Bar BoF discussion in Stockholm -- delivery > > of live content, which could use multicast groups in portions of the > > network where they were available. > > > > As Xiao Lin stated in a post earlier today, stop/start, slow motion, > > rewind, fast forward, start from beginning can be solved by other > > applications (local or remote from the user device), such as the > > file transfer implemented by P2P today. > > > > There are a number of posts and some comments in the Stockholm > > meeting that cited streaming movies as an example, and I think there > > is already P2P file transfer technology to meet this need if the DVR > > type function is implemented on the user device. There is a > > potential application for a DVR style service that is not > > implemented in the end device, and implemented in some remote > > location, but in my opinion this is not streaming and is a separable > > problem. Once you have stop/start times and or forward/rewind or > > different speeds, multicast cannot be used. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Dave > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On > >> Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:27 AM > >> To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > >> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > >> > >> > >> On Aug 19, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) wrote: > >> > >>> Agree with Yunfei. > >>> > >>> IMHO, the procedure of P2P streaming, no matter live or > >> VoD, is simply > >>> composed of DOWNLOADING and PLAYING. > >> > >> In live streaming, there is generally no concept of a file, > >> just the stream. If you are watching, e.g., a sports event, > >> there is streaming of video, and no file even exists (and, > >> frequently, there is not even a clear stop time, as the > >> stream will last as long as the event does). > >> I think that this will affect things, even at the signaling > >> level. (If I watch a movie, there is a start and stop time, > >> and I may want the entire movie downloaded. If I am watching > >> the Olympics, the start time may have been days before, the > >> stop time days later, and I am unlikely to want to download > >> the entire period.) > >> > >> Regards > >> Marshall > >> > >>> The issues here are what to download (to make sure the exact = chunks > >>> required to be downloaded); where to download (to find the > >> exact peers > >>> with required chunks) and how to reassemble the chunks and play > >>> locally (out of scope of PPSP). PPSP tries to solve the first two > >>> issues above, i.e.locating the resource and scheduling the > >> downloading > >>> process. Others (e.g.stop/start, slow motion, fast motion, going > >>> forward, going back, repeat the video) can be solved by > >> applications > >>> locally if applicable. So, I still don't think there is too much > >>> difference between them in the signaling level of PPSP. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> BR > >>> Xiao Lin > >>> > >>> From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:17 PM > >>> To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/ > >>> Beijing); David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > >>> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > >>> Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > >>> > >>> Genearlly speaking,user B will download the moive from multiple > >>> sources,user A,user C,,,User N.Once userA drops the network or > >>> forwards the movie, user B will change to update the > >> peerlist if there > >>> is no enough peers accommodating userB.This is same as live > >>> streaming.So for each user at a certain time,there is little > >>> diffrerence in signaling interaction in case of live > >> streaming and VoD > >>> streaming. > >>> We may explore more in the different points of signaling > >> interaction > >>> in case of live streaming and VoD streaming to see if we should > >>> exclude or include VoD streaming from begining. > >>> > >>> BR > >>> Yunfei > >>> zhangyunfei > >>> 2009-08-19 > >>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - = DE/Munich) > >>> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-19 15:57:27 > >>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); = ext zhangyunfei; David A. > >>> Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > >>> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org > >>> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A RE: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for = PPSP > >>> > >>> Additional requirements for on-demand streaming would > >> complicate the > >>> system a lot. > >>> > >>> - In on-demand streaming system, you have functions like > >> stop/start, > >>> slow motion, fast motion, going forward, going back, repeat.... > >>> - How to mange the following situation: > >>> . User A download an on-demand stream for a movie. > >>> . User B download this move via User A. > >>> . What to do with User B, if User A interrupt > >> presentation or skip > >>> parts of the movie? > >>> > >>> So you see, it brings a lot of complexity to content server > >> and peers. > >>> Therefore I would propose, to exclude on-demand streaming > >> from initial > >>> goals. If needed, this could be added later. > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> Christian > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] > >> On Behalf > >>> Of ext Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:26 AM > >>> To: ext zhangyunfei; David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > >>> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > >>> Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > >>> > >>> As PPSP is focusing on locating required chunks from > >> different peers, > >>> there is no much difference between P2P live streaming and P2P > >>> on-demand streaming in this level. > >>> > >>> Both of the two systems need find and download chunks to fulfill a > >>> certain time range and then another in order.The player = reassembles > >>> the chunks and starts to play once the first time range is fully > >>> downloaded. > >>> > >>> The main differences, I think, are where the start point of the > >>> downloading is and how long a time range is for play. For real = time > >>> video the start point of the downloading is related to > >> current time, > >>> while for on-demand system it always from the beginning of > >> the movie > >>> or where the user want it to start. Moreover, the real time > >> system may > >>> be more sensitive to the length of a time range. However, > >> these could > >>> be configured by different applications themselves. > >>> > >>> So, I think, it is possible to design a common PPSP > >> protocol for both > >>> systems. The specific requirements for real time streaming could = be > >>> proposed as an extension of PPSP if necessary. > >>> > >>> BR > >>> Lin Xiao > >>> > >>> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] > >> On Behalf > >>> Of ext zhangyunfei > >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM > >>> To: David A. Bryan; Marshall Eubanks > >>> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > >>> Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > >>> > >>> Yes, I agree with David's opinion.This is an open question.More > >>> discussions are needed in the mailing list. Personally I > >> think in the > >>> signaling level, the requirement for the protocol of live = streaming > >>> should NATUALLY back-compatible meet the requirements of > >> pre-recorded > >>> streaming.Of course there are many different requirements > >> to realize > >>> the whole systems for live streaming and pre- recorded streaming. > >>> > >>> Yunfei > >>> > >>> zhangyunfei > >>> 2009-08-19 > >>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A David A. Bryan > >>> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-18 22:33:28 > >>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Marshall Eubanks > >>> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org > >>> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for = PPSP > >>> > >>> I think the discussion still leads back to the open > >>> question from the > >>> Stockholm meeting of whether we are talking about live > >>> streaming or > >>> getting chunks of a pre-recorded video file (a > >> movie, for > >>> example). At > >>> the end of the meeting, the chairs noted that this was > >>> still an open > >>> question. > >>> > >>> If we are getting a pre-recorded file, then one grabs > >>> chunks, > >>> reassembles locally, and plays -- the group then is > >>> concerned about > >>> the location of peers with chunks, finding the > >> appropriate > >>> chunks, and > >>> possibly the protocol to obtain them, but the real time > >>> issues > >>> wouldn't be covered in this group. > >>> > >>> If it is about true live streaming, then in addition to > >>> the above, you > >>> would need to discuss the real-time issues that > >> folks are > >>> bringing up > >>> in this thread. > >>> > >>> It would be interesting to see what people think. Which > >>> problem is > >>> this group looking to solve? > >>> > >>> David > >>> > >>> > >>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> On Aug 18, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. > >>> (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi Yunfei, > >>>>> > >>>>> thanks for forwarding to the list. > >>>>> > >>>>> With compressed media, I thought about MPEG2 > >> and MPEG4 > >>> (for HDTV). > >>>>> As far as I know, digial broadcasting uses > >> these kind > >>> of compression for > >>>>> broadcasting to reduce needed bandwith. > >>>>> What kind of codec do you want to use for this > >>> purpose? > >>>>> > >>>>> If you devide one media stream into 4 chunks and 1 > >>> of the chunks fails, > >>>>> then this would cause a severere loss of quality, > >>>>> because you would lose a lot of information (every > >>> 4th packet), not only a > >>>>> few packets. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> It sounds that it would appropriate in this case to > >>> use something like the > >>>> Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension (also known as > >>> Annex G) of the H.264 > >>>> video codec now in common use for IPTV. SVC > >> allows for > >>> degradation rather > >>>> than complete loss of quality if "chunks" of a stream > >>> are lost or dropped. > >>>> > >>>> Regards > >>>> Marshall > >>>> > >>>>> Regards > >>>>> Christian Schmidt > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] > >>> On Behalf Of > >>>>> ext zhangyunfei > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM > >>>>> To: ppsp@ietf.org > >>>>> Subject: [ppsp] Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > >>>>> > >>>>> I am not sure if Christian's message is received in > >>> the mailing list.So > >>>>> redirect it.Some replies are inline. > >>>>> > >>>>> Yunfei > >>>>> > >>>>> zhangyunfei > >>>>> 2009-08-18 > >>>>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Schmidt, Christian 1. = (NSN - DE/Munich) > >>>>> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2009-08-18 = 16:10:55 > >>>>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ext zhangyunfei > >>>>> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp-bounces@ietf.org > >>>>> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Meaning of Chunk for PPSP > >>>>> > >>>>> The meaning of a chunk needs further clarification. > >>>>> > >>>>> Chunk: A chunk is a basic unit of partitioned > >>> streaming, which is used for > >>>>> the purpose of storage and advertising to neighbors > >>> what parts of a movie a > >>>>> peer holds [Sigcomm:P2P streaming]. > >>>>> > >>>>> Am I right, that one media stream is > >> subdivided into > >>> several chunks? > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes,you are right.As is stated in the paper,streaming > >>> is partitioned into > >>>>> chunks which are distributed and stored by the > >>> widespread peers. > >>>>> > >>>>> Can you describe, how the distribution of a > >> compressed > >>> media stream into > >>>>> several chunks can be achieved? > >>>>> > >>>>> I am not quite clear about "compressed media".When > >>> does it happen?How to > >>>>> play a compressed media stream in the player?Anyway > >>> the partition process > >>>>> should be independent of the compression process > >> as I > >>> understand. > >>>>> > >>>>> What happens, if one of the required chunk sources > >>> drop during a PPSP > >>>>> session? Partial or complete new chunk > >> discovery? What > >>> happens to the stream > >>>>> in between? > >>>>> > >>>>> In general there is no need of new chunk discovery > >>> in case of chunk source > >>>>> drop because streaming is tolerent to the packet > >>> drop.And this is the reason > >>>>> why most P2P streaming applications use UDP directly. > >>>>> > >>>>> What do you mean of the last question,Christian?You > >>> mean what happens to > >>>>> the playing stream in case of chunk drop or what? > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards > >>>>> Christian Schmidt > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> ppsp mailing list > >>>>> ppsp@ietf.org > >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> ppsp mailing list > >>>> ppsp@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> ppsp mailing list > >>> ppsp@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ppsp mailing list > >> ppsp@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Tue Aug 25 01:49:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F2A63A6874 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:49:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -90.02 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.02 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-5.831, BAYES_50=0.001, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0PhVldXBWa41 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F02D3A67F5 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.0.196]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009082516494616-14727 ; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:49:46 +0800 Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:49:40 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Roni Even" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <002d01ca2233$6b3bd440$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> <4a93a356.09c5660a.3df1.4d04@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <200908251649400936092@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-25 16:49:46, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-08-25 16:49:59 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon475077525403_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?KioqU1BBTSoqKiA3LjA5MiAoNSkgUkU6ICC08Li0OiAg?= =?gb2312?b?Rnc6IE1lYW5pbmcgb2YgQ2h1bmsgZm9yIFBQU1A=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:49:55 -0000 --=====003_Dragon475077525403_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" 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I agree with Roni f= or the=20 suggestion of chunk definition and service type involvement.
 
           =   =20 Yunfei 
 
zhangyunfei=
2009-08-25
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Roni=20 Even
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= =A3=BA=20 2009-08-25 16:40:51
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] ***SPAM***=20 7.092 (5) RE: =B4=F0=B8=B4: Fw: Meaning of Chunk for PPSP
 
Hi,
I  think  that  that  a  common  definit= ion=20  of  a  chunk  should  be  in  the=20  charter
but  it  should  be  based  on  the=20  various  use  cases  that  need  to  be= =20  in  scope  of
PPSP.  If  the  solution  is  for  live =  streaming  as  well  as  for  stored=20  content  it
should  be  eventually  reflected  in  the=20  chunk  description  enabling  both  case.
I  assume  that  this  will  require  as= =20  a  first  step  to  agree  on  the &nbs= p;use=20  cases.
I  agree  that  the  signaling  protocols=20  between  PPSP  peers"  is  one  but=20  it
should  address  the  in-scope  service=20  types.
 
Roni  Even
 
>  -----Original  Message-----
>  From:  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]  On  Behalf  Of
>  Ning  Zong
>  Sent:  Friday,  August  21,  2009=20  10:46  AM
>  To:  'Schmidt,  Christian  1.  (NSN &nb= sp;-=20  DE/Munich)';  'ext  Mcdysan,  David  E';
>  'Marshall  Eubanks';  'Xiao,  Lin  (NSN= =20  -  CN/Beijing)'
>  Cc:  ppsp@ietf.org
>  Subject:  [ppsp]  =B4=F0=B8=B4:  Fw:  M= eaning  of=20  Chunk  for  PPSP
>  
>  Hi  Schmidt  and  Dave,
>  
>  Regarding  the  focus  of  PPSP,  = I=20  would  prefer  to  use  the  term=20  =A1=B0signaling
>  protocol  between  PPSP  peers=A1=B1  i= nstead=20  of  service  types  such  as  =A1=B0live
>  streaming=A1=B1  or  =A1=B0file  sharing/VoD= =A1=B1,=20  because  some  requirements  to  the
>  protocols  to  be  developed  by  = PPSP=20  would  support  both  live  streaming  and
>  VoD.
>  For  an  instance,  even  in  live= =20  streaming,  we  support  the  cases  that=20  the
>  users
>  store  the  live  content  for  fu= rther=20  distribution  (as  pointed  out  by
>  Schmidt),
>  such  as  TSTV  (time-switch  TV)=20  where  the  stored  content  can  be=20  separated
>  into
>  chunks  and  distributed  in  a=20  VoD-like  manner.  That  is,  supporting=20  chunk
>  availabilities  exchange  among  peers=20  would  be  required  in  the  protocols
>  to  be
>  developed  by  PPSP.
>  Of  course,  it  is  definitely=20  helpful  to  discuss  which  scenarios  we=20  need
>  to
>  consider  and  support  in  order  = ;to=20  point  out  which
>  functionalities/parameters
>  we  need  put  into  the  PPSP=20  protocols.
>  
>  BR,
>  Ning  Zong
>  
>  -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----
>  =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]  =B4=FA=B1=ED
>  Schmidt,
>  Christian  1.  (NSN  -  DE/Munich)
>  =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:  2009=C4=EA8=D4=C220=C8=D5 &= nbsp;12:41
>  =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB:  ext  Mcdysan,  David &n= bsp;E;=20  Marshall  Eubanks;  Xiao,  Lin  (NSN  -
>  CN/Beijing)
>  =B3=AD=CB=CD:  ppsp@ietf.org
>  =D6=F7=CC=E2:  Re:  [ppsp]  Fw:  Meanin= g  of=20  Chunk  for  PPSP
>  
>  Hi  Dave,
>  
>  I  think  thats  a  good  approach= =20  for  the  problem.  We  should  distinguish<= /DIV>
>  between:
>  
>  Live  Streaming  (e.g.  TV=20  Broadcast):
>  -  The  user  can  connect  /=20  disconnect  to  a  video  stream  (no=20  influence  to
>  the
>  video  stream  with  start/stop,=20  forward/rewind).
>  -  The  user  can  either  just=20  watch  the  programm  or  additional  store =  the
>  information  in  a  file  (DVR).
>  -  The  file  would  be  available= =20  for  further  proceedings.
>  
>  File  Sharing:
>  -  The  user  can  download  files= =20  containing  video  material.
>  -  The  user  can  imidiately  sta= rt=20  to  display  the  content.
>  -  The  file  is  available  for=20  further  proceedings.
>  
>  The  File  Sharing  case  is  allr= eady=20  covered  by  p2p  technique  available
>  today.
>  Therefore,  PPSP  should  focus  on=20  the  Live  Streaming  case.
>  
>  Best  Regards
>  Christian  Schmidt
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  -----Original  Message-----
>  From:  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]  On  Behalf  Of
>  ext
>  Mcdysan,  David  E
>  Sent:  Wednesday,  August  19,  2009=20  2:19  PM
>  To:  Marshall  Eubanks;  Xiao,  Lin=20  (NSN  -  CN/Beijing)
>  Cc:  ppsp@ietf.org
>  Subject:  Re:  [ppsp]  Fw:  Meaning &nb= sp;of=20  Chunk  for  PPSP
>  
>  IMHO,  what  Marshall  states  was &nbs= p;my=20  perception  of  the  problem  being
>  solved  by
>  PPSP  from  the  Bar  BoF  discuss= ion=20  in  Stockholm  --  delivery  of  live
>  content,
>  which  could  use  multicast  groups=20  in  portions  of  the  network  where=20  they
>  were
>  available.
>  
>  As  Xiao  Lin  stated  in  a  = ;post=20  earlier  today,  stop/start,  slow  motion,
>  rewind,
>  fast  forward,  start  from  beginning =  can  be  solved  by  other  applications
>  (local  or  remote  from  the  use= r=20  device),  such  as  the  file  transfer
>  implemented  by  P2P  today.
>  
>  There  are  a  number  of  posts=20  and  some  comments  in  the  Stockholm=20  meeting
>  that
>  cited  streaming  movies  as  an=20  example,  and  I  think  there  is  alr= eady=20  P2P
>  file
>  transfer  technology  to  meet  this=20  need  if  the  DVR  type  function  is<= /DIV>
>  implemented  on  the  user  device.=20  There  is  a  potential  application  for=20  a
>  DVR
>  style  service  that  is  not=20  implemented  in  the  end  device,  and
>  implemented  in
>  some  remote  location,  but  in  = my=20  opinion  this  is  not  streaming  and  = ;is=20  a
>  separable  problem.  Once  you  have=20  stop/start  times  and  or  forward/rewind
>  or
>  different  speeds,  multicast  cannot  = be=20  used.
>  
>  Thanks,
>  
>  Dave
>  
>   >  -----Original  Message-----
>   >  From:  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]  On
>   >  Behalf  Of  Marshall  Eubanks
>   >  Sent:  Wednesday,  August  19,=20  2009  7:27  AM
>   >  To:  Xiao,  Lin  (NSN  -=20  CN/Beijing)
>   >  Cc:  ppsp@ietf.org
>   >  Subject:  Re:  [ppsp]  Fw:=20  Meaning  of  Chunk  for  PPSP
>   >
>   >
>   >  On  Aug  19,  2009,  at=20  4:50  AM,  Xiao,  Lin  (NSN  -  CN/Beij= ing)=20  wrote:
>   >
>   >   >  Agree  with  Yunfei.
>   >   >
>   >   >  IMHO,  the  procedure &nb= sp;of=20  P2P  streaming,  no  matter  live  or
>   >  VoD,  is  simply
>   >   >  composed  of  DOWNLOADING= =20  and  PLAYING.
>   >
>   >  In  live  streaming,  there &nbs= p;is=20  generally  no  concept  of  a  file,
>   >  just  the  stream.  If  you= =20  are  watching,  e.g.,  a  sports  event,
>   >  there  is  streaming  of  v= ideo,=20  and  no  file  even  exists  (and,
>   >  frequently,  there  is  not=20  even  a  clear  stop  time,  as  the
>   >  stream  will  last  as  lon= g=20  as  the  event  does).
>   >  I  think  that  this  will =  affect  things,  even  at  the  signaling
>   >  level.  (If  I  watch  a=20  movie,  there  is  a  start  and  stop =  time,
>   >  and  I  may  want  the=20  entire  movie  downloaded.  If  I  am=20  watching
>   >  the  Olympics,  the  start  = ;time=20  may  have  been  days  before,  the
>   >  stop  time  days  later,  a= nd=20  I  am  unlikely  to  want  to=20  download
>   >  the  entire  period.)
>   >
>   >  Regards
>   >  Marshall
>   >
>   >   >  The  issues  here  a= re=20  what  to  download  (to  make  sure  th= e=20  exact  chunks
>   >   >  required  to  be=20  downloaded);  where  to  download  (to  find= =20  the
>   >  exact  peers
>   >   >  with  required  chunks)=20  and  how  to  reassemble  the  chunks  = and=20  play
>   >   >  locally  (out  of  s= cope=20  of  PPSP).  PPSP  tries  to  solve  the= =20  first  two
>   >   >  issues  above,  i.e.locat= ing=20  the  resource  and  scheduling  the
>   >  downloading
>   >   >  process.  Others=20  (e.g.stop/start,  slow  motion,  fast  motion,=20  going
>   >   >  forward,  going  back,=20  repeat  the  video)  can  be  solved=20  by
>   >  applications
>   >   >  locally  if  applicable. =  So,  I  still  don't  think  there  is =  too  much
>   >   >  difference  between  them= =20  in  the  signaling  level  of  PPSP.
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >  BR
>   >   >  Xiao  Lin
>   >   >
>   >   >  From:  ext  zhangyunfei=20  [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
>   >   >  Sent:  Wednesday,  August= =20  19,  2009  4:17  PM
>   >   >  To:  Schmidt,  Christian =  1.  (NSN  -  DE/Munich);  Xiao,  Lin  (= NSN=20  -  CN/
>   >   >  Beijing);  David  A.=20  Bryan;  Marshall  Eubanks
>   >   >  Cc:  ppsp@ietf.org
>   >   >  Subject:  Re:  RE:=20  [ppsp]  Fw:  Meaning  of  Chunk  for=20  PPSP
>   >   >
>   >   >  Genearlly  speaking,user  = ;B=20  will  download  the  moive  from  multiple
>   >   >  sources,user  A,user  C,,= ,User=20  N.Once  userA  drops  the  network  or
>   >   >  forwards  the  movie,=20  user  B  will  change  to  update  the<= /DIV>
>   >  peerlist  if  there
>   >   >  is  no  enough  peer= s=20  accommodating  userB.This  is  same  as=20  live
>   >   >  streaming.So  for  each=20  user  at  a  certain  time,there  is=20  little
>   >   >  diffrerence  in  signalin= g=20  interaction  in  case  of  live
>   >  streaming  and  VoD
>   >   >  streaming.
>   >   >  We  may  explore  mo= re=20  in  the  different  points  of  signaling
>   >  interaction
>   >   >  in  case  of  live=20  streaming  and  VoD  streaming  to  see &nbs= p;if=20  we  should
>   >   >  exclude  or  include &nbs= p;VoD=20  streaming  from  begining.
>   >   >
>   >   >            = =20                      = ;=20                    =20  BR
>   >   >            = =20                      = ;=20                      = ;=20  Yunfei
>   >   >  zhangyunfei
>   >   >  2009-08-19
>   >   >  =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  Schm= idt,  Christian=20  1.  (NSN  -  DE/Munich)
>   >   >  =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA &nbs= p;2009-08-19=20  15:57:27
>   >   >  =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  Xiao= ,  Lin  (NSN=20  -  CN/Beijing);  ext  zhangyunfei;  David=20  A.
>   >   >  Bryan;  Marshall=20  Eubanks
>   >   >  =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA  ppsp@ietf.= org
>   >   >  =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA  RE:  = [ppsp]  Fw:=20  Meaning  of  Chunk  for  PPSP
>   >   >
>   >   >  Additional  requirements  = ;for=20  on-demand  streaming  would
>   >  complicate  the
>   >   >  system  a  lot.
>   >   >
>   >   >  -  In  on-demand=20  streaming  system,  you  have  functions=20  like
>   >  stop/start,
>   >   >  slow  motion,  fast=20  motion,  going  forward,  going  back,=20  repeat....
>   >   >  -  How  to  mange=20  the  following  situation:
>   >   >          .  = ;User=20  A  download  an  on-demand  stream  for &nbs= p;a=20  movie.
>   >   >          .  = ;User=20  B  download  this  move  via  User  A.<= /DIV>
>   >   >          .  = ;What=20  to  do  with  User  B,  if  User  = A=20  interrupt
>   >  presentation  or  skip
>   >   >  parts  of  the=20  movie?
>   >   >
>   >   >  So  you  see,  it=20  brings  a  lot  of  complexity  to  con= tent=20  server
>   >  and  peers.
>   >   >  Therefore  I  would=20  propose,  to  exclude  on-demand  streaming
>   >  from  initial
>   >   >  goals.  If  needed,  = ;this=20  could  be  added  later.
>   >   >
>   >   >  Regards
>   >   >  Christian
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >  From:  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]
>   >  On  Behalf
>   >   >  Of  ext  Xiao,  Lin =  (NSN  -  CN/Beijing)
>   >   >  Sent:  Wednesday,  August= =20  19,  2009  8:26  AM
>   >   >  To:  ext  zhangyunfei;=20  David  A.  Bryan;  Marshall  Eubanks
>   >   >  Cc:  ppsp@ietf.org
>   >   >  Subject:  Re:  [ppsp]=20  Fw:  Meaning  of  Chunk  for  PPSP
>   >   >
>   >   >  As  PPSP  is  focusi= ng=20  on  locating  required  chunks  from
>   >  different  peers,
>   >   >  there  is  no  much =  difference  between  P2P  live  streaming  a= nd=20  P2P
>   >   >  on-demand  streaming  in =  this  level.
>   >   >
>   >   >  Both  of  the  two=20  systems  need  find  and  download  chunks=20  to  fulfill  a
>   >   >  certain  time  range &nbs= p;and=20  then  another  in  order.The  player=20  reassembles
>   >   >  the  chunks  and  st= arts=20  to  play  once  the  first  time  range= =20  is  fully
>   >   >  downloaded.
>   >   >
>   >   >  The  main  differences,=20  I  think,  are  where  the  start  poin= t=20  of  the
>   >   >  downloading  is  and &nbs= p;how=20  long  a  time  range  is  for  play.=20  For  real  time
>   >   >  video  the  start  p= oint=20  of  the  downloading  is  related  to
>   >  current  time,
>   >   >  while  for  on-demand=20  system  it  always  from  the  beginning=20  of
>   >  the  movie
>   >   >  or  where  the  user= =20  want  it  to  start.  Moreover,  the  r= eal=20  time
>   >  system  may
>   >   >  be  more  sensitive  = ;to=20  the  length  of  a  time  range.=20  However,
>   >  these  could
>   >   >  be  configured  by=20  different  applications  themselves.
>   >   >
>   >   >  So,  I  think,  it=20  is  possible  to  design  a  common=20  PPSP
>   >  protocol  for  both
>   >   >  systems.  The  specific=20  requirements  for  real  time  streaming  co= uld=20  be
>   >   >  proposed  as  an=20  extension  of  PPSP  if  necessary.
>   >   >
>   >   >  BR
>   >   >  Lin  Xiao
>   >   >
>   >   >  From:  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]
>   >  On  Behalf
>   >   >  Of  ext  zhangyunfei
>   >   >  Sent:  Wednesday,  August= =20  19,  2009  12:21  PM
>   >   >  To:  David  A.  Brya= n;=20  Marshall  Eubanks
>   >   >  Cc:  ppsp@ietf.org
>   >   >  Subject:  Re:  [ppsp]=20  Fw:  Meaning  of  Chunk  for  PPSP
>   >   >
>   >   >  Yes,  I  agree  with= =20  David's  opinion.This  is  an  open=20  question.More
>   >   >  discussions  are  needed =  in  the  mailing  list.  Personally  I
>   >  think  in  the
>   >   >  signaling  level,  the=20  requirement  for  the  protocol  of  live=20  streaming
>   >   >  should  NATUALLY=20  back-compatible  meet  the  requirements  of
>   >  pre-recorded
>   >   >  streaming.Of  course  the= re=20  are  many  different  requirements
>   >  to  realize
>   >   >  the  whole  systems  = ;for=20  live  streaming  and  pre-  recorded=20  streaming.
>   >   >
>   >   >            = =20                  =20  Yunfei
>   >   >
>   >   >  zhangyunfei
>   >   >  2009-08-19
>   >   >  =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  Davi= d  A.=20  Bryan
>   >   >  =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA &nbs= p;2009-08-18=20  22:33:28
>   >   >  =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  Mars= hall  Eubanks
>   >   >  =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA  ppsp@ietf.= org
>   >   >  =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA  Re:  = [ppsp]  Fw:=20  Meaning  of  Chunk  for  PPSP
>   >   >
>   >   >  I    think    t= he=20    discussion    still    leads    = back=20    to    the    open
>   >   >  question    from  =20  the
>   >   >  Stockholm    meeting &nbs= p;=20  of    whether    we    are  =20  talking    about    live
>   >   >  streaming    or
>   >   >  getting    chunks   =  of    a    pre-recorded    video  = =20  file    (a
>   >  movie,    for
>   >   >  example).    At
>   >   >  the    end    o= f=20    the    meeting,    the    chairs= =20    noted    that    this    was
>   >   >  still    an  =20  open
>   >   >  question.
>   >   >
>   >   >  If    we    are= =20    getting    a    pre-recorded    = file,=20    then    one    grabs
>   >   >  chunks,
>   >   >  reassembles    locally, &= nbsp;=20  and    plays    --    the    = group=20    then    is
>   >   >  concerned    about
>   >   >  the    location  =20  of    peers    with    chunks,  =20  finding    the
>   >  appropriate
>   >   >  chunks,    and
>   >   >  possibly    the  =20  protocol    to    obtain    them,  = ;=20  but    the    real    time
>   >   >  issues
>   >   >  wouldn't    be  =20  covered    in    this    group.
>   >   >
>   >   >  If    it    is =    about    true    live    streami= ng,=20    then    in    addition    to
>   >   >  the    above,  =20  you
>   >   >  would    need   &nbs= p;to=20    discuss    the    real-time    i= ssues=20    that
>   >  folks    are
>   >   >  bringing    up
>   >   >  in    this  =20  thread.
>   >   >
>   >   >  It    would    = be=20    interesting    to    see    what= =20    people    think.    Which
>   >   >  problem    is
>   >   >  this    group  =20  looking    to    solve?
>   >   >
>   >   >  David
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >  On    Tue,    A= ug=20    18,    2009    at    5:55  = =20  AM,    Marshall    Eubanks
>   >   >   <tme@americafree.tv   &nbs= p;=20 >    wrote:
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >    On    = Aug=20    18,    2009,    at    5:17  = ;=20  AM,    Schmidt,    Christian    1.
>   >   >  (NSN    -  =20  DE/Munich)    wrote:
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    Hi &= nbsp;=20  Yunfei,
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    than= ks=20    for    forwarding    to    the &= nbsp;=20  list.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    With= =20    compressed    media,    I    tho= ught=20    about    MPEG2
>   >  and    MPEG4
>   >   >  (for    HDTV).
>   >   >   >   >    As &= nbsp;=20  far    as    I    know,    di= gial=20    broadcasting    uses
>   >  these    kind
>   >   >  of    compression   =  for
>   >   >   >   >  =20  broadcasting    to    reduce    needed =    bandwith.
>   >   >   >   >    What= =20    kind    of    codec    do  = =20  you    want    to    use    f= or=20    this
>   >   >  purpose?
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    If &= nbsp;=20  you    devide    one    media  =20  stream    into    4    chunks  =20  and    1
>   >   >  of    the    ch= unks=20    fails,
>   >   >   >   >    then= =20    this    would    cause    a &nbs= p;=20  severere    loss    of    quality,
>   >   >   >   >    beca= use=20    you    would    lose    a  = =20  lot    of    information    (every
>   >   >  4th    packet),  =20  not    only    a
>   >   >   >   >    few =    packets.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >    It  =20  sounds    that    it    would  =20  appropriate    in    this    case  = ;=20  to
>   >   >  use    something  =20  like    the
>   >   >   >    Scalable   =  Video    Coding    (SVC)    extension &= nbsp;=20  (also    known    as
>   >   >  Annex    G)    = of=20    the    H.264
>   >   >   >    video  =20  codec    now    in    common  =20  use    for    IPTV.    SVC
>   >  allows    for
>   >   >  degradation    rather
>   >   >   >    than  =20  complete    loss    of    quality  = ;=20  if    "chunks"    of    a  =20  stream
>   >   >  are    lost    = or=20    dropped.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >    Regards
>   >   >   >    Marshall
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >  =20  Regards
>   >   >   >   >    Chri= stian=20    Schmidt
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    From= :=20    ppsp-bounces@ietf.org  =20  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]
>   >   >  On    Behalf  =20  Of
>   >   >   >   >    ext =    zhangyunfei
>   >   >   >   >    Sent= :=20    Tuesday,    August    18,    200= 9=20    10:51    AM
>   >   >   >   >    To: =    ppsp@ietf.org
>   >   >   >   >    Subj= ect:=20    [ppsp]    Fw:    Meaning    of &= nbsp;=20  Chunk    for    PPSP
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    I &n= bsp;=20  am    not    sure    if  =20  Christian's    message    is    receive= d=20    in
>   >   >  the    mailing  =20  list.So
>   >   >   >   >    redi= rect=20    it.Some    replies    are  =20  inline.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >     &nb= sp;=20                      = ;=20                      = ;=20          Yunfei
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >  =20  zhangyunfei
>   >   >   >   >  =20  2009-08-18
>   >   >   >   >    =B7= =A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA=20    Schmidt,    Christian    1.    (= NSN=20    -    DE/Munich)
>   >   >   >   >    =B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA=20    2009-08-18    16:10:55
>   >   >   >   >    =CA= =D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA=20    ext    zhangyunfei
>   >   >   >   >    =B3= =AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20    ppsp-bounces@ietf.org
>   >   >   >   >    =D6= =F7=CC=E2=A3=BA=20    Meaning    of    Chunk    for &n= bsp;=20  PPSP
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    The =    meaning    of    a    chunk &nbs= p;=20  needs    further    clarification.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    Chun= k:=20    A    chunk    is    a  =20  basic    unit    of    partitioned
>   >   >  streaming,    which  = ;=20  is    used    for
>   >   >   >   >    the =    purpose    of    storage    and =    advertising    to    neighbors
>   >   >  what    parts   &nbs= p;of=20    a    movie    a
>   >   >   >   >    peer= =20    holds    [Sigcomm:P2P    streaming].
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    Am &= nbsp;=20  I    right,    that    one  =20  media    stream    is
>   >  subdivided    into
>   >   >  several    chunks?
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    Yes,= you=20    are    right.As    is    stated =    in    the    paper,streaming
>   >   >  is    partitioned   =  into
>   >   >   >   >    chun= ks=20    which    are    distributed    a= nd=20    stored    by    the
>   >   >  widespread    peers.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    Can =    you    describe,    how    the &= nbsp;=20  distribution    of    a
>   >  compressed
>   >   >  media    stream  =20  into
>   >   >   >   >    seve= ral=20    chunks    can    be  =20  achieved?
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    I &n= bsp;=20  am    not    quite    clear  =20  about    "compressed    media".When
>   >   >  does    it  =20  happen?How    to
>   >   >   >   >    play= =20    a    compressed    media    stre= am=20    in    the    player?Anyway
>   >   >  the    partition  =20  process
>   >   >   >   >    shou= ld=20    be    independent    of    the &= nbsp;=20  compression    process
>   >    as    I
>   >   >  understand.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    What= =20    happens,    if    one    of &nbs= p;=20  the    required    chunk    sources
>   >   >  drop    during   &nb= sp;a=20    PPSP
>   >   >   >   >    sess= ion?=20    Partial    or    complete    new= =20    chunk
>   >  discovery?    What
>   >   >  happens    to   &nbs= p;the=20    stream
>   >   >   >   >    in &= nbsp;=20  between?
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    In &= nbsp;=20  general    there    is    no  =20  need    of    new    chunk  =20  discovery
>   >   >  in    case    o= f=20    chunk    source
>   >   >   >   >    drop= =20    because    streaming    is  =20  tolerent    to    the    packet
>   >   >  drop.And    this  =20  is    the    reason
>   >   >   >   >    why =    most    P2P    streaming  =20  applications    use    UDP  =20  directly.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >    What= =20    do    you    mean    of  =20  the    last    question,Christian?You
>   >   >  mean    what  =20  happens    to
>   >   >   >   >    the =    playing    stream    in    case =    of    chunk    drop    or  = =20  what?
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >  =20  Regards
>   >   >   >   >    Chri= stian=20    Schmidt
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   >  =20  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
>   >   >   >   >    ppsp= =20    mailing    list
>   >   >   >   >  =20  ppsp@ietf.org
>   >   >   >   >  =20  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >  =20  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
>   >   >   >    ppsp  =20  mailing    list
>   >   >   >    ppsp@ietf.org
>   >   >   >  =20  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>   >   >   >
>   >   >=20  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
>   >   >  ppsp    mailing  =20  list
>   >   >  ppsp@ietf.org
>   >   >=20  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>   >
>   >=20  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
>   >  ppsp  mailing  list
>   >  ppsp@ietf.org
>   >  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>   >
>  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F
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