From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Mon Aug 1 06:26:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D56E21F8C96 for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:26:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.499, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HOJIP4RLj-zy for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D7721F8C94 for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1E9280002FE for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:26:15 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N9HedLIEyQx4 for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:26:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E58CF28000213 for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:26:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.20]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:26:10 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until August 15th Thread-Index: AcxQTcfw39L91KdRR/anqXle3vccpw== Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:26:08 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until August 15th X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:26:10 -0000 Dear all, We start a 2 weeks Working Group Last Call (WGLC) for draft-ietf-ppsp-probl= em-statement-02.txt, as agreed during the PPSP session at the IETF#81 meeti= ng. Please review the draft and send your comments to the PPSP list. Any type o= f review is appreciated, even it is saying only "I have read the draft and = it is ok".=20 However, a thorough review is required by a number of PPSP WG members (whic= h is YOU!).=20 The WGLC starts right now and will end August 14th, 6pm PDT. The draft is accessible in text, pdf, or html from this URL http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02 Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Re= gistered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in = England 2832014=20 From Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Wed Aug 3 14:43:11 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18A2511E807C for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 14:43:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gzXR68sGcQ4s for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 14:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idcout.InterDigital.com (idcexmail.interdigital.com [12.32.197.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9F621F8586 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 14:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.11]) by idcout.InterDigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:43:22 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:43:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until August 15th Thread-Index: AcxQTcfw39L91KdRR/anqXle3vccpwByOmDg References: From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: "Martin Stiemerling" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2011 21:43:22.0362 (UTC) FILETIME=[5DD8B5A0:01CC5226] Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until August 15th X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 21:43:11 -0000 Hi, I reviewed the PPSP problem statement and have the following comments: Technical Comments: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1) To be more balanced, the Intro (section 1, paragraph 2) should also point out that P2P approach requires more resources and computational power on the client (when compared to Client-Server architecture), as well as a lot of clients to participate in the P2P network for the network to be efficient. 2) In the Intro (Section 1, paragraph 3), it referred to CDN vendors that are starting to use P2P technologies. I then tried to find some more information about this trend on the first reference (Akamai). I found the following article http://gigaom.com/video/whatever-happened-to-red-swoosh/. In this article they concluded that Akamai was in fact NOT following the P2P model (as they have discontinued their Red Swoosh P2P approach). So my question to the authors is whether they are sure that this is still a valid trend (i.e. of CDN vendors starting to use P2P technologies)? If you are sure that this trend is valid maybe you can put some more (better) references for this. 3) In Section 3.1, I did not understand the following key phrases: - "ISPs are witnessing a big traffic tension on their backbone and inter-networking ports". =20 - "the variation in different P2P streaming systems mainly lies in how the chunks are scheduled to transfer rather than how the chunks availability information is exchanged" Can you please re-write them to be more clearer and explicit? 4) In Section 3.2: - The title is not clear (e.g. "interactionies" is not a valid English word) - The first paragraph, seems to imply that CCN approach will use P2P. I have been reading CCN papers for a while and I never reached this conclusion. Can you explain how you drew this conclusion? 5) I understand and agree on the general problem identified in Section 3.4. However the terminology of "daemon" seems particular to Unix, and makes a lot of SW design assumptions. Also, the focus on wireless terminals seems to overlap with the problem identified in Section 3.3. 6) In Sections 3.1, 3.2, and 3.4 there should be a short concluding paragraph as in section 3.3. 7) In Section 4, the 2nd paragraph was too long and needs to be broken up to multiple paragraphs to make it readable. Otherwise, I found the rest of the section to be clear and a good definition for PPSP! Editorial Comments: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 8) Section 1 (and elsewhere) The first paragraph reference to "[Cisco]" does not have a hyper-link in the HTML view. Probably because a space is missing between the reference and the previous word. The same problem occurs for numerous other references throughout the document. 9) Section 2 - The word "exchange" is spelled incorrectly in the definition of "Swarm" - In the last sentence in the definition of "tracker" the word "logic" should be changed to "logical" - The definition of "VoD" is not very clear and should be re-worded. (In contrast, the "Live Streaming" definition was much clearer.) /Akbar -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Stiemerling Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 9:26 AM To: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until August 15th Dear all, We start a 2 weeks Working Group Last Call (WGLC) for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt, as agreed during the PPSP session at the IETF#81 meeting. Please review the draft and send your comments to the PPSP list. Any type of review is appreciated, even it is saying only "I have read the draft and it is ok".=20 However, a thorough review is required by a number of PPSP WG members (which is YOU!).=20 The WGLC starts right now and will end August 14th, 6pm PDT. The draft is accessible in text, pdf, or html from this URL http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02 Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zongning@huawei.com Wed Aug 3 16:59:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE2CE21F86D0 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:59:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vslEuzIO1qxc for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D822121F86CA for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPD00A4MMMK2U@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 07:59:08 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPD00DPKMMKH1@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 07:59:08 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316a ([10.138.41.128]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LPD00AZWMMH7F@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 07:59:08 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 07:59:05 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: To: 'Johan Pouwelse' , ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <003d01cc5239$53b97ba0$fb2c72e0$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-cn Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcxNnuWmx9SFtPM3TWS8Zq3m+8O1ngEmjz5g References: Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIFJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBjb21tZW50czogZHJh?= =?gb2312?b?ZnQtaWV0Zi1wcHNwLXJlcXMtMDM=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 23:59:03 -0000 Hi, Johan, Thank you for your comments. I will do a new revision shortly. BR, Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Johan Pouwelse =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA7=D4=C229=C8=D5 11:23 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: [ppsp] Requirements comments: draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03 Dear PPSP people, The V03 requirements document reads as a mature piece of text and seems nearly ready to be finalized. Solid piece of work. Listed below are some proposed minor textual changes. As small as they = are textual, in terms of technical impact they are larger. All issues below where also raised and discussed publicly at PPSP IETF meeting 81 in Canada. Disclosure: in my capacity as scientific director of P2P-next I'm responsible for one of the three submitted peer protocols in PPSP. My comments are derived from our years of experience both measuring and deploying P2P streaming systems. Key comments are specifically targeted at enabling PPSP on low-power devices such as smartphones, TV settop boxes and tablets. The text currently contains some requirements which will add both needless complexity and battery drain, according to our experience. We very much welcome discussions regarding the remarks below. Please respond, even if you agree. . . In section 3 "Overview of PPSP", page 5. The definition of "report" lists many examples, but omits a commonly used item which is important for load balancing and fairness. Please consider adding "total amount of bytes uploaded/downloaded to neighbour peers". Still in Section 3 on page 6 regarding the very first sentence. Please make only minimal required functionality mandatory (see low-power remark above). For instance, by replacing existing text with: " 1) Standard format/encoding of information between PPSP peers and PPSP tracker. Some of this exchanged information may be explicitly marked as optional. Exchanged information may include peer list, swarm ID, chunk information, content availability, streaming status including online time, link status, node capability and other streaming parameters." PPSP.REQ-7 on page 7. Please replace with the following outcome of IETF meeting discussion. "The tracker protocol is recommended to be carried over TCP. The peer protocol is recommended to be carried over UDP in order to: facilitate NAT traversal techniques such as STUN/ICE, minimize network socket usage and facilitate congestion control algorithm for less-than-best-effort 'background' transmissions such as IETF LEDBAT." PPSP.REQ-8 on page 7. This requirement is very restrictive for our = design space. Do we really desire explicit QoS communication or do we simply require that the whole architecture support the QoS needed for = streaming? Please consider replacing this text with: "The tracker and peer protocols MUST support acceptable QoS (e.g. video quality, delay requirements) for both on-demand and live streaming. In other words, the two protocols together must be fit-for-purpose. For instance, the protocols must be able to provision sport events with less than 1 minute of total end-to-end delay." The second paragraph of PPSP.REQ-8 on page 7, beginning with: "The quality for P2P live streaming system could be very bad. Dependent from the".. The purpose and meaning of this whole section could be clarified, sharpened and made more demanding. My hope is that this paragraph can be replaced with clear requirements or that the entire paragraph is deleted {not fully happy with text below, please help out if you're inspired}: "PPSP.REQ-9: For both the live and on-demand streaming case the tracker = and peer protocols MUST facilitate low startup delay (e.g. must not include non-functional Round Trip Time (RTT) delays). PPSP.REQ-10: The tracker and peer protocol together MUST facilitate low startup delay, low channel/content switching time and minimal end-to-end delay for both on-demand and live streaming, even for very popular content. The tracker and peer protocol do NOT include the algorithm required for scalable streaming. However, the tracker and peer protocol SHALL NOT restrict or place limits on any such algorithm. The first paragraph on page 8 ends with "The tracker protocol must provide the possibility for the request of alternative peer addresses, if the quality is not sufficient for the user". Why do we specify a solution or mechanism in the requirements, instead of the survey? Can we delete this entire paragraph or move it to the survey? Section 4.3 "PPSP Peer Protocol Requirements" on page 9. To prevent DoS problems it is vital that hearsay amongst peers is not allowed. Please revise PPSP.PP.REQ-1 with: "The streaming content available request message MUST allow a peer to = obtain information about chunk availability of another peer. The chunk information MUST at least contain the chunk ID. This chunk availability information MUST NOT be = passed on to other peer, unless validated (e.g. prevent hearsay and DoS)." Again on page 9 a similar issue exists with the peer list. Please revise PPSP.PP.REQ-3 by adding: "This additional list of peers MUST only contain peers which have been checked to be valid and online recently (e.g. prevent hearsay and DoS)." Concerning PPSP.PP.REQ-5 on page 10. Why is this required? This restricts the protocol design space. Please make this explicit information-based approach optional, as a feedback based approach utilising simple "failure detection" could perhaps yield similar or superior results. Greetings, johan. _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zongning@huawei.com Wed Aug 3 18:10:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA38821F8797 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 18:10:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.826 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.826 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FB0sJcJE8r43 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 18:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83BB21F86B6 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 18:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPD00AK3PY6MI@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:10:54 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPD00CMYPY6SC@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:10:54 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316a ([10.138.41.128]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LPD001BSPXUDH@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:10:54 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:10:42 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: To: 'Johan Pouwelse' , ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <004901cc5243$54d196d0$fe74c470$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-cn Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcxNnuWmx9SFtPM3TWS8Zq3m+8O1ngEod7+Q References: Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIFJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBjb21tZW50czogZHJh?= =?gb2312?b?ZnQtaWV0Zi1wcHNwLXJlcXMtMDM=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 01:10:46 -0000 Hi, Johan, Please see inline. -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Johan Pouwelse =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA7=D4=C229=C8=D5 11:23 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: [ppsp] Requirements comments: draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03 Dear PPSP people, The V03 requirements document reads as a mature piece of text and seems nearly ready to be finalized. Solid piece of work. Listed below are some proposed minor textual changes. As small as they = are textual, in terms of technical impact they are larger. All issues below where also raised and discussed publicly at PPSP IETF meeting 81 in Canada. Disclosure: in my capacity as scientific director of P2P-next I'm responsible for one of the three submitted peer protocols in PPSP. My comments are derived from our years of experience both measuring and deploying P2P streaming systems. Key comments are specifically targeted at enabling PPSP on low-power devices such as smartphones, TV settop boxes and tablets. The text currently contains some requirements which will add both needless complexity and battery drain, according to our experience. We very much welcome discussions regarding the remarks below. Please respond, even if you agree. . . In section 3 "Overview of PPSP", page 5. The definition of "report" lists many examples, but omits a commonly used item which is important for load balancing and fairness. Please consider adding "total amount of bytes uploaded/downloaded to neighbour peers". [ZN] Agree. Still in Section 3 on page 6 regarding the very first sentence. Please make only minimal required functionality mandatory (see low-power remark above). For instance, by replacing existing text with: " 1) Standard format/encoding of information between PPSP peers and PPSP tracker. Some of this exchanged information may be explicitly marked as optional. Exchanged information may include peer list, swarm ID, chunk information, content availability, streaming status including online time, link status, node capability and other streaming parameters." [ZN] Agree. PPSP.REQ-7 on page 7. Please replace with the following outcome of IETF meeting discussion. "The tracker protocol is recommended to be carried over TCP. The peer protocol is recommended to be carried over UDP in order to: facilitate NAT traversal techniques such as STUN/ICE, minimize network socket usage and facilitate congestion control algorithm for less-than-best-effort 'background' transmissions such as IETF LEDBAT." [ZN] I don't think we have clear conclusion about using UDP or TCP for = peer protocol during the meeting. Chairs, could you confirm this? Bear in mind that current charter defines peer protocol as signaling = between peers, rather than data transmission. I want to hear more views from this list... PPSP.REQ-8 on page 7. This requirement is very restrictive for our = design space. Do we really desire explicit QoS communication or do we simply require that the whole architecture support the QoS needed for = streaming? Please consider replacing this text with: "The tracker and peer protocols MUST support acceptable QoS (e.g. video quality, delay requirements) for both on-demand and live streaming. In other words, the two protocols together must be fit-for-purpose. For instance, the protocols must be able to provision sport events with less than 1 minute of total end-to-end delay." The second paragraph of PPSP.REQ-8 on page 7, beginning with: "The quality for P2P live streaming system could be very bad. Dependent from the".. The purpose and meaning of this whole section could be clarified, sharpened and made more demanding. My hope is that this paragraph can be replaced with clear requirements or that the entire paragraph is deleted {not fully happy with text below, please help out if you're inspired}: "PPSP.REQ-9: For both the live and on-demand streaming case the tracker = and peer protocols MUST facilitate low startup delay (e.g. must not include non-functional Round Trip Time (RTT) delays). PPSP.REQ-10: The tracker and peer protocol together MUST facilitate low startup delay, low channel/content switching time and minimal end-to-end delay for both on-demand and live streaming, even for very popular content. The tracker and peer protocol do NOT include the algorithm required for scalable streaming. However, the tracker and peer protocol SHALL NOT restrict or place limits on any such algorithm. [ZN] I am fine with these proposals. Christian, what's your opinion? The first paragraph on page 8 ends with "The tracker protocol must provide the possibility for the request of alternative peer addresses, if the quality is not sufficient for the user". Why do we specify a solution or mechanism in the requirements, instead of the survey? Can we delete this entire paragraph or move it to the survey? [ZN] I think this whole paragraph is about examples and options - not to specify or mandate anything. Section 4.3 "PPSP Peer Protocol Requirements" on page 9. To prevent DoS problems it is vital that hearsay amongst peers is not allowed. Please revise PPSP.PP.REQ-1 with: "The streaming content available request message MUST allow a peer to = obtain information about chunk availability of another peer. The chunk information MUST at least contain the chunk ID. This chunk availability information MUST NOT be = passed on to other peer, unless validated (e.g. prevent hearsay and DoS)." Again on page 9 a similar issue exists with the peer list. Please revise PPSP.PP.REQ-3 by adding: "This additional list of peers MUST only contain peers which have been checked to be valid and online recently (e.g. prevent hearsay and DoS)." [ZN] Agree. But I prefer to move this DoS issue to security part, as I = don=A1=AF t want to repeat the security concern in each requirement of protocols. Concerning PPSP.PP.REQ-5 on page 10. Why is this required? This restricts the protocol design space. Please make this explicit information-based approach optional, as a feedback based approach utilising simple "failure detection" could perhaps yield similar or superior results. [ZN] Agree. Greetings, johan. _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Aug 3 19:54:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893335E8007 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:54:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.983 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.983 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.191, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WSm2rHEWfG+C for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B63F5E8001 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5134DA7FE; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:55:03 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D9AEA7F8; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:55:03 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.0.74]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011080410545890-5304 ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:54:58 +0800 Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:54:46 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Rahman, Akbar" , "Martin Stiemerling" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: Message-ID: <201108041054464022940@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-04 10:54:59, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-04 10:55:02, Serialize complete at 2011-08-04 10:55:02 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon676637458824_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18302.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--38.532-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--38.532-7.0-31-10;No--38.532-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txtstarting today until August 15th X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 02:54:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon676637458824_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgQWtiYXIsDQogICBUaGFua3MgZm9yIHlvdXIgY2FyZWZ1bCByZXZpZXcuIFBsZWFzZSBzZWUg 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(localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1DC811E80F1 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 22:51:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.373 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.373 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mni8RpBMT0zx for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 22:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idcout.InterDigital.com (idcexmail.interdigital.com [12.32.197.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E1D11E80E8 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 22:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.11]) by idcout.InterDigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 4 Aug 2011 01:51:29 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC526A.8E112D77" Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 01:51:10 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <201108041054464022940@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txtstarting today until August 15th Thread-Index: AcxSUfLa9EyHsIt1RRGoDOBcHA5/rAAF5EPA References: <201108041054464022940@chinamobile.com> From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: "zhangyunfei" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2011 05:51:29.0586 (UTC) FILETIME=[8E647120:01CC526A] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txtstarting today until August 15th X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 05:51:18 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC526A.8E112D77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yunfei, =20 =20 Thanks for your quick responses. Please see inline for my extra input = on the open issues (i.e. points 3 and 4). Otherwise, I am okay with all = your responses on all the other points. Finally, I would like to say = the authors did a good job on the document, and the quality of the = document was good from my point of view. =20 =20 Sincerely, =20 =20 Akbar =20 =20 From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 10:55 PM To: Rahman, Akbar; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txtstarting today until August 15th =20 Hi Akbar, Thanks for your careful review. Please see inline for the reply. =20 BR Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-08-04 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Rahman, Akbar =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-04 05:43:32 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] WGLC for = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txtstarting today until August 15th =20 Hi, =20 =20 I reviewed the PPSP problem statement and have the following = comments: =20 Technical Comments: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 1) To be more balanced, the Intro (section 1, paragraph 2) = should also point out that P2P approach requires more resources and = computational power on the client (when compared to Client-Server = architecture), as well as a lot of clients to participate in the P2P network = for the network to be efficient. =20 [Yunfei] Okay. I'll add this in the paragraph. =20 2) In the Intro (Section 1, paragraph 3), it referred to CDN = vendors that are starting to use P2P technologies. I then tried to = find some more information about this trend on the first reference = (Akamai). I found the following article http://gigaom.com/video/whatever-happened-to-red-swoosh/. In this article they concluded that Akamai was in fact NOT following = the P2P model (as they have discontinued their Red Swoosh P2P = approach). So my question to the authors is whether they are sure that this is = still a valid trend (i.e. of CDN vendors starting to use P2P = technologies)? If you are sure that this trend is valid maybe you can put some = more (better) references for this. =20 [Yunfei]Okay. I just talked with some CDN vendors that verifies this = trend. But need some=20 time to find published evidence. =20 3) In Section 3.1, I did not understand the following key = phrases: - "ISPs are witnessing a big traffic tension on their backbone = and inter-networking ports". =20 - "the variation in different P2P streaming systems mainly lies = in how the chunks are scheduled to transfer rather than how the = chunks availability information is exchanged" =20 Can you please re-write them to be more clearer and explicit? =20 [Yunfei] Can you clarify your questions on the first sentence? Regarding the second sentence, the basic idea is that different P2P = streaming systems compete on scheduling algorithms, which is independent of how = the peers exchange chunk availability.=20 In other words, different systems can have quite different scheuling = algorithms with same peer protocol. =20 =20 *** Akbar: On the first point, I do not understand what = =A1=B0inter-networking ports=A1=B1 mean. This is not a common term. On the second point, your explanation is good. Perhaps you can = re-word the original wording with the explanation you gave above. =20 =20 4) In Section 3.2: - The title is not clear (e.g. "interactionies" is not a = valid English word) - The first paragraph, seems to imply that CCN approach will = use P2P. I have been reading CCN papers for a while and I never reached = this conclusion. Can you explain how you drew this conclusion? [Yunfei] Oops. It should be "interactions".=20 Actually the reference of using CCN is not to say that=20 CCN approach will use P2P, rather the logic is as follows: CCN/DONA->content centric network trend->p2p streaming accounts a lot in = centent based networks. There is no direct relationship betwwen CCN and P2P streaming.If this is = not clear in the text, I can simply delete "CCN" in the description. =20 =20 =20 **** Akbar: Okay. Then I recommend you delete CCN from the description = as otherwise it is too confusing =20 =20 =20 5) I understand and agree on the general problem identified in = Section 3.4. However the terminology of "daemon" seems particular to = Unix, and makes a lot of SW design assumptions. Also, the focus on = wireless terminals seems to overlap with the problem identified in = Section 3.3. =20 [Yunfei]I'll merge the two parts and replace the ambiguous terminology. =20 =20 6) In Sections 3.1, 3.2, and 3.4 there should be a short = concluding paragraph as in section 3.3. =20 =20 7) In Section 4, the 2nd paragraph was too long and needs to = be broken up to multiple paragraphs to make it readable. Otherwise, I = found the rest of the section to be clear and a good definition for = PPSP! [Yunfei] Okay. =20 =20 Editorial Comments: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 8) Section 1 (and elsewhere) The first paragraph reference to "[Cisco]" does not have a = hyper-link in the HTML view. Probably because a space is missing = between the reference and the previous word. The same problem occurs for = numerous other references throughout the document. =20 [Yunfei]I'll check the whole reference for the hyper-link issue. 9) Section 2 - The word "exchange" is spelled incorrectly in the = definition of "Swarm" - In the last sentence in the definition of "tracker" the = word "logic" should be changed to "logical" - The definition of "VoD" is not very clear and should = be re-worded. (In contrast, the "Live Streaming" definition was much clearer.) [Yunfei]I'll update the text. =20 =20 =20 /Akbar =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Martin Stiemerling Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 9:26 AM To: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until August 15th =20 Dear all, =20 We start a 2 weeks Working Group Last Call (WGLC) for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt, as agreed during the PPSP session at the IETF#81 meeting. =20 Please review the draft and send your comments to the PPSP = list. Any type of review is appreciated, even it is saying only "I have = read the draft and it is ok". =20 However, a thorough review is required by a number of PPSP WG = members (which is YOU!). =20 =20 The WGLC starts right now and will end August 14th, 6pm PDT. =20 The draft is accessible in text, pdf, or html from this URL http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02 =20 Martin =20 =20 martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu =20 NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe = Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC526A.8E112D77 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Yunfei,

 

 

Thanks for your quick responses.  Please see inline for my extra = input on the open issues (i.e. points 3 and 4).  Otherwise, I am = okay with all your responses on all the other points.  Finally, I = would like to say the authors did a good job on the document, and the = quality of the document was good from my point of = view.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Akbar

 

 

From:= = zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
Sent: = Wednesday, August 03, 2011 10:55 PM
To: Rahman, Akbar; Martin = Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txtstarting today until August = 15th

 

= Hi Akbar,

=    Thanks for your careful review. Please see inline for the = reply.

 

= BR

= Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-08-04

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= =A3=BA Rahman, = Akbar

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1= =BC=E4=A3=BA = 2011-08-04 05:43:32

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB= =A3=BA Martin = Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA= =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA= Re: = [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txtstarting today = until August 15th

 

Hi,

 =

 =

I =  reviewed  the  PPSP  problem  statement =  and  have  the  following =  comments:

 =

Technical =  Comments:

=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

=

 =

1) =  To  be  more  balanced,  the  Intro =  (section  1,  paragraph  2)  should =  also

point =  out  that  P2P  approach  requires  more =  resources  and =  computational

power =  on  the  client  (when  compared  to =  Client-Server  architecture), =  as

well =  as  a  lot  of  clients  to =  participate  in  the  P2P  network  for =  the

network =  to  be  efficient.

 =

= [Yunfei] Okay. I'll add this in the paragraph.=

 =

2) =  In  the  Intro  (Section  1,  paragraph =  3),  it  referred  to  CDN =  vendors

that =  are  starting  to  use  P2P =  technologies.    I  then  tried  to =  find  some

more =  information  about  this  trend  on  the =  first  reference  (Akamai).   =  I

found =  the  following =  article

article =  they  concluded  that  Akamai  was  in =  fact  NOT  following  the =  P2P

model =  (as  they  have  discontinued  their  Red =  Swoosh  P2P  approach).    So =  my

question =  to  the  authors  is  whether  they =  are  sure  that  this  is  still =  a

valid =  trend  (i.e.  of  CDN  vendors  starting =  to  use  P2P  technologies)?   =  If

you =  are  sure  that  this  trend  is =  valid  maybe  you  can  put  some =  more

(better) =  references  for =  this.

 =

= [Yunfei]Okay. I just talked with some CDN vendors that verifies this = trend. But need some =

= time to find published evidence.=

 =

3) =  In  Section  3.1,  I  did  not =  understand  the  following  key =  phrases:

- =  "ISPs  are  witnessing  a  big =  traffic  tension  on  their  backbone =  and

inter-netwo= rking  ports".   =  

- =  "the  variation  in  different  P2P =  streaming  systems  mainly  lies  in =  how

the =  chunks  are  scheduled  to  transfer =  rather  than  how  the =  chunks

availabilit= y  information  is =  exchanged"

 =

Can =  you  please  re-write  them  to  be =  more  clearer  and =  explicit?

 =

= [Yunfei] Can you clarify your questions on the first = sentence?=

= Regarding the second sentence, the basic idea is that different P2P = streaming=

= systems compete on scheduling algorithms, which is independent of how = the peers exchange chunk availability. =

= In other words, different systems can have quite different scheuling = algorithms with s= ame= peer protocol.=

 =

 

*** Akbar: On the first point, I do not understand what = =A1=B0inter-networking ports=A1=B1 mean.  This is not a common = term.

  On the second point, your explanation is good.  Perhaps = you can re-word the original wording with the explanation you gave = above.

 

 =

4) =  In  Section  3.2:

- =  The  title  is  not  clear  (e.g. =  "interactionies"  is  not  a  valid =  English

word)<= /o:p>

- =  The  first  paragraph,  seems  to  imply =  that  CCN  approach  will  use  P2P. =    I

have =  been  reading  CCN  papers  for  a =  while  and  I  never  reached =  this

conclusion.=    Can  you  explain  how  you  drew =  this  conclusion?

= [Yunfei] Oops. It should be "interactions". =

= Actually the reference of using CCN is not to say that = =

= CCN approach will use P2P, rather the logic is as follows:=

= CCN/DONA->content centric network trend->p2p streaming accounts a = lot in centent based networks.=

= There is no direct relationship betwwen CCN and P2P streaming.If this is = not clear in the text, I can simply delete=

= "CCN" in the description.=

 =

 

 

 **** Akbar: Okay.  Then I recommend you = delete CCN from the description as otherwise it is too = confusing

 

 

 =

5)  I =  understand  and  agree  on  the  general =  problem  identified  in =  Section

3.4. =    However  the  terminology  of =  "daemon"  seems  particular  to =  Unix,  and

makes =  a  lot  of  SW  design  assumptions. =    Also,  the  focus  on =  wireless

terminals =  seems  to  overlap  with  the  problem =  identified  in  Section =  3.3.

 =

= [Yunfei]I'll merge the two parts and replace the ambiguous = terminology.=

 =

 =

6) =  In  Sections  3.1,  3.2,  and  3.4 =  there  should  be  a  short =  concluding

paragraph =  as  in  section =  3.3.

 =

 =

7) =  In  Section  4,  the  2nd  paragraph =  was  too  long  and  needs  to  be =  broken

up =  to  multiple  paragraphs  to  make  it =  readable.    Otherwise,  I  found =  the

rest =  of  the  section  to  be  clear  and =  a  good  definition  for =  PPSP!

= [Yunfei] Okay.=

 =

 =

Editorial =  Comments:

=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 =

8) =  Section  1  (and =  elsewhere)

  =    The  first  paragraph  reference  to =  "[Cisco]"  does  not  have  a =  hyper-link

in =  the  HTML  view.    Probably  because =  a  space  is  missing  between =  the

reference =  and  the  previous  word.    The =  same  problem  occurs  for =  numerous

other =  references  throughout  the =  document.

 =

= [Yunfei]I'll check the whole reference for the hyper-link = issue.=

9) =  Section  2

  =    -  The  word  "exchange"  is =  spelled  incorrectly  in  the  definition =  of

"Swarm= "

  =    -  In  the  last  sentence  in =  the  definition  of  "tracker"  the =  word

"logic= "  should  be  changed  to =  "logical"

  =    -  The  definition  of  "VoD" =  is  not  very  clear  and  should =  be  re-worded.

(In =  contrast,  the  "Live  Streaming" =  definition  was  much =  clearer.)

= [Yunfei]I'll update the text.=

 =

 =

 =

/Akbar=

 =

 =

-----Origin= al  Message-----

From: =  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] =  On  Behalf  Of

Martin =  Stiemerling

Sent: =  Monday,  August  01,  2011  9:26 =  AM

To: =  ppsp@ietf.org

Subject: =  [ppsp]  WGLC  for =  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt

starting =  today  until  August =  15th

 =

Dear =  all,

 =

We =  start  a  2  weeks  Working  Group =  Last  Call  (WGLC) =  for

draft-ietf-= ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt,  as  agreed  during =  the  PPSP

session =  at  the  IETF#81 =  meeting.

 =

Please =  review  the  draft  and  send  your =  comments  to  the  PPSP  list. =  Any

type =  of  review  is  appreciated,  even  it =  is  saying  only  "I  have  read =  the

draft =  and  it  is  ok". =  

However, =  a  thorough  review  is  required  by =  a  number  of  PPSP  WG =  members

(which =  is  YOU!).  

 =

The =  WGLC  starts  right  now  and  will =  end  August  14th,  6pm =  PDT.

 =

The =  draft  is  accessible  in  text,  pdf, =  or  html  from  this =  URL

 =

  =  Martin

 =

 =

martin.stie= merling@neclab.eu

 =

NEC =  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research =  Division  NEC  Europe  Limited =  |

Registered =  Office:  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road, =  London  W3  6BL =  |

Registered =  in  England  2832014 =  

 =

 =

___________= ____________________________________

ppsp =  mailing  list

ppsp@ietf.o= rg

https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

___________= ____________________________________

ppsp =  mailing  list

ppsp@ietf.o= rg

https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

------_=_NextPart_001_01CC526A.8E112D77-- From a.bakker@vu.nl Thu Aug 4 00:23:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D2611E8089 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 00:23:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.188, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uY+0x6xOGk-Q for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 00:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8219C11E80AA for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 00:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB011B.vu.local (130.37.236.65) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:23:25 +0200 Received: from [130.37.193.73] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:23:40 +0200 Message-ID: <4E3A48FD.3060302@cs.vu.nl> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:23:41 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Subject: [ppsp] Comments on draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 07:23:32 -0000 Hi all here are my comments on v3 of the requirements document: * PPSP.REQ-8: I propose to rephrase this such that the protocols MUST be able to provide a specified QoS, as Johan Pouwelse also suggested, rather than requiring a mechanism to convey the QoS. * PPSP.TP.REQ-6: IMHO we should allow for two types of trackers: simple and smart. For simple trackers it will be sufficient to require that peers report (e.g. periodically) to the tracker to show they still are in the swarm (so the tracker will not give out addresses of peers that left), without information about what chunks they have. Requirements for simple trackers are mandatory. Smart trackers may use extra information from peers to steer peer selection based on network and peer conditions. Smart trackers would be optional in PPSP, and peers would only need to send the extra required info, such as their chunk availability, when a tracker is smart and needs it. If there is a need for trackers to be used as monitoring facilities by service operators, we should define mandatory information that a peer should send to the trackers for this purpose (e.g. its progress). In other words, let's define minimal tracker functionality and allow for extensions. * p.9 The part about CHUNK AVAILABILITY DIGEST I propose be rewritten into a requirement that chunk availability MUST be as expressed as compactly as possible. * p.9 States that "The data transport mechanism and transmission control are out of scope". I propose to rephrase this to fit with the PPSP charter that says "The first task for this WG will be to decide which signaling and media transfer protocols will be used. The WG will consider existing protocols and, if needed, identify potential extensions to these protocols." I.e. it puts extensions of transmission protocols into the PPSP WG's scope. * PPSP.PP.REQ-1+2+4: I propose to allow more explicitly for a push-based model, where peers advocate their own chunk availability proactively, and state that the peer protocol MUST implement either pull-based, push-based or both. PPSP.PP.REQ-3: I propose to rephrase this to something like "Peers MAY use the streaming content availability request message to solicit an additional list of peers to that received from the tracker - with the same swarm ID. The resulting reply message MUST contain only the addresses of peers that have explicitly indicated they are part of the swarm, verifiable by the receiver. This means, for example, that the addresses are in some sort of swarm-membership certificates self-signed with a peer's public key. This explicit membership requirement also holds for any push-based peer-address exchanges in the protocol. Peers MUST not be allowed to send a list of arbitrary IP addresses+ports. Otherwise, if they are malicious they can trick other peers into connecting to arbirary hosts. So this hearsay mechanism would provide a DoS attack vector." * p. 10: Paragraph on CHUNK AVAILABILITY may be removed if compact representation is made a requirement, see above. * PPSP.PP.REQ-6: Is phrased ambiguously at present IMHO. When read as "The peers MUST implement the peer protocol for chunk [availability] requests and responses among the peers before the streaming content is transmitted." it seems self-evident, one cannot request a chunk if one doesn't know what chunks the requestee has. Hence the requirement seems superfluous. * PPSP.SEC.REQ-9: I propose to remove the part that requires reporting receiving bad content to the tracker. Reporting to the tracker would allow for false reporting by malicious peers and arbitrating these reports is very complex. Typos/phrasing: p. 4 "instance messaging" -> "instant messaging" "one to one", "one to many" -> "one-to-one", "one-to-many" p. 5 "request other peers for content" -> "request content from other peers" p. 7 "can refer the ID for the peer" -> "can refer to the peer by ID" p. 7 "Especially In provisioning" -> "Especially in provisioning" CU, Arno From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Aug 4 01:19:49 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B65E921F8B5F for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 01:19:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.177, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rxw1+sbLsrRg for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 01:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635B921F8A7B for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 01:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14340A2BC; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:20:00 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0993A429; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:19:57 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.0.97]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011080416194648-12832 ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:19:46 +0800 Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:19:34 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Rahman, Akbar" References: <201108041054464022940@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <201108041619037800901@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-04 16:19:46, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-04 16:19:57 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon452815065573_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18302.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No--42.232-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--42.232-7.0-31-10;No--42.232-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txtstarting today until August 15th X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 08:19:49 -0000 --=====003_Dragon452815065573_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Akbar,
  Your suggest= ions are=20 quite good.I'll refect these revisions in the updated version.=20 Thanks.
 
BR
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei=
2011-08-04
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Rahman,=20 Akbar
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= =A3=BA=20 2011-08-04 13:51:40
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA=20 zhangyunfei
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling;=20 ppsp@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: Re: [ppsp] WGLC=20 for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txtstarting today until August=20 15th
 

Hi=20 Yunfei,

 

 

Thanks=20 for your quick responses.  Please see inline for my extra input on the= open=20 issues (i.e. points 3 and 4).  Otherwise, I am okay with all your resp= onses=20 on all the other points.  Finally, I would like to say the authors did= a=20 good job on the document, and the quality of the document was good from my = point=20 of view.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Akbar

 

 

From:<= /B> zhangyunfei = [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 03,= 2011=20 10:55 PM
To: Rahman, Akbar; Martin Stiemerling;=20 ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for=20 draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txtstarting today until August=20 15th

 

Hi=20 Akbar,=

  =20 Thanks for your careful review. Please see inline for the reply.=

 =

BR=

Yunfei=

 =

zhangyunfei

2011-08-04=

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Rahman,=20 Akbar=

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA=20 2011-08-04 05:43:32=

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin=20 Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org=

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] = WGLC=20 for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txtstarting today until August=20 15th=

 =

Hi,

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

I  revi= ewed=20  the  PPSP  problem  statement  and  have=20  the  following  comments:

 <= /o:p>

Technical=20  Comments:

=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 <= /o:p>

1)  To =  be  more  balanced,  the  Intro  (section=20  1,  paragraph  2)  should=20  also

point  = out=20  that  P2P  approach  requires  more  resourc= es=20  and  computational

power  = on=20  the  client  (when  compared  to  Client-Ser= ver=20  architecture),  as

well  a= s=20  a  lot  of  clients  to  participate  i= n=20  the  P2P  network  for=20  the

network &nbs= p;to=20  be  efficient.

 <= /o:p>

[Yunfei]=20 Okay. I'll add this in the paragraph.<= /SPAN>

 <= /o:p>

2)  In =  the  Intro  (Section  1,  paragraph  3), &nb= sp;it=20  referred  to  CDN  vendors

that  a= re=20  starting  to  use  P2P  technologies.   &nbs= p;I=20  then  tried  to  find=20  some

more=20  information  about  this  trend  on  the=20  first  reference  (Akamai).  =20  I

found  = the=20  following  article

http://gi= gaom.com/video/whatever-happened-to-red-swoosh/.=20    In  this

article &nbs= p;they=20  concluded  that  Akamai  was  in  fact  = ;NOT=20  following  the  P2P

model  = (as=20  they  have  discontinued  their  Red  Swoosh= =20  P2P  approach).    So  my

question &nb= sp;to=20  the  authors  is  whether  they  are  s= ure=20  that  this  is  still  a

valid  = trend=20  (i.e.  of  CDN  vendors  starting  to  = use=20  P2P  technologies)?    If

you  ar= e=20  sure  that  this  trend  is  valid  may= be=20  you  can  put  some  more

(better)=20  references  for  this.

 <= /o:p>

[Yunfei]Okay.=20 I just talked with some CDN vendors that verifies this trend. But need some= =20 <= /SPAN>

time=20 to find published evidence.<= /SPAN>

 <= /o:p>

3)  In =  Section  3.1,  I  did  not  understand  = ;the=20  following  key  phrases:

-  "ISP= s=20  are  witnessing  a  big  traffic  tension=20  on  their  backbone  and

inter-networ= king=20  ports".    

-  "the= =20  variation  in  different  P2P  streaming  sy= stems=20  mainly  lies  in  how

the  ch= unks=20  are  scheduled  to  transfer  rather  than=20  how  the  chunks

availability= =20  information  is  exchanged"

 <= /o:p>

Can  yo= u=20  please  re-write  them  to  be  more=20  clearer  and  explicit?

 <= /o:p>

[Yunfei]=20 Can you clarify your questions on the first sentence?<= /SPAN>

Regarding=20 the second sentence, the basic idea is that different P2P streaming<= SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><= /SPAN>

systems=20 compete on scheduling algorithms, which is independent of how the peers exc= hange=20 chunk availability. <= /SPAN>

In=20 other words, different systems can have quite different scheuling algorithm= s=20 with = same peer=20 protocol.<= /SPAN>

 <= /o:p>

 

***=20 Akbar: On the first point, I do not understand what =A1=B0inter-networking = ports=A1=B1=20 mean.  This is not a common term.

 =20 On the second point, your explanation is good.  Perhaps you can re-wor= d the=20 original wording with the explanation you gave above.

 

 <= /o:p>

4)  In =  Section  3.2:

-  The =  title  is  not  clear  (e.g.  "interactionie= s"=20  is  not  a  valid  English

<= /DIV>

word)

-  The =  first  paragraph,  seems  to  imply  that=20  CCN  approach  will  use  P2P.  =20  I

have  b= een=20  reading  CCN  papers  for  a  while  an= d=20  I  never  reached  this

conclusion. =  =20  Can  you  explain  how  you  drew  this= =20  conclusion?

[Yunfei]=20 Oops. It should be "interactions". <= /SPAN>

Actually=20 the reference of using CCN is not to say that <= /SPAN>

CCN=20 approach will use P2P, rather the logic is as follows:<= /SPAN>

CCN/DONA->content=20 centric network trend->p2p streaming accounts a lot in centent based=20 networks.<= /SPAN>

There=20 is no direct relationship betwwen CCN and P2P streaming.If this is not clea= r in=20 the text, I can simply delete<= /SPAN>

"CCN"=20 in the description.<= /SPAN>

 <= /o:p>

 

 

 **** Akbar: Okay.  Then I recommend you delet= e CCN=20 from the description as otherwise it is too=20 confusing

 

 

 <= /o:p>

5)  I=20  understand  and  agree  on  the  general=20  problem  identified  in=20  Section

3.4.   =  However  the  terminology  of  "daemon"  see= ms=20  particular  to  Unix,  and

makes  = a=20  lot  of  SW  design  assumptions.    Al= so,=20  the  focus  on  wireless

terminals=20  seems  to  overlap  with  the  problem=20  identified  in  Section  3.3.

 <= /o:p>

[Yunfei]I'll=20 merge the two parts and replace the ambiguous terminology.<= /SPAN>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

6)  In =  Sections  3.1,  3.2,  and  3.4  there=20  should  be  a  short=20  concluding

paragraph &n= bsp;as=20  in  section  3.3.

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

7)  In =  Section  4,  the  2nd  paragraph  was  = too=20  long  and  needs  to  be=20  broken

up  to =  multiple  paragraphs  to  make  it  readable= .=20    Otherwise,  I  found=20  the

rest  o= f=20  the  section  to  be  clear  and  a=20  good  definition  for  PPSP!

[Yunfei]=20 Okay.<= /SPAN>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

Editorial=20  Comments:

=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 <= /o:p>

8)  Sec= tion=20  1  (and  elsewhere)

   = ;=20  The  first  paragraph  reference  to  "[Cisc= o]"=20  does  not  have  a=20  hyper-link

in  the= =20  HTML  view.    Probably  because  a  sp= ace=20  is  missing  between  the

reference &n= bsp;and=20  the  previous  word.    The  same  prob= lem=20  occurs  for  numerous

other=20  references  throughout  the=20  document.

 <= /o:p>

[Yunfei]I'll=20 check the whole reference for the hyper-link issue.<= /SPAN>

9)  Sec= tion=20  2

   = ;=20  -  The  word  "exchange"  is  spelled=20  incorrectly  in  the  definition=20  of

"Swarm"=

   = ;=20  -  In  the  last  sentence  in  the=20  definition  of  "tracker"  the=20  word

"logic"=20  should  be  changed  to=20  "logical"

   = ;=20  -  The  definition  of  "VoD"  is  not =  very  clear  and  should  be=20  re-worded.

(In  co= ntrast,=20  the  "Live  Streaming"  definition  was  muc= h=20  clearer.)

[Yunfei]I'll=20 update the text.<= /SPAN>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

/Akbar<= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

-----Origina= l=20  Message-----

From:=20  ppsp-bounces@ietf.org  [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]  On=20  Behalf  Of

Martin=20  Stiemerling

Sent:  = Monday,=20  August  01,  2011  9:26=20  AM

To:=20  ppsp@ietf.org

Subject:=20  [ppsp]  WGLC  for=20  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt

starting=20  today  until  August  15th

 <= /o:p>

Dear=20  all,

 <= /o:p>

We  sta= rt=20  a  2  weeks  Working  Group  Last  Call= =20  (WGLC)  for

draft-ietf-p= psp-problem-statement-02.txt,=20  as  agreed  during  the=20  PPSP

session &nbs= p;at=20  the  IETF#81  meeting.

 <= /o:p>

Please  = ;review=20  the  draft  and  send  your  comments  = to=20  the  PPSP  list.  Any

type  o= f=20  review  is  appreciated,  even  it  is=20  saying  only  "I  have  read=20  the

draft  = and=20  it  is  ok".  

However, &nb= sp;a=20  thorough  review  is  required  by  a=20  number  of  PPSP  WG=20  members

(which  = ;is=20  YOU!).  

 <= /o:p>

The  WG= LC=20  starts  right  now  and  will  end  Aug= ust=20  14th,  6pm  PDT.

 <= /o:p>

The  dr= aft=20  is  accessible  in  text,  pdf,  or  ht= ml=20  from  this  URL

ht= tp://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02

 <= /o:p>

 =20  Martin

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

martin.stiem= erling@neclab.eu

 <= /o:p>

NEC=20  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research=20  Division  NEC  Europe  Limited=20  |

Registered=20  Office:  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,=20  London  W3  6BL  |

Registered &= nbsp;in=20  England  2832014  

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F

ppsp  m= ailing=20  list

ppsp@ietf.or= g

https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F

ppsp  m= ailing=20  list

ppsp@ietf.or= g

https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

--=====003_Dragon452815065573_=====-- From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Thu Aug 4 04:51:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A688D21F8B39 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 04:51:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.53 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.069, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I+tjG-jpCQO1 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 04:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFF2921F8B37 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 04:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p74BpDqK020220 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:51:13 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC047.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.32.93]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p74Bp9aO001829; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:51:12 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by DEMUEXC047.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:51:05 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:51:03 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until August 15th Thread-Index: AcxQTcfw39L91KdRR/anqXle3vccpwCNq/jA References: From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext Martin Stiemerling" , "zhangyunfei" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2011 11:51:05.0603 (UTC) FILETIME=[CAB35D30:01CC529C] Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until August 15th X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 11:51:17 -0000 My review comments for Problem Statement Draft: In the draft, you mentioned certain peers, e.g. mobile terminals, not able of willing to provide content to other peers. For this purpose, it would be good to introduce another term "client".=20 5.2. CDN supporting P2P streaming "Also it can talk with peers with HTTP if it has complete copy of the requested file." What is the purpose of this restriction? What do you mean with file? Chunk? And what is the difference to the peer protocol in this case? Can you download chunk information, if there is no complete copy in case of usage of peer protocol? Proposal (deleting the second part): "Also it can talk with peers with HTTP." 5.3 PPSP Supporting cross-screen streaming in heterogeneous environment "With PPSP Peers can identify the types of networks, ...." Change to: "With PPSP Peers can identify the types of access networks, ...." 5.4 Supporting P2P streaming in cellular mobile network. "In a provincial network of China Mobile, P2P has accounted for more than 30 percentage of the traffic, ranked second except HTTP." What do you mean with ranked second except HTTP? I thought, HTTP is used for p2p traffic as well? 6.1 Tracker Protocol Existing Text: "Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to the trackers by sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. Distributed trackers deployment may alleviate the problem. On the other hand, malicious peers may report fake information (e.g., cheating trackers and other peers by claiming itself owning some un- existing data). So it may be optional to realize authentication to the peers before accepting the request for the tracker. But this may add up the tracker's workload. In the above discussion tracker is trustful. Things are worse when the malicious peer acts as part of the distributed trackers. The malicious acting tracker may reply the peers with fake peer-list. Peers may find they cannot find desired data with the fake peer-list." Proposal for new text: "Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to the trackers by sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. Distributed trackers deployment may alleviate the problem. For protection against denial of service attacks, standard security methods can be used. Malicious peers may report fake information on behalf of other peers. This can be avoided with peer authentication. Malicious peers may report fake information about available content. For this purpose, malicious peers can be reported to the tracker. Malicious tracker, especially distributed version, can be very harmful. The malicious acting tracker may reply instead of the regular tracker (man in the middle attack). To avoid this tracker authentication could Be used. The malicious acting tracker may reply the peers with fake peer-list. Peers may find they cannot find desired data with the fake peer-list." 6.2. Peer Protocol Existing Text: "Similar to the behaviour in the tracker-peer interaction, malicious peers may also create fake information on chunk availability and exchange it with other peers. Some techniques to check the data integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for detecting the data." Proposal for new text: "Similar to the behaviour in the tracker-peer interaction, malicious peers may also create fake information on chunk availability and exchange it with other peers. Some techniques to check the data integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for detecting the attack." Best Regards Christian Schmidt -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Martin Stiemerling Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 3:26 PM To: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until August 15th Dear all, We start a 2 weeks Working Group Last Call (WGLC) for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt, as agreed during the PPSP session at the IETF#81 meeting. Please review the draft and send your comments to the PPSP list. Any type of review is appreciated, even it is saying only "I have read the draft and it is ok".=20 However, a thorough review is required by a number of PPSP WG members (which is YOU!).=20 The WGLC starts right now and will end August 14th, 6pm PDT. The draft is accessible in text, pdf, or html from this URL http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02 Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Thu Aug 4 05:07:15 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F3A21F8B03 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 05:07:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.472, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qDfrnXESEVJM for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 05:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0230221F8B00 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 05:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C68252800032B for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:07:28 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2rvTPYJjKmXB for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:07:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5B828000198 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:07:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.20]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:07:23 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft meeting minutes IETF#81 PPSP session Thread-Index: AcxSnqaA1yDVGBLbRsCKncI2O0bhAw== Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:07:23 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ppsp] Draft meeting minutes IETF#81 PPSP session X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 12:07:15 -0000 Dear all, Please find the draft meeting minutes of the IETF#81 PPSP session here: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/ppsp.txt Please send any comment or correction to the PPSP list until Monday August = 15th. Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Re= gistered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in = England 2832014=20 From a.bakker@vu.nl Thu Aug 4 05:13:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862EB21F8B1A for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 05:13:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.273 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.273 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.232, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GdGO7QUSvHcC for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 05:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B6121F8B11 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 05:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB011B.vu.local (130.37.236.65) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:13:42 +0200 Received: from [130.37.193.73] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:13:59 +0200 Message-ID: <4E3A8D08.7090100@cs.vu.nl> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:14:00 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Subject: Re: [ppsp] Draft meeting minutes IETF#81 PPSP session X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 12:13:47 -0000 On 04/08/2011 14:07, Martin Stiemerling wrote: > Dear all, > > Please find the draft meeting minutes of the IETF#81 PPSP session here: > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/ppsp.txt > > Please send any comment or correction to the PPSP list until Monday August 15th. > "Yunfei Zhang: I really like this proposal, for me it is not important, where this will be done." Wasn't this Enrico Marocco? Regards, Arno From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Aug 4 19:03:33 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93FCA11E809B for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:03:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.008 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.008 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.165, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SyElV+pRchar for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5196D11E807C for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05295A6C9; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:03:42 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF81A6C8; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:03:41 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.0.16]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011080510033873-3695 ; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:03:38 +0800 Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:03:25 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" , "ext Martin Stiemerling" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: Message-ID: <201108051003248610779@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-05 10:03:39, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-05 10:03:41, Serialize complete at 2011-08-05 10:03:41 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon122271324265_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18304.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--39.920-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--39.920-7.0-31-10;No--39.920-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until Augus X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , 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imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 789FD11E807C for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2BA0A471; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:06:18 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8154A698; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:06:18 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.0.16]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011080510061628-3815 ; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:06:16 +0800 Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:06:03 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "arno@cs.vu.nl" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <4E3A8D08.7090100@cs.vu.nl> Message-ID: <201108051006033928556@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-05 10:06:16, Serialize 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dy7vkHgKW9K3 for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 02:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06F921F8B33 for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 02:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p759a0Tj014054 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:36:00 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC048.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.32.94]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p759ZwWD009227; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:35:59 +0200 Received: from CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.192.12]) by DEMUEXC048.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:35:44 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 17:35:10 +0800 Message-ID: <0724290E59B7CE4E97C50698CEFC0BF076A440@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> In-reply-to: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until August 15th thread-index: AcxQTcfw39L91KdRR/anqXle3vccpwC0ykFQ References: From: "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" To: "ext Martin Stiemerling" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Aug 2011 09:35:44.0676 (UTC) FILETIME=[0CA9FE40:01CC5353] Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until August 15th X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2011 09:35:52 -0000 Hi=A3=AC Review from my side. 1) In Section 1, the last sentence:=20 ".... or updating /integrating existing cache/CDN/routers to support P2P streaming delivery." IMHO, We normally mention router as a layer 3 device, which forward IP = packets according to IP protocol and routing algorism. So, here, do you = mean some content router works beyond layer 3 or you do mean to update = the network layer router? =20 2) in Section 2, the definition of swarm: "Swarm: A swarm refers to a group of clients (i.e., peers) who exchang data to distribute the same content (e.g. video/audio program, digital file, etc) at a given time." Firstly, you use the term "clients" may not be accurate. As it also may = be cache server, right? Why not use the term peer directly? Moreover, spelling error on "exchange" 3) in Section 2, the definition of tracker: "Tracker: A tracker refers to a directory server which maintains a list of peers storing chunks for a specific channel or streaming = file, and answers queries from peers for peer lists. The tracker is a logic component which can be centralized or distributed." Here, I think, the queries to tracker can also from a pure client. So, = modified text: "...., and answers queries from peers or clients for peer = lists....." 4) In Section 3.2, " However, there are substantial obstacles for CDN nodes supporting proprietary P2P streaming protocols [HTPT]. ..." [HTPT] appears here, but in Reference section, it's [HPTP].=20 5) In Section 3.2=20 " Note again that we just focus on the standard data availability information interaction between tracker (maybe hosted by the source provider) and CDN nodes, among CDN nodes " should be: "........ CDN nodes, and among CDN nodes" 6) In Section 4, the last paragraph=20 " What's more, existing protocols should be investigated and evaluated for being reused or extended as the proposed protocols, e.g., HTTP. Considering that there can be a large number of peers, the protocol should consider some lightweight (possibly binary) encoding." Do you suggest the binary encoding here? The HTTP was given as an example of current protocol that PPSP can = reused or extend from (which is text-based), but the last sentence said = PPSP SHOULD consider binary encoding, which is confusing. 7) Section 5.2 "Also it can talk with peers with HTTP ....." Do you mean the client/server way between the user 3 and CDN Node3? If = So, you'd better use "end users" to take place of "peers", as in this = scenario it's not the peer of CDN node anymore. As peer protocol may also be based on HTTP protocol, difference should = be clarified between the Http-based peer protocol and traditional HTTP = protocol. How about: "Also it can talk with end users with traditional HTTP ...." Best Regards, Xiao Lin -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Martin Stiemerling Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 9:26 PM To: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt = starting today until August 15th Dear all, We start a 2 weeks Working Group Last Call (WGLC) for = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt, as agreed during the PPSP = session at the IETF#81 meeting. Please review the draft and send your comments to the PPSP list. Any = type of review is appreciated, even it is saying only "I have read the = draft and it is ok".=20 However, a thorough review is required by a number of PPSP WG members = (which is YOU!).=20 The WGLC starts right now and will end August 14th, 6pm PDT. The draft is accessible in text, pdf, or html from this URL http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02 Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | = Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | = Registered in England 2832014=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Fri Aug 5 19:00:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792DA21F8841 for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 19:00:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.727 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.727 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.154, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cPRJm6M34idC for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 19:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B059721F8834 for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2011 19:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B07A724; Sat, 6 Aug 2011 10:00:37 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1434AA706; Sat, 6 Aug 2011 10:00:37 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011080610002944-687 ; Sat, 6 Aug 2011 10:00:29 +0800 Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 10:00:13 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" , "ext Martin Stiemerling" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <0724290E59B7CE4E97C50698CEFC0BF076A440@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> Message-ID: <201108061000083474209@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-06 10:00:34, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-06 10:00:36, Serialize complete at 2011-08-06 10:00:36 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon005620247052_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18306.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--31.251-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--31.251-7.0-31-10;No--31.251-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txtstarting today until August 15th X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2011 02:00:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon005620247052_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgTGluLA0KICAgVGhhbmtzIGZvciB5b3VyIHJldmlldy4gUGxlYXNlIHNlZSBpbmxpbmUgZm9y IHRoZSByZXBseS4NCg0KQlINCll1bmZlaQ0KDQoNCg0KDQp6aGFuZ3l1bmZlaQ0KMjAxMS0wOC0w NQ0KDQoNCg0Kt6K8/sjLo7ogWGlhbywgTGluIChOU04gLSBDTi9CZWlqaW5nKQ0Kt6LLzcqxvOSj uiAyMDExLTA4LTA1IDE3OjM2OjE5DQrK1bz+yMujuiBleHQgTWFydGluIFN0aWVtZXJsaW5nOyBw cHNwQGlldGYub3JnDQqzrcvNo7ogDQrW98zio7ogUmU6IFtwcHNwXSBXR0xDIGZvciBkcmFmdC1p ZXRmLXBwc3AtcHJvYmxlbS1zdGF0ZW1lbnQtMDIudHh0c3RhcnRpbmcgdG9kYXkgdW50aWwgQXVn dXN0IDE1dGgNCg0KSGmjrA0KDQpSZXZpZXcgIGZyb20gIG15ICBzaWRlLg0KDQoxKSAgSW4gIFNl Y3Rpb24gIDEsICB0aGUgIGxhc3QgIHNlbnRlbmNlOiAgDQoiLi4uLiAgb3IgIHVwZGF0aW5nICAv 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXzwvRElWPg0KPERJVj5wcHNwICZuYnNwO21h aWxpbmcgJm5ic3A7bGlzdDwvRElWPg0KPERJVj5wcHNwQGlldGYub3JnPC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPmh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcHBzcDwvRElWPjwvRk9OVD48L0RJ Vj48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K --=====003_Dragon005620247052_=====-- From zongning@huawei.com Sun Aug 7 23:45:40 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D87D21F8799 for ; Sun, 7 Aug 2011 23:45:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.811 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.811 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.073, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) 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ppsp@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 14:46:01 +0800 (CST) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 14:45:57 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: <4E3A48FD.3060302@cs.vu.nl> To: arno@cs.vu.nl, ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <003701cc5596$d4c18750$7e4495f0$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-cn Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcxSd7IhXiX630IgQ76+akY5oXHXUwDG78Ag References: <4E3A48FD.3060302@cs.vu.nl> Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIENvbW1lbnRzIG9uIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtcHBz?= =?gb2312?b?cC1yZXFzLTAz?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 06:45:40 -0000 Hi, Arno, Please see inline. -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Arno Bakker =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C24=C8=D5 15:24 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: [ppsp] Comments on draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03 Hi all here are my comments on v3 of the requirements document: * PPSP.REQ-8: I propose to rephrase this such that the protocols MUST be able to provide a specified QoS, as Johan Pouwelse also suggested, rather than requiring a mechanism to convey the QoS. [ZN]: I agree with your proposal. * PPSP.TP.REQ-6: IMHO we should allow for two types of trackers: simple and smart. For simple trackers it will be sufficient to require that peers report (e.g. periodically) to the tracker to show they still are in the swarm (so the tracker will not give out addresses of peers that left), without information about what chunks they have. Requirements for simple trackers are mandatory. Smart trackers may use extra information from peers to steer peer selection based on network and peer conditions. Smart trackers would be optional in PPSP, and peers would only need to send the extra required info, such as their chunk availability, when a tracker is smart and needs it. [ZN]: I agree with your proposal. If there is a need for trackers to be used as monitoring facilities by service operators, we should define mandatory information that a peer should send to the trackers for this purpose (e.g. its progress). In other words, let's define minimal tracker functionality and allow for extensions. * p.9 The part about CHUNK AVAILABILITY DIGEST I propose be rewritten into a requirement that chunk availability MUST be as expressed as compactly as possible. [ZN]: I agree with your proposal. * p.9 States that "The data transport mechanism and transmission control are out of scope". I propose to rephrase this to fit with the PPSP charter that says "The first task for this WG will be to decide which signaling and media transfer protocols will be used. The WG will consider existing protocols and, if needed, identify potential extensions to these protocols." I.e. it puts extensions of transmission protocols into the PPSP WG's scope. [ZN]: OK. * PPSP.PP.REQ-1+2+4: I propose to allow more explicitly for a push-based model, where peers advocate their own chunk availability proactively, and state that the peer protocol MUST implement either pull-based, push-based or both. [ZN]: We have paragraph on page 10 to describe the two modes of pull & = push information among peers. And I don't think it is necessary to state these modes in a formal requirement. PPSP.PP.REQ-3: I propose to rephrase this to something like "Peers MAY use the streaming content availability request message to solicit an additional list of peers to that received from the tracker - with the same swarm ID. The resulting reply message MUST contain only the addresses of peers that have explicitly indicated they are part of the swarm, verifiable by the receiver. This means, for example, that the addresses are in some sort of swarm-membership certificates self-signed with a peer's public key. This explicit membership requirement also holds for any push-based peer-address exchanges in the protocol. [ZN] I agree with your proposal. Peers MUST not be allowed to send a list of arbitrary IP addresses+ports. Otherwise, if they are malicious they can trick other peers into connecting to arbirary hosts. So this hearsay mechanism would provide a DoS attack vector." * p. 10: Paragraph on CHUNK AVAILABILITY may be removed if compact representation is made a requirement, see above. * PPSP.PP.REQ-6: Is phrased ambiguously at present IMHO. When read as "The peers MUST implement the peer protocol for chunk [availability] requests and responses among the peers before the streaming content is transmitted." it seems self-evident, one cannot request a chunk if one doesn't know what chunks the requestee has. Hence the requirement seems superfluous. [ZN] This is not about chunk availability, but requesting the chunk = itself. For example, peer A send this message to peer B to request a specific = chunk, as well as its streaming capability information. This message is more like a session negotiation/description message = (e.g. RTSP, SIP, etc). * PPSP.SEC.REQ-9: I propose to remove the part that requires reporting receiving bad content to the tracker. Reporting to the tracker would allow for false reporting by malicious peers and arbitrating these reports is very complex. [ZN] Yunfei and Lingli Deng, what's your opinions on this? Typos/phrasing: p. 4 "instance messaging" -> "instant messaging" "one to one", "one to many" -> "one-to-one", "one-to-many" p. 5 "request other peers for content" -> "request content from other=20 peers" p. 7 "can refer the ID for the peer" -> "can refer to the peer by ID" p. 7 "Especially In provisioning" -> "Especially in provisioning" [ZN] Thanks for identifying them. Good reading! CU, Arno _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From peer2peer@gmail.com Mon Aug 8 15:21:08 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17F321F8C71 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2011 15:21:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.409 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.409 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.190, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bU+qJqisGdND for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2011 15:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f45.google.com (mail-pz0-f45.google.com [209.85.210.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 881BF21F8C70 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2011 15:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33so2529096pzk.18 for ; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 15:21:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4CkW7xxWk3/K92SCjfDyNeo1xLRYBfpVieQ/5sM/vik=; b=og8lE9rd26WskjjZ1aWk2C5K+tX2i9H4RVEWwhFxeH5q+JBRHbo0tIylLTmvp0DdXu qAqClbHHaLxaJ87e4sFxRXJYQwB9YgkS3jkU/aipJ4ZaEHCzmu6DJGWf+aikrO7yf8qe dO+wDZF4UZF759ScZOl9Lmy34KBTOcj4kpnas= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.200.16 with SMTP id x16mr745507wff.256.1312842094388; Mon, 08 Aug 2011 15:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.210.11 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Aug 2011 15:21:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 00:21:34 +0200 Message-ID: From: Johan Pouwelse To: ppsp@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP NAT traversal draft updated X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:21:09 -0000 On 12 July 2011 03:14, wrote: > The updated NAT traversal draft can be accessed at > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ppsp-nat-traversal-02 > Comments are welcome. Dear Lichun, During the last IETF meeting we briefly shared our comments on this draft: 1) In general your work is a very thorough piece of work documenting utilizing the well known NAT approaches. 2) Please also add the recent advances and list the "connected neighbor" approach, which does not require servers. State-of-the-art in academic research in NAT traversal omitted from "draft-li-ppsp-nat-traversal-02" : Usurp - http://www.springerlink.com/content/mg78hth7316t1027/ Nylon - http://www.computer.org/portal/web/csdl/doi/10.1109/ICDCS.2009.44 Gozar - http://www.springerlink.com/content/j6418877h7205q7m/ http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eggert-middlebox-control-survey-01 https://fit.nokia.com/lars/papers/2010-imc-hgw-study.pdf In 2005 we started working on the approach which: 1) do not require any server 2) supports coordination peers which are NATted 3) utilize the "connected neighbor" approach. Our deployed Open Source code achieved in the wild a UDP connection success rate of over 80%. Scientific publication: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D2008828 Report: http://pds.twi.tudelft.nl/reports/2010/PDS-2010-007.pdf 2005 design report: http://www.tribler.org/trac/raw-attachment/wiki/NATtraversal/remko_1035363_= Onderzoekstaak_-_Final_Version.pdf Measurements show that this light-weight approach is less complex and reduces overhead, without significant performance loss. Could you possible add this option to your draft or refer to this alternative light-weight approach? Greetings, johan. On 12 July 2011 03:14, wrote: > > Hi, all > > The updated NAT traversal draft can be accessed at > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ppsp-nat-traversal-02 > The major change of this version is detailing extensions to PPSP. > > Comments are welcome. > > > > BR > Lichun > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > ZTE=A0Information=A0Security=A0Notice:=A0The=A0information=A0contained=A0= in=A0this=A0mail=A0is=A0solely=A0property=A0of=A0the=A0sender's=A0organizat= ion.=A0This=A0mail=A0communication=A0is=A0confidential.=A0Recipients=A0name= d=A0above=A0are=A0obligated=A0to=A0maintain=A0secrecy=A0and=A0are=A0not=A0p= ermitted=A0to=A0disclose=A0the=A0contents=A0of=A0this=A0communication=A0to= =A0others. > This=A0email=A0and=A0any=A0files=A0transmitted=A0with=A0it=A0are=A0confid= ential=A0and=A0intended=A0solely=A0for=A0the=A0use=A0of=A0the=A0individual= =A0or=A0entity=A0to=A0whom=A0they=A0are=A0addressed.=A0If=A0you=A0have=A0re= ceived=A0this=A0email=A0in=A0error=A0please=A0notify=A0the=A0originator=A0o= f=A0the=A0message.=A0Any=A0views=A0expressed=A0in=A0this=A0message=A0are=A0= those=A0of=A0the=A0individual=A0sender. > This=A0message=A0has=A0been=A0scanned=A0for=A0viruses=A0and=A0Spam=A0by= =A0ZTE=A0Anti-Spam=A0system. > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > From internet-drafts@ietf.org Fri Aug 12 05:50:01 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5A521F87C9; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:50:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.563 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.563 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.036, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MwypOWbJ3Sih; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2958921F8788; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:50:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.57 Message-ID: <20110812125001.11295.77167.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:50:01 -0700 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:52:41 -0700 Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:50:01 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Peer to Peer Streaming Protocol Worki= ng Group of the IETF. Title : Problem Statement of P2P Streaming Protocol (PPSP) Author(s) : Yunfei Zhang Ning Zong Gonzalo Camarillo Richard Yang Filename : draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2011-08-12 P2P streaming systems show more and more popularity in current Internet with proprietary protocols. This document identifies problems of the proprietary protocols, proposes standard signaling protocols called PPSP and discusses the scope and use cases of PPSP. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03.txt From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Fri Aug 12 05:57:04 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C12121F8551 for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:57:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: <0htdK6LZzw2J> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "MIME-Version" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_18=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_19=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0htdK6LZzw2J for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E3521F8540 for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61E77A6D2; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:57:34 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59239A6C2; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:57:34 +0800 (CST) To: ppsp@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:57:27 +0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Lotus Domino Web Server Release 6.5.6 March 06, 2007 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-12 20:57:34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18318.007 X-TM-AS-Result: No--7.976-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--7.976-7.0-31-10;No--7.976-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: [ppsp] ppsp problem statement draft updated X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:57:04 -0000 Hi all, We have updated the Problem statement draft after receiving the WGLC rev= iews. Thanks Akbar, Christian and Lin for your careful review.All the revie= w comments are replied in this version. The major changes include: 1)Client/server aspects: a) In the introduction part, adding that P2P approach needs more resourc= es and computation as well as number of clients to particpate. b) Adding the notion of "client" in section 2 and using it in mobile ter= minals without providing p2p capability in section 5. 2)CDN apsects: a) Consolidating CDN vendors including Akmai and Chinacache to use P2P s= treaming tech in their systems with better references in section 1. 3) Resource constraint equipments: a) Reword the text with clearer explaination of the requirements and sen= arios, replace the term "daemon" by "background applications", reduce the o= verlap with section 3.3. 4) Definition in section2: "VoD":Rewording "Client":New added. And stress it's a speical kind of peer. "Swarm": deleting "client". 5) HTTP issue: a)rewording to reduce the ambiguous between "http" and "binary encoding= ".(section 4) b)rewording for the CDN-client/peer interaction using http(section 5). c) deleting the http traffic description in cellular network to avoid c= onfusion(section 3.3). 6=A3=A9Security issue in section 6: a) Rewording the tracker protocol secuirty threat with better categories. b) Rewording the text in peer protocol. 7=A3=A9DeMiscellaneous a)Deleting router as possible PPSP usage in text(section1). b) Reorgnize section 4 to broke up the paragraph. c) delete CCN citation(section 3) d) Rewording section 3.1. e) Adding "access" in section5.3. f) Adding "and" in section 3.2 g)Replacing "peer"with "end user"in section5.2 8) Reference hyperlink:Added 9)Typo issue: a) exchang->exchange(section2). b)htpt->hptp(section 3.2) c) logic->logical(section 2) Any comments and suggestions are highly appreciated. BR yunfei 2011-08-12= From lilichun@gmail.com Sat Aug 13 21:59:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815D521F8610 for ; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 21:59:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7zcMhpZcEv36 for ; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 21:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f44.google.com (mail-bw0-f44.google.com [209.85.214.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B35921F8569 for ; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 21:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bkar4 with SMTP id r4so2915004bka.31 for ; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 21:59:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Qz9QedFAPeKIkMXVsubeBY/fN1/P5bRbwMZ5CWCF7PE=; b=O/2WJhHbg1foakmCJmiVWgwFTD3VQngGjx6sAYtB42dxKbmvG+vawqPyfcxXhM+oYJ uySxR3x/rZ42HdDw/Nk1FskGUe3ug+1m6RAeDsDIdVaYCHqpfNI6MuhNjhPnIz8LtuTY MVr+fHz0B9kTefppXq9RRzPQPPjMXmXh4x2ks= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.205.64.79 with SMTP id xh15mr31670bkb.325.1313297995097; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 21:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.37.208 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 21:59:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:59:55 +0800 Message-ID: From: lichun li To: Johan Pouwelse Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP NAT traversal draft updated X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 04:59:16 -0000 Hi, Johan Thank you for your information and suggestion. I will take some time to read these documents. Other than using dedicated STUN/TURN server, the PPSP NAT traversal draft also proposes to use peer (STUN peer, TURN peer and proxy peer) to provide NAT traversal services. I think that's one kind of "connected neighbor" approach? I think light-weight approach is a good idea. As long as the download rate and QOE is satisfied, P2P streaming system doesn't require any two peers can build connection. Current NAT traversal solutions in the draft all use ICE, which may be a little complicated. I am considering adding a simple solution not using ICE. What do you think? BR Lichun On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 6:21 AM, Johan Pouwelse wrote: > On 12 July 2011 03:14, =A0 wrote: >> The updated NAT traversal draft can be accessed at >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ppsp-nat-traversal-02 >> Comments are welcome. > > Dear Lichun, > During the last IETF meeting we briefly shared our comments on this draft= : > =A01) In general your work is a very thorough piece of work documenting > utilizing the well known NAT approaches. > =A02) Please also add the recent advances and list the "connected > neighbor" approach, which does not require servers. > > State-of-the-art in academic research in NAT traversal omitted from > "draft-li-ppsp-nat-traversal-02" : > Usurp - http://www.springerlink.com/content/mg78hth7316t1027/ > Nylon - http://www.computer.org/portal/web/csdl/doi/10.1109/ICDCS.2009.44 > Gozar - http://www.springerlink.com/content/j6418877h7205q7m/ > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eggert-middlebox-control-survey-01 > https://fit.nokia.com/lars/papers/2010-imc-hgw-study.pdf > > In 2005 we started working on the approach which: > =A01) do not require any server > =A02) supports coordination peers which are NATted > =A03) utilize the "connected neighbor" approach. > > Our deployed Open Source code achieved in the wild a UDP connection > success rate of over 80%. > Scientific publication: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D2008828 > Report: http://pds.twi.tudelft.nl/reports/2010/PDS-2010-007.pdf > 2005 design report: > http://www.tribler.org/trac/raw-attachment/wiki/NATtraversal/remko_103536= 3_Onderzoekstaak_-_Final_Version.pdf > > Measurements show that this light-weight approach is less complex and > reduces overhead, without significant performance loss. Could you > possible add this option to your draft or refer to this alternative > light-weight approach? > > Greetings, johan. > > On 12 July 2011 03:14, =A0 wrote: >> >> Hi, all >> >> The updated NAT traversal draft can be accessed at >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ppsp-nat-traversal-02 >> The major change of this version is detailing extensions to PPSP. >> >> Comments are welcome. >> >> >> >> BR >> Lichun >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> ZTE=A0Information=A0Security=A0Notice:=A0The=A0information=A0contained= =A0in=A0this=A0mail=A0is=A0solely=A0property=A0of=A0the=A0sender's=A0organi= zation.=A0This=A0mail=A0communication=A0is=A0confidential.=A0Recipients=A0n= amed=A0above=A0are=A0obligated=A0to=A0maintain=A0secrecy=A0and=A0are=A0not= =A0permitted=A0to=A0disclose=A0the=A0contents=A0of=A0this=A0communication= =A0to=A0others. >> This=A0email=A0and=A0any=A0files=A0transmitted=A0with=A0it=A0are=A0confi= dential=A0and=A0intended=A0solely=A0for=A0the=A0use=A0of=A0the=A0individual= =A0or=A0entity=A0to=A0whom=A0they=A0are=A0addressed.=A0If=A0you=A0have=A0re= ceived=A0this=A0email=A0in=A0error=A0please=A0notify=A0the=A0originator=A0o= f=A0the=A0message.=A0Any=A0views=A0expressed=A0in=A0this=A0message=A0are=A0= those=A0of=A0the=A0individual=A0sender. >> This=A0message=A0has=A0been=A0scanned=A0for=A0viruses=A0and=A0Spam=A0by= =A0ZTE=A0Anti-Spam=A0system. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> >> > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > From peer2peer@gmail.com Sun Aug 14 15:57:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06FE21F855D for ; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.114, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u01dI+6ezery for ; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f45.google.com (mail-pz0-f45.google.com [209.85.210.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE10B21F8541 for ; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33so3947520pzk.18 for ; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:57:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TPPtT6ruOPwdW+QI79zEY0du5ewP/m2hD27OdxF3Gi0=; b=Dn/3+BXK6m4um1/RIDuFOZp3/W79/n6Xxu5aK9wF2Vj5h5d/is/fu1ryCQvhqYTevx Nv2bkYHyhtReo+iRKxO+ojbDZJly/ISYKhQkgAE/J1wnEZc3HQ+07nnG53Uk8nNlWXk7 OMZNzc6A5DDUZK0fVAYhBb7q0T5KhL5SKxR4U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.21.16 with SMTP id y16mr1640031wfi.28.1313362678957; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.101.14 with HTTP; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:57:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:57:58 -0400 Message-ID: From: Johan Pouwelse To: lichun li Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP NAT traversal draft updated X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 22:57:18 -0000 > I think light-weight approach is a good idea. As long as the download > rate and QOE is satisfied, P2P streaming system doesn't require any > two peers can build connection. Current NAT traversal solutions in the > draft all use ICE, which may be a little complicated. I am considering > adding a simple solution not using ICE. What do you think? Excellent. Yes, including both the standard ICE solution plus a "light weight" option sounds like a solid step forward; especially for future (LTE) mobile phones support... -johan On 14 August 2011 00:59, lichun li wrote: > Hi, Johan > > Thank you for your information and suggestion. I will take some time > to read these documents. > > Other than using dedicated STUN/TURN server, the PPSP NAT traversal > draft also proposes to use peer (STUN peer, TURN peer and proxy peer) > to provide NAT traversal services. I think that's one kind of > "connected neighbor" approach? > > I think light-weight approach is a good idea. As long as the download > rate and QOE is satisfied, P2P streaming system doesn't require any > two peers can build connection. Current NAT traversal solutions in the > draft all use ICE, which may be a little complicated. I am considering > adding a simple solution not using ICE. What do you think? > > > BR > Lichun > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 6:21 AM, Johan Pouwelse wrot= e: >> On 12 July 2011 03:14, =A0 wrote: >>> The updated NAT traversal draft can be accessed at >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ppsp-nat-traversal-02 >>> Comments are welcome. >> >> Dear Lichun, >> During the last IETF meeting we briefly shared our comments on this draf= t: >> =A01) In general your work is a very thorough piece of work documenting >> utilizing the well known NAT approaches. >> =A02) Please also add the recent advances and list the "connected >> neighbor" approach, which does not require servers. >> >> State-of-the-art in academic research in NAT traversal omitted from >> "draft-li-ppsp-nat-traversal-02" : >> Usurp - http://www.springerlink.com/content/mg78hth7316t1027/ >> Nylon - http://www.computer.org/portal/web/csdl/doi/10.1109/ICDCS.2009.4= 4 >> Gozar - http://www.springerlink.com/content/j6418877h7205q7m/ >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eggert-middlebox-control-survey-01 >> https://fit.nokia.com/lars/papers/2010-imc-hgw-study.pdf >> >> In 2005 we started working on the approach which: >> =A01) do not require any server >> =A02) supports coordination peers which are NATted >> =A03) utilize the "connected neighbor" approach. >> >> Our deployed Open Source code achieved in the wild a UDP connection >> success rate of over 80%. >> Scientific publication: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D2008828 >> Report: http://pds.twi.tudelft.nl/reports/2010/PDS-2010-007.pdf >> 2005 design report: >> http://www.tribler.org/trac/raw-attachment/wiki/NATtraversal/remko_10353= 63_Onderzoekstaak_-_Final_Version.pdf >> >> Measurements show that this light-weight approach is less complex and >> reduces overhead, without significant performance loss. Could you >> possible add this option to your draft or refer to this alternative >> light-weight approach? >> >> Greetings, johan. >> >> On 12 July 2011 03:14, =A0 wrote: >>> >>> Hi, all >>> >>> The updated NAT traversal draft can be accessed at >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ppsp-nat-traversal-02 >>> The major change of this version is detailing extensions to PPSP. >>> >>> Comments are welcome. >>> >>> >>> >>> BR >>> Lichun >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> ZTE=A0Information=A0Security=A0Notice:=A0The=A0information=A0contained= =A0in=A0this=A0mail=A0is=A0solely=A0property=A0of=A0the=A0sender's=A0organi= zation.=A0This=A0mail=A0communication=A0is=A0confidential.=A0Recipients=A0n= amed=A0above=A0are=A0obligated=A0to=A0maintain=A0secrecy=A0and=A0are=A0not= =A0permitted=A0to=A0disclose=A0the=A0contents=A0of=A0this=A0communication= =A0to=A0others. >>> This=A0email=A0and=A0any=A0files=A0transmitted=A0with=A0it=A0are=A0conf= idential=A0and=A0intended=A0solely=A0for=A0the=A0use=A0of=A0the=A0individua= l=A0or=A0entity=A0to=A0whom=A0they=A0are=A0addressed.=A0If=A0you=A0have=A0r= eceived=A0this=A0email=A0in=A0error=A0please=A0notify=A0the=A0originator=A0= of=A0the=A0message.=A0Any=A0views=A0expressed=A0in=A0this=A0message=A0are= =A0those=A0of=A0the=A0individual=A0sender. >>> This=A0message=A0has=A0been=A0scanned=A0for=A0viruses=A0and=A0Spam=A0by= =A0ZTE=A0Anti-Spam=A0system. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ppsp mailing list >>> ppsp@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> > From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Mon Aug 15 06:05:26 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E544221F8BA8 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.746, BAYES_00=-2.599, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EShz5nSf+Lvk for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D45B21F8BA7 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 06:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4808628000330 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:06:10 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ilJ+uKYDKfA for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E01280001AA for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:06:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.20]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:05:44 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 Thread-Index: AcxbL2ozl1KnEkDJT823qEGZydMJlw== Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:05:43 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:05:27 -0000 [Writing not as WG chair, but as individual contributor] Dear all, I have reviewed the draft draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 and did main= ly find editorial issues.=20 Non-Editorials: - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, " With PPSP, P2P cache can detect P2P stream= ing applications much easier without needing to update its library."; It m= ight not be completely obvious to an average reader why a standarizded P2P= protocol would make things easier here. How about adding at the end of thi= s sentence: ", as there is only a single protocol to be detected and not a = potentially unknown set of proprietary P2P protocols".=20 - Section 3.2, 1st paragraph, 1st sentence. I cannot see the relationship b= etween the section's intended scope and DONA or any other content centric n= etworking.=20 - Section 3.2, 3rd paragraph, You lost me with the everything after the fir= st sentence of this paragraph. I don't understand what it is saying or what= it should be saying.=20 - Section 3.3, 1st paragraph, The first sentence about "mobility and wirele= ss are becoming increasingly dominate " is basically reflecting the current= situation, but what is the relationship to the future Internet activities = mentioned there? The mobile and wireless part is already sort of dominant b= y today. - Section 3.4, 2nd paragraph: I know what this paragraph is aiming at, i.e.= , reusing the same library and potentially other optimizations. But it woul= d be better to rephrase the paragraph. E.g., "PPSP can help to reduce the r= esource consumption on resource constraint devices, such as STBs or mobile = phones, by reusing a PPSP base library and ..." - Security section:=20 I'm not sure that the current security section is exactly what we need for = the problem statement. It is on one hand detailed on the threat description= (e.g., "peers may report fake information about available content"), but o= n the other side lacks the description of countermeasures to those threats.= =20 I would propose to rewrite the security section to cover a broader focus on= highlighting certain threats, but letting the fix to those to the particul= ar protocol specifications, i.e., the peer protocol and the tracker protoco= l. I can provide some initial text, if there is an agreement to replace the se= curity section.=20 Editorials (mainly suggestions to improve readability): - General: There are many places where the dots are misplaced, e.g., in - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, " paradigm [Survey].The". This should read "pa= radigm [Survey]. The" (space between dot and The) - Which Internet draft template is being used for this draft? The new templ= ates have the "Abstract" before the part on " Status of this Memo" and " C= opyright Notice".=20 - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, comma missing, replace "like CNN [CNN] PPstream= " with "like CNN [CNN], PPstream" - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, replace "Client-Server" with "client-server". T= he spelling of this is not consistent in the draft. - Section 1, 4th paragraph, replace "Almost all these systems" with " Almos= t all of these systems". - Section 1, 4th paragraph, replace "P2P streaming, the open protocols will= dynamically reduce " with "P2P streaming, open protocols may reduce " - Section 2, paragraph starting with "PPSP", replace "The abbreviation of P= 2P streaming protocols" with "The abbreviation of Peer-to-Peer Streaming Pr= otocols" - Section 2, paragraph starting with "Tracker", replace "list of peers stor= ing chunks for a specific channel or streaming file" with "list of peers wh= ich participate in a specific video channel or in the distribution of a str= eaming file".=20 - Section 2, paragraph starting with "Tracker", replace "from peers for pee= r lists" with "from peers with a list of candidate peers". - Section 3, 1st paragraph, replace "The problems brought by proprietary" w= ith "The problems imposed by proprietary" - Section 3.1, title of this section, replace "Difficulties for ISP in depl= oying P2P caches" with "Difficulties for ISPs in deploying P2P caches" - Section 3.1, 1st paragraph, replace "P2P cache is used to reduce the" wi= th "P2P caches are used to reduce the" or "P2P caching is used to reduce = the" - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, replace "With PPSP, P2P cache can detect" wit= h "With PPSP, a P2P cache can detect" - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, the last sentence, there are two commas betwe= en "tracker/peer protocol" and "which is easier..." - Section 3.2, 2nd paragraph, replace "Similar to the cache case, this" wit= h "Similar to the caching case in Section 3.1, this" - Section 3.3, 1st paragraph, last sentence, the dot at the end is missing.= =20 - Section 3.3, 2nd paragraph, page 10, replace "trackers and peers need mor= e information" with "trackers and peers may need more information" - Section 3.3, 2nd paragraph, page 10, there is terminology collision, as s= erving gateway is translated to GGSN. A change of a SGSN will not be notice= d by the terminal. Moving to a new GGSN might be. However, moving to a new = GGSN might be experience like any other event where the IP address changes.= =20 - Section 3.4, 1st paragraph, replace "In other word" with "In other words" - Section 3.4, 1st paragraph, replace "multiple programs in one resource co= nstraint" with "multiple programs in a resource constraint" - Section 4, 1st paragraph: replace full 1st paragraph with "The objective of the PPSP working group is to design a unified peer- to-pe= er streaming protocol (PPSP) to address the problems discussed in the prece= ding sections." - Section 4, 3rd paragraph: replace "and then retrieve for wanted streaming= " with "and then retrieve the wanted streaming" - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace " topology e.g., a tree." With " topolo= gy, e.g., a tree." - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace "(maybe with recommended order)" with "= (potentially in a recommended order)" - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace "Few practical systems" with "Few comme= rcially deployed" - Section 4, 5th paragraph: what is "unfounded data"? - Section 4, 6th paragraph: move this paragraph to page 12 before paragraph= starting with "In detail," - Section 4, last paragraph, page 12: I'm not sure that we still need this = paragraph. Can we remove it? - Section 5, 1st paragraph, there is a leftover: " "= . - Section 5.2, 1st paragraph, replace "Also it can also talk" with "It can = also communicate" - Section 5.3, 2nd paragraph, replace " With PPSP Peers can identify the ty= pes of access networks, their load/congestion information" with " With PPSP= , peers may be able to identify the type of access networks, average load".= Do not include congestion information, as this information is anyhow too v= olatile to be tracked by some entity of the peer network, other than the pe= ers which are anyhow directly communicating with each other. - Section 5.3, 2nd paragraph, replace "be selected, which will lead to" wit= h "be selected, which may lead to" - Section 5.5, 1st paragraph, replace "section3" with "Section 3" - Section 5.5, 1st paragraph, replace "nodes in the network" with "nodes at= the network" - Reference section: This section does not follow the style of references a= s used in the RFC series and needs to be updated. Kind regards Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Re= gistered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in = England 2832014=20 From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Tue Aug 16 00:55:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AEF221F8BDB for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 00:55:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.624 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.624 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.351, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aiqiZA3+kT1l for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 00:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B6621F8BD8 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 00:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7556A407; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:56:35 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA0E4A406; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:56:35 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011081615563151-12502 ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:56:31 +0800 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:56:02 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Martin Stiemerling" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: Message-ID: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-16 15:56:33, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-16 15:56:35, Serialize complete at 2011-08-16 15:56:35 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon656364014421_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18326.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No--30.561-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--30.561-7.0-31-10;No--30.561-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 07:55:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon656364014421_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" 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23:59:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.508 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.508 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.561, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS=2.077] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HewkvMroBHL2; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 23:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f45.google.com (mail-pz0-f45.google.com [209.85.210.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FCC11E8092; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 23:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33so945798pzk.18 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 00:00:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=NMrfhnUWX6pTgRJ5uly4+tu/wRDqqzcWy4ECtSu2qcE=; b=J3gbFhaGai/jG+DnJq2lHbr1ICVSwk8Fij/omhOaDdou5OF48/iPreUgucsbsIdWpY PiNKT2OD8Ry9JMsw7ph513rXtGxDo3IgafX0BQi5c5JnNsv4iH9OAv78YQOCXQG5QNsA MKjkm2/d7+hmrYU0DviRmbl4Or9gu3tz1g/ko= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.14.12 with SMTP id 12mr344967wfn.90.1313564415919; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 00:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.63.5 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 00:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:00:15 +0800 Message-ID: From: 2011 p2pnve To: tccc@lists.cs.columbia.edu, p2p@ogf.org, ppsp@ietf.org, p2psip@ietf.org, sam@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd20d6666868b04aaae0c4b Subject: [ppsp] =?utf-8?b?W0NGUF1bUDJQTuKAi1ZFIDIwMTFdW0RFQUTigItMSU5FIEVY?= =?utf-8?q?TENSION=3A_AUGUST_20=2C_2011=5D_THE_5TH_INTERNATIO?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=8BNAL_WORKSHOP_ON_PEER-TO-PE=E2=80=8BER_NETWORKED?= =?utf-8?q?_VIRTUAL_ENVIRONMEN=E2=80=8BTS?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 06:59:27 -0000 --000e0cd20d6666868b04aaae0c4b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 [Apologies if you receive multiple copies of this message] * Deadline extended to August 25, 2011 * CALL FOR PAPERS ======================================================================== The 5th International Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Networked Virtual Environments (P2P-NVE 2011) in conjunction with The 17th International Conference on Parallel and Distributed Systems (ICPADS 2011) December 7-9, 2011 Tainan, Taiwan http://acnlab.csie.ncu.edu.tw/P2PNVE2011/ ======================================================================== PURPOSE AND SCOPE Peer-to-peer (P2P) is a computing paradigm based on self-organizing network overlays, in which participating entities play symmetric roles as both servers and clients for accomplish common goals. Compared with the traditional client/server (C/S) paradigm, the P2P paradigm is not vulnerable to a single point of failure and has better scalability and lower installation and management cost. It has been successfully applied to many applications, such as data sharing, storage sharing, bandwidth sharing, collaborative computation, and so on. Many research studies have been devoted to developing efficient, flexible, and secure P2P systems. They call for a workshop to provide a forum for researchers to exchange their ideas about state-of-the-art P2P technologies. Recently, some studies try to apply the P2P paradigm to network virtual environments (NVEs), which is also known as distributed virtual environment (DVEs) or collaborative virtual environment (CVEs), to increase NVE scalability and to reduce NVE management and deployment costs. An NVE is a computer-generated virtual world where multiple users can assume virtual representatives (or avatars) to concurrently interact with each other via networked links. Examples of NVEs include early DARPA SIMNET and DIS systems as well as currently booming Massively Multiplayer Online Games (MMOGs). Typical examples of studies on P2P NVEs are P2P voice chatting, P2P 3D streaming, P2P game state management, and so on. In spite of the success of the studies, we need more studies about state consistency control, persistent data storage, multimedia data dissemination, cheat-prevention, topology mismatching, and virtual world interoperability to construct NVEs of better performance. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th International Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Networked Virtual Environments were held in conjunction with the 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th International Conference on Parallel and Distributed Systems in 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 respectively. To adhere to the theme of P2P-NVE workshops, the theme of P2P-NVE 2011 is to solicit original and previously unpublished new ideas on general P2P schemes as well as on the design and realization of P2P NVEs. The workshop aims to facilitate discussions and idea exchanges by both academics and practitioners. Authors are invited to submit an electronic version of original, unpublished manuscripts, not to exceed 8 double-columned, single-spaced pages, to the workshop. Submitted papers should be in accordance with IEEE Computer Society guidelines, and will be refereed by reviewers in terms of relevance, originality, contribution, correctness, and presentation. All Accepted papers will be published by IEEE Press (indexed by EI) and will be included in IEEE Xplore. Topics of interest include, but are not limited to: * P2P systems and infrastructures * Applications of P2P systems * Performance evaluation of P2P systems * Trust and security issues in P2P systems * Network support for P2P systems * Fault tolerance in P2P systems * Data structures for P2P systems * Efficient P2P resource lookup and sharing * Distributed Hash Tables (DHTs) and related issues * Solutions to topology mismatching for P2P overlays * P2P overlays for NVEs * P2P NVE multicast * P2P NVE interoperability * P2P NVE content distribution * P2P NVE 3D streaming * P2P NVE voice communications * P2P NVE architecture designs * P2P NVE prototypes * P2P NVE consistency control * Persistent storage for P2P NVEs * Security and cheat-prevention mechanisms for P2P games * P2P control for mobile NVEs * P2P NVE applications on mobile devices ========================================== IMPORTANT DATES Submission: August 25, 2011 Notification: September 25, 2011 Camera ready: October 7, 2011 =========================================== PAPER SUBMISSION Authors are invited to submit an electronic version of original, unpublished manuscripts, not to exceed 8 double-columned, single-spaced pages, to the workshop. Submitted papers should be in PDF format in accordance with IEEE Computer Society guidelines, and will be refereed by reviewers in terms of originality, contribution, correctness, and presentation. --000e0cd20d6666868b04aaae0c4b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

[Apologies if you receive multiple copies of thi= s message]

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* Deadline extended to August 25, 2011 *

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CALL FOR PAPERS

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
The 5th International Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Networked Virtual Environmen= ts (P2P-NVE 2011)

in conjunction with

The 17th International = Conference on Parallel and Distributed Systems (ICPADS 2011)

Decembe= r 7-9, 2011
Tainan, Taiwan

http://acnlab.csie.ncu.edu.tw/P2PNVE2011/
=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
PURPOSE AND= SCOPE

Peer-to-peer (P2P) is a computing paradigm based on self-organizing net= work overlays, in which participating entities play symmetric roles as both= servers and clients for accomplish common goals. Compared with the traditi= onal client/server (C/S) paradigm, the P2P paradigm is not vulnerable to a = single point of failure and has better scalability and lower installation a= nd management cost. It has been successfully applied to many applications, = such as data sharing, storage sharing, bandwidth sharing, collaborative com= putation, and so on. Many research studies have been devoted to developing = efficient, flexible, and secure P2P systems. They call for a workshop to pr= ovide a forum for researchers to exchange their ideas about state-of-the-ar= t P2P technologies. Recently, some studies try to apply the P2P paradigm to= network virtual environments (NVEs), which is also known as distributed vi= rtual environment (DVEs) or collaborative virtual environment (CVEs), to in= crease NVE scalability and to reduce NVE management and deployment costs. A= n NVE is a computer-generated virtual world where multiple users can assume= virtual representatives (or avatars) to concurrently interact with each ot= her via networked links. Examples of NVEs include early DARPA SIMNET and DI= S systems as well as currently booming Massively Multiplayer Online Games (= MMOGs). Typical examples of studies on P2P NVEs are P2P voice chatting, P2P= 3D streaming, P2P game state management, and so on. In spite of the succes= s of the studies, we need more studies about state consistency control, per= sistent data storage, multimedia data dissemination, cheat-prevention, topo= logy mismatching, and virtual world interoperability to construct NVEs of b= etter performance.

The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th International Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Networ= ked Virtual Environments were held in conjunction with the 13th, 14th, 15th= and 16th International Conference on Parallel and Distributed Systems in 2= 007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 respectively. To adhere to the theme of P2P-NVE w= orkshops, the theme of P2P-NVE 2011 is to solicit original and previously u= npublished new ideas on general P2P schemes as well as on the design and re= alization of P2P NVEs. The workshop aims to facilitate discussions and idea= exchanges by both academics and practitioners. Authors are invited to subm= it an electronic version of original, unpublished manuscripts, not to excee= d 8 double-columned, single-spaced pages, to the workshop. Submitted papers= should be in accordance with IEEE Computer Society guidelines, and will be= refereed by reviewers in terms of relevance, originality, contribution, co= rrectness, and presentation. All Accepted papers will be published by IEEE = Press (indexed by EI) and will be included in IEEE Xplore.


Topics of interest include, but are not limited to:


* = P2P systems and infrastructures
* Applications of P2P systems
* P= erformance evaluation of P2P systems
* Trust and security issues in P2= P systems
* Network support for P2P systems
* Fault tolerance in P2P systems* Data structures for P2P systems
* Efficient P2P resource lookup = and sharing
* Distributed Hash Tables (DHTs) and related issues
* Solutions to topology mismatching for P2P overlays
* P2P overlays = for NVEs
* P2P NVE multicast
* P2P NVE interoperability
* P2= P NVE content distribution
* P2P NVE 3D streaming
* P2P NVE voice= communications
* P2P NVE architecture designs
* P2P NVE prototypes
* P2P NVE c= onsistency control
* Persistent storage for P2P NVEs
* Security a= nd cheat-prevention mechanisms for P2P games
* P2P control for mobile = NVEs
* P2P NVE applications on mobile devices

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
IMPORTANT DATES

Submission: = August 25, 2011
Notification: = September 25, 2011
Camera ready: October 7, 2011
=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

PAPER SUBMISSION
Authors are invited to submit an electronic version of original, unpublis= hed manuscripts, not to exceed 8 double-columned, single-spaced pages, to t= he workshop. Submitted papers should be in PDF format in accordance with IE= EE Computer Society guidelines, and will be refereed by reviewers in terms = of originality, contribution, correctness, and presentation.

--000e0cd20d6666868b04aaae0c4b-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Mon Aug 22 05:23:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15DB21F8B2C for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 05:23:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.164 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.164 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.435, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7IL3-TK9-V-p for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 05:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEAE721F8B26 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 05:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D99D62800032C for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:24:33 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N-6sc7sSVHAl for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:24:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from METHONE.office.hd (Methone.office.hd [192.168.24.54]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCADC2800018F for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:24:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Polydeuces.office.hd ([169.254.3.194]) by METHONE.office.hd ([192.168.24.54]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:24:28 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: Martin Stiemerling , "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until August 15th Thread-Index: AcxQTcfw39L91KdRR/anqXle3vccpwQeE7CA Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:24:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt starting today until August 15th X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:23:30 -0000 Dear all, The WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement concluded successfully on 08= /14, i.e., the draft is ready for the next steps, after the remaining edits= are applied.=20 There have been a number of reviews with comments and the draft got updated= in the meantime. There is still some text missing for the security section= which will be provided soon. Thanks for all reviews. Martin > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Martin Stiemerling > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 3:26 PM > To: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txt startin= g > today until August 15th >=20 > Dear all, >=20 > We start a 2 weeks Working Group Last Call (WGLC) for draft-ietf-ppsp- > problem-statement-02.txt, as agreed during the PPSP session at the IETF#8= 1 > meeting. >=20 > Please review the draft and send your comments to the PPSP list. Any type= of > review is appreciated, even it is saying only "I have read the draft and = it is ok". > However, a thorough review is required by a number of PPSP WG members > (which is YOU!). >=20 > The WGLC starts right now and will end August 14th, 6pm PDT. >=20 > The draft is accessible in text, pdf, or html from this URL > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02 >=20 > Martin >=20 >=20 > martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu >=20 > NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | > Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered= in > England 2832014 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Mon Aug 22 05:40:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B7421F8A7A for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 05:40:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.629 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.629 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.134, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3VkYaQFIY3ja for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 05:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B1B21F8A67 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 05:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B9D2800032C; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:41:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l+2VOa-4Peam; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:41:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from METHONE.office.hd (Methone.office.hd [192.168.24.54]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F262800018F; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:41:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Polydeuces.office.hd ([169.254.3.194]) by METHONE.office.hd ([192.168.24.54]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:41:37 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: zhangyunfei , "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 Thread-Index: AcxbL2ozl1KnEkDJT823qEGZydMJlwAuqUCxATZ/SiA= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:41:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Hi Yunfei,

 <= /p>

Here is the text proposal= for the security section. It is fairly short but should suffice the consid= erations for the problem statement. I have included the =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to the scope; this is i= ncluded in the current text. However, it will be necessary to document what= the threat to the content distribution is, e.g., to not forward chunks or = exchange chunks with bogus data; and also to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, etc).

 <= /p>

Here you go:

 <= /p>

6. Security Consideration= s

 <= /p>

This memo discusses the p= roblem statement around a peer-to-peer streaming protocols without specifyi= ng the protocols. The protocol specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP working group.

 <= /p>

The PPSP protocol specifi= cations, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker protocol, will document th= e expected threats and how they will be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and mitigations when combinin= g both protocols in an application. This will include privacy of the users,= protection of the content distribution, but not protection of the content = by Digital Rights Management (DRM).

 <= /p>

  Martin<= /span>

 <= /p>

From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobil= e.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-= 03

 =

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the careful review. Please see inline for the reply= .

BR

Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-08-16

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-15 21:06:14=

=CA=D5=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB= =CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp= -problem-statement-03

 

[Writing  not  as  WG  chair,  but  as &nbs= p;individual  contributor]

 

Dear  all,

 

I  have  reviewed  the  draft  draft-ietf-ppsp-p= roblem-statement-03  and  did  mainly  find  edito= rial  issues.  

 

Non-Editorials:

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  "  =  With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect  = P2P  streaming  applications  much    easier  = ;without  needing  to  update  its  library.";  It  might=  not  be  completely    obvious  to  an=  average  reader  why  a  standarizded  P2P =  protocol  would  make  things  easier  here.=  How  about  adding  at  the  end  of &= nbsp;this  sentence:  ",  as  there  is  = ;only  a  single  protocol  to  be  detected  and  not  = a  potentially  unknown  set  of  proprietary &nbs= p;P2P  protocols".  

 

[Yunfei]Good proposal!

-  Section  3.2,  1st  paragraph,  1st  sen= tence.  I  cannot  see  the  relationship  be= tween  the  section's  intended  scope  and  = DONA  or  any  other  content  centric  networkin= g.  

[Yunfei] Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stre= am content(including using P2P)will account a lot in future network is a trend. But maybe we can replace the trend by actual figures(e= .g, in section1, cisco figures)to avoid the misleading sentence.

-  Section  3.2,  3rd  paragraph,  You  los= t  me  with  the  everything  after  the &nbs= p;first  sentence  of  this  paragraph.  I  d= on't  understand  what  it  is  saying  or  = what  it  should  be  saying.  <= /p>

[Yunfei] The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexi= ty of the case by case adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this part.

-  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  The  fir= st  sentence  about  "mobility  and  wireless=  are  becoming  increasingly  dominate  " &n= bsp;is  basically  reflecting  the  current  situation, =  but  what  is  the  relationship  to  t= he  future  Internet  activities  mentioned  there= ?  The  mobile  and  wireless  part  is  = ;already  sort  of  dominant  by  today.

[Yunfei] Good question. Similar to  section 3.1, rep= lace "trend" by "fact".<= /span>

-  Section  3.4,  2nd  paragraph:  I  know =  what  this  paragraph  is  aiming  at,  = ;i.e.,  reusing  the  same  library  and  pot= entially  other  optimizations.  But  it  would  be &= nbsp;better  to  rephrase  the  paragraph.  E.g., =  "PPSP  can  help  to  reduce  the  = ;resource  consumption  on  resource  constraint  = devices,  such  as  STBs  or  mobile  phones,=  by  reusing  a  PPSP  base  library  and  ..."

[Yunfei] Fine for the change.

 

-  Security  section:  

I'm  not  sure  that  the  current  securit= y  section  is  exactly  what  we  need  = ;for  the  problem  statement.  It  is  on &n= bsp;one  hand  detailed  on  the  threat  description  (e.= g.,  "peers  may  report  fake  information &= nbsp;about  available  content"),  but  on  t= he  other  side  lacks  the  description  of =  countermeasures  to  those  threats.  =

I  would  propose  to  rewrite  the  securi= ty  section  to  cover  a  broader  focus &nb= sp;on  highlighting  certain  threats,  but  letti= ng  the  fix  to  those  to  the  particul= ar  protocol  specifications,  i.e.,  the  peer &n= bsp;protocol  and  the  tracker  protocol.

 

I  can  provide  some  initial  text,  if &= nbsp;there  is  an  agreement  to  replace  t= he  security  section.  

[Yunfei] Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on= broadening the section. And would ask Christian for more comments.

 

Editorials  (mainly  suggestions  to  improve  r= eadability):

-  General:  There  are  many  places  wher= e  the  dots  are  misplaced,  e.g.,  in=

 -  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  " &n= bsp;paradigm  [Survey].The".  This  should  read &= nbsp;"paradigm  [Survey].  The"  (space  betw= een  dot  and  The)

-  Which  Internet  draft  template  is  be= ing  used  for  this  draft?  The  new  = templates  have  the  "Abstract"    befo= re  the  part  on  "  Status  of  this  Memo" &n= bsp;and  "  Copyright  Notice".  <= /span>

-  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  comma  mis= sing,  replace  "like  CNN  [CNN]  PPstream&q= uot;  with  "like  CNN  [CNN],  PPstream"= ;

-  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;Client-Server"  with  "client-server".  = The  spelling  of  this  is  not  consistent =  in  the  draft.

-  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;Almost  all  these  systems"  with  &quo= t;  Almost  all  of  these  systems".

-  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;P2P  streaming,  the  open  protocols  will &= nbsp;dynamically  reduce    "  with  "P2= P  streaming,  open  protocols  may  reduce  "<= /span>

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "PPSP",  replace  "The  abbreviation  of=  P2P  streaming  protocols"  with  "The=  abbreviation  of  Peer-to-Peer  Streaming  Protocols"

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "Tracker",  replace  "list  of  peers &n= bsp;storing  chunks  for  a  specific  channel &nb= sp;or  streaming  file"  with  "list  of  peers  wh= ich  participate  in  a  specific  video  cha= nnel  or  in  the  distribution  of  a  = streaming  file".  

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "Tracker",  replace  "from  peers  for &= nbsp;peer  lists"  with  "from  peers  w= ith  a  list  of  candidate  peers".

-  Section  3,  1st  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;The  problems  brought  by  proprietary" &nbs= p;with  "The  problems  imposed  by  propriet= ary"

-  Section  3.1,  title  of  this  section,=  replace  "Difficulties  for  ISP  in  = deploying  P2P  caches"  with  "Difficulties =  for  ISPs  in  deploying  P2P  caches"

-  Section  3.1,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"P2P    cache  is  used  to  reduce &nb= sp;the"  with  "P2P  caches  are  used &= nbsp;to  reduce  the"  or  "P2P      caching  is  used &= nbsp;to  reduce  the"

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect" =  with  "With  PPSP,  a  P2P  cache  = ;can  detect"

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  the  las= t  sentence,  there  are  two  commas  betwee= n  "tracker/peer  protocol"  and  "which=  is  easier..."

-  Section  3.2,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"Similar  to  the  cache  case,  this" =  with  "Similar  to  the  caching  case =  in  Section  3.1,  this"

-  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  last  se= ntence,  the  dot  at  the  end  is  mis= sing.  

-  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10= ,  replace  "trackers  and  peers  need  = ;more  information"  with  "trackers  and &nb= sp;peers  may  need  more  information"

-  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10= ,  there  is  terminology  collision,  as  se= rving  gateway  is  translated  to  GGSN.  A  change  of  a  SGSN  will  not  be &nb= sp;noticed  by  the  terminal.  Moving  to  a=  new  GGSN  might  be.  However,  moving &nb= sp;to  a  new  GGSN  might  be  experience &n= bsp;like  any  other  event  where  the  IP &= nbsp;address  changes.  

-  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"In  other  word"  with  "In  othe= r  words"

-  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"multiple  programs  in  one  resource  cons= traint"  with  "multiple  programs  in  = a  resource  constraint"

-  Section  4,  1st  paragraph:  replace  f= ull  1st  paragraph  with

"The  objective  of  the  PPSP  working &nb= sp;group  is  to  design  a  unified  peer- &= nbsp;to-peer  streaming  protocol  (PPSP)  to  add= ress  the  problems  discussed  in  the  precedin= g  sections."

-  Section  4,  3rd  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;and  then  retrieve  for  wanted  streaming&q= uot;  with  "and  then  retrieve  the  w= anted  streaming"

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;  topology  e.g.,  a  tree."  With  = ;"  topology,  e.g.,  a  tree."

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;(maybe  with  recommended  order)"  with &nbs= p;"(potentially  in  a  recommended  order)"<= o:p>

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;Few  practical  systems"  with  "Few &nb= sp;commercially  deployed"

-  Section  4,  5th  paragraph:  what  is &= nbsp;"unfounded  data"?

-  Section  4,  6th  paragraph:  move  this=  paragraph  to  page  12  before  paragraph =  starting  with  "In  detail,"

-  Section  4,  last  paragraph,  page  12:=  I'm  not  sure  that  we  still  need =  this  paragraph.  Can  we  remove  it?<= /o:p>

-  Section  5,  1st  paragraph,  there  is =  a  leftover:  "   <Text  for  this &= nbsp;section >".

-  Section  5.2,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"Also  it  can  also  talk"  with  = ;"It  can  also  communicate"

-  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"  With  PPSP  Peers  can  identify  th= e  types  of  access  networks,  their  load/= congestion  information"  with  "  With  PPSP, &nb= sp;peers  may  be  able  to  identify  the &n= bsp;type  of  access  networks,  average  load&quo= t;.  Do  not  include  congestion  information, &n= bsp;as  this  information  is  anyhow  too  v= olatile  to  be  tracked  by  some  entity &n= bsp;of  the  peer  network,  other  than  the  = ;peers  which  are  anyhow  directly  communicatin= g  with  each  other.

-  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"be  selected,  which  will  lead  to" =  with  "be  selected,  which  may  lead =  to"

-  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"section3"  with  "Section  3"

-  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"nodes  in  the  network"  with  "= nodes  at  the  network"

-  Reference  section:  This  section  does &nbs= p;not  follow  the  style  of  references  as=  used  in  the  RFC  series  and  needs=  to  be  updated.

 

[Yunfei]I'll update these editorial issues in new version draf= t.

 

Kind  regards

 

   Martin

 

martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu

 

NEC  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research =  Division  NEC  Europe  Limited  |  Registere= d  Office:  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,  London  W3  6BL  |  Registered  in  En= gland  2832014  

 

 

_______________________________________________

ppsp  mailing  list

ppsp@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

--_000_E84E7B8FF3F2314DA16E48EC89AB49F01CF69BD0Polydeucesoffic_-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Mon Aug 22 07:10:20 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CE921F84F8 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:10:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.425, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FBaKTEsVErTK for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D7621F853E for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02BA28000397 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 16:11:24 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v-EmtIHflhJN for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 16:11:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01B62800032C for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 16:11:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Polydeuces.office.hd ([169.254.3.194]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 15:06:42 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03 starting today until September 5th Thread-Index: AcxgzA4tSkXKRGhvQ2GJIv5Jaqjv0w== Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 13:06:40 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03 starting today until September 5th X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:10:20 -0000 Dear all, We start a 2 weeks Working Group Last Call (WGLC) for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-= 03.txt, as agreed during the PPSP session at the IETF#81 meeting. Please review the draft and send your comments to the PPSP list. Any type o= f review is appreciated, even if it is saying only "I have read the draft a= nd it is ok".=20 However, a thorough review is required by a number of PPSP WG members (whic= h is YOU!).=20 The WGLC starts right now and will end September, 5th 6 pm PDT. The draft is accessible in text, pdf, or html from this URL http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Re= gistered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in = England 2832014 From p2p.nve.2011@gmail.com Mon Aug 22 07:35:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C452D21F8B18; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:35:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BudtRAIVBUss; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f44.google.com (mail-gw0-f44.google.com [74.125.83.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E28721F8B0C; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20so3772706gwb.31 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:36:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=4ety/GhcsbdX3XSi8wc625ym25NBXghXvxhq9D6eUG0=; b=ilaGpaSsOUU9Cp4LrNGWVG5lBDSOKeSC9AHGvrR4HMP5FON17pbn50rZHNzCsMPfbv nvnj10CWPGBDMTuSuDeaWn63mHwqV4wc5jM9HuVfj1EqUcnmvWPVqK8lSGMPQl4TEfNw anqfBVAtAftTEdPCWja6aVVIpMAs/m/PYzU8o= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.51.4 with SMTP id y4mr1642351wfy.107.1314023810349; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.60.11 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 22:36:50 +0800 Message-ID: From: 2011 p2pnve To: tccc@lists.cs.columbia.edu, p2p@ogf.org, p2psip@ietf.org, ppsp@ietf.org, sam@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd20d86713c7104ab1902f6 Subject: [ppsp] [CFP] P2PNVE 2011 [Deadline extended to Aug. 30, 2011 (Firm Deadline)] X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:35:51 -0000 --000e0cd20d86713c7104ab1902f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 [Apologies if you receive multiple copies of this message] * Deadline extended to August 30, 2011 (Firm Deadline)* CALL FOR PAPERS ======================================================================== The 5th International Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Networked Virtual Environments (P2P-NVE 2011) in conjunction with The 17th International Conference on Parallel and Distributed Systems (ICPADS 2011) December 7-9, 2011 Tainan, Taiwan http://acnlab.csie.ncu.edu.tw/P2PNVE2011/ ======================================================================== PURPOSE AND SCOPE Peer-to-peer (P2P) is a computing paradigm based on self-organizing network overlays, in which participating entities play symmetric roles as both servers and clients for accomplish common goals. Compared with the traditional client/server (C/S) paradigm, the P2P paradigm is not vulnerable to a single point of failure and has better scalability and lower installation and management cost. It has been successfully applied to many applications, such as data sharing, storage sharing, bandwidth sharing, collaborative computation, and so on. Many research studies have been devoted to developing efficient, flexible, and secure P2P systems. They call for a workshop to provide a forum for researchers to exchange their ideas about state-of-the-art P2P technologies. Recently, some studies try to apply the P2P paradigm to network virtual environments (NVEs), which is also known as distributed virtual environment (DVEs) or collaborative virtual environment (CVEs), to increase NVE scalability and to reduce NVE management and deployment costs. An NVE is a computer-generated virtual world where multiple users can assume virtual representatives (or avatars) to concurrently interact with each other via networked links. Examples of NVEs include early DARPA SIMNET and DIS systems as well as currently booming Massively Multiplayer Online Games (MMOGs). Typical examples of studies on P2P NVEs are P2P voice chatting, P2P 3D streaming, P2P game state management, and so on. In spite of the success of the studies, we need more studies about state consistency control, persistent data storage, multimedia data dissemination, cheat-prevention, topology mismatching, and virtual world interoperability to construct NVEs of better performance. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th International Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Networked Virtual Environments were held in conjunction with the 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th International Conference on Parallel and Distributed Systems in 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 respectively. To adhere to the theme of P2P-NVE workshops, the theme of P2P-NVE 2011 is to solicit original and previously unpublished new ideas on general P2P schemes as well as on the design and realization of P2P NVEs. The workshop aims to facilitate discussions and idea exchanges by both academics and practitioners. Authors are invited to submit an electronic version of original, unpublished manuscripts, not to exceed 8 double-columned, single-spaced pages, to the workshop. Submitted papers should be in accordance with IEEE Computer Society guidelines, and will be refereed by reviewers in terms of relevance, originality, contribution, correctness, and presentation. All Accepted papers will be published by IEEE Press (indexed by EI) and will be included in IEEE Xplore. Topics of interest include, but are not limited to: * P2P systems and infrastructures * Applications of P2P systems * Performance evaluation of P2P systems * Trust and security issues in P2P systems * Network support for P2P systems * Fault tolerance in P2P systems * Data structures for P2P systems * Efficient P2P resource lookup and sharing * Distributed Hash Tables (DHTs) and related issues * Solutions to topology mismatching for P2P overlays * P2P overlays for NVEs * P2P NVE multicast * P2P NVE interoperability * P2P NVE content distribution * P2P NVE 3D streaming * P2P NVE voice communications * P2P NVE architecture designs * P2P NVE prototypes * P2P NVE consistency control * Persistent storage for P2P NVEs * Security and cheat-prevention mechanisms for P2P games * P2P control for mobile NVEs * P2P NVE applications on mobile devices ========================================== IMPORTANT DATES Submission: August 30, 2011 (Firm Deadline) Notification: September 25, 2011 Camera ready: October 7, 2011 =========================================== PAPER SUBMISSION Authors are invited to submit an electronic version of original, unpublished manuscripts, not to exceed 8 double-columned, single-spaced pages, to the workshop. Submitted papers should be in PDF format in accordance with IEEE Computer Society guidelines, and will be refereed by reviewers in terms of originality, contribution, correctness, and presentation. --000e0cd20d86713c7104ab1902f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=Big5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

[Apologies if you= receive multiple copies of this message]

 

* Deadline extended to August= 30, 2011 (Firm Deadline)*

 

CALL FOR PAPERS

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D
The 5th International Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Networked Vi= rtual Environments (P2P-NVE 2011)

in conjunction with

The 17th International Conference on Parallel and Distributed Systems (ICPA= DS 2011)

December 7-9, 2011
Tainan, Taiwan

http://acnlab.csie.ncu.edu.tw/= P2PNVE2011/
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
PURPO= SE AND SCOPE

Peer-to-peer (P2P) is a computing paradigm based on sel= f-organizing network overlays, in which participating entities play symmetr= ic roles as both servers and clients for accomplish common goals. Compared = with the traditional client/server (C/S) paradigm, the P2P paradigm is not = vulnerable to a single point of failure and has better scalability and lowe= r installation and management cost. It has been successfully applied to man= y applications, such as data sharing, storage sharing, bandwidth sharing, c= ollaborative computation, and so on. Many research studies have been devote= d to developing efficient, flexible, and secure P2P systems. They call for = a workshop to provide a forum for researchers to exchange their ideas about= state-of-the-art P2P technologies. Recently, some studies try to apply the= P2P paradigm to network virtual environments (NVEs), which is also known a= s distributed virtual environment (DVEs) or collaborative virtual environme= nt (CVEs), to increase NVE scalability and to reduce NVE management and dep= loyment costs. An NVE is a computer-generated virtual world where multiple = users can assume virtual representatives (or avatars) to concurrently inter= act with each other via networked links. Examples of NVEs include early DAR= PA SIMNET and DIS systems as well as currently booming Massively Multiplaye= r Online Games (MMOGs). Typical examples of studies on P2P NVEs are P2P voi= ce chatting, P2P 3D streaming, P2P game state management, and so on. In spi= te of the success of the studies, we need more studies about state consiste= ncy control, persistent data storage, multimedia data dissemination, cheat-= prevention, topology mismatching, and virtual world interoperability to con= struct NVEs of better performance.

The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th International Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Networ= ked Virtual Environments were held in conjunction with the 13th, 14th, 15th= and 16th International Conference on Parallel and Distributed Systems in 2= 007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 respectively. To adhere to the theme of P2P-NVE w= orkshops, the theme of P2P-NVE 2011 is to solicit original and previously u= npublished new ideas on general P2P schemes as well as on the design and re= alization of P2P NVEs. The workshop aims to facilitate discussions and idea= exchanges by both academics and practitioners. Authors are invited to subm= it an electronic version of original, unpublished manuscripts, not to excee= d 8 double-columned, single-spaced pages, to the workshop. Submitted papers= should be in accordance with IEEE Computer Society guidelines, and will be= refereed by reviewers in terms of relevance, originality, contribution, co= rrectness, and presentation. All Accepted papers will be published by IEEE = Press (indexed by EI) and will be included in IEEE Xplore.


Topics of interest include, but are not limited to:


* &n= bsp; P2P systems and infrastructures
*   Applications of P2P system= s
*   Performance evaluation of P2P systems
*   Trust and s= ecurity issues in P2P systems
*   Network support for P2P systems
*   Fault tolerance in P2P= systems
*   Data structures for P2P systems
*   Efficient = P2P resource lookup and sharing
*   Distributed Hash Tables (DHTs) = and related issues
*   Solutions to topology mismatching for P2P overlays
*   P2P= overlays for NVEs
*   P2P NVE multicast
*   P2P NVE intero= perability
*   P2P NVE content distribution
*   P2P NVE 3D = streaming
*   P2P NVE voice communications
*   P2P NVE architecture designs
*   P2P NVE prototypes
* &= nbsp; P2P NVE consistency control
*   Persistent storage for P2P NV= Es
*   Security and cheat-prevention mechanisms for P2P games
* =   P2P control for mobile NVEs
*   P2P NVE applications on mobile devices

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
IMPORTANT DATES

Submission:              = ; August 30, 2011 (Firm Deadline)
Notification:    = ;        = ;  September 25, 2011
Camera ready:           October 7, 2011
=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

PAPER SUBMISSION
Authors are invited to submit an electronic version of original, unpub= lished manuscripts, not to exceed 8 double-columned, single-spaced pages, t= o the workshop. Submitted papers should be in PDF format in accordance with= IEEE Computer Society guidelines, and will be refereed by reviewers in ter= ms of originality, contribution, correctness, and presentation.


 --000e0cd20d86713c7104ab1902f6-- From peer2peer@gmail.com Mon Aug 22 12:06:00 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3244721F8B28 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:06:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.829 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.829 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.580, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UjjjSuzpvnWc for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f45.google.com (mail-pz0-f45.google.com [209.85.210.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A6C221F8A97 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33so17356874pzk.18 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:07:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rC+MXF8tVoSUqIHVQj06d+X2Dfsq14e8M4o5tlqF/gI=; b=cg+7vkIBXfIzAL4G5UCixfLgXBDVVyPqCUWL66L97UYpNmt+gB0HKR8wzUoSo71X6R 12SYE2qhYD+VWYNBmh52N+NJzGfB8x7b3v/RAGdJNLWf1Dx0ITDJnpZh8Ub5FZKpS2Df AFZKWQDsz1lW4D25PHYZMnqh3r2qGd3A5whFs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.43.67 with SMTP id u3mr288176pbl.312.1314040023797; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.6.19 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:07:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:07:03 +0200 Message-ID: From: Johan Pouwelse To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:06:00 -0000 The "draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03" looks very polished. After a careful review I think this is all fine and ready for the next leve= l. Greetings, Johan Pouwelse. 2011/8/22 Martin Stiemerling : > Hi Yunfei, > > > > Here is the text proposal for the security section. It is fairly short bu= t > should suffice the considerations for the problem statement. I have inclu= ded > the "protection of the content distribution" to the scope; this is includ= ed > in the current text. However, it will be necessary to document what the > threat to the content distribution is, e.g., to not forward chunks or > exchange chunks with bogus data; and also to document mitigations to this > (hashes, hash tress, etc). > > > > Here you go: > > > > 6. Security Considerations > > > > This memo discusses the problem statement around a peer-to-peer streaming > protocols without specifying the protocols. The protocol specification is > deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP working group. > > > > The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker > protocol, will document the expected threats and how they will be mitigat= ed > for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and mitigations whe= n > combining both protocols in an application. This will include privacy of = the > users, protection of the content distribution, but not protection of the > content by Digital Rights Management (DRM). > > > > Martin > > > > From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 AM > To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 > > > > Hi Martin, > > Thanks for the careful review. Please see inline for the reply. > > BR > > Yunfei > > > > ________________________________ > > zhangyunfei > > 2011-08-16 > > ________________________________ > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-15 21:06:14 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA > > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement= -03 > > > > [Writing not as WG chair, but as individual contributor] > > > > Dear all, > > > > I have reviewed the draft draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 and > did mainly find editorial issues. > > > > Non-Editorials: > > - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, " With PPSP, P2P cache can det= ect > P2P streaming applications much easier without needing to upda= te > its library."; It might not be completely obvious to an aver= age > reader why a standarizded P2P protocol would make things easier > here. How about adding at the end of this sentence: ", as th= ere > is only a single protocol to be detected and not a potentiall= y > unknown set of proprietary P2P protocols". > > > > [Yunfei]Good proposal! > > - Section 3.2, 1st paragraph, 1st sentence. I cannot see the > relationship between the section's intended scope and DONA or a= ny > other content centric networking. > > [Yunfei] Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stream > content(including using P2P)will account a lot in future network is a tre= nd. > But maybe we can replace the trend by actual figures(e.g, in section1, ci= sco > figures)to avoid the misleading sentence. > > - Section 3.2, 3rd paragraph, You lost me with the everything > after the first sentence of this paragraph. I don't understand > what it is saying or what it should be saying. > > [Yunfei] The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexity of the c= ase > by case adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this part. > > - Section 3.3, 1st paragraph, The first sentence about "mobility > and wireless are becoming increasingly dominate " is basically > reflecting the current situation, but what is the relationship = to > the future Internet activities mentioned there? The mobile and > wireless part is already sort of dominant by today. > > [Yunfei] Good question. Similar to section 3.1, replace "trend" by "fact= ". > > - Section 3.4, 2nd paragraph: I know what this paragraph is > aiming at, i.e., reusing the same library and potentially other > optimizations. But it would be better to rephrase the paragraph= . > E.g., "PPSP can help to reduce the resource consumption on > resource constraint devices, such as STBs or mobile phones, by > reusing a PPSP base library and ..." > > [Yunfei] Fine for the change. > > > > - Security section: > > I'm not sure that the current security section is exactly what = we > need for the problem statement. It is on one hand detailed on > the threat description (e.g., "peers may report fake information > about available content"), but on the other side lacks the > description of countermeasures to those threats. > > I would propose to rewrite the security section to cover a > broader focus on highlighting certain threats, but letting the = fix > to those to the particular protocol specifications, i.e., the p= eer > protocol and the tracker protocol. > > > > I can provide some initial text, if there is an agreement to > replace the security section. > > [Yunfei] Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on broadening > the section. And would ask Christian for more comments. > > > > Editorials (mainly suggestions to improve readability): > > - General: There are many places where the dots are misplaced, > e.g., in > > - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, " paradigm [Survey].The". This shou= ld > read "paradigm [Survey]. The" (space between dot and The) > > - Which Internet draft template is being used for this draft? = The > new templates have the "Abstract" before the part on " Statu= s > of this Memo" and " Copyright Notice". > > - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, comma missing, replace "like CNN [C= NN] > PPstream" with "like CNN [CNN], PPstream" > > - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, replace "Client-Server" with > "client-server". The spelling of this is not consistent in the > draft. > > - Section 1, 4th paragraph, replace "Almost all these systems" > with " Almost all of these systems". > > - Section 1, 4th paragraph, replace "P2P streaming, the open > protocols will dynamically reduce " with "P2P streaming, open > protocols may reduce " > > - Section 2, paragraph starting with "PPSP", replace "The > abbreviation of P2P streaming protocols" with "The abbreviation = of > Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocols" > > - Section 2, paragraph starting with "Tracker", replace "list of > peers storing chunks for a specific channel or streaming file" > with "list of peers which participate in a specific video chan= nel > or in the distribution of a streaming file". > > - Section 2, paragraph starting with "Tracker", replace "from pe= ers > for peer lists" with "from peers with a list of candidate > peers". > > - Section 3, 1st paragraph, replace "The problems brought by > proprietary" with "The problems imposed by proprietary" > > - Section 3.1, title of this section, replace "Difficulties for > ISP in deploying P2P caches" with "Difficulties for ISPs in > deploying P2P caches" > > - Section 3.1, 1st paragraph, replace "P2P cache is used to > reduce the" with "P2P caches are used to reduce the" or "P2P > caching is used to reduce the" > > - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, replace "With PPSP, P2P cache can > detect" with "With PPSP, a P2P cache can detect" > > - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, the last sentence, there are two > commas between "tracker/peer protocol" and "which is easier..." > > - Section 3.2, 2nd paragraph, replace "Similar to the cache cas= e, > this" with "Similar to the caching case in Section 3.1, this" > > - Section 3.3, 1st paragraph, last sentence, the dot at the en= d > is missing. > > - Section 3.3, 2nd paragraph, page 10, replace "trackers and pe= ers > need more information" with "trackers and peers may need more > information" > > - Section 3.3, 2nd paragraph, page 10, there is terminology > collision, as serving gateway is translated to GGSN. A change = of > a SGSN will not be noticed by the terminal. Moving to a new > GGSN might be. However, moving to a new GGSN might be experie= nce > like any other event where the IP address changes. > > - Section 3.4, 1st paragraph, replace "In other word" with "In > other words" > > - Section 3.4, 1st paragraph, replace "multiple programs in one > resource constraint" with "multiple programs in a resource > constraint" > > - Section 4, 1st paragraph: replace full 1st paragraph with > > "The objective of the PPSP working group is to design a unifie= d > peer- to-peer streaming protocol (PPSP) to address the problems > discussed in the preceding sections." > > - Section 4, 3rd paragraph: replace "and then retrieve for want= ed > streaming" with "and then retrieve the wanted streaming" > > - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace " topology e.g., a tree." > With " topology, e.g., a tree." > > - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace "(maybe with recommended > order)" with "(potentially in a recommended order)" > > - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace "Few practical systems" with > "Few commercially deployed" > > - Section 4, 5th paragraph: what is "unfounded data"? > > - Section 4, 6th paragraph: move this paragraph to page 12 bef= ore > paragraph starting with "In detail," > > - Section 4, last paragraph, page 12: I'm not sure that we st= ill > need this paragraph. Can we remove it? > > - Section 5, 1st paragraph, there is a leftover: " this section >". > > - Section 5.2, 1st paragraph, replace "Also it can also talk" > with "It can also communicate" > > - Section 5.3, 2nd paragraph, replace " With PPSP Peers can > identify the types of access networks, their load/congestion > information" with " With PPSP, peers may be able to identify = the > type of access networks, average load". Do not include congesti= on > information, as this information is anyhow too volatile to be > tracked by some entity of the peer network, other than the pe= ers > which are anyhow directly communicating with each other. > > - Section 5.3, 2nd paragraph, replace "be selected, which will > lead to" with "be selected, which may lead to" > > - Section 5.5, 1st paragraph, replace "section3" with "Section 3= " > > - Section 5.5, 1st paragraph, replace "nodes in the network" wi= th > "nodes at the network" > > - Reference section: This section does not follow the style of > references as used in the RFC series and needs to be updated. > > > > [Yunfei]I'll update these editorial issues in new version draft. > > > > Kind regards > > > > Martin > > > > martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu > > > > NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe > Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London > W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Aug 22 19:31:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1405E21F8AED for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:31:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.557 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.557 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.284, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FAB6nsJSvUKS for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7379C21F8AEC for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58FFAA3A9; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:32:50 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB627A39B; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:32:49 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.2.105]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011082310324755-5249 ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:32:47 +0800 Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:32:13 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Martin Stiemerling" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <201108231032130037515@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-23 10:32:47, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-23 10:32:49 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon086813346552_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18340.004 X-TM-AS-Result: No--32.847-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--32.847-7.0-31-10;No--32.847-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 02:31:55 -0000 --=====003_Dragon086813346552_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" 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Hi Martin,
   Thanks so m= uch for the=20 proposoal. Let me make sure your meaning: Do you mean we'd better have a ve= ry=20 high-level description on the PPSP secuirty threats and possible solutions,= =20 instead of having a detailed description on the peer and tracker protocol=20 security issues, right?
   
BR
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei=
2011-08-23
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin=20 Stiemerling
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= =A3=BA=20 2011-08-22 20:41:53
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei;=20 ppsp@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WGLC=20 comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03
 

Hi=20 Yunfei,

 

Here=20 is the text proposal for the security section. It is fairly short but shoul= d=20 suffice the considerations for the problem statement. I have included the=20 =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to the scope; this is in= cluded in the=20 current text. However, it will be necessary to document what the threat to = the=20 content distribution is, e.g., to not forward chunks or exchange chunks wit= h=20 bogus data; and also to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, e= tc).=20

 

Here=20 you go:

 

6.=20 Security Considerations

 

This=20 memo discusses the problem statement around a peer-to-peer streaming protoc= ols=20 without specifying the protocols. The protocol specification is deferred to= =20 other memos under development in the PPSP working group.<= /P>

 

The=20 PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker proto= col,=20 will document the expected threats and how they will be mitigated for each = protocol, but also considerations on threats and mitigations when combining= both=20 protocols in an application. This will include privacy of the users, protec= tion=20 of the content distribution, but not protection of the content by Digital R= ights=20 Management (DRM).

 

 =20 Martin

 

From:<= /B> zhangyunfei = [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2= 011=20 9:56 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: = Re:=20 [ppsp] WGLC comments=20 draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Hi=20 Martin,

Thanks=20 for the careful review. Please see inline for the=20 reply.

BR

Yunfei

 

=

zhangyunfei

2011-08-16

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin=20 Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA=20 2011-08-15 21:06:14

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3= =BA=20

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3= =BA [ppsp] WGLC= =20 comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

=

[Writing &nb= sp;not=20  as  WG  chair,  but  as  individual=20  contributor]

 <= /o:p>

Dear=20  all,

 <= /o:p>

I  have= =20  reviewed  the  draft  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statemen= t-03=20  and  did  mainly  find  editorial  issues.=20  

 <= /o:p>

Non-Editoria= ls:

-  Sect= ion=20  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  "    With  PPSP,= =20  P2P  cache  can  detect  P2P  streaming=20  applications  much    easier  without  needi= ng=20  to  update  its  library.";  It  might  = ;not=20  be  completely    obvious  to  an  aver= age=20  reader  why  a  standarizded  P2P  protocol =  would  make  things  easier  here.  How=20  about  adding  at  the  end  of  this=20  sentence:  ",  as  there  is  only  a=20  single  protocol  to  be  detected  and &nbs= p;not=20  a  potentially  unknown  set  of  proprietar= y=20  P2P  protocols".  

 =20

[Yunfei]Good=20 proposal!<= /SPAN>

-  Sect= ion=20  3.2,  1st  paragraph,  1st  sentence.  I=20  cannot  see  the  relationship  between  the= =20  section's  intended  scope  and  DONA  or=20  any  other  content  centric  networking.=20  

[Yunfei]=20 Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stream content(including u= sing=20 P2P)will account a lot in future network is a trend. But maybe we can repla= ce=20 the trend by actual figures(e.g, in section1, cisco figures)to avoid the=20 misleading sentence.<= /SPAN>

-  Sect= ion=20  3.2,  3rd  paragraph,  You  lost  me  w= ith=20  the  everything  after  the  first  sentence= =20  of  this  paragraph.  I  don't  understand=20  what  it  is  saying  or  what  it=20  should  be  saying.  

[Yunfei]=20 The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexity of the case by case= =20 adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this part.<= /SPAN>

-  Sect= ion=20  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  The  first  sentence =  about  "mobility  and  wireless  are  becomi= ng=20  increasingly  dominate  "  is  basically=20  reflecting  the  current  situation,  but  w= hat=20  is  the  relationship  to  the  future=20  Internet  activities  mentioned  there?  The=20  mobile  and  wireless  part  is  already=20  sort  of  dominant  by=20  today.

[Yunfei]=20 Good question. Similar to  section 3.1, replace "trend" by=20 "fact".<= /SPAN>

-  Sect= ion=20  3.4,  2nd  paragraph:  I  know  what  t= his=20  paragraph  is  aiming  at,  i.e.,  reusing=20  the  same  library  and  potentially  other =  optimizations.  But  it  would  be  better=20  to  rephrase  the  paragraph.  E.g.,  "PPSP =  can  help  to  reduce  the  resource=20  consumption  on  resource  constraint  devices,=20  such  as  STBs  or  mobile  phones,  by= =20  reusing  a  PPSP  base  library  and=20  ..."

[Yunfei]=20 Fine for the change.<= /SPAN>

 <= /o:p>

-  Secu= rity=20  section:  

I'm  no= t=20  sure  that  the  current  security  section =  is  exactly  what  we  need  for  the=20  problem  statement.  It  is  on  one  h= and=20  detailed  on  the  threat  description  (e.g= .,=20  "peers  may  report  fake  information  abou= t=20  available  content"),  but  on  the  other=20  side  lacks  the  description  of=20  countermeasures  to  those  threats.=20  

I  woul= d=20  propose  to  rewrite  the  security  section= =20  to  cover  a  broader  focus  on=20  highlighting  certain  threats,  but  letting=20  the  fix  to  those  to  the  particula= r=20  protocol  specifications,  i.e.,  the  peer=20  protocol  and  the  tracker=20  protocol.

 <= /o:p>

I  can =  provide  some  initial  text,  if  there &nb= sp;is=20  an  agreement  to  replace  the  security=20  section.  

[Yunfei]=20 Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on broadening the=20 section. And would ask Christian for more comments.<= /SPAN>

 <= /o:p>

Editorials=20  (mainly  suggestions  to  improve=20  readability):

-  Gene= ral:=20  There  are  many  places  where  the  d= ots=20  are  misplaced,  e.g.,  in

 -=20  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  "  paradigm=20  [Survey].The".  This  should  read  "paradigm=20  [Survey].  The"  (space  between  dot  and=20  The)

-  Whic= h=20  Internet  draft  template  is  being  used=20  for  this  draft?  The  new  templates  = ;have=20  the  "Abstract"    before  the  part  o= n=20  "  Status  of  this  Memo"  and  "=20  Copyright  Notice".  

-  Sect= ion=20  1,  2nd  paragraph,  comma  missing,  replac= e=20  "like  CNN  [CNN]  PPstream"  with  "like=20  CNN  [CNN],  PPstream"

-  Sect= ion=20  1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  "Client-Server"=20  with  "client-server".  The  spelling  of  t= his=20  is  not  consistent  in  the=20  draft.

-  Sect= ion=20  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  "Almost  all=20  these  systems"  with  "  Almost  all  = of=20  these  systems".

-  Sect= ion=20  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  "P2P  streamin= g,=20  the  open  protocols  will  dynamically  red= uce=20    "  with  "P2P  streaming,  open  prot= ocols=20  may  reduce  "

-  Sect= ion=20  2,  paragraph  starting  with  "PPSP",  repl= ace=20  "The  abbreviation  of  P2P  streaming=20  protocols"  with  "The  abbreviation  of=20  Peer-to-Peer  Streaming  Protocols"

-  Sect= ion=20  2,  paragraph  starting  with  "Tracker",=20  replace  "list  of  peers  storing  chunks=20  for  a  specific  channel  or  streaming=20  file"  with  "list  of  peers  which=20  participate  in  a  specific  video  channel= =20  or  in  the  distribution  of  a  strea= ming=20  file".  

-  Sect= ion=20  2,  paragraph  starting  with  "Tracker",=20  replace  "from  peers  for  peer  lists"=20  with  "from  peers  with  a  list  of=20  candidate  peers".

-  Sect= ion=20  3,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "The  problems= =20  brought  by  proprietary"  with  "The  probl= ems=20  imposed  by  proprietary"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.1,  title  of  this  section,  replace=20  "Difficulties  for  ISP  in  deploying  P2P =  caches"  with  "Difficulties  for  ISPs  in =  deploying  P2P  caches"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.1,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "P2P  =20  cache  is  used  to  reduce  the"  with= =20  "P2P  caches  are  used  to  reduce  th= e"=20  or  "P2P      caching  is  used  t= o=20  reduce  the"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  "With  PPSP,= =20  P2P  cache  can  detect"  with  "With  = PPSP,=20  a  P2P  cache  can=20  detect"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  the  last  sentence, =  there  are  two  commas  between  "tracker/p= eer=20  protocol"  and  "which  is=20  easier..."

-  Sect= ion=20  3.2,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  "Similar  to= =20  the  cache  case,  this"  with  "Similar &nb= sp;to=20  the  caching  case  in  Section  3.1,=20  this"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  last  sentence,  the =  dot  at  the  end  is  missing.=20  

-  Sect= ion=20  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10,  replace=20  "trackers  and  peers  need  more  informati= on"=20  with  "trackers  and  peers  may  need  = ;more=20  information"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10,  there &nbs= p;is=20  terminology  collision,  as  serving  gateway &nb= sp;is=20  translated  to  GGSN.  A  change  of  a= =20  SGSN  will  not  be  noticed  by  the=20  terminal.  Moving  to  a  new  GGSN  mi= ght=20  be.  However,  moving  to  a  new  GGSN= =20  might  be  experience  like  any  other=20  event  where  the  IP  address  changes.=20  

-  Sect= ion=20  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "In  other=20  word"  with  "In  other=20  words"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "multiple=20  programs  in  one  resource  constraint"  wi= th=20  "multiple  programs  in  a  resource=20  constraint"

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  1st  paragraph:  replace  full  1st=20  paragraph  with

"The=20  objective  of  the  PPSP  working  group &nb= sp;is=20  to  design  a  unified  peer-  to-peer=20  streaming  protocol  (PPSP)  to  address  th= e=20  problems  discussed  in  the  preceding=20  sections."

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  3rd  paragraph:  replace  "and  then=20  retrieve  for  wanted  streaming"  with  "an= d=20  then  retrieve  the  wanted=20  streaming"

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  "  topology=20  e.g.,  a  tree."  With  "  topology,  e= .g.,=20  a  tree."

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  "(maybe  with =  recommended  order)"  with  "(potentially  in &nb= sp;a=20  recommended  order)"

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  "Few  practica= l=20  systems"  with  "Few  commercially=20  deployed"

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  5th  paragraph:  what  is  "unfounded=20  data"?

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  6th  paragraph:  move  this  paragraph=20  to  page  12  before  paragraph  starting=20  with  "In  detail,"

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  last  paragraph,  page  12:  I'm  n= ot=20  sure  that  we  still  need  this=20  paragraph.  Can  we  remove=20  it?

-  Sect= ion=20  5,  1st  paragraph,  there  is  a  left= over:=20  "   <Text  for  this  section=20 >".

-  Sect= ion=20  5.2,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "Also  it=20  can  also  talk"  with  "It  can  also =  communicate"

-  Sect= ion=20  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  "  With=20  PPSP  Peers  can  identify  the  types  = ;of=20  access  networks,  their  load/congestion=20  information"  with  "  With  PPSP,  peers=20  may  be  able  to  identify  the  type =  of  access  networks,  average  load".  Do=20  not  include  congestion  information,  as  = this=20  information  is  anyhow  too  volatile  to=20  be  tracked  by  some  entity  of  the =  peer  network,  other  than  the  peers=20  which  are  anyhow  directly  communicating  = ;with=20  each  other.

-  Sect= ion=20  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  "be  selecte= d,=20  which  will  lead  to"  with  "be  sele= cted,=20  which  may  lead  to"

-  Sect= ion=20  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "section3"  = with=20  "Section  3"

-  Sect= ion=20  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "nodes  in=20  the  network"  with  "nodes  at  the=20  network"

-  Refe= rence=20  section:  This  section  does  not  follow=20  the  style  of  references  as  used  i= n=20  the  RFC  series  and  needs  to  be=20  updated.

 <= /o:p>

[Yunfei]I'll=20 update these editorial issues in new version draft.<= /SPAN>

 <= /o:p>

Kind=20  regards

 <= /o:p>

 =20  Martin

 <= /o:p>

martin.stiem= erling@neclab.eu

 <= /o:p>

NEC=20  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research=20  Division  NEC  Europe  Limited  |  Registere= d=20  Office:  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,=20  London  W3  6BL  |  Registered  in  Eng= land=20  2832014  

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F

ppsp  m= ailing=20  list

ppsp@ietf.or= g

https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

--=====003_Dragon086813346552_=====-- From zongning@huawei.com Mon Aug 22 19:34:26 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5573A21F8AF0 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:34:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W21Q9F1RMOsv for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CEB921F8AFE for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQD00EXL0HXAQ@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:34:45 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQD00EY10HXP0@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:34:45 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316a ([10.138.41.128]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LQD009840HSRC@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:34:45 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:34:40 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: To: 'Martin Stiemerling' , ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <007701cc613d$35cbcdb0$a1636910$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-cn Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcxgzA4tSkXKRGhvQ2GJIv5Jaqjv0wAcJZRQ References: Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIFdHTEMgZm9yIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtcHBzcC1y?= =?gb2312?b?ZXFzLTAzIHN0YXJ0aW5nIHRvZGF5IHVudGlsCVNlcHRlbWJlciA1?= =?gb2312?b?dGg=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 02:34:26 -0000 Hi, all, Arno and Johan have sent their comments and I will address them soon in = next revision. We are waiting for more review comments, suggestions. Thanks. BR Ning Zong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Martin Stiemerling =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C222=C8=D5 21:07 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03 starting today = until September 5th Dear all, We start a 2 weeks Working Group Last Call (WGLC) for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03.txt, as agreed during the PPSP session at the IETF#81 meeting. Please review the draft and send your comments to the PPSP list. Any = type of review is appreciated, even if it is saying only "I have read the draft = and it is ok".=20 However, a thorough review is required by a number of PPSP WG members = (which is YOU!).=20 The WGLC starts right now and will end September, 5th 6 pm PDT. The draft is accessible in text, pdf, or html from this URL http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | = Registered in England 2832014 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Aug 22 19:41:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2920C21F8AD2 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:41:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.496 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.496 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.223, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z4Xex1tUhdxz for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8BC821F8781 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A77BA3BE; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:42:05 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E926FA3AF; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:42:04 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.2.105]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011082310415772-5588 ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:41:57 +0800 Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:41:23 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Johan Pouwelse" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <201108231041229837674@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-23 10:41:57, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-23 10:42:04 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon455824657536_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18340.004 X-TM-AS-Result: No--35.160-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--35.160-7.0-31-10;No--35.160-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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Thanks Johan for the rev= iew. As a=20 practical developer of p2p streaming system, your comments make us more=20 confident:)
 
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei=
2011-08-23
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Johan=20 Pouwelse
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= =A3=BA=20 2011-08-23 03:07:08
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] WGLC=20 comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03
 
The  "draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03"  looks  ver= y=20  polished.
After  a  careful  review  I  think  thi= s=20  is  all  fine  and  ready  for  the=20  next  level.
 
Greetings,  Johan  Pouwelse.
 
2011/8/22  Martin  Stiemerling  =20 <Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu >:
>  Hi  Yunfei,
>
>
>
>  Here  is  the  text  proposal  for= =20  the  security  section.  It  is  fairly=20  short  but
>  should  suffice  the  considerations  f= or=20  the  problem  statement.  I  have  included<= /DIV>
>  the  "protection  of  the  content=20  distribution"  to  the  scope;  this  is=20  included
>  in  the  current  text.  However,  = ;it=20  will  be  necessary  to  document  what=20  the
>  threat  to  the  content  distribution =  is,  e.g.,  to  not  forward  chunks=20  or
>  exchange  chunks  with  bogus  data;=20  and  also  to  document  mitigations  to=20  this
>  (hashes,  hash  tress,  etc).
>
>
>
>  Here  you  go:
>
>
>
>  6.  Security  Considerations
>
>
>
>  This  memo  discusses  the  problem=20  statement  around  a  peer-to-peer  streaming
>  protocols  without  specifying  the=20  protocols.  The  protocol  specification  is
>  deferred  to  other  memos  under=20  development  in  the  PPSP  working  group.<= /DIV>
>
>
>
>  The  PPSP  protocol  specifications,  e= .g.,=20  the  peer  protocol  and  the  tracker
>  protocol,  will  document  the  expecte= d=20  threats  and  how  they  will  be=20  mitigated
>  for  each  protocol,  but  also=20  considerations  on  threats  and  mitigations=20  when
>  combining  both  protocols  in  an=20  application.  This  will  include  privacy  = of=20  the
>  users,  protection  of  the  content=20  distribution,  but  not  protection  of=20  the
>  content  by  Digital  Rights  Managemen= t=20  (DRM).
>
>
>
>      Martin
>
>
>
>  From:  zhangyunfei=20  [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
>  Sent:  Tuesday,  August  16,  2011=20  9:56  AM
>  To:  Martin  Stiemerling;  ppsp@ietf.org
>  Subject:  Re:  [ppsp]  WGLC  comments=20  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03
>
>
>
>  Hi  Martin,
>
>  Thanks  for  the  careful  review.=20  Please  see  inline  for  the  reply.
>
>  BR
>
>  Yunfei
>
>
>
>  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
>
>  zhangyunfei
>
>  2011-08-16
>
>  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
>
>  =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  Martin  Stiemerling
>
>  =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA  2011-08-15  21:06= :14
>
>  =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA  ppsp@ietf.org
>
>  =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
>
>  =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA  [ppsp]  WGLC  comments=20  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03
>
>
>
>  [Writing    not    as    WG &= nbsp;=20  chair,    but    as    individual  = ;=20  contributor]
>
>
>
>  Dear    all,
>
>
>
>  I    have    reviewed    the =    draft    draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03  = =20  and
>    did    mainly    find  =20  editorial    issues.
>
>
>
>  Non-Editorials:
>
>  -    Section    3.1,    2nd &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    "        With  =20  PPSP,    P2P    cache    can  =20  detect
>    P2P    streaming    applications= =20    much        easier    without &n= bsp;=20  needing    to    update
>    its    library.";    It  =20  might    not    be    completely  = =20      obvious    to    an  =20  average
>    reader    why    a  =20  standarizded    P2P    protocol    woul= d=20    make    things    easier
>    here.    How    about  =20  adding    at    the    end    = ;of=20    this    sentence:    ",    as &n= bsp;=20  there
>    is    only    a    sin= gle=20    protocol    to    be    detected= =20    and    not    a    potentially
>    unknown    set    of  =20  proprietary    P2P    protocols".
>
>
>
>  [Yunfei]Good  proposal!
>
>  -    Section    3.2,    1st &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    1st    sentence.    I &nb= sp;=20  cannot    see    the
>    relationship    between    the &= nbsp;=20  section's    intended    scope    and &= nbsp;=20  DONA    or    any
>    other    content    centric &nbs= p;=20  networking.
>
>  [Yunfei]  Acutally  it  wants  to=20  explain  the  phenomenon  that  stream
>  content(including  using  P2P)will  account =  a  lot  in  future  network  is  a=20  trend.
>  But  maybe  we  can  replace  the =  trend  by  actual  figures(e.g,  in  section= 1,=20  cisco
>  figures)to  avoid  the  misleading=20  sentence.
>
>  -    Section    3.2,    3rd &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    You    lost    me   =  with    the    everything
>    after    the    first  =20  sentence    of    this    paragraph. &n= bsp;=20  I    don't    understand
>    what    it    is    sa= ying=20    or    what    it    should  = ;=20  be    saying.
>
>  [Yunfei]  The  sentence  is  saying=20  that  PPSP  reduces  the  complexity  of=20  the  case
>  by  case  adaptation  between  CDN &nbs= p;and=20  the  CP.Maybe  I  can  rewrite  this=20  part.
>
>  -    Section    3.3,    1st &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    The    first    sentence =    about    "mobility
>    and    wireless    are  =20  becoming    increasingly    dominate    = ;"=20    is    basically
>    reflecting    the    current &nb= sp;=20  situation,    but    what    is   =  the    relationship    to
>    the    future    Internet  = =20  activities    mentioned    there?    Th= e=20    mobile    and
>    wireless    part    is  =20  already    sort    of    dominant  = ;=20  by    today.
>
>  [Yunfei]  Good  question.  Similar  to =    section  3.1,  replace  "trend"  by=20  "fact".
>
>  -    Section    3.4,    2nd &= nbsp;=20  paragraph:    I    know    what   =  this    paragraph    is
>    aiming    at,    i.e.,  =20  reusing    the    same    library  = ;=20  and    potentially    other
>    optimizations.    But    it &nbs= p;=20  would    be    better    to  =20  rephrase    the    paragraph.
>    E.g.,    "PPSP    can  =20  help    to    reduce    the  =20  resource    consumption    on
>    resource    constraint    device= s,=20    such    as    STBs    or   =  mobile    phones,    by
>    reusing    a    PPSP  =20  base    library    and    ..."
>
>  [Yunfei]  Fine  for  the  change.
>
>
>
>  -    Security    section:
>
>  I'm    not    sure    that &n= bsp;=20  the    current    security    section &= nbsp;=20  is    exactly    what    we
>    need    for    the  =20  problem    statement.    It    is  = ;=20  on    one    hand    detailed  =20  on
>    the    threat    description &nb= sp;=20  (e.g.,    "peers    may    report  = ;=20  fake    information
>    about    available    content"),= =20    but    on    the    other  = =20  side    lacks    the
>    description    of    countermeas= ures=20    to    those    threats.
>
>  I    would    propose    to &= nbsp;=20  rewrite    the    security    section &= nbsp;=20  to    cover    a
>    broader    focus    on  =20  highlighting    certain    threats,    = but=20    letting    the    fix
>    to    those    to    t= he=20    particular    protocol    specifications, =    i.e.,    the    peer
>    protocol    and    the  =20  tracker    protocol.
>
>
>
>  I    can    provide    some &= nbsp;=20  initial    text,    if    there   =  is    an    agreement    to
>    replace    the    security  = ;=20  section.
>
>  [Yunfei]  Thanks  and  would  be  = glad=20  to  see  your  detailed  text  on=20  broadening
>  the  section.  And  would  ask=20  Christian  for  more  comments.
>
>
>
>  Editorials    (mainly    suggestions &n= bsp;=20  to    improve    readability):
>
>  -    General:    There    are= =20    many    places    where    the &= nbsp;=20  dots    are    misplaced,
>    e.g.,    in
>
>    -    Section    1,    = 2nd=20    paragraph,    "    paradigm  =20  [Survey].The".    This    should
>    read    "paradigm    [Survey]. &= nbsp;=20  The"    (space    between    dot  = =20  and    The)
>
>  -    Which    Internet    dra= ft=20    template    is    being    used =    for    this    draft?    The
>    new    templates    have   =  the    "Abstract"        before   =  the    part    on    "  =20  Status
>    of    this    Memo"    = ;and=20    "    Copyright    Notice".
>
>  -    Section    1,    2nd &nb= sp;=20  paragraph,    comma    missing,    repl= ace=20    "like    CNN    [CNN]
>    PPstream"    with    "like  = ;=20  CNN    [CNN],    PPstream"
>
>  -    Section    1,    2nd &nb= sp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "Client-Server"  =20  with
>    "client-server".    The    spell= ing=20    of    this    is    not  =20  consistent    in    the
>    draft.
>
>  -    Section    1,    4th &nb= sp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "Almost    all= =20    these    systems"
>    with    "    Almost    = ;all=20    of    these    systems".
>
>  -    Section    1,    4th &nb= sp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "P2P    stream= ing,=20    the    open
>    protocols    will    dynamically= =20    reduce        "    with  =20  "P2P    streaming,    open
>    protocols    may    reduce  = ;=20  "
>
>  -    Section    2,    paragra= ph=20    starting    with    "PPSP",  =20  replace    "The
>    abbreviation    of    P2P  = =20  streaming    protocols"    with    "The= =20    abbreviation    of
>    Peer-to-Peer    Streaming  =20  Protocols"
>
>  -    Section    2,    paragra= ph=20    starting    with    "Tracker",  =20  replace    "list    of
>    peers    storing    chunks  = ;=20  for    a    specific    channel   =  or    streaming    file"
>    with    "list    of  =20  peers    which    participate    in &nb= sp;=20  a    specific    video    channel
>    or    in    the  =20  distribution    of    a    streaming &n= bsp;=20  file".
>
>  -    Section    2,    paragra= ph=20    starting    with    "Tracker",  =20  replace    "from    peers
>    for    peer    lists"  =20  with    "from    peers    with  =20  a    list    of    candidate
>    peers".
>
>  -    Section    3,    1st &nb= sp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "The    proble= ms=20    brought    by
>    proprietary"    with    "The &nb= sp;=20  problems    imposed    by  =20  proprietary"
>
>  -    Section    3.1,    title= =20    of    this    section,    replac= e=20    "Difficulties    for
>    ISP    in    deploying  =20  P2P    caches"    with    "Difficulties= =20    for    ISPs    in
>    deploying    P2P    caches"
>
>  -    Section    3.1,    1st &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "P2P      = ;=20  cache    is    used    to
>    reduce    the"    with  =20  "P2P    caches    are    used  =20  to    reduce    the"    or  =20  "P2P
>    caching    is    used   &nb= sp;to=20    reduce    the"
>
>  -    Section    3.1,    2nd &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "With    PPSP,= =20    P2P    cache    can
>    detect"    with    "With   =  PPSP,    a    P2P    cache    = ;can=20    detect"
>
>  -    Section    3.1,    2nd &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    the    last    sentence, =    there    are    two
>    commas    between    "tracker/pe= er=20    protocol"    and    "which    is= =20    easier..."
>
>  -    Section    3.2,    2nd &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "Similar    to= =20    the    cache    case,
>    this"    with    "Similar  = =20  to    the    caching    case   &nb= sp;in=20    Section    3.1,    this"
>
>  -    Section    3.3,    1st &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    last    sentence,    the =    dot    at    the    end
>    is    missing.
>
>  -    Section    3.3,    2nd &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    page    10,    replace &n= bsp;=20  "trackers    and    peers
>    need    more    information" &nb= sp;=20  with    "trackers    and    peers  = ;=20  may    need    more
>    information"
>
>  -    Section    3.3,    2nd &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    page    10,    there &nbs= p;=20  is    terminology
>    collision,    as    serving &nbs= p;=20  gateway    is    translated    to  = ;=20  GGSN.    A    change    of
>    a    SGSN    will    n= ot=20    be    noticed    by    the  = ;=20  terminal.    Moving    to    a  =20  new
>    GGSN    might    be.  =20  However,    moving    to    a  =20  new    GGSN    might    be  =20  experience
>    like    any    other  =20  event    where    the    IP  =20  address    changes.
>
>  -    Section    3.4,    1st &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "In    other &= nbsp;=20  word"    with    "In
>    other    words"
>
>  -    Section    3.4,    1st &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "multiple  =20  programs    in    one
>    resource    constraint"    with =    "multiple    programs    in    a= =20    resource
>    constraint"
>
>  -    Section    4,    1st &nb= sp;=20  paragraph:    replace    full    1st &n= bsp;=20  paragraph    with
>
>  "The    objective    of    th= e=20    PPSP    working    group    is &= nbsp;=20  to    design    a    unified
>    peer-    to-peer    streaming &n= bsp;=20  protocol    (PPSP)    to    address &nb= sp;=20  the    problems
>    discussed    in    the  =20  preceding    sections."
>
>  -    Section    4,    3rd &nb= sp;=20  paragraph:    replace    "and    then &= nbsp;=20  retrieve    for    wanted
>    streaming"    with    "and  = ;=20  then    retrieve    the    wanted  = ;=20  streaming"
>
>  -    Section    4,    4th &nb= sp;=20  paragraph:    replace    "    topology =    e.g.,    a    tree."
>    With    "    topology,  =20  e.g.,    a    tree."
>
>  -    Section    4,    4th &nb= sp;=20  paragraph:    replace    "(maybe    wit= h=20    recommended
>    order)"    with    "(potentially= =20    in    a    recommended  =20  order)"
>
>  -    Section    4,    4th &nb= sp;=20  paragraph:    replace    "Few    practi= cal=20    systems"    with
>    "Few    commercially  =20  deployed"
>
>  -    Section    4,    5th &nb= sp;=20  paragraph:    what    is    "unfounded =    data"?
>
>  -    Section    4,    6th &nb= sp;=20  paragraph:    move    this    paragraph= =20    to    page    12    before
>    paragraph    starting    with &n= bsp;=20  "In    detail,"
>
>  -    Section    4,    last &n= bsp;=20  paragraph,    page    12:    I'm  = =20  not    sure    that    we  =20  still
>    need    this    paragraph.  = ;=20  Can    we    remove    it?
>
>  -    Section    5,    1st &nb= sp;=20  paragraph,    there    is    a  =20  leftover:    "       <Text  =20  for
>    this    section   >".
>
>  -    Section    5.2,    1st &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "Also    it &n= bsp;=20  can    also    talk"
>    with    "It    can    = also=20    communicate"
>
>  -    Section    5.3,    2nd &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "    With &nbs= p;=20  PPSP    Peers    can
>    identify    the    types   =  of    access    networks,    their &nbs= p;=20  load/congestion
>    information"    with    "  = =20  With    PPSP,    peers    may  =20  be    able    to    identify  =20  the
>    type    of    access  =20  networks,    average    load".    Do &n= bsp;=20  not    include    congestion
>    information,    as    this  = ;=20  information    is    anyhow    too &nbs= p;=20  volatile    to    be
>    tracked    by    some  =20  entity    of    the    peer  =20  network,    other    than    the  = =20  peers
>    which    are    anyhow  =20  directly    communicating    with    ea= ch=20    other.
>
>  -    Section    5.3,    2nd &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "be    selecte= d,=20    which    will
>    lead    to"    with    = ;"be=20    selected,    which    may    lea= d=20    to"
>
>  -    Section    5.5,    1st &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "section3"    = with=20    "Section    3"
>
>  -    Section    5.5,    1st &= nbsp;=20  paragraph,    replace    "nodes    in &= nbsp;=20  the    network"    with
>    "nodes    at    the  =20  network"
>
>  -    Reference    section:    = ;This=20    section    does    not    follow= =20    the    style    of
>    references    as    used   =  in    the    RFC    series    = ;and=20    needs    to    be    updated.
>
>
>
>  [Yunfei]I'll  update  these  editorial=20  issues  in  new  version  draft.
>
>
>
>  Kind    regards
>
>
>
>        Martin
>
>
>
>  martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu
>
>
>
>  NEC    Laboratories    Europe   &n= bsp;-=20    Network    Research    Division  =20  NEC    Europe
>    Limited    |    Registered  = ;=20  Office:    NEC    House,    1  =20  Victoria    Road,    London
>    W3    6BL    |  =20  Registered    in    England    2832014<= /DIV>
>
>
>
>
>
>  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F
>
>  ppsp    mailing    list
>
>  ppsp@ietf.org
>
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>
>  =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F
>  ppsp  mailing  list
>  ppsp@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>
>
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
ppsp  mailing  list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
--=====003_Dragon455824657536_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Aug 22 20:04:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A34521F8A4D for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:04:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.283, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I0hO6wu1gfJl for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBD721F8A35 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD8DA3D9; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:43:01 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by imss.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 219D8A3E1; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:43:01 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.2.105]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011082310423985-5617 ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:42:39 +0800 Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:42:06 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Martin Stiemerling" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: Message-ID: <201108231042058689105@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-23 10:42:40, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-23 10:43:00, Serialize complete at 2011-08-23 10:43:00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon533583852464_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18340.004 X-TM-AS-Result: No--34.527-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--34.527-7.0-31-10;No--34.527-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-02.txtstarting today until August 15th X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:04:55 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon533583852464_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" W0FzIGFuIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgYXV0aG9yIG9mIFBQU1AgUFMgZHJhZnRdDQoNCldlIGFyZSB2ZXJ5 IGdyYXRlZnVsIGZvciB0aGUgY2hhaXIncyBvcmduaXphdGlvbiBhbmQgYWxsIHRoZSByZXZpZXdl 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ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B2D21F8B0D for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 01:31:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.095 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.095 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.504, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9VZbbNXa73Ku for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 01:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD56721F8A97 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 01:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9916F2800034C for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:33:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zzzPM6JCbJG0 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:33:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C494280004C0 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:32:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Polydeuces.office.hd ([169.254.3.194]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:32:56 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Planning of a virtual interim meeting for PPSP for end of September Thread-Index: AcxjyRx+HOb6cSHgTVm+UOSaAY7QIw== Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 08:32:56 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ppsp] Planning of a virtual interim meeting for PPSP for end of September X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 08:31:50 -0000 Dear all, We have discussed the need of having a virtual interim meeting for the PPSP= WG, at the last IETF meeting in Quebec City.=20 The purpose of this virtual interim meeting is to progress the works on the= peer and tracker protocols.=20 Yunfei and I have planned to have the virtual interim meeting in the last w= eek of September (26th to 30th of September). This should give sufficient time to get permission from the AD for the meet= ing, to announce it, and more importantly to get updated drafts (and techni= cal progress) of the peer protocol proposals and also the tracker protocol = proposals.=20 For picking a good date we request that all interested WG members fill in t= heir availability in the doodle poll here: http://www.doodle.com/etk9zt8bcmr4g2zn We will set the meeting at a day time so that all participants from around = the world can participate.=20 **Please fill in your availability in the doodle poll until August 31st. ** How does such a virtual interim meeting work? It is an interim meeting of the working group (http://www.ietf.org/iesg/sta= tement/interim-meetings.html) but without the need to travel, but by using = an online collaboration tool. This tool will be Webex (http://www.webex.com= /) which offers a chat facility, audio, and also slide sharing via a web br= owser.=20 We will require to have updated drafts of the peer protocol and also tracke= r protocol roughly a week in advance of the virtual interim meeting, just F= YI right now. With best regards, Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Re= gistered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in = England 2832014=20 From guyingjie@huawei.com Fri Aug 26 18:06:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D46F721F87F9 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:06:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.768 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.768 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.803, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AQL-hsVH24AJ for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DFA321F87C9 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQK00EFLB4DAD@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Sat, 27 Aug 2011 09:07:25 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQK00M4MB4DEU@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Sat, 27 Aug 2011 09:07:25 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ADK98019; Sat, 27 Aug 2011 09:07:23 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.91) by szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Sat, 27 Aug 2011 09:05:58 +0800 Received: from g00107907 (10.138.41.134) by szxeml412-hub.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Sat, 27 Aug 2011 09:07:23 +0800 Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 09:08:05 +0800 From: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.134] To: 'Martin Stiemerling' , ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <001201cc6455$c7ef5390$57cdfab0$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-cn Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcxjyRx+HOb6cSHgTVm+UOSaAY7QIwAjH+gw X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIFBsYW5uaW5nIG9mIGEgdmlydHVhbCBpbnRl?= =?gb2312?b?cmltIG1lZXRpbmcgZm9yIFBQU1AgZm9yIGVuZCBvZglTZXB0ZW1i?= =?gb2312?b?ZXI=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 01:06:10 -0000 I will definitely provide the new version of Tracker protocol a week in advance of the interim meeting. I will try to make it earlier so that we = can have more mailing list discussion. Thank you for organize the interim meeting. Best Regards Gu Yingjie -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Martin Stiemerling =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C226=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D616:33 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: [ppsp] Planning of a virtual interim meeting for PPSP for = end of September Dear all, We have discussed the need of having a virtual interim meeting for the = PPSP WG, at the last IETF meeting in Quebec City.=20 The purpose of this virtual interim meeting is to progress the works on = the peer and tracker protocols.=20 Yunfei and I have planned to have the virtual interim meeting in the = last week of September (26th to 30th of September). This should give sufficient time to get permission from the AD for the meeting, to announce it, and more importantly to get updated drafts (and technical progress) of the peer protocol proposals and also the tracker protocol proposals.=20 For picking a good date we request that all interested WG members fill = in their availability in the doodle poll here: http://www.doodle.com/etk9zt8bcmr4g2zn We will set the meeting at a day time so that all participants from = around the world can participate.=20 **Please fill in your availability in the doodle poll until August 31st. = ** How does such a virtual interim meeting work? It is an interim meeting of the working group (http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/interim-meetings.html) but without = the need to travel, but by using an online collaboration tool. This tool = will be Webex (http://www.webex.com/) which offers a chat facility, audio, and = also slide sharing via a web browser.=20 We will require to have updated drafts of the peer protocol and also = tracker protocol roughly a week in advance of the virtual interim meeting, just = FYI right now. With best regards, Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | = Registered in England 2832014=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From p2p.nve.2011@gmail.com Sun Aug 28 08:05:01 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D9DF21F8B90; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:05:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.866 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.866 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.732, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kwbfg3qgb9SX; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f45.google.com (mail-pz0-f45.google.com [209.85.210.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C57D21F8B5B; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33so16451256pzk.18 for ; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:06:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=bbwjsiESM9XRoIzp/Jz1065WNvnpnudliWV8SrialBQ=; b=aErGJoYMKHB06lRxQTZ98sW2jIr3KlOZBimBNddHf5/Yf/77HnmsXWbc3iRbqmj+qY a3u56yVSUfZu7SJu6uPL7uIXRYAJGLbToV79ASfVCdfjFF76O8LqKWkDKrfS1WPaXWSO Ok9fbECmATPFcJBvCDxQ0zDkSB3vgdR/6DK0Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.233.15 with SMTP id f15mr764304wfh.335.1314543982247; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.60.11 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:06:22 +0800 Message-ID: From: 2011 p2pnve To: tccc@lists.cs.columbia.edu, p2p@ogf.org, p2psip@ietf.org, ppsp@ietf.org, sam@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd23b9e1a7de704ab921f15 Subject: [ppsp] [Last CFP] P2PNVE 2011 [Deadline extended to Aug. 30, 2011 (Firm Deadline)] X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 15:05:01 -0000 --000e0cd23b9e1a7de704ab921f15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 [Apologies if you receive multiple copies of this message] * Deadline extended to August 30, 2011 (Firm Deadline)* CALL FOR PAPERS ======================================================================== The 5th International Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Networked Virtual Environments (P2P-NVE 2011) in conjunction with The 17th International Conference on Parallel and Distributed Systems (ICPADS 2011) December 7-9, 2011 Tainan, Taiwan http://acnlab.csie.ncu.edu.tw/P2PNVE2011/ ======================================================================== PURPOSE AND SCOPE Peer-to-peer (P2P) is a computing paradigm based on self-organizing network overlays, in which participating entities play symmetric roles as both servers and clients for accomplish common goals. Compared with the traditional client/server (C/S) paradigm, the P2P paradigm is not vulnerable to a single point of failure and has better scalability and lower installation and management cost. It has been successfully applied to many applications, such as data sharing, storage sharing, bandwidth sharing, collaborative computation, and so on. Many research studies have been devoted to developing efficient, flexible, and secure P2P systems. They call for a workshop to provide a forum for researchers to exchange their ideas about state-of-the-art P2P technologies. Recently, some studies try to apply the P2P paradigm to network virtual environments (NVEs), which is also known as distributed virtual environment (DVEs) or collaborative virtual environment (CVEs), to increase NVE scalability and to reduce NVE management and deployment costs. An NVE is a computer-generated virtual world where multiple users can assume virtual representatives (or avatars) to concurrently interact with each other via networked links. Examples of NVEs include early DARPA SIMNET and DIS systems as well as currently booming Massively Multiplayer Online Games (MMOGs). Typical examples of studies on P2P NVEs are P2P voice chatting, P2P 3D streaming, P2P game state management, and so on. In spite of the success of the studies, we need more studies about state consistency control, persistent data storage, multimedia data dissemination, cheat-prevention, topology mismatching, and virtual world interoperability to construct NVEs of better performance. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th International Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Networked Virtual Environments were held in conjunction with the 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th International Conference on Parallel and Distributed Systems in 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 respectively. To adhere to the theme of P2P-NVE workshops, the theme of P2P-NVE 2011 is to solicit original and previously unpublished new ideas on general P2P schemes as well as on the design and realization of P2P NVEs. The workshop aims to facilitate discussions and idea exchanges by both academics and practitioners. Authors are invited to submit an electronic version of original, unpublished manuscripts, not to exceed 8 double-columned, single-spaced pages, to the workshop. Submitted papers should be in accordance with IEEE Computer Society guidelines, and will be refereed by reviewers in terms of relevance, originality, contribution, correctness, and presentation. All Accepted papers will be published by IEEE Press (indexed by EI) and will be included in IEEE Xplore. Topics of interest include, but are not limited to: * P2P systems and infrastructures * Applications of P2P systems * Performance evaluation of P2P systems * Trust and security issues in P2P systems * Network support for P2P systems * Fault tolerance in P2P systems * Data structures for P2P systems * Efficient P2P resource lookup and sharing * Distributed Hash Tables (DHTs) and related issues * Solutions to topology mismatching for P2P overlays * P2P overlays for NVEs * P2P NVE multicast * P2P NVE interoperability * P2P NVE content distribution * P2P NVE 3D streaming * P2P NVE voice communications * P2P NVE architecture designs * P2P NVE prototypes * P2P NVE consistency control * Persistent storage for P2P NVEs * Security and cheat-prevention mechanisms for P2P games * P2P control for mobile NVEs * P2P NVE applications on mobile devices ========================================== IMPORTANT DATES Submission: August 30, 2011 (Firm Deadline) Notification: September 25, 2011 Camera ready: October 7, 2011 =========================================== PAPER SUBMISSION Authors are invited to submit an electronic version of original, unpublished manuscripts, not to exceed 8 double-columned, single-spaced pages, to the workshop. Submitted papers should be in PDF format in accordance with IEEE Computer Society guidelines, and will be refereed by reviewers in terms of originality, contribution, correctness, and presentation. --000e0cd23b9e1a7de704ab921f15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=Big5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

[Apologie= s if you receive multiple copies of this message]

 

* Deadlin= e extended to August 30, 2011 (Firm Deadline)*

 

CALL FOR = PAPERS

=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
The 5th Intern= ational Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Networked Virtual Environments (P2P-NVE 20= 11)

in conjunction with

The 17th International Conference on Paralle= l and Distributed Systems (ICPADS 2011)

December 7-9, 2011
Tainan= , Taiwan

http://acnlab.csie.ncu.edu.tw/P2PNVE2011/
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
PURPO= SE AND SCOPE

Peer-to-peer (P2P) is a computing paradigm based on sel= f-organizing network overlays, in which participating entities play symmetr= ic roles as both servers and clients for accomplish common goals. Compared = with the traditional client/server (C/S) paradigm, the P2P paradigm is not = vulnerable to a single point of failure and has better scalability and lowe= r installation and management cost. It has been successfully applied to man= y applications, such as data sharing, storage sharing, bandwidth sharing, c= ollaborative computation, and so on. Many research studies have been devote= d to developing efficient, flexible, and secure P2P systems. They call for = a workshop to provide a forum for researchers to exchange their ideas about= state-of-the-art P2P technologies. Recently, some studies try to apply the= P2P paradigm to network virtual environments (NVEs), which is also known a= s distributed virtual environment (DVEs) or collaborative virtual environme= nt (CVEs), to increase NVE scalability and to reduce NVE management and dep= loyment costs. An NVE is a computer-generated virtual world where multiple = users can assume virtual representatives (or avatars) to concurrently inter= act with each other via networked links. Examples of NVEs include early DAR= PA SIMNET and DIS systems as well as currently booming Massively Multiplaye= r Online Games (MMOGs). Typical examples of studies on P2P NVEs are P2P voi= ce chatting, P2P 3D streaming, P2P game state management, and so on. In spi= te of the success of the studies, we need more studies about state consiste= ncy control, persistent data storage, multimedia data dissemination, cheat-= prevention, topology mismatching, and virtual world interoperability to con= struct NVEs of better performance.

The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th International Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Networ= ked Virtual Environments were held in conjunction with the 13th, 14th, 15th= and 16th International Conference on Parallel and Distributed Systems in 2= 007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 respectively. To adhere to the theme of P2P-NVE w= orkshops, the theme of P2P-NVE 2011 is to solicit original and previously u= npublished new ideas on general P2P schemes as well as on the design and re= alization of P2P NVEs. The workshop aims to facilitate discussions and idea= exchanges by both academics and practitioners. Authors are invited to subm= it an electronic version of original, unpublished manuscripts, not to excee= d 8 double-columned, single-spaced pages, to the workshop. Submitted papers= should be in accordance with IEEE Computer Society guidelines, and will be= refereed by reviewers in terms of relevance, originality, contribution, co= rrectness, and presentation. All Accepted papers will be published by IEEE = Press (indexed by EI) and will be included in IEEE Xplore.


Topics of interest include, but are not limited to:


* &n= bsp; P2P systems and infrastructures
*   Applications of P2P system= s
*   Performance evaluation of P2P systems
*   Trust and s= ecurity issues in P2P systems
*   Network support for P2P systems
*   Fault tolerance in P2P= systems
*   Data structures for P2P systems
*   Efficient = P2P resource lookup and sharing
*   Distributed Hash Tables (DHTs) = and related issues
*   Solutions to topology mismatching for P2P overlays
*   P2P= overlays for NVEs
*   P2P NVE multicast
*   P2P NVE intero= perability
*   P2P NVE content distribution
*   P2P NVE 3D = streaming
*   P2P NVE voice communications
*   P2P NVE architecture designs
*   P2P NVE prototypes
* &= nbsp; P2P NVE consistency control
*   Persistent storage for P2P NV= Es
*   Security and cheat-prevention mechanisms for P2P games
* =   P2P control for mobile NVEs
*   P2P NVE applications on mobile devices

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
IMPORTANT DATES

Submission: &nb= sp;             August 30, 2011 (Firm De= adline)
Notification:           &= nbsp;  September 25, 2011
Camera ready:           October 7, 2011
=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

PAPER SUBMISSION
Authors are invited to submit an electronic version of original, unpub= lished manuscripts, not to exceed 8 double-columned, single-spaced pages, t= o the workshop. Submitted papers should be in PDF format in accordance with= IEEE Computer Society guidelines, and will be refereed by reviewers in ter= ms of originality, contribution, correctness, and presentation.

 

 --000e0cd23b9e1a7de704ab921f15-- From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Mon Aug 29 05:01:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A5D21F8AD6 for ; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 05:01:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.139 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.139 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.750, BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4aeEB1mUq5gA for ; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 05:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7FD21F86C0 for ; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 05:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p7TC2wOI028737 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:02:58 +0200 Received: from demuexc025.nsn-intra.net (demuexc025.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.12]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p7TC2rXq012336; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:02:58 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc025.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:02:57 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC6643.976EA765" Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:02:56 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <201108231032130037515@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 Thread-Index: AcxhPQDDna+f9Y+gSXi1RSVuasEMZQFA2Qww References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> <201108231032130037515@chinamobile.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext zhangyunfei" , "Martin Stiemerling" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2011 12:02:57.0766 (UTC) FILETIME=[97829060:01CC6643] Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:01:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC6643.976EA765 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Martin, Yunfei, =20 In PPSP overview we have just a hint to the problem statement ID.: In PPSP requirements we have just a summary of security related = requirements. But I did not found an ID describing security threats / problems due to = the usage of p2p technology for streaming. I think we need such a general description and the problem statement ID = seems to be the best place for it. =20 The actual version covers security problem description and points = towards possible solutions (it is not a solution description). The responsibility for proper method selection should be done in the = related protocol descriptions (tracker / peer). =20 What do you think about this proposal? =20 Best Regards Christian =20 =20 =20 =20 6. Security Considerations =20 PPSP will not attempt to provide a solution on security and copyright issues like malicious content distribution, content pollution and DRM for a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP security involves the security problems related to PPSP protocols. The protocol documents will contain a complete description on the security/privacy issues relevant to any usage of PPSP. =20 6.1. Tracker Protocol =20 Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to the trackers by sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. Distributed trackers deployment may alleviate the problem. For protection against denial of service attacks, standard security methods can be used. =20 Malicious peers may report fake information on behalf of other peers. This can be avoided with peer authentication. =20 Malicious peers may report fake information about available content. For this purpose, malicious peers can be reported to the tracker. =20 Malicious tracker, especially distributed version, can be very harmful. =20 The malicious acting tracker may reply instead of the regular tracker (man in the middle attack). To avoid this tracker authentication could be used. =20 The malicious acting tracker may reply the peers with fake peer-list. Peers may find they cannot find desired data with the fake peer-list. =20 6.2. Peer Protocol =20 Similar to the behavior in the tracker-peer interaction, malicious peers may also create fake information on chunk availability and exchange it with other peers. Some techniques to check the data integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for detecting the attack. =20 6.3. Solution for Security Threats / Problems. The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and = the tracker protocol, will=20 Choose and document adequate methods to solve this security = issues in a proper way. =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:32 AM To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Hi Martin, Thanks so much for the proposoal. Let me make sure your meaning: Do = you mean we'd better have a very high-level description on the PPSP = secuirty threats and possible solutions, instead of having a detailed = description on the peer and tracker protocol security issues, right? =20 BR Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-08-23 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-22 20:41:53 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Hi Yunfei,=20 =20 Here is the text proposal for the security section. It is fairly short = but should suffice the considerations for the problem statement. I have = included the =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to the = scope; this is included in the current text. However, it will be = necessary to document what the threat to the content distribution is, = e.g., to not forward chunks or exchange chunks with bogus data; and also = to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, etc).=20 =20 Here you go: =20 6. Security Considerations =20 This memo discusses the problem statement around a peer-to-peer = streaming protocols without specifying the protocols. The protocol = specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP = working group. =20 The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the = tracker protocol, will document the expected threats and how they will = be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and = mitigations when combining both protocols in an application. This will = include privacy of the users, protection of the content distribution, = but not protection of the content by Digital Rights Management (DRM).=20 =20 Martin =20 From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 AM To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Hi Martin, Thanks for the careful review. Please see inline for the reply. BR Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-08-16 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-15 21:06:14 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 [Writing not as WG chair, but as individual contributor] =20 Dear all, =20 I have reviewed the draft draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 and = did mainly find editorial issues. =20 =20 Non-Editorials: - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, " With PPSP, P2P cache can = detect P2P streaming applications much easier without needing = to update its library."; It might not be completely obvious = to an average reader why a standarizded P2P protocol would = make things easier here. How about adding at the end of this = sentence: ", as there is only a single protocol to be = detected and not a potentially unknown set of proprietary P2P = protocols". =20 =20 [Yunfei]Good proposal! - Section 3.2, 1st paragraph, 1st sentence. I cannot see the = relationship between the section's intended scope and DONA or = any other content centric networking. =20 [Yunfei] Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stream = content(including using P2P)will account a lot in future network is a = trend. But maybe we can replace the trend by actual figures(e.g, in = section1, cisco figures)to avoid the misleading sentence. - Section 3.2, 3rd paragraph, You lost me with the everything = after the first sentence of this paragraph. I don't understand = what it is saying or what it should be saying. =20 [Yunfei] The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexity of the = case by case adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this = part. - Section 3.3, 1st paragraph, The first sentence about = "mobility and wireless are becoming increasingly dominate " is = basically reflecting the current situation, but what is the = relationship to the future Internet activities mentioned there? = The mobile and wireless part is already sort of dominant by = today. [Yunfei] Good question. Similar to section 3.1, replace "trend" by = "fact". - Section 3.4, 2nd paragraph: I know what this paragraph is = aiming at, i.e., reusing the same library and potentially other = optimizations. But it would be better to rephrase the = paragraph. E.g., "PPSP can help to reduce the resource = consumption on resource constraint devices, such as STBs or = mobile phones, by reusing a PPSP base library and ..." [Yunfei] Fine for the change. =20 - Security section: =20 I'm not sure that the current security section is exactly what = we need for the problem statement. It is on one hand = detailed on the threat description (e.g., "peers may report = fake information about available content"), but on the other = side lacks the description of countermeasures to those threats. = I would propose to rewrite the security section to cover a = broader focus on highlighting certain threats, but letting the = fix to those to the particular protocol specifications, i.e., = the peer protocol and the tracker protocol. =20 I can provide some initial text, if there is an agreement to = replace the security section. =20 [Yunfei] Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on = broadening the section. And would ask Christian for more comments. =20 Editorials (mainly suggestions to improve readability): - General: There are many places where the dots are misplaced, = e.g., in - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, " paradigm [Survey].The". This = should read "paradigm [Survey]. The" (space between dot and = The) - Which Internet draft template is being used for this draft? = The new templates have the "Abstract" before the part on " = Status of this Memo" and " Copyright Notice". =20 - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, comma missing, replace "like CNN = [CNN] PPstream" with "like CNN [CNN], PPstream" - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, replace "Client-Server" with = "client-server". The spelling of this is not consistent in the = draft. - Section 1, 4th paragraph, replace "Almost all these systems" = with " Almost all of these systems". - Section 1, 4th paragraph, replace "P2P streaming, the open = protocols will dynamically reduce " with "P2P streaming, open = protocols may reduce " - Section 2, paragraph starting with "PPSP", replace "The = abbreviation of P2P streaming protocols" with "The abbreviation = of Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocols" - Section 2, paragraph starting with "Tracker", replace "list = of peers storing chunks for a specific channel or streaming = file" with "list of peers which participate in a specific = video channel or in the distribution of a streaming file". =20 - Section 2, paragraph starting with "Tracker", replace "from = peers for peer lists" with "from peers with a list of = candidate peers". - Section 3, 1st paragraph, replace "The problems brought by = proprietary" with "The problems imposed by proprietary" - Section 3.1, title of this section, replace "Difficulties for = ISP in deploying P2P caches" with "Difficulties for ISPs in = deploying P2P caches" - Section 3.1, 1st paragraph, replace "P2P cache is used to = reduce the" with "P2P caches are used to reduce the" or "P2P = caching is used to reduce the" - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, replace "With PPSP, P2P cache = can detect" with "With PPSP, a P2P cache can detect" - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, the last sentence, there are two = commas between "tracker/peer protocol" and "which is easier..." - Section 3.2, 2nd paragraph, replace "Similar to the cache = case, this" with "Similar to the caching case in Section 3.1, = this" - Section 3.3, 1st paragraph, last sentence, the dot at the = end is missing. =20 - Section 3.3, 2nd paragraph, page 10, replace "trackers and = peers need more information" with "trackers and peers may need = more information" - Section 3.3, 2nd paragraph, page 10, there is terminology = collision, as serving gateway is translated to GGSN. A change = of a SGSN will not be noticed by the terminal. Moving to a = new GGSN might be. However, moving to a new GGSN might be = experience like any other event where the IP address changes. =20 - Section 3.4, 1st paragraph, replace "In other word" with "In = other words" - Section 3.4, 1st paragraph, replace "multiple programs in one = resource constraint" with "multiple programs in a resource = constraint" - Section 4, 1st paragraph: replace full 1st paragraph with "The objective of the PPSP working group is to design a = unified peer- to-peer streaming protocol (PPSP) to address the = problems discussed in the preceding sections." - Section 4, 3rd paragraph: replace "and then retrieve for = wanted streaming" with "and then retrieve the wanted streaming" - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace " topology e.g., a tree." = With " topology, e.g., a tree." - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace "(maybe with recommended = order)" with "(potentially in a recommended order)" - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace "Few practical systems" = with "Few commercially deployed" - Section 4, 5th paragraph: what is "unfounded data"? - Section 4, 6th paragraph: move this paragraph to page 12 = before paragraph starting with "In detail," - Section 4, last paragraph, page 12: I'm not sure that we = still need this paragraph. Can we remove it? - Section 5, 1st paragraph, there is a leftover: " ". - Section 5.2, 1st paragraph, replace "Also it can also talk" = with "It can also communicate" - Section 5.3, 2nd paragraph, replace " With PPSP Peers can = identify the types of access networks, their load/congestion = information" with " With PPSP, peers may be able to identify = the type of access networks, average load". Do not include = congestion information, as this information is anyhow too = volatile to be tracked by some entity of the peer network, = other than the peers which are anyhow directly communicating = with each other. - Section 5.3, 2nd paragraph, replace "be selected, which will = lead to" with "be selected, which may lead to" - Section 5.5, 1st paragraph, replace "section3" with "Section = 3" - Section 5.5, 1st paragraph, replace "nodes in the network" = with "nodes at the network" - Reference section: This section does not follow the style of = references as used in the RFC series and needs to be = updated. =20 [Yunfei]I'll update these editorial issues in new version draft. =20 Kind regards =20 Martin =20 martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu =20 NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe = Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London = W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC6643.976EA765 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Martin, Yunfei,

 

In PPSP overview we have just a hint to the problem statement = ID.:

In PPSP requirements we have just a summary of security related = requirements.

But I did not found an ID describing security threats / problems due = to the usage of p2p technology for streaming.

I think we need such a general description and the problem statement = ID seems to be the best place for it.

 

The actual version covers security problem description and points = towards possible solutions (it is not a solution = description).

The responsibility for proper method selection should be done in the = related protocol descriptions (tracker / peer).

 

What do you think about this proposal?

 

Best Regards

Christian

 

 

 

 

6. Security = Considerations

 

   PPSP will not attempt to provide a solution on = security and copyright

   issues like malicious content distribution, content = pollution and DRM

   for a general P2P = streaming system. Instead PPSP security involves

   the security problems related to PPSP protocols. The = protocol

   documents will contain = a complete description on the security/privacy

   issues relevant to any usage of = PPSP.

 

6.1. = Tracker Protocol

 

   Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to = the trackers by

   sending large amount of = requests with tracker protocol. Distributed

   trackers deployment may alleviate the problem. For = protection against

   denial of service = attacks, standard security methods can be used.

 

   Malicious peers may = report fake information on behalf of other = peers.

   This can be avoided = with peer authentication.

 

   Malicious peers may = report fake information about available content.

   For this purpose, malicious peers can be reported to = the tracker.

 

   Malicious tracker, especially distributed version, = can be very

   = harmful.

 

   The malicious acting tracker may reply instead of the = regular tracker

   (man in the middle = attack). To avoid this tracker authentication

   could be used.

 

   The malicious acting = tracker may reply the peers with fake peer-list.

   Peers may find they cannot find desired data with the = fake peer-list.

 

6.2. Peer = Protocol

 

   Similar to the behavior in the tracker-peer = interaction, malicious

   peers may also create fake information on chunk = availability and

   exchange it with other = peers. Some techniques to check the data

   integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for = detecting the

   = attack.

 

6.3. Solution for Security Threats / = Problems.

        The PPSP protocol = specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker protocol, will =

        Choose and document = adequate methods to solve this security issues in a proper = way.

 

 

 

 

 

From:= = ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:32 = AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: = Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

= Hi Martin,

=    Thanks so much for the proposoal. Let me make sure your = meaning: Do you mean we'd better have a very high-level description on = the PPSP secuirty threats and possible solutions, instead of having a = detailed description on the peer and tracker protocol security issues, = right?

=    

= BR

= Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-08-23

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin = Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3= =BA = 2011-08-22 20:41:53

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA = zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: = [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Hi Yunfei,

 

Here is the text proposal for the security section. It is fairly = short but should suffice the considerations for the problem statement. I = have included the =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to = the scope; this is included in the current text. However, it will be = necessary to document what the threat to the content distribution is, = e.g., to not forward chunks or exchange chunks with bogus data; and also = to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, etc). =

 

Here you go:

 

6. Security Considerations

 

This memo discusses the problem statement around a peer-to-peer = streaming protocols without specifying the protocols. The protocol = specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP = working group.

 

The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the = tracker protocol, will document the expected threats and how they will = be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and = mitigations when combining both protocols in an application. This will = include privacy of the users, protection of the content distribution, = but not protection of the content by Digital Rights Management (DRM). =

 

  Martin

 

From:= = zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
Sent: = Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; = ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

= Hi Martin,

= Thanks for the careful review. Please see inline for the = reply.

= BR

= Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-08-16

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin = Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3= =BA = 2011-08-15 21:06:14

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA = ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] = WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

[Writing =  not  as  WG  chair,  but  as =  individual  contributor]

 

Dear =  all,

 

I =  have  reviewed  the  draft =  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03  and  did =  mainly  find  editorial  issues. =  

 

Non-Editori= als:

- =  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  "   =  With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect =  P2P  streaming  applications  much   =  easier  without  needing  to  update  its =  library.";  It  might  not  be =  completely    obvious  to  an  average =  reader  why  a  standarizded  P2P =  protocol  would  make  things  easier =  here.  How  about  adding  at  the =  end  of  this  sentence:  ",  as =  there  is  only  a  single  protocol =  to  be  detected  and  not  a =  potentially  unknown  set  of  proprietary =  P2P  protocols". =  

  =

= [Yunfei]Good proposal!

- =  Section  3.2,  1st  paragraph,  1st =  sentence.  I  cannot  see  the =  relationship  between  the  section's =  intended  scope  and  DONA  or  any =  other  content  centric  networking. =  

= [Yunfei] Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stream = content(including using P2P)will account a lot in future network is a = trend. But maybe we can replace the trend by actual figures(e.g, in = section1, cisco figures)to avoid the misleading = sentence.

- =  Section  3.2,  3rd  paragraph,  You  lost =  me  with  the  everything  after  the =  first  sentence  of  this  paragraph.  I =  don't  understand  what  it  is  saying =  or  what  it  should  be  saying. =  

= [Yunfei] The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexity of the = case by case adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this = part.

- =  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  The =  first  sentence  about  "mobility  and =  wireless  are  becoming  increasingly =  dominate  "  is  basically  reflecting =  the  current  situation,  but  what  is =  the  relationship  to  the  future =  Internet  activities  mentioned  there?  The =  mobile  and  wireless  part  is  already =  sort  of  dominant  by =  today.

= [Yunfei] Good question. Similar to  section 3.1, replace = "trend" by = "fact".

- =  Section  3.4,  2nd  paragraph:  I  know =  what  this  paragraph  is  aiming  at, =  i.e.,  reusing  the  same  library  and =  potentially  other  optimizations.  But  it =  would  be  better  to  rephrase  the =  paragraph.  E.g.,  "PPSP  can  help =  to  reduce  the  resource  consumption =  on  resource  constraint  devices,  such =  as  STBs  or  mobile  phones,  by =  reusing  a  PPSP  base  library  and =  ..."

= [Yunfei] Fine for the change.

 

- =  Security  section:  

I'm =  not  sure  that  the  current  security =  section  is  exactly  what  we  need =  for  the  problem  statement.  It  is =  on  one  hand  detailed  on  the =  threat  description  (e.g.,  "peers  may =  report  fake  information  about  available =  content"),  but  on  the  other =  side  lacks  the  description  of =  countermeasures  to  those  threats. =  

I =  would  propose  to  rewrite  the =  security  section  to  cover  a  broader =  focus  on  highlighting  certain  threats, =  but  letting  the  fix  to  those =  to  the  particular  protocol  specifications, =  i.e.,  the  peer  protocol  and  the =  tracker  protocol.

 

I =  can  provide  some  initial  text,  if =  there  is  an  agreement  to  replace =  the  security  section. =  

= [Yunfei] Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on = broadening the section. And would ask Christian for more = comments.

 

Editorials =  (mainly  suggestions  to  improve =  readability):

- =  General:  There  are  many  places  where =  the  dots  are  misplaced,  e.g., =  in

 - =  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  " =  paradigm  [Survey].The".  This  should =  read  "paradigm  [Survey].  The" =  (space  between  dot  and =  The)

- =  Which  Internet  draft  template  is =  being  used  for  this  draft?  The =  new  templates  have  the =  "Abstract"    before  the  part =  on  "  Status  of  this  Memo" =  and  "  Copyright  Notice". =  

- =  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  comma =  missing,  replace  "like  CNN  [CNN] =  PPstream"  with  "like  CNN  [CNN], =  PPstream"

- =  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "Client-Server"  with =  "client-server".  The  spelling  of =  this  is  not  consistent  in  the =  draft.

- =  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace =  "Almost  all  these  systems"  with =  "  Almost  all  of  these =  systems".

- =  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace =  "P2P  streaming,  the  open  protocols =  will  dynamically  reduce    "  with =  "P2P  streaming,  open  protocols  may =  reduce  "

- =  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with =  "PPSP",  replace  "The  abbreviation =  of  P2P  streaming  protocols"  with =  "The  abbreviation  of  Peer-to-Peer =  Streaming  Protocols"

- =  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with =  "Tracker",  replace  "list  of =  peers  storing  chunks  for  a  specific =  channel  or  streaming  file"  with =  "list  of  peers  which  participate =  in  a  specific  video  channel  or =  in  the  distribution  of  a  streaming =  file".  

- =  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with =  "Tracker",  replace  "from  peers =  for  peer  lists"  with  "from =  peers  with  a  list  of  candidate =  peers".

- =  Section  3,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "The  problems  brought  by =  proprietary"  with  "The  problems =  imposed  by =  proprietary"

- =  Section  3.1,  title  of  this  section, =  replace  "Difficulties  for  ISP  in =  deploying  P2P  caches"  with =  "Difficulties  for  ISPs  in  deploying =  P2P  caches"

- =  Section  3.1,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "P2P    cache  is  used  to =  reduce  the"  with  "P2P  caches =  are  used  to  reduce  the"  or =  "P2P      caching  is  used  to =  reduce  the"

- =  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can =  detect"  with  "With  PPSP,  a =  P2P  cache  can =  detect"

- =  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  the  last =  sentence,  there  are  two  commas =  between  "tracker/peer  protocol"  and =  "which  is =  easier..."

- =  Section  3.2,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "Similar  to  the  cache  case, =  this"  with  "Similar  to  the =  caching  case  in  Section  3.1, =  this"

- =  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  last =  sentence,  the  dot  at  the  end =  is  missing.  

- =  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10, =  replace  "trackers  and  peers  need =  more  information"  with  "trackers =  and  peers  may  need  more =  information"

- =  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10, =  there  is  terminology  collision,  as =  serving  gateway  is  translated  to =  GGSN.  A  change  of  a  SGSN  will =  not  be  noticed  by  the  terminal. =  Moving  to  a  new  GGSN  might  be. =  However,  moving  to  a  new  GGSN =  might  be  experience  like  any  other =  event  where  the  IP  address  changes. =  

- =  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "In  other  word"  with  "In =  other  words"

- =  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "multiple  programs  in  one  resource =  constraint"  with  "multiple  programs =  in  a  resource =  constraint"

- =  Section  4,  1st  paragraph:  replace =  full  1st  paragraph =  with

"The =  objective  of  the  PPSP  working  group =  is  to  design  a  unified  peer- =  to-peer  streaming  protocol  (PPSP)  to =  address  the  problems  discussed  in =  the  preceding =  sections."

- =  Section  4,  3rd  paragraph:  replace =  "and  then  retrieve  for  wanted =  streaming"  with  "and  then =  retrieve  the  wanted =  streaming"

- =  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace =  "  topology  e.g.,  a  tree." =  With  "  topology,  e.g.,  a =  tree."

- =  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace =  "(maybe  with  recommended  order)" =  with  "(potentially  in  a  recommended =  order)"

- =  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace =  "Few  practical  systems"  with =  "Few  commercially =  deployed"

- =  Section  4,  5th  paragraph:  what  is =  "unfounded =  data"?

- =  Section  4,  6th  paragraph:  move  this =  paragraph  to  page  12  before =  paragraph  starting  with  "In =  detail,"

- =  Section  4,  last  paragraph,  page  12: =  I'm  not  sure  that  we  still =  need  this  paragraph.  Can  we  remove =  it?

- =  Section  5,  1st  paragraph,  there  is =  a  leftover:  "   <Text  for =  this  section >".

- =  Section  5.2,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "Also  it  can  also  talk" =  with  "It  can  also =  communicate"

- =  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "  With  PPSP  Peers  can  identify =  the  types  of  access  networks,  their =  load/congestion  information"  with  " =  With  PPSP,  peers  may  be  able =  to  identify  the  type  of  access =  networks,  average  load".  Do  not =  include  congestion  information,  as  this =  information  is  anyhow  too  volatile =  to  be  tracked  by  some  entity =  of  the  peer  network,  other  than =  the  peers  which  are  anyhow  directly =  communicating  with  each =  other.

- =  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "be  selected,  which  will  lead =  to"  with  "be  selected,  which =  may  lead  to"

- =  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "section3"  with  "Section =  3"

- =  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "nodes  in  the  network"  with =  "nodes  at  the =  network"

- =  Reference  section:  This  section  does =  not  follow  the  style  of  references =  as  used  in  the  RFC  series  and =  needs  to  be =  updated.

 

= [Yunfei]I'll update these editorial issues in new version = draft.

 

Kind =  regards

 

  =  Martin

 

martin.stie= merling@neclab.eu

 

NEC =  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research =  Division  NEC  Europe  Limited  | =  Registered  Office:  NEC  House,  1 =  Victoria  Road,  London  W3  6BL  | =  Registered  in  England  2832014 =  

 

 

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