From ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Mon Apr 4 00:21:33 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D84A3A692C for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2011 00:21:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.373 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.373 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ML4mWAq8vJN for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2011 00:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com (mail-wy0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCC923A69D9 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2011 00:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wyb29 with SMTP id 29so4972911wyb.31 for ; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 00:23:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type:x-mailer:thread-index :content-language; bh=tzxdwDslIo+a+6F9U175GEDiEMUYjjomquhTXdiY2iw=; b=FfwosaiYl3uxLZp0dYkoh4o9FhF0DmxSvPQoZxSujvP834CCPMhStZT7UcgEjisdnY pz/GP19Cu200leVrn2itwpmLP2OPv1u9ffly5TyyGTnHMksGhZserFj7h8rQyZZMVzTR wnLzSnV24zZLxf4RnvNn3EsRroOWlrx+GaokY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:x-mailer:thread-index:content-language; b=j6zidYxAoWzhHpdPZikHrYg2krA6zfC9UJx2J9dI887o+RYEMCMIFzo2rqp+MDsj+4 IP3Ww+QGcEX7BUiy8cDU17erG3qTVrxUWj3XbpRQWsplNW1saP8Y3/ovJ2A9TAce2Aab CPW8myo9hwAdZhM9xlYnBIEbUcuwJ653Yq5Hw= Received: by 10.216.72.20 with SMTP id s20mr6319712wed.80.1301901787647; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 00:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windows8d787f9 ([109.65.49.204]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g32sm2108490wej.27.2011.04.04.00.23.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 04 Apr 2011 00:23:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roni Even" To: "'zhangyunfei'" , "'Cullen Jennings'" , References: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 10:22:02 +0300 Message-ID: <4d9971d8.a08dd80a.0bbf.ffffbd5b@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C7_01CBF2B2.25E29D60" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acvt6mae+MkL2KFDQR2ECWMGFtUsJgErnUfw Content-Language: en-us Cc: 'Martin Stiemerling' Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 07:21:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01CBF2B2.25E29D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I support adopting this document to address the august 2011 mile stone Thanks Roni Even =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of zhangyunfei Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org Cc: Martin Stiemerling Subject: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =20 Hi all, As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the = mailing list if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th.=20 If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the draft above will = be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =A1=B0tracker protocol=A1=B1 deliverable.Thanks. =20 BR Yunfei =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 zhangyunfei 2011-03-29 _____ =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen Jennings =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-03-28 17:27:23 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80 =20 =20 A few notes I took from the meeting =20 First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking minutes and Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. =20 We need to prioritize the use cases and decide what we will = work on first. =20 =20 draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to WGLC =20 =20 We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as a WG item =20 Were about 60 people in room =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01CBF2B2.25E29D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

I support adopting this document to address the august 2011 mile = stone

Thanks

Roni Even

 

From:= = ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 = AM
To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org
Cc: Martin = Stiemerling
Subject: [ppsp] WG item adoption = confirmation

 

= Hi all,

=    As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely adopt = draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the = mailing list if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. =

=     If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, = the draft above will be accepted as WG document fulfilling the = =A1=B0tracker protocol=A1=B1 deliverable.Thanks.

 

= BR

= Yunfei

 

 

 

zhangyunfei

2011-03-29

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= =A3=BA Cullen = Jennings

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1= =BC=E4=A3=BA = 2011-03-28 17:27:23

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB= =A3=BA = ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA= =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA= [ppsp] = Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80

 

 =

A =  few  notes  I  took  from  the =  meeting

 =

First, =  thank  you  to  Christian  Schmidt  for =  taking  minutes  and  Martin  Stiemerling =  for  jabber =  scribing.

 =

We =  need  to  prioritize  the  use  cases =  and  decide  what  we  will  work =  on  first.  

 =

draft-ietf-= ppsp-problem-statement  is  getting  close  to =  WGLC  

 =

We =  will  likely  adopt  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol =  as  a  WG  item

 =

Were =  about  60  people  in  room =  

 =

 =

 =

 =

___________= ____________________________________

ppsp =  mailing  list

ppsp@ietf.o= rg

https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01CBF2B2.25E29D60-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Tue Apr 5 07:56:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C723A6947 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 07:56:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.288 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.288 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.892, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NB+tBQQQVQUN for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 07:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp0.neclab.eu (smtp0.neclab.eu [195.37.70.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C33A3A67FB for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 07:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp0.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635A82C000205; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 17:00:48 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas2.office.hd) Received: from smtp0.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas2.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A9vTBeWLaIYF; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 17:00:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by smtp0.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449262C0001DE; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 17:00:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Polydeuces.office.hd ([169.254.3.246]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 16:57:31 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: zhangyunfei , Cullen Jennings , "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: WG item adoption confirmation Thread-Index: AQHL7epoDgsxGrckpUuClIoxGws8pZRPZorQ Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 14:57:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.67] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 14:56:10 -0000 RGVhciBhbGwsDQoNCkkgaGF2ZSBzZXJpb3VzIGRvdWJ0cyBhYm91dCB3aGV0aGVyIHRoZSB3b3Jr aW5nIGdyb3VwIGhhcyByZWFkIHRoZSBkcmFmdCBhbmQgaXMgZmluZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBpbXBlbmRp bmcgYWRvcHRpb24gYXMgV0cgaXRlbS4gDQoNCkJhc2ljYWxseSwgb25seSBSb25pIGhhcyBleHBy ZXNzZWQgZmVlZGJhY2sgdG8gdGhpcy4gDQoNCkkgd291bGQgc3VnZ2VzdCB0aGF0IHRoZSBXRyBy ZWFkcyB0aGUgZHJhZnQgYW5kIGdpdmVzIGZlZWRiYWNrIHVudGlsIEFwcmlsIDEwdGggaWYgdGhl IGRyYWZ0IGlzICoqb2sqKiB0byBiZSBhY2NlcHRlZCBhcyBXRyBpdGVtIG9yIGlmIGl0IGlzICoq bm90IG9rKiouIA0KDQpOb3Qgc2VuZGluZyBhbnkgZW1haWwgdG8gdGhlIGxpc3QgKGkuZS4sIHB1 cmUgc2lsZW5jZSkgd291bGQgcmVhZCBpbiBteSBvcGluaW9uIGFzICJ3ZSBqdXN0IGRvIG5vdCBj YXJlIiBhbmQgbm90IGFzIGFjY2VwdCBhcyBXRyBpdGVtLiBEb24ndCBjYXJlIGRvZXNuJ3Qgc2Vl bSB0byBiZSBhIGdvb2Qgb3B0aW9uLi4uDQoNClRoYW5rcywNCg0KICBNYXJ0aW4NCg0KDQptYXJ0 aW4uc3RpZW1lcmxpbmdAbmVjbGFiLmV1DQoNCk5FQyBMYWJvcmF0b3JpZXMgRXVyb3BlIC0gTmV0 d29yayBSZXNlYXJjaCBEaXZpc2lvbg0KTkVDIEV1cm9wZSBMaW1pdGVkIHwgUmVnaXN0ZXJlZCBP ZmZpY2U6IE5FQyBIb3VzZSwgMSBWaWN0b3JpYSBSb2FkLCBMb25kb24gVzMgNkJMIHwgUmVnaXN0 ZXJlZCBpbiBFbmdsYW5kIDI4MzIwMTQgDQoNCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0t LQ0KPiBGcm9tOiB6aGFuZ3l1bmZlaSBbbWFpbHRvOnpoYW5neXVuZmVpQGNoaW5hbW9iaWxlLmNv bV0NCj4gU2VudDogVHVlc2RheSwgTWFyY2ggMjksIDIwMTEgMTA6MjIgQU0NCj4gVG86IEN1bGxl biBKZW5uaW5nczsgcHBzcEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBDYzogTWFydGluIFN0aWVtZXJsaW5nDQo+IFN1 YmplY3Q6IFdHIGl0ZW0gYWRvcHRpb24gY29uZmlybWF0aW9uDQo+IA0KPiBIaSBhbGwsDQo+ICAg IEFzIGRpc2N1c3NlZCBpbiB5ZXN0ZXJkYXkncyBtZWV0aW5nLCB3ZSB3aWxsIGxpa2VseSBhZG9w dCBkcmFmdC1ndS0NCj4gcHBzcC10cmFja2VyLXByb3RvY29sIGFzIGEgbmV3IFdHIGl0ZW0uIFBs ZWFzZSBwb3N0IG9uIHRoZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gaWYgeW91IGhhdmUgYW55IG9iamVjdGlv bnMgb24gdGhpcyBiZWZvcmUgQXByLiAxMHRoLg0KPiAgICAgSWYgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG5vIG9iamVj dGlvbnMgYnkgQXByLiAxMHRoIDIwMTEsIHRoZSBkcmFmdCBhYm92ZSB3aWxsDQo+IGJlIGFjY2Vw dGVkIGFzIFdHIGRvY3VtZW50IGZ1bGZpbGxpbmcgdGhlIKGwdHJhY2tlciBwcm90b2NvbKGxDQo+ IGRlbGl2ZXJhYmxlLlRoYW5rcy4NCj4gDQo+IEJSDQo+IFl1bmZlaQ0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiANCj4gemhhbmd5dW5mZWkNCj4gMjAx MS0wMy0yOQ0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiANCj4gt6K8/sjL o7ogQ3VsbGVuIEplbm5pbmdzDQo+ILeiy83Ksbzko7ogMjAxMS0wMy0yOCAxNzoyNzoyMw0KPiDK 1bz+yMujuiBwcHNwQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ILOty82jug0KPiDW98zio7ogW3Bwc3BdIE5vdGVzIGZy b20gUFBTUCBtZWV0aW5nIElFVEY4MA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IEEgIGZldyAgbm90ZXMgIEkgIHRvb2sg IGZyb20gIHRoZSAgbWVldGluZw0KPiANCj4gRmlyc3QsICB0aGFuayAgeW91ICB0byAgQ2hyaXN0 aWFuICBTY2htaWR0ICBmb3IgIHRha2luZyAgbWludXRlcyAgYW5kDQo+IE1hcnRpbiAgU3RpZW1l cmxpbmcgIGZvciAgamFiYmVyICBzY3JpYmluZy4NCj4gDQo+IFdlICBuZWVkICB0byAgcHJpb3Jp dGl6ZSAgdGhlICB1c2UgIGNhc2VzICBhbmQgIGRlY2lkZSAgd2hhdCAgd2UgIHdpbGwNCj4gd29y ayAgb24gIGZpcnN0Lg0KPiANCj4gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1wcHNwLXByb2JsZW0tc3RhdGVtZW50ICBp cyAgZ2V0dGluZyAgY2xvc2UgIHRvICBXR0xDDQo+IA0KPiBXZSAgd2lsbCAgbGlrZWx5ICBhZG9w dCAgZHJhZnQtZ3UtcHBzcC10cmFja2VyLXByb3RvY29sICBhcyAgYSAgV0cNCj4gaXRlbQ0KPiAN Cj4gV2VyZSAgYWJvdXQgIDYwICBwZW9wbGUgIGluICByb29tDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBwcHNwICBt YWlsaW5nICBsaXN0DQo+IHBwc3BAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9wcHNwDQo= From zongning@huawei.com Thu Apr 7 04:27:57 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B4A28C0DF for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 04:27:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.575, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VQRIPE+7CxgP for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 04:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C39C3A68C4 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 04:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LJA00CLI54D6W@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2011 19:26:37 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LJA00GOT54D6U@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2011 19:26:37 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316a ([10.138.41.23]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LJA000M7548AZ@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2011 19:26:37 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 19:26:32 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: To: 'Martin Stiemerling' , 'zhangyunfei' , 'Cullen Jennings' , ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <007101cbf516$a5d64600$f182d200$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-cn Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AQHL7epoDgsxGrckpUuClIoxGws8pZRPZorQgALqOYA= References: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIFdHIGl0ZW0gYWRvcHRpb24gY29uZmlybWF0?= =?gb2312?b?aW9u?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 11:27:57 -0000 Hi, I read the draft and support to adopt it as a starting point for = "Tracker Protocol" deliverable. I'd also like to contribute to it by keeping it = align with requirement draft. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Martin Stiemerling =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA4=D4=C25=C8=D5 22:57 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: zhangyunfei; Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Dear all, I have serious doubts about whether the working group has read the draft = and is fine with the impending adoption as WG item.=20 Basically, only Roni has expressed feedback to this.=20 I would suggest that the WG reads the draft and gives feedback until = April 10th if the draft is **ok** to be accepted as WG item or if it is **not ok**.=20 Not sending any email to the list (i.e., pure silence) would read in my opinion as "we just do not care" and not as accept as WG item. Don't = care doesn't seem to be a good option... Thanks, Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, = London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation >=20 > Hi all, > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely adopt draft-gu- > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the mailing = list > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the draft above will > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =A1=B0tracker protocol=A1=B1 > deliverable.Thanks. >=20 > BR > Yunfei >=20 >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > zhangyunfei > 2011-03-29 > ________________________________ >=20 > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen Jennings > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80 >=20 >=20 > A few notes I took from the meeting >=20 > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking minutes and > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. >=20 > We need to prioritize the use cases and decide what we will > work on first. >=20 > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to WGLC >=20 > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as a WG > item >=20 > Were about 60 people in room >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From ping@pingpan.org Thu Apr 7 05:42:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AE8A3A6925 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 05:42:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.751 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.751 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v6EHY6bXOt2R for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 05:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og127.obsmtp.com (exprod7og127.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.210]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BE5373A68C8 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 05:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iy0-f179.google.com ([209.85.210.179]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob127.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTZ2xkp0lDl6AJMUs6CNuHXKGjvjEeVns@postini.com; Thu, 07 Apr 2011 05:44:03 PDT Received: by iym7 with SMTP id 7so2791344iym.38 for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2011 05:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.63.66 with SMTP id xd2mr1458789icb.76.1302180242012; Thu, 07 Apr 2011 05:44:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.50.164 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 05:43:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> From: Ping Pan Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 05:43:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Stiemerling Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51b206bc239f904a05376cf Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 12:42:25 -0000 --bcaec51b206bc239f904a05376cf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Curious: which encoding will it be? Binary or HTTP? If binary is not a part of the protocol, why is it taking over 1/3 of the document as appendix? If HTTP, it may be helpful if it can provide the same level of details as illustrated in Alto protocol design. Also, from the survey, it shows that there are many existing tracker protocols. How did we reach the conclusion of using HTTP? Thanks! - Ping 2011/4/5 Martin Stiemerling > Dear all, > > I have serious doubts about whether the working group has read the draft > and is fine with the impending adoption as WG item. > > Basically, only Roni has expressed feedback to this. > > I would suggest that the WG reads the draft and gives feedback until Apri= l > 10th if the draft is **ok** to be accepted as WG item or if it is **not > ok**. > > Not sending any email to the list (i.e., pure silence) would read in my > opinion as "we just do not care" and not as accept as WG item. Don't care > doesn't seem to be a good option... > > Thanks, > > Martin > > > martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu > > NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division > NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, Londo= n > W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation > > > > Hi all, > > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely adopt draft-gu- > > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the mailing list > > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the draft above will > > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =A1=B0tracker protocol=A1=B1 > > deliverable.Thanks. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2011-03-29 > > ________________________________ > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen Jennings > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80 > > > > > > A few notes I took from the meeting > > > > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking minutes and > > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. > > > > We need to prioritize the use cases and decide what we will > > work on first. > > > > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to WGLC > > > > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as a WG > > item > > > > Were about 60 people in room > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > --bcaec51b206bc239f904a05376cf Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Curious: which encoding will it be? Binary or HTTP?

If b= inary is not a part of the protocol, why is it taking over 1/3 of the docum= ent as appendix?

If HTTP, it may be helpful if it = can provide the same level of details as illustrated in  Alto protocol= design.

Also, from the survey, it shows that there are many exi= sting tracker protocols. How did we reach the conclusion of using HTTP?

Thanks!

- Ping


2011/4/5 Martin Stiemerling <Martin.Stiemerlin= g@neclab.eu>
Dear all,

I have serious doubts about whether the working group has read the draft an= d is fine with the impending adoption as WG item.

Basically, only Roni has expressed feedback to this.

I would suggest that the WG reads the draft and gives feedback until April = 10th if the draft is **ok** to be accepted as WG item or if it is **not ok*= *.

Not sending any email to the list (i.e., pure silence) would read in my opi= nion as "we just do not care" and not as accept as WG item. Don&#= 39;t care doesn't seem to be a good option...

Thanks,

 Martin


martin.stiemerling@neclab.e= u

NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division
NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London = W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014


> -----Original Message-----
> From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM
> To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org
> Cc: Martin Stiemerling
> Subject: WG item adoption conf= irmation
>
> Hi all,
>    As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely a= dopt draft-gu-
> ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the mailing lis= t
> if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th.
>     If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the draft = above will
> be accepted as WG document fulfilling the “tracker protocol&rdqu= o;
> deliverable.Thanks.
>
> BR
> Yunfei
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> zhangyunfei
> 2011-03-29
> ________________________________
>
> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen Jennings
> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-03-28 17:27:23
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.or= g
> =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
> =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80
>
>
> A  few  notes  I  took  from  the  = meeting
>
> First,  thank  you  to  Christian  Schmidt &n= bsp;for  taking  minutes  and
> Martin  Stiemerling  for  jabber  scribing.
>
> We  need  to  prioritize  the  use  case= s  and  decide  what  we  will
> work  on  first.
>
> draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement  is  getting  close &= nbsp;to  WGLC
>
> We  will  likely  adopt  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-pro= tocol  as  a  WG
> item
>
> Were  about  60  people  in  room
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ppsp  mailing  list
> ppsp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

--bcaec51b206bc239f904a05376cf-- From Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Thu Apr 7 10:57:07 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01DB928C0E5 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 10:57:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.286 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.286 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.749, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X7Ryb12wp0XL for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 10:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idcout.InterDigital.com (idcexmail.interdigital.com [12.32.197.135]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA5863A695F for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 10:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.12]) by idcout.InterDigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 7 Apr 2011 13:58:49 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 13:58:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007101cbf516$a5d64600$f182d200$@com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: =?gb2312?B?W3Bwc3BdILTwuLQ6ICBXRyBpdGVtIGFkb3B0aW9uIGNvbmZpcm1hdGlvbg==?= Thread-Index: AQHL7epoDgsxGrckpUuClIoxGws8pZRPZorQgALqOYCAAEfHAA== References: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> <007101cbf516$a5d64600$f182d200$@com> From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Apr 2011 17:58:49.0545 (UTC) FILETIME=[72AD7B90:01CBF54D] Cc: Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIFdHIGl0ZW0gYWRvcHRpb24gY29uZmlybWF0?= =?gb2312?b?aW9u?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 17:57:07 -0000 Hi, I have read the draft, draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol, and have the = following comments: 1) In section 1 (Intro), there is the statement " At present, this draft = attempts to allow for both a BitTorrent style offline and real-time streaming = protocol, but may currently be biased a bit toward the offline approach, since the = decision of the WG is to use BitTorrent as a reference." I don't think this is accurate. I do not see anywhere in the = charter, problem=20 Statement or requirements where this type of assumption is made. Can = the authors please explain why they say this? And also explain the impacts to = the draft if this statement is proved to be wrong? 2) How are the Trackers discovered? In section 4.2.1 (Bootstrapping) it = simply says that "Tracker discovery is out of scope of this specification". I = think we need to be a bit more prescriptive then this. 3) I think we need to have a separate "Security Considerations" section = in the document as is usually found in most drafts. At the present time, there are = security related points spread throughout the document and I found it hard to deduce = the overall security approach. I am OK to adopt the draft as a WG document after my comments are = addressed. Akbar -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Ning Zong Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:27 AM To: 'Martin Stiemerling'; 'zhangyunfei'; 'Cullen Jennings'; = ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] =B4=F0=B8=B4: WG item adoption confirmation Hi, I read the draft and support to adopt it as a starting point for = "Tracker Protocol" deliverable. I'd also like to contribute to it by keeping it = align with requirement draft. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Martin Stiemerling =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA4=D4=C25=C8=D5 22:57 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: zhangyunfei; Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Dear all, I have serious doubts about whether the working group has read the draft = and is fine with the impending adoption as WG item.=20 Basically, only Roni has expressed feedback to this.=20 I would suggest that the WG reads the draft and gives feedback until = April 10th if the draft is **ok** to be accepted as WG item or if it is **not ok**.=20 Not sending any email to the list (i.e., pure silence) would read in my opinion as "we just do not care" and not as accept as WG item. Don't = care doesn't seem to be a good option... Thanks, Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, = London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation >=20 > Hi all, > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely adopt draft-gu- > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the mailing = list > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the draft above will > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =A1=B0tracker protocol=A1=B1 > deliverable.Thanks. >=20 > BR > Yunfei >=20 >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > zhangyunfei > 2011-03-29 > ________________________________ >=20 > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen Jennings > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80 >=20 >=20 > A few notes I took from the meeting >=20 > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking minutes and > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. >=20 > We need to prioritize the use cases and decide what we will > work on first. >=20 > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to WGLC >=20 > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as a WG > item >=20 > Were about 60 people in room >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Apr 7 23:20:43 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92083A6892 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 23:20:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.05 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.05 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.581, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, 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Pan" , "Martin Stiemerling" References: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <201104081421415038431@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-04-08 14:21:45, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-04-08 14:21:46, Serialize complete at 2011-04-08 14:21:46 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon757530318670_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.5.0.1024-18060.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No--27.371-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--27.371-7.0-31-10;No--27.371-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 06:20:43 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon757530318670_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgUGluZywNCiAgIEkgcmVtZW1iZXIgdGhhdCBpbiBsYXN0IElFVEYgYW5kIGFmdGVyIHRoZSBt ZWV0aW5nKGluIHRoZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QpLCB0aGUgYXV0aG9yIGhhZCBhIHBvbGwgdG8gYXNr IGZvciB0aGUgV0cncyBhdHRpdHVkZSBvbiB0aGUgZW5jb2RpbmcuIEl0IHNlZW1lZCB0aGF0IG1v c3QgZmF2b3JlZCBvZiBodHRwIGJhc2VkIGVuY29kaW5nLg0KICAgUGVyc29uYWxseSBhdCBhIGZp cnN0IHNpZ2h0IHRoZSBiaW5hcnkgZW5jb2RpbmcgaXMgbW9yZSBlZmZpY2llbnQgaW4gbW9iaWxl IGVudmlyb25tZW50LiBCdXQganVzdCBhcyBJIG1lbnRpb25lZCBpbiB0aGlzIElFVEYsIHRoZSBl ZmZpY2llbmN5IHRvIGRlYWwgd2l0aCBhIG1lc3NhZ2UgaXMgYmFzaWNhbGx5IGRlY2lkZWQgYnkg Q1BVIGNvbXB1dGF0aW9uIHRvIHJlc29sdmUgdGhlIG1lc3NhZ2UgYW5kIHRoZSBiYW5kd2lkdGgg dG8gdHJhbnNtaXQgdGhlIG1lc3NhZ2UuIEZyb20gYSBxdWFsaXRhdGl2ZSBhbmFseXNpcywgdGhl 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2011-04-08 17:06:28 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00322A0A4825786C_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn p3896SQg045775 Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" , Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 09:04:58 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00322A0A4825786C_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UGVyc29uYWxseSwgSSBwcmVmZXIgSFRUUCwgYnV0IEkgYW0gbm90IHN1cmUuDQpJIHRoaW5rIHRy YW5zZmVycmluZyBhbmQgd2F0Y2hpbmcgdmlkZW8gd291bGQgY29uc3VtZSBtdWNoIG1vcmUgcmVz b3VyY2VzIA0Kb2YgcGVlciBjb21wYXJlZCB3aXRoIHRyYW5zZmVycmluZyBhbmQgcHJvY2Vzc2lu ZyBzaWduYWwgbWVzc2FnZXMuIA0KSSBkb24ndCB3b3JyeSBtb2JpbGUgdGVybWluYWwncyByZXNv 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amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.926 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.926 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4SC6FyjAYMRT for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 05:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og105.obsmtp.com (exprod7og105.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.163]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EE7423A68DC for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 05:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f180.google.com ([74.125.83.180]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob105.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTZ7+NDpdfko/OopflT2ptDhSJ9ZQhlV+@postini.com; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 05:23:17 PDT Received: by pvg2 with SMTP id 2so1682015pvg.39 for ; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 05:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.7.4 with SMTP id 4mr1841929wfg.386.1302265396097; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 05:23:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.50.164 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 05:22:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201104081421415038431@chinamobile.com> References: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> <201104081421415038431@chinamobile.com> From: Ping Pan Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 05:22:36 -0700 Message-ID: To: zhangyunfei Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502b08e5673e204a0674aa9 Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" , Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:21:40 -0000 --00504502b08e5673e204a0674aa9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Both encoding approaches make sense. For HTTP, it's easier to implement, secure and less NAT issues. However, it may be associated with more processing overhead on inexpensive mobile devices. Curious, other than tracker, the P2P devices also need to support the gossi= p protocols, right? Aren't all gossip protocols using binary encoding... Ping 2011/4/7 zhangyunfei > Hi Ping, > I remember that in last IETF and after the meeting(in the mailing list= ), > the author had a poll to ask for the WG's attitude on the encoding. It > seemed that most favored of http based encoding. > Personally at a first sight the binary encoding is more efficient in > mobile environment. But just as I mentioned in this IETF, the efficiency = to > deal with a message is basically decided by CPU computation to resolve th= e > message and the bandwidth to transmit the message. From a qualitative > analysis, the CPU in mobile terminals is faster and faster, which ensures > the computation of even text message. The bandwidth of 3G or after-3G > network may be wider to accomodate the text-based tracker and peer protoo= col > message. > I support your suggestion that it would be great to provide the > quantative analysis why we use HTTP and why we don't use binary in the > protocol design (at least we can have an analysis based on the above mode= l). > > > Yunfei > > ------------------------------ > zhangyunfei > 2011-04-08 > ------------------------------ > *=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA* Ping Pan > *=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA* 2011-04-07 22:26:12 > *=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA* Martin Stiemerling > *=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA* zhangyunfei; Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > *=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA* Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation > > Curious: which encoding will it be? Binary or HTTP? > > If binary is not a part of the protocol, why is it taking over 1/3 of the > document as appendix? > > If HTTP, it may be helpful if it can provide the same level of details as > illustrated in Alto protocol design. > > Also, from the survey, it shows that there are many existing tracker > protocols. How did we reach the conclusion of using HTTP? > > Thanks! > > - Ping > > > 2011/4/5 Martin Stiemerling > >> Dear all, >> >> I have serious doubts about whether the working group has read the draft >> and is fine with the impending adoption as WG item. >> >> Basically, only Roni has expressed feedback to this. >> >> I would suggest that the WG reads the draft and gives feedback until Apr= il >> 10th if the draft is **ok** to be accepted as WG item or if it is **not >> ok**. >> >> Not sending any email to the list (i.e., pure silence) would read in my >> opinion as "we just do not care" and not as accept as WG item. Don't car= e >> doesn't seem to be a good option... >> >> Thanks, >> >> Martin >> >> >> martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu >> >> NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division >> NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, Lond= on >> W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] >> > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM >> > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org >> > Cc: Martin Stiemerling >> > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation >> > >> > Hi all, >> > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely adopt draft-gu- >> > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the mailing lis= t >> > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. >> > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the draft above will >> > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =A1=B0tracker protocol=A1=B1 >> > deliverable.Thanks. >> > >> > BR >> > Yunfei >> > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > >> > zhangyunfei >> > 2011-03-29 >> > ________________________________ >> > >> > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen Jennings >> > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-03-28 17:27:23 >> > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org >> > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA >> > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80 >> > >> > >> > A few notes I took from the meeting >> > >> > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking minutes and >> > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. >> > >> > We need to prioritize the use cases and decide what we will >> > work on first. >> > >> > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to WGLC >> > >> > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as a WG >> > item >> > >> > Were about 60 people in room >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > ppsp mailing list >> > ppsp@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> > > --00504502b08e5673e204a0674aa9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Both encoding approaches make sense. For HTTP, it's easier to impl= ement, secure and less NAT issues. However, it may be associated with more = processing overhead on inexpensive mobile devices. 
Curious, other than tracker, the P2P devices also need to support the = gossip protocols, right? Aren't all gossip protocols using binary encod= ing...

Ping

2011/4/7 zhangyunfei <zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com>
Hi Ping,
   = I remember that=20 in last IETF and after the meeting(in the mailing list), the author had a p= oll=20 to ask for the WG's attitude on the encoding. It seemed that most favor= ed of=20 http based encoding.
   Perso= nally at a first=20 sight the binary encoding is more efficient in mobile environment. But just= as I=20 mentioned in this IETF, the efficiency to deal with a message is basically= =20 decided by CPU computation to resolve the message and the bandwidth to tran= smit=20 the message. From a qualitative analysis, the CPU in mobile terminals is fa= ster=20 and faster, which ensures the computation of even text message. The bandwidth of 3G or afte= r-3G=20 network may be wider to accomodate the text-based tracker an= d=20 peer protoocol message.
   I sup= port your=20 suggestion that it would be great to provide the quantative analysis w= hy we=20 use HTTP and why we don't use binary in the protocol design (at le= ast we=20 can have an analysis based on the above model).
 
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei<= /font>
2011-04-08
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3= =BA Ping=20 Pan
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC= =E4=A3=BA=20 2011-04-07 22:26:12
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3= =BA Martin=20 Stiemerling
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA zhangyunfei; Cullen=20 Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org<= /a>
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] WG item=20 adoption confirmation
 
Curious: which encoding will it be? Binary or=20 HTTP?

If binary is not a part of the protocol, why is it taking over 1/3 of = the=20 document as appendix?

If HTTP, it may be helpful if it can provide the same level of details= as=20 illustrated in  Alto protocol design.

Also, from the survey, it shows that there are many existing tracker= =20 protocols. How did we reach the conclusion of using HTTP?

Thanks!

- Ping


2011/4/5 Martin Stiemerling &l= t;Martin.= Stiemerling@neclab.eu>
Dear all,

I have serious doubt= s about whether the=20 working group has read the draft and is fine with the impending adoption = as WG=20 item.

Basically, only Roni has expressed feedback to this.

= I=20 would suggest that the WG reads the draft and gives feedback until April = 10th=20 if the draft is **ok** to be accepted as WG item or if it is **not=20 ok**.

Not sending any email to the list (i.e., pure silence) would= read=20 in my opinion as "we just do not care" and not as accept as WG = item. Don't=20 care doesn't seem to be a good=20 option...

Thanks,

 Martin


martin.stiemerling@neclab.= eu

NEC=20 Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division
NEC Europe Limited |= =20 Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered= in=20 England 2832014


> -----Original Message-----
> From:=20 zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
>=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM
> To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org
> Cc:= Martin=20 Stiemerling
> Subject: WG item adoption confirmation
>
> Hi=20 all,
>    As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we wil= l likely=20 adopt draft-gu-
> ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please po= st on=20 the mailing list
> if you have any objections on this before Apr.= =20 10th.
>     If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011,= the=20 draft above will
> be accepted as WG document fulfilling the &ldquo= ;tracker=20 protocol”
> deliverable.Thanks.
>
> BR
>=20 Yunfei
>
>
>
>=20 ________________________________
>
> zhangyunfei
>=20 2011-03-29
> ________________________________
>
> =B7= =A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA=20 Cullen Jennings
> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-03-28 17:27:2= 3
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org
> =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
> =D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA [ppsp]=20 Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80
>
>
> A  few  = notes=20  I  took  from  the  meeting
>
> Fir= st,=20  thank  you  to  Christian  Schmidt  for=20  taking  minutes  and
> Martin  Stiemerling=20  for  jabber  scribing.
>
> We  need &nbs= p;to=20  prioritize  the  use  cases  and  decide= =20  what  we  will
> work  on=20  first.
>
> draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement  is= =20  getting  close  to  WGLC
>
> We  wi= ll=20  likely  adopt  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol  as &n= bsp;a=20  WG
> item
>
> Were  about  60  peo= ple=20  in  room
>
>
>
>
>=20 _______________________________________________
> ppsp  mailin= g=20  list
> pps= p@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
____= ___________________________________________
ppsp=20 mailing list
ppsp@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
=


--00504502b08e5673e204a0674aa9-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Fri Apr 8 07:23:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9C528C118 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 07:23:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.008 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.008 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.962, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jGrlxMVl+PBp for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 07:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp0.netlab.nec.de (smtp0.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D9523A6A0A for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 07:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B7A2800018D for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 16:26:54 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from smtp0.netlab.nec.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SSM7BDtTHy+b for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 16:26:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B1628000181 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 16:26:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Polydeuces.office.hd ([169.254.3.246]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 16:25:30 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: WG item adoption confirmation Thread-Index: AQHL7epoDgsxGrckpUuClIoxGws8pZRUE2eg Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 14:25:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.67] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 14:23:52 -0000 W3NwZWFraW5nIGFzIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgLSBub3QgYXMgUFBTUCBjby1jaGFpcl0NCg0KSGkgdGhl cmUsDQoNCkhlcmUgaXMgbXkgaW5jb21wbGV0ZSByZXZpZXcgb2YgZHJhZnQtZ3UtcHBzcC10cmFj a2VyLXByb3RvY29sLTAzIGFuZCBteSBvcGluaW9uIG9mIHdoZXRoZXIgaXQgaXMgcmVhZHkgdG8g YmVjb21lIFdHIGl0ZW06DQoNCi0gV2h5IGFyZSB0aGVyZSBzdGlsbCAyIGVuY29kaW5ncyBpbiB0 aGUgZHJhZnQ/IElzbid0IGl0IHRpbWUgdG8gY29uY2x1ZGUgb24gb25lIGVuY29kaW5nPw0KLSBT 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X19fX18NCj4gDQo+IHpoYW5neXVuZmVpDQo+IDIwMTEtMDMtMjkNCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gDQo+ILeivP7Iy6O6IEN1bGxlbiBKZW5uaW5ncw0KPiC3osvN yrG85KO6IDIwMTEtMDMtMjggMTc6Mjc6MjMNCj4gytW8/sjLo7ogcHBzcEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiCz rcvNo7oNCj4g1vfM4qO6IFtwcHNwXSBOb3RlcyBmcm9tIFBQU1AgbWVldGluZyBJRVRGODANCj4g DQo+IA0KPiBBICBmZXcgIG5vdGVzICBJICB0b29rICBmcm9tICB0aGUgIG1lZXRpbmcNCj4gDQo+ IEZpcnN0LCAgdGhhbmsgIHlvdSAgdG8gIENocmlzdGlhbiAgU2NobWlkdCAgZm9yICB0YWtpbmcg IG1pbnV0ZXMgIGFuZA0KPiBNYXJ0aW4gIFN0aWVtZXJsaW5nICBmb3IgIGphYmJlciAgc2NyaWJp bmcuDQo+IA0KPiBXZSAgbmVlZCAgdG8gIHByaW9yaXRpemUgIHRoZSAgdXNlICBjYXNlcyAgYW5k ICBkZWNpZGUgIHdoYXQgIHdlICB3aWxsDQo+IHdvcmsgIG9uICBmaXJzdC4NCj4gDQo+IGRyYWZ0 LWlldGYtcHBzcC1wcm9ibGVtLXN0YXRlbWVudCAgaXMgIGdldHRpbmcgIGNsb3NlICB0byAgV0dM Qw0KPiANCj4gV2UgIHdpbGwgIGxpa2VseSAgYWRvcHQgIGRyYWZ0LWd1LXBwc3AtdHJhY2tlci1w cm90b2NvbCAgYXMgIGEgIFdHDQo+IGl0ZW0NCj4gDQo+IFdlcmUgIGFib3V0ICA2MCAgcGVvcGxl ICBpbiAgcm9vbQ0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gcHBzcCAgbWFpbGluZyAgbGlzdA0KPiBwcHNwQGlldGYu b3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcHBzcA0K From ping@pingpan.org Fri Apr 8 07:31:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F9DE28C118 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 07:31:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.226 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.226 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J+-XBmRjEBoh for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 07:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og110.obsmtp.com (exprod7og110.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.173]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5B15C3A67B2 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 07:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f172.google.com ([74.125.83.172]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob110.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTZ8ckD3j4dEuK+T2Vous3l9eL5J1A2Zj@postini.com; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 07:32:49 PDT Received: by mail-pv0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 1so1266620pvh.3 for ; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 07:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.232.9 with SMTP id e9mr1906778wfh.272.1302273167940; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 07:32:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.50.164 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 07:32:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> From: Ping Pan Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 07:32:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Stiemerling Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd29e02935e5104a0691935 Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 14:31:05 -0000 --000e0cd29e02935e5104a0691935 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree on this assessment. 2011/4/8 Martin Stiemerling > [speaking as individual - not as PPSP co-chair] > > Hi there, > > Here is my incomplete review of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 and my > opinion of whether it is ready to become WG item: > > - Why are there still 2 encodings in the draft? Isn't it time to conclude > on one encoding? > - Section 1: "the main part is the abstract description of the > operations...". This means that this is actually not a draft about the > tracker protocol? > - Section 1: "for both a bittorrent style offline and real-time streaming > protocol". Why is it so? We are in PPSP, so we should work on something f= or > streaming, isn't it? > - Why is there the notion of battery level in the status messages? > - Section 9.1.3: What is the issue with fragmentation in here? > - What is the transport protocol where the tracker protocol should run > over? > > The proposed methods look reasonable, but the overall draft organization > still suffers from what Section 1 hints to that it is solely an abstract > description of the operations. > > > > I'm **not** in favor of getting draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 to be a > WG item, for these reasons: > - document quality is not good enough in my opinion > - it is unclear what the transport protocol is. there is a hint to UDP, > which is not a good choice to be used in this particular case > - there is not yet a real protocol described in the draft, but only the > skeletons of two protocols (binary and HTTP). > > I would suggest (still speaking as individual) to first make some importa= nt > decisions, e.g., encoding, fix the document, etc and **afterwards** make = a > new call for WG adoption. > > Thanks, > > Martin > > > martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu > > NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division > NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, Londo= n > W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation > > > > Hi all, > > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely adopt draft-gu- > > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the mailing list > > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the draft above will > > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =A1=B0tracker protocol=A1=B1 > > deliverable.Thanks. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2011-03-29 > > ________________________________ > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen Jennings > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80 > > > > > > A few notes I took from the meeting > > > > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking minutes and > > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. > > > > We need to prioritize the use cases and decide what we will > > work on first. > > > > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to WGLC > > > > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as a WG > > item > > > > Were about 60 people in room > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > --000e0cd29e02935e5104a0691935 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree on this=C2=A0assessment.


2011/4/8 Martin Stiemerling <Martin.Stiemerlin= g@neclab.eu>
[speaking as individual - not as PPSP co-chair]

Hi there,

Here is my incomplete review of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 and my op= inion of whether it is ready to become WG item:

- Why are there still 2 encodings in the draft? Isn't it time to conclu= de on one encoding?
- Section 1: "the main part is the abstract description of the operati= ons...". This means that this is actually not a draft about the tracke= r protocol?
- Section 1: "for both a bittorrent style offline and real-time stream= ing protocol". Why is it so? We are in PPSP, so we should work on some= thing for streaming, isn't it?
- Why is there the notion of battery level in the status messages?
- Section 9.1.3: What is the issue with fragmentation in here?
- What is the transport protocol where the tracker protocol should run over= ?

The proposed methods look reasonable, but the overall draft organization st= ill suffers from what Section 1 hints to that it is solely an abstract desc= ription of the operations.



I'm **not** in favor of getting draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 to be= a WG item, for these reasons:
- document quality is not good enough in my opinion
- it is unclear what the transport protocol is. there is a hint to UDP, whi= ch is not a good choice to be used in this particular case
- there is not yet a real protocol described in the draft, but only the ske= letons of two protocols (binary and HTTP).

I would suggest (still speaking as individual) to first make some important= decisions, e.g., encoding, fix the document, etc and **afterwards** make a= new call for WG adoption.

Thanks,

=C2=A0Martin


martin.stiemerling@neclab.e= u

NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division
NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London = W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014


> -----Original Message-----
> From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM
> To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org
> Cc: Martin Stiemerling
> Subject: WG item adoption confirmation
>
> Hi all,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely a= dopt draft-gu-
> ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the mailing lis= t
> if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the draft = above will
> be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =E2=80=9Ctracker protocol=E2= =80=9D
> deliverable.Thanks.
>
> BR
> Yunfei
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> zhangyunfei
> 2011-03-29
> ________________________________
>
> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Cullen Jennings
> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2011-03-28 17:27:23
> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A = ppsp@ietf.org
> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A
> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80
>
>
> A =C2=A0few =C2=A0notes =C2=A0I =C2=A0took =C2=A0from =C2=A0the =C2=A0= meeting
>
> First, =C2=A0thank =C2=A0you =C2=A0to =C2=A0Christian =C2=A0Schmidt = =C2=A0for =C2=A0taking =C2=A0minutes =C2=A0and
> Martin =C2=A0Stiemerling =C2=A0for =C2=A0jabber =C2=A0scribing.
>
> We =C2=A0need =C2=A0to =C2=A0prioritize =C2=A0the =C2=A0use =C2=A0case= s =C2=A0and =C2=A0decide =C2=A0what =C2=A0we =C2=A0will
> work =C2=A0on =C2=A0first.
>
> draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement =C2=A0is =C2=A0getting =C2=A0close = =C2=A0to =C2=A0WGLC
>
> We =C2=A0will =C2=A0likely =C2=A0adopt =C2=A0draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-pro= tocol =C2=A0as =C2=A0a =C2=A0WG
> item
>
> Were =C2=A0about =C2=A060 =C2=A0people =C2=A0in =C2=A0room
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ppsp =C2=A0mailing =C2=A0list
> ppsp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

--000e0cd29e02935e5104a0691935-- From guyingjie@huawei.com Fri Apr 8 20:51:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4853A6978 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 20:51:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.779 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.779 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.379, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4McDJB04jrQi for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 20:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3DD33A683E for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 20:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LJD00DJ89FYG6@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 11:52:46 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml202-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LJD00B1R9FY0Z@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 11:52:46 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.32) by szxeml202-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 11:51:12 +0800 Received: from g00107907 (10.138.41.104) by SZXEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 11:52:45 +0800 Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 11:56:19 +0800 From: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.104] To: "'Rahman, Akbar'" , ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <001e01cbf66a$15a544f0$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_DnpDMWuK64bmX/+qiEC9dg)" Thread-index: AQHL7epoDgsxGrckpUuClIoxGws8pZRPZorQgALqOYCAAEfHAIACXEsQ Cc: 'Martin Stiemerling' Subject: Re: [ppsp] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgV0cgaXRlbSBhZG9wdGlvbiBjb25maXJtYXRp?= =?utf-8?q?on?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 03:51:24 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_DnpDMWuK64bmX/+qiEC9dg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Akbar, Thanks for your comments.=20 See inline please. =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of > Rahman, Akbar > Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 1:59 AM > To: ppsp@ietf.org > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > Subject: Re: [ppsp] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: WG item adoption confirmation >=20 > Hi, >=20 >=20 > I have read the draft, draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol, and have the = following > comments: >=20 > 1) In section 1 (Intro), there is the statement " At present, this = draft attempts to > allow for both a BitTorrent style offline and real-time streaming = protocol, but may > currently be biased a bit toward the offline approach, since the = decision of the > WG > is to use BitTorrent as a reference." >=20 > I don't think this is accurate. I do not see anywhere in the = charter, problem > Statement or requirements where this type of assumption is made. = Can the > authors > please explain why they say this? And also explain the impacts to = the draft if > this statement is proved to be wrong? =20 [gyj] This assumption is a legacy from previous version, I should remove = it. After discussion on previous meetings and on mailing list, most = voice from PPSP WG support text-based encoding. Hence, I move binary = encoding to appendix, so that we could recover it if we encounter = overwhelming support to binary encoding in IETF 80. Seems that people = were okay with text-based encoding in IETF 80 and I will remove appendix = in later version. =20 =20 > 2) How are the Trackers discovered? In section 4.2.1 (Bootstrapping) = it simply > says > that "Tracker discovery is out of scope of this specification". I = think we need > to be a bit more prescriptive then this. =20 [gyj] In draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02, section 4.2, it says =E2=80=9Cthe = tracker discovery and the possible communication between trackers are out of the scope of tracker protocol=E2=80=9D . = That=E2=80=99s why we make this description in Tracker protocol draft. =20 > 3) I think we need to have a separate "Security Considerations" = section in the > document > as is usually found in most drafts. At the present time, there are = security related > points spread throughout the document and I found it hard to deduce = the overall > security approach. [gyj] You are right, we need a dedicated =E2=80=9CSecurity = considerations=E2=80=9D. This will be improved in later version.=20 >=20 >=20 > I am OK to adopt the draft as a WG document after my comments are = addressed. >=20 [gyj] Thanks for your comments and support. > Akbar >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Ning > Zong > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:27 AM > To: 'Martin Stiemerling'; 'zhangyunfei'; 'Cullen Jennings'; = ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: WG item adoption confirmation >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I read the draft and support to adopt it as a starting point for = "Tracker > Protocol" deliverable. I'd also like to contribute to it by keeping it = align > with requirement draft. >=20 > BR, > Ning Zong >=20 > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Martin > Stiemerling > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: = 2011=E5=B9=B44=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5 22:57 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: zhangyunfei; Cullen Jennings; = ppsp@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation >=20 > Dear all, >=20 > I have serious doubts about whether the working group has read the = draft and > is fine with the impending adoption as WG item. >=20 > Basically, only Roni has expressed feedback to this. >=20 > I would suggest that the WG reads the draft and gives feedback until = April > 10th if the draft is **ok** to be accepted as WG item or if it is = **not > ok**. >=20 > Not sending any email to the list (i.e., pure silence) would read in = my > opinion as "we just do not care" and not as accept as WG item. Don't = care > doesn't seem to be a good option... >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Martin >=20 >=20 > martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu >=20 > NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division > NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, = London > W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation > > > > Hi all, > > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely adopt = draft-gu- > > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the mailing = list > > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the draft above = will > > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =E2=80=9Ctracker = protocol=E2=80=9D > > deliverable.Thanks. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2011-03-29 > > ________________________________ > > > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Cullen Jennings > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80 > > > > > > A few notes I took from the meeting > > > > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking minutes = and > > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. > > > > We need to prioritize the use cases and decide what we = will > > work on first. > > > > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to WGLC > > > > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as a WG > > item > > > > Were about 60 people in room > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp --Boundary_(ID_DnpDMWuK64bmX/+qiEC9dg) Content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Akbar,

Thanks for your comments. =

See inline = please.

 

> -----Original = Message-----

> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of

> Rahman, Akbar

> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 1:59 = AM

> To: ppsp@ietf.org

> Cc: Martin Stiemerling

> Subject: Re: [ppsp] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D= : WG item adoption confirmation

>

> Hi,

>

>

> I have read the draft, draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol, and have the following

> comments:

>

> 1) In section 1 (Intro), there is the = statement " At present, this draft attempts to

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0allow for both a = BitTorrent style offline and real-time streaming protocol, but may

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0currently be biased a = bit toward the offline approach, since the decision of the

> WG

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0is to use BitTorrent = as a reference."

>

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I don't think this is = accurate.=C2=A0 I do not see anywhere in the charter, problem

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Statement or = requirements where this type of assumption is made.=C2=A0 Can the

> authors

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0please explain why = they say this?=C2=A0 And also explain the impacts to the draft if

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0this statement is = proved to be wrong?

 

[gyj] This assumption is a legacy = from previous version, I should remove it. After discussion on previous = meetings and on mailing list, most voice from PPSP WG support text-based encoding. = Hence, I move binary encoding to appendix, so that we could recover it if we = encounter overwhelming support to binary encoding in IETF 80. Seems that people = were okay with text-based encoding in IETF 80 and I will remove appendix in later = version.

 

 

> 2) How are the Trackers = discovered?=C2=A0 In section 4.2.1 (Bootstrapping) it simply

> says

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0that "Tracker = discovery is out of scope of this specification".=C2=A0 I think we need

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0to be a bit more = prescriptive then this.

 

[gyj] In =
draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-02, section 4.2, it says =E2=80=9Cthe tracker =
discovery and the possible =
communication
=C2=A0=C2=A0 between =
trackers are out of the scope of tracker protocol=E2=80=9D . =
That=E2=80=99s why we make this description in Tracker protocol =
draft.

 

> 3) I think we need to have a separate "Security Considerations" section in the

> document

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0as is usually found in = most drafts.=C2=A0 At the present time, there are security related

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0points spread = throughout the document and I found it hard to deduce the overall

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0security = approach.

[gyj] You are right, we need a = dedicated =E2=80=9CSecurity considerations=E2=80=9D. This will be improved in later version. =

>

>

> I am OK to adopt the draft as a WG = document after my comments are addressed.

>

[gyj] Thanks for your comments and = support.

> Akbar

>

>

> -----Original = Message-----

> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ning

> Zong

> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:27 = AM

> To: 'Martin Stiemerling'; 'zhangyunfei'; = 'Cullen Jennings'; ppsp@ietf.org

> Subject: [ppsp] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D= : WG item adoption confirmation

>

> Hi,

>

> I read the draft and support to adopt it = as a starting point for "Tracker

> Protocol" deliverable. I'd also = like to contribute to it by keeping it align

> with requirement = draft.

>

> BR,

> Ning Zong

>

> -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB= =B6-----

> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8= Martin

> Stiemerling

> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97= =B4: 2011=E5=B9=B44=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5 22:57

> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: zhangyunfei; Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org

> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98= : Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation

>

> Dear all,

>

> I have serious doubts about whether the = working group has read the draft and

> is fine with the impending adoption as = WG item.

>

> Basically, only Roni has expressed = feedback to this.

>

> I would suggest that the WG reads the = draft and gives feedback until April

> 10th if the draft is **ok** to be = accepted as WG item or if it is **not

> ok**.

>

> Not sending any email to the list (i.e., = pure silence) would read in my

> opinion as "we just do not = care" and not as accept as WG item. Don't care

> doesn't seem to be a good = option...

>

> Thanks,

>

> =C2=A0=C2=A0Martin

>

>

> martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu

>

> NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division

> NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: = NEC House, 1 Victoria = Road, London

> W3 6BL | Registered in = England = 2832014

>

>

> > -----Original = Message-----

> > From: zhangyunfei = [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]

> > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 = AM

> > To: Cullen Jennings; = ppsp@ietf.org

> > Cc: Martin = Stiemerling

> > Subject: WG item adoption = confirmation

> >

> > Hi all,

> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As discussed in = yesterday's meeting, we will likely adopt draft-gu-

> > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG = item. Please post on the mailing list

> > if you have any objections on this = before Apr. 10th.

> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If there = are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the draft above will

> > be accepted as WG document = fulfilling the =E2=80=9Ctracker protocol=E2=80=9D

> > = deliverable.Thanks.

> >

> > BR

> > Yunfei

> >

> >

> >

> > = ________________________________

> >

> > zhangyunfei

> > 2011-03-29

> > = ________________________________

> >

> > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC= =9A Cullen Jennings

> > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97= =B4=EF=BC=9A 2011-03-28 = 17:27:23

> > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC= =9A ppsp@ietf.org

> > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A

> > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80

> >

> >

> > A=C2=A0 few=C2=A0 notes=C2=A0 = I=C2=A0 took=C2=A0 from=C2=A0 the=C2=A0 meeting

> >

> > First,=C2=A0 thank=C2=A0 you=C2=A0 = to=C2=A0 Christian=C2=A0 Schmidt=C2=A0 for=C2=A0 taking=C2=A0 minutes=C2=A0 and

> > Martin=C2=A0 Stiemerling=C2=A0 = for=C2=A0 jabber=C2=A0 scribing.

> >

> > We=C2=A0 need=C2=A0 to=C2=A0 = prioritize=C2=A0 the=C2=A0 use =C2=A0cases=C2=A0 and=C2=A0 decide=C2=A0 what=C2=A0 we=C2=A0 will

> > work=C2=A0 on=C2=A0 = first.

> >

> > = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement=C2=A0 is=C2=A0 getting=C2=A0 close=C2=A0 to=C2=A0 WGLC

> >

> > We=C2=A0 will=C2=A0 likely=C2=A0 = adopt=C2=A0 draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol=C2=A0 as=C2=A0 a=C2=A0 = WG

> > item

> >

> > Were=C2=A0 about=C2=A0 60=C2=A0 = people=C2=A0 in=C2=A0 room

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > _______________________________________________

> > ppsp=C2=A0 mailing=C2=A0 = list

> > ppsp@ietf.org

> > = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

> = _______________________________________________

> ppsp mailing list

> ppsp@ietf.org

> = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

>

>

> = _______________________________________________

> ppsp mailing list

> ppsp@ietf.org

> = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

> = _______________________________________________

> ppsp mailing list

> ppsp@ietf.org

> = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

--Boundary_(ID_DnpDMWuK64bmX/+qiEC9dg)-- From guyingjie@huawei.com Fri Apr 8 21:10:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34763A6A77 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 21:10:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.032 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.032 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.578, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VJ0eFxNCleFk for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 21:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36EBB3A6A76 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 21:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LJD00HL6ABO0I@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:11:49 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml205-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LJD00BOTABO0Z@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:11:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.31) by szxeml205-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.57) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:11:41 +0800 Received: from g00107907 (10.138.41.104) by SZXEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:11:47 +0800 Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:15:22 +0800 From: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.104] To: 'Ping Pan' , 'Martin Stiemerling' Message-id: <002901cbf66c$bf1a8c00$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_3wXzRbXnrG8W9akXGhRxNg)" Thread-index: Acv1Ie2m545A805ORPayLQ5Tt/Cd1ABSDffw Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 04:10:16 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_3wXzRbXnrG8W9akXGhRxNg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ping, See inline please. =20 =20 _____ =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Ping Pan Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 8:43 PM To: Martin Stiemerling Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =20 Curious: which encoding will it be? Binary or HTTP? =20 If binary is not a part of the protocol, why is it taking over 1/3 of = the document as appendix? [gyj] At IETF 79, we asked people for their opinions on encoding, most, = if not all, voice from meeting support text-based encoding. The same = opinion on mailing list before IETF 80. So, in Tracker protocol = presentation in IETF 80 we made a decision to propose text-based = encoding. In draft, we moved binary encoding to appendix, because we = still need the feedback from IETF 80 PPSP session discussion. If we = encountered overwhelming support to binary encoding, we can recover it = from appendix. If no strong opposition to text-based encoding, we will = remove binary encoding from the draft forever. Now, since no strong = opposition to text-based encoding at IETF 80, we will remove binary = encoding in later version.=20 =20 If HTTP, it may be helpful if it can provide the same level of details = as illustrated in Alto protocol design. =20 [gyj] we will add more detail in updated version.=20 Also, from the survey, it shows that there are many existing tracker = protocols. How did we reach the conclusion of using HTTP? [gyj] IETF suggests reuse existing protocol as much as we can. HTTP can = be a suitable candidate. Any other suitable candidate protocol are = welcome, we can analyze and compare them.=20 =20 Thanks! [gyj] Thanks for your comments. - Ping 2011/4/5 Martin Stiemerling Dear all, I have serious doubts about whether the working group has read the draft = and is fine with the impending adoption as WG item. Basically, only Roni has expressed feedback to this. I would suggest that the WG reads the draft and gives feedback until = April 10th if the draft is **ok** to be accepted as WG item or if it is = **not ok**. Not sending any email to the list (i.e., pure silence) would read in my = opinion as "we just do not care" and not as accept as WG item. Don't = care doesn't seem to be a good option... Thanks, Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, = London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 > -----Original Message----- > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation > > Hi all, > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely adopt draft-gu- > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the mailing = list > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the draft above will > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =E2=80=9Ctracker = protocol=E2=80=9D > deliverable.Thanks. > > BR > Yunfei > > > > ________________________________ > > zhangyunfei > 2011-03-29 > ________________________________ > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Cullen Jennings > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80 > > > A few notes I took from the meeting > > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking minutes and > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. > > We need to prioritize the use cases and decide what we will > work on first. > > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to WGLC > > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as a WG > item > > Were about 60 people in room > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp =20 --Boundary_(ID_3wXzRbXnrG8W9akXGhRxNg) Content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Ping,

See inline = please.

 =

 =

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ping Pan
Sent: Thursday, April 07, = 2011 8:43 PM
To: Martin = Stiemerling
Cc: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG = item adoption confirmation

 

Curious: which = encoding will it be? Binary or HTTP?

 

If binary is not a part of the protocol, why is it taking over 1/3 of the = document as appendix?

[gyj] At IETF = 79, we asked people for their opinions on encoding, most, if not all, voice = from meeting support text-based encoding. The same opinion on mailing list before = IETF 80. So, in Tracker protocol presentation in IETF 80 we made a decision to = propose text-based encoding. In draft, we moved binary encoding to appendix, = because we still need the feedback from IETF 80 PPSP session discussion. If we = encountered overwhelming support to binary encoding, we can recover it from = appendix. If no strong opposition to text-based encoding, we will remove binary encoding = from the draft forever. Now, since no strong opposition to text-based = encoding at IETF 80, we will remove binary encoding in later version. =

 

If HTTP, it may be helpful if it can provide the same level of details as illustrated in  Alto protocol design.

 

=

[gyj] we will = add more detail in updated version.

Also, from the survey, it shows that there are many existing tracker = protocols. How did we reach the conclusion of using HTTP?

[gyj] IETF = suggests reuse existing protocol as much as we can. HTTP can be a suitable candidate. = Any other suitable candidate protocol are welcome, we can analyze and = compare them.

 

Thanks!

[gyj] Thanks for your = comments.

- Ping

2011/4/5 Martin Stiemerling <Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu= >

Dear all,

I have serious doubts about whether the working group has read the draft = and is fine with the impending adoption as WG item.

Basically, only Roni has expressed feedback to this.

I would suggest that the WG reads the draft and gives feedback until = April 10th if the draft is **ok** to be accepted as WG item or if it is **not = ok**.

Not sending any email to the list (i.e., pure silence) would read in my = opinion as "we just do not care" and not as accept as WG item. Don't = care doesn't seem to be a good option...

Thanks,

 Martin


martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu=

NEC Laboratories Europe - Network = Research Division
NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in = England = 2832014



> -----Original Message-----
> From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM
> To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org
> Cc: Martin Stiemerling

> Subject: WG item adoption confirmation
>
> Hi all,
>    As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely = adopt draft-gu-
> ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the mailing = list
> if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th.
>     If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the = draft above will
> be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =E2=80=9Ctracker = protocol=E2=80=9D
> deliverable.Thanks.
>
> BR
> Yunfei
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> zhangyunfei
> 2011-03-29
> ________________________________
>
> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A = Cullen Jennings
> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2011-03-28 17:27:23
> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org
> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A
> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A [ppsp] Notes = from PPSP meeting IETF80
>
>
> A  few  notes  I  took  from  the  meeting
>
> First,  thank  you  to  Christian  Schmidt  for  taking  minutes  and
> Martin  Stiemerling  for  jabber  scribing.
>
> We  need  to  prioritize  the  use =  cases  and  decide  what  we  will
> work  on  first.
>
> draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement  is  getting =  close  to  WGLC
>
> We  will  likely  adopt  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol  as  a  WG
> item
>
> Were  about  60  people  in  room
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ppsp  mailing  list
> ppsp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

 

--Boundary_(ID_3wXzRbXnrG8W9akXGhRxNg)-- From guyingjie@huawei.com Fri Apr 8 23:06:15 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE1293A6866 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 23:06:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.071 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.071 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.539, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5agSltMkRuMd for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 23:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CB23A6860 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 23:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LJD007A2FOOF5@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 14:07:36 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml202-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LJD0069EFOOLB@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 14:07:36 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.31) by szxeml202-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 14:06:02 +0800 Received: from g00107907 (10.138.41.104) by SZXEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 14:07:35 +0800 Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 14:11:29 +0800 From: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.104] To: 'Ping Pan' , 'Martin Stiemerling' Message-id: <003401cbf67c$f7cbd760$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_TtKwnYlW0eWffhditVXwtQ)" Thread-index: Acv1+jM2mMR9e427QJCI6+RsjsmozQAbWy7Q Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 06:06:16 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_TtKwnYlW0eWffhditVXwtQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Martin, See inline please. =20 =20 2011/4/8 Martin Stiemerling < = Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu> [speaking as individual - not as PPSP co-chair] Hi there, Here is my incomplete review of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 and my = opinion of whether it is ready to become WG item: - Why are there still 2 encodings in the draft? Isn't it time to = conclude on one encoding? =20 [gyj] The binary encoding has been moved to appendix. We have discussed = on previous meetings and got rough consensus on choosing text-based = encoding. As a history of Tracker protocol, we still leave binary = encoding in appendix, we can remove it later. See more detail in my = response to Ping Pan=E2=80=99s comments. - Section 1: "the main part is the abstract description of the = operations...". This means that this is actually not a draft about the = tracker protocol? [gyj] I should revise this sentence. At the very beginning of composing = Tracker protocol, main part of draft was descriptive. However, after = several round of discussion and revision, the main part is message = definition and encoding. I will revise this description in updated = version.=20 - Section 1: "for both a bittorrent style offline and real-time = streaming protocol". Why is it so? We are in PPSP, so we should work on = something for streaming, isn't it? [gyj] Definitely we should work for streaming. The sentence you have = cited implies that we should take both offline streaming (provided as = file) and real-time streaming (e.g. TV broadcast) in consideration.=20 - Why is there the notion of battery level in the status messages? [gyj] This is a requirement from mobile peer, in which case, battery = level is an important property of peer. I remembered there was some = discussion on mobile peer support before either on meeting discussion or = on mailing list.=20 =20 - Section 9.1.3: What is the issue with fragmentation in here? [gyj] This is an open issue. I think fragmentation makes more sense in = Peer-peer traffic than in tracker-peer communication. David Bryan, = co-author of tracker protocol could give more explaination. - What is the transport protocol where the tracker protocol should run = over? [gyj] The definition of Tracker protocol in draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs is = =E2=80=9CThe tracker protocol defines how the peers report and request information to/from the tracker and how the tracker replies to the = requests. =E2=80=9D Choosing which transport protocol is not in scope = of Tracker protocol definition.=20 Besides, in draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03, section 4.1, =E2=80=9C = PPSP.REQ-7: The tracker protocol and peer protocol are Recommended to be = carried over TCP (or UDP, when delivery requirements cannot be met by = TCP). So Tracker protocol will first consider running on TCP. However, = in order to improve applicability, Tracker protocol may also need to = consider specific requirements, e.g. retransmission, of UDP as transport = protocol. No matter which transport protocol is chosen, message exchange = definition and encoding shouldn=E2=80=99t be influence. The proposed methods look reasonable, but the overall draft organization = still suffers from what Section 1 hints to that it is solely an abstract = description of the operations. [gyj] The authors promise to correct the historic mis-wording in updated = version. Sorry for the confusion.=20 I'm **not** in favor of getting draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 to be = a WG item, for these reasons: - document quality is not good enough in my opinion - it is unclear what the transport protocol is. there is a hint to UDP, = which is not a good choice to be used in this particular case =E2=80=9D [gyj] Please refer to my answer above. - there is not yet a real protocol described in the draft, but only the = skeletons of two protocols (binary and HTTP). I would suggest (still speaking as individual) to first make some = important decisions, e.g., encoding, fix the document, etc and = **afterwards** make a new call for WG adoption. [gyj] I was unable to present Tracker protocol by myself at Prague. But = at IETF 79 and mailing list discussion before IETF 80, the authors asked = for opinions on encoding, most, if not all, voice support text-based = encoding. So the authors decided to use text-based encoding and asked = for feedback in IETF80 presentation. If there was no strong opposition, = I believe we have gotten rough consensus on text-based encoding.=20 Thanks, [gyj] Thanks for your comments. I propose the WG to adopt Tracker = protocol because the basic open issues, i.e. encoding and NAT Traversal, = have been decided, and no announced opposition to methods definition. = The definition of Tracker protocol influences the definition of Peer = protocol a lot, as we have listed in slides. So the later the maturity = of Tracker protocol, the slower the progress on Peer Protocol. The = adoption of Tracker protocol draft will absorb more effort from the WG = to make it completed in detail.=20 Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, = London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 > -----Original Message----- > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation > > Hi all, > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely adopt draft-gu- > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the mailing = list > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the draft above will > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =E9=88=A5=E6=B8=A2racker = protocol=E9=88=A5?br> > deliverable.Thanks. > > BR > Yunfei > > > > ________________________________ > > zhangyunfei > 2011-03-29 > ________________________________ > > =E9=8D=99=E6=88=9C=E6=AC=A2=E6=B5=9C=E7=8C=B4=E7=B4=B0 Cullen Jennings > = =E9=8D=99=E6=88=A6=E2=82=AC=E4=BD=B9=E6=A4=82=E9=97=82=E8=BE=BE=E7=B4=B0 = 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > =E9=8F=80=E6=9C=B5=E6=AC=A2=E6=B5=9C=E7=8C=B4=E7=B4=B0 ppsp@ietf.org > =E9=8E=B6=E5=8B=AF=E2=82=AC=E4=BE=8A=E7=B4=B0 > =E6=B6=93=E5=A9=9A=EE=95=BD=E9=94=9B?[ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting = IETF80 > > > A few notes I took from the meeting > > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking minutes and > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. > > We need to prioritize the use cases and decide what we will > work on first. > > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to WGLC > > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as a WG > item > > Were about 60 people in room > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp =20 --Boundary_(ID_TtKwnYlW0eWffhditVXwtQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Martin,

See inline = please.

 =

 

2011/4/8 Martin Stiemerling <Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu>

[speaking as individual - not as PPSP co-chair]

Hi there,

Here is my incomplete review of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 and my opinion of whether it is ready to become WG item:

- Why are there still 2 encodings in the draft? Isn't it time to = conclude on one encoding?

 =

[gyj] The binary = encoding has been moved to appendix. We have discussed on previous meetings and = got rough consensus on choosing text-based encoding. As a history of Tracker protocol, we still leave binary encoding in appendix, we can remove it = later. See more detail in my response to Ping Pan=E2=80=99s = comments.


- Section 1: "the main part is the abstract description of the operations...". This means that this is actually not a draft about = the tracker protocol?

[gyj] I should = revise this sentence. At the very beginning of composing Tracker protocol, main = part of draft was descriptive. However, after several round of discussion and revision, the main part is message definition and encoding. I will = revise this description in updated version.


- Section 1: "for both a bittorrent style offline and real-time = streaming protocol". Why is it so? We are in PPSP, so we should work on = something for streaming, isn't it?

[gyj] Definitely = we should work for streaming. The sentence you have cited implies that we = should take both offline streaming (provided as file) and real-time streaming = (e.g. TV broadcast) in consideration.


- Why is there the notion of battery level in the status messages?
[gyj] This is a = requirement from mobile peer, in which case, battery level is an important property of = peer. I remembered there was some discussion on mobile peer support before = either on meeting discussion or on mailing list. =

 =

- Section 9.1.3: What is the issue with = fragmentation in here?

[gyj] This is an open =
issue. I think fragmentation makes more sense in Peer-peer traffic than =
in tracker-peer communication. =C2=A0David Bryan, co-author of tracker =
protocol could give more explaination.

- What is the transport protocol where the tracker protocol should run =
over?

[gyj] The definition of Tracker protocol in =
draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs is =E2=80=9CThe tracker =
protocol defines how the peers report and =
request
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
information to/from the tracker and how the tracker replies to the =
requests. =E2=80=9D =C2=A0Choosing which =
transport protocol is not in scope of Tracker protocol definition. =

Besides, in =
draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03, section 4.1, =E2=80=9C=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
PPSP.REQ-7: The tracker protocol and peer protocol are Recommended to be =
carried over TCP (or UDP, when delivery requirements cannot be met by =
TCP). So Tracker protocol will first consider running on TCP. However, =
in order to improve applicability, Tracker protocol may also need to =
consider specific requirements, e.g. retransmission, of UDP as transport =
protocol. No matter which transport protocol is chosen, message exchange =
definition and encoding shouldn=E2=80=99t be =
influence.


The proposed methods look reasonable, but the overall draft = organization still suffers from what Section 1 hints to that it is solely an abstract description of the operations.

[gyj] The authors promise = to correct the historic mis-wording in updated version. Sorry for the confusion. =

I'm **not** in favor of getting draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 to be = a WG item, for these reasons:
- document quality is not good enough in my opinion
- it is unclear what the transport protocol is. there is a hint to UDP, = which is not a good choice to be used in this particular case

=E2=80=9D
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 [gyj] Please refer to my answer =
above.


- there is not yet a real protocol described in the draft, but only the skeletons of two protocols (binary and HTTP).

I would suggest (still speaking as individual) to first make some = important decisions, e.g., encoding, fix the document, etc and **afterwards** make = a new call for WG adoption.

[gyj] I was unable to present = Tracker protocol by myself at Prague. But at IETF 79 and mailing list discussion before IETF 80, the authors = asked for opinions on encoding, most, if not all, voice support text-based = encoding. So the authors decided to use text-based encoding and asked for feedback in = IETF80 presentation. If there was no strong opposition, I believe we have gotten rough = consensus on text-based encoding.
Thanks,
[gyj] Thanks for your = comments. I propose the WG to adopt Tracker protocol because the basic open issues, i.e. = encoding and NAT Traversal, have been decided, and no announced opposition to = methods definition. The definition of Tracker protocol influences the definition = of Peer protocol a lot, as we have listed in slides. So the later the maturity = of Tracker protocol, the slower the progress on Peer Protocol. The adoption of = Tracker protocol draft will absorb more effort from the WG to make it completed in = detail.
 Martin


martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu=

NEC Laboratories Europe - Network = Research Division
NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in = England 2832014


> -----Original Message-----
> From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM
> To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org
> Cc: Martin Stiemerling
> Subject: WG item adoption confirmation
>

> Hi all,
>    As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely = adopt draft-gu-
> ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the mailing = list
> if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th.
>     If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the = draft above will
> be accepted as WG document fulfilling the = =E9=88=A5=E6=B8=A2racker protocol=E9=88=A5?br> > = deliverable.Thanks.
>
> BR
> Yunfei
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> zhangyunfei
> 2011-03-29
> ________________________________
>
> =E9=8D=99=E6=88=9C=E6=AC=A2=E6=B5=9C=E7=8C=B4=E7=B4=B0 Cullen Jennings
> =E9=8D=99=E6=88=A6=E2=82=AC=E4=BD=B9=E6=A4=82=E9=97=82=E8=BE=BE=E7=B4=B0= 2011-03-28 17:27:23
> =E9=8F=80=E6=9C=B5=E6=AC=A2=E6=B5=9C=E7=8C=B4=E7=B4=B0 ppsp@ietf.org
> =E9=8E=B6=E5=8B=AF=E2=82=AC=E4=BE=8A=E7=B4=B0
> =E6=B6=93=E5=A9=9A=EE=95=BD=E9=94=9B?[ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80
>
>
> A  few  notes  I  took  from  the  meeting
>
> First,  thank  you  to  Christian  Schmidt  for  taking  minutes  and
> Martin  Stiemerling  for  jabber  scribing.
>
> We  need  to  prioritize  the  use =  cases  and  decide  what  we  will
> work  on  first.
>
> draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement  is  getting =  close  to  WGLC
>
> We  will  likely  adopt  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol  as  a  WG
> item
>
> Were  about  60  people  in  room
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ppsp  mailing  list
> ppsp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

 

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13 Apr 2011 00:35:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.957 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.957 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HfJjFX6tZcnZ for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 00:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6BD7E06B9 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 00:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB7FB686; Tue, 12 Apr 2011 12:03:27 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F261B65E; Tue, 12 Apr 2011 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X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:35:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon152078023183_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgYWxsLA0KICAgICAgRm9yIHRoZSB0cmFuc3BvcnQgcHJvdG9jb2wsIHdoaWNoIGlzIGJleW9u ZCB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBzY29wZSBvZiBQUFNQLCBhcyBzdWdnZXN0ZWQgaW4gdGhlIGNoYXJ0ZXIu IEhvd2V2ZXIgd2hlbiB3ZSB0YWxrIGFib3V0IHRoZSB0cmFuc3BvcnQgcHJvdG9jb2wgdXNlZCBp biBwcmFjdGljZSBmb3IgUDJQIHN0cmVhbWluZyBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMsIFVEUCBoYXMgYmVlbiBz ZWVuIHRoZSBtb3N0IGNvbW1vbmx5IHVzZWQgcHJvdG9jb2wgbm93LCB3aXRoIHRoZSB0cmFuc2l0 aW9uIGZyb20gVENQIHRvIFVEUCBib3RoIGZvciBkYXRhIHRyYW5zcG9ydC4gQW5kIG1hbnkgYXBw 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--=====003_Dragon152078023183_=====-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Fri Apr 15 01:32:11 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F619E0693 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 01:32:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.445 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.445 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.154, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MlN8VzVigzGh for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 01:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp0.neclab.eu (smtp0.neclab.eu [195.37.70.41]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA820E065A for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 01:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp0.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241F52C000089 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:32:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas2.office.hd) Received: from smtp0.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas2.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kNsH4K4s3c7M for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:32:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by smtp0.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 099DD2C000086 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:32:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Polydeuces.office.hd ([169.254.3.246]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:32:01 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft meeting minutes IETF#80 Thread-Index: Acv7R5ZOErVj3wT6ToaG8sbZnk5fzw== Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 08:32:01 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.67] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ppsp] Draft meeting minutes IETF#80 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 08:32:11 -0000 Dear all, The draft meeting minutes for the IETF#80 meeting are now online: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/80/minutes/ppsp.txt Please check if there are correct. Thanks to Christian for taking the notes. Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London = W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014=20 From lin.xiao@nsn.com Fri Apr 15 06:26:41 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6DAAE0742 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:26:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.182 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.182 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.483, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uHHoaTLvjIBI for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7813E06D9 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p3FDQT10007014 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:26:29 +0200 Received: from demuexc025.nsn-intra.net (demuexc025.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.12]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p3FDQRJx015994; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:26:29 +0200 Received: from CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.192.12]) by demuexc025.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:26:26 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CBFB70.B710AFB4" Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 21:26:23 +0800 Message-ID: <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDB013DAEBF@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: <201104121203222940840@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Thread-Index: Acv5rXJFOr5hI0iISp2g+kY8hk7TwgBwfGRA References: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> <201104121203222940840@chinamobile.com> From: "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" To: "ext zhangyunfei" , "Martin Stiemerling" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Apr 2011 13:26:26.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[B908ED30:01CBFB70] Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:26:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBFB70.B710AFB4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,=20 =20 I think PPSP WG has the interest to study the PPSP tracker protocol,and = "draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03" is the only draft on the table, so = we should accept this as WG draft. It's true that efforts are still = needed to improve the quality of the draft, but more work still can be = done after it's accepted as a WG draft, right? Do we have another = choice? =20 =20 BR=20 Lin =20 =20 ________________________________ From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:03 PM To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Hi all, For the transport protocol, which is beyond the current scope of = PPSP, as suggested in the charter. However when we talk about the = transport protocol used in practice for P2P streaming applications, UDP = has been seen the most commonly used protocol now, with the transition = from TCP to UDP both for data transport. And many applications(e.g., = ppstream, pplive) even change from TCP to use UDP for signaling = transport(draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-00).=20 The rational behind this is that firstly, streaming applications = *don't*care much of packet loss and secondly, p2p streaming tracker and = peer query mechanism ensures there are *enough* active peers to exchange = data, so a peer doesn't care *much* if one request is successfully = transmitted or not. This is proven in wired network. But when we = consider a converged environment, we may need more investigation on = whether UDP is *enough* for transport. For the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is = acceptable by most guys and there are some uncertainty on "binary", I = would suggest (individually) to add one section to analyze the strengh = and drawback of both encodings in the protocol draft.=20 Regarding the WG item adoption, I would like to see that there is = rough consensus on the questions recently raised and discussed in the = mailing list before the adoption. =20 BR Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-04-12 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-04-08 22:25:40 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =20 [speaking as individual - not as PPSP co-chair] =20 Hi there, =20 Here is my incomplete review of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 = and my opinion of whether it is ready to become WG item: =20 - Why are there still 2 encodings in the draft? Isn't it = time to conclude on one encoding? - Section 1: "the main part is the abstract description of = the operations...". This means that this is actually not a = draft about the tracker protocol? - Section 1: "for both a bittorrent style offline and = real-time streaming protocol". Why is it so? We are in PPSP, = so we should work on something for streaming, isn't it? - Why is there the notion of battery level in the status = messages? - Section 9.1.3: What is the issue with fragmentation in here? = =20 - What is the transport protocol where the tracker protocol = should run over? =20 The proposed methods look reasonable, but the overall draft = organization still suffers from what Section 1 hints to that = it is solely an abstract description of the operations. =20 =20 =20 =20 I'm **not** in favor of getting draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 = to be a WG item, for these reasons: - document quality is not good enough in my opinion - it is unclear what the transport protocol is. there is a = hint to UDP, which is not a good choice to be used in this = particular case - there is not yet a real protocol described in the draft, = but only the skeletons of two protocols (binary and HTTP). =20 =20 I would suggest (still speaking as individual) to first make = some important decisions, e.g., encoding, fix the document, etc = and **afterwards** make a new call for WG adoption. =20 Thanks, =20 Martin =20 =20 martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu =20 NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria = Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 =20 =20 =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation > =20 > Hi all, > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely = adopt draft-gu- > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the = mailing list > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the = draft above will > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =A1=B0tracker = protocol=A1=B1 > deliverable.Thanks. > =20 > BR > Yunfei > =20 > =20 > =20 > ________________________________ > =20 > zhangyunfei > 2011-03-29 > ________________________________ > =20 > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen Jennings > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80 > =20 > =20 > A few notes I took from the meeting > =20 > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking = minutes and > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. > =20 > We need to prioritize the use cases and = decide what we will > work on first. > =20 > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to = WGLC > =20 > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as = a WG > item > =20 > Were about 60 people in room > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBFB70.B710AFB4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
I think PPSP WG has the interest to study the PPSP = tracker=20 protocol,and "draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03" is the only draft = on the=20 table, so we should accept this as WG draft. It's true = that efforts=20 are still needed to improve the quality of the draft, but more work = still=20 can be done after it's accepted as a WG draft, right?  Do we = have=20 another choice?
 
 
BR
Lin
 
 
From:=20 ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext=20 zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:03 = PM
To:=20 Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item = adoption=20 confirmation

Hi all,
      For=20 the transport protocol, which is beyond the current scope of PPSP, as = suggested=20 in the charter. However when we talk about the transport protocol used = in=20 practice for P2P streaming applications, UDP has been seen the most = commonly=20 used protocol now, with the transition from TCP to UDP both for data = transport.=20 And many applications(e.g., ppstream, pplive) even change from TCP = to use=20 UDP for signaling=20 transport(draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-00). =
       The rational behind = this is=20 that firstly, streaming applications *don't*care much of packet loss and = secondly, p2p streaming tracker and peer query mechanism ensures = there are=20 *enough* active peers to exchange data, so a peer doesn't care *much* if = one=20 request is successfully transmitted or not. This is proven in wired = network.=20 But when we = consider a converged=20 environment, we may need more investigation on whether UDP is = *enough*=20 for transport.
      For=20 the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is acceptable by = most guys=20 and there are some uncertainty on "binary", I would suggest = (individually) to=20 add one section to analyze the strengh and drawback of both = encodings in=20 the protocol draft. 
      Regarding the WG item = adoption,=20 I would like to see that there is rough consensus on the questions = recently=20 raised and discussed in the mailing list before the = adoption.
 
BR
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
2011-04-12
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin=20 Stiemerling
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA=20 2011-04-08 22:25:40
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] WG item=20 adoption confirmation
 
[speaking  as  individual  -  not  as =  PPSP=20  co-chair]
 
Hi  there,
 
Here  is  my  incomplete  review  of=20  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03  and  my  opinion =  of  whether  it  is  ready  to =  become=20  WG  item:
 
-  Why  are  there  still  2 =  encodings=20  in  the  draft?  Isn't  it  time  to =  conclude  on  one  encoding?
-  Section  1:  "the  main  part  is=20  the  abstract  description  of  the=20  operations...".  This  means  that  this =  is=20  actually  not  a  draft  about  the =  tracker=20  protocol?
-  Section  1:  "for  both  a =  bittorrent=20  style  offline  and  real-time  streaming=20  protocol".  Why  is  it  so?  We =  are=20  in  PPSP,  so  we  should  work  on=20  something  for  streaming,  isn't  it?
-  Why  is  there  the  notion  of=20  battery  level  in  the  status =  messages?
-  Section  9.1.3:  What  is  the =  issue=20  with  fragmentation  in  here?  
-  What  is  the  transport  protocol =  where=20  the  tracker  protocol  should  run =  over?
 
The  proposed  methods  look  reasonable, =  but=20  the  overall  draft  organization  still =  suffers=20  from  what  Section  1  hints  to =  that=20  it  is  solely  an  abstract  description =  of  the  operations.  
 
 
 
I'm  **not**  in  favor  of  getting=20  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03  to  be  a =  WG=20  item,  for  these  reasons:
-  document  quality  is  not  good =  enough=20  in  my  opinion
-  it  is  unclear  what  the =  transport=20  protocol  is.  there  is  a  hint =  to=20  UDP,  which  is  not  a  good =  choice=20  to  be  used  in  this  particular=20  case
-  there  is  not  yet  a  real=20  protocol  described  in  the  draft,  but =  only  the  skeletons  of  two  protocols=20  (binary  and  HTTP).  
 
I  would  suggest  (still  speaking  as=20  individual)  to  first  make  some =  important=20  decisions,  e.g.,  encoding,  fix  the =  document,=20  etc  and  **afterwards**  make  a  new =  call=20  for  WG  adoption.
 
Thanks,
 
   Martin
 
 
martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu
 
NEC  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network =  Research=20  Division
NEC  Europe  Limited  |  Registered =  Office:=20  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,  London =  W3=20  6BL  |  Registered  in  England  2832014=20  
 
 
>  -----Original  Message-----
>  From:  zhangyunfei=20  [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
>  Sent:  Tuesday,  March  29,  2011=20  10:22  AM
>  To:  Cullen  Jennings; =  ppsp@ietf.org
>  Cc:  Martin  Stiemerling
>  Subject:  WG  item  adoption=20  confirmation
>  
>  Hi  all,
>        As  discussed  in=20  yesterday's  meeting,  we  will  likely =  adopt=20  draft-gu-
>  ppsp-tracker-protocol  as  a  new =  WG=20  item.  Please  post  on  the  mailing=20  list
>  if  you  have  any  objections =  on=20  this  before  Apr.  10th.
>          If  there  are =  no=20  objections  by  Apr.  10th  2011,  the=20  draft  above  will
>  be  accepted  as  WG  document=20  fulfilling  the  =A1=B0tracker =  protocol=A1=B1
>  deliverable.Thanks.
>  
>  BR
>  Yunfei
>  
>  
>  
>  ________________________________
>  
>  zhangyunfei
>  2011-03-29
>  ________________________________
>  
>  =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  Cullen =  Jennings
>  =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA  2011-03-28 =  17:27:23
>  =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  ppsp@ietf.org
>  =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
>  =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA  [ppsp]  Notes  from =  PPSP  meeting=20  IETF80
>  
>  
>  A    few    notes    I =  =20  took    from    the    meeting
>  
>  First,    thank    you   =  to=20    Christian    Schmidt    for   =  taking=20    minutes    and
>  Martin    Stiemerling    for  =20  jabber    scribing.
>  
>  We    need    to   =  prioritize=20    the    use    cases    and =  =20  decide    what    we    will
>  work    on    first.
>  
>  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement    is   =  getting    close    to    WGLC
>  
>  We    will    likely   =  adopt=20    draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol    as   =  a=20    WG
>  item
>  
>  Were    about    60   =  people=20    in    room
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  ppsp    mailing    list
>  ppsp@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
_______________________________________________
ppsp  mailing  list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
= ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBFB70.B710AFB4-- From ping@pingpan.org Fri Apr 15 06:57:56 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9393E072B for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:57:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.042 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.042 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zjfktig2jZ1F for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og123.obsmtp.com (exprod7og123.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.24]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DA3C5E0721 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f177.google.com ([74.125.83.177]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob123.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTahO3lY6kS9bT8OwJL2YoMezJNDneUAo@postini.com; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:57:50 PDT Received: by mail-pv0-f177.google.com with SMTP id 11so1694035pvh.22 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.43.103 with SMTP id v7mr1995305pbl.210.1302875870187; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:57:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.50.164 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:57:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDB013DAEBF@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> References: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> <201104121203222940840@chinamobile.com> <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDB013DAEBF@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> From: Ping Pan Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:57:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec53aed8a6dcfa204a0f56df2 Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:57:57 -0000 --bcaec53aed8a6dcfa204a0f56df2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting logic! I go a restaurant for vegetarian food. Instead, I'm offered with steak. Wha= t would my choices? Eat the meat because it's cooked already? Have a salad an= d let it go by? Leave the restaurant altogether? Or ask the chef to prepare the food I want? 2011/4/15 Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Hi, > > I think PPSP WG has the interest to study the PPSP tracker > protocol,and "draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03" is the only draft on the > table, so we should accept this as WG draft. It's true that efforts are > still needed to improve the quality of the draft, but more work still can= be > done after it's accepted as a WG draft, right? Do we have another choice= ? > > > BR > Lin > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *ext zhangyunfei > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:03 PM > *To:* Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation > > Hi all, > For the transport protocol, which is beyond the current scope of > PPSP, as suggested in the charter. However when we talk about the transpo= rt > protocol used in practice for P2P streaming applications, UDP has been se= en > the most commonly used protocol now, with the transition from TCP to UDP > both for data transport. And many applications(e.g., ppstream, pplive) ev= en > change from TCP to use UDP for signaling > transport(draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-00). > The rational behind this is that firstly, streaming applications > *don't*care much of packet loss and secondly, p2p streaming tracker and p= eer > query mechanism ensures there are *enough* active peers to exchange data,= so > a peer doesn't care *much* if one request is successfully transmitted or > not. This is proven in wired network. But when we consider a converged > environment, we may need more investigation on whether UDP is *enough* fo= r > transport. > For the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is > acceptable by most guys and there are some uncertainty on "binary", I wou= ld > suggest (individually) to add one section to analyze the strengh and > drawback of both encodings in the protocol draft. > Regarding the WG item adoption, I would like to see that there is > rough consensus on the questions recently raised and discussed in the > mailing list before the adoption. > > BR > Yunfei > > ------------------------------ > zhangyunfei > 2011-04-12 > ------------------------------ > *=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA* Martin Stiemerling > *=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA* 2011-04-08 22:25:40 > *=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA* ppsp@ietf.org > *=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA* > *=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA* Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation > > [speaking as individual - not as PPSP co-chair] > > Hi there, > > Here is my incomplete review of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 > and my opinion of whether it is ready to become WG item: > > - Why are there still 2 encodings in the draft? Isn't it time > to conclude on one encoding? > - Section 1: "the main part is the abstract description of the > operations...". This means that this is actually not a draft > about the tracker protocol? > - Section 1: "for both a bittorrent style offline and real-time > streaming protocol". Why is it so? We are in PPSP, so we sho= uld > work on something for streaming, isn't it? > - Why is there the notion of battery level in the status > messages? > - Section 9.1.3: What is the issue with fragmentation in here? > - What is the transport protocol where the tracker protocol > should run over? > > The proposed methods look reasonable, but the overall draft > organization still suffers from what Section 1 hints to that i= t > is solely an abstract description of the operations. > > > > I'm **not** in favor of getting draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 = to > be a WG item, for these reasons: > - document quality is not good enough in my opinion > - it is unclear what the transport protocol is. there is a hi= nt > to UDP, which is not a good choice to be used in this > particular case > - there is not yet a real protocol described in the draft, bu= t > only the skeletons of two protocols (binary and HTTP). > > I would suggest (still speaking as individual) to first make so= me > important decisions, e.g., encoding, fix the document, etc and > **afterwards** make a new call for WG adoption. > > Thanks, > > Martin > > > martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu > > NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division > NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria > Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation > > > > Hi all, > > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely adop= t > draft-gu- > > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the > mailing list > > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the > draft above will > > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =A1=B0tracker protoc= ol=A1=B1 > > deliverable.Thanks. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > zhangyunfei > > 2011-03-29 > > ________________________________ > > > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen Jennings > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80 > > > > > > A few notes I took from the meeting > > > > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking > minutes and > > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. > > > > We need to prioritize the use cases and decide > what we will > > work on first. > > > > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to > WGLC > > > > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as > a WG > > item > > > > Were about 60 people in room > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > --bcaec53aed8a6dcfa204a0f56df2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting logic!

I go a restaurant for veget= arian food. Instead, I'm offered with steak. What would my choices? Eat= the meat because it's cooked already? Have a salad and let it go by? L= eave the restaurant altogether? Or ask the chef to prepare the food I want?=



2011/4/15 Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) <= span dir=3D"ltr"><lin.xiao@nsn.com>
Hi,
 
I think PPSP WG has the interest to study the PPSP tracker=20 protocol,and "draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03" is the only= draft on the=20 table, so we should accept this as WG draft. It's true that e= fforts=20 are still needed to improve the quality of the draft, but more work st= ill=20 can be done after it's accepted as a WG draft, right?  Do we = have=20 another choice?
 
 
BR
Lin
 
 
From:=20 ppsp-bounces@iet= f.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20 zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:03 PM
To:= =20 Martin Stiemerling; ppsp= @ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption=20 confirmation

Hi all,
   =    For=20 the transport protocol, which is beyond the current scope of PPSP, as sugge= sted=20 in the charter. However when we talk about the transport protocol used in= =20 practice for P2P streaming applications, UDP has been seen the most commonl= y=20 used protocol now, with the transition from TCP to UDP both for data transp= ort.=20 And many applications(e.g., ppstream, pplive) even change from TCP to = use=20 UDP for signaling=20 transport(draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-00).
   =     The rational behind this is=20 that firstly, streaming applications *don't*care much of packet loss an= d=20 secondly, p2p streaming tracker and peer query mechanism ensures there= are=20 *enough* active peers to exchange data, so a peer doesn't care *much* i= f one=20 request is successfully transmitted or not. This is proven in wired network= .=20 But when we cons= ider a converged=20 environment, we may need more investigation on whether UDP is *en= ough*=20 for transport.
   =    For=20 the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is acceptabl= e by most guys=20 and there are some uncertainty on "binary", I would suggest (indi= vidually) to=20 add one section to analyze the strengh and drawback of both encodings = in=20 the protocol draft. 
   =    Regarding the WG item adoption,=20 I would like to see that there is rough consensus on the questions recently= =20 raised and discussed in the mailing list before the adoption.
 
BR
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei<= /font>
2011-04-12
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3= =BA Martin=20 Stiemerling
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC= =E4=A3=BA=20 2011-04-08 22:25:40
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3= =BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org=
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] WG item=20 adoption confirmation
 
[speaking  as  individual  -  not  as  P= PSP=20  co-chair]
 
Hi  there,
 
Here  is  my  incomplete  review  of=20  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03  and  my  opinion=20  of  whether  it  is  ready  to  become= =20  WG  item:
 
-  Why  are  there  still  2  encodings= =20  in  the  draft?  Isn't  it  time  t= o=20  conclude  on  one  encoding?
-  Section  1:  "the  main  part  i= s=20  the  abstract  description  of  the=20  operations...".  This  means  that  this &nb= sp;is=20  actually  not  a  draft  about  the  tr= acker=20  protocol?
-  Section  1:  "for  both  a  bitt= orrent=20  style  offline  and  real-time  streaming=20  protocol".  Why  is  it  so?  We  = are=20  in  PPSP,  so  we  should  work  on=20  something  for  streaming,  isn't  it?
-  Why  is  there  the  notion  of=20  battery  level  in  the  status  messages?
-  Section  9.1.3:  What  is  the  issue= =20  with  fragmentation  in  here?  
-  What  is  the  transport  protocol  w= here=20  the  tracker  protocol  should  run  over?
 
The  proposed  methods  look  reasonable,  bu= t=20  the  overall  draft  organization  still  su= ffers=20  from  what  Section  1  hints  to  that= =20  it  is  solely  an  abstract  description=20  of  the  operations.  
 
 
 
I'm  **not**  in  favor  of  getting=20  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03  to  be  a  WG= =20  item,  for  these  reasons:
-  document  quality  is  not  good  eno= ugh=20  in  my  opinion
-  it  is  unclear  what  the  transport= =20  protocol  is.  there  is  a  hint  to= =20  UDP,  which  is  not  a  good  choice= =20  to  be  used  in  this  particular=20  case
-  there  is  not  yet  a  real=20  protocol  described  in  the  draft,  but=20  only  the  skeletons  of  two  protocols=20  (binary  and  HTTP).  
 
I  would  suggest  (still  speaking  as=20  individual)  to  first  make  some  importan= t=20  decisions,  e.g.,  encoding,  fix  the  docu= ment,=20  etc  and  **afterwards**  make  a  new  = ;call=20  for  WG  adoption.
 
Thanks,
 
   Martin
 
 
 
NEC  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Resear= ch=20  Division
NEC  Europe  Limited  |  Registered  Office:= =20  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,  London &nbs= p;W3=20  6BL  |  Registered  in  England  2832014=20  
 
 
>  -----Original  Message-----
>  From:  zhangyunfei=20  [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
>  Sent:  Tuesday,  March  29,  2011=20  10:22  AM
>  To:  Cullen  Jennings;  ppsp@ietf.org
>  Cc:  Martin  Stiemerling
>  Subject:  WG  item  adoption=20  confirmation
>  
>  Hi  all,
>        As  discussed  in=20  yesterday's  meeting,  we  will  likely  = ;adopt=20  draft-gu-
>  ppsp-tracker-protocol  as  a  new  WG= =20  item.  Please  post  on  the  mailing=20  list
>  if  you  have  any  objections  on= =20  this  before  Apr.  10th.
>          If  there  are  = no=20  objections  by  Apr.  10th  2011,  the=20  draft  above  will
>  be  accepted  as  WG  document=20  fulfilling  the  “tracker  protocol”
>  deliverable.Thanks.
>  
>  BR
>  Yunfei
>  
>  
>  
>  ________________________________
>  
>  zhangyunfei
>  2011-03-29
>  ________________________________
>  
>  =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  Cullen  Jennings
>  =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA  2011-03-28  17:27= :23
>  =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  ppsp@ietf.org
>  =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
>  =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA  [ppsp]  Notes  from &nbs= p;PPSP  meeting=20  IETF80
>  
>  
>  A    few    notes    I  = =20  took    from    the    meeting
>  
>  First,    thank    you    to= =20    Christian    Schmidt    for    t= aking=20    minutes    and
>  Martin    Stiemerling    for  =20  jabber    scribing.
>  
>  We    need    to    prioritiz= e=20    the    use    cases    and  = ;=20  decide    what    we    will
>  work    on    first.
>  
>  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement    is  =20  getting    close    to    WGLC
>  
>  We    will    likely    adopt= =20    draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol    as    a= =20    WG
>  item
>  
>  Were    about    60    people= =20    in    room
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  ppsp    mailing    list
_______________________________________________
ppsp  mailing  list
<= /div>

_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp


--bcaec53aed8a6dcfa204a0f56df2-- From lin.xiao@nsn.com Sun Apr 17 01:55:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56EB2E06AB for ; Sun, 17 Apr 2011 01:55:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.423 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.423 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.241, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZCdTGZOWMhmU for ; Sun, 17 Apr 2011 01:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC6C2E067D for ; Sun, 17 Apr 2011 01:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p3H8smFj003678 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 17 Apr 2011 10:54:48 +0200 Received: from demuexc024.nsn-intra.net (demuexc024.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.11]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p3H8sj4H017915; Sun, 17 Apr 2011 10:54:47 +0200 Received: from CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.192.12]) by demuexc024.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sun, 17 Apr 2011 10:54:19 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CBFCDD.0807FF4C" Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 16:54:15 +0800 Message-ID: <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDB013DB06D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Thread-Index: Acv7dSRxJvlEvmwyQw+FXTOsfxBIvwBZlJIg References: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com> <201104121203222940840@chinamobile.com> <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDB013DAEBF@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> From: "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" To: "ext Ping Pan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Apr 2011 08:54:19.0146 (UTC) FILETIME=[09BBB6A0:01CBFCDD] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 08:55:02 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBFCDD.0807FF4C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think it's fanny at all! I remember the WG chairs showed the = same idea with me, and got the consensus at the meeting. =20 If it's a vegetarian restaurant, no one will cook steak for you.You can = say the food is not that good, but I believe it's still vegetable. = What's your solution? Cook yourself? or I think we should help the chef = to improve the quality of the food "in the restaurant". Or if you are = not interested in the restaurant, you can just leave. ________________________________ From: ext Ping Pan [mailto:ping@pingpan.org]=20 Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:57 PM To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Interesting logic!=20 I go a restaurant for vegetarian food. Instead, I'm offered with steak. = What would my choices? Eat the meat because it's cooked already? Have a = salad and let it go by? Leave the restaurant altogether? Or ask the chef = to prepare the food I want? 2011/4/15 Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Hi,=20 =20 I think PPSP WG has the interest to study the PPSP tracker protocol,and = "draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03" is the only draft on the table, so = we should accept this as WG draft. It's true that efforts are still = needed to improve the quality of the draft, but more work still can be = done after it's accepted as a WG draft, right? Do we have another = choice? =20 =20 BR=20 Lin =20 =20 ________________________________ From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:03 PM To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =09 =09 Hi all, For the transport protocol, which is beyond the current scope of = PPSP, as suggested in the charter. However when we talk about the = transport protocol used in practice for P2P streaming applications, UDP = has been seen the most commonly used protocol now, with the transition = from TCP to UDP both for data transport. And many applications(e.g., = ppstream, pplive) even change from TCP to use UDP for signaling = transport(draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-00).=20 The rational behind this is that firstly, streaming applications = *don't*care much of packet loss and secondly, p2p streaming tracker and = peer query mechanism ensures there are *enough* active peers to exchange = data, so a peer doesn't care *much* if one request is successfully = transmitted or not. This is proven in wired network. But when we = consider a converged environment, we may need more investigation on = whether UDP is *enough* for transport. For the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is = acceptable by most guys and there are some uncertainty on "binary", I = would suggest (individually) to add one section to analyze the strengh = and drawback of both encodings in the protocol draft.=20 Regarding the WG item adoption, I would like to see that there is = rough consensus on the questions recently raised and discussed in the = mailing list before the adoption. =20 BR Yunfei =20 =09 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-04-12 =09 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-04-08 22:25:40 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =20 =09 [speaking as individual - not as PPSP co-chair] =20 Hi there, =20 Here is my incomplete review of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 = and my opinion of whether it is ready to become WG item: =20 - Why are there still 2 encodings in the draft? Isn't it = time to conclude on one encoding? - Section 1: "the main part is the abstract description of = the operations...". This means that this is actually not a = draft about the tracker protocol? - Section 1: "for both a bittorrent style offline and = real-time streaming protocol". Why is it so? We are in PPSP, = so we should work on something for streaming, isn't it? - Why is there the notion of battery level in the status = messages? - Section 9.1.3: What is the issue with fragmentation in = here? =20 - What is the transport protocol where the tracker protocol = should run over? =20 The proposed methods look reasonable, but the overall draft = organization still suffers from what Section 1 hints to that = it is solely an abstract description of the operations. =20 =20 =20 =20 I'm **not** in favor of getting draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 = to be a WG item, for these reasons: - document quality is not good enough in my opinion - it is unclear what the transport protocol is. there is a = hint to UDP, which is not a good choice to be used in this = particular case - there is not yet a real protocol described in the draft, = but only the skeletons of two protocols (binary and HTTP). =20 =20 I would suggest (still speaking as individual) to first make = some important decisions, e.g., encoding, fix the document, etc = and **afterwards** make a new call for WG adoption. =20 Thanks, =20 Martin =20 =20 martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu =20 NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria = Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 =20 =20 =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation > =20 > Hi all, > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely = adopt draft-gu- > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the = mailing list > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the = draft above will > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =A1=B0tracker = protocol=A1=B1 > deliverable.Thanks. > =20 > BR > Yunfei > =20 > =20 > =20 > ________________________________ > =20 > zhangyunfei > 2011-03-29 > ________________________________ > =20 > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen Jennings > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80 > =20 > =20 > A few notes I took from the meeting > =20 > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for = taking minutes and > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. > =20 > We need to prioritize the use cases and = decide what we will > work on first. > =20 > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to = WGLC > =20 > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol = as a WG > item > =20 > Were about 60 people in room > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBFCDD.0807FF4C Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think it's fanny at all! I remember the WG = chairs showed=20 the same idea with me, and got the consensus at the = meeting.
 
If it's a vegetarian restaurant, no one will = cook steak for you.You=20 can say the food is not that good, but I believe it's still vegetable. = What's=20 your solution? Cook yourself? or I think we should help the chef to = improve=20 the quality of the food "in the restaurant". Or if you are not = interested in the=20 restaurant, you can just leave.

From: ext Ping Pan = [mailto:ping@pingpan.org]=20
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:57 PM
To: Xiao, Lin = (NSN -=20 CN/Beijing)
Cc: ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling;=20 ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption=20 confirmation

Interesting logic!

I go a restaurant for vegetarian food. Instead, I'm = offered with=20 steak. What would my choices? Eat the meat because it's cooked already? = Have a=20 salad and let it go by? Leave the restaurant altogether? Or ask the chef = to=20 prepare the food I want?



2011/4/15 Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) <lin.xiao@nsn.com>
Hi,=20
 
I think PPSP WG has=20 the interest to study the PPSP tracker=20 protocol,and "draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03" is the only = draft on the=20 table, so we should accept this as WG draft. It's true = that efforts=20 are still needed to improve the quality of the draft, but more = work still=20 can be done after it's accepted as a WG draft, right?  Do we = have=20 another choice?
 
 
BR=20
Lin
 
 
From: = ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20 zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:03 = PM
To:=20 Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG = item adoption=20 confirmation

Hi = all,
     =20 For the transport protocol, which is beyond the current scope of PPSP, = as=20 suggested in the charter. However when we talk about the transport = protocol=20 used in practice for P2P streaming applications, UDP has been seen the = most=20 commonly used protocol now, with the transition from TCP to UDP both = for data=20 transport. And many applications(e.g., ppstream, pplive) even = change from=20 TCP to use UDP for signaling=20 transport(draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-00). =
       The rational = behind this is=20 that firstly, streaming applications *don't*care much of packet loss = and=20 secondly, p2p streaming tracker and peer query mechanism ensures = there=20 are *enough* active peers to exchange data, so a peer doesn't care = *much* if=20 one request is successfully transmitted or not. This is proven in = wired=20 network. But when = we consider a=20 converged environment, we may need more investigation on = whether UDP=20 is *enough* for transport.
     =20 For the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is acceptable = by most=20 guys and there are some uncertainty on "binary", I would suggest=20 (individually) to add one section to analyze the strengh and = drawback of=20 both encodings in the protocol draft. 
      Regarding the WG = item=20 adoption, I would like to see that there is rough consensus on the = questions=20 recently raised and discussed in the mailing list before the=20 adoption.
 
BR
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
2011-04-12
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin=20 Stiemerling
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA=20 2011-04-08 22:25:40
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] WG item=20 adoption confirmation
 
[speaking  as  individual  -  not  as =  PPSP=20  co-chair]
 
Hi  there,
 
Here  is  my  incomplete  review  of=20  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03  and  my =  opinion=20  of  whether  it  is  ready  to =  become=20  WG  item:
 
-  Why  are  there  still  2 =  encodings=20  in  the  draft?  Isn't  it  time =  to=20  conclude  on  one  encoding?
-  Section  1:  "the  main  part =  is=20  the  abstract  description  of  the=20  operations...".  This  means  that  this =  is=20  actually  not  a  draft  about  the=20  tracker  protocol?
-  Section  1:  "for  both  a =  bittorrent=20  style  offline  and  real-time  streaming=20  protocol".  Why  is  it  so?  We =  are=20  in  PPSP,  so  we  should  work =  on=20  something  for  streaming,  isn't  it?
-  Why  is  there  the  notion  of=20  battery  level  in  the  status=20  messages?
-  Section  9.1.3:  What  is  the =  issue=20  with  fragmentation  in  here?  
-  What  is  the  transport  protocol=20  where  the  tracker  protocol  should =  run=20  over?
 
The  proposed  methods  look  reasonable, =  but=20  the  overall  draft  organization  still=20  suffers  from  what  Section  1  hints =  to=20  that  it  is  solely  an  abstract=20  description  of  the  operations.  
 
 
 
I'm  **not**  in  favor  of  getting=20  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03  to  be  a =  WG=20  item,  for  these  reasons:
-  document  quality  is  not  good =  enough=20  in  my  opinion
-  it  is  unclear  what  the =  transport=20  protocol  is.  there  is  a  hint =  to=20  UDP,  which  is  not  a  good =  choice=20  to  be  used  in  this  particular=20  case
-  there  is  not  yet  a  real=20  protocol  described  in  the  draft, =  but=20  only  the  skeletons  of  two =  protocols=20  (binary  and  HTTP).  
 
I  would  suggest  (still  speaking  as=20  individual)  to  first  make  some =  important=20  decisions,  e.g.,  encoding,  fix  the=20  document,  etc  and  **afterwards**  make =  a=20  new  call  for  WG  adoption.
 
Thanks,
 
   Martin
 
 
 
NEC  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network =  Research=20  Division
NEC  Europe  Limited  |  Registered =  Office:=20  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,  London =  W3  6BL  |  Registered  in  England=20  2832014  
 
 
>  -----Original  Message-----
>  From:  zhangyunfei  [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
>  Sent:  Tuesday,  March  29,  2011=20  10:22  AM
>  To:  Cullen  Jennings;  ppsp@ietf.org
>  Cc:  Martin  Stiemerling
>  Subject:  WG  item  adoption=20  confirmation
>  
>  Hi  all,
>        As  discussed  in=20  yesterday's  meeting,  we  will  likely =  adopt=20  draft-gu-
>  ppsp-tracker-protocol  as  a  new =  WG=20  item.  Please  post  on  the  mailing=20  list
>  if  you  have  any  objections =  on=20  this  before  Apr.  10th.
>          If  there  are =  no=20  objections  by  Apr.  10th  2011,  the=20  draft  above  will
>  be  accepted  as  WG  document=20  fulfilling  the  =A1=B0tracker =  protocol=A1=B1
>  deliverable.Thanks.
>  
>  BR
>  Yunfei
>  
>  
>  
>  ________________________________
>  
>  zhangyunfei
>  2011-03-29
>  ________________________________
>  
>  =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  Cullen =  Jennings
>  =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA  2011-03-28 =  17:27:23
>  =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  ppsp@ietf.org
>  =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
>  =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA  [ppsp]  Notes  from =  PPSP=20  meeting  IETF80
>  
>  
>  A    few    notes    I =  =20  took    from    the   =  meeting
>  
>  First,    thank    you   =  to=20    Christian    Schmidt    for  =20  taking    minutes    and
>  Martin    Stiemerling    for =  =20  jabber    scribing.
>  
>  We    need    to   =  prioritize=20    the    use    cases    and =  =20  decide    what    we    will
>  work    on    first.
>  
>  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement    is =  =20  getting    close    to   =  WGLC
>  
>  We    will    likely   =  adopt=20    draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol    as   =  a=20    WG
>  item
>  
>  Were    about    60   =  people=20    in    room
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  ppsp    mailing    list
_______________________________________________
ppsp  mailing  list

___________________________________________= ____
ppsp=20 mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp


------_=_NextPart_001_01CBFCDD.0807FF4C-- From guyingjie@huawei.com Sun Apr 17 18:28:57 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8717AE0761 for ; Sun, 17 Apr 2011 18:28:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.114 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.114 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U3SRlhJtwKhu for ; Sun, 17 Apr 2011 18:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 646A8E0756 for ; Sun, 17 Apr 2011 18:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LJT00EWOQS172@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:28:50 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml201-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LJT00HMBQS1EK@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:28:49 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.35) by szxeml201-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.39) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:28:46 +0800 Received: from g00107907 (10.138.41.104) by szxeml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:28:47 +0800 Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:24:54 +0800 From: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" In-reply-to: <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDB013DB06D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.104] To: "'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'" , 'ext Ping Pan' Message-id: <007501cbfd67$6ce7cae0$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_MdkYc0jsSGPMRvs21eSO1A)" Thread-index: Acv7dSRxJvlEvmwyQw+FXTOsfxBIvwBZlJIgACHWx5A= Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 01:28:57 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_MdkYc0jsSGPMRvs21eSO1A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi,=20 Thank all of you for your comments and supports. All comments are aiming to make the draft more suitable for a WG item, = though people may have different ideas on adoption.=20 I always agree the draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol still need improvement = no matter we adopt it now or later. As answer to chairs=E2=80=99 and other experts comments, =20 1) composing a section to =E2=80=98analyze the strengh and drawback = of both encodings in the protocol draft=E2=80=99, It=E2=80=99s okay to = add some analysis text in the draft, but since we can not make an = accurate calculation on bandwidth consuming before we make exact = messages definition, I don=E2=80=99t think the analysis text will = include bandwidth consuming calculation comparison between text-based = and binary based. Besides, since we already have a rough consensus on = Text-based encoding, I think we can answer the encoding question as = =E2=80=9Ctext-based encoding=E2=80=9D. Any objection to this? The draft = has described a HTTP-based encoding.=20 2) As for Transport protocol, as Yunfei has said as a chair, this = has been clarified in Charter. Personally, I think TCP is okay for = Tracker protocol, but UDP is better for Peer protocol. This is idea is = also from some other people I talked with. But currently, the WG has not = make any decision that Transport protocol choice is in scope of Tracker = and Peer Protocol, so Tracker protocol authors will follow WG Charter = for now, unless Transport protocol choice is pushed to PPSP protocol = design. 3) As for NAT Traversal, there is already a good draft to analyzing = and providing solution to it. Tracker protocol will receive the = requirements from the NAT draft and make sure Tracker protocol is able = to support common requirements for various NAT Traversal solution.=20 4) There is some confusing description, most in introduction = section, the authors promise to revise it next version. 5) The Binary encoding, which is in appendix now, will be removed in = next version. Are there other major comments I missed? =20 If you have any objection to the above answer, please voice out, so that = the WG can have a discussion on that. If there is no objection, will the Chairs be glad with rough consensus = on the above comments? =20 Again, thank all of you and all the comments are highly appreciated. BR Yingjie =20 =20 _____ =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 4:54 PM To: ext Ping Pan Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =20 I don't think it's fanny at all! I remember the WG chairs showed the = same idea with me, and got the consensus at the meeting. =20 If it's a vegetarian restaurant, no one will cook steak for you.You can = say the food is not that good, but I believe it's still vegetable. = What's your solution? Cook yourself? or I think we should help the chef = to improve the quality of the food "in the restaurant". Or if you are = not interested in the restaurant, you can just leave. =20 _____ =20 From: ext Ping Pan [mailto:ping@pingpan.org]=20 Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:57 PM To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Interesting logic!=20 =20 I go a restaurant for vegetarian food. Instead, I'm offered with steak. = What would my choices? Eat the meat because it's cooked already? Have a = salad and let it go by? Leave the restaurant altogether? Or ask the chef = to prepare the food I want? =20 =20 2011/4/15 Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Hi,=20 =20 I think PPSP WG has the interest to study the PPSP tracker protocol,and = "draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03" is the only draft on the table, so = we should accept this as WG draft. It's true that efforts are still = needed to improve the quality of the draft, but more work still can be = done after it's accepted as a WG draft, right? Do we have another = choice? =20 =20 BR=20 Lin =20 =20 _____ =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:03 PM To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Hi all, For the transport protocol, which is beyond the current scope of = PPSP, as suggested in the charter. However when we talk about the = transport protocol used in practice for P2P streaming applications, UDP = has been seen the most commonly used protocol now, with the transition = from TCP to UDP both for data transport. And many applications(e.g., = ppstream, pplive) even change from TCP to use UDP for signaling = transport(draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-00).=20 The rational behind this is that firstly, streaming applications = *don't*care much of packet loss and secondly, p2p streaming tracker and = peer query mechanism ensures there are *enough* active peers to exchange = data, so a peer doesn't care *much* if one request is successfully = transmitted or not. This is proven in wired network. But when we = consider a converged environment, we may need more investigation on = whether UDP is *enough* for transport. For the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is = acceptable by most guys and there are some uncertainty on "binary", I = would suggest (individually) to add one section to analyze the strengh = and drawback of both encodings in the protocol draft.=20 Regarding the WG item adoption, I would like to see that there is = rough consensus on the questions recently raised and discussed in the = mailing list before the adoption. =20 BR Yunfei =20 _____ =20 zhangyunfei 2011-04-12 _____ =20 =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Martin Stiemerling =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2011-04-08 22:25:40 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A=20 =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =20 [speaking as individual - not as PPSP co-chair] =20 Hi there, =20 Here is my incomplete review of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 = and my opinion of whether it is ready to become WG item: =20 - Why are there still 2 encodings in the draft? Isn't it = time to conclude on one encoding? - Section 1: "the main part is the abstract description of = the operations...". This means that this is actually not a = draft about the tracker protocol? - Section 1: "for both a bittorrent style offline and = real-time streaming protocol". Why is it so? We are in PPSP, = so we should work on something for streaming, isn't it? - Why is there the notion of battery level in the status = messages? - Section 9.1.3: What is the issue with fragmentation in here? = =20 - What is the transport protocol where the tracker protocol = should run over? =20 The proposed methods look reasonable, but the overall draft = organization still suffers from what Section 1 hints to that = it is solely an abstract description of the operations. =20 =20 =20 =20 I'm **not** in favor of getting draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 = to be a WG item, for these reasons: - document quality is not good enough in my opinion - it is unclear what the transport protocol is. there is a = hint to UDP, which is not a good choice to be used in this = particular case - there is not yet a real protocol described in the draft, = but only the skeletons of two protocols (binary and HTTP). =20 =20 I would suggest (still speaking as individual) to first make = some important decisions, e.g., encoding, fix the document, etc = and **afterwards** make a new call for WG adoption. =20 Thanks, =20 Martin =20 =20 martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu =20 NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria = Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 =20 =20 =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation > =20 > Hi all, > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely = adopt draft-gu- > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the = mailing list > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the = draft above will > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =E2=80=9Ctracker = protocol=E2=80=9D > deliverable.Thanks. > =20 > BR > Yunfei > =20 > =20 > =20 > ________________________________ > =20 > zhangyunfei > 2011-03-29 > ________________________________ > =20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Cullen Jennings > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting = IETF80 > =20 > =20 > A few notes I took from the meeting > =20 > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking = minutes and > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. > =20 > We need to prioritize the use cases and = decide what we will > work on first. > =20 > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to = WGLC > =20 > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as = a WG > item > =20 > Were about 60 people in room > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp =20 --Boundary_(ID_MdkYc0jsSGPMRvs21eSO1A) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, =

Thank all of you = for your comments and supports.

All comments are = aiming to make the draft more suitable for a WG item, though people may have = different ideas on adoption.

I always agree = the draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol still need improvement no matter we adopt = it now or later.

As answer to = chairs=E2=80=99 and other experts comments, =C2=A0

1)     composing a section = to =E2=80=98analyze the strengh and drawback of = both encodings in the protocol draft=E2=80=99, = It=E2=80=99s okay to add some analysis text in the draft, but since we can not make = an accurate calculation on bandwidth consuming before we make exact = messages definition, I don=E2=80=99t think the analysis text will include = bandwidth consuming calculation comparison between text-based and binary based. Besides, = since we already have a rough consensus on Text-based encoding, I think we can answer the encoding question as =E2=80=9Ctext-based encoding=E2=80=9D. =C2=A0Any = objection to this? The draft has described a HTTP-based encoding.

2)     As for Transport = protocol, as Yunfei has said as a chair, this has been clarified in Charter. = =C2=A0Personally, I think TCP is okay for Tracker protocol, but UDP is better for Peer = protocol. This is idea is also from some other people I talked with. But currently, the = WG has not make any decision that Transport protocol choice is in scope of = Tracker and Peer Protocol, so Tracker protocol authors will follow WG Charter for = now, unless Transport protocol choice is pushed to PPSP protocol = design.

3)     As for NAT = Traversal, there is already a good draft to analyzing and providing solution to it. Tracker protocol will receive the requirements from the NAT draft and make sure = Tracker protocol is able to support common requirements for various NAT = Traversal solution.

4)     There is some = confusing description, most in introduction section, the authors promise to revise = it next version.

5)     The Binary encoding, = which is in appendix now, will be removed in next = version.

Are there other = major comments I missed?

 =

If you have any = objection to the above answer, please voice out, so that the WG can have a = discussion on that.

If there is no = objection, will the Chairs be glad with rough consensus on the above = comments?

 =

Again, thank all = of you and all the comments are highly = appreciated.

BR

Yingjie

 =

 =

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)
Sent: Sunday, April 17, = 2011 4:54 PM
To: ext Ping Pan
Cc: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG = item adoption confirmation

 

I don't think it's fanny at all! I remember the WG chairs showed the same idea with me, and got the consensus at the = meeting.

 

If it's a vegetarian = restaurant, no one will cook steak for you.You can say the food is not that good, but I believe it's still vegetable. What's your solution? Cook yourself? = or I think we should help the chef to improve the quality of the food = "in the restaurant". Or if you are not interested in the restaurant, you = can just leave.

 

From: ext Ping Pan [mailto:ping@pingpan.org]
Sent: Friday, April 15, = 2011 9:57 PM
To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - = CN/Beijing)
Cc: ext zhangyunfei; = Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG = item adoption confirmation

Interesting logic!

 

I go a restaurant for vegetarian food. Instead, I'm offered with = steak. What would my choices? Eat the meat because it's cooked already? Have a = salad and let it go by? Leave the restaurant altogether? Or ask the chef to = prepare the food I want?

 

 

2011/4/15 Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) <lin.xiao@nsn.com>

Hi,

 

I think PPSP WG has the interest = to study the PPSP tracker protocol,and "draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03" is the = only draft on the table, so we should accept this as WG draft. It's true that efforts are still needed to improve the quality of the draft, but more work still can be done after it's accepted as a WG = draft, right?  Do we have another choice?

 

 

BR

Lin

 

 

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext = zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, = 2011 12:03 PM
To: Martin Stiemerling; = ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG = item adoption confirmation

Hi = all,

  &nb= sp;   For the transport protocol, which is beyond the current scope of PPSP, = as suggested in the charter. However when we talk about the transport = protocol used in practice for P2P streaming applications, UDP has been seen the = most commonly used protocol now, with the transition from TCP to UDP both for = data transport. And many applications(e.g., ppstream, pplive) even = change from TCP to use UDP for signaling transport(draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-00). =

  &nb= sp;    The rational behind this is that firstly, streaming applications = *don't*care much of packet loss and secondly, p2p streaming tracker and peer = query mechanism ensures there are *enough* active peers to exchange data, so a = peer doesn't care *much* if one request is successfully transmitted or not. = This is proven in wired network. But when we consider a converged environment, = we may need more investigation on whether UDP is *enough* for = transport.

  &nb= sp;   For the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is acceptable by most guys and there are some uncertainty on = "binary", I would suggest (individually) to add one section to analyze the = strengh and drawback of both encodings in the protocol = draft. 

  &nb= sp;   Regarding the WG item adoption, I would like to see that there is rough consensus = on the questions recently raised and discussed in the mailing list before the adoption.

 

BR

Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-04-12

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Martin = Stiemerling

=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC= =9A = 2011-04-08 22:25:40

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org

=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A=

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A= Re: [ppsp] = WG item adoption confirmation

 

[speaking  as  individual  -  not  as  PPSP =  co-chair]

 

Hi  there,

 

Here  is  my  incomplete  review  of  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03  and  my  opinion  of  whether  it  is =  ready  to  become  WG  item:

 

-  Why  are  there =  still  2  encodings  in  the  draft?  Isn't =  it  time  to  conclude  on  one =  encoding?

-  Section  1:  "the =  main  part  is  the  abstract  description  of  the  operations...".  This  means  that  this  is  actually  not  a  draft =  about  the  tracker  protocol?

-  Section  1:  "for =  both  a  bittorrent  style  offline  and =  real-time  streaming  protocol".  Why  is  it =  so?  We  are  in  PPSP,  so  we  should  work  on  something  for  streaming, =  isn't  it?

-  Why  is  there  the  notion  of  battery  level  in  the =  status  messages?

-  Section  9.1.3:  What  is  the  issue  with  fragmentation  in  here?  

-  What  is  the =  transport  protocol  where  the  tracker  protocol =  should  run  over?

 

The  proposed  methods  look  reasonable,  but  the  overall  draft  organization  still  suffers  from  what  Section  1  hints  to  that  it  is =  solely  an  abstract  description  of  the =  operations.  

 

 

 

I'm  **not**  in  favor =  of  getting  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03  to  be =  a  WG  item,  for  these =  reasons:

-  document  quality  is =  not  good  enough  in  my =  opinion

-  it  is  unclear  what  the  transport  protocol  is.  there  is =  a  hint  to  UDP,  which  is  not  a  good  choice  to  be  used  in  this  particular  case

-  there  is  not  yet =  a  real  protocol  described  in  the =  draft,  but  only  the  skeletons  of  two  protocols  (binary  and  HTTP). =  

 

I  would  suggest  (still  speaking  as  individual)  to  first =  make  some  important  decisions,  e.g.,  encoding,  fix  the  document,  etc  and =  **afterwards**  make  a  new  call  for  WG =  adoption.

 

Thanks,

 

  =  Martin

 

 

 

NEC  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research =  Division

NEC  Europe  Limited  |  Registered  Office:  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,  London  W3 =  6BL  |  Registered  in  England  2832014 =  

 

 

>  -----Original =  Message-----

>  From:  zhangyunfei =  [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]

>  Sent:  Tuesday,  March  29,  2011  10:22  AM

>  To:  Cullen  Jennings; =  ppsp@ietf.org

>  Cc:  Martin =  Stiemerling

>  Subject:  WG  item  adoption  confirmation

>  

>  Hi =  all,

>        As =  discussed  in  yesterday's  meeting,  we  will =  likely  adopt  draft-gu-

>  ppsp-tracker-protocol  as =  a  new  WG  item.  Please  post  on =  the  mailing  list

>  if  you  have  any  objections  on  this  before  Apr. =  10th.

>          If  there  are  no  objections  by  Apr. =  10th  2011,  the  draft  above =  will

>  be  accepted  as =  WG  document  fulfilling  the  =E2=80=9Ctracker =  protocol=E2=80=9D

> =  deliverable.Thanks.

>  

>  BR

> =  Yunfei

>  

>  

>  

> =  ________________________________

>  

> =  zhangyunfei

>  2011-03-29

> =  ________________________________

>  

>  =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A =  Cullen  Jennings

>  =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A<= /span> =  2011-03-28  17:27:23

>  =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A  ppsp@ietf.org

>  =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A<= /p>

>  =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A =  [ppsp]  Notes  from  PPSP  meeting =  IETF80

>  

>  

>  A    few   =  notes    I    took    from    the =    meeting

>  

>  First,    thank    you    to    Christian    Schmidt =    for    taking    minutes   =  and

>  Martin    Stiemerling =    for    jabber   =  scribing.

>  

>  We    need   =  to    prioritize    the    use   =  cases    and    decide    what    we =    will

>  work    on   =  first.

>  

>  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement =    is    getting    close    to    WGLC

>  

>  We    will   =  likely    adopt    draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol   =  as    a    WG

>  item

>  

>  Were    about   =  60    people    in   =  room

>  

>  

>  

>  

>  _______________________________________________

>  ppsp    mailing    list

_____________________________________________= __

ppsp  mailing =  list


_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

 

--Boundary_(ID_MdkYc0jsSGPMRvs21eSO1A)-- From Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Sun Apr 17 21:25:11 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7AB4E069F for ; Sun, 17 Apr 2011 21:25:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.874 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.874 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.124, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4getwLUp2Uvh for ; Sun, 17 Apr 2011 21:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idcout.InterDigital.com (idcexmail.interdigital.com [12.32.197.135]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E428BE0661 for ; Sun, 17 Apr 2011 21:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.12]) by idcout.InterDigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 18 Apr 2011 00:25:07 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CBFD80.99321C5A" Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 00:24:55 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007501cbfd67$6ce7cae0$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Thread-Index: Acv7dSRxJvlEvmwyQw+FXTOsfxBIvwBZlJIgACHWx5AAB1jGMA== References: <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDB013DB06D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> <007501cbfd67$6ce7cae0$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Apr 2011 04:25:07.0886 (UTC) FILETIME=[993EC4E0:01CBFD80] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 04:25:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBFD80.99321C5A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgWWluZ2ppZSwNCg0KIA0KDQpJIGFncmVlIHdpdGggeW91ciBsaXN0IG9mIG1ham9yIGltcHJv dmVtZW50cyByZXF1aXJlZCBmb3IgdGhlIHRyYWNrZXIgSS1ELiAgSSB3b3VsZCBhbHNvIGFkZCB0 byB0aGlzIGxpc3QgdGhlIGNvbW1lbnQgdGhhdCBJIGhhZCBnaXZlbiBvbiBzZWN1cml0eSBwcmV2 aW91c2x5LiAgU3BlY2lmaWNhbGx5Og0KDQogDQoNCiAgIEkgdGhpbmsgd2UgbmVlZCB0byBoYXZl IGEgc2VwYXJhdGUgIlNlY3VyaXR5IENvbnNpZGVyYXRpb25zIiBzZWN0aW9uIGluIHRoZSBkb2N1 bWVudA0KDQogICBhcyBpcyB1c3VhbGx5IGZvdW5kIGluIG1vc3QgZHJhZnRzLiAgQXQgdGhlIHBy ZXNlbnQgdGltZSwgdGhlcmUgYXJlIHNlY3VyaXR5IHJlbGF0ZWQNCg0KICAgcG9pbnRzIHNwcmVh ZCB0aHJvdWdob3V0IHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCBhbmQgSSBmb3VuZCBpdCBoYXJkIHRvIGRlZHVjZSB0 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D17E06C7 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 01:13:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.114 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.114 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xz4-g+jN0n4P for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 01:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39866E067F for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 01:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LJU00DTJ9FM8Z@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 16:11:47 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LJU00ATW9FMXX@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 16:11:46 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.35) by szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 16:11:44 +0800 Received: from g00107907 (10.138.41.104) by szxeml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 16:11:45 +0800 Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 16:08:47 +0800 From: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.104] To: "'Rahman, Akbar'" Message-id: <00af01cbfd9f$d84b1de0$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_8abfT/60KWb2+4xFGk9oPQ)" Thread-index: Acv7dSRxJvlEvmwyQw+FXTOsfxBIvwBZlJIgACHWx5AAB1jGMAAH4P9Q Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:13:39 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_8abfT/60KWb2+4xFGk9oPQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, I remembered this comment, but forget to list it. We definitely = need a security consideration. Thanks again. =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Rahman, Akbar [mailto:Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com]=20 Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 12:25 PM To: Yingjie Gu(yingjie) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext Ping Pan Subject: RE: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =20 Hi Yingjie, =20 I agree with your list of major improvements required for the tracker = I-D. I would also add to this list the comment that I had given on = security previously. Specifically: =20 I think we need to have a separate "Security Considerations" section = in the document as is usually found in most drafts. At the present time, there are = security related points spread throughout the document and I found it hard to deduce = the overall security approach. =20 =20 Sincerely, =20 Akbar =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Yingjie Gu(yingjie) Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 9:25 PM To: 'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'; 'ext Ping Pan' Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =20 Hi,=20 Thank all of you for your comments and supports. All comments are aiming to make the draft more suitable for a WG item, = though people may have different ideas on adoption.=20 I always agree the draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol still need improvement = no matter we adopt it now or later. As answer to chairs=E2=80=99 and other experts comments, =20 1) composing a section to =E2=80=98analyze the strengh and drawback of = both encodings in the protocol draft=E2=80=99, It=E2=80=99s okay to add = some analysis text in the draft, but since we can not make an accurate = calculation on bandwidth consuming before we make exact messages = definition, I don=E2=80=99t think the analysis text will include = bandwidth consuming calculation comparison between text-based and binary = based. Besides, since we already have a rough consensus on Text-based = encoding, I think we can answer the encoding question as = =E2=80=9Ctext-based encoding=E2=80=9D. Any objection to this? The draft = has described a HTTP-based encoding.=20 2) As for Transport protocol, as Yunfei has said as a chair, this has = been clarified in Charter. Personally, I think TCP is okay for Tracker = protocol, but UDP is better for Peer protocol. This is idea is also from = some other people I talked with. But currently, the WG has not make any = decision that Transport protocol choice is in scope of Tracker and Peer = Protocol, so Tracker protocol authors will follow WG Charter for now, = unless Transport protocol choice is pushed to PPSP protocol design. 3) As for NAT Traversal, there is already a good draft to analyzing and = providing solution to it. Tracker protocol will receive the requirements = from the NAT draft and make sure Tracker protocol is able to support = common requirements for various NAT Traversal solution.=20 4) There is some confusing description, most in introduction section, = the authors promise to revise it next version. 5) The Binary encoding, which is in appendix now, will be removed in = next version. Are there other major comments I missed? =20 If you have any objection to the above answer, please voice out, so that = the WG can have a discussion on that. If there is no objection, will the Chairs be glad with rough consensus = on the above comments? =20 Again, thank all of you and all the comments are highly appreciated. BR Yingjie =20 =20 _____ =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 4:54 PM To: ext Ping Pan Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =20 I don't think it's fanny at all! I remember the WG chairs showed the = same idea with me, and got the consensus at the meeting. =20 If it's a vegetarian restaurant, no one will cook steak for you.You can = say the food is not that good, but I believe it's still vegetable. = What's your solution? Cook yourself? or I think we should help the chef = to improve the quality of the food "in the restaurant". Or if you are = not interested in the restaurant, you can just leave. =20 _____ =20 From: ext Ping Pan [mailto:ping@pingpan.org]=20 Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:57 PM To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Interesting logic!=20 =20 I go a restaurant for vegetarian food. Instead, I'm offered with steak. = What would my choices? Eat the meat because it's cooked already? Have a = salad and let it go by? Leave the restaurant altogether? Or ask the chef = to prepare the food I want? =20 =20 2011/4/15 Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Hi,=20 =20 I think PPSP WG has the interest to study the PPSP tracker protocol,and = "draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03" is the only draft on the table, so = we should accept this as WG draft. It's true that efforts are still = needed to improve the quality of the draft, but more work still can be = done after it's accepted as a WG draft, right? Do we have another = choice? =20 =20 BR=20 Lin =20 =20 _____ =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:03 PM To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Hi all, For the transport protocol, which is beyond the current scope of = PPSP, as suggested in the charter. However when we talk about the = transport protocol used in practice for P2P streaming applications, UDP = has been seen the most commonly used protocol now, with the transition = from TCP to UDP both for data transport. And many applications(e.g., = ppstream, pplive) even change from TCP to use UDP for signaling = transport(draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-00).=20 The rational behind this is that firstly, streaming applications = *don't*care much of packet loss and secondly, p2p streaming tracker and = peer query mechanism ensures there are *enough* active peers to exchange = data, so a peer doesn't care *much* if one request is successfully = transmitted or not. This is proven in wired network. But when we = consider a converged environment, we may need more investigation on = whether UDP is *enough* for transport. For the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is = acceptable by most guys and there are some uncertainty on "binary", I = would suggest (individually) to add one section to analyze the strengh = and drawback of both encodings in the protocol draft.=20 Regarding the WG item adoption, I would like to see that there is = rough consensus on the questions recently raised and discussed in the = mailing list before the adoption. =20 BR Yunfei =20 _____ =20 zhangyunfei 2011-04-12 _____ =20 =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Martin Stiemerling =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2011-04-08 22:25:40 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A=20 =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =20 [speaking as individual - not as PPSP co-chair] =20 Hi there, =20 Here is my incomplete review of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 = and my opinion of whether it is ready to become WG item: =20 - Why are there still 2 encodings in the draft? Isn't it = time to conclude on one encoding? - Section 1: "the main part is the abstract description of = the operations...". This means that this is actually not a = draft about the tracker protocol? - Section 1: "for both a bittorrent style offline and = real-time streaming protocol". Why is it so? We are in PPSP, = so we should work on something for streaming, isn't it? - Why is there the notion of battery level in the status = messages? - Section 9.1.3: What is the issue with fragmentation in here? = =20 - What is the transport protocol where the tracker protocol = should run over? =20 The proposed methods look reasonable, but the overall draft = organization still suffers from what Section 1 hints to that = it is solely an abstract description of the operations. =20 =20 =20 =20 I'm **not** in favor of getting draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 = to be a WG item, for these reasons: - document quality is not good enough in my opinion - it is unclear what the transport protocol is. there is a = hint to UDP, which is not a good choice to be used in this = particular case - there is not yet a real protocol described in the draft, = but only the skeletons of two protocols (binary and HTTP). =20 =20 I would suggest (still speaking as individual) to first make = some important decisions, e.g., encoding, fix the document, etc = and **afterwards** make a new call for WG adoption. =20 Thanks, =20 Martin =20 =20 martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu =20 NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria = Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 =20 =20 =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation > =20 > Hi all, > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely = adopt draft-gu- > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the = mailing list > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the = draft above will > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =E2=80=9Ctracker = protocol=E2=80=9D > deliverable.Thanks. > =20 > BR > Yunfei > =20 > =20 > =20 > ________________________________ > =20 > zhangyunfei > 2011-03-29 > ________________________________ > =20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Cullen Jennings > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting = IETF80 > =20 > =20 > A few notes I took from the meeting > =20 > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking = minutes and > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. > =20 > We need to prioritize the use cases and = decide what we will > work on first. > =20 > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to = WGLC > =20 > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as = a WG > item > =20 > Were about 60 people in room > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp =20 --Boundary_(ID_8abfT/60KWb2+4xFGk9oPQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry, I = remembered this comment, but forget to list it. We definitely need a security = consideration.

Thanks = again.

 =

 =

From: Rahman, Akbar [mailto:Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com]
Sent: Monday, April 18, = 2011 12:25 PM
To: Yingjie = Gu(yingjie)
Cc: ppsp@ietf.org; Xiao, = Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext Ping Pan
Subject: RE: [ppsp] WG = item adoption confirmation

 

Hi Yingjie,

 <= /o:p>

I agree = with your list of major improvements required for the tracker I-D.  I would = also add to this list the comment that I had given on security previously.  Specifically:

 <= /o:p>

   I = think we need to have a separate "Security Considerations" section in the = document

   as is = usually found in most drafts.  At the present time, there are security = related

   points = spread throughout the document and I found it hard to deduce the = overall

   = security approach.

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

Sincerely,

 <= /o:p>

Akbar

 <= /o:p>

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Yingjie Gu(yingjie)
Sent: Sunday, April 17, = 2011 9:25 PM
To: 'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'; 'ext Ping Pan'
Cc: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG = item adoption confirmation

 

Hi, =

Thank all of you = for your comments and supports.

All comments are = aiming to make the draft more suitable for a WG item, though people may have = different ideas on adoption.

I always agree = the draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol still need improvement no matter we adopt = it now or later.

As answer to = chairs=E2=80=99 and other experts comments,  

1)  composing a section to =E2=80=98analyze the strengh and drawback of both encodings in the protocol = draft=E2=80=99, It=E2=80=99s okay to add some analysis text in the = draft, but since we can not make an accurate calculation on bandwidth consuming before we = make exact messages definition, I don=E2=80=99t think the analysis text will = include bandwidth consuming calculation comparison between text-based and binary = based. Besides, since we already have a rough consensus on Text-based encoding, = I think we can answer the encoding question as =E2=80=9Ctext-based = encoding=E2=80=9D.  Any objection to this? The draft has described a HTTP-based encoding. =

2)  As for Transport protocol, as Yunfei has said as a chair, this has been = clarified in Charter.  Personally, I think TCP is okay for Tracker protocol, = but UDP is better for Peer protocol. This is idea is also from some other people = I talked with. But currently, the WG has not make any decision that = Transport protocol choice is in scope of Tracker and Peer Protocol, so Tracker = protocol authors will follow WG Charter for now, unless Transport protocol choice = is pushed to PPSP protocol design.

3)  As for NAT Traversal, there is already a good draft to analyzing and = providing solution to it. Tracker protocol will receive the requirements from the = NAT draft and make sure Tracker protocol is able to support common = requirements for various NAT Traversal solution.

4)  There is some confusing description, most in introduction section, the authors promise to revise it next version.

5)  The Binary encoding, which is in appendix now, will be removed in next = version.

Are there other = major comments I missed?

 =

If you have any = objection to the above answer, please voice out, so that the WG can have a = discussion on that.

If there is no = objection, will the Chairs be glad with rough consensus on the above = comments?

 =

Again, thank all = of you and all the comments are highly = appreciated.

BR

Yingjie

 =

 =

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)
Sent: Sunday, April 17, = 2011 4:54 PM
To: ext Ping Pan
Cc: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG = item adoption confirmation

 

I don't think it's fanny at all! I remember the WG chairs showed the same idea with me, and got the consensus at the = meeting.

 

If it's a vegetarian = restaurant, no one will cook steak for you.You can say the food is not that good, but I believe it's still vegetable. What's your solution? Cook yourself? = or I think we should help the chef to improve the quality of the food = "in the restaurant". Or if you are not interested in the restaurant, you = can just leave.

 

From: ext Ping Pan [mailto:ping@pingpan.org]
Sent: Friday, April 15, = 2011 9:57 PM
To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - = CN/Beijing)
Cc: ext zhangyunfei; = Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG = item adoption confirmation

Interesting logic!

 

I go a restaurant for vegetarian food. Instead, I'm offered with = steak. What would my choices? Eat the meat because it's cooked already? Have a = salad and let it go by? Leave the restaurant altogether? Or ask the chef to = prepare the food I want?

 

 

2011/4/15 Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) <lin.xiao@nsn.com>

Hi,

 

I think PPSP WG has the interest = to study the PPSP tracker protocol,and "draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03" is the = only draft on the table, so we should accept this as WG draft. It's true that efforts are still needed to improve the quality of the draft, but more work still can be done after it's accepted as a WG = draft, right?  Do we have another choice?

 

 

BR

Lin

 

 

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext = zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, = 2011 12:03 PM
To: Martin Stiemerling; = ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG = item adoption confirmation

Hi = all,

  &nb= sp;   For the transport protocol, which is beyond the current scope of PPSP, = as suggested in the charter. However when we talk about the transport = protocol used in practice for P2P streaming applications, UDP has been seen the = most commonly used protocol now, with the transition from TCP to UDP both for = data transport. And many applications(e.g., ppstream, pplive) even = change from TCP to use UDP for signaling = transport(draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-00).

  &nb= sp;    The rational behind this is that firstly, streaming applications = *don't*care much of packet loss and secondly, p2p streaming tracker and peer = query mechanism ensures there are *enough* active peers to exchange data, so a = peer doesn't care *much* if one request is successfully transmitted or not. = This is proven in wired network. But when we consider a converged environment, = we may need more investigation on whether UDP is *enough* for = transport.

  &nb= sp;   For the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is acceptable by most guys and there are some uncertainty on = "binary", I would suggest (individually) to add one section to analyze the = strengh and drawback of both encodings in the protocol = draft. 

  &nb= sp;   Regarding the WG item adoption, I would like to see that there is rough consensus = on the questions recently raised and discussed in the mailing list before the adoption.

 

BR

Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-04-12

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Martin = Stiemerling

=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC= =9A = 2011-04-08 22:25:40

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A<= font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana> ppsp@ietf.org

=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC= =9A Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation

 

[speaking  as  individual  -  not  as  PPSP =  co-chair]

 

Hi  there,

 

Here  is  my  incomplete  review  of  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03  and  my  opinion  of  whether  it  is =  ready  to  become  WG  item:

 

-  Why  are  there =  still  2  encodings  in  the  draft?  Isn't =  it  time  to  conclude  on  one =  encoding?

-  Section  1:  "the =  main  part  is  the  abstract  description  of  the  operations...".  This  means  that  this  is  actually  not  a  draft =  about  the  tracker  protocol?

-  Section  1:  "for =  both  a  bittorrent  style  offline  and =  real-time  streaming  protocol".  Why  is  it =  so?  We  are  in  PPSP,  so  we  should  work  on  something  for  streaming, =  isn't  it?

-  Why  is  there  the  notion  of  battery  level  in  the =  status  messages?

-  Section  9.1.3:  What  is  the  issue  with  fragmentation  in  here?  

-  What  is  the =  transport  protocol  where  the  tracker  protocol =  should  run  over?

 

The  proposed  methods  look  reasonable,  but  the  overall  draft  organization  still  suffers  from  what  Section  1  hints  to  that  it  is =  solely  an  abstract  description  of  the =  operations.  

 

 

 

I'm  **not**  in  favor =  of  getting  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03  to  be =  a  WG  item,  for  these =  reasons:

-  document  quality  is =  not  good  enough  in  my =  opinion

-  it  is  unclear  what  the  transport  protocol  is.  there  is =  a  hint  to  UDP,  which  is  not  a  good  choice  to  be  used  in  this  particular  case

-  there  is  not  yet =  a  real  protocol  described  in  the =  draft,  but  only  the  skeletons  of  two  protocols  (binary  and  HTTP). =  

 

I  would  suggest  (still  speaking  as  individual)  to  first =  make  some  important  decisions,  e.g.,  encoding,  fix  the  document,  etc  and =  **afterwards**  make  a  new  call  for  WG =  adoption.

 

Thanks,

 

  =  Martin

 

 

 

NEC  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research =  Division

NEC  Europe  Limited  |  Registered  Office:  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,  London  W3 =  6BL  |  Registered  in  England  2832014 =  

 

 

>  -----Original =  Message-----

>  From:  zhangyunfei =  [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]

>  Sent:  Tuesday,  March  29,  2011  10:22  AM

>  To:  Cullen  Jennings; =  ppsp@ietf.org

>  Cc:  Martin =  Stiemerling

>  Subject:  WG  item  adoption  confirmation

>  

>  Hi =  all,

>        As =  discussed  in  yesterday's  meeting,  we  will =  likely  adopt  draft-gu-

>  ppsp-tracker-protocol  as =  a  new  WG  item.  Please  post  on =  the  mailing  list

>  if  you  have  any  objections  on  this  before  Apr. =  10th.

>          If  there  are  no  objections  by  Apr. =  10th  2011,  the  draft  above =  will

>  be  accepted  as =  WG  document  fulfilling  the  =E2=80=9Ctracker =  protocol=E2=80=9D

> =  deliverable.Thanks.

>  

>  BR

> =  Yunfei

>  

>  

>  

> =  ________________________________

>  

> =  zhangyunfei

>  2011-03-29

> =  ________________________________

>  

>  =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A =  Cullen  Jennings

>  =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A<= /span> =  2011-03-28  17:27:23

>  =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A  ppsp@ietf.org

>  =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A<= /p>

>  =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A  [ppsp]  Notes  from  PPSP  meeting =  IETF80

>  

>  

>  A    few   =  notes    I    took    from    the =    meeting

>  

>  First,    thank    you    to    Christian    Schmidt =    for    taking    minutes   =  and

>  Martin    Stiemerling =    for    jabber   =  scribing.

>  

>  We    need   =  to    prioritize    the    use   =  cases    and    decide    what    we =    will

>  work    on   =  first.

>  

>  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement =    is    getting    close    to    WGLC

>  

>  We    will   =  likely    adopt    draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol   =  as    a    WG

>  item

>  

>  Were    about   =  60    people    in   =  room

>  

>  

>  

>  

>  _______________________________________________

>  ppsp    mailing    list

_____________________________________________= __

ppsp  mailing =  list


_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
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--Boundary_(ID_8abfT/60KWb2+4xFGk9oPQ)-- From davidbryan@gmail.com Mon Apr 18 07:26:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A26A5E0772 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 07:26:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.962, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uy3j2iUhBnLx for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 07:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com (mail-wy0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F977E0770 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 07:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wyb29 with SMTP id 29so4483733wyb.31 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 07:25:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=XYfTHEpxkjcB/W1GdivWJOONrISvRty3yt6X2XU7Sv0=; b=QuBgZFvxMLNb9CIJD+NJ/3PblAUFuhXexTt17Hw6kCnTAEZ+tQfRKoYZ8QZTiC/5ZN /Ilxznuo9G+Qhqw/0igJ45F3Djqt2l6cy2mNl5ETousmFYOtkT/n6LTneGcsZ1h3YgGx x2q+SwJq/lC8LPWct0osDqmBIGyITeN7fefkw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=FN54t8GPfn9OKRJHElBD08Nrk0eHQMspHNcZp+KS5MO9y3j7JiFUYRMgqHEqjVRSiz /qufNqLIX6dEaIXCeogT7DeXMb13A2JveaRhUqNhyISLceQBftt127ZSRiJuJ+WrK4Tn GklOF2ms336LUG5VEnLHpHHVYZFjWtfKpsoL8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.179.138 with SMTP id bq10mr5223448wbb.12.1303136758171; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 07:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Sender: davidbryan@gmail.com Received: by 10.227.148.5 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 07:25:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <00af01cbfd9f$d84b1de0$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> References: <00af01cbfd9f$d84b1de0$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 10:25:58 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: YwjQ4QzUXPCB94GbCpInkzBMST4 Message-ID: From: "David A. Bryan" To: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 14:26:03 -0000 So a few comments here. In full disclosure, I'm an author on the draft, and so would personally like to see it adopted and think it is a good base, but there is obviously some inherent bias on my part... My experience in the past has been that until you have a draft of some kind (protocol or a design document) in which to document consensus it is very hard to drive forward. Some folks don't even read drafts or get involved in a group until it has WG items. We have had debate at several meetings on some of these issues (HTTP/Binary, offline support, etc.) and it has been tough to drive toward consensus, get it documented, and move on. Newcomers join and the same issues get hashed again and again since there isn't a document to track consensus. (Sometimes you are lucky if you can get the comments until last call...) In P2PSIP, we had several competing (and in function, very similar, with one exception) proposals, and the authors spent lots of time incorporating each other's tweaks into their drafts. It took years (literally) to resolve, finally by merging the drafts. Once that happened, the group debated the technical points, and had a clear place to document the consensus -- the adopted draft. Other groups achieve the same goal using a design draft. I prefer we adopt, but if we don't adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as a WG item, then I would at least suggest a WG item for a new design draft that does nothing but list the big questions, and use that to drive and document WG consensus (i.e., discussion, then slides and hums on each question, then confirm it on list and wrap up that document), or appoint a design team to go make either a design or protocol draft so that we can spend time productively. What I'd like to avoid is spending time nailing down every detail of multiple proposals when there is no place to clearly document the direction the group wants to go in the first place. On a few specific issues raised about the draft: The binary encoding remains in the draft simply because while the authors prefer HTTP, we haven't been able to get a clear WG consensus. We would be willing to adjust the draft to reflect the desired encoding (and change/modify as the group discussion evolves accordingly). We spend more time on the operations -- I feel the encoding is much less important than getting the operations right (which we would love feedback on -- we may very well have them wrong, but there hasn't been much discussion on list about that, despite it being the most important question in my opinion) On the offline question, there has been a great deal of discussion in the early meetings (I missed Prague, so forgive me if things changed) to allow time-shifted, BT style designs as well. We reflected that in the draft, but again, it would be good to discuss further. For those asking about this, it might be good to go back and listen to the old minutes (particularly the BoF). There was very strong consensus in the room to support offline as well as real-time. I do agree this is perhaps not well reflected in the charter, and again, it would be good to document this consensus -- one way or another -- somewhere. As mentioned, bootstrapping is explicitly out of scope in the charter at present. Security definitely needs more work and Akbar's comment is valid -- we need to reorganize the text into one location. We would also love comments on list about this topic. The discussion online has been pretty quiet. David On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 4:08 AM, Yingjie Gu(yingjie) wrote: > Sorry, I remembered this comment, but forget to list it. We definitely ne= ed > a security consideration. > > Thanks again. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Rahman, Akbar [mailto:Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com] > Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 12:25 PM > To: Yingjie Gu(yingjie) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext Ping Pan > Subject: RE: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation > > > > Hi Yingjie, > > > > I agree with your list of major improvements required for the tracker I-D= . > I would also add to this list the comment that I had given on security > previously. Specifically: > > > > I think we need to have a separate "Security Considerations" section i= n > the document > > as is usually found in most drafts. At the present time, there are > security related > > points spread throughout the document and I found it hard to deduce th= e > overall > > security approach. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Akbar > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Yingjie Gu(yingjie) > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 9:25 PM > To: 'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'; 'ext Ping Pan' > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation > > > > Hi, > > Thank all of you for your comments and supports. > > All comments are aiming to make the draft more suitable for a WG item, > though people may have different ideas on adoption. > > I always agree the draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol still need improvement = no > matter we adopt it now or later. > > As answer to chairs' and other experts comments, > > 1) composing a section to 'analyze the strengh and drawback of both > encodings in the protocol draft', It's okay to add some analysis text in = the > draft, but since we can not make an accurate calculation on bandwidth > consuming before we make exact messages definition, I don't think the > analysis text will include bandwidth consuming calculation comparison > between text-based and binary based. Besides, since we already have a rou= gh > consensus on Text-based encoding, I think we can answer the encoding > question as "text-based encoding". Any objection to this? The draft has > described a HTTP-based encoding. > > 2) As for Transport protocol, as Yunfei has said as a chair, this has be= en > clarified in Charter. Personally, I think TCP is okay for Tracker protoc= ol, > but UDP is better for Peer protocol. This is idea is also from some other > people I talked with. But currently, the WG has not make any decision tha= t > Transport protocol choice is in scope of Tracker and Peer Protocol, so > Tracker protocol authors will follow WG Charter for now, unless Transport > protocol choice is pushed to PPSP protocol design. > > 3) As for NAT Traversal, there is already a good draft to analyzing and > providing solution to it. Tracker protocol will receive the requirements > from the NAT draft and make sure Tracker protocol is able to support comm= on > requirements for various NAT Traversal solution. > > 4) There is some confusing description, most in introduction section, th= e > authors promise to revise it next version. > > 5) The Binary encoding, which is in appendix now, will be removed in nex= t > version. > > Are there other major comments I missed? > > > > If you have any objection to the above answer, please voice out, so that = the > WG can have a discussion on that. > > If there is no objection, will the Chairs be glad with rough consensus on > the above comments? > > > > Again, thank all of you and all the comments are highly appreciated. > > BR > > Yingjie > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 4:54 PM > To: ext Ping Pan > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation > > > > I don't think it's fanny at all! I remember the WG chairs showed the same > idea with me, and got the consensus at the meeting. > > > > If it's a vegetarian restaurant, no one will cook steak for you.You can s= ay > the food is not that good, but I believe it's still vegetable. What's you= r > solution? Cook yourself? or I think we should help the chef to improve th= e > quality of the food "in the restaurant". Or if you are not interested in = the > restaurant, you can just leave. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: ext Ping Pan [mailto:ping@pingpan.org] > Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:57 PM > To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > Cc: ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation > > Interesting logic! > > > > I go a restaurant for vegetarian food. Instead, I'm offered with steak. W= hat > would my choices? Eat the meat because it's cooked already? Have a salad = and > let it go by? Leave the restaurant altogether? Or ask the chef to prepare > the food I want? > > > > > > 2011/4/15 Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) > > Hi, > > > > I think PPSP WG has the interest to study the PPSP tracker > protocol,and "draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03" is the only draft on the > table, so we should accept this as WG draft. It's true that efforts are > still needed to improve the quality of the draft, but more work still can= be > done after it's accepted as a WG draft, right? Do we have another choice= ? > > > > > > BR > > Lin > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of e= xt > zhangyunfei > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:03 PM > To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation > > Hi all, > > For the transport protocol, which is beyond the current scope of PP= SP, > as suggested in the charter. However when we talk about the transport > protocol used in practice for P2P streaming applications, UDP has been se= en > the most commonly used protocol now, with the transition from TCP to UDP > both for data transport. And many applications(e.g., ppstream, pplive) ev= en > change from TCP to use UDP for signaling > transport(draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-00). > > The rational behind this is that firstly, streaming applications > *don't*care much of packet loss and secondly, p2p streaming tracker and p= eer > query mechanism ensures there are *enough* active peers to exchange data,= so > a peer doesn't care *much* if one request is successfully transmitted or > not. This is proven in wired network. But when we consider a converged > environment, we may need more investigation on whether UDP is *enough* fo= r > transport. > > For the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is accepta= ble > by most guys and there are some uncertainty on "binary", I would suggest > (individually) to add one section to analyze the strengh and drawback of > both encodings in the protocol draft. > > Regarding the WG item adoption, I would like to see that there is > rough consensus on the questions recently raised and discussed in the > mailing list before the adoption. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > > > ________________________________ > > zhangyunfei > > 2011-04-12 > > ________________________________ > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-04-08 22:25:40 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation > > > > [speaking as individual - not as PPSP co-chair] > > > > Hi there, > > > > Here is my incomplete review of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 = and > my opinion of whether it is ready to become WG item: > > > > - Why are there still 2 encodings in the draft? Isn't it time > to conclude on one encoding? > > - Section 1: "the main part is the abstract description of the > operations...". This means that this is actually not a draft > about the tracker protocol? > > - Section 1: "for both a bittorrent style offline and real-time > streaming protocol". Why is it so? We are in PPSP, so we sho= uld > work on something for streaming, isn't it? > > - Why is there the notion of battery level in the status > messages? > > - Section 9.1.3: What is the issue with fragmentation in here? > > - What is the transport protocol where the tracker protocol sho= uld > run over? > > > > The proposed methods look reasonable, but the overall draft > organization still suffers from what Section 1 hints to that i= t > is solely an abstract description of the operations. > > > > > > > > I'm **not** in favor of getting draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 = to > be a WG item, for these reasons: > > - document quality is not good enough in my opinion > > - it is unclear what the transport protocol is. there is a hi= nt > to UDP, which is not a good choice to be used in this > particular case > > - there is not yet a real protocol described in the draft, bu= t > only the skeletons of two protocols (binary and HTTP). > > > > I would suggest (still speaking as individual) to first make so= me > important decisions, e.g., encoding, fix the document, etc and > **afterwards** make a new call for WG adoption. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Martin > > > > > > martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu > > > > NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division > > NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria > Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > >> To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > >> Cc: Martin Stiemerling > >> Subject: WG item adoption confirmation > >> > >> Hi all, > >> As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely adopt >> draft-gu- > >> ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the >> mailing list > >> if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > >> If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the dra= ft >> above will > >> be accepted as WG document fulfilling the "tracker protocol" > >> deliverable.Thanks. > >> > >> BR > >> Yunfei > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> > >> zhangyunfei > >> 2011-03-29 > >> ________________________________ > >> > >> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen Jennings > >> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > >> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > >> =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA > >> =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80 > >> > >> > >> A few notes I took from the meeting > >> > >> First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking >> minutes and > >> Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. > >> > >> We need to prioritize the use cases and decide >> what we will > >> work on first. > >> > >> draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to WG= LC > >> > >> We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as >> a WG > >> item > >> > >> Were about 60 people in room > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ppsp mailing list > >> ppsp@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Apr 21 01:54:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06CC5E074A for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:54:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new 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IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.5.0.1024-18080.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--36.256-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--36.256-7.0-31-10;No--36.256-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No;No Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:54:17 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon822136481052_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgYWxsLA0KICAgIEFzIHRoZSBjby1jaGFpcixJIHdvdWxkIHN1Z2dlc3QgdG8gY29uY2VudHJh dGUgdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gb24gdGhlIHRlY2hpbmNhbCBpc3N1ZXMuIE15IHVuZGVyc3RhbmRp bmcgaXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBkcmFmdCBpcyBpbmRlZWQgKnZlZ2V0YWJsZXMqLiBJdCBt 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from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uiao8jyrPQr8 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 06:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idcout.InterDigital.com (idcexmail.interdigital.com [12.32.197.135]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B9EE00BE for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 06:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.12]) by idcout.InterDigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:48:31 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC002A.CCAB3926" Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:48:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <201104181038582999657@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Thread-Index: AcwAAbT+bGu6dr3+SeqEb+0Dxp88FAAKMB2w References: <201103291621340759227@chinamobile.com><201104121203222940840@chinamobile.com><08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDB013DAEBF@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net><08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDB013DB06D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> <201104181038582999657@chinamobile.com> From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: "zhangyunfei" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Apr 2011 13:48:31.0111 (UTC) FILETIME=[CCC6D170:01CC002A] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:48:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC002A.CCAB3926 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yunfei, =20 =20 I support your proposal for analyzing the encoding issue (as per the = quote below) =20 =A1=B0For the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is = acceptable by most guys and there are some uncertainty on "binary", I = would suggest (individually) to add one section to analyze the strength = and drawback of both encodings in the protocol draft.=A1=B1 =20 =20 =20 Akbar =20 =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = zhangyunfei Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:39 PM To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext Ping Pan Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =20 Hi all, As the co-chair,I would suggest to concentrate the discussion on the = techincal issues. My understanding is that the current draft is indeed = *vegetables*. It may be not perfect now. But anyway it's not *steak*. = This is just what the WG should do to improve the draft quality = accroding to the techincal discussion. Shall I ask the WG: For the encoding issue, who doesn't think that = it's a reasonable way to add the comparison analysis part betwwen binary = and text in the draft, in the context of no convincing reason to use = binary?Shall we move forward the draft in this way? =20 Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-04-18 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-04-17 16:54:58 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext Ping Pan =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =20 I don't think it's fanny at all! I remember the WG chairs showed the = same idea with me, and got the consensus at the meeting. =20 If it's a vegetarian restaurant, no one will cook steak for you.You can = say the food is not that good, but I believe it's still vegetable. = What's your solution? Cook yourself? or I think we should help the chef = to improve the quality of the food "in the restaurant". Or if you are = not interested in the restaurant, you can just leave. =20 ________________________________ From: ext Ping Pan [mailto:ping@pingpan.org]=20 Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:57 PM To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Interesting logic!=20 =20 I go a restaurant for vegetarian food. Instead, I'm offered with steak. = What would my choices? Eat the meat because it's cooked already? Have a = salad and let it go by? Leave the restaurant altogether? Or ask the chef = to prepare the food I want? =20 =20 2011/4/15 Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Hi,=20 =20 I think PPSP WG has the interest to study the PPSP tracker protocol,and = "draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03" is the only draft on the table, so = we should accept this as WG draft. It's true that efforts are still = needed to improve the quality of the draft, but more work still can be = done after it's accepted as a WG draft, right? Do we have another = choice? =20 =20 BR=20 Lin =20 =20 ________________________________ From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:03 PM To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Hi all, For the transport protocol, which is beyond the current scope of = PPSP, as suggested in the charter. However when we talk about the = transport protocol used in practice for P2P streaming applications, UDP = has been seen the most commonly used protocol now, with the transition = from TCP to UDP both for data transport. And many applications(e.g., = ppstream, pplive) even change from TCP to use UDP for signaling = transport(draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-00).=20 The rational behind this is that firstly, streaming applications = *don't*care much of packet loss and secondly, p2p streaming tracker and = peer query mechanism ensures there are *enough* active peers to exchange = data, so a peer doesn't care *much* if one request is successfully = transmitted or not. This is proven in wired network. But when we = consider a converged environment, we may need more investigation on = whether UDP is *enough* for transport. For the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is = acceptable by most guys and there are some uncertainty on "binary", I = would suggest (individually) to add one section to analyze the strengh = and drawback of both encodings in the protocol draft.=20 Regarding the WG item adoption, I would like to see that there is = rough consensus on the questions recently raised and discussed in the = mailing list before the adoption. =20 BR Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-04-12 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-04-08 22:25:40 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation =20 [speaking as individual - not as PPSP co-chair] =20 Hi there, =20 Here is my incomplete review of draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 = and my opinion of whether it is ready to become WG item: =20 - Why are there still 2 encodings in the draft? Isn't it = time to conclude on one encoding? - Section 1: "the main part is the abstract description of = the operations...". This means that this is actually not a = draft about the tracker protocol? - Section 1: "for both a bittorrent style offline and = real-time streaming protocol". Why is it so? We are in PPSP, = so we should work on something for streaming, isn't it? - Why is there the notion of battery level in the status = messages? - Section 9.1.3: What is the issue with fragmentation in here? = =20 - What is the transport protocol where the tracker protocol = should run over? =20 The proposed methods look reasonable, but the overall draft = organization still suffers from what Section 1 hints to that = it is solely an abstract description of the operations. =20 =20 =20 =20 I'm **not** in favor of getting draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03 = to be a WG item, for these reasons: - document quality is not good enough in my opinion - it is unclear what the transport protocol is. there is a = hint to UDP, which is not a good choice to be used in this = particular case - there is not yet a real protocol described in the draft, = but only the skeletons of two protocols (binary and HTTP). =20 =20 I would suggest (still speaking as individual) to first make = some important decisions, e.g., encoding, fix the document, etc = and **afterwards** make a new call for WG adoption. =20 Thanks, =20 Martin =20 =20 martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu =20 NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria = Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 =20 =20 =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:22 AM > To: Cullen Jennings; ppsp@ietf.org > Cc: Martin Stiemerling > Subject: WG item adoption confirmation > =20 > Hi all, > As discussed in yesterday's meeting, we will likely = adopt draft-gu- > ppsp-tracker-protocol as a new WG item. Please post on the = mailing list > if you have any objections on this before Apr. 10th. > If there are no objections by Apr. 10th 2011, the = draft above will > be accepted as WG document fulfilling the =A1=B0tracker = protocol=A1=B1 > deliverable.Thanks. > =20 > BR > Yunfei > =20 > =20 > =20 > ________________________________ > =20 > zhangyunfei > 2011-03-29 > ________________________________ > =20 > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen Jennings > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-03-28 17:27:23 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Notes from PPSP meeting IETF80 > =20 > =20 > A few notes I took from the meeting > =20 > First, thank you to Christian Schmidt for taking = minutes and > Martin Stiemerling for jabber scribing. > =20 > We need to prioritize the use cases and = decide what we will > work on first. > =20 > draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement is getting close to = WGLC > =20 > We will likely adopt draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as = a WG > item > =20 > Were about 60 people in room > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC002A.CCAB3926 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Yunfei,

 

 

I support your proposal for analyzing the encoding issue = (as per the quote below)

 

= =A1=B0For the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is acceptable = by most guys and there are some uncertainty on "binary", I would = suggest (individually) to add one section to analyze the strength and = drawback of both encodings in the protocol draft.=A1=B1

 

 

 

Akbar

 

 

From:= = ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of zhangyunfei
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:39 PM
To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing); ext Ping Pan
Cc: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption = confirmation

 

Hi = all,

    = As the co-chair,I would suggest to concentrate the discussion on the techincal = issues. My understanding is that the current draft is indeed *vegetables*. It = may be not perfect now. But anyway it's not *steak*. This is just what the = WG should do to improve the draft quality accroding to the techincal discussion.

    = Shall I ask the WG: For the encoding issue, who doesn't think that it's a = reasonable way to add the comparison analysis part betwwen binary and text in the = draft, in the context of no convincing reason to use binary?Shall we = move forward the draft in this way?

 

Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-04-18=

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= =A3=BA Xiao, Lin = (NSN - CN/Beijing)

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1= =BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-04-17 16:54:58

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB= =A3=BA ext Ping = Pan

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA= ext = zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA= RE: = [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation

 

I don't think it's fanny at all! I remember the WG chairs showed the same idea with me, and got the = consensus at the meeting.=

 

If it's a vegetarian = restaurant, no one will cook steak for you.You can say the food is not that good, but I believe it's still vegetable. What's your solution? Cook yourself? = or I think we should help the chef to improve the quality of the food = "in the restaurant". Or if you are not interested in the restaurant, you = can just leave.=

 

From:= ext Ping = Pan [mailto:ping@pingpan.org]
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:57 PM
To: Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)
Cc: ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation=

Interesting logic! =

 

I go a restaurant = for vegetarian food. Instead, I'm offered with steak. What would my choices? Eat the = meat because it's cooked already? Have a salad and let it go by? Leave the restaurant altogether? Or ask the chef to prepare the food I = want?

 

 =

2011/4/15 Xiao, Lin (NSN - = CN/Beijing) <lin.xiao@nsn.com>

Hi,

 

I think PPSP WG has the interest = to study the PPSP tracker protocol,and "draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03" is the = only draft on the table, so we should accept this as WG draft. It's true that efforts are still needed to improve the quality of the draft, but more work still can be done after it's accepted as a WG = draft, right?  Do we have another choice?

 

 

BR

Lin

 

 

From:= ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:03 PM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation=

Hi = all,=

   &= nbsp;  For the transport protocol, which is beyond the current scope of PPSP, = as suggested in the charter. However when we talk about the transport = protocol used in practice for P2P streaming applications, UDP has been seen the = most commonly used protocol now, with the transition from TCP to UDP both for = data transport. And many applications(e.g., ppstream, pplive) even = change from TCP to use UDP for signaling transport(draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-00). = =

   &= nbsp;   The rational behind this is that firstly, streaming applications = *don't*care much of packet loss and secondly, p2p streaming tracker and peer = query mechanism ensures there are *enough* active peers to exchange data, so a = peer doesn't care *much* if one request is successfully transmitted or not. = This is proven in wired network. But when we consider a converged environment, = we may need more investigation on whether UDP is *enough* for = transport.=

   &= nbsp;  For the encoding issue, since we polled and seems "text" is acceptable by most guys and there are some uncertainty on = "binary", I would suggest (individually) to add one section to analyze the = strengh and drawback of both encodings in the protocol draft. =

   &= nbsp;  Regarding the WG item adoption, I would like to see that there is rough consensus = on the questions recently raised and discussed in the mailing list before the adoption.=

 

BR=

Yunfei=

 

zhangyunfei=

2011-04-12

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= =A3=BA Martin = Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1= =BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-04-08 22:25:40

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB= =A3=BA = ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA= = =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA= Re: = [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation

 

[speaking  as =  individual  -  not  as  PPSP =  co-chair]

 

Hi =  there,

 

Here  is  my  incomplete  review  of =  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03  and  my  opinion  of  whether  it =  is  ready  to  become  WG =  item:

 

-  Why  are =  there  still  2  encodings  in  the  draft? =  Isn't  it  time  to  conclude  on  one =  encoding?

-  Section  1:  "the  main  part  is  the  abstract  description  of  the  operations...". =  This  means  that  this  is  actually  not =  a  draft  about  the  tracker =  protocol?

-  Section  1:  "for  both  a  bittorrent  style =  offline  and  real-time  streaming  protocol". =  Why  is  it  so?  We  are  in  PPSP, =  so  we  should  work  on  something  for  streaming,  isn't  it?

-  Why  is =  there  the  notion  of  battery  level  in =  the  status  messages?

-  Section  9.1.3:  What  is  the  issue  with  fragmentation  in  here?  

-  What  is =  the  transport  protocol  where  the  tracker  protocol  should  run  over?

 

The  proposed =  methods  look  reasonable,  but  the  overall =  draft  organization  still  suffers  from  what  Section  1  hints  to  that  it  is  solely  an  abstract  description  of =  the  operations.  

 

 

 

I'm  **not**  in  favor  of  getting =  draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-03  to  be  a  WG  item,  for  these  reasons:

-  document =  quality  is  not  good  enough  in  my =  opinion

-  it  is =  unclear  what  the  transport  protocol  is. =  there  is  a  hint  to  UDP,  which  is =  not  a  good  choice  to  be  used  in  this  particular  case

-  there  is =  not  yet  a  real  protocol  described  in =  the  draft,  but  only  the  skeletons  of =  two  protocols  (binary  and  HTTP). =  

 

I  would  suggest  (still  speaking  as  individual)  to =  first  make  some  important  decisions,  e.g.,  encoding,  fix  the  document,  etc  and  **afterwards**  make  a  new  call  for =  WG  adoption.

 

Thanks,

 

  =  Martin

 

 

 

NEC  Laboratories =  Europe  -  Network  Research =  Division

NEC  Europe =  Limited  |  Registered  Office:  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,  London  W3  6BL  |  Registered  in  England  2832014 =  

 

 

>  -----Original  Message-----

>  From: =  zhangyunfei  [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]

>  Sent: =  Tuesday,  March  29,  2011  10:22 =  AM

>  To:  Cullen  Jennings;  ppsp@ietf.org

>  Cc:  Martin  Stiemerling

>  Subject:  WG  item  adoption  confirmation

> =  

>  Hi =  all,

>       =  As  discussed  in  yesterday's  meeting,  we =  will  likely  adopt  draft-gu-

> =  ppsp-tracker-protocol  as  a  new  WG  item.  Please  post  on  the  mailing  list

>  if  you =  have  any  objections  on  this  before  Apr.  10th.

>       =    If  there  are  no  objections  by =  Apr.  10th  2011,  the  draft  above =  will

>  be  accepted  as  WG  document  fulfilling  the =  =A1=B0tracker  protocol=A1=B1

> =  deliverable.Thanks.

> =  

> =  BR

> =  Yunfei

> =  

> =  

> =  

>  ________________________________

> =  

> =  zhangyunfei

> =  2011-03-29

>  ________________________________

> =  

>  =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= =A3=BA =  Culle= n  Jennings

>  =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1= =BC=E4=A3=BA =  2011-03-28  17:27:23

>  =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB= =A3=BA  ppsp@ietf.org

>  =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA= =

>  =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA= =  [ppsp]  Notes  from  PPSP  meeting =  IETF80

> =  

> =  

>  A    few =    notes    I    took    from   =  the    meeting

> =  

>  First,   =  thank    you    to    Christian   =  Schmidt    for    taking    minutes   =  and

>  Martin    Stiemerling    for    jabber   =  scribing.

> =  

>  We   =  need    to    prioritize    the   =  use    cases    and    decide   =  what    we    will

>  work   =  on    first.

> =  

>  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement    is   =  getting    close    to   =  WGLC

> =  

>  We   =  will    likely    adopt    draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol    as    a =    WG

> =  item

> =  

>  Were   =  about    60    people    in   =  room

> =  

> =  

> =  

> =  

> =  _______________________________________________

>  ppsp   =  mailing    list

______________________________= _________________

ppsp  mailing =  list


_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

 

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