From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Sun Nov 1 18:02:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E807F3A685E for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2009 18:02:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.483, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IW7NTpbet1w6 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2009 18:02:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13A63A6810 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2009 18:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.4.43]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009110210082857-3465 ; Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:08:28 +0800 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:02:53 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Ning Zong" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <001601ca59c2$b7548ea0$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> Message-ID: <200911021002532197788@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-02 10:08:28, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-02 10:03:06, Serialize complete at 2009-11-02 10:03:06 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon601105321844_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] a reference for ppsp implementation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: 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Zz1FTi1VUyANCnN0eWxlPSJGT05ULUZBTUlMWTogVmVyZGFuYSI+PG86cD48L286cD48L1NQQU4+ PC9GT05UPjwvUD48L0RJVj48L0RJVj48L0ZPTlQ+PC9ESVY+PC9CT0RZPjwvSFRNTD4NCg== --=====003_Dragon601105321844_=====-- From ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Fri Nov 6 23:04:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B5C03A6839 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2009 23:04:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mHarTnFaq6ZZ for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2009 23:04:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-f183.google.com (mail-yw0-f183.google.com [209.85.211.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6250A3A67B4 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2009 23:04:32 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by 10.150.245.3 with SMTP id s3mr6318990ybh.237.1257577492878; Fri, 06 Nov 2009 23:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from windows8d787f9 (host-112-47.meeting.ietf.org [133.93.112.47]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 13sm382955gxk.5.2009.11.06.23.04.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 06 Nov 2009 23:04:51 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Gonzalo Camarillo'" , References: <4AE8A815.60409@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4AE8A815.60409@ericsson.com> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:03:52 +0200 Message-ID: <4af51c13.0d0bca0a.48af.1da0@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcpYDHBGgigpjMSWQrWH00JryXddhQHa94Aw Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [ppsp] Draft agenda for our meeting in Japan X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 07:04:33 -0000 Hi Gonzalo, I did not see the charter discussion in the agenda, is it first or last item? Regards Roni Even > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Gonzalo Camarillo > Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 10:23 PM > To: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] Draft agenda for our meeting in Japan > > Folks, > > I have just uploaded our draft agenda for Japan. > > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09nov/agenda/ppsp.html > > Cheers, > > Gonzalo > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com Fri Nov 6 23:22:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237963A6839 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2009 23:22:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.269 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.269 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9-YinUPkHxd4 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2009 23:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (mailgw4.ericsson.se [193.180.251.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E6C3A6781 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2009 23:22:34 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-b7bf6ae000005dda-68-4af52051e75e Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 38.7E.24026.15025FA4; Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:22:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.174]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:22:57 +0100 Received: from mail.lmf.ericsson.se ([131.160.11.50]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:22:57 +0100 Received: from [131.160.126.134] (rvi2-126-134.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.126.134]) by mail.lmf.ericsson.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 438AD24C0; Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:22:54 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <4AF5204C.1090504@ericsson.com> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 09:22:52 +0200 From: Gonzalo Camarillo User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roni Even References: <4AE8A815.60409@ericsson.com> <4af51c13.0d0bca0a.48af.1da0@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: <4af51c13.0d0bca0a.48af.1da0@mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Nov 2009 07:22:57.0467 (UTC) FILETIME=[211D60B0:01CA5F7B] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Draft agenda for our meeting in Japan X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 07:22:36 -0000 Hi Roni, it is the last item. We have called it "discussions" because we can discuss more things than just the charter. However, you are right that charter discussions should be taking a considerable portion of that slot. Thanks, Gonzalo Roni Even wrote: > Hi Gonzalo, > I did not see the charter discussion in the agenda, is it first or last > item? > Regards > Roni Even > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Gonzalo Camarillo >> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 10:23 PM >> To: ppsp@ietf.org >> Subject: [ppsp] Draft agenda for our meeting in Japan >> >> Folks, >> >> I have just uploaded our draft agenda for Japan. >> >> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09nov/agenda/ppsp.html >> >> Cheers, >> >> Gonzalo >> _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Sun Nov 8 20:08:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28C0528B797 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:08:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.603 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.603 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.570, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WnF+JQZ1nK00 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:08:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA593A6A5E for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:08:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009110912145563-8487 ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:14:55 +0800 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:08:41 +0900 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Softgear Ko" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <008101ca50c7$2b7e4550$827acff0$@re.kr> Message-ID: <200911091308395150803@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-09 12:14:56, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-09 12:08:56, Serialize complete at 2009-11-09 12:08:56 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon000062312014_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Draft for Introduction of Olive and Grid Delivery X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 04:08:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon000062312014_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" 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SMTPSVC; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 18:20:21 +0900 Priority: normal X-ReadCheckName: ppsp%40ietf.org Thread-Topic: Re: [ppsp] Draft for Introduction of Olive and Grid Delivery Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ReadCheckMessageID: <2af88316-b49e-43d3-9ccf-fd0766aca3d3@etri.re.kr> thread-index: AcphHdyaPhz2GkTjRLyiDzgAv+ofxA== From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?sO28rrCp?= To: "zhangyunfei" , Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 18:20:21 +0900 Comment: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?x9GxucD8wNrF673Fv6yxuL/4LCCxpMC2x9W8rbrxvbq/rA==?= =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?sbjGwCwgtOO05w==?= Message-ID: <6872A6DBFA0B4E428913E4590175ED72@etri.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_E5E6_01CA6169.4C847550" X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Exchange 2000 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Importance: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.3959 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Nov 2009 09:20:21.0872 (UTC) FILETIME=[DCBBC700:01CA611D] Subject: Re: [ppsp] Draft for Introduction of Olive and Grid 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multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon818766721111_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] =?utf-8?q?Draft_for_Introduction_of_Olive_and_Grid_Deliver?= =?utf-8?q?y?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:29:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon818766721111_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" SGksICANCiAgIFRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIHJlcGx5IGFzIHdlbGwgYXMgdGhlIGNvbnRyaWJ1dGlv biB0byBQUFNQIGNvbW11bml0eS4NCiAgICBTaW5jZSBQUFNQIGlzIGludGVuZGVkIHRvIGZyYW1l IGEgc2V0IG9mIHN0YW5kYXJkIHByb3RvY29sLCBndXlzIHdobyBoYXZlIGV4cGVyaWVuY2UgaW4g c3VjaCBwcm90b2NvbHMgYW5kIHByb2R1Y3RzIGFyZSBoaWdobHkgd2VsY29tZSBpbiBjb250cmli dXRpbmcgUFBTUCBwcm90b2NvbHMuDQogICBTbyBsZXQgbWUgY2xhcmlmeSBteSBxdWVzdGlvbjpJ 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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.321, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, MPART_ALT_DIFF=0.739, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WCD-M8CidpOj for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 04:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from email2.etri.info (email2.etri.re.kr [129.254.16.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35A33A686A for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 04:20:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by email2.etri.info with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:21:06 +0900 Priority: normal X-ReadCheckName: ppsp%40ietf.org Thread-Topic: Re: [ppsp] Draft for Introduction of Olive and Grid Delivery Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ReadCheckMessageID: <7fd31d31-e395-4bfe-9877-75b4d138ef11@etri.re.kr> thread-index: AcphNxxd3YcqTqSPSmydBA/tHFTqmA== From: "Ko, Seokkap" To: "zhangyunfei" , Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:21:06 +0900 Comment: ??, ???, Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_F91C_01CA6182.8C475BD0" X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Exchange 2000 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Importance: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.3959 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Nov 2009 12:21:06.0279 (UTC) FILETIME=[1C80F770:01CA6137] Subject: Re: [ppsp] Draft for Introduction of Olive and Grid Delivery X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Ko, Seokkap" List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:20:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_F91C_01CA6182.8C475BD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 ------=_NextPart_000_F91C_01CA6182.8C475BD0 Content-Type: text/html; 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USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T2kcemNJquRI for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 04:44:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F15113A672F for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 04:43:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009110920501708-20639 ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:50:17 +0800 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:44:00 +0900 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Ko, Seokkap" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <2B7E5B7126BF4525AD6EA7CAAC27DE25@etri.info> Message-ID: <200911092143577033978@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-09 20:50:22, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-09 20:44:25, Serialize complete at 2009-11-09 20:44:25 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon324588763355_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Draft for Introduction of Olive and Grid Delivery X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:44:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon324588763355_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" U291bmQgZ3JlYXQhDQpMZXQncyBkaXNjdXNzIG1vcmUgaW4gdGhlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdCBhYm91 dCB0aGUgcHJvdG9jb2xzIHNpbmNlIFBQU1AgY29tbXVuaXR5IGhhcyBiYXNpY2FsbHkgZGlzY3Vz c2VkIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIHRocm91Z2hseSBmb3IgYWJvdXQgMSB5ZWFyLiBBbmQgbm93IEkgdGhp bmsgaXQncyB0aW1lIHRoYXQgd2UgY2FuIHN0YXJ0IGRpc2N1c3MgdGhlIHByb3RvY29sIHJlcXVp 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YWlsPXNvZnRnZWFyQGV0cmkucmUua3ImYW1wO21lc3NhZ2VpZD0lM0M3ZmQzMWQzMS1lMzk1LTRi ZmUtOTg3Ny03NWI0ZDEzOGVmMTFAZXRyaS5yZS5rciUzRSIgDQp3aWR0aD0wPiA8L0ZPTlQ+PC9E SVY+PC9CT0RZPjwvSFRNTD4NCg== --=====003_Dragon324588763355_=====-- From albertojgc@gmail.com Mon Nov 9 04:55:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D005D3A6AF6 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 04:55:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.809 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.809 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IJRd5Gvgmq+B for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 04:55:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f215.google.com (mail-fx0-f215.google.com [209.85.220.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FEFA3A6A0D for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 04:55:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm7 with SMTP id 7so988535fxm.29 for ; Mon, 09 Nov 2009 04:55:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=yut27fOpfTeSB6l7qxMVMZ0gvCOvntgPK6oGmBvrUmE=; b=TDSN3mOifRbcXHvoGlFoqmC77jIDjgdi2UtLNilLUPV0InqDl/1OkIkUTWvEAPmmJy mjI7glHRy7rNZ11k9nKDVL7BqjWLdIjiM+/4eimAURaBhFNkMepfn8CTBkvWxWYBy1+M WqvcX+mBjiACdfB/kqWvuXgFr58hhcjBDoBU4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=qhyI7IkargkQzcpPppp4Tcv+6fVrt7s+rzUgR6JXCDx4FdVF285deTt0ak+jTDY1pw lI4+tftPfF0gjXgZ5vpRdrqSRrkO5c5gHumaHD18xeiFTr7C7AndYQzRJqPu41xiW+eE zG3Le9Ot/ymSDPgHCeXST6b730cLaX7iWQNVQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.155.80 with SMTP id r16mr3633972bkw.133.1257771355868; Mon, 09 Nov 2009 04:55:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:55:55 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: ppsp@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cd7ece0103d0477efb6bf Subject: [ppsp] CoolRuc and PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:55:34 -0000 --0015175cd7ece0103d0477efb6bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I would like to inform you about a project I was involved which has relatio= n to your work within PPSP WG. The project was named TRILOGY (developed at th= e I2CAT Foundation [http://www.i2cat.net/en/projecte/trilogy-1]). Here, we developed a P2P Live Streaming Application called CoolRuc. In short, CoolRuc is able to distribute prerecorded (from a file) or live (from a video camera) video contents (CIF, SD, HD,=85) in a distributed manner. CoolRuc takes advantage of video source coding techniques (MDC and SVC) for providing scalable and robust transmission. Moreover, these techniques allow to operate in heterogeneous and dynamic environments where different types of access networks and end-devices can be found. CoolRuc is mesh-pull-based at distribution level. Concretely, CoolRuc was focused in the following issues: - Media Coding in heterogeneous P2P environments - Content management in P2P - Content Adaptation in P2P - Transport plane improvements According to our experience, I think that we can contribute to PPSP standardization process in some points, for instance: definition of requirements, PPSP tracker protocol communication, PPSP Peer Protocol, etc. In this sense, I have provided some slides describing our work with CoolRuc (highlighting CoolRuc and PPSP common points) to Yunfei and Victor which I hope that will be useful for the next PPSP BOF meeting. BR, --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation MSc, Research Engineer --0015175cd7ece0103d0477efb6bf Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi a= ll,

I would like to inform you about a project I w= as involved which has relation to your work within PPSP WG. The project was= named TRILOGY (developed at the I2CAT Foundation=A0[http://www.i2cat.net/en/projecte/trilogy-= 1]). Here, we developed a=A0P2P Live Streaming Application called CoolR= uc.=A0

In short, CoolRuc is able to distribute prerecorded (fro= m a file) or live (from a video camera) video contents (CIF, SD, HD,=85) in a distributed manner. CoolRuc takes advantage of video source co= ding techniques (MDC and SVC) for providing scalable and robust transmission.=A0 Moreover, these techniques allow to operate in heterogeneous and dynamic en= vironments where different types of access networks and end-devices can be = found. CoolRuc is mesh-pull-based at distribution level.

<= /div>
Concretely, CoolRuc was focused in the following issues:

- Media Coding in heterogeneous P2P environments<= /div>
- Content management in P2P
- Content Adaptation in P2P
- Transport plane improvements=A0

According to our experienc= e, I think that we can contribute to PPSP standardization process in some p= oints, for instance: definition of requirements, PPSP tracker protocol comm= unication, PPSP Peer Protocol, etc.

In this sense, I have prov= ided some slides describing our work with CoolRuc (highlighting CoolRuc and= PPSP common points) to Yunfei and Victor which I hope that will be useful = for the next PPSP BOF meeting.

BR,

--=A0

Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela
Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation
MSc,
Research Engineer
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X-Spam-Score: -98.846 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.846 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.894, BAYES_20=-0.74, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p2zr1IG3Gi1m for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 05:17:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B966A3A6860 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 05:17:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KSU0055DFMEPQ@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:18:14 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.3]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KSU006CBFME64@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:18:14 +0800 (CST) Received: from z-20684ca876cc4 (host-128-32.meeting.ietf.org [133.93.128.32]) by szxml01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KSU0076HFMD7U@szxml01-in.huawei.com>; Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:18:14 +0800 (CST) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:18:14 +0900 From: Ning Zong To: softgear , albertojgc , ppsp Message-id: <0KSU0076IFMD7U@szxml01-in.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Foxmail 5.0 [en] Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: [ppsp] PPSP survey X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:17:51 -0000 Hi, Softgear, Alberto and all, Thank you for providing so many useful examples of P2P streaming implementations/projects. I would also include them into the survey slides as much I can. BR, Ning Zong From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Nov 9 05:32:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C9303A6981 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 05:32:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.407 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.407 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.166, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xM14xaXirWOM for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 05:32:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A0C3A69EA for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 05:32:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009110921385860-20967 ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:38:58 +0800 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 22:32:39 +0900 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Ning Zong" , "softgear" , "albertojgc" , "ppsp" References: <0KSU0076IFMD7U@szxml01-in.huawei.com> Message-ID: <200911092232366400698@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-09 21:39:00, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-09 21:32:57, Serialize complete at 2009-11-09 21:32:57 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon827807335216_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP survey X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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05:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E453A6973 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 05:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009110921555882-21078 ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:55:58 +0800 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 22:49:41 +0900 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "=?gb2312?B?QWxiZXJ0b19Kb3PpX0dvbnrhbGV6X0NlbGE=?=" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: Message-ID: <200911092249385780981@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-09 21:56:00, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-09 21:49:55, Serialize complete at 2009-11-09 21:49:55 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon258076524328_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] CoolRuc and 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LCBzYW5zLXNlcmlmIj5BbGJlcnRvIA0KSm9zZSBHb256YWxleiBDZWxhPC9GT05UPjxCUj5Vbml2 ZXJzaXRhdCBQb2xpdGVjbmljYSBkZSBDYXRhbHVueWEgLyBpMkNBVCANCkZvdW5kYXRpb24gPC9E SVY+DQo8RElWPk1TYyw8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+UmVzZWFyY2ggRW5naW5lZXI8L0RJVj48L0ZPTlQ+ PC9ESVY+PC9CT0RZPjwvSFRNTD4NCg== --=====003_Dragon258076524328_=====-- From victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com Mon Nov 9 16:26:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53AE53A67FA for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 16:26:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QlQxHjFnK54n for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 16:26:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f215.google.com (mail-fx0-f215.google.com [209.85.220.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DEAE3A63EB for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 16:26:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm7 with SMTP id 7so1448844fxm.29 for ; Mon, 09 Nov 2009 16:26:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+IRk8+G3BNZtOvZCH3JWTETSDke86u3Q5dOTE8BcBAc=; b=FdyUtW+QqIhTokgZuudaFrx4NAJb0CdPrWOAubbM8H/jRJi1z8Y4c1lwC4xIqBEuRz /fgm700tgu+hmCKwZbXCA9R7zqu1skE9lyX4xwD/K6f6VFtSbOmc8+Zx/vIR+cKer4D8 1HiB7Et6O1GAhu4b8dU1MKyGGVIU9lxLXK44k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dsZP2mIdVqcYmiqlnlAiFLef63h28Fk0fWWbag+zp0HSYs6nUx4UCJ1845KMV1KlTO 5Ne4Iid50dDuBHpnpGl4YYiqTbxOmq0Mz2/6M/fGYZuezEsEk3lQUdjnZ8vkgAsoRydr kn1a7IIF+FoMbki6Am61LU7DDy3E15s0o6h3Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.155.90 with SMTP id r26mr5444100bkw.81.1257812803731; Mon, 09 Nov 2009 16:26:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4AE8A815.60409@ericsson.com> References: <4AE8A815.60409@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:26:43 +0100 Message-ID: <618e24240911091626j4689ae2ds736cb2c644e75f48@mail.gmail.com> From: Victor Pascual Avila To: Gonzalo Camarillo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Draft agenda for our meeting in Japan X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:26:21 -0000 On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Gonzalo Camarillo wrote: > I have just uploaded our draft agenda for Japan. > > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09nov/agenda/ppsp.html Minutes from previous meetings: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/current/msg00262.html Cheers, --=20 Victor Pascual =C3=81vila From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Nov 9 20:14:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C3C33A68E3 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:14:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.673, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HqE2X5lr07aU for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CE23A6841 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:14:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009111012211193-7288 ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:21:11 +0800 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:14:52 +0900 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-ID: <200911101314507501986@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-10 12:21:16, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-10 12:15:12 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon248562115780_=====" Subject: [ppsp] charter discussion X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: 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charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,
   The following is the = latest=20 verion of the charter, which is one of the most important documents we need= to=20 discuss in the BOF. Suggestions and comments are highly=20 appreciated.
 
BR
Yunfei
------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------

Apr 2010

Working Group Last Call for problem=20 statement

Jun 2010

Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational=20 document

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for architecture=20 survey

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for=20 requirements

Oct

2010

Submit architecture survey to IESG as Informational=20 document

Oct 2010

Submit requirements to IESG as Informational=20 document

Apr 2011

Working Group Last Call for PPSP peer=20 protocol

Apr

2011

Working Group Last Call for PPSP tracker=20 protocol

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of usage=20 document

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of mobility BCP=20 document

Jan 2012

Submit usage document to IESG as Informational=20 document

Jan 2012

Submit mobility BCP document to IESG as Informational=20 document

Apr 2012

Dissolve or re-charter=20

zhangyunfei
2009-11-10
--=====003_Dragon248562115780_=====-- From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Mon Nov 9 21:04:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5A783A6905 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:04:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.299, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HChGQX1auWOw for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F06D3A67CF for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:04:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id nAA54sqQ028219 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:04:54 +0100 Received: from demuexc023.nsn-intra.net (demuexc023.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.36]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id nAA54si5013947; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:04:54 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc023.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:04:54 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA61C3.56F9FF72" Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:04:50 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200911101314507501986@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] charter discussion Thread-Index: AcphvHeELnGm7SAEQUefeT0FIqZeAAABlCMA References: <200911101314507501986@chinamobile.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext zhangyunfei" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Nov 2009 05:04:54.0435 (UTC) FILETIME=[57483F30:01CA61C3] Subject: Re: [ppsp] charter discussion X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 05:04:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA61C3.56F9FF72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yunfei, I like the text, nevertheless I would like to make the following text proposal and 2 questions for clarifications. =20 Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 =20 Proposed new text for more transparency in main description: Old text: The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP WG) is chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols) for multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, caches, content distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) to participate in P2P streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet. PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol - a signaling protocol between "PPSP trackers" and "PPSP peers", and the PPSP peer protocol - a signaling protocol among "PPSP peers". A PPSP tracker maintains lists of participating PPSP peers, each for a specific channel or streaming file, and answers the queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers inform their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk availability with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for wanted data.=20 =20 New text: The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP WG) is chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols) for P2P streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet. Participating entities could be intelligent endpoints, caches, content distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices. =20 For a specific channel or streaming file, a PPSP tracker maintains lists of particiating PPSP peers. The PPSP tracker answers queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers provide their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk availability with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for wanted data. PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol - a signaling protocol between "PPSP trackers" and "PPSP peers", and the PPSP peer protocol - a signaling protocol among "PPSP peers".=20 =20 Architectural survey 3. An "architectural survey" document explaining the current P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming, and key issues in best practice. It is good to have a description of the current P2P streaming architecture. What is missing is the relation to the PPSP work. Will it contain a proposal for the PPSP architecture? =20 Usage document 6. A "usage document" explaining how the protocols defined above, along with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can inter-operate; and how they may be integrated together to produce complete P2P streaming systems. This sounds more like a "interop document". Was this the intention? ________________________________ Von: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von ext zhangyunfei Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. November 2009 13:15 An: ppsp@ietf.org Betreff: [ppsp] charter discussion Dear all, The following is the latest verion of the charter, which is one of the most important documents we need to discuss in the BOF. Suggestions and comments are highly appreciated. =20 BR Yunfei ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ Description of PPSP Working Group: The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP WG) is chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols) for multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, caches, content distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) to participate in P2P streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet. PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol - a signaling protocol between "PPSP trackers" and "PPSP peers", and the PPSP peer protocol - a signaling protocol among "PPSP peers". A PPSP tracker maintains lists of participating PPSP peers, each for a specific channel or streaming file, and answers the queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers inform their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk availability with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for wanted data.=20 =20 This WG's primary tasks are to produce: 1. A "problem statement" document describing the problems, incentives, and scope of developing the PPSP protocols, as well as common terminologies and concepts. =20 2. A "requirements" document listing the requirements on the designed PPSP protocols (e.g., general functionality and performance requirements of PPSP protocols or basic types of information that PPSP protocols should communicate to facilitate P2P streaming). 3. An "architectural survey" document explaining the current P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming, and key issues in best practice. 4. A proposed standard defining the PPSP peer protocol. This protocol will define how PPSP peers advertise chunk availability. The protocol will also define the requests and responses of chunks among PPSP peers. =20 5. A proposed standard defining the PPSP tracker protocol. This protocol will define how PPSP peers inform and request information from PPSP trackers and how PPSP trackers reply to the requests. =20 6. A "usage document" explaining how the protocols defined above, along with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can inter-operate; and how they may be integrated together to produce complete P2P streaming systems. =20 7. Optionally a "mobile usage document" (PPSP mobile BCP document) to evaluate PPSP with and without Mobile IP support when there are a lot of mobile peers in the system. The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO, MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and present to the respective working groups. The design of PPSP has to consider security/privacy issues. The protocol document will contain a complete description of the security/privacy issues that PPSP should address. =20 The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. 2. Network coding mechanisms in P2P streaming. Network coding may be used in P2P streaming, but its support is beyond the scope of current charter. =20 3. Play-out mechanisms including streaming control (e.g., pause, fast-forward, and rewind). =20 4. Algorithms that may be different in different deployments (e.g., chunk selection, local storage strategies). =20 5. Research type questions related to P2P streaming. This WG will instead forward such questions to the IRTF P2PRG or other RG as appropriate. Examples include cache management. Goals and Milestones: Apr 2010 Working Group Last Call for problem statement Jun 2010 Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational document Aug 2010 Working Group Last Call for architecture survey Aug 2010 Working Group Last Call for requirements Oct=20 2010 Submit architecture survey to IESG as Informational document Oct 2010 Submit requirements to IESG as Informational document Apr 2011 Working Group Last Call for PPSP peer protocol Apr 2011 Working Group Last Call for PPSP tracker protocol Aug 2011 Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Aug 2011 Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Nov 2011 Working Group Last Call of usage document Nov 2011 Working Group Last Call of mobility BCP document Jan 2012 Submit usage document to IESG as Informational document Jan 2012 Submit mobility BCP document to IESG as Informational document Apr 2012 Dissolve or re-charter=20 =20 =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2009-11-10 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA61C3.56F9FF72 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Yunfei,
I like the text, nevertheless = I would like=20 to make the following text proposal and 2 questions for=20 clarifications.
 
Best Regards
Christian Schmidt
 
 
Proposed new text for more transparency = in main=20 description:

Old text:

The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group = (PPSP WG)=20 is chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP = protocols) for=20 multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, caches, content=20 distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) to participate in = P2P=20 streaming systems in both fixed and mobile=20 Internet.


PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol – = a signaling=20 protocol between “PPSP trackers” and “PPSP = peers”, and the PPSP peer protocol –=20 a signaling protocol among “PPSP peers”. A PPSP tracker = maintains lists of=20 participating PPSP peers, each for a specific channel or streaming file, = and=20 answers the queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers = inform=20 their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk = availability=20 with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for = wanted=20 data.

 

New text:

The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) = Streaming Protocol=20 working group (PPSP WG) is chartered to develop standard signaling = protocols=20 (called PPSP protocols) for = P2P=20 streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet. Participating entities could be = intelligent=20 endpoints, caches, content distribution network nodes, and/or other edge = devices.

 
For a=20 specific channel or streaming file, a PPSP tracker maintains lists of=20 particiating PPSP peers. The PPSP tracker answers queries from PPSP = peers for=20 candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers provide their status information = to PPSP=20 trackers, exchange their chunk availability with other PPSP peers and/or = PPSP=20 trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for wanted data. PPSP protocols = include the=20 PPSP tracker protocol – a signaling protocol between “PPSP = trackers” and “PPSP=20 peers”, and the PPSP peer protocol – a signaling protocol = among “PPSP=20 peers”.=20
 
Architectural survey
3. An "architectural survey" document = explaining the=20 current P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P = streaming,=20 and key issues in best practice.
It is good to have a description of the = current P2P=20 streaming architecture. What is missing is the relation to the PPSP = work. Will=20 it contain a proposal for the PPSP = architecture?
 
Usage document
6. A “usage document” explaining how the = protocols defined above,=20 along with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can=20 inter-operate; and how they may be integrated together to produce = complete P2P=20 streaming systems.
This sounds more like a "interop document". = Was this=20 the intention?

Von: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von ext=20 zhangyunfei
Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. November 2009 = 13:15
An:=20 ppsp@ietf.org
Betreff: [ppsp] charter = discussion

Dear all,
   The following is = the latest=20 verion of the charter, which is one of the most important documents we = need to=20 discuss in the BOF. Suggestions and comments are highly=20 appreciated.
 
BR
Yunfei
----------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------

Description of PPSP Working = Group:

The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP = WG) is=20 chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP = protocols) for=20 multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, caches, content=20 distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) to participate in = P2P=20 streaming systems in both fixed and mobile=20 Internet.


PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol – a = signaling protocol=20 between “PPSP trackers” and “PPSP peers”, and = the PPSP peer protocol – a=20 signaling protocol among “PPSP peers”. A PPSP tracker = maintains lists of=20 participating PPSP peers, each for a specific channel or streaming file, = and=20 answers the queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers = inform=20 their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk = availability=20 with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for = wanted=20 data.

 

This WG's primary tasks are to produce:
1. A “problem = statement”=20 document describing the problems, incentives, and scope of developing = the PPSP=20 protocols, as well as common terminologies and=20 concepts.

 

2. A “requirements” document listing the = requirements on the designed=20 PPSP protocols (e.g., general functionality and performance requirements = of PPSP=20 protocols or basic types of information that PPSP protocols should = communicate=20 to facilitate P2P streaming).


3. An "architectural survey" document explaining the current = P2P=20 streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming, and = key=20 issues in best practice.


4. A proposed standard defining the PPSP peer protocol. This = protocol=20 will define how PPSP peers advertise chunk availability. The protocol = will also=20 define the requests and responses of chunks among PPSP=20 peers.

 

5. A=20 proposed standard defining the PPSP tracker protocol. This protocol will = define=20 how PPSP peers inform and request information from PPSP trackers and how = PPSP=20 trackers reply to the requests.

 

6. A “usage document” explaining how the protocols = defined above, along=20 with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can = inter-operate;=20 and how they may be integrated together to produce complete P2P = streaming=20 systems.

 

7. Optionally a ”mobile usage document” (PPSP = mobile BCP document) to=20 evaluate PPSP with and without Mobile IP support when there are a lot of = mobile=20 peers in the system.


The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires = close=20 participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO = and=20 MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, = and=20 MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO, = MMUSIC are=20 needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and present to the = respective=20 working groups.


The design of PPSP has to consider security/privacy issues. The = protocol=20 document will contain a complete description of the security/privacy = issues that=20 PPSP should address.

 

The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope:
1. = Transport=20 mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. using TCP or = UDP,=20 unicast or multicast, etc.


2. Network coding mechanisms in P2P streaming. Network coding = may be used=20 in P2P streaming, but its support is beyond the scope of current=20 charter.

 

3. Play-out mechanisms including streaming control (e.g., = pause,=20 fast-forward, and rewind).

 

4. Algorithms that may be different in different deployments = (e.g., chunk=20 selection, local storage strategies).

 

5. Research type questions related to P2P streaming. This WG = will instead=20 forward such questions to the IRTF P2PRG or other RG as appropriate. = Examples=20 include cache management.

Goals and Milestones:

Apr 2010

Working Group Last Call for problem=20 statement

Jun 2010

Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational=20 document

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for architecture=20 survey

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for=20 requirements

Oct

2010

Submit architecture survey to IESG as Informational=20 document

Oct 2010

Submit requirements to IESG as Informational=20 document

Apr 2011

Working Group Last Call for PPSP peer=20 protocol

Apr

2011

Working Group Last Call for PPSP tracker=20 protocol

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of usage=20 document

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of mobility BCP=20 document

Jan 2012

Submit usage document to IESG as Informational=20 document

Jan 2012

Submit mobility BCP document to IESG as Informational=20 document

Apr 2012

Dissolve or re-charter=20

 

 
zhangyunfei
2009-11-10
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Acph1PcW/lp/AqmYSgKPuw8V6xjh7w== Thread-Topic: [ppsp] charter discussion From: "Ko, Seokkap" To: Cc: Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:11:03 +0900 Comment: ??, ???, Message-ID: <1916DF0F2AE94C4C90BD5D8C0C63E222@etri.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_9367_01CA6220.67011480" X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Exchange 2000 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Importance: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.3959 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Nov 2009 07:11:04.0211 (UTC) FILETIME=[F7386630:01CA61D4] Subject: Re: [ppsp] charter discussion X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Ko, Seokkap" List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:10:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_9367_01CA6220.67011480 Content-Type: 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(Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B2F3A6A70 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:11:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.879 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.879 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.272, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I+3HoXvVM9Eh for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:11:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from email2.etri.info (email2.etri.re.kr [129.254.16.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247743A6A6F for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:11:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from softgearvaio ([129.254.1.8]) by email2.etri.info with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:12:16 +0900 From: "SoftgearKo" To: References: <16BA447B6E93451BAE20F947B4833E30@etri.info> In-Reply-To: <16BA447B6E93451BAE20F947B4833E30@etri.info> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:12:14 +0900 Message-ID: <000001ca61e5$e543c7b0$afcb5710$@re.kr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcphyX/6M08ISDyKSW6miLmdhiH9bQAHAFDQ Content-Language: ko X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Nov 2009 09:12:16.0460 (UTC) FILETIME=[E5D188C0:01CA61E5] Subject: Re: [ppsp] comment about PPSP requirement X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:11:51 -0000 Hi, Oops. PPSP.TP.REQ-6 carry the configuration and the status of the peer = was already in PPSP.TP.REQ-4. Sorry for confusing. However, I think the = virtual/physical location of the peer should be carried between the = tracker and peers=20 - Softgear Ko -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Ko, Seokkap Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:49 PM To: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] comment about PPSP requirement Hello. =20 To consider proximity between peer or to select better peer list in the = swarm, peer provides additional information than just IP address. For = example, network coordination. The current PPSP requirement = (draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02) doesn't mention about this. Of course, map = from IP address to network coordination is possible. but, providing its = network coordinate to tracker or peers is better and faster. For = generality, I don't say just network coordinate information. It also = includes bandwidth, capacity, constraints, and so on. These additional = information helps the tracker to give better initial peer to new peer. = And, it can be for peer selection. =20 PPSP.TP.REQ-6: PPSP tracker protocol MAY be able to carry the = configuration and the status of the peer, e.g. work load, capacity, = bandwidth limitation, virtual/physical location etc. A peer MAY report = its status to the tracker. =20 PPSP.PP.REQ-4: PPSP peer protocol MAY carry the virtual/physical = location of the peer. It could be used to select better peers. =20 - Softgear Ko From zongning@huawei.com Tue Nov 10 05:17:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7591F3A672F for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 05:17:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.671 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.671 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.825, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lR9BhQ-X2Xyn for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 05:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F0028C192 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 05:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KSW00IPL9X1AU@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:10:13 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.3]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KSW005GE9X1KL@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:10:13 +0800 (CST) Received: from z-20684ca876cc4 (host-128-32.meeting.ietf.org [133.93.128.32]) by szxml01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KSW006999X0R3@szxml01-in.huawei.com>; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:10:13 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:10:16 +0900 From: Ning Zong To: SoftgearKo , "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-id: <0KSW0069A9X1R3@szxml01-in.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Foxmail 5.0 [en] Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [ppsp] comment about PPSP requirement X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:17:17 -0000 Hi, Softgear, I would say that PPSP tracker may use ALTO protocol to get the network preference for selecting peers. PPSP tracker protocol itself just return the better-than-random peer list. BR, Ning Zong ======= At 2009-11-10, 18:12:14 you wrote: ======= >Hi, > >Oops. PPSP.TP.REQ-6 carry the configuration and the status of the peer was already in PPSP.TP.REQ-4. Sorry for confusing. However, I think the virtual/physical location of the peer should be carried between the tracker and peers > >- Softgear Ko > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ko, Seokkap >Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:49 PM >To: ppsp@ietf.org >Subject: [ppsp] comment about PPSP requirement > >Hello. > >To consider proximity between peer or to select better peer list in the swarm, peer provides additional information than just IP address. For example, network coordination. The current PPSP requirement (draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02) doesn't mention about this. Of course, map from IP address to network coordination is possible. but, providing its network coordinate to tracker or peers is better and faster. For generality, I don't say just network coordinate information. It also includes bandwidth, capacity, constraints, and so on. These additional information helps the tracker to give better initial peer to new peer. And, it can be for peer selection. > >PPSP.TP.REQ-6: PPSP tracker protocol MAY be able to carry the configuration and the status of the peer, e.g. work load, capacity, bandwidth limitation, virtual/physical location etc. A peer MAY report its status to the tracker. > >PPSP.PP.REQ-4: PPSP peer protocol MAY carry the virtual/physical location of the peer. It could be used to select better peers. > >- Softgear Ko > > > >_______________________________________________ >ppsp mailing list >ppsp@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Ning Zong zongning@huawei.com 2009-11-10 From softgear@etri.re.kr Tue Nov 10 06:19:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9028F3A6AC6 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:19:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.041 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.041 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.110, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YQ2FYPqVuQeG for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:19:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from email2.etri.info (email2.etri.re.kr [129.254.16.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ECB83A6973 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:19:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from softgearvaio ([129.254.1.8]) by email2.etri.info with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:20:22 +0900 From: "SoftgearKo" To: "'Ning Zong'" , References: <0KSW0069A9X1R3@szxml01-in.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <0KSW0069A9X1R3@szxml01-in.huawei.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:20:16 +0900 Message-ID: <002101ca6210$efceb2a0$cf6c17e0$@re.kr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcpiCCrAHIgaL4HpTaubdO5/eek83QABKM3Q Content-Language: ko X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Nov 2009 14:20:22.0808 (UTC) FILETIME=[F08A6180:01CA6210] Subject: Re: [ppsp] comment about PPSP requirement X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:19:57 -0000 Hi, Ning Zong. Yes, PPSP tracker may use ALTO protocol and we consider it. However, I don't think that all PPSP tracker can use ALTO protocol. It depends on running environment. Some PPSP tracker might not use ALTO protocol, i.e. world-wide tracker or ISP independent tracker. Also, some PPSP tracker and peers may use network coordinate likes Vivaldi. I suggest that the status of peer in PPSP.TP.REQ-4 includes network coordinates and physical location. Does ALTO consider peer selection between peers (not between a peer and a tracker)? According to my knowledge, The answer is No. However, we can use additional information about topology or location for peer selection. By the way, we have to define some terminology about peer selection. Anybody suggest better terminologies for these? - initial peer selection : tracker selects peer list for new peer. - chunk selection : one peer selects a chunk to download from other peer. This selection strategy is different from file sharing. It has the time constraint. - download peer selection : If there are many peer which have a certain chunk, the peer select one peer among that peers. - neighbor selection : If a peer get too many peer list from other peers or the tracker, the peer should dismiss some peers from its neighbor peer list. Thank you. - Softgear Ko -----Original Message----- From: Ning Zong [mailto:zongning@huawei.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:10 PM To: SoftgearKo; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: Re: [ppsp] comment about PPSP requirement Hi, Softgear, I would say that PPSP tracker may use ALTO protocol to get the network preference for selecting peers. PPSP tracker protocol itself just return the better-than-random peer list. BR, Ning Zong ======= At 2009-11-10, 18:12:14 you wrote: ======= >Hi, > >Oops. PPSP.TP.REQ-6 carry the configuration and the status of the peer was already in PPSP.TP.REQ-4. Sorry for confusing. However, I think the virtual/physical location of the peer should be carried between the tracker and peers > >- Softgear Ko > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- >From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ko, Seokkap >Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:49 PM >To: ppsp@ietf.org >Subject: [ppsp] comment about PPSP requirement > >Hello. > >To consider proximity between peer or to select better peer list in the swarm, peer provides additional information than just IP address. For example, network coordination. The current PPSP requirement (draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02) doesn't mention about this. Of course, map from IP address to network coordination is possible. but, providing its network coordinate to tracker or peers is better and faster. For generality, I don't say just network coordinate information. It also includes bandwidth, capacity, constraints, and so on. These additional information helps the tracker to give better initial peer to new peer. And, it can be for peer selection. > >PPSP.TP.REQ-6: PPSP tracker protocol MAY be able to carry the configuration and the status of the peer, e.g. work load, capacity, bandwidth limitation, virtual/physical location etc. A peer MAY report its status to the tracker. > >PPSP.PP.REQ-4: PPSP peer protocol MAY carry the virtual/physical location of the peer. It could be used to select better peers. > >- Softgear Ko > > > >_______________________________________________ >ppsp mailing list >ppsp@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Ning Zong zongning@huawei.com 2009-11-10 From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Tue Nov 10 06:42:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D38228C131 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:42:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.174 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.174 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.799, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_62=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MEUW+Fz9bmy8 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:42:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 487C73A6AF5 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009111022490709-19270 ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:49:07 +0800 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:42:43 +0900 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <200911101314507501986@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <200911102342404067140@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-10 22:49:18, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-10 22:43:15 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon362151138684_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] charter discussion X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:42:51 -0000 --=====003_Dragon362151138684_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgQ2hyaXN0aWFuLA0KICAgVGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbi5QbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGlu 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Hi Christian,
   Thanks for = the=20 suggestion.Please see inline for the reply.
 
BR
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei=
2009-11-10
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1.=20 (NSN - DE/Munich)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= =A3=BA=20 2009-11-10 14:11:23
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei;=20 ppsp@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA AW: [ppsp] charter=20 discussion
 
Hi Yunfei,
I like the text, nevertheless I w= ould like=20 to make the following text proposal and 2 questions for=20 clarifications.
 
Best Regards
Christian Schmidt
 
 
Proposed new text for more transparency in = main=20 description:

 

Architectural survey
3. An "architectural survey" document explaining= the=20 current P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P stream= ing,=20 and key issues in best practice.
It is good to have a description of the current = P2P=20 streaming architecture. What is missing is the relation to the PPSP work. W= ill=20 it contain a proposal for the PPSP architecture?
Good suggestion.We may contain a proposal for th= e PPSP=20 architecture(although which is almostly included in the survey)in the end o= f the=20 architectural survey draft.
 
Usage document
This sounds more like a "interop document". Was = this=20 the intention?
Actually we want to give the readers a whole pic= ture of=20 how a p2p streaming system will be constructed with the exisiting and PPSP = protocols.It just wants to fill in these protcols to all the component= s in=20 the architecture figure we proposed in last bar=20 bof.

Von: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von ext=20 zhangyunfei
Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. November 2009 13:15
An:= =20 ppsp@ietf.org
Betreff: [ppsp] charter discussion

Dear all,
   The following is the = latest=20 verion of the charter, which is one of the most important documents we need= to=20 discuss in the BOF. Suggestions and comments are highly=20 appreciated.
 
BR
Yunfei
------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------

<= /B>

Apr 2010

Working Group Last Call for problem=20 statement

Jun 2010

Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational=20 document

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for architecture=20 survey

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for=20 requirements

Oct

2010

Submit architecture survey to IESG as Informational=20 document

Oct 2010

Submit requirements to IESG as Informational=20 document

Apr 2011

Working Group Last Call for PPSP peer=20 protocol

Apr

2011

Working Group Last Call for PPSP tracker=20 protocol

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of usage=20 document

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of mobility BCP=20 document

Jan 2012

Submit usage document to IESG as Informational=20 document

Jan 2012

Submit mobility BCP document to IESG as Informational=20 document

Apr 2012

Dissolve or re-charter=20

zhangyunfei
2009-11-10
--=====003_Dragon362151138684_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Tue Nov 10 06:47:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA2628C1C8 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:47:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.789 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.789 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.384, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fx30hJ1nTfKi for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:47:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF5628C18E for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009111022541543-19315 ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:54:15 +0800 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:47:51 +0900 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Ko, Seokkap" , "Schmidt, Christian 1. \(NSN - DE" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <200911101314507501986@chinamobile.com> <80F37E1857964C7FA8810B41CF98A07D@etri.info> Message-ID: <200911102347482509273@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-10 22:54:23, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-10 22:48:11 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon051022314332_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] charter discussion X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , 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Hi Soek-kap,
   Thanks for = the=20 comments.Please see inline for the reply.
 
zhangyunfei=
2009-11-10
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Ko,=20 Seokkap
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= =A3=BA=20 2009-11-10 16:12:04
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1.=20 \(NSN - DE/Munich\); ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: Re: [ppsp] charter=20 discussion
 
Hi all.
 
About comment for architectural survey,
Currently, The problem stat= ement=20 draft describes PPSP architecture because it contains PPSP concepts. Howeve= r,=20 the charter doesn't mention it.
I think that making a seperated architec= ture=20 document from problem statement is better. Or the charter should mention=20 it.
I think this is a similar suggestion as Christia= n's.I=20 think that we can add a section in the survey document in the following ver= sion=20 to state clearly PPSP architecture.
 
About comment for Usage document,
Interoperation document is not ba= d.=20 But, interoperation document can contain only interoperation issues. Howeve= r,=20 Usage document can contain many case. e.g. very simple scenario, which does= n't=20 have interoperation issue.
Good suggestion.We may add some scenarios in the= usage=20 document.
 
- Softgear Ko.
 
 

-----?? ???-----
From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN -=20 DE/Munich)" <christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com>
From Date: 2009-1= 1-10=20 ?? 2:04:50
To: "ext zhangyunfei" <zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com&= gt;,=20 "ppsp@ietf.org" <ppsp@ietf.org>
Cc:
Subject: Re:= =20 [ppsp] charter discussion

Hi Yunfei,
I like the text, nevertheless I w= ould like=20 to make the following text proposal and 2 questions for=20 clarifications.
 
Best Regards
Christian Schmidt
 
 
Proposed new text for more transparency in = main=20 description:

 

Architectural survey
3. An "architectural survey" document explaining= the=20 current P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P stream= ing,=20 and key issues in best practice.
It is good to have a description of the current = P2P=20 streaming architecture. What is missing is the relation to the PPSP work. W= ill=20 it contain a proposal for the PPSP architecture?
 
Usage document
This sounds more like a "interop document". Was = this=20 the intention?

Von: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von ext=20 zhangyunfei
Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. November 2009 13:15
An:= =20 ppsp@ietf.org
Betreff: [ppsp] charter discussion

Dear all,
   The following is the = latest=20 verion of the charter, which is one of the most important documents we need= to=20 discuss in the BOF. Suggestions and comments are highly=20 appreciated.
 
BR
Yunfei
------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------

=

Apr 2010

Working Group Last Call for problem=20 statement

Jun 2010

Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational=20 document

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for architecture=20 survey

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for=20 requirements

Oct

2010

Submit architecture survey to IESG as Informational=20 document

Oct 2010

Submit requirements to IESG as Informational=20 document

Apr 2011

Working Group Last Call for PPSP peer=20 protocol

Apr

2011

Working Group Last Call for PPSP tracker=20 protocol

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of usage=20 document

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of mobility BCP=20 document

Jan 2012

Submit usage document to IESG as Informational=20 document

Jan 2012

Submit mobility BCP document to IESG as Informational=20 document

Apr 2012

Dissolve or re-charter=20

zhangyunfei
2009-11-10
=
--=====003_Dragon051022314332_=====-- From victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com Tue Nov 10 09:11:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2C728C1E6 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:11:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.98 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.582, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_62=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sbjx1n9tQuqe for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:11:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f223.google.com (mail-bw0-f223.google.com [209.85.218.223]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E43D228C1D9 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz23 with SMTP id 23so242317bwz.29 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:11:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=IFc9q8TQiYXDbcIw+bn5ByCIYbbA6oEt/LTNmx3EtJE=; b=ixMRVlolMMQpKjOCjE/04efWWIQQwwMhifM2D++z3GOs51N+kfCNFRivk9FwyC6SgZ SPNjH2patVu4igvs1AjmfxbzV1xlnTlCNqY/MHZE2+vg69FovrCrFdH0WmET4qLuopNl /ZeD41dQkeMNvO3ZkASRvC2FPMsS1tjRlMH/M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=Tk5kesEpmFrs8vPwLYttAJ1Igswizeh8qdC30D1aC6mt0IhTw/XBVRfaZvr+4a+FpV rT5HH4SeNTuo7MZhLovrvh+CoDMhPJTARczpv09BYd7/LFnnq0VjcYWFFfrdiZSRfQUT Fcp+oQJgmjFIfmK7ZjZ9tB8WUhPCb3hxhKn/M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.155.65 with SMTP id r1mr328687bkw.143.1257873098444; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:11:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <200911102342404067140@chinamobile.com> References: <200911101314507501986@chinamobile.com> <200911102342404067140@chinamobile.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:11:38 +0100 Message-ID: <618e24240911100911h397d1a0bs661d2a80f538face@mail.gmail.com> From: Victor Pascual Avila To: zhangyunfei Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151747afcc3492b004780767d0 Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] charter discussion X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:11:18 -0000 --00151747afcc3492b004780767d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I'm fine with the proposed modifications. I do support the charter. Cheers, -Victor 2009/11/10 zhangyunfei > Hi Christian, > Thanks for the suggestion.Please see inline for the reply. > > BR > Yunfei > > ------------------------------ > zhangyunfei > 2009-11-10 > ------------------------------ > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/M= unich) > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2009-11-10 14:11:23 > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org > *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A* > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* AW: [ppsp] charter discussion > > Hi Yunfei, > I like the text, nevertheless I would like to make the following text > proposal and 2 questions for clarifications. > > Best Regards > Christian Schmidt > > > Proposed new text for more transparency in main description: > > Old text: > > The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP WG) is > chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols) > for multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, caches, conte= nt > distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) to participate in = P2P > streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet. > > > PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol =E2=80=93 a signaling pr= otocol > between =E2=80=9CPPSP trackers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CPPSP peers=E2=80=9D,= and the PPSP peer protocol =E2=80=93 a > signaling protocol among =E2=80=9CPPSP peers=E2=80=9D. A PPSP tracker mai= ntains lists of > participating PPSP peers, each for a specific channel or streaming file, = and > answers the queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers > inform their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk > availability with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PP= SP > peers for wanted data. > > > > New text: > > The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP WG) is > chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols)= for > P2P streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet. Participating > entities could be intelligent endpoints, caches, content distribution > network nodes, and/or other edge devices. > > I am okay for this modification. > > For a specific channel or streaming file, a PPSP tracker maintains lists = of > particiating PPSP peers. The PPSP tracker answers queries from PPSP peers > for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers provide their status information to > PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk availability with other PPSP peers > and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for wanted data. PPSP > protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol =E2=80=93 a signaling protoco= l between > =E2=80=9CPPSP trackers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CPPSP peers=E2=80=9D, and the= PPSP peer protocol =E2=80=93 a signaling > protocol among =E2=80=9CPPSP peers=E2=80=9D. > To make the scope clear,it would be better to state that we have tracker > protocol and peer protocol and then explain what each of them acts. > > Architectural survey > 3. An "architectural survey" document explaining the current P2P streamin= g > architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming, and key issues = in > best practice. > It is good to have a description of the current P2P streaming architectur= e. > What is missing is the relation to the PPSP work. Will it contain a propo= sal > for the PPSP architecture? > Good suggestion.We may contain a proposal for the PPSP > architecture(although which is almostly included in the survey)in the end= of > the architectural survey draft. > > Usage document > 6. A =E2=80=9Cusage document=E2=80=9D explaining how the protocols defin= ed above, along > with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can > inter-operate; and how they may be integrated together to produce complet= e > P2P streaming systems. > This sounds more like a "interop document". Was this the intention? > Actually we want to give the readers a whole picture of how a p2p streami= ng > system will be constructed with the exisiting and PPSP protocols.It just > wants to fill in these protcols to all the components in the architecture > figure we proposed in last bar bof. > > ------------------------------ > *Von:* ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] *Im Auftrag > von *ext zhangyunfei > *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 10. November 2009 13:15 > *An:* ppsp@ietf.org > *Betreff:* [ppsp] charter discussion > > Dear all, > The following is the latest verion of the charter, which is one of the > most important documents we need to discuss in the BOF. Suggestions and > comments are highly appreciated. > > BR > Yunfei > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------- > > ***Description of PPSP Working Group:* > > The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP WG) is > chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols) > for multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, caches, conte= nt > distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) to participate in = P2P > streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet. > > > PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol =E2=80=93 a signaling pr= otocol > between =E2=80=9CPPSP trackers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CPPSP peers=E2=80=9D,= and the PPSP peer protocol =E2=80=93 a > signaling protocol among =E2=80=9CPPSP peers=E2=80=9D. A PPSP tracker mai= ntains lists of > participating PPSP peers, each for a specific channel or streaming file, = and > answers the queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers > inform their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk > availability with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PP= SP > peers for wanted data. > > > > This WG's primary tasks are to produce: > 1. A =E2=80=9Cproblem statement=E2=80=9D document describing the problems= , incentives, and > scope of developing the PPSP protocols, as well as common terminologies a= nd > concepts. > > > > 2. A =E2=80=9Crequirements=E2=80=9D document listing the requirements on = the designed PPSP > protocols (e.g., general functionality and performance requirements of PP= SP > protocols or basic types of information that PPSP protocols should > communicate to facilitate P2P streaming). > > > 3. An "architectural survey" document explaining the current P2P streamin= g > architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming, and key issues = in > best practice. > > > 4. A proposed standard defining the PPSP peer protocol. This protocol wil= l > define how PPSP peers advertise chunk availability. The protocol will als= o > define the requests and responses of chunks among PPSP peers. > > > > 5. A proposed standard defining the PPSP tracker protocol. This protocol > will define how PPSP peers inform and request information from PPSP track= ers > and how PPSP trackers reply to the requests. > > > > 6. A =E2=80=9Cusage document=E2=80=9D explaining how the protocols define= d above, along > with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can > inter-operate; and how they may be integrated together to produce complet= e > P2P streaming systems. > > > > 7. Optionally a =E2=80=9Dmobile usage document=E2=80=9D (PPSP mobile BCP = document) to > evaluate PPSP with and without Mobile IP support when there are a lot of > mobile peers in the system. > > > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO and > MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, = and > MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO, MMU= SIC > are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and present to the > respective working groups. > > > The design of PPSP has to consider security/privacy issues. The protocol > document will contain a complete description of the security/privacy issu= es > that PPSP should address. > > > > The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. usin= g > TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. > > > 2. Network coding mechanisms in P2P streaming. Network coding may be used > in P2P streaming, but its support is beyond the scope of current charter. > > > > 3. Play-out mechanisms including streaming control (e.g., pause, > fast-forward, and rewind). > > > > 4. Algorithms that may be different in different deployments (e.g., chunk > selection, local storage strategies). > > > > 5. Research type questions related to P2P streaming. This WG will instead > forward such questions to the IRTF P2PRG or other RG as appropriate. > Examples include cache management. > > *Goals and Milestones:* > > Apr 2010 > > Working Group Last Call for problem statement > > Jun 2010 > > Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational document > > Aug 2010 > > Working Group Last Call for architecture survey > > Aug 2010 > > Working Group Last Call for requirements > > Oct > > 2010 > > Submit architecture survey to IESG as Informational document > > Oct 2010 > > Submit requirements to IESG as Informational document > > Apr 2011 > > Working Group Last Call for PPSP peer protocol > > Apr > > 2011 > > Working Group Last Call for PPSP tracker protocol > > Aug 2011 > > Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard > > Aug 2011 > > Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard > > Nov 2011 > > Working Group Last Call of usage document > > Nov 2011 > > Working Group Last Call of mobility BCP document > > Jan 2012 > > Submit usage document to IESG as Informational document > > Jan 2012 > > Submit mobility BCP document to IESG as Informational document > > Apr 2012 > > Dissolve or re-charter > > > > ------------------------------ > zhangyunfei > 2009-11-10 > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > --=20 Victor Pascual =C3=81vila --00151747afcc3492b004780767d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,

I'm fine with the proposed modifications. I do support the c= harter.

Cheers,
-Victor

2009/1= 1/10 zhangyunfei <zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com>
Hi Christian,
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thank= s for the=20 suggestion.Please see inline for the reply.
=C2=A0
BR
Yunfei
=C2=A0
zhangyunfei<= /font>
2009-11-10
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA= =EF=BC=9A Schmidt, Christian 1.=20 (NSN - DE/Munich)
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6= =E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A=20 2009-11-10=C2=A014:11:23
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA= =EF=BC=9A ext zhangyunfei;=20 ppsp@ietf.org=
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A=
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A= AW: [ppsp] charter=20 discussion
=C2=A0
Hi Yu= nfei,
I like the text, nevertheless I would like=20 to make the following=C2=A0text proposal and 2 questions for=20 clarifications.
=C2=A0
Best = Regards
Chris= tian Schmidt
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Proposed n= ew text=C2=A0for more transparency in main=20 description:

Old text:

The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streami= ng Protocol working group (PPSP WG)=20 is chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols= ) for=20 multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, caches, content=20 distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) to participate in P2= P=20 streaming systems in both fixed and mobile=20 Internet.


PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol = =E2=80=93 a signaling=20 protocol between =E2=80=9CPPSP trackers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CPPSP peers=E2= =80=9D, and the PPSP peer protocol =E2=80=93=20 a signaling protocol among =E2=80=9CPPSP peers=E2=80=9D. A PPSP tracker mai= ntains lists of=20 participating PPSP peers, each for a specific channel or streaming file, an= d=20 answers the queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers in= form=20 their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk availabilit= y=20 with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for wa= nted=20 data.

=C2=A0

New=C2=A0text:

The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) St= reaming Protocol=20 working group (PPSP WG) is chartered to develop standard signaling protocol= s=20 (called PPSP protocols)=C2=A0for P2P=20 streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet. Participating en= tities could be intelligent=20 endpoints, caches, content distribution network nodes, and/or other edge=20 devices.

I am okay for this= =20 modification.

<= /div>
= =C2=A0
For a=20 specific channel or streaming file, a PPSP tracker maintains lists of=20 particiating PPSP peers. The PPSP tracker answers queries from PPSP peers f= or=20 candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers=C2=A0provide their status information to P= PSP=20 trackers, exchange their chunk availability with other PPSP peers and/or PP= SP=20 trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for wanted data. PPSP protocols include = the=20 PPSP tracker protocol =E2=80=93 a signaling protocol between =E2=80=9CPPSP = trackers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CPPSP=20 peers=E2=80=9D, and the PPSP peer protocol =E2=80=93 a signaling protocol a= mong =E2=80=9CPPSP=20 peers=E2=80=9D.
To=20 make the scope clear,it would be better to state that we have tracker proto= col=20 and peer protocol and then explain what each of them=20 acts.
3. An &quo= t;architectural survey" document explaining the=20 current P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P stream= ing,=20 and key issues in best practice.
Good suggestion.We may contain a proposal for the PPSP=20 architecture(although which is almostly included in the survey)in the end o= f the=20 architectural survey draft.
Usage document
<= font color=3D"#000000">6. A =E2=80=9Cusage document=E2=80=9D explaining how= the protocols defined above,=20 along with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can=20 inter-operate; and how they may be integrated together to produce complete = P2P=20 streaming systems.
Actually we want to give the readers a whole picture of=20 how a p2p streaming system will be constructed with the exisiting and PPSP= =20 protocols.It just wants to fill in these protcols to all the=C2=A0component= s in=20 the architecture figure we proposed in last bar=20 bof.

Von: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bou= nces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von ext=20 zhangyunfei
Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. November 2009 13:15
An:= =20 ppsp@ietf.org
= Betreff: [ppsp] charter discussion

Dear all,
=C2=A0=C2=A0 The following is = the latest=20 verion of the charter, which is one of the most important documents we need= to=20 discuss in the BOF. Suggestions and comments are highly=20 appreciated.
=C2=A0
BR
Yunfei
-----------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------

Description= of PPSP Working Group:

The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Prot= ocol working group (PPSP WG) is=20 chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols) f= or=20 multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, caches, content=20 distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) to participate in P2= P=20 streaming systems in both fixed and mobile=20 Internet.


PPSP protocols include the PPSP t= racker protocol =E2=80=93 a signaling protocol=20 between =E2=80=9CPPSP trackers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CPPSP peers=E2=80=9D, a= nd the PPSP peer protocol =E2=80=93 a=20 signaling protocol among =E2=80=9CPPSP peers=E2=80=9D. A PPSP tracker maint= ains lists of=20 participating PPSP peers, each for a specific channel or streaming file, an= d=20 answers the queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers in= form=20 their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk availabilit= y=20 with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for wa= nted=20 data.

=C2=A0

This WG's primary tasks are to pr= oduce:
1. A =E2=80=9Cproblem statement=E2=80=9D=20 document describing the problems, incentives, and scope of developing the P= PSP=20 protocols, as well as common terminologies and=20 concepts.

=C2=A0

2. A =E2=80=9Crequirements=E2=80=9D d= ocument listing the requirements on the designed=20 PPSP protocols (e.g., general functionality and performance requirements of= PPSP=20 protocols or basic types of information that PPSP protocols should communic= ate=20 to facilitate P2P streaming).


3. An "architectural survey&= quot; document explaining the current P2P=20 streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming, and key= =20 issues in best practice.


4. A proposed standard defining t= he PPSP peer protocol. This protocol=20 will define how PPSP peers advertise chunk availability. The protocol will = also=20 define the requests and responses of chunks among PPSP=20 peers.

=C2=A0

5. A=20 proposed standard defining the PPSP tracker protocol. This protocol will de= fine=20 how PPSP peers inform and request information from PPSP trackers and how PP= SP=20 trackers reply to the requests.

=C2=A0

6. A =E2=80=9Cusage document=E2=80=9D= explaining how the protocols defined above, along=20 with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can inter-oper= ate;=20 and how they may be integrated together to produce complete P2P streaming= =20 systems.

=C2=A0

7. Optionally a =E2=80=9Dmobile usage= document=E2=80=9D (PPSP mobile BCP document) to=20 evaluate PPSP with and without Mobile IP support when there are a lot of mo= bile=20 peers in the system.


The work planned for the PPSP WG = is distinct from, but requires close=20 participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO and= =20 MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, an= d=20 MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO, MMUSI= C are=20 needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and present to the respect= ive=20 working groups.


The design of PPSP has to conside= r security/privacy issues. The protocol=20 document will contain a complete description of the security/privacy issues= that=20 PPSP should address.

=C2=A0

The following topics are excluded fro= m this WG's scope:
1. Transport=20 mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. using TCP or UDP,= =20 unicast or multicast, etc.


2. Network coding mechanisms in P= 2P streaming. Network coding may be used=20 in P2P streaming, but its support is beyond the scope of current=20 charter.

=C2=A0

3. Play-out mechanisms including stre= aming control (e.g., pause,=20 fast-forward, and rewind).

=C2=A0

4. Algorithms that may be different i= n different deployments (e.g., chunk=20 selection, local storage strategies).

=C2=A0

5. Research type questions related to= P2P streaming. This WG will instead=20 forward such questions to the IRTF P2PRG or other RG as appropriate. Exampl= es=20 include cache management.

Goals and Milestones:

Apr 2010

Working Group Last Call for pro= blem=20 statement

Jun 2010

Submit problem statement to IES= G as Informational=20 document

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for arc= hitecture=20 survey

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for=20 requirements

Oct

2010

Submit architecture survey to I= ESG as Informational=20 document

Oct 2010

Submit requirements to IESG as = Informational=20 document

Apr 2011

Working Group Last Call for PPS= P peer=20 protocol

Apr

2011

Working Group Last Call for PPS= P tracker=20 protocol

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP peer protocol to IE= SG as Proposed=20 Standard

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP tracker protocol to= IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of usag= e=20 document

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of mobi= lity BCP=20 document

Jan 2012

Submit usage document to IESG a= s Informational=20 document

Jan 2012

Submit mobility BCP document to= IESG as Informational=20 document

Apr 2012

Dissolve or re-charter=20

=C2=A0

=C2=A0
zhangyunfei
2009-11-10

_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp




--
Victor Pascual =C3= =81vila
--00151747afcc3492b004780767d0-- From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com Tue Nov 10 19:17:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1753A6892 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:17:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MoRTERNTH1rU for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:17:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (mailgw4.ericsson.se [193.180.251.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C18653A67D2 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:17:18 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-b7be0ae0000041b2-84-4afa2cd63963 Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 0A.F7.16818.6DC2AFA4; Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:17:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.174]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:17:40 +0100 Received: from [150.236.158.229] ([150.236.158.229]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:17:39 +0100 Message-ID: <4AFA2CD1.4040207@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:17:37 +0900 From: Gonzalo Camarillo User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2009 03:17:40.0327 (UTC) FILETIME=[86AB0770:01CA627D] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [ppsp] Jabber scribe for the meeting tomorrow X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:17:19 -0000 Hi, we need a jabber scribe for our meeting tomorrow. Having a scribe is important for remote participants. In order not to waste time at the beginning of the meeting looking for one, we would like to get a volunteer in advance. So, if you are willing to be our jabber scribe in tomorrow's meeting, please let us know. Thanks, Gonzalo From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com Wed Nov 11 15:46:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D73503A6B7F for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:46:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W1Y2Fewm1tNc for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:46:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw5.ericsson.se (mailgw5.ericsson.se [193.180.251.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E6AF3A69DF for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:46:26 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb24-b7b12ae000007bda-64-4afb4ceda08f Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw5.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 8E.C0.31706.DEC4BFA4; Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:46:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.170]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:46:14 +0100 Received: from [150.236.158.131] ([150.236.158.131]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:46:13 +0100 Message-ID: <4AFB4CC3.9070105@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:46:11 +0900 From: Gonzalo Camarillo User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2009 23:46:14.0123 (UTC) FILETIME=[2783ABB0:01CA6329] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [ppsp] Slides uploaded X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:46:28 -0000 Hi, we have already uploaded all the slides we will be using in today's session at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/76/materials.html Search for 'PPSP'. Cheers, Gonzalo From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Nov 12 19:50:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CFA03A67B6 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:50:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.881 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.881 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.427, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SPXXh1Xcizak for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36E03A6811 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:49:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009111311564276-6898 ; Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:56:42 +0800 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 12:50:14 +0900 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <4AFB4CC3.9070105@ericsson.com> Message-ID: <200911131250128905457@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-13 11:56:45, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-13 11:50:28, Serialize complete at 2009-11-13 11:50:28 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon264380868846_=====" Subject: [ppsp] Fw: My notes from PPSP X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 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LiBOb3cgbmVlZCB0byBtYWtlIHRoZSByaWdodCANCmRlY2lzaW9uLjwvRk9OVD48L1A+PC9ESVY+ PC9GT05UPjwvRElWPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= --=====003_Dragon264380868846_=====-- From lars.eggert@nokia.com Wed Nov 18 06:55:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E26C28C0D9 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2009 06:55:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mPpSXdS1c+1t for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2009 06:55:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (mail.fit.nokia.com [195.148.124.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA23828C0D6 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2009 06:55:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:708:40:fff2:225:ff:fe45:eccf] (lars.local [IPv6:2001:708:40:fff2:225:ff:fe45:eccf] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.fit.nokia.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nAIEt4tG037247 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:55:04 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from lars.eggert@nokia.com) From: Lars Eggert Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-66--1071453667; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:55:04 +0200 Message-Id: <94705745-40BC-4078-908B-98CE0B0290B6@nokia.com> To: ppsp@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (mail.fit.nokia.com [IPv6:2001:708:40:fff1::1]); Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:55:04 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ppsp] BOF follow-up X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:55:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail-66--1071453667 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I wanted to send a quick follow-up now that the BOF has happened, to let = you all know where I think we are. My take away was that the BOF went well, and there is interest and = energy in the community to take on some work in this space. On the other = hand, the discussion made it clear that the charter proposal needs some = additional revising (stressing the realtime aspects of the system, = further narrowing of scope, etc.) before we can decide if we want to go = ahead with it. I'd like to ask the BOF chairs (Yunfei and Gonzalo) to continue to lead = the needed follow-up discussion that will get us to the point where PPSP = can be chartered. 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X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-91.914 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_65=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2JBshNnlC6gW for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02FA93A67B3 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.0.125]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009111909542600-2492 ; Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:54:26 +0800 Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:47:30 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Lars Eggert" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <94705745-40BC-4078-908B-98CE0B0290B6@nokia.com> Message-ID: <200911190947302031101@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-19 09:54:26, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-19 09:47:39, Serialize complete at 2009-11-19 09:47:39 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon446122850357_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] BOF follow-up X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:47:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon446122850357_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGksDQogICBUaGFua3MgTGFycyBmb3IgdGhlIGluZm8uSXQncyByZWFsbHkgZW5jb3VyYWdpbmcu 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TD4NCg== --=====003_Dragon446122850357_=====-- From albertojgc@gmail.com Fri Nov 20 05:54:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39A13A6AD3 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:54:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.439 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.439 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ty71rZQ7SORb for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:54:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f223.google.com (mail-bw0-f223.google.com [209.85.218.223]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B2C43A6ACA for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:54:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz23 with SMTP id 23so3483654bwz.29 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:54:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=ACdC9nmFmncUxi+Rp52n/qP/pr6Qlj3r5i2OW1UDNck=; b=gBrif3ynfq6GwIGTYZxhbgq71xIaboCWaBCwT3XQloUUg7vLQXivU1oj3XyngpbqSB VEVNc1XfgXqyPHu6xQ4Ht/whxH2FbKkZZWFs+8lBa/CfiMB7mhQ0UqWb9SQmHmh86CdM E6qTL2izEr/MU2mSAvycnS2swUsNnvpdBO5+Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=Y99m1Ikn044uaL0F0reEVfQB2I+aP7KmaLmOpPZrMKCypLsflg18c1rT4SuyAiGLpm BHvJ8wUd4tl5GktZpqnwQpu/qEaqftx8azU1c7hjgouAvGQexJ/FFzXRAAz0u+GK86R7 fILiPifemYr3MUK9+uDMJWPgP0HDnuspyMEmw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.162.210 with SMTP id w18mr1360863bkx.174.1258725247213; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:54:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:54:07 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: ppsp@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000325559f3e3ae0a80478cdcf76 Subject: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media synch X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:54:14 -0000 --000325559f3e3ae0a80478cdcf76 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear all, I don't know if media synchronization is out of the scope of PPSP. However, in this sense, I would like to ask you if media synchronization can be included in PPSP standardization. I think that this issue can be very interesting when proposing PPSP Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exchange data taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structure shown in : http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02 Which corresponds to the following representation: +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bitstream") transmission. What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM representation. Thanks to this, the application can specify multiple-related flows. This can be easily seen when applying source coding techniques such as MDC (Multiple Description Coding) or SVC (Scalable Video Coding), where media is composed of several layers. However, the same happens when we want to transmit multimedia contents, for instance, video and audio independently (not contained or multiplexed in a single stream such as when using MPEG-TS). Thus, the BM can be represented as follows: +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ . . . +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer N | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers of the same bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are using video and audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and Layer 2 to audio. The BM now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis represents the Chunk ID (the same way as the original proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and the Y-axis denotes the layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks to a specific stream). This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of the application in an easy manner by means of PPSP. BR, -- Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation --000325559f3e3ae0a80478cdcf76 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all,

I= don't know if media synchronization is out of the scope of PPSP. Howev= er, in this sense, I would like to ask you if media synchronization can be = included in PPSP standardization.

I think that this issue can be very interesting when pr= oposing PPSP Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exc= hange data taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structu= re shown in :


Which cor= responds to the following representation:
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--=
-+---+---+
 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bitstream= ") transmission.

What I propose is to allow u= sing a 2 dimensions (2D) BM representation. Thanks to this, the application= can specify multiple-related flows. This can be easily seen when applying = source coding techniques such as MDC (Multiple Description Coding) or SVC (= Scalable Video Coding), where media is composed of several layers. However,= the same happens when we want to transmit multimedia contents, for instanc= e, video and audio independently (not contained or multiplexed in a single = stream such as when using MPEG-TS).

Thus, the BM can be represented as follows:
<= br>
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---=
+---+---+
Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
= 
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---=
+---+---+
Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
= 
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---=
+---+---+
Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

.
.
.
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---=
+---+
Layer N  | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+



Here= , Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers of the same bitstr= eam (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are using video and audio = separately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and Layer 2 to audio.=A0The BM = now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis represents the Chunk ID (the same= way as the original proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and the Y-axis = denotes the layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks to a specific= stream).

This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of t= he application in an easy manner by means of PPSP.

BR,

--
Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela
Universita= t Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation

--000325559f3e3ae0a80478cdcf76-- From james.seng@gmail.com Fri Nov 20 06:02:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F18C3A6946 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:02:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.676 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.676 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wnt15B0lW2b3 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-px0-f186.google.com (mail-px0-f186.google.com [209.85.216.186]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A4883A6944 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by pxi16 with SMTP id 16so2290267pxi.29 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:02:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=48Xdv1122QmwE6nL7T7GTMB68CMg7Dxt7FBoL8OivpE=; b=Qh/3x4Ff8Dgl4c3u2wtIinJaUyPRZHRkm0GDuov/akLgbNzcfGb6W0VYN7FbbE0gCP uyFGCyb7MtexMPmpKFL4j1oXjvzCNh99svCp9RDxsDtZ58xl5piVrrMqfjgTKiL0yoGn zSXdxavUqnb/UNu+9kWW50Xj0c6+0LoJjDlnA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=Xn5NwZxusvKtpZUZSDHmEeIus6SRMce+M9d3bDhXRPKHt/oPm17Zv7L0Zn3PoBy8Sx 2OM/QsNW5eaEcahCXlMLcp/UjIMqkrCtnuWCKC1CdcLxJ9ekk84FhT03wRIReEEZ1+mB Mm75cIhT3VLlQozDF+KR/Vsj+60tUbrXtpt9U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: james.seng@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.151.22 with SMTP id y22mr155470wfd.100.1258725743068; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:02:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: James Seng Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:02:03 +0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: a7458107ec7f99cc Message-ID: <558a39a60911200602j17e011c9ubb482d9fa08b8043@mail.gmail.com> To: =?UTF-8?Q?Alberto_Jos=C3=A9_Gonz=C3=A1lez_Cela?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd15002c906160478cdec50 Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media synch X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:02:31 -0000 --000e0cd15002c906160478cdec50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alberto bought up an very interesting point of having technique that carter for certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers that where some would be essential and some would be optional, but depending what get drops, the quality of the media would varies. I think instead of creating a 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve the same effect with a linear bitmap. What is more important in the protocol is to identify which piece is essential and which piece is optional. Or more generically, a scalar priority number of each piece, in such a way that the app can then make decision which they would pick to when they have resource constraint. For example, one could discard video and prioritize audio (or vice verse). (The other challenge is how to sync up video and voice if when that happens but thats an app problem). -James Seng 2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=C3=A9 Gonz=C3=A1lez Cela > Dear all, > > I don't know if media synchronization is out of the scope of PPSP. Howeve= r, > in this sense, I would like to ask you if media synchronization can be > included in PPSP standardization. > > I think that this issue can be very interesting when proposing PPSP Peer > Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exchange data takin= g > advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structure shown in : > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02 > > Which corresponds to the following representation: > > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > > > This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bitstream") > transmission. > > What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM representation. > Thanks to this, the application can specify multiple-related flows. This = can > be easily seen when applying source coding techniques such as MDC (Multip= le > Description Coding) or SVC (Scalable Video Coding), where media is compos= ed > of several layers. However, the same happens when we want to transmit > multimedia contents, for instance, video and audio independently (not > contained or multiplexed in a single stream such as when using MPEG-TS). > > Thus, the BM can be represented as follows: > > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > > > . > > . > > . > > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > Layer N | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > > > > > Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers of the same > bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are using video an= d > audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and Layer 2 to audio. T= he > BM now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis represents the Chunk ID (the > same way as the original proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and the > Y-axis denotes the layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks to a > specific stream). > > This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of the application in = an > easy manner by means of PPSP. > > BR, > > -- > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela > Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > --000e0cd15002c906160478cdec50 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alberto bought up an very interesting point of having technique that carter= for certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers that where = some would be essential and some would be optional, but depending what get = drops, the quality of the media would varies.

I think instead of creating a 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve t= he same effect with a linear bitmap. What is more important in the protocol= is to identify which piece is essential and which piece is optional. Or mo= re generically, a scalar priority number of each piece, in such a way that = the app can then make decision which they would pick to when they have reso= urce constraint.

For example, one could discard video and prioritize audio (or vice vers= e). (The other challenge is how to sync up video and voice if when that hap= pens but thats an app problem).

-James Seng

2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=C3=A9 Gonz=C3=A1lez Cela <albertojgc@gmail.com>
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 2= 04, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Dear all,

I don't know if media sync= hronization is out of the scope of PPSP. However, in this sense, I would li= ke to ask you if media synchronization can be included in PPSP standardizat= ion.

I think that this issue can be very interesting when pr= oposing PPSP Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exc= hange data taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structu= re shown in :


Which corr= esponds to the following representation:
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+-=
--+---+
 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bitstream= ") transmission.

What I propose is to allow u= sing a 2 dimensions (2D) BM representation. Thanks to this, the application= can specify multiple-related flows. This can be easily seen when applying = source coding techniques such as MDC (Multiple Description Coding) or SVC (= Scalable Video Coding), where media is composed of several layers. However,= the same happens when we want to transmit multimedia contents, for instanc= e, video and audio independently (not contained or multiplexed in a single = stream such as when using MPEG-TS).

Thus, the BM can be represented as follows:
<= br>

        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+=
---+---+
Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
= 

        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+=
---+---+
Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
= 

        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+=
---+---+
Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+


.
.

.
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---=
+
Layer N  | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+



<=
span style=3D"font-size: small;">
Here, L= ayer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers of the same bitstream= (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are using video and audio sep= arately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and Layer 2 to audio.=C2=A0The BM = now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis represents the Chunk ID (the same= way as the original proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and the Y-axis = denotes the layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks to a specific= stream).

This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of t= he application in an easy manner by means of PPSP.

BR,

--
Alberto Jose Gonz= alez Cela
Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation


_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp


--000e0cd15002c906160478cdec50-- From albertojgc@gmail.com Fri Nov 20 06:16:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 409C528C12B for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:16:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.624 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.624 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.185, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9-N4uhA-Os8Y for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:16:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f223.google.com (mail-bw0-f223.google.com [209.85.218.223]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7329028C139 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz23 with SMTP id 23so3508386bwz.29 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:16:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=6g13TPZYlyq05GD/TmkO1BZr7sP89mTiMPwwIhj6gt4=; b=AZnsP1BLMZQMhSK85gdDDND6+x/6ttEYoIGvJAQsOi+I2vL9WNn9FV2o1odvtwcaKz rhlFugcrhfqp3ySrjPDjtdT6TOqQ+pZjQZCi+ziTGNui68y1jZaHMwwOhfRSXpBmeSK0 0SAQFemfxAGxYnZ6ZbsSUkgSoT9On8OWrx050= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=H6oYMIi83WzLeCPLT84OauzBhgUp4xuoxkZvPNKxYffcO0v0ef8h7aTCAKFzQoY2C5 xOXpTxM1laPQUb8hwkwO3dU5WnU0lN2uHRimU4aYcqul6/xK9MZcLsev58wtqhVYL/qg FSEJ8xbne1IJbNreketbCTryyS/aHF7/0Qrl0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.5.75 with SMTP id 11mr1494938bku.20.1258726565490; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:16:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <558a39a60911200602j17e011c9ubb482d9fa08b8043@mail.gmail.com> References: <558a39a60911200602j17e011c9ubb482d9fa08b8043@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:16:05 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: James Seng Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151743f754ce32f30478ce1dd4 Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media synch X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:16:13 -0000 --00151743f754ce32f30478ce1dd4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to scalar priority= , do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that sense, layers can have a priority order. However, the application can apply the priority as it desires (if it already knows what kind of media is going to be distributed and which features it has). BR, Alberto. Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation 2009/11/20 James Seng > Alberto bought up an very interesting point of having technique that cart= er > for certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers that where > some would be essential and some would be optional, but depending what ge= t > drops, the quality of the media would varies. > > I think instead of creating a 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve the > same effect with a linear bitmap. What is more important in the protocol = is > to identify which piece is essential and which piece is optional. Or more > generically, a scalar priority number of each piece, in such a way that t= he > app can then make decision which they would pick to when they have resour= ce > constraint. > > For example, one could discard video and prioritize audio (or vice verse)= . > (The other challenge is how to sync up video and voice if when that happe= ns > but thats an app problem). > > -James Seng > > 2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela > >> Dear all, >> >> I don't know if media synchronization is out of the scope of PPSP. >> However, in this sense, I would like to ask you if media synchronization= can >> be included in PPSP standardization. >> >> I think that this issue can be very interesting when proposing PPSP Peer >> Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exchange data taki= ng >> advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structure shown in : >> >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02 >> >> Which corresponds to the following representation: >> >> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >> | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >> >> >> This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bitstream") >> transmission. >> >> What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM representation. >> Thanks to this, the application can specify multiple-related flows. This= can >> be easily seen when applying source coding techniques such as MDC (Multi= ple >> Description Coding) or SVC (Scalable Video Coding), where media is compo= sed >> of several layers. However, the same happens when we want to transmit >> multimedia contents, for instance, video and audio independently (not >> contained or multiplexed in a single stream such as when using MPEG-TS). >> >> Thus, the BM can be represented as follows: >> >> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >> Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >> >> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >> Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >> >> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >> Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >> >> >> . >> >> . >> >> . >> >> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >> Layer N | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >> >> >> >> >> Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers of the same >> bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are using video a= nd >> audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and Layer 2 to audio. = The >> BM now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis represents the Chunk ID (th= e >> same way as the original proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and the >> Y-axis denotes the layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks to = a >> specific stream). >> >> This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of the application in >> an easy manner by means of PPSP. >> >> BR, >> >> -- >> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >> Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> >> > --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela --00151743f754ce32f30478ce1dd4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to scalar priority= , do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that sense, layers ca= n have a priority order. However, the application can apply the priority as= it desires (if it already knows what kind of media is going to be distribu= ted and which features it has).=A0

BR,

Alberto.

Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation

2009/11/20 James Seng <james@seng.sg>
Alberto bought up an very interesting point= of having technique that carter for certain media descriptive. Specificall= y, SVC allows layers that where some would be essential and some would be o= ptional, but depending what get drops, the quality of the media would varie= s.

I think instead of creating a 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve t= he same effect with a linear bitmap. What is more important in the protocol= is to identify which piece is essential and which piece is optional. Or mo= re generically, a scalar priority number of each piece, in such a way that = the app can then make decision which they would pick to when they have reso= urce constraint.

For example, one could discard video and prioritize audio (or vice vers= e). (The other challenge is how to sync up video and voice if when that hap= pens but thats an app problem).

-James Seng

2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela <albertojgc@gmail.com>=
Dear all,

I don't know if media synchroniz= ation is out of the scope of PPSP. However, in this sense, I would like to = ask you if media synchronization can be included in PPSP standardization.

I think that this issue can be very interesting when pr= oposing PPSP Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exc= hange data taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structu= re shown in :


Which corres= ponds to the following representation:
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bitstream= ") transmission.

What I propose is to allow u= sing a 2 dimensions (2D) BM representation. Thanks to this, the application= can specify multiple-related flows. This can be easily seen when applying = source coding techniques such as MDC (Multiple Description Coding) or SVC (= Scalable Video Coding), where media is composed of several layers. However,= the same happens when we want to transmit multimedia contents, for instanc= e, video and audio independently (not contained or multiplexed in a single = stream such as when using MPEG-TS).

Thus, the BM can be represented as follows:
<= br>
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--=
-+---+
Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
= 
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
= 
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

.
.
.
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer N  | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+



Here, Layer 1, 2,..= N can represent different quality layers of the same bitstream (considerin= g MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are using video and audio separately, Lay= er 1 can correspond to video and Layer 2 to audio.=A0The BM now is represen= ted by 2 dimension. X-axis represents the Chunk ID (the same way as the ori= ginal proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and the Y-axis denotes the lay= er where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks to a specific stream).

This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of t= he application in an easy manner by means of PPSP.

BR,

--
Alberto Jose Gonz= alez Cela
Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation


_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp





--
Alberto Jose Gonzalez C= ela

--00151743f754ce32f30478ce1dd4-- From james.seng@gmail.com Fri Nov 20 06:28:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2733A6ADE for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:28:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.676 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.676 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KprEbjSqCX2b for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:28:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pw0-f50.google.com (mail-pw0-f50.google.com [209.85.160.50]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278B03A6AD9 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:28:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwi6 with SMTP id 6so2240549pwi.29 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:28:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=p8EUqHr4piWaxpLpmNemod89ala5aJ/PFcYpQ9vcH+g=; b=cWKFDyIoj9/RJrKJryqeHBOk4pqUrrQrHY+/RxvIIiSKr9IGKD18iZjmfz+DrE3yuC gO1pJIqlSTuWTKp58DFxQcr+Qy3FnJeROkdsTp9CYAK7fW8DVSZ8S0OFlI9YDa4yzHOY HvvK/DG/hlN6h7OlEtj9OCsSI+XUXcNHro4Gg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=H5oAVI96RP9Tvt+4YZRYUPWJ6lKIxIAbjFxyotHXB21cmWWWXeeZ0vyduGthCqafxi 1/FLM6kiFH0tu7WTRlsgJyJLLj7ws74DU5vv2iwBMxlDsj3wiPwhcg2qiZtv7xFQ5p2R kH1qI3xZUPjcuCRwKM2QffgeVQdk6bUz2JzzE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: james.seng@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.196.18 with SMTP id t18mr171633wff.32.1258727317063; Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:28:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <558a39a60911200602j17e011c9ubb482d9fa08b8043@mail.gmail.com> From: James Seng Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:28:17 +0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5f92b3a446d9cac3 Message-ID: <558a39a60911200628m7f762cachd2992c1240e0085b@mail.gmail.com> To: =?UTF-8?Q?Alberto_Jos=C3=A9_Gonz=C3=A1lez_Cela?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd32f549a4a4d0478ce4a51 Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media synch X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:28:43 -0000 --000e0cd32f549a4a4d0478ce4a51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Preciesly. The priority would also help in network management, assisting in network that has certain constraint to "drop" pieces, if need to be. I don'= t like network meddling in my data in general but one of the original intention of PPSP is to help network admin to manage/cache/prioritize P2P traffic while providing the as much quality as it can within resource constraint. -James Seng 2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=C3=A9 Gonz=C3=A1lez Cela > I agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to scalar > priority, do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that sense, layers ca= n > have a priority order. However, the application can apply the priority as= it > desires (if it already knows what kind of media is going to be distribute= d > and which features it has). > > BR, > > Alberto. > > Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation > > 2009/11/20 James Seng > > Alberto bought up an very interesting point of having technique that cart= er >> for certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers that wher= e >> some would be essential and some would be optional, but depending what g= et >> drops, the quality of the media would varies. >> >> I think instead of creating a 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve th= e >> same effect with a linear bitmap. What is more important in the protocol= is >> to identify which piece is essential and which piece is optional. Or mor= e >> generically, a scalar priority number of each piece, in such a way that = the >> app can then make decision which they would pick to when they have resou= rce >> constraint. >> >> For example, one could discard video and prioritize audio (or vice verse= ). >> (The other challenge is how to sync up video and voice if when that happ= ens >> but thats an app problem). >> >> -James Seng >> >> 2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=C3=A9 Gonz=C3=A1lez Cela >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I don't know if media synchronization is out of the scope of PPSP. >>> However, in this sense, I would like to ask you if media synchronizatio= n can >>> be included in PPSP standardization. >>> >>> I think that this issue can be very interesting when proposing PPSP Pee= r >>> Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exchange data tak= ing >>> advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structure shown in : >>> >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02 >>> >>> Which corresponds to the following representation: >>> >>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>> | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>> >>> >>> This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bitstream") >>> transmission. >>> >>> What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM representation. >>> Thanks to this, the application can specify multiple-related flows. Thi= s can >>> be easily seen when applying source coding techniques such as MDC (Mult= iple >>> Description Coding) or SVC (Scalable Video Coding), where media is comp= osed >>> of several layers. However, the same happens when we want to transmit >>> multimedia contents, for instance, video and audio independently (not >>> contained or multiplexed in a single stream such as when using MPEG-TS)= . >>> >>> Thus, the BM can be represented as follows: >>> >>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>> Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>> >>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>> Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>> >>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>> Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>> >>> >>> . >>> >>> . >>> >>> . >>> >>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>> Layer N | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers of the sam= e >>> bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are using video = and >>> audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and Layer 2 to audio.= The >>> BM now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis represents the Chunk ID (t= he >>> same way as the original proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and the >>> Y-axis denotes the layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks to= a >>> specific stream). >>> >>> This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of the application i= n >>> an easy manner by means of PPSP. >>> >>> BR, >>> >>> -- >>> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >>> Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ppsp mailing list >>> ppsp@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela > > --000e0cd32f549a4a4d0478ce4a51 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Preciesly. The priority would also help in network management, assisting in= network that has certain constraint to "drop" pieces, if need to= be. I don't like network meddling in my data in general but one of the= original intention of PPSP is to help network admin to manage/cache/priori= tize P2P traffic while providing the as much quality as it can within resou= rce constraint.

-James Seng

2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=C3= =A9 Gonz=C3=A1lez Cela <albertojgc@gmail.com>
I agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to scalar priority= , do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that sense, layers ca= n have a priority order. However, the application can apply the priority as= it desires (if it already knows what kind of media is going to be distribu= ted and which features it has).=C2=A0

BR,

Alberto.

Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Founda= tion

2009/11/20 James Seng <james@seng= .sg>

Alberto bought up= an very interesting point of having technique that carter for certain medi= a descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers that where some would be ess= ential and some would be optional, but depending what get drops, the qualit= y of the media would varies.

I think instead of creating a 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve t= he same effect with a linear bitmap. What is more important in the protocol= is to identify which piece is essential and which piece is optional. Or mo= re generically, a scalar priority number of each piece, in such a way that = the app can then make decision which they would pick to when they have reso= urce constraint.

For example, one could discard video and prioritize audio (or vice vers= e). (The other challenge is how to sync up video and voice if when that hap= pens but thats an app problem).

-James Seng

2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=C3=A9 Gonz=C3=A1lez Cela <albertojgc@gmail.com>
Dear all,

I don't know if media sync= hronization is out of the scope of PPSP. However, in this sense, I would li= ke to ask you if media synchronization can be included in PPSP standardizat= ion.

I think that this issue can be very interesting when pr= oposing PPSP Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exc= hange data taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structu= re shown in :


Which corr= esponds to the following representation:
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+-=
--+---+
 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bitstream= ") transmission.

What I propose is to allow u= sing a 2 dimensions (2D) BM representation. Thanks to this, the application= can specify multiple-related flows. This can be easily seen when applying = source coding techniques such as MDC (Multiple Description Coding) or SVC (= Scalable Video Coding), where media is composed of several layers. However,= the same happens when we want to transmit multimedia contents, for instanc= e, video and audio independently (not contained or multiplexed in a single = stream such as when using MPEG-TS).

Thus, the BM can be represented as follows:
<= br>

        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+=
---+---+
Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
= 

        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+=
---+---+
Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
= 

        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+=
---+---+
Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+


.
.

.
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---=
+
Layer N  | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+



<=
span style=3D"font-size: small;">
Here, L= ayer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers of the same bitstream= (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are using video and audio sep= arately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and Layer 2 to audio.=C2=A0The BM = now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis represents the Chunk ID (the same= way as the original proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and the Y-axis = denotes the layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks to a specific= stream).

This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of t= he application in an easy manner by means of PPSP.

BR,

--
Alberto Jose Gonz= alez Cela
Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation


_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp





--
Alberto Jos= e Gonzalez Cela


--000e0cd32f549a4a4d0478ce4a51-- From guyingjie@huawei.com Wed Nov 25 18:33:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 597BD3A6938 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:33:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.809 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.809 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 499jon9s6y3O for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539B33A67EB for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:33:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KTP0003M33JKB@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:33:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KTP00B3F33JH9@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:33:19 +0800 (CST) Received: from g00107907 ([10.164.12.64]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KTP0042A33J08@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:33:19 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:33:18 +0800 From: "Y.J. Gu" In-reply-to: To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?'Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela'?= , 'James Seng' Message-id: <015201ca6e40$d0a05050$400ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_z95eI7L6FDpBPCS3cL4v7w)" Thread-index: Acpp7AdZP+iGsfXKQ328fwhGCp0R1QEU/1JA Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media synch X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:33:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_z95eI7L6FDpBPCS3cL4v7w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable well, how to give weight to layers in a linear bm? =20 Regards Yingjie Gu =20 _____ =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 10:16 PM To: James Seng Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media synch I agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to scalar = priority, do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that sense, layers can have a priority order. However, the application can apply the priority as it desires (if it already knows what kind of media is going to be = distributed and which features it has). =20 BR, Alberto. Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation 2009/11/20 James Seng Alberto bought up an very interesting point of having technique that = carter for certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers that = where some would be essential and some would be optional, but depending what = get drops, the quality of the media would varies. I think instead of creating a 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve = the same effect with a linear bitmap. What is more important in the protocol = is to identify which piece is essential and which piece is optional. Or = more generically, a scalar priority number of each piece, in such a way that = the app can then make decision which they would pick to when they have = resource constraint. For example, one could discard video and prioritize audio (or vice = verse). (The other challenge is how to sync up video and voice if when that = happens but thats an app problem).=20 -James Seng 2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela Dear all,=20 I don't know if media synchronization is out of the scope of PPSP. = However, in this sense, I would like to ask you if media synchronization can be included in PPSP standardization. I think that this issue can be very interesting when proposing PPSP Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exchange data = taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structure shown in : http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02 Which corresponds to the following representation: +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bitstream") transmission. What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM representation. Thanks to this, the application can specify multiple-related flows. This = can be easily seen when applying source coding techniques such as MDC = (Multiple Description Coding) or SVC (Scalable Video Coding), where media is = composed of several layers. However, the same happens when we want to transmit multimedia contents, for instance, video and audio independently (not contained or multiplexed in a single stream such as when using MPEG-TS). Thus, the BM can be represented as follows: +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ . . . +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer N | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers of the same bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are using video = and audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and Layer 2 to audio. = The BM now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis represents the Chunk ID = (the same way as the original proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and the Y-axis denotes the layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks to = a specific stream). This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of the application in = an easy manner by means of PPSP. BR, --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela=20 Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela --Boundary_(ID_z95eI7L6FDpBPCS3cL4v7w) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
well, how to give weight to layers in a linear = bm?
 

Regards

Yingjie Gu

 

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alberto Jos=E9 = Gonz=E1lez=20 Cela
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 10:16 PM
To: = James=20 Seng
Cc: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP = Peer=20 Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media = synch

I agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to = scalar=20 priority, do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that sense, layers = can=20 have a priority order. However, the application can apply the priority = as it=20 desires (if it already knows what kind of media is going to be = distributed and=20 which features it has). 

BR,

Alberto.

Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation

2009/11/20 James Seng <james@seng.sg>
Alberto=20 bought up an very interesting point of having technique that carter = for=20 certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers that = where some=20 would be essential and some would be optional, but depending what = get drops,=20 the quality of the media would varies.

I think instead of = creating a=20 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve the same effect with a = linear=20 bitmap. What is more important in the protocol is to identify which = piece is=20 essential and which piece is optional. Or more generically, a scalar = priority number of each piece, in such a way that the app can then = make=20 decision which they would pick to when they have resource=20 constraint.

For example, one could discard video and = prioritize audio=20 (or vice verse). (The other challenge is how to sync up video and = voice if=20 when that happens but thats an app problem).

-James = Seng

2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela = <albertojgc@gmail.com>
Dear=20 all,

I don't know if media synchronization is out of the scope of = PPSP.=20 However, in this sense, I would like to ask you if media = synchronization=20 can be included in PPSP standardization.

I think that this issue can be very interesting when = proposing PPSP=20 Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to = exchange data=20 taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structure = shown=20 in :

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02

Which corresponds to the following representation:
 =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single = bitstream")=20 transmission.

What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM=20 representation. Thanks to this, the application can specify=20 multiple-related flows. This can be easily seen when applying = source=20 coding techniques such as MDC (Multiple Description Coding) or SVC = (Scalable Video Coding), where media is composed of several = layers.=20 However, the same happens when we want to transmit multimedia = contents,=20 for instance, video and audio independently (not contained or = multiplexed=20 in a single stream such as when using MPEG-TS).

Thus, the BM can be represented as follows:

        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

.
.
.
         =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer N  | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+



Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers = of the=20 same bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are = using=20 video and audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and = Layer 2 to=20 audio. The BM now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis = represents=20 the Chunk ID (the same way as the original proposal, allowing = temporal=20 ordering), and the Y-axis denotes the layer where a Chunk belongs = to=20 (associates chunks to a specific stream).

This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of the = application=20 in an easy manner by means of PPSP.

BR,

-- =
Alberto Jose=20 Gonzalez Cela
Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT=20 = Foundation


__________________________= _____________________
ppsp=20 mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp




--
Alberto Jose Gonzalez=20 Cela

--Boundary_(ID_z95eI7L6FDpBPCS3cL4v7w)-- From guyingjie@huawei.com Wed Nov 25 20:07:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FAAE3A6979 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:07:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.243 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.243 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_05=-1.11, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dl+jzRaCHJaG for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:07:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29AF83A697D for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:07:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KTP00FWI7DI0J@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:05:42 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KTP005UO7DIGN@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:05:42 +0800 (CST) Received: from g00107907 ([10.164.12.64]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KTP00EK87DHO8@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:05:42 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:05:41 +0800 From: "Y.J. Gu" In-reply-to: <558a39a60911200628m7f762cachd2992c1240e0085b@mail.gmail.com> To: 'James Seng' , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?'Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela'?= Message-id: <016201ca6e4d$b8756940$400ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_WpBjNY11WF8nJi97d+92bQ)" Thread-index: Acpp7c66wtCQUORXQ7WxJ3NN9LueqgEXZ6pw Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media synch X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:07:26 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_WpBjNY11WF8nJi97d+92bQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =20 Priority is a good idea. When I think about priority, I find there are = two aspects. On one hand, the requesting peer should know what is essential to itself = and identify the essential pieces in the request messages so that these = pieces can be transmitted earlier and, if applicable, guaranteed. For example, when switching channel , the first pieces are essential to the delay of switching, so these pieces should be given high priority in the request messages. =20 On the other hand, buffer map provided by responsive peers or torrent = file provided by the seeds should show the priority of pieces or chunks, so = that the requesting peers can make a decision which pieces or chunks should = be obtained first when there is a network jam. =20 =20 Regards Yingjie Gu =20 _____ =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of James Seng Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 10:28 PM To: Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media synch Preciesly. The priority would also help in network management, assisting = in network that has certain constraint to "drop" pieces, if need to be. I = don't like network meddling in my data in general but one of the original intention of PPSP is to help network admin to manage/cache/prioritize = P2P traffic while providing the as much quality as it can within resource constraint. -James Seng 2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela I agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to scalar = priority, do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that sense, layers can have a priority order. However, the application can apply the priority as it desires (if it already knows what kind of media is going to be = distributed and which features it has). =20 BR, Alberto. Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation 2009/11/20 James Seng =20 Alberto bought up an very interesting point of having technique that = carter for certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers that = where some would be essential and some would be optional, but depending what = get drops, the quality of the media would varies. I think instead of creating a 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve = the same effect with a linear bitmap. What is more important in the protocol = is to identify which piece is essential and which piece is optional. Or = more generically, a scalar priority number of each piece, in such a way that = the app can then make decision which they would pick to when they have = resource constraint. For example, one could discard video and prioritize audio (or vice = verse). (The other challenge is how to sync up video and voice if when that = happens but thats an app problem).=20 -James Seng 2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela Dear all,=20 I don't know if media synchronization is out of the scope of PPSP. = However, in this sense, I would like to ask you if media synchronization can be included in PPSP standardization. I think that this issue can be very interesting when proposing PPSP Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exchange data = taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structure shown in : http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02 Which corresponds to the following representation: +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bitstream") transmission. What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM representation. Thanks to this, the application can specify multiple-related flows. This = can be easily seen when applying source coding techniques such as MDC = (Multiple Description Coding) or SVC (Scalable Video Coding), where media is = composed of several layers. However, the same happens when we want to transmit multimedia contents, for instance, video and audio independently (not contained or multiplexed in a single stream such as when using MPEG-TS). Thus, the BM can be represented as follows: +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ . . . +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer N | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers of the same bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are using video = and audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and Layer 2 to audio. = The BM now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis represents the Chunk ID = (the same way as the original proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and the Y-axis denotes the layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks to = a specific stream). This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of the application in = an easy manner by means of PPSP. BR, --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela=20 Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela --Boundary_(ID_WpBjNY11WF8nJi97d+92bQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
 
Priority is a good idea. When I think about priority, I find = there are=20 two aspects.
On one hand, the requesting peer should know what is essential = to itself=20 and identify the essential pieces in the request messages so that these = pieces=20 can be transmitted earlier and, if applicable, guaranteed. For=20 example,  when switching channel , the first pieces are = essential to=20 the delay of switching, so these pieces should be given high priority in = the=20 request messages.
 
On the other hand, buffer map provided by responsive peers = or torrent file provided by the seeds should show the priority = of=20 pieces or chunks, so that the requesting peers can make a decision which = pieces=20 or chunks should be obtained first when there is a network=20 jam.
 
 

Regards

Yingjie Gu

 

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of James = Seng
Sent:=20 Friday, November 20, 2009 10:28 PM
To: Alberto Jos=E9 = Gonz=E1lez=20 Cela
Cc: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP = Peer=20 Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media = synch

Preciesly. The priority would also help in network = management,=20 assisting in network that has certain constraint to "drop" pieces, if = need to=20 be. I don't like network meddling in my data in general but one of the = original intention of PPSP is to help network admin to = manage/cache/prioritize=20 P2P traffic while providing the as much quality as it can within = resource=20 constraint.

-James Seng

2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela = <albertojgc@gmail.com><= BR>
I=20 agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to scalar = priority,=20 do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that sense, layers can = have a=20 priority order. However, the application can apply the priority as = it=20 desires (if it already knows what kind of media is going to be = distributed=20 and which features it has). 

BR,

Alberto.

Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT=20 Foundation

2009/11/20 James Seng <james@seng.sg>

Alberto=20 bought up an very interesting point of having technique that = carter for=20 certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers that = where some=20 would be essential and some would be optional, but depending what = get=20 drops, the quality of the media would varies.

I think = instead of=20 creating a 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve the same effect = with a=20 linear bitmap. What is more important in the protocol is to = identify which=20 piece is essential and which piece is optional. Or more = generically, a=20 scalar priority number of each piece, in such a way that the app = can then=20 make decision which they would pick to when they have resource=20 constraint.

For example, one could discard video and = prioritize=20 audio (or vice verse). (The other challenge is how to sync up = video and=20 voice if when that happens but thats an app problem). =

-James=20 Seng

2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela = <albertojgc@gmail.com>
Dear=20 all,

I don't know if media synchronization is out of the scope = of PPSP.=20 However, in this sense, I would like to ask you if media = synchronization=20 can be included in PPSP standardization.

I think that this issue can be very interesting when = proposing PPSP=20 Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to = exchange data=20 taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the = structure shown=20 in :

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02

Which corresponds to the following representation:
 =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single = bitstream")=20 transmission.

What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM=20 representation. Thanks to this, the application can specify=20 multiple-related flows. This can be easily seen when applying = source=20 coding techniques such as MDC (Multiple Description Coding) or = SVC=20 (Scalable Video Coding), where media is composed of several = layers.=20 However, the same happens when we want to transmit multimedia = contents,=20 for instance, video and audio independently (not contained or=20 multiplexed in a single stream such as when using = MPEG-TS).

Thus, the BM can be represented as follows:

        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

.
.
.
         =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer N  | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+



Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality = layers of the=20 same bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are = using=20 video and audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and = Layer 2=20 to audio. The BM now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis=20 represents the Chunk ID (the same way as the original proposal, = allowing=20 temporal ordering), and the Y-axis denotes the layer where a = Chunk=20 belongs to (associates chunks to a specific stream).

This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of the=20 application in an easy manner by means of PPSP.

BR,

-- =
Alberto Jose=20 Gonzalez Cela
Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT=20 = Foundation


__________________________= _____________________
ppsp=20 mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp




--
Alberto Jose Gonzalez=20 = Cela


= --Boundary_(ID_WpBjNY11WF8nJi97d+92bQ)-- From albertojgc@gmail.com Thu Nov 26 05:03:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79993A69EC for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 05:03:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.717 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.717 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.093, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KslnHtMUoDrr for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 05:03:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f223.google.com (mail-bw0-f223.google.com [209.85.218.223]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41713A68E4 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 05:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz23 with SMTP id 23so534268bwz.29 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 05:03:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=a9R84Y11p3oL35bKT6zN3tXKxNuPagpI5UkD0mq+rcI=; b=ETXC9cxQDOJXqB9i0ig8/jDcP1AumldddOettMWIfYQY3HeHBRfp85ur2E4Pfj0Y1Y gAlhOD5G1tcynpnAZ8KZaq+PVscY2e/lfKW7cHfLLu2/I+cunryxxvhaEpI+xBAfTPuA 6mjbpZIUrwxf0UtLGjQ5tgb43KFqpp0Ra2r4o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=ucoMEO75V/9f993P+1gQr5AsRZxfnTIayhHKQQZPzSGra/EsVzO3CPyvIC3urfizqB u8ckgKlkwaM8NsgmZsFRgmWEE8Xhpg/ZvlH4sWrt/xGEmvF+KdZtyYZJQS8wpuV45OgP 78JLl2tMpQcTmZQy2N1Z7pZVRkhgXn9bLJZVs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.24.71 with SMTP id u7mr1203274bkb.35.1259240611957; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 05:03:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <016201ca6e4d$b8756940$400ca40a@china.huawei.com> References: <558a39a60911200628m7f762cachd2992c1240e0085b@mail.gmail.com> <016201ca6e4d$b8756940$400ca40a@china.huawei.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:03:31 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: "Y.J. Gu" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000325554fda5ccdb4047945cdbb Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media synch X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:03:44 -0000 --000325554fda5ccdb4047945cdbb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with giving priority to layers. Regarding to the first aspect pointed out by Yingjie, there is no need to specify a priority because the requesting peer makes this decision into its scheduler (for instance requesting the chunks with lower ID in order to obtain them first). So, here we only need to know the sequence ID of each chunk. I think priority should be given to layers, for instance, prioritizing vide= o over audio (or vice versa) or layer 1 (low quality, CIF resolution) over layer N (high quality, HD resolution). This can be done when writing the schedulers of each application. However, in my opinion, the key issue here is to allow the protocol to specify different layers (by specifying a layer ID). In this way, the application can decide which chunks of each layer to order and in what order. According to this, it can be used the 2 dimensional Buffer Map (BM) or a linear Buffer Map, which concatenates the rows of the 2 dimensional BM. Alberto Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation 2009/11/26 Y.J. Gu > > Priority is a good idea. When I think about priority, I find there are tw= o > aspects. > On one hand, the requesting peer should know what is essential to itself > and identify the essential pieces in the request messages so that these > pieces can be transmitted earlier and, if applicable, guaranteed. For > example, when switching channel , the first pieces are essential to the > delay of switching, so these pieces should be given high priority in the > request messages. > > On the other hand, buffer map provided by responsive peers or torrent fil= e > provided by the seeds should show the priority of pieces or chunks, so th= at > the requesting peers can make a decision which pieces or chunks should be > obtained first when there is a network jam. > > > > Regards > > Yingjie Gu > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf O= f > *James Seng > *Sent:* Friday, November 20, 2009 10:28 PM > > *To:* Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela > *Cc:* ppsp@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission an= d > media synch > > Preciesly. The priority would also help in network management, assisting = in > network that has certain constraint to "drop" pieces, if need to be. I do= n't > like network meddling in my data in general but one of the original > intention of PPSP is to help network admin to manage/cache/prioritize P2P > traffic while providing the as much quality as it can within resource > constraint. > > -James Seng > > 2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela > >> I agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to scalar >> priority, do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that sense, layers c= an >> have a priority order. However, the application can apply the priority a= s it >> desires (if it already knows what kind of media is going to be distribut= ed >> and which features it has). >> >> BR, >> >> Alberto. >> >> Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >> >> 2009/11/20 James Seng >> >> Alberto bought up an very interesting point of having technique that >>> carter for certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers t= hat >>> where some would be essential and some would be optional, but depending= what >>> get drops, the quality of the media would varies. >>> >>> I think instead of creating a 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve t= he >>> same effect with a linear bitmap. What is more important in the protoco= l is >>> to identify which piece is essential and which piece is optional. Or mo= re >>> generically, a scalar priority number of each piece, in such a way that= the >>> app can then make decision which they would pick to when they have reso= urce >>> constraint. >>> >>> For example, one could discard video and prioritize audio (or vice >>> verse). (The other challenge is how to sync up video and voice if when = that >>> happens but thats an app problem). >>> >>> -James Seng >>> >>> 2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> I don't know if media synchronization is out of the scope of PPSP. >>>> However, in this sense, I would like to ask you if media synchronizati= on can >>>> be included in PPSP standardization. >>>> >>>> I think that this issue can be very interesting when proposing PPSP Pe= er >>>> Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exchange data ta= king >>>> advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structure shown in : >>>> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02 >>>> >>>> Which corresponds to the following representation: >>>> >>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>> | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>> >>>> >>>> This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bitstream") >>>> transmission. >>>> >>>> What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM representation= . >>>> Thanks to this, the application can specify multiple-related flows. Th= is can >>>> be easily seen when applying source coding techniques such as MDC (Mul= tiple >>>> Description Coding) or SVC (Scalable Video Coding), where media is com= posed >>>> of several layers. However, the same happens when we want to transmit >>>> multimedia contents, for instance, video and audio independently (not >>>> contained or multiplexed in a single stream such as when using MPEG-TS= ). >>>> >>>> Thus, the BM can be represented as follows: >>>> >>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>> Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>> >>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>> Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>> >>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>> Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>> >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>> Layer N | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers of the sa= me >>>> bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are using video= and >>>> audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and Layer 2 to audio= . The >>>> BM now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis represents the Chunk ID (= the >>>> same way as the original proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and th= e >>>> Y-axis denotes the layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks t= o a >>>> specific stream). >>>> >>>> This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of the application = in >>>> an easy manner by means of PPSP. >>>> >>>> BR, >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >>>> Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ppsp mailing list >>>> ppsp@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >> >> > --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela --000325554fda5ccdb4047945cdbb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with giving priority to layers.=A0

Regarding to = the first aspect pointed out by=A0Yingjie, there is no need to specify a= priority because the requesting peer makes this decision into its schedule= r (for instance requesting the chunks with lower ID in order to obtain them= first). So, here we only need to know the sequence ID of each chunk.

I think priority should be given to layers, for instanc= e, prioritizing video over audio (or vice versa) or layer 1 (low quality, C= IF resolution) over layer N (high quality, HD resolution). This can be done= when writing the schedulers of each application. However, in my opinion, t= he key issue here is to allow the protocol to specify different layers (by = specifying a layer ID).=A0In this way, the application = can decide which chunks of each layer to order and in what order.
According to this, it can be used the 2= dimensional Buffer Map (BM) or a linear Buffer Map, which concatenates the= rows of the 2 dimensional BM.

<= /font>
= Alberto
Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / = i2CAT Foundation


=A0


2009/11/26 Y.J. Gu <= ;guyingjie@huawei= .com>
=A0
Pr= iority is a good idea. When I think about priority, I find there are=20 two aspects.
On= one hand, the requesting peer should know what is essential to itself=20 and identify the essential pieces in the request messages so that these pie= ces=20 can be transmitted earlier and, if applicable,=A0guaranteed. For=20 example,=A0=A0when switching channel , the first pieces are essential to=20 the delay of switching, so these pieces should be given high priority in th= e=20 request messages.
=A0
On= the other hand, buffer map=A0provided by responsive peers=20 or=A0torrent file provided by the seeds=A0should show the priority of=20 pieces or chunks, so that the requesting peers can make a decision which pi= eces=20 or chunks should be obtained first when there is a network=20 jam.
=A0
=A0

Regards

Yingjie Gu
=A0

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of James Seng
Sent:=20 Friday, November 20, 2009 10:28 PM

To: Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz= =E1lez=20 Cela
Cc: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer=20 Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media synch
Preciesly. The priority would also help in network management,= =20 assisting in network that has certain constraint to "drop" piec= es, if need to=20 be. I don't like network meddling in my data in general but one of th= e=20 original intention of PPSP is to help network admin to manage/cache/prior= itize=20 P2P traffic while providing the as much quality as it can within resource= =20 constraint.

-James Seng

2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela <albertojgc@gmail.com>
I=20 agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to scalar priori= ty,=20 do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that sense, layers = can have a=20 priority order. However, the application can apply the priority as it= =20 desires (if it already knows what kind of media is going to be distribu= ted=20 and which features it has).=A0

BR,

Alberto.

Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT=20 Foundation

2009/11/20 James Seng <= james@seng.sg>

Alberto=20 bought up an very interesting point of having technique that carter f= or=20 certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers that where= some=20 would be essential and some would be optional, but depending what get= =20 drops, the quality of the media would varies.

I think instead = of=20 creating a 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve the same effect wi= th a=20 linear bitmap. What is more important in the protocol is to identify = which=20 piece is essential and which piece is optional. Or more generically, = a=20 scalar priority number of each piece, in such a way that the app can = then=20 make decision which they would pick to when they have resource=20 constraint.

For example, one could discard video and prioritiz= e=20 audio (or vice verse). (The other challenge is how to sync up video a= nd=20 voice if when that happens but thats an app problem).

-James= =20 Seng

2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela = <albertojgc@gmail.com>
Dear=20 all,

I don't know if media synchronization is out of the scope = of PPSP.=20 However, in this sense, I would like to ask you if media synchroniz= ation=20 can be included in PPSP standardization.

I think that this issue can be very interesting when proposing= PPSP=20 Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exchange= data=20 taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structure = shown=20 in :


Which corresponds to the following representation:
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bit= stream")=20 transmission.

What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM=20 representation. Thanks to this, the application can specify=20 multiple-related flows. This can be easily seen when applying sourc= e=20 coding techniques such as MDC (Multiple Description Coding) or SVC= =20 (Scalable Video Coding), where media is composed of several layers.= =20 However, the same happens when we want to transmit multimedia conte= nts,=20 for instance, video and audio independently (not contained or=20 multiplexed in a single stream such as when using MPEG-TS).

Thus, the BM can be represented as follows:

        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

.
.
.
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer N  | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+


=
Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers o= f the=20 same bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are usi= ng=20 video and audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and Lay= er 2=20 to audio.=A0The BM now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis=20 represents the Chunk ID (the same way as the original proposal, all= owing=20 temporal ordering), and the Y-axis denotes the layer where a Chunk= =20 belongs to (associates chunks to a specific stream).

This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of the=20 application in an easy manner by means of PPSP.

BR,

--
Alber= to Jose=20 Gonzalez Cela
Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT=20 Foundation


____________________= ___________________________
ppsp=20 mailing list
= ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp





--
A= lberto Jose Gonzalez=20 Cela





--
Alberto Jose Gonzalez C= ela

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Gu" References: <558a39a60911200628m7f762cachd2992c1240e0085b@mail.gmail.com><016201ca6e4d$b8756940$400ca40a@china.huawei.com> Message-ID: <200911270956517348848@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-27 10:04:28, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-27 09:57:09, Serialize complete at 2009-11-27 09:57:09 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon773281447255_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmissionandmedia synch X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 01:57:17 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. 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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.686, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oTNLDxVK5dMt for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 18:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B75BD3A67DD for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 18:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.0.154]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2009112710194512-3172 ; Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:19:45 +0800 Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:12:08 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-ID: <200911271012084689269@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-27 10:19:45, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2009-11-27 10:12:16, Serialize complete at 2009-11-27 10:12:16 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon766785735061_=====" Subject: [ppsp] charter discussion X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 02:12:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon766785735061_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Dear all, According to the consensus in IETF 76 PPSP BOF, it's necessary to update the charter with the comments received both in the mailing list and in the meeting into consideration. Any modification suggestion on the charter is high appreciated. If there are more comments for the charter, please let us know so that we can make it better. BR Yunfei zhangyunfei 2009-11-27 --=====003_Dragon766785735061_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312"
Dear all,
   According to the consensus in IETF 76 PPSP BOF, it's necessary to update the charter with the comments received both in the mailing list and in the meeting into consideration.
   Any modification suggestion on the charter is high appreciated. If there are more comments for the charter, please let us know so that we can make it better.
 
BR
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
2009-11-27
 --=====003_Dragon766785735061_=====-- From guyingjie@huawei.com Thu Nov 26 21:07:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B12B3A67EB for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:07:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.872 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.872 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.629, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AE6Ti6MupeSp for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:07:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9543A67A3 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:07:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KTR004PU4W22V@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:07:14 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KTR00I754W1NG@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:07:13 +0800 (CST) Received: from g00107907 ([10.164.12.64]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KTR007MQ4W1B3@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:07:13 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:07:12 +0800 From: "Y.J. Gu" In-reply-to: To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?'Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela'?= Message-id: <001601ca6f1f$7b25bae0$400ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_XmSWCK3gol56cWSJAuVvmg)" Thread-index: AcpumOFzHUweitLOSgyEpqOd732DQAAd9UUA Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and mediasynch X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 05:07:35 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_XmSWCK3gol56cWSJAuVvmg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =20 Yes, the requesting peer can identify the important chunks and ask for = them first. And they also need to sign the priority in the messages so that = the intermedia peers(in DHT), the trackers(in tracker-based) or the = responsive peers could be aware that these messages/chunks are important and should = be deal first. Besides key chunks, high priority should also be given to "maintenance" messages, e.g. "route table maintenance message" in DHT when a peer is = going to leave and need to transfer its route table to neighbors, which is = crucial to the stability of the overlay. These messages should be recoganized = and deal with priority. =20 Layers also need priority as you said. And as premise, the peers need to have a plenty of knowledge of the encodidng specification, e.g. layers = and key chunks, of the target content. These can be described in the torrent file. =20 =20 Regards Yingjie Gu =20 _____ =20 From: Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela [mailto:albertojgc@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:04 PM To: Y.J. Gu Cc: James Seng; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and mediasynch I agree with giving priority to layers. =20 Regarding to the first aspect pointed out by Yingjie, there is no need = to specify a priority because the requesting peer makes this decision into = its scheduler (for instance requesting the chunks with lower ID in order to obtain them first). So, here we only need to know the sequence ID of = each chunk. I think priority should be given to layers, for instance, prioritizing = video over audio (or vice versa) or layer 1 (low quality, CIF resolution) over layer N (high quality, HD resolution). This can be done when writing the schedulers of each application. However, in my opinion, the key issue = here is to allow the protocol to specify different layers (by specifying a = layer ID). In this way, the application can decide which chunks of each layer = to order and in what order. According to this, it can be used the 2 dimensional Buffer Map (BM) or a linear Buffer Map, which concatenates the rows of the 2 dimensional BM. Alberto Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation =20 2009/11/26 Y.J. Gu =20 Priority is a good idea. When I think about priority, I find there are = two aspects. On one hand, the requesting peer should know what is essential to itself = and identify the essential pieces in the request messages so that these = pieces can be transmitted earlier and, if applicable, guaranteed. For example, when switching channel , the first pieces are essential to the delay of switching, so these pieces should be given high priority in the request messages. =20 On the other hand, buffer map provided by responsive peers or torrent = file provided by the seeds should show the priority of pieces or chunks, so = that the requesting peers can make a decision which pieces or chunks should = be obtained first when there is a network jam. =20 =20 Regards Yingjie Gu =20 _____ =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of James Seng Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 10:28 PM=20 To: Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media synch Preciesly. The priority would also help in network management, assisting = in network that has certain constraint to "drop" pieces, if need to be. I = don't like network meddling in my data in general but one of the original intention of PPSP is to help network admin to manage/cache/prioritize = P2P traffic while providing the as much quality as it can within resource constraint. -James Seng 2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela I agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to scalar = priority, do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that sense, layers can have a priority order. However, the application can apply the priority as it desires (if it already knows what kind of media is going to be = distributed and which features it has). =20 BR, Alberto. Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation 2009/11/20 James Seng =20 Alberto bought up an very interesting point of having technique that = carter for certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers that = where some would be essential and some would be optional, but depending what = get drops, the quality of the media would varies. I think instead of creating a 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve = the same effect with a linear bitmap. What is more important in the protocol = is to identify which piece is essential and which piece is optional. Or = more generically, a scalar priority number of each piece, in such a way that = the app can then make decision which they would pick to when they have = resource constraint. For example, one could discard video and prioritize audio (or vice = verse). (The other challenge is how to sync up video and voice if when that = happens but thats an app problem).=20 -James Seng 2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela Dear all,=20 I don't know if media synchronization is out of the scope of PPSP. = However, in this sense, I would like to ask you if media synchronization can be included in PPSP standardization. I think that this issue can be very interesting when proposing PPSP Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exchange data = taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structure shown in : http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02 Which corresponds to the following representation: +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bitstream") transmission. What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM representation. Thanks to this, the application can specify multiple-related flows. This = can be easily seen when applying source coding techniques such as MDC = (Multiple Description Coding) or SVC (Scalable Video Coding), where media is = composed of several layers. However, the same happens when we want to transmit multimedia contents, for instance, video and audio independently (not contained or multiplexed in a single stream such as when using MPEG-TS). Thus, the BM can be represented as follows: +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ . . . +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Layer N | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers of the same bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are using video = and audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and Layer 2 to audio. = The BM now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis represents the Chunk ID = (the same way as the original proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and the Y-axis denotes the layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks to = a specific stream). This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of the application in = an easy manner by means of PPSP. BR, --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela=20 Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela --Boundary_(ID_XmSWCK3gol56cWSJAuVvmg) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
 
Yes, the requesting peer can identify the = important chunks=20 and ask for them first. And they also need to sign the priority in the = messages=20 so that the intermedia peers(in DHT), the trackers(in tracker-based) or=20 the responsive peers could be aware that = these messages/chunks=20 are important and should be deal first.
Besides key chunks, high priority should also be given to = "maintenance"=20 messages, e.g. "route table maintenance message" in DHT when a peer is = going to=20 leave and need to transfer its route table to neighbors, which is = crucial to the=20 stability of the overlay. These messages should be recoganized and deal = with=20 priority.
 
Layers also need priority as you said. And as premise, the = peers need to=20 have a plenty of  knowledge of the encodidng specification, e.g. = layers and=20 key chunks, of the target content. These can be described in the torrent = file.
 
 

Regards

Yingjie Gu

 

From: Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez = Cela=20 [mailto:albertojgc@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 26, = 2009=20 9:04 PM
To: Y.J. Gu
Cc: James Seng;=20 ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - = Multiple=20 Media Transmission and mediasynch

I agree with giving priority to layers. 

Regarding to the first aspect pointed out by Yingjie,=20 there is no need to specify a priority because the requesting peer = makes this=20 decision into its scheduler (for instance requesting the chunks with = lower ID=20 in order to obtain them first). So, here we only need to know the = sequence ID=20 of each chunk.

I think priority should be given to layers, for instance, = prioritizing=20 video over audio (or vice versa) or layer 1 (low quality, CIF = resolution) over=20 layer N (high quality, HD resolution). This can be done when writing = the=20 schedulers of each application. However, in my opinion, the key issue = here is=20 to allow the protocol to specify different layers (by specifying a = layer=20 ID). In this = way, the=20 application can decide which chunks of each layer to order and in what = order.
According=20 to this, it can be used the 2 dimensional Buffer Map (BM) or a linear = Buffer=20 Map, which concatenates the rows of the 2 dimensional BM.

Alberto
Universitat=20 Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation


 


2009/11/26 Y.J. Gu <guyingjie@huawei.com>
 
Priority is a good=20 idea. When I think about priority, I find there are two=20 aspects.
On = one hand, the=20 requesting peer should know what is essential to itself and identify = the=20 essential pieces in the request messages so that these pieces can be = transmitted earlier and, if applicable, guaranteed. For=20 example,  when switching channel , the first pieces are = essential=20 to the delay of switching, so these pieces should be given high = priority in=20 the request messages.
 
On = the other hand,=20 buffer map provided by responsive peers or torrent file = provided=20 by the seeds should show the priority of pieces or chunks, so = that the=20 requesting peers can make a decision which pieces or chunks should = be=20 obtained first when there is a network jam.
 
 

Regards

Yingjie Gu
 

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = James=20 Seng
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 10:28 PM

To: Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela
Cc: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] = PPSP Peer=20 Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media=20 synch

Preciesly. The priority would also help in network = management,=20 assisting in network that has certain constraint to "drop" pieces, = if need=20 to be. I don't like network meddling in my data in general but one = of the=20 original intention of PPSP is to help network admin to=20 manage/cache/prioritize P2P traffic while providing the as much = quality as=20 it can within resource constraint.

-James Seng

2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela = <albertojgc@gmail.com>
I=20 agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to scalar = priority, do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that sense, = layers=20 can have a priority order. However, the application can apply = the=20 priority as it desires (if it already knows what kind of media = is going=20 to be distributed and which features it has). =20

BR,

Alberto.

Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT=20 Foundation

2009/11/20 James Seng <james@seng.sg>=20

Alberto=20 bought up an very interesting point of having technique that = carter=20 for certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers = that=20 where some would be essential and some would be optional, but=20 depending what get drops, the quality of the media would=20 varies.

I think instead of creating a 2 dimensional = bitmap, one=20 could achieve the same effect with a linear bitmap. What is = more=20 important in the protocol is to identify which piece is = essential and=20 which piece is optional. Or more generically, a scalar = priority number=20 of each piece, in such a way that the app can then make = decision which=20 they would pick to when they have resource = constraint.

For=20 example, one could discard video and prioritize audio (or vice = verse).=20 (The other challenge is how to sync up video and voice if when = that=20 happens but thats an app problem).

-James Seng

2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez = Cela <albertojgc@gmail.com>
Dear=20 all,=20

I don't know if media synchronization is out of the = scope of=20 PPSP. However, in this sense, I would like to ask you if = media=20 synchronization can be included in PPSP = standardization.

I think that this issue can be very interesting when = proposing=20 PPSP Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes = to=20 exchange data taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This = BM has=20 the structure shown in :

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02

Which corresponds to the following = representation:
 =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single=20 bitstream") transmission.

What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM = representation. Thanks to this, the application can specify=20 multiple-related flows. This can be easily seen when = applying source=20 coding techniques such as MDC (Multiple Description Coding) = or SVC=20 (Scalable Video Coding), where media is composed of several = layers.=20 However, the same happens when we want to transmit = multimedia=20 contents, for instance, video and audio independently (not = contained=20 or multiplexed in a single stream such as when using = MPEG-TS).

Thus, the BM can be represented as follows:

        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
        =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

.
.
.
         =
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer N  | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+



Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality = layers of=20 the same bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if = we are=20 using video and audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to = video=20 and Layer 2 to audio. The BM now is represented by 2 = dimension.=20 X-axis represents the Chunk ID (the same way as the original = proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and the Y-axis = denotes the=20 layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks to a = specific=20 stream).

This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of = the=20 application in an easy manner by means of PPSP.

BR,

-- =
Alberto=20 Jose Gonzalez Cela=20
Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT=20 = Foundation


__________________________= _____________________
ppsp=20 mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp




--
Alberto Jose Gonzalez=20 = Cela




--
Alberto Jose Gonzalez=20 Cela

--Boundary_(ID_XmSWCK3gol56cWSJAuVvmg)-- From albertojgc@gmail.com Fri Nov 27 06:00:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE2D3A6A48 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2009 06:00:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.315 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.315 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.001, BAYES_40=-0.185, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o8fYTpAcdrQw for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2009 06:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f223.google.com (mail-bw0-f223.google.com [209.85.218.223]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3813A6A5C for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2009 06:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz23 with SMTP id 23so1231738bwz.29 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2009 06:00:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ij2cTiVy3Os0vSDlEO4Ms5XyutgrSD9vPYlkmkApxiQ=; b=eBkD19C52A6T4/maPc2PfRIYjZF+efenPU5gRzEU3Uhy8DEAiVAeWhBP8uTdIu/QSJ nGcXaWtUuzsOw7H3zMrcngF9bL/cmRa3wb6ZiAD+sknX6aa1GSReDVwrOzFvz9Rncxgm DzBonGQsPMdi+dpgOPOO/JA3wFD+KvEAVXloo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=Elghd5bDaldm3jRt8Z5E61syPzd++SaA5Ky//0nh5b9VPLB+N/kH8tgNJRZCfIwpaN in9Lw4hd5e4YLKfv1PbrnJ94L4jC3TpxJ3b/RD+9BioSq3eHw0L9CJfHE2w3B08QmMDS LsB4hDGNEbFiSoya44ggaV0qMO0pBJjvi7rS0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.34.18 with SMTP id j18mr1166891bkd.38.1259330418296; Fri, 27 Nov 2009 06:00:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <001601ca6f1f$7b25bae0$400ca40a@china.huawei.com> References: <001601ca6f1f$7b25bae0$400ca40a@china.huawei.com> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 15:00:18 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: "Y.J. Gu" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555b3923cca2304795ab6d3 Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and mediasynch X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:00:31 -0000 --00032555b3923cca2304795ab6d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with defining layers and key chunks in the torrent file. This will reduce the overhead significantly while allows specifying other important information such as the specification of each layer which can be then used by the schedulers of the peers. In fact, this is a similar solution (in essence) to the one we used in the CoolRuc application. By means of metadata, we specified the kind of media t= o be delivered, for instance: Resource A: SVC base layer: CIF resolution enhancement layer 1: SD resolution enhancement layer 2: HD resolution Resource B: MDC, mpeg2 number of descriptors: 4 descriptor 1: QCIF resolution descriptor 2: QCIF resolution descriptor 3: QCIF resolution descriptor 4: QCIF resolution BR, Alberto. 2009/11/27 Y.J. Gu > > Yes, the requesting peer can identify the important chunks and ask for th= em > first. And they also need to sign the priority in the messages so that th= e > intermedia peers(in DHT), the trackers(in tracker-based) or the responsiv= e > peers could be aware that these messages/chunks are important and should = be > deal first. > Besides key chunks, high priority should also be given to "maintenance" > messages, e.g. "route table maintenance message" in DHT when a peer is go= ing > to leave and need to transfer its route table to neighbors, which is cruc= ial > to the stability of the overlay. These messages should be recoganized and > deal with priority. > > Layers also need priority as you said. And as premise, the peers need to > have a plenty of knowledge of the encodidng specification, e.g. layers a= nd > key chunks, of the target content. These can be described in the torrent > file. > > > > Regards > > Yingjie Gu > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela [mailto:albertojgc@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:04 PM > *To:* Y.J. Gu > *Cc:* James Seng; ppsp@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission an= d > mediasynch > > I agree with giving priority to layers. > > Regarding to the first aspect pointed out by Yingjie, there is no need to > specify a priority because the requesting peer makes this decision into i= ts > scheduler (for instance requesting the chunks with lower ID in order to > obtain them first). So, here we only need to know the sequence ID of each > chunk. > > I think priority should be given to layers, for instance, prioritizing > video over audio (or vice versa) or layer 1 (low quality, CIF resolution) > over layer N (high quality, HD resolution). This can be done when writing > the schedulers of each application. However, in my opinion, the key issue > here is to allow the protocol to specify different layers (by specifying = a > layer ID). In this way, the application can decide which chunks of each > layer to order and in what order. > According to this, it can be used the 2 dimensional Buffer Map (BM) or a > linear Buffer Map, which concatenates the rows of the 2 dimensional BM. > > Alberto > Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation > > > > > > 2009/11/26 Y.J. Gu > >> >> Priority is a good idea. When I think about priority, I find there are t= wo >> aspects. >> On one hand, the requesting peer should know what is essential to itself >> and identify the essential pieces in the request messages so that these >> pieces can be transmitted earlier and, if applicable, guaranteed. For >> example, when switching channel , the first pieces are essential to the >> delay of switching, so these pieces should be given high priority in the >> request messages. >> >> On the other hand, buffer map provided by responsive peers or torrent fi= le >> provided by the seeds should show the priority of pieces or chunks, so t= hat >> the requesting peers can make a decision which pieces or chunks should b= e >> obtained first when there is a network jam. >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> Yingjie Gu >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf >> Of *James Seng >> *Sent:* Friday, November 20, 2009 10:28 PM >> >> *To:* Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela >> *Cc:* ppsp@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission >> and media synch >> >> Preciesly. The priority would also help in network management, >> assisting in network that has certain constraint to "drop" pieces, if ne= ed >> to be. I don't like network meddling in my data in general but one of th= e >> original intention of PPSP is to help network admin to >> manage/cache/prioritize P2P traffic while providing the as much quality = as >> it can within resource constraint. >> >> -James Seng >> >> 2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela >> >>> I agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to scalar >>> priority, do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that sense, layers = can >>> have a priority order. However, the application can apply the priority = as it >>> desires (if it already knows what kind of media is going to be distribu= ted >>> and which features it has). >>> >>> BR, >>> >>> Alberto. >>> >>> Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >>> >>> 2009/11/20 James Seng >>> >>> Alberto bought up an very interesting point of having technique that >>>> carter for certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers = that >>>> where some would be essential and some would be optional, but dependin= g what >>>> get drops, the quality of the media would varies. >>>> >>>> I think instead of creating a 2 dimensional bitmap, one could achieve >>>> the same effect with a linear bitmap. What is more important in the pr= otocol >>>> is to identify which piece is essential and which piece is optional. O= r more >>>> generically, a scalar priority number of each piece, in such a way tha= t the >>>> app can then make decision which they would pick to when they have res= ource >>>> constraint. >>>> >>>> For example, one could discard video and prioritize audio (or vice >>>> verse). (The other challenge is how to sync up video and voice if when= that >>>> happens but thats an app problem). >>>> >>>> -James Seng >>>> >>>> 2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela >>>> >>>>> Dear all, >>>>> >>>>> I don't know if media synchronization is out of the scope of PPSP. >>>>> However, in this sense, I would like to ask you if media synchronizat= ion can >>>>> be included in PPSP standardization. >>>>> >>>>> I think that this issue can be very interesting when proposing PPSP >>>>> Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to exchange d= ata >>>>> taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM has the structure sh= own in >>>>> : >>>>> >>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zong-ppsp-reqs-02 >>>>> >>>>> Which corresponds to the following representation: >>>>> >>>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>>> | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single bitstream") >>>>> transmission. >>>>> >>>>> What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM representatio= n. >>>>> Thanks to this, the application can specify multiple-related flows. T= his can >>>>> be easily seen when applying source coding techniques such as MDC (Mu= ltiple >>>>> Description Coding) or SVC (Scalable Video Coding), where media is co= mposed >>>>> of several layers. However, the same happens when we want to transmit >>>>> multimedia contents, for instance, video and audio independently (not >>>>> contained or multiplexed in a single stream such as when using MPEG-T= S). >>>>> >>>>> Thus, the BM can be represented as follows: >>>>> >>>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>>> Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>>> >>>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>>> Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>>> >>>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>>> Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>>> Layer N | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | >>>>> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality layers of the >>>>> same bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we are using= video >>>>> and audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to video and Layer 2 to >>>>> audio. The BM now is represented by 2 dimension. X-axis represents th= e Chunk >>>>> ID (the same way as the original proposal, allowing temporal ordering= ), and >>>>> the Y-axis denotes the layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chu= nks to >>>>> a specific stream). >>>>> >>>>> This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of the application >>>>> in an easy manner by means of PPSP. >>>>> >>>>> BR, >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >>>>> Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> ppsp mailing list >>>>> ppsp@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela > > --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela --00032555b3923cca2304795ab6d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with defining layers and key chunks in the torrent file. This will = reduce the overhead significantly while allows specifying other important i= nformation such as the specification of each layer which can be then used b= y the schedulers of the peers.

In fact, this is a similar solution (in essence) to the one = we used in the CoolRuc application. By means of metadata, we specified the = kind of media to be delivered, for instance:

Resou= rce A: SVC=A0
base layer: CIF resolution
enhancement layer 1: SD resolutio= n
enhancement layer 2: HD resolution

Res= ource B: MDC, mpeg2
number of descriptors: 4
descriptor= 1: QCIF resolution
descriptor 2: QCIF resolution
descriptor 3: QCIF resolution<= /div>
descriptor 4: QCIF resolution=A0

BR,
=

Alberto.

2009/= 11/27 Y.J. Gu <guyingjie@huawei.com>
=A0
Ye= s, the=A0requesting peer can=A0identify=A0the important chunks=20 and ask for them first. And they also need to sign the priority in the mess= ages=20 so that the intermedia peers(in DHT), the trackers(in tracker-based) or=20 the=A0responsive peers=A0could be aware that these=A0messages/chunks=20 are important and should be deal first.
Be= sides key chunks, high priority should also be given to "maintenance&q= uot;=20 messages, e.g. "route table maintenance message" in DHT when a pe= er is going to=20 leave and need to transfer its route table to neighbors, which is crucial t= o the=20 stability of the overlay. These messages should be recoganized and deal wit= h=20 priority.
=A0
La= yers also need priority as you said. And as premise, the peers need to=20 have a plenty of =A0knowledge of the encodidng specification, e.g. layers a= nd=20 key chunks, of the target content. These can be described in the torrent=20 file.
=A0
=A0

Regards

Y= ingjie Gu

=A0

From: Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez C= ela=20 [mailto:alberto= jgc@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009=20 9:04 PM
To: Y.J. Gu
Cc: James Seng;=20 ppsp@ietf.org
=

Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer Proto= col - Multiple=20 Media Transmission and mediasynch

I agree with giving priority to layers.=A0

Regarding to the first aspect pointed out by=A0Yingjie,=20 there is no need to specify a priority because the requesting peer makes = this=20 decision into its scheduler (for instance requesting the chunks with lowe= r ID=20 in order to obtain them first). So, here we only need to know the sequenc= e ID=20 of each chunk.

I think priority should be given to layers, for instance, prioritizi= ng=20 video over audio (or vice versa) or layer 1 (low quality, CIF resolution)= over=20 layer N (high quality, HD resolution). This can be done when writing the= =20 schedulers of each application. However, in my opinion, the key issue her= e is=20 to allow the protocol to specify different layers (by specifying a layer= =20 ID).=A0In = this way, the=20 application can decide which chunks of each layer to order and in what=20 order.
According=20 to this, it can be used the 2 dimensional Buffer Map (BM) or a linear Buf= fer=20 Map, which concatenates the rows of the 2 dimensional BM.

Alberto
Universitat=20 Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation


=A0


2009/11/26 Y.J. Gu <guyingjie@huawei.com>
=A0
Priority is a good=20 idea. When I think about priority, I find there are two=20 aspects.
On one hand, the=20 requesting peer should know what is essential to itself and identify th= e=20 essential pieces in the request messages so that these pieces can be=20 transmitted earlier and, if applicable,=A0guaranteed. For=20 example,=A0=A0when switching channel , the first pieces are essential= =20 to the delay of switching, so these pieces should be given high priorit= y in=20 the request messages.
=A0
On the other hand,=20 buffer map=A0provided by responsive peers or=A0torrent file provided=20 by the seeds=A0should show the priority of pieces or chunks, so that th= e=20 requesting peers can make a decision which pieces or chunks should be= =20 obtained first when there is a network jam.
=A0
=A0

Regards<= /span>

Yingjie Gu
=A0

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org= ] On Behalf Of James=20 Seng
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 10:28 PM

To: Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela
Cc: pp= sp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP Peer=20 Protocol - Multiple Media Transmission and media=20 synch

Preciesly. The priority would also help in network managem= ent,=20 assisting in network that has certain constraint to "drop" = pieces, if need=20 to be. I don't like network meddling in my data in general but on= e of the=20 original intention of PPSP is to help network admin to=20 manage/cache/prioritize P2P traffic while providing the as much quali= ty as=20 it can within resource constraint.

-James Seng

2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela = <albertojgc@gmail.com>
I=20 agree with the linear bitmap representation. Regarding to scalar=20 priority, do you mean giving weight to "layers"? In that = sense, layers=20 can have a priority order. However, the application can apply the= =20 priority as it desires (if it already knows what kind of media is g= oing=20 to be distributed and which features it has).=A0=20

BR,

Alberto.

Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT=20 Foundation

2009/11/20 James Seng = <james@seng.sg>= ;=20

Alberto=20 bought up an very interesting point of having technique that cart= er=20 for certain media descriptive. Specifically, SVC allows layers th= at=20 where some would be essential and some would be optional, but=20 depending what get drops, the quality of the media would=20 varies.

I think instead of creating a 2 dimensional bitmap= , one=20 could achieve the same effect with a linear bitmap. What is more= =20 important in the protocol is to identify which piece is essential= and=20 which piece is optional. Or more generically, a scalar priority n= umber=20 of each piece, in such a way that the app can then make decision = which=20 they would pick to when they have resource constraint.

For= =20 example, one could discard video and prioritize audio (or vice ve= rse).=20 (The other challenge is how to sync up video and voice if when th= at=20 happens but thats an app problem).

-James Seng

2009/11/20 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez C= ela <albertojgc@gmail.com>
Dear=20 all,=20

I don't know if media synchronization is out of the sc= ope of=20 PPSP. However, in this sense, I would like to ask you if media= =20 synchronization can be included in PPSP standardization.

I think that this issue can be very interesting when propo= sing=20 PPSP Peer Protocol standardization. Currently, PPSP proposes to= =20 exchange data taking advantage of the Buffer Map (BM). This BM = has=20 the structure shown in :


Which corresponds to the following representation:
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

This BM is designed for a Single Description ("single= =20 bitstream") transmission.

What I propose is to allow using a 2 dimensions (2D) BM=20 representation. Thanks to this, the application can specify=20 multiple-related flows. This can be easily seen when applying s= ource=20 coding techniques such as MDC (Multiple Description Coding) or = SVC=20 (Scalable Video Coding), where media is composed of several lay= ers.=20 However, the same happens when we want to transmit multimedia= =20 contents, for instance, video and audio independently (not cont= ained=20 or multiplexed in a single stream such as when using MPEG-TS).<= /div>

Thus, the BM can be represented as follows:

        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
        +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

.
.
.
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Layer N  | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+


=
Here, Layer 1, 2,.. N can represent different quality laye= rs of=20 the same bitstream (considering MDC or SVC). In addition, if we= are=20 using video and audio separately, Layer 1 can correspond to vid= eo=20 and Layer 2 to audio.=A0The BM now is represented by 2 dimensio= n.=20 X-axis represents the Chunk ID (the same way as the original=20 proposal, allowing temporal ordering), and the Y-axis denotes t= he=20 layer where a Chunk belongs to (associates chunks to a specific= =20 stream).

This can be interesting to extend the capabilities of the= =20 application in an easy manner by means of PPSP.

BR,

--
A= lberto=20 Jose Gonzalez Cela=20
Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT=20 Foundation


________________= _______________________________
ppsp=20 mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp




--
A= lberto Jose Gonzalez=20 Cela





--
Alberto = Jose Gonzalez=20 Cela




--
Alberto Jose Gonzalez C= ela

--00032555b3923cca2304795ab6d3--