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Hello Mirja,

time has passed since the last exchanges on that. To reinitiate the 
discussion, I come back to your original points.


Le 2018-07-03 à 20:31, Mirja Kühlewind a écrit :
> Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-18: Discuss
> 
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> 
> 
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint/
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> This mechanism has the potentially to easily overload the network as there is
> no handshake and therefore also no feedback mechanism (as already noted by the
> TSV-ART review of Bob - Thanks!). Regarding the base spec in RFC5880, this
> mechanism can only be used under certain constrains which should be clearly
> stated in this doc, which are:
> 
> 1) See sec 6.8.1 of RFC5880:
> "bfd.DesiredMinTxInterval
>        [...] The actual
>        interval is negotiated between the two systems.  This MUST be
>        initialized to a value of at least one second (1,000,000
>        microseconds) according to the rules described in section 6.8.3."
> As there no negotiation in this spec, bfd.DesiredMinTxInterval MUST always be
> at least one second. Actually RFC8085 even recommend 3 sec (see sec 3.1.3).

There are two aspects to this.
First, draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint is consistent with 5880 on the 
initialization. So I think we are on the safe side.
Second, limiting a variable to only take certain values seems to me as 
being outside the scope of a protocol spec. We are touching there 
operational considerations.
If a user needs and wants to set a variable to a given value in a 
specific environment we can't forbid that. We can however raise his 
awareness on the potential consequences of a given choice.

> 2) See sec 7 of RFC 8085
> "When BFD is used across multiple hops, a congestion control mechanism
>     MUST be implemented, and when congestion is detected, the BFD
>     implementation MUST reduce the amount of traffic it generates. "
> As there is no feedback and therefore no congestion control, this spec can only
> be used for one-hop scenarios and the TTL or Hop Count MUST be set to one.

Rather than limiting the use cases of bfd-multipoint, I think we should 
set the same constraints than in base BFD spec.

> 3) Also given the traffic load multipoint BFD generates depends on the number
> of active session, and there is no feedback mechanism, I recommend to also
> limit the number of active session of MultipointHead type to a small number
> (per link).

x.  Operational Considerations

    Use of BFD in multipoint networks, as specified in this document,
    over multiple hops requires consideration of the mechanisms to react
    to network congestion.  Requirements stated in Section 7 of the BFD
    base specification [RFC5880] equally apply to BFD in multipoint
    networks.

    Furthermore, because a tail does not transmit any BFD Control packets
    to the head of the BFD session, Min RX Interval cannot be used to
    control the BFD packet transmission rate at the MultipointHead.  The
    mechanism to control the load of BFD traffic MAY use BFD's
    configuration interface to control BFD state variable
    bfd.DesiredMinTxInterval. Details of the interface and the mechanism
    itself are outside the scope of this document.

    Also, enabling BFD in such environments should be done considering
    the recommendations laid out in RFC 8085 [RFC8085].


I really hope that to be ok for the document to move forward.

Thank you
-m


From nobody Mon Oct  8 07:41:35 2018
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection WG of the IETF.

        Title           : BFD for VXLAN
        Authors         : Santosh Pallagatti
                          Sudarsan Paragiri
                          Vengada Prasad Govindan
                          Mallik Mudigonda
                          Greg Mirsky
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2018-10-08

Abstract:
   This document describes the use of the Bidirectional Forwarding
   Detection (BFD) protocol in Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network
   (VXLAN) overlay networks.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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From nobody Mon Oct  8 07:47:53 2018
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--0000000000005eed190577b8b3b4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Dear All,
the new version is to address comments from Marc (big thank you, Marc).
Please note that IDNits err on downref to the normative reference
to Informational RFC 7348.

Regards,
Greg
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 7:41 AM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt
To: Gregory Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Mallik Mudigonda <
mmudigon@cisco.com>, Sudarsan Paragiri <sparagiri@juniper.net>, Vengada
Prasad Govindan <venggovi@cisco.com>, Santosh Pallagatti <
santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
Revision:       03
Title:          BFD for VXLAN
Document date:  2018-10-08
Group:          bfd
Pages:          10
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03

Abstract:
   This document describes the use of the Bidirectional Forwarding
   Detection (BFD) protocol in Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network
   (VXLAN) overlay networks.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--0000000000005eed190577b8b3b4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>Dear All,<div>the new version is to a=
ddress comments from Marc (big thank you, Marc).</div><div>Please note that=
 IDNits err on downref=C2=A0to the normative reference to=C2=A0Informationa=
l RFC=C2=A07348.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg<br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">---------- Forwarded message --------=
-<br>From: <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org=
">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 7:41=
 AM<br>Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt<br=
>To: Gregory Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Mallik Mudigonda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mmudigon@cisco.=
com">mmudigon@cisco.com</a>&gt;, Sudarsan Paragiri &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sp=
aragiri@juniper.net">sparagiri@juniper.net</a>&gt;, Vengada Prasad Govindan=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:venggovi@cisco.com">venggovi@cisco.com</a>&gt;, Sant=
osh Pallagatti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com">santosh.=
pallagatti@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A003<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFD for VXLAN<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2018-10-08<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bfd<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 10<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.tx=
t</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools=
.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan</a><br>
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03</a><br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes the use of the Bidirectional Forwardin=
g<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Detection (BFD) protocol in Virtual eXtensible Local Area Netw=
ork<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(VXLAN) overlay networks.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
</div></div></div></div>

--0000000000005eed190577b8b3b4--


From nobody Thu Oct 11 16:26:02 2018
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Optimizing BFD Authentication
        Authors         : Mahesh Jethanandani
                          Ashesh Mishra
                          Ankur Saxena
                          Manav Bhatia
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.txt
	Pages           : 7
	Date            : 2018-10-11

Abstract:
   This document describes an optimization to BFD Authentication as
   described in Section 6.7 of BFD RFC5880.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06


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From nobody Thu Oct 11 16:31:40 2018
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From: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.txt
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:31:32 -0700
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This version of the draft addresses comments received at IETF 102 as =
part of LC. At this point, the authors believe that this document, along =
with draft-ietf-bfd-secure-sequence-numbers and draft-ietf-bfd-stability =
are ready for IESG.

Thanks.

> On Oct 11, 2018, at 4:25 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection WG =
of the IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : Optimizing BFD Authentication
>        Authors         : Mahesh Jethanandani
>                          Ashesh Mishra
>                          Ankur Saxena
>                          Manav Bhatia
> 	Filename        : =
draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.txt
> 	Pages           : 7
> 	Date            : 2018-10-11
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document describes an optimization to BFD Authentication as
>   described in Section 6.7 of BFD RFC5880.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication/=

>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentica=
tion-06
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authenticati=
on-06
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com




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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 13:10:44 -0700
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Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.txt
To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
Cc: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Hi Mahesh, Authors, et. al,
thank you for your thoughtful consideration of the discussion in Montreal.
I've checked the changes in the new version and I think that the agreement
we've reached was not merely recommend that the authenticated BFD Control
packets be sent as series of at least Detect Multiplier packets but
require, i.e., make it mandatory for both periodic and state change modes.
Here's the quote from the minutes:
    Jeff Haas: one possibility is to send detect multiplier number of
consecutive authenticated packets, then the session will go down if
authentication packets fail validation.
    Greg Mirsky: does that require use of P/F procedure?
    Jeff Haas: P/F is not needed, we send consecutive authenticated packets
    Mahesh Jethanandani: we can make that change.
    Reshad Rahman: is there a need to do the same for state change?
    Mahesh Jethanandani: every state change packet has to be authenticated.
    Jeff Haas: for pedantic reasons, when making the state change we should
do the same. On P/F sequence we should do    this for the new multiplier if
it=E2=80=99s longer. We=E2=80=99ll take this back to the mailing list.
Thus I suggest to consider changes along the following:
OLD TEXT:
 To detect a Man In the Middle (MITM)
   attack, it is also proposed that a non-state change frame be
   authenticated occasionally.  The interval of this non-state change
   frame can be configured depending on the detect multiplier and the
   capability of the system.  As an example, this could be equal to the
   detect multiplier number of packets.
NEW TEXT:
  To detect a Man In the Middle (MITM)
   attack, it is also proposed that a non-state change set of authenticated
frames be
   sent occasionally.  The number of consecutively transmitted
authenticated BFD control packets in the set
   MUST be not lesser than the value of the Detect Multiplier and the
interval between such non-state change
   set of frames can be configured depending on the
   capability of the system.
If acceptable, similar change should be made to the following text:
   Authenticating a small subset of these frames, for example, a detect
   multiplier number of packets per configured period, significantly
   reduces the computational demand for the system while maintaining
   security of the session across the configured authentication periods.
to change from recommendation "for example" to stronger normative language.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 4:31 PM Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.co=
m>
wrote:

> This version of the draft addresses comments received at IETF 102 as part
> of LC. At this point, the authors believe that this document, along with
> draft-ietf-bfd-secure-sequence-numbers and draft-ietf-bfd-stability are
> ready for IESG.
>
> Thanks.
>
> > On Oct 11, 2018, at 4:25 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> >
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection WG
> of the IETF.
> >
> >        Title           : Optimizing BFD Authentication
> >        Authors         : Mahesh Jethanandani
> >                          Ashesh Mishra
> >                          Ankur Saxena
> >                          Manav Bhatia
> >       Filename        : draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.txt
> >       Pages           : 7
> >       Date            : 2018-10-11
> >
> > Abstract:
> >   This document describes an optimization to BFD Authentication as
> >   described in Section 6.7 of BFD RFC5880.
> >
> >
> >
> > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> >
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication=
/
> >
> > There are also htmlized versions available at:
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06
> >
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentic=
ation-06
> >
> > A diff from the previous version is available at:
> >
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authenticat=
ion-06
> >
> >
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> >
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> >
>
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com
>
>
>
>

--0000000000003c1031057821cd95
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Mahesh, Authors, et. al,<div=
>thank you for your thoughtful consideration of the discussion in Montreal.=
 I&#39;ve checked the changes in the new version and I think that the agree=
ment we&#39;ve reached was not merely recommend that the authenticated BFD =
Control packets be sent as series of at least Detect Multiplier packets but=
 require, i.e., make it mandatory for both periodic and state change modes.=
 Here&#39;s the quote from the minutes:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jeff H=
aas: one possibility is to send detect multiplier number of consecutive aut=
henticated packets, then the session will go down if authentication packets=
 fail validation.</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Greg Mirsky: does that require us=
e of P/F procedure?</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jeff Haas: P/F is not needed, w=
e send consecutive authenticated packets</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mahesh Jet=
hanandani: we can make that change.</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Reshad Rahman: =
is there a need to do the same for state change?</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ma=
hesh Jethanandani: every state change packet has to be authenticated.</div>=
</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jeff Haas: for pedantic reasons, when making =
the state change we should do the same. On P/F sequence we should do=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 this for the new multiplier if it=E2=80=99s longer. We=E2=80=99ll ta=
ke this back to the mailing list.</div></div><div>Thus I suggest to conside=
r changes along the following:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0To =
detect a Man In the Middle (MITM)</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0attack, it is also=
 proposed that a non-state change frame be</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0authentic=
ated occasionally.=C2=A0 The interval of this non-state change</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0frame can be configured depending on the detect multiplier and=
 the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0capability of the system.=C2=A0 As an example, =
this could be equal to the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0detect multiplier number =
of packets.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 To detect a Man=
 In the Middle (MITM)</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0attack, it is also proposed th=
at a non-state change set of authenticated frames be</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0sent occasionally.=C2=A0 The number of consecutively transmitted authent=
icated BFD control packets in the set</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST be not le=
sser than the value of the Detect Multiplier and the interval between such =
non-state change</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0set of frames can be configured dep=
ending on the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0capability of the system.=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
br></div></div><div>If acceptable, similar change should be made to the fol=
lowing text:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Authenticating a small subset of t=
hese frames, for example, a detect</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0multiplier number=
 of packets per configured period, significantly</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0red=
uces the computational demand for the system while maintaining</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0security of the session across the configured authentication p=
eriods.</div></div><div>to change from recommendation &quot;for example&quo=
t; to stronger normative language.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><=
div>Greg</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 4:31 PM Mahesh Jethana=
ndani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com">mjethanandani@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">This version of th=
e draft addresses comments received at IETF 102 as part of LC. At this poin=
t, the authors believe that this document, along with draft-ietf-bfd-secure=
-sequence-numbers and draft-ietf-bfd-stability are ready for IESG.<br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
<br>
&gt; On Oct 11, 2018, at 4:25 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir=
ectories.<br>
&gt; This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection WG=
 of the IETF.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0: Optimizing BFD Authentication<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: =
Mahesh Jethanandani<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ashesh Mishra<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ankur Saxena<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Manav Bhatia<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-=
ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.txt<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0: 7<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 : 2018-10-11<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes an optimization to BFD Authenticat=
ion as<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Section 6.7 of BFD RFC5880.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-=
authentication/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication/</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authe=
ntication-06" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimi=
zing-authentication-06" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bfd-optimizi=
ng-authentication-06" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf=
.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm=
ission<br>
&gt; until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http:/=
/tools.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
Mahesh Jethanandani<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mjethanandani@=
gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000003c1031057821cd95--


From nobody Mon Oct 15 04:59:50 2018
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Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-bf?= =?utf-8?Q?d-multipoint-18=3A_=28with_DISCUSS=29?=
From: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 13:59:30 +0200
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, rrahman@cisco.com, draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint@ietf.org, rtg-bfd@ietf.org, bfd-chairs@ietf.org
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To: Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
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Hi Martin,

please see below.

> Am 05.10.2018 um 10:57 schrieb Martin Vigoureux =
<martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>:
>=20
> Hello Mirja,
>=20
> time has passed since the last exchanges on that. To reinitiate the =
discussion, I come back to your original points.
>=20
>=20
> Le 2018-07-03 =C3=A0 20:31, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind a =C3=A9crit :
>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-18: Discuss
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>> Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint/
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> DISCUSS:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This mechanism has the potentially to easily overload the network as =
there is
>> no handshake and therefore also no feedback mechanism (as already =
noted by the
>> TSV-ART review of Bob - Thanks!). Regarding the base spec in RFC5880, =
this
>> mechanism can only be used under certain constrains which should be =
clearly
>> stated in this doc, which are:
>> 1) See sec 6.8.1 of RFC5880:
>> "bfd.DesiredMinTxInterval
>>       [...] The actual
>>       interval is negotiated between the two systems.  This MUST be
>>       initialized to a value of at least one second (1,000,000
>>       microseconds) according to the rules described in section =
6.8.3."
>> As there no negotiation in this spec, bfd.DesiredMinTxInterval MUST =
always be
>> at least one second. Actually RFC8085 even recommend 3 sec (see sec =
3.1.3).
>=20
> There are two aspects to this.
> First, draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint is consistent with 5880 on the =
initialization. So I think we are on the safe side.
> Second, limiting a variable to only take certain values seems to me as =
being outside the scope of a protocol spec. We are touching there =
operational considerations.

I completely disagree. That=E2=80=99s what a spec is for.=20

The point here is, that if you would want a smaller value, the network =
and system low gets higher and RFC8085 require congestion control. If no =
congested control is used or cannot be used, a lower value is not safe.

> If a user needs and wants to set a variable to a given value in a =
specific environment we can't forbid that. We can however raise his =
awareness on the potential consequences of a given choice.

You can enforce people implementing the spec correctly but you can =
specify the protocol correctly in order to make it safe to deploy it. If =
there are actual environment where a lower is safe to use that can be =
explicitly stated in the spec, however, if the talk about a part of the =
Internet (but not a data center or another separated, fully controlled =
environment) I don=E2=80=99t an exception is safe.

>=20
>> 2) See sec 7 of RFC 8085
>> "When BFD is used across multiple hops, a congestion control =
mechanism
>>    MUST be implemented, and when congestion is detected, the BFD
>>    implementation MUST reduce the amount of traffic it generates. "
>> As there is no feedback and therefore no congestion control, this =
spec can only
>> be used for one-hop scenarios and the TTL or Hop Count MUST be set to =
one.
>=20
> Rather than limiting the use cases of bfd-multipoint, I think we =
should set the same constraints than in base BFD spec.

One-hop is the constraint given in the base spec.

>=20
>> 3) Also given the traffic load multipoint BFD generates depends on =
the number
>> of active session, and there is no feedback mechanism, I recommend to =
also
>> limit the number of active session of MultipointHead type to a small =
number
>> (per link).
>=20
> x.  Operational Considerations
>=20
>   Use of BFD in multipoint networks, as specified in this document,
>   over multiple hops requires consideration of the mechanisms to react
>   to network congestion.  Requirements stated in Section 7 of the BFD
>   base specification [RFC5880] equally apply to BFD in multipoint
>   networks.
>=20
>   Furthermore, because a tail does not transmit any BFD Control =
packets
>   to the head of the BFD session, Min RX Interval cannot be used to
>   control the BFD packet transmission rate at the MultipointHead.  The
>   mechanism to control the load of BFD traffic MAY use BFD's
>   configuration interface to control BFD state variable
>   bfd.DesiredMinTxInterval. Details of the interface and the mechanism
>   itself are outside the scope of this document.
>=20
>   Also, enabling BFD in such environments should be done considering
>   the recommendations laid out in RFC 8085 [RFC8085].

In this case it is really not enough to say =E2=80=9Eplease read =
RFC8085=E2=80=9C. RFC8085 are consideration for the design of UDP based =
protocol and must be applied by the spec/protocol designer not the user.

Mirja



>=20
>=20
> I really hope that to be ok for the document to move forward.
>=20
> Thank you
> -m
>=20
>=20


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From: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.txt
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Hi Greg,

But all packets that indicate a state change are authenticated. That has =
been the original premise of the draft, with or without a Detect =
Multiplier.

For example, we say in Section 1

   This document proposes that only BFD frames that signal a state
   change in BFD be authenticated.

The only question was with a steady stream, and no state change, how =
many authenticated packets needed to be sent to thwart a MITM attack.=20

Cheers.


> On Oct 13, 2018, at 1:10 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Mahesh, Authors, et. al,
> thank you for your thoughtful consideration of the discussion in =
Montreal. I've checked the changes in the new version and I think that =
the agreement we've reached was not merely recommend that the =
authenticated BFD Control packets be sent as series of at least Detect =
Multiplier packets but require, i.e., make it mandatory for both =
periodic and state change modes. Here's the quote from the minutes:
>     Jeff Haas: one possibility is to send detect multiplier number of =
consecutive authenticated packets, then the session will go down if =
authentication packets fail validation.
>     Greg Mirsky: does that require use of P/F procedure?
>     Jeff Haas: P/F is not needed, we send consecutive authenticated =
packets
>     Mahesh Jethanandani: we can make that change.
>     Reshad Rahman: is there a need to do the same for state change?
>     Mahesh Jethanandani: every state change packet has to be =
authenticated.
>     Jeff Haas: for pedantic reasons, when making the state change we =
should do the same. On P/F sequence we should do    this for the new =
multiplier if it=E2=80=99s longer. We=E2=80=99ll take this back to the =
mailing list.
> Thus I suggest to consider changes along the following:
> OLD TEXT:
>  To detect a Man In the Middle (MITM)
>    attack, it is also proposed that a non-state change frame be
>    authenticated occasionally.  The interval of this non-state change
>    frame can be configured depending on the detect multiplier and the
>    capability of the system.  As an example, this could be equal to =
the
>    detect multiplier number of packets.
> NEW TEXT:
>   To detect a Man In the Middle (MITM)
>    attack, it is also proposed that a non-state change set of =
authenticated frames be
>    sent occasionally.  The number of consecutively transmitted =
authenticated BFD control packets in the set
>    MUST be not lesser than the value of the Detect Multiplier and the =
interval between such non-state change
>    set of frames can be configured depending on the
>    capability of the system. =20
> If acceptable, similar change should be made to the following text:
>    Authenticating a small subset of these frames, for example, a =
detect
>    multiplier number of packets per configured period, significantly
>    reduces the computational demand for the system while maintaining
>    security of the session across the configured authentication =
periods.
> to change from recommendation "for example" to stronger normative =
language.
>=20
> Regards,
> Greg
>=20
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 4:31 PM Mahesh Jethanandani =
<mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>> wrote:
> This version of the draft addresses comments received at IETF 102 as =
part of LC. At this point, the authors believe that this document, along =
with draft-ietf-bfd-secure-sequence-numbers and draft-ietf-bfd-stability =
are ready for IESG.
>=20
> Thanks.
>=20
> > On Oct 11, 2018, at 4:25 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org =
<mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
> >=20
> >=20
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection =
WG of the IETF.
> >=20
> >        Title           : Optimizing BFD Authentication
> >        Authors         : Mahesh Jethanandani
> >                          Ashesh Mishra
> >                          Ankur Saxena
> >                          Manav Bhatia
> >       Filename        : =
draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.txt
> >       Pages           : 7
> >       Date            : 2018-10-11
> >=20
> > Abstract:
> >   This document describes an optimization to BFD Authentication as
> >   described in Section 6.7 of BFD RFC5880.
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> > =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication/=
 =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication=
/>
> >=20
> > There are also htmlized versions available at:
> > =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06>
> > =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentica=
tion-06 =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentic=
ation-06>
> >=20
> > A diff from the previous version is available at:
> > =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authenticati=
on-06 =
<https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authenticat=
ion-06>
> >=20
> >=20
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org =
<http://tools.ietf.org/>.
> >=20
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ =
<ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/>
> >=20
>=20
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com




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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Greg,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But <b =
class=3D"">all</b> packets that indicate a state change are =
authenticated. That has been the original premise of the draft, with or =
without a Detect Multiplier.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For example, we say in Section =
1</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
orphans: 2; widows: 2;">   This document proposes that only BFD frames =
that signal a state
   change in BFD be authenticated.</pre><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">The only question was with a =
steady stream, and no state change, how many authenticated packets =
needed to be sent to thwart a MITM attack.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Cheers.</div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct 13, 2018, at 1:10 PM, =
Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hi Mahesh, Authors, et. al,<div =
class=3D"">thank you for your thoughtful consideration of the discussion =
in Montreal. I've checked the changes in the new version and I think =
that the agreement we've reached was not merely recommend that the =
authenticated BFD Control packets be sent as series of at least Detect =
Multiplier packets but require, i.e., make it mandatory for both =
periodic and state change modes. Here's the quote from the =
minutes:</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Jeff Haas: =
one possibility is to send detect multiplier number of consecutive =
authenticated packets, then the session will go down if authentication =
packets fail validation.</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Greg Mirsky: =
does that require use of P/F procedure?</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; Jeff Haas: P/F is not needed, we send consecutive authenticated =
packets</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Mahesh Jethanandani: we can =
make that change.</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Reshad Rahman: is =
there a need to do the same for state change?</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; Mahesh Jethanandani: every state change packet has to be =
authenticated.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
Jeff Haas: for pedantic reasons, when making the state change we should =
do the same. On P/F sequence we should do&nbsp; &nbsp; this for the new =
multiplier if it=E2=80=99s longer. We=E2=80=99ll take this back to the =
mailing list.</div></div><div class=3D"">Thus I suggest to consider =
changes along the following:</div><div class=3D"">OLD TEXT:</div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;To detect a Man In the Middle =
(MITM)</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;attack, it is also proposed =
that a non-state change frame be</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;authenticated occasionally.&nbsp; The interval of this non-state =
change</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;frame can be configured =
depending on the detect multiplier and the</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;capability of the system.&nbsp; As an example, this could be equal =
to the</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;detect multiplier number of =
packets.</div></div><div class=3D"">NEW TEXT:</div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; To detect a Man In the Middle (MITM)</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;attack, it is also proposed that a non-state =
change set of authenticated frames be</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;sent occasionally.&nbsp; The number of consecutively transmitted =
authenticated BFD control packets in the set</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;MUST be not lesser than the value of the Detect Multiplier and the =
interval between such non-state change</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;set of frames can be configured depending on the</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;capability of the system.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">If acceptable, similar change =
should be made to the following text:</div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;Authenticating a small subset of these frames, =
for example, a detect</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;multiplier =
number of packets per configured period, significantly</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;reduces the computational demand for the system =
while maintaining</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;security of the =
session across the configured authentication periods.</div></div><div =
class=3D"">to change from recommendation "for example" to stronger =
normative language.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D"">Greg</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On =
Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 4:31 PM Mahesh Jethanandani &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">This version of the =
draft addresses comments received at IETF 102 as part of LC. At this =
point, the authors believe that this document, along with =
draft-ietf-bfd-secure-sequence-numbers and draft-ietf-bfd-stability are =
ready for IESG.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Thanks.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; On Oct 11, 2018, at 4:25 PM, <a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.<br class=3D"">
&gt; This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection =
WG of the IETF.<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Title&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;: Optimizing BFD Authentication<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Authors&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;: Mahesh Jethanandani<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ashesh Mishra<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ankur Saxena<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Manav Bhatia<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Filename&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : =
draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.txt<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Pages&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;: 7<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Date&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; : 2018-10-11<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; Abstract:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;This document describes an optimization to BFD =
Authentication as<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;described in Section 6.7 of BFD RFC5880.<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br class=3D"">
&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authent=
ication/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-auth=
entication/</a><br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; There are also htmlized versions available at:<br class=3D"">
&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authenticati=
on-06" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentic=
ation-06</a><br class=3D"">
&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-au=
thentication-06" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing=
-authentication-06</a><br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; A diff from the previous version is available at:<br class=3D"">
&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-auth=
entication-06" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-a=
uthentication-06</a><br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission<br class=3D"">
&gt; until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br =
class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Mahesh Jethanandani<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_C398A2EC-9D87-4CB9-8616-ADC11A1CD136--


From nobody Mon Oct 15 11:30:56 2018
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 14:30:07 -0400
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
Cc: Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, rrahman@cisco.com, draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint@ietf.org, rtg-bfd@ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, bfd-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Mirja =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FChlewind'?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?s?= Discuss on draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-18: (with DISCUSS)
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Mirja,

You keep waving around RFC 8085 as a panacea.  Consider:

: 4.1.  Multicast Congestion Control Guidelines
: 
:    Applications using multicast SHOULD provide appropriate congestion
:    control.

Firstly, it's a SHOULD, and not a MUST.  Also, I believe we've made the
point more than once that BFD is used by an application set and it's free as
part of using BFD in multipoint mode to tune BFD.  BFD is intentionally not
self-tuning.

By analogy to the single hop unicast scenario, one doesn't expect BFD in the
face of congestion protecting the forwarding path for fast re-route
behaviors to slow down.  The point is that it *starts dropping packets* and
the BFD session drops.  Similarly, if a multipoint consumer of BFD sessions
starts having issues with forwarding, or something along the same path
(typically a multicast S,G), the expectation is that *it does something*.
This may include switching to a different path.

This is also covered in section 4.1 of 8085:

:    o  Receiver-driven congestion control, which does not require a
:       receiver to send explicit UDP control messages for congestion
:       control (e.g., [RFC3738], [RFC5775]).  Instead, the sender
:       distributes the data across multiple IP multicast groups (e.g.,
:       using a set of {S,G} channels).  Each receiver determines its own
:       level of congestion and controls its reception rate using only
:       multicast join/leave messages sent in the network control plane.
:       This method scales to arbitrary large groups of receivers.

Multicast networks will set the BFD configuration based on what their
expectations are for protection.  IETF can't blanketly tell users "you're
not allowed ot use BFD protection greater than X" nor can we arbitrarily
tell them we won't let them use a protocol intended to run at a high rate
that they can't do that.  In most cases, vendors are pushed to go for faster
detection times, not slower.

You can readily argue that BFD Multipoint shouldn't be used for generic
Internet multicast (e.g. mbone).  Fine - don't use it there.  But mbone
hasn't been the useful scenario for the deployment of multicast for the
majority of my career, nor is it the one that is the one funding the
vendors.

I strongly request that if the above text from 8085 doesn't convince you to
clear your discuss that you help arrange for a voice call to iterate over
lingering concerns sooner than later.  The chairs won't be attending IETF
103, sadly.  We'll find an agreeable time.

-- Jeff



On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 01:59:30PM +0200, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> please see below.
> 
> > Am 05.10.2018 um 10:57 schrieb Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>:
> > 
> > Hello Mirja,
> > 
> > time has passed since the last exchanges on that. To reinitiate the discussion, I come back to your original points.
> > 
> > 
> > Le 2018-07-03 à 20:31, Mirja Kühlewind a écrit :
> >> Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> >> draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-18: Discuss
> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> >> introductory paragraph, however.)
> >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint/
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> DISCUSS:
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> This mechanism has the potentially to easily overload the network as there is
> >> no handshake and therefore also no feedback mechanism (as already noted by the
> >> TSV-ART review of Bob - Thanks!). Regarding the base spec in RFC5880, this
> >> mechanism can only be used under certain constrains which should be clearly
> >> stated in this doc, which are:
> >> 1) See sec 6.8.1 of RFC5880:
> >> "bfd.DesiredMinTxInterval
> >>       [...] The actual
> >>       interval is negotiated between the two systems.  This MUST be
> >>       initialized to a value of at least one second (1,000,000
> >>       microseconds) according to the rules described in section 6.8.3."
> >> As there no negotiation in this spec, bfd.DesiredMinTxInterval MUST always be
> >> at least one second. Actually RFC8085 even recommend 3 sec (see sec 3.1.3).
> > 
> > There are two aspects to this.
> > First, draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint is consistent with 5880 on the initialization. So I think we are on the safe side.
> > Second, limiting a variable to only take certain values seems to me as being outside the scope of a protocol spec. We are touching there operational considerations.
> 
> I completely disagree. That’s what a spec is for. 
> 
> The point here is, that if you would want a smaller value, the network and system low gets higher and RFC8085 require congestion control. If no congested control is used or cannot be used, a lower value is not safe.
> 
> > If a user needs and wants to set a variable to a given value in a specific environment we can't forbid that. We can however raise his awareness on the potential consequences of a given choice.
> 
> You can enforce people implementing the spec correctly but you can specify the protocol correctly in order to make it safe to deploy it. If there are actual environment where a lower is safe to use that can be explicitly stated in the spec, however, if the talk about a part of the Internet (but not a data center or another separated, fully controlled environment) I don’t an exception is safe.
> 
> > 
> >> 2) See sec 7 of RFC 8085
> >> "When BFD is used across multiple hops, a congestion control mechanism
> >>    MUST be implemented, and when congestion is detected, the BFD
> >>    implementation MUST reduce the amount of traffic it generates. "
> >> As there is no feedback and therefore no congestion control, this spec can only
> >> be used for one-hop scenarios and the TTL or Hop Count MUST be set to one.
> > 
> > Rather than limiting the use cases of bfd-multipoint, I think we should set the same constraints than in base BFD spec.
> 
> One-hop is the constraint given in the base spec.
> 
> > 
> >> 3) Also given the traffic load multipoint BFD generates depends on the number
> >> of active session, and there is no feedback mechanism, I recommend to also
> >> limit the number of active session of MultipointHead type to a small number
> >> (per link).
> > 
> > x.  Operational Considerations
> > 
> >   Use of BFD in multipoint networks, as specified in this document,
> >   over multiple hops requires consideration of the mechanisms to react
> >   to network congestion.  Requirements stated in Section 7 of the BFD
> >   base specification [RFC5880] equally apply to BFD in multipoint
> >   networks.
> > 
> >   Furthermore, because a tail does not transmit any BFD Control packets
> >   to the head of the BFD session, Min RX Interval cannot be used to
> >   control the BFD packet transmission rate at the MultipointHead.  The
> >   mechanism to control the load of BFD traffic MAY use BFD's
> >   configuration interface to control BFD state variable
> >   bfd.DesiredMinTxInterval. Details of the interface and the mechanism
> >   itself are outside the scope of this document.
> > 
> >   Also, enabling BFD in such environments should be done considering
> >   the recommendations laid out in RFC 8085 [RFC8085].
> 
> In this case it is really not enough to say „please read RFC8085“. RFC8085 are consideration for the design of UDP based protocol and must be applied by the spec/protocol designer not the user.
> 
> Mirja
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > I really hope that to be ok for the document to move forward.
> > 
> > Thank you
> > -m
> > 
> > 


From nobody Mon Oct 15 21:25:20 2018
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 21:24:59 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmWQ1MkAh8eAm2mYEczPGL=y9HYFMvRjj-P50JFiiqOGGA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.txt
To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
Cc: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Hi Mahesh,
thank you for your quick response. The comment regarding the state change,
as I understand from the minutes, came from Jeff.
Yes, the question was about the periodic authentication in Up state. I
believe that at the meeting WG arrived at a very good solution and we've
agreed to make the appropriate changes in the document. I don't think that
the current version reflects the WG decision that in Up state authenticated
BFD control packets are transmitted periodically in sets of not less than
Detect Multiplier.

Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:26 AM Mahesh Jethanandani <
mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> But *all* packets that indicate a state change are authenticated. That
> has been the original premise of the draft, with or without a Detect
> Multiplier.
>
> For example, we say in Section 1
>
>    This document proposes that only BFD frames that signal a state
>    change in BFD be authenticated.
>
>
> The only question was with a steady stream, and no state change, how many
> authenticated packets needed to be sent to thwart a MITM attack.
>
> Cheers.
>
>
> On Oct 13, 2018, at 1:10 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Mahesh, Authors, et. al,
> thank you for your thoughtful consideration of the discussion in Montreal=
.
> I've checked the changes in the new version and I think that the agreemen=
t
> we've reached was not merely recommend that the authenticated BFD Control
> packets be sent as series of at least Detect Multiplier packets but
> require, i.e., make it mandatory for both periodic and state change modes=
.
> Here's the quote from the minutes:
>     Jeff Haas: one possibility is to send detect multiplier number of
> consecutive authenticated packets, then the session will go down if
> authentication packets fail validation.
>     Greg Mirsky: does that require use of P/F procedure?
>     Jeff Haas: P/F is not needed, we send consecutive authenticated packe=
ts
>     Mahesh Jethanandani: we can make that change.
>     Reshad Rahman: is there a need to do the same for state change?
>     Mahesh Jethanandani: every state change packet has to be authenticate=
d.
>     Jeff Haas: for pedantic reasons, when making the state change we
> should do the same. On P/F sequence we should do    this for the new
> multiplier if it=E2=80=99s longer. We=E2=80=99ll take this back to the ma=
iling list.
> Thus I suggest to consider changes along the following:
> OLD TEXT:
>  To detect a Man In the Middle (MITM)
>    attack, it is also proposed that a non-state change frame be
>    authenticated occasionally.  The interval of this non-state change
>    frame can be configured depending on the detect multiplier and the
>    capability of the system.  As an example, this could be equal to the
>    detect multiplier number of packets.
> NEW TEXT:
>   To detect a Man In the Middle (MITM)
>    attack, it is also proposed that a non-state change set of
> authenticated frames be
>    sent occasionally.  The number of consecutively transmitted
> authenticated BFD control packets in the set
>    MUST be not lesser than the value of the Detect Multiplier and the
> interval between such non-state change
>    set of frames can be configured depending on the
>    capability of the system.
> If acceptable, similar change should be made to the following text:
>    Authenticating a small subset of these frames, for example, a detect
>    multiplier number of packets per configured period, significantly
>    reduces the computational demand for the system while maintaining
>    security of the session across the configured authentication periods.
> to change from recommendation "for example" to stronger normative languag=
e.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 4:31 PM Mahesh Jethanandani <
> mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This version of the draft addresses comments received at IETF 102 as par=
t
>> of LC. At this point, the authors believe that this document, along with
>> draft-ietf-bfd-secure-sequence-numbers and draft-ietf-bfd-stability are
>> ready for IESG.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> > On Oct 11, 2018, at 4:25 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> directories.
>> > This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection WG
>> of the IETF.
>> >
>> >        Title           : Optimizing BFD Authentication
>> >        Authors         : Mahesh Jethanandani
>> >                          Ashesh Mishra
>> >                          Ankur Saxena
>> >                          Manav Bhatia
>> >       Filename        : draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.tx=
t
>> >       Pages           : 7
>> >       Date            : 2018-10-11
>> >
>> > Abstract:
>> >   This document describes an optimization to BFD Authentication as
>> >   described in Section 6.7 of BFD RFC5880.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> >
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authenticatio=
n/
>> >
>> > There are also htmlized versions available at:
>> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-0=
6
>> >
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authenti=
cation-06
>> >
>> > A diff from the previous version is available at:
>> >
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentica=
tion-06
>> >
>> >
>> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>> submission
>> > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>> >
>> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>> >
>>
>> Mahesh Jethanandani
>> mjethanandani@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com
>
>
>
>

--00000000000078fde8057850f050
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Mahesh,<div>thank you for your quick response. The comm=
ent regarding the state change, as I understand from the minutes, came from=
 Jeff.</div><div>Yes, the question was about the periodic authentication in=
 Up state. I believe that at the meeting WG arrived at a very good solution=
 and we&#39;ve agreed to make the appropriate changes in the document. I do=
n&#39;t think that the current version reflects the WG decision that in Up =
state authenticated BFD control packets are transmitted periodically=C2=A0i=
n sets of not less than Detect Multiplier.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards=
,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:26 AM Mahesh Jethanandani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:mjethanandani@gmail.com">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break=
:after-white-space">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>But <b>all</b> packets that=
 indicate a state change are authenticated. That has been the original prem=
ise of the draft, with or without a Detect Multiplier.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>For example, we say in Section 1</div><div><br></div><div><pre class=
=3D"m_4467656374141242902newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0=
px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;font-variant-ligatures:normal">   Th=
is document proposes that only BFD frames that signal a state
   change in BFD be authenticated.</pre><div><br></div></div><div>The only =
question was with a steady stream, and no state change, how many authentica=
ted packets needed to be sent to thwart a MITM attack.=C2=A0</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Cheers.</div><div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div>On Oct 13, 2018, at 1:10 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gre=
gimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
/div><br class=3D"m_4467656374141242902Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Mahesh, Authors, et. al,<div>tha=
nk you for your thoughtful consideration of the discussion in Montreal. I&#=
39;ve checked the changes in the new version and I think that the agreement=
 we&#39;ve reached was not merely recommend that the authenticated BFD Cont=
rol packets be sent as series of at least Detect Multiplier packets but req=
uire, i.e., make it mandatory for both periodic and state change modes. Her=
e&#39;s the quote from the minutes:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jeff Haas:=
 one possibility is to send detect multiplier number of consecutive authent=
icated packets, then the session will go down if authentication packets fai=
l validation.</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Greg Mirsky: does that require use of=
 P/F procedure?</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jeff Haas: P/F is not needed, we se=
nd consecutive authenticated packets</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mahesh Jethana=
ndani: we can make that change.</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Reshad Rahman: is t=
here a need to do the same for state change?</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mahesh=
 Jethanandani: every state change packet has to be authenticated.</div></di=
v><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jeff Haas: for pedantic reasons, when making the =
state change we should do the same. On P/F sequence we should do=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 this for the new multiplier if it=E2=80=99s longer. We=E2=80=99ll take =
this back to the mailing list.</div></div><div>Thus I suggest to consider c=
hanges along the following:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0To det=
ect a Man In the Middle (MITM)</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0attack, it is also pr=
oposed that a non-state change frame be</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0authenticate=
d occasionally.=C2=A0 The interval of this non-state change</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0frame can be configured depending on the detect multiplier and th=
e</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0capability of the system.=C2=A0 As an example, thi=
s could be equal to the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0detect multiplier number of =
packets.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 To detect a Man In=
 the Middle (MITM)</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0attack, it is also proposed that =
a non-state change set of authenticated frames be</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0se=
nt occasionally.=C2=A0 The number of consecutively transmitted authenticate=
d BFD control packets in the set</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST be not lesser =
than the value of the Detect Multiplier and the interval between such non-s=
tate change</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0set of frames can be configured dependin=
g on the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0capability of the system.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></=
div></div><div>If acceptable, similar change should be made to the followin=
g text:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Authenticating a small subset of these =
frames, for example, a detect</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0multiplier number of p=
ackets per configured period, significantly</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0reduces =
the computational demand for the system while maintaining</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0security of the session across the configured authentication periods.=
</div></div><div>to change from recommendation &quot;for example&quot; to s=
tronger normative language.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Gre=
g</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 4:31 PM Mahesh Jethanandani &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mjethananda=
ni@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">This ve=
rsion of the draft addresses comments received at IETF 102 as part of LC. A=
t this point, the authors believe that this document, along with draft-ietf=
-bfd-secure-sequence-numbers and draft-ietf-bfd-stability are ready for IES=
G.<br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
<br>
&gt; On Oct 11, 2018, at 4:25 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir=
ectories.<br>
&gt; This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection WG=
 of the IETF.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0: Optimizing BFD Authentication<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: =
Mahesh Jethanandani<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ashesh Mishra<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ankur Saxena<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Manav Bhatia<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-=
ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.txt<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0: 7<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 : 2018-10-11<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes an optimization to BFD Authenticat=
ion as<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Section 6.7 of BFD RFC5880.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-=
authentication/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication/</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authe=
ntication-06" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimi=
zing-authentication-06" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bfd-optimizi=
ng-authentication-06" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf=
.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm=
ission<br>
&gt; until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
Mahesh Jethanandani<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mjethanandani@=
gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br><div>
<div>Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div><br></div><br cl=
ass=3D"m_4467656374141242902Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br></div></div></blockquote></div>

--00000000000078fde8057850f050--


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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org
Subject: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
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Working Group,

This starts the Working Group Last Call for BFD for VxLAN.  This last call
ends the Friday after IETF, November 9.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/

Please comment whether you believe this document is ready to advance or not.

There is currently one IPR statement on this draft:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193/

Authors, please publicly state to the mailing list whether you know of any
additional IPR that impacts this draft.

-- Jeff & Reshad



----- Forwarded message from Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> -----

Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:47:19 -0700
From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
To: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Marc Binderberger <marc@sniff.de>
Cc: bfd-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt

Dear All,
the new version is to address comments from Marc (big thank you, Marc).
Please note that IDNits err on downref to the normative reference
to Informational RFC 7348.

Regards,
Greg


From nobody Wed Oct 17 15:24:50 2018
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Subject: The BFD WG has placed draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued"
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The BFD WG has placed draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand in state
Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Jeffrey Haas)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand/

Comment:
Adoption call ends November 9, 2018.


From nobody Wed Oct 17 15:25:09 2018
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:24:31 -0400
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org
Subject: WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand
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Working Group,

The BFD chairs have received an adoption request for 
"BFD in Demand Mode over Point-to-Point MPLS LSP"
(draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand).

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand/

The adoption call will end on the Friday after IETF 103, November 9.

Note that there is are existing IPR statements on this draft:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3301/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3104/

Please indicate to the mailing list whether you support adoption of this
draft.

-- Jeff & Reshad


From nobody Wed Oct 17 16:37:05 2018
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:36:49 -0700
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Subject: Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org
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--00000000000083d14c05787525d7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Dear All,
I don't know of any IPR related to this specification other than already
disclosed.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 3:14 PM Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

> Working Group,
>
> This starts the Working Group Last Call for BFD for VxLAN.  This last call
> ends the Friday after IETF, November 9.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
>
> Please comment whether you believe this document is ready to advance or
> not.
>
> There is currently one IPR statement on this draft:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193/
>
> Authors, please publicly state to the mailing list whether you know of any
> additional IPR that impacts this draft.
>
> -- Jeff & Reshad
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> -----
>
> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:47:19 -0700
> From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> To: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Marc Binderberger <marc@sniff.de>
> Cc: bfd-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt
>
> Dear All,
> the new version is to address comments from Marc (big thank you, Marc).
> Please note that IDNits err on downref to the normative reference
> to Informational RFC 7348.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>

--00000000000083d14c05787525d7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,<div>I don&#39;t know of any IPR related to this =
specification other than already disclosed.</div><div><br></div><div>Regard=
s,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr=
">On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 3:14 PM Jeffrey Haas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@=
pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">Working Group,<br>
<br>
This starts the Working Group Last Call for BFD for VxLAN.=C2=A0 This last =
call<br>
ends the Friday after IETF, November 9.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bf=
d-vxlan/</a><br>
<br>
Please comment whether you believe this document is ready to advance or not=
.<br>
<br>
There is currently one IPR statement on this draft:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193/" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193/</a><br>
<br>
Authors, please publicly state to the mailing list whether you know of any<=
br>
additional IPR that impacts this draft.<br>
<br>
-- Jeff &amp; Reshad<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Forwarded message from Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; -----<br>
<br>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:47:19 -0700<br>
From: Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
To: rtg-bfd WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rt=
g-bfd@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Marc Binderberger &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marc@sniff.=
de" target=3D"_blank">marc@sniff.de</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:bfd-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bfd-chairs@iet=
f.org</a><br>
Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt<br>
<br>
Dear All,<br>
the new version is to address comments from Marc (big thank you, Marc).<br>
Please note that IDNits err on downref to the normative reference<br>
to Informational RFC 7348.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Greg<br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000083d14c05787525d7--


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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 01:06:16 +0000
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From: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:57:29 -0700
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To: Reshad Rehman <rrahman@cisco.com>
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Support.

> On Oct 17, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Reshad Rahman (rrahman) =
<rrahman@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hello BFD WG,
> =20
> We have received an adoption request for =E2=80=9CBFD encapsulated in =
large packets=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haas-bfd-large-packets/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haas-bfd-large-packets/>
> =20
> The adoption call will end on Friday Nov 9th.
> =20
> Please send email to the list indicating =E2=80=9Cyes/support=E2=80=9D =
 or =E2=80=9Cno/do not support=E2=80=9D. If you do not support adoption, =
please state your reasons.
> =20
> Regards,
> Reshad & Jeff.

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com




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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Support.<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct 17, 2018, at 6:06 PM, =
Reshad Rahman (rrahman) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rrahman@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">rrahman@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Hello BFD WG,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">We =
have received an adoption request for =E2=80=9CBFD encapsulated in large =
packets=E2=80=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p=
 class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haas-bfd-large-packets/" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haas-bfd-large-packets/<=
/a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p=
 class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">The =
adoption call will end on Friday Nov 9<sup class=3D"">th</sup>.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">Please send email to the list indicating =E2=80=9Cyes/support=E2=
=80=9D &nbsp;or =E2=80=9Cno/do not support=E2=80=9D. If you do not =
support adoption, please state your reasons.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt;" class=3D"">Reshad &amp; =
Jeff.</span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_A6EFB550-B822-46EB-84D6-8CFF1C86CC3C--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 19:48:40 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmWhcA9HwugWJJPwDOT-n+ZKwd+06bSQA9K60jCYaoo3Pw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
Cc: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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--000000000000c8d3e9057877d36b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Yes/support

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 18:06 Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Hello BFD WG,
>
>
>
> We have received an adoption request for =E2=80=9CBFD encapsulated in lar=
ge
> packets=E2=80=9D.
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haas-bfd-large-packets/
>
>
>
> The adoption call will end on Friday Nov 9th.
>
>
>
> Please send email to the list indicating =E2=80=9Cyes/support=E2=80=9D  o=
r =E2=80=9Cno/do not
> support=E2=80=9D. If you do not support adoption, please state your reaso=
ns.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Reshad & Jeff.
>
>
>
>
>

--000000000000c8d3e9057877d36b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Yes/support=C2=A0<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">Regards,=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">Greg=C2=A0</div></div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 18:06 Reshad R=
ahman (rrahman) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rrahman@cisco.com">rrahman@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-CA" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_931386645239430085WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Hell=
o BFD WG,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">We h=
ave received an adoption request for =E2=80=9CBFD encapsulated in large pac=
kets=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><a h=
ref=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haas-bfd-large-packets/" targ=
et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haa=
s-bfd-large-packets/</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">The =
adoption call will end on Friday Nov 9<sup>th</sup>.<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Plea=
se send email to the list indicating =E2=80=9Cyes/support=E2=80=9D =C2=A0or=
 =E2=80=9Cno/do not support=E2=80=9D. If you do not support adoption, pleas=
e state your reasons.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Rega=
rds,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Resh=
ad &amp; Jeff.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<table class=3D"m_931386645239430085MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacin=
g=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"543" style=3D"width:407.25pt">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style=3D"padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm"></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--000000000000c8d3e9057877d36b--


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From: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
CC: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
References: <E052CA19-228D-4271-BF9E-7499255E7C53@cisco.com>
Cc: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com>
From: Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com>
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Support.

-- Enke

On 10/17/18 6:06 PM, Reshad Rahman (rrahman) wrote:
> Hello BFD WG,
> 
>  
> 
> We have received an adoption request for “BFD encapsulated in large packets”.
> 
>  
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haas-bfd-large-packets/
> 
>  
> 
> The adoption call will end on Friday Nov 9^th .
> 
>  
> 
> Please send email to the list indicating “yes/support”  or “no/do not support”. If you do not support adoption, please state your reasons.
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Reshad & Jeff.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 


From nobody Thu Oct 18 03:15:21 2018
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Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a_Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-bfd-?= =?UTF-8?Q?multipoint-18=3a_=28with_DISCUSS=29?=
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: rrahman@cisco.com, draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint@ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, rtg-bfd@ietf.org, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, bfd-chairs@ietf.org
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Hi Jeff,

please see below.

On 15.10.18 20:30, Jeffrey Haas wrote:
> Mirja,
>
> You keep waving around RFC 8085 as a panacea.
My discuss is actually based on what is specified in the BFD base spec 
in RFC5880. I'm only pointing you to RFC8085 because this RFC gives 
guidance how to resolve the issue. See further below.

> Consider:
>
> : 4.1.  Multicast Congestion Control Guidelines
> :
> :    Applications using multicast SHOULD provide appropriate congestion
> :    control.
>
> Firstly, it's a SHOULD, and not a MUST.  Also, I believe we've made the
> point more than once that BFD is used by an application set and it's free as
> part of using BFD in multipoint mode to tune BFD.  BFD is intentionally not
> self-tuning.
Yes, it's a SHOULD because for protocol usage guidance there is no 
absolute thing. However, BFD as a user of UDP needs to care more 
specifically about these issue. If there is also no absolute answer for 
BFD, you must at least give further guidance on what to do in which 
situation. What's the normal user behavior and what to do in that 
situation and when is it okay to do something different...?


> By analogy to the single hop unicast scenario, one doesn't expect BFD in the
> face of congestion protecting the forwarding path for fast re-route
> behaviors to slow down.
This is (more or less) inline with RFC8085 because the load is limited 
to one message per second which is a low enough that it would be 
overkill to require congestion control. This is not the case for 
multipoint BFD, as the load is basically unlimited given it scales with 
the the number of "points" and DesiredMinTxInterval can not be 
dynamically negotiated/adapted.

> The point is that it *starts dropping packets* and
> the BFD session drops.  Similarly, if a multipoint consumer of BFD sessions
> starts having issues with forwarding, or something along the same path
> (typically a multicast S,G), the expectation is that *it does something*.
Yes, but the multipoint BDF spec needs to define what this *something* 
is. If you just say do something, people won't do anything because they 
don't know what this something should be.

> This may include switching to a different path.
>
> This is also covered in section 4.1 of 8085:
>
> :    o  Receiver-driven congestion control, which does not require a
> :       receiver to send explicit UDP control messages for congestion
> :       control (e.g., [RFC3738], [RFC5775]).  Instead, the sender
> :       distributes the data across multiple IP multicast groups (e.g.,
> :       using a set of {S,G} channels).  Each receiver determines its own
> :       level of congestion and controls its reception rate using only
> :       multicast join/leave messages sent in the network control plane.
> :       This method scales to arbitrary large groups of receivers.
>
> Multicast networks will set the BFD configuration based on what their
> expectations are for protection.  IETF can't blanketly tell users "you're
> not allowed ot use BFD protection greater than X" nor can we arbitrarily
> tell them we won't let them use a protocol intended to run at a high rate
> that they can't do that.  In most cases, vendors are pushed to go for faster
> detection times, not slower.
Regarding the text you cite from RFC8085 above, this is exactly the 
problem. There is no way in the multiploint BFD set up for the tail to 
tell the head to stop sending (or leave the multicast group using the 
wording from above).

> You can readily argue that BFD Multipoint shouldn't be used for generic
> Internet multicast (e.g. mbone).  Fine - don't use it there.  But mbone
> hasn't been the useful scenario for the deployment of multicast for the
> majority of my career, nor is it the one that is the one funding the
> vendors.
If BDF is restricted to certain scenarios where there is a different way 
to make sure the tail and the network between the tail and head cannot 
be permanently overload, then this need to be explicitly stated and 
explained why that is the case in the draft (e.g. add an applicability 
section).

> I strongly request that if the above text from 8085 doesn't convince you to
> clear your discuss that you help arrange for a voice call to iterate over
> lingering concerns sooner than later.  The chairs won't be attending IETF
> 103, sadly.  We'll find an agreeable time.
Once again RFC8085 does not provide solutions; you cannot simply point 
to RFC8085 and say do this. RFC8085 is a guidelines document that helps 
you to design your UDP-based protocol in a safe way and the protocol 
design that is using UDP needs to address the recommendations and 
concerns raised in RFC8085. This is missing here and I can't help you to 
find the right technical solution; i can only point you at RFC8085 for 
further guidance. If that does not help you, I can try and find you 
someone else with transport/UDP expertise (usually I would ask one of 
the RFC8085 authors) and see if they have time to work with you. I 
certainly unfortunately don't have the time to work on a technical 
solution with you.

Mirja


> -- Jeff
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 01:59:30PM +0200, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>> Hi Martin,
>>
>> please see below.
>>
>>> Am 05.10.2018 um 10:57 schrieb Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>:
>>>
>>> Hello Mirja,
>>>
>>> time has passed since the last exchanges on that. To reinitiate the discussion, I come back to your original points.
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 2018-07-03 à 20:31, Mirja Kühlewind a écrit :
>>>> Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
>>>> draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-18: Discuss
>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>>>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint/
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> DISCUSS:
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> This mechanism has the potentially to easily overload the network as there is
>>>> no handshake and therefore also no feedback mechanism (as already noted by the
>>>> TSV-ART review of Bob - Thanks!). Regarding the base spec in RFC5880, this
>>>> mechanism can only be used under certain constrains which should be clearly
>>>> stated in this doc, which are:
>>>> 1) See sec 6.8.1 of RFC5880:
>>>> "bfd.DesiredMinTxInterval
>>>>        [...] The actual
>>>>        interval is negotiated between the two systems.  This MUST be
>>>>        initialized to a value of at least one second (1,000,000
>>>>        microseconds) according to the rules described in section 6.8.3."
>>>> As there no negotiation in this spec, bfd.DesiredMinTxInterval MUST always be
>>>> at least one second. Actually RFC8085 even recommend 3 sec (see sec 3.1.3).
>>> There are two aspects to this.
>>> First, draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint is consistent with 5880 on the initialization. So I think we are on the safe side.
>>> Second, limiting a variable to only take certain values seems to me as being outside the scope of a protocol spec. We are touching there operational considerations.
>> I completely disagree. That’s what a spec is for.
>>
>> The point here is, that if you would want a smaller value, the network and system low gets higher and RFC8085 require congestion control. If no congested control is used or cannot be used, a lower value is not safe.
>>
>>> If a user needs and wants to set a variable to a given value in a specific environment we can't forbid that. We can however raise his awareness on the potential consequences of a given choice.
>> You can enforce people implementing the spec correctly but you can specify the protocol correctly in order to make it safe to deploy it. If there are actual environment where a lower is safe to use that can be explicitly stated in the spec, however, if the talk about a part of the Internet (but not a data center or another separated, fully controlled environment) I don’t an exception is safe.
>>
>>>> 2) See sec 7 of RFC 8085
>>>> "When BFD is used across multiple hops, a congestion control mechanism
>>>>     MUST be implemented, and when congestion is detected, the BFD
>>>>     implementation MUST reduce the amount of traffic it generates. "
>>>> As there is no feedback and therefore no congestion control, this spec can only
>>>> be used for one-hop scenarios and the TTL or Hop Count MUST be set to one.
>>> Rather than limiting the use cases of bfd-multipoint, I think we should set the same constraints than in base BFD spec.
>> One-hop is the constraint given in the base spec.
>>
>>>> 3) Also given the traffic load multipoint BFD generates depends on the number
>>>> of active session, and there is no feedback mechanism, I recommend to also
>>>> limit the number of active session of MultipointHead type to a small number
>>>> (per link).
>>> x.  Operational Considerations
>>>
>>>    Use of BFD in multipoint networks, as specified in this document,
>>>    over multiple hops requires consideration of the mechanisms to react
>>>    to network congestion.  Requirements stated in Section 7 of the BFD
>>>    base specification [RFC5880] equally apply to BFD in multipoint
>>>    networks.
>>>
>>>    Furthermore, because a tail does not transmit any BFD Control packets
>>>    to the head of the BFD session, Min RX Interval cannot be used to
>>>    control the BFD packet transmission rate at the MultipointHead.  The
>>>    mechanism to control the load of BFD traffic MAY use BFD's
>>>    configuration interface to control BFD state variable
>>>    bfd.DesiredMinTxInterval. Details of the interface and the mechanism
>>>    itself are outside the scope of this document.
>>>
>>>    Also, enabling BFD in such environments should be done considering
>>>    the recommendations laid out in RFC 8085 [RFC8085].
>> In this case it is really not enough to say „please read RFC8085“. RFC8085 are consideration for the design of UDP based protocol and must be applied by the spec/protocol designer not the user.
>>
>> Mirja
>>
>>
>>
>>> I really hope that to be ok for the document to move forward.
>>>
>>> Thank you
>>> -m
>>>
>>>


From nobody Thu Oct 18 06:05:01 2018
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Subject: The BFD WG has placed draft-haas-bfd-large-packets in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued"
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The BFD WG has placed draft-haas-bfd-large-packets in state
Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Reshad Rahman)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haas-bfd-large-packets/

Comment:
Lots of interest + discussions at IETF102.


From nobody Thu Oct 18 06:05:33 2018
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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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--_000_E6712F7C09E74F5198EA6F465A2C494Dciscocom_--


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From: "Vengada Prasad Govindan (venggovi)" <venggovi@cisco.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
Thread-Topic: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 06:59:10 +0000
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Hello Chairs,
  I am unaware of any IPR other than the one already disclosed.

Thanks
Prasad


-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>=20
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 03:44
To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org
Subject: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9

Working Group,

This starts the Working Group Last Call for BFD for VxLAN.  This last call =
ends the Friday after IETF, November 9.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/

Please comment whether you believe this document is ready to advance or not=
.

There is currently one IPR statement on this draft:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193/

Authors, please publicly state to the mailing list whether you know of any =
additional IPR that impacts this draft.

-- Jeff & Reshad



----- Forwarded message from Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> -----

Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:47:19 -0700
From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
To: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Marc Binderberger <marc@sniff.de>
Cc: bfd-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt

Dear All,
the new version is to address comments from Marc (big thank you, Marc).
Please note that IDNits err on downref to the normative reference to Inform=
ational RFC 7348.

Regards,
Greg


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From: "MALLIK MUDIGONDA (mmudigon)" <mmudigon@cisco.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
Thread-Topic: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
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From: "Srihari Raghavan (srihari)" <srihari@cisco.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
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To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>
To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:36:27 +0000
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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From: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
CC: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
CC: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 22:26:05 +0000
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From: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
CC: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 22:35:46 +0000
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
CC: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Index: AQHUZn7F2obCS5tWFUCJRL2ls+mZdKUo1C+ggAHIywD//67wkIAAV7mA///Hi8A=
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 00:36:52 +0000
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References: <E052CA19-228D-4271-BF9E-7499255E7C53@cisco.com> <7332e35048d34d44a65ea70df409699c@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <90B9205E-CBD8-4779-96D1-2D15BD1F7E24@cisco.com> <e08744fc4b264fd1bf9844dd0f29557e@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <59DD4DA1-6C83-4D3D-92E7-B4271EB259E8@cisco.com>
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From: Santosh P K <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 07:48:34 +0530
Message-ID: <CACi9rdtw2FM0GZ5a8kAMhz_kzsFOY5rb5y8V0nt5hKJ8CLY_1g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
To: "Srihari Raghavan (srihari)" <srihari@cisco.com>
Cc: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, rtg-bfd@ietf.org,  "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>
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I am unaware of any IPR for this document.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 12:33 PM Srihari Raghavan (srihari) <srihari@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Read through the draft and support the same.
>
> Thanks
> Srihari
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
>     Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 03:44
>     To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org
>     Subject: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
>
>     Working Group,
>
>     This starts the Working Group Last Call for BFD for VxLAN.  This last
> call ends the Friday after IETF, November 9.
>
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
>
>     Please comment whether you believe this document is ready to advance
> or not..
>
>     There is currently one IPR statement on this draft:
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193/
>
>     Authors, please publicly state to the mailing list whether you know of
> any additional IPR that impacts this draft.
>
>     -- Jeff & Reshad
>
>
>
>     ----- Forwarded message from Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> -----
>
>     Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:47:19 -0700
>     From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>     To: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Marc Binderberger <marc@sniff.de>
>     Cc: bfd-chairs@ietf.org
>     Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt
>
>     Dear All,
>     the new version is to address comments from Marc (big thank you, Marc).
>     Please note that IDNits err on downref to the normative reference to
> Informational RFC 7348.
>
>     Regards,
>     Greg
>
>
>
>

--0000000000005e7aa30578c7dfea
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">I am unaware of any IPR for this document.=C2=A0</div><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 12:33 PM=
 Srihari Raghavan (srihari) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:srihari@cisco.com">srihar=
i@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Read thr=
ough the draft and support the same.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
Srihari<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -----Original Message-----<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Jeffrey Haas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 03:44<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bfd-vxla=
n@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.=
org</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subject: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Working Group,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This starts the Working Group Last Call for BFD for VxLAN.=C2=
=A0 This last call ends the Friday after IETF, November 9.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vx=
lan/" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Please comment whether you believe this document is ready to =
advance or not..<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 There is currently one IPR statement on this draft:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193/" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193=
/</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors, please publicly state to the mailing list whether yo=
u know of any additional IPR that impacts this draft.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- Jeff &amp; Reshad<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----- Forwarded message from Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">gregimirsky@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; -----<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:47:19 -0700<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To: rtg-bfd WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Marc Binderberger =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marc@sniff.de" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">m=
arc@sniff.de</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:bfd-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">bfd-chairs@ietf.org</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bfd-vxl=
an-03.txt<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dear All,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the new version is to address comments from Marc (big thank y=
ou, Marc).<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Please note that IDNits err on downref to the normative refer=
ence to Informational RFC 7348.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Regards,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Greg<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000005e7aa30578c7dfea--


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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:56:46 -0400
Message-ID: <CAF4+nEEuKDRBFky7ypkGAEziTs5VwbKBTpDkgV07sx0unj-q6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org
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--0000000000005b6b610578d1a00b
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I support publication of this draft. It is a useful OAM building block.

Thanks,
Donald
===============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 1424 Pro Shop Court, Davenport, FL 33896 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com


On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 6:14 PM Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

> Working Group,
>
> This starts the Working Group Last Call for BFD for VxLAN.  This last call
> ends the Friday after IETF, November 9.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
>
> Please comment whether you believe this document is ready to advance or
> not.
>
> There is currently one IPR statement on this draft:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193/
>
> Authors, please publicly state to the mailing list whether you know of any
> additional IPR that impacts this draft.
>
> -- Jeff & Reshad
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> -----
>
> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:47:19 -0700
> From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> To: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Marc Binderberger <marc@sniff.de>
> Cc: bfd-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt
>
> Dear All,
> the new version is to address comments from Marc (big thank you, Marc).
> Please note that IDNits err on downref to the normative reference
> to Informational RFC 7348.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
>

--0000000000005b6b610578d1a00b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I support publication of this draft. It is a useful OAM bu=
ilding block.<div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_si=
gnature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Thanks,<br>Donald<br>=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D<br>=C2=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =C2=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)<br>=
=C2=A01424 Pro Shop Court, Davenport, FL 33896 USA<br>=C2=A0<a href=3D"mail=
to:d3e3e3@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a></div></div><br>=
</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Oct 17,=
 2018 at 6:14 PM Jeffrey Haas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@p=
frc.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Working Grou=
p,<br>
<br>
This starts the Working Group Last Call for BFD for VxLAN.=C2=A0 This last =
call<br>
ends the Friday after IETF, November 9.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bf=
d-vxlan/</a><br>
<br>
Please comment whether you believe this document is ready to advance or not=
.<br>
<br>
There is currently one IPR statement on this draft:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193/" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193/</a><br>
<br>
Authors, please publicly state to the mailing list whether you know of any<=
br>
additional IPR that impacts this draft.<br>
<br>
-- Jeff &amp; Reshad<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Forwarded message from Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; -----<br>
<br>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:47:19 -0700<br>
From: Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
To: rtg-bfd WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rt=
g-bfd@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Marc Binderberger &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marc@sniff.=
de" target=3D"_blank">marc@sniff.de</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:bfd-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bfd-chairs@iet=
f.org</a><br>
Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt<br>
<br>
Dear All,<br>
the new version is to address comments from Marc (big thank you, Marc).<br>
Please note that IDNits err on downref to the normative reference<br>
to Informational RFC 7348.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Greg<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000005b6b610578d1a00b--


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Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 11:08:20 -0700
In-Reply-To: <2dc00a0d58db41958ad61d73d08ead17@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com>
Cc: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>, Reshad Rehman <rrahman@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
References: <E052CA19-228D-4271-BF9E-7499255E7C53@cisco.com> <7332e35048d34d44a65ea70df409699c@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <90B9205E-CBD8-4779-96D1-2D15BD1F7E24@cisco.com> <e08744fc4b264fd1bf9844dd0f29557e@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <59DD4DA1-6C83-4D3D-92E7-B4271EB259E8@cisco.com> <2dc00a0d58db41958ad61d73d08ead17@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com>
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I think it is important to understand the intent of why the large =
packets are being sent. For example, if the idea is to be able to =
transport a large size packet without dropping it in the path, then =
there might be little or no processing of the payload of the packet; =
just the fact that we received it. I can understand that if we start to =
process the payload, that that might cause delays in processing the next =
packet. Do we believe that receiving a large size packet, with little or =
no processing performed on it, will cause us to drop/not receive another =
packet?

> On Oct 21, 2018, at 5:36 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) =
<ginsberg@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Naiming -
> =20
> Thanx for the good discussion. Responses inline.
> =20
> From: Naiming Shen (naiming)=20
> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 3:36 PM
> To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com =
<mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com>>
> Cc: Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@cisco.com =
<mailto:rrahman@cisco.com>>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org <mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
> =20
> =20
> Les,
> =20
> On Oct 21, 2018, at 3:26 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) =
<ginsberg@cisco.com <mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Naiming =E2=80=93
> =20
> Inline=E2=80=A6
> =20
> From: Naiming Shen (naiming)=20
> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 3:12 PM
> To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com =
<mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com>>
> Cc: Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@cisco.com =
<mailto:rrahman@cisco.com>>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org <mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
> =20
> =20
> It probably should say =E2=80=9Cthe payload size MAY be increased to =
this value and it is
> not recommended for a BFD session to always use the large size packet =
for padding.
> How frequent the large size packet being used is application =
specific=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> [Les:] This does not address the question as to why we want to use a =
mechanism specifically designed for sub-second detection for this case.
> ??? (Note that it does not come for free. J )
> =20
> Since we already have a session between two end-points, a BFD session, =
why not utilize that
> instead of having to explicitly configurae another =E2=80=98MTU =
discovery protocol=E2=80=99 session with burden
> of configuration and management.
> =20
> [Les:] Because it comes with costs and risks and problems of its own.
> =20
> We do not know how many of the existing BFD implementations will be =
able to handle this w/o changes. Some may not be able to handle this at =
all.
> The draft already acknowledges that this may affect BFD scaling. It is =
not much of a leap to think that in order to handle BFD at scale current =
implementations have made certain assumptions =E2=80=93 one of which =
could be what is the maximum expected size of a BFD packet.
> And the user will =E2=80=93 of course =E2=80=93 have to configure this =
as a BFD option (I believe this was acknowledged in the Montreal =
presentation) =E2=80=93 so it is not as if no additional config is =
required.
> =20
> I am sure we can come up with other risks/costs with a bit more =
thought.
> =20
> Since most of the application traffic does not fill the full size of =
the pipe to reach the MTU, so
> this detection does not need to be sub-seconds, unlike normal BFD down =
we have to switch
> the traffic immediately. MTU change can be detected by variing the BFD =
size say once
> every minute (just like the BFD authentication proposal, once a while =
is sort of ok). Not knowing
> the path MTU has changed for days is bad, but got notified in 2 =
minutes is good:-)
> =20
> =20
> for the variety of encaps, the internal application probably can =
deduced from a
> BFD one into their own as long as we have a number for path MTU.
> =20
> [Les:] If =E2=80=9Cyour=E2=80=9D MTU requirements are smaller than =
=E2=80=9Cmine=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 would you want the BFD session to go =
down even though you could continue to use the link successfully?
> =20
> No, I think this document can also specify that, the BFD should not go =
=E2=80=9CDOWN=E2=80=9D if MTU has reduced, it should
> only to be used as a =E2=80=98discovery=E2=80=99 mechanism ontop of =
the BFD itself. Say I=E2=80=99m sending large packets every 5 minutes
> for 10 packets, this can be on top of the existing BFD schedule. It =
smaller packets still comes back to keep the
> session alive. The big packets will give us the =E2=80=9Cindication=E2=80=
=9D of extra data we have learned,
> =20
> [Les:] So, this has some implications:
> =20
> We have both a transmit interval and a multiplier for a BFD session =
because we allow that some BFD packets may be dropped for reasons which =
do not represent a true loss of connectivity. Therefore up to N-1 =
consecutive packets may be dropped w/o triggering a session state =
change. If large BFD packets are =E2=80=9Coccasionally=E2=80=9D inserted =
this means there are intervals during which N-2 packets drops (not =
counting the BFD large packet) would be sufficient to trigger a BFD =
session state change. Further, if the processing of the large BFD =
packets makes it more likely that subsequent BFD packets will be dropped =
(e.g., because the processing of the large BFD packet simply takes =
longer) then it is possible that a BFD session state change might be =
triggered simply as a side effect of the insertion of the large packet =
into the data stream.
> =20
> You also are now defining a =E2=80=9Cchild session=E2=80=9D which is =
embedded within the parent session. BFD large packets are then not meant =
to influence the parent BFD session state and therefore have to be =
processed separately. This =E2=80=93 in many ways =E2=80=93 is =
equivalent to defining =E2=80=9Canother protocol=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99ll =
grant it might be a bit simpler as it can inherit some things from the =
parent session =E2=80=93 but it certainly is no longer simply a =
transparent part of existing BFD session operation.=20
> =20
> And you still have not fully addressed the differing client MTU =
requirement =E2=80=93 unless you are proposing that BFD report to its =
clients what set of MTUs are being =E2=80=9Ctested=E2=80=9D and which =
ones have failed and which have not.
> =20
> It is conceivable that all of this could be addressed in some way, but =
it gives me pause as to whether this is the best solution.
> =20
>    Les
> =20
> =20
> =20
> thanks.
> - Naiming
> =20
> =20
>    Les
> =20
> thanks.
> - Naiming
> =20
> On Oct 20, 2018, at 5:14 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) =
<ginsberg@cisco.com <mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com>> wrote:
> =20
> I have some concerns.
> =20
> It has been stated that there is a need for sub-second detection of =
this condition =E2=80=93 but I really question that requirement.
> What I would expect is that MTU changes only occur as a result of some =
maintenance operation (configuration change, link addition/bringup, =
insertion of a new box in the physical path etc.). The idea of using a =
mechanism which is specifically tailored for sub-second detection to =
monitor something that is only going to change occasionally seems =
inappropriate. It makes me think that other mechanisms (some form of =
OAM, enhancements to routing protocols to do what IS-IS already does J) =
could be more appropriate and would still meet the operational =
requirements.
> =20
> I have listened to the Montreal recording =E2=80=93 and I know there =
was discussion related to these issues (not sending padded packets all =
the time, use of BFD echo, etc.) =E2=80=93 but I would be interested in =
more discussion of the need for sub-second detection.
> =20
> Also, given that a path might be used with a variety of =
encapsulations, how do you see such a mechanism being used when multiple =
BFD clients share the same BFD session and their MTU constraints are =
different?
> =20
> Thanx.
> =20
>    Les
> =20
> =20
> From: Rtg-bfd <rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Reshad Rahman (rrahman)
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 6:06 PM
> To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org <mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
> Subject: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
> =20
> Hello BFD WG,
> =20
> We have received an adoption request for =E2=80=9CBFD encapsulated in =
large packets=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haas-bfd-large-packets/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haas-bfd-large-packets/>
> =20
> The adoption call will end on Friday Nov 9th.
> =20
> Please send email to the list indicating =E2=80=9Cyes/support=E2=80=9D =
 or =E2=80=9Cno/do not support=E2=80=9D. If you do not support adoption, =
please state your reasons.
> =20
> Regards,
> Reshad & Jeff.

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com




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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
think it is important to understand the intent of why the large packets =
are being sent. For example, if the idea is to be able to transport a =
large size packet without dropping it in the path, then there might be =
little or no processing of the payload of the packet; just the fact that =
we received it. I can understand that if we start to process the =
payload, that that might cause delays in processing the next packet. Do =
we believe that receiving a large size packet, with little or no =
processing performed on it, will cause us to drop/not receive another =
packet?<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct 21, 2018, at 5:36 PM, Les Ginsberg =
(ginsberg) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">ginsberg@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Naiming -<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Thanx for the good =
discussion. Responses inline.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:=
 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Naiming Shen (naiming)<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Sunday, October 21, 2018 =
3:36 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ginsberg@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Reshad Rahman (rrahman) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rrahman@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rrahman@cisco.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: BFD WG adoption for =
draft-haas-bfd-large-packets<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">Les,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">On Oct 21, =
2018, at 3:26 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ginsberg@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Naiming =E2=80=93</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Inline=E2=80=A6</span><o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, =
225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Naiming Shen =
(naiming)<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Sunday, October 21, 2018 =
3:12 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ginsberg@cisco.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Reshad Rahman (rrahman) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rrahman@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">rrahman@cisco.com</span></a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: BFD WG adoption for =
draft-haas-bfd-large-packets</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">It probably should say =E2=80=9Cthe =
payload size MAY be increased to this value and it is<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">not recommended for a =
BFD session to always use the large size packet for padding.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">How frequent the large =
size packet being used is application specific=E2=80=9D.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">[Les:] This does not address the question as to why we want =
to use a mechanism specifically designed for sub-second detection for =
this case.</span></i></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">??? (Note that =
it does not come for free.<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i></b><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">J</span></i></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></b></span><b class=3D""><i=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">)</span></i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">Since we already have a session between two =
end-points, a BFD session, why not utilize that<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">instead of having to explicitly configurae another =
=E2=80=98MTU discovery protocol=E2=80=99 session with burden<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">of configuration and management.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Les:] Because it comes with costs and =
risks and problems of its own.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">We do not know how many =
of the existing BFD implementations will be able to handle this w/o =
changes. Some may not be able to handle this at all.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">The draft already acknowledges that this may affect BFD =
scaling. It is not much of a leap to think that in order to handle BFD =
at scale current implementations have made certain assumptions =E2=80=93 =
one of which could be what is the maximum expected size of a BFD =
packet.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">And the user will =E2=80=93 of course =E2=80=
=93 have to configure this as a BFD option (I believe this was =
acknowledged in the Montreal presentation) =E2=80=93 so it is not as if =
no additional config is required.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I am sure we can come =
up with other risks/costs with a bit more thought.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Since most of the =
application traffic does not fill the full size of the pipe to reach the =
MTU, so<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">this detection does not =
need to be sub-seconds, unlike normal BFD down we have to switch<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">the traffic immediately. MTU change can be detected =
by variing the BFD size say once<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">every =
minute (just like the BFD authentication proposal, once a while is sort =
of ok). Not knowing<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">the path MTU has changed =
for days is bad, but got notified in 2 minutes is good:-)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D"">for the variety of encaps, the internal application probably =
can deduced from a<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D"">BFD one into their own as long as we have a number for path =
MTU.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">[Les:] If =E2=80=9Cyour=E2=80=9D MTU requirements are smaller =
than =E2=80=9Cmine=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 would you want the BFD session to =
go down even though you could continue to use the link =
successfully?</span></i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">No, I think this document can also specify that, the =
BFD should not go =E2=80=9CDOWN=E2=80=9D if MTU has reduced, it =
should<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">only to be used as a =
=E2=80=98discovery=E2=80=99 mechanism ontop of the BFD itself. Say I=E2=80=
=99m sending large packets every 5 minutes<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">for 10 packets, this can be on top of the existing =
BFD schedule. It smaller packets still comes back to keep the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">session alive. The big packets will give us the =
=E2=80=9Cindication=E2=80=9D of extra data we have learned,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Les:] So, this has some implications:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">We have both a transmit =
interval and a multiplier for a BFD session because we allow that some =
BFD packets may be dropped for reasons which do not represent a true =
loss of connectivity. Therefore up to N-1 consecutive packets may be =
dropped w/o triggering a session state change. If large BFD packets are =
=E2=80=9Coccasionally=E2=80=9D inserted this means there are intervals =
during which N-2 packets drops (not counting the BFD large packet) would =
be sufficient to trigger a BFD session state change. Further, if the =
processing of the large BFD packets makes it more likely that subsequent =
BFD packets will be dropped (e.g., because the processing of the large =
BFD packet simply takes longer) then it is possible that a BFD session =
state change might be triggered simply as a side effect of the insertion =
of the large packet into the data stream.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">You also are now =
defining a =E2=80=9Cchild session=E2=80=9D which is embedded within the =
parent session. BFD large packets are then not meant to influence the =
parent BFD session state and therefore have to be processed separately. =
This =E2=80=93 in many ways =E2=80=93 is equivalent to defining =
=E2=80=9Canother protocol=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99ll grant it might be a bit =
simpler as it can inherit some things from the parent session =E2=80=93 =
but it certainly is no longer simply a transparent part of existing BFD =
session operation.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">And you still have not =
fully addressed the differing client MTU requirement =E2=80=93 unless =
you are proposing that BFD report to its clients what set of MTUs are =
being =E2=80=9Ctested=E2=80=9D and which ones have failed and which have =
not.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">It is conceivable that =
all of this could be addressed in some way, but it gives me pause as to =
whether this is the best solution.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">thanks.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">- Naiming<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in =
4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les</span></i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">thanks.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">- Naiming<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D"">On Oct 20, 2018, at 5:14 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ginsberg@cisco.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I have some concerns.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">It has been stated that =
there is a need for sub-second detection of this condition =E2=80=93 but =
I really question that requirement.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">What I would expect is that MTU changes only occur as a =
result of some maintenance operation (configuration change, link =
addition/bringup, insertion of a new box in the physical path etc.). The =
idea of using a mechanism which is specifically tailored for sub-second =
detection to monitor something that is only going to change occasionally =
seems inappropriate. It makes me think that other mechanisms (some form =
of OAM, enhancements to routing protocols to do what IS-IS already =
does<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D"">J</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">) could be =
more appropriate and would still meet the operational =
requirements.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">I have listened to the Montreal recording =E2=80=93 and I =
know there was discussion related to these issues (not sending padded =
packets all the time, use of BFD echo, etc.) =E2=80=93 but I would be =
interested in more discussion of the need for sub-second =
detection.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Also, given that a path might be used with a variety of =
encapsulations, how do you see such a mechanism being used when multiple =
BFD clients share the same BFD session and their MTU constraints are =
different?</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Thanx.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: none none =
none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: =
0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, =
225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Rtg-bfd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Reshad Rahman =
(rrahman)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, October 17, 2018 =
6:06 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(149, =
79, 114);" class=3D"">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>BFD WG adoption for =
draft-haas-bfd-large-packets</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hello BFD =
WG,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">We have received an adoption request for =E2=80=9C=
BFD encapsulated in large packets=E2=80=9D.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haas-bfd-large-packets/" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haas-bfd-large-packets/<=
/span></a></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The adoption call =
will end on Friday Nov 9<sup class=3D"">th</sup>.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Please send email to =
the list indicating =E2=80=9Cyes/support=E2=80=9D &nbsp;or =E2=80=9Cno/do =
not support=E2=80=9D. If you do not support adoption, please state your =
reasons.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Regards,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Reshad &amp; =
Jeff.</span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><=
/div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
CC: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Index: AQHUZn7F2obCS5tWFUCJRL2ls+mZdKUo1C+ggAHIywD//67wkIAAV7mA///Hi8CAAYATAIAAGSKA
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 19:38:18 +0000
Message-ID: <2868B780-B496-48A2-A45A-8C8BFB74CBF5@cisco.com>
References: <E052CA19-228D-4271-BF9E-7499255E7C53@cisco.com> <7332e35048d34d44a65ea70df409699c@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <90B9205E-CBD8-4779-96D1-2D15BD1F7E24@cisco.com> <e08744fc4b264fd1bf9844dd0f29557e@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <59DD4DA1-6C83-4D3D-92E7-B4271EB259E8@cisco.com> <2dc00a0d58db41958ad61d73d08ead17@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <8ED9D25B-C21A-4A77-95CB-237F1142AFB4@gmail.com>
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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
CC: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Index: AQHUZn7F2obCS5tWFUCJRL2ls+mZdKUo1C+ggAHIywD//67wkIAAV7mA///Hi8CAAVy4gA==
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 20:01:48 +0000
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
CC: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 20:40:49 +0000
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--BOUNDARY_5BCE3C4B028807F6003909C3_0_128282_msllnjpmsgsv06--



From nobody Tue Oct 23 07:46:50 2018
Return-Path: <ginsberg@cisco.com>
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Albert Fu <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Index: AQHUaktg2obCS5tWFUCJRL2ls+mZdKUs55RQ
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:44:52 +0000
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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
CC: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
CC: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Index: AQHUZn7F2obCS5tWFUCJRL2ls+mZdKUo1C+ggAHIywD//67wkIAAV7mA///Hi8CAAVy4gP//9zrQACiGgYAAAfs70A==
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:57:17 +0000
Message-ID: <991c0aa967f048e485665f97284d0d51@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com>
References: <E052CA19-228D-4271-BF9E-7499255E7C53@cisco.com> <7332e35048d34d44a65ea70df409699c@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <90B9205E-CBD8-4779-96D1-2D15BD1F7E24@cisco.com> <e08744fc4b264fd1bf9844dd0f29557e@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <59DD4DA1-6C83-4D3D-92E7-B4271EB259E8@cisco.com> <2dc00a0d58db41958ad61d73d08ead17@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <394BC803-3597-4F8F-8670-12F9EAD8A7B4@cisco.com> <cc53fee877024f9f9b23fa296f787002@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <8CDE8629-E75E-4A3A-9A93-F1891C9863A1@cisco.com>
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Albert Fu <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Index: AQHUaudK2obCS5tWFUCJRL2ls+mZdKUtBbeA
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:30:52 +0000
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 09:53:14 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmWtEbS=VmHVZY-TXh-WKX2j2h=i5yW8_qsgC=10bkZyKg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
Cc: afu14@bloomberg.net, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>,  "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
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--0000000000005077090578e83556
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Dear All,
I agree and subscribe to the proposal to discuss the problem and the
possible solution based on BFD protocol. And adoption of this document, in
my view, is a logical step. I may point out that RFC 6423 described the use
of the existing BFD session providing connectivity verification over p2p
bidirectional MPLS-TP LSP or PW (note that BFD, in fact, provides
continuity check, not checking connectivity in transport network sense).

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 9:31 AM Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Albert, Les,
>
>
>
> I tend to agree with Les that BFD doesn=E2=80=99t seem like the right pro=
tocol for
> this. Note that if you use OSPF as your IGP and flap the interface when t=
he
> MTU changes, you=E2=80=99ll detect MTU mismatches immediately due to OSPF=
=E2=80=99s DB
> exchange MTU negotiation. Granted, control plane detection won=E2=80=99t =
detect
> data plane bugs resulting in MTU fluctuations but I don=E2=80=99t see thi=
s as a
> frequent event.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Acee
>
>
>
> *From: *Rtg-bfd <rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Albert Fu
> (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK)" <afu14@bloomberg.net>
> *Reply-To: *Albert Fu <afu14@bloomberg.net>
> *Date: *Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 11:44 AM
> *To: *"rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <
> ginsberg@cisco.com>
> *Subject: *RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
>
>
>
> Hi Les,
>
>
>
> Given that it takes relative lengthy time to troubleshoot the MTU issue,
> and the associated impact on customer traffic, it is important to have a
> reliable and fast mechanism to detect the issue.
>
>
>
> I believe BFD, especially for single hop control-plane independent
> situation (btw, this covers majority of our BFD use case), is indeed an
> ideal and reliable solution for this purpose. It is also closely tied wit=
h
> the routing protocols, and enable traffic to be diverted very quickly.
>
>
>
> The choice of BFD timer is also one of the design tradeoffs - low BFD
> detection timer will cause more network churns. We do not need extremely
> aggressive BFD timer to achieve fast convergence. For example, with
> protection, we can achieve end to end sub-second convergence by using
> relatively high BFD interval of 150ms.
>
>
>
> In the case where the path will be used for a variety of encapsulations
> (e.g. Pure IP and L3VPN traffic), we would set the BFD padding to cater f=
or
> the largest possible payload. So, in our case, our link needs to carry a
> mix of pure IP (1500 max payload) and MPLS traffic (1500 + 3 headers), we
> would set the padding so that the total padded BFD packet size is 1512
> bytes.
>
>
>
> As you rightly pointed out, ISIS routing protocol does support hello
> padding, but since this is a control plane process, we can not use
> aggressive timer. The lowest hello interval the can be configured is 1s, =
so
> with default multiplier of 3, the best we can achieve is 3s detection tim=
e.
>
>
>
> What we would like is a simple mechanism to validate that a link can
> indeed carry the expected max payload size before we put it into
> production. If an issue occurs where this is no longer the case (e.g. due
> to outages or re-routing within the Telco circuit), we would like a
> reliable mechanism to detect this, and also divert traffic around the lin=
k
> quickly. I feel BFD is a good method for this purpose.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Albert
>
>
>
> From: ginsberg@cisco.com At: 10/23/18 10:45:02
>
> To: Albert Fu (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK ) <afu14@bloomberg.net>,
> rtg-bfd@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
>
> Albert =E2=80=93
>
>
>
> Please understand that I fully agree with the importance of being able to
> detect/report MTU issues. In my own experience this can be a difficult
> problem to diagnose. You do not have to convince me that some improvement
> in detection/reporting is needed. The question really is whether using BF=
D
> is the best option.
>
>
>
> Could you respond to my original questions =E2=80=93 particularly why sub=
-second
> detection of this issue is a requirement?
>
>
>
> For your convenience:
>
>
>
> *<snip>*
>
> *It has been stated that there is a need for sub-second detection of this
> condition =E2=80=93 but I really question that requirement. *
>
> *What I would expect is that MTU changes only occur as a result of some
> maintenance operation (configuration change, link addition/bringup,
> insertion of a new box in the physical path etc.). The idea of using a
> mechanism which is specifically tailored for sub-second detection to
> monitor something that is only going to change occasionally seems
> inappropriate. It makes me think that other mechanisms (some form of OAM,
> enhancements to routing protocols to do what IS-IS already does **J)
> could be more appropriate and would still meet the operational
> requirements.*
>
>
>
> *I have listened to the Montreal recording =E2=80=93 and I know there was
> discussion related to these issues (not sending padded packets all the
> time, use of BFD echo, etc.) =E2=80=93 but I would be interested in more =
discussion
> of the need for sub-second detection.*
>
>
>
> *Also, given that a path might be used with a variety of encapsulations,
> how do you see such a mechanism being used when multiple BFD clients shar=
e
> the same BFD session and their MTU constraints are different?*
>
> *<end snip>*
>
>
>
> Thanx.
>
>
>
>    Les
>
>
>
>
>
>

--0000000000005077090578e83556
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,<div>I agree and subscribe to the proposal to dis=
cuss the problem and the possible solution based on BFD protocol. And adopt=
ion of this document, in my view, is a logical step. I may point out that R=
FC 6423 described the use of the existing BFD session providing connectivit=
y verification over p2p bidirectional MPLS-TP LSP or PW (note that BFD, in =
fact, provides continuity check, not checking connectivity in transport net=
work sense).</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 9:31 =
AM Acee Lindem (acee) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com">acee@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-3918449914851075119WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hi Albert, Les, <u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I tend to agree wit=
h Les that BFD doesn=E2=80=99t seem like the right protocol for this. Note =
that if you use OSPF as your IGP and flap the interface when the MTU change=
s, you=E2=80=99ll detect MTU mismatches immediately
 due to OSPF=E2=80=99s DB exchange MTU negotiation. Granted, control plane =
detection won=E2=80=99t detect data plane bugs resulting in MTU fluctuation=
s but I don=E2=80=99t see this as a frequent event.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Thanks,<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Acee<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Rtg-bfd &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf=
.org</a>&gt; on behalf of &quot;Albert Fu (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK)&quot; &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:afu14@bloomberg.net" target=3D"_blank">afu14@bloomberg.net=
</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>Albert Fu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afu14@bloomberg.net" targe=
t=3D"_blank">afu14@bloomberg.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 11:44 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-=
bfd@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ginsberg@cisco.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Hi Les,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Given that it takes relative le=
ngthy time to troubleshoot the MTU issue, and the associated impact on cust=
omer traffic, it is important to have a reliable
 and fast mechanism to detect the issue. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I believe BFD, especially for s=
ingle hop control-plane independent situation (btw, this covers majority of=
 our BFD use case), is indeed an ideal and reliable
 solution for this purpose. It is also closely tied with the routing protoc=
ols, and enable traffic to be diverted very quickly.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">The choice of BFD timer is also=
 one of the design tradeoffs - low BFD detection timer will cause more netw=
ork churns. We do not need extremely aggressive
 BFD timer to achieve fast convergence. For example, with protection, we ca=
n achieve end to end sub-second convergence by using relatively high BFD in=
terval of 150ms.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">In the case where the path will=
 be used for a variety of encapsulations (e.g. Pure IP and L3VPN traffic), =
we would set the BFD padding to cater for the largest
 possible payload. So, in our case, our link needs to carry a mix of pure I=
P (1500 max payload) and MPLS traffic (1500 + 3 headers), we would set the =
padding so that the total padded BFD packet size is 1512 bytes.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">As you rightly pointed out, ISI=
S routing protocol does support hello padding, but since this is a control =
plane process, we can not use aggressive timer.
 The lowest hello interval the can be configured is 1s, so with default mul=
tiplier of 3, the best we can achieve is 3s detection time.<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">What we would like is a simple =
mechanism to validate that a link can indeed carry the expected max payload=
 size before we put it into production. If an issue
 occurs where this is no longer the case (e.g. due to outages or re-routing=
 within the Telco circuit), we would like a reliable mechanism to detect th=
is, and also divert traffic around the link quickly. I feel BFD is a good m=
ethod for this purpose.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Albert
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">From: <a href=3D"mailto:ginsber=
g@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ginsberg@cisco.com</a> At: 10/23/18 10:45:02=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">To:
<a href=3D"mailto:afu14@bloomberg.net" target=3D"_blank">Albert Fu (BLOOMBE=
RG/ 120 PARK ) </a>, <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white">
<span class=3D"m_-3918449914851075119bbscopedstyle4520935399377124"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:#1f497d">Albert =E2=80=93</span></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Please understand that I fully agree with the=
 importance of being able to detect/report MTU issues. In my own experience=
 this can be a difficult problem to diagnose. You do not have to convince m=
e that some improvement in detection/reporting
 is needed. The question really is whether using BFD is the best option.</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-seri=
f;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Could you respond to my original questions =
=E2=80=93 particularly why sub-second detection of this issue is a requirem=
ent?</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">For your convenience:</span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;background:white">
<b><i><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">&lt;snip&gt;</span></i></b><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;background:white">
<b><i><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">It has been stated that there is a need=
 for sub-second detection of this condition =E2=80=93 but I really question=
 that requirement.
</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot=
;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;background:white">
<b><i><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">What I would expect is that MTU changes=
 only occur as a result of some maintenance operation (configuration change=
, link addition/bringup, insertion of a new box in the physical path etc.).=
 The idea of using a mechanism which
 is specifically tailored for sub-second detection to monitor something tha=
t is only going to change occasionally seems inappropriate. It makes me thi=
nk that other mechanisms (some form of OAM, enhancements to routing protoco=
ls to do what IS-IS already does
</span></i></b><b><i><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d">J</sp=
an><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">) could be more appropriate and would stil=
l meet the operational requirements.</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;background:white">
<b><i><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></i></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;background:white">
<b><i><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">I have listened to the Montreal recordi=
ng =E2=80=93 and I know there was discussion related to these issues (not s=
ending padded packets all the time, use of BFD echo, etc.) =E2=80=93 but I =
would be interested in more discussion of the need
 for sub-second detection.</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;background:white">
<b><i><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></i></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;background:white">
<b><i><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Also, given that a path might be used w=
ith a variety of encapsulations, how do you see such a mechanism being used=
 when multiple BFD clients share the same BFD session and their MTU constra=
ints are different?</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;background:white">
<b><i><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">&lt;end snip&gt;</span></i></b><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:blac=
k"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;background:white">
<b><i><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></i></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Thanx.</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0 Les</span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--0000000000005077090578e83556--


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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Albert Fu <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Index: AQHUavKD2obCS5tWFUCJRL2ls+mZdA==
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:04:51 +0000
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From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, Albert Fu <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Index: AQHUavKD2obCS5tWFUCJRL2ls+mZdKUtJtSA
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:29:42 +0000
Message-ID: <59BFB826-8BCB-4C27-A0FB-52E65752C576@cisco.com>
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Albert Fu <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:51:51 +0000
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Albert Fu <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Index: AQHUau/W2obCS5tWFUCJRL2ls+mZdKUtDo2A
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:02:45 +0000
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From: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
CC: Albert Fu <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:04:23 +0000
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Albert Fu <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:52:50 +0000
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--BOUNDARY_5BD086340293052A003905A4_0_55874_msllnjpmsgsv06--


From nobody Thu Oct 25 08:00:40 2018
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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 10:59:59 -0400
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
Cc: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Message-ID: <20181025145958.GA12336@pfrc.org>
References: <E052CA19-228D-4271-BF9E-7499255E7C53@cisco.com> <7332e35048d34d44a65ea70df409699c@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <90B9205E-CBD8-4779-96D1-2D15BD1F7E24@cisco.com> <e08744fc4b264fd1bf9844dd0f29557e@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <59DD4DA1-6C83-4D3D-92E7-B4271EB259E8@cisco.com> <2dc00a0d58db41958ad61d73d08ead17@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <8ED9D25B-C21A-4A77-95CB-237F1142AFB4@gmail.com> <2868B780-B496-48A2-A45A-8C8BFB74CBF5@cisco.com>
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Naiming,

A specific comment on the crypto overhead:

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 07:38:18PM +0000, Naiming Shen (naiming) wrote:
> 
> Probably just bandwidth increase, and if you need encryption/decryption on the packets,
> then large packets will cost more in CPU.

The BFD protocol has you check the contents over the BFD PDU.  In the case
of an expanded IP payload, this procedure wasn't expected to be modified.
Thus, the crypto load should not increase. 

Covering some of the other comments, the pps of the BFD session need not
increase, alhtough the bps increases.  Scaling is thus a matter of how the
implementation handles scaled bps vs. pps for its BFD implementation.

-- Jeff


From nobody Thu Oct 25 08:12:31 2018
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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:11:51 -0400
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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References: <E052CA19-228D-4271-BF9E-7499255E7C53@cisco.com> <7332e35048d34d44a65ea70df409699c@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <90B9205E-CBD8-4779-96D1-2D15BD1F7E24@cisco.com> <e08744fc4b264fd1bf9844dd0f29557e@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <59DD4DA1-6C83-4D3D-92E7-B4271EB259E8@cisco.com> <2dc00a0d58db41958ad61d73d08ead17@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <394BC803-3597-4F8F-8670-12F9EAD8A7B4@cisco.com> <cc53fee877024f9f9b23fa296f787002@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <8CDE8629-E75E-4A3A-9A93-F1891C9863A1@cisco.com> <991c0aa967f048e485665f97284d0d51@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com>
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Les,

A brief note, and one worn as a chair:
Despite having strong personal preferences about mail quoting, I realize
that not everyone gets a chance to choose a client of their own choice.
But that said, your responses in this thread have been impossible to parse
out from the surrounding reply in text-plain readers.  This includes the
IETF mailarchive.

Please make adjustments to your mail reply styling so as to be more
readable.  Thanks. :-) 

And now on to non-chair commentary:


On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 02:57:17PM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
> Reshad –
> 
> I think there are two cases:
> 
> 1)A client who uses encapsulation (MPLS is an easy example) and really needs to know if an MTU sized packet plus the encapsulation can be delivered vs a client who does NOT use encap and only cares about Layer 3 sized MTU packets
> 
> 2)A client which has deliberately limited the max-sized packet they will ever send and really only cares about (MTU –X)

While I agree with your sentiment from the perspective of BFD clients, I
think the use case goes slightly bigger than this.

In the cases driving Albert's original scenario, we're not protecting BGP,
IGPs or other control plane protocols for large packets.  What's really
being protected is user payload.

So, to some extent, the use case piggy-backs on existing protection of a
client to guarantee the path has a sufficient MTU.

-- Jeff


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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
Cc: Albert Fu <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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Note that I'm choosing this message out of a mixed thread to give a reply.
So, not all of this is targeted as a response to you, Acee.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:30:52PM +0000, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote:
> Hi Albert, Les,
> 
> I tend to agree with Les that BFD doesn’t seem like the right protocol for this. Note that if you use OSPF as your IGP and flap the interface when the MTU changes, you’ll detect MTU mismatches immediately due to OSPF’s DB exchange MTU negotiation. Granted, control plane detection won’t detect data plane bugs resulting in MTU fluctuations but I don’t see this as a frequent event.

Commenting specifically on the OSPF case, when you have such misconfigured
MTUs, this manifests as weird protocol hiccups.  You don't so much detect
that there's an MTU issue - you just see OSPF failing to make progress.

Commenting on the general "well, this other protocol has MTU features",
one of the meta issues is there's no guarantee that a given protocol may be
running over a given link.  Several of the scenarios Albert writes about the
links may only be running BGP as a control plane protocol.  

Should BFD be *the* protocol for this?  Possibly not.  What else instead?  A
specific MTU probing protocol?  What does it look like?  My suspicion is
that such a thing would have a large overlap with BFD state machinery.

Which brings up the question of speed:

> From: ginsberg@cisco.com At: 10/23/18 10:45:02
> 
> Please understand that I fully agree with the importance of being able to detect/report MTU issues. In my own experience this can be a difficult problem to diagnose. You do not have to convince me that some improvement in detection/reporting is needed. The question really is whether using BFD is the best option.
> 
> Could you respond to my original questions – particularly why sub-second detection of this issue is a requirement?

Sub-second detection of MTU is not specifically the requirement - at least
in Albert's use case.  I'll let others write about their own requirements.

The interesting question arises that if BFD is where we're choosing our MTU
probing, what's the intersection between BFD timeliness requirements with
its usual shorter packets vs. MTU probing?  

Note this is particularly important for standard single-hop BFD since you
only ever have a *single* session between a given set of endpoints.

> It has been stated that there is a need for sub-second detection of this
> condition – but I really question that requirement.
>
> What I would expect is that MTU changes only occur as a result of some
> maintenance operation (configuration change, link addition/bringup,
> insertion of a new box in the physical path etc.).

Unfortunately, that's not always the case.

An example (not necessarily Albert's) of where this is problematic is in the
case of leased circuits that are partially created using some sort of
mechanism such as L2VPNs.  While it may appear to the customer that the
circuit is a leased line of a given set of properties, it may be delivered
through the provider network in a packet-switched environment.  This means
that MTU issues through the provider network, perhaps the result of a
topology change, may result in issues.  

So, this work - and then stop working.


> The idea of using a
> mechanism which is specifically tailored for sub-second detection to
> monitor something that is only going to change occasionally seems
> inappropriate.

For Albert's specific use case, I think there's some level of tolerance for
detection timing for a down link vs. bad MTU detection.  However, I don't
think we pretend to speak for all possible users of such a mechanism.  And
thus, this discussion. :-)

>  It makes me think that other mechanisms (some form of OAM,
> enhancements to routing protocols to do what IS-IS already does •) could
> be more appropriate and would still meet the operational requirements.

As noted above, I'm not sure layering this onto a full control plane
protocol as the primary mechanism is the best idea.  (You want MTU
detection?  You have to build a dummy IS-IS session?  Ugh.)

Certainly documenting existing mechanisms and when they can deal with the
use case is worth noting - perhaps even in the BFD Large draft itself.
Please feel free to suggest text.

But we have other situations where an IGP-like MTU mechanism won't help.
Two simple examples being BGP and static routes.

Also, certainly some form of lower layer mechanism could be used,if
applicable.  Given that one form of known issue is when a LAG is built from
component elements where a given element may have smaller MTU than their
siblings, it'd be nice if this was solved in something like LACP as well.
(And we note that BFD for LAG exists, and is one of the possible
applications for BFD-large as well.)



-- Jeff


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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:38:05 -0400
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>, "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Message-ID: <20181025153804.GD12336@pfrc.org>
References: <E052CA19-228D-4271-BF9E-7499255E7C53@cisco.com> <7332e35048d34d44a65ea70df409699c@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <90B9205E-CBD8-4779-96D1-2D15BD1F7E24@cisco.com> <e08744fc4b264fd1bf9844dd0f29557e@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <59DD4DA1-6C83-4D3D-92E7-B4271EB259E8@cisco.com> <2dc00a0d58db41958ad61d73d08ead17@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com>
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Les,

I *think* the following text is yours.


On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:36:52AM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
> [Les:] So, this has some implications:
> 
> We have both a transmit interval and a multiplier for a BFD session because we allow that some BFD packets may be dropped for reasons which do not represent a true loss of connectivity. Therefore up to N-1 consecutive packets may be dropped w/o triggering a session state change. If large BFD packets are “occasionally” inserted this means there are intervals during which N-2 packets drops (not counting the BFD large packet) would be sufficient to trigger a BFD session state change. Further, if the processing of the large BFD packets makes it more likely that subsequent BFD packets will be dropped (e.g., because the processing of the large BFD packet simply takes longer) then it is possible that a BFD session state change might be triggered simply as a side effect of the insertion of the large packet into the data stream.
> 
> You also are now defining a “child session” which is embedded within the parent session. BFD large packets are then not meant to influence the parent BFD session state and therefore have to be processed separately. This – in many ways – is equivalent to defining “another protocol”. I’ll grant it might be a bit simpler as it can inherit some things from the parent session – but it certainly is no longer simply a transparent part of existing BFD session operation.

The draft I had previously worked on with Xiao Min discussing probing using
BFD Echo had the concept of probes that would happen wherein the session is
not torn down.  The example carries similarly with the "send occasional".

I suggest taking a look at a different draft that might help direct this
portion of the discussion:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-stability-02



-- Jeff


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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Jeff Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
CC: Albert Fu <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
CC: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>, "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Index: AQHUZn7F2obCS5tWFUCJRL2ls+mZdKUo1C+ggAHIywD//67wkIAAV7mA///Hi8CABg0XgIAAHPRw
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 22:28:52 +0000
Message-ID: <a367a9ceec9e4f96ac41223a4fde494f@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com>
References: <E052CA19-228D-4271-BF9E-7499255E7C53@cisco.com> <7332e35048d34d44a65ea70df409699c@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <90B9205E-CBD8-4779-96D1-2D15BD1F7E24@cisco.com> <e08744fc4b264fd1bf9844dd0f29557e@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <59DD4DA1-6C83-4D3D-92E7-B4271EB259E8@cisco.com> <2dc00a0d58db41958ad61d73d08ead17@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <20181025153804.GD12336@pfrc.org>
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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 20:57:55 -0400
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>, "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 10:28:52PM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-stability-02
> 
> [Les:] I have read this draft - not sure how relevant it is.

Mostly, the idea being that it's possible to do probing in BFD without
necessarily having to commit your entire detection resources to it.

> Naiming had suggested that MTU sized packets need not be sent all the time but only occasionally - 
> and that a failure might not be used to take the BFD session down - 
> rather it would be seen as a "soft-failure" and reported separately from the BFD session state.
> My response was in that context - which it seems was also in your mind in your BFD Echo proposal.
> 
> This, however, seems not to be what Albert has in mind - as he has since commented that he really wants to have sub-second detection of MTU issues and 
> he wants traffic rerouted "immediately".

Right.  This is part of the point I'd made earlier in the thread.  Some
consumers need immediate failover and consistent MTU probe while others
might be satisfied with periodic probing.  

An interesting question for the large-packets draft is whether we want to
support a periodic probing mode, perhaps leveraging the stability draft's
ideas.  Or, should it instead only be consistent?

-- Jeff


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: "xiao.min2@zte.com.cn" <xiao.min2@zte.com.cn>
CC: Jeff Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand
Thread-Topic: WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand
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Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 04:04:18 +0000
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
CC: Jeff Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
Thread-Topic: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
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Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 04:07:23 +0000
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 08:23:51 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmXrB7=0m4xdm0LhOkvbXDezHDYZsX-OUFZiaYWxjgh_8w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Hi Carlos,
thank you for your interest in the draft and the questions. Please find my
answers in-line tagged GIM>>.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 9:04 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> Xiao,
>
> Scanning through the draft, two questions:
>
> 1. What is the underlying mechanism to check liveness such that Demand ca=
n
> be used?
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.6
>
>    Demand mode requires that some other mechanism is used to imply
>    continuing connectivity between the two systems.  The mechanism used
> GIM>> The Poll sequence may also be used as such, and
> draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-active-tail is the example of how the Poll
> sequence is used in BFD Demand mode.
>
> 2. Is this draft testing liveness of a path or a node?
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand-03#section-3
>
>    In this state BFD peers MAY remain as long as the egress LER is in Up
>    state.  The ingress LER MAY check liveness of the egress LER by
>    setting the Poll flag.  The egress LER will respond by transmitting
> GIM>> BFD does not differentiate between the path and, to certain extent,
> the node. From RFC 5880 Abstract:
>
   This document describes a protocol intended to detect faults in the
   bidirectional path between two forwarding engines, including
   interfaces, data link(s), and to the extent possible the forwarding
   engines themselves, with potentially very low latency.

>
> Thanks,
>
> =E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro
>
> On Oct 19, 2018, at 9:59 PM, xiao.min2@zte.com.cn wrote:
>
> I support WG adoption of this draft. Use of the demand mode for p2p LSP
> monitoring is feasible and required.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Xiao Min
> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*JeffreyHaas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*rtg-bfd@ietf.org <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>=
;
> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2018=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8818=E6=97=A5 06:24
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-bfd-=
mpls-demand*
> Working Group,
>
> The BFD chairs have received an adoption request for
> "BFD in Demand Mode over Point-to-Point MPLS LSP"
> (draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand).
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand/
>
> The adoption call will end on the Friday after IETF 103, November 9.
>
> Note that there is are existing IPR statements on this draft:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3301/
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3104/
>
> Please indicate to the mailing list whether you support adoption of this
> draft.
>
> -- Jeff & Reshad
>
>
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,<div>thank you=
 for your interest in the draft and the questions. Please find my answers i=
n-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg=
</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 =
at 9:04 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco=
.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">



<div>
Xiao,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Scanning through the draft, two questions:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. What is the underlying mechanism to check liveness such that Demand=
 can be used?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.6" target=3D"=
_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.6</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Demand mode requires that some other mechanism is used to=
 imply</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0continuing connectivity between the two systems.=C2=A0 Th=
e mechanism used</div>
GIM&gt;&gt; The Poll sequence may also be used as such, and draft-ietf-bfd-=
multipoint-active-tail is the example of how the Poll sequence is used in B=
FD Demand mode.<br class=3D"gmail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_735962180689=
7319988Apple-interchange-newline">
<br>
</div>
<div>2. Is this draft testing liveness of a path or a node?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand-03=
#section-3" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-bfd-=
mpls-demand-03#section-3</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0In this state BFD peers MAY remain as long as the egress =
LER is in Up</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0state.=C2=A0 The ingress LER MAY check liveness of the eg=
ress LER by</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0setting the Poll flag.=C2=A0 The egress LER will respond =
by transmitting</div>
GIM&gt;&gt; BFD does not differentiate between the path and, to certain ext=
ent, the node. From RFC 5880 Abstract:</div></div></blockquote><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0This document describes a protocol intended to detect faults in the</=
div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0bidirectional path between two forwarding engines, in=
cluding</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0interfaces, data link(s), and to the extent =
possible the forwarding</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0engines themselves, with pot=
entially very low latency.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
Thanks,</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
=E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 19, 2018, at 9:59 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:xiao.min2@zte.com.cn" t=
arget=3D"_blank">
xiao.min2@zte.com.cn</a> wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988Apple-in=
terchange-newline">
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988zconten=
tRow">
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">I support WG adoption of this=
 draft. Use of the demand mode for p2p LSP monitoring is feasible and requi=
red.</p>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Best Regards,</p>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Xiao Min</p>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988zMailSi=
gn">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988zMailSi=
gnContent">
<div></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988zMailFr=
om"></div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988zhistor=
yRow" style=3D"display:block">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988zhistor=
yDes" style=3D"width:100%;height:28px;line-height:28px;background-color:rgb=
(224,229,233);color:rgb(19,136,255);text-align:center">
=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988zwriteHist=
oryContainer">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988zhistor=
yPanel gmail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988control-group"=
>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988zhistor=
yHeader" style=3D"padding:8px;background-color:rgb(245,246,248)">
<div><strong>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"gm=
ail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988zreadUserName">JeffreyH=
aas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org" target=3D"_blank">jhaas@pfrc.org<=
/a>&gt;</span></div>
<div><strong>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"gm=
ail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988zreadUserName" style=3D=
"display:inline"><a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-=
bfd@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span></div>
<div><strong>=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</strong><span>2018=E5=B9=B410=E6=
=9C=8818=E6=97=A5 06:24</span></div>
<div><strong>=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"gmail-m_2=
430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988zreadTitle"><strong>WG Adoptio=
n request for draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand</strong></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2430898668528421157gmail-m_7359621806897319988zhistor=
yContent">
<div>Working=C2=A0Group,<br>
<br>
The=C2=A0BFD=C2=A0chairs=C2=A0have=C2=A0received=C2=A0an=C2=A0adoption=C2=
=A0request=C2=A0for=C2=A0<br>
&quot;BFD=C2=A0in=C2=A0Demand=C2=A0Mode=C2=A0over=C2=A0Point-to-Point=C2=A0=
MPLS=C2=A0LSP&quot;<br>
(draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand).<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand/" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-de=
mand/</a><br>
<br>
The=C2=A0adoption=C2=A0call=C2=A0will=C2=A0end=C2=A0on=C2=A0the=C2=A0Friday=
=C2=A0after=C2=A0IETF=C2=A0103,=C2=A0November=C2=A09.<br>
<br>
Note=C2=A0that=C2=A0there=C2=A0is=C2=A0are=C2=A0existing=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0stat=
ements=C2=A0on=C2=A0this=C2=A0draft:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3301/" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3301/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3104/" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3104/</a><br>
<br>
Please=C2=A0indicate=C2=A0to=C2=A0the=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list=C2=A0whether=
=C2=A0you=C2=A0support=C2=A0adoption=C2=A0of=C2=A0this<br>
draft.<br>
<br>
--=C2=A0Jeff=C2=A0&amp;=C2=A0Reshad<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div></div></div>

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In-Reply-To: <0851BB5B-6141-4B02-B6BB-0D34F407C53E@cisco.com>
From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 09:30:37 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmVk1jAe6-sbHfa6BF=d6ztbWgkQ9xGZ5cMD8SgLGwrW8A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org
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Hi Carlos,
thank you for your support and the comment about the reference to BFD for
Multipoint Networks draft. You have a point, and I agree that the sentence
and thus the reference can be removed altogether. I'll check with other
authors and will update the group accordingly.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 9:07 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> +1. Support publication as this is useful and technically sound.
>
> I do not understand why  [I-D.ietf-bfd-multipoint] is a Normative
> reference, or frankly a reference at all. I do not think there=E2=80=99s =
a need to
> reference every potential thin outside scope.
>
> Thanks,
>
> =E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro
>
> On Oct 22, 2018, at 9:56 AM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I support publication of this draft. It is a useful OAM building block.
>
> Thanks,
> Donald
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>  1424 Pro Shop Court, Davenport, FL 33896 USA
>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 6:14 PM Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
>
>> Working Group,
>>
>> This starts the Working Group Last Call for BFD for VxLAN.  This last ca=
ll
>> ends the Friday after IETF, November 9.
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
>>
>> Please comment whether you believe this document is ready to advance or
>> not..
>>
>> There is currently one IPR statement on this draft:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193/
>>
>> Authors, please publicly state to the mailing list whether you know of a=
ny
>> additional IPR that impacts this draft.
>>
>> -- Jeff & Reshad
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Forwarded message from Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> -----
>>
>> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:47:19 -0700
>> From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> To: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Marc Binderberger <marc@sniff.de>
>> Cc: bfd-chairs@ietf.org
>> Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt
>>
>> Dear All,
>> the new version is to address comments from Marc (big thank you, Marc).
>> Please note that IDNits err on downref to the normative reference
>> to Informational RFC 7348.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>>
>

--000000000000e7cf9e0579243db9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,<div>thank you for your support and the comment =
about the reference to BFD for Multipoint Networks draft. You have a point,=
 and I agree that the sentence and thus the reference can be removed altoge=
ther. I&#39;ll check with other authors and will update the group according=
ly.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 9:07 PM Carlos=
 Pignataro (cpignata) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com">cpignata@ci=
sco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
+1. Support publication as this is useful and technically sound.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do not understand why=C2=A0=C2=A0[I-D.ietf-bfd-multipoint] is a Norm=
ative reference, or frankly a reference at all. I do not think there=E2=80=
=99s a need to reference every potential thin outside scope.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-spac=
e">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
Thanks,</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
=E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 22, 2018, at 9:56 AM, Donald Eastlake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d3e=
3e3@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_-2026431665848189915Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I support publication of this draft. It is a useful OAM bu=
ilding block.
<div><br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"m_-2026431665848189915gmail_signature" data-smart=
mail=3D"gmail_signature">Thanks,<br>
Donald<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
=C2=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =C2=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)<br>
=C2=A01424 Pro Shop Court, Davenport, FL 33896 USA<br>
=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">d3e3e3@gmail.co=
m</a></div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 6:14 PM Jeffrey Haas &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org" target=3D"_blank">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Working Group,<br>
<br>
This starts the Working Group Last Call for BFD for VxLAN.=C2=A0 This last =
call<br>
ends the Friday after IETF, November 9.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bf=
d-vxlan/</a><br>
<br>
Please comment whether you believe this document is ready to advance or not=
..<br>
<br>
There is currently one IPR statement on this draft:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193/" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3193/</a><br>
<br>
Authors, please publicly state to the mailing list whether you know of any<=
br>
additional IPR that impacts this draft.<br>
<br>
-- Jeff &amp; Reshad<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Forwarded message from Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; -----<br>
<br>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:47:19 -0700<br>
From: Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
To: rtg-bfd WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rt=
g-bfd@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Marc Binderberger &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marc@sniff.=
de" target=3D"_blank">marc@sniff.de</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:bfd-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bfd-chairs@iet=
f.org</a><br>
Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-03.txt<br>
<br>
Dear All,<br>
the new version is to address comments from Marc (big thank you, Marc).<br>
Please note that IDNits err on downref to the normative reference<br>
to Informational RFC 7348.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Greg<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--000000000000e7cf9e0579243db9--


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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
CC: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
CC: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "xiao.min2@zte.com.cn" <xiao.min2@zte.com.cn>, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand
Thread-Topic: WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand
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Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 21:28:18 +0000
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, ending November 9
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Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 21:28:33 +0000
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 12:14:35 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmXWD7tdMBV1VGMcVZs5TQSdak9HKaQn7NM0cLvgVPOctQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Hi Carlos,
thank you for the continued discussion. Please find my answers in-line
tagged GIM>>.

Regards,
Greg

On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 8:45 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Xiao,
>
> Thanks much for the quick response!
>
> Please find my follow ups:
>
> 1. Sorry if I was not clear. Yes, RFC 5880 lists exemplary possible
> mechanisms to glean continued connectivity but requires the use of one. M=
y
> question is: which mechanisms does this draft propose? Could it please be
> spelled out?
>
GIM>> I have to point that:

   - BFD for Multipoint Networks uses the Demand mode of BFD with no such
   mechanism;
   - BFD for Multipoint Networks with Active Tail uses Poll sequence
   (possibly combination of multicast Poll and unicast Poll) to verify
   availability of the multicast path. But according to your interpretation=
 of
   RFC 5880, this is not one of mechanisms to be used.

Now I have a question to you Do you believe that these two BFD
specifications for multicast and multipoint networks are insufifcient or
impaired because of the way the Demand mode being used?

>
> 2. Again, apologies if I was not clean enough. I understand what the
> abstract says, but the quoted text says that live was needs to be checked
> for a node (egress LER) instead of the forwarding path. Does that mean ~
> =E2=80=9Cof the forwarding path towards/upto the node=E2=80=9D?
>
GIM>> Thank you for pointing to this issue. In the next version will
clarify that the Poll sequence allows the ingress LER to verify
availability of the LSP and the liveness of the egress LER.

>
> Thanks for your consideration.
>
> Thumb typed by Carlos Pignataro.
> Excuze typofraphicak errows
>
> On Oct 27, 2018, at 01:07, "xiao.min2@zte.com.cn" <xiao.min2@zte.com.cn>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
>
> My answers to your two questions are as follow:
>
>    1.
>
>    In section 6.6 of RFC5880, just after the text you quoted, it says
>    "One possible mechanism is the receipt of traffic from the remote syst=
em;
>    another is the use of the Echo function." So I'm not sure what's your =
real
>    concern.
>    2.
>
>    In the abstract of this draft it says "This document describes
>    procedures for using Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) in Deman=
d
>    mode to detect data plane failures in Multiprotocol Label Switching (M=
PLS)
>    point-to-point Label Switched Paths." If you don't like the expression=
 form
>    of the text quoted by you, pls feel free to propose some text.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Xiao Min
> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*CarlosPignataro(cpignata) <cpignata=
@cisco.com>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E8=82=96=E6=95=8F10093570;
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Jeff Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>;rtg-bfd@=
ietf.org <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>;
> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2018=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 12:04
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**Re: WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-=
bfd-mpls-demand*
> Xiao,
> Scanning through the draft, two questions:
>
> 1. What is the underlying mechanism to check liveness such that Demand ca=
n
> be used?
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.6
>
>    Demand mode requires that some other mechanism is used to imply
>    continuing connectivity between the two systems.  The mechanism used
>
>
> 2. Is this draft testing liveness of a path or a node?
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand-03#section-3
>
>    In this state BFD peers MAY remain as long as the egress LER is in Up
>    state.  The ingress LER MAY check liveness of the egress LER by
>    setting the Poll flag.  The egress LER will respond by transmitting
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> =E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro
>
> On Oct 19, 2018, at 9:59 PM, xiao.min2@zte.com.cn wrote:
>
> I support WG adoption of this draft. Use of the demand mode for p2p LSP
> monitoring is feasible and required.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Xiao Min
>
>
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*JeffreyHaas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*rtg-bfd@ietf.org <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>=
;
> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2018=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8818=E6=97=A5 06:24
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-bfd-=
mpls-demand*
> Working Group,
>
> The BFD chairs have received an adoption request for
> "BFD in Demand Mode over Point-to-Point MPLS LSP"
> (draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand).
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand/
>
> The adoption call will end on the Friday after IETF 103, November 9.
>
> Note that there is are existing IPR statements on this draft:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3301/
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3104/
>
> Please indicate to the mailing list whether you support adoption of this
> draft.
>
> -- Jeff & Reshad
>
>
>

--0000000000001b685a05793aa659
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,<div>thank you for the continued=C2=A0discussion=
. Please find my=C2=A0answers in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 8:45 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div dir=3D"auto">
Hi Xiao,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks much for the quick response!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please find my follow ups:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. Sorry if I was not clear. Yes, RFC 5880 lists exemplary possible me=
chanisms to glean continued connectivity but requires the use of one. My qu=
estion is: which mechanisms does this draft propose? Could it please be spe=
lled out?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I have to point that:</d=
iv><div><ul><li>BFD for Multipoint Networks uses the Demand mode of BFD wit=
h no such mechanism;</li><li>BFD for Multipoint Networks with Active Tail u=
ses Poll sequence (possibly combination of multicast Poll and unicast Poll)=
 to verify availability of the multicast path. But according to your interp=
retation of RFC 5880, this is not one of mechanisms to be used.<br></li></u=
l>Now I have a question to you Do you believe that these two BFD specificat=
ions for multicast and multipoint networks are insufifcient or impaired bec=
ause of the way the Demand mode being used?</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2. Again, apologies if I was not clean enough. I understand what the a=
bstract says, but the quoted text says that live was needs to be checked fo=
r a node (egress LER) instead of the forwarding path. Does that mean ~ =E2=
=80=9Cof the forwarding path towards/upto
 the node=E2=80=9D?<br></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you =
for pointing to this issue. In the next version will clarify that the Poll =
sequence allows the ingress LER to verify availability of the LSP and the l=
iveness of the egress LER.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><div>
<br>
Thanks for your consideration.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
<div id=3D"m_-1421749041328834457AppleMailSignature" dir=3D"ltr"><span clas=
s=3D"m_-1421749041328834457Apple-style-span">Thumb
 typed by Carlos Pignataro.</span>
<div><span class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457Apple-style-span">Excuze typofrap=
hicak errows</span></div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
On Oct 27, 2018, at 01:07, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:xiao.min2@zte.com.cn" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">xiao.min2@zte.com.cn</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiao.m=
in2@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">xiao.min2@zte.com.cn</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457zcontentRow">
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Hi Carlos,</p>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">My answers to your two questi=
ons are as follow:</p>
<ol class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457list-paddingleft-2" style=3D"list-style-=
type:decimal">
<li>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">In section 6.6 of RFC5880, ju=
st after the text you quoted, it says &quot;One possible mechanism is the r=
eceipt of traffic from the remote system; another is the use of the Echo fu=
nction.&quot; So I&#39;m not sure what&#39;s your real
 concern.</p>
</li><li>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">In the abstract of this draft=
 it says &quot;This document describes procedures for using Bidirectional F=
orwarding Detection (BFD) in Demand mode to detect data plane failures in M=
ultiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) point-to-point
 Label Switched Paths.&quot; If you don&#39;t like the expression form of t=
he text quoted by you, pls feel free to propose some text.</p>
</li></ol>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Best Regards,</p>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Xiao Min</p>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457zhistoryRow" style=3D"display:block">
<div class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457zhistoryDes" style=3D"width:100%;height=
:28px;line-height:28px;background-color:#e0e5e9;color:#1388ff;text-align:ce=
nter">
=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6</div>
<div id=3D"m_-1421749041328834457zwriteHistoryContainer">
<div class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457control-group m_-1421749041328834457zhi=
storyPanel">
<div class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457zhistoryHeader" style=3D"padding:8px;ba=
ckground-color:#f5f6f8">
<div><strong>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_=
-1421749041328834457zreadUserName">CarlosPignataro(cpignata) &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan></div>
<div><strong>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_=
-1421749041328834457zreadUserName" style=3D"display:inline">=E8=82=96=E6=95=
=8F10093570;</span></div>
<div><strong>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_=
-1421749041328834457zreadUserName" style=3D"display:inline">Jeff Haas &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org" target=3D"_blank">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt;;<=
/span><span class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457zreadUserName" style=3D"display:=
inline"><a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-bfd@ietf.=
org</a>
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-bfd@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;;</span></div>
<div><strong>=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</strong><span>2018=E5=B9=B410=E6=
=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 12:04</span></div>
<div><strong>=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_-142174=
9041328834457zreadTitle"><strong>Re: WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-b=
fd-mpls-demand</strong></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457zhistoryContent">
<div>Xiao,<br>
<div>Scanning through the draft, two questions:</div>
<br>
<div>1. What is the underlying mechanism to check liveness such that Demand=
 can be used?</div>
<br>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.6" target=3D"=
_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.6</a></div>
<br>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Demand mode requires that some other mechanism is used to=
 imply</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0continuing connectivity between the two systems.=C2=A0 Th=
e mechanism used</div>
<br class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457Apple-interchange-newline">
<br>
</div>
<div>2. Is this draft testing liveness of a path or a node?</div>
<br>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand-03=
#section-3" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-bfd-=
mpls-demand-03#section-3</a></div>
<br>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0In this state BFD peers MAY remain as long as the egress =
LER is in Up</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0state.=C2=A0 The ingress LER MAY check liveness of the eg=
ress LER by</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0setting the Poll flag.=C2=A0 The egress LER will respond =
by transmitting</div>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-spac=
e">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
Thanks,</div>
<br>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
=E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 19, 2018, at 9:59 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:xiao.min2@zte.com.cn" t=
arget=3D"_blank">
xiao.min2@zte.com.cn</a> wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">I support WG adoption of this=
 draft. Use of the demand mode for p2p LSP monitoring is feasible and requi=
red.</p>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Best Regards,</p>
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Xiao Min</p>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457zhistoryPanel m_-1421749041328834457con=
trol-group">
<div class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457zhistoryHeader" style=3D"padding:8px;ba=
ckground-color:#f5f6f8">
<div><strong>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_=
-1421749041328834457zreadUserName">JeffreyHaas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@=
pfrc.org" target=3D"_blank">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt;</span></div>
<div><strong>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_=
-1421749041328834457zreadUserName" style=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mail=
to:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span>=
</div>
<div><strong>=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</strong><span>2018=E5=B9=B410=E6=
=9C=8818=E6=97=A5 06:24</span></div>
<div><strong>=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_-142174=
9041328834457zreadTitle"><strong>WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-bfd-m=
pls-demand</strong></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"m_-1421749041328834457zhistoryContent">
<div>Working=C2=A0Group,<br>
<br>
The=C2=A0BFD=C2=A0chairs=C2=A0have=C2=A0received=C2=A0an=C2=A0adoption=C2=
=A0request=C2=A0for=C2=A0<br>
&quot;BFD=C2=A0in=C2=A0Demand=C2=A0Mode=C2=A0over=C2=A0Point-to-Point=C2=A0=
MPLS=C2=A0LSP&quot;<br>
(draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand).<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand/" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-de=
mand/</a><br>
<br>
The=C2=A0adoption=C2=A0call=C2=A0will=C2=A0end=C2=A0on=C2=A0the=C2=A0Friday=
=C2=A0after=C2=A0IETF=C2=A0103,=C2=A0November=C2=A09.<br>
<br>
Note=C2=A0that=C2=A0there=C2=A0is=C2=A0are=C2=A0existing=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0stat=
ements=C2=A0on=C2=A0this=C2=A0draft:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3301/" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3301/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3104/" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3104/</a><br>
<br>
Please=C2=A0indicate=C2=A0to=C2=A0the=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list=C2=A0whether=
=C2=A0you=C2=A0support=C2=A0adoption=C2=A0of=C2=A0this<br>
draft.<br>
<br>
--=C2=A0Jeff=C2=A0&amp;=C2=A0Reshad<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000001b685a05793aa659--


From nobody Mon Oct 29 08:36:21 2018
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Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 11:35:34 -0400
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
Cc: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Message-ID: <20181029153534.GL12336@pfrc.org>
References: <E052CA19-228D-4271-BF9E-7499255E7C53@cisco.com> <7332e35048d34d44a65ea70df409699c@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <90B9205E-CBD8-4779-96D1-2D15BD1F7E24@cisco.com> <e08744fc4b264fd1bf9844dd0f29557e@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <59DD4DA1-6C83-4D3D-92E7-B4271EB259E8@cisco.com> <2dc00a0d58db41958ad61d73d08ead17@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <20181025153804.GD12336@pfrc.org> <B5988BA3-E039-47C5-9145-48747700E197@cisco.com>
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Reshad,

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 06:32:26PM +0000, Reshad Rahman (rrahman) wrote:
>On 2018-10-25, 11:38 AM, "Jeffrey Haas" <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
> >     The draft I had previously worked on with Xiao Min discussing probing using
> >     BFD Echo had the concept of probes that would happen wherein the session is
> >     not torn down.  The example carries similarly with the "send occasional".
>
> <RR> We discussed use of echo at IETF102. The large-packets draft mentions
> that echo can only be used for single-hop, hence the need for padding the
> control packets. But isn't single-hop Albert's main use-case? 

It's Albert's primary use case.  And, I think a common related one is
protecting tunnels of various flavors; e.g. GRE or IPsec.

> I believe we
> should add the echo option in the large-packets draft, it has the benefit
> that you get the desired functionality even if only 1 side of the WAN link
> supports echo. I realize not all implementations support echo so they
> might have to do pad control packets instead.

While I don't think Albert or I would have any objections to adding Echo
discussion in the existing document, we perhaps risk running into one of the
issues Xiao and I had briefly discussed.  Echo is intentionally
under-specified in RFC 5880 et seq.  While it's possible that we can simply
put in a discussion section that says "if you use Echo mode with similar
padding, you can get similar benefit", I think that may be as far as we want
to go.

The related observation is that nothing stops an Echo implementation from
doing this with no changes to the protocol. :-)

-- Jeff


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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org
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Subject: WG Adoption for draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted
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Working Group,

Reviewing my notes, I was remiss in sending out an adoption request for
draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted (Unsolicited BFD for Sessionless Applications).

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited/

This relatively minor change from the RFC 5880 spec is implemented by at
least one vendor for static route configuration.  Its security
considerations already cover what I believe to be the main concern with the
procedural change.

There's a minor point to resolve regarding the document's status - currently
Informational - with our AD.

Please indicate whether you'd support adopting this draft as a Working Group
document.

Authors, please indicate if you're aware of any applicable IPR on it.

This adoption request will also end on Friday, November 9, IETF 103 Friday.

-- Jeff & Reshad


From nobody Mon Oct 29 09:11:09 2018
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Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 12:10:26 -0400
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.txt
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Mahesh,

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 09:24:59PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> thank you for your quick response. The comment regarding the state change,
> as I understand from the minutes, came from Jeff.
> Yes, the question was about the periodic authentication in Up state. I
> believe that at the meeting WG arrived at a very good solution and we've
> agreed to make the appropriate changes in the document. I don't think that
> the current version reflects the WG decision that in Up state authenticated
> BFD control packets are transmitted periodically in sets of not less than
> Detect Multiplier.

I think the text is very close to what we'd likely want.  Here's the text in
the current draft:

:    Most frames transmitted on a BFD session are BFD CC UP frames.
:    Authenticating a small subset of these frames, for example, a detect
:    multiplier number of packets per configured period, significantly
:    reduces the computational demand for the system while maintaining
:    security of the session across the configured authentication periods.

Given BFD procedures, I believe we'd normally want to transmit at *least*
Detect Multiplier number of packets to ensure that the remote site has seen it.

How about the following text?

Most frames transmitted on a BFD session are BFD CC UP frames.
Authenticating a small subset of these frames, significantly
reduces the computational demand for the system while maintaining
security of the session across the configured authentication periods.
A minimum of Detect Multiplier packets MUST be transmitted per configured
periodic authentication interval.  This ensures that the BFD session should
see at least one authenticated packet during that interval.

-- Jeff


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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
CC: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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From nobody Mon Oct 29 09:37:48 2018
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Changed milestone "Submit a BFD Yang module to the IESG to be considered as a
Proposed Standard", resolved as "Done", added draft-ietf-bfd-yang to
milestone.

URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/bfd/about/


From nobody Mon Oct 29 09:39:10 2018
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
CC: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Index: AQHUZn7F2obCS5tWFUCJRL2ls+mZdKUo1C+ggAHIywD//67wkIAAV7mA///Hi8CABg0XgIABf/0AgATIogD//70FAA==
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 16:39:04 +0000
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References: <E052CA19-228D-4271-BF9E-7499255E7C53@cisco.com> <7332e35048d34d44a65ea70df409699c@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <90B9205E-CBD8-4779-96D1-2D15BD1F7E24@cisco.com> <e08744fc4b264fd1bf9844dd0f29557e@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <59DD4DA1-6C83-4D3D-92E7-B4271EB259E8@cisco.com> <2dc00a0d58db41958ad61d73d08ead17@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <20181025153804.GD12336@pfrc.org> <B5988BA3-E039-47C5-9145-48747700E197@cisco.com> <20181029153534.GL12336@pfrc.org>
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Jeff/Albert -

Given the MTU issue is associated with a link coming up - and the use of Ec=
ho would allow the problem to be detected and prevent the BFD session from =
coming up -=20
and you are acknowledging that the protocol allows padded Echo packets toda=
y ...

is there really a need to do anything more?

   Les

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 8:36 AM
> To: Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@cisco.com>
> Cc: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>; Naiming Shen (naiming)
> <naiming@cisco.com>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
>=20
> Reshad,
>=20
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 06:32:26PM +0000, Reshad Rahman (rrahman) wrote:
> >On 2018-10-25, 11:38 AM, "Jeffrey Haas" <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
> > >     The draft I had previously worked on with Xiao Min discussing pro=
bing
> using
> > >     BFD Echo had the concept of probes that would happen wherein the
> session is
> > >     not torn down.  The example carries similarly with the "send
> occasional".
> >
> > <RR> We discussed use of echo at IETF102. The large-packets draft
> mentions
> > that echo can only be used for single-hop, hence the need for padding t=
he
> > control packets. But isn't single-hop Albert's main use-case?
>=20
> It's Albert's primary use case.  And, I think a common related one is
> protecting tunnels of various flavors; e.g. GRE or IPsec.
>=20
> > I believe we
> > should add the echo option in the large-packets draft, it has the benef=
it
> > that you get the desired functionality even if only 1 side of the WAN l=
ink
> > supports echo. I realize not all implementations support echo so they
> > might have to do pad control packets instead.
>=20
> While I don't think Albert or I would have any objections to adding Echo
> discussion in the existing document, we perhaps risk running into one of =
the
> issues Xiao and I had briefly discussed.  Echo is intentionally
> under-specified in RFC 5880 et seq.  While it's possible that we can simp=
ly
> put in a discussion section that says "if you use Echo mode with similar
> padding, you can get similar benefit", I think that may be as far as we w=
ant
> to go.
>=20
> The related observation is that nothing stops an Echo implementation from
> doing this with no changes to the protocol. :-)
>=20
> -- Jeff


From nobody Mon Oct 29 09:39:20 2018
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Subject: Milestones changed for bfd WG
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Deleted milestone "Submit a BFD MIB extension in support of the generic
keying document to the IESG to be considered as a Proposed Standard".

Deleted milestone "Submit the BFD MPLS extension MIB to the IESG to be
considered as a Proposed Standard".

URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/bfd/about/


From nobody Mon Oct 29 09:42:27 2018
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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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References: <E052CA19-228D-4271-BF9E-7499255E7C53@cisco.com> <7332e35048d34d44a65ea70df409699c@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <90B9205E-CBD8-4779-96D1-2D15BD1F7E24@cisco.com> <e08744fc4b264fd1bf9844dd0f29557e@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <59DD4DA1-6C83-4D3D-92E7-B4271EB259E8@cisco.com> <2dc00a0d58db41958ad61d73d08ead17@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <20181025153804.GD12336@pfrc.org> <B5988BA3-E039-47C5-9145-48747700E197@cisco.com> <20181029153534.GL12336@pfrc.org> <97dc2816249742649218b7b49b475410@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com>
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On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:39:04PM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
> Given the MTU issue is associated with a link coming up - and the use of Echo would allow the problem to be detected and prevent the BFD session from coming up - 
> and you are acknowledging that the protocol allows padded Echo packets today ...
> 
> is there really a need to do anything more?

... the fact that the majority of BFD implementations on the planet do not
support Echo mode?

Not to mention my whole comment that BFD Echo is intentionally
under-specified.  The result being that any attempt to specify anything in
it will likely cause interop headaches.

-- Jeff 


From nobody Mon Oct 29 09:55:11 2018
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
CC: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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Jeff -

I note that no one supports "large-packets" today.
So is the gap between supporting echo mode for this purpose any larger than=
 the gap for introducing large packet support?

   Les


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 9:42 AM
> To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
> Cc: Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@cisco.com>; Naiming Shen
> (naiming) <naiming@cisco.com>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
>=20
> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:39:04PM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
> > Given the MTU issue is associated with a link coming up - and the use o=
f
> Echo would allow the problem to be detected and prevent the BFD session
> from coming up -
> > and you are acknowledging that the protocol allows padded Echo packets
> today ...
> >
> > is there really a need to do anything more?
>=20
> ... the fact that the majority of BFD implementations on the planet do no=
t
> support Echo mode?
>=20
> Not to mention my whole comment that BFD Echo is intentionally
> under-specified.  The result being that any attempt to specify anything i=
n
> it will likely cause interop headaches.
>=20
> -- Jeff


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Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-06.txt
From: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
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Hi Jeff,

> On Oct 29, 2018, at 9:10 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
>=20
> Mahesh,
>=20
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 09:24:59PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
>> thank you for your quick response. The comment regarding the state =
change,
>> as I understand from the minutes, came from Jeff.
>> Yes, the question was about the periodic authentication in Up state. =
I
>> believe that at the meeting WG arrived at a very good solution and =
we've
>> agreed to make the appropriate changes in the document. I don't think =
that
>> the current version reflects the WG decision that in Up state =
authenticated
>> BFD control packets are transmitted periodically in sets of not less =
than
>> Detect Multiplier.
>=20
> I think the text is very close to what we'd likely want.  Here's the =
text in
> the current draft:
>=20
> :    Most frames transmitted on a BFD session are BFD CC UP frames.
> :    Authenticating a small subset of these frames, for example, a =
detect
> :    multiplier number of packets per configured period, significantly
> :    reduces the computational demand for the system while maintaining
> :    security of the session across the configured authentication =
periods.
>=20
> Given BFD procedures, I believe we'd normally want to transmit at =
*least*
> Detect Multiplier number of packets to ensure that the remote site has =
seen it.
>=20
> How about the following text?
>=20
> Most frames transmitted on a BFD session are BFD CC UP frames.
> Authenticating a small subset of these frames, significantly
> reduces the computational demand for the system while maintaining
> security of the session across the configured authentication periods.
> A minimum of Detect Multiplier packets MUST be transmitted per =
configured
> periodic authentication interval.  This ensures that the BFD session =
should
> see at least one authenticated packet during that interval.

Ok. Will update and post once the submission window opens up.

>=20
> -- Jeff

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com




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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
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--_000_4cf7076b81ea486c985921eb222c8ebaXCHALN001ciscocom_--


From nobody Mon Oct 29 11:26:58 2018
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Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 14:26:16 -0400
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: Albert Fu <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "jhaas@juniper.net" <jhaas@juniper.net>,  "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?B?UmU6oEJGRKBXR6BhZG9w?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?tion=A0for=A0draft-haas-bfd-large-packets?=
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Les,

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 06:13:53PM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
> The fact that the problem is not detected on protocol adjacency formation
> does not mean the problem gets introduced afterwards. Unless you are
> saying that folks change the link MTU AFTER the link comes up and has been
> used for a while the problem exists as soon as the link comes up. You
> could therefore detect this in a number of ways:

It feels like you're missing part of the issue, Les.  Here's an example
timeline.

1. Customer is delivered a link that is provisioned with 1500 MTU.

2. The link is implemented, e.g., with l2vpn.  It could be frame relay. It
could be whatever, but is likely not a TDM link as of old.

3. The link starts getting used.  Things are fine.

4a. There's a topology change in the l2vpn network.  A result is that another
label gets used and effective path MTU is reduced.  We now start dropping
full sized packets.

4b. The l2vpn traverses an internal ECMP, and one leg of it develops an MTU
issue due to a topology change and additional label usage.  We now start
dropping full sized packets sometimes.

To your points:

> 1)Use IS-IS ☺

Great when you can!

> 2)Enhance other routing protocols to do what IS-IS does
> 3)Send BFD large packets (Echo or async)

3 - see 2. :-)

> 4)Potentially some other OAM mechanism

If you have a list of other mechanisms, please list them.  Minimally,
they're good fodder for the draft.

> In regards to #3, unless you believe link MTUs will change “on the fly”,

Effectively, this happens.

> sending the large packets during initial session bringup would be
> sufficient. If folks are concerned (as I am) that sending large BFD
> packets all the time introduces some risks for scalability/stability of
> BFD sessions, then one strategy would be to send the large packets only on
> session bringup.

The scalability/stability issues are understood to be a potential issue.
Hence doing this as a draft and engaging discussion.

But hopefully you can see above where simply doing MTU probing only at the
beginning is not sufficient.

It's also arguable that doing it for every single packet isn't necessary for
many people's scenarios.  How often is it needed?  By whom?  With what
detection interval?  Again, good points for discussion.

> FYI, some implementations have knobs on IS-IS to do exactly this i.e.,
> send padded hellos until the adjacency is formed – then revert to small
> hellos.

This wouldn't cover Albert's scenario.

> In the case of BFD I think there is a more compelling reason to be
> conservative in how often you send large packets given where it is
> implemented and how often the BFD packets are sent.

You don't need to convince me. :-)

-- Jeff


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From: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
CC: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited@ietf.org" <draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited@ietf.org>
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Support as a co-author.

Regards,
- Naiming

> On Oct 29, 2018, at 8:52 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
>=20
> Working Group,
>=20
> Reviewing my notes, I was remiss in sending out an adoption request for
> draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted (Unsolicited BFD for Sessionless Applications).
>=20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited/
>=20
> This relatively minor change from the RFC 5880 spec is implemented by at
> least one vendor for static route configuration.  Its security
> considerations already cover what I believe to be the main concern with t=
he
> procedural change.
>=20
> There's a minor point to resolve regarding the document's status - curren=
tly
> Informational - with our AD.
>=20
> Please indicate whether you'd support adopting this draft as a Working Gr=
oup
> document.
>=20
> Authors, please indicate if you're aware of any applicable IPR on it.
>=20
> This adoption request will also end on Friday, November 9, IETF 103 Frida=
y.
>=20
> -- Jeff & Reshad


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Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 15:04:20 -0700
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
Cc: "=?utf-8?Q?rtg-bfd=40ietf.org?=" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>,  "=?utf-8?Q?draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited=40ietf.org?=" <draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited@ietf.org>
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References: <20181029155232.GN12336@pfrc.org> <1259DC2C-93CE-4B9A-867E-681B02971079@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: WG Adoption for draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted
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--5bd783f2_4365174b_1491
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Yes/support
Makes sense, in Redback times we had a design to build it that way (never did though), not an IPR disclosure .

Cheers,
Jeff
On Oct 29, 2018, 2:32 PM -0700, Naiming Shen (naiming) <naiming@cisco.com>, wrote:
>
> Support as a co-author.
>
> Regards,
> - Naiming
>
> > On Oct 29, 2018, at 8:52 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
> >
> > Working Group,
> >
> > Reviewing my notes, I was remiss in sending out an adoption request for
> > draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted (Unsolicited BFD for Sessionless Applications).
> >
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited/
> >
> > This relatively minor change from the RFC 5880 spec is implemented by at
> > least one vendor for static route configuration. Its security
> > considerations already cover what I believe to be the main concern with the
> > procedural change.
> >
> > There's a minor point to resolve regarding the document's status - currently
> > Informational - with our AD.
> >
> > Please indicate whether you'd support adopting this draft as a Working Group
> > document.
> >
> > Authors, please indicate if you're aware of any applicable IPR on it.
> >
> > This adoption request will also end on Friday, November 9, IETF 103 Friday.
> >
> > -- Jeff & Reshad
>

--5bd783f2_4365174b_1491
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<html xmlns=3D=22http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml=22>
<head>
<title></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D=22messageBodySection=22 style=3D=22font-size: 14px; font-fam=
ily: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystem=46ont, sans-serif;=22>Yes/support
<div>Makes sense, in Redback times we had a design to build it that way (=
never did though), not an IPR disclosure .&=23160;</div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageSignatureSection=22 style=3D=22font-size: 14px; fon=
t-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystem=46ont, sans-serif;=22><br />
Cheers,
<div>Jeff</div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageReplySection=22 style=3D=22font-size: 14px; font-fa=
mily: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystem=46ont, sans-serif;=22>On Oct 29, 2018=
, 2:32 PM -0700, Naiming Shen (naiming) &lt;naiming=40cisco.com&gt;, wrot=
e:<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 1=
0px; border-left: thin solid =231abc9c;=22><br />
Support as a co-author.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
- Naiming<br />
<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 1=
0px; border-left: thin solid =23e67e22;=22>On Oct 29, 2018, at 8:52 AM, J=
effrey Haas &lt;jhaas=40pfrc.org&gt; wrote:<br />
<br />
Working Group,<br />
<br />
Reviewing my notes, I was remiss in sending out an adoption request for<b=
r />
draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted (Unsolicited B=46D for Sessionless Applications=
).<br />
<br />
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited/<br />
<br />
This relatively minor change from the R=46C 5880 spec is implemented by a=
t<br />
least one vendor for static route configuration. Its security<br />
considerations already cover what I believe to be the main concern with t=
he<br />
procedural change.<br />
<br />
There's a minor point to resolve regarding the document's status - curren=
tly<br />
Informational - with our AD.<br />
<br />
Please indicate whether you'd support adopting this draft as a Working Gr=
oup<br />
document.<br />
<br />
Authors, please indicate if you're aware of any applicable IPR on it.<br =
/>
<br />
This adoption request will also end on =46riday, November 9, IET=46 103 =46=
riday.<br />
<br />
-- Jeff &amp; Reshad<br /></blockquote>
<br /></blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5bd783f2_4365174b_1491--


From nobody Mon Oct 29 16:52:59 2018
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited@ietf.org" <draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: WG Adoption for draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted
Thread-Topic: WG Adoption for draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted
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Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 23:52:53 +0000
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The problem the draft addresses is valid and makes sense to address. But I =
know there are implementations which have addressed this issue w/o requirin=
g any changes to their BFD implementation - so I am not sure how popular th=
is solution will be.

So long as this stays Informational I think it is fine to adopt. I would no=
t be as enthused if this is moved to Standards track.

   Les


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rtg-bfd <rtg-bfd-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeffrey Haas
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 8:53 AM
> To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org
> Cc: draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited@ietf.org
> Subject: WG Adoption for draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted
>=20
> Working Group,
>=20
> Reviewing my notes, I was remiss in sending out an adoption request for
> draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted (Unsolicited BFD for Sessionless Applications).
>=20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited/
>=20
> This relatively minor change from the RFC 5880 spec is implemented by at
> least one vendor for static route configuration.  Its security
> considerations already cover what I believe to be the main concern with t=
he
> procedural change.
>=20
> There's a minor point to resolve regarding the document's status - curren=
tly
> Informational - with our AD.
>=20
> Please indicate whether you'd support adopting this draft as a Working
> Group
> document.
>=20
> Authors, please indicate if you're aware of any applicable IPR on it.
>=20
> This adoption request will also end on Friday, November 9, IETF 103 Frida=
y.
>=20
> -- Jeff & Reshad


From nobody Mon Oct 29 18:58:15 2018
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From: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
CC: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited@ietf.org" <draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WG Adoption for draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted
Thread-Topic: WG Adoption for draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted
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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 01:58:09 +0000
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
CC: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited@ietf.org" <draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: WG Adoption for draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted
Thread-Topic: WG Adoption for draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted
Thread-Index: AQHUb5+IJwTkiuXyz0u8RiYKF4/RB6U25M1QgAB3yID//8fNMA==
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 03:42:27 +0000
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From: "Naiming Shen (naiming)" <naiming@cisco.com>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
CC: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited@ietf.org" <draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WG Adoption for draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted
Thread-Topic: WG Adoption for draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted
Thread-Index: AQHUb5+E62EdVh/GO0aQbosNraNnAaU3OZaAgAAi/gCAAB0lgIABOoyA
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 22:28:15 +0000
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References: <20181029155232.GN12336@pfrc.org> <75992c66b45345f59e420d832d1b54b8@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <92F496D8-8260-4065-B03A-F967BC146324@cisco.com> <bb6394f856d64f8da62f9507086bd710@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com>
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