From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Sun Aug 19 18:56:30 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56E221F864A for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:56:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.19 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.656, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_19=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id okPpqmVDvdwI for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C6AD21F8644 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imss.chinamobile.com (localhost 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Hi folks,
    The following is an initial version of=20 PPSP notes in IETF 84. Thanks Martin for taking the no= tes.=20 Please feel free to send emails to Stefano and me if you have any modifica= tion=20 or update on the notes. Thanks.
 
BR
Yunfei and Stefano
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ppsp session at IETF-84
 
Note taker: Martin Stiemerling (martin.stiemerlin= g@neclab.eu)
 
     PPSP Agenda #IETF 84&nbs= p;
Georgia A,WEDNESDAY, August 1, 2012
 
09:00 Agenda bashing (Chairs, 5 minutes)
09:05 Status of the WG (Chairs, 5 = minutes)
09:10 Peer Protocol (Johan Pouwelse, 40 = ;minutes)
      draft-ietf-ppsp-peer-protocol-02<= /DIV>
Fabio: Question about previous slide (Exampl= e PPSP).
Does the 'hints' make the protocol a&nb= sp;pull protocol?
Johan: Is it hybrid?
Fabio: Push protocol would either send = the data/tokwn right away to B. Want to=  sent chunk and does if ok. Token = means, A sends token to B. gonna send&n= bsp;chunk right away.  B will respond w= ith a chunk.
Pull based, B tells A, when you ha= ve time, send a chunk you are hinting&n= bsp;to. 
Johanr: call it not HINT but Request.
(further discussion are taken taken offline.= )
Fabio: important to support pull/push, and&n= bsp;hybrid.
Martin: please limit presentation to protoco= l not your implementation
Johan: Overly ads, will back up
Yunfei: ledbat congestion control?
Wes: ledbat isn't necessary good for st= reaming, as you need a certain rate. no= t really good. Spec should say: must do=  something, if ledbat ...  
replace ledbat over the long run in&nbs= p;the spec, but ledbat the only thing w= e have right now.
Johan: showing congestion control box on&nbs= p;block diagram. could be replaced. streaming&nbs= p;related, upload peer side, can we measure&= nbsp;on upload side ledbat friendlyness.... 
Fabio: the other day was the talk = about problems that ledbat can occur.
should look for potential issues with l= edbat. generic congestion control? We need t= o think about it.
Johan: We or someone else?
Fabio: need to think about question.
Wes: If you do ledbat, need machinery&n= bsp;to compute one way delay. Fine with = ;the system as it is. spec 'must do&nbs= p;something, should do ledbat'.
There is a BOF tomorrow on RMCAT. = Whatever is coming out of that, might b= e new mechanisms...
Stefano: Lack of energy, at this point&= nbsp;just go ahead with the document. if&nbs= p;anything has something to say, just move&n= bsp;on. 
Johan: Policy is, if no one opposing,&n= bsp;just go ahead.
Yunfei: Question about #43 auth scheme = wrt overhead? Need to sign every chunk?
Johan: block of chunks or single chunk?=  Not sure avout excat state of this&nbs= p;is?
Fabio: Clarifyin question: overhead of compu= ting or bandwidth?
Yunfei: both
Fabio: Regardless of what overhead is, = signing all options is good. latency advanta= ge. 
Yunfei: Good news, people will asking q= uestions, if ppsp is on your mobile dev= ices. People general think contributing to o= ther peers will consume more power, compared=  to client/server mode.
Martin: Any other implementation? (no one&nb= sp;with another implementation is in the roo= m)
Stefano: Good to have already one!
Stefano: Since you (Johan) have an impl= ementaiton, it would be good to document&nbs= p;it in an implementation report.  
Johan: Good to have somebody else to&nb= sp;have an implementation.
Johan: have done simulation and measuremnts&= nbsp;in the wild.
Martin: Livestreaming at the next IETF?
Johan: Was done in large scale with&nbs= p;pplive, etc. Would need more resources to&= nbsp;make it.
Stefano: How to operate this proto in&n= bsp;private environments. 
(scribe did miss what was said)
Stefano: analog to routing protocol. would&n= bsp;helped there experiencing description,  detai= ls you missed or you worked out.
James: only suggestion to make, we shou= ld pay attention to managment of the pr= otocol. Know how to treat things if som= ething goes wrong.
Johan: (missed what he said)
Fabio: How many lines of code is a= n implementation roughly. 
Johan: roughly 10,000 lines of code or&= nbsp;less. 
 
 
09:50 Tracker Protocol (Yingjie, 30 minutes)=
      draft-cruz-ppsp-base-tracker-prot= ocol-00 
Martin: Why is the peer's IP address&nb= sp;put in the tracker protocol
Yingjie: To know whether the peer is&nb= sp;behind NAT or not
Martin: Send back the IP address of&nbs= p;the peer as seen in the tracker. Peer=  can find out on his own if behind=  NAT.
Yunfei: Can you elaborate on the peer&n= bsp;ID?
Yingjie: (missed what he said)
Yunfei: Didnot see the unique requirement&nb= sp;for peer ID?
Yingjie: PeerId is used to identify a&n= bsp;peer, if it is not globally unqe, t= ypcally unique in local tracker. 
Yunfei: use public IP plux X to ge= nerate globally unique
Stefano: Issue in many protocols, relying&nb= sp;on IP is not enough. Could be reused=  partially to create unqieu ID. Use dif= ferent fields that make a unique ID, IP=  address can be part of the game.
Yunfei: do you need the port informatio= n?
Yingjie: there should be port information,&n= bsp;do remember this.
 
Johan: commenting also on the mailing l= ist. binary implementation of this?
to better support mobile devices? opinions?<= /DIV>
Yingjie: still not clear about question?
Johan: xml encoding, needs a parser. bi= g tracker will require computation power wit= h xml. lightweight udp tracker protocol
James: xml could be expensive
Yingjie: long discissoin on the list. c= onclusion was to go for text based.
Wes: no http, doesn't solve the problem= . http header do not add anything to&nb= sp;it. just send the messages, independet of=  xml, json, whatever.
Stefano: separation of base and extended&nbs= p;is good, want feedback.
Martin: about split ok, but overall qua= lity needs to be improved
Fabio: agress with said before. need no=  http, lighter encoding. if argument for&nbs= p;http, would be good to hear it. same&= nbsp;for xml, json. base functionality is fi= ne. work on encoding issue and this as&= nbsp;base functionality is fine. 
Stefan: are we ok with the functionalit= y? if we consider the func, is it = mature enough? Raised hand (majority). If pe= ople are fine with functions raise hand = ;(some). WG is fine functionality wise.
Stefano: How about encodind?
4 expressing concerns
Encoding as proposed is ok: 3
Stefano: decision not clear yet.
Stefano: same policy, no feedback is go= od feedback. cannot wait for years. 
 
 
10:20 Tracker Protocol Extension  (Rachel,15=  minutes)
      draft-huang-ppsp-extended-tracker= -protocol-00
Fabio: trying to understand the Registration=  message. message does fewer things than&nbs= p;the base version
Rachel: is different. (scribe didn't underst= ood the rest)
Fabio: may be I am missing something.&n= bsp;there is a connect message in the b= ase protocol. what is the diff between = connect and the registration message? 
Rachel: Biggst differecne is that that = it has registration meaning. will take it&nb= sp;offline.
Ning: it is called enhanced, it is = ;not more complex, more optional functionality&nb= sp;as compared to base draft. register does&= nbsp;not execute additional things.
 
Stefano: result of split. if anybody ha= s issues speak up right now. 
Let's give the entire working group in&= nbsp;the mailing list to see what is th= e feedback. 
Stefano: some reads some questions from = ;webex
Arno: security section of peer protocol?
rui: peer id discussion on the mic.&nbs= p;what is the best options?
Stefano: (scribe missed a part) 
Yunfei: any further comments or questions.
 
End of session at 10:52 local time.
 
 
 
 
zhangyunfei
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