From nobody Tue Aug 1 07:38:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC3A013218E; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 07:38:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EzWihBRmbb8i; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 07:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA7F013218D; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 07:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C02571E37E; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 10:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 10:38:40 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Ashesh Mishra Cc: Mahesh Jethanandani , Yingzhen Qu , Reshad Rahman , "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bfd-yang@ietf.org" Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-yang-06.txt Message-ID: <20170801143840.GB24942@pfrc.org> References: <773E4FFC-D66A-49E5-A03A-58B7DBA82D90@gmail.com> <20170731170550.GO24942@pfrc.org> <3637B198-8F82-4A85-A4A1-4383AF98088D@pfrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 14:38:28 -0000 Ashesh, On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 09:39:57PM +0000, Ashesh Mishra wrote: > From what I understand, the echo intervals have an inverse relationship with their control interval counterparts. Faster echo allows for slower control frame rate. So they are necessarily different values. That said, having never implemented echo mode, I can't comment how they should get grouped in the model. Remember that configuration and operational state may not be the same. So, some rampant speculation: You configure a desired interval of 50ms. Both sides support echo. (Remember that support may be asymmetric.) It's then permissable for the implementation to decide it can only support 100ms in async mode and bid for 100ms async, 50ms echo. Once Up, the session may further backoff its async to something slower. So, the real question is when echo is supported, what do implementations supporting that put in their async vs. echo intervals? -- Jeff From nobody Tue Aug 1 07:41:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D6B132003; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 07:41:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PAr01vxnQ3vi; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 07:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3A241241F5; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 07:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id AE5E91E37E; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 10:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 10:41:29 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Mahesh Jethanandani Cc: Yingzhen Qu , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bfd-yang@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" , Reshad Rahman Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-yang-06.txt Message-ID: <20170801144129.GC24942@pfrc.org> References: <773E4FFC-D66A-49E5-A03A-58B7DBA82D90@gmail.com> <20170731170550.GO24942@pfrc.org> <3637B198-8F82-4A85-A4A1-4383AF98088D@pfrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 14:41:17 -0000 Mahesh, On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 05:17:34PM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > > My point, unless my very quick glance at the module mislead me, is that you can't configure to use echo mode - if it's supported - in the grouping imported by the IGPs. > > In the current model, it is modeled as a separate grouping with its own set of parameters. The expectation is that implementations that want to define echo mode would use the grouping. Defining the parameters also implicitly defines that echo-mode is enabled. Are you saying that using the echo grouping is not enough? Minimally, I'm saying the IGP use is not pulling in the echo grouping either directly or indirectly. > But I do think that the parameters needs to be further protected by an if-feature statement that says > > grouping echo-cfg-parms { > if-feature echo-mode; > description > "BFD grouping for echo config parameters”; This seems correct. > > My implementation doesn't support echo, so I don't have any opinion about where configuration of those belongs or not. > > With the feature statement, these echo parameters can exist inside of client-cfg-parms, instead as a separate grouping and will be included by the platform only if the feature is defined. And this would be my preference. Is that what folks would also prefer? > I'm ambivalent. This depends really on real world behavior. As we saw from some brief googling yesterday on Cisco IOS/IOS-XR docs, that implementation doesn't appear to expose echo intervals as a separably configurable item. It did, however, expose a boolean to disable echo. This minimally suggests that there should be a "use echo mode" flag. The remaining homework is to figure out whether we should expose configuration state for echo directly in this version of the yang. -- Jeff From nobody Tue Aug 1 08:33:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E8513217B; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 08:33:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WZS5hsxMv4cm; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 08:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x241.google.com (mail-pg0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2785012EA95; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 08:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x241.google.com with SMTP id 83so3171795pgb.4; Tue, 01 Aug 2017 08:33:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=udG2eFpcowT3U1FT9RfEXQ3S6sneGMxUyFEfAyrsZhE=; b=k6VdDLHJ6F7a6NmcUncfh3UqLoIF/rFk6CMwNsYUsaZNOO78+Yfd9CJFHW+4lImVeC 7v7ZVKIfYX4mfLU4BJlNFyYeNs+J4Gk4t8e6ZWXW626EBPO8y8+iWUPjmZPs9PR5rXx1 7bGAtNZWhTvjDgOMdudEKssHP+lcYowJsvza+hhIdMNeTSSlm/q+j9KWDsU1IDHSsOXf vCrTeon4tG1q2LxgUBfUh3/lov78FDx4nHark77LuHuhptixM2/TbsyXCyV3RQNLJlcs 0xD4V2DTEj2WDm1ggpECSGYR4TQKCU4E79L9haIJXlTWHIpYrPHaojk7XsPbfn2k4Mf8 21PQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=udG2eFpcowT3U1FT9RfEXQ3S6sneGMxUyFEfAyrsZhE=; b=oELIepb2VeIO09HAROqMJIV+0WFRnzbQpVyyBlHfR/AWCGUKhlKlJc+h3zyMQ+Lg6t 4xyn7daV7kxJjv9YbHaHjUpfqIuj31Avll6izWrm5PgcgsG2/CtZ1d/vEK+K8jACOMv1 ARZGiPkKpHNbNwr4ZkI2YHZehCfIElKLVGwD4C5IBK00v0FLYHsZVHfaN6yW8XAPStRJ Q3NVVo5syounxbm2bpFj8xYu3tuvGwtytDAwtjqVlLt3I702N8ZT7YrzhHSNFf/0dsXY 7eGneCas8jzH3kQdDtgreItu/rcb/aKGaQ2pB+OGRukfi+xCwU22d+yALHJqHiExzOpo V/Xg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111skJqLQoJFyNkij/kfIGUuBDc5x4pNvvyHOJonKzLlg0UAGMKW rSIoaMPZ/ZgaIA== X-Received: by 10.84.137.1 with SMTP id 1mr21417979plm.75.1501601619718; Tue, 01 Aug 2017 08:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sjc-mahesh-nitro5.cisco.com ([128.107.241.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p123sm55311634pfb.177.2017.08.01.08.33.38 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Aug 2017 08:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-yang-06.txt From: Mahesh Jethanandani In-Reply-To: <20170801144129.GC24942@pfrc.org> Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 08:33:38 -0700 Cc: Yingzhen Qu , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bfd-yang@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" , Reshad Rahman Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <773E4FFC-D66A-49E5-A03A-58B7DBA82D90@gmail.com> <20170731170550.GO24942@pfrc.org> <3637B198-8F82-4A85-A4A1-4383AF98088D@pfrc.org> <20170801144129.GC24942@pfrc.org> To: Jeffrey Haas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 15:33:41 -0000 > On Aug 1, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: >=20 > Mahesh, >=20 > On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 05:17:34PM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: >>> My point, unless my very quick glance at the module mislead me, is = that you can't configure to use echo mode - if it's supported - in the = grouping imported by the IGPs. >>=20 >> In the current model, it is modeled as a separate grouping with its = own set of parameters. The expectation is that implementations that want = to define echo mode would use the grouping. Defining the parameters also = implicitly defines that echo-mode is enabled. Are you saying that using = the echo grouping is not enough?=20 >=20 > Minimally, I'm saying the IGP use is not pulling in the echo grouping = either > directly or indirectly. Ahh! That is correct. I was not sure if you were pointing out an issue = with the BFD model or the client model(s). >=20 >> But I do think that the parameters needs to be further protected by = an if-feature statement that says >>=20 >> grouping echo-cfg-parms { >> if-feature echo-mode; >> description=20 >> "BFD grouping for echo config parameters=E2=80=9D; >=20 > This seems correct. >=20 >>> My implementation doesn't support echo, so I don't have any opinion = about where configuration of those belongs or not. >>=20 >> With the feature statement, these echo parameters can exist inside of = client-cfg-parms, instead as a separate grouping and will be included by = the platform only if the feature is defined. And this would be my = preference. Is that what folks would also prefer? >>=20 >=20 > I'm ambivalent. This depends really on real world behavior. >=20 > As we saw from some brief googling yesterday on Cisco IOS/IOS-XR docs, = that > implementation doesn't appear to expose echo intervals as a separably > configurable item. It did, however, expose a boolean to disable echo. True. But the standard seems to imply the ability to configure echo = values separately. Worst case implementations would have to set both the = values to be the same.=20 >=20 > This minimally suggests that there should be a "use echo mode" flag. Will add a boolean to enable/disable echo mode. >=20 > The remaining homework is to figure out whether we should expose > configuration state for echo directly in this version of the yang. Per NMDA guidelines, unless the configuration state values are different = from config, we do not need to model them as separate attributes. >=20 > -- Jeff Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Tue Aug 1 09:33:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A0C8131EC3; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 09:33:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QYkrdtA3pBLl; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 09:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C8AE131C28; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 09:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 573231E345; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 12:33:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 12:33:40 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Mahesh Jethanandani Cc: Yingzhen Qu , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bfd-yang@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" , Reshad Rahman Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-yang-06.txt Message-ID: <20170801163340.GD24942@pfrc.org> References: <773E4FFC-D66A-49E5-A03A-58B7DBA82D90@gmail.com> <20170731170550.GO24942@pfrc.org> <3637B198-8F82-4A85-A4A1-4383AF98088D@pfrc.org> <20170801144129.GC24942@pfrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 16:33:28 -0000 On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 08:33:38AM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > > I'm ambivalent. This depends really on real world behavior. > > > > As we saw from some brief googling yesterday on Cisco IOS/IOS-XR docs, that > > implementation doesn't appear to expose echo intervals as a separably > > configurable item. It did, however, expose a boolean to disable echo. > > True. But the standard seems to imply the ability to configure echo values separately. Worst case implementations would have to set both the values to be the same. The protocol does. But that doesn't mean the config model should. > > This minimally suggests that there should be a "use echo mode" flag. > > Will add a boolean to enable/disable echo mode. I think that's a good start. > > The remaining homework is to figure out whether we should expose > > configuration state for echo directly in this version of the yang. > > Per NMDA guidelines, unless the configuration state values are different from config, we do not need to model them as separate attributes. Right. So, again need to check real world implementations. If it's the case that implementations supporting echo only use a single set of the intervals for echo or not, then we only need that in the model. If it becomes the case that an implementation supports echo intervals differently, a vendor *could* augment the model to support such values. However, since this is imported via grouping, it means that the augmentation has to be done in each module that uses the grouping. I hate yang grouping augmentation rules. :-P -- Jeff From nobody Tue Aug 1 17:51:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD9C131C8C; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 17:51:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sbgLdAZbK5Ze; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 17:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x243.google.com (mail-oi0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5415129B10; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 17:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x243.google.com with SMTP id j194so4164590oib.4; Tue, 01 Aug 2017 17:51:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=F7b7be01rvjw/5v1m+DC4qOi1PAIPzc2+CVRT+HGUUQ=; b=Iw5vaSiWfrLlOR54gozEX/zm7pfmVXzUhq0J4Zw/a46FwotpxG09X+8HfeMrsezHeD Clmfa1HA+kywlT+8+PkH+4IgszeJnzuhQRvGb760pHhhbhhDMpILi/2OAjCzI4deLI7X rXTWUgkpn/CHz3dDZWM4JfOdOnlI45D4m/MZwDx7lFyZYA8hm5larT0X3e+8NZkc8wZG 1qrgwWUkKk4AxpuwT1rinjNmLSDHe7DnVeLFekX4dTBXrcbU9E9s2bChydq5r778gewZ IRp4XKn57MUdkBgkz+ZuyDeBeZ53xZs6rnLG/OS4Fi8XnkLxElHbTb1zuTT0QtxAMP6X 4JJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=F7b7be01rvjw/5v1m+DC4qOi1PAIPzc2+CVRT+HGUUQ=; b=DkAa9e2ANoXJicOoQMkIC3RCzQmXAFvVWwR/dz8n1fsVuZpMhEu2/KedCgg4pVetiu NGi25D7WZrLVJHw/t1pFsVFj3n3bscYjZs3k/jg1k21FbhXjSxZa5VPQ/iXizUQLm4ZP dgI3WUq3q92CCZO+OKVN/QsiMLut7ZGgI/O/Klb6YD5YpxlubzqUuBrN0s9NJ5Ef7K+I WGPxP3xQDccq8/2NdQC4BJjBy8x1BmzRLIsW46f9Io2qnxeeSmweD4GYbrpwDuGWSbEo HfJZgyqH/qhjp4VqJ67/BhuX0DTqdhd6bIPgPvE7Z+IiqgaFlcm8MRirKnrs5+5EW2fS k9Zw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw1104ZilF3Qw064V2Oj3bD+KmltFMFKTHV9QN5EjUvQw9kGxmRBru LxLv2vfTepcDIA== X-Received: by 10.202.204.149 with SMTP id c143mr17302718oig.11.1501635095004; Tue, 01 Aug 2017 17:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printer-xx-69a0ea.cisco.com (printer-xx-69a0ea.cisco.com. [128.107.151.25]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p7sm5938906oif.33.2017.08.01.17.51.32 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Aug 2017 17:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_62E10BD5-6AFE-43ED-BAAE-093EDE42CBE4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-yang-06.txt From: Mahesh Jethanandani In-Reply-To: <20170801163340.GD24942@pfrc.org> Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 17:52:01 -0700 Cc: Yingzhen Qu , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bfd-yang@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" , Reshad Rahman Message-Id: <288504C7-7F37-4547-8950-9375B1F10C22@gmail.com> References: <773E4FFC-D66A-49E5-A03A-58B7DBA82D90@gmail.com> <20170731170550.GO24942@pfrc.org> <3637B198-8F82-4A85-A4A1-4383AF98088D@pfrc.org> <20170801144129.GC24942@pfrc.org> <20170801163340.GD24942@pfrc.org> To: Jeffrey Haas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2017 00:51:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_62E10BD5-6AFE-43ED-BAAE-093EDE42CBE4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Aug 1, 2017, at 9:33 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: >=20 > On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 08:33:38AM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: >>> I'm ambivalent. This depends really on real world behavior. >>>=20 >>> As we saw from some brief googling yesterday on Cisco IOS/IOS-XR = docs, that >>> implementation doesn't appear to expose echo intervals as a = separably >>> configurable item. It did, however, expose a boolean to disable = echo. >>=20 >> True. But the standard seems to imply the ability to configure echo = values separately. Worst case implementations would have to set both the = values to be the same.=20 >=20 > The protocol does. But that doesn't mean the config model should. Ok. I have removed the separate configuration values for tx/rx min = intervals for echo model. Now, there is only one set of tx/rx values. >=20 >>> This minimally suggests that there should be a "use echo mode" flag. >>=20 >> Will add a boolean to enable/disable echo mode. >=20 > I think that's a good start. This is what we have now in client-cfg-parms container echo-mode { if-feature echo-mode; leaf echo-mode-enabled { type boolean; default false; description "Should be set to true if echo-mode is enabled for this session. Set to false by default because defining the feature should not enable echo-mode by default."; } } Yingzhen, there is one other change that you should be aware of. There = is no longer a choice between configuring tx/rx values and a single = value for both. Even if the values are the same for tx and rx, you need = to configure each of them explicitly.=20 I will be uploading the changes shortly. Thanks. >=20 >>> The remaining homework is to figure out whether we should expose >>> configuration state for echo directly in this version of the yang. >>=20 >> Per NMDA guidelines, unless the configuration state values are = different from config, we do not need to model them as separate = attributes. >=20 > Right. So, again need to check real world implementations. >=20 > If it's the case that implementations supporting echo only use a = single set > of the intervals for echo or not, then we only need that in the model. = =20 >=20 > If it becomes the case that an implementation supports echo intervals > differently, a vendor *could* augment the model to support such = values. > However, since this is imported via grouping, it means that the = augmentation > has to be done in each module that uses the grouping. >=20 > I hate yang grouping augmentation rules. :-P >=20 > -- Jeff Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_62E10BD5-6AFE-43ED-BAAE-093EDE42CBE4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
On Aug 1, 2017, at 9:33 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> = wrote:

On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 08:33:38AM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani = wrote:
I'm ambivalent.  This depends really on = real world behavior.

As we saw from some = brief googling yesterday on Cisco IOS/IOS-XR docs, that
implementation doesn't appear to expose echo intervals as a = separably
configurable item.  It did, however, expose = a boolean to disable echo.

True.= But the standard seems to imply the ability to configure echo values = separately. Worst case implementations would have to set both the values = to be the same.

The protocol = does. But that doesn't mean the config model should.

Ok. I have = removed the separate configuration values for tx/rx min intervals for = echo model. Now, there is only one set of tx/rx values.


This minimally suggests that there should be a = "use echo mode" flag.

Will add = a boolean to enable/disable echo mode.

I think that's a good start.

This is = what we have now in client-cfg-parms

  =   container = echo-mode {
    =   if-feature = echo-mode;
      leaf echo-mode-enabled = {
        type boolean;
        default false;
  =       description
  =         "Should be set to true if echo-mode = is enabled for this
           session. Set to = false by default because defining the
           feature = should not enable echo-mode by default.";
    =   }
    }

Yingzhen, there is one other change that you should be aware = of. There is no longer a choice between configuring tx/rx values and a = single value for both. Even if the values are the same for tx and rx, = you need to configure each of them explicitly. 

I will be uploading the changes shortly.

Thanks.


The remaining homework = is to figure out whether we should expose
configuration = state for echo directly in this version of the yang.

Per NMDA guidelines, unless the = configuration state values are different from config, we do not need to = model them as separate attributes.

Right.  So, again need to check real world = implementations.

If it's the case that = implementations supporting echo only use a single set
of = the intervals for echo or not, then we only need that in the model. =  

If it becomes the case that an = implementation supports echo intervals
differently, a = vendor *could* augment the model to support such values.
However, since this is imported via grouping, it means that = the augmentation
has to be done in each module that uses = the grouping.

I hate yang grouping = augmentation rules. :-P

-- Jeff

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com



= --Apple-Mail=_62E10BD5-6AFE-43ED-BAAE-093EDE42CBE4-- From nobody Mon Aug 7 09:47:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7504C1324E3; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 09:47:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KZlmb6pgiPFA; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 09:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A67C1324E2; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 09:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1C1421E35A; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 12:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 12:47:36 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Mahesh Jethanandani Cc: Yingzhen Qu , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bfd-yang@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" , Reshad Rahman Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-yang-06.txt Message-ID: <20170807164736.GH24942@pfrc.org> References: <773E4FFC-D66A-49E5-A03A-58B7DBA82D90@gmail.com> <20170731170550.GO24942@pfrc.org> <3637B198-8F82-4A85-A4A1-4383AF98088D@pfrc.org> <20170801144129.GC24942@pfrc.org> <20170801163340.GD24942@pfrc.org> <288504C7-7F37-4547-8950-9375B1F10C22@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <288504C7-7F37-4547-8950-9375B1F10C22@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 16:47:15 -0000 On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 05:52:01PM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > I will be uploading the changes shortly. Are we at the point where we should look at the model contents again? -- Jeff From nobody Mon Aug 7 10:25:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0A2B132645; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 10:25:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dW6NGdWmAgN1; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 10:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x241.google.com (mail-pg0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2D40131CEA; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 10:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x241.google.com with SMTP id y192so929180pgd.1; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 10:25:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=NyaXNyLHz9snUGcVtaqaAh6r1J9RCmqUjuiYI4WQPzc=; b=tqzu1GtKKL8nsICeIyHAU+796hlx4L08gkrnEko5BpzszqKfjSCmpwp9lDR2vo47gS dJgdjHgOLOgQUEHn3OjqvV4mCadsflCltnHPGnm8QQt1LpNUlM4QGszJwAVFfzxlayHM Mn3lD6PqhL+z5N4hLmSptbB1A16MS5o3vbowsMB4HqcdL1ln1vwBIynL+UQlI1QJQNdB 8a6IWBdQpaVwDfwBvF+WxeQi5Y7ZbUEir9rYdNyfwrTTfclGmRie16pcxjMkb8qB/Hsz RV6CJGG/lIYJexeXm7lscNFt/HDvN7vSB+VwlgkPKTaLhWmNVuzsAokW6Zrcojj00wXX l++Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=NyaXNyLHz9snUGcVtaqaAh6r1J9RCmqUjuiYI4WQPzc=; b=uLtZikckR251C0tTomnJUVsZAQGcFWMq4YRZagbyo7RXTFeW2kQF23Nubhex8UhXhb ykWEwk0uvLIcYjXJsdhT3XiHyzY7WcWFCGTILizjOSJOeoaurtNcuxxJ2ix0jyaDOgxH YOkR8SkWKixiStEByu9IqgZ8XUyKvWkzp4Ww4yOesVLIuqqEHi0Vm2nVjuPXTSVCxDd+ NnwVDaBQaWiOOxSOaMI/1C3oaL9TG5ptNvVu7hYz4zXVv+yzB/0+F04uOoGBzBdQPlss JFeIuR1O2Mzw7tEt/Zqo0cocoE6m3dsdu8ycqeAO9PYY7EwPs1WvRcEnqLl3r3bUrenF QNnQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5hkbm3MnZRj0GXtwE+kJtCJS3ld0D5J6qjKmJxZdcOYz6hZM8Gm 1ZDb5LeB+MtLEg== X-Received: by 10.99.54.138 with SMTP id d132mr1230978pga.156.1502126741147; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 10:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sjc-mahesh-nitro2.cisco.com ([128.107.241.170]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s14sm12067161pgo.14.2017.08.07.10.25.39 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 07 Aug 2017 10:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-yang-06.txt From: Mahesh Jethanandani In-Reply-To: <20170807164736.GH24942@pfrc.org> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 10:25:38 -0700 Cc: Yingzhen Qu , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bfd-yang@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" , Reshad Rahman Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <773E4FFC-D66A-49E5-A03A-58B7DBA82D90@gmail.com> <20170731170550.GO24942@pfrc.org> <3637B198-8F82-4A85-A4A1-4383AF98088D@pfrc.org> <20170801144129.GC24942@pfrc.org> <20170801163340.GD24942@pfrc.org> <288504C7-7F37-4547-8950-9375B1F10C22@gmail.com> <20170807164736.GH24942@pfrc.org> To: Jeffrey Haas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 17:25:43 -0000 > On Aug 7, 2017, at 9:47 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: >=20 > On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 05:52:01PM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: >> I will be uploading the changes shortly. >=20 > Are we at the point where we should look at the model contents again? The BFD model is uploaded and should be evaluated to make sure it meets = the requirements of IGP. >=20 > -- Jeff Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Mon Aug 7 13:34:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3882132421 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:34:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BDnUYrWqWzE7 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x234.google.com (mail-qk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 780131323F5 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id d145so9332883qkc.2 for ; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 13:34:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bhaIn/HhJERZKrv8Mm4d392HoqLWocEE7dODfCCJph0=; b=Emf9qzhFwMWSUdwrCgN+OeNF49dN0NCHL0Y0lAc7XmwefPsH23BJMmmUvcugPGkPJw LZ/9ryIhCNrE88fZI64JpRBhHXHl6WHg6rKO64KAmlkfB4gWPLfus8Gib+W7yk6eowlm E7sI9gCI1llDi9ncQ8QbiJPa1qAAoKTH8OfagulSbDxh9JdK3IB9rl4AHFl3Rr6aDcWd BGHyKXQL2rSdHZ25a++zLFw0q9GBpAQaHJ4jtC5z4vGLMuU+SNyuXpU7vPWynTJ0Z9xv 3CVflp27uQofMl2xe7f3QTKHK+BVkALpbp4RtgGuyJXL7C8qHotMAnj48vXbqb7G9IAC ZFbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bhaIn/HhJERZKrv8Mm4d392HoqLWocEE7dODfCCJph0=; b=SBQwbMBusfpbaUrIJDAv2xAGJaosX1TCCHYAnjzuVWlgSXxc5taKRqFS1aFAVii445 5mPTSWpyB1cBLroUbH9FZQjcPX1FuLndk+HjeTR5McMufWxF86zB30LiLfAYIpVnCaAm TaKVb+ZUGgJgzGK1Q9EQB8eYH6C1CYoWfWBS6dLkItIXzbQdb3UpSiadQXL+uKmrGmfX Cxh3mz7pDoMCd67t43zvoHlaxv29njRUpYMjWt/npH3RztYgHmzv8qJ+LdPpvQVWywTv o2eeMnIp8tuQF5abEiGS1t6V8yDxi5EB36rBpclsONojz9AvYv7PF9rkJXKjDbSVwJEt 8hEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5gyY8NN7l2GdtiMygRupgFqmS6b1DJ18ndxfCp5RcNtP/+NDohZ tKxrRtDqpD3XnTvZsvv9SGhXevjpXq9J X-Received: by 10.55.180.197 with SMTP id d188mr2482155qkf.181.1502138068470; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 13:34:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.88.72 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:34:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170619193929.GE22146@pfrc.org> References: <20170619193929.GE22146@pfrc.org> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:34:28 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: WGLC for BFD Multipoint documents (ending July 14, 2017) To: Jeffrey Haas Cc: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c06f336f9925905562fc54c" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 20:34:32 -0000 --94eb2c06f336f9925905562fc54c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Jeff, et. al, I've missed the part of active-tails in the WGLC. My apologies. Though it may be too late, I'll send my notes by the end of the week. Since the targeted track to the active-tails draft may be changed from Standard to Experimental perhaps we should inform the TRILL WG as TRILL Support of Point to Multipoint BFD has active-tails as its normative reference and very much relies on its functionality to keep the root informed of failure in p2mp tree. reg On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > Working Group, > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-10 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-active-tail-04 > > > The BFD Multipoint documents have been stable for some time. Prior > discussion at meetings has suggested we have an implementation for the main > protocol component. Also per prior discussions, we split the active-tail > component of the original multipoint document to permit implementors to not > have to worry about implementing active-tail procedures if they weren't > interested in that feature. > > We are starting an extended last call on these documents. The WGLC will > conclude on July 14. This provides ample time for list discussion. If > necessary, the IETF-99 meeting may provide for opportunities to close any > contentious technical points. (BFD is not currently scheduled to meet.) > > One item I would like to kick off is the document status of the active-tail > mechanism. At this time, no one has implemented it that I am aware of. > Discussion with our AD suggests that publishing the document with > Experimental status may be reasonable to preserve the work that went into > the proposal. > > -- Jeff > > --94eb2c06f336f9925905562fc54c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jeff, et. al,
I've missed the part of active-ta= ils in the WGLC. My apologies. Though it may be too late, I'll send my = notes by the end of the week.
Since the targeted track to the act= ive-tails draft may be changed from Standard to Experimental perhaps we sho= uld inform the TRILL WG as TRILL Supp= ort of Point to Multipoint BFD=C2=A0has active-tails as its norm= ative reference and very much relies on its functionality to keep the root = informed of failure in p2mp tree.
reg

On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:39 PM,= Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
Working Group,

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-= bfd-multipoint-10
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-active-tail-04


The BFD Multipoint documents have been stable for some time.=C2=A0 Prior discussion at meetings has suggested we have an implementation for the main=
protocol component.=C2=A0 Also per prior discussions, we split the active-t= ail
component of the original multipoint document to permit implementors to not=
have to worry about implementing active-tail procedures if they weren't=
interested in that feature.

We are starting an extended last call on these documents.=C2=A0 The WGLC wi= ll
conclude on July 14.=C2=A0 This provides ample time for list discussion.=C2= =A0 If
necessary, the IETF-99 meeting may provide for opportunities to close any contentious technical points.=C2=A0 (BFD is not currently scheduled to meet= .)

One item I would like to kick off is the document status of the active-tail=
mechanism.=C2=A0 At this time, no one has implemented it that I am aware of= .
Discussion with our AD suggests that publishing the document with
Experimental status may be reasonable to preserve the work that went into the proposal.

-- Jeff


--94eb2c06f336f9925905562fc54c-- From nobody Fri Aug 11 10:24:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B800613247C for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 22:36:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LTtLZoL80JGQ for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 22:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E60B6132473 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 22:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 27303B81263; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 22:35:50 -0700 (PDT) To: rahul@juniper.net, kireeti@juniper.net, tom.nadeau@bt.com, swallow@cisco.com, akatlas@gmail.com, db3546@att.com, aretana@cisco.com, jhaas@pfrc.org, rrahman@cisco.com Subject: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Cc: balajir@juniper.net, rtg-bfd@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 22:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 10:23:59 -0700 X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 05:36:07 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5884, "Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) for MPLS Label Switched Paths (LSPs)". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5085 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: Balaji Rajagopalan Section: 6 Original Text ------------- The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. Corrected Text -------------- The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. Notes ----- It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional: - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply is optional - The reply itself is optional Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. This was the intent of the original text. Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC5884 (draft-ietf-bfd-mpls-07) -------------------------------------- Title : Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) for MPLS Label Switched Paths (LSPs) Publication Date : June 2010 Author(s) : R. Aggarwal, K. Kompella, T. Nadeau, G. Swallow Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : Bidirectional Forwarding Detection Area : Routing Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Fri Aug 11 10:39:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0461813201E for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 10:39:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CbKNbUKY1GGY for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 10:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4841612711B for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 10:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 683641E37F; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 13:39:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 13:39:31 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org Cc: kireeti@juniper.net, tnadeau@lucidvision.com, swallow.ietf@gmail.com, akatlas@gmail.com, db3546@att.com, aretana@cisco.com, rrahman@cisco.com, balajir@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) Message-ID: <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> References: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 17:39:03 -0000 [Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catch the RFC authors' current accounts.] The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up. Balaji submitted an errata, which provides us with a good place to start technical discussion. Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with Balaji. On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: > Section: 6 > > Original Text > ------------- > The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > the BFD session. > > Corrected Text > -------------- > The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. > > > Notes > ----- > It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional: > - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply is optional > - The reply itself is optional > > Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. > > The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. This was the intent of the original text. My opinion follows: In section 6 - : On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST : send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of : the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD : Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the : discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo : request message. The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo : reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for : the BFD session. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR : MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packets : sent by the egress LSR. In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session. The receipt of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional. This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the BFD session to come up as fast as possible. The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such replies. It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section 3.2. : Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP fault : detection: : : i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD session as described : later in this document. : : ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BFD session) : packets at the required detection interval. : : iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the control plane : against the data plane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to : the same FEC, at the egress, as the ingress. iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails. Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever. However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving that the LSP is up. Thus we have contradictory intent. --- My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means. I do not believe the likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply". Among other things, that seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures. Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text. -- Jeff From nobody Fri Aug 11 10:56:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B6513269D; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 10:56:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vUPBTx6EbYRH; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D881326A8; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A3DA91E37F; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 13:57:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 13:57:21 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: trill@ietf.org Cc: rtg-bfd@ietf.org Subject: BFD WGLC on BFD multipoint features (trill) Message-ID: <20170811175721.GA31323@pfrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 17:56:53 -0000 Trill WG, I was recently reminded that trill has an interest in the BFD multipoint features. (C.f. RFC 7175.) The BFD Multipoint features are in extended working group last call. Your input on the documents is solicited: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-10 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-active-tail-04 Please note there had been discussion about making the active tail feature Experimental since there are no known implementations of it. If this has impact on the standards ref for trill work, please express an opinion on the potential Experimental status. Here is a breadcrumb into the BFD WG mail archives: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/yDOFOpd9BIIKtLniDGdqPioSt_w -- Jeff From nobody Fri Aug 11 11:12:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C7D0126C22 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:12:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ch6-RAIBupsN for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA1F1131CCF for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id t128so19366715lff.2 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:12:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yGnPxIZw7dQSaY8SnECGvynbRrqFAeH18ctv9YPKsz4=; b=oSH2h02sneV28nYx5beWuTB6BVI0mJnTSDNI4cbWw9q5VApk/SpWmNdaheNRcUWJ1D 38RSHSMjIiQGl+VdmdEilCxokayFa8td9j5G4/XgWKqzMXY94g+CGJy90dmw/4eDfRS7 QPMmRaMx4p4HuRWXR+mE8eqn1zdRnj4Nd4aU24QvwI2iEBFIi4+mH+WztDqk4746CVtb BQOYmePVq5z76J/g+50ArG19JlcOwdee41vINSU2HcK+bRcui1Rzi4BReaoSOyDpC7Vp vOqGXlLKkbCl/976wZJP9qkD9S14iTJcP7P3AnwWwlEweUsj/rMwaPpdvgCghT22HfRc L2Mw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yGnPxIZw7dQSaY8SnECGvynbRrqFAeH18ctv9YPKsz4=; b=dJ1wOWR/mq+N6Xsrria/cy4ZVDKzoGmzXOBB+0IcS/X6Lhh669hZJsAoSLTN6+zrNt wsv8glBJvN522sUryxAY46WGnEMdCj4TdzfDNMmvn+60I4iK3Siv9/t5iU6bzzjZLbgy vMvaCUvxm0ZExAko958Y8GE9KHTLFZUf1nNk1ojytXTGIeKmm+UC1umrIBHkE+sMsTDA G6ogBn1Q8ZwOMeFC8LK+lI6svyyOgCOj2KMr2VqCbi+fUoi+toPFZaPeQXWB9Bsk/25g 0SSea9iqTDal4VEgezzc9AGmJSvF33C5gLzqlID/V/AJ+Jnsi5/dEE7jxNZ5+OYV5K8V hwPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5gKPmGlz36eNYKNd8PIncPkyaiafIvOcR3lM4Eb+obiesqPOFPl C+83N+C6zWK54fjN9Ranquza2sc9jc+68D8= X-Received: by 10.25.40.143 with SMTP id o137mr5818723lfo.102.1502475169996; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:12:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.88.81 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:12:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> References: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:12:49 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) To: Jeffrey Haas Cc: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , Thomas Nadeau , "kireeti@juniper.net" , Alia Atlas , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11410e1acaa71405567e42eb" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 18:12:55 -0000 --001a11410e1acaa71405567e42eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Re-sending to the corrected list (apologies for duplicates). Dear All, I suggest to reject this proposal. The current text is clear and the mechanics of bootstrapping BFD session over MPLS LSP is well understood - remote peer MUST start sending BFD control packets first and BFD peer MAY send Echo Reply with its Local Discriminator as value in BFD Discriminator TLV. Regards, Greg On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > [Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catch the > RFC authors' current accounts.] > > > The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up. Balaji submitted an errata, > which > provides us with a good place to start technical discussion. > > Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with > Balaji. > > > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: > > Section: 6 > > > > Original Text > > ------------- > > The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > > reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > > the BFD session. > > > > Corrected Text > > -------------- > > The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that > > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. > > > > > > Notes > > ----- > > It is not clear from the original text which of the following is > optional: > > - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply is > optional > > - The reply itself is optional > > > > Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to > report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. > > > > The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. > This was the intent of the original text. > > My opinion follows: > > In section 6 - > > : On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST > : send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of > : the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD > : Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the > : discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo > : request message. The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > : reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > : the BFD session. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR > : MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packets > : sent by the egress LSR. > > In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD > packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session. The receipt > of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional. > > This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the > BFD session to come up as fast as possible. > > The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such > replies. It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section 3.2. > > : Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP fault > : detection: > : > : i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD session as described > : later in this document. > : > : ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BFD session) > : packets at the required detection interval. > : > : iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the control plane > : against the data plane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to > : the same FEC, at the egress, as the ingress. > > iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails. > Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever. > > However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving > that the LSP is up. Thus we have contradictory intent. > > --- > > My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have > the BFD session come up by the most expedient means. I do not believe the > likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply". Among other things, that > seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures. > > Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the > Working Group: Debating intent and related text. > > -- Jeff > > --001a11410e1acaa71405567e42eb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Re-sending to the corrected list (apologies for duplicates= ).

Dear All,=
I suggest to reject this proposal. The current text is clear and the m= echanics of bootstrapping BFD session over MPLS LSP is well understood - re= mote peer MUST start sending BFD control packets first and BFD peer MAY sen= d Echo Reply with its Local Discriminator as value in BFD Discriminator TLV= .

Regards,
Greg
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Jeffrey Haas = <j= haas@pfrc.org> wrote:
[Note= that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catch the
RFC authors' current accounts.]


The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up.=C2=A0 Balaji submitted an errata,= which
provides us with a good place to start technical discussion.

Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with
Balaji.


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote:
> Section: 6
>
> Original Text
> -------------
> The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
> reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for<= br> > the BFD session.
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
> The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session.<= br> >
>
> Notes
> -----
> It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optio= nal:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminato= r in the reply is optional
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 The reply itself is optional
>
> Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to= report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress.
>
> The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply= . This was the intent of the original text.

My opinion follows:

In section 6 -

:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress = LSR MUST
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validat= ion of
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds.=C2=A0= This BFD
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the<= br> :=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping = Echo
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 request message.=C2=A0 The egress LSR MAY respond with an LS= P Ping Echo
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reply message that carries the local discri= minator assigned by it for
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the BFD session.=C2=A0 The local discriminator assign= ed by the egress LSR
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD sessio= n packets
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sent by the egress LSR.

In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session.=C2=A0 The rec= eipt
of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional.

This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the=
BFD session to come up as fast as possible.

The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such
replies.=C2=A0 It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, sec= tion 3.2.

:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP= fault
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 detection:
:
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD s= ession as described
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 later in this document.
:
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BF= D session)
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 packets at the required detection inter= val.
:
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the contr= ol plane
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 against the data plane by ensuring that= the LSP is mapped to
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the same FEC, at the egress, as the ing= ress.

iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails.<= br> Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever.

However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving<= br> that the LSP is up.=C2=A0 Thus we have contradictory intent.

---

My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means.=C2=A0 I do not believe= the
likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply".=C2=A0 Among= other things, that
seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures.

Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text.

-- Jeff


--001a11410e1acaa71405567e42eb-- From nobody Fri Aug 11 19:45:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B4581324E2 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 19:45:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.519 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.519 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DhNSHmAVMYvW for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 19:45:41 -0700 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CC: "rtg-bfd@ietf. org" , Tom Nadeau , "Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net)" , Alia Atlas , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) Thread-Topic: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) Thread-Index: AQHTEsasU87guosjHUWva6qlHRtDoKJ/rxSAgACYlQA= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2017 02:45:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.116.133] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E2844FE29C884410A7A27F8AE0567E78ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: 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Y2FybG9zQGNpc2NvLmNvbQ0KDQrigJxTb21ldGltZXMgSSB1c2UgYmlnIHdvcmRzIHRoYXQgSSBk byBub3QgZnVsbHkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCwgdG8gbWFrZSBteXNlbGYgc291bmQgbW9yZSBwaG90b3N5 bnRoZXNpcy4iDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Aug 14 08:24:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD11132386; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 08:24:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sWPSTM9cAEI4; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 08:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86A04132376; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 08:24:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2264; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1502724256; x=1503933856; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=3k4qd7+8UGbMrUPATqUxs5A7DzCj3U3ga2fTJ9Tx6/E=; b=djTuQIdrC5js71Ltzo8clY5Z2vwEnKMwI1JGK6ajjNDOTJCXcZ4tKUzp dpnA2PDFbiYniXQ/4Whl4g+lFGK0LyodiBEEDqcPOuD3d2dI+6OUCu5et EJV5ofdu6hhvqyZhkYmCUv4HPvV7e8/CV6O5+DTxgrctYMpPDJK9Z8G13 A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CZAABuwJFZ/4cNJK1dGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= 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10:24:06 -0500 From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" To: Jeffrey Haas , Mahesh Jethanandani CC: Yingzhen Qu , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bfd-yang@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-yang-06.txt Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-yang-06.txt Thread-Index: AQHS8drqXiPB9yzw8Uyz6SEnSzAzYaJFxYCAgBeSvYCAAT4qwIAGf4+AgAMdioCAABQjAP//8hkAgAASYgD///B3AIAAawoAgAAI1YCAAY+3gP//wcOAAAht2QAAApY1AACKkk0AAAcEyAAAAQL8AAAHDDsAAB4sBYAAAdJCAAACGL0AAoMA9QA= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 15:24:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <773E4FFC-D66A-49E5-A03A-58B7DBA82D90@gmail.com> <20170731170550.GO24942@pfrc.org> <3637B198-8F82-4A85-A4A1-4383AF98088D@pfrc.org> <20170801144129.GC24942@pfrc.org> <20170801163340.GD24942@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: <20170801163340.GD24942@pfrc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.7.1.161129 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.64] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 15:24:19 -0000 I am gradually catching up to emails so I may not have absorbed all the emails I have gone through yet=8A. Regarding echo config, we agreed in Chicago to remove the echo config based on the fact that implementations of echo are vendor specific. e.g. An implementation which has echo as continuous would likely have echo configuration whereas an implementation which has echo as on-demand may use RPC. There is an example of a vendor augmentation for echo config in Appendix A.1. Regards, Reshad. On 2017-08-01, 12:33 PM, "Jeffrey Haas" wrote: >On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 08:33:38AM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: >> > I'm ambivalent. This depends really on real world behavior. >> >=20 >> > As we saw from some brief googling yesterday on Cisco IOS/IOS-XR >>docs, that >> > implementation doesn't appear to expose echo intervals as a separably >> > configurable item. It did, however, expose a boolean to disable echo. >>=20 >> True. But the standard seems to imply the ability to configure echo >>values separately. Worst case implementations would have to set both the >>values to be the same. > >The protocol does. But that doesn't mean the config model should. > >> > This minimally suggests that there should be a "use echo mode" flag. >>=20 >> Will add a boolean to enable/disable echo mode. > >I think that's a good start. > >> > The remaining homework is to figure out whether we should expose >> > configuration state for echo directly in this version of the yang. >>=20 >> Per NMDA guidelines, unless the configuration state values are >>different from config, we do not need to model them as separate >>attributes. > >Right. So, again need to check real world implementations. > >If it's the case that implementations supporting echo only use a single >set >of the intervals for echo or not, then we only need that in the model. > >If it becomes the case that an implementation supports echo intervals >differently, a vendor *could* augment the model to support such values. >However, since this is imported via grouping, it means that the >augmentation >has to be done in each module that uses the grouping. > >I hate yang grouping augmentation rules. :-P > >-- Jeff From nobody Mon Aug 14 10:10:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BA61323AA; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:10:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0BHZkdotKKNS; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB8541323AF; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dresden.attlocal.net (99-59-193-67.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net [99.59.193.67]) by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5893B1E3B3; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 13:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-yang-06.txt From: Jeffrey Haas In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 13:10:43 -0400 Cc: Mahesh Jethanandani , Yingzhen Qu , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bfd-yang@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <773E4FFC-D66A-49E5-A03A-58B7DBA82D90@gmail.com> <20170731170550.GO24942@pfrc.org> <3637B198-8F82-4A85-A4A1-4383AF98088D@pfrc.org> <20170801144129.GC24942@pfrc.org> <20170801163340.GD24942@pfrc.org> To: Reshad Rahman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:10:47 -0000 > On Aug 14, 2017, at 11:24 AM, Reshad Rahman (rrahman) = wrote: >=20 > I am gradually catching up to emails so I may not have absorbed all = the > emails I have gone through yet=C5=A0. >=20 > Regarding echo config, we agreed in Chicago to remove the echo config > based on the fact that implementations of echo are vendor specific. = e.g. > An implementation which has echo as continuous would likely have echo > configuration whereas an implementation which has echo as on-demand = may > use RPC. There is an example of a vendor augmentation for echo config = in > Appendix A.1. Right. The point was what the echo configuration should look like. = Based on glancing at a couple of vendor configs that use echo, it's = mostly "use echo" as a boolean behavior. This is in contrast with = permitting the user to specify distinct echo vs. async timer values. I'm totally fine leaving the "on demand" case out of scope. -- Jeff From nobody Mon Aug 14 10:28:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 763C21323B3; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:28:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fnbTpj-nEPHS; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C33FE1323B1; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:28:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1092; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1502731683; x=1503941283; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=UyyVxFxh0vFXG3OayB6Ry+I7PudiNgNboQrZhd7JlIo=; b=OfWJEj8oI3BRcOs0F+Bvs/jwdqkcQBpGRnRGS4WZ2SyJeUK528l1deLo AHs3zmhAMj7IKA0PDHmYnAWLIp10iZpWMvqyuEwJgTpUPjUxJYpd6iNa6 X7BMGSj8gIUxbHL/65xV/83pCdF+nw926mNmZl6fCqrAYZlqdxYKkiWXa g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CPAQCm3JFZ/5JdJa1dGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBg1qBeAeeGYFulhiCEoVHAoR5QRYBAgEBAQEBAQFrKIUYAQEBAQI?= =?us-ascii?q?BeRACAQgOCi4yJQIEDgWKJwivTItiAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAR+DKIICg?= =?us-ascii?q?UyFCopnAQSgMQKUOpJVlhQBJggpgQp3FYdjdok+AYEOAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.41,374,1498521600"; d="scan'208";a="64560045" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Aug 2017 17:28:02 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-012.cisco.com (xch-rcd-012.cisco.com [173.37.102.22]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v7EHS21j010308 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:28:02 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) by XCH-RCD-012.cisco.com (173.37.102.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:28:02 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-005.cisco.com ([173.37.102.15]) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com ([173.37.102.15]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:28:02 -0500 From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" To: Jeffrey Haas CC: Mahesh Jethanandani , Yingzhen Qu , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bfd-yang@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-yang-06.txt Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-yang-06.txt Thread-Index: AQHS8drqXiPB9yzw8Uyz6SEnSzAzYaJFxYCAgBeSvYCAAT4qwIAGf4+AgAMdioCAABQjAP//8hkAgAASYgD///B3AIAAawoAgAAI1YCAAY+3gP//wcOAAAht2QAAApY1AACKkk0AAAcEyAAAAQL8AAAHDDsAAB4sBYAAAdJCAAACGL0AAoMA9QAADBQjgP//wfKA Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:28:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <773E4FFC-D66A-49E5-A03A-58B7DBA82D90@gmail.com> <20170731170550.GO24942@pfrc.org> <3637B198-8F82-4A85-A4A1-4383AF98088D@pfrc.org> <20170801144129.GC24942@pfrc.org> <20170801163340.GD24942@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.7.1.161129 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.64] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-ID: <12D87CD79B4E374FBBF23130703B9273@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:28:05 -0000 Jeff, I agree.=20 Regards, Reshad. On 2017-08-14, 1:10 PM, "Jeffrey Haas" wrote: > >> On Aug 14, 2017, at 11:24 AM, Reshad Rahman (rrahman) >> wrote: >>=20 >> I am gradually catching up to emails so I may not have absorbed all the >> emails I have gone through yet=A9. >>=20 >> Regarding echo config, we agreed in Chicago to remove the echo config >> based on the fact that implementations of echo are vendor specific. e.g. >> An implementation which has echo as continuous would likely have echo >> configuration whereas an implementation which has echo as on-demand may >> use RPC. There is an example of a vendor augmentation for echo config in >> Appendix A.1. > >Right. The point was what the echo configuration should look like. >Based on glancing at a couple of vendor configs that use echo, it's >mostly "use echo" as a boolean behavior. This is in contrast with >permitting the user to specify distinct echo vs. async timer values. > >I'm totally fine leaving the "on demand" case out of scope. > >-- Jeff > From nobody Mon Aug 14 10:56:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590781323BA; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:56:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P9WjtYDqh7GJ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A31731243F6; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id t128so42975943lff.2; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:56:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=thBwSSjmwkhPvj7Cf1SpY8JQsmC1HXDHnnUJG53VzoE=; b=EjpKeDvufn6s8Opd5enB1WhAn46nDeqk1VBBkT8g3oynXrn0DQGTT7Dfvgk082/6CF 4wK9NksVtibASbzEO9uZF9odxWD58YbvlHWQAz1o/4QIlRwrIRQdS3cfBv6wbIjmJFvw BQybXHCBWkL0+CyevK+hj/HfmhV7aRFDDZR4YKCorO2jnkxvh8xSIJIXmgki+38Gx1Gl VvePN9xegchFR/bxq2/9DMmlGEPZXxYH2WSHfQMTWNarW3Qx0N4eDlzwP3DposB19/cD izS+YIuDT52+z43TEt40YY25wC3rpICZF5yElfCIkwS76bEAyeNQxviTjL5oMfrcmrF3 J2JQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=thBwSSjmwkhPvj7Cf1SpY8JQsmC1HXDHnnUJG53VzoE=; b=Zb2Ttb6KnlSSm0gIum522IXZVmvATC08tAuPOxSaZ6Rkoe9ALMeo5dEHVd5gUgbrPu YZD68/0T2thh73am0LQjbKNz3AUGLvp3ulXbnorqQwiUUSqm9USqbgsupzUhVkgYJc7l 1u37GM3yzHGeZfIg9tfh5BuzvlzRPdBvjxQozZu/vTrcp6I6s7Xu27U8O+4Q0AehkKC6 E6JNrGgcm9tJtcMRcadh3DsDeRbW7JgQZs+AbFOnBCbjSabrh/+QdbEbY2kTsLjclOCC /vWYD6B/t3dPQl/GGrVRTKDVFj66LjXyyN8cT1rFryoTMsCdriT3xIhv1DW58hLwPRSg xCcQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5i+PYOTdTRFkufwiaQ/tEpY2KzqpFX6x+dwO5DcW5XbihtiRjAp WUqp8j+8cO8fBOWOLVKmQDpiCCwB/w== X-Received: by 10.46.69.87 with SMTP id s84mr9327679lja.129.1502733374682; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:56:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.88.81 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:56:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> References: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:56:13 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) To: Jeffrey Haas Cc: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , Thomas Nadeau , "kireeti@juniper.net" , Alia Atlas , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "mpls@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114b0cdafd7a8a0556ba609f" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:56:19 -0000 --001a114b0cdafd7a8a0556ba609f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Jeff, et al, greatly appreciate the most detailed analysis that explains the reasoning of the filed Errata. Please consider my in-lined and tagged with GIM>> notes. And since in the center of this discussion is LSP Ping, I've added MPLS WG. Best regards, Greg On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > [Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catch the > RFC authors' current accounts.] > > > The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up. Balaji submitted an errata, > which > provides us with a good place to start technical discussion. > > Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with > Balaji. > > > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: > > Section: 6 > > > > Original Text > > ------------- > > The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > > reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > > the BFD session. > > > > Corrected Text > > -------------- > > The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that > > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. > > > GIM>> I'll list quotes from RFC 4379 that, in my view, indicate that the echo reply is optional: - "... and returned unchanged by the receiver in the echo reply (if any)" - "When an MPLS echo request is received, the receiver is expected to verify that the control plane and data plane are both healthy (for the FEC Stack being pinged) and that the two planes are in sync." - " An LSR X that receives an MPLS echo request then processes it as follows." In my interpretation of these quotes, not only echo reply is optional (first quote) but even action by the echo request receiver (second). And the third, from section 4.4, that leads to '7. Send Reply Packet:' does not use normative language and thus we can interpret the whole section 4.4 as an example, recomendation to implementer. > > > Notes > > ----- > > It is not clear from the original text which of the following is > optional: > > - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply is > optional > > - The reply itself is optional > > > > Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to > report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. > GIM>> The purpose of the LSP Ping with BFD Discriminator TLV is to bootstrap BFD session, not to verify consistency of the control plane and the data plane. That is why, I believe, RFC 5884 explicitly mandates egress LSR to send BFD control packet first, before optionally sending echo reply. > > > > The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. > This was the intent of the original text. > > My opinion follows: > > In section 6 - > > : On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST > : send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of > : the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD > : Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the > : discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo > : request message. The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > : reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > : the BFD session. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR > : MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packets > : sent by the egress LSR. > > In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD > packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session. The receipt > of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional. > > This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the > BFD session to come up as fast as possible. > > The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such > replies. It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section 3.2. > > : Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP fault > : detection: > : > : i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD session as described > : later in this document. > : > : ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BFD session) > : packets at the required detection interval. > : > : iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the control plane > : against the data plane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to > : the same FEC, at the egress, as the ingress. > > iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails. > Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever. > GIM>> I believe that the suggested periodic LSP Ping SHOULD NOT include BFD Discriminator TLV and thus their processing would not follow the RFC 5884. As for the bootstrapping Echo requests, if the BFD control packets from egress LSR never arrive to the ingress, then the ingress will continue periodically send LSP ping with BFD Discriminator TLV for pre-defined time. > > However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving > that the LSP is up. Thus we have contradictory intent. > GIM>> I'd expect BFD session to go down if the LSP gets torn. If the data plane remains in tact even though LSP expected to be removed, then the suggested periodic verification of consistency between the control plane and the data plane should help. > > --- > > My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have > the BFD session come up by the most expedient means. I do not believe the > likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply". Among other things, that > seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures. GIM>> RFC 5884 is clear in giving priority to BFD process not only by stating "the egress LSR MUST send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR" but by referring to this before mentioning Echo reply. And I agree with the first part of your conclusion. But, as stated earlier in the thread, my interpretation of the reference to Echo reply "The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session" is different. In my understanding, sending of Echo reply is optional but if the egress LSR sends Echo reply, it MUST include BFD Discriminator TLV with value set to the local discriminator. Which is redundant and unnecessary for the ingress LSR. > Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the > Working Group: Debating intent and related text. > > -- Jeff > > --001a114b0cdafd7a8a0556ba609f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jeff, et al,
greatly appreciate the most detailed a= nalysis that explains the reasoning of the filed Errata. Please consider my= in-lined and tagged with GIM>> notes. And since in the center of thi= s discussion is LSP Ping, I've added MPLS WG.

= Best regards,
Greg

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc= .org> wrote:
[Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catc= h the
RFC authors' current accounts.]


The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up.=C2=A0 Balaji submitted an errata,= which
provides us with a good place to start technical discussion.

Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with
Balaji.


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote:
> Section: 6
>
> Original Text
> -------------
> The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
> reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for<= br> > the BFD session.
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
> The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session.<= br> >
GIM>> I'll list quotes from RFC = 4379 that, in my view, indicate that the echo reply is optional:
=
  • "...=C2=A0and returned= =C2=A0unchanged by the receiver in the echo reply (if any)"
    =
  • "When an= MPLS echo request is received, the receiver is expected to=C2=A0verify that the control p= lane and data plane are both healthy (for=C2=A0the FEC Stack being pinged) and that the tw= o planes are in sync."
  • " An LSR X that receives an MPLS echo reque= st then processes it as=C2=A0follows."
In my interpretation of these quotes,= not only echo reply is optional (first quote) but even action by the echo = request receiver (second). And the third, from section 4.4, that leads to &= #39;7. S= end Reply Packet:' does not use normative language and thus we can inte= rpret the whole section 4.4 as an example, recomendation to implementer.

>
> Notes
> -----
> It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optio= nal:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminato= r in the reply is optional
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 The reply itself is optional
>
> Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to= report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress.
GIM>> The purpose of the LSP Ping with BFD Discriminator TLV is= to bootstrap BFD session, not to verify consistency of the control plane a= nd the =C2=A0data plane. That is why, I believe, RFC 5884 explicitly mandat= es egress LSR to send BFD control packet first, before optionally sending e= cho reply.
>
> The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply= . This was the intent of the original text.

My opinion follows:

In section 6 -

:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress = LSR MUST
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validat= ion of
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds.=C2=A0= This BFD
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the<= br> :=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping = Echo
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 request message.=C2=A0 The egress LSR MAY respond with an LS= P Ping Echo
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reply message that carries the local = discriminator assigned by it for
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the BFD session.=C2=A0 The local discriminator assign= ed by the egress LSR
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD sessio= n packets
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sent by the egress LSR.

In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session.=C2=A0 The rec= eipt
of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional.

This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the=
BFD session to come up as fast as possible.

The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such
replies.=C2=A0 It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, sec= tion 3.2.

:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP= fault
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 detection:
:
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD s= ession as described
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 later in this document.
:
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BF= D session)
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 packets at the required detection inter= val.
:
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the contr= ol plane
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 against the data plane by ensuring that= the LSP is mapped to
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the same FEC, at the egress, as the ing= ress.

iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails.<= br> Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever.
GIM>> I believe that the suggested periodic LSP Ping SHOULD NOT= include BFD Discriminator TLV and thus their processing would not follow t= he RFC 5884. As for the bootstrapping Echo requests, if the BFD control pac= kets from egress LSR never arrive to the ingress, then the ingress will con= tinue periodically send LSP ping with BFD Discriminator TLV for pre-defined= time.=C2=A0

However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving<= br> that the LSP is up.=C2=A0 Thus we have contradictory intent.
GIM>> I'd expect BFD session to go down if the LSP gets to= rn. If the data plane remains in tact even though LSP expected to be remove= d, then the suggested periodic verification of consistency between the cont= rol plane and the data plane should help.=C2=A0

---

My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means.=C2=A0 I do not believe= the
likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply".=C2=A0 Among= other things, that
seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures.
GIM>> RFC 5884 is clear in giving priority to BFD process not = only by stating "= the egress LSR MUST=C2=A0send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR" but by referri= ng to this before mentioning Echo reply. And I agree with the first part of= your conclusion. But, as stated earlier in the thread, my interpretation o= f the reference to Echo reply
"The = egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo=C2=A0reply message that carries the local dis= criminator assigned by it for=C2=A0=C2=A0the BFD session"=C2=A0
is different. In my understanding, sending of Echo reply is= optional but if the egress LSR sends Echo reply, it MUST include BFD Discr= iminator TLV with value set to the local discriminator. Which is redundant = and unnecessary for the ingress LSR.

= =C2=A0

Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text.

-- Jeff


--001a114b0cdafd7a8a0556ba609f-- From nobody Mon Aug 14 11:12:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579871323C0; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:12:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6ZyVj-JqvBSA; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59B171323C8; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id o85so42978056lff.3; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:11:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8O0EH2c5jjVKFuK4NfSsGQ1KyEr5v/VWH7NdcSSBjk0=; b=TUl9qQ/xO9401U7iKdp74C5Boq9Bm/iWGz1SZpeV3N+bFMBGnMCSHicnn9TGBluLTW 61XJ9PxjHOkHjWX2tT2knMGhK08q+mtpqIxLWXvG7mgcbUqWCtVMqoULeFYdXMecPbb7 L5qkfHxWRfxRy50oYSoyUNoDFIiyMWeK7pMH/p6QYktmmogcFtRstYoW+3WWYhaH6HAn qt34PBN56SYi90pPk1gtAlDt9nwtr5mlhisLjB6J8zt6mOyJ25TVuS25RxVDsrSkIBar 5eevrUGGBXL6QD3CMyiyUH4nGzkG4NNSfAW4ik4SvpzSBGbmHDeHyMIDKELYO48GcEbS C6/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8O0EH2c5jjVKFuK4NfSsGQ1KyEr5v/VWH7NdcSSBjk0=; b=KfwBmanPIGxJAlphBZ9XUDJa1XjR/+i1sqpG2bqNFwHe9gVSlRTR6Aewn4k865xLJV Sb6HDpw4/uVflF40dpMwUg6Mmcu6lIVAn+Wjdpl5HFqvDJ0/7wW1MP1HQpKlZUXbiOuo KB3LT2EeCLrXANgBLAniWIf2nFPlvktG3zYYhZtI1HGTA/CV+I8cfKkl/OhyFlspASec vYqEZUlPkRYVQqFaRcS4hbC4efsSGQhWe80aiWDq6VFqsVrF5JE4EvRQ9vHSu2pfvG+U 9/qiG8oqiJShgxonhR/r55h+c1Ck+rXoUOQ6CTX2t+TNsauryqlN7zw9Yl1AvUgsXbR4 kxeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jEA2z0O2HKWL3esBL3Wkayjkrn6JkuJcMfO7BkpWFRb/4rkA54 JMcMKp0FWZtQuMpAtY+vtFS1MjGMSw== X-Received: by 10.46.76.18 with SMTP id z18mr8331497lja.111.1502734316504; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:11:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.88.81 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:11:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:11:55 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: Jeff Haas , "Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net)" , Tom Nadeau , "rtg-bfd@ietf. org" , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , Alia Atlas , "mpls@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045e9d24208d970556ba99e4" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 18:12:01 -0000 --f403045e9d24208d970556ba99e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carlos, thank you for sharing your view on how LSP Echo request with BFD Discriminator used to bootstrap a BFD session over MPLS LSP. I'm surprised that you refer to RFC 8029 as normative reference when commenting on RFC 5884. But even if we look into RFC 8029, it still has the same texts I've quoted in the previous note that suggest that echo reply is optional. Consider one of them "The Sender's Handle is filled in by the sender and returned unchanged by the receiver in the echo reply (if any)." Though English is my third language, I interpret "if any" in that sentence as clear indication that the echo reply may not be sent ever. Regards, Greg On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > Jeff, WG, > > I believe there is one additional consideration =E2=80=94 please see inli= ne. > > On Aug 11, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > > [Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catch t= he > RFC authors' current accounts.] > > > The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up. Balaji submitted an errata, > which > provides us with a good place to start technical discussion. > > Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with > Balaji. > > > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: > > Section: 6 > > Original Text > ------------- > The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > the BFD session. > > Corrected Text > -------------- > The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. > > > Notes > ----- > It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional= : > - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply is > optional > - The reply itself is optional > > Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to > report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. > > > This is correct =E2=80=94 but even more so, technically, it is not up to = RFC 5884 > to define when an LSP-Ping reply is optional or not. > > That=E2=80=99s=E2=80=99 up to https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section= -4.4 > > Lacking a Reply Mode set to "Do not reply" (https://tools.ietf.org/html/ > rfc8029#page-12) the RFC 8029 procedures dictate a response be sent, > independent of whether the RFC 5884 procedures use that information or no= t. > > More below. > > > The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. > This was the intent of the original text. > > > My opinion follows: > > In section 6 - > > : On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST > : send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of > : the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD > : Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the > : discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo > : request message. The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > : reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it fo= r > : the BFD session. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR > : MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packet= s > : sent by the egress LSR. > > In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD > packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session. The receip= t > of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional. > > This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want t= he > BFD session to come up as fast as possible. > > > Yes, especially because the first sentence says that the egress sending a > BFD Control packet implies FEC validation passed. However, > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4 does more than FEC > validation. > > > The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such > replies. It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section 3.= 2. > > : Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP fault > : detection: > : > : i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD session as describe= d > : later in this document. > : > : ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BFD session) > : packets at the required detection interval. > : > : iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the control plane > : against the data plane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to > : the same FEC, at the egress, as the ingress. > > iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails= . > Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever. > > However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information provin= g > that the LSP is up. Thus we have contradictory intent. > > --- > > My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have > the BFD session come up by the most expedient means. I do not believe th= e > likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply". Among other things, th= at > seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures. > > Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the > Working Group: Debating intent and related text. > > > My individual opinion is that, as written, RFC 5884 cannot mean any other > thing that =E2=80=9C The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo re= ply > message that > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session=E2= =80=9D. > > In other words, I support this errata. > > This is because RFC 5884 did not update RFC 4379=E2=80=99s procedures. An= d thus a > response is needed based on 8029 irregardless of whether 5884 uses it. > > That said, it is debatable whether that LSP Ping response is useful or > not. If it is not sent, it does not comply to 8029. But if the WG wants f= or > it to be not send, a new spec is needed. > > Thanks, > > -- Jeff > > > =E2=80=94 > Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com > > *=E2=80=9CSometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to ma= ke myself > sound more photosynthesis."* > > --f403045e9d24208d970556ba99e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Carlos,
thank you for sharing your view on how LSP = Echo request with BFD Discriminator used to bootstrap a BFD session over MP= LS LSP. I'm surprised that you refer to RFC 8029 as normative reference= when commenting on RFC 5884. But even if we look into RFC 8029, it still h= as the same texts I've quoted in the previous note that suggest that ec= ho reply is optional. Consider one of them "The Sender's Handle is filled in by the send= er and returned unchanged=C2=A0by the receiver in the echo reply (if any)." Though En= glish is my third language, I interpret "if any" in that sentence= as clear indication that the echo reply may not be sent ever.
=

=
Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Aug 1= 1, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <cpignata@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:
Jeff, WG,

I believe there is one additional consideration =E2=80=94 please see i= nline.

On Aug 11, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

[Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catc= h the
RFC authors' current accounts.]


The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up.=C2=A0 Balaji submitted an errata,= which
provides us with a good place to start technical discussion.

Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with
Balaji.


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote:
Section: 6

Original Text
-------------
The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session.

Corrected Text
--------------
The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that
MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session.


Notes
-----
It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional:<= br> =C2=A0- =C2=A0The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the re= ply is optional
=C2=A0- =C2=A0The reply itself is optional

Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to repo= rt LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress.

This is correct =E2=80=94 but even more so, technically, it is = not up to RFC 5884 to define when an LSP-Ping reply is optional or not.

That=E2=80=99s=E2=80=99 up to=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html= /rfc8029#section-4.4

Lacking a Reply Mode set to "Do not reply" (https://tools.iet= f.org/html/rfc8029#page-12) the RFC 8029 procedures dictate a resp= onse be sent, independent of whether the RFC 5884 procedures use that information or not.

More below.


The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. Thi= s was the intent of the original text.

My opinion follows:

In section 6 -

: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the eg= ress LSR MUST
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the va= lidation of
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds.= =C2=A0 This BFD
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to= the
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP = Ping Echo
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0request message.=C2=A0 The egress LSR MAY respond with = an LSP Ping Echo
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0reply message that carries the local discriminator assi= gned by it for
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the BFD session.=C2=A0 The local discriminator assigned= by the egress LSR
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD s= ession packets
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sent by the egress LSR.

In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session.=C2=A0 The rec= eipt
of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional.

This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the=
BFD session to come up as fast as possible.

Yes, especially because the first sentence says that the egress= sending a BFD Control packet implies FEC validation passed. However,=C2=A0= https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4=C2=A0does more than FEC validation.


The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such
replies.=C2=A0 It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, sec= tion 3.2.

: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPL= S LSP fault
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0detection:
:
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping= the BFD session as described
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0later in this docum= ent.
:
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection= (i.e., BFD session)
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0packets at the requ= ired detection interval.
:
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the = control plane
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0against the data pl= ane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the same FEC, at th= e egress, as the ingress.

iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails.<= br> Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever.

However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving<= br> that the LSP is up.=C2=A0 Thus we have contradictory intent.

---

My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means.=C2=A0 I do not believe= the
likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply".=C2=A0 Among= other things, that
seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures.

Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text. =C2=A0


My individual opinion is that, as written, RFC 5884 cannot mean= any other thing that =E2=80=9C The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Pin= g Echo reply message that
MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session= =E2=80=9D.

In other words, I support this errata.

This is because RFC 5884 did not update RFC 4379=E2=80=99s procedures.= And thus a response is needed based on 8029 irregardless of whether 5884 u= ses it.

That said, it is debatable whether that LSP Ping response is useful or= not. If it is not sent, it does not comply to 8029. But if the WG wants fo= r it to be not send, a new spec is needed.

Thanks,

-- Jeff


=E2=80=94
Carlos Pignataro,=C2=A0carlos@cisco.com

=E2=80=9CSometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to ma= ke myself sound more=C2=A0photosynthesis."


--f403045e9d24208d970556ba99e4-- From nobody Mon Aug 14 17:17:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B7513245F; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:17:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.519 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.519 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zd675gRBQomR; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2C6B132466; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:17:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=18775; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1502756233; x=1503965833; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=mMp4nCmUMhz0pldahjkl7AKPyLs1wSSkBUsX5//eAGM=; b=b+S/oXfG2UlHpMOBJ6DqZ/1ELeTgB4oy/auFtttwvNRzV5itFMRIsCpo MJ9J+qQFGIGRxOdMEJDYsyivHOc7AwGTClzvW+TGu31tm4SkhbYbIQRyo W6nOyChqgPO6W3a2Z2Px/OfFbF1eoRr7xXynKbU9e8Yk2dUOa9LXTEskE U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BSAQDhPJJZ/5FdJa1dGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBgm9rZDcBXI4RkBGBbog3iCyFNQ6CBCyDPIFfAoR5PxgBAgEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQFrKIUZBgxbEhACAQg/ByERFBECBA4FiUtMAxUQrzqHPQ2EIQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARgFgyiCAoFMgWMrgnyBPIEbgWkBEgGDYoIxBYl5jhSHaDw?= =?us-ascii?q?Ch1GHdIR1gg+FXYppiWSCToliAR84fwt3FUkSAYRLOQwQgWd2AYdYDRcHghQBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.41,375,1498521600"; d="scan'208,217";a="471464098" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 15 Aug 2017 00:17:12 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-003.cisco.com (xch-rtp-003.cisco.com [64.101.220.143]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v7F0HCOl012631 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Aug 2017 00:17:12 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-003.cisco.com (64.101.220.143) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 20:17:11 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 20:17:11 -0400 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Greg Mirsky CC: Tom Nadeau , "mpls@ietf.org" , "Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net)" , Alia Atlas , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf. org" Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) Thread-Topic: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) Thread-Index: AQHTEsasU87guosjHUWva6qlHRtDoKJ/rxSAgACYlQCABCd3gIAAIwDq Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 00:17:11 +0000 Message-ID: <7501E817-C95E-410A-A91E-080B36B213BE@cisco.com> References: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7501E817C95E410AA91E080B36B213BEciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 00:17:17 -0000 --_000_7501E817C95E410AA91E080B36B213BEciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg, This is my final email on this topic, since the arguments are now just sill= y and not technically constructive. 1. It's not about understanding English. It's about understanding specs! Th= e "(if any)" that you quote means there are situations in which there's no = echo reply. As I already explained to you, that's for example the case with= Reply-mode: No-reply. However, the "(if any)" does not mean an Echo Reply = is OPTIONAL. !! Or that you choose when a reply is not sent!! 2. RFC 8029 obsoleted 4379. But to my recollection, nothing changed relevan= t to this Errata. BFD for MPLS could have updated LSP ping behavior -- it just didn't. Sent from my iPad On Aug 14, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: Hi Carlos, thank you for sharing your view on how LSP Echo request with BFD Discrimina= tor used to bootstrap a BFD session over MPLS LSP. I'm surprised that you r= efer to RFC 8029 as normative reference when commenting on RFC 5884. But ev= en if we look into RFC 8029, it still has the same texts I've quoted in the= previous note that suggest that echo reply is optional. Consider one of th= em "The Sender's Handle is filled in by the sender and returned unchanged b= y the receiver in the echo reply (if any)." Though English is my third lang= uage, I interpret "if any" in that sentence as clear indication that the ec= ho reply may not be sent ever. Regards, Greg On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) > wrote: Jeff, WG, I believe there is one additional consideration =97 please see inline. On Aug 11, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Haas > wrote: [Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catch the RFC authors' current accounts.] The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up. Balaji submitted an errata, whic= h provides us with a good place to start technical discussion. Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with Balaji. On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: Section: 6 Original Text ------------- The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. Corrected Text -------------- The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. Notes ----- It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional: - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply is opt= ional - The reply itself is optional Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to repo= rt LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. This is correct =97 but even more so, technically, it is not up to RFC 5884= to define when an LSP-Ping reply is optional or not. That=92s=92 up to https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4 Lacking a Reply Mode set to "Do not reply" (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc= 8029#page-12) the RFC 8029 procedures dictate a response be sent, independe= nt of whether the RFC 5884 procedures use that information or not. More below. The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. Thi= s was the intent of the original text. My opinion follows: In section 6 - : On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST : send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of : the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD : Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the : discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo : request message. The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo : reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for : the BFD session. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR : MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packets : sent by the egress LSR. In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session. The receipt of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional. This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the BFD session to come up as fast as possible. Yes, especially because the first sentence says that the egress sending a B= FD Control packet implies FEC validation passed. However, https://tools.iet= f.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4 does more than FEC validation. The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such replies. It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section 3.2. : Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP fault : detection: : : i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD session as described : later in this document. : : ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BFD session) : packets at the required detection interval. : : iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the control plane : against the data plane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to : the same FEC, at the egress, as the ingress. iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails. Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever. However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving that the LSP is up. Thus we have contradictory intent. --- My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means. I do not believe the likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply". Among other things, that seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures. Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text. My individual opinion is that, as written, RFC 5884 cannot mean any other t= hing that =93 The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply messa= ge that MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session=94. In other words, I support this errata. This is because RFC 5884 did not update RFC 4379=92s procedures. And thus a= response is needed based on 8029 irregardless of whether 5884 uses it. That said, it is debatable whether that LSP Ping response is useful or not.= If it is not sent, it does not comply to 8029. But if the WG wants for it = to be not send, a new spec is needed. Thanks, -- Jeff =97 Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com =93Sometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to make myself= sound more photosynthesis." --_000_7501E817C95E410AA91E080B36B213BEciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greg,

This is my final email on this topic, since = the arguments are now just silly and not technically constructive. 

1. It's not about understanding English. It'= s about understanding specs! The "(if any)" that you quote means = there are situations in which there's no echo reply. As I already explained= to you, that's for example the case with Reply-mode: No-reply. However, the "(if any)" does not mean an Echo Reply is= OPTIONAL. !! Or that you choose when a reply is not sent!!
2. RFC 8029 obsoleted 4379. But to my recoll= ection, nothing changed relevant to this Errata. 

BFD for MPLS could have updated LSP ping beh= avior -- it just didn't. 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 14, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Carlos,
thank you for sharing your view on how LSP Echo request with BFD Discr= iminator used to bootstrap a BFD session over MPLS LSP. I'm surprised that = you refer to RFC 8029 as normative reference when commenting on RFC 5884. B= ut even if we look into RFC 8029, it still has the same texts I've quoted in the previous note that suggest = that echo reply is optional. Consider one of them "The Sender's Handle is filled in by the s= ender and returned unchanged by the receiver in the echo reply (if any)." Though English is my third = language, I interpret "if any" in that sentence as clear indicati= on that the echo reply may not be sent ever.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Carlos Pignatar= o (cpignata) <cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
Jeff, WG,

I believe there is one additional consideration =97 please see inline.=

On Aug 11, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

[Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catc= h the
RFC authors' current accounts.]


The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up.  Balaji submitted an errata,= which
provides us with a good place to start technical discussion.

Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with
Balaji.


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote:
Section: 6

Original Text
-------------
The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session.

Corrected Text
--------------
The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that
MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session.


Notes
-----
It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional:<= br>  -  The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the re= ply is optional
 -  The reply itself is optional

Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to repo= rt LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress.
This is correct =97 but even more so, technically, it is not up to RFC= 5884 to define when an LSP-Ping reply is optional or not.


Lacking a Reply Mode set to "Do not reply" (https://tools.iet= f.org/html/rfc8029#page-12) the RFC 8029 procedures dictate a resp= onse be sent, independent of whether the RFC 5884 procedures use that information or not.

More below.


The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. Thi= s was the intent of the original text.

My opinion follows:

In section 6 -

:    On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the eg= ress LSR MUST
:    send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the va= lidation of
:    the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds.&= nbsp; This BFD
:    Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to= the
:    discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP = Ping Echo
:    request message.  The egress LSR MAY respond with = an LSP Ping Echo
:    reply message that carries the local discriminator assi= gned by it for
:    the BFD session.  The local discriminator assigned= by the egress LSR
:    MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD s= ession packets
:    sent by the egress LSR.

In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session.  The rec= eipt
of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional.

This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the=
BFD session to come up as fast as possible.
Yes, especially because the first sentence says that the egress sendin= g a BFD Control packet implies FEC validation passed. However, http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4 does more than FEC validation.


The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such
replies.  It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section= 3.2.

:    Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPL= S LSP fault
:    detection:
:
:       i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping= the BFD session as described
:          later in this docum= ent.
:
:      ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection= (i.e., BFD session)
:          packets at the requ= ired detection interval.
:
:     iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the = control plane
:          against the data pl= ane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to
:          the same FEC, at th= e egress, as the ingress.

iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails.<= br> Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever.

However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving<= br> that the LSP is up.  Thus we have contradictory intent.

---

My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means.  I do not believe= the
likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply".  Among oth= er things, that
seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures.

Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text.  
My individual opinion is that, as written, RFC 5884 cannot mean any ot= her thing that =93 The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply = message that
MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session= =94.

In other words, I support this errata.

This is because RFC 5884 did not update RFC 4379=92s procedures. And t= hus a response is needed based on 8029 irregardless of whether 5884 uses it= .

That said, it is debatable whether that LSP Ping response is useful or= not. If it is not sent, it does not comply to 8029. But if the WG wants fo= r it to be not send, a new spec is needed.

Thanks,

-- Jeff


=97
Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com

=93Sometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to make mys= elf sound more photosynthesis."


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--=====_002_next=====-- --=====_001_next=====-- From nobody Tue Aug 15 00:56:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 559771200B9; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 00:56:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qIiexbiWzOwk; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 00:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1656A1324BE; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 00:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DMQ88350; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:56:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.38) by LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 08:56:21 +0100 Received: from DGGEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.210]) by DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::fca6:7568:4ee3:c776%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:56:18 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Greg Mirsky CC: Tom Nadeau , "mpls@ietf.org" , "Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net)" , Alia Atlas , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf. org" Subject: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) Thread-Topic: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) Thread-Index: AQHTEsao0oq28SGZ80W0g/sphrinjqJ+5emAgACYlgCABCd2gIAAZg6AgACgbkA= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:56:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> , <7501E817-C95E-410A-A91E-080B36B213BE@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7501E817-C95E-410A-A91E-080B36B213BE@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.194.201] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE29187C3DDdggeml508mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090203.5992A928.001C, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.3.210, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 70ab3dee68eb307c92a132c81414b68e Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:56:31 -0000 --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE29187C3DDdggeml508mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, IMHO, the point is not about whether the Echo Reply is optional for a norma= l LSP Ping, where the echo reply is totally controlled by the reply mode. For RFC5884, since the reply mode is not specified, based on the current te= xt, it can be interpreted as the following two ways: 1) it implies a new "mode" introduced, it's actually a "special" LSP P= ing, the process is just as what is currently described in the RFC: an Ech= o Reply is OPTINAL, whether and when to send Echo Reply is up to the egress= LSR, and the Ingress LSR should not assume an Echo reply will be returned; 2) the echo reply is still controlled by the reply mode, and given tha= t there is a "Do not reply" mode, the current text seems right, but not tha= t clear. I incline to think way (2) is more nature, if so, the proposed "Corrected = Text" may not work if the Sender set the reply mode to "Do not reply". I'd suggest: Original Text ------------- The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. NEW: The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. Whether to send an LSP Ping Echo reply message is determined by the reply mode carried the received Echo request message. Best regards, Mach From: Rtg-bfd [mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Pignata= ro (cpignata) Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 8:17 AM To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Tom Nadeau ; mpls@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella (= kireeti@juniper.net) ; Alia Atlas ;= Reshad Rahman (rrahman) ; rtg-bfd@ietf. org Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) Greg, This is my final email on this topic, since the arguments are now just sill= y and not technically constructive. 1. It's not about understanding English. It's about understanding specs! Th= e "(if any)" that you quote means there are situations in which there's no = echo reply. As I already explained to you, that's for example the case with= Reply-mode: No-reply. However, the "(if any)" does not mean an Echo Reply = is OPTIONAL. !! Or that you choose when a reply is not sent!! 2. RFC 8029 obsoleted 4379. But to my recollection, nothing changed relevan= t to this Errata. BFD for MPLS could have updated LSP ping behavior -- it just didn't. Sent from my iPad On Aug 14, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: Hi Carlos, thank you for sharing your view on how LSP Echo request with BFD Discrimina= tor used to bootstrap a BFD session over MPLS LSP. I'm surprised that you r= efer to RFC 8029 as normative reference when commenting on RFC 5884. But ev= en if we look into RFC 8029, it still has the same texts I've quoted in the= previous note that suggest that echo reply is optional. Consider one of th= em "The Sender's Handle is filled in by the sender and returned unchanged b= y the receiver in the echo reply (if any)." Though English is my third lang= uage, I interpret "if any" in that sentence as clear indication that the ec= ho reply may not be sent ever. Regards, Greg On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) > wrote: Jeff, WG, I believe there is one additional consideration - please see inline. On Aug 11, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Haas > wrote: [Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catch the RFC authors' current accounts.] The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up. Balaji submitted an errata, whic= h provides us with a good place to start technical discussion. Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with Balaji. On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: Section: 6 Original Text ------------- The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. Corrected Text -------------- The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. Notes ----- It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional: - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply is opt= ional - The reply itself is optional Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to repo= rt LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. This is correct - but even more so, technically, it is not up to RFC 5884 t= o define when an LSP-Ping reply is optional or not. That's' up to https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4 Lacking a Reply Mode set to "Do not reply" (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc= 8029#page-12) the RFC 8029 procedures dictate a response be sent, independe= nt of whether the RFC 5884 procedures use that information or not. More below. The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. Thi= s was the intent of the original text. My opinion follows: In section 6 - : On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST : send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of : the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD : Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the : discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo : request message. The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo : reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for : the BFD session. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR : MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packets : sent by the egress LSR. In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session. The receipt of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional. This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the BFD session to come up as fast as possible. Yes, especially because the first sentence says that the egress sending a B= FD Control packet implies FEC validation passed. However, https://tools.iet= f.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4 does more than FEC validation. The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such replies. It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section 3.2. : Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP fault : detection: : : i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD session as described : later in this document. : : ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BFD session) : packets at the required detection interval. : : iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the control plane : against the data plane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to : the same FEC, at the egress, as the ingress. iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails. Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever. However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving that the LSP is up. Thus we have contradictory intent. --- My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means. I do not believe the likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply". Among other things, that seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures. Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text. My individual opinion is that, as written, RFC 5884 cannot mean any other t= hing that " The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message= that MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session". In other words, I support this errata. This is because RFC 5884 did not update RFC 4379's procedures. And thus a r= esponse is needed based on 8029 irregardless of whether 5884 uses it. That said, it is debatable whether that LSP Ping response is useful or not.= If it is not sent, it does not comply to 8029. But if the WG wants for it = to be not send, a new spec is needed. Thanks, -- Jeff - Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com "Sometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to make myself s= ound more photosynthesis." --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE29187C3DDdggeml508mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= Hi all,

=  

= IMHO, the point is not about whether the Echo Reply is optio= nal for a normal LSP Ping, where the echo reply is totally controlled by the reply mode.

=  

= For RFC5884, since the reply mode is not specified, based on= the current text, it can be interpreted as the following two ways:

1)      it implies a new “mode” in= troduced, it’s actually a “special” LSP Ping,  the p= rocess is just as what is currently described in the RFC: an Echo Reply is OPTINAL, = whether and when to send Echo Reply is up to the egress LSR, and the Ingres= s LSR should not assume an Echo reply will be returned;

2)      the echo reply is still controlled by = the reply mode, and given that there is a “Do not reply” mode, the current text seems right, but not that clear. =

=  

= I incline to think way (2) is more nature, if so,  the = proposed “Corrected Text” may not work if the Sender set the reply mode to “Do not reply”.

=  

= I’d suggest:

=  

Original Text
-------------
The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session.

 

NEW:

The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session. Whether to send an LSP Ping Echo reply message is

determined by the reply mode carried the received Ec= ho request message.  

=  

= Best regards,

= Mach

=  

From: Rtg-bfd [mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org] On B= ehalf Of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 20= 17 8:17 AM
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimir= sky@gmail.com>
Cc: Tom Nadeau <tnadeau@l= ucidvision.com>; mpls@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net) &= lt;kireeti@juniper.net>; Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>; Reshad Ra= hman (rrahman) <rrahman@cisco.com>; rtg-bfd@ietf. org <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Technical Erra= ta Reported] RFC5884 (5085)

 

Greg,

 

This is my final email on this topic, since the argu= ments are now just silly and not technically constructive. =

 

1. It's not about understanding English. It's about = understanding specs! The "(if any)" that you quote means there ar= e situations in which there's no echo reply. As I already explained to you, that's for example the case with Reply-mode: No-= reply. However, the "(if any)" does not mean an Echo Reply is OPT= IONAL. !! Or that you choose when a reply is not sent!!

2. RFC 8029 obsoleted 4379. But to my recollection, = nothing changed relevant to this Errata. 

 

BFD for MPLS could have updated LSP ping behavior --= it just didn't. 


Sent from my iPad


On Aug 14, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Carlos,

thank you for sharing your view on how LSP Echo requ= est with BFD Discriminator used to bootstrap a BFD session over MPLS LSP. I= 'm surprised that you refer to RFC 8029 as normative reference when commenting on RFC 5884. But even if we look in= to RFC 8029, it still has the same texts I've quoted in the previous note t= hat suggest that echo reply is optional. Consider one of them "= The Sender's Handle is filled in by the sender and returned unchanged by = the receiver in the echo reply (if any)." Though English is my third l= anguage, I interpret "if any" in that sentence as clear indicatio= n that the echo reply may not be sent ever.

 

Regards,

Greg<= /o:p>

 

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Carlos Pignataro (c= pignata) <cpigna= ta@cisco.com> wrote:

Jeff, WG,

 

I believe there is one additional consideration R= 12; please see inline.

 

On Aug 11, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:=

 

[Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the head= ers to try to catch the
RFC authors' current accounts.]


The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up.  Balaji submitted an errata,= which
provides us with a good place to start technical discussion.

Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with
Balaji.


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote:

Section: 6

Original Text
-------------
The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session.

Corrected Text
--------------
The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that
MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session.


Notes
-----
It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional:<= br>  -  The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the re= ply is optional
 -  The reply itself is optional

Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to repo= rt LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress.

 

This is correct — but even more so, technicall= y, it is not up to RFC 5884 to define when an LSP-Ping reply is optional or= not.

 

 

Lacking a Reply Mode set to "Do not reply"= (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#page-12) the RFC 8029 procedures dictate a response be sent, independent of whether the= RFC 5884 procedures use that information or not.<= /p>

 

More below.




The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. Thi= s was the intent of the original text.


My opinion follows:

In section 6 -

:    On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the eg= ress LSR MUST
:    send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the va= lidation of
:    the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds.&= nbsp; This BFD
:    Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to= the
:    discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP = Ping Echo
:    request message.  The egress LSR MAY respond with = an LSP Ping Echo
:    reply message that carries the local discriminator assi= gned by it for
:    the BFD session.  The local discriminator assigned= by the egress LSR
:    MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD s= ession packets
:    sent by the egress LSR.

In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session.  The rec= eipt
of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional.

This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the=
BFD session to come up as fast as possible.

 

Yes, especially because the first sentence says that= the egress sending a BFD Control packet implies FEC validation passed. How= ever, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4 does more than FEC validation.




The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such
replies.  It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section= 3.2.

:    Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPL= S LSP fault
:    detection:
:
:       i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping= the BFD session as described
:          later in this docum= ent.
:
:      ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection= (i.e., BFD session)
:          packets at the requ= ired detection interval.
:
:     iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the = control plane
:          against the data pl= ane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to
:          the same FEC, at th= e egress, as the ingress.

iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails.<= br> Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever.

However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving<= br> that the LSP is up.  Thus we have contradictory intent.

---

My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means.  I do not believe= the
likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply".  Among oth= er things, that
seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures.

Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text.  

 

My individual opinion is that, as written, RFC 5884 = cannot mean any other thing that “ The egress LSR MUST respond with a= n LSP Ping Echo reply message that

MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for= the BFD session”.

 

In other words, I support this errata.

 

This is because RFC 5884 did not update RFC 4379R= 17;s procedures. And thus a response is needed based on 8029 irregardless o= f whether 5884 uses it.

 

That said, it is debatable whether that LSP Ping res= ponse is useful or not. If it is not sent, it does not comply to 8029. But = if the WG wants for it to be not send, a new spec is needed.

 

Thanks,



-- Jeff

 

—

Carlos Pignataro, <= a href=3D"mailto:carlos@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">carlos@cisco.com
“Sometimes I use big words that = I do not fully understand, to make myself sound more photosynthesis.&q= uot;

 

 

--_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE29187C3DDdggeml508mbxchi_-- From nobody Tue Aug 15 05:43:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A440D12008A; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 05:16:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.519 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.519 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0xQWro1iERy2; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 05:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EF8A13219B; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 05:16:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=46755; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1502799403; x=1504009003; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=PsoH5LKpG4d13Gwz12Vkx5CvKb8Ooty/WPUgfC6D3J0=; b=G9PEgTz+ZgUx3JInnNFGvaW7VfZlhz4wDC9Iw9iVkco5U9GATvGATw5I QNdE2HJ6hRDVTyKAr2RdD4ZuTCn9iTJW82BD/fAMAVyrQZC7oXYHCIXYS 97ylVWgvOGEktwrhnVKKVTb1ACMaRp6vTCjw5y9gcVvfiMSwAAfEGSTtk 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CfAQCm5ZJZ/4YNJK1dGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBgm9rZDgBXAeOCpAQgW6IN41hDoIELIM8gV8ChDE/GAECAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAWsohRgBAQEEDAIMEzgCEhACAQgRBAEBIQEGByERFAkIAgQBDQUIiUNMAxUQr?= =?us-ascii?q?yuHOg2EIQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARgFgyiCAoFMgWODJ4E8gRuBaQE?= =?us-ascii?q?SAVWFPgWJeY4ah2s8AodRh3eEbYIYhV+Ka4lmgk+JYgEfOH8LdxVJhF45HIFnd?= =?us-ascii?q?gGHdw0XB4EFgQ8BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.41,377,1498521600"; d="scan'208,217";a="471838703" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 15 Aug 2017 12:16:41 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (xch-rcd-005.cisco.com [173.37.102.15]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v7FCGfjQ005538 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Aug 2017 12:16:41 GMT Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:16:40 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com ([173.36.7.11]) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com ([173.36.7.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:16:40 -0500 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: Mach Chen , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Greg Mirsky CC: Tom Nadeau , "mpls@ietf.org" , "Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net)" , Alia Atlas , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf. org" Subject: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) Thread-Topic: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) Thread-Index: AQHTEsardUdhCyxqXUiFhH3vY6n7oKJ/v9eAgACYlQCABCd3gIAAZg6AgACARYD//+32kA== Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 12:16:39 +0000 Message-ID: <4bb63466962c4957a594e73163329940@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> References: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> , <7501E817-C95E-410A-A91E-080B36B213BE@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.30.127] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4bb63466962c4957a594e73163329940XCHALN001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 05:43:20 -0700 X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 12:16:47 -0000 --_000_4bb63466962c4957a594e73163329940XCHALN001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I tend to agree with Mach - and I think what Mach states is also reinforcin= g the point that Carlos has made - which is that echo reply procedures are = defined by RFC 8029 - not by RFC 5884. However, the current text suffers from much more than the ambiguity regardi= ng Echo Reply. 1)Second paragraph of Section 6 goes back and forth between discussing BFD = Control packets, then Echo Reply, then BFD Control Packets 2)Third paragraph of Section 6 has an inappropriate use of "," in the sente= nce: "The BFD Control packets from the ingress to the egress LSR MUST set the local discriminator of the egress LSR, in the Your Discriminator field." 3)Section 6.1 defines when the BFD Discriminator TLV MUST be sent and when = it is optional in LSP ping. There is actually no need for Section 6 to say = anything in this regard. I propose revised text below - which is much more extensive in its changes = than what has been proposed thus far, but I think it is necessary to elimin= ate all ambiguity. That said, there is no question that the current text is subject to multipl= e interpretations - so any change in text runs the risk of introducing new = interoperability issues. On balance it is probably necessary to take this r= isk as there is no guarantee that implementations are interoperable today, = but the WG should still consider this point carefully. The text below replaces current paragraphs 2 and 3 of Section 6. On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo request message. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packets sent by the egress LSR. The ingress LSR follows the procedures in [BFD] to send BFD Control packets to the egress LSR in response to the BFD Control packets received from the egress LSR. The BFD Control packets from the ingress to the egress LSR MUST set the local discriminator of the egress LSR in the Your Discriminator field. The egress LSR demultiplexes the BFD session based on the received Your Discriminator field. As mentioned above, the egress LSR MUST send Control packets to the ingress LSR with the Your Discriminator field set to the local discriminator of the ingress LSR. The ingress LSR uses this to demultiplex the BFD session. The egress LSR follows the procedures defined in [RFC 8029] to determine = when to respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message. Les From: Rtg-bfd [mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mach Chen Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 12:56 AM To: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Greg Mirsky Cc: Tom Nadeau; mpls@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net); Alia= Atlas; Reshad Rahman (rrahman); rtg-bfd@ietf. org Subject: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) Hi all, IMHO, the point is not about whether the Echo Reply is optional for a norma= l LSP Ping, where the echo reply is totally controlled by the reply mode. For RFC5884, since the reply mode is not specified, based on the current te= xt, it can be interpreted as the following two ways: 1) it implies a new "mode" introduced, it's actually a "special" LSP P= ing, the process is just as what is currently described in the RFC: an Ech= o Reply is OPTINAL, whether and when to send Echo Reply is up to the egress= LSR, and the Ingress LSR should not assume an Echo reply will be returned; 2) the echo reply is still controlled by the reply mode, and given tha= t there is a "Do not reply" mode, the current text seems right, but not tha= t clear. I incline to think way (2) is more nature, if so, the proposed "Corrected = Text" may not work if the Sender set the reply mode to "Do not reply". I'd suggest: Original Text ------------- The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. NEW: The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. Whether to send an LSP Ping Echo reply message is determined by the reply mode carried the received Echo request message. Best regards, Mach From: Rtg-bfd [mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Pignata= ro (cpignata) Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 8:17 AM To: Greg Mirsky > Cc: Tom Nadeau >; m= pls@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net) >; Alia Atlas >; Reshad Rahman= (rrahman) >; rtg-bfd@ietf. org= > Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) Greg, This is my final email on this topic, since the arguments are now just sill= y and not technically constructive. 1. It's not about understanding English. It's about understanding specs! Th= e "(if any)" that you quote means there are situations in which there's no = echo reply. As I already explained to you, that's for example the case with= Reply-mode: No-reply. However, the "(if any)" does not mean an Echo Reply = is OPTIONAL. !! Or that you choose when a reply is not sent!! 2. RFC 8029 obsoleted 4379. But to my recollection, nothing changed relevan= t to this Errata. BFD for MPLS could have updated LSP ping behavior -- it just didn't. Sent from my iPad On Aug 14, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: Hi Carlos, thank you for sharing your view on how LSP Echo request with BFD Discrimina= tor used to bootstrap a BFD session over MPLS LSP. I'm surprised that you r= efer to RFC 8029 as normative reference when commenting on RFC 5884. But ev= en if we look into RFC 8029, it still has the same texts I've quoted in the= previous note that suggest that echo reply is optional. Consider one of th= em "The Sender's Handle is filled in by the sender and returned unchanged b= y the receiver in the echo reply (if any)." Though English is my third lang= uage, I interpret "if any" in that sentence as clear indication that the ec= ho reply may not be sent ever. Regards, Greg On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) > wrote: Jeff, WG, I believe there is one additional consideration - please see inline. On Aug 11, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Haas > wrote: [Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catch the RFC authors' current accounts.] The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up. Balaji submitted an errata, whic= h provides us with a good place to start technical discussion. Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with Balaji. On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: Section: 6 Original Text ------------- The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. Corrected Text -------------- The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. Notes ----- It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional: - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply is opt= ional - The reply itself is optional Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to repo= rt LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. This is correct - but even more so, technically, it is not up to RFC 5884 t= o define when an LSP-Ping reply is optional or not. That's' up to https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4 Lacking a Reply Mode set to "Do not reply" (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc= 8029#page-12) the RFC 8029 procedures dictate a response be sent, independe= nt of whether the RFC 5884 procedures use that information or not. More below. The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. Thi= s was the intent of the original text. My opinion follows: In section 6 - : On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST : send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of : the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD : Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the : discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo : request message. The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo : reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for : the BFD session. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR : MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packets : sent by the egress LSR. In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session. The receipt of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional. This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the BFD session to come up as fast as possible. Yes, especially because the first sentence says that the egress sending a B= FD Control packet implies FEC validation passed. However, https://tools.iet= f.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4 does more than FEC validation. The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such replies. It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section 3.2. : Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP fault : detection: : : i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD session as described : later in this document. : : ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BFD session) : packets at the required detection interval. : : iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the control plane : against the data plane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to : the same FEC, at the egress, as the ingress. iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails. Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever. However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving that the LSP is up. Thus we have contradictory intent. --- My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means. I do not believe the likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply". Among other things, that seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures. Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text. My individual opinion is that, as written, RFC 5884 cannot mean any other t= hing that " The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message= that MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session". In other words, I support this errata. This is because RFC 5884 did not update RFC 4379's procedures. And thus a r= esponse is needed based on 8029 irregardless of whether 5884 uses it. That said, it is debatable whether that LSP Ping response is useful or not.= If it is not sent, it does not comply to 8029. But if the WG wants for it = to be not send, a new spec is needed. Thanks, -- Jeff - Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com "Sometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to make myself s= ound more photosynthesis." --_000_4bb63466962c4957a594e73163329940XCHALN001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I tend to agree with Mach= – and I think what Mach states is also reinforcing the point that Ca= rlos has made – which is that echo reply procedures are defined by RFC 8029 – not by RFC 5884.

 <= /p>

However, the current text= suffers from much more than the ambiguity regarding Echo Reply.=

 <= /p>

1)Second paragraph of Sec= tion 6 goes back and forth between discussing BFD Control packets, then Ech= o Reply, then BFD Control Packets

 <= /p>

2)Third paragraph of Sect= ion 6 has an inappropriate use of “,” in the sentence:

 <= /p>

“The BFD Control pa= ckets from the

   ingress to t= he egress LSR MUST set the local discriminator of the

   egress LSR, in the Your Discriminator field.”<= o:p>

 <= /p>

3)Section 6.1 defines whe= n the BFD Discriminator TLV MUST be sent and when it is optional in LSP pin= g. There is actually no need for Section 6 to say anything in this regard.

 <= /p>

I propose revised text be= low – which is much more extensive in its changes than what has been = proposed thus far, but I think it is necessary to eliminate all ambiguity.

That said, there is no qu= estion that the current text is subject to multiple interpretations –= so any change in text runs the risk of introducing new interoperability issues. On balance it is probably necessary to take this risk as there is = no guarantee that implementations are interoperable today, but the WG shoul= d still consider this point carefully.

 <= /p>

The text below replaces c= urrent paragraphs 2 and 3 of Section 6.

 <= /p>

<new text start>

On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST

   send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the vali= dation of

   the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds.&nb= sp; This BFD

   Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to t= he

   discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Pi= ng Echo

   request message.    The local discriminato= r assigned by the egress LSR

   MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD ses= sion packets

   sent by the egress LSR.

 

   The ingress LSR follows the procedures in [BFD] to send B= FD Control

   packets to the egress LSR in response to the BFD Control = packets

   received from the egress LSR.  The BFD Control packe= ts from the

   ingress to the egress LSR MUST set the local discriminato= r of the

   egress LSR in the Your Discriminator field.  The egr= ess LSR

   demultiplexes the BFD session based on the received Your<= o:p>

   Discriminator field.  As mentioned above, the egress= LSR MUST send

   Control packets to the ingress LSR with the Your Discrimi= nator field

   set to the local discriminator of the ingress LSR.  = The ingress LSR

   uses this to demultiplex the BFD session.

 

  The egress LSR follows the procedures defined in [RFC 8029] to = determine when to respond with an LSP Ping Echo  reply message.

<new text end>

 <= /p>

    Les

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: Rtg-bfd = [mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mach Chen
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 12:56 AM
To: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Greg Mirsky
Cc: Tom Nadeau; mpls@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net= ); Alia Atlas; Reshad Rahman (rrahman); rtg-bfd@ietf. org
Subject: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)

 

Hi all,=

 <= /p>

IMHO, the point is not ab= out whether the Echo Reply is optional for a normal LSP Ping, where the ech= o reply is totally controlled by the reply mode.

 <= /p>

For RFC5884, since the re= ply mode is not specified, based on the current text, it can be interpreted= as the following two ways:

1) &nb= sp;    it implies a new “mode” intro= duced, it’s actually a “special” LSP Ping,  the proc= ess is just as what is currently described in the RFC: an Echo Reply is OPT= INAL, whether and when to send Echo Reply is up to the egress LSR, and the Ingress LSR s= hould not assume an Echo reply will be returned;

2) &nb= sp;    the echo reply is still controlled by the= reply mode, and given that there is a “Do not reply” mode, the= current text seems right, but not that clear.

 <= /p>

I incline to think way (2= ) is more nature, if so,  the proposed “Corrected Text” ma= y not work if the Sender set the reply mode to “Do not reply”.<= o:p>

 <= /p>

I’d suggest:

 <= /p>

Original Text
-------------
The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session.

 

NEW:

The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session. Whether to send an LSP Ping Echo reply message is

determined by the reply mode carried the received Ec= ho request message.  

 <= /p>

Best regards,<= /span>

Mach

 <= /p>

From: Rtg-bf= d [mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.= org] On Behalf Of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 8:17 AM
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimi= rsky@gmail.com>
Cc: Tom Nadeau <tnadea= u@lucidvision.com>; mpls@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net) <kireeti@juniper.net>; Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>; Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@c= isco.com>; rtg-bfd@ietf. org <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)

 

Greg,

 

This is my final email on this topic, since the argu= ments are now just silly and not technically constructive. =

 

1. It's not about understanding English. It's about = understanding specs! The "(if any)" that you quote means there ar= e situations in which there's no echo reply. As I already explained to you,= that's for example the case with Reply-mode: No-reply. However, the "(if any)" does not mean an Echo Reply is= OPTIONAL. !! Or that you choose when a reply is not sent!!

2. RFC 8029 obsoleted 4379. But to my recollection, = nothing changed relevant to this Errata. 

 

BFD for MPLS could have updated LSP ping behavior --= it just didn't. 


Sent from my iPad


On Aug 14, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Carlos,

thank you for sharing your view on how LSP Echo requ= est with BFD Discriminator used to bootstrap a BFD session over MPLS LSP. I= 'm surprised that you refer to RFC 8029 as normative reference when comment= ing on RFC 5884. But even if we look into RFC 8029, it still has the same texts I've quoted in the previous not= e that suggest that echo reply is optional. Consider one of them "The Sender's Handle is filled in b= y the sender and returned unchanged by the receiver in the echo reply (if any)." Though English is my third = language, I interpret "if any" in that sentence as clear indicati= on that the echo reply may not be sent ever.

 

Regards= ,

Greg

 

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Carlos Pignataro (c= pignata) <cpigna= ta@cisco.com> wrote:

Jeff, WG,

 

I believe there is one additional consideration R= 12; please see inline.

 

On Aug 11, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:=

 

[Note that I have adj= usted the addresses in the headers to try to catch the
RFC authors' current accounts.]


The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up.  Balaji submitted an errata,= which
provides us with a good place to start technical discussion.

Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with
Balaji.


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote:

Section: 6

Original Text
-------------
The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session.

Corrected Text
--------------
The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that
MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session.


Notes
-----
It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional:<= br>  -  The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the re= ply is optional
 -  The reply itself is optional

Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to repo= rt LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress.

 

This is correct — but even more so, technicall= y, it is not up to RFC 5884 to define when an LSP-Ping reply is optional or= not.

 

 

Lacking a Reply Mode set to "Do not reply"= (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#page-12) the RFC 8029 procedures d= ictate a response be sent, independent of whether the RFC 5884 procedures use that information or not.

 

More below.

 


The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. Thi= s was the intent of the original text.


My opinion follows:

In section 6 -

:    On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the eg= ress LSR MUST
:    send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the va= lidation of
:    the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds.&= nbsp; This BFD
:    Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to= the
:    discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP = Ping Echo
:    request message.  The egress LSR MAY respond with = an LSP Ping Echo
:    reply message that carries the local discriminator assi= gned by it for
:    the BFD session.  The local discriminator assigned= by the egress LSR
:    MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD s= ession packets
:    sent by the egress LSR.

In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session.  The rec= eipt
of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional.

This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the=
BFD session to come up as fast as possible.

 

Yes, especially because the first sentence says that= the egress sending a BFD Control packet implies FEC validation passed. How= ever, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4 does more than FEC validation.

 


The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such
replies.  It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section= 3.2.

:    Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPL= S LSP fault
:    detection:
:
:       i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping= the BFD session as described
:          later in this docum= ent.
:
:      ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection= (i.e., BFD session)
:          packets at the requ= ired detection interval.
:
:     iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the = control plane
:          against the data pl= ane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to
:          the same FEC, at th= e egress, as the ingress.

iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails.<= br> Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever.

However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving<= br> that the LSP is up.  Thus we have contradictory intent.

---

My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means.  I do not believe= the
likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply".  Among oth= er things, that
seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures.

Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text.  

 

My individual opinion is that, as written, RFC 5884 = cannot mean any other thing that “ The egress LSR MUST respond with a= n LSP Ping Echo reply message that

MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for= the BFD session”.

 

In other words, I support this errata.

 

This is because RFC 5884 did not update RFC 4379R= 17;s procedures. And thus a response is needed based on 8029 irregardless o= f whether 5884 uses it.

 

That said, it is debatable whether that LSP Ping res= ponse is useful or not. If it is not sent, it does not comply to 8029. But = if the WG wants for it to be not send, a new spec is needed.

 

Thanks,

 

-- Jeff

 

—

Carlos Pignataro, <= a href=3D"mailto:carlos@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">carlos@cisco.com
“Sometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to make= myself sound more photosynthesis."

 

 

--_000_4bb63466962c4957a594e73163329940XCHALN001ciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Aug 15 08:20:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5CE1321D8 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 08:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dH3rXl4fOJJ1 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 08:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM03-BY2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2nam03on0125.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.42.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FC7D1321EB for ; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Aug 2017 15:20:28.1246 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR05MB3355 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:20:32 -0000 As a co-author, I can say that the intent was that the LSP ping reply be se= nt, but the BFD discriminator be optional. Not sending an LSP ping reply c= ould lead to the LSP being torn down. The basic idea here is to use LSP ping to bootstrap a bfd session. But the= semantics of LSP ping don't change; not sending a reply indicates that the= LSP is down.=20 Kireeti > On Aug 11, 2017, at 10:39, Jeffrey Haas wrote: >=20 > [Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catch t= he > RFC authors' current accounts.] >=20 >=20 > The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up. Balaji submitted an errata, wh= ich > provides us with a good place to start technical discussion. >=20 > Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with > Balaji. >=20 >=20 >> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: >> Section: 6 >>=20 >> Original Text >> ------------- >> The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo >> reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for >> the BFD session. >>=20 >> Corrected Text >> -------------- >> The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that >> MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. >>=20 >>=20 >> Notes >> ----- >> It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optiona= l: >> - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply is = optional >> - The reply itself is optional >>=20 >> Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to r= eport LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. >>=20 >> The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. = This was the intent of the original text. >=20 > My opinion follows: >=20 > In section 6 -=20 >=20 > : On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST > : send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of > : the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD > : Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the > : discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo > : request message. The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > : reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it fo= r > : the BFD session. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR > : MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packet= s > : sent by the egress LSR. >=20 > In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD > packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session. The receip= t > of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional. >=20 > This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want t= he > BFD session to come up as fast as possible. >=20 > The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such > replies. It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section 3.= 2. >=20 > : Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP fault > : detection: > :=20 > : i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD session as describe= d > : later in this document. > :=20 > : ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BFD session) > : packets at the required detection interval. > :=20 > : iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the control plane > : against the data plane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to > : the same FEC, at the egress, as the ingress. >=20 > iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails= . > Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever. >=20 > However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information provin= g > that the LSP is up. Thus we have contradictory intent. >=20 > --- >=20 > My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have > the BFD session come up by the most expedient means. I do not believe th= e > likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply". Among other things, th= at > seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures. >=20 > Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the > Working Group: Debating intent and related text. =20 >=20 > -- Jeff From nobody Tue Aug 15 08:22:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C5E1321EB for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 08:22:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lucidvision.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7QZ67GwiYHfR for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 08:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lucidvision.com (lucidab1.miniserver.com [78.31.106.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 602EE1321CB for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 08:22:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lucidvision.com; s=default; t=1502810405; bh=xS/Eev8bUvIWctA7IiW8MROuwzNMqDyszeKX91GKpCI=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=s7AV9cS6C18xTFePFR50N5z4vXrNDrCQGVR252YqYGJ1K3JI/2xUoCu0A9FoyEJV/ Syh9LbRsj5+CnTFIMpqywatYTPjXaD+IYKCK4zNKP1y1iNCvse2kHMf33tur12143s 8HncunFwKiIYjGWqBsm+bjfzFdxTGfJdEA6fiKtE= X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=50.255.148.181; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) From: Thomas Nadeau In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:22:01 -0400 Cc: Jeffrey Haas , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "swallow.ietf@gmail.com" , "akatlas@gmail.com" , "db3546@att.com" , "aretana@cisco.com" , "rrahman@cisco.com" , Balaji Rajagopalan Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> To: kompella kireeti X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Authenticated-User: tnadeau@lucidvision.com X-Info: aspam skipped due to (g_smite_skip_relay) X-Encryption: SSL encrypted X-MyRbl: Color=Yellow Age=0 Spam=0 Notspam=2 Stars=0 Good=0 Friend=0 Surbl=0 Catch=0 r=0 ip=50.255.148.181 X-IP-stats: Notspam Incoming Last 0, First 823, in=6370, out=0, spam=0 Known=true ip=50.255.148.181 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:22:21 -0000 > On Aug 15, 2017:11:20 AM, at 11:20 AM, Kireeti Kompella = wrote: >=20 > As a co-author, I can say that the intent was that the LSP ping reply = be sent, but the BFD discriminator be optional. Not sending an LSP ping = reply could lead to the LSP being torn down. >=20 > The basic idea here is to use LSP ping to bootstrap a bfd session. = But the semantics of LSP ping don't change; not sending a reply = indicates that the LSP is down.=20 >=20 > Kireeti That is exactly my recollection of how we designed (and = implemented) this too. =E2=80=94Tom >=20 >> On Aug 11, 2017, at 10:39, Jeffrey Haas wrote: >>=20 >> [Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to = catch the >> RFC authors' current accounts.] >>=20 >>=20 >> The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up. Balaji submitted an = errata, which >> provides us with a good place to start technical discussion. >>=20 >> Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata = with >> Balaji. >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: >>> Section: 6 >>>=20 >>> Original Text >>> ------------- >>> The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo >>> reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it = for >>> the BFD session. >>>=20 >>> Corrected Text >>> -------------- >>> The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that >>> MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD = session. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Notes >>> ----- >>> It is not clear from the original text which of the following is = optional: >>> - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply = is optional >>> - The reply itself is optional >>>=20 >>> Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs = to report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. >>>=20 >>> The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the = reply. This was the intent of the original text. >>=20 >> My opinion follows: >>=20 >> In section 6 -=20 >>=20 >> : On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR = MUST >> : send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation = of >> : the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD >> : Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the >> : discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo >> : request message. The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping = Echo >> : reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by = it for >> : the BFD session. The local discriminator assigned by the egress = LSR >> : MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session = packets >> : sent by the egress LSR. >>=20 >> In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the = BFD >> packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session. The = receipt >> of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional. >>=20 >> This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we = want the >> BFD session to come up as fast as possible. >>=20 >> The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get = such >> replies. It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, = section 3.2. >>=20 >> : Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP = fault >> : detection: >> :=20 >> : i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD session as = described >> : later in this document. >> :=20 >> : ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BFD = session) >> : packets at the required detection interval. >> :=20 >> : iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the control plane >> : against the data plane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped = to >> : the same FEC, at the egress, as the ingress. >>=20 >> iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping = fails. >> Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever. >>=20 >> However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information = proving >> that the LSP is up. Thus we have contradictory intent. >>=20 >> --- >>=20 >> My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to = have >> the BFD session come up by the most expedient means. I do not = believe the >> likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply". Among other = things, that >> seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures. >>=20 >> Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of = the >> Working Group: Debating intent and related text. =20 >>=20 >> -- Jeff From nobody Tue Aug 15 10:26:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B39513235A; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 09:56:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wzHGs5R3zlTY; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 09:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x233.google.com (mail-lf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A08B132194; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 09:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id t128so6171469lff.2; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 09:56:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QtBsOziysgzk2YGw7mY+bMhyPNDkeZBeLORK9QxRfZA=; b=OSBOyKW6mV3phK2J4/yGEyzhCksTQWOhj6V4m4hHNXuUHd+AIkS0vhp+7NSaZ4JWai s7Vd4d5Vv+rb+Dzp2ujIt/Nr4082Za+6CvOhM5YP8OOpOPQmIcKSol6f0iFkW59Il29T rPNwusw9m35WEIUihZbv0OejibP6sI0Q/F1Brw7izIzLRoYVELNJU5Di2Ii+AeJha2Cc rzLpSc0PiCATNX+JyyPXyEpgkCeoS2v7FS0LrUCpzgw+BK6E0pPXTjAs01+9+H9dieP6 7CGiJJr5AjzmFODsFXRJFhAn0FPbegHNS0AyzUDFZvBaDNTJgQsl43wh+4gKXBab1tsn pc3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QtBsOziysgzk2YGw7mY+bMhyPNDkeZBeLORK9QxRfZA=; b=hmBdrUxL0/C8EqJvfSgxcsLSiB/hIjdYzuyXvExeKACnJWShAdKYoK3r3TKFuM91zB E9esgt73QI3gPoqQlnyqTB2fdCuusscL5NbUBndXHXMlncY526zMIsB+00S89PyPJdZu 6nE7LidXQnt8/STxwb4F83fEag+IXlcKBAJeSwPNDUdg77kLFEkepHEyQyOmJmMhMkV+ bYEv+aDKKANxI1K0qBpXLUybC0jdWd3JFeOw6phn+UsiCxlVyf26R7dk9kl+TC/TjdbH IMXTHswcxJUWaF39ilu6zot7qBFqV2PhYfiTwDsH/jU2jU6A6CQRy/56T5+46Is4xjvB /p4A== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5gbFlm/bMsiPU57jMW8Xqd49pyyvNsOxVXQHKNQjTL6fPyKFmKg QazUlAKtmAR0oRkd+9RBSJmTa63hgw== X-Received: by 10.46.76.18 with SMTP id z18mr9421598lja.111.1502816192099; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 09:56:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.88.81 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 09:56:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4bb63466962c4957a594e73163329940@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> References: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> <7501E817-C95E-410A-A91E-080B36B213BE@cisco.com> <4bb63466962c4957a594e73163329940@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 09:56:30 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" Cc: Mach Chen , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Tom Nadeau , "mpls@ietf.org" , "Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net)" , Alia Atlas , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf. org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045e9d244afb4a0556cda9ab" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 10:26:17 -0700 X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 16:56:39 -0000 --f403045e9d244afb4a0556cda9ab Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mach and Les, thank you for your proposals.I think that the text provided by Les gives very clear and detailed explanation. I have one suggestion to clarify whether egress LSR MUST include BFD Discriminator TLV with local value in the Echo reply. My understanding of the RFC 584 is that BFD Discriminator TLV MUST be included in Echo reply. Regards, Greg On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > I tend to agree with Mach =E2=80=93 and I think what Mach states is also > reinforcing the point that Carlos has made =E2=80=93 which is that echo r= eply > procedures are defined by RFC 8029 =E2=80=93 not by RFC 5884. > > > > However, the current text suffers from much more than the ambiguity > regarding Echo Reply. > > > > 1)Second paragraph of Section 6 goes back and forth between discussing BF= D > Control packets, then Echo Reply, then BFD Control Packets > > > > 2)Third paragraph of Section 6 has an inappropriate use of =E2=80=9C,=E2= =80=9D in the > sentence: > > > > =E2=80=9CThe BFD Control packets from the > > ingress to the egress LSR MUST set the local discriminator of the > > egress *LSR, in *the Your Discriminator field.=E2=80=9D > > > > 3)Section 6.1 defines when the BFD Discriminator TLV MUST be sent and whe= n > it is optional in LSP ping. There is actually no need for Section 6 to sa= y > anything in this regard. > > > > I propose revised text below =E2=80=93 which is much more extensive in it= s changes > than what has been proposed thus far, but I think it is necessary to > eliminate all ambiguity. > > That said, there is no question that the current text is subject to > multiple interpretations =E2=80=93 so any change in text runs the risk of > introducing new interoperability issues. On balance it is probably > necessary to take this risk as there is no guarantee that implementations > are interoperable today, but the WG should still consider this point > carefully. > > > > The text below replaces current paragraphs 2 and 3 of Section 6. > > > > ** > > *On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST* > > * send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of* > > * the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD* > > * Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the* > > * discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo* > > * request message. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LS= R* > > * MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packets= * > > * sent by the egress LSR.* > > > > * The ingress LSR follows the procedures in [BFD] to send BFD Control* > > * packets to the egress LSR in response to the BFD Control packets* > > * received from the egress LSR. The BFD Control packets from the* > > * ingress to the egress LSR MUST set the local discriminator of the* > > * egress LSR in the Your Discriminator field. The egress LSR* > > * demultiplexes the BFD session based on the received Your* > > * Discriminator field. As mentioned above, the egress LSR MUST send* > > * Control packets to the ingress LSR with the Your Discriminator field* > > * set to the local discriminator of the ingress LSR. The ingress LSR* > > * uses this to demultiplex the BFD session.* > > > > * The egress LSR follows the procedures defined in [RFC 8029] to > determine when to respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message.* > > ** > > > > Les > > > > > > *From:* Rtg-bfd [mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Che= n > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2017 12:56 AM > *To:* Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Greg Mirsky > *Cc:* Tom Nadeau; mpls@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net); > Alia Atlas; Reshad Rahman (rrahman); rtg-bfd@ietf. org > *Subject:* RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) > > > > Hi all, > > > > IMHO, the point is not about whether the Echo Reply is optional for a > normal LSP Ping, where the echo reply is totally controlled by the reply > mode. > > > > For RFC5884, since the reply mode is not specified, based on the current > text, it can be interpreted as the following two ways: > > 1) it implies a new =E2=80=9Cmode=E2=80=9D introduced, it=E2=80=99s = actually a =E2=80=9Cspecial=E2=80=9D LSP > Ping, the process is just as what is currently described in the RFC: an > Echo Reply is OPTINAL, whether and when to send Echo Reply is up to the > egress LSR, and the Ingress LSR should not assume an Echo reply will be > returned; > > 2) the echo reply is still controlled by the reply mode, and given > that there is a =E2=80=9CDo not reply=E2=80=9D mode, the current text see= ms right, but not > that clear. > > > > I incline to think way (2) is more nature, if so, the proposed =E2=80=9C= Corrected > Text=E2=80=9D may not work if the Sender set the reply mode to =E2=80=9CD= o not reply=E2=80=9D. > > > > I=E2=80=99d suggest: > > > > Original Text > ------------- > The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > the BFD session. > > > > NEW: > > The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > the BFD session. Whether to send an LSP Ping Echo reply message is > > determined by the reply mode carried the received Echo request message. > > > > Best regards, > > Mach > > > > *From:* Rtg-bfd [mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2017 8:17 AM > *To:* Greg Mirsky > *Cc:* Tom Nadeau ; mpls@ietf.org; Kireeti > Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net) ; Alia Atlas < > akatlas@gmail.com>; Reshad Rahman (rrahman) ; > rtg-bfd@ietf. org > *Subject:* Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) > > > > Greg, > > > > This is my final email on this topic, since the arguments are now just > silly and not technically constructive. > > > > 1. It's not about understanding English. It's about understanding specs! > The "(if any)" that you quote means there are situations in which there's > no echo reply. As I already explained to you, that's for example the case > with Reply-mode: No-reply. However, the "(if any)" does not mean an Echo > Reply is OPTIONAL. !! Or that you choose when a reply is not sent!! > > 2. RFC 8029 obsoleted 4379. But to my recollection, nothing changed > relevant to this Errata. > > > > BFD for MPLS could have updated LSP ping behavior -- it just didn't. > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Aug 14, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > Hi Carlos, > > thank you for sharing your view on how LSP Echo request with BFD > Discriminator used to bootstrap a BFD session over MPLS LSP. I'm surprise= d > that you refer to RFC 8029 as normative reference when commenting on RFC > 5884. But even if we look into RFC 8029, it still has the same texts I've > quoted in the previous note that suggest that echo reply is optional. > Consider one of them "The Sender's Handle is filled in by the sender and > returned unchanged by the receiver in the echo reply (if any)." Though > English is my third language, I interpret "if any" in that sentence as > clear indication that the echo reply may not be sent ever. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < > cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > > Jeff, WG, > > > > I believe there is one additional consideration =E2=80=94 please see inli= ne. > > > > On Aug 11, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > > > > [Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catch t= he > RFC authors' current accounts.] > > > The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up. Balaji submitted an errata, > which > provides us with a good place to start technical discussion. > > Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with > Balaji. > > > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: > > Section: 6 > > Original Text > ------------- > The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > the BFD session. > > Corrected Text > -------------- > The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. > > > Notes > ----- > It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional= : > - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply is > optional > - The reply itself is optional > > Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to > report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. > > > > This is correct =E2=80=94 but even more so, technically, it is not up to = RFC 5884 > to define when an LSP-Ping reply is optional or not. > > > > That=E2=80=99s=E2=80=99 up to https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section= -4.4 > > > > Lacking a Reply Mode set to "Do not reply" (https://tools.ietf.org/html/ > rfc8029#page-12) the RFC 8029 procedures dictate a response be sent, > independent of whether the RFC 5884 procedures use that information or no= t. > > > > More below. > > > > > The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. > This was the intent of the original text. > > > My opinion follows: > > In section 6 - > > : On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST > : send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of > : the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD > : Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the > : discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo > : request message. The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > : reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it fo= r > : the BFD session. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR > : MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packet= s > : sent by the egress LSR. > > In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD > packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session. The receip= t > of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional. > > This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want t= he > BFD session to come up as fast as possible. > > > > Yes, especially because the first sentence says that the egress sending a > BFD Control packet implies FEC validation passed. However, > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4 does more than FEC > validation. > > > > > The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such > replies. It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section 3.= 2. > > : Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP fault > : detection: > : > : i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD session as describe= d > : later in this document. > : > : ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BFD session) > : packets at the required detection interval. > : > : iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the control plane > : against the data plane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to > : the same FEC, at the egress, as the ingress. > > iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails= . > Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever. > > However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information provin= g > that the LSP is up. Thus we have contradictory intent. > > --- > > My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have > the BFD session come up by the most expedient means. I do not believe th= e > likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply". Among other things, th= at > seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures. > > Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the > Working Group: Debating intent and related text. > > > > My individual opinion is that, as written, RFC 5884 cannot mean any other > thing that =E2=80=9C The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo re= ply > message that > > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session=E2= =80=9D. > > > > In other words, I support this errata. > > > > This is because RFC 5884 did not update RFC 4379=E2=80=99s procedures. An= d thus a > response is needed based on 8029 irregardless of whether 5884 uses it. > > > > That said, it is debatable whether that LSP Ping response is useful or > not. If it is not sent, it does not comply to 8029. But if the WG wants f= or > it to be not send, a new spec is needed. > > > > Thanks, > > > > -- Jeff > > > > =E2=80=94 > > Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com > > *=E2=80=9CSometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to ma= ke myself > sound more photosynthesis."* > > > > > > --f403045e9d244afb4a0556cda9ab Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mach and Les,
thank you for your proposals.I think = that the text provided by Les gives very clear and detailed explanation. I = have one suggestion to clarify whether egress LSR MUST include BFD Discrimi= nator TLV with local value in the Echo reply. My understanding of the RFC 5= 84 is that BFD Discriminator TLV MUST be included in Echo reply.
=
Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Les Ginsb= erg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com> wrote:

I tend to agree with Mach= =E2=80=93 and I think what Mach states is also reinforcing the point that = Carlos has made =E2=80=93 which is that echo reply procedures are defined by RFC 8029 =E2=80=93 not by RFC 5884.

=C2=A0

However, the current text= suffers from much more than the ambiguity regarding Echo Reply.<= /u>

=C2=A0

1)Second paragraph of Sec= tion 6 goes back and forth between discussing BFD Control packets, then Ech= o Reply, then BFD Control Packets

=C2=A0

2)Third paragraph of Sect= ion 6 has an inappropriate use of =E2=80=9C,=E2=80=9D in the sentence:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9CThe BFD Control = packets from the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 ingress to t= he egress LSR MUST set the local discriminator of the<= /p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 egress LSR, in the Your Discriminator field.=E2=80= =9D

=C2=A0

3)Section 6.1 defines whe= n the BFD Discriminator TLV MUST be sent and when it is optional in LSP pin= g. There is actually no need for Section 6 to say anything in this regard.

=C2=A0

I propose revised text be= low =E2=80=93 which is much more extensive in its changes than what has bee= n proposed thus far, but I think it is necessary to eliminate all ambiguity.

That said, there is no qu= estion that the current text is subject to multiple interpretations =E2=80= =93 so any change in text runs the risk of introducing new interoperability issues. On balance it is probably necessary to take this risk as there is = no guarantee that implementations are interoperable today, but the WG shoul= d still consider this point carefully.

=C2=A0

The text below replaces c= urrent paragraphs 2 and 3 of Section 6.

=C2=A0

<new text start>

On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST

=C2=A0=C2=A0 send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the vali= dation of

=C2=A0=C2=A0 the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds.=C2= =A0 This BFD

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to t= he

=C2=A0=C2=A0 discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Pi= ng Echo

=C2=A0=C2=A0 request message.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0The local discr= iminator assigned by the egress LSR

=C2=A0=C2=A0 MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD ses= sion packets

=C2=A0=C2=A0 sent by the egress LSR.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 The ingress LSR follows the procedures in [BFD] to= send BFD Control

=C2=A0=C2=A0 packets to the egress LSR in response to the BFD Control = packets

=C2=A0=C2=A0 received from the egress LSR.=C2=A0 The BFD Control packe= ts from the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 ingress to the egress LSR MUST set the local discriminato= r of the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 egress LSR in the Your Discriminator field.=C2=A0 The egr= ess LSR

=C2=A0=C2=A0 demultiplexes the BFD session based on the received Your<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Discriminator field.=C2=A0 As mentioned above, the egress= LSR MUST send

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Control packets to the ingress LSR with the Your Discrimi= nator field

=C2=A0=C2=A0 set to the local discriminator of the ingress LSR.=C2=A0 = The ingress LSR

=C2=A0=C2=A0 uses this to demultiplex the BFD session.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 The egress LSR follows the procedures defined in [RFC 8029] to = determine when to respond with an LSP Ping Echo=C2=A0 reply message.=

<new text end>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Les=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rtg-bfd = [mailto:rtg-b= fd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mach Chen
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 12:56 AM
To: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Greg Mirsky
Cc: Tom Nadeau; m= pls@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net); Alia Atlas; Reshad Rahman (rrah= man); rtg-bfd@ietf. org
Subject: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)

=C2=A0

Hi all,

=C2=A0

IMHO, the point is not ab= out whether the Echo Reply is optional for a normal LSP Ping, where the ech= o reply is totally controlled by the reply mode.

=C2=A0

For RFC5884, since the re= ply mode is not specified, based on the current text, it can be interpreted= as the following two ways:

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 it implies a new =E2=80=9Cmode=E2=80=9D i= ntroduced, it=E2=80=99s actually a =E2=80=9Cspecial=E2=80=9D LSP Ping, =C2= =A0the process is just as what is currently described in the RFC: an Echo R= eply is OPTINAL, whether and when to send Echo Reply is up to the egress LSR, and the Ingress LSR s= hould not assume an Echo reply will be returned;

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the echo reply is still controlled by the= reply mode, and given that there is a =E2=80=9CDo not reply=E2=80=9D mode,= the current text seems right, but not that clear.

=C2=A0

I incline to think way (2= ) is more nature, if so, =C2=A0the proposed =E2=80=9CCorrected Text=E2=80= =9D may not work if the Sender set the reply mode to =E2=80=9CDo not reply= =E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99d suggest:

=C2=A0

Original Text
-------------
The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session.

=C2=A0

NEW:

The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session. Whether to send an LSP Ping Echo reply message is <= u>

determined by the reply mode carried the received Ec= ho request message. =C2=A0<= /p>

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Mach=

=C2=A0

From: Rtg-bf= d [mailto:rtg= -bfd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 8:17 AM
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: Tom Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com>; mpls@ietf.org; Kiree= ti Kompella (kiree= ti@juniper.net) <kireeti@juniper.net>; Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>; Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@cisco.com>; rtg-bfd@ietf. org <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)

=C2=A0

Greg,

=C2=A0

This is my final email on this topic, since the argu= ments are now just silly and not technically constructive.=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

1. It's not about understanding English. It'= s about understanding specs! The "(if any)" that you quote means = there are situations in which there's no echo reply. As I already expla= ined to you, that's for example the case with Reply-mode: No-reply. However, the "(if any)" does not mean an Echo Reply is= OPTIONAL. !! Or that you choose when a reply is not sent!!

2. RFC 8029 obsoleted 4379. But to my recollection, = nothing changed relevant to this Errata.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

BFD for MPLS could have updated LSP ping behavior --= it just didn't.=C2=A0


Sent from my iPad


On Aug 14, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:=

Hi Carlos,

thank you for sharing your view on how LSP Echo requ= est with BFD Discriminator used to bootstrap a BFD session over MPLS LSP. I= 'm surprised that you refer to RFC 8029 as normative reference when com= menting on RFC 5884. But even if we look into RFC 8029, it still has the same texts I've quoted in the previous= note that suggest that echo reply is optional. Consider one of them "= The Sender's Handle is fil= led in by the sender and returned unchanged=C2=A0by the receiver in the echo reply (if any)." Though English is my third = language, I interpret "if any" in that sentence as clear indicati= on that the echo reply may not be sent ever.

=C2=A0

Regards= ,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Carlos Pignataro (c= pignata) <cpigna= ta@cisco.com> wrote:

Jeff, WG,

=C2=A0

I believe there is one additional consideration =E2= =80=94 please see inline.

=C2=A0

On Aug 11, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:=

=C2=A0

[Note that I have adj= usted the addresses in the headers to try to catch the
RFC authors' current accounts.]


The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up.=C2=A0 Balaji submitted an errata,= which
provides us with a good place to start technical discussion.

Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with
Balaji.


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote:

Section: 6

Original Text
-------------
The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session.

Corrected Text
--------------
The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that
MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session.


Notes
-----
It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional:<= br> =C2=A0- =C2=A0The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the re= ply is optional
=C2=A0- =C2=A0The reply itself is optional

Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to repo= rt LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress.

=C2=A0

This is correct =E2=80=94 but even more so, technica= lly, it is not up to RFC 5884 to define when an LSP-Ping reply is optional = or not.

=C2=A0

That=E2=80=99s=E2=80=99 up to=C2=A0https://tools.= ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4

=C2=A0

Lacking a Reply Mode set to "Do not reply"= (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#page-12) the RFC 8029 procedu= res dictate a response be sent, independent of whether the RFC 5884 procedures use that information or not.

=C2=A0

More below.

=C2=A0


The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. Thi= s was the intent of the original text.


My opinion follows:

In section 6 -

: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the eg= ress LSR MUST
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the va= lidation of
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds.= =C2=A0 This BFD
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to= the
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP = Ping Echo
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0request message.=C2=A0 The egress LSR MAY respond with = an LSP Ping Echo
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0reply message that carries the local discriminator assi= gned by it for
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the BFD session.=C2=A0 The local discriminator assigned= by the egress LSR
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD s= ession packets
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sent by the egress LSR.

In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session.=C2=A0 The rec= eipt
of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional.

This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the=
BFD session to come up as fast as possible.

=C2=A0

Yes, especially because the first sentence says that= the egress sending a BFD Control packet implies FEC validation passed. How= ever,=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4=C2= =A0does more than FEC validation.

=C2=A0


The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such
replies.=C2=A0 It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, sec= tion 3.2.

: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPL= S LSP fault
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0detection:
:
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping= the BFD session as described
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0later in this docum= ent.
:
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection= (i.e., BFD session)
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0packets at the requ= ired detection interval.
:
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the = control plane
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0against the data pl= ane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the same FEC, at th= e egress, as the ingress.

iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails.<= br> Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever.

However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving<= br> that the LSP is up.=C2=A0 Thus we have contradictory intent.

---

My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means.=C2=A0 I do not believe= the
likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply".=C2=A0 Among= other things, that
seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures.

Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

My individual opinion is that, as written, RFC 5884 = cannot mean any other thing that =E2=80=9C The egress LSR MUST respond with= an LSP Ping Echo reply message that

MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for= the BFD session=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

In other words, I support this errata.=

=C2=A0

This is because RFC 5884 did not update RFC 4379=E2= =80=99s procedures. And thus a response is needed based on 8029 irregardles= s of whether 5884 uses it.

=C2=A0

That said, it is debatable whether that LSP Ping res= ponse is useful or not. If it is not sent, it does not comply to 8029. But = if the WG wants for it to be not send, a new spec is needed.<= /p>

=C2=A0

Thanks,

=C2=A0<= /p>

-- Jeff=

=C2=A0

=E2=80=94<= /span>

Carlos Pignataro,=C2=A0<= a href=3D"mailto:carlos@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">carlos@cisco.com
=E2=80=9CSometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to ma= ke myself sound more=C2=A0photosynthesis."

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


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AQHTEsasU87guosjHUWva6qlHRtDoKJ/rxSAgAAJTYCABwSmAIAAUvsA Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 14:20:08 +0000 Message-ID: <705BEEE3-BC31-42CA-BE0F-06EB6E529A65@cisco.com> References: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.23.0.170610 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.116.133] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_705BEEE3BC3142CABE0F06EB6E529A65ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 14:20:19 -0000 --_000_705BEEE3BC3142CABE0F06EB6E529A65ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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<20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 07:57:11 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) To: Balaji Rajagopalan Cc: Jeffrey Haas , Kireeti Kompella , Thomas Nadeau , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , Alia Atlas Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1141136a62cbb50556e01cb0" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 14:57:20 -0000 --001a1141136a62cbb50556e01cb0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Balaji, thank you for sharing your experience with the issue. Had you captured what are the values of the Return Mode field in Echo request packets in each case? Perhaps these would explain the behavior of the egress LSR. Regards, Greg On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 10:23 PM, Balaji Rajagopalan wrote: > I=E2=80=99m aware of three different behaviours from three different vend= ors that > I came across in the course of inter-op: > > - Always respond to an LSP-Ping request carrying a BFD disc > > - Never send a response to an LSP-Ping request carrying a BFD dis= c > > - Don=E2=80=99t respond to the first LSP-Ping request carrying a = BFD > disc, but respond to the subsequent ones > > > > This experience leads me to believe that this procedure is NOT > well-understood. So, publication of errata on this issue is necessary. > > > > As some of the co-authors have clarified in further emails, inclusion of > BFD discriminator in the LSP-Ping request does not change LSP-Ping=E2=80= =99s basic > function. So, the egress must send a reply. This is what the erratum > clarifies. > > > > -- > > Balaji Rajagopalan > > > > > > > > *From: *Rtg-bfd on behalf of Greg Mirsky < > gregimirsky@gmail.com> > *Date: *Friday, 11 August 2017 at 11:42 PM > *To: *Jeffrey Haas > *Cc: *Kireeti Kompella , Thomas Nadeau < > tnadeau@lucidvision.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "Reshad > Rahman (rrahman)" , Alia Atlas > *Subject: *Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) > > > > Re-sending to the corrected list (apologies for duplicates). > > > > Dear All, > > I suggest to reject this proposal. The current text is clear and the > mechanics of bootstrapping BFD session over MPLS LSP is well understood - > remote peer MUST start sending BFD control packets first and BFD peer MAY > send Echo Reply with its Local Discriminator as value in BFD Discriminato= r > TLV. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > > [Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catch t= he > RFC authors' current accounts.] > > > The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up. Balaji submitted an errata, > which > provides us with a good place to start technical discussion. > > Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with > Balaji. > > > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: > > Section: 6 > > > > Original Text > > ------------- > > The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > > reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > > the BFD session. > > > > Corrected Text > > -------------- > > The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that > > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. > > > > > > Notes > > ----- > > It is not clear from the original text which of the following is > optional: > > - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply i= s > optional > > - The reply itself is optional > > > > Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to > report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. > > > > The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. > This was the intent of the original text. > > My opinion follows: > > In section 6 - > > : On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST > : send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of > : the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD > : Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the > : discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo > : request message. The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > : reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it fo= r > : the BFD session. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR > : MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packet= s > : sent by the egress LSR. > > In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD > packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session. The receip= t > of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional. > > This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want t= he > BFD session to come up as fast as possible. > > The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such > replies. It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section 3.= 2. > > : Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP fault > : detection: > : > : i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD session as describe= d > : later in this document. > : > : ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BFD session) > : packets at the required detection interval. > : > : iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the control plane > : against the data plane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to > : the same FEC, at the egress, as the ingress. > > iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails= . > Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever. > > However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information provin= g > that the LSP is up. Thus we have contradictory intent. > > --- > > My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have > the BFD session come up by the most expedient means. I do not believe th= e > likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply". Among other things, th= at > seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures. > > Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the > Working Group: Debating intent and related text. > > -- Jeff > > > --001a1141136a62cbb50556e01cb0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Balaji,
thank you for sharing your experience with = the issue. Had you captured what are the values of the Return Mode field in= Echo request packets in each case? Perhaps these would explain the behavio= r of the egress LSR.

Regards,
Greg
=

On Tue, Aug= 15, 2017 at 10:23 PM, Balaji Rajagopalan <balajir@juniper.net> wrote:

I=E2=80=99m awar= e of three different behaviours from three different vendors that I came ac= ross in the course of inter-op:

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Always resp= ond to an LSP-Ping request carrying a BFD disc

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Never send = a response to an LSP-Ping request carrying a BFD disc<= /p>

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Don=E2=80= =99t respond to the first LSP-Ping request carrying a BFD disc, but respond= to the subsequent ones

=C2=A0

This experience = leads me to believe that this procedure is NOT well-understood.=C2=A0 So, p= ublication of errata on this issue is necessary.

=C2=A0=

As some of the c= o-authors have clarified in further emails, inclusion of BFD discriminator = in the LSP-Ping request does not change LSP-Ping=E2=80=99s basic function. = So, the egress must send a reply. This is what the erratum clarifies.

=C2=A0=

--=

Balaji Rajagopal= an

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

F= rom: Rtg-bfd <rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org= > on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, 11 August 2017 at 11:42 PM
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>, Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com&= gt;, "rtg-bfd@ie= tf.org" <= rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, = Alia Atlas <akatl= as@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)

=C2=A0

Re-sending to the corrected list (apologies for dupl= icates).

=C2=A0

Dear All, =

I suggest to reject = this proposal. The current text is clear and the mechanics of bootstrapping= BFD session over MPLS LSP is well understood - remote peer MUST start send= ing BFD control packets first and BFD peer MAY send Echo Reply with its Local Discriminator as value in BFD Disc= riminator TLV.

=C2=A0=

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Jeffrey Haas <<= a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org" target=3D"_blank">jhaas@pfrc.org> w= rote:

[Note that I have adj= usted the addresses in the headers to try to catch the
RFC authors' current accounts.]


The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up.=C2=A0 Balaji submitted an errata,= which
provides us with a good place to start technical discussion.

Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with
Balaji.


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote:
> Section: 6
>
> Original Text
> -------------
> The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
> reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for<= br> > the BFD session.
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
> The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session.<= br> >
>
> Notes
> -----
> It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optio= nal:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminato= r in the reply is optional
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 The reply itself is optional
>
> Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to= report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress.
>
> The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply= . This was the intent of the original text.

My opinion follows:

In section 6 -

:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress = LSR MUST
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validat= ion of
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds.=C2=A0= This BFD
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the<= br> :=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping = Echo
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 request message.=C2=A0 The egress LSR MAY respond with an LS= P Ping Echo
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned = by it for
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the BFD session.=C2=A0 The local discriminator assigned by t= he egress LSR
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD sessio= n packets
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sent by the egress LSR.

In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session.=C2=A0 The rec= eipt
of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional.

This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the=
BFD session to come up as fast as possible.

The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such
replies.=C2=A0 It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, sec= tion 3.2.

:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP= fault
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 detection:
:
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD s= ession as described
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 later in this document.
:
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BF= D session)
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 packets at the required detection inter= val.
:
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the contr= ol plane
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 against the data plane by ensuring that= the LSP is mapped to
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the same FEC, at the egress, as the ing= ress.

iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails.<= br> Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever.

However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving<= br> that the LSP is up.=C2=A0 Thus we have contradictory intent.

---

My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means.=C2=A0 I do not believe= the
likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply".=C2=A0 Among= other things, that
seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures.

Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text.

-- Jeff

=C2=A0


--001a1141136a62cbb50556e01cb0-- From nobody Wed Aug 16 08:01:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86783132198 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 07:29:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MdHvWdkjeLcT for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 07:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E8601241FC for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 07:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id A66A1B8139E; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 07:29:34 -0700 (PDT) To: rahul@juniper.net, kireeti@juniper.net, tom.nadeau@bt.com, swallow@cisco.com, akatlas@gmail.com, db3546@att.com, aretana@cisco.com, jhaas@pfrc.org, rrahman@cisco.com Subject: [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5087) X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Cc: cpignata@cisco.com, rtg-bfd@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20170816142934.A66A1B8139E@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 07:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 08:01:54 -0700 X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 14:29:57 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5884, "Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) for MPLS Label Switched Paths (LSPs)". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5087 -------------------------------------- Type: Editorial Reported by: Carlos Pignataro Section: 7 Original Text ------------- 7. Encapsulation [...] The BFD Control packet sent by the ingress LSR MUST be a UDP packet with a well-known destination port 3784 [BFD-IP] and a source port assigned by the sender as per the procedures in [BFD-IP]. The source IP address is a routable address of the sender. The destination IP address MUST be randomly chosen from the 127/8 range for IPv4 and from the 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00/104 range for IPv6 with the following exception. If the FEC is an LDP IP FEC, the ingress LSR may discover multiple alternate paths to the egress LSR for this FEC using LSP Ping traceroute. In this case, the destination IP address, used in a BFD session established for one such alternate path, is the address in the 127/8 range for IPv4 or 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00/104 range for IPv6 discovered by LSP Ping traceroute [RFC4379] to exercise that particular alternate path. [...] Or the BFD Control packet sent by the egress LSR to the ingress LSR MAY be encapsulated in an MPLS label stack. In this case, the presence of the fault detection message is indicated as described above. This may be the case if the FEC for which the fault detection is being performed corresponds to a bidirectional LSP or an MPLS PW. This may also be the case when there is a return LSP from the egress LSR to the ingress LSR. In this case, the destination IP address MUST be randomly chosen from the 127/8 range for IPv4 and from the 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00/104 range for IPv6. Corrected Text -------------- 7. Encapsulation [...] The BFD Control packet sent by the ingress LSR MUST be a UDP packet with a well-known destination port 3784 [BFD-IP] and a source port assigned by the sender as per the procedures in [BFD-IP]. The source IP address is a routable address of the sender. The destination IP address MUST be randomly chosen from the 127/8 range for IPv4 and from the 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6 with the following exception. If the FEC is an LDP IP FEC, the ingress LSR may discover multiple alternate paths to the egress LSR for this FEC using LSP Ping traceroute. In this case, the destination IP address, used in a BFD session established for one such alternate path, is the address in the 127/8 range for IPv4 or 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6 discovered by LSP Ping traceroute [RFC4379] to exercise that particular alternate path. [...] Or the BFD Control packet sent by the egress LSR to the ingress LSR MAY be encapsulated in an MPLS label stack. In this case, the presence of the fault detection message is indicated as described above. This may be the case if the FEC for which the fault detection is being performed corresponds to a bidirectional LSP or an MPLS PW. This may also be the case when there is a return LSP from the egress LSR to the ingress LSR. In this case, the destination IP address MUST be randomly chosen from the 127/8 range for IPv4 and from the 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6. Notes ----- There are three instances of the IPv4-mapped IPv6 prefix for the IPv4 loopback range 127.0.0.0/8 written as 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00/104, and it should instead be written as 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. s/0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00/0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/g (3 replacements) Same rationale as https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/DqH_LFCEyUqCLQhffEb7_jU24uQ Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC5884 (draft-ietf-bfd-mpls-07) -------------------------------------- Title : Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) for MPLS Label Switched Paths (LSPs) Publication Date : June 2010 Author(s) : R. Aggarwal, K. Kompella, T. Nadeau, G. Swallow Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : Bidirectional Forwarding Detection Area : Routing Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Wed Aug 16 08:02:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F5A1132442; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 16:36:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.519 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.519 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com 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Mirsky Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 16:53:02 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" Cc: Mach Chen , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Tom Nadeau , "mpls@ietf.org" , "Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net)" , Alia Atlas , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf. org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11410998ebc43f0556d37ad1" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 08:02:39 -0700 X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 23:53:11 -0000 --001a11410998ebc43f0556d37ad1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Les, apologies as I wasn't clear in my proposal. I've referred to the Echo reply sent by the egress LSR. I think that the reference to RFC 8029 in the last sentence is not sufficient to define use of BFD Discriminator TLV in Echo reply. I think that Mach has captured it in the new text he provided that may be used in place of the last sentence in your proposal as the following= : Your Text The egress LSR follows the procedures defined in [RFC 8029] to determine when to respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message. Mach Text The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. Whether to send an LSP Ping Echo reply message is determined by the value of the Reply Mode field carried in the received Echo request message. Kind regards, Greg On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > Greg =E2=80=93 > > > > Thanx. > > > > Section 6.1 currently states: > > > > =E2=80=9CIf the BFD session is not in UP state, the periodic LSP Ping Ech= o > > request messages MUST include the BFD Discriminator TLV.=E2=80=9D > > > > I think this language is unambiguous. > > ?? > > > > Les > > > > > > *From:* Greg Mirsky [mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2017 9:56 AM > *To:* Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > *Cc:* Mach Chen; Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Tom Nadeau; mpls@ietf.org; > Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net); Alia Atlas; Reshad Rahman > (rrahman); rtg-bfd@ietf. org > > *Subject:* Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) > > > > Hi Mach and Les, > > thank you for your proposals.I think that the text provided by Les gives > very clear and detailed explanation. I have one suggestion to clarify > whether egress LSR MUST include BFD Discriminator TLV with local value in > the Echo reply. My understanding of the RFC 584 is that BFD Discriminator > TLV MUST be included in Echo reply. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) < > ginsberg@cisco.com> wrote: > > I tend to agree with Mach =E2=80=93 and I think what Mach states is also > reinforcing the point that Carlos has made =E2=80=93 which is that echo r= eply > procedures are defined by RFC 8029 =E2=80=93 not by RFC 5884. > > > > However, the current text suffers from much more than the ambiguity > regarding Echo Reply. > > > > 1)Second paragraph of Section 6 goes back and forth between discussing BF= D > Control packets, then Echo Reply, then BFD Control Packets > > > > 2)Third paragraph of Section 6 has an inappropriate use of =E2=80=9C,=E2= =80=9D in the > sentence: > > > > =E2=80=9CThe BFD Control packets from the > > ingress to the egress LSR MUST set the local discriminator of the > > egress *LSR, in *the Your Discriminator field.=E2=80=9D > > > > 3)Section 6.1 defines when the BFD Discriminator TLV MUST be sent and whe= n > it is optional in LSP ping. There is actually no need for Section 6 to sa= y > anything in this regard. > > > > I propose revised text below =E2=80=93 which is much more extensive in it= s changes > than what has been proposed thus far, but I think it is necessary to > eliminate all ambiguity. > > That said, there is no question that the current text is subject to > multiple interpretations =E2=80=93 so any change in text runs the risk of > introducing new interoperability issues. On balance it is probably > necessary to take this risk as there is no guarantee that implementations > are interoperable today, but the WG should still consider this point > carefully. > > > > The text below replaces current paragraphs 2 and 3 of Section 6. > > > > ** > > *On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST* > > * send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of* > > * the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD* > > * Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the* > > * discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo* > > * request message. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LS= R* > > * MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packets= * > > * sent by the egress LSR.* > > > > * The ingress LSR follows the procedures in [BFD] to send BFD Control* > > * packets to the egress LSR in response to the BFD Control packets* > > * received from the egress LSR. The BFD Control packets from the* > > * ingress to the egress LSR MUST set the local discriminator of the* > > * egress LSR in the Your Discriminator field. The egress LSR* > > * demultiplexes the BFD session based on the received Your* > > * Discriminator field. As mentioned above, the egress LSR MUST send* > > * Control packets to the ingress LSR with the Your Discriminator field* > > * set to the local discriminator of the ingress LSR. The ingress LSR* > > * uses this to demultiplex the BFD session.* > > > > * The egress LSR follows the procedures defined in [RFC 8029] to > determine when to respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message.* > > ** > > > > Les > > > > > > *From:* Rtg-bfd [mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Che= n > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2017 12:56 AM > *To:* Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Greg Mirsky > *Cc:* Tom Nadeau; mpls@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net); > Alia Atlas; Reshad Rahman (rrahman); rtg-bfd@ietf. org > *Subject:* RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) > > > > Hi all, > > > > IMHO, the point is not about whether the Echo Reply is optional for a > normal LSP Ping, where the echo reply is totally controlled by the reply > mode. > > > > For RFC5884, since the reply mode is not specified, based on the current > text, it can be interpreted as the following two ways: > > 1) it implies a new =E2=80=9Cmode=E2=80=9D introduced, it=E2=80=99s = actually a =E2=80=9Cspecial=E2=80=9D LSP > Ping, the process is just as what is currently described in the RFC: an > Echo Reply is OPTINAL, whether and when to send Echo Reply is up to the > egress LSR, and the Ingress LSR should not assume an Echo reply will be > returned; > > 2) the echo reply is still controlled by the reply mode, and given > that there is a =E2=80=9CDo not reply=E2=80=9D mode, the current text see= ms right, but not > that clear. > > > > I incline to think way (2) is more nature, if so, the proposed =E2=80=9C= Corrected > Text=E2=80=9D may not work if the Sender set the reply mode to =E2=80=9CD= o not reply=E2=80=9D. > > > > I=E2=80=99d suggest: > > > > Original Text > ------------- > The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > the BFD session. > > > > NEW: > > The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > the BFD session. Whether to send an LSP Ping Echo reply message is > > determined by the reply mode carried the received Echo request message. > > > > Best regards, > > Mach > > > > *From:* Rtg-bfd [mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2017 8:17 AM > *To:* Greg Mirsky > *Cc:* Tom Nadeau ; mpls@ietf.org; Kireeti > Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net) ; Alia Atlas < > akatlas@gmail.com>; Reshad Rahman (rrahman) ; > rtg-bfd@ietf. org > *Subject:* Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) > > > > Greg, > > > > This is my final email on this topic, since the arguments are now just > silly and not technically constructive. > > > > 1. It's not about understanding English. It's about understanding specs! > The "(if any)" that you quote means there are situations in which there's > no echo reply. As I already explained to you, that's for example the case > with Reply-mode: No-reply. However, the "(if any)" does not mean an Echo > Reply is OPTIONAL. !! Or that you choose when a reply is not sent!! > > 2. RFC 8029 obsoleted 4379. But to my recollection, nothing changed > relevant to this Errata. > > > > BFD for MPLS could have updated LSP ping behavior -- it just didn't. > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Aug 14, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > Hi Carlos, > > thank you for sharing your view on how LSP Echo request with BFD > Discriminator used to bootstrap a BFD session over MPLS LSP. I'm surprise= d > that you refer to RFC 8029 as normative reference when commenting on RFC > 5884. But even if we look into RFC 8029, it still has the same texts I've > quoted in the previous note that suggest that echo reply is optional. > Consider one of them "The Sender's Handle is filled in by the sender and > returned unchanged by the receiver in the echo reply (if any)." Though > English is my third language, I interpret "if any" in that sentence as > clear indication that the echo reply may not be sent ever. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < > cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > > Jeff, WG, > > > > I believe there is one additional consideration =E2=80=94 please see inli= ne. > > > > On Aug 11, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > > > > [Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catch t= he > RFC authors' current accounts.] > > > The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up. Balaji submitted an errata, > which > provides us with a good place to start technical discussion. > > Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with > Balaji. > > > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: > > Section: 6 > > Original Text > ------------- > The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > the BFD session. > > Corrected Text > -------------- > The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. > > > Notes > ----- > It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional= : > - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply is > optional > - The reply itself is optional > > Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to > report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. > > > > This is correct =E2=80=94 but even more so, technically, it is not up to = RFC 5884 > to define when an LSP-Ping reply is optional or not. > > > > That=E2=80=99s=E2=80=99 up to https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section= -4.4 > > > > Lacking a Reply Mode set to "Do not reply" (https://tools.ietf.org/html/ > rfc8029#page-12) the RFC 8029 procedures dictate a response be sent, > independent of whether the RFC 5884 procedures use that information or no= t. > > > > More below. > > > > > The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. > This was the intent of the original text. > > > My opinion follows: > > In section 6 - > > : On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST > : send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of > : the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD > : Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the > : discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo > : request message. The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > : reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it fo= r > : the BFD session. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR > : MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packet= s > : sent by the egress LSR. > > In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD > packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session. The receip= t > of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional. > > This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want t= he > BFD session to come up as fast as possible. > > > > Yes, especially because the first sentence says that the egress sending a > BFD Control packet implies FEC validation passed. However, > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4 does more than FEC > validation. > > > > > The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such > replies. It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section 3.= 2. > > : Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP fault > : detection: > : > : i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD session as describe= d > : later in this document. > : > : ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BFD session) > : packets at the required detection interval. > : > : iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the control plane > : against the data plane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to > : the same FEC, at the egress, as the ingress. > > iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails= . > Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever. > > However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information provin= g > that the LSP is up. Thus we have contradictory intent. > > --- > > My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have > the BFD session come up by the most expedient means. I do not believe th= e > likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply". Among other things, th= at > seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures. > > Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the > Working Group: Debating intent and related text. > > > > My individual opinion is that, as written, RFC 5884 cannot mean any other > thing that =E2=80=9C The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo re= ply > message that > > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session=E2= =80=9D. > > > > In other words, I support this errata. > > > > This is because RFC 5884 did not update RFC 4379=E2=80=99s procedures. An= d thus a > response is needed based on 8029 irregardless of whether 5884 uses it. > > > > That said, it is debatable whether that LSP Ping response is useful or > not. If it is not sent, it does not comply to 8029. But if the WG wants f= or > it to be not send, a new spec is needed. > > > > Thanks, > > > > -- Jeff > > > > =E2=80=94 > > Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com > > *=E2=80=9CSometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to ma= ke myself > sound more photosynthesis."* > > > > > > > --001a11410998ebc43f0556d37ad1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Les,
apologies as I wasn't clear in my proposal= . I've referred to the Echo reply sent by the egress LSR. I think that = the reference to RFC 8029 in the last sentence is not sufficient to define = use of BFD Discriminator TLV in Echo reply. I think that Mach has captured = it in the new text he provided that may be used in place of the last senten= ce in your proposal as the following:

Your Text
The egress LSR follows the procedures defined in [= RFC 8029] to determine when to respond with an LSP Ping Echo=C2=A0 reply me= ssage.

Mach Text

The egr= ess LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the= local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session. Whether = to send an LSP Ping Echo reply message is

determined by the value of th= e Reply Mode field carried in the received Echo request message. =C2=A0


<= /font>

Kind regards,

Greg<= /font>


On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@c= isco.com> wrote:

Greg =E2=80=93<= /u>

=C2=A0

Thanx.

=C2=A0

Section 6.1 currently sta= tes:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9CIf the BFD sessi= on is not in UP state, the periodic LSP Ping Echo

=C2=A0=C2=A0 request mess= ages MUST include the BFD Discriminator TLV.=E2=80=9D<= /p>

=C2=A0

I think this language is = unambiguous.

??

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Les

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Greg Mir= sky [mailto:greg= imirsky@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 9:56 AM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
Cc: Mach Chen; Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Tom Nadeau; mpls@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella = (kireeti@juniper.n= et); Alia Atlas; Reshad Rahman (rrahman); rtg-bfd@ietf. org

<= div>

Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)

=C2=A0

Hi Mach and Les,

thank you for your proposals.I think that the text p= rovided by Les gives very clear and detailed explanation. I have one sugges= tion to clarify whether egress LSR MUST include BFD Discriminator TLV with = local value in the Echo reply. My understanding of the RFC 584 is that BFD Discriminator TLV MUST be include= d in Echo reply.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsb= erg) <ginsberg@c= isco.com> wrote:

I tend to agree with Mach= =E2=80=93 and I think what Mach states is also reinforcing the point that = Carlos has made =E2=80=93 which is that echo reply procedures are defined by RFC = 8029 =E2=80=93 not by RFC 5884.

=C2=A0

However, the current text= suffers from much more than the ambiguity regarding Echo Reply.<= /u>

=C2=A0

1)Second paragraph of Sec= tion 6 goes back and forth between discussing BFD Control packets, then Echo Reply, then BFD Control Packets

=C2=A0

2)Third paragraph of Sect= ion 6 has an inappropriate use of =E2=80=9C,=E2=80=9D in the sentence:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9CThe BFD Control = packets from the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 ingress to t= he egress LSR MUST set the local discriminator of the<= /p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 egress LSR, in the Your Discriminator field.=E2=80= =9D

=C2=A0

3)Section 6.1 defines whe= n the BFD Discriminator TLV MUST be sent and when it is optional in LSP ping. There is actually no need for Section 6 to say anything in this rega= rd.

=C2=A0

I propose revised text be= low =E2=80=93 which is much more extensive in its changes than what has bee= n proposed thus far, but I think it is necessary to eliminate all ambiguity.

That said, there is no qu= estion that the current text is subject to multiple interpretations =E2=80= =93 so any change in text runs the risk of introducing new interoperability issue= s. On balance it is probably necessary to take this risk as there is no gua= rantee that implementations are interoperable today, but the WG should stil= l consider this point carefully.

=C2=A0

The text below replaces c= urrent paragraphs 2 and 3 of Section 6.

=C2=A0

<new text start>

On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request messa= ge, the egress LSR MUST

=C2=A0=C2=A0 send a BFD Control packet to the= ingress LSR, if the validation of

=C2=A0=C2=A0 the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo req= uest message succeeds.=C2=A0 This BFD

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Control packet MUST set the Your= Discriminator field to the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 discriminator received from the = ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo

=C2=A0=C2=A0 request message.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2= =A0The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 MUST be used as the My Discrimin= ator field in the BFD session packets

=C2=A0=C2=A0 sent by the egress LSR.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 The ingress LSR follows the proc= edures in [BFD] to send BFD Control

=C2=A0=C2=A0 packets to the egress LSR in res= ponse to the BFD Control packets

=C2=A0=C2=A0 received from the egress LSR.=C2= =A0 The BFD Control packets from the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 ingress to the egress LSR MUST s= et the local discriminator of the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 egress LSR in the Your Discrimin= ator field.=C2=A0 The egress LSR

=C2=A0=C2=A0 demultiplexes the BFD session ba= sed on the received Your

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Discriminator field.=C2=A0 As me= ntioned above, the egress LSR MUST send

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Control packets to the ingress L= SR with the Your Discriminator field

=C2=A0=C2=A0 set to the local discriminator o= f the ingress LSR.=C2=A0 The ingress LSR

=C2=A0=C2=A0 uses this to demultiplex the BFD= session.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 The egress LSR follows the procedures = defined in [RFC 8029] to determine when to respond with an LSP Ping Echo=C2= =A0 reply message.

<new text end>=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Les

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rtg-bfd = [mailto:rtg-b= fd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mach Chen
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 12:56 AM
To: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Greg Mirsky
Cc: Tom Nadeau; m= pls@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella (kireeti@juniper.net); Alia Atlas; Reshad Rahman (rrah= man); rtg-bfd@ietf. org
Subject: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)

=C2=A0

Hi all,<= /u>

=C2=A0

IMHO, the point is not ab= out whether the Echo Reply is optional for a normal LSP Ping, where the echo reply is totally controlled by the reply mode. <= /p>

=C2=A0

For RFC5884, since the re= ply mode is not specified, based on the current text, it can be interpreted as the following two ways:

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 it implies a new =E2=80=9Cmode=E2=80=9D i= ntroduced, it=E2=80=99s actually a =E2=80=9Cspecial=E2=80=9D LSP Ping, =C2= =A0the process is just as what is currently described in the RFC: an Echo R= eply is OPTINAL, whether and when to send Echo Reply is up to the egress LSR, and the Ingress LSR s= hould not assume an Echo reply will be returned;

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the echo reply is still controlled by the= reply mode, and given that there is a =E2=80=9CDo not reply=E2=80=9D mode,= the current text seems right, but not that clear.

=C2=A0

I incline to think way (2= ) is more nature, if so, =C2=A0the proposed =E2=80=9CCorrected Text=E2=80= =9D may not work if the Sender set the reply mode to =E2=80=9CDo not reply=E2=80=9D.=

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99d suggest:

=C2=A0

Original Text
-------------
The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session.

=C2=A0

NEW:

The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session. Whether to send an LSP Ping Echo reply message is <= u>

determined by the reply mode carried the received Ec= ho request message. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Mach=

=C2=A0

From: Rtg-bf= d [mailto:rtg= -bfd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 8:17 AM
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: Tom Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com>; mpls@ietf.org; Kiree= ti Kompella (kiree= ti@juniper.net) <kireeti@juniper.net>; Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>; Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@cisco.com>; rtg-bfd@ietf. org <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)

=C2=A0

Greg,

=C2=A0

This is my final email on this topic, since the argu= ments are now just silly and not technically constructive.=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

1. It's not about understanding English. It'= s about understanding specs! The "(if any)" that you quote means = there are situations in which there's no echo reply. As I already expla= ined to you, that's for example the case with Reply-mode: No-reply. However= , the "(if any)" does not mean an Echo Reply is OPTIONAL. !! Or t= hat you choose when a reply is not sent!!

2. RFC 8029 obsoleted 4379. But to my recollection, = nothing changed relevant to this Errata.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

BFD for MPLS could have updated LSP ping behavior --= it just didn't.=C2=A0


Sent from my iPad


On Aug 14, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:=

Hi Carlos,

thank you for sharing your view on how LSP Echo requ= est with BFD Discriminator used to bootstrap a BFD session over MPLS LSP. I= 'm surprised that you refer to RFC 8029 as normative reference when commenting on RFC 5884. But even if we look into RFC 8029, = it still has the same texts I've quoted in the previous note that sugge= st that echo reply is optional. Consider one of them "The Sender's Handle is filled in by the sender and returned unchanged=C2=A0by the receiver in = the echo reply (if any)." Though English is my third language, I inter= pret "if any" in that sentence as clear indication that the echo = reply may not be sent ever.

=C2=A0

Regards= ,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Carlos Pignataro (c= pignata) <cpigna= ta@cisco.com> wrote:

Jeff, WG,

=C2=A0

I believe there is one additional consideration =E2= =80=94 please see inline.

=C2=A0

On Aug 11, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:=

=C2=A0

[Note that I have adj= usted the addresses in the headers to try to catch the
RFC authors' current accounts.]


The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up.=C2=A0 Balaji submitted an errata,= which
provides us with a good place to start technical discussion.

Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with
Balaji.


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote:

Section: 6

Original Text
-------------
The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for
the BFD session.

Corrected Text
--------------
The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that
MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session.


Notes
-----
It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optional:<= br> =C2=A0- =C2=A0The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the re= ply is optional
=C2=A0- =C2=A0The reply itself is optional

Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to repo= rt LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress.

=C2=A0

This is correct =E2=80=94 but even more so, technica= lly, it is not up to RFC 5884 to define when an LSP-Ping reply is optional = or not.

=C2=A0

That=E2=80=99s=E2=80=99 up to=C2=A0https://tools.= ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4

=C2=A0

Lacking a Reply Mode set to "Do not reply"= (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#page-12) the RFC 8029 procedu= res dictate a response be sent, independent of whether the RFC 5884 procedures= use that information or not.

=C2=A0

More below.

=C2=A0


The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. Thi= s was the intent of the original text.


My opinion follows:

In section 6 -

: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the eg= ress LSR MUST
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the va= lidation of
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds.= =C2=A0 This BFD
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to= the
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP = Ping Echo
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0request message.=C2=A0 The egress LSR MAY respond with = an LSP Ping Echo
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0reply message that carries the local discriminator assi= gned by it for
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the BFD session.=C2=A0 The local discriminator assigned= by the egress LSR
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD s= ession packets
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sent by the egress LSR.

In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session.=C2=A0 The rec= eipt
of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional.

This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the=
BFD session to come up as fast as possible.

=C2=A0

Yes, especially because the first sentence says that= the egress sending a BFD Control packet implies FEC validation passed. How= ever,=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029#section-4.4=C2= =A0does more than FEC validation.

=C2=A0


The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such
replies.=C2=A0 It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, sec= tion 3.2.

: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPL= S LSP fault
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0detection:
:
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping= the BFD session as described
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0later in this docum= ent.
:
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection= (i.e., BFD session)
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0packets at the requ= ired detection interval.
:
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the = control plane
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0against the data pl= ane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the same FEC, at th= e egress, as the ingress.

iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails.<= br> Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever.

However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving<= br> that the LSP is up.=C2=A0 Thus we have contradictory intent.

---

My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means.=C2=A0 I do not believe= the
likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply".=C2=A0 Among= other things, that
seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures.

Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

My individual opinion is that, as written, RFC 5884 = cannot mean any other thing that =E2=80=9C The egress LSR MUST respond with= an LSP Ping Echo reply message that

MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for= the BFD session=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

In other words, I support this errata.=

=C2=A0

This is because RFC 5884 did not update RFC 4379=E2= =80=99s procedures. And thus a response is needed based on 8029 irregardles= s of whether 5884 uses it.

=C2=A0

That said, it is debatable whether that LSP Ping res= ponse is useful or not. If it is not sent, it does not comply to 8029. But = if the WG wants for it to be not send, a new spec is needed.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

=C2=A0<= /p>

-- Jeff=

=C2=A0

=E2=80=94<= u>

Carlos Pignataro,=C2=A0<= a href=3D"mailto:carlos@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">carlos@cisco.com
=E2=80=9CSometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to ma= ke myself sound more=C2=A0photosynthesis."

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


--001a11410998ebc43f0556d37ad1-- From nobody Fri Aug 18 08:01:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADF7132608 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 16:42:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BTzd1zaib9jH for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 16:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1685D132429 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 16:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id B5753B81CC1; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 16:41:38 -0700 (PDT) To: rahul@juniper.net, kireeti@juniper.net, tom.nadeau@bt.com, swallow@cisco.com, akatlas@gmail.com, db3546@att.com, aretana@cisco.com, jhaas@pfrc.org, rrahman@cisco.com Subject: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5088) X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Cc: cpignata@cisco.com, rtg-bfd@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20170817234138.B5753B81CC1@rfc-editor.org> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 16:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 08:01:05 -0700 X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 23:42:03 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5884, "Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) for MPLS Label Switched Paths (LSPs)". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5088 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: Carlos Pignataro Section: 3.1,4,7,11.2 Original Text ------------- [5085] Corrected Text -------------- [5885] Notes ----- RFC 5884 refers to RFC 5085, when in fact it should refer to RFC 5885 (or at the very least to both RFCs 5085 and 5885 consecutively). Historically, RFC 5085 and RFC 5885 come from the same Internet-Draft, which was Referenced from RFC 5884. It included general VCCV as well as BFD for VCCV. Subsequently, that document was split into two I-Ds that resulted in RFCs 5085 and 5885. BFD for Pseudowires is actually covered by RFC 5885 (not 5085). In Section 3.1. BFD for MPLS LSPs: Motivation e) Pseudowires based on PWid FEC and Generalized PWid FEC [RFC4447] e) is covered by RFC 5885 as BFD single-hop for PWs. And not as per the more complex RFC 5884. A better technical normalization of BFD for PWs versus BFD for other MPLS LSPs is needed to adequately cover the subject matter of RFC 5884. Note, RFC 5884 and 5885 were part of the same RFC-Editor cluster. Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC5884 (draft-ietf-bfd-mpls-07) -------------------------------------- Title : Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) for MPLS Label Switched Paths (LSPs) Publication Date : June 2010 Author(s) : R. Aggarwal, K. Kompella, T. Nadeau, G. 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AHYfb5j7FvIqj+YW7ASidUuvxiOkrWNlhd9CVZDrZtZm3lfdkRB/WkQL aOspA0nYrkoz8tcH7bWoJyoBAwTJHQ== X-Received: by 10.46.9.16 with SMTP id 16mr460223ljj.155.1503454873915; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 19:21:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.88.81 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 19:21:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6F83D826-CF7F-462A-BE54-35F46D76A9A8@juniper.net> References: <20170811053550.27303B81263@rfc-editor.org> <20170811173930.GJ24942@pfrc.org> <705BEEE3-BC31-42CA-BE0F-06EB6E529A65@cisco.com> <6F83D826-CF7F-462A-BE54-35F46D76A9A8@juniper.net> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 19:21:12 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) To: Balaji Rajagopalan Cc: Mach Chen , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Jeffrey Haas , Kireeti Kompella , Thomas Nadeau , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , Alia Atlas Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114b12f4b215c50557625de4" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 02:21:19 -0000 --001a114b12f4b215c50557625de4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Balaji, I've been thinking about the value of including BFD Discriminator TLV in echo reply sent by egress. What we'd expect ingress to do upon receiving the reply? Match to bfd.remoteDiscr? I think that then echo reply must include the value from the original BFD Discriminator TLV so that ingress uses it to demux BFD sessions. Or ingress doesn't validate the value in BFD Discriminator TLV but only that the TLV is included in reply? If we leave actions of the ingress upon receipt of the reply with BFD Discriminator underspecified it may result in another set of interoperability issues. Perhaps the simplest way to avoid that would be to not allow BFD Discriminator TLV in the reply. Regards, Greg On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 2:16 AM, Balaji Rajagopalan wrote: > That sounds better. How about the following text? > > > > The egress LSR MUST follow the procedures described in [RFC4379] in > processing the LSP Ping request. The LSP Ping reply generated by the egre= ss > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. > > > > -- > > Balaji Rajagopalan > > > > *From: *Mach Chen > *Date: *Thursday, 17 August 2017 at 8:45 AM > *To: *"Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Balaji > Rajagopalan , Greg Mirsky , > Jeffrey Haas > *Cc: *Kireeti Kompella , Thomas Nadeau < > tnadeau@lucidvision.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "Reshad > Rahman (rrahman)" , Alia Atlas > *Subject: *RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) > > > > Indeed, I also like Les=E2=80=99s suggestion! > > > > Best regards, > > Mach > > > > *From:* Rtg-bfd [mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Carlos > Pignataro (cpignata) > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2017 10:20 PM > *To:* Balaji Rajagopalan ; Greg Mirsky < > gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Jeffrey Haas > *Cc:* Kireeti Kompella ; Thomas Nadeau < > tnadeau@lucidvision.com>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org; Reshad Rahman (rrahman) < > rrahman@cisco.com>; Alia Atlas > *Subject:* Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) > > > > This sounds like a good summary of the tactical fix. > > > > (Although, like Les wrote down, saying =E2=80=9CMUST follow [LSP-Ping]=E2= =80=9D is better > than =E2=80=9CMUST Send a Reply=E2=80=9D) > > > > As an aside -- When it comes to Interop, I remember also issues around th= e > UDP Port on the egress BFD Control packet, depending on whether the > response is IP-based vs. over an MPLS LSP. Tracking this down, this was > identified at https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtg-bfd/current/ > msg00447.html (comments on Sections 6 and 7), and it seems, we may have > the right bug but a wrong fix. > > > > Thanks, > > > > -- Carlos. > > > > *From: *Rtg-bfd on behalf of Balaji > Rajagopalan > *Date: *Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 1:23 AM > *To: *Greg Mirsky , Jeff Haas > *Cc: *Kireeti Kompella , Tom Nadeau < > tnadeau@lucidvision.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "Reshad > Rahman (rrahman)" , Alia Atlas > *Subject: *Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) > > > > I=E2=80=99m aware of three different behaviours from three different vend= ors that > I came across in the course of inter-op: > > - Always respond to an LSP-Ping request carrying a BFD disc > > - Never send a response to an LSP-Ping request carrying a BFD dis= c > > - Don=E2=80=99t respond to the first LSP-Ping request carrying a = BFD > disc, but respond to the subsequent ones > > > > This experience leads me to believe that this procedure is NOT > well-understood. So, publication of errata on this issue is necessary. > > > > As some of the co-authors have clarified in further emails, inclusion of > BFD discriminator in the LSP-Ping request does not change LSP-Ping=E2=80= =99s basic > function. So, the egress must send a reply. This is what the erratum > clarifies. > > > > -- > > Balaji Rajagopalan > > > > > > > > *From: *Rtg-bfd on behalf of Greg Mirsky < > gregimirsky@gmail.com> > *Date: *Friday, 11 August 2017 at 11:42 PM > *To: *Jeffrey Haas > *Cc: *Kireeti Kompella , Thomas Nadeau < > tnadeau@lucidvision.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "Reshad > Rahman (rrahman)" , Alia Atlas > *Subject: *Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085) > > > > Re-sending to the corrected list (apologies for duplicates). > > > > Dear All, > > I suggest to reject this proposal. The current text is clear and the > mechanics of bootstrapping BFD session over MPLS LSP is well understood - > remote peer MUST start sending BFD control packets first and BFD peer MAY > send Echo Reply with its Local Discriminator as value in BFD Discriminato= r > TLV. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > > [Note that I have adjusted the addresses in the headers to try to catch t= he > RFC authors' current accounts.] > > > The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up. Balaji submitted an errata, > which > provides us with a good place to start technical discussion. > > Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with > Balaji. > > > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: > > Section: 6 > > > > Original Text > > ------------- > > The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > > reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for > > the BFD session. > > > > Corrected Text > > -------------- > > The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that > > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session. > > > > > > Notes > > ----- > > It is not clear from the original text which of the following is > optional: > > - The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminator in the reply i= s > optional > > - The reply itself is optional > > > > Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to > report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress. > > > > The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply. > This was the intent of the original text. > > My opinion follows: > > In section 6 - > > : On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress LSR MUST > : send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validation of > : the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds. This BFD > : Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the > : discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping Echo > : request message. The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo > : reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it fo= r > : the BFD session. The local discriminator assigned by the egress LSR > : MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD session packet= s > : sent by the egress LSR. > > In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD > packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session. The receip= t > of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional. > > This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want t= he > BFD session to come up as fast as possible. > > The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such > replies. It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, section 3.= 2. > > : Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP fault > : detection: > : > : i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD session as describe= d > : later in this document. > : > : ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BFD session) > : packets at the required detection interval. > : > : iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the control plane > : against the data plane by ensuring that the LSP is mapped to > : the same FEC, at the egress, as the ingress. > > iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails= . > Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever. > > However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information provin= g > that the LSP is up. Thus we have contradictory intent. > > --- > > My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have > the BFD session come up by the most expedient means. I do not believe th= e > likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply". Among other things, th= at > seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures. > > Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the > Working Group: Debating intent and related text. > > -- Jeff > > > --001a114b12f4b215c50557625de4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Balaji,
I've been thinking about the value of i= ncluding BFD Discriminator TLV in echo reply sent by egress. What we'd = expect ingress to do upon receiving the reply? Match to bfd.remoteDiscr? I = think that then echo reply must include the value from the original BFD Dis= criminator TLV so that ingress uses it to demux BFD sessions. Or ingress do= esn't validate the value in BFD Discriminator TLV but only that the TLV= is included in reply? If we leave actions of the ingress upon receipt of t= he reply with BFD Discriminator underspecified it may result in another set= of interoperability issues. Perhaps the simplest way to avoid that would b= e to not allow BFD Discriminator TLV in the reply.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 2:16 AM, Balaji Rajagopalan <= balajir@juniper.net> wrote:

That sounds bett= er. How about the following text?

=C2=A0=

The egress LSR M= UST follow the procedures described in [RFC4379] in processing the LSP Ping= request. The LSP Ping reply generated by the egress MAY carry the local di= scriminator assigned by it for the BFD session.

=C2=A0=

--=

Balaji Rajagopal= an

=C2=A0=

F= rom: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com= >
Date: Thursday, 17 August 2017 at 8:45 AM
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>, Balaji Raja= gopalan <balaji= r@juniper.net>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>, Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com&= gt;, "rtg-bfd@ie= tf.org" <= rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, = Alia Atlas <akatl= as@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)

=C2=A0

Indeed, I also like Les=E2=80=99s suggestion!<= u>

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Mach

=C2=A0

From: R= tg-bfd [mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 10:20 PM
To: Balaji Rajagopalan <balajir@juniper.net>; Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>;= Jeffrey Haas <jhaas= @pfrc.org>
Cc: Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>; Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com&= gt;; rtg-bfd@ietf.org= ; Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@cisco.com>; Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)

=C2=A0

This sounds like a good summary of the tactical fix.<= /p>

=C2=A0

(Although, like Les wrote down, saying =E2=80=9CMUST follow [LSP-Ping]=E2= =80=9D is better than =E2=80=9CMUST Send a Reply=E2=80=9D)=

=C2=A0

As an aside -- When it comes to Interop, I remember also issues around the= UDP Port on the egress BFD Control packet, depending on whether the respon= se is IP-based vs. over an MPLS LSP.=C2=A0 Tracking this down, this was identified at https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtg-bfd/current/msg00447.ht= ml (comments on Sections 6 and 7), and it seems, we may have the right = bug but a wrong fix.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

=C2=A0

-- Carlos.

=C2=A0

From: Rtg-bfd <rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Balaji= Rajagopalan <b= alajir@juniper.net>
Date: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 1:23 AM
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Jeff Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>, Tom Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com>= , "rtg-bfd@ietf.= org" <rtg= -bfd@ietf.org>, "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m awar= e of three different behaviours from three different vendors that I came ac= ross in the course of inter-op:

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Always resp= ond to an LSP-Ping request carrying a BFD disc

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Never send = a response to an LSP-Ping request carrying a BFD disc<= /p>

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Don=E2=80= =99t respond to the first LSP-Ping request carrying a BFD disc, but respond= to the subsequent ones

=C2=A0

This experience = leads me to believe that this procedure is NOT well-understood.=C2=A0 So, p= ublication of errata on this issue is necessary.

=C2=A0=

As some of the c= o-authors have clarified in further emails, inclusion of BFD discriminator = in the LSP-Ping request does not change LSP-Ping=E2=80=99s basic function. = So, the egress must send a reply. This is what the erratum clarifies.

=C2=A0=

--=

Balaji Rajagopal= an

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

F= rom: Rtg-bfd <rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org= > on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, 11 August 2017 at 11:42 PM
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>, Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com&= gt;, "rtg-bfd@ie= tf.org" <= rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)

=C2=A0

Re-sending to the corrected list (apologies for dupl= icates).

=C2=A0

Dear All, =

I suggest to reject = this proposal. The current text is clear and the mechanics of bootstrapping= BFD session over MPLS LSP is well understood - remote peer MUST start send= ing BFD control packets first and BFD peer MAY send Echo Reply with its Local Discriminator as value in BFD Disc= riminator TLV.

=C2=A0=

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Jeffrey Haas <<= a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org" target=3D"_blank">jhaas@pfrc.org> w= rote:

[Note that I have adj= usted the addresses in the headers to try to catch the
RFC authors' current accounts.]


The 5884 interop issue keeps bubbling up.=C2=A0 Balaji submitted an errata,= which
provides us with a good place to start technical discussion.

Please note I also spent some time off-list discussing this errata with
Balaji.


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 10:35:50PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote:
> Section: 6
>
> Original Text
> -------------
> The egress LSR MAY respond with an LSP Ping Echo
> reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned by it for<= br> > the BFD session.
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
> The egress LSR MUST respond with an LSP Ping Echo reply message that > MAY carry the local discriminator assigned by it for the BFD session.<= br> >
>
> Notes
> -----
> It is not clear from the original text which of the following is optio= nal:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 The egress MUST send a reply, but the discriminato= r in the reply is optional
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 The reply itself is optional
>
> Technically, the reply cannot be optional, because the egress needs to= report LSP-Ping verification status to the ingress.
>
> The proposed text recommends to include BFD discriminator in the reply= . This was the intent of the original text.

My opinion follows:

In section 6 -

:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On receipt of the LSP Ping Echo request message, the egress = LSR MUST
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 send a BFD Control packet to the ingress LSR, if the validat= ion of
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the FEC in the LSP Ping Echo request message succeeds.=C2=A0= This BFD
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Control packet MUST set the Your Discriminator field to the<= br> :=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discriminator received from the ingress LSR in the LSP Ping = Echo
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 request message.=C2=A0 The egress LSR MAY respond with an LS= P Ping Echo
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reply message that carries the local discriminator assigned = by it for
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the BFD session.=C2=A0 The local discriminator assigned by t= he egress LSR
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST be used as the My Discriminator field in the BFD sessio= n packets
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sent by the egress LSR.

In the text above, I consider it quite clear that the receipt of the BFD packet contains sufficient state to bring up the BFD session.=C2=A0 The rec= eipt
of the same Discriminator in the LSP Ping Echo Reply is optional.

This makes sense partially because the reply may be dropped and we want the=
BFD session to come up as fast as possible.

The point of contention appears to be what to do if we *never* get such
replies.=C2=A0 It's worth pointing out additional text in RFC 5884, sec= tion 3.2.

:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hence, BFD is used in conjunction with LSP Ping for MPLS LSP= fault
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 detection:
:
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0i) LSP Ping is used for bootstrapping the BFD s= ession as described
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 later in this document.
:
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ii) BFD is used to exchange fault detection (i.e., BF= D session)
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 packets at the required detection inter= val.
:
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0iii) LSP Ping is used to periodically verify the contr= ol plane
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 against the data plane by ensuring that= the LSP is mapped to
:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the same FEC, at the egress, as the ing= ress.

iii above reminds us that the LSP may be torn down because LSP Ping fails.<= br> Thus, it seems problematic that we do not get a reply ever.

However, with the BFD session in the Up state, we have information proving<= br> that the LSP is up.=C2=A0 Thus we have contradictory intent.

---

My opinion is that the MAY in the RFC 5884 procedures is intended to have the BFD session come up by the most expedient means.=C2=A0 I do not believe= the
likely intent was to say "don't send Echo Reply".=C2=A0 Among= other things, that
seems contrary to the intent of the general LSP Ping procedures.

Having given my personal observations, we now get to the business of the Working Group: Debating intent and related text.

-- Jeff

=C2=A0


--001a114b12f4b215c50557625de4-- From nobody Tue Aug 29 11:01:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089291329BD; Tue, 29 Aug 2017 11:01:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LQhY0rPBgCoJ; Tue, 29 Aug 2017 11:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22b.google.com (mail-lf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B98C1321AF; Tue, 29 Aug 2017 11:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id d17so16273757lfe.1; Tue, 29 Aug 2017 11:01:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+otYG/I+7snEjZtY0FwNP3HAWWRSygtdbHM97CuYR0o=; b=FgjSogclV/pFNXilh1XpTpVEaOWipB7r+kfI1Xg3puSkqf1+PgcYCw+9SaHeAvpxeY cmP/7ZzfFK649QT0dmwFHYHN1izoAnC2fh2uzIfmJOvW3O9aVz8R9lvePus/s1N2ydS4 ClPA8fmO5tvaQAXPYOYAmJO/6bXQ7fLlWYv+i3XmW/0tCHHME6s3Usw4Wn9ybZC+pgeR a7r9itp3QyvUnWfiAV6KfRVyFrQQyB6kE3w2GJGYVSoBFxWSEJ6ofYX4AhCJuOcxbbNv TzF5oBbXBru9dPO/AfEdeupRhL89xFVivvMSgYjKabYiPsSbXAHoc5+p7gd0IimieJga a3sg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+otYG/I+7snEjZtY0FwNP3HAWWRSygtdbHM97CuYR0o=; b=qz6gvvmOw+WL/QnDmyhNtDX4biN0nJEVBUHHDv0k3NJlt0oPrYiyIK4gWpYzkm6h+0 RuWCy4FWVwinf8xY7tHpsXsGdS5y/7M2RjFyc4Yqn8zXXq1DehyrU7fOPVgztXzHu+OR Ji5F0zcIDRwDy3eb7LFzHv5Ygr64P4L5d/rWk0ezG11DTuhB0Tvgn5nFDqDdiWTEc1oF irMlBMNyKbPOamxekzw34bspA6oxMIiIhhtliSHEtqMi1r7hg1SPsNYf5yEh+EKRdT9i cs0IWhgbYF94BsGoECfaW9u5JwV7OUDK+wCjsq3q/JwNvgxVPO+1k4fW7Lb8cOyMzp5r Lpag== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5iyVHU6BBVcacWaSh4NZ0drc1nTfwWdXUb5iyEkLSOSq9Hn+PT1 9AUUzjFUaodvAFpHAfhVRuU6Jiwbzg== X-Received: by 10.25.41.21 with SMTP id p21mr327408lfp.37.1504029666006; Tue, 29 Aug 2017 11:01:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.88.81 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Aug 2017 11:01:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 11:01:04 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd To: TABANI Thibault Cc: "draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd@ietf.org" , "nitisgup@cisco.com" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="001a114104d0fa0e5e0557e8312d" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 18:01:11 -0000 --001a114104d0fa0e5e0557e8312d Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114104d0fa0e5b0557e8312c" --001a114104d0fa0e5b0557e8312c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Thibault, thank you for your interest in the draft, much appreciated. Please don't be discouraged that it lapsed, we can fix it easily. I think that authors had similar to your idea when we've started thinking about BFD supporting VRRP. And like you we haven't found any reference in existing documents, hence this draft draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd. Would be much obliged if you review and share your comments, suggestion regarding solutions proposed in the draft. Regards, Greg On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 9:20 AM, TABANI Thibault wrote: > Hello, > > > > I am working at improving VRRP convergence time. (target a few 100=E2=80= =99s of > milliseconds) > > > > It appears that VRRP supports BFD health monitoring which might be a > better option than tuning VRRP aggressive timers. > > > > Unfortunately I cannot find any active RFC where VRRP supports BFD. The > only document I found is your draft document: > > > > Fast failure detection in VRRP with BFD > draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd-04 > > > > Unfortunately date expires of this document. As BFD support for VRRP is > implemented on most routers, I suppose that an active RFC might exist on > that specific BFD implementation within VRRP. (new backup advertisement > messages=E2=80=A6.peer table=E2=80=A6.) > > br > > > > > > *Thibault TABANI * > architect Altran Connected Solutions > Altran France > > > *[image: cid:image001.png@01CF8AFD.950B79F0]* > > > > 1, Impasse Charles Trenet > > 44800 Saint-Herblain > France > > Tel. : +33 2 40 67 62 62 <+33%202%2040%2067%2062%2062> > Mob. : +33 6 79 06 33 63 <+33%206%2079%2006%2033%2063> > *thibault.tabani@altran.com * > *www.altran.fr * > > > > [image: Description : Description : cid:image002.png@01CD89E1.42D19210] > [image: Description : Description : > cid:image003.png@01CD89E1.42D19210] [ima= ge: > Description : Description : LinkedIn_signatureMail] > [image: Description : > Description : pictog_viadeo] > > > --001a114104d0fa0e5b0557e8312c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Thibault,
thank you for your interest in the draft,= much appreciated. Please don't be discouraged that it lapsed, we can f= ix it easily. I think that authors had similar to your idea when we've = started thinking about BFD supporting VRRP. And like you we haven't fou= nd any reference in existing documents, hence this draft draft-nitish-vrrp-= bfd. Would be much obliged if you review and share your comments, suggestio= n regarding solutions proposed in the draft.

Regar= ds,
Greg

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 9:20 AM, TABANI Thibault <thi= bault.tabani@altran.com> wrote:

Hello,

=C2=A0

I am working at improving VRRP = convergence time. (target a few 100=E2=80=99s of milliseconds)

=C2=A0

It appears that VRRP supports B= FD health monitoring which might be a better option than tuning VRRP aggres= sive timers.

=C2=A0

Unfortunately I cannot find any= active RFC where VRRP supports BFD. The only document I found is your draf= t document:

=C2=A0

Fast failure detection in VRRP = with BFD
draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd-= 04

=C2=A0

Unfortunately date expires of t= his document.=C2=A0 As BFD support for VRRP is implemented on most routers,= I suppose that an active RFC might exist on that specific BFD implementati= on within VRRP. (new backup advertisement messages=E2=80=A6.peer table=E2=80=A6.)

br

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

T= hibault TABANI
architect Altran Connected Solutions
Altran France

<= br> 3D"cid:image001.png@01CF8AFD.950B79F0"

<= u>=C2=A0

1, Impasse Charles Trenet

44800 S= aint-Herblain
France

Tel. : = +33 2 40 67 62 62
Mob. : +33 6 79 06 33 63
thibault.taba= ni@altran.com
www.altran.f= r<= /u>

= =C2=A0

3D"Description=C2=A0:3D"Description=<= a href=3D"http://linkedin.com/company/altran-france" target=3D"_blank">3D"Description=C2=A0:3D"De=

=C2=A0


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X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 866CF132D91; Thu, 31 Aug 2017 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.199, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y74f3otk3uiU; Thu, 31 Aug 2017 06:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-f48.google.com (mail-oi0-f48.google.com [209.85.218.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 547E5132DFC; Thu, 31 Aug 2017 06:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-f48.google.com with SMTP id w10so5001477oie.1; Thu, 31 Aug 2017 06:10:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7OZy0JZNkicx+ZsjpVQYEa9hDqHkpa7C0BQGoUG5XYI=; b=C+mI2wOo7D8lLG7kLn13k4uDdOwcyFp216i+hs5eA055dp+6siVNXHdqHpKg18HAGh SBcbfnGKZkErzBKGXr6JA/F97MmvXm0+YOCsbVkvb2OPZTiznF7fcJmEkzmhg5xACeIe bcBBflcAHpDboeslazJ/5habziDJywItLDAJ/LpUpgP285y7wYwO8ujrU5jEgwfVZG8Q qMLWNnvFgNXz2WNxcWgFcKODIANTGtXaRNSzPQNbkpKpmMpCfGd8Q8x4J1kD+oOCpkfz ZjSvkf8v8c9AJqrhOHQwUfMkVg6CUVchOGz8x8ii4j8l8dBJk1ju8hHq6ufmn2l3Rkdb Fa9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jV5SLoThDvG7dPPLo1PpPmBJUXnEJ8+/HmlhyJD1WrrvOF3Cae f2dADH58raykx7oinPgjZW//vD9skQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADKCNb5V05fEDkcBzHPemV6VjqAba8MNKCra/yUWhairGQHafn+iM7IlHfKBiHpBwLXoOeQTtAoY9V1J51IyiFFe2Vg= X-Received: by 10.202.196.135 with SMTP id u129mr5688355oif.241.1504185013315; Thu, 31 Aug 2017 06:10:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Colin Docherty Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 13:10:02 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "Nitish Gupta (nitisgup)" , "thibault.tabani@altran.com" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" Cc: "draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd@ietf.org" , "Aditya Dogra (addogra)" Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="001a113e2bb865658405580c5d13" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 07:48:08 -0700 X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 13:10:28 -0000 --001a113e2bb865658405580c5d13 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113e2bb865658205580c5d12" --001a113e2bb865658205580c5d12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Totally agree. Colin. On Thu, 31 Aug 2017 at 10:56 Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Hi Nitish, > > Irrespective of any IPR discussions, BFD is inherently a P2P protocol and= , > consequently, I would vote for P2P peer table. > > Thanks, > Acee > > From: rtgwg on behalf of "Nitish Gupta > (nitisgup)" > Date: Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 1:51 AM > To: "thibault.tabani@altran.com" , " > rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , Routing WG > Cc: "colin@doch.org.uk" , " > draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd@ietf.org" , "Aditya > Dogra (addogra)" > Subject: Re: draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd > > Hi Thibault, > > > > Thanks for the interest in the Draft, appreciate it. Please review the > draft and let us know if you have any comments, suggestions. > > > > Hi RTGWG/RTGBFD, > > > > There were two solutions proposed in the draft. > > One pertains to making a peer table in VRRP and uses p2p BFD. > > The second solution pertains to p2mp BFD. > > > > While we were working on the draft there was an IPR associated to the > DRAFT and the WG felt that we need to wait until we can see the IPR and > what its associated to. > > We can see that the IPR is available for us to view and we can see that > the IPR is associated to p2mp BFD. > > > > https://www.google.com/patents/US20170005915 > > > > We are going to submit a draft with the p2p BFD so that we can continue > working on the Draft. > > There was lot of interest last time as well, just because of the IPR clai= m > we had stopped the work. > > > > Thanks, > > Nitish > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 11:01 AM > *To: *TABANI Thibault > *Cc: *"draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd@ietf.org" , > "Nitish Gupta (nitisgup)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" < > rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "rtgwg@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd > *Resent-From: * > *Resent-To: *, , , > , > *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 11:01 AM > > > > Hi Thibault, > > thank you for your interest in the draft, much appreciated. Please don't > be discouraged that it lapsed, we can fix it easily. I think that authors > had similar to your idea when we've started thinking about BFD supporting > VRRP. And like you we haven't found any reference in existing documents, > hence this draft draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd. Would be much obliged if you revi= ew > and share your comments, suggestion regarding solutions proposed in the > draft. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 9:20 AM, TABANI Thibault < > thibault.tabani@altran.com> wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I am working at improving VRRP convergence time. (target a few 100=E2=80= =99s of > milliseconds) > > > > It appears that VRRP supports BFD health monitoring which might be a > better option than tuning VRRP aggressive timers. > > > > Unfortunately I cannot find any active RFC where VRRP supports BFD. The > only document I found is your draft document: > > > > Fast failure detection in VRRP with BFD > draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd-04 > > > > Unfortunately date expires of this document. As BFD support for VRRP is > implemented on most routers, I suppose that an active RFC might exist on > that specific BFD implementation within VRRP. (new backup advertisement > messages=E2=80=A6.peer table=E2=80=A6.) > > br > > > > > > *Thibault TABANI * > architect Altran Connected Solutions > Altran France > > > *[image: id:image001.png@01CF8AFD.950B79F0]* > > > > 1, Impasse Charles Trenet > > 44800 Saint-Herblain > France > > Tel. : +33 2 40 67 62 62 <+33%202%2040%2067%2062%2062> > Mob. : +33 6 79 06 33 63 <+33%206%2079%2006%2033%2063> > *thibault.tabani@altran.com * > *www.altran.fr * > > > > [image: escription : Description : cid:image002.png@01CD89E1.42D19210] > [image: escription : Description : > cid:image003.png@01CD89E1.42D19210] [ima= ge: > escription : Description : LinkedIn_signatureMail] > [image: escription : > Description : pictog_viadeo] > > > > > > --001a113e2bb865658205580c5d12 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Totally agree.

Colin.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2017 at 10:56 Acee Li= ndem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wr= ote:
Hi Nitish,=C2=A0

Irrespective of any IPR discussions, BFD is inherently a P2P protocol = and, consequently, I would vote for P2P peer table.=C2=A0

Thanks,
Acee=C2=A0

From: rtgwg <rtgwg-bounces@ietf.org> on = behalf of "Nitish Gupta (nitisgup)" <nitisgup@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, August 31, 2017 at = 1:51 AM
To: "thibault.tabani@altran.com"= <thibau= lt.tabani@altran.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Routing WG <rtgwg@i= etf.org>
Cc: "colin@doch.org.uk" <colin@doch.org.uk>, "= draft-n= itish-vrrp-bfd@ietf.org" <draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd@ietf.org>, "Aditya Dogra (addogra)" <addogra@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd<= br>

Hi Thibault,

=C2=A0

Thanks for the interest in the Draft, appreciate it. Please review the dra= ft and let us know if you have any comments, suggestions.

=C2=A0

Hi RTGWG/RTGBFD,

=C2=A0

There were two solutions proposed in the draft.

One pertains to making a peer table in VRRP and uses p2p BFD.

The second solution pertains to p2mp BFD.

=C2=A0

While we were working on the draft there was an IPR associated to the DRAF= T and the WG felt that we need to wait until we can see the IPR and what it= s associated to.

We can see that the IPR is available for us to view and we can see that th= e IPR is associated to p2mp BFD.

=C2=A0

https://www.google.com/patents/US20170005915

=C2=A0

We are going to submit a draft with the p2p BFD so that we can continue wo= rking on the Draft.

There was lot of interest last time as well, just because of the IPR claim= we had stopped the work.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Nitish

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Hi Thibault,

thank you for your interest in the draft, much appre= ciated. Please don't be discouraged that it lapsed, we can fix it easil= y. I think that authors had similar to your idea when we've started thi= nking about BFD supporting VRRP. And like you we haven't found any reference in existing documents, hence this d= raft draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd. Would be much obliged if you review and share y= our comments, suggestion regarding solutions proposed in the draft.<= u>

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 9:20 AM, TABANI Thibault <= ;thibault.t= abani@altran.com> wrote:

Hello,

=C2=A0

I am working at improving VRRP convergence time. (ta= rget a few 100=E2=80=99s of milliseconds)

=C2=A0

It appears that VRRP supports BFD health monitoring = which might be a better option than tuning VRRP aggressive timers.

=C2=A0

Unfortunately I cannot find any active RFC where VRR= P supports BFD. The only document I found is your draft document:

=C2=A0

Fast failure detection in VRRP with BFD
dra= ft-nitish-vrrp-bfd-04

=C2=A0

Unfortunately date expires of this document.=C2=A0 A= s BFD support for VRRP is implemented on most routers, I suppose that an ac= tive RFC might exist on that specific BFD implementation within VRRP. (new backup advertisement messages=E2=80=A6.peer table=E2=80= =A6.)

br

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thibault TABANI
architect Altran Connected Solutions
Altran France


=C2=A0=

1, Impa= sse Charles Trenet

44800 Saint-Herblain
France

Tel. : +33 2 40 67 6= 2 62
Mob. : +33 6 = 79 06 33 63
= thibault.ta= bani@altran.com
www.altran.fr

=C2=A0

3D"escription=C2=A0:3D"escription=C2=A0:3D"escription=C2=A0:= 3D"escription=C2=A0:=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bmUb20nK9/9oN36b0LY7rR/UEt7ZC7+K359DC5/vAc0=; b=nL/XUHkpyGH8qzmIpCo2pQQKK64N6QEKR7EhWynEcnZwUdhj3WPqTYk4BsxXaqlJhY 3dTUFx9+Uct+XXcUVnpNVUuMl6Ui8n13kL24Mjp8Mw3aDxXgZclM+yjJjKovkK9LlGnX PpXJ+682bM+GDZwh52UPjpLSZcuLXjwZwHi3XTgpVL20VJtF420OLwqow+97pC1zB2PL 9hGmu738gxWhJ0ziAePpVXV1jBUwghYEQ543Nr/5I+OS/9yEYw7/KEhzl2XLQB2JwXiQ a5RcnsQHzjjkhtUr6E44JjA1YMX9yf0IIGtDXrWHN0OL6YNpP+bZmxyPnDN+BoKMgk/A 9ZIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bmUb20nK9/9oN36b0LY7rR/UEt7ZC7+K359DC5/vAc0=; b=OFfACJLYDuSmxjMD5SdBii6uHQg2w+N6+CR3EaU3NmSkEXYuSBQ/Zsuvv+lAd5vyDi 3B7+kSpbBw5atgxwh3E55psruvvoUwOwGpkPlEEzXnT0iTUcGAQRvCQ4ZgFV1rY4xFRr xb5aIEyuuIkDJQU1ODfBNB4v4hoFtQBImAIS3Y0q31oAiBbcP+sumwtNpBcfNV15qaDz 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X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 11:05:24 -0700 X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 17:20:20 -0000 --001a114f174e6a292b05580fdbd4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114f174e6a292905580fdbd3" --001a114f174e6a292905580fdbd3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Acee, I'd refer to BFD for Multipoint Networks that being prepared for publication. I believe that this very nicely matches VRRP scenario when Backup need to monitor the Master and Master doesn't have to know about the Backup at all. Appreciate your consideration and comments. Regards, Greg On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 2:55 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Hi Nitish, > > Irrespective of any IPR discussions, BFD is inherently a P2P protocol and= , > consequently, I would vote for P2P peer table. > > Thanks, > Acee > > From: rtgwg on behalf of "Nitish Gupta > (nitisgup)" > Date: Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 1:51 AM > To: "thibault.tabani@altran.com" , " > rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , Routing WG > Cc: "colin@doch.org.uk" , "draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd@ietf. > org" , "Aditya Dogra (addogra)" < > addogra@cisco.com> > Subject: Re: draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd > > Hi Thibault, > > > > Thanks for the interest in the Draft, appreciate it. Please review the > draft and let us know if you have any comments, suggestions. > > > > Hi RTGWG/RTGBFD, > > > > There were two solutions proposed in the draft. > > One pertains to making a peer table in VRRP and uses p2p BFD. > > The second solution pertains to p2mp BFD. > > > > While we were working on the draft there was an IPR associated to the > DRAFT and the WG felt that we need to wait until we can see the IPR and > what its associated to. > > We can see that the IPR is available for us to view and we can see that > the IPR is associated to p2mp BFD. > > > > https://www.google.com/patents/US20170005915 > > > > We are going to submit a draft with the p2p BFD so that we can continue > working on the Draft. > > There was lot of interest last time as well, just because of the IPR clai= m > we had stopped the work. > > > > Thanks, > > Nitish > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 11:01 AM > *To: *TABANI Thibault > *Cc: *"draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd@ietf.org" , > "Nitish Gupta (nitisgup)" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" < > rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "rtgwg@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd > *Resent-From: * > *Resent-To: *, , , > , > *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 11:01 AM > > > > Hi Thibault, > > thank you for your interest in the draft, much appreciated. Please don't > be discouraged that it lapsed, we can fix it easily. I think that authors > had similar to your idea when we've started thinking about BFD supporting > VRRP. And like you we haven't found any reference in existing documents, > hence this draft draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd. Would be much obliged if you revi= ew > and share your comments, suggestion regarding solutions proposed in the > draft. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 9:20 AM, TABANI Thibault < > thibault.tabani@altran.com> wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I am working at improving VRRP convergence time. (target a few 100=E2=80= =99s of > milliseconds) > > > > It appears that VRRP supports BFD health monitoring which might be a > better option than tuning VRRP aggressive timers. > > > > Unfortunately I cannot find any active RFC where VRRP supports BFD. The > only document I found is your draft document: > > > > Fast failure detection in VRRP with BFD > draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd-04 > > > > Unfortunately date expires of this document. As BFD support for VRRP is > implemented on most routers, I suppose that an active RFC might exist on > that specific BFD implementation within VRRP. (new backup advertisement > messages=E2=80=A6.peer table=E2=80=A6.) > > br > > > > > > *Thibault TABANI * > architect Altran Connected Solutions > Altran France > > > *[image: id:image001.png@01CF8AFD.950B79F0]* > > > > 1, Impasse Charles Trenet > > 44800 Saint-Herblain > France > > Tel. : +33 2 40 67 62 62 <+33%202%2040%2067%2062%2062> > Mob. : +33 6 79 06 33 63 <+33%206%2079%2006%2033%2063> > *thibault.tabani@altran.com * > *www.altran.fr * > > > > [image: escription : Description : cid:image002.png@01CD89E1.42D19210] > [image: escription : Description : > cid:image003.png@01CD89E1.42D19210] [ima= ge: > escription : Description : LinkedIn_signatureMail] > [image: escription : > Description : pictog_viadeo] > > > > > > --001a114f174e6a292905580fdbd3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Acee,
I'd refer to BFD for Multip= oint Networks that being prepared for publication. I believe that this = very nicely matches VRRP scenario when Backup need to monitor the Master an= d Master doesn't have to know about the Backup at all.
Apprec= iate your consideration and comments.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 2:55 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com= > wrote:
Hi Nitish,=C2=A0

Irrespective of any IPR discussions, BFD is inherently a P2P protocol = and, consequently, I would vote for P2P peer table.=C2=A0

Thanks,
Acee=C2=A0

From: rtgwg <rtgwg-bounces@ietf.org> on = behalf of "Nitish Gupta (nitisgup)" <nitisgup@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, August 31, 2017 at = 1:51 AM
To: "thibault.tabani@altran.com"= <thibau= lt.tabani@altran.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Routing WG <rtgwg@i= etf.org>
Cc: "colin@doch.org.uk" <colin@doch.org.uk>, "= draft-n= itish-vrrp-bfd@ietf.org" <draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd@ietf.org= >, "Aditya Dogra (addogra)" <addogra@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd<= br>

Hi Thibault,

=C2=A0

Thanks for the interest in the Draft, appreciate it. Please review the dra= ft and let us know if you have any comments, suggestions.

=C2=A0

Hi RTGWG/RTGBFD,

=C2=A0

There were two solutions proposed in the draft.

One pertains to making a peer table in VRRP and uses p2p BFD.

The second solution pertains to p2mp BFD.

=C2=A0

While we were working on the draft there was an IPR associated to the DRAF= T and the WG felt that we need to wait until we can see the IPR and what it= s associated to.

We can see that the IPR is available for us to view and we can see that th= e IPR is associated to p2mp BFD.

=C2=A0

https://www.google.com/patents/US20170005915=

=C2=A0

We are going to submit a draft with the p2p BFD so that we can continue wo= rking on the Draft.

There was lot of interest last time as well, just because of the IPR claim= we had stopped the work.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Nitish

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Hi Thibault,

thank you for your interest in the draft, much appre= ciated. Please don't be discouraged that it lapsed, we can fix it easil= y. I think that authors had similar to your idea when we've started thi= nking about BFD supporting VRRP. And like you we haven't found any reference in existing documents, hence this d= raft draft-nitish-vrrp-bfd. Would be much obliged if you review and share y= our comments, suggestion regarding solutions proposed in the draft.<= u>

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 9:20 AM, TABANI Thibault <= ;thibault.t= abani@altran.com> wrote:

Hello,

=C2=A0

I am working at improving VRRP convergence time. (ta= rget a few 100=E2=80=99s of milliseconds)

=C2=A0

It appears that VRRP supports BFD health monitoring = which might be a better option than tuning VRRP aggressive timers.

=C2=A0

Unfortunately I cannot find any active RFC where VRR= P supports BFD. The only document I found is your draft document:

=C2=A0

Fast failure detection in VRRP with BFD
dr= aft-nitish-vrrp-bfd-04

=C2=A0

Unfortunately date expires of this document.=C2=A0 A= s BFD support for VRRP is implemented on most routers, I suppose that an ac= tive RFC might exist on that specific BFD implementation within VRRP. (new backup advertisement messages=E2=80=A6.peer table=E2=80= =A6.)

br

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thibault TABANI
architect Altran Connected Solutions
Altran France


3D"id:image001.png@01CF8AFD.950B79F0"<= /u>

=C2=A0=

1, Impa= sse Charles Trenet

44800 Saint-Herblain
France

Tel. : +33 2 40 67 6= 2 62
Mob. : +33 6 = 79 06 33 63
= thibault.ta= bani@altran.com
www.altran.fr

=C2=A0

3D"escription=C2=A0:3D"escription=C2=A0:= 3D"escription=C2=A0:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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