From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Thu Feb 3 01:23:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98C43A68D2 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2011 01:23:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.113, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ntyVQQCFkfIW for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2011 01:23:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CF63A68CD for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2011 01:23:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p139QK7k006534 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:26:21 +0100 Received: from demuexc025.nsn-intra.net (demuexc025.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.12]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p139QEod022474; Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:26:20 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc025.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:26:14 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CBC384.6758A6F3" Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:26:13 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <201101311644379687165@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 3 Thread-Index: AcvBI35ahqie2qrWQqCNGnC0Sr3mcgCWhmJQ References: <201101180955204217745@chinamobile.com> <201101181419275009728@chinamobile.com> <201101311644379687165@chinamobile.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext zhangyunfei" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Feb 2011 09:26:14.0970 (UTC) FILETIME=[677F81A0:01CBC384] Subject: Re: [ppsp] Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 3 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 09:23:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBC384.6758A6F3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yunfei, =20 it looks like that the interworking between different streaming = providers will be an important point in this section. Lets assume the following possibilities. =20 Subscriber a of Service Provider A request access to a certain movie M. =20 In case, Service Provider A can deliver M=20 >> no interworking is needed. =20 In case, Service Provider A can not deliver M: =A1=A4 Service Provider A can refuse request and Subscriber a = can contact other Service Providers himself;=20 >>no interworking is needed. =A1=A4 Service Provider A contact other Service Providers o SP A provide Subscriber a the information, that he can get M from = Service Provider C=20 >>Only Interworking between Service Providers needed. o SP A fetch the related content himself and provide it to his = subscriber a afterwards. >>Only Interworking between Service Providers needed. o SP A forward the addresses of available peers to his subscriber a.=20 >>Interworking between Service Providers and Peers are needed. =A1=A4 Service Provider A knows the content of other service = providers, e.g. with direct information from Service Providers or = related Super Peers. o SP A provide Subscriber a the information, that he can get M from = Service Provider C=20 >>Only Interworking between Service Providers needed. o SP A fetch the related content himself and provide it to his = subscriber a afterwards. >>Only Interworking between Service Providers needed. o SP A forward the addresses of available peers to his subscriber a.=20 >>Interworking between Service Providers and Peers are needed. =20 What will be a realistic model, taken into account the different = interests of the contributing service providers? =20 Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 =20 =20 =20 From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]=20 Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 9:45 AM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 3 =20 Hi Christian, Thanks for your review.Please see inline for the reply. =20 BR Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-01-31 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-01-28 18:34:55 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / = Section 3 =20 Comments on section 3 problem statement =20 3.1 ISP=A1=AFs difficulties in deploying P2P caches - Is it really possible, to decide remotely with deep packet inspection, = which stream should be locally cached? And what should be done next to = reduce traffic? In many samll ISPs, P2P cache is widely deployed to reduce traffic. The = deep packet inspection may not be executed remotely but locally (in the = cache nodes). The next step is just caching the identified frequently = visited content in the cache nodes. - An application controlled caching system is much better for this = purpose. It depends. We see many ISP-unfriendly applications where the = application is unaware of the ISP caching systems, let alone the = cooperation. - ISP workload can be reduced as well, using proprietary protocols for = remote control. The argument is not that ISP use proprietary or open protocols for = remote control, but that if the applications use proprietary = communication protocols, the ISP may add more workload for identifying = these P2P streaming applications like many of today's practices. =20 =20 3.2 Open streaming delivery infrastructure - Interaction between different streaming providers is an interesting = topic. The level of cooperation will have influence to the importance = for standards in this area.=20 I agree with you.=20 =20 3.3 Difficulties in mobile and wireless environment - I do not see, how this is problems are related to proprietary vs. = Standardized peer protocols. All this mobile specialities can be taken = into account in proprietary protocols as well. I may don't express my meaning exactly. What I mean is a two step logic. = The first one is that since currently existing proprietary protocols = don't consider the mobile and wireless issue well, we need to design one = protocol suitable for both mobile and fixed environment. The second one = is that consider the fact that proprietary protocols have lots of = drawbacks as stated above, should we design another proprietary new = protocol?Why not an open one? =20 3.4 Terminal physical resource starvation - Limited CPU, storage and memory =A8C Is this still a problem today?=20 Good question. I can update the argument more clearly.One important = thing in P2P applications is that the shared storage and memory size is = very great. For example, in P2P live streaming systems, the shared = memory is some minutes video length,e.g., !M bps*60*2/8=3D15M; and in = P2P VoD streaming, the shared storage is about GB magnitude. This is = even equivalent to many smart phones setting. When several such daemons are envoked in the system, the resource = starvation occurs. =20 In section 3, a lot of arguments are not fitting under the umbrella of =A1=B0 Let=A1=AFs take a look what problems proprietary signalling = brings out for P2P streaming applications.=A1=B1 Okay.I'll update the expression. =20 Let=A1=AFs focus here on the last sentence of this section and provide = more input on this: =A1=B0Standard protocols reduce the complexity of coexisting multiple = closed systems and create possibilities to use one client software = accommodating different systems.=A1=B1 Good suggestion.Thanks. =20 Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBC384.6758A6F3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Yunfei,

 

it looks like that the interworking between different streaming = providers will be an  important point in this = section.

Lets assume the following possibilities.

 

Subscriber a of Service Provider A request access to a certain movie = M.

 

In case, Service Provider A can deliver M

>> no interworking is needed.

 

In case,  Service Provider A can not deliver = M:

=A1=A4         = Service Provider A can refuse request and Subscriber a can = contact other Service Providers himself;
>>no interworking is = needed.

=A1=A4         = Service Provider A contact other Service = Providers

o    SP A provide Subscriber a the = information, that he can get M from Service Provider C
>>Only = Interworking between Service Providers needed.

o    SP A fetch the related content = himself and provide it to his subscriber a afterwards.
>>Only = Interworking between Service Providers needed.

o    SP A forward the addresses of = available peers to his subscriber a.
>>Interworking between = Service Providers and Peers are needed.

=A1=A4         = Service Provider A knows the content of other service = providers, e.g. with direct information from Service Providers or = related Super Peers.

o    SP A provide Subscriber a the = information, that he can get M from Service Provider C
>>Only = Interworking between Service Providers needed.

o    SP A fetch the related content = himself and provide it to his subscriber a afterwards.
>>Only = Interworking between Service Providers needed.

o    SP A forward the addresses of = available peers to his subscriber a.
>>Interworking between = Service Providers and Peers are needed.

 

What will be a realistic model, taken into account the different = interests of the contributing service providers?

 

Best Regards

Christian Schmidt

 

 

 

 

From:= ext = zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
Sent: = Monday, January 31, 2011 9:45 AM
To: Schmidt, = Christian 1. (NSN = - DE/Munich); ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Review: = draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section = 3

 

= Hi Christian,

=     Thanks for your review.Please see inline for the = reply.

 

= BR

= Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-01-31

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, = Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3= =BA = 2011-01-28 18:34:55

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext = zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Review: = draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 3

 

Comments on section 3 problem statement

 

3.1 ISP=A1=AFs difficulties in deploying P2P = caches

- Is it really possible, to decide remotely with deep packet = inspection, which stream should be locally cached? And what should be = done next to reduce traffic?

I= n many samll ISPs, P2P cache is widely deployed to r= educe traffic. The deep packet inspection may not be executed remotely = but locally (in the cache nodes). The next step is just caching the = identified frequently visited content in the cache = nodes.

- An application controlled caching system is much better for this = purpose.

I= t depends. We see many ISP-unfriendly applications w= here the application is unaware of the ISP caching systems, let alone = the cooperation.

- ISP workload can be reduced as well, using proprietary protocols = for remote control.

T= he argument is not that ISP use proprietary or open protocols for remote = control, but that if the applications use proprietary communication = protocols, the ISP may add more workload for identifying these P2P = streaming applications like many of today's = practices.

 

 

3.2 Open streaming delivery infrastructure

- Interaction between different streaming providers is an interesting = topic.  The level of cooperation will have influence to the = importance for  standards in this area.

I= agree with you.

 

3.3 Difficulties in mobile and wireless = environment

= - I do not see, how this is problems are related to proprietary vs. = Standardized peer protocols. All this mobile specialities can be taken = into account in proprietary protocols as well.

I= may don't express my meaning exactly. What I mean is a two step logic. = The first one is that since currently existing proprietary = protocols don't consider the mobile and wireless issue well, we need to = design one protocol suitable for both mobile and fixed = environment. The second one is that consider the fact that proprietary = protocols have lots of drawbacks as stated above, should we design = another proprietary new protocol?Why not an open one?

&= nbsp;

3.4 Terminal physical resource starvation

- Limited CPU, storage and memory =A8C Is this still a problem today? =

G= ood question. I can update the argument more clearly.One = important thing in P2P applications is that = the shared storage and memory size is very great. For = example, in P2P live streaming systems, the shared memory is some = minutes video length,e.g., !M bps*60*2/8=3D15M; and in P2P VoD = streaming, the shared storage is about GB magnitude. This is even = equivalent to many smart phones setting.

W= hen several such daemons are envoked in the system, the resource = starvation occurs.

 

In section 3, a lot of arguments are not fitting under the umbrella = of

=A1=B0 Let=A1=AFs take a look what problems proprietary signalling = brings out for P2P streaming applications.=A1=B1

O= kay.I'll update the expression.

 

Let=A1=AFs focus here on the last sentence of this section and = provide more input on this:

=A1=B0Standard protocols reduce the complexity of coexisting multiple = closed systems and create possibilities to use one client software = accommodating different systems.=A1=B1

G= ood suggestion.Thanks.

 

Best Regards

Christian Schmidt

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CBC384.6758A6F3-- From zongning@huawei.com Thu Feb 10 01:11:49 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF2DF3A6951 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 01:11:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.634 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.634 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pc68E1ekdbUb for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 01:11:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4E53A693B for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 01:11:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LGE00LYT9JO0W@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 17:11:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LGE002LR9JOGH@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 17:11:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316a ([10.138.41.31]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LGE00C5F9JJBB@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 17:11:48 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 17:11:43 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: <667DE8D5-BEA5-4A78-B83D-E1032951EE72@nokia.com> To: 'Lars Eggert' , ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <00a801cbc902$89330190$9b9904b0$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-cn Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: Acu7q83+Mr0ksHRYSTWG87YBS/RoYwNJTC+Q References: <667DE8D5-BEA5-4A78-B83D-E1032951EE72@nokia.com> Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?ILTwuLQ6ICByZXZpZXc6IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtcHBzcC1y?= =?gb2312?b?ZXFzLTAx?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 09:11:50 -0000 Hi, Lars Thank you for the deep review. Please see my response starting with = [ZN]. I'd also like to invite more opinions/suggestions from other authors/contributors as I think some of the issues are still open. = Thanks! -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Lars Eggert =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA1=D4=C224=C8=D5 17:46 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: [ppsp] review: draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-01 Hi, I had some time to give draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-01 a closer read. I did = find quite a number of open issues, see below. High-level comment: We need to make sure that all requirements are captured in the "PPSP.REQ" list of numbered requirements, and that the explanation following each numbered item is purely explanatory. Currently, some of the explanatory text does include additional requirements. [ZN] I will check it through the document. If there are any requirements = in the explanatory text, I will separate them as new requirement items in = the next revision. High-level comment: This document requires a careful editing pass for such things as consistent terminology use, English language issues. Also, there's formatting issues wrt non-ASCII characters. [ZN] Will be corrected in next revision. High-level comment: Some of the editors have been silent on the WG list for one or even two years. The WG may need to discuss if there's a lack-of-energy problem here. INTRODUCTION, paragraph 1: > Intended status: Standards Track The charter milestone for this document is "Informational". [ZN] Will be corrected in next revision. INTRODUCTION, paragraph 11: > Copyright Notice The document has a disclaimer for pre-RFC5378 work, but was first submitted on or after 10 November 2008. Does it really need the disclaimer? Section 4., paragraph 0: > 4.1.3. Other General Requriements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = > 8 Nit: s/Requriements/Requirements/ [ZN] Will be corrected in next revision.=20 Section 1., paragraph 1: > demonstrated by PPlive [WWW.PPLive], PPStream [WWW.PPStream], UUSee Nit: s/PPlive/PPLive/ (pick one way to capitalize it) [ZN] Will be unified as "PPLive" in next revision. Section 1., paragraph 2: > Also some web2.0 streaming applications such as Youtube Nit: s/Youtube/YouTube/ [ZN] Will be corrected in next revision. Section 1., paragraph 3: > [WWW.YouTube], Tudou [WWW.Tudou] are reported to use or are = preparing > to use P2P engine to accelerate its downloading rate and cut down = the > transmission cost. Is there a reference to back this claim up? [ZN] You are right. I will check it with other authors and then add a reference, or change the wording. Section 2., paragraph 5: > Peer list: A list of peer ID which are in a same swarm maintained = by > the PPSP tracker. A peer must fetch the peer list of a swarm from > the tracker to know which peers have the required content. "Must it", really? I agree that this is one way of getting a peer list, but in some deployments it is also possible to get a peer list from other peers or through some non-tracker third party. [ZN] In current charter we don't focus on specific tracker entity, but general tracker function provided with various forms such as = centralized, distributed, or third-party provided. We can explicitly state in next revision that here the tracker refer to tracker function, rather than tracker server. Section 2., paragraph 7: > Usage type: Information used to identify the type of shared = content. > Currently there are two usage types in PPSP: live streaming and = VoD. > PPSP may also be extended to support more usage types, e.g. data > file. "Type of shared content" is not the same as "usage type". Which do you mean? [ZN] Consider your further comments below, I agree that this requirement = of "usage type" for classifying live streaming, VoD, etc is not necessary = for tracker/peer protocols and can be implemented by application level. So I propose to delete this requirement. Other thoughts? Section 4.1.1., paragraph 0: > 4.1.1. Basic Requirements to PPSP Node I think we're missing a high-level requirement that the tracker and peer protocols should be as similar as possible, in terms of design, message formats and flows, etc. Ideally, the peer protocol would be an extension to the tracker protocol that adds a few message types. We do NOT want two completely different protocols here. [ZN] You are right, and in the current design, the tracker and peer protocols are similar. But do we need to make this as a formal = requirement? Section 4.1.1., paragraph 1: > PPSP.REQ-1: Each peer in PPSP MUST has a unique identifier, i.e. = peer > ID. Unique in what scope? Globally? Swarm? Also, English: s/has/have/ [ZN] IMO, it is enough for peer ID to be unique in a swarm. I will explicitly state this in next revision. Other thoughts? Section 4.1.1., paragraph 2: > It's a basic requirement for a peer to be uniquely identified in = the > PPSP overlay that other peers or tracker can refer the ID for the > peer. The term "overlay" is ndefined. Do you mean "swarm"? [ZN] Should be swarm. Section 4.1.1., paragraph 3: > The peer ID may be generated from IP address or SIP URI which > can distinguish this peer with the others. But if IP address is = used > as peer ID, the ID may be unstable as IP address may change while > peer moving. Not sure if we need to discuss here what the options are for choosing peer IDs. If we want to do this, we need to really discuss all the options, some obvious ones are missing (e.g., large random value, etc.) [ZN] Option for choosing peer ID is still a open issue. IMO, consider = the case that IP address may change, unique peer IDs such as those used in RELOAD are preferred in peer/swarm management level, while IP address is = for peer connection. Other thoughts? Section 4.1.1., paragraph 4: > PPSP.REQ-2: The tracker in PPSP MUST have a public identity that = can > be discovered and accessed by PPSP peers. "Public identity" is an undefined term. Do you simple mean "unique ID"? If so, again, unique in what scope? [ZN] The current statement is misleading. The main focus here is = "publicly reachable" rather than "unique ID". In this case, I agree that we don't need requirement for reachability = and then propose to delete this requirement. Other thoughts? Section 4.1.1., paragraph 5: > It requires trackers are reachable with identifiers from Internet = or > other IP network. But how to discover the tracker is not in the > scope of PPSP. I think you're mixing up ID and address here. Also, I don't think we need to require anything about tracker reachability here. Either a peer can reach an identified tracker with whatever connectivity it has, or it can't. Plus, there may be access control or policy in place that may cause a tracker to not respond to a peer even when it is reachable at the IP layer. [ZN] see above. Section 4.1.2., paragraph 1: > PPSP.REQ-3: The data resources shared in PPSP services MUST be > classified and identified by different usage types. If you really mean "usage type" and not "type of content" (see comment on terminology above), I don't know if this makes total sense. Consider for example the case where some peers are watching a live streaming session for a content item. While the live session is still ongoing, other peers may already start watching the same content item as VoD. We surely would like the cached data on peers that got it via live streaming to be available to the peers that started watching a VoD session. That gets really hard if we label content with usage types. Can we not simply leave it up to the peer algorithms that decide which chunks to retrieve to determine how to do this for their usage type for a content item? [ZN] see above. > PPSP is designed for P2P live streaming and VoD. It also has the > potential to be used for P2P data file sharing. These usage types > have different requirements for truck queries and transmission > behaviors, e.g. data downloading order and time constraint. > Therefore, usage types are necessary to guide different content > sharing behaviors. See above, do we really need to segregate this at the information level? Section 4.1.2., paragraph 3: > A swarm refers to a group of peers sharing the same content. It > could be a TV Channel, film name or file name. Swarm ID can be > looked as a resource ID to denote a specific content. The swarm ID > can be used in two cases: 1) a peer requests the tracker for the = peer > list indexed by a swarm ID; 2) a peer tells the tracker about the > swarms it belongs to. To me at least, "swarm ID" means "an ID for a swarm, i.e., a group of peers sharing a content item." Is this requirement saying that we're also going to use the swarm ID to identify the content item? So there'd always be exactly one swarm in the network per content item (and not maybe two disjoint sets of peers)? [ZN] IMO, the content ID and swarm ID should be decoupled and let application level to decide how to generate swarm ID. I propose to change the text to " A swarm refers to a group of peers = sharing the same content. A swarm ID is an ID uniquely identifies a swarm. The = swarm ID can be used in two cases... ...". Other thoughts? Section 4.1.2., paragraph 5: > A key characteristic of P2P streaming system is allowing the data > fetching from different peers concurrently. Therefore, the whole > content must be partitioned into small peaces, called chunks in = PPSP, > for transmission. The chunks must be formed and sorted by a = standard > way, so when a peer says it requires some chunks, e.g. 011, 012 and > 013, other peers could understand which peaces wanted by the peer > exactly. Also, a normative buffer map can be used to show the = chunk > availability of a peer. This doesn't quite capture it. I think what you mean is that the data needs to be chunkable, and that each chunk must have a unique ID (within which context?) I don't think we need to require anything about ordering here other than that peers must be able to determine which chunks IDs to request in order to obtain which part of the content object. (I.e. there's some sort of mapping, but we don't need to care about the details.) Nit: s/peaces/pieces/ [ZN] You are right. The necessary requirement here is that a chunk must = have an unique ID in swarm wise. I propose to change the text to "Each chunk MUST have an unique ID in = the swarm such as the peer understand which pieces are requested. An example = for generating the chunk IDs is the bitmap approach [cite]". Other thoughts? Section 4.1.2., paragraph 7: > So, the availability of each data unit in a peer can be denoted in = a > normative bitmap structure. By exchanging the bitmap, peers in a > swarm can schedule the transmission in the grain of the smallest = data > units. The text in PPSP.REQ-6 and the explanation don't go together. PPSP.REQ-6 says that the content item must have a standards format, which e.g. means that "this data item is an MPEG2 movie". But that is totally unrelated to denoting stuff in the availability bitmap. In fact, you don't even need to know what type the content has, you can chunk and bitmap it as a bytestream. [ZN] The text in PPSP.REQ-6 is misleading. I think the purpose here is = to define bitmap for denoting chunk availability. Consider that PPSP.REQ-5 is the requirement for chunk ID and bitmap is = just one way for identifying chunks, I propose to delete PPSP.REQ-6. Other thoughts? Section 4.1.3., paragraph 0: > 4.1.3. Other General Requriements Nit: s/Requriements/Requirements/ [ZN] Will be corrected in next revision. Section 4.1.3., paragraph 1: > PPSP.REQ-7: The Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol SHOULD enable > peers to receive streaming data within the time constraints = required > by specific content items. Why is this not a MUST? Also, this isn't always possible, simply because of the characteristics of the underlying connectivity. Finally, I think you wand to replace "streaming data" by "content". (Streaming data is just one type of content.) [ZN] IMO, tracker/peer protocols should help achieving the streaming = feature as stated in current PPSP charter. As tools in P2P streaming system, = MUST is too strong for protocols to guarantee the streaming feature. Plus, I think we currently focus on streaming media, rather than all = types of content sharing according to the charter. Other thoughts? Section 4.1.3., paragraph 2: > PPSP.REQ-8: The Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol are Recommended = to > be carried over TCP (or UDP, when delivery requirements cannot be = met > by TCP). I really think we should be simply requiring TCP here and not even talk about UDP. [ZN] I don=A1=AFt quite understand why must TCP? Section 4.2., paragraph 0: > PPSP.REQ-9: The Tracker Protocol is Recommended to support the IP > address change report sent from the peer. The Peer Protocol may > support the IP address change report sent from the peer. I have no idea what this means. If this is about supporting mobile peers, why do we need anything specific to that in the protocol? A peer whose IP address changes simply looks like a leave-and-join to the swarm. [ZN] Yes, this is merged from another draft for mobile P2P case: http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-lu-ppsp-mobile-04.txt IMO, this is helpful to re-connect between peers in a timely manner = since peer may not re-send join message to the tracker even after IP change. = Other thoughts? Section 4.2., paragraph 8: > PPSP.TP.REQ-7: The PPSP tracker MAY generate the peer list with the > help of traffic optimization services, e.g. Alto. Not sure if we need this, since a "MAY"-level statement isn't really a requirement. This would make more sense as a non-requirement in explanatory text. Also, cite ALTO. [ZN] How about change "MAY" to "SHOULD support" - which means = "optionally implement"? Section 4.2., paragraph 9: > PPSP.TP.REQ-8: The peer status report (update) message MAY have the > option to carry streaming status of the peer, including online = time, > link status including available uplink and downlink bandwidth, peer > capability and other streaming parameters of the peer. Therefore, > the tracker is able to select better candidate peers for streaming > without the help of other traffic optimization services. s/streaming//g (not all swarms are for streaming) Section 4.3., paragraph 0: > PPSP.TP.REQ-9: Battery status of the peer SHOULD be reported to the > tracker in the case where the peers are constrained by their = limited > battery (e.g. cellphone), Why? What is the tracker supposed to do with this information? Also, = what metric do you envision to be applied here, mW? 4.3. PPSP Peer = Protocol Requirements [ZN] I think the main scenario is mobile P2P where peers have very = limited power and are not suitable for long-term streaming and the tracker may = only put those peers in limited number of swarms. Section 4.3., paragraph 2: > PPSP.PP.REQ-1: The PPSP peers MUST implement the PPSP peer protocol > to exchange information and negotiate the data chunk requests and > responses before any content is transmitted. Not quite sure what the "before any content is transmitted" bit is about? [ZN] As stated in charter, content transmission itself is not in the = current scope. Chunk request and response are signaling for next-step data transmission. Section 4.3., paragraph 3: > PPSP.PP.REQ-2: The content availability request message MUST allow > the peer to solicit the chunk ID and bitmap information from other > peers with the respect of the peer list received from tracker. Not quite sure what you mean with "with respect to"? [ZN] Sorry for confusion. Should be "... from other peers in the peer = list received from the tracker". Section 4.3., paragraph 8: > Due to the dynamic change of the buffered content in each peer and > the frequent join/leave of peers to the swarm, the content > availability among neighbourhoods are always changing,which = requires > being updated on time. This update should be done at least on > demand, which means when a peer requires finding more peers with > certain chunks, it send a message to all peer in the swarm for > content availability update. This is going too far in describing algorithmic behavior. I'm especially concerned about the "sending to all peers" bit; surely we want to allow peers freedom in determining how far to spread any such requests? [ZN] I agree this is going too far beyond explanatory text. I will = change the wording and of course leave the freedom to peer algorithms. Section 4.3., paragraph 10: > PPSP.PP.REQ-6: The peer streaming status update information MAY be > advertised among peers. s/streaming//g (not all swarms are for streaming) > Streaming status information should be related to the content > delivery, including online time, link status including available > uplink and downlink bandwidth, peer capability and other streaming > parameters of the peer. With this information, a peer can select > more appropriate peers for content sharing based on some content > sharing strategies and/or application requirements. Also, s/streaming//g (not all swarms are for streaming) [ZN] Understand. How about "...link status including available bandwidth = if possible..." or just "...link status including DSL/wifi/etc..."? Other suggestions? Section 4.3., paragraph 11: > PPSP.PP.REQ-7: Battery status of the peer SHOULD be reported to = other > peers in the case where the peers are constrained by their limited > battery (e.g. cellphone), See my battery comment for the tracker protocol. [ZN] See above. Section 4.4., paragraph 1: > PPSP.ERR.REQ-1: A peer MUST be able to respond with error = information > to the peers sending PPSP messages, when some information (e.g. = peer > list, chunk expression) cannot be understood in the message. Why? Dropping such requests silently is much preferred from a DDoS angle. [ZN] I am OK with your suggestion. Other thoughts? Section 4.4., paragraph 4: > PPSP.ERR.REQ-2: A PPSP tracker, which is operating close to its > capacity limit, MUST be able to inform peers about its impending > overload situation, and redirect them to another PPSP tracker. Why? I really don't want to redo the SIP-overload work for PPSP. Let the peers choose to go to another tracker when the one they have chosen is unresponsive. [ZN] I am OK with your suggestion. Other thoughts? Section 4.4., paragraph 5: > PPSP.ERR.REQ-3: A PPSP tracker, which is operating close to its > capacity limit, MUST be able to inform peers about its impending > overload situation, and terminate the conversation with the current > PPSP tracker. See above. Section 4.4., paragraph 6: > PPSP.ERR.REQ-4: A PPSP tracker, which is operating close to its > capacity limit, MUST be able to inform peers about its impending > overload situation, and reject new conversation attempts. See above. Section 5., paragraph 2: > PPSP.SEC.REQ-1: PPSP MUST ensure that only authorized users can > access the original media in the P2P streaming system. This can be > achieved by defining or adopting such mechanisms as user > authentication and/or key management scheme. I think this goes in the right direction, but is phrased in a way that may be too strong. How about "PPSP MUST support closed swarms, where are peers are authenticated." I think this is as much as we can guarantee, because even with closed swarms, the content can leak (think about a hacked peer). [ZN] I am OK with your suggestion. Section 5., paragraph 3: > PPSP.SEC.REQ-2: Confidentiality of the streaming data SHOULD be > supported and the corresponding key management scheme MUST scale = well > without degrading the system performance. s/SHOULD/MUST optionally/ (i.e., it must be implemented but may not be used by all swarms) Section 5., paragraph 5: > PPSP.SEC.REQ-4: PPSP MUST prevent stream pollution attacks. In the > stream pollution attack, the attacker mixes into the stream bogus > chunks, or declare the chunks it doesn't have. Do we need to prevent this attack outright, or is it sufficient to identify it and exclude the offending peer from the swarm (which may be easier)? In other words, do we really need to treat this attack differently than PPSP.SEC.REQ-5? [ZN] I agree that we can merge this into SEC.REQ-5. Section 5., paragraph 8: > PPSP.SEC.REQ-6: PPSP MUST prevent peers from exhausting the P2P > streaming system's available resource, e.g. processing capacity, > bandwidth, etc. How? The Internet as a whole doesn't have this capability, and since we're running on top of it, this seems difficult to achieve. [ZN] Concerning the comments below, I propose to restrict REQ-6 by only explicitly stating prevent DoS attacks. Other thoughts? Section 5., paragraph 9: > Given the prevalence of DoS attacks in the Internet, it is = important > to realize that a similar threat could exist in a large-scale > streaming system where attackers are capable of consuming a lot of > resources with just a small amount of effort. That makes sense, but PPSP.SEC.REQ-6 is phrased much more broadly. Section 5., paragraph 10: > PPSP.SEC.REQ-7: PPSP SHOULD minimize the dependency on reachability > of centralized servers. Unless we're willing to make a statement like "all peers MUST be accessible as if they were trackers", this requirement is basically useless. [ZN] I think it would make more sense if we state in the view of system robustness, i.e. when centralized tracker fails the system SHOULD work = by supporting distributed tracker. Other thoughts? Section 5., paragraph 12: > PPSP.SEC.REQ-9: Security mechanisms of PPSP SHOULD not limit the > scalability, performance and reliability of the P2P streaming = system. Security always introduces an overhead. So it will always limit the scalability and performance compared to using no security. So this isn't really a useful requirement. Also: s/SHOULD not/SHOULD NOT/ [ZN] I propose to delete this REQ-9. Section 8.2., paragraph 7: > [Survey] Zong, N. and X. Jiang, "Survey of P2P Streaming", > IETF PPSP BoF, November 2008. Unused Reference: 'Survey' is defined on line 564, but no explicit reference was found in the text [ZN] Will be corrected in next revision. Section 8.2., paragraph 8: > [ProbSta] Zhang, Y., "Problem Statement of P2P Streaming Protocol > (PPSP)", IETF PPSP BoF, November 2008. Unused Reference: 'ProbSta' is defined on line 567, but no explicit reference was found in the text [ZN] Will be corrected in next revision. Section 8.2., paragraph 9: > [P2PLive] Guo, Y., Liang, C., and Y. Liu, "Adaptive Queue-based > Chunk Scheduling for P2P Live Streaming", IFIP > Networking Proceedings, May 2008. Unused Reference: 'P2PLive' is defined on line 570, but no explicit reference was found in the text [ZN] Will be corrected in next revision. Section 8.2., paragraph 10: > [LiveStream] > Pascual, V., "Live Streaming over P2PSIP", International > SIP Conference 10th Edition, January 2009. Unused Reference: 'LiveStream' is defined on line 574, but no explicit reference was found in the text [ZN] Will be corrected in next revision. Section 8.2., paragraph 11: > [I-D.ietf-p2psip-base] > Jennings, C., Lowekamp, B., Rescorla, E., Baset, S., and > H. Schulzrinne, "REsource LOcation And Discovery = (RELOAD) > Base Protocol", draft-ietf-p2psip-base-01 (work in > progress), December 2008. Unused Reference: 'I-D.ietf-p2psip-base' is defined on line 578, but no explicit reference was found in the text [ZN] Will be corrected in next revision. Section 8.2., paragraph 12: > [PPSPPS] Zhang, Y., Zong, N., Camarillo, G., Seng, J., and R. = Yang, > "PPSP Problem Statement", > draft-zhang-ppsp-problem-statement-05 (work in = progress). This document has been replaced by draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement. [ZN] Will be corrected in next revision. From lars.eggert@nokia.com Thu Feb 10 05:51:48 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008233A69A0 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 05:51:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.452 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.452 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.468, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uOexz9huoF75 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 05:51:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-da01.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [147.243.128.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E833A6997 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 05:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (esdhcp030222.research.nokia.com [172.21.30.222]) by mgw-da01.nokia.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id p1ADpoAq018154 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:51:52 +0200 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.96.5 at fit.nokia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-57--936361154; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <00a801cbc902$89330190$9b9904b0$@com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:51:42 +0200 Message-Id: <09AC6DFD-53DA-4536-BAE8-7E72B0CDCEDB@nokia.com> References: <667DE8D5-BEA5-4A78-B83D-E1032951EE72@nokia.com> <00a801cbc902$89330190$9b9904b0$@com> To: Ning Zong X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.6 (mail.fit.nokia.com); Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:51:47 +0200 (EET) X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgcmV2aWV3OiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLXBwc3AtcmVx?= =?utf-8?q?s-01?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 13:51:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail-57--936361154 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Hi, thanks for responding. I have a few more comments below; I'm cutting all = the text that I think we have a way forward on. On 2011-2-10, at 11:11, Ning Zong wrote: > Section 2., paragraph 5: >> Peer list: A list of peer ID which are in a same swarm maintained = by >> the PPSP tracker. A peer must fetch the peer list of a swarm from >> the tracker to know which peers have the required content. >=20 > "Must it", really? I agree that this is one way of getting a peer > list, but in some deployments it is also possible to get a peer list > from other peers or through some non-tracker third party. >=20 > [ZN] In current charter we don't focus on specific tracker entity, but > general tracker function provided with various forms such as = centralized, > distributed, or third-party provided. > We can explicitly state in next revision that here the tracker refer = to > tracker function, rather than tracker server. What I meant is that the current definition is too narrow. Yes, the = tracker has a peer list. But so do the peers themselves (although it is = likely much less complete than that of the tracker.) But in a system = where peers exchange peer information directly, or there are multiple = trackers, or there is some other way to get peer information, *nobody* = may actually have the definitive list of peers in a swarm - and no one = needs to, since the system still works OK. > Section 4.1.1., paragraph 0: >> 4.1.1. Basic Requirements to PPSP Node >=20 > I think we're missing a high-level requirement that the tracker and > peer protocols should be as similar as possible, in terms of design, > message formats and flows, etc. Ideally, the peer protocol would be = an > extension to the tracker protocol that adds a few message types. We = do > NOT want two completely different protocols here. >=20 > [ZN] You are right, and in the current design, the tracker and peer > protocols are similar. But do we need to make this as a formal = requirement? Why not?=20 > Section 4.1.1., paragraph 3: >> The peer ID may be generated from IP address or SIP URI which >> can distinguish this peer with the others. But if IP address is = used >> as peer ID, the ID may be unstable as IP address may change while >> peer moving. >=20 > Not sure if we need to discuss here what the options are for choosing > peer IDs. If we want to do this, we need to really discuss all the > options, some obvious ones are missing (e.g., large random value, > etc.) >=20 > [ZN] Option for choosing peer ID is still a open issue. IMO, consider = the > case that IP address may change, unique peer IDs such as those used in > RELOAD are preferred in peer/swarm management level, while IP address = is for > peer connection. > Other thoughts? I'd simply cut the text above then. > Section 4.1.3., paragraph 2: >> PPSP.REQ-8: The Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol are Recommended = to >> be carried over TCP (or UDP, when delivery requirements cannot be = met >> by TCP). >=20 > I really think we should be simply requiring TCP here and not even > talk about UDP. >=20 > [ZN] I don=92t quite understand why must TCP? Because building something on top of UDP is difficult; see RFC5405. In which case do you think TCP will not be appropriate? > Section 4.2., paragraph 0: >> PPSP.REQ-9: The Tracker Protocol is Recommended to support the IP >> address change report sent from the peer. The Peer Protocol may >> support the IP address change report sent from the peer. >=20 > I have no idea what this means. If this is about supporting mobile > peers, why do we need anything specific to that in the protocol? A > peer whose IP address changes simply looks like a leave-and-join to > the swarm. >=20 > [ZN] Yes, this is merged from another draft for mobile P2P case: > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-lu-ppsp-mobile-04.txt > IMO, this is helpful to re-connect between peers in a timely manner = since > peer may not re-send join message to the tracker even after IP change. = Other > thoughts? What I'm saying is that a mobility events to the tracker and to other = peers looks exactly like a leave followed by a join. In other words, we = don't need any extra support in the protocol for it. > Section 4.2., paragraph 8: >> PPSP.TP.REQ-7: The PPSP tracker MAY generate the peer list with the >> help of traffic optimization services, e.g. Alto. >=20 > Not sure if we need this, since a "MAY"-level statement isn't really = a > requirement. This would make more sense as a non-requirement in > explanatory text. Also, cite ALTO. >=20 > [ZN] How about change "MAY" to "SHOULD support" - which means = "optionally > implement"? ALTO is a mechanism for *peers* to perform better then random *initial* = peer selection. It's completely unclear if the tracker can even do = something useful with the ALTO information, at least without a lot more = context about the peer. > Section 4.3., paragraph 0: >> PPSP.TP.REQ-9: Battery status of the peer SHOULD be reported to the >> tracker in the case where the peers are constrained by their = limited >> battery (e.g. cellphone), >=20 > Why? What is the tracker supposed to do with this information? Also, = what > metric do you envision to be applied here, mW? 4.3. PPSP Peer = Protocol > Requirements >=20 > [ZN] I think the main scenario is mobile P2P where peers have very = limited > power and are not suitable for long-term streaming and the tracker may = only > put those peers in limited number of swarms. The tracker has *no* influence over what swarms peers join or not join, = and it can't prevent anything. And peers can obviously simply lie about = their battery information. > Section 4.3., paragraph 10: >> Streaming status information should be related to the content >> delivery, including online time, link status including available >> uplink and downlink bandwidth, peer capability and other streaming >> parameters of the peer. With this information, a peer can select >> more appropriate peers for content sharing based on some content >> sharing strategies and/or application requirements. >=20 > bandwidth information here.> Also, s/streaming//g (not all swarms are > for streaming) >=20 > [ZN] Understand. How about "...link status including available = bandwidth if > possible..." or just "...link status including DSL/wifi/etc..."? Other > suggestions? Remove it? 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port 10024) with ESMTP id trgVQfc6HY-8 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 19:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC203A69AD for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 19:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LGF00LWFOV8TW@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 11:40:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LGF00KIQOV8SO@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 11:40:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316a ([10.138.41.31]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LGF00EN7OV3CR@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 11:40:19 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 11:40:15 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: <09AC6DFD-53DA-4536-BAE8-7E72B0CDCEDB@nokia.com> To: 'Lars Eggert' Message-id: <00a201cbc99d$655f1650$301d42f0$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-cn Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcvJKbW7kLmzZe7zSEiwwGnKadTkowAZw9xw References: <667DE8D5-BEA5-4A78-B83D-E1032951EE72@nokia.com> <00a801cbc902$89330190$9b9904b0$@com> <09AC6DFD-53DA-4536-BAE8-7E72B0CDCEDB@nokia.com> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogtPC4tDogIHJldmlldzogZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1w?= =?gb2312?b?cHNwLXJlcXMtMDE=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 03:40:23 -0000 Hi, Lars, Thank you for comments. See inline. -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Lars Eggert [mailto:lars.eggert@nokia.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA2=D4=C210=C8=D5 21:52 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Ning Zong =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [ppsp] review: draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-01 Hi, thanks for responding. I have a few more comments below; I'm cutting all = the text that I think we have a way forward on. On 2011-2-10, at 11:11, Ning Zong wrote: > Section 2., paragraph 5: >> Peer list: A list of peer ID which are in a same swarm maintained = by >> the PPSP tracker. A peer must fetch the peer list of a swarm from >> the tracker to know which peers have the required content. >=20 > "Must it", really? I agree that this is one way of getting a peer > list, but in some deployments it is also possible to get a peer list > from other peers or through some non-tracker third party. >=20 > [ZN] In current charter we don't focus on specific tracker entity, but > general tracker function provided with various forms such as = centralized, > distributed, or third-party provided. > We can explicitly state in next revision that here the tracker refer = to > tracker function, rather than tracker server. What I meant is that the current definition is too narrow. Yes, the = tracker has a peer list. But so do the peers themselves (although it is likely = much less complete than that of the tracker.) But in a system where peers exchange peer information directly, or there are multiple trackers, or = there is some other way to get peer information, *nobody* may actually have = the definitive list of peers in a swarm - and no one needs to, since the = system still works OK. [ZN] I agree that the tracker is not the only part to provide peer list. = In PPSP.PP.REQ-4, it says that peer can also get an extra list of peers = other than those in the list from tracker. And you are right that the statement here is not precise. I propose to change "fetch the peer list of a swarm from the tracker" to "fetch an initial peer list from the tracker or other entity in bootstrapping = stage". > Section 4.1.1., paragraph 0: >> 4.1.1. Basic Requirements to PPSP Node >=20 > I think we're missing a high-level requirement that the tracker and > peer protocols should be as similar as possible, in terms of design, > message formats and flows, etc. Ideally, the peer protocol would be = an > extension to the tracker protocol that adds a few message types. We = do > NOT want two completely different protocols here. >=20 > [ZN] You are right, and in the current design, the tracker and peer > protocols are similar. But do we need to make this as a formal requirement? Why not? [ZN] I am OK to make this a formal requirement. How about other contributors? > Section 4.1.1., paragraph 3: >> The peer ID may be generated from IP address or SIP URI which >> can distinguish this peer with the others. But if IP address is = used >> as peer ID, the ID may be unstable as IP address may change while >> peer moving. >=20 > Not sure if we need to discuss here what the options are for choosing > peer IDs. If we want to do this, we need to really discuss all the > options, some obvious ones are missing (e.g., large random value, > etc.) >=20 > [ZN] Option for choosing peer ID is still a open issue. IMO, consider = the > case that IP address may change, unique peer IDs such as those used in > RELOAD are preferred in peer/swarm management level, while IP address = is for > peer connection. > Other thoughts? I'd simply cut the text above then. [ZN]: I agree. > Section 4.1.3., paragraph 2: >> PPSP.REQ-8: The Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol are Recommended = to >> be carried over TCP (or UDP, when delivery requirements cannot be = met >> by TCP). >=20 > I really think we should be simply requiring TCP here and not even > talk about UDP. >=20 > [ZN] I don=A1=AFt quite understand why must TCP? Because building something on top of UDP is difficult; see RFC5405. In which case do you think TCP will not be appropriate? [ZN] Consider the cases: 1) a large number of connections between peers are only for temporary information exchange (e.g. chunk availability exchange) and won=A1=AFt = persist for data transfer (if the requested peers don=A1=AFt have the requested = chunks). 2) a peer may communicate with a small subset of peers only for a short = term and then frequently change to another small subset of peers (like = PPLive). TCP may introduce more (and possibly unnecessary) overhead. > Section 4.2., paragraph 0: >> PPSP.REQ-9: The Tracker Protocol is Recommended to support the IP >> address change report sent from the peer. The Peer Protocol may >> support the IP address change report sent from the peer. >=20 > I have no idea what this means. If this is about supporting mobile > peers, why do we need anything specific to that in the protocol? A > peer whose IP address changes simply looks like a leave-and-join to > the swarm. >=20 > [ZN] Yes, this is merged from another draft for mobile P2P case: > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-lu-ppsp-mobile-04.txt > IMO, this is helpful to re-connect between peers in a timely manner = since > peer may not re-send join message to the tracker even after IP change. Other > thoughts? What I'm saying is that a mobility events to the tracker and to other = peers looks exactly like a leave followed by a join. In other words, we don't = need any extra support in the protocol for it. [ZN] I agree that we don=A1=AFt need extra message for this. But it = seems that we then need new requirement about when the peer should send join = message - bootstrap, IP address change, etc...? > Section 4.2., paragraph 8: >> PPSP.TP.REQ-7: The PPSP tracker MAY generate the peer list with the >> help of traffic optimization services, e.g. Alto. >=20 > Not sure if we need this, since a "MAY"-level statement isn't really = a > requirement. This would make more sense as a non-requirement in > explanatory text. Also, cite ALTO. >=20 > [ZN] How about change "MAY" to "SHOULD support" - which means = "optionally > implement"? ALTO is a mechanism for *peers* to perform better then random *initial* = peer selection. It's completely unclear if the tracker can even do something useful with the ALTO information, at least without a lot more context = about the peer. [ZN] I think in tracker based P2P system, the tracker can act as the = ALTO client, which receives ALTO information and performs peer selection = (Section 3.1 in draft-ietf-alto-reqs-07.txt). But anyway, I agree that this MAY-level statement should move to non-requirement text. I propose to revise the requirement as "PPSP = system SHOULD support traffic optimization service, e.g. ALTO [cite]". Other thoughts? > Section 4.3., paragraph 0: >> PPSP.TP.REQ-9: Battery status of the peer SHOULD be reported to the >> tracker in the case where the peers are constrained by their = limited >> battery (e.g. cellphone), >=20 > Why? What is the tracker supposed to do with this information? Also, = what > metric do you envision to be applied here, mW? 4.3. PPSP Peer = Protocol > Requirements >=20 > [ZN] I think the main scenario is mobile P2P where peers have very = limited > power and are not suitable for long-term streaming and the tracker may only > put those peers in limited number of swarms. The tracker has *no* influence over what swarms peers join or not join, = and it can't prevent anything. And peers can obviously simply lie about = their battery information. [ZN] If tracker doesn't reply with an initial peer list, it would be difficult (not impossible) for the requesting peer to start - just like being lack of bootstrap information, right? I am also thinking that lower battery status of a peer *may* lead = tracker to NOT to put this peer in the peer list for other peers, since lower = battery peer may unstable (e.g. offline soon). > Section 4.3., paragraph 10: >> Streaming status information should be related to the content >> delivery, including online time, link status including available >> uplink and downlink bandwidth, peer capability and other streaming >> parameters of the peer. With this information, a peer can select >> more appropriate peers for content sharing based on some content >> sharing strategies and/or application requirements. >=20 > bandwidth information here.> Also, s/streaming//g (not all swarms are > for streaming) >=20 > [ZN] Understand. How about "...link status including available = bandwidth if > possible..." or just "...link status including DSL/wifi/etc..."? Other > suggestions? Remove it? [ZN] I am OK, how about other contributors? Lars From guyingjie@huawei.com Thu Feb 10 23:07:49 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35A403A68B8 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 23:07:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EDv5c8a4DV6K for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 23:07:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC15A3A689D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 23:07:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LGF00551YH11O@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 15:07:49 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LGF00JZNYH1NF@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 15:07:49 +0800 (CST) Received: from g00107907 ([10.138.41.53]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LGF00I0MYH0QE@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 15:07:49 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 15:09:56 +0800 From: "Y.J. GU" In-reply-to: <00a201cbc99d$655f1650$301d42f0$@com> To: 'Ning Zong' , 'Lars Eggert' Message-id: <005501cbc9ba$affaf270$35298a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcvJKbW7kLmzZe7zSEiwwGnKadTkowAZw9xwAAe3cGA= Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] =?utf-8?b?IFJFOiAg562U5aSNOiDnrZTlpI06ICByZXZpZXc6IGRyYWZ0?= =?utf-8?q?-ietf-ppsp-reqs-01?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 07:07:49 -0000 Sorry for chiming in. Here is some of my opinions on the comments and = proposals. > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Ning > Zong > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 11:40 AM > To: 'Lars Eggert' > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: review: = draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-01 >=20 > Hi, Lars, >=20 > Thank you for comments. See inline. >=20 > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Lars Eggert = [mailto:lars.eggert@nokia.com] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: = 2011=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8810=E6=97=A5 21:52 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Ning Zong > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: ppsp@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: [ppsp] review: = draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-01 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > thanks for responding. I have a few more comments below; I'm cutting = all the > text that I think we have a way forward on. >=20 > On 2011-2-10, at 11:11, Ning Zong wrote: > > Section 2., paragraph 5: > >> Peer list: A list of peer ID which are in a same swarm maintained = by > >> the PPSP tracker. A peer must fetch the peer list of a swarm = from > >> the tracker to know which peers have the required content. > > > > "Must it", really? I agree that this is one way of getting a peer > > list, but in some deployments it is also possible to get a peer = list > > from other peers or through some non-tracker third party. > > > > [ZN] In current charter we don't focus on specific tracker entity, = but > > general tracker function provided with various forms such as = centralized, > > distributed, or third-party provided. > > We can explicitly state in next revision that here the tracker refer = to > > tracker function, rather than tracker server. >=20 > What I meant is that the current definition is too narrow. Yes, the = tracker > has a peer list. But so do the peers themselves (although it is likely = much > less complete than that of the tracker.) But in a system where peers > exchange peer information directly, or there are multiple trackers, or = there > is some other way to get peer information, *nobody* may actually have = the > definitive list of peers in a swarm - and no one needs to, since the = system > still works OK. >=20 > [ZN] I agree that the tracker is not the only part to provide peer = list. In > PPSP.PP.REQ-4, it says that peer can also get an extra list of peers = other > than those in the list from tracker. > And you are right that the statement here is not precise. I propose to > change "fetch the peer list of a swarm from the tracker" to "fetch an > initial peer list from the tracker or other entity in bootstrapping = stage". [Gyj] I agree that peer can get peerlist from Tracker and other peers. = But I am not very sure whether 'getting peerlist from other entity in = bootstrapping stage' or 'non-tracker third party'is in the scope of = PPSP. According to Section 4 in draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement, there = are only two entities in PPSP architecture : Tracker and Peer. I agree = that a peerlist can be gotten from non-tracker and non-peer entity, but = that is not PPSP consideration. So, getting peerlist from either Tracker = or peer is okay, other than those, I think, are out of the scope of = PPSP.=20 I propose to revise the requirement as ' A peer can fetch the peer list = of a swarm from either tracker or other peers to know which peers have the required = content ' > > Section 4.1.1., paragraph 0: > >> 4.1.1. Basic Requirements to PPSP Node > > > > I think we're missing a high-level requirement that the tracker and > > peer protocols should be as similar as possible, in terms of = design, > > message formats and flows, etc. Ideally, the peer protocol would be = an > > extension to the tracker protocol that adds a few message types. We = do > > NOT want two completely different protocols here. > > > > [ZN] You are right, and in the current design, the tracker and peer > > protocols are similar. But do we need to make this as a formal > requirement? >=20 > Why not? >=20 > [ZN] I am OK to make this a formal requirement. How about other > contributors? [Gyj] What Lars suggest is an ideal situation. And we should follow the = requirement. But for now, I am not sure whether there are some messages = in Peer Protocol that can not be extend by Tracker Protocol. I suggest = we define this requirement as a 'SHOULD' item. Lars also suggest = 'SHOULD'. > > Section 4.1.1., paragraph 3: > >> The peer ID may be generated from IP address or SIP URI which > >> can distinguish this peer with the others. But if IP address is = used > >> as peer ID, the ID may be unstable as IP address may change while > >> peer moving. > > > > Not sure if we need to discuss here what the options are for = choosing > > peer IDs. If we want to do this, we need to really discuss all the > > options, some obvious ones are missing (e.g., large random value, > > etc.) > > > > [ZN] Option for choosing peer ID is still a open issue. IMO, = consider the > > case that IP address may change, unique peer IDs such as those used = in > > RELOAD are preferred in peer/swarm management level, while IP = address is > for > > peer connection. > > Other thoughts? >=20 > I'd simply cut the text above then. >=20 > [ZN]: I agree. [Gyj] What the Requirement draft needs to decide is whether the Peer ID = need to be unique in global or just in a swarm. I didn't go through the = requirement draft words by words, but my memory is that we don't decide = yet.=20 > > Section 4.1.3., paragraph 2: > >> PPSP.REQ-8: The Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol are = Recommended to > >> be carried over TCP (or UDP, when delivery requirements cannot be = met > >> by TCP). > > > > I really think we should be simply requiring TCP here and not even > > talk about UDP. > > > > [ZN] I don=E2=80=99t quite understand why must TCP? >=20 > Because building something on top of UDP is difficult; see RFC5405. >=20 > In which case do you think TCP will not be appropriate? >=20 > [ZN] Consider the cases: > 1) a large number of connections between peers are only for temporary > information exchange (e.g. chunk availability exchange) and = won=E2=80=99t persist > for data transfer (if the requested peers don=E2=80=99t have the = requested chunks). > 2) a peer may communicate with a small subset of peers only for a = short term > and then frequently change to another small subset of peers (like = PPLive). > TCP may introduce more (and possibly unnecessary) overhead. > > Section 4.2., paragraph 0: > >> PPSP.REQ-9: The Tracker Protocol is Recommended to support the IP > >> address change report sent from the peer. The Peer Protocol may > >> support the IP address change report sent from the peer. > > > > I have no idea what this means. If this is about supporting mobile > > peers, why do we need anything specific to that in the protocol? A > > peer whose IP address changes simply looks like a leave-and-join to > > the swarm. > > > > [ZN] Yes, this is merged from another draft for mobile P2P case: > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-lu-ppsp-mobile-04.txt > > IMO, this is helpful to re-connect between peers in a timely manner = since > > peer may not re-send join message to the tracker even after IP = change. > Other > > thoughts? >=20 > What I'm saying is that a mobility events to the tracker and to other = peers > looks exactly like a leave followed by a join. In other words, we = don't need > any extra support in the protocol for it. >=20 > [ZN] I agree that we don=E2=80=99t need extra message for this. But it = seems that > we then need new requirement about when the peer should send join = message - > bootstrap, IP address change, etc...? > > > > Section 4.2., paragraph 8: > >> PPSP.TP.REQ-7: The PPSP tracker MAY generate the peer list with = the > >> help of traffic optimization services, e.g. Alto. > > > > Not sure if we need this, since a "MAY"-level statement isn't = really a > > requirement. This would make more sense as a non-requirement in > > explanatory text. Also, cite ALTO. > > > > [ZN] How about change "MAY" to "SHOULD support" - which means = "optionally > > implement"? >=20 > ALTO is a mechanism for *peers* to perform better then random = *initial* peer > selection. It's completely unclear if the tracker can even do = something > useful with the ALTO information, at least without a lot more context = about > the peer. >=20 > [ZN] I think in tracker based P2P system, the tracker can act as the = ALTO > client, which receives ALTO information and performs peer selection = (Section > 3.1 in draft-ietf-alto-reqs-07.txt). > But anyway, I agree that this MAY-level statement should move to > non-requirement text. I propose to revise the requirement as "PPSP = system > SHOULD support traffic optimization service, e.g. ALTO [cite]". Other > thoughts? >=20 > > Section 4.3., paragraph 0: > >> PPSP.TP.REQ-9: Battery status of the peer SHOULD be reported to = the > >> tracker in the case where the peers are constrained by their = limited > >> battery (e.g. cellphone), > > > > Why? What is the tracker supposed to do with this information? Also, = what > > metric do you envision to be applied here, mW? 4.3. PPSP Peer = Protocol > > Requirements > > > > [ZN] I think the main scenario is mobile P2P where peers have very = limited > > power and are not suitable for long-term streaming and the tracker = may > only > > put those peers in limited number of swarms. >=20 > The tracker has *no* influence over what swarms peers join or not = join, and > it can't prevent anything. And peers can obviously simply lie about = their > battery information. >=20 > [ZN] If tracker doesn't reply with an initial peer list, it would be > difficult (not impossible) for the requesting peer to start - just = like > being lack of bootstrap information, right? > I am also thinking that lower battery status of a peer *may* lead = tracker to > NOT to put this peer in the peer list for other peers, since lower = battery > peer may unstable (e.g. offline soon). >=20 > > Section 4.3., paragraph 10: > >> Streaming status information should be related to the content > >> delivery, including online time, link status including available > >> uplink and downlink bandwidth, peer capability and other = streaming > >> parameters of the peer. With this information, a peer can select > >> more appropriate peers for content sharing based on some content > >> sharing strategies and/or application requirements. > > > > > bandwidth information here.> Also, s/streaming//g (not all swarms = are > > for streaming) > > > > [ZN] Understand. How about "...link status including available = bandwidth > if > > possible..." or just "...link status including DSL/wifi/etc..."? = Other > > suggestions? >=20 > Remove it? >=20 > [ZN] I am OK, how about other contributors? >=20 > Lars >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Fri Feb 11 05:57:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A223A69FF for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 05:57:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.337 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.337 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.087, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EuSkl6I0KZSN for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 05:57:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp0.netlab.nec.de (smtp0.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB3D53A69BD for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 05:57:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4A22800018B for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:58:51 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from smtp0.netlab.nec.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HPFG0Mr0fqNY for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:58:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844F92800018A for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:58:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from PALLENE.office.hd ([169.254.1.162]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:57:30 +0100 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Brief review of draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-01 Thread-Index: AcvJ854UMN5caCSETvKvZ5aH+3Qrug== Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 13:57:30 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.67] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ppsp] Brief review of draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-01 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 13:57:22 -0000 Dear all, Here is my review of draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-01.txt=20 (http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-01.txt) I have sometimes back commented on the -00 version of this draft and I wasn= 't too happy about the old version. However, the -01 has made good progress= towards a problem statement draft. It is way more readable!=20 The good thing is the separation in problem statement and also uses cases.= =20 Here are some few details: - There are some places where company or particular project names are menti= oned without having the benefit of mentioning them being clear to me. For e= xample, the content centric projects are mentioned, but I don't see the nea= r term relationship of those to the PPSP problem statement draft. I would s= uggest to remove these loosely related references. The same holds true for = Pandoo/PPLive.=20 - Section 3: This sections follows the right direction, but I would drill d= own the technical issues current caused (and foreseeable in the future) in = more technical details. For instance, it is problematic to have p2p tv on m= obile handsets, as they are limited in battery power, but the bigger issue = seems to me the overloading of the wireless part, the backhaul, and probabl= y even the GGSN (or however the packet gateway) is called. PPSP may not be = able to fix the downlink part, but I could imagine that the mobile peers ar= e at least not uploading anything or delegate this to the a PPSP super peer= in the operator network.=20 - Section 3.1: good start, but probably not enough text. this should also b= e set in relationship with DECADE - Section 3.4: this is a chance of PPSP, but it may be also worth documenti= ng the fact that a standardized PPSP may not ensure that you can use a sing= le PPSP client for all TV programs or systems. It may happen that different= systems use PPSP for signalling and media transport, but implement somethi= ng system specific on top of that. For instance, they could use some home-g= rown codec (e.g. WebM) or use encryption. This is a very brief review, but I would be happy to discuss how to progres= s with the draft. Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London = W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014=20 From lin.xiao@nsn.com Mon Feb 14 01:54:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F643A6C92 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 01:54:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.102 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lzaoZNZYnBZJ for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 01:54:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69FD23A6B6E for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 01:54:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p1E9tExh010599 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 14 Feb 2011 10:55:14 +0100 Received: from demuexc023.nsn-intra.net (demuexc023.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.36]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p1E9tEjZ016859; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 10:55:14 +0100 Received: from CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.192.12]) by demuexc023.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 14 Feb 2011 10:55:10 +0100 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 17:54:56 +0800 Message-ID: <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDBB3D22F@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: <005501cbc9ba$affaf270$35298a0a@china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: =?gb2312?B?W3Bwc3BdICBSRTogILTwuLQ6ILTwuLQ6ICByZXZpZXc6IGRyYWZ0LQ==?= =?gb2312?B?aWV0Zi1wcHNwLXJlcXMtMDE=?= Thread-Index: AcvJKbW7kLmzZe7zSEiwwGnKadTkowAZw9xwAAe3cGAAnYVD4A== References: <00a201cbc99d$655f1650$301d42f0$@com> <005501cbc9ba$affaf270$35298a0a@china.huawei.com> From: "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" To: "ext Y.J. GU" , "Ning Zong" , "Lars Eggert" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Feb 2011 09:55:10.0092 (UTC) FILETIME=[44415CC0:01CBCC2D] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogtPC4tDogIHJldmlldzogZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1w?= =?gb2312?b?cHNwLXJlcXMtMDE=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 09:54:59 -0000 Thanks Lars for such a close review on the draft. It's really helpful = for us to re-consider some issues and to refine the draft for the next = version. =20 As the comments are very long, I just list my opinions simply as = followed: 1. for the peerlist fetching, I think we have got the agreement that = Peer can fetch the peer list of a swarm from either tracker or other = peers, and the initial peerlist should be fetched from tracker. 2. Agree to add a new requirement to declare that the protocol design = should keep same style for both Peer protocol and tracker protocol, in = terms of message formats and flows, 3. It is agreed that the Peer ID is unique within a swarm. But = considering the special situation that a peer may take part in multiple = swarms, is it better to simply keep one ID for the peer among different = swarms? 4. For some issues from mobility consideration, I agree with Lars as I = suggested in IETF 79 that, it's not necessary to make such a specific = requirement to handle IP address changing. Any peer status change can be = reflected in the periodically status report, including the battery = status. The detailed items which status should be involved in the report = should not be fully listed in the requirement draft. 5. for ALTO support, I agree with Ning that tracker can work as an ALTO = client to refine the peer selection responding. BR Lin -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Y.J. GU Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 3:10 PM To: 'Ning Zong'; 'Lars Eggert' Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] RE: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: review: = draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-01 Sorry for chiming in. Here is some of my opinions on the comments and = proposals. > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20 > Of Ning Zong > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 11:40 AM > To: 'Lars Eggert' > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: review: = draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-01 >=20 > Hi, Lars, >=20 > Thank you for comments. See inline. >=20 > -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Lars Eggert [mailto:lars.eggert@nokia.com] > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA2=D4=C210=C8=D5 21:52 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Ning Zong > =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org > =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [ppsp] review: draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-01 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > thanks for responding. I have a few more comments below; I'm cutting=20 > all the text that I think we have a way forward on. >=20 > On 2011-2-10, at 11:11, Ning Zong wrote: > > Section 2., paragraph 5: > >> Peer list: A list of peer ID which are in a same swarm maintained = by > >> the PPSP tracker. A peer must fetch the peer list of a swarm = from > >> the tracker to know which peers have the required content. > > > > "Must it", really? I agree that this is one way of getting a peer =20 > > list, but in some deployments it is also possible to get a peer list = =20 > > from other peers or through some non-tracker third party. > > > > [ZN] In current charter we don't focus on specific tracker entity,=20 > > but general tracker function provided with various forms such as=20 > > centralized, distributed, or third-party provided. > > We can explicitly state in next revision that here the tracker refer = > > to tracker function, rather than tracker server. >=20 > What I meant is that the current definition is too narrow. Yes, the=20 > tracker has a peer list. But so do the peers themselves (although it=20 > is likely much less complete than that of the tracker.) But in a=20 > system where peers exchange peer information directly, or there are=20 > multiple trackers, or there is some other way to get peer information, = > *nobody* may actually have the definitive list of peers in a swarm -=20 > and no one needs to, since the system still works OK. >=20 > [ZN] I agree that the tracker is not the only part to provide peer=20 > list. In PPSP.PP.REQ-4, it says that peer can also get an extra list=20 > of peers other than those in the list from tracker. > And you are right that the statement here is not precise. I propose to = > change "fetch the peer list of a swarm from the tracker" to "fetch an=20 > initial peer list from the tracker or other entity in bootstrapping = stage". [Gyj] I agree that peer can get peerlist from Tracker and other peers. = But I am not very sure whether 'getting peerlist from other entity in = bootstrapping stage' or 'non-tracker third party'is in the scope of = PPSP. According to Section 4 in draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement, there = are only two entities in PPSP architecture : Tracker and Peer. I agree = that a peerlist can be gotten from non-tracker and non-peer entity, but = that is not PPSP consideration. So, getting peerlist from either Tracker = or peer is okay, other than those, I think, are out of the scope of = PPSP.=20 I propose to revise the requirement as ' A peer can fetch the peer list = of a swarm from either tracker or other peers to know which peers have = the required content ' > > Section 4.1.1., paragraph 0: > >> 4.1.1. Basic Requirements to PPSP Node > > > > I think we're missing a high-level requirement that the tracker and = =20 > > peer protocols should be as similar as possible, in terms of design, = =20 > > message formats and flows, etc. Ideally, the peer protocol would be=20 > > an extension to the tracker protocol that adds a few message types. = > > We do NOT want two completely different protocols here. > > > > [ZN] You are right, and in the current design, the tracker and peer=20 > > protocols are similar. But do we need to make this as a formal > requirement? >=20 > Why not? >=20 > [ZN] I am OK to make this a formal requirement. How about other=20 > contributors? [Gyj] What Lars suggest is an ideal situation. And we should follow the = requirement. But for now, I am not sure whether there are some messages = in Peer Protocol that can not be extend by Tracker Protocol. I suggest = we define this requirement as a 'SHOULD' item. Lars also suggest = 'SHOULD'. > > Section 4.1.1., paragraph 3: > >> The peer ID may be generated from IP address or SIP URI which > >> can distinguish this peer with the others. But if IP address is = used > >> as peer ID, the ID may be unstable as IP address may change while > >> peer moving. > > > > Not sure if we need to discuss here what the options are for=20 > > choosing peer IDs. If we want to do this, we need to really discuss = > > all the options, some obvious ones are missing (e.g., large random=20 > > value, > > etc.) > > > > [ZN] Option for choosing peer ID is still a open issue. IMO,=20 > > consider the case that IP address may change, unique peer IDs such=20 > > as those used in RELOAD are preferred in peer/swarm management=20 > > level, while IP address is > for > > peer connection. > > Other thoughts? >=20 > I'd simply cut the text above then. >=20 > [ZN]: I agree. [Gyj] What the Requirement draft needs to decide is whether the Peer ID = need to be unique in global or just in a swarm. I didn't go through the = requirement draft words by words, but my memory is that we don't decide = yet.=20 > > Section 4.1.3., paragraph 2: > >> PPSP.REQ-8: The Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol are = Recommended to > >> be carried over TCP (or UDP, when delivery requirements cannot be = met > >> by TCP). > > > > I really think we should be simply requiring TCP here and not even = > > talk about UDP. > > > > [ZN] I don=A1=AFt quite understand why must TCP? >=20 > Because building something on top of UDP is difficult; see RFC5405. >=20 > In which case do you think TCP will not be appropriate? >=20 > [ZN] Consider the cases: > 1) a large number of connections between peers are only for temporary=20 > information exchange (e.g. chunk availability exchange) and won=A1=AFt = > persist for data transfer (if the requested peers don=A1=AFt have the = requested chunks). > 2) a peer may communicate with a small subset of peers only for a=20 > short term and then frequently change to another small subset of peers = (like PPLive). > TCP may introduce more (and possibly unnecessary) overhead. > > Section 4.2., paragraph 0: > >> PPSP.REQ-9: The Tracker Protocol is Recommended to support the IP = > >> address change report sent from the peer. The Peer Protocol may =20 > >> support the IP address change report sent from the peer. > > > > I have no idea what this means. If this is about supporting mobile = > > peers, why do we need anything specific to that in the protocol? A =20 > > peer whose IP address changes simply looks like a leave-and-join to = > > the swarm. > > > > [ZN] Yes, this is merged from another draft for mobile P2P case: > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-lu-ppsp-mobile-04.txt > > IMO, this is helpful to re-connect between peers in a timely manner=20 > > since peer may not re-send join message to the tracker even after IP = change. > Other > > thoughts? >=20 > What I'm saying is that a mobility events to the tracker and to other=20 > peers looks exactly like a leave followed by a join. In other words,=20 > we don't need any extra support in the protocol for it. >=20 > [ZN] I agree that we don=A1=AFt need extra message for this. But it = seems=20 > that we then need new requirement about when the peer should send join = > message - bootstrap, IP address change, etc...? > > > > Section 4.2., paragraph 8: > >> PPSP.TP.REQ-7: The PPSP tracker MAY generate the peer list with = the > >> help of traffic optimization services, e.g. Alto. > > > > Not sure if we need this, since a "MAY"-level statement isn't=20 > > really a requirement. This would make more sense as a=20 > > non-requirement in explanatory text. Also, cite ALTO. > > > > [ZN] How about change "MAY" to "SHOULD support" - which means=20 > > "optionally implement"? >=20 > ALTO is a mechanism for *peers* to perform better then random=20 > *initial* peer selection. It's completely unclear if the tracker can=20 > even do something useful with the ALTO information, at least without a = > lot more context about the peer. >=20 > [ZN] I think in tracker based P2P system, the tracker can act as the=20 > ALTO client, which receives ALTO information and performs peer=20 > selection (Section > 3.1 in draft-ietf-alto-reqs-07.txt). > But anyway, I agree that this MAY-level statement should move to=20 > non-requirement text. I propose to revise the requirement as "PPSP=20 > system SHOULD support traffic optimization service, e.g. ALTO [cite]". = > Other thoughts? >=20 > > Section 4.3., paragraph 0: > >> PPSP.TP.REQ-9: Battery status of the peer SHOULD be reported to = the > >> tracker in the case where the peers are constrained by their = limited > >> battery (e.g. cellphone), > > > > Why? What is the tracker supposed to do with this information? Also, = =20 > > what metric do you envision to be applied here, mW? 4.3. PPSP Peer = =20 > > Protocol Requirements > > > > [ZN] I think the main scenario is mobile P2P where peers have very=20 > > limited power and are not suitable for long-term streaming and the=20 > > tracker may > only > > put those peers in limited number of swarms. >=20 > The tracker has *no* influence over what swarms peers join or not=20 > join, and it can't prevent anything. And peers can obviously simply=20 > lie about their battery information. >=20 > [ZN] If tracker doesn't reply with an initial peer list, it would be=20 > difficult (not impossible) for the requesting peer to start - just=20 > like being lack of bootstrap information, right? > I am also thinking that lower battery status of a peer *may* lead=20 > tracker to NOT to put this peer in the peer list for other peers,=20 > since lower battery peer may unstable (e.g. offline soon). >=20 > > Section 4.3., paragraph 10: > >> Streaming status information should be related to the content > >> delivery, including online time, link status including available > >> uplink and downlink bandwidth, peer capability and other = streaming > >> parameters of the peer. With this information, a peer can select > >> more appropriate peers for content sharing based on some content > >> sharing strategies and/or application requirements. > > > > > use bandwidth information here.> Also, s/streaming//g (not all=20 > > swarms are for streaming) > > > > [ZN] Understand. How about "...link status including available=20 > > bandwidth > if > > possible..." or just "...link status including DSL/wifi/etc..."?=20 > > Other suggestions? >=20 > Remove it? >=20 > [ZN] I am OK, how about other contributors? >=20 > Lars >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zongning@huawei.com Mon Feb 14 17:32:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C883A6DF7 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 17:32:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.404 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.404 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.610, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id czlWwzgBPepw for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 17:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3E23A6A0C for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 17:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LGM00AU8XLMDM@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:32:10 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LGM001ZBXLMI4@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:32:10 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316a ([10.138.41.31]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LGM00GG3XLI9D@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:32:10 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:32:06 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDBB3D22F@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> To: "'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'" , "'ext Y.J. GU'" , 'Lars Eggert' Message-id: <006a01cbccb0$284a4ee0$78deeca0$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-cn Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcvJKbW7kLmzZe7zSEiwwGnKadTkowAZw9xwAAe3cGAAnYVD4AAibOHA References: <00a201cbc99d$655f1650$301d42f0$@com> <005501cbc9ba$affaf270$35298a0a@china.huawei.com> <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDBB3D22F@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogICBSRTogILTwuLQ6ILTwuLQ6ICByZXZpZXc6?= =?gb2312?b?IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtcHBzcC1yZXFzLTAx?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 01:32:03 -0000 Thanks Lin, Please see inline. -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) = [mailto:lin.xiao@nsn.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA2=D4=C214=C8=D5 17:55 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext Y.J. GU; Ning Zong; Lars Eggert =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [ppsp] RE: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: review: = draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-01 Thanks Lars for such a close review on the draft. It's really helpful = for us to re-consider some issues and to refine the draft for the next version. = =20 As the comments are very long, I just list my opinions simply as = followed: 1. for the peerlist fetching, I think we have got the agreement that = Peer can fetch the peer list of a swarm from either tracker or other peers, = and the initial peerlist should be fetched from tracker. [ZN] +1 2. Agree to add a new requirement to declare that the protocol design = should keep same style for both Peer protocol and tracker protocol, in terms of message formats and flows, [ZN] +1 3. It is agreed that the Peer ID is unique within a swarm. But = considering the special situation that a peer may take part in multiple swarms, is = it better to simply keep one ID for the peer among different swarms? [ZN] I would leave this cross-swarm peer ID management issue to the application level - e.g. application may use its own mechanism to = correlate various peer IDs for a single node/device. 4. For some issues from mobility consideration, I agree with Lars as I suggested in IETF 79 that, it's not necessary to make such a specific requirement to handle IP address changing. Any peer status change can be reflected in the periodically status report, including the battery = status. The detailed items which status should be involved in the report should = not be fully listed in the requirement draft. [ZN] I agree we can merge this into one requirement item. 5. for ALTO support, I agree with Ning that tracker can work as an ALTO client to refine the peer selection responding. [ZN] +1 BR Lin -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Y.J. GU Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 3:10 PM To: 'Ning Zong'; 'Lars Eggert' Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] RE: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: review: = draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-01 Sorry for chiming in. Here is some of my opinions on the comments and proposals. > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20 > Of Ning Zong > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 11:40 AM > To: 'Lars Eggert' > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: review: = draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-01 >=20 > Hi, Lars, >=20 > Thank you for comments. See inline. >=20 > -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Lars Eggert [mailto:lars.eggert@nokia.com] > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA2=D4=C210=C8=D5 21:52 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Ning Zong > =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp@ietf.org > =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [ppsp] review: draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-01 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > thanks for responding. I have a few more comments below; I'm cutting=20 > all the text that I think we have a way forward on. >=20 > On 2011-2-10, at 11:11, Ning Zong wrote: > > Section 2., paragraph 5: > >> Peer list: A list of peer ID which are in a same swarm maintained = by > >> the PPSP tracker. A peer must fetch the peer list of a swarm = from > >> the tracker to know which peers have the required content. > > > > "Must it", really? I agree that this is one way of getting a peer =20 > > list, but in some deployments it is also possible to get a peer list = =20 > > from other peers or through some non-tracker third party. > > > > [ZN] In current charter we don't focus on specific tracker entity,=20 > > but general tracker function provided with various forms such as=20 > > centralized, distributed, or third-party provided. > > We can explicitly state in next revision that here the tracker refer = > > to tracker function, rather than tracker server. >=20 > What I meant is that the current definition is too narrow. Yes, the=20 > tracker has a peer list. But so do the peers themselves (although it=20 > is likely much less complete than that of the tracker.) But in a=20 > system where peers exchange peer information directly, or there are=20 > multiple trackers, or there is some other way to get peer information, = > *nobody* may actually have the definitive list of peers in a swarm -=20 > and no one needs to, since the system still works OK. >=20 > [ZN] I agree that the tracker is not the only part to provide peer=20 > list. In PPSP.PP.REQ-4, it says that peer can also get an extra list=20 > of peers other than those in the list from tracker. > And you are right that the statement here is not precise. I propose to = > change "fetch the peer list of a swarm from the tracker" to "fetch an=20 > initial peer list from the tracker or other entity in bootstrapping stage". [Gyj] I agree that peer can get peerlist from Tracker and other peers. = But I am not very sure whether 'getting peerlist from other entity in bootstrapping stage' or 'non-tracker third party'is in the scope of = PPSP. According to Section 4 in draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement, there are = only two entities in PPSP architecture : Tracker and Peer. I agree that a peerlist can be gotten from non-tracker and non-peer entity, but that is = not PPSP consideration. So, getting peerlist from either Tracker or peer is okay, other than those, I think, are out of the scope of PPSP.=20 I propose to revise the requirement as ' A peer can fetch the peer list = of a swarm from either tracker or other peers to know which peers have the required content ' > > Section 4.1.1., paragraph 0: > >> 4.1.1. Basic Requirements to PPSP Node > > > > I think we're missing a high-level requirement that the tracker and = =20 > > peer protocols should be as similar as possible, in terms of design, = =20 > > message formats and flows, etc. Ideally, the peer protocol would be=20 > > an extension to the tracker protocol that adds a few message types. = > > We do NOT want two completely different protocols here. > > > > [ZN] You are right, and in the current design, the tracker and peer=20 > > protocols are similar. But do we need to make this as a formal > requirement? >=20 > Why not? >=20 > [ZN] I am OK to make this a formal requirement. How about other=20 > contributors? [Gyj] What Lars suggest is an ideal situation. And we should follow the requirement. But for now, I am not sure whether there are some messages = in Peer Protocol that can not be extend by Tracker Protocol. I suggest we define this requirement as a 'SHOULD' item. Lars also suggest 'SHOULD'. > > Section 4.1.1., paragraph 3: > >> The peer ID may be generated from IP address or SIP URI which > >> can distinguish this peer with the others. But if IP address is = used > >> as peer ID, the ID may be unstable as IP address may change while > >> peer moving. > > > > Not sure if we need to discuss here what the options are for=20 > > choosing peer IDs. If we want to do this, we need to really discuss = > > all the options, some obvious ones are missing (e.g., large random=20 > > value, > > etc.) > > > > [ZN] Option for choosing peer ID is still a open issue. IMO,=20 > > consider the case that IP address may change, unique peer IDs such=20 > > as those used in RELOAD are preferred in peer/swarm management=20 > > level, while IP address is > for > > peer connection. > > Other thoughts? >=20 > I'd simply cut the text above then. >=20 > [ZN]: I agree. [Gyj] What the Requirement draft needs to decide is whether the Peer ID = need to be unique in global or just in a swarm. I didn't go through the requirement draft words by words, but my memory is that we don't decide = yet. > > Section 4.1.3., paragraph 2: > >> PPSP.REQ-8: The Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol are = Recommended to > >> be carried over TCP (or UDP, when delivery requirements cannot be = met > >> by TCP). > > > > I really think we should be simply requiring TCP here and not even = > > talk about UDP. > > > > [ZN] I don=A1=AFt quite understand why must TCP? >=20 > Because building something on top of UDP is difficult; see RFC5405. >=20 > In which case do you think TCP will not be appropriate? >=20 > [ZN] Consider the cases: > 1) a large number of connections between peers are only for temporary=20 > information exchange (e.g. chunk availability exchange) and won=A1=AFt = > persist for data transfer (if the requested peers don=A1=AFt have the requested chunks). > 2) a peer may communicate with a small subset of peers only for a=20 > short term and then frequently change to another small subset of peers (like PPLive). > TCP may introduce more (and possibly unnecessary) overhead. > > Section 4.2., paragraph 0: > >> PPSP.REQ-9: The Tracker Protocol is Recommended to support the IP = > >> address change report sent from the peer. The Peer Protocol may =20 > >> support the IP address change report sent from the peer. > > > > I have no idea what this means. If this is about supporting mobile = > > peers, why do we need anything specific to that in the protocol? A =20 > > peer whose IP address changes simply looks like a leave-and-join to = > > the swarm. > > > > [ZN] Yes, this is merged from another draft for mobile P2P case: > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-lu-ppsp-mobile-04.txt > > IMO, this is helpful to re-connect between peers in a timely manner=20 > > since peer may not re-send join message to the tracker even after IP change. > Other > > thoughts? >=20 > What I'm saying is that a mobility events to the tracker and to other=20 > peers looks exactly like a leave followed by a join. In other words,=20 > we don't need any extra support in the protocol for it. >=20 > [ZN] I agree that we don=A1=AFt need extra message for this. But it = seems=20 > that we then need new requirement about when the peer should send join = > message - bootstrap, IP address change, etc...? > > > > Section 4.2., paragraph 8: > >> PPSP.TP.REQ-7: The PPSP tracker MAY generate the peer list with = the > >> help of traffic optimization services, e.g. Alto. > > > > Not sure if we need this, since a "MAY"-level statement isn't=20 > > really a requirement. This would make more sense as a=20 > > non-requirement in explanatory text. Also, cite ALTO. > > > > [ZN] How about change "MAY" to "SHOULD support" - which means=20 > > "optionally implement"? >=20 > ALTO is a mechanism for *peers* to perform better then random=20 > *initial* peer selection. It's completely unclear if the tracker can=20 > even do something useful with the ALTO information, at least without a = > lot more context about the peer. >=20 > [ZN] I think in tracker based P2P system, the tracker can act as the=20 > ALTO client, which receives ALTO information and performs peer=20 > selection (Section > 3.1 in draft-ietf-alto-reqs-07.txt). > But anyway, I agree that this MAY-level statement should move to=20 > non-requirement text. I propose to revise the requirement as "PPSP=20 > system SHOULD support traffic optimization service, e.g. ALTO [cite]". = > Other thoughts? >=20 > > Section 4.3., paragraph 0: > >> PPSP.TP.REQ-9: Battery status of the peer SHOULD be reported to = the > >> tracker in the case where the peers are constrained by their = limited > >> battery (e.g. cellphone), > > > > Why? What is the tracker supposed to do with this information? Also, = =20 > > what metric do you envision to be applied here, mW? 4.3. PPSP Peer = =20 > > Protocol Requirements > > > > [ZN] I think the main scenario is mobile P2P where peers have very=20 > > limited power and are not suitable for long-term streaming and the=20 > > tracker may > only > > put those peers in limited number of swarms. >=20 > The tracker has *no* influence over what swarms peers join or not=20 > join, and it can't prevent anything. And peers can obviously simply=20 > lie about their battery information. >=20 > [ZN] If tracker doesn't reply with an initial peer list, it would be=20 > difficult (not impossible) for the requesting peer to start - just=20 > like being lack of bootstrap information, right? > I am also thinking that lower battery status of a peer *may* lead=20 > tracker to NOT to put this peer in the peer list for other peers,=20 > since lower battery peer may unstable (e.g. offline soon). >=20 > > Section 4.3., paragraph 10: > >> Streaming status information should be related to the content > >> delivery, including online time, link status including available > >> uplink and downlink bandwidth, peer capability and other = streaming > >> parameters of the peer. With this information, a peer can select > >> more appropriate peers for content sharing based on some content > >> sharing strategies and/or application requirements. > > > > > use bandwidth information here.> Also, s/streaming//g (not all=20 > > swarms are for streaming) > > > > [ZN] Understand. How about "...link status including available=20 > > bandwidth > if > > possible..." or just "...link status including DSL/wifi/etc..."?=20 > > Other suggestions? >=20 > Remove it? >=20 > [ZN] I am OK, how about other contributors? >=20 > Lars >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Feb 14 18:01:00 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8694E3A6D9B for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 18:01:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -93.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-93.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.652, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3HNhmLb9F0Nn for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 18:00:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (hqmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 436A53A6D24 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 18:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.imsstest.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48108210B6; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:01:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by hqmta.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F55D16ACD; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:01:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011021510011209-4104 ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:01:12 +0800 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:01:05 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <201101180955204217745@chinamobile.com> <201101181419275009728@chinamobile.com> <201101311644379687165@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <201102151000498905239@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-02-15 10:01:12, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-02-15 10:01:15, Serialize complete at 2011-02-15 10:01:15 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon116205688736_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.5.0.1024-17956.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--32.827-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--32.827-7.0-31-10;No--32.827-5.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 3 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming 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MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UFITt2gWV7OP for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 18:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (hqmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9E73A6E16 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 18:21:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.imsstest.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4148F20DF4; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:22:12 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by hqmta.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3318D20DEB; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:22:12 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011021510220810-4779 ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:22:08 +0800 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:21:59 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Martin Stiemerling" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: Message-ID: <201102151021534534560@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-02-15 10:22:11, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-02-15 10:22:11, Serialize complete at 2011-02-15 10:22:11 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon547747204471_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.5.0.1024-17956.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--25.087-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--25.087-7.0-31-10;No--25.087-5.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] Brief review of draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-01 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 02:21:55 -0000 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ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B65913A6B6A for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 17:48:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.259, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VvBP5hTXS9So for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 17:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 770153A684E for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 17:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LGO00DVTT16OX@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:48:43 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LGO00KDDT16LO@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:48:42 +0800 (CST) Received: from g00107907 ([10.138.41.53]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LGO00IJBT161A@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:48:42 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:50:23 +0800 From: "Y.J. GU" To: ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <001501cbcd7b$e09d7c80$35298a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_V2m4El+tZBo+NzhcwgxgeQ)" Thread-index: AcvNe+A0WeNpTW7+Q1OwnmhRVW+hfA== Subject: [ppsp] Look forward to hear your opinion on Open Issues in Tracker Protocol X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 01:48:29 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_V2m4El+tZBo+NzhcwgxgeQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi all, At IETF 79 meeting, we discussed some open issues in Tracker protocol. However, because of time limitation, we don't have enough discussion to make any decision on some of the most important issues. The authors of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol and draft-gu-ppsp-peer-protocol enumerate two of the open issues, which they think are very crucial to both Tracker and Peer Protocol design. We sincerely hope you can voice your opinion on these two issues to help us make concrete progress in Protocol design. There are more other issues, and we will discuss them after the circle of discussion. 1) Tracker protocol encoding, text or binary? At last meeting, David suggested to consider easy-reading encoding, like XML. I think it's reasonable. What's other persons' opinion? Lars suggests to make peer protocol to be similar to tracker protocol. So I guess the encoding decision we make will influence both protocols. 2) IP Address or PeerID for ID/NAT Traversal? Similarly, the decision on this issue will apply to both Tracker and Peer Protocol. If using PeerID for NAT Traversal, we can reuse NAT Traversal mechanism described in P2PSIP; if using IP Address, we can use ICE, with additional functionality deployed on Tracker and/or peers. Any comments are highly appreciated. BR Yingjie Gu --Boundary_(ID_V2m4El+tZBo+NzhcwgxgeQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

At IETF 79 meeting, we discussed some open = issues in Tracker protocol. However, because of time limitation, we don't have = enough discussion to make any decision on some of the most important issues. = The authors of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol and = draft-gu-ppsp-peer-protocol enumerate two of the open issues, which they think are very crucial to = both Tracker and Peer Protocol design.

We sincerely hope you can voice your opinion = on these two issues to help us make concrete progress in Protocol design. There = are more other issues, and we will discuss them after the circle of = discussion.

 

1)=C2=A0 Tracker protocol encoding, text or = binary? At last meeting, David suggested to consider easy-reading encoding, like XML. I = think it's reasonable. What's other persons' opinion? =

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Lars suggests to make peer = protocol to be similar to tracker protocol. So I guess the encoding decision we make will = influence both protocols.

 

2)=C2=A0 IP Address or PeerID for ID/NAT = Traversal? Similarly, the decision on this issue will apply = to both Tracker and Peer Protocol. If using PeerID for NAT Traversal, we can = reuse NAT Traversal mechanism described in P2PSIP; if using IP Address, we can use = ICE, with additional functionality deployed on Tracker and/or peers. =

 

 

Any comments are highly = appreciated.

 

BR

Yingjie Gu

--Boundary_(ID_V2m4El+tZBo+NzhcwgxgeQ)-- From lin.xiao@nsn.com Thu Feb 17 23:21:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC8C3A6CE5 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 23:21:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.306 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.306 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=4.408, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ui1AbzAAPQbj for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 23:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602B03A6CDA for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 23:21:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p1I7L4dQ010382 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:21:04 +0100 Received: from demuexc022.nsn-intra.net (demuexc022.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.35]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p1I7L0gL032589; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:21:04 +0100 Received: from CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.192.12]) by demuexc022.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:21:02 +0100 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CBCF3C.584051DF" Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 15:20:37 +0800 Message-ID: <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDBBC2B87@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: <001501cbcd7b$e09d7c80$35298a0a@china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Look forward to hear your opinion on Open Issues in TrackerProtocol Thread-Index: AcvNe+A0WeNpTW7+Q1OwnmhRVW+hfABvG+Eg References: <001501cbcd7b$e09d7c80$35298a0a@china.huawei.com> From: "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" To: "ext Y.J. GU" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2011 07:21:02.0435 (UTC) FILETIME=[65DFE330:01CBCF3C] Subject: Re: [ppsp] Look forward to hear your opinion on Open Issues in TrackerProtocol X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 07:21:13 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBCF3C.584051DF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yingjie, =20 Some comments in line. =20 Br Lin ________________________________ From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Y.J. GU Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:50 AM To: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] Look forward to hear your opinion on Open Issues in TrackerProtocol Hi all, At IETF 79 meeting, we discussed some open issues in Tracker protocol. However, because of time limitation, we don't have enough discussion to make any decision on some of the most important issues. The authors of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol and draft-gu-ppsp-peer-protocol enumerate two of the open issues, which they think are very crucial to both Tracker and Peer Protocol design. We sincerely hope you can voice your opinion on these two issues to help us make concrete progress in Protocol design. There are more other issues, and we will discuss them after the circle of discussion. =20 1) Tracker protocol encoding, text or binary? At last meeting, David suggested to consider easy-reading encoding, like XML. I think it's reasonable. What's other persons' opinion?=20 Lars suggests to make peer protocol to be similar to tracker protocol. So I guess the encoding decision we make will influence both protocols.=20 =20 [lin]: It's not a big issue. Both ways can work. If I must make a choice, I prefer text based. It's true that no matter which way to choose, both tracker protocol and peer protocol should follow to keep the same style. =20 2) IP Address or PeerID for ID/NAT Traversal? Similarly, the decision on this issue will apply to both Tracker and Peer Protocol. If using PeerID for NAT Traversal, we can reuse NAT Traversal mechanism described in P2PSIP; if using IP Address, we can use ICE, with additional functionality deployed on Tracker and/or peers.=20 =20 [lin]: Do we really need to touch the NAT traversal issue in PPSP? IMHO, PPSP is to define request/reply protocols (like HTTP) for communication between peers and tracker, and among peers. It's not a protocol for constructing a overlay network by connecting nodes like P2PSIP. So, we just need to define the message format and procedure between nodes, but don't care how these two nodes connected. Either Reload or pure ICE should work below the layer of PPSP.=20 For me, Both Peer ID and IP address should be supported in PPSP, not only for NAT traversal. Peer ID is the identity for a peer, IP is the locator in current IP network. With the mobility of a node, its IP may change, but the Peer ID is kept unchanged for consistency. For NAT traversal, Reload actually also use modified ICE. So, even if we use Reload message for NAT traversal, it does not mean the nodes should be organized and located by Reload. We'd better de-couple the ppsp with the overlay connection method. =20 =20 Any comments are highly appreciated. =20 BR Yingjie Gu ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBCF3C.584051DF Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Yingjie,
 
Some comments in line.
 
Br
Lin
From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Y.J. = GU
Sent:=20 Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:50 AM
To:=20 ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: [ppsp] Look forward to hear your = opinion on=20 Open Issues in TrackerProtocol

Hi all,

At IETF 79 meeting, we discussed some open issues in = Tracker=20 protocol. However, because of time limitation, we don't have enough = discussion=20 to make any decision on some of the most important issues. The authors = of=20 draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol and draft-gu-ppsp-peer-protocol enumerate = two of=20 the open issues, which they think are very crucial to both Tracker and = Peer=20 Protocol design.

We sincerely hope you can voice your opinion on these two = issues to=20 help us make concrete progress in Protocol design. There are more other = issues,=20 and we will discuss them after the circle of=20 discussion.

 

1)  Tracker protocol encoding, text or binary? At last = meeting,=20 David suggested to consider easy-reading encoding, like XML. I think = it's=20 reasonable. What's other persons' opinion?

    Lars suggests to make peer protocol to = be similar=20 to tracker protocol. So I guess the encoding decision we make will = influence=20 both protocols. 

 

[lin]: It's not a big issue. Both ways can work. = If I must make a=20 choice, I prefer text based. It's true that no matter which way to = choose, both=20 tracker protocol and peer protocol should follow to keep the same=20 style.


 

2)  IP Address or PeerID for ID/NAT Traversal? Similarly, the decision on this issue will apply = to both=20 Tracker and Peer Protocol. If using PeerID for NAT Traversal, we can = reuse NAT=20 Traversal mechanism described in P2PSIP; if using IP Address, we can use = ICE,=20 with additional functionality deployed on Tracker and/or peers.=20

 

 [lin]: Do we really need to touch the NAT = traversal issue in PPSP? IMHO,=20 PPSP is to define request/reply protocols (like HTTP) for=20 communication between peers and tracker, and among peers. It's not = a=20 protocol for constructing a overlay network by connecting = nodes like=20 P2PSIP. So, we just need to define the message format and procedure = between=20 nodes, but don't care how these two nodes connected. Either Reload or=20 pure ICE should work below the layer of PPSP.

For me, Both Peer ID and IP address should be = supported=20 in PPSP, not only for NAT traversal. Peer ID is the identity for a peer, = IP is=20 the locator in current IP network. With the mobility of a node, its IP = may=20 change, but the Peer ID is kept unchanged for consistency. For NAT = traversal,=20 Reload actually also use modified ICE. So, even if we use Reload message = for NAT=20 traversal, it does not mean the nodes should be organized and located by = Reload.=20 We'd better de-couple the ppsp with the overlay connection=20 method.

 

 

Any comments are highly = appreciated.

 

BR

Yingjie Gu

------_=_NextPart_001_01CBCF3C.584051DF-- From lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de Fri Feb 18 10:28:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 024553A6F43 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:28:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Igr+-IAj+aeO for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:28:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7852D3A6DF3 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:28:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from gwdexc-fe2.exc.top.gwdg.de ([134.76.26.172] helo=vsmtpgwdexc.exc.top.gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with smtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PqV4w-0004a8-OI; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 19:29:18 +0100 Received: from vs3.exc.top.gwdg.de ([134.76.26.193]) by vsmtpgwdexc.exc.top.gwdg.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 18 Feb 2011 19:29:18 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 19:29:18 +0100 Message-ID: <468D7B271219C542969F5137CB4D2BAE9E98A5@VS3.exc.top.gwdg.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Look forward to hear your opinion on Open Issues in TrackerProtocol Thread-Index: AcvNe+A0WeNpTW7+Q1OwnmhRVW+hfACHP0B4 References: <001501cbcd7b$e09d7c80$35298a0a@china.huawei.com> From: "Lei, Jun" To: "Y.J. GU" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2011 18:29:18.0517 (UTC) FILETIME=[C1007650:01CBCF99] X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Look forward to hear your opinion on Open Issues in TrackerProtocol X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 18:28:47 -0000 Hi, Yingjie and all, please see inline. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Dr. Jun Lei Research Associate Address: Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen Institut f=FCr Informatik Computer Networks Group Goldschmidtstr. 7 37077 G=F6ttingen Germany Fax: +49 (551) 39-1 44 03 Tel: +49 (6221) 32-77091 Email: lei@informatik.uni-goettingen.de -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Y.J. GU Sent: Wed 2/16/2011 2:50 To: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] Look forward to hear your opinion on Open Issues in TrackerProtocol =20 Hi all, At IETF 79 meeting, we discussed some open issues in Tracker protocol. However, because of time limitation, we don't have enough discussion to = make any decision on some of the most important issues. The authors of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol and draft-gu-ppsp-peer-protocol enumerate = two of the open issues, which they think are very crucial to both Tracker = and Peer Protocol design. We sincerely hope you can voice your opinion on these two issues to help = us make concrete progress in Protocol design. There are more other issues, = and we will discuss them after the circle of discussion. =20 1) Tracker protocol encoding, text or binary? At last meeting, David suggested to consider easy-reading encoding, like XML. I think it's reasonable. What's other persons' opinion?=20 Lars suggests to make peer protocol to be similar to tracker = protocol. So I guess the encoding decision we make will influence both protocols. =20 [Jun] I would agree that it is reasonable and common to use plain-text = based encoding, like XML. =20 2) IP Address or PeerID for ID/NAT Traversal? Similarly, the decision = on this issue will apply to both Tracker and Peer Protocol. If using PeerID = for NAT Traversal, we can reuse NAT Traversal mechanism described in P2PSIP; = if using IP Address, we can use ICE, with additional functionality deployed = on Tracker and/or peers.=20 [Jun] I would say it might not necessary to put the focus on this issue = as we can rely on existing technologies to solve it. We can leave it to = specific implementation.=20 =20 Any comments are highly appreciated. =20 BR Yingjie Gu From wang.wei108@zte.com.cn Sun Feb 20 17:44:57 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FFEA3A6F57 for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2011 17:44:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE=0.76, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id us4jLDu2v2WG for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2011 17:44:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx6.zte.com.cn [63.218.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2133A6EAC for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2011 17:44:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.34.0.130] by mx5.zte.com.cn with surfront esmtp id 3510790912505; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:43:23 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.30.3.20] by [192.168.168.16] with StormMail ESMTP id 50584.2836501774; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:36:42 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id p1L1jRD2071879; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:45:28 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from wang.wei108@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDBBC2B87@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> To: "ext Y.J. GU" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: BF594A6B:1016ED72-4825783E:00080E27; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.6 March 06, 2007 Message-ID: From: wang.wei108@zte.com.cn Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:42:17 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.1FP4|July 25, 2010) at 2011-02-21 09:45:27, Serialize complete at 2011-02-21 09:45:27 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0009A75F4825783E_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn p1L1jRD2071879 Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogUmU6ICBMb29rIGZvcndhcmQgdG8gaGVhciB5?= =?gb2312?b?b3VyIG9waW5pb24gb24gT3BlbiBJc3N1ZXMgaW4JVHJhY2tlclByb3RvY29s?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 01:44:57 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 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HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tk3O-g6ebXrc for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2011 18:44:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3993A6F7D for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2011 18:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LGY007G84ZBP5@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:45:12 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml201-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LGY00FXB4ZB48@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:45:11 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.32) by szxeml201-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.39) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:45:08 +0800 Received: from g00107907 (10.138.41.53) by SZXEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:45:10 +0800 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:46:51 +0800 From: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.53] To: wang.wei108@zte.com.cn Message-id: <000601cbd171$97bb5f60$35298a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_nMZh2g2XN5uw1PNVU3Y0uQ)" Thread-index: AcvRaUUGa1DRWZa+T2yvfyJ/Q7+i0gAB2FhQ Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Look forward to hear your opinion on Open Issues in TrackerProtocol X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 02:44:55 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_nMZh2g2XN5uw1PNVU3Y0uQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Lin, Jun and Wei for your comments. Could you please voice your considerations for choosing Text-based = encoding? I guess there might be persons who prefer Binary encoding, = e.g. for mobile peers. So we need to consider the pros and cons of both. = =20 Hope to hear others=E2=80=99 opinion too. =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 From: wang.wei108@zte.com.cn [mailto:wang.wei108@zte.com.cn]=20 Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 9:42 AM To: ext Y.J. GU Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: [ppsp] Look forward to hear your = opinion on Open Issues in TrackerProtocol =20 Hi Yingjie and all,=20 For the first issue, I think human readable format like XML=20 may be better.=20 For the second issue, I agree with Lin. We may not touch the NAT=20 issue here. But, we should provide flexibility in the tracker/peer=20 protocol design, so that necessary information for different solutions=20 could be transferred. For example, maybe both PeerID and IP addresses=20 (of different types) cloud be used as Peer identities in the peer list.=20 Best Regards=20 Wei=20 ppsp-bounces@ietf.org =E5=86=99=E4=BA=8E 2011-02-18 15:20:37: > Hi Yingjie,=20 > =20 > Some comments in line.=20 > =20 > Br=20 > Lin=20 > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of=20 > ext Y.J. GU > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:50 AM > To: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] Look forward to hear your opinion on Open Issues in=20 > TrackerProtocol > Hi all,=20 > At IETF 79 meeting, we discussed some open issues in Tracker=20 > protocol. However, because of time limitation, we don't have enough=20 > discussion to make any decision on some of the most important=20 > issues. The authors of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol and draft-gu- > ppsp-peer-protocol enumerate two of the open issues, which they=20 > think are very crucial to both Tracker and Peer Protocol design.=20 > We sincerely hope you can voice your opinion on these two issues to=20 > help us make concrete progress in Protocol design. There are more=20 > other issues, and we will discuss them after the circle of discussion. = > =20 > 1) Tracker protocol encoding, text or binary? At last meeting,=20 > David suggested to consider easy-reading encoding, like XML. I think > it's reasonable. What's other persons' opinion?=20 > Lars suggests to make peer protocol to be similar to tracker=20 > protocol. So I guess the encoding decision we make will influence=20 > both protocols.=20 > =20 > [lin]: It's not a big issue. Both ways can work. If I must make a=20 > choice, I prefer text based. It's true that no matter which way to=20 > choose, both tracker protocol and peer protocol should follow to=20 > keep the same style.=20 >=20 > =20 > 2) IP Address or PeerID for ID/NAT Traversal? Similarly, the=20 > decision on this issue will apply to both Tracker and Peer Protocol. > If using PeerID for NAT Traversal, we can reuse NAT Traversal=20 > mechanism described in P2PSIP; if using IP Address, we can use ICE,=20 > with additional functionality deployed on Tracker and/or peers.=20 > =20 > [lin]: Do we really need to touch the NAT traversal issue in PPSP?=20 > IMHO, PPSP is to define request/reply protocols (like HTTP) for=20 > communication between peers and tracker, and among peers. It's not a > protocol for constructing a overlay network by connecting nodes like > P2PSIP. So, we just need to define the message format and procedure=20 > between nodes, but don't care how these two nodes connected. Either=20 > Reload or pure ICE should work below the layer of PPSP.=20 > For me, Both Peer ID and IP address should be supported in PPSP, not > only for NAT traversal. Peer ID is the identity for a peer, IP is=20 > the locator in current IP network. With the mobility of a node, its=20 > IP may change, but the Peer ID is kept unchanged for consistency.=20 > For NAT traversal, Reload actually also use modified ICE. So, even=20 > if we use Reload message for NAT traversal, it does not mean the=20 > nodes should be organized and located by Reload. We'd better de- > couple the ppsp with the overlay connection method.=20 > =20 > =20 > Any comments are highly appreciated.=20 > =20 > BR=20 > Yingjie Gu_______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp =20 -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system. --Boundary_(ID_nMZh2g2XN5uw1PNVU3Y0uQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks Lin, Jun = and Wei for your comments.

Could you please = voice your considerations for choosing Text-based encoding? I guess there = might be persons who prefer Binary encoding, e.g. for mobile peers. So we need to consider the pros and cons of both.

 =

Hope to hear = others=E2=80=99 opinion too.

 =

 =

 =

From: wang.wei108@zte.com.cn [mailto:wang.wei108@zte.com.cn]
Sent: Monday, February = 21, 2011 9:42 AM
To: ext Y.J. GU
Cc: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: = =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: [ppsp] = Look forward to hear your opinion on Open Issues in = TrackerProtocol

 



Hi Yingjie and all,

    For the first issue, I think human readable format like XML
may be better. =

    For the second issue, I agree with = Lin. We may not touch the NAT
issue here. But, we should provide flexibility = in the tracker/peer
protocol design, so that necessary information = for different solutions
could be transferred. For example, maybe both = PeerID and IP addresses
(of different types) cloud be used as Peer = identities in the peer list.

Best Regards =
Wei


ppsp-bounces@ietf.org =E5=86=99=E4=BA=8E 2011-02-18 15:20:37:

> Hi = Yingjie,
>  
> Some comments in line.
>  
> Br
> Lin
> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
> ext Y.J. GU
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, = 2011 9:50 AM
> To: = ppsp@ietf.org
> Subject: [ppsp] Look forward to = hear your opinion on Open Issues in
> TrackerProtocol

> Hi all,
> At IETF 79 meeting, we discussed some open issues in Tracker =
> protocol. However, because of = time limitation, we don't have enough
> discussion to make any decision = on some of the most important
> issues. The authors of = draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol and draft-gu-
> ppsp-peer-protocol enumerate = two of the open issues, which they
> think are very crucial to both = Tracker and Peer Protocol design.
> We sincerely hope you can voice your opinion on these two issues to =
> help us make concrete progress = in Protocol design. There are more
> other issues, and we will = discuss them after the circle of discussion.
>  
> 1)  Tracker protocol encoding, text or binary? At last meeting, =
> David suggested to consider = easy-reading encoding, like XML. I think
> it's reasonable. What's other = persons' opinion?
>     Lars suggests to make peer protocol to be similar to = tracker
> protocol. So I guess the = encoding decision we make will influence
> both protocols. =
>  
> [lin]: It's not a big issue. Both ways can work. If I must make a =
> choice, I prefer text based. = It's true that no matter which way to
> choose, both tracker protocol = and peer protocol should follow to
> keep the same = style.
>
> =  
> 2)  IP Address or PeerID for ID/NAT Traversal? Similarly, the =
> decision on this issue will = apply to both Tracker and Peer Protocol.
> If using PeerID for NAT = Traversal, we can reuse NAT Traversal
> mechanism described in P2PSIP; = if using IP Address, we can use ICE,
> with additional functionality = deployed on Tracker and/or peers.
>  
>  [lin]: Do we really need to touch the NAT traversal issue in PPSP? =
> IMHO, PPSP is to define = request/reply protocols (like HTTP) for
> communication between peers and = tracker, and among peers. It's not a
> protocol for constructing a = overlay network by connecting nodes like
> P2PSIP. So, we just need to = define the message format and procedure
> between nodes, but don't care = how these two nodes connected. Either
> Reload or pure ICE should work = below the layer of PPSP.
> For me, Both Peer ID and IP address should be supported in PPSP, = not
> only for NAT traversal. Peer ID = is the identity for a peer, IP is
> the locator in current IP = network. With the mobility of a node, its
> IP may change, but the Peer ID = is kept unchanged for consistency.
> For NAT traversal, Reload = actually also use modified ICE. So, even
> if we use Reload message for = NAT traversal, it does not mean the
> nodes should be organized and = located by Reload. We'd better de-
> couple the ppsp with the = overlay connection method.
>  
>  
> Any comments are highly appreciated.
>  
> BR
> Yingjie = Gu_______________________________________________
> ppsp mailing = list
> ppsp@ietf.org
> = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

 
----------------------------------------------=
----------
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bsp;maintain secrecy and are not permitted =
to disclose the contents of this communicat=
ion to others.
This email and any files&n=
bsp;transmitted with it are confidential and&nbs=
p;intended solely for the use of the i=
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Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Look forward to hear your opinion on Open Issues in TrackerProtocol X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 03:33:34 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0013984B4825783F_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgWWluZ2ppZaOsDQoNCiAgICBJTUhPLCBIdHRwL1hNTCBpcyBtb3JlIHByZWZlcmFibGUgZm9y IHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgcmVhc29uczogDQoNCjEuIEh0dHAvWE1MIGlzIHdpZGVseSB1c2VkIGZv ciBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbiBwcm90b2NvbCBkZXZlbG9wbWVudC4gRXhpc3RpbmcgDQpwcm90b2NvbCBz dGFja3MNCmFuZCBsaWJyYXJpZXMgd291bGQgZ3JlYXRseSByZWR1Y2UgZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQgY29z dCBmb3IgYm90aCB0aGUgdHJhY2tlciANCmFuZCBwZWVyLiANCkl0IGlzIGFsc28gdmVyeSBmbGV4 aWJsZSBhbmQgZWFzeSB0byBleHRlbmQuDQoNCjIuIElmIHdlIGFkb3B0IHRoZSBSRVNUIGFyY2hp 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YXJlJm5ic3A7dGhvc2UmbmJzcDtvZiZuYnNwO3RoZSZuYnNwO2luZGl2aWR1YWwmbmJzcDtzZW5k ZXIuDQpUaGlzJm5ic3A7bWVzc2FnZSZuYnNwO2hhcyZuYnNwO2JlZW4mbmJzcDtzY2FubmVkJm5i c3A7Zm9yJm5ic3A7dmlydXNlcyZuYnNwO2FuZCZuYnNwO1NwYW0mbmJzcDtieSZuYnNwO1pURSZu YnNwO0FudGktU3BhbSZuYnNwO3N5c3RlbS4NCjwvcHJlPg== --=_alternative 0013984B4825783F_=-- From lin.xiao@nsn.com Tue Feb 22 18:20:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED063A67B6 for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2011 18:20:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.647, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bq1id+IJ8dSN for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2011 18:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734B53A67B4 for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2011 18:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p1N2LTuV008546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 03:21:29 +0100 Received: from demuexc025.nsn-intra.net (demuexc025.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.12]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p1N2LSNY005843 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 03:21:28 +0100 Received: from CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.192.12]) by demuexc025.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 23 Feb 2011 03:21:28 +0100 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:21:04 +0800 Message-ID: <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDBC4F186@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-xiao-ppsp-reload-distributed-tracker-01 Thread-Index: AcvSiPnZXvXO3RJpSQ2U0jBoROpjkgAdrvcg From: "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Feb 2011 02:21:28.0874 (UTC) FILETIME=[60DCE0A0:01CBD300] Subject: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-xiao-ppsp-reload-distributed-tracker-01 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 02:20:45 -0000 Hi, We have submitted a new version of distributed tracker draft. Please find it at http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ppsp-reload-distributed-tracker-01 Comments are welcome! Best Regards, Lin -----Original Message----- From: ext IETF I-D Submission Tool [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 8:06 PM To: taixuanyueshi@gmail.com Cc: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); dbryan@ethernot.org; guyingjie@huawei.com Subject: New Version Notification for draft-xiao-ppsp-reload-distributed-tracker-01=20 A new version of I-D, draft-xiao-ppsp-reload-distributed-tracker-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Xuan Tai and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-xiao-ppsp-reload-distributed-tracker Revision: 01 Title: A PPSP Tracker Usage for Reload Creation_date: 2011-02-22 WG ID: Independent Submission Number_of_pages: 14 Abstract: This document defines PPSP tracker usages for REsource LOcation And Discovery (RELOAD). Although PPSP assumes a centralized tracker from peer's point of view, the logical centralized tracker could be realized by a cluster of geographically distributed trackers. In this draft, we design distributed trackers system, which are organized by RELOAD. It provides lookup service for file/channel indexes and Peer Status among the distributed trackers. =20 The IETF Secretariat. From zongning@huawei.com Wed Feb 23 00:44:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB733A6809 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 00:44:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.712 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.712 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=4.104, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GjDlXPISwnhU for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 00:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5C63A67E3 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 00:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LH20031GAWSTJ@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 16:43:40 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LH200CO2AWS1A@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 16:43:40 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316a ([10.138.41.31]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LH200J76AWP59@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 16:43:40 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 16:43:37 +0800 From: Ning Zong To: ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <005001cbd335$c3533a10$49f9ae30$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-language: zh-cn Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcvTM5b6b+waz/oQTVueNaz5Dzo55wAAHDvQ Subject: [ppsp] =?utf-8?b?6L2s5Y+ROiBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9y?= =?utf-8?q?_draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:44:06 -0000 Hi, folks, A new revision of PPSP requirements has been uploaded as: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02 The main differences between -02 and -01 can be found in: http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02.txt Basically, most of the changes reflect the discussion on the mailing = list. Thanks again to Lars, Yingjie, Lin for their comments and = suggestions. Because some issues that are still open, any further comments and = discussions are highly appreciated. I expect to do another pass of the = draft and submit a new version (if necessary) before the Prague meeting. BR, Ning Zong -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: IETF I-D Submission Tool = [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org]=20 =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2011=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 = 16:27 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: zongning@huawei.com =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com; = victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; lin.xiao@nsn.com =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02 A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02.txt has been successfully = submitted by Ning Zong and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs Revision: 02 Title: P2P Streaming Protocol (PPSP) Requirements Creation_date: 2011-02-23 WG ID: ppsp Number_of_pages: 12 Abstract: The objective of the PPSP work is to standardize the key signaling protocols that apply to tracker and peers in a Peer-to-Peer (P2P) streaming system. These protocols are called PPSP. This document enumerates the requirements for the PPSP, which should be considered when designing PPSP. = =20 The IETF Secretariat. From zongning@huawei.com Thu Feb 24 01:54:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2933A6A34 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 01:54:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.738 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.738 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.078, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dxLP9Enb+E70 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 01:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3AA63A6843 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 01:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LH400J8Z8RHYQ@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 17:52:30 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LH40050V8RHXG@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 17:52:29 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316a ([10.138.41.31]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LH400DU08RDQW@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 17:52:29 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 17:52:25 +0800 From: Ning Zong To: ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <00a101cbd408$8a8e7590$9fab60b0$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-language: zh-cn Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcvTM5b6b+waz/oQTVueNaz5Dzo55wAAHDvQADUdkLA= Subject: [ppsp] =?utf-8?b?6L2s5Y+ROiBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9y?= =?utf-8?q?_draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 09:54:22 -0000 Re-send. Sorry for duplication. -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Ning Zong [mailto:zongning@huawei.com]=20 =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2011=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 = 16:44 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: 'ppsp@ietf.org' =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: =E8=BD=AC=E5=8F=91: New Version Notification for = draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02 Hi, folks, A new revision of PPSP requirements has been uploaded as: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02 The main differences between -02 and -01 can be found in: http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02.txt Basically, most of the changes reflect the discussion on the mailing = list. Thanks again to Lars, Yingjie, Lin for their comments and = suggestions. Because some issues that are still open, any further comments and = discussions are highly appreciated. I expect to do another pass of the = draft and submit a new version (if necessary) before the Prague meeting. BR, Ning Zong -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: IETF I-D Submission Tool = [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org]=20 =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2011=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 = 16:27 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: zongning@huawei.com =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com; = victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; lin.xiao@nsn.com =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02 A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02.txt has been successfully = submitted by Ning Zong and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs Revision: 02 Title: P2P Streaming Protocol (PPSP) Requirements Creation_date: 2011-02-23 WG ID: ppsp Number_of_pages: 12 Abstract: The objective of the PPSP work is to standardize the key signaling protocols that apply to tracker and peers in a Peer-to-Peer (P2P) streaming system. These protocols are called PPSP. This document enumerates the requirements for the PPSP, which should be considered when designing PPSP. = =20 The IETF Secretariat. From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Thu Feb 24 04:36:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC543A6AD6 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 04:36:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fM4nAMSE7J54 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 04:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA3B3A6AD7 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 04:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p1OCbANl025795 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:37:10 +0100 Received: from demuexc025.nsn-intra.net (demuexc025.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.12]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p1OCb6c6018979; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:37:10 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc025.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:37:07 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CBD41F.8C72F0B4" Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:37:05 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <201102151000498905239@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 5 Thread-Index: AcvMtEPEmNRn+yPTQ+ClbxGwB3Ot6QHZwv/Q References: <201101180955204217745@chinamobile.com> <201101181419275009728@chinamobile.com> <201101311644379687165@chinamobile.com> <201102151000498905239@chinamobile.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext zhangyunfei" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Feb 2011 12:37:07.0943 (UTC) FILETIME=[8CAD3F70:01CBD41F] Subject: [ppsp] Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 5 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 12:36:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBD41F.8C72F0B4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yunfei, =20 some more thoughts on the problem statement ID. =20 Security Considerations =20 (1) "PPSP will not attempt to provide a solution on security and copyright issues like malicious content distribution, content pollution and DRM for a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP security considerations involve the security problems related to PPSP protocols." =20 CS: This provides the wrong impression, that the draft do not care about security issues, caused by the p2p technology, e.g. distributed and untrusted peers. =20 Proposal: "PPSP will not attempt to provide a solution on security and copyright issues like malicious content distribution, content pollution and DRM for a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP security considerations involve the security problems related to the introduction=20 of p2p technology (e.g. usage of untrusted peers) and the used PPSP protocols." =20 (2) " Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to the trackers by sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. Distributed trackers deployment may alleviate the problem." =20 CS: Can you please explain, why you are in the opinion, that distributed trackers can alleviate the problem? It even could increase the problem, because now you can attack the distributed parts of the tracker simultaneously. Which makes thinks worse. =20 (3) "On the other hand, malicious peers may report fake information (e.g., cheating trackers and other peers by claiming itself owning some unexisting data). =20 CS: Delete the first part of the sentence, it is without information: =20 Proposal: "Malicious peers may report fake information (e.g., cheating trackers and other peers by claiming itself owning some unexisting data)." =20 (4) "So it may be optional in some cases to realize authentication to the peers before accepting the request for the tracker. But this may add up the tracker's workload on authentication." =20 CS: Proposal for rewording: =20 "In some cases peer authentication for tracker contact may be needed. But this may increase the tracker's workload." =20 =20 (5) "Similar to the behavior in the tracker-peer interaction, malicious peers may also create fake information on chunk availability and exchange it with other peers. Some techniques to check the data integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for detecting the data. But this part is out of scope of PPSP." =20 CS: I do not thing, that it is a good idea to declare this out of scope here, because it is a fundamental question for p2p streaming. We should provide more information here. For example, how checksums could be used for this purpose. What level of security can be achieved and what is the remaining risk. =20 Best Regards Christian =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBD41F.8C72F0B4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Yunfei,

 

some more thoughts on the problem statement = ID.

 

Security Considerations

 

(1)    “PPSP will not attempt to provide a = solution on security and copyright

   issues like malicious content distribution, content = pollution and DRM

   for a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP = security

   considerations involve the security problems related to = PPSP

   protocols.”

 

C= S: This provides the wrong impression, that the draft do not care about = security issues, caused by the p2p technology, e.g. distributed and = untrusted peers.

 

Proposal:

   “PPSP will not attempt to provide a solution on = security and copyright

   issues like malicious content distribution, content = pollution and DRM

   for a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP = security

   considerations involve the security problems related to = t= he introduction

&= nbsp;  of p2p technology (e.g. usage of untrusted peers) = and the used PPSP protocols.”

 

(2)   “ Malicious peers may issue denial of service = attack to the trackers by

   sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. = Distributed

   trackers deployment may alleviate the = problem.”

 

C= S: Can you please explain, why you are in the opinion, that distributed = trackers can alleviate the problem? It even could increase the problem, = because now you can attack the distributed parts of the tracker = simultaneously. Which makes thinks worse.

 

(3)  “On the other hand, malicious peers may report fake = information (e.g.,

   cheating trackers and other peers by claiming itself = owning some

   unexisting data).

 

C= S: Delete the first part of the sentence, it is without = information:

 

Proposal:

   “Malicious peers may report fake information = (e.g.,

   cheating trackers and other peers by claiming itself = owning some

   unexisting data).”

 

(4)  “So it may be optional in some cases to realize = authentication to the

   peers before accepting the request for the tracker. But = this may add

   up the tracker's workload on = authentication.”

 

C= S: Proposal for rewording:

 

   “In some cases peer authentication for tracker = contact may be needed. But this may increase

   the tracker's workload.”

 

 

(5)  “Similar to the behavior in the tracker-peer = interaction, malicious

   peers may also create fake information on chunk = availability and

   exchange it with other peers. Some techniques to check = the data

   integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for = detecting the data.

   But this part is out of scope of = PPSP.”

 

C= S: I do not thing, that it is a good idea to declare this out of scope = here, because it is a fundamental question for p2p streaming. We should = provide more information here.

F= or example, how checksums could be used for this purpose. What level of = security can be achieved and what is the remaining = risk.

<= o:p> 

B= est Regards

C= hristian

 

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CBD41F.8C72F0B4-- From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Thu Feb 24 04:55:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 136C13A6AE4 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 04:55:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1uOCBnkWiZlG for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 04:55:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA5C3A6ADE for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 04:55:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p1OCuBZj009957 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:56:11 +0100 Received: from demuexc024.nsn-intra.net (demuexc024.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.11]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p1OCuBP8011008; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:56:11 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc024.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:56:06 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CBD422.333A5863" Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:56:05 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Draft-ietf-ppsp-req-01 Thread-Index: AcvMtEPEmNRn+yPTQ+ClbxGwB3Ot6QHZwv/QAAFhUqA= References: <201101180955204217745@chinamobile.com> <201101181419275009728@chinamobile.com> <201101311644379687165@chinamobile.com> <201102151000498905239@chinamobile.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext zhangyunfei" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Feb 2011 12:56:06.0752 (UTC) FILETIME=[3375B600:01CBD422] Subject: [ppsp] Draft-ietf-ppsp-req-01 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 12:55:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBD422.333A5863 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yunfei, =20 a proposal related to PPSP.REQ-7: =20 "PPSP.REQ-7: The Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol SHOULD enable peers to receive streaming data within the time constraints required by specific content items." =20 CS: We should be a little bit more specific here. I think, that delay will be the most critical QoS issues, especially for p2p live streaming. We should add: =20 Proposal: "PPSP.REQ-7: The Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol SHOULD enable peers to receive streaming data within the time constraints required by specific content items. End to end delay will become critical in case of live streaming. Especially In provisioning of sports events,=20 end to end delay of 1 minute and more seems to be not acceptable." =20 What do you think about? Best Regards Christian =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBD422.333A5863 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Yunfei,

 

a proposal related to PPSP.REQ-7:

 

   “PPSP.REQ-7: The Tracker Protocol and Peer = Protocol SHOULD enable

   peers to receive streaming data within the time = constraints required

   by specific content = items.”

 

C= S: We should be a little bit more specific here. I think, that delay = will

b= e the most critical QoS issues, especially for p2p live = streaming.

W= e should add:

 

Proposal:

   “PPSP.REQ-7: The Tracker Protocol and Peer = Protocol SHOULD enable

   peers to receive streaming data within the time = constraints required

   by specific content items. E= nd to end delay will become critical in case

&= nbsp;  of live streaming. Especially In provisioning of sports = events,

&= nbsp; end to end delay of 1 minute and more seems to be not = acceptable.”

 

What do you think about?

Best Regards

Christian

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CBD422.333A5863-- From zongning@huawei.com Thu Feb 24 16:27:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEAEB3A635F for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:27:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.846, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9L1rnJGxTaMm for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:27:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605723A67F0 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:27:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LH500BDQDAFD2@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:27:51 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LH500HI9DAFWL@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:27:51 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316a ([10.138.41.31]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LH5000TJDAAG2@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:27:51 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:27:46 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: To: "'Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)'" , 'ext zhangyunfei' , ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <007801cbd482$d39d9cf0$7ad8d6d0$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ArR0ce2yNCJT1lU7peOVNA)" Content-language: zh-cn Thread-index: AcvMtEPEmNRn+yPTQ+ClbxGwB3Ot6QHZwv/QAAFhUqAAGE8+0A== References: <201101180955204217745@chinamobile.com> <201101181419275009728@chinamobile.com> <201101311644379687165@chinamobile.com> <201102151000498905239@chinamobile.com> Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIERyYWZ0LWlldGYtcHBzcC1yZXEtMDE=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 00:27:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ArR0ce2yNCJT1lU7peOVNA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Schmidt, =20 Your suggestion is good, although I think this new text could be in explanatory text rather than in the formal requirement body. BTW, I have post a new revision -02 and forward the message to the list, = but it seems that it doesn=A1=AFt come out. So I attached the link to the = new version as below =20 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02 The main differences between -02 and -01 can be found in: http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02.txt =20 BR, Ning Zong =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA2=D4=C224=C8=D5 20:56 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: [ppsp] Draft-ietf-ppsp-req-01 =20 Hi Yunfei, =20 a proposal related to PPSP.REQ-7: =20 =A1=B0PPSP.REQ-7: The Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol SHOULD = enable peers to receive streaming data within the time constraints required by specific content items.=A1=B1 =20 CS: We should be a little bit more specific here. I think, that delay = will be the most critical QoS issues, especially for p2p live streaming. We should add: =20 Proposal: =A1=B0PPSP.REQ-7: The Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol SHOULD = enable peers to receive streaming data within the time constraints required by specific content items. End to end delay will become critical in = case of live streaming. Especially In provisioning of sports events,=20 end to end delay of 1 minute and more seems to be not = acceptable.=A1=B1 =20 What do you think about? Best Regards Christian =20 --Boundary_(ID_ArR0ce2yNCJT1lU7peOVNA) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, = Schmidt,

 

Your = suggestion is good, although I think this new text could be in = explanatory text rather than in the formal requirement = body.

BTW, I have = post a new revision -02 and forward the message to the list, but it = seems that it doesn=A1=AFt come out. So I attached the link to the new = version as below

 

http://tools.= ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02

The main differences between -02 = and -01 can be found in:

http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02.txt

 

BR,=

Ning = Zong

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.= org] =B4=FA=B1=ED = Schmidt, Christian = 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC= =E4: 2011=C4=EA2=D4=C224=C8=D5 20:56
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= : [ppsp] = Draft-ietf-ppsp-req-01

 

Hi Yunfei,

 

a proposal related to PPSP.REQ-7:

 

   =A1=B0PPSP.REQ-7: The Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol = SHOULD enable

   peers to receive streaming data within the time = constraints required

   by specific content items.=A1=B1

 

C= S: We should be a little bit more specific here. I think, that delay = will

b= e the most critical QoS issues, especially for p2p live = streaming.

W= e should add:

 

Proposal:

   =A1=B0PPSP.REQ-7: The Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol = SHOULD enable

   peers to receive streaming data within the time = constraints required

   by specific content items. E= nd to end delay will become critical in case

&= nbsp;  of live streaming. Especially In provisioning of sports = events,

&= nbsp; end to end delay of 1 minute and more seems to be not = acceptable.=A1=B1

 

What do you think about?

Best Regards

Christian

 

= --Boundary_(ID_ArR0ce2yNCJT1lU7peOVNA)-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Fri Feb 25 01:37:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A73363A692F for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 01:37:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.472, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x3619qkkZZ9b for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 01:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (hqmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2790B3A67E7 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 01:37:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.imsstest.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B59421DAF; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 17:38:01 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by hqmta.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D5A321DA8; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 17:38:01 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.0.201]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011022517375934-14439 ; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 17:37:59 +0800 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 17:37:54 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <201101180955204217745@chinamobile.com> <201101181419275009728@chinamobile.com> <201101311644379687165@chinamobile.com> <201102151000498905239@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <201102251737543564278@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-02-25 17:37:59, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-02-25 17:38:00, Serialize complete at 2011-02-25 17:38:00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon531354140603_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.5.0.1024-17976.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--18.591-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--18.591-7.0-31-10;No--18.591-5.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 5 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:37:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon531354140603_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgQ2hyaXNpdGlhbiwNCiAgIFRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIHJldmlldy5QbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGlubGlu ZSBmb3IgdGhlIHJlcGx5Lg0KDQpCUg0KWXVuZmVpDQoNCg0KDQoNCnpoYW5neXVuZmVpDQoyMDEx LTAyLTI1DQoNCg0KDQq3orz+yMujuiBTY2htaWR0LCBDaHJpc3RpYW4gMS4gKE5TTiAtIERFL011 bmljaCkNCreiy83Ksbzko7ogMjAxMS0wMi0yNCAyMDozNzoyOQ0KytW8/sjLo7ogZXh0IHpoYW5n eXVuZmVpOyBwcHNwQGlldGYub3JnDQqzrcvNo7ogDQrW98zio7ogUmV2aWV3OiBkcmFmdC1pZXRm LXBwMnAtcHJvYmxlbS1zdGF0ZW1lbnQtMDEgLyBTZWN0aW9uIDUNCg0KSGkgWXVuZmVpLA0KIA0K c29tZSBtb3JlIHRob3VnaHRzIG9uIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIHN0YXRlbWVudCBJRC4NCiANClNlY3Vy aXR5IENvbnNpZGVyYXRpb25zDQogDQooMSkgICAgobBQUFNQIHdpbGwgbm90IGF0dGVtcHQgdG8g 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Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E8F3A699A for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 04:18:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.373 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.373 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FMmco-l7nhPK for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 04:18:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 382D03A6841 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 04:18:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p1PCJDN0008093 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:19:13 +0100 Received: from demuexc025.nsn-intra.net (demuexc025.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.12]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p1PCJ7Vu029252; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:19:13 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc025.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:19:10 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CBD4E6.350B6717" Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:18:58 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <201102251737543564278@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 5 Thread-Index: AcvUz7ZvMkdapvhHRnWoPmVpwCbFRQAFHC1w References: <201101180955204217745@chinamobile.com> <201101181419275009728@chinamobile.com> <201101311644379687165@chinamobile.com> <201102151000498905239@chinamobile.com> <201102251737543564278@chinamobile.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext zhangyunfei" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Feb 2011 12:19:10.0969 (UTC) FILETIME=[3529CE90:01CBD4E6] Subject: Re: [ppsp] Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 5 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 12:18:38 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBD4E6.350B6717 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yunfei =20 (2) =A1=B0 Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to the = trackers by sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. Distributed trackers deployment may alleviate the problem.=A1=B1 =20 CS: Can you please explain, why you are in the opinion, that distributed = trackers can alleviate the problem? It even could increase the problem, = because now you can attack the distributed parts of the tracker = simultaneously. Which makes thinks worse. =20 Yunfei: The rational is that distributed trackers disperse the DoS = attack to a specific tracker in centralized tracker senario. Therefore = the attack to one certain tracker is alleviated.Does it make sense? =20 CS: I see, what about the following text proposal: =20 (2) =A1=B0 Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to the = trackers by sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. In case of a = distributed tracker the attack to some of these entities may not interrupt the = service.=A1=B1 =20 Best Regards Christian =20 =20 =20 From: ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]=20 Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 10:38 AM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 5 =20 Hi Chrisitian, Thanks for the review.Please see inline for the reply. =20 BR Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-02-25 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-02-24 20:37:29 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / = Section 5 =20 Hi Yunfei, =20 some more thoughts on the problem statement ID. =20 Security Considerations =20 (1) =A1=B0PPSP will not attempt to provide a solution on security and = copyright issues like malicious content distribution, content pollution and DRM for a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP security considerations involve the security problems related to PPSP protocols.=A1=B1 =20 CS: This provides the wrong impression, that the draft do not care about = security issues, caused by the p2p technology, e.g. distributed and = untrusted peers. =20 =20 Proposal: =A1=B0PPSP will not attempt to provide a solution on security and = copyright issues like malicious content distribution, content pollution and DRM for a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP security considerations involve the security problems related to the = introduction=20 of p2p technology (e.g. usage of untrusted peers) and the used PPSP = protocols.=A1=B1 =20 Yunfei:I am fine with this revision. =20 (2) =A1=B0 Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to the = trackers by sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. Distributed trackers deployment may alleviate the problem.=A1=B1 =20 CS: Can you please explain, why you are in the opinion, that distributed = trackers can alleviate the problem? It even could increase the problem, = because now you can attack the distributed parts of the tracker = simultaneously. Which makes thinks worse. =20 Yunfei: The rational is that distributed trackers disperse the DoS = attack to a specific tracker in centralized tracker senario. Therefore = the attack to one certain tracker is alleviated.Does it make sense? =20 (3) =A1=B0On the other hand, malicious peers may report fake = information (e.g., cheating trackers and other peers by claiming itself owning some unexisting data). =20 CS: Delete the first part of the sentence, it is without information: =20 Proposal: =A1=B0Malicious peers may report fake information (e.g., cheating trackers and other peers by claiming itself owning some unexisting data).=A1=B1 =20 Yunfei:I am fine with this revision. =20 (4) =A1=B0So it may be optional in some cases to realize authentication = to the peers before accepting the request for the tracker. But this may add up the tracker's workload on authentication.=A1=B1 =20 CS: Proposal for rewording: =20 =A1=B0In some cases peer authentication for tracker contact may be = needed. But this may increase the tracker's workload.=A1=B1 Yunfei:Good. =20 =20 (5) =A1=B0Similar to the behavior in the tracker-peer interaction, = malicious peers may also create fake information on chunk availability and exchange it with other peers. Some techniques to check the data integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for detecting the = data. But this part is out of scope of PPSP.=A1=B1 =20 CS: I do not thing, that it is a good idea to declare this out of scope = here, because it is a fundamental question for p2p streaming. We should = provide more information here. For example, how checksums could be used for this purpose. What level of = security can be achieved and what is the remaining risk. Yunfei: I am okay if PPSP guys believe this is a fundamental task of = PPSP. I would like to see more comments on this part.=20 =20 Best Regards Christian =20 Thanks, Yunfei =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBD4E6.350B6717 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Yunfei

 

(2)   =A1=B0 Malicious peers may issue denial of service = attack to the trackers by

   sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. = Distributed

   trackers deployment may alleviate the = problem.=A1=B1

 

C= S: Can you please explain, why you are in the opinion, that distributed = trackers can alleviate the problem? It even could increase the problem, = because now you can attack the distributed parts of the tracker = simultaneously. Which makes thinks worse.

 

= Yunfei: The rational is that distributed trackers disperse the DoS = attack to a specific tracker in centralized tracker senario. = Therefore the attack to one certain tracker is alleviated.Does it make = sense?

 

CS: I see, what about the following text = proposal:

 

(2)   =A1=B0 Malicious peers may issue denial of service = attack to the trackers by

   sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. = In case of a distributed

   tracker the attack to some of these entities may not = interrupt the service.=A1=B1

 

Best Regards

Christian

 

 

 

From:= = ext zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
Sent: = Friday, February 25, 2011 10:38 AM
To: Schmidt, Christian 1. = (NSN - DE/Munich); ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Review: = draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section = 5

 

= Hi Chrisitian,

=    Thanks for the review.Please see inline for the = reply.

 

= BR

= Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-02-25

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, = Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3= =BA = 2011-02-24 20:37:29

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext = zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Review: = draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 5

 

Hi Yunfei,

 

some more thoughts on the problem statement = ID.

 

Security Considerations

 

(1)    =A1=B0PPSP will not attempt to provide a = solution on security and copyright

   issues like malicious content distribution, content = pollution and DRM

   for a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP = security

   considerations involve the security problems related to = PPSP

   protocols.=A1=B1

 

C= S: This provides the wrong impression, that the draft do not care about = security issues, caused by the p2p technology, e.g. distributed and = untrusted peers.

 

 

Proposal:

   =A1=B0PPSP will not attempt to provide a solution on = security and copyright

   issues like malicious content distribution, content = pollution and DRM

   for a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP = security

   considerations involve the security problems related to = t= he introduction

&= nbsp;  of p2p technology (e.g. usage of untrusted peers) = and the used PPSP protocols.=A1=B1

 

= Yunfei:I am fine with this revision.

 

(2)   =A1=B0 Malicious peers may issue denial of service = attack to the trackers by

   sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. = Distributed

   trackers deployment may alleviate the = problem.=A1=B1

 

C= S: Can you please explain, why you are in the opinion, that distributed = trackers can alleviate the problem? It even could increase the problem, = because now you can attack the distributed parts of the tracker = simultaneously. Which makes thinks worse.

 

= Yunfei: The rational is that distributed trackers disperse the DoS = attack to a specific tracker in centralized tracker senario. = Therefore the attack to one certain tracker is alleviated.Does it make = sense?

 

(3)  =A1=B0On the other hand, malicious peers may report fake = information (e.g.,

   cheating trackers and other peers by claiming itself = owning some

   unexisting data).

 

C= S: Delete the first part of the sentence, it is without = information:

 

Proposal:

   =A1=B0Malicious peers may report fake information = (e.g.,

   cheating trackers and other peers by claiming itself = owning some

   unexisting data).=A1=B1

 

= Yunfei:I am fine with this revision.

 

(4)  =A1=B0So it may be optional in some cases to realize = authentication to the

   peers before accepting the request for the tracker. But = this may add

   up the tracker's workload on = authentication.=A1=B1

 

C= S: Proposal for rewording:

 

   =A1=B0In some cases peer authentication for tracker = contact may be needed. But this may increase

   the tracker's workload.=A1=B1

= Yunfei:Good.

 

 

(5)  =A1=B0Similar to the behavior in the tracker-peer = interaction, malicious

   peers may also create fake information on chunk = availability and

   exchange it with other peers. Some techniques to check = the data

   integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for = detecting the data.

   But this part is out of scope of = PPSP.=A1=B1

 

C= S: I do not thing, that it is a good idea to declare this out of scope = here, because it is a fundamental question for p2p streaming. We should = provide more information here.

F= or example, how checksums could be used for this purpose. What level of = security can be achieved and what is the remaining = risk.

= Yunfei: I am okay if PPSP guys believe this is a fundamental = task of PPSP. I would like to see more comments on this = part. 

 

B= est Regards

C= hristian

 

= Thanks,

= Yunfei

 

 

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CBD4E6.350B6717-- From fluffy@cisco.com Sat Feb 26 05:54:09 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B083A692F for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2011 05:54:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.538 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.538 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.061, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H0oHEvWzc6X5 for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2011 05:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40F73A693B for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2011 05:54:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; l=204; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1298728504; x=1299938104; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references: to:message-id:mime-version; bh=n75sOEmn/lbWWrIYEJRh+eYHbI+3Sm3anjtBb2TWo/o=; b=ifzmLmRxHToh2+rexHxPpAQjoPQp1n57FPUzI954uxcDD+fzW1Gg8Ych 3USXtQ6LbInR/qU6VKwAvb3pMZMbfs91bKQ2eXtwPT0Fvem4E+8HrDDEk QDomiMGL6qvAhLOhYg9BzLRAjNoZgbKPXjDcC/abwBGdFoAYM1VGsw0b2 c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AuYGAD6VaE2rRN+J/2dsb2JhbACYNI4SdKAymzGFYQSFEIcNgz4 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.62,231,1297036800"; d="scan'208";a="271050655" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Feb 2011 13:55:03 +0000 Received: from [192.168.4.2] (rcdn-fluffy-8711.cisco.com [10.99.9.18]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p1QDqmZA026447 for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2011 13:55:04 GMT From: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 06:57:25 -0700 References: <20110224222740.016963A6877@core3.amsl.com> To: ppsp@ietf.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Subject: [ppsp] Fwd: PPSP - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 80 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 13:54:09 -0000 Tentative time for PPSP meeting Begin forwarded message: > PPSP Session 1 (2.5 hours) > Monday, Morning Session I 0900-1130 > Room Name: Roma > ---------------------------------------------- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Sun Feb 27 17:38:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD3913A695E for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:38:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.587 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.587 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.818, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_SUBJECT=1.762, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_RMML_Stock1=0.21, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i0YYEMzmeQ5I for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (hqmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57EF43A6959 for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:38:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.imsstest.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6855616B13; Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:39:01 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by hqmta.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524FC16605; Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:39:01 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.0.245]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011022809385878-4159 ; Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:38:58 +0800 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:38:58 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <201101180955204217745@chinamobile.com> <201101181419275009728@chinamobile.com> <201101311644379687165@chinamobile.com> <201102151000498905239@chinamobile.com> <201102251737543564278@chinamobile.com> X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.5.0.1024-17982.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No-4.417-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No-4.417-7.0-31-10;No-4.417-5.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No Subject: [ppsp] (no subject) X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 01:38:15 -0000 862C401900785@DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net> Subject: Re: RE: Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 5 Message-ID: <201102280938582729845@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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OTdkOyBGT05ULVNJWkU6IDExcHQiIA0KbGFuZz1FTi1HQj4mbmJzcDs8L1NQQU4+PG86cD48L286 cD48L1A+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9GT05UPjwvRElWPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= --=====003_Dragon628402863235_=====-- From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Wed Feb 23 00:30:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A78B63A681A; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 00:30:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.086, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FElVah7XoUcO; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 00:30:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CFB93A67E3; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 00:30:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.12 Message-ID: <20110223083001.18782.47419.idtracker@localhost> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 00:30:01 -0800 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:56:46 -0800 Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:30:02 -0000 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Peer to Peer Streaming Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : P2P Streaming Protocol (PPSP) Requirements Author(s) : N. Zong, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2011-02-23 The objective of the PPSP work is to standardize the key signaling protocols that apply to tracker and peers in a Peer-to-Peer (P2P) streaming system. These protocols are called PPSP. This document enumerates the requirements for the PPSP, which should be considered when designing PPSP. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2011-02-23002656.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sun Feb 27 21:45:07 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08353A6AB1; Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:45:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nyL3Xm9uCRdN; Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:45:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C70183A6A9D; Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:45:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.12 Message-ID: <20110228054501.28153.77544.idtracker@localhost> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:45:01 -0800 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:56:46 -0800 Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ppsp-survey-00.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 05:45:07 -0000 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Peer to Peer Streaming Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : Survey of P2P Streaming Applications Author(s) : G. Yingjie, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ppsp-survey-00.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2011-02-27 This document presents a survey of popular Peer-to-Peer streaming applications on the Internet. We focus on the Architecture and Peer Protocol/Tracker Signaling Protocol description in the presentation, and study a selection of well-known P2P streaming systems, including Joost, PPlive, andother popular existing systems. Through the survey, we summarize a common P2P streaming process model and the correspondent signaling process for P2P Streaming Protocol standardization. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ppsp-survey-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ppsp-survey-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2011-02-27214147.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Sun Feb 27 21:59:09 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51FC83A69B7 for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:59:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.715 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.715 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.690, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_SUBJECT=1.762, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_RMML_Stock1=0.21, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qgamey-GP4H0 for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:59:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (hqmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF2A73A68E5 for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:59:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.imsstest.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49D7720E26; Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:59:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by hqmta.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35EBF20D74; Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:59:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.0.55]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011022813594606-12003 ; Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:59:46 +0800 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:59:44 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <201101180955204217745@chinamobile.com> <201101181419275009728@chinamobile.com> <201101311644379687165@chinamobile.com> <201102151000498905239@chinamobile.com> <201102251737543564278@chinamobile.com> X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.5.0.1024-17982.004 X-TM-AS-Result: No-4.417-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No-4.417-7.0-31-10;No-4.417-5.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No Subject: [ppsp] (no subject) X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 05:59:09 -0000 862C401900785@DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net> Subject: Re: RE: Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 5 Message-ID: <201102281359441814614@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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(core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1acF7oNbgiAn for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2011 22:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (hqmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6987A3A6804 for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2011 22:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.imsstest.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBBAA16A4A; Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:47:46 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by hqmta.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7D920F68; Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:47:46 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011022814474092-13708 ; Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:47:40 +0800 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:47:38 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" , "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-ID: <201102281447367334107@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-02-28 14:47:45, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-02-28 14:47:46, Serialize complete at 2011-02-28 14:47:46 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon826266614458_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.5.0.1024-17982.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No--20.628-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--20.628-7.0-31-10;No--20.628-5.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] Review: draft-ietf-pp2p-problem-statement-01 / Section 5 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:46:53 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USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vkzPSOu-xkuv for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2011 23:05:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (hqmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37E5C3A6804 for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2011 23:05:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.imsstest.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BDA720F3B; Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:05:59 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by hqmta.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E15164BB; Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:05:59 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011022815055171-14397 ; Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:05:51 +0800 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:05:49 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <20110224222740.016963A6877@core3.amsl.com> Message-ID: <201102281505450707793@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-02-28 15:05:57, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-02-28 15:05:58, Serialize complete at 2011-02-28 15:05:58 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon887351832143_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.5.0.1024-17982.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No--19.930-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--19.930-7.0-31-10;No--19.930-5.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No Subject: [ppsp] Agenda request for IETF 80 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:05:06 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. 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