From nobody Wed Jul 1 09:44:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B0D3A1221; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:44:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mkXlOKnmlsbm; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x329.google.com (mail-wm1-x329.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::329]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62F593A11FE; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x329.google.com with SMTP id 22so23130437wmg.1; Wed, 01 Jul 2020 09:44:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QfPXRXNK/NWPTnB4plDGKB+7lUwt36d/I37pIs2nFug=; b=NV3dg+foRrC6y4tK+tETnQU2azb1muHMPhM1SoGMo8lwWvdZij0PcT4VGSQ/M2Mgkt oNKlHsdMdeK9YPRCcDHd7pofJUgrUNsB8VSfaPsg0Fy++PeJVgQF8cPFLnw+GJScZc7j OTsxWMtvyFMKFGgMFGKD5kfkv05nG9OFl8ofusscRyf7eaBn7eS7I7FlZMp1EotFutUM chZvMQ8TVGKpJDytMP3jg2PxaHcqVFXrschhtT62ybGnhxoE1A4zgaJNrmk0xiyssOGx 5xvJzKTrZ14CFUvf7taJRRozU0kkbgCg776EZcK+m1AtoV5Y7OZXMnDAazzmunUAFuBC uYYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QfPXRXNK/NWPTnB4plDGKB+7lUwt36d/I37pIs2nFug=; b=tfer21J/wcAgTxHiOa2hTD1FM6Ei/GqWvb6n6xDYzeEZ+utybi473h9huNb0CzsxZG pPQFNz9o0j7pVOeaGAkA31HM/NMDfD1mmevm0nlEusAJ2gqS+xh3leTOHpT08jeurrFo 12JPB9AMPlGsuZs8D1EmH4cUp2WzYNpAay65brXTPtnfyVrFKBjYH/SSzXou87/yVlxq 17g6PfMovZM2icWEGpdSlcEoM4+Lh/I5V+LvSOZ8YxZX6+mDK+2wycex2gfioWFYuQLw 84Zn5139OzzxSmBxrV9ckREzgD7ZRNgG9YFh0Pe6c4gAMYrM6PYOuvK666PIQnKXQXQT hqYA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531bnjjf5WIEjLPxcE2HVTXmQoeL/XJ8pIh20Lv3uHqZ4vWauyGF 2dBSc8kdhY5D/1cpu72dkW+VIXqTWBK5Y1WpeVObL39z X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy4uQFcNaTI97KWd4kbU1WVu4mQW2b01iRoN/nPwnsSfUEVZfsi3+sbtlbltN24fTEiYlCgXV4evx3oojLEueY= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c84d:: with SMTP id c13mr27437006wml.170.1593621876667; Wed, 01 Jul 2020 09:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:44:35 -0700 From: Alvaro Retana MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:44:35 -0700 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138@ietf.org Cc: Ines Robles , roll-chairs@ietf.org, Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Roll] AD Review of draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 16:44:46 -0000 Dear authors: I hope you are doing well and staying healthy! In short, I believe that the specification in this draft is incomplete. =C2=A0Specifically: (1) =C2=A75.2 talks about the use of a single RPL instance, where an extra = OCP is =C2=A0 =C2=A0 needed. =C2=A0However, that OCP is not defined/assigned anywh= ere. =C2=A0It then =C2=A0 =C2=A0 seems to me that this scenario cannot be implemented. =C2=A0A= m I missing =C2=A0 =C2=A0 something? =C2=A0Is the intent of this section to specify the= scenario, or =C2=A0 =C2=A0 simply as an example of something that was considered but not= recommended =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (in favor of =C2=A75,3)? (2) The text talks in several places about how a "parent router must =C2=A0 =C2=A0 know...when a leaf does not support the compression defined i= n =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC8138]." =C2=A0There is no specification related to *how* = the parent would =C2=A0 =C2=A0 know. =C2=A0The only hint is in the Introduction: "by configu= ration, or =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leveraging "RPL Capabilities" [CAPABILITIES]". =C2=A0Note tha= t the rest of the =C2=A0 =C2=A0 text doesn't even mention configuration as an option. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I know that there's some resistance to normatively depend on =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-roll-capabilities. =C2=A0However, the specificatio= n does use =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Normative language when describing the expected action based = on the =C2=A0 =C2=A0 knowledge of support (or not); for example "delivering to a l= eaf that is =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not known to support [RFC8138], in which cases it MUST uncomp= ress the =C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet." (=C2=A74) =C2=A0 Knowing that a capability is not ye= t explicitly defined =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for this use, I think there are a couple of ways forward: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (a) Define, in this document or draft-ietf-roll-capabilities,= the =C2=A0 =C2=A0 capability to indicate support for rfc8138. =C2=A0Make =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-roll-capabilities a Normative reference. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (b) Specify that the current method to know if the leaf suppo= rts rfc8138 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is (only) configuration. =C2=A0Take all references to =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-roll-capabilities out. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Personal opinion: (a) is the complete solution.] (3) =C2=A73 says that ""T" flag is defined only for MOP value between 0 to = 6". =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The current registry is not set up for this type of assignmen= t, so it =C2=A0 =C2=A0 needs to be updated (see more specifics below). I will wait for these points to be addressed before moving the document forward. =C2=A0I also have more comments inline below. Thanks!! Alvaro. [Line numbers from idnits.] ... 11 Abstract 13 =C2=A0 This document updates RFC 8138 and RFC 6550 by defining a bit in= the 14 =C2=A0 RPL configuration option to indicate whether RFC 8138 compressio= n is 15 =C2=A0 used within the RPL Instance, and specify the behavior of RFC 16 =C2=A0 8138-capable nodes when the bit is set and reset. [major] rfc6550 talks about the "DODAG Configuration option", and not about a "RPL configuration option". =C2=A0Please be consistent! ... 70 1. =C2=A0Introduction 72 =C2=A0 The transition of a RPL [RFC6550] network to activate the compre= ssion 73 =C2=A0 defined in [RFC8138] can only be done when all routers in the ne= twork 74 =C2=A0 support it. =C2=A0Otherwise, a non-capable node acting as a rout= er would 75 =C2=A0 drop the compressed packets and black-hole its subDAG. =C2=A0In = a mixed 76 =C2=A0 case with both RFC8138-capable and non-capable nodes, the compre= ssion 77 =C2=A0 may be turned on only if all the non-capable nodes act as Hosts = and 78 =C2=A0 their RPL parents handle the compression/decompression for them. [nit] Expand/explain subDAG. ... 128 2.2. =C2=A0Glossary 130 =C2=A0 This document often uses the following acronyms: [nit] Some of the acronyms were already defined in the previous section. ... 147 2.3. =C2=A0BCP 14 [minor] s/BCP 14/Requirements Language ... 155 3. =C2=A0Updating RFC 6550 [major] I don't think that a formal Update to rfc6550 is necessary. In general, a formal Update indicates (at least to me) that an rfc6550 implementation has to also support this specification. =C2=A0IOW, all RPL routers will have to support the new flag to be compliant with rfc6550. =C2=A0Also, rfc8138 did not formally Update rfc6550. [minor] I think that this section could be reorganized a little: start by telling the reader what the Configuration Option is and that it is distributed everywhere...this should provide background to understand the availability of the T bit in the network. 157 =C2=A0 This specification defines a new flag "Enable RFC8138 Compressi= on" 158 =C2=A0 (T). =C2=A0The "T" flag is set to turn on the use of the compre= ssion of 159 =C2=A0 RPL artifacts with [RFC8138] within a RPL Instance. =C2=A0If a = RPL 160 =C2=A0 Instance has multiple Roots then they must be coordinated to us= e the 161 =C2=A0 same setting. [major] Do we need a Normative MUST in the last sentence? =C2=A0What is the effect of the roots not coordinating? 163 =C2=A0 RPL defines a Configuration Option that is registered to IANA i= n 164 =C2=A0 section 20.14. of [RFC6550]. =C2=A0The "T" flag is encoded in o= ne of the 165 =C2=A0 reserved control bits in the RPL Configuration Option. =C2=A0Th= e bit 166 =C2=A0 position of the "T" flag is indicated in Section 6. [minor] "RPL defines a Configuration Option that is registered to IANA in section 20.14. of [RFC6550]." =C2=A0The Configuration Option (the whole thing) is not registered to IANA, the Flags have a registry managed by IANA. [minor] It would be very nice if the packet format was shown here with the new flag. 168 =C2=A0 Section 6.3.1. =C2=A0of [RFC6550] defines a 3-bit Mode of Opera= tion (MOP) 169 =C2=A0 in the DIO Base Object. =C2=A0The new "T" flag is defined only = for MOP 170 =C2=A0 value between 0 to 6. =C2=A0For a MOP value of 7 or above, the = flag MAY 171 =C2=A0 indicate something different and MUST NOT be interpreted as "En= able 172 =C2=A0 RFC8138 Compression" unless the specification of the MOP indica= tes to 173 =C2=A0 do so. [major] The last sentence is not needed: the second one already says that the flag is only valid for 0-6. Also, I think there's a Normative conflict with "MAY indicate something different and MUST NOT be interpreted as...unless the specification of the MOP indicates to do so." =C2=A0Perhaps, if you really want to keep some text, you can include something like this: =C2=A0 =C2=A0A document defining a MOP with value 7 or above MUST specify t= he behavior =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the T flag. [major] Regardless of the text, this document is specifying a split in the registry (at last for this flag): it applies to some MOPs, but not all. =C2=A0The registry needs to be updated in the IANA Considerations section to show that difference. =C2=A0Is this update being done somewhere else? I thought that draft-ietf-roll-mopex would be a good place, but the update doesn't seem to be there. =C2=A0The intent of not applying to all the MOPs can't be finalized until the registry can reflect it. 175 4. =C2=A0Updating RFC 8138 177 =C2=A0 A node that supports this specification MUST source packets in = the 178 =C2=A0 compressed form using [RFC8138] if and only if the "T" flag is = set. 179 =C2=A0 This behaviour can be overridden by the configuration of the no= de in 180 =C2=A0 order to cope with intermediate implementations of the Root tha= t 181 =C2=A0 support [RFC8138] but not this specification and cannot set the= "T" 182 =C2=A0 flag. [nit] s/A node that supports this specification/A node [major] "MUST...if and only if...behaviour can be overridden" =C2=A0 s/MUST= /SHOULD 184 =C2=A0 The decision of using [RFC8138] is made by the originator of th= e 185 =C2=A0 packet depending on its capabilities and its knowledge of the s= tate 186 =C2=A0 of the "T" flag. =C2=A0A router that encapsulates a packet is t= he 187 =C2=A0 originator of the resulting packet and decides whether to compr= ess 188 =C2=A0 the outer headers as indicated above. =C2=A0An external target 189 =C2=A0 [USEofRPLinfo] is not expected to support [RFC8138]. =C2=A0An i= ntermediate 190 =C2=A0 router MUST forward the packet in the form that the source used= , 191 =C2=A0 either compressed or uncompressed, unless it is forwarding to a= n 192 =C2=A0 external target or delivering to a leaf that is not known to su= pport 193 =C2=A0 [RFC8138], in which cases it MUST uncompress the packet. [minor] "as indicated above" =C2=A0Where? [major] "MUST forward...unless...MUST" =C2=A0That's a strange construct with the exception in the middle. NEW> =C2=A0 =C2=A0An intermediate router MUST uncompress a packet that is to be = forwarded =C2=A0 =C2=A0to an external target or delivered to a leaf that is not known= to support =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC8138]. =C2=A0Otherwise, the router MUST forward the packet= in the form that =C2=A0 =C2=A0the source used, either compressed or uncompressed. [major] "not known" =C2=A0How would the router know? =C2=A0=C2=A71 mentions capabilities as an example), but that is not part of the specification...the MUSTs above make it so. 195 5. =C2=A0Transition Scenarios ... 207 =C2=A0 A node that does not support [RFC8138] can interoperate with no= des 208 =C2=A0 that do in a network with [RFC8138] compression turned off. =C2= =A0If the 209 =C2=A0 compression is turned on, the node cannot forward compressed pa= ckets 210 =C2=A0 and therefore it cannot act as a router. =C2=A0It may remain co= nnected to 211 =C2=A0 that network as a leaf, generates uncompressed packets, and can 212 =C2=A0 receive packets if they are delivered by the parent router in t= he 213 =C2=A0 uncompressed form. =C2=A0Unless this is known by other means, t= he node 214 =C2=A0 SHOULD join as a RUL as an indication that its parent router ne= eds to 215 =C2=A0 uncompress the packets before delivering. [nit] s/generates/generate [minor] "this is known" =C2=A0This, what? =C2=A0Assuming that "this" refers= to the lack of support for rfc8138, we're then to the question of *how* would it be known. [major] "the node SHOULD join as a RUL" =C2=A0To be clear, we're talking about a node that doesn't support rfc8138, right? =C2=A0I'm assuming that if it doesn't support rfc8138 then it won't support this specification either -- then we can't normatively define anything that this type of node would do! 217 =C2=A0 [RFC6550] states that "Nodes other than the DODAG Root MUST NOT 218 =C2=A0 modify this information when propagating the DODAG Configuratio= n 219 =C2=A0 option". =C2=A0Therefore, even a legacy parent propagates the "= T" flag as 220 =C2=A0 set by the Root whether it supports this specification or not. = =C2=A0So 221 =C2=A0 when the "T" flag is set, it is transparently flooded to all th= e 222 =C2=A0 nodes in the RPL Instance. [major] s/[RFC6550] states/[RFC6550] states, when referring to the DODAG Configuration option, 224 =C2=A0 Sections 8.5 and 9.2 of [RFC6550] also suggests that a RAN may = only 225 =C2=A0 attach to a DODAG as a leaf when it does not support the Mode o= f 226 =C2=A0 Operation of a RPL Instance, the Objective Function (OF) as ind= icated 227 =C2=A0 by the Objective Code Point (OCP) or some other parameters in t= he 228 =C2=A0 configuration option. [minor] s/also suggests that a RAN may only attach/specify that a RAN may a= ttach 230 =C2=A0 This specification reiterates that a RAN that is configured to 231 =C2=A0 operate in a RPL Instance but does not support a value for a kn= own 232 =C2=A0 parameter that is mandatory for routing, such as the OCP, MUST = NOT 233 =C2=A0 operate as a router but MAY still join as a leaf. =C2=A0Note th= at a legacy 234 =C2=A0 RAN will not recognize when a reserved field is used and will n= ot 235 =C2=A0 turn to a leaf when the "T" flag is set. [major] "This specification reiterates..." =C2=A0Saying things again is not a big deal; but normatively specifying them is. =C2=A0In this case it is not only not necessary, but also has no effect over nodes that don't support this document...so it is not needed. ... 244 5.1. =C2=A0Inconsistent State While Migrating 246 =C2=A0 When the "T" flag is turned on in the configuration option by t= he 247 =C2=A0 Root, the information slowly percolates through the DODAG as th= e DIO 248 =C2=A0 gets propagated. [?] How slow? =C2=A0Seconds, minutes? 250 =C2=A0 Some nodes will see the flag and start sourcing packets in the 251 =C2=A0 compressed form while other nodes in the same RPL Instance are = still 252 =C2=A0 not aware of it. =C2=A0Conversely, in non-storing mode, the Roo= t will 253 =C2=A0 start using [RFC8138] with a Source Routing Header 6LoRH (SRH-6= LoRH) 254 =C2=A0 that routes all the way to the parent router or to the leaf. [minor] I don't understand how the second sentence reverses ("Conversely") the statement in the first sentence...or how the mode affects the outcome of nodes (including the Root) sending compressed packets when others may not still be aware of the flag or able to support receiving the packets... [minor] "[RFC8138] with a Source Routing Header 6LoRH (SRH-6LoRH)" sounds redundant. =C2=A0Also, this is the only place in the document where the use of rfc8138 is coupled with the SRH-6LoRH. =C2=A0Not wrong, just redundant and inconsistent. =C2=A0If needed, the sentence can be restructured. 256 =C2=A0 To ensure that a packet is forwarded across the RPL Instance in= the 257 =C2=A0 form in which it was generated, it is required that all the rou= ters 258 =C2=A0 support [RFC8138] at the time of the switch, and that all nodes= that 259 =C2=A0 do not support [RFC8138] only operate as leaves. 261 =C2=A0 Setting the "T" flag is ultimately the responsibility of the ne= twork 262 =C2=A0 administrator. =C2=A0In a case of upgrading a network to turn t= he 263 =C2=A0 compression on, the network SHOULD be operated with the "T" fla= g 264 =C2=A0 reset until all targeted nodes are upgraded to support this 265 =C2=A0 specification. =C2=A0Section 5.2 and Section 5.3 provide possib= le 266 =C2=A0 transition scenarios where this can be enforced. [major] This section talks about inconsistencies, and it is "required that all the routers support [RFC8138]", but then not setting the T flag is only recommended. =C2=A0Why/when is it ok to set the flag if it is known that not all nodes support rfc8138? =C2=A0IOW, why not use MUST? 268 5.2. =C2=A0Single RPL Instance Scenario 270 =C2=A0 In a Single RPL Instance Scenario, nodes that support [RFC8138]= are 271 =C2=A0 configured with a new OCP, that may use the same OF operation o= r a 272 =C2=A0 variation of it, while nodes that do not support [RFC8138] are = not, 273 =C2=A0 but are configured to join an unknown OCP. [major] A new OCP? =C2=A0I only see 2 OCPs in the registry -- unless I'm missing something, there's no way to configure "a new OCP, that may use the same OF". ... 279 =C2=A0 The parent router - which supports [RFC8138] - compresses the p= ackets 280 =C2=A0 originated from the leaf and uncompresses the packets going to = the 281 =C2=A0 leaf. =C2=A0This may be done on the fly by the parent of a non-= capable 282 =C2=A0 RAL, or as part of the tunneling operation between the parent a= nd the 283 =C2=A0 Root, if the leaf behaves as a RUL. =C2=A0This is described in = section 7, 284 =C2=A0 8, and 9 of [USEofRPLinfo]. [nit] s/This is/This operation is 286 =C2=A0 Note that though tunneling from the Root to the parent is the g= eneric 287 =C2=A0 case for RULs, on paper it is possible for the Root to avoid it= for 288 =C2=A0 the traffic that it originates. =C2=A0The Root SHOULD always us= e tunneling 289 =C2=A0 to the parent of a RUL, even for its own packets, unless it kno= ws 290 =C2=A0 that the leaf supports [RFC8138]. [nit] s/on paper/ [major] "RUL...unless it knows that the leaf supports [RFC8138]" Isn't this a contradiction? =C2=A0[BTW, =C2=A71 says that RULs implicitly d= on't support rfc8138.] [major] "unless it knows that the leaf supports [RFC8138]" =C2=A0Assuming you're not talking about a RUL, how do you know? =C2=A0=C2=A71 mentions capabilities as an example, but that is not part of the specification...the SHOULD above makes it so. ... 294 =C2=A0 * =C2=A0The method consumes an extra OCP. =C2=A0It also forces = nodes that do 295 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not support [RFC8138] to operate as RULs, unless t= here is a method 296 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to let the parent router know that it must uncompr= ess the packet 297 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for this RAL. [major] What is this "method to let the parent router know..."? 299 =C2=A0 * =C2=A0If the RPL implementation of a node does not turn it to= a leaf 300 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0when the OCP is changed to an unknown one, then th= e node may be 301 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stalled. [minor] Right, but then this implementation wouldn't be compliant with rfc6= 550. 303 =C2=A0 * =C2=A0If the only possible parents of a node are nodes that d= o not 304 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0support [RFC8138], then that node will loose all i= ts parent at the 305 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0time of the migration and it will be stalled until= a parent is 306 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deployed with the new capability. [minor] If the parents don't support rfc3183 then they would have joined as leaves anyway (because of the new OCP) and wouldn't really be available as parents, right? =C2=A0What am I missing? 308 5.3. =C2=A0Double RPL Instances Scenario ... 319 =C2=A0 Nodes that support [RFC8138] participate in both Instances but = favor 320 =C2=A0 the new RPL Instance for the traffic that they source. =C2=A0By= contrast, 321 =C2=A0 nodes that only support the uncompressed format would either no= t be 322 =C2=A0 configured for the new RPL Instance, or would be configured to = join 323 =C2=A0 it as leaves only. [major] "Nodes that support [RFC8138]...favor the new RPL Instance for the traffic that they source..." =C2=A0 Support for rfc8138 doesn't require compression. =C2=A0IOW, a node that supports rfc8138 can compress, but it doesn't have to, right? =C2=A0I think you need to be more specific when talking about "favor"; does it mean that the routers SHOULD use the new instance? ... 330 =C2=A0 The 2 instances MUST be operated with the same security guarant= ees, 331 =C2=A0 e.g., both "unsecured" with a lower layer security of a same 332 =C2=A0 strength, both "preinstalled" or both "authenticated" security = mode 333 =C2=A0 (see section 3.2.3 of [RFC6550] for more details on those modes= ). 334 =C2=A0 The latter mode could be use to enforce the segregation of upda= ted 335 =C2=A0 and non-updated nodes, by providing the keys for joining as rou= ters 336 =C2=A0 to the updated nodes only. [nit] s/could be use/could be used [major] "The 2 instances MUST be operated with the same security guarantees..." =C2=A0Why is that a requirement? =C2=A0Would something break= if it is not the case? 338 5.4. =C2=A0Rolling Back 340 =C2=A0 After downgrading a network to turn the [RFC8138] compression o= ff, 341 =C2=A0 the administrator SHOULD make sure that all nodes have converge= d to 342 =C2=A0 the "T" flag reset before allowing nodes that do not support th= e 343 =C2=A0 compression in the network (see caveats in Section 5.2). [minor] "downgrading" sounds as if software needs to changed (at least)...but in this case it is a configuration change. =C2=A0Maybe something like: =C2=A0 =C2=A0When turning [RFC8138] compression off in the network... [major] s/SHOULD make sure that all nodes have converged/SHOULD wait until all nodes have converged [minor] How does the administrator know when the nodes have converged? =C2=A0Given the potential problems, it sounds like a MUST may be more appropriate...?? [minor] "see caveats in Section 5.2" =C2=A0The caveats there don't seem to apply unless the single instance scenario is specified somehow... ... 349 6. =C2=A0IANA Considerations 351 =C2=A0 This specification updates the Registry for the "DODAG Configur= ation 352 =C2=A0 Option Flags" that was created for [RFC6550] as follows: [major] s/This specification updates/IANA is requested to assign a new option flag from 354 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +------------+---------------------------------+-= ----------+ 355 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | Bit Number | Capability Description =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Reference | 356 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+ 357 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | 2 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Turn on R= FC8138 Compression (T) | THIS RFC =C2=A0| 358 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +------------+---------------------------------+-= ----------+ [major] This value (even though is free in the registry) should be marked as a suggestion for IANA. ... 362 7. =C2=A0Security Considerations 364 =C2=A0 First of all, it is worth noting that with [RFC6550], every nod= e in 365 =C2=A0 the LLN that is RPL-aware can inject any RPL-based attack in th= e 366 =C2=A0 network. =C2=A0A trust model MUST be put in place so that rogue= nodes are 367 =C2=A0 excluded from participating to the RPL and the 6LowpAN signalin= g, and 368 =C2=A0 from the data packet exchange. =C2=A0This trust model could be = at a 369 =C2=A0 minimum based on a Layer-2 Secure joining and the Link-Layer 370 =C2=A0 security. =C2=A0This is a generic RPL and 6LoWPAN requirement, = see Req5.1 371 =C2=A0 in Appendix of [RFC8505]. [major] Is this paragraph talks about an "generic RPL and 6LoWPAN requirement", then please don't use Normative language. =C2=A0Also, pointing at the appropriate RFCs and their Security Considerations is enough. [] As a side note, secure joining doesn't really prevent a rogue node from being in the network. =C2=A0Consider the case where the node is subverted after joining...or simply where the administrator can set the T flag (as below). 373 =C2=A0 Setting the "T" flag before some routers are upgraded may cause= a 374 =C2=A0 loss of packets. =C2=A0The new bit is protected as the rest of = the 375 =C2=A0 configuration so this is just one of the many attacks that can = happen 376 =C2=A0 if an attacker manages to inject a corrupted configuration. [nit] s/before some routers/before all routers ... 392 9. =C2=A0Normative References ... 414 =C2=A0 [RFC7228] =C2=A0Bormann, C., Ersue, M., and A. Keranen, "Termin= ology for 415 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Constrained-Node Netwo= rks", RFC 7228, 416 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DOI 10.17487/RFC7228, = May 2014, 417 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0. [major] This reference should be Informative. ... 427 =C2=A0 [UNAWARE-LEAVES] 428 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thubert, P. and M. Ric= hardson, "Routing for RPL Leaves", 429 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Work in Progress, Inte= rnet-Draft, draft-ietf-roll-unaware- 430 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaves-14, 11 April 20= 20, . [minor] This reference can be Informative. 433 10. =C2=A0Informative References ... 441 =C2=A0 [RFC8138] =C2=A0Thubert, P., Ed., Bormann, C., Toutain, L., and= R. Cragie, 442 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"IPv6 over Low-Power W= ireless Personal Area Network 443 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(6LoWPAN) Routing Head= er", RFC 8138, DOI 10.17487/RFC8138, 444 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0April 2017, . [major] This reference must be Normative. From nobody Thu Jul 2 22:30:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6E13A0CA9; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 22:30:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uFphmz6moiH9; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 22:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F20673A0CA6; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 22:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.112] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49yk6668KkzyTd; Fri, 3 Jul 2020 07:29:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 615446942.658463-3e642dbc64b383affb32b90c0e8c1d68 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 07:29:02 +0200 To: 6lo@ietf.org, 6tisch@ietf.org, lp-wan@ietf.org, lwip@ietf.org, roll@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [Roll] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF108: FINAL AGENDA X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2020 05:30:17 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the FINAL AGENDA for IETF108. Remember that, occasionally, further agenda changes do happen. There has been no change from the DRAFT AGENDA in the Conflicts I noted: LAKE/SUIT (!). ACE/RATS. (I think 6LO/COSE can be ignored.) The only significant change is that LAKE/SUIT/LOOPS has been exchanged with CORE/TLS/TSVWG (Tuesday 1410Z vs. Friday 1100Z). Also, the mysterious HACKATHON has vanished. All times appear to be in UTC, even though nothing says so in the text agenda; https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc gives the same times. This time, I have focused on the events in Week 31; please see the original agenda for Week 30 preliminaries. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten MONDAY, July 27, 2020 1100-1240 Session I Rm 1 ART dispatch Dispatch WG - Joint with ARTAREA Rm 2 IRTF pearg Privacy Enhancements and Assessments Research = Group Rm 5 SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning WG 1300-1350 Session II Rm 2 ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance = and Extensions WG Rm 3 INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG Rm 6 RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Rm 7 RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG 1410-1550 Session III Rm 1 ART webtrans WebTransport WG Rm 3 IRTF qirg Quantum Internet Research Group Rm 7 SEC gnap Grant Negotiation and Authorization Protocol WG TUESDAY, July 28, 2020 1100-1240 Session I Rm 1 ART *** asdf A Semantic Definition Format for Data and = Interactions of Things BOF Rm 2 INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Rm 3 IRTF irtfopen IRTF Open Meeting Rm 8 TSV masque Multiplexed Application Substrate over QUIC = Encryption WG 1300-1350 Session II Rm 7 SEC mls Messaging Layer Security WG Rm 8 SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG 1410-1550 Session III Rm 1 ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Rm 6 SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Rm 7 TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG WEDNESDAY, July 29, 2020 1100-1240 Session I Rm 4 RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Rm 5 SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for Constrained = Environments WG Rm 6 SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG Rm 7 TSV quic QUIC WG 1300-1350 Session II Rm 1 INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of Resource-constrained Nodes = WG Rm 4 RTG rift Routing In Fat Trees WG Rm 5 SEC *** cose CBOR Object Signing and Encryption WG Rm 6 TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting 1410-1550 IETF Plenary - Plenary THURSDAY, July 30, 2020 1100-1240 Session I Rm 3 OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and = Approach WG Rm 4 RTG raw Reliable and Available Wireless WG Rm 5 SEC secdispatch Security Dispatch WG Rm 6 TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1300-1350 Session II Rm 4 INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks WG Rm 7 SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting 1410-1550 Session III Rm 2 INT add Adaptive DNS Discovery WG Rm 3 INT *** drip Drone Remote ID Protocol WG Rm 6 SEC acme Automated Certificate Management Environment WG FRIDAY, July 31, 2020 1100-1240 Session I Rm 5 SEC *** lake Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange WG Rm 6 SEC *** suit Software Updates for Internet of Things WG Rm 7 TSV loops Local Optimizations on Path Segments BOF 1300-1350 Session II Rm 3 ART wpack Web Packaging WG Rm 4 INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Rm 6 SEC emu EAP Method Update WG 1410-1550 Session III Rm 1 ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Rm 4 IRTF coinrg Computing in the Network Research Group Rm 7 SEC privacypass Privacy Pass WG From nobody Fri Jul 3 06:17:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR11MB35657CEB09EA8FB7F1BF8391D8690MN2PR11MB3565namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: aab15957-d38e-4f7d-3e0f-08d821c78aa5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Jul 2020 16:13:37.9559 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 9uGkaYqapNkaslB+bNMAL1phQBksQUhqi9UfKvI1tNYYTRMXOxICN7ctmsDXshCfqKGE0U3fYUM7sQ8KU68aRg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB3565 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.15, xch-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 16:14:06 -0000 --_000_MN2PR11MB35657CEB09EA8FB7F1BF8391D8690MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all Alvaro raised an issue about 1. Why intermediate routers that do not support the compression have to = be leaves 2. the decision to undo compression when delivering a packet to the dest= ination, where the "knowledge" of support comes from 3. the relationship between this draft and the capabilities We need your advice to move forward. Please bear with me and help us with a= rguments if you see reasons to go / nogo as proposed below: For 1) I plan to clarify that we want to avoid compressing and decompressin= g on the way, so when RFC 8138 is turned on, one can be a router if and onl= y if it can forward the compressed form. Without that rule, we'd need to kn= ow the support of the next hop before we forward in compressed form and we = do not have that signaling (we'll need 3) for that). With that rule, if the next hop is not the final destination, then it is a = router and it supports the compressed format. So if there's an SRH that is = not fully consumed when forwarding, the next hop supports the compression. = This is a huge simplification, at least in non-storing mode. Since RPL does not signal a leaf from a router, when a router passes a pac= ket to a child RAN in storing mode, the router does not know if this RAN ow= ns the destination address so it does not know if it is a router so even wi= th the rule above, it still cannot infer the support of compression. Argl. This takes us to 2) The above is why in the current text the leaf that does= not support the compression SHOULD act as a RUL, so it is an external targ= et and thus the default for it is to decompress before forwarding. Alvaro a= nd I are talking about MUSTing that, with the argument that a RUL supportin= g the RPL compression looks like an oxymoron. If we MUST that the nodes that do not support the compression have to becom= e RULs, then by definition all the RANs left support it. There is no more n= eed to have a special "knowledge" of support about nodes. The parent knows = it is delivering to a RUL, so it knows to undo compression if there's somet= hing left; usually there's nothing to do: there's a inner packet that is de= capsulated and forwarded by the RUL's parent and that is not compressed wit= h RFC 8138. So with that additional rule: Parent to child where child is RUL =3D> decompress Everywhere else =3D> forward compressed The corollary question to the group is whether we make the rule above speci= fic to a storing mode DODAG, and in non-storing we say that the default is = to uncompress once the SRH is fully consumed. Which one works best? For 3) I think we should remove the discussion on the capabilities work fro= m this draft. Capabilities are a RPLv2 feature (MOP>=3D7) whereas the turno= n flag is only defined for RPLv1 (MOP<7). The capability can help to decide= when to turn on, and that is earlier in the flow. The draft covers what ha= ppens when the decision is made. When the capabilities infrastructure is available, if we decide to have a c= apability for RFC 8138, we can reconsider all the decisions above, whether = a RAN can stay a RAL as opposed to a RUL when the compression is on and eve= n whether we accept to decompress / recompress between routers. This would = be a new design for RPLv2. But it might also be that we simply MUST the sup= port of RFC 8138 with RPLv2, in which can we will not need a capability. Th= at's a decision for the future, we do not need it now. So do we agree to remove the reference to capabilities? Pascal --_000_MN2PR11MB35657CEB09EA8FB7F1BF8391D8690MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all

 

Alvaro raised an issue about

  1. Wh= y intermediate routers that do not support the compression have to be leave= s
  2. the decision to undo compression when deliveri= ng a packet to the destination, where the “knowledge” of suppor= t comes from
  3. the relationship between this draft= and the capabilities

 

We need your advice to move forward. Please bear with me and= help us with arguments if you see reasons to go / nogo as proposed below:<= o:p>

 

For 1) I plan to clarify that we want to avoid compressing a= nd decompressing on the way, so when RFC 8138 is turned on, one can be a ro= uter if and only if it can forward the compressed form. Without that rule, we’d need to know the support of the next h= op before we forward in compressed form and we do not have that signaling (= we’ll need 3) for that).

 

With that rule, if the next hop is not the final destination= , then it is a router and it supports the compressed format. So if there= 217;s an SRH that is not fully consumed when forwarding, the next hop supports the compression. This is a huge simplification, at l= east in non-storing mode.

 

Since  RPL does not signal a leaf from a router, when a= router passes a packet to a child RAN in storing mode, the router does not= know if this RAN owns the destination address so it does not know if it is a router so even with the rule above, it stil= l cannot infer the support of compression.  Argl.

 

This takes us to 2) The above is why in the current text the= leaf that does not support the compression SHOULD act as a RUL, so it is a= n external target and thus the default for it is to decompress before forwarding. Alvaro and I are talking about MUST= ing that, with the argument that a RUL supporting the RPL compression looks= like an oxymoron.

 

If we MUST that the nodes that do not support the compressio= n have to become RULs, then by definition all the RANs left support it. The= re is no more need to have a special “knowledge” of support about nodes. The parent knows it is delivering to a RUL, so it = knows to undo compression if there’s something left; usually there= 217;s nothing to do: there’s a inner packet that is decapsulated and = forwarded by the RUL’s parent and that is not compressed with RFC 8138.

 

So with that additional rule:

Parent to child where child is RUL =3D> decompress

Everywhere else =3D> forward compressed=

 

The corollary question to the group is whether we make the r= ule above specific to a storing mode DODAG, and in non-storing we say that = the default is to uncompress once the SRH is fully consumed. Which one works best?

 

For 3) I think we should remove the discussion on the capabi= lities work from this draft. Capabilities are a RPLv2 feature (MOP>=3D7)= whereas the turnon flag is only defined for RPLv1 (MOP<7). The capability can help to decide when to turn on, and t= hat is earlier in the flow. The draft covers what happens when the decision= is made.

 

When the capabilities infrastructure is available, if we dec= ide to have a capability for RFC 8138, we can reconsider all the decisions = above, whether a RAN can stay a RAL as opposed to a RUL when the compression is on and even whether we accept to decompre= ss / recompress between routers. This would be a new design for RPLv2. But = it might also be that we simply MUST the support of RFC 8138 with RPLv2, in= which can we will not need a capability. That’s a decision for the future, we do not need it now.<= /span>

 

So do we agree to remove the reference to capabilities?

 

Pascal

--_000_MN2PR11MB35657CEB09EA8FB7F1BF8391D8690MN2PR11MB3565namp_-- From nobody Mon Jul 6 10:23:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8B9A3A17C2 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 10:23:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t0hFherpSwP2 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 10:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 530D93A17C1 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 10:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A585389A6; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id MqqS96fyrigA; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8C5389A5; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EBB354C; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:23:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks , "'roll-ads\@tools.ietf.org'" In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 17:23:06 -0000 --==-=-= Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\) wrote: > This takes us to 2) The above is why in the current text the leaf that > does not support the compression SHOULD act as a RUL, so it is an > external target and thus the default for it is to decompress before > forwarding. Alvaro and I are talking about MUSTing that, with the > argument that a RUL supporting the RPL compression looks like an > oxymoron. The problem is that this is a new rule (new code), and the point was to allow rfc8138 to be turned on without new code, right? When we did RFC8138, it was stated that it would get deployed in greenfields only, and that we didn't need signaling. That's not the case, so we have jumped on this work to do "something". This document is not supposed to accomodate old nodes: compression is either supported on every node, or not yet supported on every node. To determine that dynamically, we need capabilities. What we have in this document is an operator controlled bit, not dynamic at all. I'm not sure when it mutated it's purpose :-) I believe that the document has tried to do too many things. Maybe just cut out everything that is not about that bit. For instance, section 5, paragraph 3: If the compression is turned on, the node cannot forward compressed packets and therefore it cannot act as a router. should just say, "the node/network fails" > To ensure that a packet is forwarded across the RPL Instance in the > form in which it was generated, it is required that all the routers > support [RFC8138] at the time of the switch, and that all nodes that > do not support [RFC8138] only operate as leaves. I believe it is a misconfiguration (operator error) to turn on rfc8138 if there are nodes that do not support it. Just don't deal with that. --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: Signature -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-=-- --==-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8DXfQACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVOmggAitfIKR1SAo7uFfPU5tjfSFhrwMgkdM1vTT8yqRaSlXyE2CKRaza9fWAS jtaF/UGxe89XCTEAxvPYqALyPnIdmRNt7FKRlcLwFGt9h5yUeH3HL0IJlgjCrIHu SkeKfB/DAjHm6XRbU3D2omRVKgIDe39m1rkVKSfCKUbOAorOc5/sISqlpImn0FcN HZyqurMNp7gEbd6Jb72vlBrjIKPLQYoH5fbbORsDvuVDANq9iWQ4kkqcsbhHihaW h7dqOtyCY1XWOWIF/rsgNwSUEMyOZ4DTLMzuaHbhDylr2vdJZLjD7wXIbhqgnjcn GO+zLzfLnWQeSvtDGzFSqvfVtPBPiw== =kn6M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 7 00:57:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26813A02BE; 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Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:57:38 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks , "roll-ads@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 Thread-Index: AdZTplwpn8kqIWljTEmY8gxaq0eNOgAE7ywAAB1Nt/A= Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:57:36 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:57:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <23854.1594056180@localhost> In-Reply-To: <23854.1594056180@localhost> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2a01:cb1d:4ec:2200:9909:7bae:eb40:4a61] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3ff5d8ea-2b2c-4730-2633-08d8224b6aca x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4047: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0457F11EAF x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3ff5d8ea-2b2c-4730-2633-08d8224b6aca X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Jul 2020 07:57:38.0380 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: rGDVk11e5IiNPPb+MuvIT/4e1xgBVsIE/d4DP+bNaYMIFWqAicvKcDuIfMMM4OZtg5CdeDt+Xgndx7P2UNjtog== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4047 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.12, xch-rcd-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 07:57:44 -0000 Hello Michael: This is really useful, many thanks for contributing. I'll need more from yo= u and the WG, please see below; > -----Original Message----- > From: Roll On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > Sent: lundi 6 juillet 2020 19:23 > To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks ; 'roll- > ads@tools.ietf.org' > Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 >=20 >=20 > Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\) wrote= : > > This takes us to 2) The above is why in the current text the leaf t= hat > > does not support the compression SHOULD act as a RUL, so it is an > > external target and thus the default for it is to decompress before > > forwarding. Alvaro and I are talking about MUSTing that, with the > > argument that a RUL supporting the RPL compression looks like an > > oxymoron. >=20 > The problem is that this is a new rule (new code), and the point was to a= llow > rfc8138 to be turned on without new code, right? The RUL text only applies to a node that would have some new code but not t= he support for compression. True, a legacy node cannot obey that. Which means that we can force it to b= e a leaf but we cannot force it to be a RUL. We can protect that legacy node in non-storing mode by forcing that the las= t hop must be uncompressed, e.g., with a configuration knob.=20 That's the special knowledge the doc talks about. The text defaults that if= we do not have a special knowledge the last hop must be uncompressed. The trouble is with storing mode. We never know when it's the last hop. So = we cannot uncompress, and the RAL will be cut off. Unless we have special k= nowledge that the RAL does not support the compression. This kinda reverse = the situation vs. non-storing. I believe I need a section to explain all th= at. >=20 > When we did RFC8138, it was stated that it would get deployed in greenfie= lds > only, and that we didn't need signaling. > That's not the case, so we have jumped on this work to do "something". True, that's this draft. >=20 > This document is not supposed to accomodate old nodes: compression is eit= her > supported on every node, or not yet supported on every node. Right. The document aims at enabling RFC 8138 in a brown field. The *normal= * scenario is migrate slowly the nodes with the bit off and when all are mi= grated turn the bit on. The complex case is that of "forgotten nodes", e.g.= , nodes for which there was never a new code for this draft and for the com= pression, to try to serve them still. Imagine a network where thousands of = meters out of millions are from an old brand that can never be upgraded. Ca= n we replace them? Probably not. So do we live with the idea that the compr= ession can never be turned on in the whole network?=20 That's the big question to the group, is that a valid use case. Because if = it is, we do not want to have to do yet another draft do we? Note that if there are too many of them, turning them into leaves will kill= the network anyway. This is why we have the 2 instances scenario. > To determine that dynamically, we need capabilities. Yes, in the normal scenario, the benefit of capabilities would be to ensure= that all nodes are migrated. But if a node cannot be migrated, the capabil= ities can also tell the parent to uncompress when forwarding to this node. = Life will be a lot simpler, though, if we mandate the support of the compre= ssion in RPLv2. That means no configuration bit, and no capabilities. Where= 's the best investment of code? > What we have in this document is an operator controlled bit, not dynamic = at > all. Yes. And management to decide if all nodes are migrated as opposed to capab= ilities. That works. > I'm not sure when it mutated it's purpose :-) Not really mutated but added work beyond the *normal* scenario to accommoda= te some non-migrated nodes by 1) making them leaves so they do not blackhol= e the network and 2) trying to find way to detect them so the parent can un= compress.=20 =20 > I believe that the document has tried to do too many things. > Maybe just cut out everything that is not about that bit. I understand here that you find that 2) above may be excessive. Text below = indicates that you find 1) excessive too.=20 > For instance, section 5, paragraph 3: >=20 > If the > compression is turned on, the node cannot forward compressed packets > and therefore it cannot act as a router. >=20 > should just say, "the node/network fails" If we do not make the node a leaf doing 1) then yes, the network fails. If = we do 1 but not 2) only the node fails. > > To ensure that a packet is forwarded across the RPL Instance in the > > form in which it was generated, it is required that all the routers > > support [RFC8138] at the time of the switch, and that all nodes that > > do not support [RFC8138] only operate as leaves. >=20 > I believe it is a misconfiguration (operator error) to turn on rfc8138 if= there are > nodes that do not support it. Just don't deal with that. That would drop both the work for 1) and 2). That would simplify the draft = considerably. But we need to be careful, because if the case of scattered u= ntouchable meters is real then the compression can never be turned on. WG: Do we have some real world indication for this? 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HK2APC01FT036.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3260b91d-2d50-4e8c-1b63-08d82258fadc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Jul 2020 09:34:43.3360 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HK2APC01HT071 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 09:34:48 -0000 --_000_MAXPR01MB249302F0AEF0BE51120D35D6A9660MAXPR01MB2493INDP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right. The document aims at enabling RFC 8138 in a brown field. The *normal= * scenario is migrate slowly the nodes with the bit off and when all are mi= grated turn the bit on. The complex case is that of "forgotten nodes", e.g.= , nodes for which there was never a new code for this draft and for the com= pression, to try to serve them still. Imagine a network where thousands of = meters out of millions are from an old brand that can never be upgraded. Ca= n we replace them? Probably not. So do we live with the idea that the compr= ession can never be turned on in the whole network? That's the big question to the group, is that a valid use case. Because if = it is, we do not want to have to do yet another draft do we? Even if there are thousands of nodes from an old brand, they will be within= their own FAN (Field Area Network). The compression decision is on per Bor= der-Router/Root level i.e., usually at a FAN level. Point is, all the milli= ons shouldn't be impacted. My experience says that the firmware/meters in a= given FAN are upgraded simultaneously. If a FAN contains a mix of old and = new then it can continue using the uncompressed form. I wish we could support all three types of leaves in the same network: RULs= , RAL supporting compression, RAL not supporting compression, and all of th= is in both storing/non-storing. I also understand that the only problem cas= e is the leaves in storing mode since the knowledge of last-hop is not know= n. But without additional changes in terms of introducing more fields, it m= ay not be possible to handle this. The problem with these additional fields= is that they will be redundant once we have capabilities. I feel we do not need to handle the case of "forgotten nodes". --_000_MAXPR01MB249302F0AEF0BE51120D35D6A9660MAXPR01MB2493INDP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<Pascal>
Right. The document aims at enabling RFC 8138 in a brown field. The *normal= * scenario is migrate slowly the nodes with the bit off and when all are mi= grated turn the bit on. The complex case is that of "forgotten nodes&q= uot;, e.g., nodes for which there was never a new code for this draft and for the compression, to try to serve them st= ill. Imagine a network where thousands of meters out of millions are from a= n old brand that can never be upgraded. Can we replace them? Probably not. = So do we live with the idea that the compression can never be turned on in the whole network?

That's the big question to the group, is that a valid use case. Because if = it is, we do not want to have to do yet another draft do we?
</Pascal>

<Rahul>
Even if there are thousands of nodes from an old b= rand, they will be within their own FAN (Field Area Network). The compressi= on decision is on per Border-Router/Root level i.e., usually at a FAN level= . Point is, all the millions shouldn't be impacted. My experience says that the firmware/meters in a given FAN ar= e upgraded simultaneously. If a FAN contains a mix of old and new then it c= an continue using the uncompressed form.

I wish we could support all three types of leaves = in the same network: RULs, RAL supporting compression, RAL not supporting c= ompression, and all of this in both storing/non-storing. I also understand = that the only problem case is the leaves in storing mode since the knowledge of last-hop is not known. But w= ithout additional changes in terms of introducing more fields, it may not b= e possible to handle this. The problem with these additional fields is that= they will be redundant once we have capabilities.

I feel we do not need to handle the case of "= forgotten nodes".
</Rahul>

--_000_MAXPR01MB249302F0AEF0BE51120D35D6A9660MAXPR01MB2493INDP_-- From nobody Tue Jul 7 04:29:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0753A0B69; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 04:29:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QRTB2WSb3wQo; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 04:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A669E3A0B68; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 04:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B6CB3899F; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:26:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id TcMoUphnRGyb; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3759D38996; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2968B5C5; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:29:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks cc: "roll-ads\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <23854.1594056180@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 11:29:56 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\) wrote: > This is really useful, many thanks for contributing. I'll need more > from you and the WG, please see below; >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Roll On Behalf Of Michael Richardson >> Sent: lundi 6 juillet 2020 19:23 >> To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks ; 'roll- >> ads@tools.ietf.org' >> Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 >> >> >> Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\) wrote: >> > This takes us to 2) The above is why in the current text the leaf that >> > does not support the compression SHOULD act as a RUL, so it is an >> > external target and thus the default for it is to decompress before >> > forwarding. Alvaro and I are talking about MUSTing that, with the >> > argument that a RUL supporting the RPL compression looks like an >> > oxymoron. >> >> The problem is that this is a new rule (new code), and the point was to allow >> rfc8138 to be turned on without new code, right? > The RUL text only applies to a node that would have some new code but > not the support for compression. I think this is a unicorn :-) > True, a legacy node cannot obey that. Which means that we can force it > to be a leaf but we cannot force it to be a RUL. How can we force it to be a leaf without using a new MOP? >> This document is not supposed to accomodate old nodes: compression is either >> supported on every node, or not yet supported on every node. > Right. The document aims at enabling RFC 8138 in a brown field. The > *normal* scenario is migrate slowly the nodes with the bit off and when > all are migrated turn the bit on. This is the upgrading brownfield case. (Youtube has taught me that there is no such colour as "Brown". It's always Dark Orange in context) So, let's call this the "orangefield case" > The complex case is that of > "forgotten nodes", e.g., nodes for which there was never a new code for > this draft and for the compression, to try to serve them still. Imagine > a network where thousands of meters out of millions are from an old > brand that can never be upgraded. Can we replace them? Probably not. So > do we live with the idea that the compression can never be turned on in > the whole network? I think that's the cost for having deployed things you can't upgrade :-) -> "Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency for me" But, I think that we can probably solve the case with capabilities, and possibly new MOP values, but I don't see how, if we assume there are nodes that can not get new code *AT ALL* that we can expect them to have a different behaviour. > That's the big question to the group, is that a valid use case. Because > if it is, we do not want to have to do yet another draft do we? I don't want this draft to solve it. Just deal with orangefield case. > Yes, in the normal scenario, the benefit of capabilities would be to > ensure that all nodes are migrated. But if a node cannot be migrated, > the capabilities can also tell the parent to uncompress when forwarding > to this node. Life will be a lot simpler, though, if we mandate the > support of the compression in RPLv2. That means no configuration bit, > and no capabilities. Where's the best investment of code? I think we need to design capabilities, we can deploy them with RPLv1, and RPLv2 will simply be a marketing term that says the stack supports some set of smarter capabilities by default. I don't think we ever want a flag day. >> I believe it is a misconfiguration (operator error) to turn on rfc8138 if there are >> nodes that do not support it. Just don't deal with that. > That would drop both the work for 1) and 2). That would simplify the > draft considerably. But we need to be careful, because if the case of > scattered untouchable meters is real then the compression can never be > turned on. I think that we can turn compression on in parts of the network via capabilities, but turnonrfc8138 was urgently needed for the orangefield situation. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8EXK0ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXabAf/ZZPpscejZNh8TilgNFPx786EUoa4ABti1m9F76pDwZUtfYDROYcg9iwy 7LMkNx3pVCf7rR5PPxYiDBrrNAaqH1Crlzk53ZphOhDSwH+d1l75Hy/V3kPRhtPm ztNgEA8g7kp1uH4EX7vCiU4/E22ABKmiyS5Lpps87bCgi0+Er3h67axA+40CUcpQ MEHatDF4LKjCEkpqkTT9j/eDUBHrMXkdqDRWKKaR9e9Q4potg/qlKO8BCgxcGQgi Tp97Y4vKbck1ZLqIRXgS3Gq2bquBF2QawY5SndGNMe/ubzFA98nr0OVqeyMHhOIJ WeXB1eCzbvJfhGUTHSwyHhxcO7sRPw== =G5jY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 7 04:31:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E385C3A0B69; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 04:31:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0l9NjA64hkH3; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 04:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 889373A0B68; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 04:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE1A389A6; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:28:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Y6SzDTJqC0uk; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:28:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0BD389A5; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:28:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA255C5; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:31:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks cc: "roll-ads\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <41982702-325D-43FA-A8CA-1466B2DBA777@cisco.com> References: <23854.1594056180@localhost> <41982702-325D-43FA-A8CA-1466B2DBA777@cisco.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 11:31:18 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Li Zhao \(liz3\) wrote: > For instance, we should switch to 8138 instance from border router one > by one in order to make millions of meters stable. > Meters MAY migrate from non-8138 instance to 8138 instance during the switch. > These meters should operate as leaves and wait for further operation > (maybe firmware upgrade). So you'd need a firmware upgrade before they could learn they need to be leaves. If you can eventually upgrade everything, then great. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8EXQIACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWt5wf+PLCOgf03F1qfxmued0NlwD0ieci4iiP34GY/1Iha9Afgajv4QehyPsge ZMWP3Ndf9ZhpUPsKQkpmutmIyiw54gwM6cyOYt3T7WMSlZ7jrKw+N6X2GebcIcLg TaFp5Fr08ssc+J9EHX3pRd2m24MAD9uu8wdmO2AjX8RLaqiD9MrpAbNqJfgT14VQ K4tOWWQyUTZlQlODneYgf5rZAFbkAKu2yRkVKr5nlKIlwcOXAAH+LhoYzr9sEVVh 4AdloBUov180kaB5z3J2cUFZYnELIgtjiBm913KWrN5gN4U0lpHVRqLR4yEvMdEB 7UhtOONufZS/zUl6TnAwr7TncMH36w== =HkHv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 7 04:32:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76FC33A0B82; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 04:32:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kdlt794Ps5hC; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 04:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39C293A0B80; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 04:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53686389A6; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:29:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id sE0lWZukTHc7; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83E35389A5; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D895C5; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:32:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks cc: "roll-ads\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <23854.1594056180@localhost>, X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 11:32:50 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Rahul Jadhav wrote: > The problem with these additional fields is that they will be > redundant once we have capabilities. > I feel we do not need to handle the case of "forgotten nodes". This. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8EXV4ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWE3Af+NYEL0hKEtQ6BXd+VYzbwVS9bMd1vwhvVkQHQha5gZeQHL4+v18bQkq+b p7MkeopGq7GaSFNMEmHLH9nQ56lFX0cnB1kv/aEYBnk2niWbe8My6CR55YPrB8C3 2oLisUkgTY3gKmmHCEjBpevOIxVxcEXHMXO3B4YItLm3SfyK0v7xAoEZdHTbYtwe YwHSSF1fuLP7HO2pJISDSDn/CmHzoZzDmuJkK+AEzLOl3CAeyxgcdScd8zeXeYu3 +JboLLuRxa0RSQngokO5tmCETa+12FMrSadURaVDcXa1BRminwpAC8HrCw8jl1ON 4U2ZPke/DYk3MK7kVh+UDWmjMK63Aw== =9t6c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 7 06:01:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D543A0C53; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 06:01:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ad081e3d-33c4-4533-d360-08d82275bee5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Jul 2020 13:00:38.0706 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: mlJ2vEc/K1XcRXJsxg0v8K2A1Zv9NaSAiw9J0tAknsc20vAU1U5BUrVgM8j3JD4Dg61iqDcZFQ9beqitVRbpdQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB3984 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.14, xch-aln-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 13:01:58 -0000 Hello Michael: > -----Original Message----- > From: Roll On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > Sent: mardi 7 juillet 2020 13:30 > To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks > Cc: roll-ads@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 >=20 >=20 > Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\) wrote= : > > This is really useful, many thanks for contributing. I'll need more > > from you and the WG, please see below; >=20 > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Roll On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > >> Sent: lundi 6 juillet 2020 19:23 > >> To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks ; 'ro= ll- > >> ads@tools.ietf.org' > >> Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 > >> > >> > >> Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\) > wrote: > >> > This takes us to 2) The above is why in the current text the lea= f that > >> > does not support the compression SHOULD act as a RUL, so it is a= n > >> > external target and thus the default for it is to decompress bef= ore > >> > forwarding. Alvaro and I are talking about MUSTing that, with th= e > >> > argument that a RUL supporting the RPL compression looks like an > >> > oxymoron. > >> > >> The problem is that this is a new rule (new code), and the point w= as to > allow > >> rfc8138 to be turned on without new code, right? >=20 > > The RUL text only applies to a node that would have some new code b= ut > > not the support for compression. >=20 > I think this is a unicorn :-) Hopefully >=20 > > True, a legacy node cannot obey that. Which means that we can force= it > > to be a leaf but we cannot force it to be a RUL. >=20 > How can we force it to be a leaf without using a new MOP? Scenario 1 introduces a new OCP. There's text in RFC 6550 to force nodes to= become leaves.=20 This is why I'd like to see if the use cases may require 1) but not 2) or s= omething. >=20 > >> This document is not supposed to accomodate old nodes: compression= is > either > >> supported on every node, or not yet supported on every node. >=20 > > Right. The document aims at enabling RFC 8138 in a brown field. The > > *normal* scenario is migrate slowly the nodes with the bit off and = when > > all are migrated turn the bit on. >=20 > This is the upgrading brownfield case. > (Youtube has taught me that there is no such colour as "Brown". It's alwa= ys > Dark Orange in context) So, let's call this the "orangefield case" Seems that we cannot use colours at all anymore anyway. Since I'm not nativ= e I'll take any word gracefully. >=20 > > The complex case is that of > > "forgotten nodes", e.g., nodes for which there was never a new code= for > > this draft and for the compression, to try to serve them still. Ima= gine > > a network where thousands of meters out of millions are from an old > > brand that can never be upgraded. Can we replace them? Probably not= . So > > do we live with the idea that the compression can never be turned o= n in > > the whole network? >=20 > I think that's the cost for having deployed things you can't upgrade :-) > -> "Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency for me" Since we are doing stuff for the current somewhat autumn field I'd like fee= dback on how that field is like. >=20 > But, I think that we can probably solve the case with capabilities, and p= ossibly > new MOP values, but I don't see how, if we assume there are nodes that ca= n > not get new code *AT ALL* that we can expect them to have a different > behaviour. >=20 > > That's the big question to the group, is that a valid use case. Bec= ause > > if it is, we do not want to have to do yet another draft do we? >=20 > I don't want this draft to solve it. > Just deal with orangefield case. >=20 > > Yes, in the normal scenario, the benefit of capabilities would be t= o > > ensure that all nodes are migrated. But if a node cannot be migrate= d, > > the capabilities can also tell the parent to uncompress when forwar= ding > > to this node. Life will be a lot simpler, though, if we mandate the > > support of the compression in RPLv2. That means no configuration bi= t, > > and no capabilities. Where's the best investment of code? >=20 > I think we need to design capabilities, we can deploy them with RPLv1, an= d > RPLv2 will simply be a marketing term that says the stack supports some s= et of > smarter capabilities by default. > I don't think we ever want a flag day. I meant, I'd rather invest code implementing RFC 8138 than code to express = the lack of capability to support it, and code to uncompress and recompress= in the neighbors. All in all it seems simpler that all MOP >7 support RFC 8138 as part of the= RPLv2 certification. Capabilities to, but no point wasting one for this. >=20 > >> I believe it is a misconfiguration (operator error) to turn on rfc= 8138 if > there are > >> nodes that do not support it. Just don't deal with that. >=20 > > That would drop both the work for 1) and 2). That would simplify th= e > > draft considerably. But we need to be careful, because if the case = of > > scattered untouchable meters is real then the compression can never= be > > turned on. >=20 > I think that we can turn compression on in parts of the network via capab= ilities, > but turnonrfc8138 was urgently needed for the orangefield situation. It was, but the autumn field has those nodes we do not want to hear about..= .. 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Tue, 7 Jul 2020 13:10:08 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks CC: "roll-ads@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 Thread-Index: AdZTplwpn8kqIWljTEmY8gxaq0eNOgAE7ywAAB1Nt/AAE3o0gP//qc0A///k+VA= Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 13:10:04 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 13:09:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <23854.1594056180@localhost> <41982702-325D-43FA-A8CA-1466B2DBA777@cisco.com> <25463.1594121474@localhost> In-Reply-To: <25463.1594121474@localhost> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2a01:cb1d:4ec:2200:eca9:28a7:a399:4cb7] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9a3493ae-c633-4214-0c5c-08d8227712a6 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB3998: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9a3493ae-c633-4214-0c5c-08d8227712a6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Jul 2020 13:10:08.0840 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: uLpCKfxIukD3XNCbxKJqmXW+b07iau0yXPD5a+U1B+8cViZ0gqS1IOqP4sO4p7MRbTJX97qyFUZO3qF/MK1Igw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB3998 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.14, xch-aln-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 13:10:14 -0000 >=20 > Li Zhao \(liz3\) wrote: > > For instance, we should switch to 8138 instance from border router= one > > by one in order to make millions of meters stable. > > Meters MAY migrate from non-8138 instance to 8138 instance during t= he > switch. > > These meters should operate as leaves and wait for further operatio= n > > (maybe firmware upgrade). >=20 > So you'd need a firmware upgrade before they could learn they need to be > leaves. If you can eventually upgrade everything, then great. >=20 Not really. Our step 1) uses RFC 6550 mandates. 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Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:07:12 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks CC: "roll-ads@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 Thread-Index: AdZTplwpn8kqIWljTEmY8gxaq0eNOgAE7ywAAB1Nt/AAAzcVcAAFinoAADNaULA= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:06:43 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:06:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <23854.1594056180@localhost>, <25892.1594121566@localhost> In-Reply-To: <25892.1594121566@localhost> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2a01:cb1d:4ec:2200:847b:6218:b64d:b996] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 22346a63-64c2-4dde-e4f7-08d823377261 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR11MB4103: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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What do you guys think? Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: Roll On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > Sent: mardi 7 juillet 2020 13:33 > To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks > Cc: roll-ads@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 >=20 >=20 > Rahul Jadhav wrote: > > The problem with these additional fields is that they will be > > redundant once we have capabilities. >=20 > > I feel we do not need to handle the case of "forgotten nodes". >=20 > This. >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works - > =3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 8 05:51:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0426A3A09E0; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 05:51:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:51:48 +0000 Received: from MAXPR01MB2493.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2a01:111:e400:7ebe::47) by PU1APC01FT013.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7ebe::78) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3174.21 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:51:47 +0000 Received: from MAXPR01MB2493.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::e874:bbdb:9f9e:9564]) by MAXPR01MB2493.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::e874:bbdb:9f9e:9564%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3153.029; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:51:47 +0000 From: Rahul Jadhav To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks CC: "roll-ads@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 Thread-Index: AdZTplwpn8kqIWljTEmY8gxaq0eNOgAE7ywAAB1Nt/AAAzcVcAAFinoAADNaULAAAN3F/Q== Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:51:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <23854.1594056180@localhost>, <25892.1594121566@localhost>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-IN, en-US Content-Language: en-IN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:9D2B6749FF238BB392005003DCB040C8AF01949E0F7A9C8ED597D2B0C1F28006; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1) remove it all; My primary reason to say "Remove it all" is even in the non-storing mode we= are dependent on 'E' bit to signal that the leaf node is RUL and does not = support compression and I find it not appropriate, even though I do not hav= e a scenario which will be impacted. If we decide for 2) then better keep it as a different Section (something l= ike "Handling 6LoRH unsupported nodes in Non-Storing mode") in the main tex= t (not appendix). ________________________________ From: Roll on behalf of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <= pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> Sent: 08 July 2020 05:36 PM To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks Cc: roll-ads@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 OK, so how do we proceed? 1) I could remove it all; Or 2) I could keep the second scenario in appendix and explain that in NS mode= we can use the compressed format to the penultimate hop. What do you guys think? Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: Roll On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > Sent: mardi 7 juillet 2020 13:33 > To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks > Cc: roll-ads@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 > > > Rahul Jadhav wrote: > > The problem with these additional fields is that they will be > > redundant once we have capabilities. > > > I feel we do not need to handle the case of "forgotten nodes". > > This. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works - > =3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > _______________________________________________ Roll mailing list Roll@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll --_000_MAXPR01MB24937729B58D622064207D26A9670MAXPR01MB2493INDP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
1) remove it all;

My primary reason to say "Remove it all" = is even in the non-storing mode we are dependent on 'E' bit to signal that = the leaf node is RUL and does not support compression and I find it not appropriate, even though I do not have a scenario which = will be impacted.

= If we decide for 2) then better keep it as a different Section (something like "Handling 6LoRH unsupported= nodes in Non-Storing mode") in the main text (not appendix).

From: Roll <roll-bounces= @ietf.org> on behalf of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=3D40cisco= .com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: 08 July 2020 05:36 PM
To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks <roll@ietf.org><= br> Cc: roll-ads@ietf.org <roll-ads@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07
 
OK, so how do we proceed?

1) I could remove it all;
Or
2) I could keep the second scenario in appendix and explain that in NS mode= we can use the compressed format to the penultimate hop.

What do you guys think?

Pascal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roll <roll-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Michael Richards= on
> Sent: mardi 7 juillet 2020 13:33
> To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks <roll@ietf.org> > Cc: roll-ads@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07
>
>
> Rahul Jadhav <nyrahul@outlook.com> wrote:
>     >  The problem with these additional f= ields is that they will be
>     >  redundant once we have capabilities= .
>
>     > I feel we do not need to handle the case = of "forgotten nodes".
>
> This.
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Softwa= re Works  -
> =3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>

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--_000_MAXPR01MB24937729B58D622064207D26A9670MAXPR01MB2493INDP_-- From nobody Wed Jul 8 07:29:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEAEF3A0C7B; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 07:28:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uCCUDLfjiW5w; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 07:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 159393A0C7A; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 07:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78235389A2; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 10:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Ck0oSQbv9m47; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 10:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDFAF389A1; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 10:26:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D282DA8; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 10:28:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks cc: "roll-ads\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <23854.1594056180@localhost>, <25892.1594121566@localhost>, X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 14:29:00 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Rahul Jadhav wrote: > 1) remove it all; +1 > My primary reason to say "Remove it all" is even in the non-storing mode we are dependent on 'E' bit to signal that the leaf node is RUL and does not support compression and I find it not appropriate, even though I do not have a scenario which will be impacted. > If we decide for 2) then better keep it as a different Section (something like "Handling 6LoRH unsupported nodes in Non-Storing mode") in the main text (not appendix). --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8F2CcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUQbwf/XFeUvrKIvO1YSdv+l4AN8DiYDaFEV3zB9cHih1CM3yqh06Oad8NYGk0r YdyX6EvO4KRvkOjHkwfm250whezlR/T7h4SeflT43nfTfX2lX15cIBpuHq7EV/S/ Lw+YMf48r6lncbDDvdS7WXqcoWhv0gTCzqPhlZvF7vAOm7dHCuPV/O0Sp+vSN75b U82wIPWnX4TuErvhbPoBBfV9VFzNITJLZiPFLlla5vtSHAuIm3Fewo74SjtFVqSE V+1Hye1vLp4z79E68aMbses9yebHqyJxvena9HF5SYFusXPOJAW+vXKiAgO3rTE9 Il4B5dRloOhMxN+x626TvlDv9R9mgg== =YLil -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Jul 8 08:42:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietf.org Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56AE73A0E50; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 08:42:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: roll@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.7.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: roll@ietf.org Message-ID: <159422292822.3103.8529240918482673236@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 08:42:08 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Roll] I-D Action: draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-08.txt X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 15:42:09 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks WG of the IETF. Title : A RPL DODAG Configuration Option for the 6LoWPAN Routing Header Authors : Pascal Thubert Li Zhao Filename : draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-08.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2020-07-08 Abstract: This document updates RFC 8138 and RFC 6550 by defining a bit in the RPL DODAG Configuration Option to indicate whether RFC 8138 compression is used within the RPL Instance, and specify the behavior of RFC 8138-capable nodes when the bit is set and reset. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-08 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-08 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-08 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jul 8 08:49:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 708773A0E8F; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 08:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=knuDM6hx; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=iNjRNcXA Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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15.20.3153.031; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 15:49:23 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks CC: "roll-ads@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 Thread-Index: AdZTplwpn8kqIWljTEmY8gxaq0eNOgAE7ywAAB1Nt/AAAzcVcAAFinoAADNaULAAAN3F/QAEOW2AAAK/cwA= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 15:49:19 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 15:48:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <23854.1594056180@localhost>, <25892.1594121566@localhost>, <23685.1594218535@localhost> In-Reply-To: <23685.1594218535@localhost> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2a01:cb1d:4ec:2200:847b:6218:b64d:b996] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 46fb3cf7-6db8-4762-f6c5-08d823567c74 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB3904: 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bh=kz7hk46FXLkiQRx8AuWwzwbm4Ts+hw9r3YYTX3t3qis=; b=Cha0KLuoBHEbJhavYDIQ4NdlayzZTz0kj+Ww1vZMPX2vyStaxV0JvzvupiH63jixuO QbLE5DQsnb0S+xp/QCHdRGSAtrcv24NkCM/RS3niwV8rmwZECUFxqG27BuPJOsfT0LMM +0yffiNBVsfSx/OSSqsTF/g9umh79AB3YOvmxUpLtil1JNfftGNrDYN1nuBLkzUQPDde IAsNDi5LVsH0KXYJ0LrsyKz48H4HRd/4OSHQcgNhrnn45jE0CVnl+FTPtqu04r3UkwWu WG1n4kp5jxq4H5j6RDhk7oa59LbaGSx5kdB5jdKlb1+y61F5QFy3DAN7OlKScg8B3Jg1 akFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533DRa1tNDBhWtYSYCMo0vIrlKK1k6+CAHM8vrOa8zh6v7YqPSml 1PQuCYFNgOEb6NhsttwiR8aeg3A2/s1UEKDj/LdyAcqCGtA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw4Wkf2J3NGZ4u+ODkS0heu4GZqRljDt9eGrBugG0GnnLTgKRde3QhJ5dFHo7hZEZvsKABPeQHuHor/tbmrfJ0= X-Received: by 2002:a67:ea84:: with SMTP id f4mr44092529vso.113.1594223734595; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 08:55:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <23854.1594056180@localhost> <25892.1594121566@localhost> In-Reply-To: From: Ines Robles Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 18:55:02 +0300 Message-ID: To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks Cc: "roll-ads@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000064a4cf05a9f0232d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 15:55:38 -0000 --00000000000064a4cf05a9f0232d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Pascal, Following my understanding, the action points are?: - Deleting reference to capabilities from Introduction and (section 4?, section 5.2? and section 5.3?) - Clarifying behaviour in SM and Non-SM: SM: Parent to child where child is RUL ( including RAL that does not understand compression MUST acts as a RUL )=> decompress Everywhere else => forward compressed (since it is assumed that intermediate routers supports compression) Non-SM: The default is to uncompress once the SRH is fully consumed. I understand that the ideal case would be turn on compression when all nodes support it, but in real use cases could be nodes not supporting it and must be part of the network anyway and the above it is to reflect how to act on those cases. Thank you in advance, Ines. On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 3:07 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > OK, so how do we proceed? > > 1) I could remove it all; > Or > 2) I could keep the second scenario in appendix and explain that in NS > mode we can use the compressed format to the penultimate hop. > > What do you guys think? > > Pascal > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Roll On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > > Sent: mardi 7 juillet 2020 13:33 > > To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks > > Cc: roll-ads@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 > > > > > > Rahul Jadhav wrote: > > > The problem with these additional fields is that they will be > > > redundant once we have capabilities. > > > > > I feel we do not need to handle the case of "forgotten nodes". > > > > This. > > > > -- > > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works - > > = IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Roll mailing list > Roll@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll > --00000000000064a4cf05a9f0232d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Pascal,

Following my understanding, = the action points are?:

- Deleting reference=C2=A0= to capabilities from Introduction and (section 4?, section 5.2? and section= 5.3?)
- Clarifying behaviour in SM and Non-SM:

SM:

<= span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Parent to child where child is RUL ( includin= g RAL=C2=A0 that does not understand compression MUST acts as a RUL )=3D>= ; decompress

Everywhere else = =3D> forward compressed (since it is assumed that intermediate routers s= upports compression)

=

Non-SM:

The default is to uncompre= ss once the SRH is fully consumed.=C2=A0

<= br>

I understand that the ideal case would be tur= n on compression when all nodes support it, but in real use cases could be = nodes not supporting it and must be part of the network anyway and the abov= e it is to reflect how to act on those cases.=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=

Thank you in advance,


=

Ines.


On Wed, = Jul 8, 2020 at 3:07 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote= :
OK, so how do = we proceed?

1) I could remove it all;
Or
2) I could keep the second scenario in appendix and explain that in NS mode= we can use the compressed format to the penultimate hop.

What do you guys think?

Pascal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roll <roll-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
> Sent: mardi 7 juillet 2020 13:33
> To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks <roll@ietf.org>
> Cc: roll-ads@ie= tf.org
> Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07
>
>
> Rahul Jadhav <nyrahul@outlook.com> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 The problem with these additional fields= is that they will be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 redundant once we have capabilities.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I feel we do not need to handle the case of &q= uot;forgotten nodes".
>
> This.
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0= -
> =3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>

_______________________________________________
Roll mailing list
Roll@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll
--00000000000064a4cf05a9f0232d-- From nobody Wed Jul 8 08:58:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E50D13A0E75; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 08:58:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=googlemail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QFuBlDyUFf7M; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 08:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2f.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 228CC3A0E5D; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 08:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2f.google.com with SMTP id m21so9071043vkp.1; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 08:58:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=q6W5a7TEgoHcHROrljhnQkU9wa+niEsYlBq1/pDaSPI=; b=IyJy+NhZiQ0hKCPXU9P9eqSfaNdM5gZC96oA4d7G5+2Y8if506ezAppel/YnvfXLYn P8TJBNpFRTygVw78zpd7SuJYAQjv8w0N1mrFuQQ02yz650wkFPuTqi8iiT3L2sObSMfp jJLXnVK/ww0U03wgueaQbK3oXdEAtAuKKci2QqbSwJoT2f0UdiqmYzEqkRK7ySkP3ah/ tu3ELjalnDq6+/ZYfvER7fdiZ2lQHDvH1OrpcgLfIxoBIWeW9i7tX+fXWlmMcx79J3Yh BTLypvamOmDMzZZbSpJnFTJI/a1mTeLHxl0i1ivvCxSfBh4lkjrQh/UEsAvMFTzWZ0Rw /M4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=q6W5a7TEgoHcHROrljhnQkU9wa+niEsYlBq1/pDaSPI=; b=s2FZdi+93iVyHNbvoe6YIC62dzboKiGxpKL0hF1eAogBS732NtKnwoPBg3AXlOlPXb 8tvBFnkb8rR5GXaHFUzoRYwwKQKXgSPIRr/udMMknIZVDZEGnCXnYh03JAy35wAUEbKp pJ/tHM7YnIQSpFH1qks+k9gjCtyulyRxniFXxiLoMOpMaxw0LQxD4rfyyy6/6wM8Pu7L U+D5LEwKRqWTGxjhcbXF+u81PlSYuLOTNAU4lmIbX97hvib4MqrxAXcn4pRtsm4/+FKv B+OQzhG41U8ucUj/7DuEF7ftP7kOApZZ4nkwCurGXBsJ5FKwNc6CpQyPluAQgh0fPtRq jCZA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5332SDSpqLQOvzHEEwkd/mO4JWyq+bJhUjOF1amZKc6xkH7Gi2/L lyepA4w8gbzYPUpcKnuJJQRtlmPspyn6ecLajj5M2e2h X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzFz/g1YiX8C64IHpzPVgqpjfvxU2qlK4ZbjD1UjaJ2wC6OgQ0ASV/Z2e7G9QsfXAwtp7/mo3XMlyl0ITpdFQU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:12a8:: with SMTP id j8mr18476051vkp.43.1594223891860; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 08:58:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <23854.1594056180@localhost> <25892.1594121566@localhost> In-Reply-To: From: Ines Robles Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 18:57:40 +0300 Message-ID: To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks Cc: "roll-ads@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c4755605a9f02c91" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 15:58:15 -0000 --000000000000c4755605a9f02c91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Ok, I got the new version, Thanks, On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:55 PM Ines Robles wrote: > Hi Pascal, > > Following my understanding, the action points are?: > > - Deleting reference to capabilities from Introduction and (section 4?, > section 5.2? and section 5.3?) > - Clarifying behaviour in SM and Non-SM: > > SM: > > Parent to child where child is RUL ( including RAL that does not > understand compression MUST acts as a RUL )=> decompress > > Everywhere else => forward compressed (since it is assumed that > intermediate routers supports compression) > > > Non-SM: > > The default is to uncompress once the SRH is fully consumed. > > > I understand that the ideal case would be turn on compression when all > nodes support it, but in real use cases could be nodes not supporting it > and must be part of the network anyway and the above it is to reflect how > to act on those cases. > > > > > > Thank you in advance, > > > Ines. > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 3:07 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> OK, so how do we proceed? >> >> 1) I could remove it all; >> Or >> 2) I could keep the second scenario in appendix and explain that in NS >> mode we can use the compressed format to the penultimate hop. >> >> What do you guys think? >> >> Pascal >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Roll On Behalf Of Michael Richardson >> > Sent: mardi 7 juillet 2020 13:33 >> > To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks >> > Cc: roll-ads@ietf.org >> > Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 >> > >> > >> > Rahul Jadhav wrote: >> > > The problem with these additional fields is that they will be >> > > redundant once we have capabilities. >> > >> > > I feel we do not need to handle the case of "forgotten nodes". >> > >> > This. >> > >> > -- >> > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works - >> > = IPv6 IoT consulting =- >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Roll mailing list >> Roll@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll >> > --000000000000c4755605a9f02c91 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok, I got the new version,

Thanks,

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:55 PM Ines Robles <mariainesrobles@googlemail.com> wrote:
Hi P= ascal,

Following my understanding, the action points are= ?:

- Deleting reference=C2=A0to capabilities from = Introduction and (section 4?, section 5.2? and section 5.3?)
- Cl= arifying behaviour in SM and Non-SM:

SM:

Parent to child where child is RUL ( including RAL=C2=A0 that does= not understand compression MUST acts as a RUL )=3D> decompress

Everywhere else =3D> forward compres= sed (since it is assumed that intermediate routers supports compression)=


Non-SM:

The default is to uncompress once the SRH is f= ully consumed.=C2=A0


I understand that the ideal case would be turn on compression whe= n all nodes support it, but in real use cases could be nodes not supporting= it and must be part of the network anyway and the above it is to reflect h= ow to act on those cases.=C2=A0


=C2=A0


Thank you in advance,


Ines.



On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 3:07= PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:=
OK, so how do w= e proceed?

1) I could remove it all;
Or
2) I could keep the second scenario in appendix and explain that in NS mode= we can use the compressed format to the penultimate hop.

What do you guys think?

Pascal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roll <roll-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
> Sent: mardi 7 juillet 2020 13:33
> To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks <roll@ietf.org>
> Cc: roll-ads@ie= tf.org
> Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07
>
>
> Rahul Jadhav <nyrahul@outlook.com> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 The problem with these additional fields= is that they will be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 redundant once we have capabilities.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I feel we do not need to handle the case of &q= uot;forgotten nodes".
>
> This.
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0= -
> =3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>

_______________________________________________
Roll mailing list
Roll@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll
--000000000000c4755605a9f02c91-- From nobody Wed Jul 8 12:56:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0504F3A0772 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:56:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nOrofiAxZ0Xl for ; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 010253A02C1 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FE13899F; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 15:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 6lWMGkQtMPBJ; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 15:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B64438999; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 15:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C41A8; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 15:56:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Pascal Thubert , roll@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <23854.1594056180@localhost>, <25892.1594121566@localhost>, <23685.1594218535@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 19:56:47 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Is there a github for this that I don't remember? I am looking at the diff. Thank for the changes. There is a typo at: /[RFC6550] states, [RFC6550] states, when referring to the DODAG If the root speaks RFC8138, but not turnon, and there are nodes which support turnon and RFC8138, and the bit is missing, then 8138 won't get turned on, right? So the root is just another node which has to upgrade to support turnon, right? -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8GJPkACgkQgItw+93Q 3WULjwf/Tv0qmgrP7yAHmWJX43UJokVXY9epRdqIKJi2zJZ5sPeRW9XMQcHHdkH/ bMf3rn564j3SeGw2KVs4K6qtfccj8NjwG/KmuRcIopKWoFOW7VNJjiD+JyUl6RvQ sAieWtuHZmKMrquAu5GnqUWDOFse27Je1IbLnqB4SceaBtA0ilKk5VxrORd8Qlfy JpIfydHyOrkWe9DpJdJQ4keVE9tQ3Wg7aD0EN9tfQLHCgjjYE7IKkjaP4/FeI/SO RpCojYhCn/4zNC6FJlU/VZN3sw3r/Zhy7lW9IVjUSZq310GuI2kBxACZD/1UGN6h TPWzfEehjO9yK9xt+8Kg+3Mm0A0epw== =fgNh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Jul 8 13:19:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 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15.20.3153.031; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 20:18:53 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Michael Richardson CC: "roll@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Roll] Alvaro's review on turnon Rfc 8138 07 Thread-Index: AdZTplwpn8kqIWljTEmY8gxaq0eNOgAE7ywAAB1Nt/AAAzcVcAAFinoAADNaULAAAN3F/QAEOW2AAAK/cwAACLMDgAAAxnrM Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 20:18:53 +0000 Message-ID: <404E3FB1-D6BF-49A4-8330-5BAC33682C6A@cisco.com> References: <23854.1594056180@localhost>, <25892.1594121566@localhost>, <23685.1594218535@localhost> , <9849.1594238201@localhost> In-Reply-To: <9849.1594238201@localhost> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2a01:cb1d:4ec:2200:d08d:d827:68b3:fa33] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c453acca-84a7-4b27-1948-08d8237c2267 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: 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X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 19:10:25 -0000 On July 9, 2020 at 10:38:29 AM, Pascal Thubert wrote: Pascal: Hi! ... > We decided to stick he *normal* scenario is migrate slowly the nodes with > the bit off and when all are migrated turn the bit on. The complex case i= s > that of "forgotten nodes", e.g., nodes for which there was never a new co= de > for this draft and for the compression, to try to serve them still. We > decided no to handle that case. They will have to be decommissioned or > maintained in a legacy network. > > Bottom line is that the simplification removes the text to turn "forgotte= n > nodes" into leaves and any special knowledge of the leave support in this > specification. Which removes a number of the pain points that you raised. I think that the simplification is a good thing! :-) ... > > (3) =C2=A73 says that ""T" flag is defined only for MOP value between 0= to 6". > > The current registry is not set up for this type of assignment, so it > > needs to be updated (see more specifics below). > > Basically added text in IANA section to make all flags " defined only for > MOP value between 0 to 6" I've been thinking about this some more, and I think we're getting into putting-the-cart-before-the-horse [1] territory. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cart_before_the_horse There's no special meaning assigned to MOP =3D 7, yet. =C2=A0This document talks about it because you (the WG, etc.) already know about the future intent. =C2=A0But that has not been specified anywhere, and there are no other specifics about that change here...nor should there be. IOW, I'm thinking that instead of changing the registry in this document, we should leave it as is and make no statement as to which MOPs the new flag applies to. =C2=A0That explanation will come later when the RPLv2 work is done -- we can go into the details at that time. This should simplify more. =C2=A0Thoughts? ... > > ... > > 11 Abstract ... The Abstract still says that the document Updates rfc6550: Suggestion> =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document updates RFC 8138 by defining a bit in the RPL DO= DAG =C2=A0 =C2=A0Configuration Option to indicate whether compression is used w= ithin the =C2=A0 =C2=A0RPL Instance, and specify the behavior of when the bit is set = and reset. ... > 3. The RPL DODAG Configuration Option ... The text in this section says that "The new "T" flag is encoded in one of the reserved bits in the RPL DODAG Configuration Option." [] s/"T" flag is encoded in one of the reserved bits/"T" flag is encoded in the Flags field ... > > 244 5.1. Inconsistent State While Migrating ... > > 250 Some nodes will see the flag and start sourcing packets in the > > 251 compressed form while other nodes in the same RPL Instance are stil= l > > 252 not aware of it. Conversely, in non-storing mode, the Root will > > 253 start using [RFC8138] with a Source Routing Header 6LoRH (SRH-6LoRH= ) > > 254 that routes all the way to the parent router or to the leaf. > > > > [minor] I don't understand how the second sentence reverses > > ("Conversely") the statement in the first sentence...or how the mode > > affects the outcome of nodes (including the Root) sending compressed > > packets when others may not still be aware of the flag or able to suppo= rt > > receiving the packets... > > I forgot to re-fix that one after the major change. The conversely was > opposing storing vs. non storing. Any suggestion? Just start with "In storing mode...", and take "conversely" out. ;-) > > [minor] "[RFC8138] with a Source Routing Header 6LoRH (SRH-6LoRH)" > > sounds redundant. Also, this is the only place in the document where th= e > > use of rfc8138 is coupled with the SRH-6LoRH. Not wrong, just redundant= and > > inconsistent. If needed, the sentence can be restructured. > > Well, that's probably our only discrepancy. The SRH66LoRH (compressed IPv= 6 > RH type 3, really) is specific to the Root and to non-storing. It shows > packets could fly with the compression as soon as the root knows the bit = is > set and way before the nodes are aware of it. The next sentence is > " > To ensure that a packet is forwarded across the RPL DODAG in the form > in which it was generated, it is required that all the RPL nodes > support [RFC8138] at the time of the switch. > > " > > > I can reword if that leaves confusion and would appreciate suggestions. Let's leave is at is. ... > 5.3. Rolling Back [major] The last sentence in the last paragraph changed from "used as a leaf" to "used as a RUL"...the "MUST" makes the reference for RUL Normative. =C2=A0If you don't want UNAWARE-LEAVES to be Normative, then change it back. I'll wait for one more update before starting the IETF Last Call. Thanks! Alvaro. 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LUxFQVZFUyB0byBiZSBOb3JtYXRpdmUsIHRoZW4NCj4gY2hhbmdlIGl0IGJhY2suDQo+IA0KPiAN Cj4gSSdsbCB3YWl0IGZvciBvbmUgbW9yZSB1cGRhdGUgYmVmb3JlIHN0YXJ0aW5nIHRoZSBJRVRG IExhc3QgQ2FsbC4NCj4gDQo+IFRoYW5rcyENCj4gDQo+IEFsdmFyby4NCg== From nobody Mon Jul 20 16:59:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179403A11D7; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 16:59:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id trdR0R66VVfU; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 16:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A3713A11D4; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 16:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAED338A06; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 19:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id ajvI4qy-Psgn; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 19:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B702D38A02; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 19:38:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC43676; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 19:58:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" cc: Alvaro Retana , "draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138\@ietf.org" , "roll-chairs\@ietf.org" , Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks In-Reply-To: <89455B04-F268-4F4B-9A02-94830389ADE0@cisco.com> References: , <89455B04-F268-4F4B-9A02-94830389ADE0@cisco.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] AD Review of draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 23:59:04 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > We do not know what mop>7 will be. We do not say that this flag will > not be valid. We say that we do not know if it is valid either. So what > we want is an implementation of today should process the bit only if > the mop is less than 7. We want code now to protect the future so the > flag can reused. What Pascal said. We talked about this in both Montreal and Singapore, I think. (I think that the WG would otherwise be very hesistant to let these flags go) At the same time, while I think that we are rapidly approaching the need for an "RPLv2", I think we need a fair bit more energy to get it done. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8WL8IACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUXqAgAgvJK5/heiPKamp8pClH9ReAnYpa5vdTEXcjeuIavQVJ72fYT1YBmoau8 Sfp+SDdm/bwe8q12qmrWtXjHybqG6PysXOuDE/quhSb0DMruQPYJd6JKkN32yFVw 8unkwOdRqozijTGIArizs7OOPNMvT+cwRGELma/4gqR3rjIbqbIhlUZvDgoduS77 L4oKyD+1Cffos+E4gF9ASS+XSiWqJM6Z6CWtD+WOqfIKIL5WZZg2t9exKZnwc1ia +KVdd11hACW4XsCfBTBJEmBqBn/I39i6yxe+K8+7o/O6wYAWWrl7LEwR1B+f8Ozs PTdnfdyuW1Lagf5KycIhU2f01GUPGw== =qL2W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 21 02:53:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from 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15.20.3195.025; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 10:03:50 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks Thread-Topic: Default setting for config flags after MOP 7. 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X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 10:03:55 -0000 Dear all: During Alvaro's review, another point was raised for which we need a group = consensus. We said repeatedly that the turnon flag is defined only for MOPs < 7. This = is also true for the "RPI 0x23 enable" flag defined in useofrplinfo. So we are asking implementation to check that the MOP is less than 7 before= they use the flag and only use it in that case. But then, when it finds a MOP that is >=3D 7, what should the code that we = write today do? For one thing RFC 6550 makes it a leaf.=20 But what about the RFC 8138 compression and the RPI 0x23? For both bits, the assumption would be that the probation phase has ended a= nd that implementations have migrated. This means that after MOP 7 the default is that RFC 8138 is turned on, and = that Option Type in the RPL option is 0x23. Do we agree? Pascal From nobody Tue Jul 21 06:18:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C6C93A0815 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 06:18:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TEihHa86E2mO for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 06:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 925823A0805 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 06:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E905A389C9 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:57:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 6GCHo1z0QJ1T for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EBBE389B5 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D148F3F for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 09:18:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Default setting for config flags after MOP 7. X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 13:18:17 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\) wrote: > But then, when it finds a MOP that is >= 7, what should the code that > we write today do? For one thing RFC 6550 makes it a leaf. > But what about the RFC 8138 compression and the RPI 0x23? So, it would find that MOP=7, and there was a MOPEX which it did not understand? Yes, as a RPL aware leaf maybe? It should be able to send DAOs, right? Well, but it might not know where to send them, not knowing if it is in storing or non-storing. > For both bits, the assumption would be that the probation phase has > ended and that implementations have migrated. {yes, and some old hardware has been turned back on. Maybe it will upgrade over the air...} > This means that after MOP 7 the default is that RFC 8138 is turned on, > and that Option Type in the RPL option is 0x23. Yes, I agree. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8W6xQACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXxygf/TESLieRISNQeuEQIfdbWb0e50zXSADQicZn7IpqhxFqIl7+uxMfw1vKp dljNCRG/9dxTnUdQ7eDmiqpxAqpK4LGn0VFOjqfM/14N+ikUj1nhnA76my7gU/dC uv5ZH7Tx/SH3JntHyuvUOYJ/I+Y/6ZfsveDIrpYLEF3BG5ihhNi4UU3D4SKYSfSE CeADjY/7i2pKlxFowYtSPqc5srNqMxOrdwbaiVWz0INtf1/vPDJkA3Aie0ReeTzR 6SHqoTTgZjxuV/tTNLXNW0pvp6b97tfIEiwjzxyQqd6xp8OjkK7lgs8OTqKNAB2g Ey6CNvZ8bqvMx4gOSwDOqqbXKwCOhw== =Zc9o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 21 06:47:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB0F03A08AB for ; 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Tue, 21 Jul 2020 13:47:50 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks Thread-Topic: [Roll] Default setting for config flags after MOP 7. 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X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 13:47:55 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Roll On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > Sent: mardi 21 juillet 2020 15:18 > To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks > Subject: Re: [Roll] Default setting for config flags after MOP 7. >=20 >=20 > Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\) wrote= : > > But then, when it finds a MOP that is >=3D 7, what should the code = that > > we write today do? For one thing RFC 6550 makes it a leaf. > > But what about the RFC 8138 compression and the RPI 0x23? >=20 > So, it would find that MOP=3D7, and there was a MOPEX which it did not > understand? > Yes, as a RPL aware leaf maybe? It should be able to send DAOs, right? > Well, but it might not know where to send them, not knowing if it is in s= toring > or non-storing. True, the MOP may be even yet another thingy. RUL is the safest bet, but at= the time of RFC 6550 RULs did not exist so we said leaf. The current text has language to MUST RUL operation when not supporting RFC= 8138 and the flag is set. " It is RECOMMENDED to only deploy nodes that support [RFC8138] in a network where the compression is turned on. A node that does not support [RFC8138] MUST only be used as a RUL. " The same should be recommended for a non-understood MOP, as opposed to leaf= only.=20 But that's for a RFC-6550-update not this spec I guess... >=20 > > For both bits, the assumption would be that the probation phase has > > ended and that implementations have migrated. >=20 > {yes, and some old hardware has been turned back on. Maybe it will upgrad= e > over the air...} >=20 > > This means that after MOP 7 the default is that RFC 8138 is turned = on, > > and that Option Type in the RPL option is 0x23. >=20 > Yes, I agree. Many thanks, Michael Pascal >=20 > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh netwo= rks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architec= t [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails= [ >=20 >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works - > =3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Jul 21 08:03:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB91E3A0B1A; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:03:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3YZJ2N-_zaX0; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x430.google.com (mail-wr1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F7423A0B19; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x430.google.com with SMTP id s10so21479223wrw.12; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:03:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Et/KQVFkRqn7QYEFp+thimW+ipX3ydVn9+RNT7nLW2w=; b=C03e30KRY9pNsYMC6KuZPyUvIoXuR/0oq71RKlMgUOPW3nboly6aYxQaRs15KfWSn7 aFWSGxVSTO/P9aZLh3/kGLOg2s/tTEt0kl52BDRIor/DJrXL0Dn6LBHAKVHokVRBrnJ7 fWBqOwYyseqk5Pua4ePmwqy4Kgh861tEgYYHv8+d5HrCw2RsfJNSmxnkEfE2nXsbyyKT MJHmeij2viJ+PFcMXE3EkoxKT/Be0ab3wH3vV6nRym4lQuPsBsaGkz9Oh8AWWqK6MbWC El2XNUfb8NwQVbwavQdnZHzr+kOOQuux6+gZJIzIzlJPZYBoc2KoJnYQacyxSNHqvTFW GhTg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Et/KQVFkRqn7QYEFp+thimW+ipX3ydVn9+RNT7nLW2w=; b=ryERxaRQ4hPzXPL7eN18kyoWiD3xx7L5DAWUChQLIZCc6UZtyVKsebhkkyiLFFhkA9 2zrDnAnvcPw7k1/lWwerCLemDTOPYO5BItvzQnxjAc5sG4EN/vdj0Z4T0uutq5Bo6Wvk IC/zR7athIHpCN1uP7REDkkN1anIbpHkxKnDEYSeqPSEuCAzF2aSithJboVS6WVDclb2 hmZhOO2ACeohNWwocK4gcItaEu0V4JghufawWctHwrJJYMbxHpCoCo4Z5XrbiyQJuQ2N Tu8DFx2K2R33RUue1NQC5dVgZRr309bO3R59exAJOW6yOzGLqMbTwgZwEdo/j3PsBO2w 1bOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530m7m0WYo5oLAnVaM9jVEdzA7bH3orhpHTlPkQUMQTx5TasDk7b pd/9fkfC5WvgdFzL/+s13GA8hMzXUpwnRLeZkYG5Zs45 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJ062LB+HDFqGIXIhFCSmK48G9OkTp5wTS0NW4Sh+YBX3wxNWqhn0v45OzvrWdMr42mhqO0KLpp54Khp0e4Ko= X-Received: by 2002:adf:b30c:: with SMTP id j12mr10126858wrd.420.1595343820788; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 11:03:40 -0400 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 11:03:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138@ietf.org" Cc: "roll-chairs@ietf.org" , Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] AD Review of draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 15:03:44 -0000 On July 21, 2020 at 5:53:53 AM, Pascal Thubert wrote: Pascal: Hi! ... > Agreed for the registry part. > All we want is to say that the code should check for MOP<7 before it uses > the flag. > To prepare for this the current draft onlyt changes the name of the > registry as below. Changing the name of the registry will result in having to Update the other documents that have option flags because they don't include a limitation. =C2=A0It would also probably require an additional registry for MOP >=3D 7...just for completeness. =C2=A0By the time we're done with that justification we're already half way to RLPv2 -- in this document! Let's leave the registry unchanged. > " > 6. IANA Considerations > > IANA is requested to assign a new option flag from the Registry for > the "DODAG Configuration Option Flags" that was created for [RFC6550] > as follows: > > +---------------+---------------------------------+-----------+ > | Bit Number | Capability Description | Reference | > +---------------+---------------------------------+-----------+ > | 2 (suggested) | Turn on RFC8138 Compression (T) | THIS RFC | > +---------------+---------------------------------+-----------+ > > Table 1: New DODAG Configuration Option Flag > > The DODAG Configuration Option Flags defined so far will be obsolete > for RPL Mode of Operation (MOP) above and including 7. > > IANA is requested to update the name of the Registry from "DODAG > Configuration Option Flags" to "DODAG Configuration Option Flags for > RPL MOP 0..6". > > When MOP values of 7 and more are defined, a new registry will be > needed. > " > > Should I remove the text after the table or is it OK? Yes, please. > > This should simplify more. Thoughts? > > > > > > Please keep in mind that we want the core written today to disregard the > flag (I guess that means use a default that is TBD) for MOP >=3D 7. Said = this > way, we still need text, and we need to define the default. I suspect it > should be "ON" but I need to check with the ML. This default won't be in this document, right? ... > > The Abstract still says that the document Updates rfc6550: > > > > Suggestion> > > This document updates RFC 8138 by defining a bit in the RPL DODAG > > Configuration Option to indicate whether compression is used within the > > RPL Instance, and specify the behavior of when the bit is set and reset= . > > > > > > Did you mean > " > This document updates RFC 8138 by defining a bit in the RPL DODAG > Configuration Option to indicate whether compression is used within the > RPL Instance, and specify the behavior of RFC 8138-capable nodes > when the bit is set and reset. > > " > > ? Sure. Thanks! Alvaro. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 16:07:34 -0000 On July 21, 2020 at 11:24:53 AM, Pascal Thubert wrote: ... > > > Please keep in mind that we want the core written today to disregard > > > the flag (I guess that means use a default that is TBD) for MOP >=3D = 7. > > > Said this way, we still need text, and we need to define the default. > > > I suspect it should be "ON" but I need to check with the ML. > > > > This default won't be in this document, right? > > > > > > It needs to be. The problem is that people will write the code now. We as= k > them to do > > If mop < 7 > If "T" use compression > Else do not use compression > Else > Oups, what should I do here? > > We need to provide them with the else specification. > I launched a thread and so far we confirmed that the code should be like: > > If mop < 7 > If "T" use compression > Else do not use compression > Else > use compression > > Is there an issue with this? =C2=A73: =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 6.3.1. =C2=A0of [RFC6550] defines a 3-bit Mode of Oper= ation (MOP) =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the DIO Base Object. =C2=A0The new "T" flag is defined only= for MOP =C2=A0 =C2=A0value between 0 to 6. The piece that is really giving me a hard time is that the "flag is defined only for MOP...". =C2=A0Given the logic above, in reality the flag is defined for all the MOPs, they just behave differently. Suggestion> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 6.3.1 of [RFC6550] defines a 3-bit Mode of Operation (= MOP) =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the DIO Base Object. =C2=A0For MOP values 0 to 6, the use o= f compression is =C2=A0 =C2=A0as specified in this document. =C2=A0A MOP value of 7 MUST use= compression by =C2=A0 =C2=A0default and ignore the setting of the =E2=80=9CT=E2=80=9D flag= . ?? Alvaro. 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Tue, 21 Jul 2020 10:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 13:48:45 -0400 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 13:48:45 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138@ietf.org" Cc: "roll-chairs@ietf.org" , Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] AD Review of draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:48:50 -0000 On July 21, 2020 at 12:25:53 PM, Pascal Thubert wrote: > Please note that we must do the same change in useofrplinfo for the 0x23 > enable flag. Yup. > The result is visible in github at https://github.com/roll-wg/roll-turnon- > rfc8138 > I cannot publish during the cutoff but I'll do it first thing next week? ok > Please let me know if there's anything else. I think we're done. :-) Thanks!! Alvaro. From nobody Mon Jul 27 07:29:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietf.org Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03223A1A7A; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 07:29:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: roll@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.10.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: roll@ietf.org Message-ID: <159586016661.2214.4141793923910015842@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 07:29:26 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Roll] I-D Action: draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-09.txt X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 14:29:33 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks WG of the IETF. Title : A RPL DODAG Configuration Option for the 6LoWPAN Routing Header Authors : Pascal Thubert Li Zhao Filename : draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-09.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2020-07-27 Abstract: This document updates RFC 8138 by defining a bit in the RPL DODAG Configuration Option to indicate whether compression is used within the RPL Instance, and specify the behavior of RFC 8138-capable nodes when the bit is set and reset. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-09 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 26b32297-6d5a-4e99-c9dc-08d83239b2fb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Jul 2020 14:31:06.9835 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: kNVhcCqhvx2nmxbfuOksD4ialWisIix/6PqXCg6oSh/laqInk49E1bE2NC84ZS73TfssPuwjAV9JjPKsZWhoRw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB3693 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.11, xch-aln-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] AD Review of draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-07 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 14:32:49 -0000 UHVibGlzaGVkIPCfmIoNCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBB bHZhcm8gUmV0YW5hIDxhcmV0YW5hLmlldGZAZ21haWwuY29tPg0KPiBTZW50OiBtYXJkaSAyMSBq dWlsbGV0IDIwMjAgMTk6NDkNCj4gVG86IFBhc2NhbCBUaHViZXJ0IChwdGh1YmVydCkgPHB0aHVi ZXJ0QGNpc2NvLmNvbT47IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtcm9sbC10dXJub24tDQo+IHJmYzgxMzhAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCj4gQ2M6IHJvbGwtY2hhaXJzQGlldGYub3JnOyBSb3V0aW5nIE92ZXIgTG93IHBvd2VyIGFu ZCBMb3NzeSBuZXR3b3Jrcw0KPiA8cm9sbEBpZXRmLm9yZz4NCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUkU6IEFEIFJl dmlldyBvZiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLXJvbGwtdHVybm9uLXJmYzgxMzgtMDcNCj4gDQo+IE9uIEp1bHkg MjEsIDIwMjAgYXQgMTI6MjU6NTMgUE0sIFBhc2NhbCBUaHViZXJ0IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gPiBQ bGVhc2Ugbm90ZSB0aGF0IHdlIG11c3QgZG8gdGhlIHNhbWUgY2hhbmdlIGluIHVzZW9mcnBsaW5m byBmb3IgdGhlDQo+ID4gMHgyMyBlbmFibGUgZmxhZy4NCj4gDQo+IFl1cC4NCj4gDQo+ID4gVGhl IHJlc3VsdCBpcyB2aXNpYmxlIGluIGdpdGh1YiBhdA0KPiA+IGh0dHBzOi8vZ2l0aHViLmNvbS9y b2xsLXdnL3JvbGwtdHVybm9uLQ0KPiA+IHJmYzgxMzgNCj4gPiBJIGNhbm5vdCBwdWJsaXNoIGR1 cmluZyB0aGUgY3V0b2ZmIGJ1dCBJJ2xsIGRvIGl0IGZpcnN0IHRoaW5nIG5leHQgd2Vlaz8NCj4g DQo+IG9rDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gPiBQbGVhc2UgbGV0IG1lIGtub3cgaWYgdGhlcmUncyBhbnl0aGlu ZyBlbHNlLg0KPiANCj4gSSB0aGluayB3ZSdyZSBkb25lLiA6LSkNCj4gDQo+IFRoYW5rcyEhDQo+ IA0KPiBBbHZhcm8uDQo= From nobody Mon Jul 27 09:17:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietf.org Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870AE3A1C6D; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:17:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.10.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk CC: draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138@ietf.org, roll-chairs@ietf.org, Ines Robles , aretana.ietf@gmail.com, mariainesrobles@googlemail.com, roll@ietf.org Reply-To: last-call@ietf.org Sender: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <159586665846.17093.3826118387757440904@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:17:38 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Roll] Last Call: (A RPL DODAG Configuration Option for the 6LoWPAN Routing Header) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 16:17:45 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks WG (roll) to consider the following document: - 'A RPL DODAG Configuration Option for the 6LoWPAN Routing Header' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2020-08-18. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This document updates RFC 8138 by defining a bit in the RPL DODAG Configuration Option to indicate whether compression is used within the RPL Instance, and specify the behavior of RFC 8138-capable nodes when the bit is set and reset. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Wed Jul 29 00:58:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D323A0D22 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:58:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XX9SdPt8tgzY for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x536.google.com (mail-ed1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3278C3A0D23 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x536.google.com with SMTP id di22so9533837edb.12 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:58:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ChF7aEqsZIXY2H8/bFzcieJVA7UgY0rIRA9x3hYr25A=; b=afZHYO8uLanJO5AKvB5CWydQRnKEHv8q/FZExObfQy+8YQ5azK3EjtMLIfH8DoKO4f +CVVGbeA+F/kW/uQqMw7vW/TLWU74nS95wdaHOvRG0iYZOd4SLSG9yK8EXm4+ZKmIq9M cpYehAHoDMicqsmQ56x0Iw8dP++elssX6ZgQ0rc/ix4oz96turHmo7XYsathx8zrQYJx OQPpJdUGk+/NQxlX/JosotC8LVZx0g7tvwS8TnKQZxJuuKvZ1hWjfCNw4wwO5mwckGHK mVfcyTWKxVPQ+BnXkWzbX5wRiyHCVQJU42Vf/lsAN4TbpgkH7ILXvyVtRa2AaTzsKqEl 7khQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ChF7aEqsZIXY2H8/bFzcieJVA7UgY0rIRA9x3hYr25A=; b=IVBaq38Q24si7k94+YIWB4MFQf97KGw2//EKYALZFhf+m/wmi96xD9botM1uq8694W mcrJqFHB/UPpsxxbf1N/8GtwjC184H05I2QEJn91LMAmCVlEeJm22UH7u8BrZ9Cvu2Hv eMo7JvowBS2OJZJ24fRr++CxBB+QTPiSn4FKxPagcuWT9VhLsgEbAF1rhJ/0gGK65vPe j9xEp7yB+yJZwuKh7k6o8zl1nnlgr6cHrL6RpJkKeQjquTgJJX7FP5wk3wmdA8oQtV0m nzvUD0KrOXjyfbB+FuNYimk23N3qoU3cbuKTLEfnfbV7lvyW/Y2z+gnonk2NTsrLIdba N0dg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532FUSv1htFYdcrNQl3P3CAu97/jLc+nGXzMLmpdon1smXM9grfW /rjAb1UCYASV7dfEDpv4RGHycHzfMfdQZGf86E7AmzlL X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyFTbzBTCfYzYWLkQuc295TJyV5eLEUTf68kC2lUg1Z0Lea0z+JpKFNXdPoQMmAYdYESanl1X5B0TnB2wJqOgA= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:dd15:: with SMTP id i21mr16335891edv.153.1596009534540; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:58:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rahul Jadhav Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 13:28:43 +0530 Message-ID: To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005d517f05ab8fed26" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Roll] Default setting for config flags after MOP 7. X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 07:58:58 -0000 --0000000000005d517f05ab8fed26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Sorry for the late reply. But for the record, I agree that 6lorh be turned on by default for RFC6550-update and also 0x23 be the only option type used for RPI (obsoleting 0x63). Should we also start a thread listing all the mandates that RFC6550-update might do? Regards, Rahul On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 at 15:34, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Dear all: > > During Alvaro's review, another point was raised for which we need a group > consensus. > > We said repeatedly that the turnon flag is defined only for MOPs < 7. This > is also true for the "RPI 0x23 enable" flag defined in useofrplinfo. > > So we are asking implementation to check that the MOP is less than 7 > before they use the flag and only use it in that case. > > But then, when it finds a MOP that is >= 7, what should the code that we > write today do? For one thing RFC 6550 makes it a leaf. > But what about the RFC 8138 compression and the RPI 0x23? > > For both bits, the assumption would be that the probation phase has ended > and that implementations have migrated. > This means that after MOP 7 the default is that RFC 8138 is turned on, and > that Option Type in the RPL option is 0x23. > > Do we agree? > > Pascal > > _______________________________________________ > Roll mailing list > Roll@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll > --0000000000005d517f05ab8fed26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry for=C2=A0the late reply. But for th= e record, I agree that 6lorh be turned on by default for RFC6550-update and= also 0x23 be the only option type used for RPI (obsoleting 0x63).
Should we also start a thread listing all the mandates that RFC6550-u= pdate might do?

Regards,
Rahul

=
On Tue, 21= Jul 2020 at 15:34, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Dear all:

During Alvaro's review, another point was raised for which we need a gr= oup consensus.

We said repeatedly that the turnon flag is defined only for MOPs < 7. Th= is is also true for the "RPI 0x23 enable" flag defined in useofrp= linfo.

So we are asking implementation to check that the MOP is less than 7 before= they use the flag and only use it in that case.

But then, when it finds a MOP that is >=3D 7, what should the code that = we write today do? For one thing RFC 6550 makes it a leaf.
But what about the RFC 8138 compression and the RPI 0x23?

For both bits, the assumption would be that the probation phase has ended a= nd that implementations have migrated.
This means that after MOP 7 the default is that RFC 8138 is turned on, and = that Option Type in the RPL option is 0x23.

Do we agree?

Pascal

_______________________________________________
Roll mailing list
Roll@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll
--0000000000005d517f05ab8fed26-- From nobody Wed Jul 29 06:22:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietf.org Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893023A0B81; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 06:22:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?b?TWFsacWhYSBWdcSNaW5pxIcgdmlhIERhdGF0cmFja2Vy?= To: Cc: draft-ietf-roll-useofrplinfo.all@ietf.org, roll@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.11.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159602896040.32219.18351168129491497436@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: =?utf-8?b?TWFsacWhYSBWdcSNaW5pxIc=?= Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 06:22:40 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Roll] Iotdir telechat review of draft-ietf-roll-useofrplinfo-40 X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 13:22:46 -0000 Reviewer: Mališa Vučinić Review result: Ready with Issues As part of the IoT-Directorate review process, I went through draft-ietf-roll-useofrplinfo-40. In general, I believe the document is ready to proceed once a couple of issues that I outline below are resolved. I have concerns whether the use of the normative language is appropriate in the use cases section. I believe all such cases are covered either in the sections updating RFC 6553, RFC 6550 and RFC 8138 or in these respective RFCs. Please consider using lowercase keywords in Section 6. As a minor note, there also appears to be an inconsistent use of the IP6-IP6 acronym. Please use a single acronym throughout the doc, currently a mix of IPv6-in-IPv6 and IP6-IP6 is present. My detailed comments are given below. Section 1: > Since some of the uses cases here described, use IPv6-in-IPv6 encapsulation. It MUST take in consideration, when encapsulation is applied, the RFC6040 [RFC6040], which defines how the explicit congestion notification (ECN) field of the IP header should be constructed on entry to and exit from any IPV6-in-IPV6 tunnel. - Please clarify the sentence. Consider whether it is appropriate to have a normative MUST here. Section 4.2: > The non-storing mode case does not require the type change from 0x63 to 0x23, as the root can always create the right packet. The type change does not adversely affect the non-storing case. - It is not clear what RPI option type should non-storing networks use. A pointer to the discussion in Section 4.3 would be useful. Section 4.4: > A node that is decompressing this header MUST decompress using the RPI Option Type that is currently active: that is, a choice between 0x23 (new) and 0x63 (old). The node will know which to use based upon the presence of the flag in the DODAG Configuration option defined in Section 4.3. E.g. If the network is in 0x23 mode (by DIO option), then it should be decompressed to 0x23. - If my understanding is correct, this means that in order to decompress data plane packets, a node first needs to remember the option type mode the network is operating in, advertised in DIOs. Consequently, decompression is not possible before at least one DIO is received. Section 6: > The RPI MUST be present in every single RPL data packet. - How is the normative text here appropriate at this point? Is this not redundant with RFC6553? > This document assumes that the LLN is using the no-drop RPI Option Type (0x23). - This statement appears twice in the document and is as such redundant. please remove one appearance. Section 8: > The root always have to encapuslate on the way down - It is not clear how come does root need to always encapsulate on the way down. In the basic case of root to RAL communication, IPv6-in-IPv6 is marked as “No”. Please clarify. Section 8.1.3: > When the RPI is added, the RUL, which does not understand the RPI, will ignore it (per [RFC8200]); thus, encapsulation is not necessary. - Figure 22 states that for root to RUL communication IPv6-in-IPv6 encapsulation is mandatory which is not consistent with this text. Section 8.2.1: - A sentence stating how does RAL recognize that the packet is destined for the Internet would be useful. Section 8.2.3: > As RPL headers are added in the RUL packet, the first 6LR (6LR_1) will add an RPI inside a new IPv6-in-IPv6 header. - this statement makes it sound as if RUL originates a packet with RPL headers. Please rephrase. Nits: > The ROLL WG analysized how [RFC2460] rules apply to storing and non-storing use of RPL. - s/analysized/analyzed > that transports that abstract information in an IPv6 Hob-by-Hop Header. - s/hob/hop > consumed Routing Header and to ignore a HbH header as prescribed by - define HbH, assuming Hop-by-Hop > The root does not removes the RPI1 - s/removes/remove > The 6LR_ia (ia=1) (Node E) - s/6LR_ia (ia=1)/6LR_1 > The root always have to encapuslate on the way down - s/have to encapuslate/has to encapsulate > If the originating node does not not - s/does not not/does not > and add it's own - s/it’s/its > The migration procedure it is triggered when the DIO is sent with the flag indicating the new RPI Option Type. - s/it is/is > Namely, it remains at 0x63 until it is sure that the network is capable of 0x23, then it abruptly change to 0x23. - s/change/changes From nobody Wed Jul 29 11:49:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 270D83A0E28 for ; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings, The call for papers for the 2020 IEEE Vehicular Networking Conference (VNC = 2020) is now available. We appreciate disseminating this call for papers among your organization an= d forward it to other interested parties. ***************************************************************************= ****************************************************** IEEE VNC 2020 - CALL FOR PAPERS ***************************************************************************= ******* The 2020 IEEE Vehicular Networking Conference (VNC 2020) December 16=9618, 2020 | Virtual Conference http://www.ieee-vnc.org ***************************************************************************= ******* ************ The Conference ************ The IEEE Vehicular Networking Conference (VNC) is the premiere conference o= n vehicular networks and applications. It brings together researchers, prof= essionals, and practitioners to share the latest results and to brainstorm = the next phases of exploration in the foundations, technologies, and applic= ations of vehicular communication networks. The 2020 VNC will be held virtu= ally between December 16-18, 2020. ************ Important Dates ************ Full/short paper submission deadline: September 18, 2020, 23:59 AOE (Anywhe= re on Earth, UTC-12) Demo/Poster paper Submission Deadline: September 30, 2020, 23:59 AOE (Anywh= ere on Earth, UTC-12) Acceptance notification: November 6, 2020 Camera ready paper due: November 20, 2020 Presentation videos due: December 4, 2020 Conference: December 16-18, 2020 ************ Topics of Interest ************ Connectivity * 5G technologies for connected vehicles * Emerging V2X communication technologies, including dynamic spectr= um sharing, mmWave, massive MIMO, beamforming, and vehicular visible light = communications (VLC) * Networking, transport and QoS management for vehicular networks * In-vehicle communication and networking systems * Radio for vehicular networks: channel measurements, propagation m= odels, antenna design, etc Architecture and System Design * Heterogeneous vehicular networking (e.g., multi-radio, multi-chan= nel, multi-application, multi-technology) * Architectures and system designs for connected, automated driving * Edge computing and cloud * Security, privacy, liability, and dependability of vehicular netw= orks * Integration of V2C with on-board systems and networks Tools & Methods * Hardware and software platforms for the simulation, emulation, pr= ototyping, measurement, and/or real-world deployment of vehicular networks = and applications * Field measurements and/or real-world deployments of vehicular net= works and applications * Modeling, design, and analysis of vehicular networks and applicat= ions Connected & Automated Driving and Other Applications * Cooperative perception and cooperative driving * Innovative vehicular network applications and their communication= requirements * Vulnerable road user protection * Vehicular networks and IoT integration * Impact assessments of vehicular networks on transportation ************ Manuscript submissions ************ The submitted papers must be written in English and be formatted in the sta= ndard IEEE two-column format and with a font size no less than 10-point. Th= e mandatory IEEE template in Microsoft Word and LaTeX format can be found a= t the IEEE templates page. Only Adobe PDF files will be accepted for the re= view process. All submissions must be made electronically through EDAS. Det= ails will be available at the conference webpage http://www.ieee-vnc.org/ s= oon. The conference will consider four categories of submissions: =95 Full papers should describe novel research contributions and ar= e limited in length to eight (8) printed pages including figures, tables, a= nd references. Papers exceeding 8 pages will be declined automatically and = will not be reviewed. =95 Short papers should be more visionary in nature and may report = on work-in-progress without fully finished results. They are meant to prese= nt novel perspectives, so as to foster discussions about innovative directi= ons and new points of view. They are limited to at most four (4) pages incl= uding figures, tables, and references, but might in many cases be even shor= ter. Accepted short papers will be included in the proceedings and will be = given (a shorter) time for oral presentation at the conference. =95 Posters are especially suited for presenting controversial rese= arch directions that may generate discussion, or promising ideas not yet fu= lly validated through complete extensive evaluation. =95 Demonstration (demo) papers are suited for researchers to showc= ase their latest prototypes with media, models, or live demonstrations. The= demo session will be co-located with the poster session to ensure maximum = visibility and a close interaction with the conference audience. Poster/demo papers should be 2-page papers following standard IEEE 2-column= format using 10-point font. All paper submissions must be written in Engli= sh. The title of the paper should begin with either "Poster:" or "Demo:=94. ************ Conference Chairs ************ Frank Kargl, Ulm University, Germany, General Co-chair Onur Altintas, Toyota Motor North America R&D, USA, General Co-chair Ana Aguiar, University of Porto, Portugal, TPC Co-chair Andr=E9 Weimerkirch, Lear Corporation, USA, TPC Co-chair ***************************************************************************= ****************************************************** --_000_DM6PR01MB45855B3694FF2FCCAE7A8AF383700DM6PR01MB4585prod_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings,

The call for papers for the 2020 IEEE Vehicular Networking Conference (VNC 202= 0) is now available.
We appreciate disseminating this call for papers among your organization and = forward it to other interested parties.

******************************************************************= ***************************************************************
IEEE VNC 2020 - CALL FOR PAPERS
******************************************************************= ****************
The 2020 IEEE Vehicular Networking Conference (VNC 2020)
December 16=9618, 2020 | Virtual Conference
= http://www.ieee-vnc.org
******************************************************************= ****************
************
The Conference
************
The IEEE Vehicular Networking Conference (VNC) is the premiere conference on v= ehicular networks and applications. It brings together researchers, profess= ionals, and practitioners to share the latest results and to brainstorm the= next phases of exploration in the foundations, technologies, and applications of vehicular communication net= works. The 2020 VNC will be held virtually between December 16-18, 2020.

************
Important Dates
************
Full/short paper submission deadline: September 18, 2020, 23:59 AOE (Anywhere on Eart= h, UTC-12)
Demo/Poster paper Submission Deadline: September 30, 2020, 23:59 AOE (Anywhere on Eart= h, UTC-12)
Acceptance notification: November 6, 2020
Camera ready paper due: November 20, 2020
Presentation videos due: December 4, 2020
Conference: December 16-18, 2020

************
Topics of Interest
************
Connectivity

        * 5G technologies for connected vehicles
        * Emerging V2X communication technologies, including = dynamic spectrum sharing, mmWave, massive MIMO, beamforming, and vehicular = visible light communications (VLC)
        * Networking, transport and QoS management for vehicu= lar networks
        * In-vehicle communication and networking systems
        * Radio for vehicular networks: channel measurements,= propagation models, antenna design, etc

 Architecture and System Design

        * Heterogeneous vehicular networking (e.g., multi-rad= io, multi-channel, multi-application, multi-technology)
        * Architectures and system designs for connected, aut= omated driving
        * Edge computing and cloud
        * Security, privacy, liability, and dependability of = vehicular networks
        * Integration of V2C with on-board systems and networ= ks

Tools & Methods

        * Hardware and software platforms for the simulation,= emulation, prototyping, measurement, and/or real-world deployment of vehic= ular networks and applications
        * Field measurements and/or real-world deployments of= vehicular networks and applications
        * Modeling, design, and analysis of vehicular network= s and applications

Connected & Automated Driving and Other Applications

        * Cooperative perception and cooperative driving
        * Innovative vehicular network applications and their= communication requirements
        * Vulnerable road user protection
        * Vehicular networks and IoT integration
        * Impact assessments of vehicular networks on transpo= rtation

************
Manuscript submissions
************
The submitted papers must be written in English and be formatted in the standa= rd IEEE two-column format and with a font size no less than 10-point. The m= andatory IEEE template in Microsoft Word and LaTeX format can be found at t= he IEEE templates page. Only Adobe PDF files will be accepted for the review process. All submissions must be= made electronically through EDAS. Details will be available at the confere= nce webpage http://www.ieee-vnc.org/ soon.

The conference will consider four categories of submissions:
        =95 Full papers should describe novel research contri= butions and are limited in length to eight (8) printed pages including figu= res, tables, and references. Papers exceeding 8 pages will be declined auto= matically and will not be reviewed.
        =95 Short papers should be more visionary in nature a= nd may report on work-in-progress without fully finished results. They are = meant to present novel perspectives, so as to foster discussions about inno= vative directions and new points of view. They are limited to at most four (4) pages including figures, tables, and reference= s, but might in many cases be even shorter. Accepted short papers will be i= ncluded in the proceedings and will be given (a shorter) time for oral pres= entation at the conference.
        =95 Posters are especially suited for presenting cont= roversial research directions that may generate discussion, or promising id= eas not yet fully validated through complete extensive evaluation.         =95 Demonstration (demo) papers are suited for resear= chers to showcase their latest prototypes with media, models, or live demon= strations. The demo session will be co-located with the poster session to e= nsure maximum visibility and a close interaction with the conference audience.
Poster/demo papers should be 2-page papers following standard IEEE 2-column format usi= ng 10-point font. All paper submissions must be written in English. The tit= le of the paper should begin with either "Poster:" or "Demo:= =94.

************
Conference Chairs
************
Frank Kargl, Ulm University, Germany, General Co-chair
Onur Altintas, Toyota Motor North America R&D, USA, General Co-chair=
Ana Aguiar, University of Porto, Portugal, TPC Co-chair
Andr=E9 Weimerkirch, Lear Corporation, USA, TPC Co-chair
******************************************************************= ***************************************************************
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