From nobody Wed Mar 25 10:50:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@iab.org Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7173A091D; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:50:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IAB Executive Administrative Manager To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, rfced-future@iab.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.123.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <158515861056.31362.1577145055370523251@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:50:10 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Eliot Lear to Serve as RFC Editor Future Development Program Chair X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:50:11 -0000 The IAB has selected Eliot Lear to serve as chair of the RFC Editor Future Development Program [1]. The IAB thanks all of the candidates who were willing to serve. This was a difficult decision with many strong candidates. Like an IETF working group, this program will have completely open participation. The program will use the mailing list rfced-future@iab.org. To subscribe, please go to . Future details about the operation of the program will be coming shortly. [1] https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-future-development-program/ From nobody Wed Mar 25 12:56:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1385E3A0C8C for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iuqR5q4mKVJH for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C75C3A0C44 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:54:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1089; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1585166099; x=1586375699; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=48qFxV6n9xi89cpU1GNQ/8qNVta4tSEaXJi6QJGSiCg=; b=msPTRxIC8EhewUSuR9ayRuX6MM/8XRMsl5f7gKQeFsFroX/OJmhTA1lD LQtNZmzj2gF9Ca2Kv0jzkdx5KcSgeS0jmYYoMVHrn5IZ2/pCb0cey2FcQ 5NtcKRAaqH42oBzbCd372SCZSC4zFCZe7RIUIWGQ/qZ0TQ1zB3SiYPGQh U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AJAQCztnte/xbLJq1mGwEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?FAQEBEQEBAwMBAQGBe4MVVSASKoQZiQKIGZtHCgEBAQwBARgNCgQBAYREAoJ?= =?us-ascii?q?MOBMCAwEBCwEBBQEBAQIBBQRthVYMhWMBAQEBAgEBASFLCwULCxgCAggeAgI?= =?us-ascii?q?nMAYTgyYBglwgD61sdYEyhUuFFAaBDiqMSYIAgTggghgHLj6CZAGBZoMRMoI?= =?us-ascii?q?sBI1qomuCRoJWlDIdgkyILJBmp1GDNAIEBgUCFYFpIoFYMxoIGxU7KgGCDQE?= =?us-ascii?q?zPhIYDY5ViE+FQkADMI8nAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.72,305,1580774400"; d="scan'208";a="24755999" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 25 Mar 2020 19:54:56 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp2001.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp2001.cisco.com [10.61.71.209]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 02PJstQm025103 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Mar 2020 19:54:55 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <158515861056.31362.1577145055370523251@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 20:54:54 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <158515861056.31362.1577145055370523251@ietfa.amsl.com> To: The IETF List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.71.209, ams3-vpn-dhcp2001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Eliot Lear to Serve as RFC Editor Future Development Program Chair X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 19:55:56 -0000 Hi! We=E2=80=99ll kick things off after folk have had an opportunity to get = onto the mailing list, figure by Monday or so. Have a great rest of the = virtual IETF. Eliot > On 25 Mar 2020, at 18:50, IAB Executive Administrative Manager = wrote: >=20 > The IAB has selected Eliot Lear to serve as chair of the RFC Editor=20 > Future Development Program [1]. >=20 > The IAB thanks all of the candidates who were willing to serve. This = was=20 > a difficult decision with many strong candidates. >=20 > Like an IETF working group, this program will have completely open=20 > participation. The program will use the mailing list=20 > rfced-future@iab.org. To subscribe, please go to=20 > . >=20 > Future details about the operation of the program will be coming=20 > shortly. >=20 > [1] = https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-future-development-prog= ram/ >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Thu Mar 26 00:47:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5A3B3A0143 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 00:47:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eGgwpkgdBQZs for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 00:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E9503A003A for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 00:47:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=144; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1585208840; x=1586418440; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject: message-id:date:to; bh=6Sa05HO8576ahmiHIy0KSd4qUlEOB8q+veC6Jt0HV8o=; b=VMn714FiCTTLCsFEAQxU4mmE85QvrmxB6+gsHiYVjmaV1GtB8aCFsRP5 LpvNxKTZZA5E+hk9sd3P3OsBmK0NixlXE9VDwC8nk5qLtAzaJfVKS9NRc r8P84sfduweYdmfb5A5O60jyHebVcRGVdwpY9jUx4cuDEhrjrDO1IqgLb I=; X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0B9BQBTXXxe/xbLJq1mhisgEoREiQKHZ5Aci1AKAQEBD?= =?us-ascii?q?AEBLwQBAYcWOBMCAwEBAQMCAwEBAQEFAQEBAgEFBG2FYoYNgQsCJgKEGIJ9n?= =?us-ascii?q?wWOEXWBMoVLhRqBDiqMSYIAgTgMFIIfhgSCRDKCLASwVYJGglaUMx2COwEQi?= =?us-ascii?q?CyQZ6dSgzQCBAYFAhWBaSKBWDMaCBsVOyoBgkI9EhgNnGZAA49VAQE?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.72,307,1580774400"; d="scan'208";a="22454630" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 26 Mar 2020 07:47:18 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp2001.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp2001.cisco.com [10.61.71.209]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 02Q7lHrH005427 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 07:47:18 GMT From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 08:47:16 +0100 To: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.71.209, ams3-vpn-dhcp2001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] We are awaiting other arrivals, please stand by X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 07:47:22 -0000 Hi everyone, A reminder: we=E2=80=99ll kick things off on Monday, so that folks can = have a chance to join the list. Regards, Eliot From nobody Sun Mar 29 23:52:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BEB23A0EFB for ; Sun, 29 Mar 2020 23:52:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aWmEdWIMpn5G for ; Sun, 29 Mar 2020 23:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B58E3A0EFD for ; Sun, 29 Mar 2020 23:51:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8814; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1585551118; x=1586760718; h=from:mime-version:date:subject:message-id:to; bh=NR6DT93eWhunDcWa3u1z503mSCYeDyZBnLqb7Nq7OOA=; b=A7nKh1qm/2mUANwADiaUzrfrd8lcEvbkGA7L+nxUYeKZVSXlpZ9uqJ5g wJFm/H4TUZSzyWWqXXFKILgYfayoS1bw+TSEiU8zTv+mG/d7vf2tX6ld0 S8G4Cs5NCxEweRAritiBymuOkRnF1nnewhLXkkFB82G6OuVI6iP1MwnOp o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DgAgC2lYFe/xbLJq1mHAEBAQEBBwE?= =?us-ascii?q?BEQEEBAEBgXuDFVQhEoREiQKHaJNihiSBZwoBAQEMAQEYAQoMBAEBhxs4EwI?= =?us-ascii?q?DAQELAQEFAQEBAgEFBG2FVgyFeAEhS2gCKV0HgwsBgnwPnQSNXDV1X1OFS4R?= =?us-ascii?q?BHQaBOIxLggCBOAwUgh+DUwGBJ4NRMoIsBJcUmVGCRgSCUpQ/HYJMiDCQcKd?= =?us-ascii?q?ogzQCBAYFAhWBaSKBWDMaCBsVOyoBgkI9EhgNjikXiGSFQAM/A40JgkEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.72,323,1580774400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="24815020" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 30 Mar 2020 06:51:55 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp5419.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp5419.cisco.com [10.61.85.42]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 02U6prnl000368 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 30 Mar 2020 06:51:54 GMT From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5DFF902B-18EC-44F5-9932-5046A2DB5373" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 08:51:53 +0200 Message-Id: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> To: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.85.42, ams3-vpn-dhcp5419.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 06:52:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5DFF902B-18EC-44F5-9932-5046A2DB5373 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 [Bcc: rfc-interest just this once: if you want to join the program = mailing list, you can click here = .] Greetings and welcome to the new RFC Editor Future Development Program. Last year, the RFC Editor held a number of sessions to discuss how the = RFC editor program might evolve. This program was chartered to foster = discussion and consensus on possible changes. Such changes could include = the role of the RFC editor, the role of others, the structure means by = which the RFC editor and those others are overseen, and any necessary = accountability mechanisms, just to name a few aspects. A number of = others were discussed last year, and I=E2=80=99m sure those will come up = again. What if anything changes is entirely up to the community, as this is = being run under an IAB open program, and it will be IETF community = members who put forward both problem statements and proposed solutions. Your chair has no particular agenda with regard to what the outcome of = this work should be. On the other hand, with people having passionate = views on this subject, my only agenda is to try to make the experience = positive for everyone. Please help me in that endeavor, and in doing so = we will reach for the broadest consensus. Regarding working methods, our program charter says that we will operate = similar to an IETF working group. Those procedures are spelled out in = RFC 2418 Section 3, and I propose to stay congruent with them so that = there are no surprises. =20 With this having been said, I propose to proceed as follows: Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for short problem statements that = people think we need to address. We should be clear on what we see as = problems and their scope. See if we can get agreement on those. Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for proposals on how to solve those = problems. See if we can get agreement on those. For (1) and (3) we can provide some structure to facilitate comparison = and discussion, if that is the wish of the group. This in itself is a = discussion point I invite you to address. The pace of this work will depend very much on how fast we come to = consensus on both the problems and the solutions. The timing of = meetings will be driven by the group. We can address that in more = detail in due course. Do people find this agreeable? Otherwise, please feel free to propose = alternatives that the group can consider. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_5DFF902B-18EC-44F5-9932-5046A2DB5373 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

[Bcc: rfc-interest just this once: = if you want to join the program mailing list, you can = click here.]

Greetings and welcome to the new RFC Editor = Future Development Program.

Last year, the RFC Editor held = a number of sessions to discuss how the RFC editor program might evolve. = This program was chartered to foster discussion and consensus on = possible changes. Such changes could include the role of the RFC editor, = the role of others, the structure means by which the RFC editor and = those others are overseen, and any necessary accountability mechanisms, = just to name a few aspects.  A number of others were discussed last = year, and I=E2=80=99m sure those will come up again.

What if anything changes is = entirely up to the community, as this is being run under an IAB open = program, and it will be IETF community members who put forward both = problem statements and proposed solutions.

Your chair has no particular agenda with = regard to what the outcome of this work should be.  On the other = hand, with people having passionate views on this subject, my only = agenda is to try to make the experience positive for everyone.  = Please help me in that endeavor, and in doing so we will reach for the = broadest consensus.

Regarding working methods, our program charter = says that we will operate similar to an IETF working group.  Those = procedures are spelled out in RFC 2418 Section 3, and I propose to stay = congruent with them so that there are no surprises.  

With = this having been said, I propose to proceed as follows:

  1. Open up = =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for short problem statements that people = think we need to address. We should be clear on what we see as problems = and their scope.
  2. See if we can get agreement = on those.
  3. Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80= =9D for proposals on how to solve those problems.
  4. See if = we can get agreement on those.

For (1) and (3) we can provide some structure = to facilitate comparison and discussion, if that is the wish of the = group.  This in itself is a discussion point I invite you to = address.

The pace of this work will = depend very much on how fast we come to consensus on both the problems = and the solutions.  The timing of meetings will be driven by the group.  We = can address that in more detail in due course.

Do people find this agreeable? =  Otherwise, please feel free to propose alternatives that the group = can consider.

Eliot

= --Apple-Mail=_5DFF902B-18EC-44F5-9932-5046A2DB5373-- From nobody Mon Mar 30 02:00:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A53D3A1140 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 02:00:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UC22ZfeaC1E7 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 02:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE63D3A113F for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 02:00:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1915; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1585558850; x=1586768450; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=xVTxEO8n7BoNPWP8L5pmWz6fNfldHuNUb2EVj5PXVIU=; b=cuxlW2yW/JBqncQiEHiQIDaoSPabNvbOyXRgCNaQeqHpOa8Bw3YCo5mu gpQl5twLaS37Y7hbUuGTIXs5Jrfg5bWFIglFI5eY9OWVmBBPAo45znNJ0 fgp5W+1ZEY7kMWSaRz5VxMSEn6RVrlpY+/W7gLCI/fIq9qlVuJmg8kT3W 0=; X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AsBAAftYFe/xbLJq1mHgELHIFwC4NpIRKERIkCm0mGE?= =?us-ascii?q?IF7CgEBAQwBAS8EAQGHHDYHDgIDAQEBAwIDAQEBAQUBAQECAQUEbYVihWczd?= =?us-ascii?q?AE+AoQYgn2dE44RdYEyhUuEZIE4jEuCAIE4IIIgAYYFgkUygiwEsGWCRgSCU?= =?us-ascii?q?pQ/HZtsp2iDNAIEBgUCFYFZAjCBWDMaCBsVOyoBgkI9EhgNnGc/A49KAQE?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.72,323,1580774400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="22563546" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 30 Mar 2020 09:00:34 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp5419.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp5419.cisco.com [10.61.85.42]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 02U90Xbd030388 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:00:33 GMT From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9DC911C9-5EF0-42B3-962E-40ABBE9C205F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Message-Id: <7966EFE1-A3DE-4D6C-836C-47D6ECEE941F@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 11:00:33 +0200 To: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.85.42, ams3-vpn-dhcp5419.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Some reading material X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:00:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9DC911C9-5EF0-42B3-962E-40ABBE9C205F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 For those who wish to brush up on the RFC Editor, here is a brief = reading list. Feel free to suggest additional material. draft-flanagan-rseme-03 RFCs 8700, 5540, and 2555 on the series history RFC 8728 RFC Editor Model (Version 2.0) RFC 8729 The RFC Series and RFC Editor RFC 8730 The Independent Submission Editor Model Olaf Kolkman=E2=80=99s presentation on the RFC Editor Model in Montreal All the minutes of the interims from last year Eliot --Apple-Mail=_9DC911C9-5EF0-42B3-962E-40ABBE9C205F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
For those who wish to brush up on the RFC Editor, here is a = brief reading list.  Feel free to suggest additional = material.

  • draft-flanagan-rseme-03
  • RFCs 8700, 5540, and 2555 on the series = history
  • RFC 8728 RFC Editor Model (Version 2.0)
  • RFC = 8729 The RFC Series and RFC Editor
  • RFC 8730 The = Independent Submission Editor Model
  • Olaf Kolkman=E2=80=99= s presentation on the RFC Editor Model in Montreal
  • All = the minutes of the interims from last year

Eliot

= --Apple-Mail=_9DC911C9-5EF0-42B3-962E-40ABBE9C205F-- From nobody Mon Mar 30 06:15:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECCBF3A15A4 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 06:15:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hHvVLEBsJJiK for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 06:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB5BA3A14CC for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 06:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id i3so14898602qtv.8 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 06:15:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ddx4E+wU/lce/4pXvXRPT3oKHxiQgB/Qm46aMFuoLqs=; b=bIlyuyxrh5ZQirYGXc0KOmVjzo/QkEX77GGRm5Qlurrl1fUQHBRhgORAUYbJ+B5fJT Q8o0ZdybbhYLVlSNixTpy9bz3QIY9JN8yB7DzdezEABcSrpGPv97ceLoM/lQDb9SQU5E BoYj7nqVRQME62cm7p0nr8fgMe7ju6tLBLw/zpgAL/K9GGZN96Bg8Qe2oip02quidRxi b7d3DH0CbXJD43m30a14paGYz3ScjCP2YrsJXEhQpg8hvyS697jFOumq3gybF9NTzH/2 9XK0LJe4jhheTawBgK23F0eFG/goxqSmPPiwqALFDCDa/hWhjOSgxg1+Diq5dqbuioOe IAdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ddx4E+wU/lce/4pXvXRPT3oKHxiQgB/Qm46aMFuoLqs=; b=DSMHSgDhM13+O4qP9qsO9fvN5pUQnBTbrlZOpu5ZGp+23yHyJLsDuOYXbkUP7xgcAu xl/p+kTJXTkPs74szkHr8Z64Ma5iGzZfaW9LfnqUJzqs/rEFT8wU3Z2TRr/Tg66WNzP3 P2yxq2YKXJ5VI4AjGjqNTI99StD4POVi5eW6D+yg0uIWjtLaSyYZ6VYI7QZJofPj7EbO PVLpE1BrSC7sWQ+ogxLLIHy4IDHcSgTEr8HDe9ND/NdHsLi8FAeXuGMlRqvd3KhPDQRF q9bMyx7QH5nUuHgvtye6fAItfc8OyV7YTTPAXy6ZwNK3k9HfMY44saBYqzKuGxw2x+vz V1FA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ2BCG+1hH4IaqAZ0LRnOcEkDLYhYnhq9UfCkhKU+d7ysZYbJdTy htbU3cnIre0WKS6AO2nHdLmtYvHzBClIu06tk7Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vvB3DLasZgRCCBMFpsxcCxKWP+wXXwRC8jlV4OzCWcaqZJ+D5bGvYK76vYAyvJp7pr3Jj2Q2oiLYro72urPizc= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:3659:: with SMTP id n25mr11480932qtb.254.1585574133404; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 06:15:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:15:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fc9b6a05a2123edf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:15:40 -0000 --000000000000fc9b6a05a2123edf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eliot, Thanks for taking on this job (I didn't want it to be thankless, so I thought this would be a good way to begin). I think a guiding principal should be - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. To that end, is there an outgoing report from Heather from her perspective as RFC Editor on what she thought was working and what she thought needed improvement? If there is one, sharing it with the group would be instructive. If there isn't, would it be possible for her to write one? Thanks, Andy On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 2:52 AM Eliot Lear wrote: > [Bcc: rfc-interest just this once: if you want to join the program mailin= g > list, you can click here > .] > > Greetings and welcome to the new RFC Editor Future Development Program. > > Last year, the RFC Editor held a number of sessions to discuss how the RF= C > editor program might evolve. This program was chartered to foster > discussion and consensus on possible changes. Such changes could include > the role of the RFC editor, the role of others, the structure means by > which the RFC editor and those others are overseen, and any necessary > accountability mechanisms, just to name a few aspects. A number of other= s > were discussed last year, and I=E2=80=99m sure those will come up again. > > What if anything changes is entirely up to the community, as this is bein= g > run under an IAB open program, and it will be IETF community members who > put forward both problem statements and proposed solutions. > > Your chair has no particular agenda with regard to what the outcome of > this work should be. On the other hand, with people having passionate > views on this subject, my only agenda is to try to make the experience > positive for everyone. Please help me in that endeavor, and in doing so = we > will reach for the broadest consensus. > > Regarding working methods, our program charter says that we will operate > similar to an IETF working group. Those procedures are spelled out in RF= C > 2418 Section 3, and I propose to stay congruent with them so that there a= re > no surprises. > > With this having been said, I propose to proceed as follows: > > 1. Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for short problem statements th= at people think > we need to address. We should be clear on what we see as problems and = their > scope. > 2. See if we can get agreement on those. > 3. Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for proposals on how to solve t= hose problems. > 4. See if we can get agreement on those. > > For (1) and (3) we can provide some structure to facilitate comparison an= d > discussion, if that is the wish of the group. This in itself is a > discussion point I invite you to address. > > The pace of this work will depend very much on how fast we come to > consensus on both the problems and the solutions. The timing of meetings > will be driven by the group. We can address that in more detail in due > course. > > Do people find this agreeable? Otherwise, please feel free to propose > alternatives that the group can consider. > Eliot > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --000000000000fc9b6a05a2123edf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Eliot,

Thanks for taking on this job (I= didn't want it to be thankless, so I thought this would be a good way = to begin).

I think a guiding principal=C2=A0should= be - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.=C2=A0

To that end, is there an outgoing report from Heather from her perspecti= ve as RFC Editor on what she thought was working and what she thought neede= d improvement?

If there is one, sharing it with th= e group would be instructive.=C2=A0

If there isn&#= 39;t, would it be possible for her to write one?

T= hanks,
Andy




On = Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 2:52 AM Eliot Lear <lear=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

[Bcc:=C2=A0rfc-interest just this once: = if you want to join the program mailing list, you can click=C2=A0here.]

Greetings and welcome to the new RFC Ed= itor Future Development Program.

Last year, the RFC Editor held a number of sessions to discuss = how the RFC editor program might evolve. This program was chartered to fost= er discussion and consensus on possible changes. Such changes could include= the role of the RFC editor, the role of others, the structure means by whi= ch the RFC editor and those others are overseen, and any necessary accounta= bility mechanisms, just to name a few aspects.=C2=A0 A number of others wer= e discussed last year, and I=E2=80=99m sure those will come up again.=

What if anyth= ing changes is entirely up to the community, as this is being run under an = IAB open program, and it will be IETF community members who put forward bot= h problem statements and proposed solutions.

Your chair has no particular agenda wi= th regard to what the outcome of this work should be.=C2=A0 On the other ha= nd, with people having passionate views on this subject, my only agenda is = to try to make the experience positive for everyone.=C2=A0 Please help me i= n that endeavor, and in doing so we will reach for the broadest consensus.<= /span>

= Regardin= g working methods, our program charter says that we will operate similar to= an IETF working group.=C2=A0 Those procedures are spelled out in RFC 2418 = Section 3, and I propose to stay congruent with them so that there are no s= urprises. =C2=A0

With= this having been said, I propose to proceed as follows:

  1. Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor= =E2=80=9D for short problem statements that people think we need to address= . We should be clear on what we see as problems and their scope.<= /u>
  2. See if we = can get agreement on those.
  3. Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for proposa= ls on how to solve those problems.
  4. See if we can get a= greement on those.

For (1) and (3) we can provide so= me structure to facilitate comparison and discussion, if that is the wish o= f the group.=C2=A0 This in itself is a discussion point I invite you to add= ress.

The pace of this work will depend very much on how fast we come to= consensus on both the problems and the solutions. =C2=A0The t= iming of meetings will be driven by the group.=C2=A0 We can address that in= more detail in due course.

Do people find this agreeable?=C2=A0 Otherwi= se, please feel free to propose alternatives that the group can consider.

Eliot

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--000000000000fc9b6a05a2123edf-- From nobody Mon Mar 30 07:05:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15F823A1637 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 07:05:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ITdnKB9WEizd for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 07:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA0723A1631 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 07:04:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=928; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1585577094; x=1586786694; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ilvsbcj/W1c8XYlHNHNfGx8cKnwZIme6eb2BWeBgYTQ=; b=IW0PiHzdGw3hclhc1vPz8xsQA7eHMwOodTxN81zrRpKD+QZ2iuoSGVwA ntnOGogxW6r+je84HsTfDum0emvyHi2GuvQ1c3EWV4tRr/5lbOccw0qV+ oolRsqA7gjp/Fv6h3697b034k5WsrdOxsTte6c3IVgYHmOm7TC7xaMpe5 c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CLAQBK/IFe/xbLJq1mGgEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQMBAQEBEQEBAQICAQEBAYF7AoNnIRIqhBqJAogOiW2PYYF6CgEBAQwBAS8?= =?us-ascii?q?EAQGERAKCVjsDDQIDAQELAQEFAQEBAgEFBG2FYoVwAQEBAQIBI1YFCwsYAgI?= =?us-ascii?q?mAgIhNgYTgyaCTAMOIKt6dYEyhUuCOw2CIIEOKoxLggCBOCCCHy4+gh6CMIM?= =?us-ascii?q?SMoIsBKEXjwlFgkaCVpABhD4dm2yaZ40BgzQCBAYFAhWBfAMMgVgzGggbFTs?= =?us-ascii?q?qAYJBPhIYDZxnPwMwjxoBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.72,324,1580774400"; d="scan'208";a="24828083" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 30 Mar 2020 14:04:51 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp5419.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp5419.cisco.com [10.61.85.42]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 02UE4op4021739 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:04:50 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 16:04:48 +0200 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> To: "Andrew G. Malis" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.85.42, ams3-vpn-dhcp5419.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:05:03 -0000 Hi Andy, > On 30 Mar 2020, at 15:15, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >=20 > Eliot, >=20 > Thanks for taking on this job (I didn't want it to be thankless, so I = thought this would be a good way to begin). >=20 You=E2=80=99re very welcome! > I think a guiding principal should be - if it ain't broke, don't fix = it.=20 >=20 > To that end, is there an outgoing report from Heather from her = perspective as RFC Editor on what she thought was working and what she = thought needed improvement? >=20 > If there is one, sharing it with the group would be instructive.=20 I will ask around. >=20 > If there isn't, would it be possible for her to write one? Let=E2=80=99s first answer the first question. In the meantime, may I = ask that you and the people on this list answer the very same question = you asked? What works for you now? What do you believe needs fixing? Eliot= From nobody Mon Mar 30 09:07:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2859C3A1888 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:07:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R2Wz2O6Q_yUc for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E261E3A1871 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jIwwl-000KRv-DY; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:07:31 -0400 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:07:24 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Eliot Lear , "Andrew G. Malis" cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 16:07:47 -0000 Eliot, Responding to your first note but with your exchange with Andrew very much in mind... --On Monday, March 30, 2020 08:51 +0200 Eliot Lear wrote: >... > What if anything changes is entirely up to the community, as > this is being run under an IAB open program, and it will be > IETF community members who put forward both problem statements > and proposed solutions. >... My hypothesis is close to Andy's, reinforced by the discussions at IETF 102 and 105 and the reports from the meetings that brought this Program about: Very little is broken and the community (including and in addition to that of active IETF participants) wants a unified RFC Series with an Independent Stream, an RSE who is appropriately qualified from a technical publications management standpoint, and who manages the Series and sets editorial policy independently and from a high professional level, consulting the community as appropriate. If that is the case, then the answer to Andy's question would be that the only thing that has been broken over the last 18 months or so is that the IAB and/or RSOC lost track of the "independent" and "professional" parts and started trying to set policies and manage the series themselves and, as a possible unintended consequence, treating the RSE as contractor who could easily be replaced. On a slightly different topic, the issues associated with the 2020-2021 Nomcom and what, if any, changes are needed to the eligibility requirements for the future are still very active on the IETF and eligibility-discuss lists (in addition to many other issues, of course). For those of us who can only put in a limited number of hours a week on IETF-related work, paying careful attention to both sets of threads might be nearly impossible. Much as I hate to see this process delayed, would it be sensible to postpone active discussions here for a week or two in the hope that the other ones will settle down? best, john From nobody Mon Mar 30 10:07:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465313A060A for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:07:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Axva8oGk-B5 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63AE23A047F for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:07:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10931; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1585588060; x=1586797660; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=Q5jglN541Akjqrcs/VvD1IRp6Fe66wob0XrnejTVdZs=; b=AXchu1VnZ1YHo2zAgRc3WA6kjPoVRGWUfI+QGHB9CxRkqs23aJ72moiI /XopLXyvTxop55LPGWIsZZgYhTy+ODpWLXdH4SzelOd6w1uQ4vLDOLBIK 2MsxJuBJWD8QkETHd4QJiuiJnu7WcskQ11QimPGfkVmxBamvluCLj/IGI 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CDAAAIJ4Je/xbLJq1mGgEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQMBAQEBEQEBAQICAQEBAYF7gSWCRCESKoQaiQKIDpM9iAsKAQEBDAEBLwQ?= =?us-ascii?q?BAYREAoJWOBMCAwEBCwEBBQEBAQIBBQRthWKFcAEBAQECASNWBQsLGCoCAlc?= =?us-ascii?q?GE4Mmgl0grFR1gTKFS4RrgTiMS4IAgTgggh8uPoQlgzsygiwEihemToJGgla?= =?us-ascii?q?PIYUeHYJMiDCEModnhFenaIM0AgQGBQIVgWkigVgzGggbFTsqAYJBPhIYDVi?= =?us-ascii?q?cDz8DMIxXgWNgAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.72,325,1580774400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="24896251" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 30 Mar 2020 17:07:38 +0000 Received: from [10.61.237.69] ([10.61.237.69]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 02UH7b1P017237 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 30 Mar 2020 17:07:38 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C34BB1C4-0970-4C02-8783-93F0B4774542" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:07:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> Cc: Eliot Lear , "Andrew G. Malis" , rfced-future@iab.org To: John C Klensin References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.237.69, [10.61.237.69] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 17:07:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C34BB1C4-0970-4C02-8783-93F0B4774542 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi John, Thanks for your comments. Please see below. > On 30 Mar 2020, at 18:07, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 > On a slightly different topic, the issues associated with the > 2020-2021 Nomcom and what, if any, changes are needed to the > eligibility requirements for the future are still very active on > the IETF and eligibility-discuss lists (in addition to many > other issues, of course). For those of us who can only put in a > limited number of hours a week on IETF-related work, paying > careful attention to both sets of threads might be nearly > impossible. Much as I hate to see this process delayed, would > it be sensible to postpone active discussions here for a week or > two in the hope that the other ones will settle down? I appreciate your desire to take the time necessary to understand = others=E2=80=99 views, and to contribute in a meaningful way, and that = you have time pressures, as I am sure we all do. Thank you for having = chimed in with your views; it is now for others to do so. If this list = volume really becomes a problem, please do let me know. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_C34BB1C4-0970-4C02-8783-93F0B4774542 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = John,

Thanks for = your comments.  Please see below.

On 30 = Mar 2020, at 18:07, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> = wrote:

On a slightly different topic, = the issues associated with the
2020-2021 Nomcom and what, if any, changes are needed to = the
eligibility = requirements for the future are still very active on
the IETF and eligibility-discuss = lists (in addition to many
other issues, of course).  For those of us who can only = put in a
limited = number of hours a week on IETF-related work, paying
careful attention to both sets = of threads might be nearly
impossible.  Much as I hate to see this process delayed, = would
it be = sensible to postpone active discussions here for a week or
two in the hope that the other = ones will settle down?


I = appreciate your desire to take the time necessary to understand = others=E2=80=99 views, and to contribute in a meaningful way, and that = you have time pressures, as I am sure we all do.  Thank you for = having chimed in with your views; it is now for others to do so. =  If this list volume really becomes a problem, please do let me = know.

Eliot

= --Apple-Mail=_C34BB1C4-0970-4C02-8783-93F0B4774542-- From nobody Mon Mar 30 10:28:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8843A08EB for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:28:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.004 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.004 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LSjU9nir53LD for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com (mail-qk1-x735.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25C853A08C3 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id q188so19878806qke.8 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:28:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=msRwlnYrYVU3w5fqGVx54fQU03VCDygkB4CRohSxl+w=; b=WY7nAyZVL0wmGo+bT9oS3wmCQfdddayGayA1mk8sR5f34w6/M2rSt09QH2GKqpzSxZ BtmOpuF4XGYLZAKboEsOrtJpIo2e7KM+Uzf4MrnEtLxsuapxqCV6cROQB8FweeKd6G1J hB/+0UrNY9HCi4s5d9zdK6it+ZsKNlVKosB6r8KeUhvr2iEAv27nNoWrdYMnSpiL6k/T BEds5nYOmoSa1P/B+eJY8XHq80s4qE0MROQq5xWPEt7nHa7iFMkKx/06x5D1pUa2cis8 APDsNJKzNxxGSz151ongmq9Tnq9Kqz5KJEuVsfytYStws0DdsU0gEBZhUBMLoOzKfRKZ lyXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=msRwlnYrYVU3w5fqGVx54fQU03VCDygkB4CRohSxl+w=; b=pxVeMUpIC73pKRgBHntGkDbzawDYeUa/x4sEsOAsDksfL0rgHY7LmJVmDzQG9y6jBF tOjmKEBbZv4CL4RrAxCyBNPIwMFNKTBQh2GN32a54l5Ma1JbmA9td99rxg6tWrKpM65J Ki62WpWZRPwP4Fip7CLTm6u1+kS2koDubMZzi6z7ucUnHmq1p0EBEQOqQ4tHisNB+jnK 30BBatMl9KuyvgGFbdalR/C4eNv6IrtLVptyqDiKVgwyvPcgQHdJeXazshr2naJFXN+g LefPHKh1x1ufJq5Zk/dHzuh97OaCsrxHw+vmH2wqksaMU/XvRKqpKRSwj1WuQuWFmf8Q lMYA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1e7vhVT6T+BTAh1696RkEPpFdMJTuHBOZ/zw/8IY0ttUaQz9Ml Otnpwkru3EkVz92u7oPykRS2SA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vs030lD3nYEuYFco+Cy/zGwfC1BwXGueelmz4kTO2Vt9OqhduBGe7eZX2EWnTTToKZMXEFrdg== X-Received: by 2002:a37:453:: with SMTP id 80mr1051984qke.325.1585589326849; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.115] (pool-71-163-188-115.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [71.163.188.115]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r207sm10805961qke.136.2020.03.30.10.28.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:28:46 -0700 (PDT) To: rfced-future@iab.org, IAB References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> From: Michael StJohns Message-ID: <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:28:45 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F5F63A56A5F20D72F13C5755" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 17:28:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F5F63A56A5F20D72F13C5755 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree with John that we should delay this, but not for the same reasons.  My reason is that the IAB has not completed its work.   The announcement (and the community agreement on which that announcement was made) indicated the requirement for at least two chairs to represent multiple points of view, as well as the appointment of a Liaison from the IAB. The appointment of a single chair does not satisfy the agreement. If the IAB declines to appoint a second chair from the current volunteers, it should re-open the call for volunteers and arm twist until it gets sufficient volunteers. Until then, this program has not been formed.  Or at least that's my opinion, and I think an appeal indicating the IAB was not following its own rules would be successful. On another point: In a different note Eliot indicated that he wanted a co-chair so that the IAB could replace him if he went off the rails.  Again, working back to the community discussion hosted by Heather, this program is meant to be as independent as is feasible from the IAB.  Once appointed, the chairs should not fear replacement by the IAB unless there is sufficient public community urging to do so. So I await eagerly the appointment of the second chair and I believe that Nevil would be an acceptable choice to most of us who are interested in that topic.  I also await the designation of the Liaison. Later, Mike On 3/30/2020 1:07 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi John, > > Thanks for your comments.  Please see below. > >> On 30 Mar 2020, at 18:07, John C Klensin > > wrote: >> >> On a slightly different topic, the issues associated with the >> 2020-2021 Nomcom and what, if any, changes are needed to the >> eligibility requirements for the future are still very active on >> the IETF and eligibility-discuss lists (in addition to many >> other issues, of course).  For those of us who can only put in a >> limited number of hours a week on IETF-related work, paying >> careful attention to both sets of threads might be nearly >> impossible.  Much as I hate to see this process delayed, would >> it be sensible to postpone active discussions here for a week or >> two in the hope that the other ones will settle down? > > > I appreciate your desire to take the time necessary to understand > others’ views, and to contribute in a meaningful way, and that you > have time pressures, as I am sure we all do.  Thank you for having > chimed in with your views; it is now for others to do so.  If this > list volume really becomes a problem, please do let me know. > > Eliot > > --------------F5F63A56A5F20D72F13C5755 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I agree with John that we should delay this, but not for the same reasons.  My reason is that the IAB has not completed its work.   The announcement (and the community agreement on which that announcement was made) indicated the requirement for at least two chairs to represent multiple points of view, as well as the appointment of a Liaison from the IAB.  The appointment of a single chair does not satisfy the agreement.

If the IAB declines to appoint a second chair from the current volunteers, it should re-open the call for volunteers and arm twist until it gets sufficient volunteers.  Until then, this program has not been formed.  Or at least that's my opinion, and I think an appeal indicating the IAB was not following its own rules would be successful.

On another point: In a different note Eliot indicated that he wanted a co-chair so that the IAB could replace him if he went off the rails.  Again, working back to the community discussion hosted by Heather, this program is meant to be as independent as is feasible from the IAB.  Once appointed, the chairs should not fear replacement by the IAB unless there is sufficient public community urging to do so.  

So I await eagerly the appointment of the second chair and I believe that Nevil would be an acceptable choice to most of us who are interested in that topic.  I also await the designation of the Liaison.

Later, Mike



On 3/30/2020 1:07 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
Hi John,

Thanks for your comments.  Please see below.

On 30 Mar 2020, at 18:07, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> wrote:

On a slightly different topic, the issues associated with the
2020-2021 Nomcom and what, if any, changes are needed to the
eligibility requirements for the future are still very active on
the IETF and eligibility-discuss lists (in addition to many
other issues, of course).  For those of us who can only put in a
limited number of hours a week on IETF-related work, paying
careful attention to both sets of threads might be nearly
impossible.  Much as I hate to see this process delayed, would
it be sensible to postpone active discussions here for a week or
two in the hope that the other ones will settle down?


I appreciate your desire to take the time necessary to understand others’ views, and to contribute in a meaningful way, and that you have time pressures, as I am sure we all do.  Thank you for having chimed in with your views; it is now for others to do so.  If this list volume really becomes a problem, please do let me know.

Eliot



--------------F5F63A56A5F20D72F13C5755-- From nobody Mon Mar 30 10:43:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45BAA3A0917; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:43:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SRYGiM8kYkXn; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hans.rg.net (hans.rg.net [IPv6:2001:418:1::42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601113A0913; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.11.251] (c-73-96-132-59.hsd1.or.comcast.net [73.96.132.59]) (authenticated bits=0) by hans.rg.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02UHhrjL040723 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 30 Mar 2020 17:43:54 GMT (envelope-from llynch@civil-tongue.net) X-Authentication-Warning: hans.rg.net: Host c-73-96-132-59.hsd1.or.comcast.net [73.96.132.59] claimed to be [192.168.11.251] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-F920A988-8E23-4897-BCA4-8C7D0E4BE1CD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Lucy Lynch In-Reply-To: <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:43:47 -0700 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, IAB Message-Id: <9F6ED13D-A84B-4F36-8235-957D771D4B10@civil-tongue.net> References: <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> To: Michael StJohns X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17D50) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 17:43:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail-F920A988-8E23-4897-BCA4-8C7D0E4BE1CD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 30, 2020, at 10:29 AM, Michael StJohns wro= te: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > I agree with John that we should delay this, but not for the same reasons.= My reason is that the IAB has not completed its work. The announcement (= and the community agreement on which that announcement was made) indicated t= he requirement for at least two chairs to represent multiple points of view,= as well as the appointment of a Liaison from the IAB. The appointment of a= single chair does not satisfy the agreement. >=20 Plus one to this - we need to begin with as much trust as we can gather and m= eeting the community based agreements fir this work seems like a minimum req= uirement. > If the IAB declines to appoint a second chair from the current volunteers,= it should re-open the call for volunteers and arm twist until it gets suffi= cient volunteers. Until then, this program has not been formed. Or at leas= t that's my opinion, and I think an appeal indicating the IAB was not follow= ing its own rules would be successful. >=20 > On another point: In a different note Eliot indicated that he wanted a co-= chair so that the IAB could replace him if he went off the rails. Again, wo= rking back to the community discussion hosted by Heather, this program is me= ant to be as independent as is feasible from the IAB. Once appointed, the c= hairs should not fear replacement by the IAB unless there is sufficient publ= ic community urging to do so. =20 >=20 > So I await eagerly the appointment of the second chair and I believe that N= evil would be an acceptable choice to most of us who are interested in that t= opic. I also await the designation of the Liaison. >=20 Again - plus one on the Liaison. This is anew set of IAB members so a little= time allowed for them to sort this out should also be helpful. Another reas= on to delay any substantive discussion. > Later, Mike >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 3/30/2020 1:07 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Hi John, >>=20 >> Thanks for your comments. Please see below. >>=20 >>> On 30 Mar 2020, at 18:07, John C Klensin wrote: >>>=20 >>> On a slightly different topic, the issues associated with the >>> 2020-2021 Nomcom and what, if any, changes are needed to the >>> eligibility requirements for the future are still very active on >>> the IETF and eligibility-discuss lists (in addition to many >>> other issues, of course). For those of us who can only put in a >>> limited number of hours a week on IETF-related work, paying >>> careful attention to both sets of threads might be nearly >>> impossible. Much as I hate to see this process delayed, would >>> it be sensible to postpone active discussions here for a week or >>> two in the hope that the other ones will settle down? >>=20 >>=20 >> I appreciate your desire to take the time necessary to understand others=E2= =80=99 views, and to contribute in a meaningful way, and that you have time p= ressures, as I am sure we all do. Thank you for having chimed in with your v= iews; it is now for others to do so. If this list volume really becomes a p= roblem, please do let me know. >>=20 >> Eliot >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --Apple-Mail-F920A988-8E23-4897-BCA4-8C7D0E4BE1CD Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sent from my iPhon= e

On Mar 30, 2020, at 10= :29 AM, Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF =20 =20 =20
I agree with John that we should delay this, but not for the same reasons.  My reason is that the IAB ha= s not completed its work.   The announcement (and the communit= y agreement on which that announcement was made) indicated the requirement for at least two chairs to represent multiple points of view, as well as the appointment of a Liaison from the IAB.  The appointment of a single chair does not satisfy the agreement.


Plus one to this - we need to begin with as much trust as we can gat= her and meeting the community based agreements fir this work seems like a mi= nimum requirement.

If the IAB declines to appoint a second chair from the current volunteers, it should re-open the call for volunteers and arm twist until it gets sufficient volunteers.  Until then, this program has not been formed.  Or at least that's= my opinion, and I think an appeal indicating the IAB was not following its own rules would be successful.

On another point: In a different note Eliot indicated that he wanted a co-chair so that the IAB could replace him if he went off the rails.  Again, working back to the= community discussion hosted by Heather, this program is meant to be as independent as is feasible from the IAB.  Once appointed, the chairs should not fear replacement by the IAB unless there is sufficient public community urging to do so.  

So I await eagerly the appointment of the second chair and I believe that Nevil would be an acceptable choice to most of us who are interested in that topic.  I also await the designation of the Liaison.


Again - plus one on the Liaison. This is anew set of IAB members so a= little time allowed for them to sort this out should also be helpful. Anoth= er reason to delay any substantive discussion.

Later, Mike



On 3/30/2020 1:07 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
Hi John,

Thanks for your comments.  Please see below.

On 30 Mar 2020, at 18:07, John C Klensin <john-ie= tf@jck.com> wrote:

On a slightly different topic, the issues associated with the
2020-2021 Nomcom and what, if any, changes are needed to the
eligibility requirements for the future are still very active on
the IETF and eligibility-discuss lists (in addition to many
other issues, of course).  For those of us who can only put in a
limited number of hours a week on IETF-related work, paying
careful attention to both sets of threads might be nearly
impossible.  Much as I hate to s= ee this process delayed, would
it be sensible to postpone active discussions here for a week or
two in the hope that the other ones will settle down?


I appreciate your desire to take the time necessary to understand others=E2=80=99 views, and to contribute in a meaningf= ul way, and that you have time pressures, as I am sure we all do.  Thank you for having chimed in with your views; it is now for others to do so.  If this list volume really becomes a problem,= please do let me know.

Eliot



=20 --
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-fu= ture@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-futu= re
= --Apple-Mail-F920A988-8E23-4897-BCA4-8C7D0E4BE1CD-- From nobody Mon Mar 30 12:56:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D2F73A0958; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:56:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xxoeq89joTPZ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.hardakers.net (mail.hardakers.net [168.150.192.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 569BB3A0954; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by mail.hardakers.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DAA6B297E2; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:56:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Wes Hardaker To: Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, IAB References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:56:04 -0700 In-Reply-To: <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> (Michael StJohns's message of "Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:28:45 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:56:09 -0000 Michael StJohns writes: > So I await eagerly the appointment of the second chair and I believe > that Nevil would be an acceptable choice to most of us who are > interested in that topic.=C2=A0 I also await the designation of the > Liaison. Hi Mike, The IAB has selected 2 liasons to the program: Jared Mauch and myself, per: https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-future-development-progr= am/ --=20 Wes Hardaker USC/ISI From nobody Mon Mar 30 13:31:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFEA93A109B for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:31:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id trX6CWGIUYUw for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com (mail-pf1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BF7F3A1095 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id q3so9147542pff.13 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:31:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9ob+E+Nv76peqzMJRjHKzvfuc/0zrBg1mMlJRZOikzw=; b=X5Qq2QX2GlebpeEQvFYPRweuwYLEctOjODcDvjtHV09PUFUvCDy/Y6oS+oAxXBpAs3 9OzBR5WC7xqL6KFZefh1eXyI9QxQkbq2n53tmGthqpOQ2O7+kc85Zh6AI/Cy+64Ao7A5 hueNbC3KX83tMZFuLqabkFUk0a6C8abHh28ZCP0H4JUN/cwGDmlfD6KbG64J+SYyus/Y 1a9ktzs1C2FfdY+3NFYFxms7QiXH3HWP2arT0hhTDAW7FJbZsOIirqOQrqNAhti7Mrl/ aN2kF6UffcBQIUN8ZeJXoqJYsJav2/j41bwh1Vr2HqUwN8hkjnFe3H3UcfGseWu9sz+T FShQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9ob+E+Nv76peqzMJRjHKzvfuc/0zrBg1mMlJRZOikzw=; b=INsmod2PS5ouiE9x2hzjLLBpl5V7uWUhDIzbK4RZ18A5LnvHdGvIkWtuibu7OL1V79 UKxNtzaBjU3AJEIznRbwupuT+/dTeDclmGXfGDQzrroKTu+KQoGalpAczo+oeq5qJENH JdHvxEZQ0ACBUXGQ2yvB9SP/DeGaHnYrjfK7IZI7qt6GaByqR85O3MWdKeL0tDn5wKIF ehnJKKP2f8cskOz4H5gjr/53J7S0YofO5wXzp1P6KzfG/cgY2c5WVTSayEjkExrWMHF1 oRA5lWFVY+zf8VNWBPAUPeAqkyHHH2XVXRvc4s0rfB2GaMVzMEliLSPmFucpjSpL6tp9 jYew== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0+t2psuXEHJ3Dj6NYB//sCSAHeD9YrS8ncvh2AnRAhpgvW+I5C UGSJsYRUE1vkpszTcyoJo2Ujc2kt X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vv6rji9Xxalus8AiGqnaIRJoC/PxRzzm978mJBA3Z4T0l7TU3tI1pk15WmeaSn1VdaNMcJcHA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:a1e:: with SMTP id 30mr14304542pgk.146.1585600277686; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d71sm10969615pfd.46.2020.03.30.13.31.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:31:17 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org References: <7966EFE1-A3DE-4D6C-836C-47D6ECEE941F@cisco.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <3734d9ee-9ff1-5be8-1e5c-93fea86b6660@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 09:31:14 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7966EFE1-A3DE-4D6C-836C-47D6ECEE941F@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Some reading material X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:31:20 -0000 Since you asked, here's an opiniated (and expired) draft: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-request-for-comments-01.t= xt It's partly overtaken by events but there a number of points that I belie= ve are still very relevant. Regards Brian On 30-Mar-20 22:00, Eliot Lear wrote: > For those who wish to brush up on the RFC Editor, here is a brief readi= ng list. =C2=A0Feel free to suggest additional material. >=20 > * draft-flanagan-rseme-03 > * RFCs 8700, 5540, and 2555 on the series history >=20 > * RFC 8728 RFC Editor Model (Version 2.0) > * RFC 8729 The RFC Series and RFC Editor > * RFC 8730 The Independent Submission Editor Model > * Olaf Kolkman=E2=80=99s presentation on the RFC Editor Model in Mont= real > * All the minutes of the interims from last year >=20 >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 From nobody Mon Mar 30 13:38:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CBE3A0C97; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:38:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:37:51 -0700 (PDT) To: Wes Hardaker , Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, IAB References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 09:37:48 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:38:08 -0000 On 31-Mar-20 08:56, Wes Hardaker wrote: > Michael StJohns writes: >=20 >> So I await eagerly the appointment of the second chair and I believe >> that Nevil would be an acceptable choice to most of us who are >> interested in that topic.=C2=A0 I also await the designation of the >> Liaison. >=20 > Hi Mike, >=20 > The IAB has selected 2 liasons to the program: Jared Mauch and myself, = per: >=20 > https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-future-development-p= rogram/ Good, thanks. It might have been nice to see that formally announced but = I guess the new IAB needs a few days to get up to speed. That said, can the liaisons let us know about the 2nd chair as soon as po= ssible? I see the arguments for a slight delay to substantive discussion, but I'd= like to suggest another topic that should be tackled early: what are the basic pr= inciples of the RFC series and its Editor's role? I'm not sure that has really eve= r been properly written down as a separate "mission statement" or whatever. Brian From nobody Mon Mar 30 13:57:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C7C3A111D; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:57:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 130jNWlc4Lrl; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.hardakers.net (mail.hardakers.net [168.150.192.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 338F63A111C; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by mail.hardakers.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 9820A297E2; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:57:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Wes Hardaker To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Wes Hardaker , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org, IAB References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:57:33 -0700 In-Reply-To: (Brian E. Carpenter's message of "Tue, 31 Mar 2020 09:37:48 +1300") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:57:35 -0000 Brian E Carpenter writes: > That said, can the liaisons let us know about the 2nd chair as soon as > possible? Yes, we'll certainly be passing on information as soon as we can. That being said, I can't promise a timeline at this point. > what are the basic principles of the RFC series and its Editor's role? > I'm not sure that has really ever been properly written down as a > separate "mission statement" or whatever. [though the first half of your message was directed to the liasons, this half seems directed to the discussion at hand, so I'm not responding to it] -- Wes Hardaker USC/ISI From nobody Mon Mar 30 14:12:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C47183A03EE; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:12:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=11cLtEJL; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=FVhGGVsJ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E-nSQHMnV2yg; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1C673A08B1; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8B85C00E6; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 17:03:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 30 Mar 2020 17:03:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=p Z9k3uKdgP6NUdskD0yLxZ+j8dpcFVFZdVkTLtrx8QI=; b=11cLtEJLxISr6Zahg KIXLMUztiJVX1IhN7ZjXDgBf+JpYF17j/hstV8mUOjUB6uN/k8phGkXtOvy/LQvH 9ZReb331s0PWntzKp3T6H0fKuvs5Q5XD54iSwj5BHQzpYwQFR3LsiSRi0SSEY5AK UpGe0h8U5yavN/DA77YyMPFOWdWUtk4RlFPHcCBcsstyU1N2jOm+CTUiO7YOu1kP 52Ln11qZ0LzEcIINO8J7tRlnsu3F1kB75wxxVTBpO3n0AEqFVf5VLrrM4mwdzC9d 12M6y/ZS9opBMSdTLMQAi0doIg3OgDqBNZ4Svd17OIhrP1ZFs4U00v53AuqlsoQr KbsGg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=pZ9k3uKdgP6NUdskD0yLxZ+j8dpcFVFZdVkTLtrx8 QI=; b=FVhGGVsJS09q8gumdbthAwjUx+0qJlxHgW9BWhYHZZmjVZBJqW4yAa5NU 75FopicckLzMmKkqUAlRvW1QUkYVqDG/5rkQH6Pj9r7po1tUlsjzJ9gtiziT8QT1 CLz0mjUbmw/e9X2WGg0gETTiD3xii5PZ+JNAtLZTlbSjTXxNoB0kkVKj7qEIKilo Ym1zwffOjIw6urR2YB3/nkZ6hhvBIl3Sg0zseMfUW/1l1dWN4kvGy06jxJZT9F4y hrDC2q79ZWb+Y1K/xE0Ex5HUJxf0gTL/zNgf8HjAlmYZuO/PaxaxozMCjfAeLbOD xS4fV6ARNU42GR0jkJiMl7V/2YNcw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrudeihedgudehiecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghr khcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrih hnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepudduledrudejrdduheekrddvhedunecuvehluhhs thgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhoth drnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: from attitudadjuster.mnot.net (unknown [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 95241306CA3D; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 17:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 08:03:24 +1100 Cc: Wes Hardaker , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org, IAB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 21:12:31 -0000 > On 31 Mar 2020, at 7:37 am, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > what are the basic principles > of the RFC series and its Editor's role? I'm not sure that has really = ever been > properly written down as a separate "mission statement" or whatever. One thing that occurred to me recently is that, while this program is = defined with the following scope: > Discussion of changes to how the RFC Editor function is managed, = staffed, and overseen are all within scope.=20 It isn't said whether discussion of the RFC Series itself (and potential = changes to it) are in scope. Defining the principles of the series seems = like it's more the latter than the former. Could we (Eliot?) come to some determination about whether the latter is = in scope or not for this program? I suspect having that well understood = -- either way it goes -- will help considerably. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Mar 30 14:23:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D60B3A135E for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:23:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e-RXaBRsn2KO; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 162B33A082A; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:23:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Message-Id: <73DCA366-B9E5-4F38-834F-7AD60804D771@ietf.org> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 10:23:53 +1300 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Data gathering support X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 21:23:57 -0000 Eliot One of my goals for this year is to significantly improve the quality = and availability of data for decision making, which will mean a = comprehensive initiative of data gathering including surveys, internal = measurement (e.g. how much we spend on X, how long Y process takes) and = comparative analysis (how do we compare to other organisations for X). I am happy to incorporate into that any specific data gathering = requirements that you may have for this program. Please just let me = know. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org From nobody Mon Mar 30 14:24:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E7623A135E; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:24:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T9RIeQ2hFfbf; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x543.google.com (mail-pg1-x543.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::543]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 162263A1345; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x543.google.com with SMTP id 142so9275550pgf.11; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:24:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/dV6icG4fFbX+Gzn5f9Lly94QSqpKY4TyiZTYoVipvg=; b=DSo7zfbUoOl/Z7Ot2P12l6CbX7s59mk37w724VZu6qkxcjsmeCMg0KJfyab/cr82r+ NMF+uHvHsGvxCWPJn4xQLrxD8q9YusOxovlA0imhJOn7iQb+rYKVWpLZIZzXRgOtvdDX hcTC68PQXHGfavW5nyH01oMh54BJctXL5FsscIvCuLKfE2e+BW2LyiLGlx7ixade+B2S Mf6R7VZmI/HmnaZBpaRIVZKWGhy/bod5nLr8pT1GiqvmVpIa0ggRtatzWGSsKVbjDOsM Kkr3NgQxOU8C3x2u0YmwE0z3v6O5hFIOs41tjhXqI5Wh7us96dy1SwmI2L2T/qKSkfYl Cf1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/dV6icG4fFbX+Gzn5f9Lly94QSqpKY4TyiZTYoVipvg=; b=nmmEuz+GDr1nCvc64rQ4zSrJDBd72/N9l2GBUPyLwyRy3PIrx2x8li2McZDdWAHfhH 9RpU0hjpV9mNv240r4m3OZp8HyTxMLPO9p7lgPh6cH/sRuvaOBM5DzECeBB+uZOUxeZq L3VRnf2C0J92zyGRD+LiGq1wCGUqMiwmBJLUvIqiogqi8Ox8q3KDxlYDy5RDqRPcZlbB RaPsFmiA6JGJNOK4NX1hpiwhIPXEqOzLtoNHXYBAEjhjkc4FDCsuHclejwQp5hag1zp1 GDWoyhdTtLvhJaYQHxBBt+3HFxyJ2TdQWN9l/OsEqzHziS21uGnuxkWDS8CvYsCTlDf1 wOjA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3TxnBqPvleod+WSrTzW+mziBS+dZ0EfT8NtvpI8mcJbAd+RtgP Oz1UFZwDvWWW56/St1laJ54+tRq1 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vt1g1XeYQ1s8ZqeCJshzJtg06M6hReOCYy3xt8O336pO4aJItZ0ZkJ6BBp8u8IRU0a31yED9w== X-Received: by 2002:a63:ec44:: with SMTP id r4mr14074132pgj.425.1585603450326; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t63sm10153641pgc.85.2020.03.30.14.24.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:24:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Wes Hardaker , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org, IAB References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <86a4a270-6411-a817-6157-3b7932dd1918@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 10:24:06 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 21:24:12 -0000 On 31-Mar-20 10:03, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> On 31 Mar 2020, at 7:37 am, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> what are the basic principles >> of the RFC series and its Editor's role? I'm not sure that has really ever been >> properly written down as a separate "mission statement" or whatever. > > > One thing that occurred to me recently is that, while this program is defined with the following scope: > >> Discussion of changes to how the RFC Editor function is managed, staffed, and overseen are all within scope. > > It isn't said whether discussion of the RFC Series itself (and potential changes to it) are in scope. Defining the principles of the series seems like it's more the latter than the former. > > Could we (Eliot?) come to some determination about whether the latter is in scope or not for this program? I suspect having that well understood -- either way it goes -- will help considerably. Yes. What I should have added is that while it probably isn't our job to define the mission, if we don't have a common understanding of it, we are unlikely to converge on much of anything. Brian From nobody Mon Mar 30 14:40:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794663A1388; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:40:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mDAgfcwJEztU; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC64C3A137E; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:40:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1419; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1585604420; x=1586814020; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=dAwZ8NUqwu3t40ILu0hxkbtyWRguOBVnfthn+v2kHqo=; b=XPT6OF1KVp1V/nY1bThe9sNgC42a+7L0kOCj1XH3GpzYhOkHA7BoTrQv CZ2xxiywpbNN4oDXQbk+wXaQbfa8WeR87RvekD2B0bDrKXnaxFBN8LDxQ mBRKXohtELp6txVCm5nd/RhhmxDlN7vzt7dwpWfbou3fdaEcgKDEch38N g=; X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BbAACAZoJe/xbLJq1mGgEBAQEBAQEBAQMBAQEBEQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QICAQEBAYF7hAoSKoQaiQKIDoltkVsKAQEBDAEBLwQBAYREAoJWOBMCAwEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QMCAwEBAQEFAQEBAgEFBG2FYoVwAQEBAQIBI1YFCwsOCgICJgICITYGE4Mmg?= =?us-ascii?q?kwDDiCtHXWBMoVLgkkNgiCBDiqMS4IAgTgggh8uPoIegjCDEjKCLASwIEWCR?= =?us-ascii?q?oJWkAGEPh2PLow+mmeNAYM0AgQGBQIVgWkigVgzGggbFWUBgkE+EhgNjikXj?= =?us-ascii?q?ic/AzACj0UBAQ?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.72,325,1580774400"; d="scan'208";a="22582955" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 30 Mar 2020 21:40:17 +0000 Received: from [10.61.237.69] ([10.61.237.69]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 02ULeGxe020307 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 30 Mar 2020 21:40:17 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 23:40:16 +0200 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org, IAB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <645A58A0-1E68-4CEC-B4AE-4ABBA838BC0B@cisco.com> References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.237.69, [10.61.237.69] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 21:40:22 -0000 Hi Mark, > On 30 Mar 2020, at 23:03, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 >> On 31 Mar 2020, at 7:37 am, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>=20 >> what are the basic principles >> of the RFC series and its Editor's role? I'm not sure that has really = ever been >> properly written down as a separate "mission statement" or whatever. >=20 >=20 > One thing that occurred to me recently is that, while this program is = defined with the following scope: >=20 >> Discussion of changes to how the RFC Editor function is managed, = staffed, and overseen are all within scope.=20 >=20 > It isn't said whether discussion of the RFC Series itself (and = potential changes to it) are in scope. Defining the principles of the = series seems like it's more the latter than the former. >=20 That=E2=80=99s a good point, but perhaps it also depends on just how = much influence the RFC Editor is meant to have on the series versus = other bodies. > Could we (Eliot?) come to some determination about whether the latter = is in scope or not for this program? I suspect having that well = understood -- either way it goes -- will help considerably. Do people agree with Mark? What is important to me is that we have an agreed basis for how to = proceed with the discussion. That=E2=80=99s something that I would like = to nail down Real Soon Now. Eliot From nobody Mon Mar 30 15:06:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C69F53A143C; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:06:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D-M5E9J905vt; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2655F3A1437; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jJ2Xc-000LKH-FQ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 18:05:56 -0400 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 18:05:50 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Mark Nottingham , Brian E Carpenter cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns , IAB , Wes Hardaker Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 22:06:03 -0000 --On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 08:03 +1100 Mark Nottingham wrote: >> On 31 Mar 2020, at 7:37 am, Brian E Carpenter >> wrote: >> >> what are the basic principles >> of the RFC series and its Editor's role? I'm not sure that >> has really ever been properly written down as a separate >> "mission statement" or whatever. > > > One thing that occurred to me recently is that, while this > program is defined with the following scope: > >> Discussion of changes to how the RFC Editor function is >> managed, staffed, and overseen are all within scope. > > It isn't said whether discussion of the RFC Series itself (and > potential changes to it) are in scope. Defining the principles > of the series seems like it's more the latter than the former. Mark, I can't parse "latter and former" in the above. > Could we (Eliot?) come to some determination about whether the > latter is in scope or not for this program? I suspect having > that well understood -- either way it goes -- will help > considerably. Definitely. As two tests of the scope question, I may not have correctly understood the proposals but, if I have, various people including yourself have suggested that IETF Standards Track documents (presumably including both technical and procedural BCP) and possibly all IETF Stream documents either become living documents or be restructured so that each one is complete onto itself rather than, as is typical, normatively referencing a collection of others. Independent of the merits of those ideas (and other issues with them), such a change might call for a radically different structure of the RFC Editor Function and probably a different role and set of qualifications for the RSE. I have also heard it suggested that, in the absence of an incumbent RSE, this would be the right time to split the Series up into separately-numbered series for each stream or for the IETF stream separate from the others. That, too, might require a different structure and/or a different set of qualifications for the RSE. So, would those two examples be in scope or not? thanks, john From nobody Mon Mar 30 16:05:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F183A1541; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 16:05:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=IaJLgdOO; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=EseLZ2TN Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1kxjpw_sZVVc; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 16:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04A5D3A1540; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 16:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EDB65C00ED; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:05:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:05:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=H agL/rC96FOdsUGH2nRWUb3lR4ijqN42CYi29dUwzRY=; b=IaJLgdOOQAPc8r3uA kuB83ZaxQMRqfNItHXC8/Zl3NTIHf38mpa9U/fr6QikfGid7sl1K4aEfTUcNpyC1 OwyEUpLDCmHM9CrGsRhEhh5RG3IcFb1/UL1BXh2ubSfNoX5xqL6H5AWYo8xCYlDI sBADzZ0WXMP3hPbEskD9lV88WMw4Yj8zr+Rdr37fHEEn+oKnt9zQfbafQt8378oJ JP41WlfJJiSaE9gp71FE47oyFxG1O5X8Chmwf9/11GMNj5pu4przkO7hZGqJWCvF Y86I36vvTZlIcOK2OJ/2wnanQ9C/Ht1o12Irw+iKpLV3UgOebVqAReHu8QYjdONF YBCWA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=HagL/rC96FOdsUGH2nRWUb3lR4ijqN42CYi29dUwz RY=; b=EseLZ2TNVI2RmS/8stwW9Gx/4yFLJP78FHhEtA1R6eBIB2bCFUuBok4Jv /wCdQg84fSohtojby6gMXdPx5MxQPBd8E324BNeJ0BIOZRAyWg/8cs2rC2fp7yXM 41KjN9f4Ln65RZO/NZLnKuXmMkbnU4YW1QWIyJYWKljeRYshhXcMfjQpX3mf+bz2 nVq2d5twPNAFvD4GOix29DJ2cMdw27PRwd0+nfuGr9BDZubAo005cT98VIbp0Ds8 Si2uWpJr7+ivU89Dwc/4Lfswu1ECYktIUiDPJwxq1vW5lMiFCGVAifVTE7knBWDf vEl3aSs7DQQyalE3NiWhtq83WQRhA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrudeiiedgudejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinh epmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeduudelrddujedrudehkedrvdehudenucevlhhushht vghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrd hnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from attitudadjuster.mnot.net (unknown [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 22466328005D; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 10:05:29 +1100 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns , IAB , Wes Hardaker Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 23:05:42 -0000 Hi John, > On 31 Mar 2020, at 9:05 am, John C Klensin wrote: >>=20 >>> Discussion of changes to how the RFC Editor function is >>> managed, staffed, and overseen are all within scope.=20 ^^ former >> It isn't said whether discussion of the RFC Series itself (and >> potential changes to it) ^^ latter >> are in scope. Defining the principles >> of the series seems like it's more the latter than the former. >=20 > Mark, I can't parse "latter and former" in the above. >=20 >> Could we (Eliot?) come to some determination about whether the >> latter is in scope or not for this program? I suspect having >> that well understood -- either way it goes -- will help >> considerably. >=20 > Definitely. =20 >=20 > As two tests of the scope question, I may not have correctly > understood the proposals but, if I have, various people > including yourself have suggested that IETF Standards Track > documents (presumably including both technical and procedural > BCP) and possibly all IETF Stream documents either become living > documents or be restructured so that each one is complete onto > itself rather than, as is typical, normatively referencing a > collection of others. Independent of the merits of those ideas > (and other issues with them), such a change might call for a > radically different structure of the RFC Editor Function and > probably a different role and set of qualifications for the RSE. Why so? I'd expect that a professional with the appropriate experience = be able to adapt to different publication requirements; after all, we're = already a unique "publication", so we're asking someone to learn a lot = of lore and publication-specific arcana anyway. Yes, they would have to = establish new policies and procedures, and possibly ask for different = kinds of resources from the LLC, but it's not like they'll need to spool = up a widget manufacturing plant in the process of making those changes. The part of this role that does seem to be challenging is leading the = series in the context of this community -- especially given what appears = to be diverging views about what the RFC Series should be -- rather than = the specifics of publication. What this program _might_ be able to do is = reduce is the inherent pressures that this puts on the RFC Editor, by = examining how such decisions are made and the RFC Editors' role in them. > I have also heard it suggested that, in the absence of an > incumbent RSE, this would be the right time to split the Series > up into separately-numbered series for each stream or for the > IETF stream separate from the others. That, too, might require > a different structure and/or a different set of qualifications > for the RSE. Personally, I don't think it's the right time for such a change, and I'm = a bit surprised to hear it's been suggested. > So, would those two examples be in scope or not? I didn't express a preference in the original e-mail, but I'm leaning = towards considering discussion of the RFC Series itself out of scope for = this effort, for the reasons stated above, and because I'd like our work = to remain "difficult", not shift to "impossible". I'm not entirely sure = we'll be able to avoid it, though. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Mar 30 23:44:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C23113A0DF9; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 23:44:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u43_zpWvLlfU; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 23:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF2563A0DF6; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 23:44:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5794; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1585637044; x=1586846644; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=EZ4+DS3EXMuTzfNHdu+ZXvWuBuXoyJsSlQAtncmVpDw=; b=MiHMG/jSRNUPiCwrQvxJR1VUYHeg/9n4d5gpMM5dxArG4nmCFZjtCZTg olnrLuJuZEbDVCm1HojjVcBu/m4DQZ1m/e+fWZrWHbB/FjqKRGSXtpjX7 OxhSeN7KMaLJ4yl9suFVoBhkEprcxaDkgNf3+qvUfHmwC3fPbamL6fv6v Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BkAABI5oJe/xbLJq1mGgEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQMBAQEBEQEBAQICAQEBAYF7gXgFgRhUASASKo0ch2oliWyJUIgKCgEBAQw?= =?us-ascii?q?BARgBCgwEAQGERAKCVzgTAgMBAQsBAQUBAQECAQUEbYVWDIVwAQEBAQIBAQF?= =?us-ascii?q?sCwULCw4KLiEGMAYTFIMSAYJLAw4gD6xEgieFS4JUDYIaBoE4jEuCAIE4DBS?= =?us-ascii?q?CHy4+gh5JAYUqgiwEsChFgkeCVpADhD4WB48vjD+aa40BgzQCBAYFAhWBaSK?= =?us-ascii?q?BWDMaCBsVOyoBgkE+EhgNjikXgQQBDocWO4VDPwMwAo8LAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.72,327,1580774400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="24912389" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 31 Mar 2020 06:44:01 +0000 Received: from [10.61.237.69] ([10.61.237.69]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 02V6hxfK021362 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 31 Mar 2020 06:44:01 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9BA02B10-B3BF-4529-8A44-517E293AF06E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 08:43:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns , IAB To: Mark Nottingham References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.237.69, [10.61.237.69] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 06:44:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9BA02B10-B3BF-4529-8A44-517E293AF06E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi again, With apologies to Mark, he pointed out to me that I misinterpreted his = message. Taking another swing. > On 30 Mar 2020, at 23:03, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 >> On 31 Mar 2020, at 7:37 am, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>=20 >> what are the basic principles >> of the RFC series and its Editor's role? I'm not sure that has really = ever been >> properly written down as a separate "mission statement" or whatever. >=20 >=20 > One thing that occurred to me recently is that, while this program is = defined with the following scope: >=20 >> Discussion of changes to how the RFC Editor function is managed, = staffed, and overseen are all within scope.=20 >=20 > It isn't said whether discussion of the RFC Series itself (and = potential changes to it) are in scope. Defining the principles of the = series seems like it's more the latter than the former. >=20 > Could we (Eliot?) come to some determination about whether the latter = is in scope or not for this program? I suspect having that well = understood -- either way it goes -- will help considerably. To state the question in a slightly different way: Should the program worry about the structure of the series or should the = program worry about putting in place someone who could lead the = community in worrying about the structure of the series (among other = things)? =20 A related question: Should we establish a process that addresses series evolution over time = or should we leave that for later? I think these sorts of questions are good to sort out in advance so that = we know best how to direct our energies. Eliot >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --Apple-Mail=_9BA02B10-B3BF-4529-8A44-517E293AF06E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = again,

With = apologies to Mark, he pointed out to me that I misinterpreted his = message.  Taking another swing.

On 30 = Mar 2020, at 23:03, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

On 31 Mar 2020, at 7:37 = am, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

what are the basic principles
of the RFC series = and its Editor's role? I'm not sure that has really ever been
properly written down as a separate "mission statement" or = whatever.


One = thing that occurred to me recently is that, while this program is = defined with the following scope:

Discussion of changes to how the RFC Editor = function is managed, staffed, and overseen are all within scope.

It isn't said whether discussion = of the RFC Series itself (and potential changes to it) are in scope. = Defining the principles of the series seems like it's more the latter = than the former.

Could we (Eliot?) come to = some determination about whether the latter is in scope or not for this = program? I suspect having that well understood -- either way it goes -- = will help considerably.

To state the question in a slightly different = way:

  • Should the program worry about the structure of the series or = should the program worry about putting in place someone who could lead = the community in worrying about the structure of the series (among other = things)?  

A related question:

  • Should we establish a process that addresses series evolution = over time or should we leave that for later?

I think these sorts of = questions are good to sort out in advance so that we know best how to = direct our energies.

Eliot


Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham =   https://www.mnot.net/

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

= --Apple-Mail=_9BA02B10-B3BF-4529-8A44-517E293AF06E-- From nobody Tue Mar 31 05:57:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB39F3A20AD; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 05:57:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sf50ua9wQ6Gd; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 05:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FF433A20AA; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 05:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48s8VP43GRz6GB0Q; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 05:57:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1585659421; bh=rjtDg6kG36rBDvVNDo9a1/KweKrMCWH12ZeNBtbgTns=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=p4/DhLrcRW/Kof1/PJdvE+fWTM7QDLUlRdTAVBf/ohpKhr8Np+S7+JMQ11xbzGjyk YYmo8Dbm+5Qi+v2yzBoj4KWPQu75phx1p2lru0h3kEaaoIBcqIHy0QMVRCWAIJzkMe MGxm7bqppg8sUCmCuj+cSm8bu3ir1aBS8/drnk9Y= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48s8VN5TP2z6G81v; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 05:57:00 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, IAB References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <326aa371-82ad-da59-d873-f4e08cd6c3bb@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 08:57:01 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:57:03 -0000 My take is that we can not focus as much as I would like. We need to deal with the questions of the authority, responsibility, and role of the person we call the RFC Editor. Differences in understanding of those aspects seem to have made a significant contribution to getting us into this mess. To the degree possible, I would prefer that we not get into "what we want the RFC Series to be". We probably do at least need to discuss the relationship of the RFC Editor to that discussion. My preference is that we define the job such that it is clearly the RFC Editor's job to lead that discussion / process. Yours, Joel On 3/31/2020 2:43 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi again, > > With apologies to Mark, he pointed out to me that I misinterpreted his > message.  Taking another swing. > >> On 30 Mar 2020, at 23:03, Mark Nottingham > > wrote: >> >>> On 31 Mar 2020, at 7:37 am, Brian E Carpenter >>> > wrote: >>> >>> what are the basic principles >>> of the RFC series and its Editor's role? I'm not sure that has really >>> ever been >>> properly written down as a separate "mission statement" or whatever. >> >> >> One thing that occurred to me recently is that, while this program is >> defined with the following scope: >> >>> Discussion of changes to how the RFC Editor function is managed, >>> staffed, and overseen are all within scope. >> >> It isn't said whether discussion of the RFC Series itself (and >> potential changes to it) are in scope. Defining the principles of the >> series seems like it's more the latter than the former. >> >> Could we (Eliot?) come to some determination about whether the latter >> is in scope or not for this program? I suspect having that well >> understood -- either way it goes -- will help considerably. > > To state the question in a slightly different way: > > * Should the program worry about the structure of the series or should > the program worry about putting in place someone who could lead the > community in worrying about the structure of the series (among other > things)? > > > A related question: > > * Should we establish a process that addresses series evolution over > time or should we leave that for later? > > > I think these sorts of questions are good to sort out in advance so that > we know best how to direct our energies. > > Eliot > >> >> Cheers, >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > From nobody Tue Mar 31 13:10:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1713A02BD; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:10:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jO5OG6sIHTiW; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 983BB3A060D; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id k191so10861349pgc.13; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:10:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XLa54h+UB6X7BxfPXvceW85cDKQPaAL4te2mbzaHJDY=; b=QmThyFXSSXUUKb8MAAv/4Na4z0LWIgj8s8nJaS4LY+qJKUj5KVilXG7cQNcJLcOWrA SEvcsS4KFBOfQkSwota4hpXoezkaL7HSqSQB/M3d6N9F/UnQlnkwVCW06i9kswQpqbnd m5NJz5Lx3ZSlZonJHJfs3CsARCpfbdl7V9Q5zpa3DE0zWGwbIUIoCCQOrksHSzsBBxCB 7I8aOLemgF/1VVhg/Gx89u9+hfQIGPpHYYBeP5zyHwU5lLEihRzdDX1QBr1cf2V47TXP JBR9CfWpfKqba7Q8j/+Kq/Bxg8TaOoq/PnpB9X9MYPMvm26ut2zM56XOgHYYwe29PtyG klYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=XLa54h+UB6X7BxfPXvceW85cDKQPaAL4te2mbzaHJDY=; b=BYRyTMCjOgNC8acLfTFeZkuhblzEGGpHbdmOmDaNbn/JVBO9G8HE0ftk3J9R50ugQt kx0LBl1kzRew51apRS0lwaz8gi4zd6P8c9DMK/fHkDN6mIy42tDOv6cDeI/b4+w4sB4F NakWe8aLD/rGHck6MfdDY0nRJD1Tu8gpqNDAMCnX1fA45KgvnJNFkrQlQu0OWvh+KsVy 7NYCKNkwXZVKDwHDM0iv63VQEtxhCTM3RjxB5e/Dbj3bkJgi35qTNHY+zET6slswS273 tlB+qdWufIoMUExdEPIwjuvLLlE5yj4M3XlKWf3bm6H51UqJ9fAg9EizscFuWpmwSD3U nGnA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYQdAaz70GJoAOwyo0T+j1+6NPlaNrEp7k71CUkmbwnsyEfSHfF oYVDhrMRGpkw+PXMjivD0PYLrdY1 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJIR5FxHytT2cihs7zvbkC3ZSWsDChtSWs2aoE8yeXDse2Iox32tBw5LeL4jpaZV4Iy7l7VJQ== X-Received: by 2002:a62:2b06:: with SMTP id r6mr8498313pfr.249.1585685400357; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l18sm8832671pgc.26.2020.03.31.13.09.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:09:59 -0700 (PDT) To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, IAB References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> <326aa371-82ad-da59-d873-f4e08cd6c3bb@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0934cdca-7ff4-f43e-2e5f-66ed2939232f@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:09:55 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <326aa371-82ad-da59-d873-f4e08cd6c3bb@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 20:10:12 -0000 Joel, > My preference is=20 > that we define the job such that it is clearly the RFC Editor's job to = > lead that discussion / process. I very strongly agree with that, but to my mind that requires that we agr= ee on the principle that the RFC Editor is autonomous and the series is not controlled by the IETF or, except at a very abstract level, by the IAB. Regards Brian Carpenter On 01-Apr-20 01:57, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > My take is that we can not focus as much as I would like. >=20 > We need to deal with the questions of the authority, responsibility, an= d=20 > role of the person we call the RFC Editor. Differences in understandin= g=20 > of those aspects seem to have made a significant contribution to gettin= g=20 > us into this mess. >=20 > To the degree possible, I would prefer that we not get into "what we=20 > want the RFC Series to be". We probably do at least need to discuss th= e=20 > relationship of the RFC Editor to that discussion. My preference is=20 > that we define the job such that it is clearly the RFC Editor's job to = > lead that discussion / process. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 3/31/2020 2:43 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Hi again, >> >> With apologies to Mark, he pointed out to me that I misinterpreted his= =20 >> message. =C2=A0Taking another swing. >> >>> On 30 Mar 2020, at 23:03, Mark Nottingham >> > wrote: >>> >>>> On 31 Mar 2020, at 7:37 am, Brian E Carpenter=20 >>>> > w= rote: >>>> >>>> what are the basic principles >>>> of the RFC series and its Editor's role? I'm not sure that has reall= y=20 >>>> ever been >>>> properly written down as a separate "mission statement" or whatever.= >>> >>> >>> One thing that occurred to me recently is that, while this program is= =20 >>> defined with the following scope: >>> >>>> Discussion of changes to how the RFC Editor function is managed,=20 >>>> staffed, and overseen are all within scope. >>> >>> It isn't said whether discussion of the RFC Series itself (and=20 >>> potential changes to it) are in scope. Defining the principles of the= =20 >>> series seems like it's more the latter than the former. >>> >>> Could we (Eliot?) come to some determination about whether the latter= =20 >>> is in scope or not for this program? I suspect having that well=20 >>> understood -- either way it goes -- will help considerably. >> >> To state the question in a slightly different way: >> >> * Should the program worry about the structure of the series or shou= ld >> the program worry about putting in place someone who could lead th= e >> community in worrying about the structure of the series (among oth= er >> things)?=20 >> >> >> A related question: >> >> * Should we establish a process that addresses series evolution over= >> time or should we leave that for later? >> >> >> I think these sorts of questions are good to sort out in advance so th= at=20 >> we know best how to direct our energies. >> >> Eliot >> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>> >>> --=20 >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> >> >=20 From nobody Tue Mar 31 14:02:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D133A08B2 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:02:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v-tkdYsKqurT for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1C7B3A08AC for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7F2EBE20; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:02:40 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X7FMvWDgzeV9; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:02:38 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C6288BDCF; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:02:38 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1585688558; bh=S2kYDXkbpWnwvxC0DgAtjZIyZWNqG6SC9I1xv5slFNQ=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=coiwvsaILysHnK/nu2UrNUrsm55z9h4SpBIUAnrRNXKUYhNiI53HSRNZuPR8x/lOJ 4bXrOArTb5XECJl4Xdxjk41Sl1Nrcm+hmNa3H069QG9vZ5FLQZaLWiJGRlQVLycR2z XQqKGFWXTzTBMTWWKdwATyqN+hJ00+Xkt2quO0h0= To: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:02:38 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="o240hW7cwstHnIhtc9CA2KSdwFNJ2bA65" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:02:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --o240hW7cwstHnIhtc9CA2KSdwFNJ2bA65 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="mcFxwnEEWRZ4TsczPG3idHSJVMAISKjjV"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> --mcFxwnEEWRZ4TsczPG3idHSJVMAISKjjV Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------499F889E222FB180007DE246" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------499F889E222FB180007DE246 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eliot, I'm sure this'll not get forgotten but just to get it on the table... In earlier discussions there seemed to be relatively broad agreement that the idea that the RSE should be responsible for the day-to-day performance of the RPC was outdated, esp. now that we have the LLC. So I think revising that part of the RSE role description is something that should be part of this. Cheers, S. On 30/03/2020 07:51, Eliot Lear wrote: > [Bcc: rfc-interest just this once: if you want to join the program mail= ing list, you can click here .] >=20 > Greetings and welcome to the new RFC Editor Future Development Program.= >=20 > Last year, the RFC Editor held a number of sessions to discuss how the = RFC editor program might evolve. This program was chartered to foster dis= cussion and consensus on possible changes. Such changes could include the= role of the RFC editor, the role of others, the structure means by which= the RFC editor and those others are overseen, and any necessary accounta= bility mechanisms, just to name a few aspects. A number of others were d= iscussed last year, and I=E2=80=99m sure those will come up again. >=20 > What if anything changes is entirely up to the community, as this is be= ing run under an IAB open program, and it will be IETF community members = who put forward both problem statements and proposed solutions. >=20 > Your chair has no particular agenda with regard to what the outcome of = this work should be. On the other hand, with people having passionate vi= ews on this subject, my only agenda is to try to make the experience posi= tive for everyone. Please help me in that endeavor, and in doing so we w= ill reach for the broadest consensus. >=20 > Regarding working methods, our program charter says that we will operat= e similar to an IETF working group. Those procedures are spelled out in = RFC 2418 Section 3, and I propose to stay congruent with them so that the= re are no surprises. =20 >=20 > With this having been said, I propose to proceed as follows: >=20 > Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for short problem statements that p= eople think we need to address. We should be clear on what we see as prob= lems and their scope. > See if we can get agreement on those. > Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for proposals on how to solve those= problems. > See if we can get agreement on those. > For (1) and (3) we can provide some structure to facilitate comparison = and discussion, if that is the wish of the group. This in itself is a di= scussion point I invite you to address. >=20 > The pace of this work will depend very much on how fast we come to cons= ensus on both the problems and the solutions. The timing of meetings wil= l be driven by the group. We can address that in more detail in due cour= se. >=20 > Do people find this agreeable? Otherwise, please feel free to propose = alternatives that the group can consider. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 >=20 --------------499F889E222FB180007DE246 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bLFZaxwslyRO; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 937283A044D; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20CCC6601BF; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 00:11:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8njukmbGlZFG; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 00:11:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C18C6600AE; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 00:11:42 +0300 (EEST) From: Jari Arkko Message-Id: <6C53846B-21A4-41E2-AA5F-4E9EA2FB27BB@piuha.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E4DF4654-6FF7-4ACD-BE99-0175C1BB1F0B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 00:11:41 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, IAB To: Eliot Lear References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:11:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E4DF4654-6FF7-4ACD-BE99-0175C1BB1F0B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Should the program worry about the structure of the series or should = the program worry about putting in place someone who could lead the = community in worrying about the structure of the series (among other = things)? =20 Definitely the latter. (No hats were involved in providing this personal opinion.) Jari --Apple-Mail=_E4DF4654-6FF7-4ACD-BE99-0175C1BB1F0B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

  • Should the program worry about the structure of the series or should the program worry about putting in place someone who could lead the community in worrying about the structure of the series (among other things)?  

Definitely the latter.

(No hats were involved in providing this personal opinion.)

Jari

--Apple-Mail=_E4DF4654-6FF7-4ACD-BE99-0175C1BB1F0B-- From nobody Tue Mar 31 14:16:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 921FD3A065A for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:16:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.006 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.006 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CRBmUl56t1oO for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9E3F3A0658 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 02VLG0LD013090; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:16:00 +0100 Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A4422044; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:16:00 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 546E422042; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:16:00 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (81-174-206-152.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net [81.174.206.152] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 02VLFxqf009685 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:15:59 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Stephen Farrell'" , "'Eliot Lear'" , References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:15:59 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <0e4d01d607a1$93d95030$bb8bf090$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQE1+R8uCRV9Abm7PvYymWtFQE+BqAGI0LbWqZcIOgA= X-Originating-IP: 81.174.206.152 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.0.1013-25326.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--18.840-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--18.840-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.1013-25326.003 X-TMASE-Result: 10--18.839600-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: IeZYkn8zfFrxIbpQ8BhdbCqRJ4M9q7OvtD/Lx+LfvEvlfy382QpXGUAP pW2YDRvl0hRL4tJV+I0YbwMqNgMVX6AEvAzFOAcU6qrX9V+kFlPdhjoOKqXGsXt8F07wTFIu3zg TIja8TE2XldHH1yrZsHmEK5oQ79/8fHwQNCpO2gPZulfZck3CoVIMQUD0GLzwtXl9IxEPXOrzC8 G7KpK/rO1CGOxU0BKtSoQVCcsY4Qb6+7mjV+YfuRW/bMMiDpHhVsuPqg+sAtn+9LofIdYpC6zz7 j3QUvuE6oysViSYlfieN8x/noHl4uwUT27MY+x09m9PbNihg7AL8TGleseLPGCdKCrSMhgbbXrh tUaCAuLdTAmCcpzVLsuT6pyURQPhpGFLd7gDP1KcxB01DrjF96LvOfbEnCGKCZnV8zoRDHbk16J BEHxOhbc6DUTR1iHLzwPLHfDaH0gUt1x8+NzXjrGWmeVAULKHIgt1z4icQStPvOpmjDN2kkRk71 K5FbsjOcz7Ia0u9zsvN44+KhGyryv7yskpezLv7fYHKZgXQJFRvgR0hkbG4Jgs1f7VFvxMGNUwe YPojhyh21MSuCMZHRRAJeit9+QCUdoGyGz2JKmI8hHRrWLqF4yogPxG+gN29J5avMd3ezBG2ezR S0HqbPPHZfYFJ0glzF273/DE1XCOkKYrsG6nI5RUn//0eq2K52mltlE2n8ikxCDoBXI6g5FLsWx Agsv7i1eKlHsJe7s2iUDyx9WQIqEiiWmjr2gp2XSL5bIj73VU7/MX5ixt9BBEGklbuMi46ctk8P rVT6u+ER2GiN9AY5qArWZx2NEHGFmgT31DRseeAiCmPx4NwFkMvWAuahr8m5N2YHMD0b8MyrfP9 j+C1d934/rDAK3zhG2qikEpQGWNIS/dD9scVYfB6ueizJPngB8Z5Yc08eLQI6ZWI3/ZinS8uikR 1Vq+ X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-12:0,22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:16:08 -0000 Stephen,=20 I see a problem with you "calling consensus" on those earlier = discussions post facto, as it were. It may be a fine thing to do to revisit the discussion, but assuming = that that decision has already been made is troublesome. FWIW, I disagree quite strongly with the idea that someone who has = editorial and production experience should not be involved in the = day-to-day management of the people who are responsible for substantial = work conforming to the leadership that that person gives.=20 Best, Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Stephen = Farrell Sent: 31 March 2020 22:03 To: Eliot Lear ; rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development = Program Hi Eliot, I'm sure this'll not get forgotten but just to get it on the table... In earlier discussions there seemed to be relatively broad agreement that the idea that the RSE should be responsible for the day-to-day performance of the RPC was outdated, esp. now that we have the LLC. So I think revising that part of the RSE role description is something that should be part of this. Cheers, S. On 30/03/2020 07:51, Eliot Lear wrote: > [Bcc: rfc-interest just this once: if you want to join the program = mailing list, you can click here = .] >=20 > Greetings and welcome to the new RFC Editor Future Development = Program. >=20 > Last year, the RFC Editor held a number of sessions to discuss how the = RFC editor program might evolve. This program was chartered to foster = discussion and consensus on possible changes. Such changes could include = the role of the RFC editor, the role of others, the structure means by = which the RFC editor and those others are overseen, and any necessary = accountability mechanisms, just to name a few aspects. A number of = others were discussed last year, and I=E2=80=99m sure those will come up = again. >=20 > What if anything changes is entirely up to the community, as this is = being run under an IAB open program, and it will be IETF community = members who put forward both problem statements and proposed solutions. >=20 > Your chair has no particular agenda with regard to what the outcome of = this work should be. On the other hand, with people having passionate = views on this subject, my only agenda is to try to make the experience = positive for everyone. Please help me in that endeavor, and in doing so = we will reach for the broadest consensus. >=20 > Regarding working methods, our program charter says that we will = operate similar to an IETF working group. Those procedures are spelled = out in RFC 2418 Section 3, and I propose to stay congruent with them so = that there are no surprises. =20 >=20 > With this having been said, I propose to proceed as follows: >=20 > Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for short problem statements that = people think we need to address. We should be clear on what we see as = problems and their scope. > See if we can get agreement on those. > Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for proposals on how to solve = those problems. > See if we can get agreement on those. > For (1) and (3) we can provide some structure to facilitate comparison = and discussion, if that is the wish of the group. This in itself is a = discussion point I invite you to address. >=20 > The pace of this work will depend very much on how fast we come to = consensus on both the problems and the solutions. The timing of = meetings will be driven by the group. We can address that in more = detail in due course. >=20 > Do people find this agreeable? Otherwise, please feel free to propose = alternatives that the group can consider. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Mar 31 14:22:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE4C3A07A3 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:22:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5oTtDuCVo_jn for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 358ED3A07A0 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77538BE20; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:22:09 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8yDrLDlcJE4x; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:22:05 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C344BDCF; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:22:05 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1585689725; bh=3Ma18Obm6/EO3iUtZczOMH6Uc4MFsr2cJPv/Gc1Qaog=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=UfAUrFs32El3nKAfEHt/PkkGojH2ztkemYc07ViXwka35wGexBqCzOBfdRsH6Q/oa Q6cdyPVHY6ed+17qyalvxfTiJ8pBqfdAbhTywDlmbm1ZY5TntT2hzq/RhnoTnRg7Dy xprHiEZR7Kxmf/tvn142YR1xgRuMGWX5RIBfxomI= To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, 'Eliot Lear' , rfced-future@iab.org References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0e4d01d607a1$93d95030$bb8bf090$@olddog.co.uk> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0e4d01d607a1$93d95030$bb8bf090$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="U7Ja0ZHrqvLpGTCi2eQCh7eOzAWuJ8z1E" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:22:16 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --U7Ja0ZHrqvLpGTCi2eQCh7eOzAWuJ8z1E Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="THoElh2bLkRJicmCLzHhuk9vHv8L25Fhl"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, 'Eliot Lear' , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <6e64b538-ad4b-5b54-3c1d-acc4b987a19c@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0e4d01d607a1$93d95030$bb8bf090$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <0e4d01d607a1$93d95030$bb8bf090$@olddog.co.uk> --THoElh2bLkRJicmCLzHhuk9vHv8L25Fhl Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------AAC19E0DF2B813D1F701D227" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AAC19E0DF2B813D1F701D227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 31/03/2020 22:15, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Stephen, I see a problem with you "calling consensus" on those > earlier discussions post facto, as it were.=20 Sorry, that wasn't my intent. I had thought it might be a non-controversial part of all this but that just goes to show how little I know;-) > It may be a fine thing to > do to revisit the discussion, but assuming that that decision has > already been made is troublesome. Nothing I said indicated any decision had been made. I guess you're reading too much between the lines maybe? > FWIW, I disagree quite strongly with the idea that someone who has > editorial and production experience should not be involved in the > day-to-day management of the people who are responsible for > substantial work conforming to the leadership that that person gives. I fully agree the RSE needs to be involved. But I think the language in the current RFC makes the RSE accountable for the day-to-day performance of RPC staff. (I'd need to go check.) So I do think that is something to revise and please note that I only said revise, I didn't say how one might revise, and nor did I say how I would want things revised! Cheers, S. >=20 >=20 > Best, Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Rfced-future > On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell Sent: 31 > March 2020 22:03 To: Eliot Lear ; > rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC > Editor Future Development Program >=20 >=20 > Hi Eliot, >=20 > I'm sure this'll not get forgotten but just to get it on the > table... >=20 > In earlier discussions there seemed to be relatively broad agreement > that the idea that the RSE should be responsible for the day-to-day > performance of the RPC was outdated, esp. now that we have the LLC. >=20 > So I think revising that part of the RSE role description is > something that should be part of this. >=20 > Cheers, S. >=20 > On 30/03/2020 07:51, Eliot Lear wrote: >> [Bcc: rfc-interest just this once: if you want to join the program >> mailing list, you can click here >> .] >>=20 >> Greetings and welcome to the new RFC Editor Future Development >> Program. >>=20 >> Last year, the RFC Editor held a number of sessions to discuss how >> the RFC editor program might evolve. This program was chartered to >> foster discussion and consensus on possible changes. Such changes >> could include the role of the RFC editor, the role of others, the >> structure means by which the RFC editor and those others are >> overseen, and any necessary accountability mechanisms, just to name >> a few aspects. A number of others were discussed last year, and >> I=E2=80=99m sure those will come up again. >>=20 >> What if anything changes is entirely up to the community, as this >> is being run under an IAB open program, and it will be IETF >> community members who put forward both problem statements and >> proposed solutions. >>=20 >> Your chair has no particular agenda with regard to what the outcome >> of this work should be. On the other hand, with people having >> passionate views on this subject, my only agenda is to try to make >> the experience positive for everyone. Please help me in that >> endeavor, and in doing so we will reach for the broadest >> consensus. >>=20 >> Regarding working methods, our program charter says that we will >> operate similar to an IETF working group. Those procedures are >> spelled out in RFC 2418 Section 3, and I propose to stay congruent >> with them so that there are no surprises. >>=20 >> With this having been said, I propose to proceed as follows: >>=20 >> Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for short problem statements that = people think >> we need to address. We should be clear on what we see as problems >> and their scope. See if we can get agreement on those. Open up =E2=80=9C= the >> floor=E2=80=9D for proposals on how to solve those problems. See if we= can >> get agreement on those. For (1) and (3) we can provide some >> structure to facilitate comparison and discussion, if that is the >> wish of the group. This in itself is a discussion point I invite >> you to address. >>=20 >> The pace of this work will depend very much on how fast we come to >> consensus on both the problems and the solutions. The timing of >> meetings will be driven by the group. We can address that in more >> detail in due course. >>=20 >> Do people find this agreeable? Otherwise, please feel free to >> propose alternatives that the group can consider. >>=20 >> Eliot >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --------------AAC19E0DF2B813D1F701D227 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ru_tUlqk5HY2 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta5.iomartmail.com (mta5.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D5ED3A08F5 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs1.iomartmail.com (vs1.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.121]) by mta5.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 02VLTD3Q029150; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:29:13 +0100 Received: from vs1.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4B72203B; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:29:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs1.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9751F2203A; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:29:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (81-174-206-152.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net [81.174.206.152] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 02VLTCuB030815 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:29:12 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Stephen Farrell'" , "'Eliot Lear'" , References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0e4d01d607a1$93d95030$bb8bf090$@olddog.co.uk> <6e64b538-ad4b-5b54-3c1d-acc4b987a19c@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <6e64b538-ad4b-5b54-3c1d-acc4b987a19c@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:29:12 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <0e5801d607a3$6c84bb30$458e3190$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQE1+R8uCRV9Abm7PvYymWtFQE+BqAGI0LbWAd/gHrMCrqEwv6lymTqQ X-Originating-IP: 81.174.206.152 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.0.1013-25326.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--24.871-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--24.871-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.1013-25326.003 X-TMASE-Result: 10--24.870900-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: IeZYkn8zfFrxIbpQ8BhdbPVY7U3NX8JgpvDLLlsAH/0fDTiy/l/JKV8g kdmvvg/2L/qYgc9m5+P21ZTKBNQQO237z/25P5od9m9PbNihg7AL8TGleseLPH9nRLJB1yYQnyx gj7PVNzoeGZguMEuTyFLyRswcCV1JOQIin5EspQaBVj0DhF8PTgILzOoe9wbaOF0RIPSotdMT5O E0Sj2y4aa+zcSQem1Aa57FGJiDWLxdTHExsvPfnpCYtcHXhxbaf6iC0fNopZkurUcwuzZNE5IH3 UK+7vM/nrvMfSSMM+ojkSBBXO80zzrbb61Qqr4lCLNfGU4dffiCjlNkELBqNLobGHR5ejtrIycc KU/UgpsWsLL/8WJrNTF7BC4yGqFZAxYKB0LOn5q8coKUcaOOvalHaQwZyzDt3oD51KVDoVtlTEa s7VhA3e1CGOxU0BKtSoQVCcsY4Qb6+7mjV+YfuRW/bMMiDpHhVsuPqg+sAtn+9LofIdYpC6zz7j 3QUvuEZEweJO8a2MUnLlOhkhy6Ec7MSRQ9Hxg6nVTWWiNp+v8FcnqPYTPUhxRGQfPV64jhQTf6i dMd+ws6NU1+zwxTwvekW5IOib8wt2Ln7lGU7t3svUCLoWsu670ETfjOvlQDnG0dBE+DEE38716R 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I'll accept "misinterpretation of unfortunate juxtaposition of words" A -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell =20 Sent: 31 March 2020 22:22 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Eliot Lear' = ; rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development = Program Hiya, On 31/03/2020 22:15, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Stephen, I see a problem with you "calling consensus" on those > earlier discussions post facto, as it were.=20 Sorry, that wasn't my intent. I had thought it might be a non-controversial part of all this but that just goes to show how little I know;-) > It may be a fine thing to > do to revisit the discussion, but assuming that that decision has > already been made is troublesome. Nothing I said indicated any decision had been made. I guess you're reading too much between the lines maybe? > FWIW, I disagree quite strongly with the idea that someone who has > editorial and production experience should not be involved in the > day-to-day management of the people who are responsible for > substantial work conforming to the leadership that that person gives. I fully agree the RSE needs to be involved. But I think the language in the current RFC makes the RSE accountable for the day-to-day performance of RPC staff. (I'd need to go check.) So I do think that is something to revise and please note that I only said revise, I didn't say how one might revise, and nor did I say how I would want things revised! Cheers, S. >=20 >=20 > Best, Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Rfced-future > On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell Sent: 31 > March 2020 22:03 To: Eliot Lear ; > rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC > Editor Future Development Program >=20 >=20 > Hi Eliot, >=20 > I'm sure this'll not get forgotten but just to get it on the > table... >=20 > In earlier discussions there seemed to be relatively broad agreement > that the idea that the RSE should be responsible for the day-to-day > performance of the RPC was outdated, esp. now that we have the LLC. >=20 > So I think revising that part of the RSE role description is > something that should be part of this. >=20 > Cheers, S. >=20 > On 30/03/2020 07:51, Eliot Lear wrote: >> [Bcc: rfc-interest just this once: if you want to join the program >> mailing list, you can click here >> .] >>=20 >> Greetings and welcome to the new RFC Editor Future Development >> Program. >>=20 >> Last year, the RFC Editor held a number of sessions to discuss how >> the RFC editor program might evolve. This program was chartered to >> foster discussion and consensus on possible changes. Such changes >> could include the role of the RFC editor, the role of others, the >> structure means by which the RFC editor and those others are >> overseen, and any necessary accountability mechanisms, just to name >> a few aspects. A number of others were discussed last year, and >> I=E2=80=99m sure those will come up again. >>=20 >> What if anything changes is entirely up to the community, as this >> is being run under an IAB open program, and it will be IETF >> community members who put forward both problem statements and >> proposed solutions. >>=20 >> Your chair has no particular agenda with regard to what the outcome >> of this work should be. On the other hand, with people having >> passionate views on this subject, my only agenda is to try to make >> the experience positive for everyone. Please help me in that >> endeavor, and in doing so we will reach for the broadest >> consensus. >>=20 >> Regarding working methods, our program charter says that we will >> operate similar to an IETF working group. Those procedures are >> spelled out in RFC 2418 Section 3, and I propose to stay congruent >> with them so that there are no surprises. >>=20 >> With this having been said, I propose to proceed as follows: >>=20 >> Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for short problem statements that = people think >> we need to address. We should be clear on what we see as problems >> and their scope. See if we can get agreement on those. Open up = =E2=80=9Cthe >> floor=E2=80=9D for proposals on how to solve those problems. See if = we can >> get agreement on those. For (1) and (3) we can provide some >> structure to facilitate comparison and discussion, if that is the >> wish of the group. This in itself is a discussion point I invite >> you to address. >>=20 >> The pace of this work will depend very much on how fast we come to >> consensus on both the problems and the solutions. The timing of >> meetings will be driven by the group. We can address that in more >> detail in due course. >>=20 >> Do people find this agreeable? Otherwise, please feel free to >> propose alternatives that the group can consider. >>=20 >> Eliot >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Mar 31 17:13:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253D93A0DF7 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 17:13:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=xPrwZthx; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=zIryP7Qm Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tu4NDX33zyp8 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 17:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 116D53A0DF2 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 17:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD3A5C01A9; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 20:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 31 Mar 2020 20:13:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :message-id:date:cc:to; s=fm2; bh=CUP1c1e0H/RLRrBoFjmd0h8Cwfi5Nv 0by8Y0QWMImhY=; b=xPrwZthxq/P+KvjySsSVqZfZLfMN+5Vt9xgibFtzKmPtC9 5Ykv9wbCGSEniqS7cJ+bpfnnbzvoj1E7AuoFmZywDxolu0/L4M4lhPAIAmQ7BXjF 3aazz+t8h2li0nHu1DdyGRyIEfrLNmLqaTWJ0HQ/642VtNYjisE8cEbasvPAXH9W 5k0M8Kyvx35fhVuT0AFXcUKxWZm/vAhn7x4IlM8Jv2l7kE7Q4ICHhCOu5ykDgJ30 ZK5BOUZIQBv7eXO34dHrJS8ZxiWtk1h1x2QV20FrpxLE5jR8JhArAZvi8iT5ziaT /C9iMrtrQ11UTSINHUANumMkwcT4LAa61GjOg0bQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=CUP1c1 e0H/RLRrBoFjmd0h8Cwfi5Nv0by8Y0QWMImhY=; b=zIryP7Qm4xnBk2OMy5iqbU J2b9dSisvcOsK5uyULZisSexJfiaHUqK+lf30UCYdUycyv2KweH1KOyh5FKg0lTY pAl6ikBOMy+WOE3Xrf/Cf9UacFlhR+23Lm9fU1dZzo7mnRl9OT5FBzgtEz3nj+b8 6LjphnGtaH9zROIXaL9rCs9YyOpyHVNd3Gj2GySdXwBPHs6Xd2BrR8XhViNlnOcP LcR6OFTP7S6wAcDf3J54L5RagCzilsL81HqNjrFUFoJhZUrINj9bVQ8wBj10AEJI ItMANaA8Ff9gkHeK7wLMBXPR0a9JlftbrWQHC/37ejYyywiTQiY1rS/lPgHHRwLg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrtddtgdduieduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephfgtgfgguffkfffvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhkucfp ohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinhepih grsgdrohhrghdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepudduledrudej rdduheekrddvhedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: from attitudadjuster.mnot.net (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DDCA03280064; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 20:12:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Message-Id: <6894F141-85BF-4F7C-8FF0-3EA91FA17DAE@mnot.net> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 11:12:57 +1100 Cc: Eliot Lear To: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Another clarification to make: RSE or RFC Editor? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 00:13:05 -0000 Our program description = says: > This program is intended to foster discussion and consensus on = potential changes to the RFC Editor model. Discussion of changes to how = the RFC Editor function is managed, staffed, and overseen are all within = scope In discussion so far, I see people using both "RFC Editor" and "RSE" in = a way that calls to question whether we're including the other functions = of the RFC Editor (the RFC Production Centre and the RFC Publisher) in = our discussion as well.=20 Can we assume that our focus is on just the RSE, or are we looking at = the entirety of the model ? Personally, I'm leaning towards just the RSE; I don't see any compelling = reason to examine the RPC or publisher (unless we want to radically = change things; e.g., the W3C doesn't have any of these roles, and still = manages to publish specs).=20 It _could_ be that we end up in a place where the RSE role changes in a = way that makes us re-examine how the other roles in the RFC Editor = function are overseen, but I don't think that's a change to their roles = themselves. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Mar 31 17:14:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 701503A0DF4; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 17:14:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=I/U61GpE; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ifElLqc9 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wsiFMY-zG6gE; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 17:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95BD43A0DF3; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 17:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98275C040F; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 20:14:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 31 Mar 2020 20:14:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=t 0M+G6XKcTXoRWl+F476FHOffq636toiyMCAGWzbja4=; b=I/U61GpED37s5ZEJR sVr4Y6PVIwofoWr126MlUcBmU35onmdBr5l74G6nL/ERc6mWoZkoWS0eNqXXbMZZ 2RKmpIKLPOpemZK5s7zCbbv8SmxqTaJK3YTVsXp05NsCSO6eqZWRX3j0F89bdXPQ nxCeIGpb+YQM6mU8pz2MoKKnp2XkKliucwHdTDAeXrJXvW3tosuXsZc+vEyKm4NZ nKK2jNXU0Lw5coEu1uCcQsvnqMjh2XfoYoAqm8RY6d0GZrUWa9hQAg5Ru+HkUtPC DXp8qCOlpYpvHb8oiGRpQ1c9RgLMe7OfFxdPQPJ+fCBqemWZr0XwotrwJdsExSl5 jG9/A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=t0M+G6XKcTXoRWl+F476FHOffq636toiyMCAGWzbj a4=; b=ifElLqc9VyGReFO/UMzBaKL2+s5aXC8aw7rFYba8h4+OeWS61tu89G5iu 5R3pa1jFYaLCLRCE2sHzLE9H6JDZHnwFKstxgGDXid4X1rHbbGUUZmuubz5+POyg pz8YGqfLMhUIAlL+jMZFbbkSwSyvhU7xOC620bW8fgiL8GkDAqp1h/ZMtZzS47xY Ge2uPrsA5W8BR08Wrs7Kqx0KdCiiGKIFmaodgR2R3sLDBGUji5FPKMb1/cee4Eup n0naa58ZcVFlKvEGBHATymRV3noRqRND5ayceqVfOlmjMUInK7iSB85jMnZlQixw 07Ffda3gW5+6BWr8lMoPqozFGBTWw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrtddtgdduiedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinh epmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeduudelrddujedrudehkedrvdehudenucevlhhushht vghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrd hnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from attitudadjuster.mnot.net (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C912C306C5E4; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 20:14:40 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <0934cdca-7ff4-f43e-2e5f-66ed2939232f@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 11:14:38 +1100 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> <326aa371-82ad-da59-d873-f4e08cd6c3bb@joelhalpern.com> <0934cdca-7ff4-f43e-2e5f-66ed2939232f@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 00:14:48 -0000 [ I'm moving iab@ to bcc:, as most IAB members are already here, and I'm = sure they'll appreciate the reduction in duplication. ] Hi Brian, > On 1 Apr 2020, at 7:09 am, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 >> My preference is=20 >> that we define the job such that it is clearly the RFC Editor's job = to=20 >> lead that discussion / process. >=20 > I very strongly agree with that, but to my mind that requires that we = agree > on the principle that the RFC Editor is autonomous and the series is = not > controlled by the IETF or, except at a very abstract level, by the = IAB. I don't see how that follows. We have plenty of people who lead = discussions and processes in this community, and yet they still have = oversight, checks and balances. There may be reasons for exempting the = RSE from them, but declaring that special status as a presumption seems = odd in a program with our scope. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Mar 31 19:08:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E264F3A0FFD for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:08:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mudQ1xWcXYCg for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52a.google.com (mail-pg1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 060263A0FFA for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id k5so9116945pga.2 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:08:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=P4/QWvmiSsrowy1jXav6GOMxoiiAUcAzjrLSgmyAoj4=; b=bxZ6I3bq8cPVB0E3/kIN3uSWzNvOM06G99uXIvm2q/pzSdPlWAVCGJkYEOYxfy7fZQ 30aV6JJf204zDf31Iokh+ZSp8Zfgd6LrNAnzKitTNfTe59xOcezO9l5/Lwqln61E01Q5 pZzK1CWjNSsSzEj1xQ5DqZIgkLtiSiB2exWisA92Mxk0CiY4JWrBWHW9SWpXUwwqX6Je IANq6HJhfnaC1ils/ugMX5x/2TwCXKhR56kL2WIllcqW/d/sktWKWhJU+JtOx7wcIIs0 zFL5UBmzNAfcv+hxGvVsoVbaIv3NxMauSO+vqjdDrxoIlh+pmRd+5/Zwzjw3Yt/qaLA5 z9oQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=P4/QWvmiSsrowy1jXav6GOMxoiiAUcAzjrLSgmyAoj4=; b=CsEqlT75vNtPsJdm6nIiwrE8DhSh9n8eyPldJs0zYKKOz2slNbuWQg3f1PPoLPQ5SQ CTiROxM1LkU1Suqss3DzWQJ+4Auw9314gWIagbVtF0IbF4PK6zaDNu/FmBKVKov5+F2L evZyfyCjNq5Snon4OoZftDFv8fPMhJF2HSl7UMjbCqbIH/nMd/0i2ZtqNTYwh0enmhYj sa7Hn1E+nXkOF7J96ykFCHGDjUZZq8b7W5zdftDCBP/07Kj7Ke3JI3k61+cltCzrwbLs xz58TD2p1bdsb5huPYK4XTeePGTEmmtxCwfVXYHG4N7GWb7VF7jC2ZSW5lp1Kq6996w+ jWmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0m71cjzil32WUOtDO757oQ2EG7rNs4JJ334vV57DFO20tz2CJt eEVYPw11JfrD8uIb6OtN93A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vuB+MpdPd2JEIAEcPYhZdU1vjXktBTgsdLWAdbu5sMxMeAxeRh91MYTuVzzeyqvvXJ095O87g== X-Received: by 2002:a62:7c82:: with SMTP id x124mr21874936pfc.280.1585706907410; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t63sm252810pgc.85.2020.03.31.19.08.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:08:26 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Nottingham , rfced-future@iab.org Cc: Eliot Lear References: <6894F141-85BF-4F7C-8FF0-3EA91FA17DAE@mnot.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <86f0547d-c447-e40a-07c3-96ef83e44d4e@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 15:08:21 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6894F141-85BF-4F7C-8FF0-3EA91FA17DAE@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Another clarification to make: RSE or RFC Editor? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 02:08:30 -0000 Mark, I think we need to talk about *relationships* between the RSE and the production/publishing functions, but not about the internals of those functions. Regards Brian On 01-Apr-20 13:12, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Our program description says: > >> This program is intended to foster discussion and consensus on potential changes to the RFC Editor model. Discussion of changes to how the RFC Editor function is managed, staffed, and overseen are all within scope > > In discussion so far, I see people using both "RFC Editor" and "RSE" in a way that calls to question whether we're including the other functions of the RFC Editor (the RFC Production Centre and the RFC Publisher) in our discussion as well. > > Can we assume that our focus is on just the RSE, or are we looking at the entirety of the model ? > > Personally, I'm leaning towards just the RSE; I don't see any compelling reason to examine the RPC or publisher (unless we want to radically change things; e.g., the W3C doesn't have any of these roles, and still manages to publish specs). > > It _could_ be that we end up in a place where the RSE role changes in a way that makes us re-examine how the other roles in the RFC Editor function are overseen, but I don't think that's a change to their roles themselves. > > Cheers, > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Tue Mar 31 19:16:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DAFA3A1016 for ; 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Tue, 31 Mar 2020 22:16:08 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <86f0547d-c447-e40a-07c3-96ef83e44d4e@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 13:16:04 +1100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <68AFDD6D-65A2-44C6-B486-362C6D7B1A03@mnot.net> References: <6894F141-85BF-4F7C-8FF0-3EA91FA17DAE@mnot.net> <86f0547d-c447-e40a-07c3-96ef83e44d4e@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Another clarification to make: RSE or RFC Editor? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 02:16:14 -0000 Makes sense to me. > On 1 Apr 2020, at 1:08 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Mark, >=20 > I think we need to talk about *relationships* between the RSE and the = production/publishing functions, but not about the internals of those = functions. >=20 > Regards > Brian >=20 > On 01-Apr-20 13:12, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> Our program description = says: >>=20 >>> This program is intended to foster discussion and consensus on = potential changes to the RFC Editor model. Discussion of changes to how = the RFC Editor function is managed, staffed, and overseen are all within = scope >>=20 >> In discussion so far, I see people using both "RFC Editor" and "RSE" = in a way that calls to question whether we're including the other = functions of the RFC Editor (the RFC Production Centre and the RFC = Publisher) in our discussion as well.=20 >>=20 >> Can we assume that our focus is on just the RSE, or are we looking at = the entirety of the model ? >>=20 >> Personally, I'm leaning towards just the RSE; I don't see any = compelling reason to examine the RPC or publisher (unless we want to = radically change things; e.g., the W3C doesn't have any of these roles, = and still manages to publish specs).=20 >>=20 >> It _could_ be that we end up in a place where the RSE role changes in = a way that makes us re-examine how the other roles in the RFC Editor = function are overseen, but I don't think that's a change to their roles = themselves. >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Mar 31 19:17:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BD23A1064 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:17:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9SQj1mQc6Iwp for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52e.google.com (mail-pg1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93B2F3A1028 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id g32so5295481pgb.6 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:17:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=I8Py/8s/7AhmNiNQgE2G6r40XenRaFT59/7hf7X6w5w=; b=gNEccdHVoNlWAVF4k+CbEYIBMPgeF8nRlPOQP5TLa0GF23XjQEdZr3h8mC+qGRAJ0d vKgNUktChta1SN9PvdN6tpIfUUC9CD5vf8gHzsyiOyj5y6Xkb99hZ4DwrPAcRfkIkzlR nzpSj/bAciW0FhYQNrfPyk37qwW1dnvl0JIMB/cPEryoGiIRNVEhGModFVq3jQJaJUSt G1v1kbrCTjqchcLJe+axhwDP9YOkIZpvZ/OFnO4vKDDLTjzpB516lCdg4Hsm9RV8ea4c kcQ2ObjQDu01eyjYNuIQcnKkXGrywrjJ3s48PFR37hAg+LnFaUp1Oj9wJ55HI6vvZ31z J1kA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=I8Py/8s/7AhmNiNQgE2G6r40XenRaFT59/7hf7X6w5w=; b=ZEdxg6UnCdPQCIKYxQKZWHI9gqkQHlujGqQdN3tk+v/bzTxwsVQ18bufRYigLgyA74 t5YX5HxpzkxBtKpS61BLojeJyfhJITb9xsA9gcpsWHRRDfr6duMVblqoWA6hfWvTs/AH h3eekipDPub8qnAroNoH2nKtXJhZXv6G6+viH180rQVpZCsNp1hPM3Z602xg2W6TMpLm Le3eft6sUFmbBK2PM79A56p+0RdV/JUK4U3iWyZbYsFQtJPTaZFx7Rt/FGUcWT/5H9zm iLGqfwx+hi5a/lgw0t1wyKjlC3Fe7TQCM6R5Ekj7nVtqxWPxTnIkD7PyhxOxeOxlDQJq IoBw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ03WfkpW1U0vP1Iwv3bs8FSSSGKEVe25JTt0D13wjmZanUb/yxB B3UOjsEfhTiLTb4dlt4o069RtYwz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vtrZvNgQWMcttALq2YOcThFmz+VChNsq9xjVDk5v1IvBMSGp3kmOKHOX3r9WtH2W2qlPdGwLw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:7f18:: with SMTP id a24mr20434749pgd.178.1585707468631; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v4sm368513pfb.31.2020.03.31.19.17.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:17:48 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org References: <97B63B78-0D49-4007-B8A2-101FB7849C0F@cisco.com> <0E6D83F8D11D8C1B9B7237B7@PSB> <73C27FFD-BD81-4CF3-9D9D-845DE9544A36@cisco.com> <097a60d7-2229-b849-1ca3-1f6d298cceed@nthpermutation.com> <16726C73-09AB-4F61-8C00-8224E3EF6F1B@mnot.net> <326aa371-82ad-da59-d873-f4e08cd6c3bb@joelhalpern.com> <0934cdca-7ff4-f43e-2e5f-66ed2939232f@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 15:17:43 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 02:17:58 -0000 On 01-Apr-20 13:14, Mark Nottingham wrote: > [ I'm moving iab@ to bcc:, as most IAB members are already here, and I'm sure they'll appreciate the reduction in duplication. ] > > Hi Brian, > >> On 1 Apr 2020, at 7:09 am, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >>> My preference is >>> that we define the job such that it is clearly the RFC Editor's job to >>> lead that discussion / process. >> >> I very strongly agree with that, but to my mind that requires that we agree >> on the principle that the RFC Editor is autonomous and the series is not >> controlled by the IETF or, except at a very abstract level, by the IAB. > > I don't see how that follows. We have plenty of people who lead discussions and processes in this community, and yet they still have oversight, checks and balances. There may be reasons for exempting the RSE from them, but declaring that special status as a presumption seems odd in a program with our scope. I won't repeat what I said in https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-request-for-comments-01.txt, but I will assume you've read it. Of course, being autonomous shouldn't mean exemption from checks and balances. However, in the case of the RSE (and unlike most of our activities), it really isn't clear which community should implement those checks and balances. And the evidence from the IAOC and the RSOC is that we aren't very good at designing oversight functions. I think that's our biggest challenge. Brian From nobody Tue Mar 31 23:34:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB183A0D82 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 23:34:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V5ZbCiQgxSje for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 23:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DDDB3A0D7D for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 23:34:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7838; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1585722852; x=1586932452; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=B9iHEEL+wu9SGd/w7Pz3NJ/eiuZmdUt3q6v/Xgvks6A=; b=UK768i6KvSlTMm+33lAl+TCnZEm6KGaXw6RzSAZ9OccQ6Lsb+CiVOL8S fzoC+SYZqA29xw9BiFVdqpQhEdxdllT/CQByWmY9L7AismvOwni5MQ/pw kVy5ao9kF8xq+T8rceYKrMeOMcCHuLYiqtB85zifMtBgOC0E/gJ5AXDt3 M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BPBABQNYRe/xbLJq1mHgELHIFwC4F?= =?us-ascii?q?4BYEYVAEgEiqEGokCm0+GD4F7CgEBAQwBASUKBAEBhyA1CA4CAwEBCwEBBQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQIBBQRthVYMhhqBMwKBBgeDCwGCfA+eco4RdYEyhUuEdQaBOIxLggCBOCC?= =?us-ascii?q?FcgKEdzKCLASOMaI8gkcEglKFC482FgeCTIgxhDKMP5gzjzmDNAIEBgUCFYF?= =?us-ascii?q?UAzSBWDMaCBsVOyoBgkE+EhgNj0QBDoI9ilc/AzCPDQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.72,330,1580774400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="24886877" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 01 Apr 2020 06:34:10 +0000 Received: from [10.61.233.22] ([10.61.233.22]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 0316Y7MO020414 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 06:34:08 GMT From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FD9F2B3E-4A43-4D3B-BFB8-6A6436461AD1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 08:34:07 +0200 To: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.233.22, [10.61.233.22] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the romp! A reminder of what I would like us to decide first... X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 06:34:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FD9F2B3E-4A43-4D3B-BFB8-6A6436461AD1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 =E2=80=A6 though not necessarily fast. Now that we seem to be getting things under way, I would like to thank = those who have chimed in on both program scope and work program. For = those that haven=E2=80=99t, here is a convenient list of questions you = may wish to answer (or not). It is entirely fair for you to ask your own as well, but I would like us = to discuss both scope and work plan so that we can focus our energies. = A big thank you to mnot, Joel, Jari, and Brian for focusing on the = former in particular. Thanks also to Andy and Larry for commenting on = the latter, and to John K. for hitting on both a bit. For scope: Should the program worry about the structure of the series or should the = program worry about putting in place someone who could lead the = community in worrying about the structure of the series (among other = things)? =20 A related question: Should we establish a process that addresses series evolution over time = or should we leave that for later? For work plan, here is the proposal: Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for short problem statements that = people think we need to address. We should be clear on what we see as = problems and their scope. See if we can get agreement on those. Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80=9D for proposals on how to solve those = problems. See if we can get agreement on those. For (1) and (3) we can provide some structure to facilitate comparison = and discussion, if that is the wish of the group. This in itself is a = discussion point I invite you to address. Let me add a bit of = justification for this approach. It is based precisely on what Andy = Mallis alluded to: if it ain=E2=80=99t broke don=E2=80=99t fix it, and I = am sure that we all agree that not everything is broken. Without = understanding what we want to fix, we run a very high risk of not = finding consensus for solutions. I am aware that there are other things going on this week. I think = it=E2=80=99s been a while since I=E2=80=99ve seen a thread as long as = the NOMCOM thread, for instance. I will ask that we discuss these = questions now, with an eye toward coming to consensus next week. Again, = perfectly fine to offer an alternative for a workplan. But please if = you are going to do so, do so soon. With regard to Larry=E2=80=99s request for how things work today, I = would like to highlight Olaf Kolkman=E2=80=99s excellent presentation at = the IETF Administrative Plenary in Montreal, as well as the reading list = that you may conveniently find here = . Eliot= --Apple-Mail=_FD9F2B3E-4A43-4D3B-BFB8-6A6436461AD1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 =E2=80= =A6 though not necessarily fast.

Now that we seem to be getting things under way, I would like = to thank those who have chimed in on both program scope and work = program.  For those that haven=E2=80=99t, here is a convenient list = of questions you may wish to answer (or not).

It is entirely fair for you to ask your own as well, but I = would like us to discuss both scope and work plan so that we can focus = our energies.  A big thank you to mnot, Joel, Jari, and Brian for = focusing on the former in particular.  Thanks also to Andy and = Larry for commenting on the latter, and to John K. for hitting on both a = bit.

For = scope:


  • Should the program worry about the structure of the series or = should the program worry about putting in place someone who could lead = the community in worrying about the structure of the series (among other = things)?  

A related question:

  • Should we establish a process that addresses series evolution = over time or should we leave that for later?

For work plan, here is = the proposal:
  1. Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80= =9D for short problem statements that people think we need to address. = We should be clear on what we see as problems and their scope.
  2. See if we can get agreement = on those.
  3. Open up =E2=80=9Cthe floor=E2=80= =9D for proposals on how to solve those problems.
  4. See if = we can get agreement on those.

For (1) and (3) we can provide some structure = to facilitate comparison and discussion, if that is the wish of the = group.  This in itself is a discussion point I invite you to = address.  Let me add a bit of justification for this approach. =  It is based precisely on what Andy Mallis alluded to: if it = ain=E2=80=99t broke don=E2=80=99t fix it, and I am sure that we all = agree that not everything is broken.  Without understanding = what we want to fix, we run a very high risk of not finding consensus = for solutions.

I am aware that there are other things going = on this week.  I think it=E2=80=99s been a while since I=E2=80=99ve = seen a thread as long as the NOMCOM thread, for instance.  I will = ask that we discuss these questions now, with an eye toward coming to = consensus next week.  Again, perfectly fine to offer an alternative = for a workplan.  But please if you are going to do so, do so = soon.

With regard to Larry=E2=80=99s request = for how things work today, I would like to highlight Olaf Kolkman=E2=80=99= s excellent presentation at the IETF Administrative Plenary in Montreal, = as well as the reading list that you may conveniently find here.

Eliot
= --Apple-Mail=_FD9F2B3E-4A43-4D3B-BFB8-6A6436461AD1--