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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 14:13:51 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmVbWkDK3o2ZREv2jat++O3hNWBA4_Yn-ynyDdjpG+GjXw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mpls] MPLS WG adoption call for draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: mpls-chairs@ietf.org, mpls@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Hi Carlos,
thank you for your comments. Please find my notes, answers in-line tagged
GIM>>.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 8:47 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Cc BFD WG
>
> It would be useful to understand the use case motivation or applicability
> of this draft, other than it can be done.
>
GIM>>  The motivation can be seen in the following (from another draft that
discusses OAM over G-ACh:
  In some
   environments, the overhead of extra IP/UDP encapsulations may be
   considered as overburden and make using more compact G-ACh
   encapsulation attractive.
Will add text in the draft.

>
> I=E2=80=99m also increasingly concerned by confusing scope and definition=
 of
> specifications.
>
> For example:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd-04#section-3.2
>
> 3.2.  Non-IP Encapsulation of Multipoint BFD
>
>    Non-IP encapsulation for multipoint BFD over p2mp MPLS LSP MUST use
>    Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh) Label (GAL) [RFC5586] at the
>    bottom of the label stack followed by Associated Channel Header
>    (ACH).  Channel Type field in ACH MUST be set to BFD CV [RFC6428].
>
>
> First, there=E2=80=99s no definition for non-IP BFD in RFC 5586 =E2=80=94=
 only in RFC 5885.
>
GIM>> RFC 5586 defined the use of GAL. I think that this reference is
appropriate. I agree that the second reference should be to RFC 5885, not
RFC 6428. Will make the change.

> Second, the specification in RFC 6428 applies to MPLS Transport Profile
> only. NOT for MPLS, and explicitly NOT for P2MP!
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-1
>
>    This document specifies the BFD extension and behavior to satisfy the
>    CC, proactive CV monitoring, and the RDI functional requirements for
>    both co-routed and associated bidirectional LSPs.  Supported
>    encapsulations include Generic Associated Channel Label (GAL) /
>    Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh), Virtual Circuit Connectivity
>    Verification (VCCV), and UDP/IP.  Procedures for unidirectional
>    point-to-point (P2P) and point-to-multipoint (P2MP) LSPs are for
>    further study.
>
>
> So, no, this does not work.
>
> RFC 6428 does not have scope for P2MP.
> And RFC 5586 does not specify anything for BFD. Instead, what needs to be
> cited (appropriately and expanded) is RFC 5885
>
GIM>> RFC 5586 specifies the use of GAL and G-ACh and the reference is used
in this context.

>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-4
>       RFC 5884 - BFD CC in UDP/IP/LSP
>       RFC 5885 - BFD CC in G-ACh
>
GIM>> I'd point that it is for p2p BFD CC, and p2mp BFD uses different from
p2p BFD method to demultiplex BFD control packets.

>       RFC 5085 - UDP/IP in G-ACh
>        MPLS-TP - CC/CV in GAL/G-ACh or G-ACh
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> =E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro
>
> On Oct 13, 2018, at 4:24 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear WG Chairs, et al.,
> as the author of the BFD for Multipoint Networks over Point-to-Multi-Poin=
t
> MPLS LSP (draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd) I would like to ask you to consider
> WG adoption call of the draft. The document addresses non-IP encapsulatio=
n
> of p2mp BFD over MPLS LSP that may be useful if the overhead of IP,
> particularly IPv6, encapsulation is the concern. The base specification o=
f
> BFD for Multipoint Networks is at this time in IESG LC.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>
>

--000000000000e81c810579a0e596
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,<div>thank you for your comment=
s. Please find my notes, answers in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 8:47 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
Hi,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cc BFD WG</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It would be useful to understand the use case motivation or applicabil=
ity of this draft, other than it can be done.</div></div></blockquote><div>=
GIM&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 The motivation can be seen in the following (from another=
 draft that discusses OAM over G-ACh:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 In some</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0environments, the overhead of extra IP/UDP encapsulations m=
ay be</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0considered as overburden and make using more c=
ompact G-ACh</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulation attractive.</div></div><d=
iv>Will add text in the draft.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I=E2=80=99m also increasingly concerned by confusing scope and definit=
ion of specifications.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd-04#s=
ection-3.2" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-mpls=
-p2mp-bfd-04#section-3.2</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3.2.=C2=A0 Non-IP Encapsulation of Multipoint BFD
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Non-IP encapsulation for multipoint BFD over p2mp MPLS LS=
P MUST use</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh) Label (GAL) [RFC5586] =
at the</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0bottom of the label stack followed by Associated Channel =
Header</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(ACH).=C2=A0 Channel Type field in ACH MUST be set to BFD=
 CV [RFC6428].</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-5992720512572016398Apple-interchange-newline">
<br>
</div>
<div>First, there=E2=80=99s no definition for non-IP BFD in RFC 5586 =E2=80=
=94 only in RFC 5885.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; RFC 5586 def=
ined the use of GAL. I think that this reference is appropriate. I agree th=
at the second reference should be to RFC 5885, not RFC 6428. Will make the =
change.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div>Second, the specification in RFC 6428 applies to=C2=A0MPLS Transport P=
rofile only. NOT for MPLS, and explicitly NOT for P2MP!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-1" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-1</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies the BFD extension and behavior to=
 satisfy the</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0CC, proactive CV monitoring, and the RDI functional requi=
rements for</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0both co-routed and associated bidirectional LSPs.=C2=A0 S=
upported</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulations include Generic Associated Channel Label (=
GAL) /</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh), Virtual Circuit Conne=
ctivity</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Verification (VCCV), and UDP/IP.=C2=A0 Procedures for uni=
directional</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0point-to-point (P2P) and point-to-multipoint (P2MP) LSPs =
are for</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0further study.</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-5992720512572016398Apple-interchange-newline">
<br>
</div>
<div>So, no, this does not work.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>RFC 6428 does not have scope for P2MP.</div>
<div>And RFC 5586 does not specify anything for BFD. Instead, what needs to=
 be cited (appropriately and expanded) is RFC 5885</div></div></blockquote>=
<div>GIM&gt;&gt; RFC 5586 specifies the use of GAL and G-ACh and the refere=
nce is used in this context.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-4" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-4</a></div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0RFC 5884 - BFD CC in UDP/IP/LSP
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 5885 - BFD CC in G-ACh=C2=A0</div></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I&#39;d point that it is for p2p BFD CC, and=
 p2mp BFD uses different from p2p BFD method to demultiplex BFD control pac=
kets.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div sty=
le=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 5085 - UDP/IP in G-ACh</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS-TP - CC/CV in GAL/G-ACh or G-ACh</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-5992720512572016398Apple-interchange-newline">
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
Thanks,</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
=E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 13, 2018, at 4:24 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-5992720512572016398Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear WG Chairs, et al.,
<div>as the author of the BFD for Multipoint Networks over Point-to-Multi-P=
oint MPLS LSP (draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd) I would like to ask you to consi=
der WG adoption call of the draft. The document addresses non-IP encapsulat=
ion of p2mp BFD over MPLS
 LSP that may be useful if the overhead of IP, particularly IPv6, encapsula=
tion is the concern. The base specification of BFD for Multipoint Networks =
is at this time in IESG LC.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div></div></div>

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From nobody Sun Nov  4 19:53:53 2018
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From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-ipr@ietf.org>
To: <draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication@ietf.org>
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Subject: IPR Disclosure Ciena Corporation's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication
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Dear Mahesh Jethanandani, Ashesh Mishra, Ankur Saxena, Manav Bhatia:


An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled
"Optimizing BFD Authentication"
(draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication) was submitted to the IETF
Secretariat on  and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual
Property Rights Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3328/). The
title of the IPR disclosure is "Ciena Corporation's Statement about IPR
related to draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication"


Thank you

IETF Secretariat


From nobody Mon Nov  5 07:58:11 2018
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>, "draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand@ietf.org" <draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "bfd-chairs@ietf.org" <bfd-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: The BFD WG has placed draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued"
Thread-Topic: The BFD WG has placed draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued"
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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 15:58:01 +0000
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mpls] MPLS WG adoption call for draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd
Thread-Topic: [mpls] MPLS WG adoption call for draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd
Thread-Index: AQHUcjCnBAZrmoA7/EOd5Vk0epnVbaVBxIEA
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 17:11:05 +0000
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References: <CA+RyBmVDvb6t3rh3sZUHrsApfJRb9A8GCLxPCe9b=tcvZz6J3w@mail.gmail.com> <15CB10A6-6AF4-460F-A71D-56F28D9D7784@cisco.com> <CA+RyBmVbWkDK3o2ZREv2jat++O3hNWBA4_Yn-ynyDdjpG+GjXw@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] MPLS WG adoption call for draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
References: <CA+RyBmVDvb6t3rh3sZUHrsApfJRb9A8GCLxPCe9b=tcvZz6J3w@mail.gmail.com> <15CB10A6-6AF4-460F-A71D-56F28D9D7784@cisco.com> <CA+RyBmVbWkDK3o2ZREv2jat++O3hNWBA4_Yn-ynyDdjpG+GjXw@mail.gmail.com> <5BFD9FF7-DBF8-48E6-BF45-1D29AFB90034@cisco.com>
From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 11:49:54 +0700
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Carlos,

Since the a wg adoption poll I read your comments as that we are doing
progress, and that we can address the rest during the wg process,
correct?

/Loa

On 2018-11-06 00:11, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote:
> Hi Greg,
> 
> Many thanks for your response and suggestions! Please see inline.
> 
>> On Nov 2, 2018, at 6:13 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Carlos,
>> thank you for your comments. Please find my notes, answers in-line 
>> tagged GIM>>.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 8:47 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) 
>> <cpignata@cisco.com <mailto:cpignata@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Hi,
>>
>>     Cc BFD WG
>>
>>     It would be useful to understand the use case motivation or
>>     applicability of this draft, other than it can be done.
>>
>> GIM>>  The motivation can be seen in the following (from another draft 
>> that discusses OAM over G-ACh:
>>   In some
>>    environments, the overhead of extra IP/UDP encapsulations may be
>>    considered as overburden and make using more compact G-ACh
>>    encapsulation attractive.
>> Will add text in the draft.
> 
> CMP: Thank you very much. This is a good start, although it would be 
> useful to add precision into which environments specifically, and the 
> burden comparison between IP/UDP and G-ACh.
> 
>>
>>     I’m also increasingly concerned by confusing scope and definition
>>     of specifications.
>>
>>     For example:
>>
>>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd-04#section-3.2
>>
>>     3.2.  Non-IP Encapsulation of Multipoint BFD
>>
>>        Non-IP encapsulation for multipoint BFD over p2mp MPLS LSP MUST use
>>        Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh) Label (GAL) [RFC5586] at the
>>        bottom of the label stack followed by Associated Channel Header
>>        (ACH).  Channel Type field in ACH MUST be set to BFD CV [RFC6428].
>>
>>
>>     First, there’s no definition for non-IP BFD in RFC 5586 — only in
>>     RFC 5885.
>>
>> GIM>> RFC 5586 defined the use of GAL. I think that this reference is 
>> appropriate. I agree that the second reference should be to RFC 5885, 
>> not RFC 6428. Will make the change.
> 
> CMP: Thank you. However, RFC 5885 is in the context of PW VCCV — is 
> there a missing definition in the specs for BFD over G-ACh generically?
> 
>>     Second, the specification in RFC 6428 applies to MPLS Transport
>>     Profile only. NOT for MPLS, and explicitly NOT for P2MP!
>>
>>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-1
>>
>>        This document specifies the BFD extension and behavior to
>>     satisfy the
>>        CC, proactive CV monitoring, and the RDI functional
>>     requirements for
>>        both co-routed and associated bidirectional LSPs.  Supported
>>        encapsulations include Generic Associated Channel Label (GAL) /
>>        Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh), Virtual Circuit Connectivity
>>        Verification (VCCV), and UDP/IP.  Procedures for unidirectional
>>        point-to-point (P2P) and point-to-multipoint (P2MP) LSPs are for
>>        further study.
>>
>>
>>     So, no, this does not work.
>>
>>     RFC 6428 does not have scope for P2MP.
>>     And RFC 5586 does not specify anything for BFD. Instead, what
>>     needs to be cited (appropriately and expanded) is RFC 5885
>>
>> GIM>> RFC 5586 specifies the use of GAL and G-ACh and the reference is 
>> used in this context.
> 
> CMP: This is the same comment as above.
> 
>>
>>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-4
>>           RFC 5884 - BFD CC in UDP/IP/LSP
>>           RFC 5885 - BFD CC in G-ACh
>>
>> GIM>> I'd point that it is for p2p BFD CC, and p2mp BFD uses different 
>> from p2p BFD method to demultiplex BFD control packets.
> 
> 
> CMP: Apologies I did not understand this response.
> 
> CMP: Thanks again for considering the comment to improve the document.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Carlos.
> 
> 
>>           RFC 5085 - UDP/IP in G-ACh
>>            MPLS-TP - CC/CV in GAL/G-ACh or G-ACh
>>
>>
>>
>>     Thanks,
>>
>>     — Carlos Pignataro
>>
>>>     On Oct 13, 2018, at 4:24 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Dear WG Chairs, et al.,
>>>     as the author of the BFD for Multipoint Networks over
>>>     Point-to-Multi-Point MPLS LSP (draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd) I
>>>     would like to ask you to consider WG adoption call of the draft.
>>>     The document addresses non-IP encapsulation of p2mp BFD over MPLS
>>>     LSP that may be useful if the overhead of IP, particularly IPv6,
>>>     encapsulation is the concern. The base specification of BFD for
>>>     Multipoint Networks is at this time in IESG LC.
>>>
>>>     Regards,
>>>     Greg
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     mpls mailing list
>>>     mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>
>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
> 

-- 


Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 17:18:30 +0700
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmVbRw3BsE8OdSmHcfasBi0te9BXvVC+8Cq9Zj-Asqc08Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mpls] MPLS WG adoption call for draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
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--00000000000059e7470579fc53d8
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Hi Carlos,
thank you for your consideration of my responses. Glad that we're
converging. Please find additional notes in-line tagged GIM2>>.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 12:11 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> Many thanks for your response and suggestions! Please see inline.
>
> On Nov 2, 2018, at 6:13 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Carlos,
> thank you for your comments. Please find my notes, answers in-line tagged
> GIM>>.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 8:47 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Cc BFD WG
>>
>> It would be useful to understand the use case motivation or applicabilit=
y
>> of this draft, other than it can be done.
>>
> GIM>>  The motivation can be seen in the following (from another draft
> that discusses OAM over G-ACh:
>   In some
>    environments, the overhead of extra IP/UDP encapsulations may be
>    considered as overburden and make using more compact G-ACh
>    encapsulation attractive.
> Will add text in the draft.
>
>
> CMP: Thank you very much. This is a good start, although it would be
> useful to add precision into which environments specifically, and the
> burden comparison between IP/UDP and G-ACh.
>
GIM2>> Thank you for agreeing to this, and I've added the text in the
working verion. Will work on improving the text in the meantime.

>
>
>> I=E2=80=99m also increasingly concerned by confusing scope and definitio=
n of
>> specifications.
>>
>> For example:
>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd-04#section-3.2
>>
>> 3.2.  Non-IP Encapsulation of Multipoint BFD
>>
>>    Non-IP encapsulation for multipoint BFD over p2mp MPLS LSP MUST use
>>    Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh) Label (GAL) [RFC5586] at the
>>    bottom of the label stack followed by Associated Channel Header
>>    (ACH).  Channel Type field in ACH MUST be set to BFD CV [RFC6428].
>>
>>
>> First, there=E2=80=99s no definition for non-IP BFD in RFC 5586 =E2=80=
=94 only in RFC
>> 5885.
>>
> GIM>> RFC 5586 defined the use of GAL. I think that this reference is
> appropriate. I agree that the second reference should be to RFC 5885, not
> RFC 6428. Will make the change.
>
>
> CMP: Thank you. However, RFC 5885 is in the context of PW VCCV =E2=80=94 =
is there
> a missing definition in the specs for BFD over G-ACh generically?
>
GIM2>> I think that the following quote from RFC 5586 set the relationship
between Channel Type field in PW ACH and G-ACh:
    Channel Types for the Associated Channel Header are allocated from
    the IANA "PW Associated Channel Type" registry [RFC4446].
I understand that that there's one and only one registry and channel values
are equally applicable to PW ACH and G-ACh. And full name of the registry
now is MPLS Generalized Associated Channel (G-ACh) Types (including
Pseudowire Associated Channel Types).

>
> Second, the specification in RFC 6428 applies to MPLS Transport Profile
>> only. NOT for MPLS, and explicitly NOT for P2MP!
>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-1
>>
>>    This document specifies the BFD extension and behavior to satisfy the
>>    CC, proactive CV monitoring, and the RDI functional requirements for
>>    both co-routed and associated bidirectional LSPs.  Supported
>>    encapsulations include Generic Associated Channel Label (GAL) /
>>    Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh), Virtual Circuit Connectivity
>>    Verification (VCCV), and UDP/IP.  Procedures for unidirectional
>>    point-to-point (P2P) and point-to-multipoint (P2MP) LSPs are for
>>    further study.
>>
>>
>> So, no, this does not work.
>>
>> RFC 6428 does not have scope for P2MP.
>> And RFC 5586 does not specify anything for BFD. Instead, what needs to b=
e
>> cited (appropriately and expanded) is RFC 5885
>>
> GIM>> RFC 5586 specifies the use of GAL and G-ACh and the reference is
> used in this context.
>
>
> CMP: This is the same comment as above.
>
>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-4
>>       RFC 5884 - BFD CC in UDP/IP/LSP
>>       RFC 5885 - BFD CC in G-ACh
>>
> GIM>> I'd point that it is for p2p BFD CC, and p2mp BFD uses different
> from p2p BFD method to demultiplex BFD control packets.
>
>
>
> CMP: Apologies I did not understand this response.
>
GIM2>> Apologies for sending partial explanation. P2MP BFD cannot use Your
Discriminator field to demultiplex the recieved BFD control packet. BFD for
Multipoint Networks defines the special procedure that requires the use of
Source ID. When the encapsulation of BFD control packet does not include
IP/UDP header, the Source ID can be provided as Source MEP-ID TLV in
MPLS-TP BFD CV. This draft proposes the new IP Address TLV for that. Thus I
have to correct myself and re-state the earlier text in the draft that the
value in the Channel Type filed of G-ACh must be MPLS-TP CV (0x0023).

>
> CMP: Thanks again for considering the comment to improve the document.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carlos.
>
>
>       RFC 5085 - UDP/IP in G-ACh
>>        MPLS-TP - CC/CV in GAL/G-ACh or G-ACh
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2018, at 4:24 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear WG Chairs, et al.,
>> as the author of the BFD for Multipoint Networks over
>> Point-to-Multi-Point MPLS LSP (draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd) I would like =
to
>> ask you to consider WG adoption call of the draft. The document addresse=
s
>> non-IP encapsulation of p2mp BFD over MPLS LSP that may be useful if the
>> overhead of IP, particularly IPv6, encapsulation is the concern. The bas=
e
>> specification of BFD for Multipoint Networks is at this time in IESG LC.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list
>> mpls@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>
>>
>

--00000000000059e7470579fc53d8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,<div>thank you=
 for your consideration of my responses. Glad that we&#39;re converging. Pl=
ease find additional notes in-line tagged GIM2&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div=
><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 12:11 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
Hi Greg,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Many thanks for your response and suggestions! Please see inline.</div=
>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Nov 2, 2018, at 6:13 AM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimir=
sky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_2939641602688262668Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,
<div>thank you for your comments. Please find my notes, answers in-line tag=
ged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg<br>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 8:47 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata=
) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisc=
o.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Hi,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cc BFD WG</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It would be useful to understand the use case motivation or applicabil=
ity of this draft, other than it can be done.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>GIM&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 The motivation can be seen in the following (from an=
other draft that discusses OAM over G-ACh:</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0 In some</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0environments, the overhead of extra IP/UDP encapsulations=
 may be</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0considered as overburden and make using more compact G-AC=
h</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulation attractive.</div>
</div>
<div>Will add text in the draft.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: Thank you very much. This is a good start, although it would be u=
seful to add precision into which environments specifically, and the burden=
 comparison between IP/UDP and G-ACh.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><=
div>GIM2&gt;&gt; Thank you for agreeing to this, and I&#39;ve added the tex=
t in the working verion. Will work on improving the text in the meantime.</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflo=
w-wrap: break-word;"><div><div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I=E2=80=99m also increasingly concerned by confusing scope and definit=
ion of specifications.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd-04#s=
ection-3.2" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-mpls=
-p2mp-bfd-04#section-3.2</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3.2.=C2=A0 Non-IP Encapsulation of Multipoint BFD
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Non-IP encapsulation for multipoint BFD over p2mp MPLS LS=
P MUST use</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh) Label (GAL) [RFC5586] =
at the</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0bottom of the label stack followed by Associated Channel =
Header</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(ACH).=C2=A0 Channel Type field in ACH MUST be set to BFD=
 CV [RFC6428].</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_2939641602688262668gmail-m_-5992720512572016398Apple-i=
nterchange-newline">
<br>
</div>
<div>First, there=E2=80=99s no definition for non-IP BFD in RFC 5586 =E2=80=
=94 only in RFC 5885.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>GIM&gt;&gt; RFC 5586 defined the use of GAL. I think that this referen=
ce is appropriate. I agree that the second reference should be to RFC 5885,=
 not RFC 6428. Will make the change.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: Thank you. However, RFC 5885 is in the context of PW VCCV =E2=80=
=94 is there a missing definition in the specs for BFD over G-ACh generical=
ly?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; I think that the =
following quote from RFC 5586 set the relationship between Channel Type fie=
ld in PW ACH and G-ACh:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Channel Types for the Assoc=
iated Channel Header are allocated from</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IANA &q=
uot;PW Associated Channel Type&quot; registry [RFC4446].=C2=A0</div><div>I =
understand that that there&#39;s one and only one registry and channel valu=
es are equally applicable to PW ACH and G-ACh. And full name of the registr=
y now is=C2=A0MPLS Generalized Associated Channel (G-ACh) Types (including =
Pseudowire Associated Channel Types).</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Second, the specification in RFC 6428 applies to=C2=A0MPLS Transport P=
rofile only. NOT for MPLS, and explicitly NOT for P2MP!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-1" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-1</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies the BFD extension and behavior to=
 satisfy the</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0CC, proactive CV monitoring, and the RDI functional requi=
rements for</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0both co-routed and associated bidirectional LSPs.=C2=A0 S=
upported</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulations include Generic Associated Channel Label (=
GAL) /</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh), Virtual Circuit Conne=
ctivity</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Verification (VCCV), and UDP/IP.=C2=A0 Procedures for uni=
directional</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0point-to-point (P2P) and point-to-multipoint (P2MP) LSPs =
are for</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0further study.</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_2939641602688262668gmail-m_-5992720512572016398Apple-i=
nterchange-newline">
<br>
</div>
<div>So, no, this does not work.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>RFC 6428 does not have scope for P2MP.</div>
<div>And RFC 5586 does not specify anything for BFD. Instead, what needs to=
 be cited (appropriately and expanded) is RFC 5885</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>GIM&gt;&gt; RFC 5586 specifies the use of GAL and G-ACh and the refere=
nce is used in this context.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: This is the same comment as above.</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-4" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-4</a></div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0RFC 5884 - BFD CC in UDP/IP/LSP
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 5885 - BFD CC in G-ACh=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>GIM&gt;&gt; I&#39;d point that it is for p2p BFD CC, and p2mp BFD uses=
 different from p2p BFD method to demultiplex BFD control packets.=C2=A0</d=
iv>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
CMP: Apologies I did not understand this response.</div></div></div></block=
quote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; Apologies for sending partial explanation. P2MP BFD=
 cannot use Your Discriminator field to demultiplex the recieved BFD contro=
l packet. BFD for Multipoint Networks defines the special procedure that re=
quires the use of Source ID. When the encapsulation of BFD control packet d=
oes not include IP/UDP header, the Source ID can be provided as Source MEP-=
ID TLV in MPLS-TP BFD CV. This draft proposes the new IP Address TLV for th=
at. Thus I have to correct myself and re-state the earlier text in the draf=
t that the value in the Channel Type filed of G-ACh must be MPLS-TP CV (0x0=
023).</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"=
overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: Thanks again for considering the comment to improve the document.=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Carlos.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 5085 - UDP/IP in G-ACh</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS-TP - CC/CV in GAL/G-ACh or G-ACh</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_2939641602688262668gmail-m_-5992720512572016398Apple-i=
nterchange-newline">
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t=
ext-decoration:none">
Thanks,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t=
ext-decoration:none">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t=
ext-decoration:none">
=E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 13, 2018, at 4:24 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_2939641602688262668gmail-m_-5992720512572016398Apple-i=
nterchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear WG Chairs, et al.,
<div>as the author of the BFD for Multipoint Networks over Point-to-Multi-P=
oint MPLS LSP (draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd) I would like to ask you to consi=
der WG adoption call of the draft. The document addresses non-IP encapsulat=
ion of p2mp BFD over MPLS
 LSP that may be useful if the overhead of IP, particularly IPv6, encapsula=
tion is the concern. The base specification of BFD for Multipoint Networks =
is at this time in IESG LC.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div></div></div>

--00000000000059e7470579fc53d8--


From nobody Wed Nov  7 11:47:04 2018
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:46:14 -0500
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org
Subject: BFD Working Group calls ending November 9
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Working Group,

As a reminder, calls are ongoing for the following ending on November 9:

Working Group Last Call:
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan

Adoption:
draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand
draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted

In particular, please supply your feedback on the last call above.

-- Jeff


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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: "draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org" <draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org>
CC: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02
Thread-Topic: Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02
Thread-Index: AQHUdxbNv+kW2bBAtEqB4REYCklGMKVFV26A
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:20:58 +0000
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mpls] MPLS WG adoption call for draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd
Thread-Topic: [mpls] MPLS WG adoption call for draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd
Thread-Index: AQHUcjCnBAZrmoA7/EOd5Vk0epnVbaVBxIEAgAEfEACAAsmgAA==
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:52:43 +0000
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References: <CE547BEC-C580-4CC6-8B9B-CB22EE07E948@cisco.com> <201811081227199234176@zte.com.cn> <CA+RyBmV54zYMpq-+H66CxC_8XriAZmYt02tK3y_oo_mU1hj6-A@mail.gmail.com>
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:20:43 +0700
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmWay60qZWifDw9LSEK_ufap64GJ_7YAB+r33DSGPmDx0A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02
To: hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn
Cc: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org,  BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Apologies for the duplicate.
Now with the corrected BFD WG alias.

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:18 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Reshad,
> thank you for taking the time to review and sharing your comments, much
> appreciated. I'll add to answers by Fangwei, please find them in-line
> tagged GIM>>.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 11:27 AM <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> wrote:
>
>> Hi, Rahman
>>
>> Thanks for your comments.
>>
>> Plese see inline marked with[hfw].
>>
>>
>> >Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> >I just took a quick look at the draft:
>>
>> >1.Section 1, 2nd paragraph mentions =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6detect unicast fa=
ilures..=E2=80=9D, I
>> believe this  should be unidirectional?
>>
>> [hfw] Agree, the BFD multipoint document only defines the unidirectional
>> deteck from header to one or more tails.
>>
> GIM>> Great catch, thank you. Will fix in the next version.
>
>> >2.Section 1, 3rd paragraph says that active-tail is for further study.
>> So when a tail detects a failure, how will the head be notified?  If the
>> head does not have to be notified, what action is taken?
>>
>> [hfw] Ok. Actually, we are considering the active-tails solution. It
>>  will be added in the next version.
>>
> GIM>> Our plan is to use BFD for Multipoint Network with Active Tail
> specfication as the base for this mode. Since tails in p2mp BFD are in th=
e
> Demand mode the head only can query all tail and/or the particular tail
> using the Poll sequence (referred as multicast and unicast Poll). Dependi=
ng
> on the type of the failure, the head may recieve or not the BFD control
> message with Final flag set. Absence of the response in combination with
> the content of the Diag field must be used to draw the conclusion on
> liveleness of the path from the head to the particular tail. From here th=
e
> head may use BIER Ping to localize the defect and switch to using the
> alternative path through the BIER domain by using different transient BFR=
s.
>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Fangwei.
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*ReshadRahman(rrahman) <rrahman@cis=
co.com>
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org <draft-=
hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org>;
>> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*bier@ietf.org <bier@ietf.org>;bfd@=
ietf.org <bfd@ietf.org>;
>> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2018=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8808=E6=97=A5 11:56
>> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02*
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I just took a quick look at the draft:
>>
>>    1.
>>
>>    Section 1, 2nd paragraph mentions =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6detect unicast fa=
ilures..=E2=80=9D, I
>>    believe this  should be unidirectional?
>>    2.
>>
>>    Section 1, 3rd paragraph says that active-tail is for further study.
>>    So when a tail detects a failure, how will the head be notified?  If =
the
>>    head does not have to be notified, what action is taken?
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Reshad.
>>
>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Apologies for the duplicate.<div>Now with the corrected BF=
D WG alias.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On T=
hu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:18 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@g=
mail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Reshad,<div>thank you for taking the time=
 to review and sharing your=C2=A0comments, much appreciated. I&#39;ll add t=
o answers by Fangwei, please find them in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 11:27 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hu=
.fangwei@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"m_-50264563651111440=
17m_3297271429344295079zcontentRow"><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:=
arial">Hi, Rahman</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Thanks f=
or your comments.</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Plese se=
e inline marked with[hfw].</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"=
><br></p><p style=3D"line-height:21px;white-space:normal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:15px">&gt;Hi,</span></p><p style=3D"line-height:21px;white-space:no=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size:15px">=C2=A0</span></p><p style=3D"line-heig=
ht:21px;white-space:normal"><span style=3D"font-size:15px">&gt;I just took =
a quick look at the draft:</span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:15px">&gt;=
1.Section 1, 2<sup>nd</sup>=C2=A0paragraph mentions =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6</spa=
n>detect unicast failures..=E2=80=9D, I believe this =C2=A0should be unidir=
ectional?</p><p>[hfw] Agree, the BFD multipoint document only defines the u=
nidirectional deteck from header to one or more tails.</p></div></blockquot=
e><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Great catch, thank you. Will fix in the next version.=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"m_-502645636511114401=
7m_3297271429344295079zcontentRow"><p><span style=3D"font-size:15px">&gt;2.=
Section 1, 3<sup>rd</sup>=C2=A0paragraph says that active-tail is for furth=
er study. So when a tail detects a failure, how will the head be notified?=
=C2=A0 If the head does not have to be notified, what action is taken?</spa=
n></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">[hfw] Ok. Actually, we =
are considering the active-tails solution. It =C2=A0will be added in the ne=
xt version.</p></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Our plan is to use BFD f=
or Multipoint Network with Active Tail specfication as the base for this mo=
de. Since tails in p2mp BFD are in the Demand mode the head only can query =
all tail and/or the particular tail using the Poll sequence (referred as mu=
lticast and unicast Poll). Depending on the type of the failure, the head m=
ay recieve or not the BFD control message with Final flag set. Absence of t=
he response in combination with the content of the Diag field must be used =
to draw the conclusion on liveleness of the path from the head to the parti=
cular tail. From here the head may use BIER Ping to localize the defect and=
 switch to using the alternative path through the BIER domain by using diff=
erent transient BFRs.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"m_-=
5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079zcontentRow"><p style=3D"font-size:=
14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:aria=
l">Regards</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Fangwei.</p><di=
v><div class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079zhistoryRow" sty=
le=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079=
zwriteHistoryContainer"><div class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344=
295079control-group m_-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079zhistoryPane=
l"><div class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079zhistoryHeader"=
 style=3D"padding:8px;background-color:#f5f6f8"><div><strong>=E5=8F=91=E4=
=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_329=
7271429344295079zreadUserName">ReshadRahman(rrahman) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
rrahman@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rrahman@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span></div>=
<div><strong>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_=
-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079zreadUserName" style=3D"display:in=
line"><a href=3D"mailto:draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span></div><div><st=
rong>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_-5026456=
365111144017m_3297271429344295079zreadUserName" style=3D"display:inline"><a=
 href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span=
><span class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079zreadUserName" s=
tyle=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mailto:bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">b=
fd@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bfd@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</st=
rong><span>2018=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8808=E6=97=A5 11:56</span></div><div><stro=
ng>=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_-5026456365111144=
017m_3297271429344295079zreadTitle"><strong>Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-0=
2</strong></span></div></div><div class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_32972714=
29344295079zhistoryContent"><div><div class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_3297=
271429344295079WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"=
>I just took a quick look at the draft:<u></u><u></u></span></p><ol style=
=3D"margin-top:0cm" start=3D"1" type=3D"1" class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m=
_3297271429344295079list-paddingleft-2"><li><p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Section 1, 2<sup>nd</sup> paragraph mentions =E2=80=
=9C=E2=80=A6</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">detect unicas=
t failures..=E2=80=9D, I believe this =C2=A0should be unidirectional?</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p><=
/li><li><p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Section 1, 3<sup=
>rd</sup> paragraph says that active-tail is for further study. So when a t=
ail detects a failure, how will the head be notified?=C2=A0 If the head doe=
s not have to be notified, what action is taken?<u></u><u></u></span></p></=
li></ol><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Reshad.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p><br></p></div=
></blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000fd92e3057a206565--


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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>
CC: "draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org" <draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02
Thread-Topic: Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02
Thread-Index: AQHUdxbNv+kW2bBAtEqB4REYCklGMKVFrROAgAAOSYD//61fAA==
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:22:45 +0000
Message-ID: <F349A74B-663F-49CB-907B-1CC00FEFBFA4@cisco.com>
References: <CE547BEC-C580-4CC6-8B9B-CB22EE07E948@cisco.com> <201811081227199234176@zte.com.cn> <CA+RyBmV54zYMpq-+H66CxC_8XriAZmYt02tK3y_oo_mU1hj6-A@mail.gmail.com>
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From nobody Thu Nov  8 00:33:44 2018
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Optimizing BFD Authentication
        Authors         : Mahesh Jethanandani
                          Ashesh Mishra
                          Ankur Saxena
                          Manav Bhatia
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-07.txt
	Pages           : 7
	Date            : 2018-11-08

Abstract:
   This document describes an optimization to BFD Authentication as
   described in Section 6.7 of BFD RFC5880.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-07
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-07


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Hi Jeff,

Version -07 of the draft addresses this comment. Thanks.

> On Oct 30, 2018, at 12:33 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani =
<mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Jeff,
>=20
>> On Oct 29, 2018, at 9:10 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> Mahesh,
>>=20
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 09:24:59PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
>>> thank you for your quick response. The comment regarding the state =
change,
>>> as I understand from the minutes, came from Jeff.
>>> Yes, the question was about the periodic authentication in Up state. =
I
>>> believe that at the meeting WG arrived at a very good solution and =
we've
>>> agreed to make the appropriate changes in the document. I don't =
think that
>>> the current version reflects the WG decision that in Up state =
authenticated
>>> BFD control packets are transmitted periodically in sets of not less =
than
>>> Detect Multiplier.
>>=20
>> I think the text is very close to what we'd likely want.  Here's the =
text in
>> the current draft:
>>=20
>> :    Most frames transmitted on a BFD session are BFD CC UP frames.
>> :    Authenticating a small subset of these frames, for example, a =
detect
>> :    multiplier number of packets per configured period, =
significantly
>> :    reduces the computational demand for the system while =
maintaining
>> :    security of the session across the configured authentication =
periods.
>>=20
>> Given BFD procedures, I believe we'd normally want to transmit at =
*least*
>> Detect Multiplier number of packets to ensure that the remote site =
has seen it.
>>=20
>> How about the following text?
>>=20
>> Most frames transmitted on a BFD session are BFD CC UP frames.
>> Authenticating a small subset of these frames, significantly
>> reduces the computational demand for the system while maintaining
>> security of the session across the configured authentication periods.
>> A minimum of Detect Multiplier packets MUST be transmitted per =
configured
>> periodic authentication interval.  This ensures that the BFD session =
should
>> see at least one authenticated packet during that interval.
>=20
> Ok. Will update and post once the submission window opens up.
>=20
>>=20
>> -- Jeff
>=20
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>
Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com




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charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Jeff,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Version -07 of =
the draft addresses this comment. Thanks.<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct =
30, 2018, at 12:33 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Hi Jeff,</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 29, 2018, at 9:10 AM, Jeffrey Haas &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org" class=3D"">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Mahesh,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 09:24:59PM -0700, Greg Mirsky =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">thank you for =
your quick response. The comment regarding the state change,<br =
class=3D"">as I understand from the minutes, came from Jeff.<br =
class=3D"">Yes, the question was about the periodic authentication in Up =
state. I<br class=3D"">believe that at the meeting WG arrived at a very =
good solution and we've<br class=3D"">agreed to make the appropriate =
changes in the document. I don't think that<br class=3D"">the current =
version reflects the WG decision that in Up state authenticated<br =
class=3D"">BFD control packets are transmitted periodically in sets of =
not less than<br class=3D"">Detect Multiplier.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I think the text is very close to =
what we'd likely want. &nbsp;Here's the text in<br class=3D"">the =
current draft:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Most =
frames transmitted on a BFD session are BFD CC UP frames.<br class=3D"">: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Authenticating a small subset of these frames, for =
example, a detect<br class=3D"">: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;multiplier number of =
packets per configured period, significantly<br class=3D"">: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;reduces the computational demand for the system while =
maintaining<br class=3D"">: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;security of the session =
across the configured authentication periods.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Given BFD procedures, I believe we'd normally want to =
transmit at *least*<br class=3D"">Detect Multiplier number of packets to =
ensure that the remote site has seen it.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">How =
about the following text?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Most frames =
transmitted on a BFD session are BFD CC UP frames.<br =
class=3D"">Authenticating a small subset of these frames, =
significantly<br class=3D"">reduces the computational demand for the =
system while maintaining<br class=3D"">security of the session across =
the configured authentication periods.<br class=3D"">A minimum of Detect =
Multiplier packets MUST be transmitted per configured<br =
class=3D"">periodic authentication interval. &nbsp;This ensures that the =
BFD session should<br class=3D"">see at least one authenticated packet =
during that interval.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color:=
 rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Ok. Will update and post once the submission window opens =
up.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">-- Jeff<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_7FA1C00A-862E-41A0-9DFE-644D9DADA2DC--


From nobody Thu Nov  8 00:52:21 2018
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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org
Subject: BFD WG status
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Working Group,

As is our custom, the BFD wiki has been updated with current status of the
group and known documents.  You are encouraged to review it.

https://trac.ietf.org/trac/bfd/wiki

-- Jeff & Reshad


From nobody Thu Nov  8 00:59:07 2018
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The BFD WG has placed draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited in state
Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Jeffrey Haas)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited/

Comment:
WG adoption call ending 2018-11-09


From nobody Thu Nov  8 01:58:33 2018
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--000000000000a96d41057a2446bd
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Here are my comments.

Thanks,
Anoop

==

Philosophical

Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard for
running BFD on it?  Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is the
official WG selection?  Is that going to be a separate document?

Technical

Section 1:

This part needs to be rewritten:
>>>
The individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network. The VXLAN segments/overlays are
overlaid on top of Layer 3 network. A VM can communicate with another VM
only if they are on the same VXLAN segment.
>>>
It's hard to parse and, given IRB, the last sentence above is wrong.

Section 3:
>>>
 Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
may not support L3.
>>>
Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP
addresses/configuration?

>>>
Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize faults though it requires
additional consideration.
>>>
What are the additional considerations?

Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would
like to know more about service nodes.

Section 4
>>>
Separate BFD sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2)
for monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).
>>>
IMO, the document should mention that this could lead to scaling issues
given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNIs.  Additionally, we
should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not even exist on the
destination VTEP.  Finally, what is the benefit of doing this?  There may
be certain corner cases where it's useful (vs a single BFD session between
the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be good to explain what those are.

Sections 5.1 and 6.1

In 5.1 we have
>>>
The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the
following format:
... Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP. Destination IP: IP
address of the terminating VTEP.
>>>

In 6.1 we have
>>>

Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF

packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[RFC5880
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880>].

*For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified*

*using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN*

*encapsulated packet.*


>>>
How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as specified
in 5.1?

Editorial

- Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.
- Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that
will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.

Section 1
>>>
"Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348>]. provides an encapsulation scheme
that allows virtual machines (VMs) to communicate in a data center network.
>>>
This is not accurate.  VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay to decouple
the address space of the attached hosts from that of the network.

Section 7

VTEP's -> VTEPs

--000000000000a96d41057a2446bd
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Here are my comments.</div><div><br></div><div>Th=
anks,</div><div>Anoop</div><div><br></div><div>=3D=3D</div><div><br></div><=
div>Philosophical</div><div><br></div><div>Since VXLAN is not an IETF stand=
ard, should we be defining a standard for running BFD on it?=C2=A0 Should w=
e define BFD over Geneve instead which is the official WG selection?=C2=A0 =
Is that going to be a separate document?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Techn=
ical</div><div><br></div><div>Section 1:</div><div><br></div><div>This part=
 needs to be rewritten:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre">Th=
e
individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.

A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment. </span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>It&#39;s hard t=
o parse and, given IRB, the last sentence above is wrong.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Section 3:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre">M=
ost deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</span></div><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;whi=
te-space:pre">may not support L3.</span><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>Are you=
 suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP addresses/configuration?</=
div><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0=
,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre">Having a hie=
rarchical OAM model helps localize
faults though it requires additional consideration.</span><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>What are the additional considerations?</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reade=
r would like to know more about service nodes.</div><div><br></div><div>Sec=
tion 4</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon=
t-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre">Separate BFD
sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2) for
monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).</span><br></div><di=
v>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>IMO, the document should mention that this could l=
ead to scaling issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNI=
s.=C2=A0 Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not=
 even exist on the destination VTEP.=C2=A0 Finally, what is the benefit of =
doing this?=C2=A0 There may be certain corner cases where it&#39;s useful (=
vs a single BFD session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be goo=
d to explain what those are.</div><div><br></div><div>Sections 5.1 and 6.1<=
/div><div><br></div><div>In 5.1 we have</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;whi=
te-space:pre">The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the</span></=
div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13=
.3333px;white-space:pre">following format:</span><br class=3D"gmail-Apple-i=
nterchange-newline"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;f=
ont-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre">...
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</span><br class=3D"gmai=
l-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>In 6.1 we have=C2=A0</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><pre class=3D"gmai=
l-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;di=
splay:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Since multiple BFD s=
essions may be running between two
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF</pre><p=
re class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;marg=
in-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">pack=
ets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880" title=3D"&quot;Bidirectional Forwarding D=
etection (BFD)&quot;">RFC5880</a>].  </pre></div><div><pre class=3D"gmail-n=
ewpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;displ=
ay:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>For such packets, th=
e BFD session MUST be identified</b></pre></div><div><pre class=3D"gmail-ne=
wpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;displa=
y:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>using the inner heade=
rs, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</b></pre></div=
><div><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,=
0)"><b>encapsulated packet.</b></pre><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=
How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as specified i=
n 5.1?</div><div><br></div><div>Editorial</div><div><br></div><div>- Termin=
ology section should be renamed to acronyms.</div><div>- Document would ben=
efit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that will happen once it ge=
ts to the RFC editor.</div><div><br></div><div>Section 1</div><div>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-s=
ize:13.3333px;white-space:pre">&quot;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&=
quot; (VXLAN) [</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348" title=
=3D"&quot;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network (VXLAN): A Framework for Ov=
erlaying Virtualized Layer 2 Networks over Layer 3 Networks&quot;" style=3D=
"font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre">RFC7348</a><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white=
-space:pre">].  provides
an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
communicate in a data center network.</span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</di=
v><div>This is not accurate.=C2=A0 VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay=
 to decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the netwo=
rk.</div><div><br></div><div>Section 7</div><div><br></div><div><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:=
pre">VTEP&#39;s -&gt; VTEPs</span><br></div><div><br></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:50:27 +0700
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Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
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--000000000000f2c156057a3193d2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi Anoop,
thank you for your thorough review and the comments. I'm traveling over the
weekend and will respond in details later next week.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 4:58 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu> wrote:

>
> Here are my comments.
>
> Thanks,
> Anoop
>
> ==
>
> Philosophical
>
> Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard for
> running BFD on it?  Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is the
> official WG selection?  Is that going to be a separate document?
>
> Technical
>
> Section 1:
>
> This part needs to be rewritten:
> >>>
> The individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
> could be in a single Layer 2 network. The VXLAN segments/overlays are
> overlaid on top of Layer 3 network. A VM can communicate with another VM
> only if they are on the same VXLAN segment.
> >>>
> It's hard to parse and, given IRB, the last sentence above is wrong.
>
> Section 3:
> >>>
>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
> may not support L3.
> >>>
> Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP
> addresses/configuration?
>
> >>>
> Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize faults though it requires
> additional consideration.
> >>>
> What are the additional considerations?
>
> Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would
> like to know more about service nodes.
>
> Section 4
> >>>
> Separate BFD sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2)
> for monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).
> >>>
> IMO, the document should mention that this could lead to scaling issues
> given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNIs.  Additionally, we
> should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not even exist on the
> destination VTEP.  Finally, what is the benefit of doing this?  There may
> be certain corner cases where it's useful (vs a single BFD session between
> the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be good to explain what those are.
>
> Sections 5.1 and 6.1
>
> In 5.1 we have
> >>>
> The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the
> following format:
> ... Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP. Destination IP: IP
> address of the terminating VTEP.
> >>>
>
> In 6.1 we have
> >>>
>
> Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
> VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF
>
> packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
> packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[RFC5880 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880>].
>
> *For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified*
>
> *using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
> present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN*
>
> *encapsulated packet.*
>
>
> >>>
> How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as specified
> in 5.1?
>
> Editorial
>
> - Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.
> - Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that
> will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.
>
> Section 1
> >>>
> "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348>]. provides an encapsulation scheme
> that allows virtual machines (VMs) to communicate in a data center network.
> >>>
> This is not accurate.  VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay to
> decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the network.
>
> Section 7
>
> VTEP's -> VTEPs
>
>

--000000000000f2c156057a3193d2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for your thorough review and the c=
omments. I&#39;m traveling over the weekend and will respond in details lat=
er next week.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 4:58 =
PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu">anoop@alumni=
.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br><div>Here are my comments.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</d=
iv><div>Anoop</div><div><br></div><div>=3D=3D</div><div><br></div><div>Phil=
osophical</div><div><br></div><div>Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, sho=
uld we be defining a standard for running BFD on it?=C2=A0 Should we define=
 BFD over Geneve instead which is the official WG selection?=C2=A0 Is that =
going to be a separate document?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Technical</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Section 1:</div><div><br></div><div>This part needs t=
o be rewritten:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The
individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.

A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment. </span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>It&#39;s hard t=
o parse and, given IRB, the last sentence above is wrong.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Section 3:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wr=
ap">Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</span></d=
iv><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333p=
x;white-space:pre-wrap">may not support L3.</span><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><d=
iv>Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP addresses/config=
uration?</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wra=
p">Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize
faults though it requires additional consideration.</span><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>What are the additional considerations?</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reade=
r would like to know more about service nodes.</div><div><br></div><div>Sec=
tion 4</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon=
t-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Separate BFD
sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2) for
monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).</span><br></div><di=
v>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>IMO, the document should mention that this could l=
ead to scaling issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNI=
s.=C2=A0 Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not=
 even exist on the destination VTEP.=C2=A0 Finally, what is the benefit of =
doing this?=C2=A0 There may be certain corner cases where it&#39;s useful (=
vs a single BFD session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be goo=
d to explain what those are.</div><div><br></div><div>Sections 5.1 and 6.1<=
/div><div><br></div><div>In 5.1 we have</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;whi=
te-space:pre-wrap">The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the</sp=
an></div><div><span>following format:</span><br class=3D"m_7184883246686981=
880gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fa=
mily:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">...
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</span><br class=3D"m_71=
84883246686981880gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</=
div><div><br></div><div>In 6.1 we have=C2=A0</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><d=
iv><pre class=3D"m_7184883246686981880gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.=
3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:p=
age;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between tw=
o
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF</pre><p=
re class=3D"m_7184883246686981880gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0)">packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultip=
lexing
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880" title=3D"&quot;Bidirectional Forwarding D=
etection (BFD)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">RFC5880</a>].  </pre></div><div><pr=
e class=3D"m_7184883246686981880gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px=
;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified</b>=
</pre></div><div><pre class=3D"m_7184883246686981880gmail-newpage" style=3D=
"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;=
break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>using the inner headers, i.e., the s=
ource IP and the destination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</b></pre></div=
><div><pre class=3D"m_7184883246686981880gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:=
13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-befor=
e:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>encapsulated packet.</b></pre><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are th=
e same as specified in 5.1?</div><div><br></div><div>Editorial</div><div><b=
r></div><div>- Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.</div><div=
>- Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that w=
ill happen once it gets to the RFC editor.</div><div><br></div><div>Section=
 1</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fa=
mily:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">&quot;Virtual eXte=
nsible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc7348" title=3D"&quot;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network (=
VXLAN): A Framework for Overlaying Virtualized Layer 2 Networks over Layer =
3 Networks&quot;" style=3D"font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-=
space:pre-wrap" target=3D"_blank">RFC7348</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">].  provi=
des
an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
communicate in a data center network.</span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</di=
v><div>This is not accurate.=C2=A0 VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay=
 to decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the netwo=
rk.</div><div><br></div><div>Section 7</div><div><br></div><div><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:=
pre-wrap">VTEP&#39;s -&gt; VTEPs</span><br></div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:50:59 +0700
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Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
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Hi Anoop,
thank you for your thorough review and the comments you've shared. Please
find my answers below tagged GIM>>.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 4:58 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu> wrote:

>
> Here are my comments.
>
> Thanks,
> Anoop
>
> ==
>
> Philosophical
>
> Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard for
> running BFD on it?  Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is the
> official WG selection?  Is that going to be a separate document?
>
> Technical
>
> Section 1:
>
> This part needs to be rewritten:
> >>>
> The individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
> could be in a single Layer 2 network. The VXLAN segments/overlays are
> overlaid on top of Layer 3 network. A VM can communicate with another VM
> only if they are on the same VXLAN segment.
> >>>
> It's hard to parse and, given IRB, the last sentence above is wrong.
>
> Section 3:
> >>>
>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
> may not support L3.
> >>>
> Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP
> addresses/configuration?
>
> >>>
> Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize faults though it requires
> additional consideration.
> >>>
> What are the additional considerations?
>
> Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would
> like to know more about service nodes.
>
> Section 4
> >>>
> Separate BFD sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2)
> for monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).
> >>>
> IMO, the document should mention that this could lead to scaling issues
> given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNIs.  Additionally, we
> should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not even exist on the
> destination VTEP.  Finally, what is the benefit of doing this?  There may
> be certain corner cases where it's useful (vs a single BFD session between
> the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be good to explain what those are.
>
> Sections 5.1 and 6.1
>
> In 5.1 we have
> >>>
> The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the
> following format:
> ... Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP. Destination IP: IP
> address of the terminating VTEP.
> >>>
>
> In 6.1 we have
> >>>
>
> Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
> VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF
>
> packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
> packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[RFC5880 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880>].
>
> *For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified*
>
> *using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
> present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN*
>
> *encapsulated packet.*
>
>
> >>>
> How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as specified
> in 5.1?
>
> Editorial
>
> - Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.
> - Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that
> will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.
>
> Section 1
> >>>
> "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348>]. provides an encapsulation scheme
> that allows virtual machines (VMs) to communicate in a data center network.
> >>>
> This is not accurate.  VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay to
> decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the network.
>
> Section 7
>
> VTEP's -> VTEPs
>
>

--000000000000ec80a1057a3195dd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for your thorough review and the c=
omments you&#39;ve shared. Please find my answers below tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.=
</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 4:58 PM Anoop Ghan=
wani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><d=
iv>Here are my comments.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</=
div><div><br></div><div>=3D=3D</div><div><br></div><div>Philosophical</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defin=
ing a standard for running BFD on it?=C2=A0 Should we define BFD over Genev=
e instead which is the official WG selection?=C2=A0 Is that going to be a s=
eparate document?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Technical</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Section 1:</div><div><br></div><div>This part needs to be rewritten:=
</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fami=
ly:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The
individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.

A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment. </span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>It&#39;s hard t=
o parse and, given IRB, the last sentence above is wrong.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Section 3:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wr=
ap">Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</span></d=
iv><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333p=
x;white-space:pre-wrap">may not support L3.</span><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><d=
iv>Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP addresses/config=
uration?</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wra=
p">Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize
faults though it requires additional consideration.</span><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>What are the additional considerations?</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reade=
r would like to know more about service nodes.</div><div><br></div><div>Sec=
tion 4</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon=
t-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Separate BFD
sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2) for
monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).</span><br></div><di=
v>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>IMO, the document should mention that this could l=
ead to scaling issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNI=
s.=C2=A0 Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not=
 even exist on the destination VTEP.=C2=A0 Finally, what is the benefit of =
doing this?=C2=A0 There may be certain corner cases where it&#39;s useful (=
vs a single BFD session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be goo=
d to explain what those are.</div><div><br></div><div>Sections 5.1 and 6.1<=
/div><div><br></div><div>In 5.1 we have</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;whi=
te-space:pre-wrap">The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the</sp=
an></div><div><span>following format:</span><br class=3D"m_7184883246686981=
880gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fa=
mily:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">...
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</span><br class=3D"m_71=
84883246686981880gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</=
div><div><br></div><div>In 6.1 we have=C2=A0</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><d=
iv><pre class=3D"m_7184883246686981880gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.=
3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:p=
age;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between tw=
o
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF</pre><p=
re class=3D"m_7184883246686981880gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0)">packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultip=
lexing
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880" title=3D"&quot;Bidirectional Forwarding D=
etection (BFD)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">RFC5880</a>].  </pre></div><div><pr=
e class=3D"m_7184883246686981880gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px=
;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified</b>=
</pre></div><div><pre class=3D"m_7184883246686981880gmail-newpage" style=3D=
"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;=
break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>using the inner headers, i.e., the s=
ource IP and the destination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</b></pre></div=
><div><pre class=3D"m_7184883246686981880gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:=
13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-befor=
e:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>encapsulated packet.</b></pre><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are th=
e same as specified in 5.1?</div><div><br></div><div>Editorial</div><div><b=
r></div><div>- Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.</div><div=
>- Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that w=
ill happen once it gets to the RFC editor.</div><div><br></div><div>Section=
 1</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fa=
mily:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">&quot;Virtual eXte=
nsible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc7348" title=3D"&quot;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network (=
VXLAN): A Framework for Overlaying Virtualized Layer 2 Networks over Layer =
3 Networks&quot;" style=3D"font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-=
space:pre-wrap" target=3D"_blank">RFC7348</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">].  provi=
des
an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
communicate in a data center network.</span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</di=
v><div>This is not accurate.=C2=A0 VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay=
 to decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the netwo=
rk.</div><div><br></div><div>Section 7</div><div><br></div><div><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:=
pre-wrap">VTEP&#39;s -&gt; VTEPs</span><br></div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

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Hi Jeff,
thank you for keeping the wiki up to date (I believe the group is only WG
with up to date wiki). Couple notes on non-WG drafts related to BFD:

   - draft-mirsky-bfd-p2mp-vrrp-use-case is in WGAP at RTGWG (please feel
   free to comment to RTGWG)
   - draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover is to go to WGLC shortly
   - draft-ietf-pim-bfd-p2mp-use-case use of p2mp BFD (BFD in Multipoint
   Networks) in PIM-SM over shared Ethernet segments.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:52 PM Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

> Working Group,
>
> As is our custom, the BFD wiki has been updated with current status of the
> group and known documents.  You are encouraged to review it.
>
> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/bfd/wiki
>
> -- Jeff & Reshad
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Jeff,<div>thank you for keeping the=C2=
=A0wiki up to date (I believe the group is only WG with up to date wiki). C=
ouple notes on non-WG drafts related to BFD:</div><div><ul><li><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,&quot;Bitstream Vera Sans&qu=
ot;,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">draft-mirsky-bfd-p2mp-vrrp-use-cas=
e</span>=C2=A0is in WGAP at RTGWG (please feel free to comment to RTGWG)</l=
i><li><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,&quot;Bitst=
ream Vera Sans&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">draft-ietf-bess-m=
vpn-fast-failover</span>=C2=A0is to go to WGLC shortly</li><li>draft-ietf-p=
im-bfd-p2mp-use-case use of p2mp BFD (BFD in Multipoint Networks) in PIM-SM=
 over shared Ethernet segments.<br></li></ul>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><=
/div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 8, 2=
018 at 3:52 PM Jeffrey Haas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfr=
c.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Working Group,=
<br>
<br>
As is our custom, the BFD wiki has been updated with current status of the<=
br>
group and known documents.=C2=A0 You are encouraged to review it.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/bfd/wiki" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://trac.ietf.org/trac/bfd/wiki</a><br>
<br>
-- Jeff &amp; Reshad<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

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Subject: Milestones changed for bfd WG
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Changed milestone "Submit BFD for VxLAN to the IESG to be considered as a
Proposed Standard", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone.

URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/bfd/about/


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 11:34:30 -0800
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Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
To: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
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Hi Anoop,
many thanks for the thorough review and detailed comments. Please find my
answers, this time for real, in-line tagged GIM>>.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu> wrote:

>
> Here are my comments.
>
> Thanks,
> Anoop
>
> ==
>
> Philosophical
>
> Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard for
> running BFD on it?  Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is the
> official WG selection?  Is that going to be a separate document?
> GIM>> IS-IS is not on the Standard track either but that had not prevented
> IETF from developing tens of standard track RFCs using RFC 1142 as the
> normative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified it as historical. A
> similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing RFC 3784 until it was
> obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand that Down Reference,
> i.e., using informational RFC as the normative reference, is not an unusual
> situation.
>


>
> Technical
>
> Section 1:
>
> This part needs to be rewritten:
> >>>
> The individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
> could be in a single Layer 2 network. The VXLAN segments/overlays are
> overlaid on top of Layer 3 network. A VM can communicate with another VM
> only if they are on the same VXLAN segment.
> >>>
> It's hard to parse and, given IRB,
>
GIM>> Would the following text be acceptable:
OLD TEXT:
   VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
   virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.  The
   individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
   could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
   are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.
NEW TEXT:
VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting virtualized
hosts of a tenant. VXLAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and
Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs in
a multi-tenant environment, discussed in section 3 [RFC7348], by
 providing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.

 A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment.
>
> the last sentence above is wrong.
>
GIM>> Section 4 in RFC 7348 states:
Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communicate with each other.

Section 3:
> >>>
>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
> may not support L3.
> >>>
> Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP
> addresses/configuration?
>
GIM>> Would re-word as follows:
OLD TEXT:
 Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
 may not support L3.
NEW TEXT:
Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not support L3.

>
> >>>
> Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize faults though it requires
> additional consideration.
> >>>
> What are the additional considerations?
>
GIM>> For example, coordination of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.

>
> Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would
> like to know more about service nodes.
>
GIM>> I have to admit that I don't find how RFC 8293  A Framework for
Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related to this
document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the
document.

>
> Section 4
> >>>
> Separate BFD sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2)
> for monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).
> >>>
> IMO, the document should mention that this could lead to scaling issues
> given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNIs.  Additionally, we
> should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not even exist on the
> destination VTEP.  Finally, what is the benefit of doing this?  There may
> be certain corner cases where it's useful (vs a single BFD session between
> the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be good to explain what those are.
>
GIM>> Will add text in the Security Considerations section that VTEPs
should have limit on number of BFD sessions.

>
> Sections 5.1 and 6.1
>
> In 5.1 we have
> >>>
> The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the
> following format:
> ... Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP. Destination IP: IP
> address of the terminating VTEP.
> >>>
>
> In 6.1 we have
> >>>
>
> Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
> VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF
>
> packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
> packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[RFC5880 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880>].
>
> *For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified*
>
> *using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
> present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN*
>
> *encapsulated packet.*
>
>
> >>>
> How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as specified
> in 5.1?
>
GIM>> You're right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are the same
in this case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with the pair
of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control packets. Would
you agree that will be sufficient?

>
> Editorial
>
> - Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.
>
GIM>> Accepted

> - Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that
> will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.
>
GIM>> Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.

>
> Section 1
> >>>
> "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348>]. provides an encapsulation scheme
> that allows virtual machines (VMs) to communicate in a data center network.
> >>>
> This is not accurate.  VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay to
> decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the network.
>
GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text. Will change as follows:
OLD TEXT:
   "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
   an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
   communicate in a data center network.
NEW TEXT:
 "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
   an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by
  decoupling the address space of the attached virtual hosts from that of
the network.

>
> Section 7
>
> VTEP's -> VTEPs
>
GIM>> Yes, thank you.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>many thanks for the thor=
ough review and detailed comments. Please find my answers, this time for re=
al, in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div=
>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 8, 2=
018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu">=
anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Here are my comments.</div><=
div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><div><br></div><div>=3D=3D<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Philosophical</div><div><br></div><div>Since VXLAN=
 is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard for running BFD =
on it?=C2=A0 Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is the official=
 WG selection?=C2=A0 Is that going to be a separate document?<br></div><div=
 style=3D"widows: 1;"><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial, =E5=AE=8B=E4=
=BD=93, Microsoft Yahei, Lucida Grande, Verdana, Lucida, Helvetica, sans-se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; IS-IS is not on the Standar=
d track either but that had not prevented IETF from developing tens of stan=
dard track RFCs using RFC 1142 as the normative reference until RFC 7142 re=
-classified it as historical. A similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by =
publishing RFC 3784 until it was obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I =
understand that Down Reference, i.e., using informational RFC as the normat=
ive reference, is not an unusual situation.</span></font></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"widows: 1;"><br></div><div>Technical</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Section 1:</div><div><br></div><div>This part needs to be =
rewritten:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The
individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.

A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment. </span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>It&#39;s hard t=
o parse and, given IRB, </div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would the=
 following text be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.=
=C2=A0 The</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0individual racks may be part of a differe=
nt Layer 3 network, or they</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0could be in a single Lay=
er 2 network.=C2=A0 The VXLAN segments/overlays</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are =
overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnect=
ing virtualized=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">hosts of a tenant. VX=
LAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs =
in=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">a multi-tenant environment, discus=
sed in section 3 [RFC7348], by</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0provid=
ing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.</div><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><br></div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:mono=
space;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">A VM can communicate with a=
nother VM only if they are on the same</span></div><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VXL=
AN segment. </span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div>the last sentence above is wrong.</div></div></blockquote><=
div>GIM&gt;&gt; Section 4 in RFC 7348 states:</div><div>Only VMs within the=
 same VXLAN segment can communicate with=C2=A0each other.<br></div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div>Section 3:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">=
Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</span></div><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">may not support L3.</span><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>A=
re you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP addresses/configurat=
ion?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would re-word as follows:</di=
v><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L=
2 capabilities that</div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div><div>NEW TEXT:=
</div><div>Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not s=
upport L3.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap"=
>Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize
faults though it requires additional consideration.</span><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>What are the additional considerations?</div></div></b=
lockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Luc=
ida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; For example, coordinat=
ion of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>=
<div>Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader woul=
d like to know more about service nodes.</div></div></blockquote><div><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Micro=
soft Yahei&quot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; I have to admit that I don&#39;t find how R=
FC 8293=C2=A0=C2=A0A Framework for Multicast in Network Virtualization over=
 Layer 3 is related to this document. Please help with additional reference=
 to the text of the document.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 4=
</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fami=
ly:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Separate BFD
sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2) for
monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).</span><br></div><di=
v>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>IMO, the document should mention that this could l=
ead to scaling issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNI=
s.=C2=A0 Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not=
 even exist on the destination VTEP.=C2=A0 Finally, what is the benefit of =
doing this?=C2=A0 There may be certain corner cases where it&#39;s useful (=
vs a single BFD session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be goo=
d to explain what those are.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&q=
uot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; Will add text in the Security Considerations section th=
at VTEPs should have limit on number of BFD sessions.</span>=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></=
div><div>Sections 5.1 and 6.1</div><div><br></div><div>In 5.1 we have</div>=
<div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:mon=
ospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The inner MAC frame carryi=
ng the BFD payload has the</span></div><div><span>following format:</span><=
br class=3D"gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;whit=
e-space:pre-wrap">...
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</span><br class=3D"gmai=
l-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>In 6.1 we have=C2=A0</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</=
div><div><pre class=3D"gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;br=
eak-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Since multiple BFD sessions may be runnin=
g between two
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF</pre><p=
re class=3D"gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13=
.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:=
page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">packets to the proper session.  The procedure for de=
multiplexing
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880" title=3D"&quot;Bidirectional Forwarding D=
etection (BFD)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">RFC5880</a>].  </pre></div><div><pr=
e class=3D"gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.=
3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:p=
age;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identifi=
ed</b></pre></div><div><pre class=3D"gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpa=
ge" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:i=
nline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>using the inner headers,=
 i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</b></pre></div=
><div><pre class=3D"gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font=
-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break=
-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>encapsulated packet.</b></pre><br></div><=
div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>How does this work if the source IP and dest IP =
are the same as specified in 5.1?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; =
You&#39;re right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are the same i=
n this case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with the pair =
of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control packets. Would =
you agree that will be sufficient?=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Editorial</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>- Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.</div=
></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Accepted=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>- Document would ben=
efit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that will happen once it ge=
ts to the RFC editor.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Will certain=
ly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.</div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section =
1</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fam=
ily:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">&quot;Virtual eXten=
sible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [</span><a href=3D"https://tools.iet=
f.org/html/rfc7348" title=3D"&quot;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network (V=
XLAN): A Framework for Overlaying Virtualized Layer 2 Networks over Layer 3=
 Networks&quot;" style=3D"font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-s=
pace:pre-wrap" target=3D"_blank">RFC7348</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">].  provid=
es
an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
communicate in a data center network.</span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</di=
v><div>This is not accurate.=C2=A0 VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay=
 to decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the netwo=
rk.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggested te=
xt. Will change as follows:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quo=
t;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 prov=
ides</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual mac=
hines (VMs) to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate in a data center network.=
=C2=A0</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0&quot;Virtual eXtensible Lo=
cal Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 provides</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by=C2=
=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 decoupling the address space of the attached virtual h=
osts from that of the network.</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 7</div><div><=
br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-si=
ze:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VTEP&#39;s -&gt; VTEPs</span></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, thank you.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--000000000000a7ac7a057a90e83b--


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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: BFD WG status
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Greg,

On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 08:37:31AM +0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> thank you for keeping the wiki up to date (I believe the group is only WG
> with up to date wiki). Couple notes on non-WG drafts related to BFD:
> 
>    - draft-mirsky-bfd-p2mp-vrrp-use-case is in WGAP at RTGWG (please feel
>    free to comment to RTGWG)
>    - draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover is to go to WGLC shortly
>    - draft-ietf-pim-bfd-p2mp-use-case use of p2mp BFD (BFD in Multipoint
>    Networks) in PIM-SM over shared Ethernet segments.

Thanks. I've incorporated these into the wiki.

-- Jeff

> 
> Regards,
> Greg
> 
> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:52 PM Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
> 
> > Working Group,
> >
> > As is our custom, the BFD wiki has been updated with current status of the
> > group and known documents.  You are encouraged to review it.
> >
> > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/bfd/wiki
> >
> > -- Jeff & Reshad
> >
> >


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From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
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--000000000000db1b2d057a91b0ca
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Hi Greg,

Please see inline prefixed with [ag].

Thanks,
Anoop

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Anoop,
> many thanks for the thorough review and detailed comments. Please find my
> answers, this time for real, in-line tagged GIM>>.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Here are my comments.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Anoop
>>
>> ==
>>
>> Philosophical
>>
>> Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard for
>> running BFD on it?  Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is the
>> official WG selection?  Is that going to be a separate document?
>> GIM>> IS-IS is not on the Standard track either but that had not
>> prevented IETF from developing tens of standard track RFCs using RFC 1142
>> as the normative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified it as historical. A
>> similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing RFC 3784 until it was
>> obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand that Down Reference,
>> i.e., using informational RFC as the normative reference, is not an unusual
>> situation.
>>
>
[ag] OK.  I'm not an expert on this part so unless someone else that is an
expert (chairs, AD?) can comment on it, I'll just let it go.


>
>
>>
>> Technical
>>
>> Section 1:
>>
>> This part needs to be rewritten:
>> >>>
>> The individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
>> could be in a single Layer 2 network. The VXLAN segments/overlays are
>> overlaid on top of Layer 3 network. A VM can communicate with another VM
>> only if they are on the same VXLAN segment.
>> >>>
>> It's hard to parse and, given IRB,
>>
> GIM>> Would the following text be acceptable:
> OLD TEXT:
>    VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
>    virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.  The
>    individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
>    could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
>    are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.
> NEW TEXT:
> VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting virtualized
> hosts of a tenant. VXLAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and
> Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs in
> a multi-tenant environment, discussed in section 3 [RFC7348], by
>  providing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.
>

[ag] This is a lot better.


>
>  A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
> VXLAN segment.
>>
>> the last sentence above is wrong.
>>
> GIM>> Section 4 in RFC 7348 states:
> Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communicate with each other.
>

[ag] VMs on different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so even
RFC 7348 is wrong.  Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- "In the
absence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...".


>
> Section 3:
>> >>>
>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>> may not support L3.
>> >>>
>> Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP
>> addresses/configuration?
>>
> GIM>> Would re-word as follows:
> OLD TEXT:
>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>  may not support L3.
> NEW TEXT:
> Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not support L3.
>

[ag] I still don't understand this.  What does it mean for a VM to not
support L3?  No IP address, no default GW, something else?


>
>> >>>
>> Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize faults though it requires
>> additional consideration.
>> >>>
>> What are the additional considerations?
>>
> GIM>> For example, coordination of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.
>

[ag] Can we mention them in the draft?


>
>> Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would
>> like to know more about service nodes.
>>
> GIM>> I have to admit that I don't find how RFC 8293  A Framework for
> Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related to this
> document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the
> document.
>

[ag] The RFC discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned here.


>
>> Section 4
>> >>>
>> Separate BFD sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2)
>> for monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).
>> >>>
>> IMO, the document should mention that this could lead to scaling issues
>> given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNIs.  Additionally, we
>> should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not even exist on the
>> destination VTEP.  Finally, what is the benefit of doing this?  There may
>> be certain corner cases where it's useful (vs a single BFD session between
>> the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be good to explain what those are.
>>
> GIM>> Will add text in the Security Considerations section that VTEPs
> should have limit on number of BFD sessions.
>

[ag] I was hoping for two things:
- A mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is
discussed.  (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)
- What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?


>
>> Sections 5.1 and 6.1
>>
>> In 5.1 we have
>> >>>
>> The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the
>> following format:
>> ... Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP. Destination IP: IP
>> address of the terminating VTEP.
>> >>>
>>
>> In 6.1 we have
>> >>>
>>
>> Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
>> VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF
>>
>> packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
>> packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[RFC5880 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880>].
>>
>> *For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified*
>>
>> *using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>> present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN*
>>
>> *encapsulated packet.*
>>
>>
>> >>>
>> How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as specified
>> in 5.1?
>>
> GIM>> You're right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are the
> same in this case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with the
> pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control packets.
> Would you agree that will be sufficient?
>

[ag] Yes, I think that should work.

>
>> Editorial
>>
>
[ag] Agree with all comments on this section.

>
>> - Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.
>>
> GIM>> Accepted
>
>> - Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that
>> will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.
>>
> GIM>> Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.
>
>>
>> Section 1
>> >>>
>> "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348>]. provides an encapsulation scheme
>> that allows virtual machines (VMs) to communicate in a data center network.
>> >>>
>> This is not accurate.  VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay to
>> decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the network.
>>
> GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text. Will change as follows:
> OLD TEXT:
>    "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>    an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
>    communicate in a data center network.
> NEW TEXT:
>  "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>    an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by
>   decoupling the address space of the attached virtual hosts from that of
> the network.
>
>>
>> Section 7
>>
>> VTEP's -> VTEPs
>>
> GIM>> Yes, thank you.
>

--000000000000db1b2d057a91b0ca
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed wit=
h [ag].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mir=
sky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>many thanks for the thorough review and detailed=
 comments. Please find my answers, this time for real, in-line tagged GIM&g=
t;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Gha=
nwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@=
alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Here are my comments.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><div><br></div><div>=3D=3D</div><=
div><br></div><div>Philosophical</div><div><br></div><div>Since VXLAN is no=
t an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard for running BFD on it?=
=C2=A0 Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is the official WG se=
lection?=C2=A0 Is that going to be a separate document?<br></div><div><font=
 color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial, =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93, Microsoft Yahei, Luci=
da Grande, Verdana, Lucida, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size=
:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; IS-IS is not on the Standard track either but that had n=
ot prevented IETF from developing tens of standard track RFCs using RFC 114=
2 as the normative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified it as historical.=
 A similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing RFC 3784 until it =
was obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand that Down Referenc=
e, i.e., using informational RFC as the normative reference, is not an unus=
ual situation.</span></font></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>[ag] OK.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not an expert on this part so unless someone=
 else that is an expert (chairs, AD?) can comment on it, I&#39;ll just let =
it go.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><d=
iv>Technical</div><div><br></div><div>Section 1:</div><div><br></div><div>T=
his part needs to be rewritten:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space=
:pre-wrap">The
individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.

A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment. </span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>It&#39;s hard t=
o parse and, given IRB, </div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would the=
 following text be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.=
=C2=A0 The</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0individual racks may be part of a differe=
nt Layer 3 network, or they</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0could be in a single Lay=
er 2 network.=C2=A0 The VXLAN segments/overlays</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are =
overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnect=
ing virtualized=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">hosts of a tenant. VX=
LAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs =
in=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">a multi-tenant environment, discus=
sed in section 3 [RFC7348], by</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0provid=
ing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.</div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] This is a lot better.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">A=
 VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same</span></di=
v><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px=
;white-space:pre-wrap">VXLAN segment. </span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>the last sentence above is wrong.=
</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Section 4 in RFC 7348 states:</di=
v><div>Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communicate with=C2=A0eac=
h other.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] VMs on different segme=
nts can communicate using routing/IRB, so even RFC 7348 is wrong.=C2=A0 Per=
haps the text should be modified so say -- &quot;In the absence of a router=
 in the overlay, a VM can communicate...&quot;.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Section 3:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
</div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font=
-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Most deployments will have VMs with o=
nly L2 capabilities that</span></div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-f=
amily:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">may not support L=
3.</span><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>Are you suggesting most deployments ha=
ve VMs with no IP addresses/configuration?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM=
&gt;&gt; Would re-word as follows:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0Most=
 deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</div><div>=C2=A0m=
ay not support L3.</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div>Deployments may have VMs w=
ith only L2 capabilities that do not support L3.<br></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>[ag] I still don&#39;t understand this.=C2=A0 What does it mea=
n for a VM to not support L3?=C2=A0 No IP address, no default GW, something=
 else?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;f=
ont-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Having a hierarchical OAM model he=
lps localize
faults though it requires additional consideration.</span><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>What are the additional considerations?</div></div></b=
lockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Luc=
ida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; For example, coordinat=
ion of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>[ag] Can we mention them in the draft?</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Would be useful to add a reference=
 to RFC 8293 in case the reader would like to know more about service nodes=
.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:=
Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&qu=
ot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; I have =
to admit that I don&#39;t find how RFC 8293=C2=A0=C2=A0A Framework for Mult=
icast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related to this document. P=
lease help with additional reference to the text of the document.=C2=A0</sp=
an>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] The RFC discusses the use=
 of service nodes which is mentioned here.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 4</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><di=
v><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px=
;white-space:pre-wrap">Separate BFD
sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2) for
monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).</span><br></div><di=
v>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>IMO, the document should mention that this could l=
ead to scaling issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNI=
s.=C2=A0 Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not=
 even exist on the destination VTEP.=C2=A0 Finally, what is the benefit of =
doing this?=C2=A0 There may be certain corner cases where it&#39;s useful (=
vs a single BFD session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be goo=
d to explain what those are.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&q=
uot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; Will add text in the Security Considerations section th=
at VTEPs should have limit on number of BFD sessions.</span>=C2=A0</div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] I was hoping for two things:</div><div>- A =
mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is discussed.=
=C2=A0 (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)</div><div>- W=
hat is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?</div><di=
v>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sections 5.1 and 6.1</div><=
div><br></div><div>In 5.1 we have</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-spa=
ce:pre-wrap">The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the</span></d=
iv><div><span>following format:</span><br class=3D"m_3738381183992508565gma=
il-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wra=
p">...
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</span><br class=3D"m_37=
38381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline=
"></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>In 6.1 we have=C2=A0</di=
v><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><pre class=3D"m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_21=
20889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px=
;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
>Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF</pre><p=
re class=3D"m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" =
style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inlin=
e-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">packets to the proper session. =
 The procedure for demultiplexing
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880" title=3D"&quot;Bidirectional Forwarding D=
etection (BFD)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">RFC5880</a>].  </pre></div><div><pr=
e class=3D"m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline=
-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>For such packets, the BFD ses=
sion MUST be identified</b></pre></div><div><pre class=3D"m_373838118399250=
8565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;=
margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the dest=
ination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</b></pre></div=
><div><pre class=3D"m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-n=
ewpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;displ=
ay:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>encapsulated packet.=
</b></pre><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>How does this work if the s=
ource IP and dest IP are the same as specified in 5.1?</div></div></blockqu=
ote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; You&#39;re right, Destination and source IP addresses =
likely are the same in this case. Will add that the source UDP port number,=
 along with the pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD co=
ntrol packets. Would you agree that will be sufficient?=C2=A0</div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>[ag] Yes, I think that should work.=C2=A0</div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Editorial</div></div></blockquote></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>[ag] Agree with all comments on this section.=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>- Terminology section should be renamed to acr=
onyms.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Accepted=C2=A0</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>- Document=
 would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that will happen =
once it gets to the RFC editor.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Wi=
ll certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><di=
v>Section 1</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">&quot;Vir=
tual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [</span><a href=3D"https:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348" title=3D"&quot;Virtual eXtensible Local Area =
Network (VXLAN): A Framework for Overlaying Virtualized Layer 2 Networks ov=
er Layer 3 Networks&quot;" style=3D"font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333=
px;white-space:pre-wrap" target=3D"_blank">RFC7348</a><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">=
].  provides
an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
communicate in a data center network.</span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</di=
v><div>This is not accurate.=C2=A0 VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay=
 to decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the netwo=
rk.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggested te=
xt. Will change as follows:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quo=
t;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 prov=
ides</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual mac=
hines (VMs) to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate in a data center network.=
=C2=A0</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0&quot;Virtual eXtensible Lo=
cal Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 provides</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by=C2=
=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 decoupling the address space of the attached virtual h=
osts from that of the network.</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 7</div><div><=
br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-si=
ze:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VTEP&#39;s -&gt; VTEPs</span></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, thank you.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:45:19 -0800
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Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
To: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
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Hi Anoop,
thank you for the expedient response. I am glad that some of my responses
have addressed your concerns. Please find followup notes in-line tagged
GIM2>>. I've attached the diff to highlight the updates applied in the
working version. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> Please see inline prefixed with [ag].
>
> Thanks,
> Anoop
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Anoop,
>> many thanks for the thorough review and detailed comments. Please find my
>> answers, this time for real, in-line tagged GIM>>.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Here are my comments.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Anoop
>>>
>>> ==
>>>
>>> Philosophical
>>>
>>> Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard
>>> for running BFD on it?  Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is
>>> the official WG selection?  Is that going to be a separate document?
>>> GIM>> IS-IS is not on the Standard track either but that had not
>>> prevented IETF from developing tens of standard track RFCs using RFC 1142
>>> as the normative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified it as historical. A
>>> similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing RFC 3784 until it was
>>> obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand that Down Reference,
>>> i.e., using informational RFC as the normative reference, is not an unusual
>>> situation.
>>>
>>
> [ag] OK.  I'm not an expert on this part so unless someone else that is an
> expert (chairs, AD?) can comment on it, I'll just let it go.
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Technical
>>>
>>> Section 1:
>>>
>>> This part needs to be rewritten:
>>> >>>
>>> The individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
>>> could be in a single Layer 2 network. The VXLAN segments/overlays are
>>> overlaid on top of Layer 3 network. A VM can communicate with another VM
>>> only if they are on the same VXLAN segment.
>>> >>>
>>> It's hard to parse and, given IRB,
>>>
>> GIM>> Would the following text be acceptable:
>> OLD TEXT:
>>    VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
>>    virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.  The
>>    individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
>>    could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
>>    are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.
>> NEW TEXT:
>> VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting virtualized
>> hosts of a tenant. VXLAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and
>> Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs in
>> a multi-tenant environment, discussed in section 3 [RFC7348], by
>>  providing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.
>>
>
> [ag] This is a lot better.
>
>
>>
>>  A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
>> VXLAN segment.
>>>
>>> the last sentence above is wrong.
>>>
>> GIM>> Section 4 in RFC 7348 states:
>> Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communicate with each other.
>>
>
> [ag] VMs on different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so even
> RFC 7348 is wrong.  Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- "In the
> absence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...".
>
>
>>
>> Section 3:
>>> >>>
>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>> may not support L3.
>>> >>>
>>> Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP
>>> addresses/configuration?
>>>
>> GIM>> Would re-word as follows:
>> OLD TEXT:
>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>  may not support L3.
>> NEW TEXT:
>> Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not support L3.
>>
>
> [ag] I still don't understand this.  What does it mean for a VM to not
> support L3?  No IP address, no default GW, something else?
>
GIM2>> VM communicates with its VTEP which, in turn, originates VXLAN
tunnel. VM is not required to have IP address as it is VTEP's IP address
that VM's MAC is associated with. As for gateway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN
gateway as the device that forwards traffice between VXLAN and non-VXLAN
domains. Considering all that, would the following change be acceptable:
OLD TEXT:
 Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
 may not support L3.
NEW TEXT:
 Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have an
IP address assigned.

>
>
>>
>>> >>>
>>> Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize faults though it requires
>>> additional consideration.
>>> >>>
>>> What are the additional considerations?
>>>
>> GIM>> For example, coordination of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.
>>
>
> [ag] Can we mention them in the draft?
>
>
>>
>>> Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would
>>> like to know more about service nodes.
>>>
>> GIM>> I have to admit that I don't find how RFC 8293  A Framework for
>> Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related to this
>> document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the
>> document.
>>
>
> [ag] The RFC discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned here.
>
>
>>
>>> Section 4
>>> >>>
>>> Separate BFD sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2)
>>> for monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).
>>> >>>
>>> IMO, the document should mention that this could lead to scaling issues
>>> given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNIs.  Additionally, we
>>> should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not even exist on the
>>> destination VTEP.  Finally, what is the benefit of doing this?  There may
>>> be certain corner cases where it's useful (vs a single BFD session between
>>> the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be good to explain what those are.
>>>
>> GIM>> Will add text in the Security Considerations section that VTEPs
>> should have limit on number of BFD sessions.
>>
>
> [ag] I was hoping for two things:
> - A mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is
> discussed.  (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)
>
GIM2>> I've added the following sentense in both places:
The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable upper bound on the number of
BFD sessions that can be created between the same pair of VTEPs.

> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>
GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's the need
to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.

>
>
>>
>>> Sections 5.1 and 6.1
>>>
>>> In 5.1 we have
>>> >>>
>>> The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the
>>> following format:
>>> ... Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP. Destination IP: IP
>>> address of the terminating VTEP.
>>> >>>
>>>
>>> In 6.1 we have
>>> >>>
>>>
>>> Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
>>> VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF
>>>
>>> packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
>>> packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[RFC5880 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880>].
>>>
>>> *For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified*
>>>
>>> *using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>>> present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN*
>>>
>>> *encapsulated packet.*
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as
>>> specified in 5.1?
>>>
>> GIM>> You're right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are the
>> same in this case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with the
>> pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control packets.
>> Would you agree that will be sufficient?
>>
>
> [ag] Yes, I think that should work.
>
>>
>>> Editorial
>>>
>>
> [ag] Agree with all comments on this section.
>
>>
>>> - Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.
>>>
>> GIM>> Accepted
>>
>>> - Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that
>>> will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.
>>>
>> GIM>> Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.
>>
>>>
>>> Section 1
>>> >>>
>>> "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348
>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348>]. provides an encapsulation
>>> scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to communicate in a data center
>>> network.
>>> >>>
>>> This is not accurate.  VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay to
>>> decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the network.
>>>
>> GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text. Will change as follows:
>> OLD TEXT:
>>    "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
>>    communicate in a data center network.
>> NEW TEXT:
>>  "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by
>>   decoupling the address space of the attached virtual hosts from that of
>> the network.
>>
>>>
>>> Section 7
>>>
>>> VTEP's -> VTEPs
>>>
>> GIM>> Yes, thank you.
>>
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for the expedient=
=C2=A0response. I am glad that some=C2=A0of my responses have addressed you=
r concerns. Please find followup notes in-line tagged GIM2&gt;&gt;. I&#39;v=
e attached the diff to highlight the updates applied in the working version=
. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.</div><div><br></div><div>Reg=
ards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">O=
n Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@=
alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi=
 Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed with [ag].</div><div><=
br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>many thanks for the thorough re=
view and detailed comments. Please find my answers, this time for real, in-=
line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</=
div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at =
1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=
=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Here are my comm=
ents.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><div><br></div>=
<div>=3D=3D</div><div><br></div><div>Philosophical</div><div><br></div><div=
>Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard for =
running BFD on it?=C2=A0 Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is =
the official WG selection?=C2=A0 Is that going to be a separate document?<b=
r></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial, =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93, Mic=
rosoft Yahei, Lucida Grande, Verdana, Lucida, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span =
style=3D"font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; IS-IS is not on the Standard track eit=
her but that had not prevented IETF from developing tens of standard track =
RFCs using RFC 1142 as the normative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified=
 it as historical. A similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing =
RFC 3784 until it was obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand =
that Down Reference, i.e., using informational RFC as the normative referen=
ce, is not an unusual situation.</span></font></div></div></blockquote></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></block=
quote><div><br></div><div>[ag] OK.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not an expert on this part=
 so unless someone else that is an expert (chairs, AD?) can comment on it, =
I&#39;ll just let it go.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Technical</div><div><br></div><div=
>Section 1:</div><div><br></div><div>This part needs to be rewritten:</div>=
<div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:mon=
ospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The
individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.

A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment. </span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>It&#39;s hard t=
o parse and, given IRB, </div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would the=
 following text be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.=
=C2=A0 The</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0individual racks may be part of a differe=
nt Layer 3 network, or they</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0could be in a single Lay=
er 2 network.=C2=A0 The VXLAN segments/overlays</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are =
overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnect=
ing virtualized=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">hosts of a tenant. VX=
LAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs =
in=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">a multi-tenant environment, discus=
sed in section 3 [RFC7348], by</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0provid=
ing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.</div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] This is a lot better.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div>=C2=A0<span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-=
space:pre-wrap">A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on th=
e same</span></div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VXLAN segment. </span><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>the last sentenc=
e above is wrong.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Section 4 in RFC=
 7348 states:</div><div>Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communic=
ate with=C2=A0each other.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] VMs o=
n different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so even RFC 7348 is=
 wrong.=C2=A0 Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- &quot;In the ab=
sence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...&quot;.</div><div>=
=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div>Section 3:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">=
Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</span></div><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">may not support L3.</span><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>A=
re you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP addresses/configurat=
ion?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would re-word as follows:</di=
v><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L=
2 capabilities that</div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div><div>NEW TEXT:=
</div><div>Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not s=
upport L3.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] I still don&#39;t un=
derstand this.=C2=A0 What does it mean for a VM to not support L3?=C2=A0 No=
 IP address, no default GW, something else?</div></div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; VM communicates with its VTEP which, in turn, origin=
ates VXLAN tunnel. VM is not required to have IP address as it is VTEP&#39;=
s IP address that VM&#39;s MAC is associated with. As for gateway, RFC 7348=
 discusses VXLAN gateway as the device that forwards traffice between VXLAN=
 and non-VXLAN domains. Considering all that, would the following change be=
 acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will=
 have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3=
.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have=
 VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have an IP address assigned.</div></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap"=
>Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize
faults though it requires additional consideration.</span><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>What are the additional considerations?</div></div></b=
lockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Luc=
ida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; For example, coordinat=
ion of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>[ag] Can we mention them in the draft?</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Would be useful=
 to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would like to know more =
about service nodes.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&qu=
ot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
GIM&gt;&gt; I have to admit that I don&#39;t find how RFC 8293=C2=A0=C2=A0A=
 Framework for Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related =
to this document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the =
document.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] The RF=
C discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned here.=C2=A0=C2=A0</=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sec=
tion 4</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon=
t-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Separate BFD
sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2) for
monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).</span><br></div><di=
v>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>IMO, the document should mention that this could l=
ead to scaling issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNI=
s.=C2=A0 Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not=
 even exist on the destination VTEP.=C2=A0 Finally, what is the benefit of =
doing this?=C2=A0 There may be certain corner cases where it&#39;s useful (=
vs a single BFD session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be goo=
d to explain what those are.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&q=
uot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; Will add text in the Security Considerations section th=
at VTEPs should have limit on number of BFD sessions.</span>=C2=A0</div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] I was hoping for two things:</div><div>- A =
mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is discussed.=
=C2=A0 (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)</div></div></=
div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve added the following sente=
nse in both places:</div><div>The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable u=
pper bound on the number of BFD sessions that can be created between the sa=
me pair of VTEPs.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>- What is the ben=
efit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?</div></div></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; An alternative would be to run CFM between =
VMs, if there&#39;s the need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Ag=
ain, this is optional.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sections 5.1 and 6.1</=
div><div><br></div><div>In 5.1 we have</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;whit=
e-space:pre-wrap">The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the</spa=
n></div><div><span>following format:</span><br class=3D"gmail-m_-4014731856=
997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072=
597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fa=
mily:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">...
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</span><br class=3D"gmai=
l-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2=
120889048547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
/div><div><br></div><div>In 6.1 we have=C2=A0</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><=
div><pre class=3D"gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_373838=
1183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:1=
3.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before=
:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between =
two
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF</pre><p=
re class=3D"gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_373838118399=
2508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333=
px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)">packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demulti=
plexing
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880" title=3D"&quot;Bidirectional Forwarding D=
etection (BFD)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">RFC5880</a>].  </pre></div><div><pr=
e class=3D"gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992=
508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified</b=
></pre></div><div><pre class=3D"gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503=
179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=
=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-blo=
ck;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>using the inner headers, i.e., th=
e source IP and the destination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</b></pre></div=
><div><pre class=3D"gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738=
381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size=
:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-befo=
re:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>encapsulated packet.</b></pre><br></div><div>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are t=
he same as specified in 5.1?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; You&#=
39;re right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are the same in thi=
s case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with the pair of IP=
 addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control packets. Would you a=
gree that will be sufficient?=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag]=
 Yes, I think that should work.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div><br></div><div>Editorial</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>[ag] Agree with all comments on this section.=C2=A0</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>- Terminology section should be re=
named to acronyms.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Accepted=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v>- Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that =
will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.</div></div></blockquote><div>GI=
M&gt;&gt; Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><=
br></div><div>Section 1</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wra=
p">&quot;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [</span><a hre=
f=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348" title=3D"&quot;Virtual eXtensible=
 Local Area Network (VXLAN): A Framework for Overlaying Virtualized Layer 2=
 Networks over Layer 3 Networks&quot;" style=3D"font-family:monospace;font-=
size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap" target=3D"_blank">RFC7348</a><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-spac=
e:pre-wrap">].  provides
an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
communicate in a data center network.</span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</di=
v><div>This is not accurate.=C2=A0 VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay=
 to decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the netwo=
rk.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggested te=
xt. Will change as follows:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quo=
t;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 prov=
ides</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual mac=
hines (VMs) to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate in a data center network.=
=C2=A0</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0&quot;Virtual eXtensible Lo=
cal Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 provides</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by=C2=
=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 decoupling the address space of the attached virtual h=
osts from that of the network.</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 7</div><div><=
br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-si=
ze:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VTEP&#39;s -&gt; VTEPs</span></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, thank you.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 23:00:37 -0800
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Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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Hi Greg,

Please see inline prefixed with [ag2].

Thanks,
Anoop

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:45 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Anoop,
> thank you for the expedient response. I am glad that some of my responses
> have addressed your concerns. Please find followup notes in-line tagged
> GIM2>>. I've attached the diff to highlight the updates applied in the
> working version. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Greg,
>>
>> Please see inline prefixed with [ag].
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Anoop
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Anoop,
>>> many thanks for the thorough review and detailed comments. Please find
>>> my answers, this time for real, in-line tagged GIM>>.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here are my comments.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Anoop
>>>>
>>>> ==
>>>>
>>>> Philosophical
>>>>
>>>> Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard
>>>> for running BFD on it?  Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is
>>>> the official WG selection?  Is that going to be a separate document?
>>>> GIM>> IS-IS is not on the Standard track either but that had not
>>>> prevented IETF from developing tens of standard track RFCs using RFC 1142
>>>> as the normative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified it as historical. A
>>>> similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing RFC 3784 until it was
>>>> obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand that Down Reference,
>>>> i.e., using informational RFC as the normative reference, is not an unusual
>>>> situation.
>>>>
>>>
>> [ag] OK.  I'm not an expert on this part so unless someone else that is
>> an expert (chairs, AD?) can comment on it, I'll just let it go.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Technical
>>>>
>>>> Section 1:
>>>>
>>>> This part needs to be rewritten:
>>>> >>>
>>>> The individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or
>>>> they could be in a single Layer 2 network. The VXLAN segments/overlays are
>>>> overlaid on top of Layer 3 network. A VM can communicate with another VM
>>>> only if they are on the same VXLAN segment.
>>>> >>>
>>>> It's hard to parse and, given IRB,
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Would the following text be acceptable:
>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>    VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
>>>    virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.  The
>>>    individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
>>>    could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
>>>    are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.
>>> NEW TEXT:
>>> VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting virtualized
>>> hosts of a tenant. VXLAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and
>>> Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs in
>>> a multi-tenant environment, discussed in section 3 [RFC7348], by
>>>  providing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.
>>>
>>
>> [ag] This is a lot better.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>  A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
>>> VXLAN segment.
>>>>
>>>> the last sentence above is wrong.
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Section 4 in RFC 7348 states:
>>> Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communicate with each other.
>>>
>>
>> [ag] VMs on different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so even
>> RFC 7348 is wrong.  Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- "In the
>> absence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...".
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Section 3:
>>>> >>>
>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>> may not support L3.
>>>> >>>
>>>> Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP
>>>> addresses/configuration?
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Would re-word as follows:
>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>  may not support L3.
>>> NEW TEXT:
>>> Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not support
>>> L3.
>>>
>>
>> [ag] I still don't understand this.  What does it mean for a VM to not
>> support L3?  No IP address, no default GW, something else?
>>
> GIM2>> VM communicates with its VTEP which, in turn, originates VXLAN
> tunnel. VM is not required to have IP address as it is VTEP's IP address
> that VM's MAC is associated with. As for gateway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN
> gateway as the device that forwards traffice between VXLAN and non-VXLAN
> domains. Considering all that, would the following change be acceptable:
> OLD TEXT:
>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>  may not support L3.
> NEW TEXT:
>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have an
> IP address assigned.
>

[ag2] Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deployments have VMs
without an IP address)?  Normally I would think VMs would have an IP
address.  It's just that they are segregated into segments and, without an
intervening router, they are restricted to communicate only within their
subnet.

>
>>
>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize faults though it
>>>> requires additional consideration.
>>>> >>>
>>>> What are the additional considerations?
>>>>
>>> GIM>> For example, coordination of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> [ag] Can we mention them in the draft?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would
>>>> like to know more about service nodes.
>>>>
>>> GIM>> I have to admit that I don't find how RFC 8293  A Framework for
>>> Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related to this
>>> document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the
>>> document.
>>>
>>
>> [ag] The RFC discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned here.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> Section 4
>>>> >>>
>>>> Separate BFD sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and
>>>> IP2) for monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).
>>>> >>>
>>>> IMO, the document should mention that this could lead to scaling issues
>>>> given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNIs.  Additionally, we
>>>> should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not even exist on the
>>>> destination VTEP.  Finally, what is the benefit of doing this?  There may
>>>> be certain corner cases where it's useful (vs a single BFD session between
>>>> the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be good to explain what those are.
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Will add text in the Security Considerations section that VTEPs
>>> should have limit on number of BFD sessions.
>>>
>>
>> [ag] I was hoping for two things:
>> - A mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is
>> discussed.  (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)
>>
> GIM2>> I've added the following sentense in both places:
> The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable upper bound on the number of
> BFD sessions that can be created between the same pair of VTEPs.
>

[ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?


> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>
> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's the need
> to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.
>

[ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one to
monitor the liveliness of VMs.


>
>>
>>>
>>>> Sections 5.1 and 6.1
>>>>
>>>> In 5.1 we have
>>>> >>>
>>>> The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the
>>>> following format:
>>>> ... Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP. Destination IP: IP
>>>> address of the terminating VTEP.
>>>> >>>
>>>>
>>>> In 6.1 we have
>>>> >>>
>>>>
>>>> Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
>>>> VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF
>>>>
>>>> packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
>>>> packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[RFC5880 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880>].
>>>>
>>>> *For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified*
>>>>
>>>> *using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>>>> present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN*
>>>>
>>>> *encapsulated packet.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as
>>>> specified in 5.1?
>>>>
>>> GIM>> You're right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are the
>>> same in this case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with the
>>> pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control packets.
>>> Would you agree that will be sufficient?
>>>
>>
>> [ag] Yes, I think that should work.
>>
>>>
>>>> Editorial
>>>>
>>>
>> [ag] Agree with all comments on this section.
>>
>>>
>>>> - Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Accepted
>>>
>>>> - Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe
>>>> that will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Section 1
>>>> >>>
>>>> "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348
>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348>]. provides an encapsulation
>>>> scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to communicate in a data center
>>>> network.
>>>> >>>
>>>> This is not accurate.  VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay to
>>>> decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the network.
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text. Will change as follows:
>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>    "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
>>>    communicate in a data center network.
>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>  "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by
>>>   decoupling the address space of the attached virtual hosts from that
>>> of the network.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Section 7
>>>>
>>>> VTEP's -> VTEPs
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Yes, thank you.
>>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed wit=
h [ag2].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at =
9:45 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for the=
 expedient=C2=A0response. I am glad that some=C2=A0of my responses have add=
ressed your concerns. Please find followup notes in-line tagged GIM2&gt;&gt=
;. I&#39;ve attached the diff to highlight the updates applied in the worki=
ng version. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed with [ag].<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>many thanks for th=
e thorough review and detailed comments. Please find my answers, this time =
for real, in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</di=
v><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, No=
v 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke=
.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Here=
 are my comments.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><di=
v><br></div><div>=3D=3D</div><div><br></div><div>Philosophical</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a s=
tandard for running BFD on it?=C2=A0 Should we define BFD over Geneve inste=
ad which is the official WG selection?=C2=A0 Is that going to be a separate=
 document?<br></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial, =E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93, Microsoft Yahei, Lucida Grande, Verdana, Lucida, Helvetica, sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; IS-IS is not on the Stan=
dard track either but that had not prevented IETF from developing tens of s=
tandard track RFCs using RFC 1142 as the normative reference until RFC 7142=
 re-classified it as historical. A similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE =
by publishing RFC 3784 until it was obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later.=
 I understand that Down Reference, i.e., using informational RFC as the nor=
mative reference, is not an unusual situation.</span></font></div></div></b=
lockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] OK.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not an exper=
t on this part so unless someone else that is an expert (chairs, AD?) can c=
omment on it, I&#39;ll just let it go.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Technical</div><div><=
br></div><div>Section 1:</div><div><br></div><div>This part needs to be rew=
ritten:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fo=
nt-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The
individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.

A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment. </span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>It&#39;s hard t=
o parse and, given IRB, </div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would the=
 following text be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.=
=C2=A0 The</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0individual racks may be part of a differe=
nt Layer 3 network, or they</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0could be in a single Lay=
er 2 network.=C2=A0 The VXLAN segments/overlays</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are =
overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnect=
ing virtualized=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">hosts of a tenant. VX=
LAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs =
in=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">a multi-tenant environment, discus=
sed in section 3 [RFC7348], by</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0provid=
ing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.</div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] This is a lot better.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div>=C2=A0<span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-=
space:pre-wrap">A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on th=
e same</span></div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VXLAN segment. </span><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>the last sentenc=
e above is wrong.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Section 4 in RFC=
 7348 states:</div><div>Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communic=
ate with=C2=A0each other.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] VMs o=
n different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so even RFC 7348 is=
 wrong.=C2=A0 Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- &quot;In the ab=
sence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...&quot;.</div><div>=
=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div>Section 3:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">=
Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</span></div><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">may not support L3.</span><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>A=
re you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP addresses/configurat=
ion?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would re-word as follows:</di=
v><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L=
2 capabilities that</div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div><div>NEW TEXT:=
</div><div>Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not s=
upport L3.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] I sti=
ll don&#39;t understand this.=C2=A0 What does it mean for a VM to not suppo=
rt L3?=C2=A0 No IP address, no default GW, something else?</div></div></div=
></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; VM communicates with its VTEP which, =
in turn, originates VXLAN tunnel. VM is not required to have IP address as =
it is VTEP&#39;s IP address that VM&#39;s MAC is associated with. As for ga=
teway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN gateway as the device that forwards traffic=
e between VXLAN and non-VXLAN domains. Considering all that, would the foll=
owing change be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0Most d=
eployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</div><div>=C2=A0may=
 not support L3.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0Most deploy=
ments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have an IP address as=
signed.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag2]=
 Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deployments have VMs with=
out an IP address)?=C2=A0 Normally I would think VMs would have an IP addre=
ss.=C2=A0 It&#39;s just that they are segregated into segments and, without=
 an intervening router, they are restricted to communicate only within thei=
r subnet.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
/div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:1=
3.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Having a hierarchical OAM model helps locali=
ze
faults though it requires additional consideration.</span><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>What are the additional considerations?</div></div></b=
lockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Luc=
ida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; For example, coordinat=
ion of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>[ag] Can we mention them in the draft?</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Would be useful=
 to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would like to know more =
about service nodes.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&qu=
ot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
GIM&gt;&gt; I have to admit that I don&#39;t find how RFC 8293=C2=A0=C2=A0A=
 Framework for Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related =
to this document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the =
document.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] The RF=
C discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned here.=C2=A0=C2=A0</=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sec=
tion 4</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon=
t-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Separate BFD
sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2) for
monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).</span><br></div><di=
v>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>IMO, the document should mention that this could l=
ead to scaling issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNI=
s.=C2=A0 Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not=
 even exist on the destination VTEP.=C2=A0 Finally, what is the benefit of =
doing this?=C2=A0 There may be certain corner cases where it&#39;s useful (=
vs a single BFD session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be goo=
d to explain what those are.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&q=
uot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; Will add text in the Security Considerations section th=
at VTEPs should have limit on number of BFD sessions.</span>=C2=A0</div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] I was hoping for two things:</div><div>- A =
mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is discussed.=
=C2=A0 (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)</div></div></=
div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve added the following sente=
nse in both places:</div><div>The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable u=
pper bound on the number of BFD sessions that can be created between the sa=
me pair of VTEPs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>[ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>- What is the =
benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?</div></div></div></=
div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; An alternative would be to run CFM betwe=
en VMs, if there&#39;s the need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM.=
 Again, this is optional.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>[ag2] I&#39;m not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTE=
Ps allows one to monitor the liveliness of VMs.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sections 5.1 and 6.1</div><div><br></div=
><div>In 5.1 we have</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">=
The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the</span></div><div><span=
>following format:</span><br class=3D"m_-618924820585214784m_49438050311854=
43502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565=
gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-=
wrap">...
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</span><br class=3D"m_-6=
18924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905=
075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-int=
erchange-newline"></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>In 6.1 w=
e have=C2=A0</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><pre class=3D"m_-618924820585=
214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_330590507550317905=
8m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;bre=
ak-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Since multiple BFD sessions may be running=
 between two
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF</pre><p=
re class=3D"m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-401473185699=
7763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_212088904854707259=
7gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0=
px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">packets to the =
proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880" title=3D"&quot;Bidirectional Forwarding D=
etection (BFD)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">RFC5880</a>].  </pre></div><div><pr=
e class=3D"m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997=
763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597=
gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0p=
x;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>For such pack=
ets, the BFD session MUST be identified</b></pre></div><div><pre class=3D"m=
_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305=
905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpag=
e" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:in=
line-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>using the inner headers, =
i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</b></pre></div=
><div><pre class=3D"m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014=
731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048=
547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-=
bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>enca=
psulated packet.</b></pre><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>How does th=
is work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as specified in 5.1?</div=
></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; You&#39;re right, Destination and sour=
ce IP addresses likely are the same in this case. Will add that the source =
UDP port number, along with the pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux=
 received BFD control packets. Would you agree that will be sufficient?=C2=
=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] Yes, I think that should work.=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Editorial<=
/div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] Agree with all c=
omments on this section.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br=
></div><div>- Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.</div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Accepted=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>- Document would benefit fr=
om a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that will happen once it gets to t=
he RFC editor.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Will certainly have=
 helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 1</div>=
<div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:mon=
ospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">&quot;Virtual eXtensible L=
ocal Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/rfc7348" title=3D"&quot;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network (VXLAN): =
A Framework for Overlaying Virtualized Layer 2 Networks over Layer 3 Networ=
ks&quot;" style=3D"font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pr=
e-wrap" target=3D"_blank">RFC7348</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-f=
amily:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">].  provides
an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
communicate in a data center network.</span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</di=
v><div>This is not accurate.=C2=A0 VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay=
 to decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the netwo=
rk.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggested te=
xt. Will change as follows:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quo=
t;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 prov=
ides</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual mac=
hines (VMs) to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate in a data center network.=
=C2=A0</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0&quot;Virtual eXtensible Lo=
cal Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 provides</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by=C2=
=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 decoupling the address space of the attached virtual h=
osts from that of the network.</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 7</div><div><=
br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-si=
ze:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VTEP&#39;s -&gt; VTEPs</span></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, thank you.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>

--00000000000075e4cf057aae9cd0--


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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bfd-large-packets@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-large-packets@ietf.org>
Subject: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
Thread-Topic: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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--_000_295F72CA5F0A44B1BA3CAB6E07B4E99Aciscocom_--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 17:28:55 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmVeyOhBNANTfG87VbNkwh5HqxZnFc7AzFcCLo_6UcHSMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
To: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Cc: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>
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Hi Anoop,
thank you for the discussion. Please find my responses tagged GIM3>>. Also,
attached diff and the updated working version of the draft. Hope we're
converging.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> Please see inline prefixed with [ag2].
>
> Thanks,
> Anoop
>
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:45 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Anoop,
>> thank you for the expedient response. I am glad that some of my responses
>> have addressed your concerns. Please find followup notes in-line tagged
>> GIM2>>. I've attached the diff to highlight the updates applied in the
>> working version. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Greg,
>>>
>>> Please see inline prefixed with [ag].
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Anoop
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>> many thanks for the thorough review and detailed comments. Please find
>>>> my answers, this time for real, in-line tagged GIM>>.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are my comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Anoop
>>>>>
>>>>> ==
>>>>>
>>>>> Philosophical
>>>>>
>>>>> Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard
>>>>> for running BFD on it?  Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is
>>>>> the official WG selection?  Is that going to be a separate document?
>>>>> GIM>> IS-IS is not on the Standard track either but that had not
>>>>> prevented IETF from developing tens of standard track RFCs using RFC 1142
>>>>> as the normative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified it as historical. A
>>>>> similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing RFC 3784 until it was
>>>>> obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand that Down Reference,
>>>>> i.e., using informational RFC as the normative reference, is not an unusual
>>>>> situation.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> [ag] OK.  I'm not an expert on this part so unless someone else that is
>>> an expert (chairs, AD?) can comment on it, I'll just let it go.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Technical
>>>>>
>>>>> Section 1:
>>>>>
>>>>> This part needs to be rewritten:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> The individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or
>>>>> they could be in a single Layer 2 network. The VXLAN segments/overlays are
>>>>> overlaid on top of Layer 3 network. A VM can communicate with another VM
>>>>> only if they are on the same VXLAN segment.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> It's hard to parse and, given IRB,
>>>>>
>>>> GIM>> Would the following text be acceptable:
>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>    VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
>>>>    virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.  The
>>>>    individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
>>>>    could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
>>>>    are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.
>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>> VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting virtualized
>>>> hosts of a tenant. VXLAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and
>>>> Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs in
>>>> a multi-tenant environment, discussed in section 3 [RFC7348], by
>>>>  providing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.
>>>>
>>>
>>> [ag] This is a lot better.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
>>>> VXLAN segment.
>>>>>
>>>>> the last sentence above is wrong.
>>>>>
>>>> GIM>> Section 4 in RFC 7348 states:
>>>> Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communicate with each other.
>>>>
>>>
>>> [ag] VMs on different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so
>>> even RFC 7348 is wrong.  Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- "In
>>> the absence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...".
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Section 3:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>>> may not support L3.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP
>>>>> addresses/configuration?
>>>>>
>>>> GIM>> Would re-word as follows:
>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>>  may not support L3.
>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>> Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not support
>>>> L3.
>>>>
>>>
>>> [ag] I still don't understand this.  What does it mean for a VM to not
>>> support L3?  No IP address, no default GW, something else?
>>>
>> GIM2>> VM communicates with its VTEP which, in turn, originates VXLAN
>> tunnel. VM is not required to have IP address as it is VTEP's IP address
>> that VM's MAC is associated with. As for gateway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN
>> gateway as the device that forwards traffice between VXLAN and non-VXLAN
>> domains. Considering all that, would the following change be acceptable:
>> OLD TEXT:
>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>  may not support L3.
>> NEW TEXT:
>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have an
>> IP address assigned.
>>
>
> [ag2] Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deployments have
> VMs without an IP address)?  Normally I would think VMs would have an IP
> address.  It's just that they are segregated into segments and, without an
> intervening router, they are restricted to communicate only within their
> subnet.
>
GIM3>> Would the following text be acceptable:

Deployments might have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have an IP
address assigned or,
in other cases, VMs are assigned IP address but are restricted to
communicate only within their subnet.


>>>
>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize faults though it
>>>>> requires additional consideration.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> What are the additional considerations?
>>>>>
>>>> GIM>> For example, coordination of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> [ag] Can we mention them in the draft?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader
>>>>> would like to know more about service nodes.
>>>>>
>>>> GIM>> I have to admit that I don't find how RFC 8293  A Framework for
>>>> Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related to this
>>>> document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the
>>>> document.
>>>>
>>>
>>> [ag] The RFC discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned
>>> here.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Section 4
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> Separate BFD sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and
>>>>> IP2) for monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> IMO, the document should mention that this could lead to scaling
>>>>> issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNIs.
>>>>> Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not even
>>>>> exist on the destination VTEP.  Finally, what is the benefit of doing
>>>>> this?  There may be certain corner cases where it's useful (vs a single BFD
>>>>> session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be good to explain
>>>>> what those are.
>>>>>
>>>> GIM>> Will add text in the Security Considerations section that VTEPs
>>>> should have limit on number of BFD sessions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> [ag] I was hoping for two things:
>>> - A mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is
>>> discussed.  (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)
>>>
>> GIM2>> I've added the following sentense in both places:
>> The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable upper bound on the number of
>> BFD sessions that can be created between the same pair of VTEPs.
>>
>
> [ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?
>
GIM>> I usually understand that as requirement to make it controllable,
have configurable limit. Thus it will be up to an network operator to set
the limit.

>
>
>> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>>
>> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's the
>> need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.
>>
>
> [ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one to
> monitor the liveliness of VMs.
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Sections 5.1 and 6.1
>>>>>
>>>>> In 5.1 we have
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the
>>>>> following format:
>>>>> ... Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP. Destination IP: IP
>>>>> address of the terminating VTEP.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In 6.1 we have
>>>>> >>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
>>>>> VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF
>>>>>
>>>>> packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
>>>>> packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[RFC5880 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880>].
>>>>>
>>>>> *For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified*
>>>>>
>>>>> *using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>>>>> present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN*
>>>>>
>>>>> *encapsulated packet.*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as
>>>>> specified in 5.1?
>>>>>
>>>> GIM>> You're right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are the
>>>> same in this case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with the
>>>> pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control packets.
>>>> Would you agree that will be sufficient?
>>>>
>>>
>>> [ag] Yes, I think that should work.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Editorial
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> [ag] Agree with all comments on this section.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> - Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.
>>>>>
>>>> GIM>> Accepted
>>>>
>>>>> - Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe
>>>>> that will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.
>>>>>
>>>> GIM>> Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Section 1
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348
>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348>]. provides an encapsulation
>>>>> scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to communicate in a data center
>>>>> network.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> This is not accurate.  VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay to
>>>>> decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the network.
>>>>>
>>>> GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text. Will change as follows:
>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>    "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
>>>>    communicate in a data center network.
>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>  "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by
>>>>   decoupling the address space of the attached virtual hosts from that
>>>> of the network.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Section 7
>>>>>
>>>>> VTEP's -> VTEPs
>>>>>
>>>> GIM>> Yes, thank you.
>>>>
>>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for the discussio=
n. Please find my responses tagged GIM3&gt;&gt;. Also, attached diff and th=
e updated working version of the draft. Hope we&#39;re converging.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed with [ag2].</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:45 AM Greg Mirs=
ky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for t=
he expedient=C2=A0response. I am glad that some=C2=A0of my responses have a=
ddressed your concerns. Please find followup notes in-line tagged GIM2&gt;&=
gt;. I&#39;ve attached the diff to highlight the updates applied in the wor=
king version. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.</div><div><br></=
div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed with [ag].=
</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>many thanks for th=
e thorough review and detailed comments. Please find my answers, this time =
for real, in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</di=
v><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, No=
v 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke=
.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Here=
 are my comments.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><di=
v><br></div><div>=3D=3D</div><div><br></div><div>Philosophical</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a s=
tandard for running BFD on it?=C2=A0 Should we define BFD over Geneve inste=
ad which is the official WG selection?=C2=A0 Is that going to be a separate=
 document?<br></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial, =E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93, Microsoft Yahei, Lucida Grande, Verdana, Lucida, Helvetica, sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; IS-IS is not on the Stan=
dard track either but that had not prevented IETF from developing tens of s=
tandard track RFCs using RFC 1142 as the normative reference until RFC 7142=
 re-classified it as historical. A similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE =
by publishing RFC 3784 until it was obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later.=
 I understand that Down Reference, i.e., using informational RFC as the nor=
mative reference, is not an unusual situation.</span></font></div></div></b=
lockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] OK.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not an exper=
t on this part so unless someone else that is an expert (chairs, AD?) can c=
omment on it, I&#39;ll just let it go.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Technical</div><div><=
br></div><div>Section 1:</div><div><br></div><div>This part needs to be rew=
ritten:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fo=
nt-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The
individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.

A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment. </span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>It&#39;s hard t=
o parse and, given IRB, </div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would the=
 following text be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.=
=C2=A0 The</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0individual racks may be part of a differe=
nt Layer 3 network, or they</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0could be in a single Lay=
er 2 network.=C2=A0 The VXLAN segments/overlays</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are =
overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnect=
ing virtualized=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">hosts of a tenant. VX=
LAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs =
in=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">a multi-tenant environment, discus=
sed in section 3 [RFC7348], by</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0provid=
ing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.</div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] This is a lot better.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div>=C2=A0<span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-=
space:pre-wrap">A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on th=
e same</span></div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VXLAN segment. </span><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>the last sentenc=
e above is wrong.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Section 4 in RFC=
 7348 states:</div><div>Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communic=
ate with=C2=A0each other.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] VMs o=
n different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so even RFC 7348 is=
 wrong.=C2=A0 Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- &quot;In the ab=
sence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...&quot;.</div><div>=
=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div>Section 3:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">=
Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</span></div><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">may not support L3.</span><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>A=
re you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP addresses/configurat=
ion?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would re-word as follows:</di=
v><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L=
2 capabilities that</div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div><div>NEW TEXT:=
</div><div>Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not s=
upport L3.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] I still don&#39;t understand this.=C2=A0 What does it mean fo=
r a VM to not support L3?=C2=A0 No IP address, no default GW, something els=
e?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; VM communicates wi=
th its VTEP which, in turn, originates VXLAN tunnel. VM is not required to =
have IP address as it is VTEP&#39;s IP address that VM&#39;s MAC is associa=
ted with. As for gateway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN gateway as the device th=
at forwards traffice between VXLAN and non-VXLAN domains. Considering all t=
hat, would the following change be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><di=
v><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that<=
/div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><di=
v>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not ha=
ve an IP address assigned.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>[ag2] Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deploy=
ments have VMs without an IP address)?=C2=A0 Normally I would think VMs wou=
ld have an IP address.=C2=A0 It&#39;s just that they are segregated into se=
gments and, without an intervening router, they are restricted to communica=
te only within their subnet.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
>GIM3&gt;&gt; Would the following text be acceptable:</div></div></div><blo=
ckquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Deployments might have VMs with only L2 capabilities =
and not have an IP address assigned or,</div></div></div><div><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div>in other cases, VMs are assigned IP address but are rest=
ricted to communicate only within their subnet.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div></div></di=
v></blockquote><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><=
br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-f=
amily:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Having a hierarch=
ical OAM model helps localize
faults though it requires additional consideration.</span><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>What are the additional considerations?</div></div></b=
lockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Luc=
ida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; For example, coordinat=
ion of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>[ag] Can we mention them in the draft?</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Would be useful=
 to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would like to know more =
about service nodes.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&qu=
ot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
GIM&gt;&gt; I have to admit that I don&#39;t find how RFC 8293=C2=A0=C2=A0A=
 Framework for Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related =
to this document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the =
document.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] The RF=
C discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned here.=C2=A0=C2=A0</=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sec=
tion 4</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon=
t-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Separate BFD
sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2) for
monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).</span><br></div><di=
v>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>IMO, the document should mention that this could l=
ead to scaling issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNI=
s.=C2=A0 Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not=
 even exist on the destination VTEP.=C2=A0 Finally, what is the benefit of =
doing this?=C2=A0 There may be certain corner cases where it&#39;s useful (=
vs a single BFD session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be goo=
d to explain what those are.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&q=
uot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; Will add text in the Security Considerations section th=
at VTEPs should have limit on number of BFD sessions.</span>=C2=A0</div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] I was hoping for two things:</div><div>- A =
mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is discussed.=
=C2=A0 (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)</div></div></=
div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve added the following sente=
nse in both places:</div><div>The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable u=
pper bound on the number of BFD sessions that can be created between the sa=
me pair of VTEPs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>[ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?</div></=
div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I usually understand th=
at as requirement to make it controllable, have configurable limit. Thus it=
 will be up to an network operator to set the limit.=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>- What is the benefit of running BFD p=
er VNI between a pair of VTEPs?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GI=
M2&gt;&gt; An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there&#39;s t=
he need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional=
.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag2] I&#39=
;m not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one to monitor=
 the liveliness of VMs.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sections 5.1 and 6.1</div><div><br></div><div=
>In 5.1 we have</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The i=
nner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the</span></div><div><span>foll=
owing format:</span><br class=3D"gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-61892482058=
5214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_33059050755031790=
58m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-n=
ewline"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.=
3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">...
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</span><br class=3D"gmai=
l-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-=
4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_212088=
9048547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div>=
<div><br></div><div>In 6.1 we have=C2=A0</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><=
pre class=3D"gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_49438050311=
85443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508=
565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;m=
argin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0)">Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF</pre><p=
re class=3D"gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_494380503118=
5443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_37383811839925085=
65gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;ma=
rgin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexi=
ng
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880" title=3D"&quot;Bidirectional Forwarding D=
etection (BFD)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">RFC5880</a>].  </pre></div><div><pr=
e class=3D"gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185=
443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_373838118399250856=
5gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;mar=
gin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:=
rgb(0,0,0)"><b>For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified</b></pr=
e></div><div><pre class=3D"gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-61892482058521478=
4m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_37=
38381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-si=
ze:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-be=
fore:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP=
 and the destination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</b></pre></div=
><div><pre class=3D"gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943=
805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_373838118=
3992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3=
333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:pa=
ge;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>encapsulated packet.</b></pre><br></div><div>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;</div><div>How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the sa=
me as specified in 5.1?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; You&#39;re=
 right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are the same in this cas=
e. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with the pair of IP addr=
esses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control packets. Would you agree =
that will be sufficient?=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] Yes,=
 I think that should work.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><=
br></div><div>Editorial</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>[ag] Agree with all comments on this section.=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>- Terminology section should be renamed=
 to acronyms.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Accepted=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>- D=
ocument would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that will =
happen once it gets to the RFC editor.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;=
&gt; Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></=
div><div>Section 1</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">&q=
uot;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [</span><a href=3D"=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348" title=3D"&quot;Virtual eXtensible Loca=
l Area Network (VXLAN): A Framework for Overlaying Virtualized Layer 2 Netw=
orks over Layer 3 Networks&quot;" style=3D"font-family:monospace;font-size:=
13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap" target=3D"_blank">RFC7348</a><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre=
-wrap">].  provides
an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
communicate in a data center network.</span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</di=
v><div>This is not accurate.=C2=A0 VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay=
 to decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the netwo=
rk.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggested te=
xt. Will change as follows:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quo=
t;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 prov=
ides</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual mac=
hines (VMs) to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate in a data center network.=
=C2=A0</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0&quot;Virtual eXtensible Lo=
cal Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 provides</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by=C2=
=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 decoupling the address space of the attached virtual h=
osts from that of the network.</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 7</div><div><=
br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-si=
ze:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VTEP&#39;s -&gt; VTEPs</span></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, thank you.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:14:42 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+-tSzyCKsQx9zTMjjTpwjF=tL2WOz7hNUff_KFQwL8n2Y+xUg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: rtg-bfd@ietf.org, nvo3@ietf.org
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Hi Greg,

Please see inline prefixed by [ag3].

Thanks,
Anoop

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:29 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Anoop,
> thank you for the discussion. Please find my responses tagged GIM3>>.
> Also, attached diff and the updated working version of the draft. Hope
> we're converging.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Greg,
>>
>> Please see inline prefixed with [ag2].
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Anoop
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:45 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Anoop,
>>> thank you for the expedient response. I am glad that some of my
>>> responses have addressed your concerns. Please find followup notes in-line
>>> tagged GIM2>>. I've attached the diff to highlight the updates applied in
>>> the working version. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Greg,
>>>>
>>>> Please see inline prefixed with [ag].
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Anoop
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>>> many thanks for the thorough review and detailed comments. Please find
>>>>> my answers, this time for real, in-line tagged GIM>>.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Greg
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here are my comments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Anoop
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Philosophical
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard
>>>>>> for running BFD on it?  Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is
>>>>>> the official WG selection?  Is that going to be a separate document?
>>>>>> GIM>> IS-IS is not on the Standard track either but that had not
>>>>>> prevented IETF from developing tens of standard track RFCs using RFC 1142
>>>>>> as the normative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified it as historical. A
>>>>>> similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing RFC 3784 until it was
>>>>>> obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand that Down Reference,
>>>>>> i.e., using informational RFC as the normative reference, is not an unusual
>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> [ag] OK.  I'm not an expert on this part so unless someone else that is
>>>> an expert (chairs, AD?) can comment on it, I'll just let it go.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Technical
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Section 1:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This part needs to be rewritten:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> The individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or
>>>>>> they could be in a single Layer 2 network. The VXLAN segments/overlays are
>>>>>> overlaid on top of Layer 3 network. A VM can communicate with another VM
>>>>>> only if they are on the same VXLAN segment.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> It's hard to parse and, given IRB,
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM>> Would the following text be acceptable:
>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>    VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
>>>>>    virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.  The
>>>>>    individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
>>>>>    could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
>>>>>    are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.
>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>> VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
>>>>> virtualized
>>>>> hosts of a tenant. VXLAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and
>>>>> Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs in
>>>>> a multi-tenant environment, discussed in section 3 [RFC7348], by
>>>>>  providing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ag] This is a lot better.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
>>>>> VXLAN segment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the last sentence above is wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM>> Section 4 in RFC 7348 states:
>>>>> Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communicate with each other.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ag] VMs on different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so
>>>> even RFC 7348 is wrong.  Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- "In
>>>> the absence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Section 3:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>>>> may not support L3.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP
>>>>>> addresses/configuration?
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM>> Would re-word as follows:
>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>>>  may not support L3.
>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>> Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not support
>>>>> L3.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ag] I still don't understand this.  What does it mean for a VM to not
>>>> support L3?  No IP address, no default GW, something else?
>>>>
>>> GIM2>> VM communicates with its VTEP which, in turn, originates VXLAN
>>> tunnel. VM is not required to have IP address as it is VTEP's IP address
>>> that VM's MAC is associated with. As for gateway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN
>>> gateway as the device that forwards traffice between VXLAN and non-VXLAN
>>> domains. Considering all that, would the following change be acceptable:
>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>  may not support L3.
>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have
>>> an IP address assigned.
>>>
>>
>> [ag2] Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deployments have
>> VMs without an IP address)?  Normally I would think VMs would have an IP
>> address.  It's just that they are segregated into segments and, without an
>> intervening router, they are restricted to communicate only within their
>> subnet.
>>
> GIM3>> Would the following text be acceptable:
>
> Deployments might have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have an IP
> address assigned or,
> in other cases, VMs are assigned IP address but are restricted to
> communicate only within their subnet.
>
>
[ag3] Yes, this is better.


>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize faults though it
>>>>>> requires additional consideration.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> What are the additional considerations?
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM>> For example, coordination of BFD intervals across the OAM
>>>>> layers.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ag] Can we mention them in the draft?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader
>>>>>> would like to know more about service nodes.
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM>> I have to admit that I don't find how RFC 8293  A Framework for
>>>>> Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related to this
>>>>> document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the
>>>>> document.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ag] The RFC discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Section 4
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> Separate BFD sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and
>>>>>> IP2) for monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> IMO, the document should mention that this could lead to scaling
>>>>>> issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNIs.
>>>>>> Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not even
>>>>>> exist on the destination VTEP.  Finally, what is the benefit of doing
>>>>>> this?  There may be certain corner cases where it's useful (vs a single BFD
>>>>>> session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be good to explain
>>>>>> what those are.
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM>> Will add text in the Security Considerations section that VTEPs
>>>>> should have limit on number of BFD sessions.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ag] I was hoping for two things:
>>>> - A mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is
>>>> discussed.  (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)
>>>>
>>> GIM2>> I've added the following sentense in both places:
>>> The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable upper bound on the number of
>>> BFD sessions that can be created between the same pair of VTEPs.
>>>
>>
>> [ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?
>>
> GIM>> I usually understand that as requirement to make it controllable,
> have configurable limit. Thus it will be up to an network operator to set
> the limit.
>
>>
>>
>>> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>>>
>>> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's the
>>> need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.
>>>
>>
>> [ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one
>> to monitor the liveliness of VMs.
>>
>
[ag3] I think you missed responding to this.  I'm not sure of the value of
running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.  What am I getting that is not covered
by running a single BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?


>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sections 5.1 and 6.1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In 5.1 we have
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the
>>>>>> following format:
>>>>>> ... Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP. Destination IP: IP
>>>>>> address of the terminating VTEP.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In 6.1 we have
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
>>>>>> VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF
>>>>>>
>>>>>> packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
>>>>>> packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[RFC5880 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880>].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>>>>>> present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *encapsulated packet.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as
>>>>>> specified in 5.1?
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM>> You're right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are the
>>>>> same in this case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with the
>>>>> pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control packets.
>>>>> Would you agree that will be sufficient?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ag] Yes, I think that should work.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Editorial
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> [ag] Agree with all comments on this section.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> - Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM>> Accepted
>>>>>
>>>>>> - Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe
>>>>>> that will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM>> Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Section 1
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348
>>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348>]. provides an encapsulation
>>>>>> scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to communicate in a data center
>>>>>> network.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> This is not accurate.  VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay to
>>>>>> decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the network.
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text. Will change as follows:
>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>    "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>>>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
>>>>>    communicate in a data center network.
>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>>  "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>>>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by
>>>>>   decoupling the address space of the attached virtual hosts from that
>>>>> of the network.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Section 7
>>>>>>
>>>>>> VTEP's -> VTEPs
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM>> Yes, thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed by =
[ag3].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:29 PM Greg=
 Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for the discussion. Please find my re=
sponses tagged GIM3&gt;&gt;. Also, attached diff and the updated working ve=
rsion of the draft. Hope we&#39;re converging.</div><div><br></div><div>Reg=
ards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">O=
n Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@=
alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi=
 Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed with [ag2].</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:45 AM Greg Mirs=
ky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for t=
he expedient=C2=A0response. I am glad that some=C2=A0of my responses have a=
ddressed your concerns. Please find followup notes in-line tagged GIM2&gt;&=
gt;. I&#39;ve attached the diff to highlight the updates applied in the wor=
king version. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.</div><div><br></=
div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed with [ag].=
</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>many thanks for th=
e thorough review and detailed comments. Please find my answers, this time =
for real, in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</di=
v><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, No=
v 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke=
.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Here=
 are my comments.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><di=
v><br></div><div>=3D=3D</div><div><br></div><div>Philosophical</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a s=
tandard for running BFD on it?=C2=A0 Should we define BFD over Geneve inste=
ad which is the official WG selection?=C2=A0 Is that going to be a separate=
 document?<br></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial, =E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93, Microsoft Yahei, Lucida Grande, Verdana, Lucida, Helvetica, sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; IS-IS is not on the Stan=
dard track either but that had not prevented IETF from developing tens of s=
tandard track RFCs using RFC 1142 as the normative reference until RFC 7142=
 re-classified it as historical. A similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE =
by publishing RFC 3784 until it was obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later.=
 I understand that Down Reference, i.e., using informational RFC as the nor=
mative reference, is not an unusual situation.</span></font></div></div></b=
lockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] OK.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not an exper=
t on this part so unless someone else that is an expert (chairs, AD?) can c=
omment on it, I&#39;ll just let it go.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Technical</div><div><=
br></div><div>Section 1:</div><div><br></div><div>This part needs to be rew=
ritten:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fo=
nt-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The
individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.

A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment. </span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>It&#39;s hard t=
o parse and, given IRB, </div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would the=
 following text be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.=
=C2=A0 The</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0individual racks may be part of a differe=
nt Layer 3 network, or they</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0could be in a single Lay=
er 2 network.=C2=A0 The VXLAN segments/overlays</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are =
overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnect=
ing virtualized=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">hosts of a tenant. VX=
LAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs =
in=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">a multi-tenant environment, discus=
sed in section 3 [RFC7348], by</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0provid=
ing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.</div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] This is a lot better.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div>=C2=A0<span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-=
space:pre-wrap">A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on th=
e same</span></div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VXLAN segment. </span><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>the last sentenc=
e above is wrong.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Section 4 in RFC=
 7348 states:</div><div>Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communic=
ate with=C2=A0each other.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] VMs o=
n different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so even RFC 7348 is=
 wrong.=C2=A0 Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- &quot;In the ab=
sence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...&quot;.</div><div>=
=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div>Section 3:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">=
Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</span></div><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">may not support L3.</span><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>A=
re you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP addresses/configurat=
ion?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would re-word as follows:</di=
v><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L=
2 capabilities that</div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div><div>NEW TEXT:=
</div><div>Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not s=
upport L3.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] I still don&#39;t understand this.=C2=A0 What does it mean fo=
r a VM to not support L3?=C2=A0 No IP address, no default GW, something els=
e?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; VM communicates wi=
th its VTEP which, in turn, originates VXLAN tunnel. VM is not required to =
have IP address as it is VTEP&#39;s IP address that VM&#39;s MAC is associa=
ted with. As for gateway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN gateway as the device th=
at forwards traffice between VXLAN and non-VXLAN domains. Considering all t=
hat, would the following change be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><di=
v><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that<=
/div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><di=
v>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not ha=
ve an IP address assigned.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>[ag2] Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deploy=
ments have VMs without an IP address)?=C2=A0 Normally I would think VMs wou=
ld have an IP address.=C2=A0 It&#39;s just that they are segregated into se=
gments and, without an intervening router, they are restricted to communica=
te only within their subnet.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
>GIM3&gt;&gt; Would the following text be acceptable:</div></div></div><blo=
ckquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Deployments might have VMs with only L2 capabilities =
and not have an IP address assigned or,</div></div></div><div><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div>in other cases, VMs are assigned IP address but are rest=
ricted to communicate only within their subnet.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div></div></di=
v></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag3] Yes, this is be=
tter.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div=
>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospa=
ce;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Having a hierarchical OAM mode=
l helps localize
faults though it requires additional consideration.</span><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>What are the additional considerations?</div></div></b=
lockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Luc=
ida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; For example, coordinat=
ion of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>[ag] Can we mention them in the draft?</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Would be useful=
 to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would like to know more =
about service nodes.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&qu=
ot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
GIM&gt;&gt; I have to admit that I don&#39;t find how RFC 8293=C2=A0=C2=A0A=
 Framework for Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related =
to this document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the =
document.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] The RF=
C discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned here.=C2=A0=C2=A0</=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sec=
tion 4</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon=
t-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Separate BFD
sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2) for
monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).</span><br></div><di=
v>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>IMO, the document should mention that this could l=
ead to scaling issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNI=
s.=C2=A0 Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not=
 even exist on the destination VTEP.=C2=A0 Finally, what is the benefit of =
doing this?=C2=A0 There may be certain corner cases where it&#39;s useful (=
vs a single BFD session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be goo=
d to explain what those are.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&q=
uot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; Will add text in the Security Considerations section th=
at VTEPs should have limit on number of BFD sessions.</span>=C2=A0</div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] I was hoping for two things:</div><div>- A =
mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is discussed.=
=C2=A0 (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)</div></div></=
div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve added the following sente=
nse in both places:</div><div>The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable u=
pper bound on the number of BFD sessions that can be created between the sa=
me pair of VTEPs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>[ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?</div></=
div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I usually understand th=
at as requirement to make it controllable, have configurable limit. Thus it=
 will be up to an network operator to set the limit.=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>- What is the benefit of running BFD p=
er VNI between a pair of VTEPs?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GI=
M2&gt;&gt; An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there&#39;s t=
he need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional=
.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag2] I&#39=
;m not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one to monitor=
 the liveliness of VMs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag3] I think you missed re=
sponding to this.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not sure of the value of running BFD per VN=
I between VTEPs.=C2=A0 What am I getting that is not covered by running a s=
ingle BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sections 5.1 and 6.1</div><=
div><br></div><div>In 5.1 we have</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-spa=
ce:pre-wrap">The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the</span></d=
iv><div><span>following format:</span><br class=3D"m_6234960196044538392gma=
il-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_=
-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_21208=
89048547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0=
,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">...
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</span><br class=3D"m_62=
34960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805=
031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_373838118399=
2508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><d=
iv>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>In 6.1 we have=C2=A0</div><div>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;</div><div><pre class=3D"m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-69951231097=
13790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763=
599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gma=
il-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;d=
isplay:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Since multiple BFD =
sessions may be running between two
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF</pre><p=
re class=3D"m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-61892482058=
5214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_33059050755031790=
58m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;br=
eak-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">packets to the proper session.  The proce=
dure for demultiplexing
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880" title=3D"&quot;Bidirectional Forwarding D=
etection (BFD)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">RFC5880</a>].  </pre></div><div><pr=
e class=3D"m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585=
214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_330590507550317905=
8m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;bre=
ak-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>For such packets, the BFD session MUST =
be identified</b></pre></div><div><pre class=3D"m_6234960196044538392gmail-=
m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-40=
14731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_21208890=
48547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margi=
n-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>us=
ing the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</b></pre></div=
><div><pre class=3D"m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618=
924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_330590507=
5503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" st=
yle=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-=
block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>encapsulated packet.</b></pre>=
<br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>How does this work if the source IP a=
nd dest IP are the same as specified in 5.1?</div></div></blockquote><div>G=
IM&gt;&gt; You&#39;re right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are=
 the same in this case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along wit=
h the pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control pack=
ets. Would you agree that will be sufficient?=C2=A0</div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>[ag] Yes, I think that should work.=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Editorial</div></div></blockquote></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>[ag] Agree with all comments on this section.=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>- Terminology sec=
tion should be renamed to acronyms.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt=
; Accepted=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div>- Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub=
, but maybe that will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.</div></div></b=
lockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs an=
d RFC editor.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 1</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">&quot;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLA=
N) [</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348" title=3D"&quot;V=
irtual eXtensible Local Area Network (VXLAN): A Framework for Overlaying Vi=
rtualized Layer 2 Networks over Layer 3 Networks&quot;" style=3D"font-famil=
y:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap" target=3D"_blank">RFC=
7348</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.=
3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">].  provides
an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
communicate in a data center network.</span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</di=
v><div>This is not accurate.=C2=A0 VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay=
 to decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the netwo=
rk.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggested te=
xt. Will change as follows:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quo=
t;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 prov=
ides</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual mac=
hines (VMs) to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate in a data center network.=
=C2=A0</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0&quot;Virtual eXtensible Lo=
cal Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 provides</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by=C2=
=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 decoupling the address space of the attached virtual h=
osts from that of the network.</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 7</div><div><=
br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-si=
ze:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VTEP&#39;s -&gt; VTEPs</span></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, thank you.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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In-Reply-To: <81371D06-2A1A-480F-B65D-FAF04E408A04@cisco.com>
From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 14:00:57 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmU2a-rcJ-BeHfYJ4PYqtxKx6s0J4+kpJxL3bUVCqXDz=w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mpls] MPLS WG adoption call for draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: mpls-chairs@ietf.org, mpls@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Hi Carlos,
apologies for the prolonged silence. Thank you for your consideration of
the proposed new text and the acknowledgment that we're converging. Please
find the new comments in-line tagged GIM3>>.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 8:52 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> [Greg, Loa, responding to both on this single email reply]
>
> Hi, Loa,
>
> On Nov 6, 2018, at 1:49 PM, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:
>
> Carlos,
>
> Since the a wg adoption poll I read your comments as that we are doing
> progress, and that we can address the rest during the wg process,
> correct?
>
>
> I agree we are making progress, thank you. Most questions can be addresse=
d
> later, but only the very first question goes to the heart of an adoption
> poll. If we can close on that, the rest can be addressed later (note the
> same question is related also to the last question.)
>
> /Loa
>
>
> Hi, Greg,
>
> Thank you very much for your responses =E2=80=94 please see inline.
>
> On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:18 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Carlos,
> thank you for your consideration of my responses. Glad that we're
> converging. Please find additional notes in-line tagged GIM2>>.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 12:11 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Greg,
>>
>> Many thanks for your response and suggestions! Please see inline.
>>
>> On Nov 2, 2018, at 6:13 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Carlos,
>> thank you for your comments. Please find my notes, answers in-line tagge=
d
>> GIM>>.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 8:47 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
>> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Cc BFD WG
>>>
>>> It would be useful to understand the use case motivation or
>>> applicability of this draft, other than it can be done.
>>>
>> GIM>>  The motivation can be seen in the following (from another draft
>> that discusses OAM over G-ACh:
>>   In some
>>    environments, the overhead of extra IP/UDP encapsulations may be
>>    considered as overburden and make using more compact G-ACh
>>    encapsulation attractive.
>> Will add text in the draft.
>>
>>
>> CMP: Thank you very much. This is a good start, although it would be
>> useful to add precision into which environments specifically, and the
>> burden comparison between IP/UDP and G-ACh.
>>
> GIM2>> Thank you for agreeing to this, and I've added the text in the
> working verion. Will work on improving the text in the meantime.
>
>
> CMP: Sorry if I was not clear. Like I said, this is a good start and
> probably necessary (but not sufficient) text.
>
> CMP: Which environments specifically? At this point, the scope and target
> of the work is not clear to me. That was my question. Is this for MPLS-TP
> P2MP? If so, the underlying seems to have stalled:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7167/referencedby/
> CMP: I think these two questions should be answered: 1. What specific
> environments? 2. How current solutions do not solve it (i.e., what is and
> can we quantify the overburden)?
>
GIM3>> Andy Malis has pointed to the requirements for proactive OAM,
particularly monitoring path continuity, listed in Section 4.1 RFC 4687.
These are not specific to MPLS-TP but to OAM over p2mp MPLS LSP. The
following text has been added to the Security Considerations section in the
recenly uploaded -04 version of the draft:
   Also, BFD for p2mp MPLS LSP MUST follow the requirements listed in
   section 4.1 [RFC4687] to avoid congestion in the control plane or the
   data plane caused by the rate of generating BFD control packets.  An
   operator SHOULD consider the amount of extra traffic generated by
   p2mp BFD when selecting the interval at which the MultipointHead will
   transmit BFD control packets.  Also, the operator MAY consider the
   size of the packet the MultipointHead transmits periodically as using
   IP/UDP encapsulation adds up to 28 octets, which is more than 50% of
   BFD control packet length, comparing to G-ACh encapsulation.

>
>
>>
>>> I=E2=80=99m also increasingly concerned by confusing scope and definiti=
on of
>>> specifications.
>>>
>>> For example:
>>>
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd-04#section-3.2
>>>
>>> 3.2.  Non-IP Encapsulation of Multipoint BFD
>>>
>>>    Non-IP encapsulation for multipoint BFD over p2mp MPLS LSP MUST use
>>>    Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh) Label (GAL) [RFC5586] at the
>>>    bottom of the label stack followed by Associated Channel Header
>>>    (ACH).  Channel Type field in ACH MUST be set to BFD CV [RFC6428].
>>>
>>>
>>> First, there=E2=80=99s no definition for non-IP BFD in RFC 5586 =E2=80=
=94 only in RFC
>>> 5885.
>>>
>> GIM>> RFC 5586 defined the use of GAL. I think that this reference is
>> appropriate. I agree that the second reference should be to RFC 5885, no=
t
>> RFC 6428. Will make the change.
>>
>>
>> CMP: Thank you. However, RFC 5885 is in the context of PW VCCV =E2=80=94=
 is there
>> a missing definition in the specs for BFD over G-ACh generically?
>>
> GIM2>> I think that the following quote from RFC 5586 set the relationshi=
p
> between Channel Type field in PW ACH and G-ACh:
>     Channel Types for the Associated Channel Header are allocated from
>     the IANA "PW Associated Channel Type" registry [RFC4446].
> I understand that that there's one and only one registry and channel
> values are equally applicable to PW ACH and G-ACh. And full name of the
> registry now is MPLS Generalized Associated Channel (G-ACh) Types
> (including Pseudowire Associated Channel Types).
>
>
> CMP: That is correct. I was curious as to whether additional control plan=
e
> is needed for this support.
>
>
>> Second, the specification in RFC 6428 applies to MPLS Transport Profile
>>> only. NOT for MPLS, and explicitly NOT for P2MP!
>>>
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-1
>>>
>>>    This document specifies the BFD extension and behavior to satisfy th=
e
>>>    CC, proactive CV monitoring, and the RDI functional requirements for
>>>    both co-routed and associated bidirectional LSPs.  Supported
>>>    encapsulations include Generic Associated Channel Label (GAL) /
>>>    Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh), Virtual Circuit Connectivity
>>>    Verification (VCCV), and UDP/IP.  Procedures for unidirectional
>>>    point-to-point (P2P) and point-to-multipoint (P2MP) LSPs are for
>>>    further study.
>>>
>>>
>>> So, no, this does not work.
>>>
>>> RFC 6428 does not have scope for P2MP.
>>> And RFC 5586 does not specify anything for BFD. Instead, what needs to
>>> be cited (appropriately and expanded) is RFC 5885
>>>
>> GIM>> RFC 5586 specifies the use of GAL and G-ACh and the reference is
>> used in this context.
>>
>>
>> CMP: This is the same comment as above.
>>
>>
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-4
>>>       RFC 5884 - BFD CC in UDP/IP/LSP
>>>       RFC 5885 - BFD CC in G-ACh
>>>
>> GIM>> I'd point that it is for p2p BFD CC, and p2mp BFD uses different
>> from p2p BFD method to demultiplex BFD control packets.
>>
>>
>>
>> CMP: Apologies I did not understand this response.
>>
> GIM2>> Apologies for sending partial explanation. P2MP BFD cannot use You=
r
> Discriminator field to demultiplex the recieved BFD control packet. BFD f=
or
> Multipoint Networks defines the special procedure that requires the use o=
f
> Source ID. When the encapsulation of BFD control packet does not include
> IP/UDP header, the Source ID can be provided as Source MEP-ID TLV in
> MPLS-TP BFD CV. This draft proposes the new IP Address TLV for that. Thus=
 I
> have to correct myself and re-state the earlier text in the draft that th=
e
> value in the Channel Type filed of G-ACh must be MPLS-TP CV (0x0023).
>
>
> CMP: I understood you said above that the reference to RFC6428 was
> incorrect.
>
> CMP: Now, just to understand the approach:
>
> CMP: Are you suggesting that the IP header is not used with BFD and
> instead a new TLV (of which information structure?) carries the IP addres=
s
> that you removed before? Seems like a musical-chairs arrangement of the
> data. I may very likely be missing something. Apologies in advance if tha=
t
> is the case.
>
> CMP: Also, is the applicability MPLS-TP? What is the normative reference
> for MPLS-TP P2MP?
>
GIM3>> I should have explained why I think that MPLS-TP CV message (0x0023)
type is more suitable than BFD Control, PW-ACH encapsulation (without
IP/UDP Headers) (0x0007). The latter includes only the BFD control packet
while the format of the former includes Source MEP-ID TLV that immediately
follows the BFD control packet. And with the new proposed IP Address TLV
the 0x0023 G-ACh channel works better for p2mp BFD over p2mp MPLS LSP.
Alternative, of course, would be to define the new G-ACh type for p2mp BFD
over p2mp MPLS LSP.

>
> Thanks,
>
> Carlos.
>
>
>> CMP: Thanks again for considering the comment to improve the document.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Carlos.
>>
>>
>>       RFC 5085 - UDP/IP in G-ACh
>>>        MPLS-TP - CC/CV in GAL/G-ACh or G-ACh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> =E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro
>>>
>>> On Oct 13, 2018, at 4:24 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear WG Chairs, et al.,
>>> as the author of the BFD for Multipoint Networks over
>>> Point-to-Multi-Point MPLS LSP (draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd) I would like=
 to
>>> ask you to consider WG adoption call of the draft. The document address=
es
>>> non-IP encapsulation of p2mp BFD over MPLS LSP that may be useful if th=
e
>>> overhead of IP, particularly IPv6, encapsulation is the concern. The ba=
se
>>> specification of BFD for Multipoint Networks is at this time in IESG LC=
.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Greg
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mpls mailing list
>>> mpls@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,<div>apologies for the prolonged silence. Thank you for=
 your consideration of the proposed new text and the acknowledgment that we=
&#39;re converging.  Please find the new comments in-line tagged GIM3&gt;&g=
t;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 8:52 PM Carlos Pignat=
aro (cpignata) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com">cpignata@cisco.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
[Greg, Loa, responding to both on this single email reply]
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hi, Loa,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Nov 6, 2018, at 1:49 PM, Loa Andersson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi=
.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-8048155264872142171Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>Carlos,<br>
<br>
Since the a wg adoption poll I read your comments as that we are doing<br>
progress, and that we can address the rest during the wg process,<br>
correct?<br>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree we are making progress, thank you. Most questions can be addre=
ssed later, but only the very first question goes to the heart of an adopti=
on poll. If we can close on that, the rest can be addressed later (note the=
 same question is related
 also to the last question.)</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>/Loa<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hi, Greg,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you very much for your responses =E2=80=94 please see inline.</d=
iv>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:18 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimir=
sky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-8048155264872142171Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,
<div>thank you for your consideration of my responses. Glad that we&#39;re =
converging. Please find additional notes in-line tagged GIM2&gt;&gt;.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 12:11 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata=
) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisc=
o.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Hi Greg,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Many thanks for your response and suggestions! Please see inline.</div=
>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Nov 2, 2018, at 6:13 AM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimir=
sky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-8048155264872142171gmail-m_2939641602688262668Apple-i=
nterchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,
<div>thank you for your comments. Please find my notes, answers in-line tag=
ged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg<br>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 8:47 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata=
) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisc=
o.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Hi,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cc BFD WG</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It would be useful to understand the use case motivation or applicabil=
ity of this draft, other than it can be done.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>GIM&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 The motivation can be seen in the following (from an=
other draft that discusses OAM over G-ACh:</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0 In some</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0environments, the overhead of extra IP/UDP encapsulations=
 may be</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0considered as overburden and make using more compact G-AC=
h</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulation attractive.</div>
</div>
<div>Will add text in the draft.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: Thank you very much. This is a good start, although it would be u=
seful to add precision into which environments specifically, and the burden=
 comparison between IP/UDP and G-ACh.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>GIM2&gt;&gt; Thank you for agreeing to this, and I&#39;ve added the te=
xt in the working verion. Will work on improving the text in the meantime.<=
/div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: Sorry if I was not clear. Like I said, this is a good start and p=
robably necessary (but not sufficient) text.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: Which environments specifically? At this point, the scope and tar=
get of the work is not clear to me. That was my question. Is this for MPLS-=
TP P2MP? If so, the underlying seems to have stalled:=C2=A0</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7167/referencedby/" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7167/referencedby/</a></=
div>
<div>CMP: I think these two questions should be answered: 1. What specific =
environments? 2. How current solutions do not solve it (i.e., what is and c=
an we quantify the overburden)?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GI=
M3&gt;&gt; Andy Malis has pointed to the requirements for proactive OAM, pa=
rticularly monitoring path continuity, listed in Section 4.1 RFC 4687. Thes=
e are not specific to MPLS-TP but to OAM over p2mp MPLS LSP. The following =
text has been added to the Security Considerations section in the recenly u=
ploaded -04 version of the draft:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, BFD for=
 p2mp MPLS LSP MUST follow the requirements listed in</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0section 4.1 [RFC4687] to avoid congestion in the control plane or the</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0data plane caused by the rate of generating BFD contro=
l packets.=C2=A0 An</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0operator SHOULD consider the amo=
unt of extra traffic generated by</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0p2mp BFD when sele=
cting the interval at which the MultipointHead will</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
transmit BFD control packets.=C2=A0 Also, the operator MAY consider the</di=
v><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0size of the packet the MultipointHead transmits periodi=
cally as using</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0IP/UDP encapsulation adds up to 28 oc=
tets, which is more than 50% of</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD control packet l=
ength, comparing to G-ACh encapsulation.</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><=
div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I=E2=80=99m also increasingly concerned by confusing scope and definit=
ion of specifications.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd-04#s=
ection-3.2" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-mpls=
-p2mp-bfd-04#section-3.2</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3.2.=C2=A0 Non-IP Encapsulation of Multipoint BFD
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Non-IP encapsulation for multipoint BFD over p2mp MPLS LS=
P MUST use</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh) Label (GAL) [RFC5586] =
at the</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0bottom of the label stack followed by Associated Channel =
Header</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(ACH).=C2=A0 Channel Type field in ACH MUST be set to BFD=
 CV [RFC6428].</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-8048155264872142171gmail-m_2939641602688262668gmail-m=
_-5992720512572016398Apple-interchange-newline">
<br>
</div>
<div>First, there=E2=80=99s no definition for non-IP BFD in RFC 5586 =E2=80=
=94 only in RFC 5885.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>GIM&gt;&gt; RFC 5586 defined the use of GAL. I think that this referen=
ce is appropriate. I agree that the second reference should be to RFC 5885,=
 not RFC 6428. Will make the change.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: Thank you. However, RFC 5885 is in the context of PW VCCV =E2=80=
=94 is there a missing definition in the specs for BFD over G-ACh generical=
ly?</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>GIM2&gt;&gt; I think that the following quote from RFC 5586 set the re=
lationship between Channel Type field in PW ACH and G-ACh:</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Channel Types for the Associated Channel Header are allo=
cated from</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IANA &quot;PW Associated Channel Type&quot; registry=
 [RFC4446].=C2=A0</div>
<div>I understand that that there&#39;s one and only one registry and chann=
el values are equally applicable to PW ACH and G-ACh. And full name of the =
registry now is=C2=A0MPLS Generalized Associated Channel (G-ACh) Types (inc=
luding Pseudowire Associated Channel
 Types).</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: That is correct. I was curious as to whether additional control p=
lane is needed for this support.</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Second, the specification in RFC 6428 applies to=C2=A0MPLS Transport P=
rofile only. NOT for MPLS, and explicitly NOT for P2MP!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-1" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-1</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies the BFD extension and behavior to=
 satisfy the</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0CC, proactive CV monitoring, and the RDI functional requi=
rements for</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0both co-routed and associated bidirectional LSPs.=C2=A0 S=
upported</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulations include Generic Associated Channel Label (=
GAL) /</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh), Virtual Circuit Conne=
ctivity</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Verification (VCCV), and UDP/IP.=C2=A0 Procedures for uni=
directional</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0point-to-point (P2P) and point-to-multipoint (P2MP) LSPs =
are for</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0further study.</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-8048155264872142171gmail-m_2939641602688262668gmail-m=
_-5992720512572016398Apple-interchange-newline">
<br>
</div>
<div>So, no, this does not work.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>RFC 6428 does not have scope for P2MP.</div>
<div>And RFC 5586 does not specify anything for BFD. Instead, what needs to=
 be cited (appropriately and expanded) is RFC 5885</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>GIM&gt;&gt; RFC 5586 specifies the use of GAL and G-ACh and the refere=
nce is used in this context.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: This is the same comment as above.</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-4" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6428#section-4</a></div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0RFC 5884 - BFD CC in UDP/IP/LSP
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 5885 - BFD CC in G-ACh=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>GIM&gt;&gt; I&#39;d point that it is for p2p BFD CC, and p2mp BFD uses=
 different from p2p BFD method to demultiplex BFD control packets.=C2=A0</d=
iv>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
CMP: Apologies I did not understand this response.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>GIM2&gt;&gt; Apologies for sending partial explanation. P2MP BFD canno=
t use Your Discriminator field to demultiplex the recieved BFD control pack=
et. BFD for Multipoint Networks defines the special procedure that requires=
 the use of Source ID. When the
 encapsulation of BFD control packet does not include IP/UDP header, the So=
urce ID can be provided as Source MEP-ID TLV in MPLS-TP BFD CV. This draft =
proposes the new IP Address TLV for that. Thus I have to correct myself and=
 re-state the earlier text in the
 draft that the value in the Channel Type filed of G-ACh must be MPLS-TP CV=
 (0x0023).</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: I understood you said above that the reference to RFC6428 was inc=
orrect.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: Now, just to understand the approach:=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: Are you suggesting that the IP header is not used with BFD and in=
stead a new TLV (of which information structure?) carries the IP address th=
at you removed before? Seems like a musical-chairs arrangement of the data.=
 I may very likely be missing something.
 Apologies in advance if that is the case.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: Also, is the applicability MPLS-TP? What is the normative referen=
ce for MPLS-TP P2MP?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM3&gt;&gt; =
I should have explained why I think that MPLS-TP CV message (0x0023) type i=
s more suitable than BFD Control, PW-ACH encapsulation (without IP/UDP Head=
ers) (0x0007). The latter includes only the BFD control packet while the fo=
rmat of the former includes Source MEP-ID TLV that immediately follows the =
BFD control packet. And with the new proposed IP Address TLV the 0x0023 G-A=
Ch channel works better for p2mp BFD over p2mp MPLS LSP. Alternative, of co=
urse, would be to define the new G-ACh type for p2mp BFD over p2mp MPLS LSP=
.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"over=
flow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Carlos.</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>CMP: Thanks again for considering the comment to improve the document.=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Carlos.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 5085 - UDP/IP in G-ACh</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS-TP - CC/CV in GAL/G-ACh or G-ACh</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-8048155264872142171gmail-m_2939641602688262668gmail-m=
_-5992720512572016398Apple-interchange-newline">
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t=
ext-decoration:none">
Thanks,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t=
ext-decoration:none">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t=
ext-decoration:none">
=E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 13, 2018, at 4:24 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-8048155264872142171gmail-m_2939641602688262668gmail-m=
_-5992720512572016398Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear WG Chairs, et al.,
<div>as the author of the BFD for Multipoint Networks over Point-to-Multi-P=
oint MPLS LSP (draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd) I would like to ask you to consi=
der WG adoption call of the draft. The document addresses non-IP encapsulat=
ion of p2mp BFD over MPLS
 LSP that may be useful if the overhead of IP, particularly IPv6, encapsula=
tion is the concern. The base specification of BFD for Multipoint Networks =
is at this time in IESG LC.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--000000000000548c5a057b1fc5d3--


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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
Cc: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bfd-large-packets@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-large-packets@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BFD WG adoption for draft-haas-bfd-large-packets
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Reshad,

On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 01:58:25PM +0000, Reshad Rahman (rrahman) wrote:
> Hi authors.,
> 
> This document has passed adoption as a BFD WG document.
> 
> Please resubmit the doc as draft-ietf-bfd-large-packets. Please also note that while there was strong support for adopting the document, the following points/questions were raised and should be discussed further within the WG as the document progresses:
> 
>   1.  Is there necessity to send all packets as large packets or alternatively can that be done periodically?
>   2.  Authors should consider adding some text wrt use of BFD echo in the document

The intent is to do the draft-ietf-bfd republish next week and include text
to address these.

> Also, there was a suggestion made to use BFD for PMTUD (as opposed to the BFD session failing when expected MTU isn’t met). My take on this is that it falls out of our charter but the PMTUD use-case should be considered if/when we recharter, I’d like to hear your thoughts on this.

We believe that this is currently out of scope for the work.  However, as I
have discussed with Albert, it's not unusual for BFD features to be used in
unexpected ways.  If there continues to be interest in discussing this, it
might be worth adding an appendix covering this use case.

-- Jeff (speaking as an individual contributor)


From nobody Wed Nov 21 14:16:33 2018
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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org
Cc: draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited@ietf.org
Subject: Re: WG Adoption for draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted
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Working Group,

After discussing this with Reshad, the consensus is we have enough interest
to proceed in working group adoption.

Authors, please re-submit your draft as draft-ietf-bfd-unsolicited.

-- Jeff

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 11:52:32AM -0400, Jeffrey Haas wrote:
> Working Group,
> 
> Reviewing my notes, I was remiss in sending out an adoption request for
> draft-chen-bfd-unsolicted (Unsolicited BFD for Sessionless Applications).
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-bfd-unsolicited/
> 
> This relatively minor change from the RFC 5880 spec is implemented by at
> least one vendor for static route configuration.  Its security
> considerations already cover what I believe to be the main concern with the
> procedural change.
> 
> There's a minor point to resolve regarding the document's status - currently
> Informational - with our AD.
> 
> Please indicate whether you'd support adopting this draft as a Working Group
> document.
> 
> Authors, please indicate if you're aware of any applicable IPR on it.
> 
> This adoption request will also end on Friday, November 9, IETF 103 Friday.
> 
> -- Jeff & Reshad


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Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:27:55 -0500
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand
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Working Group,

After discussion among the chairs, we have decided to not adopt
draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand at this time.  Since the list response to the
adoption were positive, it is necessary to explain some of the reasoning for
this choice.

The chairs had private exchanges with individuals that did not wish to
publicly comment on their reasons for not supporting adoption.  We have
chosen to consider their comments and accept their reasoning for declining
to publicly comment.

Additionally, on more thorough review of the proposal by the chairs, it's
our opinion that the core procedures for BFD demand mode are not
necessarily in need of amending in this instance to warrant a new working
group task.  Errata would be considered for minor issues, if necessary.

-- Jeff


On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 06:24:31PM -0400, Jeffrey Haas wrote:
> Working Group,
> 
> The BFD chairs have received an adoption request for 
> "BFD in Demand Mode over Point-to-Point MPLS LSP"
> (draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand).
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand/
> 
> The adoption call will end on the Friday after IETF 103, November 9.
> 
> Note that there is are existing IPR statements on this draft:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3301/
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3104/
> 
> Please indicate to the mailing list whether you support adoption of this
> draft.
> 
> -- Jeff & Reshad


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:40:50 -0800
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Subject: Re: WG Adoption request for draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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--000000000000dd6b6d057b34714b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Dear WG Chairs,
I respectfully ask to summarize the comments that were shared with you and
to publish them to the WG without naming the authors.

And I have to admit that I don't understand your suggestion to use the
Errata. The procedures to apply the Demand mode described in the draft are
not in contradiction with RFC 5880, so the suggestion to use Errata
surprised me.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 2:28 PM Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

> Working Group,
>
> After discussion among the chairs, we have decided to not adopt
> draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand at this time.  Since the list response to the
> adoption were positive, it is necessary to explain some of the reasoning
> for
> this choice.
>
> The chairs had private exchanges with individuals that did not wish to
> publicly comment on their reasons for not supporting adoption.  We have
> chosen to consider their comments and accept their reasoning for declining
> to publicly comment.
>
> Additionally, on more thorough review of the proposal by the chairs, it's
> our opinion that the core procedures for BFD demand mode are not
> necessarily in need of amending in this instance to warrant a new working
> group task.  Errata would be considered for minor issues, if necessary.
>
> -- Jeff
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 06:24:31PM -0400, Jeffrey Haas wrote:
> > Working Group,
> >
> > The BFD chairs have received an adoption request for
> > "BFD in Demand Mode over Point-to-Point MPLS LSP"
> > (draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand).
> >
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand/
> >
> > The adoption call will end on the Friday after IETF 103, November 9.
> >
> > Note that there is are existing IPR statements on this draft:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3301/
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3104/
> >
> > Please indicate to the mailing list whether you support adoption of this
> > draft.
> >
> > -- Jeff & Reshad
>
>

--000000000000dd6b6d057b34714b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear WG Chairs,<div>I respectfully ask to summarize the co=
mments that were shared with you and to=C2=A0publish them to the WG without=
 naming the authors.</div><div><br></div><div>And I have to admit that I do=
n&#39;t understand your suggestion to use the Errata. The procedures to app=
ly the Demand mode described in the draft are not in contradiction with RFC=
 5880, so the suggestion to use Errata surprised me.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 2:28 PM Jeffrey Haas &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">Working Group,<br>
<br>
After discussion among the chairs, we have decided to not adopt<br>
draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand at this time.=C2=A0 Since the list response to=
 the<br>
adoption were positive, it is necessary to explain some of the reasoning fo=
r<br>
this choice.<br>
<br>
The chairs had private exchanges with individuals that did not wish to<br>
publicly comment on their reasons for not supporting adoption.=C2=A0 We hav=
e<br>
chosen to consider their comments and accept their reasoning for declining<=
br>
to publicly comment.<br>
<br>
Additionally, on more thorough review of the proposal by the chairs, it&#39=
;s<br>
our opinion that the core procedures for BFD demand mode are not<br>
necessarily in need of amending in this instance to warrant a new working<b=
r>
group task.=C2=A0 Errata would be considered for minor issues, if necessary=
.<br>
<br>
-- Jeff<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 06:24:31PM -0400, Jeffrey Haas wrote:<br>
&gt; Working Group,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The BFD chairs have received an adoption request for <br>
&gt; &quot;BFD in Demand Mode over Point-to-Point MPLS LSP&quot;<br>
&gt; (draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-dema=
nd/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand/</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The adoption call will end on the Friday after IETF 103, November 9.<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Note that there is are existing IPR statements on this draft:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3301/" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3301/</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3104/" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3104/</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Please indicate to the mailing list whether you support adoption of th=
is<br>
&gt; draft.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -- Jeff &amp; Reshad<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000dd6b6d057b34714b--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:25:04 -0800
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Subject: Fwd: IPR Disclosure Ciena Corporation's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication
To: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, bfd-chairs@ietf.org
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Dear All,
in light of the IPR Disclosure, I am concerned by its timing (3+ years
after the introduction of the document doesn't seem in line with RFC 8179)
and the FRAND licensing for an implementation. Because of the FRAND clause,
I oppose the progress of the draft further.

Regards,
Greg

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-ipr@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 10:53 AM
Subject: IPR Disclosure Ciena Corporation's Statement about IPR related to
draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication
To: <draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication@ietf.org>
Cc: <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, <ipr-announce@ietf.org>


Dear Mahesh Jethanandani, Ashesh Mishra, Ankur Saxena, Manav Bhatia:


An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled
"Optimizing BFD Authentication"
(draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication) was submitted to the IETF
Secretariat on  and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual
Property Rights Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3328/). The
title of the IPR disclosure is "Ciena Corporation's Statement about IPR
related to draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication"


Thank you

IETF Secretariat

--00000000000015a55c057b3510ab
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,<div>in light of the IPR Disclos=
ure, I am concerned by its timing (3+ years after the introduction of the d=
ocument doesn&#39;t seem in line with RFC 8179) and the FRAND licensing for=
 an implementation. Because of the FRAND clause, I oppose the progress of t=
he draft further.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg<br><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">---------- Forwarded message ---=
------<br>From: <strong class=3D"gmail_sendername" dir=3D"auto">IETF Secret=
ariat</strong> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-ipr@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">ietf-ipr@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Mon, Nov 5, 2018=
 at 10:53 AM<br>Subject: IPR Disclosure Ciena Corporation&#39;s Statement a=
bout IPR related to draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication<br>To:  &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>Cc=
:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-bfd@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;,  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipr-announce@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>ipr-announce@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br>Dear Mahesh Jethanandani, A=
shesh Mishra, Ankur Saxena, Manav Bhatia:<br>
<br>
<br>
An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled<br>
&quot;Optimizing BFD Authentication&quot;<br>
(draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication) was submitted to the IETF<br>
Secretariat on=C2=A0 and has been posted on the &quot;IETF Page of Intellec=
tual<br>
Property Rights Disclosures&quot; (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/=
ipr/3328/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/ipr/3328/</a>). The<br>
title of the IPR disclosure is &quot;Ciena Corporation&#39;s Statement abou=
t IPR<br>
related to draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication&quot;<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you<br>
<br>
IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
</div></div></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:36:18 -0800
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Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
To: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
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Hi Anoop,
apologies for the miss. Is it the last outstanding? Let's bring it to the
front then.

- What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>>>
>>> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's the
>>> need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.
>>>
>>
>> [ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one
>> to monitor the liveliness of VMs.
>>
>
[ag3] I think you missed responding to this.  I'm not sure of the value of
running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.  What am I getting that is not covered
by running a single BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?

GIM3>> I've misspoken. Non-zero VNI is recommended to be used to
demultiplex BFD sessions between the same VTEPs. In section 6.1:
   The procedure for demultiplexing
   packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from
   [RFC5880].  For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified
   using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
   present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN
   encapsulated packet.  The VNI of the packet SHOULD be used to derive
   interface-related information for demultiplexing the packet.

Hope that clarifies the use of non-zero VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of a BFD
control packet.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 12:14 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> Please see inline prefixed by [ag3].
>
> Thanks,
> Anoop
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:29 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Anoop,
>> thank you for the discussion. Please find my responses tagged GIM3>>.
>> Also, attached diff and the updated working version of the draft. Hope
>> we're converging.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Greg,
>>>
>>> Please see inline prefixed with [ag2].
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Anoop
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:45 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>> thank you for the expedient response. I am glad that some of my
>>>> responses have addressed your concerns. Please find followup notes in-line
>>>> tagged GIM2>>. I've attached the diff to highlight the updates applied in
>>>> the working version. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Greg,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please see inline prefixed with [ag].
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Anoop
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>>>> many thanks for the thorough review and detailed comments. Please
>>>>>> find my answers, this time for real, in-line tagged GIM>>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here are my comments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Anoop
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Philosophical
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a
>>>>>>> standard for running BFD on it?  Should we define BFD over Geneve instead
>>>>>>> which is the official WG selection?  Is that going to be a separate
>>>>>>> document?
>>>>>>> GIM>> IS-IS is not on the Standard track either but that had not
>>>>>>> prevented IETF from developing tens of standard track RFCs using RFC 1142
>>>>>>> as the normative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified it as historical. A
>>>>>>> similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing RFC 3784 until it was
>>>>>>> obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand that Down Reference,
>>>>>>> i.e., using informational RFC as the normative reference, is not an unusual
>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> [ag] OK.  I'm not an expert on this part so unless someone else that
>>>>> is an expert (chairs, AD?) can comment on it, I'll just let it go.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Technical
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Section 1:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This part needs to be rewritten:
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> The individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or
>>>>>>> they could be in a single Layer 2 network. The VXLAN segments/overlays are
>>>>>>> overlaid on top of Layer 3 network. A VM can communicate with another VM
>>>>>>> only if they are on the same VXLAN segment.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> It's hard to parse and, given IRB,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM>> Would the following text be acceptable:
>>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>>    VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
>>>>>>    virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.  The
>>>>>>    individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or
>>>>>> they
>>>>>>    could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
>>>>>>    are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.
>>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>>> VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
>>>>>> virtualized
>>>>>> hosts of a tenant. VXLAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and
>>>>>> Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs in
>>>>>> a multi-tenant environment, discussed in section 3 [RFC7348], by
>>>>>>  providing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [ag] This is a lot better.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
>>>>>> VXLAN segment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the last sentence above is wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM>> Section 4 in RFC 7348 states:
>>>>>> Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communicate with each
>>>>>> other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [ag] VMs on different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so
>>>>> even RFC 7348 is wrong.  Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- "In
>>>>> the absence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Section 3:
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>>>>> may not support L3.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP
>>>>>>> addresses/configuration?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM>> Would re-word as follows:
>>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>>>>  may not support L3.
>>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>>> Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not
>>>>>> support L3.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [ag] I still don't understand this.  What does it mean for a VM to not
>>>>> support L3?  No IP address, no default GW, something else?
>>>>>
>>>> GIM2>> VM communicates with its VTEP which, in turn, originates VXLAN
>>>> tunnel. VM is not required to have IP address as it is VTEP's IP address
>>>> that VM's MAC is associated with. As for gateway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN
>>>> gateway as the device that forwards traffice between VXLAN and non-VXLAN
>>>> domains. Considering all that, would the following change be acceptable:
>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>>  may not support L3.
>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have
>>>> an IP address assigned.
>>>>
>>>
>>> [ag2] Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deployments have
>>> VMs without an IP address)?  Normally I would think VMs would have an IP
>>> address.  It's just that they are segregated into segments and, without an
>>> intervening router, they are restricted to communicate only within their
>>> subnet.
>>>
>> GIM3>> Would the following text be acceptable:
>>
>> Deployments might have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have an IP
>> address assigned or,
>> in other cases, VMs are assigned IP address but are restricted to
>> communicate only within their subnet.
>>
>>
> [ag3] Yes, this is better.
>
>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize faults though it
>>>>>>> requires additional consideration.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> What are the additional considerations?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM>> For example, coordination of BFD intervals across the OAM
>>>>>> layers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [ag] Can we mention them in the draft?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader
>>>>>>> would like to know more about service nodes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM>> I have to admit that I don't find how RFC 8293  A Framework for
>>>>>> Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related to this
>>>>>> document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the
>>>>>> document.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [ag] The RFC discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned
>>>>> here.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Section 4
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> Separate BFD sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and
>>>>>>> IP2) for monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> IMO, the document should mention that this could lead to scaling
>>>>>>> issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNIs.
>>>>>>> Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not even
>>>>>>> exist on the destination VTEP.  Finally, what is the benefit of doing
>>>>>>> this?  There may be certain corner cases where it's useful (vs a single BFD
>>>>>>> session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be good to explain
>>>>>>> what those are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM>> Will add text in the Security Considerations section that VTEPs
>>>>>> should have limit on number of BFD sessions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [ag] I was hoping for two things:
>>>>> - A mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is
>>>>> discussed.  (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)
>>>>>
>>>> GIM2>> I've added the following sentense in both places:
>>>> The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable upper bound on the number
>>>> of BFD sessions that can be created between the same pair of VTEPs.
>>>>
>>>
>>> [ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?
>>>
>> GIM>> I usually understand that as requirement to make it controllable,
>> have configurable limit. Thus it will be up to an network operator to set
>> the limit.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>>>>
>>>> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's the
>>>> need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.
>>>>
>>>
>>> [ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one
>>> to monitor the liveliness of VMs.
>>>
>>
> [ag3] I think you missed responding to this.  I'm not sure of the value of
> running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.  What am I getting that is not covered
> by running a single BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sections 5.1 and 6.1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In 5.1 we have
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the
>>>>>>> following format:
>>>>>>> ... Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP. Destination IP:
>>>>>>> IP address of the terminating VTEP.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In 6.1 we have
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
>>>>>>> VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
>>>>>>> packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[RFC5880 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880>].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>>>>>>> present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *encapsulated packet.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as
>>>>>>> specified in 5.1?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM>> You're right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are
>>>>>> the same in this case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with
>>>>>> the pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control
>>>>>> packets. Would you agree that will be sufficient?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [ag] Yes, I think that should work.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Editorial
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> [ag] Agree with all comments on this section.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM>> Accepted
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe
>>>>>>> that will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM>> Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Section 1
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348
>>>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348>]. provides an encapsulation
>>>>>>> scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to communicate in a data center
>>>>>>> network.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> This is not accurate.  VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay to
>>>>>>> decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the network.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text. Will change as follows:
>>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>>    "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].
>>>>>> provides
>>>>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
>>>>>>    communicate in a data center network.
>>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>>>  "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>>>>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by
>>>>>>   decoupling the address space of the attached virtual hosts from
>>>>>> that of the network.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Section 7
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> VTEP's -> VTEPs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM>> Yes, thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>apologies for the miss. Is =
it the last outstanding? Let&#39;s bring it to the front then.</div><div><b=
r></div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div>- What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs=
?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; An alternative woul=
d be to run CFM between VMs, if there&#39;s the need to monitor liveliness =
of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag2] I&#39;m not sure how running per-VN=
I BFD between the VTEPs allows one to monitor the liveliness of VMs.=C2=A0<=
/div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div><div>[ag3] I think you missed responding to this.=C2=A0 I&#39;=
m not sure of the value of running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.=C2=A0 What am=
 I getting that is not covered by running a single BFD session with VNI 0 b=
etween the VTEPs?</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div><div>GIM3&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve mi=
sspoken. Non-zero VNI is recommended to be used to demultiplex BFD sessions=
 between the same VTEPs. In section 6.1:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The pr=
ocedure for demultiplexing</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0packets with Your Discrim=
inator equal to 0 is different from</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5880].=C2=A0=
 For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0present in the IP header carried by the payload of the V=
XLAN</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulated packet.=C2=A0 The VNI of the packe=
t SHOULD be used to derive</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0interface-related informa=
tion for demultiplexing the packet.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Hope tha=
t clarifies the use of non-zero VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of a BFD control=
 packet.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 12:14 PM Anoop =
Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu">anoop@alumni.duke.edu=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed by =
[ag3].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:29 PM Greg=
 Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">greg=
imirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you =
for the discussion. Please find my responses tagged GIM3&gt;&gt;. Also, att=
ached diff and the updated working version of the draft. Hope we&#39;re con=
verging.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop =
Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">ano=
op@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see i=
nline prefixed with [ag2].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop=
<br><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed=
, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:45 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for the expedient=C2=A0response. I am glad th=
at some=C2=A0of my responses have addressed your concerns. Please find foll=
owup notes in-line tagged GIM2&gt;&gt;. I&#39;ve attached the diff to highl=
ight the updates applied in the working version. Let me know if these are a=
cceptable changes.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30=
 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_=
blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Pl=
ease see inline prefixed with [ag].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><=
div>Anoop<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13=
, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
">Hi Anoop,<div>many thanks for the thorough review and detailed comments. =
Please find my answers, this time for real, in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke=
.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Here are my comments.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><div><br></div><div>=3D=3D</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Philosophical</div><div><br></div><div>Since VXLAN is not an IETF s=
tandard, should we be defining a standard for running BFD on it?=C2=A0 Shou=
ld we define BFD over Geneve instead which is the official WG selection?=C2=
=A0 Is that going to be a separate document?<br></div><div><font color=3D"#=
000000" face=3D"Arial, =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93, Microsoft Yahei, Lucida Grande, =
Verdana, Lucida, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">GIM&=
gt;&gt; IS-IS is not on the Standard track either but that had not prevente=
d IETF from developing tens of standard track RFCs using RFC 1142 as the no=
rmative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified it as historical. A similar =
path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing RFC 3784 until it was obsolet=
ed by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand that Down Reference, i.e., us=
ing informational RFC as the normative reference, is not an unusual situati=
on.</span></font></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag=
] OK.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not an expert on this part so unless someone else that =
is an expert (chairs, AD?) can comment on it, I&#39;ll just let it go.</div=
><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br>=
</div><div>Technical</div><div><br></div><div>Section 1:</div><div><br></di=
v><div>This part needs to be rewritten:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;whi=
te-space:pre-wrap">The
individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.

A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment. </span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>It&#39;s hard t=
o parse and, given IRB, </div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would the=
 following text be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.=
=C2=A0 The</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0individual racks may be part of a differe=
nt Layer 3 network, or they</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0could be in a single Lay=
er 2 network.=C2=A0 The VXLAN segments/overlays</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are =
overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnect=
ing virtualized=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">hosts of a tenant. VX=
LAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs =
in=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">a multi-tenant environment, discus=
sed in section 3 [RFC7348], by</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0provid=
ing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.</div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] This is a lot better.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div>=C2=A0<span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-=
space:pre-wrap">A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on th=
e same</span></div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VXLAN segment. </span><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>the last sentenc=
e above is wrong.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Section 4 in RFC=
 7348 states:</div><div>Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communic=
ate with=C2=A0each other.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] VMs o=
n different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so even RFC 7348 is=
 wrong.=C2=A0 Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- &quot;In the ab=
sence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...&quot;.</div><div>=
=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div>Section 3:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">=
Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</span></div><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">may not support L3.</span><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>A=
re you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP addresses/configurat=
ion?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would re-word as follows:</di=
v><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L=
2 capabilities that</div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div><div>NEW TEXT:=
</div><div>Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not s=
upport L3.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] I still don&#39;t understand this.=C2=A0 What does it mean fo=
r a VM to not support L3?=C2=A0 No IP address, no default GW, something els=
e?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; VM communicates wi=
th its VTEP which, in turn, originates VXLAN tunnel. VM is not required to =
have IP address as it is VTEP&#39;s IP address that VM&#39;s MAC is associa=
ted with. As for gateway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN gateway as the device th=
at forwards traffice between VXLAN and non-VXLAN domains. Considering all t=
hat, would the following change be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><di=
v><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that<=
/div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><di=
v>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not ha=
ve an IP address assigned.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>[ag2] Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deploy=
ments have VMs without an IP address)?=C2=A0 Normally I would think VMs wou=
ld have an IP address.=C2=A0 It&#39;s just that they are segregated into se=
gments and, without an intervening router, they are restricted to communica=
te only within their subnet.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
>GIM3&gt;&gt; Would the following text be acceptable:</div></div></div><blo=
ckquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Deployments might have VMs with only L2 capabil=
ities and not have an IP address assigned or,</div></div></div><div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div>in other cases, VMs are assigned IP address but ar=
e restricted to communicate only within their subnet.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div></di=
v></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag3] Yes, this=
 is better.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Having=
 a hierarchical OAM model helps localize
faults though it requires additional consideration.</span><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>What are the additional considerations?</div></div></b=
lockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Luc=
ida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; For example, coordinat=
ion of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>[ag] Can we mention them in the draft?</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Would be useful=
 to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would like to know more =
about service nodes.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&qu=
ot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
GIM&gt;&gt; I have to admit that I don&#39;t find how RFC 8293=C2=A0=C2=A0A=
 Framework for Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related =
to this document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the =
document.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] The RF=
C discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned here.=C2=A0=C2=A0</=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sec=
tion 4</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon=
t-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Separate BFD
sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2) for
monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).</span><br></div><di=
v>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>IMO, the document should mention that this could l=
ead to scaling issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNI=
s.=C2=A0 Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not=
 even exist on the destination VTEP.=C2=A0 Finally, what is the benefit of =
doing this?=C2=A0 There may be certain corner cases where it&#39;s useful (=
vs a single BFD session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be goo=
d to explain what those are.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&q=
uot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; Will add text in the Security Considerations section th=
at VTEPs should have limit on number of BFD sessions.</span>=C2=A0</div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] I was hoping for two things:</div><div>- A =
mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is discussed.=
=C2=A0 (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)</div></div></=
div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve added the following sente=
nse in both places:</div><div>The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable u=
pper bound on the number of BFD sessions that can be created between the sa=
me pair of VTEPs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>[ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?</div></=
div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I usually understand th=
at as requirement to make it controllable, have configurable limit. Thus it=
 will be up to an network operator to set the limit.=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>- What is the benefit of running BFD p=
er VNI between a pair of VTEPs?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GI=
M2&gt;&gt; An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there&#39;s t=
he need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional=
.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag2] I&#39=
;m not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one to monitor=
 the liveliness of VMs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag3] I think you missed re=
sponding to this.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not sure of the value of running BFD per VN=
I between VTEPs.=C2=A0 What am I getting that is not covered by running a s=
ingle BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Secti=
ons 5.1 and 6.1</div><div><br></div><div>In 5.1 we have</div><div>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-si=
ze:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD pay=
load has the</span></div><div><span>following format:</span><br class=3D"gm=
ail-m_6347882667904523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m=
_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305=
905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-=
interchange-newline"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;=
font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">...
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</span><br class=3D"gmai=
l-m_6347882667904523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-=
618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_330590=
5075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-in=
terchange-newline"></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>In 6.1 =
we have=C2=A0</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><pre class=3D"gmail-m_634788=
2667904523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-6189248205=
85214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179=
058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"=
font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;b=
reak-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Since multiple BFD sessions may be runni=
ng between two
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF</pre><p=
re class=3D"gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-699512=
3109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-40147318569=
97763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_21208890485470725=
97gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:=
0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">packets to the=
 proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880" title=3D"&quot;Bidirectional Forwarding D=
etection (BFD)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">RFC5880</a>].  </pre></div><div><pr=
e class=3D"gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123=
109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-401473185699=
7763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_212088904854707259=
7gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0=
px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>For such pac=
kets, the BFD session MUST be identified</b></pre></div><div><pre class=3D"=
gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-699512310971379099=
5m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_33=
05905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newp=
age" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:=
inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>using the inner headers=
, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</b></pre></div=
><div><pre class=3D"gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m=
_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-401=
4731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_212088904=
8547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin=
-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>enc=
apsulated packet.</b></pre><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>How does t=
his work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as specified in 5.1?</di=
v></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; You&#39;re right, Destination and sou=
rce IP addresses likely are the same in this case. Will add that the source=
 UDP port number, along with the pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demu=
x received BFD control packets. Would you agree that will be sufficient?=C2=
=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] Yes, I think that should work.=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Editorial<=
/div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] Agree with all c=
omments on this section.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br=
></div><div>- Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.</div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Accepted=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>- Document would benefit fr=
om a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that will happen once it gets to t=
he RFC editor.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Will certainly have=
 helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 1</div>=
<div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:mon=
ospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">&quot;Virtual eXtensible L=
ocal Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/rfc7348" title=3D"&quot;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network (VXLAN): =
A Framework for Overlaying Virtualized Layer 2 Networks over Layer 3 Networ=
ks&quot;" style=3D"font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pr=
e-wrap" target=3D"_blank">RFC7348</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-f=
amily:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">].  provides
an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
communicate in a data center network.</span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</di=
v><div>This is not accurate.=C2=A0 VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay=
 to decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the netwo=
rk.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggested te=
xt. Will change as follows:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quo=
t;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 prov=
ides</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual mac=
hines (VMs) to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate in a data center network.=
=C2=A0</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0&quot;Virtual eXtensible Lo=
cal Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 provides</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by=C2=
=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 decoupling the address space of the attached virtual h=
osts from that of the network.</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 7</div><div><=
br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-si=
ze:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VTEP&#39;s -&gt; VTEPs</span></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, thank you.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--000000000000d3916e057b360ec3--


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From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 22:59:56 -0800
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Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: rtg-bfd@ietf.org, nvo3@ietf.org
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Hi Greg,

See below prefixed with [ag4].

Thanks,
Anoop

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:36 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Anoop,
> apologies for the miss. Is it the last outstanding? Let's bring it to the
> front then.
>
> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>>>>
>>>> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's the
>>>> need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.
>>>>
>>>
>>> [ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one
>>> to monitor the liveliness of VMs.
>>>
>>
> [ag3] I think you missed responding to this.  I'm not sure of the value of
> running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.  What am I getting that is not covered
> by running a single BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?
>
> GIM3>> I've misspoken. Non-zero VNI is recommended to be used to
> demultiplex BFD sessions between the same VTEPs. In section 6.1:
>    The procedure for demultiplexing
>    packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from
>    [RFC5880].  For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified
>    using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>    present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN
>    encapsulated packet.  The VNI of the packet SHOULD be used to derive
>    interface-related information for demultiplexing the packet.
>
> Hope that clarifies the use of non-zero VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of a
> BFD control packet.
>

[ag4] This tells me how the VNI is used for BFD packets being
sent/received.  What is the use case/benefit of doing that?  I am creating
a special interface with VNI 0 just for BFD.  Why do I now need to run BFD
on any/all of the other VNIs?  As a developer, if I read this spec, should
I be building this capability or not?  Basically what I'm getting at is I
think the draft should recommend using VNI 0.  If there is a convincing use
case for running BFD over other VNIs serviced by that VTEP, then that needs
to be explained.  But as I mentioned before, this leads to scaling issues.
So given the scaling issues, it would be good if an implementation only
needed to worry about sending BFD messages on VNI 0.


>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 12:14 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Greg,
>>
>> Please see inline prefixed by [ag3].
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Anoop
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:29 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Anoop,
>>> thank you for the discussion. Please find my responses tagged GIM3>>.
>>> Also, attached diff and the updated working version of the draft. Hope
>>> we're converging.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Greg,
>>>>
>>>> Please see inline prefixed with [ag2].
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Anoop
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:45 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>>> thank you for the expedient response. I am glad that some of my
>>>>> responses have addressed your concerns. Please find followup notes in-line
>>>>> tagged GIM2>>. I've attached the diff to highlight the updates applied in
>>>>> the working version. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Greg
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Greg,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please see inline prefixed with [ag].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Anoop
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>>>>> many thanks for the thorough review and detailed comments. Please
>>>>>>> find my answers, this time for real, in-line tagged GIM>>.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here are my comments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Anoop
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Philosophical
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a
>>>>>>>> standard for running BFD on it?  Should we define BFD over Geneve instead
>>>>>>>> which is the official WG selection?  Is that going to be a separate
>>>>>>>> document?
>>>>>>>> GIM>> IS-IS is not on the Standard track either but that had not
>>>>>>>> prevented IETF from developing tens of standard track RFCs using RFC 1142
>>>>>>>> as the normative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified it as historical. A
>>>>>>>> similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing RFC 3784 until it was
>>>>>>>> obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand that Down Reference,
>>>>>>>> i.e., using informational RFC as the normative reference, is not an unusual
>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ag] OK.  I'm not an expert on this part so unless someone else that
>>>>>> is an expert (chairs, AD?) can comment on it, I'll just let it go.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Technical
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Section 1:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This part needs to be rewritten:
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> The individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or
>>>>>>>> they could be in a single Layer 2 network. The VXLAN segments/overlays are
>>>>>>>> overlaid on top of Layer 3 network. A VM can communicate with another VM
>>>>>>>> only if they are on the same VXLAN segment.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> It's hard to parse and, given IRB,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GIM>> Would the following text be acceptable:
>>>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>>>    VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
>>>>>>>    virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.  The
>>>>>>>    individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>    could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
>>>>>>>    are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.
>>>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>>>> VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
>>>>>>> virtualized
>>>>>>> hosts of a tenant. VXLAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and
>>>>>>> Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs in
>>>>>>> a multi-tenant environment, discussed in section 3 [RFC7348], by
>>>>>>>  providing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ag] This is a lot better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
>>>>>>> VXLAN segment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the last sentence above is wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GIM>> Section 4 in RFC 7348 states:
>>>>>>> Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communicate with each
>>>>>>> other.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ag] VMs on different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so
>>>>>> even RFC 7348 is wrong.  Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- "In
>>>>>> the absence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Section 3:
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>>>>>> may not support L3.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP
>>>>>>>> addresses/configuration?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GIM>> Would re-word as follows:
>>>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>>>>>  may not support L3.
>>>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>>>> Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not
>>>>>>> support L3.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ag] I still don't understand this.  What does it mean for a VM to
>>>>>> not support L3?  No IP address, no default GW, something else?
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM2>> VM communicates with its VTEP which, in turn, originates VXLAN
>>>>> tunnel. VM is not required to have IP address as it is VTEP's IP address
>>>>> that VM's MAC is associated with. As for gateway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN
>>>>> gateway as the device that forwards traffice between VXLAN and non-VXLAN
>>>>> domains. Considering all that, would the following change be acceptable:
>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>>>  may not support L3.
>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have
>>>>> an IP address assigned.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ag2] Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deployments have
>>>> VMs without an IP address)?  Normally I would think VMs would have an IP
>>>> address.  It's just that they are segregated into segments and, without an
>>>> intervening router, they are restricted to communicate only within their
>>>> subnet.
>>>>
>>> GIM3>> Would the following text be acceptable:
>>>
>>> Deployments might have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have an IP
>>> address assigned or,
>>> in other cases, VMs are assigned IP address but are restricted to
>>> communicate only within their subnet.
>>>
>>>
>> [ag3] Yes, this is better.
>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize faults though it
>>>>>>>> requires additional consideration.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> What are the additional considerations?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GIM>> For example, coordination of BFD intervals across the OAM
>>>>>>> layers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ag] Can we mention them in the draft?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader
>>>>>>>> would like to know more about service nodes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GIM>> I have to admit that I don't find how RFC 8293  A Framework
>>>>>>> for Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related to this
>>>>>>> document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the
>>>>>>> document.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ag] The RFC discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned
>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Section 4
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> Separate BFD sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and
>>>>>>>> IP2) for monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> IMO, the document should mention that this could lead to scaling
>>>>>>>> issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNIs.
>>>>>>>> Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not even
>>>>>>>> exist on the destination VTEP.  Finally, what is the benefit of doing
>>>>>>>> this?  There may be certain corner cases where it's useful (vs a single BFD
>>>>>>>> session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be good to explain
>>>>>>>> what those are.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GIM>> Will add text in the Security Considerations section that
>>>>>>> VTEPs should have limit on number of BFD sessions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ag] I was hoping for two things:
>>>>>> - A mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is
>>>>>> discussed.  (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM2>> I've added the following sentense in both places:
>>>>> The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable upper bound on the number
>>>>> of BFD sessions that can be created between the same pair of VTEPs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?
>>>>
>>> GIM>> I usually understand that as requirement to make it controllable,
>>> have configurable limit. Thus it will be up to an network operator to set
>>> the limit.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's the
>>>>> need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one
>>>> to monitor the liveliness of VMs.
>>>>
>>>
>> [ag3] I think you missed responding to this.  I'm not sure of the value
>> of running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.  What am I getting that is not
>> covered by running a single BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sections 5.1 and 6.1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In 5.1 we have
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the
>>>>>>>> following format:
>>>>>>>> ... Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP. Destination IP:
>>>>>>>> IP address of the terminating VTEP.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In 6.1 we have
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
>>>>>>>> VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
>>>>>>>> packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[RFC5880 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880>].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>>>>>>>> present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *encapsulated packet.*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as
>>>>>>>> specified in 5.1?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GIM>> You're right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are
>>>>>>> the same in this case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with
>>>>>>> the pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control
>>>>>>> packets. Would you agree that will be sufficient?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ag] Yes, I think that should work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Editorial
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ag] Agree with all comments on this section.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GIM>> Accepted
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe
>>>>>>>> that will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GIM>> Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Section 1
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348
>>>>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348>]. provides an encapsulation
>>>>>>>> scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to communicate in a data center
>>>>>>>> network.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> This is not accurate.  VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay to
>>>>>>>> decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the network.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text. Will change as follows:
>>>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>>>    "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].
>>>>>>> provides
>>>>>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
>>>>>>>    communicate in a data center network.
>>>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>>>>  "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>>>>>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>   decoupling the address space of the attached virtual hosts from
>>>>>>> that of the network.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Section 7
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> VTEP's -> VTEPs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GIM>> Yes, thank you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>See below prefixed with [ag4].=
</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:36 PM Greg Mirsky &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r">Hi Anoop,<div>apologies for the miss. Is it the last outstanding? Let&#3=
9;s bring it to the front then.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>- What is the benefit of =
running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?</div></div></div></div></block=
quote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if =
there&#39;s the need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, thi=
s is optional.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>[ag2] I&#39;m not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows o=
ne to monitor the liveliness of VMs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag3] I think =
you missed responding to this.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not sure of the value of runni=
ng BFD per VNI between VTEPs.=C2=A0 What am I getting that is not covered b=
y running a single BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div></div><div>GIM3&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve misspoken. Non-zero VNI is recomm=
ended to be used to demultiplex BFD sessions between the same VTEPs. In sec=
tion 6.1:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The procedure for demultiplexing</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different =
from</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5880].=C2=A0 For such packets, the BFD sess=
ion MUST be identified</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0using the inner headers, i.e.=
, the source IP and the destination IP</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0present in th=
e IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0enca=
psulated packet.=C2=A0 The VNI of the packet SHOULD be used to derive</div>=
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0interface-related information for demultiplexing the pack=
et.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Hope that clarifies the use of non-zero =
VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of a BFD control packet.</div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>[ag4] This tells me how the VNI is used for BFD =
packets being sent/received.=C2=A0 What is the use case/benefit of doing th=
at?=C2=A0 I am creating a special interface with VNI 0 just for BFD.=C2=A0 =
Why do I now need to run BFD on any/all of the other VNIs?=C2=A0 As a devel=
oper, if I read this spec, should I be building this capability or not?=C2=
=A0 Basically what I&#39;m getting at is I think the draft should recommend=
 using VNI 0.=C2=A0 If there is a convincing use case for running BFD over =
other VNIs serviced by that VTEP, then that needs to be explained.=C2=A0 Bu=
t as I mentioned before, this leads to scaling issues.=C2=A0 So given the s=
caling issues, it would be good if an implementation only needed to worry a=
bout sending BFD messages on VNI 0.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Regards=
,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tu=
e, Nov 20, 2018 at 12:14 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alum=
ni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Gre=
g,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed by [ag3].</div><div><br></=
div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:29 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for the discussion. Ple=
ase find my responses tagged GIM3&gt;&gt;. Also, attached diff and the upda=
ted working version of the draft. Hope we&#39;re converging.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed with [ag=
2].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><div dir=3D"ltr"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:45 =
AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>tha=
nk you for the expedient=C2=A0response. I am glad that some=C2=A0of my resp=
onses have addressed your concerns. Please find followup notes in-line tagg=
ed GIM2&gt;&gt;. I&#39;ve attached the diff to highlight the updates applie=
d in the working version. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.</div=
><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duk=
e.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixe=
d with [ag].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg=
 Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">greg=
imirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>many th=
anks for the thorough review and detailed comments. Please find my answers,=
 this time for real, in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>R=
egards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@=
alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><b=
r><div>Here are my comments.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Ano=
op</div><div><br></div><div>=3D=3D</div><div><br></div><div>Philosophical</=
div><div><br></div><div>Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be d=
efining a standard for running BFD on it?=C2=A0 Should we define BFD over G=
eneve instead which is the official WG selection?=C2=A0 Is that going to be=
 a separate document?<br></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial, =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93, Microsoft Yahei, Lucida Grande, Verdana, Lucida, Helvet=
ica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; IS-IS is not on=
 the Standard track either but that had not prevented IETF from developing =
tens of standard track RFCs using RFC 1142 as the normative reference until=
 RFC 7142 re-classified it as historical. A similar path was followed with =
IS-IS-TE by publishing RFC 3784 until it was obsoleted by RFC 5305 four yea=
rs later. I understand that Down Reference, i.e., using informational RFC a=
s the normative reference, is not an unusual situation.</span></font></div>=
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] OK.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not=
 an expert on this part so unless someone else that is an expert (chairs, A=
D?) can comment on it, I&#39;ll just let it go.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Technical<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Section 1:</div><div><br></div><div>This part need=
s to be rewritten:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Th=
e
individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.

A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment. </span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>It&#39;s hard t=
o parse and, given IRB, </div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would the=
 following text be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.=
=C2=A0 The</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0individual racks may be part of a differe=
nt Layer 3 network, or they</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0could be in a single Lay=
er 2 network.=C2=A0 The VXLAN segments/overlays</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are =
overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnect=
ing virtualized=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">hosts of a tenant. VX=
LAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs =
in=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">a multi-tenant environment, discus=
sed in section 3 [RFC7348], by</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0provid=
ing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.</div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] This is a lot better.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div>=C2=A0<span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-=
space:pre-wrap">A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on th=
e same</span></div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VXLAN segment. </span><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>the last sentenc=
e above is wrong.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Section 4 in RFC=
 7348 states:</div><div>Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communic=
ate with=C2=A0each other.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] VMs o=
n different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so even RFC 7348 is=
 wrong.=C2=A0 Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- &quot;In the ab=
sence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...&quot;.</div><div>=
=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div>Section 3:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">=
Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</span></div><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">may not support L3.</span><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>A=
re you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP addresses/configurat=
ion?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would re-word as follows:</di=
v><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L=
2 capabilities that</div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div><div>NEW TEXT:=
</div><div>Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not s=
upport L3.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] I still don&#39;t understand this.=C2=A0 What does it mean fo=
r a VM to not support L3?=C2=A0 No IP address, no default GW, something els=
e?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; VM communicates wi=
th its VTEP which, in turn, originates VXLAN tunnel. VM is not required to =
have IP address as it is VTEP&#39;s IP address that VM&#39;s MAC is associa=
ted with. As for gateway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN gateway as the device th=
at forwards traffice between VXLAN and non-VXLAN domains. Considering all t=
hat, would the following change be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><di=
v><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that<=
/div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><di=
v>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not ha=
ve an IP address assigned.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>[ag2] Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deploy=
ments have VMs without an IP address)?=C2=A0 Normally I would think VMs wou=
ld have an IP address.=C2=A0 It&#39;s just that they are segregated into se=
gments and, without an intervening router, they are restricted to communica=
te only within their subnet.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
>GIM3&gt;&gt; Would the following text be acceptable:</div></div></div><blo=
ckquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Deployments might have VMs with only L2 capabil=
ities and not have an IP address assigned or,</div></div></div><div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div>in other cases, VMs are assigned IP address but ar=
e restricted to communicate only within their subnet.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div></di=
v></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag3] Yes, this=
 is better.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Having=
 a hierarchical OAM model helps localize
faults though it requires additional consideration.</span><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>What are the additional considerations?</div></div></b=
lockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Luc=
ida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; For example, coordinat=
ion of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>[ag] Can we mention them in the draft?</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Would be useful=
 to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would like to know more =
about service nodes.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&qu=
ot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
GIM&gt;&gt; I have to admit that I don&#39;t find how RFC 8293=C2=A0=C2=A0A=
 Framework for Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related =
to this document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the =
document.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] The RF=
C discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned here.=C2=A0=C2=A0</=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sec=
tion 4</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon=
t-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Separate BFD
sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2) for
monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).</span><br></div><di=
v>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>IMO, the document should mention that this could l=
ead to scaling issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNI=
s.=C2=A0 Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not=
 even exist on the destination VTEP.=C2=A0 Finally, what is the benefit of =
doing this?=C2=A0 There may be certain corner cases where it&#39;s useful (=
vs a single BFD session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be goo=
d to explain what those are.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&q=
uot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; Will add text in the Security Considerations section th=
at VTEPs should have limit on number of BFD sessions.</span>=C2=A0</div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] I was hoping for two things:</div><div>- A =
mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is discussed.=
=C2=A0 (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)</div></div></=
div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve added the following sente=
nse in both places:</div><div>The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable u=
pper bound on the number of BFD sessions that can be created between the sa=
me pair of VTEPs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>[ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?</div></=
div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I usually understand th=
at as requirement to make it controllable, have configurable limit. Thus it=
 will be up to an network operator to set the limit.=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>- What is the benefit of running BFD p=
er VNI between a pair of VTEPs?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GI=
M2&gt;&gt; An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there&#39;s t=
he need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional=
.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag2] I&#39=
;m not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one to monitor=
 the liveliness of VMs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag3] I think you missed re=
sponding to this.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not sure of the value of running BFD per VN=
I between VTEPs.=C2=A0 What am I getting that is not covered by running a s=
ingle BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Secti=
ons 5.1 and 6.1</div><div><br></div><div>In 5.1 we have</div><div>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-si=
ze:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD pay=
load has the</span></div><div><span>following format:</span><br class=3D"m_=
-1183278220270986010gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m=
_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-401=
4731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_212088904=
8547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);=
font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">...
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</span><br class=3D"m_-1=
183278220270986010gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-=
6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-40147=
31856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_21208890485=
47072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=
<br></div><div>In 6.1 we have=C2=A0</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><pre c=
lass=3D"m_-1183278220270986010gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_6234960196044538=
392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gm=
ail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m=
_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,=
0)">Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF</pre><p=
re class=3D"m_-1183278220270986010gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_623496019604=
4538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_49438050311854435=
02gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gma=
il-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-=
top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(=
0,0,0)">packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880" title=3D"&quot;Bidirectional Forwarding D=
etection (BFD)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">RFC5880</a>].  </pre></div><div><pr=
e class=3D"m_-1183278220270986010gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_6234960196044=
538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_494380503118544350=
2gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmai=
l-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-t=
op:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0=
,0,0)"><b>For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified</b></pre></d=
iv><div><pre class=3D"m_-1183278220270986010gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_62=
34960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805=
031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_373838118399=
2508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333=
px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the d=
estination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</b></pre></div=
><div><pre class=3D"m_-1183278220270986010gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_6234=
960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_494380503=
1185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_37383811839925=
08565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px=
;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>encapsulated packet.</b></pre><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;</div><div>How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as=
 specified in 5.1?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; You&#39;re righ=
t, Destination and source IP addresses likely are the same in this case. Wi=
ll add that the source UDP port number, along with the pair of IP addresses=
, MUST be used to demux received BFD control packets. Would you agree that =
will be sufficient?=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] Yes, I th=
ink that should work.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></=
div><div>Editorial</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[a=
g] Agree with all comments on this section.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>- Terminology section should be renamed to a=
cronyms.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Accepted=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>- Docume=
nt would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that will happe=
n once it gets to the RFC editor.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; =
Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><=
div>Section 1</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0=
,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">&quot;V=
irtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [</span><a href=3D"https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348" title=3D"&quot;Virtual eXtensible Local Are=
a Network (VXLAN): A Framework for Overlaying Virtualized Layer 2 Networks =
over Layer 3 Networks&quot;" style=3D"font-family:monospace;font-size:13.33=
33px;white-space:pre-wrap" target=3D"_blank">RFC7348</a><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap=
">].  provides
an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
communicate in a data center network.</span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</di=
v><div>This is not accurate.=C2=A0 VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay=
 to decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the netwo=
rk.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggested te=
xt. Will change as follows:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quo=
t;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 prov=
ides</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual mac=
hines (VMs) to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate in a data center network.=
=C2=A0</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0&quot;Virtual eXtensible Lo=
cal Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 provides</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by=C2=
=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 decoupling the address space of the attached virtual h=
osts from that of the network.</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 7</div><div><=
br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-si=
ze:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VTEP&#39;s -&gt; VTEPs</span></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, thank you.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000e2d9b4057b3b6ae9--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 12:27:56 -0800
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Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
To: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Cc: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>
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--0000000000007201be057b46b469
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi Anoop,
apologies if my explanation was not clear. Non-zero VNIs are recommended to
be used by a VTEP that received BFD control packet with zero Your
Discriminator value. BFD control packets with non-zero Your Discriminator
value will be demultiplexed using only that value. As for the special role
of VNI 0 the section 7 of the draft states the following:
   BFD session MAY be established for the reserved VNI 0.  One way to
   aggregate BFD sessions between VTEP's is to establish a BFD session
   with VNI 0.  A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session
   with a service node.
Would you suggest changing the normative language in this text?

Regards,
Greg

PS. Happy Thanksgiving to All!

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> See below prefixed with [ag4].
>
> Thanks,
> Anoop
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:36 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Anoop,
>> apologies for the miss. Is it the last outstanding? Let's bring it to the
>> front then.
>>
>> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>>>>>
>>>>> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's the
>>>>> need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one
>>>> to monitor the liveliness of VMs.
>>>>
>>>
>> [ag3] I think you missed responding to this.  I'm not sure of the value
>> of running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.  What am I getting that is not
>> covered by running a single BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?
>>
>> GIM3>> I've misspoken. Non-zero VNI is recommended to be used to
>> demultiplex BFD sessions between the same VTEPs. In section 6.1:
>>    The procedure for demultiplexing
>>    packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from
>>    [RFC5880].  For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified
>>    using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>>    present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN
>>    encapsulated packet.  The VNI of the packet SHOULD be used to derive
>>    interface-related information for demultiplexing the packet.
>>
>> Hope that clarifies the use of non-zero VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of a
>> BFD control packet.
>>
>
> [ag4] This tells me how the VNI is used for BFD packets being
> sent/received.  What is the use case/benefit of doing that?  I am creating
> a special interface with VNI 0 just for BFD.  Why do I now need to run BFD
> on any/all of the other VNIs?  As a developer, if I read this spec, should
> I be building this capability or not?  Basically what I'm getting at is I
> think the draft should recommend using VNI 0.  If there is a convincing use
> case for running BFD over other VNIs serviced by that VTEP, then that needs
> to be explained.  But as I mentioned before, this leads to scaling issues.
> So given the scaling issues, it would be good if an implementation only
> needed to worry about sending BFD messages on VNI 0.
>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 12:14 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Greg,
>>>
>>> Please see inline prefixed by [ag3].
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Anoop
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:29 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>> thank you for the discussion. Please find my responses tagged GIM3>>.
>>>> Also, attached diff and the updated working version of the draft. Hope
>>>> we're converging.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Greg,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please see inline prefixed with [ag2].
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Anoop
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:45 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>>>> thank you for the expedient response. I am glad that some of my
>>>>>> responses have addressed your concerns. Please find followup notes in-line
>>>>>> tagged GIM2>>. I've attached the diff to highlight the updates applied in
>>>>>> the working version. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani <
>>>>>> anoop@alumni.duke.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Greg,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please see inline prefixed with [ag].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Anoop
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>>>>>> many thanks for the thorough review and detailed comments. Please
>>>>>>>> find my answers, this time for real, in-line tagged GIM>>.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani <
>>>>>>>> anoop@alumni.duke.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here are my comments.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Anoop
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Philosophical
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a
>>>>>>>>> standard for running BFD on it?  Should we define BFD over Geneve instead
>>>>>>>>> which is the official WG selection?  Is that going to be a separate
>>>>>>>>> document?
>>>>>>>>> GIM>> IS-IS is not on the Standard track either but that had not
>>>>>>>>> prevented IETF from developing tens of standard track RFCs using RFC 1142
>>>>>>>>> as the normative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified it as historical. A
>>>>>>>>> similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing RFC 3784 until it was
>>>>>>>>> obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand that Down Reference,
>>>>>>>>> i.e., using informational RFC as the normative reference, is not an unusual
>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [ag] OK.  I'm not an expert on this part so unless someone else that
>>>>>>> is an expert (chairs, AD?) can comment on it, I'll just let it go.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Technical
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Section 1:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This part needs to be rewritten:
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> The individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network,
>>>>>>>>> or they could be in a single Layer 2 network. The VXLAN segments/overlays
>>>>>>>>> are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network. A VM can communicate with another
>>>>>>>>> VM only if they are on the same VXLAN segment.
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> It's hard to parse and, given IRB,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GIM>> Would the following text be acceptable:
>>>>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>>>>    VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
>>>>>>>>    virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>    individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>    could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN
>>>>>>>> segments/overlays
>>>>>>>>    are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.
>>>>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>>>>> VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
>>>>>>>> virtualized
>>>>>>>> hosts of a tenant. VXLAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and
>>>>>>>> Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> a multi-tenant environment, discussed in section 3 [RFC7348], by
>>>>>>>>  providing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [ag] This is a lot better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
>>>>>>>> VXLAN segment.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the last sentence above is wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GIM>> Section 4 in RFC 7348 states:
>>>>>>>> Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communicate with each
>>>>>>>> other.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [ag] VMs on different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so
>>>>>>> even RFC 7348 is wrong.  Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- "In
>>>>>>> the absence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Section 3:
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>>>>>>> may not support L3.
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP
>>>>>>>>> addresses/configuration?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GIM>> Would re-word as follows:
>>>>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>>>>>>  may not support L3.
>>>>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>>>>> Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not
>>>>>>>> support L3.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [ag] I still don't understand this.  What does it mean for a VM to
>>>>>>> not support L3?  No IP address, no default GW, something else?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM2>> VM communicates with its VTEP which, in turn, originates VXLAN
>>>>>> tunnel. VM is not required to have IP address as it is VTEP's IP address
>>>>>> that VM's MAC is associated with. As for gateway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN
>>>>>> gateway as the device that forwards traffice between VXLAN and non-VXLAN
>>>>>> domains. Considering all that, would the following change be acceptable:
>>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>>>>  may not support L3.
>>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not
>>>>>> have an IP address assigned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [ag2] Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deployments
>>>>> have VMs without an IP address)?  Normally I would think VMs would have an
>>>>> IP address.  It's just that they are segregated into segments and, without
>>>>> an intervening router, they are restricted to communicate only within their
>>>>> subnet.
>>>>>
>>>> GIM3>> Would the following text be acceptable:
>>>>
>>>> Deployments might have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have an IP
>>>> address assigned or,
>>>> in other cases, VMs are assigned IP address but are restricted to
>>>> communicate only within their subnet.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> [ag3] Yes, this is better.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize faults though it
>>>>>>>>> requires additional consideration.
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> What are the additional considerations?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GIM>> For example, coordination of BFD intervals across the OAM
>>>>>>>> layers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [ag] Can we mention them in the draft?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader
>>>>>>>>> would like to know more about service nodes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GIM>> I have to admit that I don't find how RFC 8293  A Framework
>>>>>>>> for Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related to this
>>>>>>>> document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the
>>>>>>>> document.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [ag] The RFC discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned
>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Section 4
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> Separate BFD sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1
>>>>>>>>> and IP2) for monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> IMO, the document should mention that this could lead to scaling
>>>>>>>>> issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNIs.
>>>>>>>>> Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not even
>>>>>>>>> exist on the destination VTEP.  Finally, what is the benefit of doing
>>>>>>>>> this?  There may be certain corner cases where it's useful (vs a single BFD
>>>>>>>>> session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be good to explain
>>>>>>>>> what those are.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GIM>> Will add text in the Security Considerations section that
>>>>>>>> VTEPs should have limit on number of BFD sessions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [ag] I was hoping for two things:
>>>>>>> - A mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is
>>>>>>> discussed.  (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM2>> I've added the following sentense in both places:
>>>>>> The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable upper bound on the number
>>>>>> of BFD sessions that can be created between the same pair of VTEPs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?
>>>>>
>>>> GIM>> I usually understand that as requirement to make it controllable,
>>>> have configurable limit. Thus it will be up to an network operator to set
>>>> the limit.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's the
>>>>>> need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows
>>>>> one to monitor the liveliness of VMs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> [ag3] I think you missed responding to this.  I'm not sure of the value
>>> of running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.  What am I getting that is not
>>> covered by running a single BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sections 5.1 and 6.1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In 5.1 we have
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the
>>>>>>>>> following format:
>>>>>>>>> ... Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP. Destination IP:
>>>>>>>>> IP address of the terminating VTEP.
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In 6.1 we have
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
>>>>>>>>> VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
>>>>>>>>> packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[RFC5880 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880>].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>>>>>>>>> present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *encapsulated packet.*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as
>>>>>>>>> specified in 5.1?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GIM>> You're right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are
>>>>>>>> the same in this case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with
>>>>>>>> the pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control
>>>>>>>> packets. Would you agree that will be sufficient?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [ag] Yes, I think that should work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Editorial
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [ag] Agree with all comments on this section.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GIM>> Accepted
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but
>>>>>>>>> maybe that will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GIM>> Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Section 1
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348
>>>>>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348>]. provides an encapsulation
>>>>>>>>> scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to communicate in a data center
>>>>>>>>> network.
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> This is not accurate.  VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay to
>>>>>>>>> decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the network.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text. Will change as follows:
>>>>>>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>>>>>>    "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].
>>>>>>>> provides
>>>>>>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
>>>>>>>>    communicate in a data center network.
>>>>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>>>>>  "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].
>>>>>>>> provides
>>>>>>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>   decoupling the address space of the attached virtual hosts from
>>>>>>>> that of the network.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Section 7
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> VTEP's -> VTEPs
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GIM>> Yes, thank you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>

--0000000000007201be057b46b469
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>apologies if my explanation=
 was not clear. Non-zero VNIs are recommended to be used by a VTEP that rec=
eived BFD control packet with zero Your Discriminator value. BFD control pa=
ckets with non-zero Your Discriminator value will be demultiplexed using on=
ly that value. As for the special role of VNI 0 the section 7 of the draft =
states the following:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD session MAY be establ=
ished for the reserved VNI 0.=C2=A0 One way to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0aggre=
gate BFD sessions between VTEP&#39;s is to establish a BFD session</div><di=
v>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with VNI 0.=C2=A0 A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a B=
FD session</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with a service node.</div></div><div>Woul=
d you suggest changing the normative language in this text?</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><div><br></div><div>PS. Happy Thanks=
giving to All!</div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"=
ltr">On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
anoop@alumni.duke.edu">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>See b=
elow prefixed with [ag4].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<=
/div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 a=
t 4:36 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>apologies for=
 the miss. Is it the last outstanding? Let&#39;s bring it to the front then=
.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div>- What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a p=
air of VTEPs?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; An alte=
rnative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there&#39;s the need to monitor=
 liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.=C2=A0</div></div=
></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag2] I&#39;m not sure how ru=
nning per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one to monitor the liveliness of=
 VMs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag3] I think you missed responding to this.=
=C2=A0 I&#39;m not sure of the value of running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.=
=C2=A0 What am I getting that is not covered by running a single BFD sessio=
n with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div><div>GIM3&gt;&g=
t; I&#39;ve misspoken. Non-zero VNI is recommended to be used to demultiple=
x BFD sessions between the same VTEPs. In section 6.1:</div><div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0The procedure for demultiplexing</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0packets w=
ith Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
[RFC5880].=C2=A0 For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified</div>=
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the dest=
ination IP</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0present in the IP header carried by the p=
ayload of the VXLAN</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulated packet.=C2=A0 The V=
NI of the packet SHOULD be used to derive</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0interface-=
related information for demultiplexing the packet.</div></div><div><br></di=
v><div>Hope that clarifies the use of non-zero VNI in VXLAN encapsulation o=
f a BFD control packet.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[=
ag4] This tells me how the VNI is used for BFD packets being sent/received.=
=C2=A0 What is the use case/benefit of doing that?=C2=A0 I am creating a sp=
ecial interface with VNI 0 just for BFD.=C2=A0 Why do I now need to run BFD=
 on any/all of the other VNIs?=C2=A0 As a developer, if I read this spec, s=
hould I be building this capability or not?=C2=A0 Basically what I&#39;m ge=
tting at is I think the draft should recommend using VNI 0.=C2=A0 If there =
is a convincing use case for running BFD over other VNIs serviced by that V=
TEP, then that needs to be explained.=C2=A0 But as I mentioned before, this=
 leads to scaling issues.=C2=A0 So given the scaling issues, it would be go=
od if an implementation only needed to worry about sending BFD messages on =
VNI 0.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 12:14 PM A=
noop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank=
">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please =
see inline prefixed by [ag3].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>An=
oop</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Nov 1=
6, 2018 at 5:29 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">H=
i Anoop,<div>thank you for the discussion. Please find my responses tagged =
GIM3&gt;&gt;. Also, attached diff and the updated working version of the dr=
aft. Hope we&#39;re converging.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div=
>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 14, =
2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu=
" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br>=
</div><div>Please see inline prefixed with [ag2].</div><div><br></div><div>=
Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:45 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for the expedient=C2=
=A0response. I am glad that some=C2=A0of my responses have addressed your c=
oncerns. Please find followup notes in-line tagged GIM2&gt;&gt;. I&#39;ve a=
ttached the diff to highlight the updates applied in the working version. L=
et me know if these are acceptable changes.</div><div><br></div><div>Regard=
s,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On T=
ue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alu=
mni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Gr=
eg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed with [ag].</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>many thanks for the thorough rev=
iew and detailed comments. Please find my answers, this time for real, in-l=
ine tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1=
:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=
=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Here are my comm=
ents.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><div><br></div>=
<div>=3D=3D</div><div><br></div><div>Philosophical</div><div><br></div><div=
>Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard for =
running BFD on it?=C2=A0 Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is =
the official WG selection?=C2=A0 Is that going to be a separate document?<b=
r></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial, =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93, Mic=
rosoft Yahei, Lucida Grande, Verdana, Lucida, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span =
style=3D"font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; IS-IS is not on the Standard track eit=
her but that had not prevented IETF from developing tens of standard track =
RFCs using RFC 1142 as the normative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified=
 it as historical. A similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing =
RFC 3784 until it was obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand =
that Down Reference, i.e., using informational RFC as the normative referen=
ce, is not an unusual situation.</span></font></div></div></blockquote></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></block=
quote><div><br></div><div>[ag] OK.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not an expert on this part=
 so unless someone else that is an expert (chairs, AD?) can comment on it, =
I&#39;ll just let it go.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Technical</div><div><br></div><div=
>Section 1:</div><div><br></div><div>This part needs to be rewritten:</div>=
<div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:mon=
ospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The
individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.

A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment. </span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>It&#39;s hard t=
o parse and, given IRB, </div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would the=
 following text be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.=
=C2=A0 The</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0individual racks may be part of a differe=
nt Layer 3 network, or they</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0could be in a single Lay=
er 2 network.=C2=A0 The VXLAN segments/overlays</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are =
overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnect=
ing virtualized=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">hosts of a tenant. VX=
LAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs =
in=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">a multi-tenant environment, discus=
sed in section 3 [RFC7348], by</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0provid=
ing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.</div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] This is a lot better.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div>=C2=A0<span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-=
space:pre-wrap">A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on th=
e same</span></div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VXLAN segment. </span><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>the last sentenc=
e above is wrong.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Section 4 in RFC=
 7348 states:</div><div>Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communic=
ate with=C2=A0each other.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] VMs o=
n different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so even RFC 7348 is=
 wrong.=C2=A0 Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- &quot;In the ab=
sence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...&quot;.</div><div>=
=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div>Section 3:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">=
Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</span></div><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">may not support L3.</span><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>A=
re you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP addresses/configurat=
ion?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would re-word as follows:</di=
v><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L=
2 capabilities that</div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div><div>NEW TEXT:=
</div><div>Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not s=
upport L3.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] I still don&#39;t understand this.=C2=A0 What does it mean fo=
r a VM to not support L3?=C2=A0 No IP address, no default GW, something els=
e?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; VM communicates wi=
th its VTEP which, in turn, originates VXLAN tunnel. VM is not required to =
have IP address as it is VTEP&#39;s IP address that VM&#39;s MAC is associa=
ted with. As for gateway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN gateway as the device th=
at forwards traffice between VXLAN and non-VXLAN domains. Considering all t=
hat, would the following change be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><di=
v><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that<=
/div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><di=
v>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not ha=
ve an IP address assigned.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>[ag2] Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deploy=
ments have VMs without an IP address)?=C2=A0 Normally I would think VMs wou=
ld have an IP address.=C2=A0 It&#39;s just that they are segregated into se=
gments and, without an intervening router, they are restricted to communica=
te only within their subnet.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
>GIM3&gt;&gt; Would the following text be acceptable:</div></div></div><blo=
ckquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Deployments might have VMs with only L2 capabil=
ities and not have an IP address assigned or,</div></div></div><div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div>in other cases, VMs are assigned IP address but ar=
e restricted to communicate only within their subnet.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div></di=
v></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag3] Yes, this=
 is better.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Having=
 a hierarchical OAM model helps localize
faults though it requires additional consideration.</span><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>What are the additional considerations?</div></div></b=
lockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Luc=
ida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; For example, coordinat=
ion of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>[ag] Can we mention them in the draft?</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Would be useful=
 to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would like to know more =
about service nodes.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&qu=
ot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
GIM&gt;&gt; I have to admit that I don&#39;t find how RFC 8293=C2=A0=C2=A0A=
 Framework for Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related =
to this document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the =
document.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] The RF=
C discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned here.=C2=A0=C2=A0</=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sec=
tion 4</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon=
t-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Separate BFD
sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2) for
monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).</span><br></div><di=
v>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>IMO, the document should mention that this could l=
ead to scaling issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNI=
s.=C2=A0 Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not=
 even exist on the destination VTEP.=C2=A0 Finally, what is the benefit of =
doing this?=C2=A0 There may be certain corner cases where it&#39;s useful (=
vs a single BFD session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be goo=
d to explain what those are.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&q=
uot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; Will add text in the Security Considerations section th=
at VTEPs should have limit on number of BFD sessions.</span>=C2=A0</div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] I was hoping for two things:</div><div>- A =
mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is discussed.=
=C2=A0 (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)</div></div></=
div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve added the following sente=
nse in both places:</div><div>The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable u=
pper bound on the number of BFD sessions that can be created between the sa=
me pair of VTEPs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>[ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?</div></=
div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I usually understand th=
at as requirement to make it controllable, have configurable limit. Thus it=
 will be up to an network operator to set the limit.=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>- What is the benefit of running BFD p=
er VNI between a pair of VTEPs?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GI=
M2&gt;&gt; An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there&#39;s t=
he need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional=
.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag2] I&#39=
;m not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one to monitor=
 the liveliness of VMs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag3] I think you missed re=
sponding to this.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not sure of the value of running BFD per VN=
I between VTEPs.=C2=A0 What am I getting that is not covered by running a s=
ingle BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Secti=
ons 5.1 and 6.1</div><div><br></div><div>In 5.1 we have</div><div>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-si=
ze:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD pay=
load has the</span></div><div><span>following format:</span><br class=3D"m_=
-6692441827035546216m_-1183278220270986010gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_6234=
960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_494380503=
1185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_37383811839925=
08565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space=
:pre-wrap">...
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</span><br class=3D"m_-6=
692441827035546216m_-1183278220270986010gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_623496=
0196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_49438050311=
85443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508=
565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>In 6.1 we have=C2=A0</div><div>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;</div><div><pre class=3D"m_-6692441827035546216m_-1183278220270986010g=
mail-m_6347882667904523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995=
m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_330=
5905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpa=
ge" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:i=
nline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Since multiple BFD sessions=
 may be running between two
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF</pre><p=
re class=3D"m_-6692441827035546216m_-1183278220270986010gmail-m_63478826679=
04523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-618924820585214=
784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_=
3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-=
size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-=
before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">packets to the proper session.  The procedure=
 for demultiplexing
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880" title=3D"&quot;Bidirectional Forwarding D=
etection (BFD)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">RFC5880</a>].  </pre></div><div><pr=
e class=3D"m_-6692441827035546216m_-1183278220270986010gmail-m_634788266790=
4523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-6189248205852147=
84m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3=
738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-b=
efore:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>For such packets, the BFD session MUST be i=
dentified</b></pre></div><div><pre class=3D"m_-6692441827035546216m_-118327=
8220270986010gmail-m_6347882667904523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-69951=
23109713790995m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856=
997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072=
597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom=
:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>using the =
inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</b></pre></div=
><div><pre class=3D"m_-6692441827035546216m_-1183278220270986010gmail-m_634=
7882667904523689m_6234960196044538392gmail-m_-6995123109713790995m_-6189248=
20585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503=
179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=
=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-blo=
ck;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>encapsulated packet.</b></pre><br=
></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>How does this work if the source IP and =
dest IP are the same as specified in 5.1?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&=
gt;&gt; You&#39;re right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are th=
e same in this case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with t=
he pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control packets=
. Would you agree that will be sufficient?=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] Yes, I think that should work.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Editorial</div></div></blockquote></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>[ag] Agree with all comments on this section.=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>- Terminology sec=
tion should be renamed to acronyms.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt=
; Accepted=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div>- Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub=
, but maybe that will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.</div></div></b=
lockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs an=
d RFC editor.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 1</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">&quot;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLA=
N) [</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348" title=3D"&quot;V=
irtual eXtensible Local Area Network (VXLAN): A Framework for Overlaying Vi=
rtualized Layer 2 Networks over Layer 3 Networks&quot;" style=3D"font-famil=
y:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap" target=3D"_blank">RFC=
7348</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.=
3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">].  provides
an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
communicate in a data center network.</span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</di=
v><div>This is not accurate.=C2=A0 VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay=
 to decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the netwo=
rk.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggested te=
xt. Will change as follows:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quo=
t;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 prov=
ides</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual mac=
hines (VMs) to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate in a data center network.=
=C2=A0</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0&quot;Virtual eXtensible Lo=
cal Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 provides</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by=C2=
=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 decoupling the address space of the attached virtual h=
osts from that of the network.</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 7</div><div><=
br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-si=
ze:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VTEP&#39;s -&gt; VTEPs</span></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, thank you.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000007201be057b46b469--


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From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 10:47:23 -0800
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Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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Hi Greg,

I would recommend the following change.

OLD

7.  Use of reserved VNI

   BFD session MAY be established for the reserved VNI 0.  One way to
   aggregate BFD sessions between VTEP's is to establish a BFD session
   with VNI 0.  A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session
   with a service node.

NEW

7.  Use of reserved VNI

   In most cases, only a single BFD session is necessary for a given VTEP
to monitor the reachability to a remote VTEP, regardless of the number of
VNIs in common.  When a single session is used to monitor reachability
remote VTEP, an implementation SHOULD use a VNI of 0.

Thanks,
Anoop

On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:28 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Anoop,
> apologies if my explanation was not clear. Non-zero VNIs are recommended
> to be used by a VTEP that received BFD control packet with zero Your
> Discriminator value. BFD control packets with non-zero Your Discriminator
> value will be demultiplexed using only that value. As for the special role
> of VNI 0 the section 7 of the draft states the following:
>    BFD session MAY be established for the reserved VNI 0.  One way to
>    aggregate BFD sessions between VTEP's is to establish a BFD session
>    with VNI 0.  A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session
>    with a service node.
> Would you suggest changing the normative language in this text?
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> PS. Happy Thanksgiving to All!
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Greg,
>>
>> See below prefixed with [ag4].
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Anoop
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:36 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Anoop,
>>> apologies for the miss. Is it the last outstanding? Let's bring it to
>>> the front then.
>>>
>>> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's the
>>>>>> need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows
>>>>> one to monitor the liveliness of VMs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> [ag3] I think you missed responding to this.  I'm not sure of the value
>>> of running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.  What am I getting that is not
>>> covered by running a single BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?
>>>
>>> GIM3>> I've misspoken. Non-zero VNI is recommended to be used to
>>> demultiplex BFD sessions between the same VTEPs. In section 6.1:
>>>    The procedure for demultiplexing
>>>    packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from
>>>    [RFC5880].  For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified
>>>    using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>>>    present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN
>>>    encapsulated packet.  The VNI of the packet SHOULD be used to derive
>>>    interface-related information for demultiplexing the packet.
>>>
>>> Hope that clarifies the use of non-zero VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of a
>>> BFD control packet.
>>>
>>
>> [ag4] This tells me how the VNI is used for BFD packets being
>> sent/received.  What is the use case/benefit of doing that?  I am creating
>> a special interface with VNI 0 just for BFD.  Why do I now need to run BFD
>> on any/all of the other VNIs?  As a developer, if I read this spec, should
>> I be building this capability or not?  Basically what I'm getting at is I
>> think the draft should recommend using VNI 0.  If there is a convincing use
>> case for running BFD over other VNIs serviced by that VTEP, then that needs
>> to be explained.  But as I mentioned before, this leads to scaling issues.
>> So given the scaling issues, it would be good if an implementation only
>> needed to worry about sending BFD messages on VNI 0.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>>

--000000000000ba94b2057b596a93
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>I would recommend the followin=
g change.</div><div><br></div><div>OLD</div><div><br></div>7.=C2=A0 Use of =
reserved VNI<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD session MAY be established for the res=
erved VNI 0.=C2=A0 One way to<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0aggregate BFD sessions betwee=
n VTEP&#39;s is to establish a BFD session<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with VNI 0.=C2=
=A0 A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0wi=
th a service node.<br><br>NEW<br><br>7.=C2=A0 Use of reserved VNI<br><br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In most cases, only a single BFD session is necessary for a gi=
ven VTEP to monitor the reachability to a remote VTEP, regardless of the nu=
mber of VNIs in common.=C2=A0 When a single session is used to monitor reac=
hability remote VTEP, an implementation SHOULD use a VNI of 0.=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
div><br></div><div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:28 PM Greg Mirsky=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>apologies if my explanation was not clear. Non-zero =
VNIs are recommended to be used by a VTEP that received BFD control packet =
with zero Your Discriminator value. BFD control packets with non-zero Your =
Discriminator value will be demultiplexed using only that value. As for the=
 special role of VNI 0 the section 7 of the draft states the following:</di=
v><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD session MAY be established for the reserved VN=
I 0.=C2=A0 One way to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0aggregate BFD sessions between=
 VTEP&#39;s is to establish a BFD session</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with VNI 0=
.=C2=A0 A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0with a service node.</div></div><div>Would you suggest changing t=
he normative language in this text?</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div>=
<div>Greg</div><div><br></div><div>PS. Happy Thanksgiving to All!</div></di=
v></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 21, 201=
8 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" t=
arget=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>See below p=
refixed with [ag4].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:36=
 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>apologies for the mis=
s. Is it the last outstanding? Let&#39;s bring it to the front then.</div><=
div><br></div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div>- What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of =
VTEPs?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; An alternative=
 would be to run CFM between VMs, if there&#39;s the need to monitor liveli=
ness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.=C2=A0</div></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag2] I&#39;m not sure how running p=
er-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one to monitor the liveliness of VMs.=
=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>[ag3] I think you missed responding to this.=C2=A0=
 I&#39;m not sure of the value of running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.=C2=A0 =
What am I getting that is not covered by running a single BFD session with =
VNI 0 between the VTEPs?</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div><div>GIM3&gt;&gt; I&#3=
9;ve misspoken. Non-zero VNI is recommended to be used to demultiplex BFD s=
essions between the same VTEPs. In section 6.1:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0The procedure for demultiplexing</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0packets with You=
r Discriminator equal to 0 is different from</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC588=
0].=C2=A0 For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destinati=
on IP</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0present in the IP header carried by the payloa=
d of the VXLAN</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulated packet.=C2=A0 The VNI of=
 the packet SHOULD be used to derive</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0interface-relat=
ed information for demultiplexing the packet.</div></div><div><br></div><di=
v>Hope that clarifies the use of non-zero VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of a B=
FD control packet.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag4] =
This tells me how the VNI is used for BFD packets being sent/received.=C2=
=A0 What is the use case/benefit of doing that?=C2=A0 I am creating a speci=
al interface with VNI 0 just for BFD.=C2=A0 Why do I now need to run BFD on=
 any/all of the other VNIs?=C2=A0 As a developer, if I read this spec, shou=
ld I be building this capability or not?=C2=A0 Basically what I&#39;m getti=
ng at is I think the draft should recommend using VNI 0.=C2=A0 If there is =
a convincing use case for running BFD over other VNIs serviced by that VTEP=
, then that needs to be explained.=C2=A0 But as I mentioned before, this le=
ads to scaling issues.=C2=A0 So given the scaling issues, it would be good =
if an implementation only needed to worry about sending BFD messages on VNI=
 0.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x">
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>

--000000000000ba94b2057b596a93--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 13:10:16 -0800
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Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
To: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Cc: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>
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--000000000000991b78057b5b6953
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Hi Anoop,
thank you for the consise text. I think I've got the idea. Would the minor
tweak be acceptable?

In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the given VTEP to
monitor
the reachability of a remote VTEP, regardless of the number of VNIs in
common.
When the single BFD session is used to monitor reachability of the remote
VTEP,
an implementation SHOULD use a VNI of 0.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:47 AM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> I would recommend the following change.
>
> OLD
>
> 7.  Use of reserved VNI
>
>    BFD session MAY be established for the reserved VNI 0.  One way to
>    aggregate BFD sessions between VTEP's is to establish a BFD session
>    with VNI 0.  A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session
>    with a service node.
>
> NEW
>
> 7.  Use of reserved VNI
>
>    In most cases, only a single BFD session is necessary for a given VTEP
> to monitor the reachability to a remote VTEP, regardless of the number of
> VNIs in common.  When a single session is used to monitor reachability
> remote VTEP, an implementation SHOULD use a VNI of 0.
>
> Thanks,
> Anoop
>
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:28 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Anoop,
>> apologies if my explanation was not clear. Non-zero VNIs are recommended
>> to be used by a VTEP that received BFD control packet with zero Your
>> Discriminator value. BFD control packets with non-zero Your Discriminator
>> value will be demultiplexed using only that value. As for the special role
>> of VNI 0 the section 7 of the draft states the following:
>>    BFD session MAY be established for the reserved VNI 0.  One way to
>>    aggregate BFD sessions between VTEP's is to establish a BFD session
>>    with VNI 0.  A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session
>>    with a service node.
>> Would you suggest changing the normative language in this text?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> PS. Happy Thanksgiving to All!
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Greg,
>>>
>>> See below prefixed with [ag4].
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Anoop
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:36 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>> apologies for the miss. Is it the last outstanding? Let's bring it to
>>>> the front then.
>>>>
>>>> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's
>>>>>>> the need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is
>>>>>>> optional.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows
>>>>>> one to monitor the liveliness of VMs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> [ag3] I think you missed responding to this.  I'm not sure of the value
>>>> of running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.  What am I getting that is not
>>>> covered by running a single BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?
>>>>
>>>> GIM3>> I've misspoken. Non-zero VNI is recommended to be used to
>>>> demultiplex BFD sessions between the same VTEPs. In section 6.1:
>>>>    The procedure for demultiplexing
>>>>    packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from
>>>>    [RFC5880].  For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified
>>>>    using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>>>>    present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN
>>>>    encapsulated packet.  The VNI of the packet SHOULD be used to derive
>>>>    interface-related information for demultiplexing the packet.
>>>>
>>>> Hope that clarifies the use of non-zero VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of a
>>>> BFD control packet.
>>>>
>>>
>>> [ag4] This tells me how the VNI is used for BFD packets being
>>> sent/received.  What is the use case/benefit of doing that?  I am creating
>>> a special interface with VNI 0 just for BFD.  Why do I now need to run BFD
>>> on any/all of the other VNIs?  As a developer, if I read this spec, should
>>> I be building this capability or not?  Basically what I'm getting at is I
>>> think the draft should recommend using VNI 0.  If there is a convincing use
>>> case for running BFD over other VNIs serviced by that VTEP, then that needs
>>> to be explained.  But as I mentioned before, this leads to scaling issues.
>>> So given the scaling issues, it would be good if an implementation only
>>> needed to worry about sending BFD messages on VNI 0.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>>>

--000000000000991b78057b5b6953
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for the consise t=
ext. I think I&#39;ve got the idea. Would the minor tweak be acceptable?</d=
iv><div><br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;=
padding:0px">In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the give=
n VTEP to monitor<br>the reachability of a remote VTEP, regardless of the n=
umber of VNIs in common.<br>When the single BFD session is used to monitor =
reachability of the remote VTEP, <br>an implementation SHOULD use a VNI of =
0.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br><br></blockquote>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:47 AM=
 Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu">anoop@alumni.d=
uke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>I would recommend the following change.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>OLD</div><div><br></div>7.=C2=A0 Use of reserved VNI=
<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD session MAY be established for the reserved VNI 0.=
=C2=A0 One way to<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0aggregate BFD sessions between VTEP&#39;s=
 is to establish a BFD session<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with VNI 0.=C2=A0 A VTEP MAY=
 also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with a service n=
ode.<br><br>NEW<br><br>7.=C2=A0 Use of reserved VNI<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0In =
most cases, only a single BFD session is necessary for a given VTEP to moni=
tor the reachability to a remote VTEP, regardless of the number of VNIs in =
common.=C2=A0 When a single session is used to monitor reachability remote =
VTEP, an implementation SHOULD use a VNI of 0.=C2=A0=C2=A0<div><br></div><d=
iv><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:28 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>apologies if my explanation was not clear. Non-zero =
VNIs are recommended to be used by a VTEP that received BFD control packet =
with zero Your Discriminator value. BFD control packets with non-zero Your =
Discriminator value will be demultiplexed using only that value. As for the=
 special role of VNI 0 the section 7 of the draft states the following:</di=
v><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD session MAY be established for the reserved VN=
I 0.=C2=A0 One way to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0aggregate BFD sessions between=
 VTEP&#39;s is to establish a BFD session</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with VNI 0=
.=C2=A0 A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0with a service node.</div></div><div>Would you suggest changing t=
he normative language in this text?</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div>=
<div>Greg</div><div><br></div><div>PS. Happy Thanksgiving to All!</div></di=
v></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 21, 201=
8 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" t=
arget=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>See below p=
refixed with [ag4].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:36=
 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>apologies for the mis=
s. Is it the last outstanding? Let&#39;s bring it to the front then.</div><=
div><br></div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div>- What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of =
VTEPs?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; An alternative=
 would be to run CFM between VMs, if there&#39;s the need to monitor liveli=
ness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.=C2=A0</div></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag2] I&#39;m not sure how running p=
er-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one to monitor the liveliness of VMs.=
=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>[ag3] I think you missed responding to this.=C2=A0=
 I&#39;m not sure of the value of running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.=C2=A0 =
What am I getting that is not covered by running a single BFD session with =
VNI 0 between the VTEPs?</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div><div>GIM3&gt;&gt; I&#3=
9;ve misspoken. Non-zero VNI is recommended to be used to demultiplex BFD s=
essions between the same VTEPs. In section 6.1:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0The procedure for demultiplexing</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0packets with You=
r Discriminator equal to 0 is different from</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC588=
0].=C2=A0 For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destinati=
on IP</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0present in the IP header carried by the payloa=
d of the VXLAN</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulated packet.=C2=A0 The VNI of=
 the packet SHOULD be used to derive</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0interface-relat=
ed information for demultiplexing the packet.</div></div><div><br></div><di=
v>Hope that clarifies the use of non-zero VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of a B=
FD control packet.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag4] =
This tells me how the VNI is used for BFD packets being sent/received.=C2=
=A0 What is the use case/benefit of doing that?=C2=A0 I am creating a speci=
al interface with VNI 0 just for BFD.=C2=A0 Why do I now need to run BFD on=
 any/all of the other VNIs?=C2=A0 As a developer, if I read this spec, shou=
ld I be building this capability or not?=C2=A0 Basically what I&#39;m getti=
ng at is I think the draft should recommend using VNI 0.=C2=A0 If there is =
a convincing use case for running BFD over other VNIs serviced by that VTEP=
, then that needs to be explained.=C2=A0 But as I mentioned before, this le=
ads to scaling issues.=C2=A0 So given the scaling issues, it would be good =
if an implementation only needed to worry about sending BFD messages on VNI=
 0.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x">
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000991b78057b5b6953--


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From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 14:46:38 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+-tSzz71ezd3GE+Uq4K7CvAh4_kzyjqYgKQmXdsKkq66bFk9A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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Hi Greg,

That is fine.

Thanks,
Anoop

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 1:10 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Anoop,
> thank you for the consise text. I think I've got the idea. Would the minor
> tweak be acceptable?
>
> In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the given VTEP to
> monitor
> the reachability of a remote VTEP, regardless of the number of VNIs in
> common.
> When the single BFD session is used to monitor reachability of the remote
> VTEP,
> an implementation SHOULD use a VNI of 0.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:47 AM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Greg,
>>
>> I would recommend the following change.
>>
>> OLD
>>
>> 7.  Use of reserved VNI
>>
>>    BFD session MAY be established for the reserved VNI 0.  One way to
>>    aggregate BFD sessions between VTEP's is to establish a BFD session
>>    with VNI 0.  A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session
>>    with a service node.
>>
>> NEW
>>
>> 7.  Use of reserved VNI
>>
>>    In most cases, only a single BFD session is necessary for a given VTEP
>> to monitor the reachability to a remote VTEP, regardless of the number of
>> VNIs in common.  When a single session is used to monitor reachability
>> remote VTEP, an implementation SHOULD use a VNI of 0.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Anoop
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:28 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Anoop,
>>> apologies if my explanation was not clear. Non-zero VNIs are recommended
>>> to be used by a VTEP that received BFD control packet with zero Your
>>> Discriminator value. BFD control packets with non-zero Your Discriminator
>>> value will be demultiplexed using only that value. As for the special role
>>> of VNI 0 the section 7 of the draft states the following:
>>>    BFD session MAY be established for the reserved VNI 0.  One way to
>>>    aggregate BFD sessions between VTEP's is to establish a BFD session
>>>    with VNI 0.  A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session
>>>    with a service node.
>>> Would you suggest changing the normative language in this text?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> PS. Happy Thanksgiving to All!
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Greg,
>>>>
>>>> See below prefixed with [ag4].
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Anoop
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:36 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>>> apologies for the miss. Is it the last outstanding? Let's bring it to
>>>>> the front then.
>>>>>
>>>>> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's
>>>>>>>> the need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is
>>>>>>>> optional.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows
>>>>>>> one to monitor the liveliness of VMs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> [ag3] I think you missed responding to this.  I'm not sure of the
>>>>> value of running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.  What am I getting that is not
>>>>> covered by running a single BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?
>>>>>
>>>>> GIM3>> I've misspoken. Non-zero VNI is recommended to be used to
>>>>> demultiplex BFD sessions between the same VTEPs. In section 6.1:
>>>>>    The procedure for demultiplexing
>>>>>    packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from
>>>>>    [RFC5880].  For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified
>>>>>    using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>>>>>    present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN
>>>>>    encapsulated packet.  The VNI of the packet SHOULD be used to derive
>>>>>    interface-related information for demultiplexing the packet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope that clarifies the use of non-zero VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of
>>>>> a BFD control packet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ag4] This tells me how the VNI is used for BFD packets being
>>>> sent/received.  What is the use case/benefit of doing that?  I am creating
>>>> a special interface with VNI 0 just for BFD.  Why do I now need to run BFD
>>>> on any/all of the other VNIs?  As a developer, if I read this spec, should
>>>> I be building this capability or not?  Basically what I'm getting at is I
>>>> think the draft should recommend using VNI 0.  If there is a convincing use
>>>> case for running BFD over other VNIs serviced by that VTEP, then that needs
>>>> to be explained.  But as I mentioned before, this leads to scaling issues.
>>>> So given the scaling issues, it would be good if an implementation only
>>>> needed to worry about sending BFD messages on VNI 0.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Greg
>>>>>
>>>>>>

--000000000000576f26057b5cc29a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>That is fine.</div><div><br></=
div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 1:10 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop=
,<div>thank you for the consise text. I think I&#39;ve got the idea. Would =
the minor tweak be acceptable?</div><div><br></div><blockquote style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px">In most cases, a single BFD s=
ession is sufficient for the given VTEP to monitor<br>the reachability of a=
 remote VTEP, regardless of the number of VNIs in common.<br>When the singl=
e BFD session is used to monitor reachability of the remote VTEP, <br>an im=
plementation SHOULD use a VNI of 0.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br><br></blockquote>Regards=
,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:47 AM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoo=
p@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></=
div><div>I would recommend the following change.</div><div><br></div><div>O=
LD</div><div><br></div>7.=C2=A0 Use of reserved VNI<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD=
 session MAY be established for the reserved VNI 0.=C2=A0 One way to<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0aggregate BFD sessions between VTEP&#39;s is to establish a BFD s=
ession<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with VNI 0.=C2=A0 A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to estab=
lish a BFD session<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with a service node.<br><br>NEW<br><br>7=
.=C2=A0 Use of reserved VNI<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0In most cases, only a singl=
e BFD session is necessary for a given VTEP to monitor the reachability to =
a remote VTEP, regardless of the number of VNIs in common.=C2=A0 When a sin=
gle session is used to monitor reachability remote VTEP, an implementation =
SHOULD use a VNI of 0.=C2=A0=C2=A0<div><br></div><div><div>Thanks,</div><di=
v>Anoop</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, N=
ov 22, 2018 at 12:28 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>a=
pologies if my explanation was not clear. Non-zero VNIs are recommended to =
be used by a VTEP that received BFD control packet with zero Your Discrimin=
ator value. BFD control packets with non-zero Your Discriminator value will=
 be demultiplexed using only that value. As for the special role of VNI 0 t=
he section 7 of the draft states the following:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0BFD session MAY be established for the reserved VNI 0.=C2=A0 One way to<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0aggregate BFD sessions between VTEP&#39;s is to esta=
blish a BFD session</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with VNI 0.=C2=A0 A VTEP MAY als=
o use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with a servic=
e node.</div></div><div>Would you suggest changing the normative language i=
n this text?</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><div><br=
></div><div>PS. Happy Thanksgiving to All!</div></div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Gh=
anwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop=
@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>See below prefixed with [ag4].</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:36 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>apologies for the miss. Is it the last outs=
tanding? Let&#39;s bring it to the front then.</div><div><br></div><div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>- What is =
the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?</div></div></di=
v></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; An alternative would be to run CFM b=
etween VMs, if there&#39;s the need to monitor liveliness of the particular=
 VM. Again, this is optional.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div>[ag2] I&#39;m not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the=
 VTEPs allows one to monitor the liveliness of VMs.=C2=A0</div></div></div>=
</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>[ag3] I think you missed responding to this.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not sure of the=
 value of running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.=C2=A0 What am I getting that i=
s not covered by running a single BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?=
</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div><div>GIM3&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve misspoken. Non-zero=
 VNI is recommended to be used to demultiplex BFD sessions between the same=
 VTEPs. In section 6.1:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The procedure for demul=
tiplexing</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0=
 is different from</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5880].=C2=A0 For such packets=
, the BFD session MUST be identified</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0using the inner=
 headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulated packet.=C2=A0 The VNI of the packet SHOULD be use=
d to derive</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0interface-related information for demult=
iplexing the packet.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Hope that clarifies the=
 use of non-zero VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of a BFD control packet.</div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag4] This tells me how the VNI=
 is used for BFD packets being sent/received.=C2=A0 What is the use case/be=
nefit of doing that?=C2=A0 I am creating a special interface with VNI 0 jus=
t for BFD.=C2=A0 Why do I now need to run BFD on any/all of the other VNIs?=
=C2=A0 As a developer, if I read this spec, should I be building this capab=
ility or not?=C2=A0 Basically what I&#39;m getting at is I think the draft =
should recommend using VNI 0.=C2=A0 If there is a convincing use case for r=
unning BFD over other VNIs serviced by that VTEP, then that needs to be exp=
lained.=C2=A0 But as I mentioned before, this leads to scaling issues.=C2=
=A0 So given the scaling issues, it would be good if an implementation only=
 needed to worry about sending BFD messages on VNI 0.</div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br>=
</div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
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From nobody Fri Nov 23 15:50:24 2018
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Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection WG of the IETF.

        Title           : BFD for VXLAN
        Authors         : Santosh Pallagatti
                          Sudarsan Paragiri
                          Vengada Prasad Govindan
                          Mallik Mudigonda
                          Greg Mirsky
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-04.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2018-11-23

Abstract:
   This document describes the use of the Bidirectional Forwarding
   Detection (BFD) protocol in Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network
   (VXLAN) overlay networks.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-04
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:30:53 -0800
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Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
To: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Cc: rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>
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Hi Anoop,
thank you for your comments and the discussion, much appreciated. All that
helped to improve the specification. I've uploaded the -04 version with
updates resulting from your comments and our discussion. Hope I've got them
all right, please let me know. Attached is the diff and the new version of
the draft.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 2:46 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> That is fine.
>
> Thanks,
> Anoop
>
> On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 1:10 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Anoop,
>> thank you for the consise text. I think I've got the idea. Would the
>> minor tweak be acceptable?
>>
>> In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the given VTEP to
>> monitor
>> the reachability of a remote VTEP, regardless of the number of VNIs in
>> common.
>> When the single BFD session is used to monitor reachability of the remote
>> VTEP,
>> an implementation SHOULD use a VNI of 0.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:47 AM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Greg,
>>>
>>> I would recommend the following change.
>>>
>>> OLD
>>>
>>> 7.  Use of reserved VNI
>>>
>>>    BFD session MAY be established for the reserved VNI 0.  One way to
>>>    aggregate BFD sessions between VTEP's is to establish a BFD session
>>>    with VNI 0.  A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session
>>>    with a service node.
>>>
>>> NEW
>>>
>>> 7.  Use of reserved VNI
>>>
>>>    In most cases, only a single BFD session is necessary for a given
>>> VTEP to monitor the reachability to a remote VTEP, regardless of the number
>>> of VNIs in common.  When a single session is used to monitor reachability
>>> remote VTEP, an implementation SHOULD use a VNI of 0.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Anoop
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:28 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>> apologies if my explanation was not clear. Non-zero VNIs are
>>>> recommended to be used by a VTEP that received BFD control packet with zero
>>>> Your Discriminator value. BFD control packets with non-zero Your
>>>> Discriminator value will be demultiplexed using only that value. As for the
>>>> special role of VNI 0 the section 7 of the draft states the following:
>>>>    BFD session MAY be established for the reserved VNI 0.  One way to
>>>>    aggregate BFD sessions between VTEP's is to establish a BFD session
>>>>    with VNI 0.  A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session
>>>>    with a service node.
>>>> Would you suggest changing the normative language in this text?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>> PS. Happy Thanksgiving to All!
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Greg,
>>>>>
>>>>> See below prefixed with [ag4].
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Anoop
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:36 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>>>> apologies for the miss. Is it the last outstanding? Let's bring it to
>>>>>> the front then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's
>>>>>>>>> the need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is
>>>>>>>>> optional.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows
>>>>>>>> one to monitor the liveliness of VMs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ag3] I think you missed responding to this.  I'm not sure of the
>>>>>> value of running BFD per VNI between VTEPs.  What am I getting that is not
>>>>>> covered by running a single BFD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIM3>> I've misspoken. Non-zero VNI is recommended to be used to
>>>>>> demultiplex BFD sessions between the same VTEPs. In section 6.1:
>>>>>>    The procedure for demultiplexing
>>>>>>    packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from
>>>>>>    [RFC5880].  For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified
>>>>>>    using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>>>>>>    present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN
>>>>>>    encapsulated packet.  The VNI of the packet SHOULD be used to
>>>>>> derive
>>>>>>    interface-related information for demultiplexing the packet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope that clarifies the use of non-zero VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of
>>>>>> a BFD control packet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [ag4] This tells me how the VNI is used for BFD packets being
>>>>> sent/received.  What is the use case/benefit of doing that?  I am creating
>>>>> a special interface with VNI 0 just for BFD.  Why do I now need to run BFD
>>>>> on any/all of the other VNIs?  As a developer, if I read this spec, should
>>>>> I be building this capability or not?  Basically what I'm getting at is I
>>>>> think the draft should recommend using VNI 0.  If there is a convincing use
>>>>> case for running BFD over other VNIs serviced by that VTEP, then that needs
>>>>> to be explained.  But as I mentioned before, this leads to scaling issues.
>>>>> So given the scaling issues, it would be good if an implementation only
>>>>> needed to worry about sending BFD messages on VNI 0.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for your comments and the discussi=
on, much appreciated. All that helped to improve the specification. I&#39;v=
e uploaded the -04 version with updates resulting from your comments and ou=
r discussion. Hope I&#39;ve got them all right, please let me know. Attache=
d is the diff and the new version of the draft.</div><div><br></div><div>Re=
gards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D=
"ltr">On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 2:46 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
anoop@alumni.duke.edu">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>That =
is fine.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div></div><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 1:10 PM G=
reg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">g=
regimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for the consise =
text. I think I&#39;ve got the idea. Would the minor tweak be acceptable?</=
div><div><br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none=
;padding:0px">In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the giv=
en VTEP to monitor<br>the reachability of a remote VTEP, regardless of the =
number of VNIs in common.<br>When the single BFD session is used to monitor=
 reachability of the remote VTEP, <br>an implementation SHOULD use a VNI of=
 0.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br><br></blockquote>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:47 A=
M Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_bl=
ank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>I would recommend the f=
ollowing change.</div><div><br></div><div>OLD</div><div><br></div>7.=C2=A0 =
Use of reserved VNI<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD session MAY be established for =
the reserved VNI 0.=C2=A0 One way to<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0aggregate BFD sessions=
 between VTEP&#39;s is to establish a BFD session<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with VNI =
0.=C2=A0 A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD session<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0with a service node.<br><br>NEW<br><br>7.=C2=A0 Use of reserved VNI<br><=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0In most cases, only a single BFD session is necessary for a=
 given VTEP to monitor the reachability to a remote VTEP, regardless of the=
 number of VNIs in common.=C2=A0 When a single session is used to monitor r=
eachability remote VTEP, an implementation SHOULD use a VNI of 0.=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<div><br></div><div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><div><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:28 PM Greg Mi=
rsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>apologies if my explanation was =
not clear. Non-zero VNIs are recommended to be used by a VTEP that received=
 BFD control packet with zero Your Discriminator value. BFD control packets=
 with non-zero Your Discriminator value will be demultiplexed using only th=
at value. As for the special role of VNI 0 the section 7 of the draft state=
s the following:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD session MAY be established=
 for the reserved VNI 0.=C2=A0 One way to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0aggregate =
BFD sessions between VTEP&#39;s is to establish a BFD session</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0with VNI 0.=C2=A0 A VTEP MAY also use VNI 0 to establish a BFD se=
ssion</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with a service node.</div></div><div>Would you=
 suggest changing the normative language in this text?</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><div><br></div><div>PS. Happy Thanksgivin=
g to All!</div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:00 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop=
@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></d=
iv><div>See below prefixed with [ag4].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</di=
v><div>Anoop</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, N=
ov 21, 2018 at 4:36 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>ap=
ologies for the miss. Is it the last outstanding? Let&#39;s bring it to the=
 front then.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>- What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI =
between a pair of VTEPs?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&=
gt; An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there&#39;s the need=
 to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.=C2=A0=
</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag2] I&#39;m not =
sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one to monitor the li=
veliness of VMs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></di=
v></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag3] I think you missed respondin=
g to this.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not sure of the value of running BFD per VNI betwe=
en VTEPs.=C2=A0 What am I getting that is not covered by running a single B=
FD session with VNI 0 between the VTEPs?</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div><div>G=
IM3&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve misspoken. Non-zero VNI is recommended to be used to d=
emultiplex BFD sessions between the same VTEPs. In section 6.1:</div><div><=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The procedure for demultiplexing</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0pa=
ckets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from</div><div>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0[RFC5880].=C2=A0 For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identifie=
d</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and t=
he destination IP</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0present in the IP header carried b=
y the payload of the VXLAN</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulated packet.=C2=
=A0 The VNI of the packet SHOULD be used to derive</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0i=
nterface-related information for demultiplexing the packet.</div></div><div=
><br></div><div>Hope that clarifies the use of non-zero VNI in VXLAN encaps=
ulation of a BFD control packet.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>[ag4] This tells me how the VNI is used for BFD packets being sent/=
received.=C2=A0 What is the use case/benefit of doing that?=C2=A0 I am crea=
ting a special interface with VNI 0 just for BFD.=C2=A0 Why do I now need t=
o run BFD on any/all of the other VNIs?=C2=A0 As a developer, if I read thi=
s spec, should I be building this capability or not?=C2=A0 Basically what I=
&#39;m getting at is I think the draft should recommend using VNI 0.=C2=A0 =
If there is a convincing use case for running BFD over other VNIs serviced =
by that VTEP, then that needs to be explained.=C2=A0 But as I mentioned bef=
ore, this leads to scaling issues.=C2=A0 So given the scaling issues, it wo=
uld be good if an implementation only needed to worry about sending BFD mes=
sages on VNI 0.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mpls] MPLS WG adoption call for draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd
Thread-Topic: [mpls] MPLS WG adoption call for draft-mirsky-mpls-p2mp-bfd
Thread-Index: AQHUcjCnBAZrmoA7/EOd5Vk0epnVbaVBxIEAgAEfEACAAsmgAIAT+0aAgAXE2YA=
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 18:52:06 +0000
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From nobody Wed Nov 28 11:53:10 2018
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Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-active-tail-10.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection WG of the IETF.

        Title           : BFD Multipoint Active Tails.
        Authors         : Dave Katz
                          Dave Ward
                          Santosh Pallagatti
                          Greg Mirsky
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-active-tail-10.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2018-11-28

Abstract:
   This document describes active tail extensions to the Bidirectional
   Forwarding Detection (BFD) protocol for multipoint networks.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-active-tail/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-active-tail-10
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-active-tail-10

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-active-tail-10


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

