From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Wed May 11 02:22:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC03E0739 for ; Wed, 11 May 2011 02:22:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.279 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.279 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.321, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K5PIG7a+ld6q for ; Wed, 11 May 2011 02:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp0.neclab.eu (smtp0.neclab.eu [195.37.70.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 688CEE06B4 for ; Wed, 11 May 2011 02:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp0.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C502C00008C; Wed, 11 May 2011 11:22:40 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas2.office.hd) Received: from smtp0.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas2.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TCNZCxuBwlrg; Wed, 11 May 2011 11:22:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by smtp0.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A64642C00008B; Wed, 11 May 2011 11:22:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Polydeuces.office.hd ([169.254.3.77]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Wed, 11 May 2011 11:22:20 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" , "'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'" , 'ext Ping Pan' Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Thread-Index: AQHL+3DF5LpT4WCFgki8dDEkiXRKMpRe0Z4AgALQB4CAARTJAIAkyvzw Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 09:22:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <08E397856DC04A468C8283DC63E5EFDB013DB06D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> <007501cbfd67$6ce7cae0$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <007501cbfd67$6ce7cae0$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.67] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 09:22:45 -0000 W3dyaXRpbmcgYXMgaW5kaXZpZHVhbCBjb250cmlidXRvciBhbmQgbm90IGFzIGNoYWlyXQ0KSGks IA0KDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogcHBzcC1ib3VuY2Vz QGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86cHBzcC1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YNCj4g WWluZ2ppZSBHdSh5aW5namllKQ0KPiBTZW50OiBNb25kYXksIEFwcmlsIDE4LCAyMDExIDM6MjUg QU0NCj4gVG86ICdYaWFvLCBMaW4gKE5TTiAtIENOL0JlaWppbmcpJzsgJ2V4dCBQaW5nIFBhbicN 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ZSBkcmFmdCwgc28gd2UgY2FuIGNhbGwgZm9yIGNvbW1lbnRzIG9uIHRoZSB0ZXh0IGFuZCBmb3Ig YWRvcHRpb24gYXMgV0cgaXRlbS4gDQoNCiAgTWFydGluDQoNCm1hcnRpbi5zdGllbWVybGluZ0Bu ZWNsYWIuZXUNCg0KTkVDIExhYm9yYXRvcmllcyBFdXJvcGUgLSBOZXR3b3JrIFJlc2VhcmNoIERp dmlzaW9uDQpORUMgRXVyb3BlIExpbWl0ZWQgfCBSZWdpc3RlcmVkIE9mZmljZTogTkVDIEhvdXNl LCAxIFZpY3RvcmlhIFJvYWQsIExvbmRvbiBXMyA2QkwgfCBSZWdpc3RlcmVkIGluIEVuZ2xhbmQg MjgzMjAxNA0K From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Wed May 11 02:32:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C61E0788 for ; Wed, 11 May 2011 02:32:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.939 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.939 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.660, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GtpwJAfoi6UU for ; Wed, 11 May 2011 02:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp0.neclab.eu (smtp0.neclab.eu [195.37.70.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BD9CE06BA for ; Wed, 11 May 2011 02:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp0.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3592C000149; Wed, 11 May 2011 11:32:23 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas2.office.hd) Received: from smtp0.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas2.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5+hflDiKyjaG; Wed, 11 May 2011 11:32:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from METHONE.office.hd (Methone.office.hd [192.168.24.54]) by smtp0.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3CFE2C00008C; Wed, 11 May 2011 11:32:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Polydeuces.office.hd ([169.254.3.77]) by METHONE.office.hd ([192.168.24.54]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Wed, 11 May 2011 11:32:09 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "David A. Bryan" , "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation Thread-Index: AQHL+3DF5LpT4WCFgki8dDEkiXRKMpRe0Z4AgALQB4CAARTJAIAAMkyAgAA+jICAAGliAIAj8tFg Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 09:32:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <00af01cbfd9f$d84b1de0$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.67] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 09:32:25 -0000 Hi Bryan, > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > David A. Bryan > Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 4:26 PM > To: Yingjie Gu(yingjie) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG item adoption confirmation >=20 > So a few comments here. In full disclosure, I'm an author on the > draft, and so would personally like to see it adopted and think it is > a good base, but there is obviously some inherent bias on my part... >=20 > My experience in the past has been that until you have a draft of some > kind (protocol or a design document) in which to document consensus it > is very hard to drive forward. Some folks don't even read drafts or > get involved in a group until it has WG items. We have had debate at > several meetings on some of these issues (HTTP/Binary, offline > support, etc.) and it has been tough to drive toward consensus, get it > documented, and move on. Newcomers join and the same issues get hashed > again and again since there isn't a document to track consensus. > (Sometimes you are lucky if you can get the comments until last > call...) I subscribe to the first point of having the need to document decisions and= design in a draft. However, I oppose the second part of having first a WG = item before people start reading. I still see the need to have a technical = sound document before moving it to a WG item. This is not yet the case for = the tracker protocol draft.=20 It is indeed a pity that many people only read drafts once they are in WGLC= .=20 >=20 > In P2PSIP, we had several competing (and in function, very similar, > with one exception) proposals, and the authors spent lots of time > incorporating each other's tweaks into their drafts. It took years > (literally) to resolve, finally by merging the drafts. Once that > happened, the group debated the technical points, and had a clear > place to document the consensus -- the adopted draft. Other groups > achieve the same goal using a design draft. I guess we are fine with the single draft, but we need an update of the dra= ft right now. There is no way of moving forward without having an updated v= ersion of the draft rather soon and not just before the meeting. I see this= draft on the right track, but the response time to get a new draft out of = the door isn't that good at this point of time. >=20 > I prefer we adopt, but if we don't adopt > draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol as a WG item, then I would at least > suggest a WG item for a new design draft that does nothing but list > the big questions, and use that to drive and document WG consensus > (i.e., discussion, then slides and hums on each question, then confirm > it on list and wrap up that document), or appoint a design team to go > make either a design or protocol draft so that we can spend time > productively. What I'd like to avoid is spending time nailing down > every detail of multiple proposals when there is no place to clearly > document the direction the group wants to go in the first place. We do not need another design draft, but should make some decisions and doc= ument them in the tracker protocol. And we need it now :) >=20 > On a few specific issues raised about the draft: >=20 > The binary encoding remains in the draft simply because while the > authors prefer HTTP, we haven't been able to get a clear WG consensus. > We would be willing to adjust the draft to reflect the desired > encoding (and change/modify as the group discussion evolves > accordingly). We spend more time on the operations -- I feel the > encoding is much less important than getting the operations right > (which we would love feedback on -- we may very well have them wrong, > but there hasn't been much discussion on list about that, despite it > being the most important question in my opinion) It is still draft and you do need WG consensus on that draft. However, it i= s preferable to capture the WGs decision for the encoding. I would say the = WG tends towards HTTP.=20 >=20 > On the offline question, there has been a great deal of discussion in > the early meetings (I missed Prague, so forgive me if things changed) > to allow time-shifted, BT style designs as well. We reflected that in > the draft, but again, it would be good to discuss further. For those > asking about this, it might be good to go back and listen to the old > minutes (particularly the BoF). There was very strong consensus in the > room to support offline as well as real-time. I do agree this is > perhaps not well reflected in the charter, and again, it would be good > to document this consensus -- one way or another -- somewhere. Why not go first with real-time? Isn't it better to get started with near-t= erm issues, such as real-time, and deal with offline afterwards?=20 I personally do not see yet the impact on the tracker protocol by this issu= e, but if there is a bigger issue, one could write a separate draft which d= eals with that. The outcome of that draft could be integrated in the tracke= r protocol later on. >=20 > As mentioned, bootstrapping is explicitly out of scope in the charter > at present. ACK. >=20 > Security definitely needs more work and Akbar's comment is valid -- we > need to reorganize the text into one location. We would also love > comments on list about this topic. The discussion online has been > pretty quiet. The discussion is indeed quiet. However, please update the document in May to get a new basis for the discu= ssions. Thank you Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London = W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 From guyingjie@huawei.com Fri May 20 01:49:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9FEE0713 for ; Fri, 20 May 2011 01:49:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F03dlUo+qAwS for ; Fri, 20 May 2011 01:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BCCEE06A6 for ; Fri, 20 May 2011 01:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LLH00B08KD8ZQ@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 20 May 2011 16:46:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml205-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LLH00CUQKD7CG@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 20 May 2011 16:46:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.32) by szxeml205-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.57) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Fri, 20 May 2011 16:46:14 +0800 Received: from g00107907 (10.138.41.104) by SZXEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Fri, 20 May 2011 16:46:18 +0800 Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:47:25 +0800 From: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.104] To: ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <006601cc16ca$8afd4240$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcwWyoqiw+uxF/8OSVuFgEIQjQpd/g== Subject: [ppsp] Please review updated version of Tracker protocol X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 08:49:30 -0000 Hi all, As promised, the authors revised and updated a new version of Tracker protocol according to meeting minutes and mailing list discussion. Please review it and feedback your comments. The authors hope Tracker protocol could be adopted as a WG item. So your comments are quite appreciated. Thanks. From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Mon May 23 05:08:40 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A604E0772 for ; Mon, 23 May 2011 05:08:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.169, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wg29xJLeKkeh for ; Mon, 23 May 2011 05:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp0.netlab.nec.de (smtp0.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE87E066A for ; Mon, 23 May 2011 05:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB0FB2800034C; Mon, 23 May 2011 14:08:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from smtp0.netlab.nec.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dhGvYiFfFrXC; Mon, 23 May 2011 14:08:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from METHONE.office.hd (Methone.office.hd [192.168.24.54]) by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C54D28000191; Mon, 23 May 2011 14:08:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from PALLENE.office.hd ([169.254.1.225]) by METHONE.office.hd ([192.168.24.54]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Mon, 23 May 2011 14:08:27 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" , "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Please review updated version of Tracker protocol Thread-Index: AcwWyoqiw+uxF/8OSVuFgEIQjQpd/gCd1NZw Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 12:08:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <006601cc16ca$8afd4240$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <006601cc16ca$8afd4240$68298a0a@china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.67] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ppsp] Please review updated version of Tracker protocol X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 12:08:40 -0000 Dear Yingjie, dear all, Thanks for updating the draft.=20 I will need a few days to read it and would encourage the WG to also read t= he draft and comment on it.=20 We will run a consensus call for WG adoption on this draft rather soon... Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London = W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Yingjie Gu(yingjie) > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 10:47 AM > To: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] Please review updated version of Tracker protocol >=20 > Hi all, > As promised, the authors revised and updated a new version of Tracker > protocol according to meeting minutes and mailing list discussion. > Please review it and feedback your comments. > The authors hope Tracker protocol could be adopted as a WG item. So > your comments are quite appreciated. > Thanks. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp