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Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 18:54:07 -0700
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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] Recommend careful behavior around push streams (#4931)
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@martinthomson, can you expand on why you think the latter changes aren't good?  Noting that subpar things might happen if you abort reading seems like the RFC2119 definition of SHOULD NOT abort reading.  Certainly we can explain the SHOULD NOT more than we currently do.

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<p></p>
<p><a class="user-mention" data-hovercard-type="user" data-hovercard-url="/users/martinthomson/hovercard" data-octo-click="hovercard-link-click" data-octo-dimensions="link_type:self" href="https://github.com/martinthomson">@martinthomson</a>, can you expand on why you think the latter changes aren't good?  Noting that subpar things might happen if you abort reading seems like the RFC2119 definition of SHOULD NOT abort reading.  Certainly we can explain the SHOULD NOT more than we currently do.</p>

<p style="font-size:small;-webkit-text-size-adjust:none;color:#666;">&mdash;<br />You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.<br />Reply to this email directly, <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4931#issuecomment-890652322">view it on GitHub</a>, or <a href="https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AFTOJKZIPFQWTZ4KPBVDEM3T2X3D7ANCNFSM5BJAXU7Q">unsubscribe</a>.<img src="https://github.com/notifications/beacon/AFTOJKYLSN74ELTCBP3SFU3T2X3D7A5CNFSM5BJAXU72YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGOGULENIQ.gif" height="1" width="1" alt="" /></p>
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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] Recommend careful behavior around push streams (#4931)
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Fact is: clients will want to discard responses when the thing that asked for that response goes away.  You are saying that they SHOULD NOT do that.  But they are going to anyway.  I would rather we just say that if you have push enabled and you do that, you might be relying more heavily on your push ID timeouts to ensure that you properly handle missing push information.

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<p></p>
<p>Fact is: clients will want to discard responses when the thing that asked for that response goes away.  You are saying that they SHOULD NOT do that.  But they are going to anyway.  I would rather we just say that if you have push enabled and you do that, you might be relying more heavily on your push ID timeouts to ensure that you properly handle missing push information.</p>

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Subject: [quicwg/datagram] 8d85d4: update frame definition format
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  Branch: refs/heads/lucas/editorialize-frame-def
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/datagram
  Commit: 8d85d42748f9611d55f318153aa0d4e8b6354a91
      https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/commit/8d85d42748f9611d55f318153aa0d4e8b6354a91
  Author: lucas <lucas@cloudflare.com>
  Date:   2021-08-02 (Mon, 02 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-quic-datagram.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  update frame definition format



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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/datagram
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      https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/commit/7b7e668288b83b1e7132019531520535e165da43
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  Date:   2021-08-02 (Mon, 02 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
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I'm not saying anything about request streams; I agree that clients will want to discard requests they don't need any more and will potentially be discarding PUSH_PROMISE frames along with them.  The timeout in that case is fine.

What I'm specifically recommending in the text is that endpoints read far enough into a unidirectional stream (1-9 bytes) to discover the push ID and mark it consumed.  If they don't, the server might eventually become unable to push; no timeout will recover from that.

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<p></p>
<p>I'm not saying anything about request streams; I agree that clients will want to discard requests they don't need any more and will potentially be discarding PUSH_PROMISE frames along with them.  The timeout in that case is fine.</p>
<p>What I'm specifically recommending in the text is that endpoints read far enough into a unidirectional stream (1-9 bytes) to discover the push ID and mark it consumed.  If they don't, the server might eventually become unable to push; no timeout will recover from that.</p>

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@tatsuhiro-t approved this pull request.





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<p><b>@tatsuhiro-t</b> approved this pull request.</p>



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@afrind commented on this pull request.



> @@ -1132,6 +1133,10 @@ an error code of H3_STREAM_CREATION_ERROR or a reserved error code
 ({{http-error-codes}}), but MUST NOT consider such streams to be a connection
 error of any kind.
 
+As certain stream types can affect connection state, a recipient SHOULD NOT
+discard data from incoming unidirectional streams prior to reading the type
+byte.

Type can be longer than 1 byte (it's a varint)

> @@ -884,7 +884,8 @@ as-yet-unknown Push ID, both the associated client request and the pushed
 request header fields are unknown.  The client can buffer the stream data in
 expectation of the matching PUSH_PROMISE. The client can use stream flow control
 (see {{Section 4.1 of QUIC-TRANSPORT}}) to limit the amount of data a server may
-commit to the pushed stream.
+commit to the pushed stream.  Clients SHOULD discard data from push streams if

Does the client also abort reading the push stream if it is incomplete?

> @@ -1132,6 +1133,10 @@ an error code of H3_STREAM_CREATION_ERROR or a reserved error code
 ({{http-error-codes}}), but MUST NOT consider such streams to be a connection
 error of any kind.
 
+As certain stream types can affect connection state, a recipient SHOULD NOT
+discard data from incoming unidirectional streams prior to reading the type
+byte.

Same question about 'discard data' - is the client expected to read this stream until FIN/RST or can it abort?

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<p></p>
<p><b>@afrind</b> commented on this pull request.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4931#discussion_r681299795">draft-ietf-quic-http.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -1132,6 +1133,10 @@ an error code of H3_STREAM_CREATION_ERROR or a reserved error code
 ({{http-error-codes}}), but MUST NOT consider such streams to be a connection
 error of any kind.
 
+As certain stream types can affect connection state, a recipient SHOULD NOT
+discard data from incoming unidirectional streams prior to reading the type
+byte.
</pre>
<p>Type can be longer than 1 byte (it's a varint)</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4931#discussion_r681302319">draft-ietf-quic-http.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -884,7 +884,8 @@ as-yet-unknown Push ID, both the associated client request and the pushed
 request header fields are unknown.  The client can buffer the stream data in
 expectation of the matching PUSH_PROMISE. The client can use stream flow control
 (see {{Section 4.1 of QUIC-TRANSPORT}}) to limit the amount of data a server may
-commit to the pushed stream.
+commit to the pushed stream.  Clients SHOULD discard data from push streams if
</pre>
<p>Does the client also abort reading the push stream if it is incomplete?</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4931#discussion_r681302610">draft-ietf-quic-http.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -1132,6 +1133,10 @@ an error code of H3_STREAM_CREATION_ERROR or a reserved error code
 ({{http-error-codes}}), but MUST NOT consider such streams to be a connection
 error of any kind.
 
+As certain stream types can affect connection state, a recipient SHOULD NOT
+discard data from incoming unidirectional streams prior to reading the type
+byte.
</pre>
<p>Same question about 'discard data' - is the client expected to read this stream until FIN/RST or can it abort?</p>

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@martinthomson approved this pull request.

OK, with the explanation, this works for me.



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<p></p>
<p><b>@martinthomson</b> approved this pull request.</p>

<p>OK, with the explanation, this works for me.</p>

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@MikeBishop commented on this pull request.



> @@ -1132,6 +1133,10 @@ an error code of H3_STREAM_CREATION_ERROR or a reserved error code
 ({{http-error-codes}}), but MUST NOT consider such streams to be a connection
 error of any kind.
 
+As certain stream types can affect connection state, a recipient SHOULD NOT
+discard data from incoming unidirectional streams prior to reading the type
+byte.

The client is expected to read until it knows the type of the stream.  At that point, it's free to abort or continue reading based on that information.

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<p></p>
<p><b>@MikeBishop</b> commented on this pull request.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4931#discussion_r681805973">draft-ietf-quic-http.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -1132,6 +1133,10 @@ an error code of H3_STREAM_CREATION_ERROR or a reserved error code
 ({{http-error-codes}}), but MUST NOT consider such streams to be a connection
 error of any kind.
 
+As certain stream types can affect connection state, a recipient SHOULD NOT
+discard data from incoming unidirectional streams prior to reading the type
+byte.
</pre>
<p>The client is expected to read until it knows the type of the stream.  At that point, it's free to abort or continue reading based on that information.</p>

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@MikeBishop commented on this pull request.



> @@ -884,7 +884,8 @@ as-yet-unknown Push ID, both the associated client request and the pushed
 request header fields are unknown.  The client can buffer the stream data in
 expectation of the matching PUSH_PROMISE. The client can use stream flow control
 (see {{Section 4.1 of QUIC-TRANSPORT}}) to limit the amount of data a server may
-commit to the pushed stream.
+commit to the pushed stream.  Clients SHOULD discard data from push streams if

If what is incomplete?  The Push ID?  The response?

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<p></p>
<p><b>@MikeBishop</b> commented on this pull request.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4931#discussion_r681806545">draft-ietf-quic-http.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -884,7 +884,8 @@ as-yet-unknown Push ID, both the associated client request and the pushed
 request header fields are unknown.  The client can buffer the stream data in
 expectation of the matching PUSH_PROMISE. The client can use stream flow control
 (see {{Section 4.1 of QUIC-TRANSPORT}}) to limit the amount of data a server may
-commit to the pushed stream.
+commit to the pushed stream.  Clients SHOULD discard data from push streams if
</pre>
<p>If what is incomplete?  The Push ID?  The response?</p>

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Subject: [quicwg/base-drafts] c3b56a: Type is not a byte
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  Branch: refs/heads/http/push_guidance
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts
  Commit: c3b56a8677822a54c17ac47c1f0de5e562851599
      https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/commit/c3b56a8677822a54c17ac47c1f0de5e562851599
  Author: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
  Date:   2021-08-03 (Tue, 03 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-quic-http.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Type is not a byte



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@MikeBishop pushed 1 commit.

c3b56a8677822a54c17ac47c1f0de5e562851599  Type is not a byte


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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/MikeBishop" class=3D"user-mention">@Mike=
Bishop</a> pushed 1 commit.</p>

<ul>
  <li><a class=3D"commit-link" href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-dra=
fts/commit/c3b56a8677822a54c17ac47c1f0de5e562851599">c3b56a8</a>  Type is=
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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
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  Changed paths:
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    M push_guidance/draft-ietf-quic-qpack.html
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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] Recommend careful behavior around push streams (#4931)
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@afrind commented on this pull request.



> @@ -884,7 +884,8 @@ as-yet-unknown Push ID, both the associated client request and the pushed
 request header fields are unknown.  The client can buffer the stream data in
 expectation of the matching PUSH_PROMISE. The client can use stream flow control
 (see {{Section 4.1 of QUIC-TRANSPORT}}) to limit the amount of data a server may
-commit to the pushed stream.
+commit to the pushed stream.  Clients SHOULD discard data from push streams if

I think the PR is clear that a client needs to process any push stream at least as far as the push ID.  

The new text says the client should 'discard data' if the matching PUSH_PROMISE doesn't arrive in a reasonable time.  Should the client also send a STOP_SENDING in this case?  By incomplete I meant 'had received the Push ID but not the FIN'

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<p></p>
<p><b>@afrind</b> commented on this pull request.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4931#discussion_r682125371">draft-ietf-quic-http.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -884,7 +884,8 @@ as-yet-unknown Push ID, both the associated client request and the pushed
 request header fields are unknown.  The client can buffer the stream data in
 expectation of the matching PUSH_PROMISE. The client can use stream flow control
 (see {{Section 4.1 of QUIC-TRANSPORT}}) to limit the amount of data a server may
-commit to the pushed stream.
+commit to the pushed stream.  Clients SHOULD discard data from push streams if
</pre>
<p>I think the PR is clear that a client needs to process any push stream at least as far as the push ID.</p>
<p>The new text says the client should 'discard data' if the matching PUSH_PROMISE doesn't arrive in a reasonable time.  Should the client also send a STOP_SENDING in this case?  By incomplete I meant 'had received the Push ID but not the FIN'</p>

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  Branch: refs/heads/http/http_not_semantics
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  Date:   2021-08-04 (Wed, 04 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-quic-http.md

  Log Message:
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  Track httpwg/http-core#907: SEMANTICS->HTTP



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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
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  Changed paths:
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Subject: [quicwg/base-drafts] Track httpwg/http-core#907: SEMANTICS->HTTP (#4932)
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In https://github.com/httpwg/http-core/pull/907, the http-core editors decided to use mostly the named anchors we&#39;ve used in this draft, but changed [SEMANTICS] to [HTTP].  This keeps the documents consistent by making the same change in HTTP/3.
You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:

  https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4932

-- Commit Summary --

  * Track httpwg/http-core#907: SEMANTICS-&gt;HTTP

-- File Changes --

    M draft-ietf-quic-http.md (64)

-- Patch Links --

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4932.patch
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4932.diff

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<p>In <a class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-error-text="Failed to load title" data-id="951943893" data-permission-text="Title is private" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-core/issues/907" data-hovercard-type="pull_request" data-hovercard-url="/httpwg/http-core/pull/907/hovercard" href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-core/pull/907">httpwg/http-core#907</a>, the http-core editors decided to use mostly the named anchors we've used in this draft, but changed [SEMANTICS] to [HTTP].  This keeps the documents consistent by making the same change in HTTP/3.</p>

<hr>

<h4>You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:</h4>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href='https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4932'>https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4932</a></p>

<h4>Commit Summary</h4>
<ul>
  <li>Track httpwg/http-core#907: SEMANTICS-&gt;HTTP</li>
</ul>

<h4>File Changes</h4>
<ul>
  <li>
    <strong>M</strong>
    <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4932/files#diff-c7364e57fd3b825f8342d91eabf4fa844f1c26127970ccb1af9a1a16a6598165">draft-ietf-quic-http.md</a>
    (64)
  </li>
</ul>

<h4>Patch Links:</h4>
<ul>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4932.patch'>https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4932.patch</a></li>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4932.diff'>https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4932.diff</a></li>
</ul>

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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] Ambiguity in section 5.2.2 of RFC 9000 (#4928)
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It's not implementation-dependent, but version-dependent.  "...if the packet is large enough to initiate a new connection for any supported version" reflects that the server might support 1..N versions of QUIC, each with their own minimum packet size.  We don't know what those minima might be; the minimum for *this* version [is 1200 bytes](https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9000#section-8.1).  The trouble is, here the client is speaking a version the server doesn't recognize, so the server can't know what the minimum is in the attempted version.

The solution is two matching rules.  On the server side, if the packet is large enough to represent a connection attempt for any version the server supports, it needs to treat it as a possible connection attempt and respond with a VN packet.  On the client side, we have this guidance:

>    The size of the first packet sent by a client will determine whether
>   a server sends a Version Negotiation packet.  Clients that support
>   multiple QUIC versions SHOULD ensure that the first UDP datagram they
>   send is sized to the largest of the minimum datagram sizes from all
>   versions they support, using PADDING frames (Section 19.1) as
>   necessary.  This ensures that the server responds if there is a
>   mutually supported version.  A server might not send a Version
>   Negotiation packet if the datagram it receives is smaller than the
>   minimum size specified in a different version; see Section 14.1.

That is, each QUIC version defines a minimum packet size.  A client's first packet will ensure that it satisfies the minimum packet size of all versions it supports, no matter what version it attempts on the first flight.  A server responds to connection attempts which are large enough to satisfy any version it supports.

That means if the client's first datagram wasn't large enough to trigger a VN packet, there was no version overlap anyway.

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<p></p>
<p>It's not implementation-dependent, but version-dependent.  "...if the packet is large enough to initiate a new connection for any supported version" reflects that the server might support 1..N versions of QUIC, each with their own minimum packet size.  We don't know what those minima might be; the minimum for <em>this</em> version <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9000#section-8.1" rel="nofollow">is 1200 bytes</a>.  The trouble is, here the client is speaking a version the server doesn't recognize, so the server can't know what the minimum is in the attempted version.</p>
<p>The solution is two matching rules.  On the server side, if the packet is large enough to represent a connection attempt for any version the server supports, it needs to treat it as a possible connection attempt and respond with a VN packet.  On the client side, we have this guidance:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>The size of the first packet sent by a client will determine whether<br>
a server sends a Version Negotiation packet.  Clients that support<br>
multiple QUIC versions SHOULD ensure that the first UDP datagram they<br>
send is sized to the largest of the minimum datagram sizes from all<br>
versions they support, using PADDING frames (Section 19.1) as<br>
necessary.  This ensures that the server responds if there is a<br>
mutually supported version.  A server might not send a Version<br>
Negotiation packet if the datagram it receives is smaller than the<br>
minimum size specified in a different version; see Section 14.1.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>That is, each QUIC version defines a minimum packet size.  A client's first packet will ensure that it satisfies the minimum packet size of all versions it supports, no matter what version it attempts on the first flight.  A server responds to connection attempts which are large enough to satisfy any version it supports.</p>
<p>That means if the client's first datagram wasn't large enough to trigger a VN packet, there was no version overlap anyway.</p>

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Subject: [quicwg/base-drafts] 0ce850: Explicit about aborting and discarding
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  Branch: refs/heads/http/push_guidance
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts
  Commit: 0ce850eb478ccd9bfac17b6759d7bca119b96d7c
      https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/commit/0ce850eb478ccd9bfac17b6759d7bca119b96d7c
  Author: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
  Date:   2021-08-04 (Wed, 04 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-quic-http.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Explicit about aborting and discarding



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@MikeBishop pushed 1 commit.

0ce850eb478ccd9bfac17b6759d7bca119b96d7c  Explicit about aborting and discarding


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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/MikeBishop" class=3D"user-mention">@Mike=
Bishop</a> pushed 1 commit.</p>

<ul>
  <li><a class=3D"commit-link" href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-dra=
fts/commit/0ce850eb478ccd9bfac17b6759d7bca119b96d7c">0ce850e</a>  Explici=
t about aborting and discarding</li>
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Subject: [quicwg/base-drafts] 531e14: Script updating gh-pages from 0ce850e. [ci skip]
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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts
  Commit: 531e14a803b548a37726b61c2c18e0d6126671b3
      https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/commit/531e14a803b548a37726b61c2c18e0d6126671b3
  Author: ID Bot <idbot@example.com>
  Date:   2021-08-04 (Wed, 04 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M push_guidance/draft-ietf-quic-http.html
    M push_guidance/draft-ietf-quic-http.txt
    M push_guidance/draft-ietf-quic-qpack.html
    M push_guidance/draft-ietf-quic-qpack.txt
    M push_guidance/rfc8999.html
    M push_guidance/rfc9000.html
    M push_guidance/rfc9001.html
    M push_guidance/rfc9001.txt
    M push_guidance/rfc9002.html

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Script updating gh-pages from 0ce850e. [ci skip]



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@MikeBishop commented on this pull request.



> @@ -884,7 +884,8 @@ as-yet-unknown Push ID, both the associated client request and the pushed
 request header fields are unknown.  The client can buffer the stream data in
 expectation of the matching PUSH_PROMISE. The client can use stream flow control
 (see {{Section 4.1 of QUIC-TRANSPORT}}) to limit the amount of data a server may
-commit to the pushed stream.
+commit to the pushed stream.  Clients SHOULD discard data from push streams if

Ah, I see.  Thanks for clarifying!  I think 0ce850eb addresses this better.

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<p></p>
<p><b>@MikeBishop</b> commented on this pull request.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4931#discussion_r682711300">draft-ietf-quic-http.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -884,7 +884,8 @@ as-yet-unknown Push ID, both the associated client request and the pushed
 request header fields are unknown.  The client can buffer the stream data in
 expectation of the matching PUSH_PROMISE. The client can use stream flow control
 (see {{Section 4.1 of QUIC-TRANSPORT}}) to limit the amount of data a server may
-commit to the pushed stream.
+commit to the pushed stream.  Clients SHOULD discard data from push streams if
</pre>
<p>Ah, I see.  Thanks for clarifying!  I think <a class="commit-link" data-hovercard-type="commit" data-hovercard-url="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/commit/0ce850eb478ccd9bfac17b6759d7bca119b96d7c/hovercard" href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/commit/0ce850eb478ccd9bfac17b6759d7bca119b96d7c"><tt>0ce850e</tt></a> addresses this better.</p>

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`absolute index` could make sense, but `Indexed Field Line` and `Literal Field Line With Name Reference` are better to use  `relative index`, because these are said as `relative index` when T=0 at line 1043 and 1098.
`post base index` as well. it would be better than `absolute index`.
Line 585 said this index as `Unlike in encoder instructions,  relative indices in field line representations are relative to the Base at the beginning of the encoded field section`
You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:

  https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933

-- Commit Summary --

  * Fix confusing indexing name

-- File Changes --

    M draft-ietf-quic-qpack.md (8)

-- Patch Links --

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933.patch
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933.diff

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<p><code>absolute index</code> could make sense, but <code>Indexed Field Line</code> and <code>Literal Field Line With Name Reference</code> are better to use  <code>relative index</code>, because these are said as <code>relative index</code> when T=0 at line 1043 and 1098.<br>
<code>post base index</code> as well. it would be better than <code>absolute index</code>.<br>
Line 585 said this index as <code>Unlike in encoder instructions,  relative indices in field line representations are relative to the Base at the beginning of the encoded field section</code></p>

<hr>

<h4>You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:</h4>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href='https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933'>https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933</a></p>

<h4>Commit Summary</h4>
<ul>
  <li>Fix confusing indexing name</li>
</ul>

<h4>File Changes</h4>
<ul>
  <li>
    <strong>M</strong>
    <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933/files#diff-4acd82381fb9e24a5b7699d69e05b8bf9fac8629e4dda1aafcf393751cd3700e">draft-ietf-quic-qpack.md</a>
    (8)
  </li>
</ul>

<h4>Patch Links:</h4>
<ul>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933.patch'>https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933.patch</a></li>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933.diff'>https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933.diff</a></li>
</ul>

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@MikeBishop requested changes on this pull request.

None of these changes are correct.  The point of the absolute index is that it's not changing -- these are the definitions of how other types of references map to an absolute index, and which absolute indices can be expressed by each reference type.

> @@ -1025,7 +1025,7 @@ entry.
 ### Indexed Field Line
 
 An indexed field line representation identifies an entry in the static table,
-or an entry in the dynamic table with an absolute index less than the value of
+or an entry in the dynamic table with an relative index less than the value of

No; the Base is an absolute index.  An Indexed Field Line of this type uses relative indices, and so can only reference a certain region of the table; this is describing which region.

> @@ -1047,7 +1047,7 @@ dynamic table.
 ### Indexed Field Line With Post-Base Index
 
 An indexed field line with post-base index representation identifies an entry
-in the dynamic table with an absolute index greater than or equal to the value
+in the dynamic table with an post base index greater than or equal to the value

Same here -- it makes no sense to say that the post-base index is greater than or equal to the value of the Base.

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<p></p>
<p><b>@MikeBishop</b> requested changes on this pull request.</p>

<p>None of these changes are correct.  The point of the absolute index is that it's not changing -- these are the definitions of how other types of references map to an absolute index, and which absolute indices can be expressed by each reference type.</p><hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933#discussion_r683492566">draft-ietf-quic-qpack.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -1025,7 +1025,7 @@ entry.
 ### Indexed Field Line
 
 An indexed field line representation identifies an entry in the static table,
-or an entry in the dynamic table with an absolute index less than the value of
+or an entry in the dynamic table with an relative index less than the value of
</pre>
<p>No; the Base is an absolute index.  An Indexed Field Line of this type uses relative indices, and so can only reference a certain region of the table; this is describing which region.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933#discussion_r683493099">draft-ietf-quic-qpack.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -1047,7 +1047,7 @@ dynamic table.
 ### Indexed Field Line With Post-Base Index
 
 An indexed field line with post-base index representation identifies an entry
-in the dynamic table with an absolute index greater than or equal to the value
+in the dynamic table with an post base index greater than or equal to the value
</pre>
<p>Same here -- it makes no sense to say that the post-base index is greater than or equal to the value of the Base.</p>

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  Branch: refs/heads/lucas/editorialize-frame-def
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  Branch: refs/heads/main
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/datagram
  Commit: 8d85d42748f9611d55f318153aa0d4e8b6354a91
      https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/commit/8d85d42748f9611d55f318153aa0d4e8b6354a91
  Author: lucas <lucas@cloudflare.com>
  Date:   2021-08-02 (Mon, 02 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
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  Log Message:
  -----------
  update frame definition format


  Commit: cf91259599049db38701447107ba331d8c6d2279
      https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/commit/cf91259599049db38701447107ba331d8c6d2279
  Author: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
  Date:   2021-08-06 (Fri, 06 Aug 2021)

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  Log Message:
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  Merge pull request #46 from quicwg/lucas/editorialize-frame-def

update frame definition format


Compare: https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/compare/67b81e9dcf21...cf9125959904


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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
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  Branch: refs/heads/tfpauly-patch-1
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/datagram
  Commit: 26c75bddd8b30496756815e93ad814cecc195092
      https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/commit/26c75bddd8b30496756815e93ad814cecc195092
  Author: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
  Date:   2021-08-06 (Fri, 06 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-quic-datagram.md

  Log Message:
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  Update draft-ietf-quic-datagram.md

Simplify pacing reference



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  Branch: refs/heads/tfpauly-patch-1
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  Branch: refs/heads/main
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  Commit: a5861739fbd88af875382a10d21c4264c998143a
      https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/commit/a5861739fbd88af875382a10d21c4264c998143a
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  Date:   2021-07-20 (Tue, 20 Jul 2021)

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  Rework pacing phrasing

Closes #32


  Commit: 26c75bddd8b30496756815e93ad814cecc195092
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  Update draft-ietf-quic-datagram.md

Simplify pacing reference


  Commit: 66f06a613154398ffc93f264d078a8b0bbed588b
      https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/commit/66f06a613154398ffc93f264d078a8b0bbed588b
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  Date:   2021-08-06 (Fri, 06 Aug 2021)

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  Merge pull request #36 from quicwg/tfpauly-patch-1


Compare: https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/compare/cf9125959904...66f06a613154


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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts
  Commit: 595d362833561cfc663b05e79f2a4e65a7a39631
      https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/commit/595d362833561cfc663b05e79f2a4e65a7a39631
  Author: ID Bot <idbot@example.com>
  Date:   2021-08-08 (Sun, 08 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M archive.json

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Script updating archive at 2021-08-08T00:04:32Z. [ci skip]



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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] Fix confusing indexing name (#4933)
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@ami-GS pushed 1 commit.

d17a28d4f3adc2792b8606082bdcead18781bd5a  Add detailed explanation


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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/ami-GS" class=3D"user-mention">@ami-GS</=
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How about this? should make sense more

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<p>How about this? should make sense more</p>

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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] Add detailed explanation (d17a28d)
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"an relative" in the original is unfortunate, but "which relative" -> "which is relative" here.

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<p></p>
<p>"an relative" in the original is unfortunate, but "which relative" -&gt; "which is relative" here.</p>

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This could be a general statement: Indices relative to the Base will always be numerically less than the value of the Base.

But you seem to be saying something else, which is that the absolute index of the referenced entries will be less than the Base.  (To contrast with Post-Base, where the absolute index of the referenced entries is greater than or equal to the Base.)

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<p></p>
<p>This could be a general statement: Indices relative to the Base will always be numerically less than the value of the Base.</p>
<p>But you seem to be saying something else, which is that the absolute index of the referenced entries will be less than the Base.  (To contrast with Post-Base, where the absolute index of the referenced entries is greater than or equal to the Base.)</p>

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@LPardue commented on this pull request.



> @@ -1193,6 +1198,10 @@ Push Stream Header {
 ~~~~~~~~~~
 {: #fig-push-stream-header title="Push Stream Header"}
 
+A client SHOULD NOT abort reading on a push stream prior to reading the Push ID,

Other parts of the doc use the style "reading on", so I'll remove this suggestion.

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<p></p>
<p><b>@LPardue</b> commented on this pull request.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4931#discussion_r685979152">draft-ietf-quic-http.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -1193,6 +1198,10 @@ Push Stream Header {
 ~~~~~~~~~~
 {: #fig-push-stream-header title=&quot;Push Stream Header&quot;}
 
+A client SHOULD NOT abort reading on a push stream prior to reading the Push ID,
</pre>
<p>Other parts of the doc use the style "reading on", so I'll remove this suggestion.</p>

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The opening text for each representation is trying to state which dynamic table entries are eligible for for that representation.  All three representations state that they include either a relative or post-base index in the paragraph following the diagram.

The eligibility condition is awkward because "Base" really means "Base Insert Count".  Comparing indexes and counts can get confusing - eg: Absolute Index = 0 can be used in Indexed Field Line when Base (count) is 1 or greater. 

So the explanation in the draft works better for me than the proposed text, but I don't love it.  I'm inclined not to merge this PR.

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<p>The opening text for each representation is trying to state which dynamic table entries are eligible for for that representation.  All three representations state that they include either a relative or post-base index in the paragraph following the diagram.</p>
<p>The eligibility condition is awkward because "Base" really means "Base Insert Count".  Comparing indexes and counts can get confusing - eg: Absolute Index = 0 can be used in Indexed Field Line when Base (count) is 1 or greater.</p>
<p>So the explanation in the draft works better for me than the proposed text, but I don't love it.  I'm inclined not to merge this PR.</p>

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Closed #4928.

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<p>Closed <a class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-error-text="Failed to load title" data-id="952782425" data-permission-text="Title is private" data-url="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4928" data-hovercard-type="issue" data-hovercard-url="/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4928/hovercard" href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4928">#4928</a>.</p>

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Thank you very much for clarification @MikeBishop . I see that in later sections (especially those related to packet/datagram/frame structure) there are references to relevant sections. Is it possible to add it in parentheses (something like "1200 for this QUIC version" or "see section X.Y")? Should be a small change, but makes jumping around easier? I'll close this as the issue is resolved. Thanks once again!

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<p>Thank you very much for clarification <a class="user-mention" data-hovercard-type="user" data-hovercard-url="/users/MikeBishop/hovercard" data-octo-click="hovercard-link-click" data-octo-dimensions="link_type:self" href="https://github.com/MikeBishop">@MikeBishop</a> . I see that in later sections (especially those related to packet/datagram/frame structure) there are references to relevant sections. Is it possible to add it in parentheses (something like "1200 for this QUIC version" or "see section X.Y")? Should be a small change, but makes jumping around easier? I'll close this as the issue is resolved. Thanks once again!</p>

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Hmm, I don't  come up with any other representation.
Simply I felt using `absolute` and `relative` in same section looks confusing.
eg: Line 1028 and 1024 explain same part in wire, but using opposite adjective.

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<p></p>
<p>Hmm, I don't  come up with any other representation.<br>
Simply I felt using <code>absolute</code> and <code>relative</code> in same section looks confusing.<br>
eg: Line 1028 and 1024 explain same part in wire, but using opposite adjective.</p>

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A reasonable suggestion ,but the RFC has been published and I don't think this would qualify as an erratum.  I'll mark it as a possibility for a future version, though.

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<p></p>
<p>A reasonable suggestion ,but the RFC has been published and I don't think this would qualify as an erratum.  I'll mark it as a possibility for a future version, though.</p>

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one can also mark errata as "hold for future updates". Or this could be an editorial errata, which then would be displayed inline if verified.

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<p></p>
<p>one can also mark errata as "hold for future updates". Or this could be an editorial errata, which then would be displayed inline if verified.</p>

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1024 is a blank line, so I'm guessing you meant a different line number.  1043, maybe?

I think the confusion is that they're *not* describing the same thing with opposite adjectives; they're describing related but different concepts.
- Every entry that has ever been in the table has an absolute index; see 3.2.4.  Because this number grows over time, it's never directly used on the wire.  It's an internal reference in each implementation.
- In order to compress this potentially-large value, it's expressed on the wire as a relative index or a post-base index; see 3.2.5 and 3.2.6.
- To turn a relative or post-base index into an absolute index and look up the appropriate item, you start from the most recent entry (on the Encoder stream) or the Base (within encoded field sections) and count one direction or the other.
- The different representation types can only refer to a certain region of absolute indices relative to the Base; each representation describes the range it is able to reference at the beginning of its description.  (e.g. `an entry ... with an absolute index less than the value of the Base`)

So every entry has an absolute index, but no instructions use absolute indices.  Instead, they use relative indices.  A decoder will first resolve a relative index into an absolute index, then look up that location in the table.

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<p></p>
<p>1024 is a blank line, so I'm guessing you meant a different line number.  1043, maybe?</p>
<p>I think the confusion is that they're <em>not</em> describing the same thing with opposite adjectives; they're describing related but different concepts.</p>
<ul>
<li>Every entry that has ever been in the table has an absolute index; see 3.2.4.  Because this number grows over time, it's never directly used on the wire.  It's an internal reference in each implementation.</li>
<li>In order to compress this potentially-large value, it's expressed on the wire as a relative index or a post-base index; see 3.2.5 and 3.2.6.</li>
<li>To turn a relative or post-base index into an absolute index and look up the appropriate item, you start from the most recent entry (on the Encoder stream) or the Base (within encoded field sections) and count one direction or the other.</li>
<li>The different representation types can only refer to a certain region of absolute indices relative to the Base; each representation describes the range it is able to reference at the beginning of its description.  (e.g. <code>an entry ... with an absolute index less than the value of the Base</code>)</li>
</ul>
<p>So every entry has an absolute index, but no instructions use absolute indices.  Instead, they use relative indices.  A decoder will first resolve a relative index into an absolute index, then look up that location in the table.</p>

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While the behavior of servers not wanting to coalesce connections for multiple is specified (SHOULD return 421), the client behavior is not specified.  We should be clear that:

"Clients receiving a 421 MUST retry the request on a different connection that is known to be authoritative for the origin."

Without this, servers lack a way to prevent clients from coalescing or handling misdirected requests.  Some major clients today present 421 as a fatal request error which makes it unsafe for servers to return it.

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<p></p>
<p>While the behavior of servers not wanting to coalesce connections for multiple is specified (SHOULD return 421), the client behavior is not specified.  We should be clear that:</p>
<p>"Clients receiving a 421 MUST retry the request on a different connection that is known to be authoritative for the origin."</p>
<p>Without this, servers lack a way to prevent clients from coalescing or handling misdirected requests.  Some major clients today present 421 as a fatal request error which makes it unsafe for servers to return it.</p>

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This mostly belongs in http-core, which [does specify](https://httpwg.org/http-core/draft-ietf-httpbis-semantics-latest.html#status.421) the following:

> A client that receives a 421 (Misdirected Request) response MAY retry the request, whether or not the request method is idempotent, over a different connection, such as a fresh connection specific to the target resource's origin, or via an alternative service [ALTSVC].

MUST doesn't work because not all clients are browsers.  Some simply return the result without chasing redirects, etc. and leave it to the consumer to decide what to do next.  However, I would have expected at least a SHOULD there.

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<p></p>
<p>This mostly belongs in http-core, which <a href="https://httpwg.org/http-core/draft-ietf-httpbis-semantics-latest.html#status.421" rel="nofollow">does specify</a> the following:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>A client that receives a 421 (Misdirected Request) response MAY retry the request, whether or not the request method is idempotent, over a different connection, such as a fresh connection specific to the target resource's origin, or via an alternative service [ALTSVC].</p>
</blockquote>
<p>MUST doesn't work because not all clients are browsers.  Some simply return the result without chasing redirects, etc. and leave it to the consumer to decide what to do next.  However, I would have expected at least a SHOULD there.</p>

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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] Clarify client behavior on receiving 421  [http3] (#4934)
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Since the H3 specification does include a link section 7.4 of semantics containing a mention of 421, I'm pretty happy with things as they are.

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<p></p>
<p>Since the H3 specification does include a link section 7.4 of semantics containing a mention of 421, I'm pretty happy with things as they are.</p>

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Perhaps we close this out and open an issue against http-semantics to switch to a SHOULD there?  Or maybe if the client got to the origin by following DNS and the SNI == :authority then this is a MAY, but if the client is going to try to coalesce onto a connection it thinks might work then following the 421 should be a MUST?  

Having clients be able to issue requests against any server with a matching cert  (including ones they didn't find via DNS)  without the server having a safe way of telling the client to try again via something it got through DNS isn't really operationally sustainable.  

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<p></p>
<p>Perhaps we close this out and open an issue against http-semantics to switch to a SHOULD there?  Or maybe if the client got to the origin by following DNS and the SNI == :authority then this is a MAY, but if the client is going to try to coalesce onto a connection it thinks might work then following the 421 should be a MUST?</p>
<p>Having clients be able to issue requests against any server with a matching cert  (including ones they didn't find via DNS)  without the server having a safe way of telling the client to try again via something it got through DNS isn't really operationally sustainable.</p>

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Maybe I get the point (Yes, line 1043 is correct)
The `absolute index` in `absolute index ... the value of the Base.` doesn't talk about index written in wire, right?
Just a general concept about absolute index used to refer entry and how is it relative Base for each field section type.

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<p>Maybe I get the point (Yes, line 1043 is correct)<br>
The <code>absolute index</code> in <code>absolute index ... the value of the Base.</code> doesn't talk about index written in wire, right?<br>
Just a general concept about absolute index used to refer entry and how is it relative Base for each field section type.</p>

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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] Clarify client behavior on receiving 421  [http3] (#4934)
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I actually had a very similar discussion last week.  All of the redirect status codes also have a MAY for making a request at the new URL, which is conceptually the same.  You're not required to fetch the resource at its new location -- but as a practical matter, if you still want the resource, that's how you'd have to do it because it's not available the first place you asked.

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<p></p>
<p>I actually had a very similar discussion last week.  All of the redirect status codes also have a MAY for making a request at the new URL, which is conceptually the same.  You're not required to fetch the resource at its new location -- but as a practical matter, if you still want the resource, that's how you'd have to do it because it's not available the first place you asked.</p>

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[Semantics 15.4](https://httpwg.org/http-core/draft-ietf-httpbis-semantics-latest.html#rfc.section.15.4) does have SHOULD-level guidance for what a client does *when* it is following a redirection.  Perhaps the suggestion should follow that model; you MAY retry, and if you do, the retry SHOULD behave this way....

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<p></p>
<p><a href="https://httpwg.org/http-core/draft-ietf-httpbis-semantics-latest.html#rfc.section.15.4" rel="nofollow">Semantics 15.4</a> does have SHOULD-level guidance for what a client does <em>when</em> it is following a redirection.  Perhaps the suggestion should follow that model; you MAY retry, and if you do, the retry SHOULD behave this way....</p>

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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] Fix confusing indexing name (#4933)
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Right -- the absolute index is a concept used to describe how things work, but is never used directly on the wire.

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<p></p>
<p>Right -- the absolute index is a concept used to describe how things work, but is never used directly on the wire.</p>

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Closed #4933.

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<p>Closed <a class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-error-text="Failed to load title" data-id="961504755" data-permission-text="Title is private" data-url="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4933" data-hovercard-type="pull_request" data-hovercard-url="/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933/hovercard" href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4933">#4933</a>.</p>

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  Branch: refs/heads/remove-rscid
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  Author: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
  Date:   2021-08-18 (Wed, 18 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
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  Log Message:
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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
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  Branch: refs/heads/remove-rscid
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/load-balancers
  Commit: fe38568f887bfff3deed07589fb4a3ce539d8823
      https://github.com/quicwg/load-balancers/commit/fe38568f887bfff3deed07589fb4a3ce539d8823
  Author: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
  Date:   2021-08-18 (Wed, 18 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  nits



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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/load-balancers
  Commit: 03b3888a6cef2eab0edcf830d7f1317a86d33e27
      https://github.com/quicwg/load-balancers/commit/03b3888a6cef2eab0edcf830d7f1317a86d33e27
  Author: ID Bot <idbot@example.com>
  Date:   2021-08-18 (Wed, 18 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M index.html
    M remove-rscid/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers.html
    M remove-rscid/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers.txt

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Script updating gh-pages from fe38568. [ci skip]



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  Branch: refs/heads/remove-rscid
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/load-balancers
  Commit: e4c4bb7533351af1c0a4604705cdf3d55183c109
      https://github.com/quicwg/load-balancers/commit/e4c4bb7533351af1c0a4604705cdf3d55183c109
  Author: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
  Date:   2021-08-18 (Wed, 18 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  updated changelog



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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/load-balancers
  Commit: cc9e394950285b299ec2605f2648e53902e12be1
      https://github.com/quicwg/load-balancers/commit/cc9e394950285b299ec2605f2648e53902e12be1
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  Date:   2021-08-18 (Wed, 18 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M remove-rscid/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers.html
    M remove-rscid/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers.txt

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Script updating gh-pages from e4c4bb7. [ci skip]



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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] QPACK, too (a8d03ea)
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I would fix this by using an HTTP2 anchor for this as well (consistency).



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<p></p>
<p>I would fix this by using an HTTP2 anchor for this as well (consistency).</p>

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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
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  Branch: refs/heads/rfc7540bis
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  Changed paths:
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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] QPACK, too (a8d03ea)
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Done, though I note that creates a different inconsistency, in that no anchor name is used for HPACK.

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<p></p>
<p>Done, though I note that creates a different inconsistency, in that no anchor name is used for HPACK.</p>

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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
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    M rfc7540bis/draft-ietf-quic-qpack.html
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Subject: [quicwg/base-drafts] [QPACK] Appendix B.5 seems violating eviction policy (#4935)
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B.5 evicts `:authority  www.example.com` at absolute index 0 which is referenced by duplicated entry at absolute index of 3 which is acknowledged.
Based on section 2.1.1, entry is not evictable if it is referenced by unacknowledged entry.
Is my understanding correct?

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<p></p>
<p>B.5 evicts <code>:authority  www.example.com</code> at absolute index 0 which is referenced by duplicated entry at absolute index of 3 which is acknowledged.<br>
Based on section 2.1.1, entry is not evictable if it is referenced by unacknowledged entry.<br>
Is my understanding correct?</p>

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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] [QPACK] Appendix B.5 seems violating eviction policy (#4935)
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>From [Section 2.1.1](https://quicwg.org/base-drafts/draft-ietf-quic-qpack.html#name-limits-on-dynamic-table-ins):
> Note that references on the encoder stream never preclude the eviction of an entry, because those references are guaranteed to be processed before the instruction evicting the entry.

There are no outstanding references to absolute index 0 (or any other table entry) in encoded field sections.

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<p></p>
<p>From <a href="https://quicwg.org/base-drafts/draft-ietf-quic-qpack.html#name-limits-on-dynamic-table-ins" rel="nofollow">Section 2.1.1</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Note that references on the encoder stream never preclude the eviction of an entry, because those references are guaranteed to be processed before the instruction evicting the entry.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>There are no outstanding references to absolute index 0 (or any other table entry) in encoded field sections.</p>

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What does this `outstanding reference` mean in this context?

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<p></p>
<p>What does this <code>outstanding reference</code> mean in this context?</p>

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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts
  Commit: 6634a6c093e969651d2def61af5032411a2a2bea
      https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/commit/6634a6c093e969651d2def61af5032411a2a2bea
  Author: ID Bot <idbot@example.com>
  Date:   2021-08-22 (Sun, 22 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M archive.json

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Script updating archive at 2021-08-22T00:04:22Z. [ci skip]



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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] [QPACK] Appendix B.5 seems violating eviction policy (#4935)
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All encoded field sections which reference absolute index 0 have been acknowledged; the only one of these shown occurs in B.2 and is acknowledged in the same example.  The insertion of absolute index 0 has been acknowledged; also in B.2, since the section that referenced it was processed.  Therefore, the entry is evictable.

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<p></p>
<p>All encoded field sections which reference absolute index 0 have been acknowledged; the only one of these shown occurs in B.2 and is acknowledged in the same example.  The insertion of absolute index 0 has been acknowledged; also in B.2, since the section that referenced it was processed.  Therefore, the entry is evictable.</p>

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  Branch: refs/heads/http/transfer-coding
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts
  Commit: 03df2cf3e283a8ef018ebbf0f18c9985eee96d20
      https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/commit/03df2cf3e283a8ef018ebbf0f18c9985eee96d20
  Author: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
  Date:   2021-08-23 (Mon, 23 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-quic-http.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Reference the concept, not the header



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Subject: [quicwg/base-drafts] Reference the concept, not the header (#4936)
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----==_mimepart_6123daa581227_58c74c2908
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Noticed in https://github.com/httpwg/http2-spec/issues/938 that we&#39;re pointing to different sections:

- 6.1 is the Transfer-Encoding header
- 7.1 is `chunked` specifically
- 7 is transfer codings in general

Since this passage is referring to the concept in general not being present in HTTP/3, Section 7 is the correct reference.
You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:

  https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4936

-- Commit Summary --

  * Reference the concept, not the header

-- File Changes --

    M draft-ietf-quic-http.md (2)

-- Patch Links --

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4936.patch
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4936.diff

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<p>Noticed in <a class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-error-text="Failed to load title" data-id="977248241" data-permission-text="Title is private" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http2-spec/issues/938" data-hovercard-type="issue" data-hovercard-url="/httpwg/http2-spec/issues/938/hovercard" href="https://github.com/httpwg/http2-spec/issues/938">httpwg/http2-spec#938</a> that we're pointing to different sections:</p>
<ul>
<li>6.1 is the Transfer-Encoding header</li>
<li>7.1 is <code>chunked</code> specifically</li>
<li>7 is transfer codings in general</li>
</ul>
<p>Since this passage is referring to the concept in general not being present in HTTP/3, Section 7 is the correct reference.</p>

<hr>

<h4>You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:</h4>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href='https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4936'>https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4936</a></p>

<h4>Commit Summary</h4>
<ul>
  <li>Reference the concept, not the header</li>
</ul>

<h4>File Changes</h4>
<ul>
  <li>
    <strong>M</strong>
    <a href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4936/files#diff-c7364e57fd3b825f8342d91eabf4fa844f1c26127970ccb1af9a1a16a6598165">draft-ietf-quic-http.md</a>
    (2)
  </li>
</ul>

<h4>Patch Links:</h4>
<ul>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4936.patch'>https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4936.patch</a></li>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4936.diff'>https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4936.diff</a></li>
</ul>

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1. I misunderstood the `reference` means reference from duplicated entry (or entry which refers only field name) against an entry in dynamic table. e.g. B.4's abs 3 refers abs 0.
2. Then eviction must not happen during referencing entries if encoder instructions arrive in appropriate order (e.g. send referenced headers -> insert headers (-> evict non-referenced header))
3. However these instructions arrives in expected order...? Sorry, I'm not familiar with stream level packet ordering.

Out of topic
Why don't we explain `outstanding`  more clearly? it is not explained in RFC and you do not explain.
Anyone cannot explain means that it is vague

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<p></p>
<ol>
<li>I misunderstood the <code>reference</code> means reference from duplicated entry (or entry which refers only field name) against an entry in dynamic table. e.g. B.4's abs 3 refers abs 0.</li>
<li>Then eviction must not happen during referencing entries if encoder instructions arrive in appropriate order (e.g. send referenced headers -&gt; insert headers (-&gt; evict non-referenced header))</li>
<li>However these instructions arrives in expected order...? Sorry, I'm not familiar with stream level packet ordering.</li>
</ol>
<p>Out of topic<br>
Why don't we explain <code>outstanding</code>  more clearly? it is not explained in RFC and you do not explain.<br>
Anyone cannot explain means that it is vague</p>

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Everything on a stream is processed in order; the packets might arrive out-of-order, but QUIC will present a sequential bytestream to the application layer (QPACK in this case).  So within one stream, we can guarantee that no later instruction will be processed before an earlier instruction.  That means that whatever the state of the table was at the encoder when an instruction was generated, you can be sure that's the state at the decoder when the instruction is consumed.

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<p></p>
<p>Everything on a stream is processed in order; the packets might arrive out-of-order, but QUIC will present a sequential bytestream to the application layer (QPACK in this case).  So within one stream, we can guarantee that no later instruction will be processed before an earlier instruction.  That means that whatever the state of the table was at the encoder when an instruction was generated, you can be sure that's the state at the decoder when the instruction is consumed.</p>

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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] [QPACK] Appendix B.5 seems violating eviction policy (#4935)
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Thanks for clarification.
Maybe the point is how many streams QUIC can establish (Sorry this would be out of this topic)

>From Section 4.2
> Each endpoint MUST initiate at most one encoder stream and at most one decoder stream

Yes, field sections and instructions should arrive in expected order from this sentence, because there is single encoder stream.
But From Section 2.1.2
> Because QUIC does not guarantee order between data on different streams, a decoder might encounter a representation that references a dynamic table entry that it has not yet received.

This implicitly means QUIC establishes multiple encoder streams then blocked one of streams if condition matches.
Moreover From Section 2.2
> Note that encoded field sections and encoder stream instructions arrive on separate streams

This also means QPACK allows to establish multiple encoder streams. 
How many stream QUIC can handle? some sentences are not correct?


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<p></p>
<p>Thanks for clarification.<br>
Maybe the point is how many streams QUIC can establish (Sorry this would be out of this topic)</p>
<p>From Section 4.2</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Each endpoint MUST initiate at most one encoder stream and at most one decoder stream</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes, field sections and instructions should arrive in expected order from this sentence, because there is single encoder stream.<br>
But From Section 2.1.2</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Because QUIC does not guarantee order between data on different streams, a decoder might encounter a representation that references a dynamic table entry that it has not yet received.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This implicitly means QUIC establishes multiple encoder streams then blocked one of streams if condition matches.<br>
Moreover From Section 2.2</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Note that encoded field sections and encoder stream instructions arrive on separate streams</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This also means QPACK allows to establish multiple encoder streams.<br>
How many stream QUIC can handle? some sentences are not correct?</p>

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> > Because QUIC does not guarantee order between data on different streams, a decoder might encounter a representation that references a dynamic table entry that it has not yet received.
> 
> This implicitly means QUIC establishes multiple encoder streams then blocked one of streams if condition matches.

No -- representations are in encoded field sections, which arrive on request and push streams.  Those are separate from encoder streams, as noted in the text you quoted next.

QPACK cannot establish multiple encoder streams in a given direction.  On a connection, there are:

- one encoder stream in each direction
- one decoder stream in each direction
- up to the number of request streams the server chooses to allow
- up to the number of push streams the client chooses to allow

QUIC itself imposes no limit on the number of simultaneous request or push streams, but allows the endpoints to communicate and enforce their own limits.

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<p></p>
<blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>Because QUIC does not guarantee order between data on different streams, a decoder might encounter a representation that references a dynamic table entry that it has not yet received.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This implicitly means QUIC establishes multiple encoder streams then blocked one of streams if condition matches.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>No -- representations are in encoded field sections, which arrive on request and push streams.  Those are separate from encoder streams, as noted in the text you quoted next.</p>
<p>QPACK cannot establish multiple encoder streams in a given direction.  On a connection, there are:</p>
<ul>
<li>one encoder stream in each direction</li>
<li>one decoder stream in each direction</li>
<li>up to the number of request streams the server chooses to allow</li>
<li>up to the number of push streams the client chooses to allow</li>
</ul>
<p>QUIC itself imposes no limit on the number of simultaneous request or push streams, but allows the endpoints to communicate and enforce their own limits.</p>

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  Branch: refs/heads/main
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/load-balancers
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  Author: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
  Date:   2021-08-18 (Wed, 18 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
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  Log Message:
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  remove rscid


  Commit: fe38568f887bfff3deed07589fb4a3ce539d8823
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  nits


  Commit: e4c4bb7533351af1c0a4604705cdf3d55183c109
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  updated changelog


  Commit: d15049062fb5e587ac5d402a18b777df01417690
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  Update draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers.md

Co-authored-by: Quoc-Viet Nguyen <afelion@gmail.com>


  Commit: e13356ed48b642f9d1259626cf42df1adaa6ed74
      https://github.com/quicwg/load-balancers/commit/e13356ed48b642f9d1259626cf42df1adaa6ed74
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  Date:   2021-08-27 (Fri, 27 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
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  Log Message:
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  Merge pull request #128 from quicwg/remove-rscid

remove rscid


Compare: https://github.com/quicwg/load-balancers/compare/0a4ab4db0af6...e13356ed48b6


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Subject: Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] [QPACK] Appendix B.5 seems violating eviction policy (#4935)
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> 4.5. Field Line Representations
> An encoded field section consists of a prefix and a possibly empty sequence of representations defined in this section. Each representation corresponds to a single field line. These representations reference the static table or the dynamic table in a particular state, but do not modify that state.
> 
> Encoded field sections are carried in frames on streams defined by the enclosing protocol.

You are right, encoded field sections are carried on request/push streams. Thanks!

Then I guess steps bellows would become issue (should I create another issue or change title?)
1. send encoded field section which refers entry at abs 0 from dynamic table
2. send Set Dynamic Table Capacity instruction which evicts entry at abs 0 from dynamic table. evict entries from encoder's dynamic table
3. 2. arrives earlier than 1. (because different streams). evict entries from decoder's dynamic table
4. 1. arrives, but referenced entry (abs 0) was already evicted
I know draining index feature could avoid referencing about-to-evict entry, but it is not MUST feature.

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<p></p>
<blockquote>
<p>4.5. Field Line Representations<br>
An encoded field section consists of a prefix and a possibly empty sequence of representations defined in this section. Each representation corresponds to a single field line. These representations reference the static table or the dynamic table in a particular state, but do not modify that state.</p>
<p>Encoded field sections are carried in frames on streams defined by the enclosing protocol.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>You are right, encoded field sections are carried on request/push streams. Thanks!</p>
<p>Then I guess steps bellows would become issue (should I create another issue or change title?)</p>
<ol>
<li>send encoded field section which refers entry at abs 0 from dynamic table</li>
<li>send Set Dynamic Table Capacity instruction which evicts entry at abs 0 from dynamic table. evict entries from encoder's dynamic table</li>
<li>
<ol start="2">
<li>arrives earlier than 1. (because different streams). evict entries from decoder's dynamic table</li>
</ol>
</li>
<li>
<ol>
<li>arrives, but referenced entry (abs 0) was already evicted<br>
I know draining index feature could avoid referencing about-to-evict entry, but it is not MUST feature.</li>
</ol>
</li>
</ol>

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An encoder is responsible for ensuring that any entry that it might cause to be evicted (by inserting, duplicating, or resizing) only occurs after all references to that entry have been acknowledged by the decoder.  That is why we have a decoder stream with acknowledgments.

In this case, if you have not received an acknowledgment (or a cancellation for the stream that contained the reference) you can't resize the dynamic table.

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<p></p>
<p>An encoder is responsible for ensuring that any entry that it might cause to be evicted (by inserting, duplicating, or resizing) only occurs after all references to that entry have been acknowledged by the decoder.  That is why we have a decoder stream with acknowledgments.</p>
<p>In this case, if you have not received an acknowledgment (or a cancellation for the stream that contained the reference) you can't resize the dynamic table.</p>

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@LPardue approved this pull request.





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<p></p>
<p><b>@LPardue</b> approved this pull request.</p>



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  Commit: 806a9e731e31bcc66c8766b49fca51575c0571ea
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Compare: https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/compare/9cd772df1118...c2f838e397dd


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  Branch: refs/heads/not_used_recovery
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/datagram


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Subject: [quicwg/datagram] 9540fe: Suggestion from Mike Bishop
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  Branch: refs/heads/main
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/datagram
  Commit: 9540fe274dbf235f1769ddfd73f57777a61c4344
      https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/commit/9540fe274dbf235f1769ddfd73f57777a61c4344
  Author: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
  Date:   2021-08-31 (Tue, 31 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-quic-datagram.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Suggestion from Mike Bishop


  Commit: b26e656e060715adbfff5cfe3e7bee83b83e8b03
      https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/commit/b26e656e060715adbfff5cfe3e7bee83b83e8b03
  Author: David Schinazi <DavidSchinazi@users.noreply.github.com>
  Date:   2021-08-31 (Tue, 31 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-quic-datagram.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Suggestion from Tommy

Co-authored-by: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>


  Commit: 58113339500f27f0e3968c5e69da331a157c7f56
      https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/commit/58113339500f27f0e3968c5e69da331a157c7f56
  Author: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
  Date:   2021-08-31 (Tue, 31 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-quic-datagram.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Merge pull request #48 from quicwg/not_used_recovery

Clarify recommendation on datagram acknowledgements


Compare: https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/compare/66f06a613154...58113339500f


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Subject: [quicwg/datagram] dc0d40: Script updating gh-pages from 5811333. [ci skip]
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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
  Home:   https://github.com/quicwg/datagram
  Commit: dc0d405c3b206316c67a25744d63df7c86400f9d
      https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/commit/dc0d405c3b206316c67a25744d63df7c86400f9d
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  Date:   2021-08-31 (Tue, 31 Aug 2021)

  Changed paths:
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    M draft-ietf-quic-datagram.txt

  Log Message:
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  Script updating gh-pages from 5811333. [ci skip]


