From nobody Mon Jul 1 13:41:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50EDA120169; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:41:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id viS1oiB60-Pv; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01CB1200F7; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dresden.attlocal.net (99-59-193-67.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net [99.59.193.67]) by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A9B481E2D8; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 16:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_96896C42-0EC6-42BA-9D1A-C28C79D05383" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07 From: Jeffrey Haas In-Reply-To: <0B9FDA17-7F13-4FEC-AE97-40BC9D72C87B@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 16:41:30 -0400 Cc: Greg Mirsky , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , rtg-bfd WG , "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan.all@ietf.org" , Olivier Bonaventure , IETF list Message-Id: <6711F7AE-04CE-48C2-BA39-748936D9CB70@pfrc.org> References: <155933149484.6565.7386019489022348116@ietfa.amsl.com> <14822B96-D3C6-495E-8661-198068F72ABA@cisco.com> <8237FE8D-937E-4BCB-B1A3-89C2B3CDC51C@cisco.com> <0B9FDA17-7F13-4FEC-AE97-40BC9D72C87B@cisco.com> To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 20:41:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_96896C42-0EC6-42BA-9D1A-C28C79D05383 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Carlos, > On Jun 19, 2019, at 10:09 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) = wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> This packet loop may not be practical for several encapsulations and = thus is >> out of scope for such encapsulations. Whether this is practical for = vxlan >> today, or in the presence of future extensions to vxlan is left out = of scope >> for the core proposal. =20 >=20 > The question remains: for VXLAN encapsulation, this is like a single = hop as far as BFD is concerned (single hop VXLAN tunnel). >=20 > Since RFC 5881 defines Echo for single hop, can you please elaborate = (in the document) why is out of scope or how it can work? While my suspicion was that vxlan was quite happy to be able to do BFD = Echo in the presence of appropriate forwarding machinery, it's still = okay for this document to specify only async mode BFD in the vxlan = environment. If you think it's practical to describe such an environment in a = reasonable amount of text in the base proposal, it could be incorporated = in that document. -- Jeff --Apple-Mail=_96896C42-0EC6-42BA-9D1A-C28C79D05383 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Carlos,


On Jun = 19, 2019, at 10:09 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <cpignata@cisco.com> = wrote:


This packet loop may = not be practical for several encapsulations and thus is
out of scope for such encapsulations.  Whether this is = practical for vxlan
today, or in the presence of = future extensions to vxlan is left out of scope
for = the core = proposal.  

The question remains: for VXLAN encapsulation, this is = like a single hop as far as BFD is concerned (single hop VXLAN = tunnel).

Since RFC 5881 defines Echo for = single hop, can you please elaborate (in the document) why is out of = scope or how it can = work?


While my suspicion was = that vxlan was quite happy to be able to do BFD Echo in the presence of = appropriate forwarding machinery, it's still okay for this document to = specify only async mode BFD in the vxlan environment.

If you think it's = practical to describe such an environment in a reasonable amount of text = in the base proposal, it could be incorporated in that = document.

-- = Jeff

= --Apple-Mail=_96896C42-0EC6-42BA-9D1A-C28C79D05383-- From nobody Mon Jul 1 13:45:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1FC012017D; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:45:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id byrp68ZS3BtK; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E0DB1200F7; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dresden.attlocal.net (99-59-193-67.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net [99.59.193.67]) by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5C71C1E2D8; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 16:46:55 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Level of standardization of the Echo mode of BFD [Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07] From: Jeffrey Haas In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 16:45:30 -0400 Cc: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , rtg-bfd WG , "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan.all@ietf.org" , Olivier Bonaventure , IETF list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <155933149484.6565.7386019489022348116@ietfa.amsl.com> <14822B96-D3C6-495E-8661-198068F72ABA@cisco.com> <8237FE8D-937E-4BCB-B1A3-89C2B3CDC51C@cisco.com> <0B9FDA17-7F13-4FEC-AE97-40BC9D72C87B@cisco.com> To: Greg Mirsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 20:45:34 -0000 Greg, > On Jun 20, 2019, at 12:50 AM, Greg Mirsky = wrote: >=20 > Hello Carlos, > could you please refer me to the specification of BFD that defines the = message format that is used in the Echo mode of BFD. Is it the BFD = control packet? Something else? It is implementation specific. Only the sender of BFD Echo packets = cares about the contents. The sender is thus free to use whatever = pleases it for its implementation. As Carlos mentions, worrying over this point is a distraction and not = particularly relevant for the vxlan review. -- Jeff From nobody Tue Jul 2 11:35:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB24E1206F2 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:35:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gVOTCUhht2tG for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31BA12010F for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3F55F1E2F2; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 14:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 14:37:15 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org Subject: Re: Progressing BFD authentication documents Message-ID: <20190702183714.GB3974@pfrc.org> References: <20190216170740.GA31558@pfrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20190216170740.GA31558@pfrc.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 18:35:53 -0000 Working Group, A followup on this item. Currently, the status is identical to that which was last posted. Mahesh did make contact with Ciena IPR holders regarding the state of the license. It is their belief that their disclosure is consistent with similar IPR filed against BFD. Citing two similar ones: https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/516/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1419/ It also appears to be their belief that the current wording doesn't require that a license fee is due. However, this is private commentary. At this point, my recommendation to the working group is we decide if we'll proceed with the publication process. Let's use this time prior to IETF 105 to discuss any pending issues on these documents. -- Jeff On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 12:07:40PM -0500, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > Working Group, > > On March 28, 2018, we started Working Group Last Call on the following document > bundle: > > draft-ietf-bfd-secure-sequence-numbers > draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication > draft-ietf-bfd-stability > > The same day, Mahesh Jethanandani acknowledged there was pending IPR > declarations against these drafts. An IPR declaration was finally posted on > November 1, 2018. In particular, it notes a patent. The licenseing is > RAND. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3328/ > > In the time since the WGLC was requested, there were a number of technical > comments made on these drafts. It's my belief that all substantial > technical comments had been addressed in the last posted version of these > documents. Note that there was one lingering comment about Yang > considerations for the BFD module with regard to enabling this optimized > authentication mode which can be dealt with separably. > > The chairs did not carry out a further consensus call to ensure that there > are no further outstanding technical issues. > > On November 21, Greg Mirsky indicated an objection to progressing the > document due to late disclosure. > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/u8rvWwvDWRKI3jseGHecAB9WtDo > > Since we are a little over a month prior to the upcoming IETF 104, this > seems a good time to try to decide how the Working Group shall finish this > work. Since we are meeting in Prague, this may progress to microphone > conversation. > > For the moment, the chairs' perceived status of the documents are: > - No pending technical issues with the documents with one known issue. > - Concerns over late disclosure of IPR. > - No solid consensus from the Working Group that we're ready to proceed. > This part may be covered by a future consensus call, but let's hear list > discussion first. > > -- Jeff From nobody Tue Jul 2 12:03:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 916A312071B for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 12:03:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PsjlxTmw0M7W for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 12:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D42691207AB for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 12:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4B18B1E2F2; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 15:04:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 15:04:22 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org Subject: IETF 105 Message-ID: <20190702190422.GC3974@pfrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 19:03:04 -0000 Working Group, Reshad had put out a call for presentations for IETF 105 in mid-June. As of this time, we don't currently have any agenda requests. A quick status of current work: - BFD for vxlan is undergoing post WGLC expert review at the request of our Area Director. - BFD Authentication drafts need discussion in the working group on how to progress or not. - Unsolicited BFD is stable, and a trivial draft. We've received a prod from the authors asking if the next step is WGLC. - BFD for Large Packets is stable, and waiting on implementations. - BFD in Demand Mode has discussion pending with author and Area Director. Potential future work: - RFC 5884 bis. (RFC 5884 authors willing to contribute.) - BFD v2 or not. Greg seeded the discussion at IETF 104. BFD as a working group needs to meet only if it advances discussion on our work. If we don't have anything requiring group discussion outside of mailing list, we may consider canceling our timeslot. -- Jeff From nobody Tue Jul 2 13:20:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F0F2120172; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:20:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Z6VhdKWlaJN; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x130.google.com (mail-lf1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16EA6120128; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x130.google.com with SMTP id q26so57169lfc.3; Tue, 02 Jul 2019 13:20:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=J45v8CjJdAP5BGvXM+/DWIz3SF9uSyCP+7pfOiiTook=; b=sW4eRovO3F+amS7t+8wLDN+5JktzWNTtZZPIRcQGVl/5vdcnczPro+TCMpPn10gJuL LEWpKf3MJzhdX8YBDa2wywdP09GRaya8CNusYwGN4JdmDrRHNhBiZpBh5MkF4qb6GyBA 7tKzlNKTcxKMYryWFH9Z4kSwyXOSOdm4ZjTTTwQyln3V8Tz5TTlbXBMMdFuPO1hG4nml k26E/ra3nrcoYRtXwvNTTYxTa0oiqsoHgY4jW2YGb7hjj1HFhBYfJB3fGjEpLym+PdUh XPq3T7yCbcmLTPOLY8XO2Q+cmJXS7ASobn5GcYVNIHaBtWK+TTP+aJFyhJBM3X9JHJyH X5TQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=J45v8CjJdAP5BGvXM+/DWIz3SF9uSyCP+7pfOiiTook=; b=sTzliTRehRyZ39vMbp5m41K/3eA8kZn5SNT8bDUGmTZGShJdiAOmMpCeQrDCG1EW/w MBAUvKfPuOotbRzK0sEt4lOGqqFb7BXHAm6QtD5ma1rE/P6auhEuzpL67yf/IDhRujwe W6mbuG8dvNNE1KJxuhxHxIleEF8BvdbZIsKYJdgiEmsWYbkW1E9rYuLpmp35vG3TbHrB Tv+ivu9QEIqCZDZR3wsmUn6hnWOZs7UVTIqwA90YVZKT4o44752UvU5qPjCWPtHgV29X 7ANZGNmlMZ7nG6Xo3mBKcy9cmC6X+JW0vIFV8FbhYCc1uy2iG6pFmQz9M5ub7gTMwRz5 CX0g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUoK9cESJ/OeK2/m3txOL2xnoiVXJQB+I2SNL+utKiAsVdbWOUa SYMU2t4oqeBGXVmNVe3NLy7cHmQw0CR8Ku+UNOTBtw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyasMQFcbLM0lFBKcf9+2LqnljUOuqBaht/xNo4lfknylYNrNxZCoqXe5PzIRlrfzpcVcDk+5+mRlCtLHrsAIs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:24a:: with SMTP id b10mr15917042lfo.37.1562098837626; Tue, 02 Jul 2019 13:20:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156209858171.23916.4131277873518842579.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156209858171.23916.4131277873518842579.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:20:25 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-mirmin-bfd-extended-01.txt To: rtg-bfd WG , bfd-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000522292058cb87adb" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 20:20:42 -0000 --000000000000522292058cb87adb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, in the new version, we've added and described the use of the Lightweight Authentication TLV. Also, clarified the use of the Capability TLV in the course of the Poll sequence. Much appreciate your reviews, comments, and questions. Looking forward to discussing updates in Montreal. Regards, Greg ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 1:16 PM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirmin-bfd-extended-01.txt To: Xiao Min , Gregory Mirsky A new version of I-D, draft-mirmin-bfd-extended-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-mirmin-bfd-extended Revision: 01 Title: Extended Bidirectional Forwarding Detection Document date: 2019-07-02 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 14 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mirmin-bfd-extended-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirmin-bfd-extended/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirmin-bfd-extended-01 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mirmin-bfd-extended Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-mirmin-bfd-extended-01 Abstract: This document describes a mechanism to extend the capabilities of Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD). These extensions enable BFD to measure performance metrics like packet loss and packet delay. Also, a method to perform lightweight on-demand authentication is defined in this specification. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --000000000000522292058cb87adb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,
in the new version, we've added and desc= ribed the use of the Lightweight Authentication TLV. Also, clarified the us= e of the Capability TLV in the course of the Poll sequence.
Much = appreciate your reviews, comments, and questions. Looking forward to discus= sing updates in Montreal.

Regards,
Greg<= br>
---= ------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 1:16 PM
Subject: New Version Notification= for draft-mirmin-bfd-extended-01.txt
To: Xiao Min <xiao.min2@zte.com.cn>, Gregory Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-mirmin-bfd-extended-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-mirmin-bfd-extended
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A001
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Extended Bidirectional Forwarding = Detection
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-07-02
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 14
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mirmin-bfd-extend= ed-01.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirmin-bfd-extended/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirmin-bfd-extended-01
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mirmin-bfd-extended
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-mirmin-bfd-extended-0= 1

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes a mechanism to extend the capabilities= of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD).=C2=A0 These extensio= ns enable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD to measure performance metrics like packet loss and packet= delay.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, a method to perform lightweight on-demand authentication= is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in this specification.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--000000000000522292058cb87adb-- From nobody Tue Jul 2 13:30:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C489120128 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:30:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BNw90UGUrKrV for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E534120100 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id p17so18349976ljg.1 for ; Tue, 02 Jul 2019 13:30:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eRXYZmmK/cFdmbmU2VufiioLYwznr4BHCulqm2geFsA=; b=suVWXDK8eY2Di1Bxj7mE7KdS6+Y43us1wWwOJHdhv9nNeSjVvd8/Ov6j6GzICcsmV1 EpC7dThRbz0GHVY4Cg5RiqJa0Oc4IX0yBpRMyqR9WS3iQ2UG2ukLjoLcgL/ckItgzE7m x1B0iLhdR0FRqtNbjb9hX9MQNlCEYezhDE33P0G3J9MlB5IQotkmpT0ET6AGaic23paZ 4k99kDAkFClquJCmbE4NLKC/I1hFVVHasSP376A6sW7x2uIZpQaj/+X35D0Z7FEh3BtD P66ZU8aKINzCvtThWErEN4DtUn9KmpwYssHg8e7TF7AFvZG+1val+M9gDQqbMfHu8jAt LKAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eRXYZmmK/cFdmbmU2VufiioLYwznr4BHCulqm2geFsA=; b=MF1zscknqIE/RAHWat00TF0JlMO8L1fW2bAZtvBmy2ZhslW2AcbGKm/iZVSXgNxo+T /fyqYKTj4xkBTYrEaI4+H4Bnx5v6kUFL5lfxV3u84X2vnjJ6+SqMXkmY1cTUZs/BIZnV PN/aiiZDpjzDJuN1AGOlZCuK73+/UcAOcrGxlZUPpRoXFMZ+Le3HTWPX0NUJLmV59MUd 3z+xb4zi4+a9h4Ei8dDPnncFQaHFwYFCozeu2ZR7B3E0DN6gIuGW9atDbFDAofMYsEBc Et99Pzqv5DMEQ1v/B7ubnjufd8vUT3rUpKjfsftbjviXKwJVITH8pEN3GJ64+AXO7TAg hL4w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUcc+l7iA2VGVM2Qva+dQUKVtKloyhknf09opx9K4VGNTpD07qZ xjoLq0DKkJz3sK3c3GoWfHg3Tz+RZ/izto1yz2Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwVLc7DX9j1bFiwTzHOhax8lTKXwkfAl/8vsyBGZMIuqulXZYGhGLUqc9FIWCOLazYQbbLWR+BJjNra6iFFIH4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b047:: with SMTP id d7mr18714728ljl.8.1562099433336; Tue, 02 Jul 2019 13:30:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:30:21 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: BFD presentation requests @ IETF105 Montreal To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" Cc: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d3f691058cb89d86" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 20:30:37 -0000 --000000000000d3f691058cb89d86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Reshad, we've updated the Extended BFD draft adding the Lightweight Authentication TLV. Also, clarified the use of the Capabilities TLV in the Poll sequence to address the comment What we want to do at 3.3 msec rate? Appreciate the opportunity to present the updates and discuss with the group in Montreal: draft-mirmin-bfd-extended Presenter: Greg Mirsky Time: 15 min Regards, Greg On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 9:10 AM Reshad Rahman (rrahman) wrote: > BFD WG, > > > > We will be meeting at IETF 105 in Montreal. Please send presentation > requests to the chairs. > > > > Regards, > > Reshad & Jeff. > --000000000000d3f691058cb89d86 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Reshad,
we've updated the Extended BFD draft = adding the Lightweight Authentication TLV. Also, clarified the use of the C= apabilities TLV in the Poll sequence to address the comment What we want to= do at 3.3 msec rate? Appreciate the opportunity to present the updates and= discuss with the group in Montreal:
draft-mirmin-bfd-extended=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Presenter: Greg Mirsky=C2=A0 =C2=A0Time: 15 min
=
Regards,
Greg


On Mon, Jun = 17, 2019 at 9:10 AM Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@cisco.com> wrote:

BFD WG= ,

=C2=A0

We wil= l be meeting at IETF 105 in Montreal. Please send presentation requests to = the chairs.

=C2=A0

Regard= s,

Reshad= & Jeff.

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[79.75.43.71]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5sm4744494wmi.22.2019.07.04.02.44.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Jul 2019 02:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: IETF 105 From: Mahesh Jethanandani In-Reply-To: <20190702190422.GC3974@pfrc.org> Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 10:44:51 +0100 Cc: "rtg-bfd@ietf. org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C53B492-FA2A-477A-860A-C784DFD40BF6@gmail.com> References: <20190702190422.GC3974@pfrc.org> To: Jeffrey Haas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 09:44:58 -0000 Hi Jeff, > On Jul 2, 2019, at 8:04 PM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: >=20 > Working Group, >=20 > Reshad had put out a call for presentations for IETF 105 in mid-June. = As of > this time, we don't currently have any agenda requests. >=20 > A quick status of current work: > - BFD for vxlan is undergoing post WGLC expert review at the request = of our > Area Director. > - BFD Authentication drafts need discussion in the working group on = how to > progress or not. > - Unsolicited BFD is stable, and a trivial draft. We've received a = prod > from the authors asking if the next step is WGLC. > - BFD for Large Packets is stable, and waiting on implementations. > - BFD in Demand Mode has discussion pending with author and Area = Director. >=20 > Potential future work: > - RFC 5884 bis. (RFC 5884 authors willing to contribute.) > - BFD v2 or not. Greg seeded the discussion at IETF 104. >=20 > BFD as a working group needs to meet only if it advances discussion on = our > work. If we don't have anything requiring group discussion outside of > mailing list, we may consider canceling our timeslot. I do see that we need discussion around the authentication draft =E2=80=A6= >=20 > -- Jeff >=20 Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Thu Jul 11 06:25:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B046B12009E; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:42:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u7bUPHw9aoCg; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24829120073; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id v18so3822598ljh.6; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:42:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Z0GAKc8ckYJuN1cJiimhiTzce0ZmlFUQ9E1hoMXdul4=; b=SZSMNDuJXwRMgo3CIvYNC+8RkPrtrRwuhI1JNdr2oyFSKBigxrcr392fdUV7VAmgrc 7Yt07L2o/VqRtyfSCVvt4t9QOOMKmFO6sfqKl3HYUZvBDLbEcPKEU4wFZ11KWFc9Xn4v iPsJtnki8zBSKn9YGopAEPYQ9HbjjuvX0C8ecErvcf9YHIYGZiPxz9dZ/AjUNSB5Hkfn AL5JlV8ijOx6R0yEwJWz/CprwOunktxKzJjLRhVTnU2MeBEJbNSL9koEjLVlOUjTt9aF /RbGG4vggR3n76Z9+V/heZKRFtwXsxlQQV8ncG6GciOEjfPf3hfkGFvJC2wrm4tNHP5R vRUw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Z0GAKc8ckYJuN1cJiimhiTzce0ZmlFUQ9E1hoMXdul4=; b=dqyX0E2wp95otGmOhLgFDTF6iKx6+i4RFOsTdMhjg1sC0zCzrSyKLOFxPxr9lvR9Gs vVX334DWFzN2I3xyDW/HWzlk8e4uTCIpFqIt3gvwr9hb0Wultpq8Tq99CT8RHsWS+t5A ++qJTKjeGc3fbAFXHPusD7p8Ut9yprmVrrHtQz7yVAp7jUN9pmaZ8dSoSrV8yaUqvSM5 hxVte+oZJvVBXv277nHJxyrktKyWOGmv5n3ffGCvEhGm2H0q3VNes6JwANZchcjV8YEq xttvsuxOl7z2JtFaqcRgy5N7ClIG+nsVm6p+ZqbuLmCK50erdtiaQ6pIBd7BkdKFJ4Z9 DR6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVarY9Pr2x5S6n21+RbPNgQGBBojPoupOvxrNzKMQoljfKrj7kq F7Xkj7v0ivilitBTzCMVZ0MUa0bIUGHMZqQuJeM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxY4KUjrQjIRIFswq+0F0Qah+LrVckYVG0j4iEj7/GlYs3F3/Rg+qkSn2EQVG6e5LolJ8JN+JC8kEdWEhaAThM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7614:: with SMTP id r20mr506727ljc.42.1562802158978; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:42:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155933149484.6565.7386019489022348116@ietfa.amsl.com> <14822B96-D3C6-495E-8661-198068F72ABA@cisco.com> <8237FE8D-937E-4BCB-B1A3-89C2B3CDC51C@cisco.com> <0B9FDA17-7F13-4FEC-AE97-40BC9D72C87B@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:42:27 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Level of standardization of the Echo mode of BFD [Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07] To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , rtg-bfd WG , "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan.all@ietf.org" , Olivier Bonaventure , IETF list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008a4a2a058d5c3b7f" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:25:32 -0700 X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:42:47 -0000 --0000000000008a4a2a058d5c3b7f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carlos, apologies for the delayed response. Please find my answers in-line tagged GIM>>. Regards, Greg On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 9:35 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > Hello, Greg, > > Before you asked about RFC 5884, now RFC 5885, neither of which are > references in draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07. Your new request is: > > > I hope that you can help me to answer a question related to the scope o= f > RFC 5885. > > Asking about RFC 5885, published 9 years ago, is another distraction from > the question at hand. It seems like a third-order red-herring, hasty > generalization, or a =E2=80=9Cyou also=E2=80=9D if you are citing RFCs I = co-authored. > > Once again, in my opinion, this does not get you closer to improving or > furthering draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07, which should be the common goal on th= is > thread. > > As a refresher, this was my initial question: > > > >>> > 4. Section 7 says that =E2=80=9C Support for echo BFD is outside = the scope > of this document=E2=80=9D. > > >>> > > > >>> > Assuming this means =E2=80=9CBFD Echo mode=E2=80=9D, why is this = out of scope? > > > I am really interested in understanding what the reason(s) is (are) for > out-scoping BFD Echo. Is it because of technical limitations? Lack of > market demand? Lack of time to know the answer to this question? > > I am not asking for any change, just a question of whether the authors an= d > WG considering the ROI of adding BFD Echo. > GIM>> The question of BFD Echo support over VXLAN, to the best of my recollection, never came up. That sentence was added very early before WG adopted the work. And, as I can recall, there were no questions, nor suggestions to revisit the statement. Said that I propose the following update to the document: - remove section Echo BFD - append Introduction section with "This specification describes procedures only for BFD asynchronous mode." Would these changes be acceptable and sufficient to address your concern with the scope of the document? > > Best, > > Carlos. > > > > On Jun 26, 2019, at 9:22 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > > > Hello Carlos, > > I hope that you can help me to answer a question related to the scope o= f > RFC 5885. In RFC 5885 is stated: > > This specification describes procedures only for BFD asynchronous > mode. > > Neither demand mode, nor Echo function of BFD is explicitly mentioned i= n > RFC 5885. Hence my question If BFD over VXLAN changes from explicitly > excluding the Echo function from the scope of the document to the > definition of the scope like used in RFC 5885, would that address your > concern? > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 5:19 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < > cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > > Hello, Greg, > > > > Thank you for having split this thread. I=E2=80=99ll note for ease of t= racking > that this specific issue is issue #4 our of the six quick comments I sent= . > > > > Now, questions you ask like this one quoted from below: > > > Would you suggest that the scope of RFC 5884 must include the BFD Ech= o > function? > > > > > > Are now second-order red herrings and, once again, not relevant to the > issue =E2=80=94 instead they avoid responding and prevent convergence. In= my > comment, I=E2=80=99m just asking for a technical explanation of why BFD E= cho is out > of scope. > > > > > > Please see inline, your response is incorrect in 3 technical areas that > I enumerate. > > > > > > > On Jun 20, 2019, at 1:30 AM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Carlos, > > > thank you for clarifying your opinion on the applicability of the BFD > Echo mode. > > > > For correctness, I have not issued an "opinion on the applicability of > the BFD Echo mode.=E2=80=9D (Again, please do not mischaracterize!) > > > > My initial question was =E2=80=9Cwhy is this out of scope?=E2=80=9D I b= elieve scoping > should be deliberate and intentional, and hence seeking to understand. > > > > > > > I've split this thread to help us and others to follow the discussion > on this particular issue. I'll note that RFC 5880 does not prohibit the > remote system to perform any kind of processing on the packet received in > the BFD Echo mode. > > > > This is technical mistake #1. > > > > RFC 5880 says: > > > > The Echo function has the advantage of truly testing only the > > forwarding path on the remote system. > > > > > > No other processing on the remote system =E2=80=94 that is the benefit = of Echo. > > > > > > > Even more, Section 6.8.8 explicitly points out that a received Echo > packet is likely to be processed: > > > A means of detecting missing Echo packets > > > MUST be implemented, which most likely involves processing of the > > > Echo packets that are received. The processing of received Echo > > > packets is otherwise outside the scope of this specification. > > > > > > This is technical mistake #2. > > > > What you are quoting is referring to the reception of Echo packet by th= e > Echo packet *sender*. That is, the local system, not the remote system. T= he > Echo packet is received by the same system that sent it (by definition of > Echo!), and thus the node itself needs to demultiplex its own context... > > > > > > > Thus, interoperability is one of the underspecified issues for BFD > Echo. > > > > No. This is technical mistake #2b. > > > > There is no interoperability spec considerations between a system and > itself (unless the sender of BFD Echo has split personality :-) > > > > > > > > > Secondly, the Echo BFD mode has been excluded from the scope of RFC > 5884: > > > Further, the use of the Echo function is outside the scope of this > specification. > > > > This is technical mistake #3. > > > > It is really irrelevant to the question whether RFC 5884, which talks > about BFD for unidirectional MPLS LSPs, scopes out BFD Echo. > > > > As I mentioned in my initial email, "If this is a single logical hop > underneath VXLAN, what=E2=80=99s preventing the use of Echo?=E2=80=9D RFC= 5884 is different > than (and not useful for or relevant to) the scenario in > draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan. > > > > > > > > > Would you suggest that the scope of RFC 5884 must include the BFD Ech= o > function? > > > > > > I do not understand the context of this question. But as I mentioned, > these questions take the thread in a direction that diverges from > resolution. > > > > I have not suggested that any document includes anything. My comment is= : > what is the reason why BFD Echo is out of scope? Technically, this is a > single hop at the VXLAN level for BFD. > > > > > > Best, > > > > Carlos. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Greg > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 2:08 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < > cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > > > Hello, Greg, > > > > > > Yes, happy too answer your question. > > > > > > First, however, let me make two quick observations on the exchange: > > > =E2=80=A2 You seem to be picking very specific fragments or sub= -topics > from my comments, and following up on those only. > > > =E2=80=A2 I=E2=80=99m happy to continue answering these questio= ns, but they are > orthogonal to (and consequently a distraction from) the initial comments = I > raised. > > > > > > Now, your question: the BFD Echo packet format is generically spec=E2= =80=99ed > and defined in Section 5 of RFC 5880: > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-5 > > > > > > The most relevant part is this: > > > > > > The payload of a BFD Echo packet is a local matter, since only the > > > sending system ever processes the content. The only requirement i= s > > > that sufficient information is included to demultiplex the receive= d > > > packet to the correct BFD session after it is looped back to the > > > sender. > > > > > > Since the remote system does not process the echo packet content, it > is a local matter only. And given the fact that, as such, there is no > interoperability implications, there is no need to over-specify the packe= t > format. The only requirement is that the sending system needs to be able = to > map it to a session when it boomerangs back. > > > > > > No, it is generally not (i.e., does not need to be, but there=E2=80= =99s > freedom to potentially be) a BFD control packet. > > > Yes, it can be something else. > > > > > > That said, the packet format for BFD Echo has, to my analysis and > understanding, no relevancy on the questions below. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Carlos. > > > > > >> On Jun 20, 2019, at 12:50 AM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > >> > > >> Hello Carlos, > > >> could you please refer me to the specification of BFD that defines > the message format that is used in the Echo mode of BFD. Is it the BFD > control packet? Something else? > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> Greg > > >> > > >> > > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:09 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < > cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > > >> Hello, Greg, > > >> > > >> Please see inline. > > >> > > >>> On Jun 19, 2019, at 9:58 PM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Hello Carlos, > > >>> thank you for the expedient clarification. > > >>> To your questions on demultiplexing BFD control packets with the > zero value of the Your Discriminator field: > > >>> =E2=80=A2 only BFD control packets with the zero value of the Y= our > Discriminator field are demultiplexed using the information of the inner = IP > header. I believe that the text is clear and requires that all fields of > the inner IP header must be used to demultiplex a received BFD control > packet with the zero value in the Your Discriminator field. Which of the > fields an implementation uses to create multiple BFD sessions between the > pair of VTEPs is implementation specific. > > >> This text is repeating was is in the draft, but does not answer any > of my questions. > > >> > > >> For example: > > >> 1. "that all fields of the inner IP header must be used to > demultiplex a received BFD control packet=E2=80=9D > > >> -> The text does not say =E2=80=9Call fields=E2=80=9D, but regar= dless, do you > mean the DSCP and the Evil Bit? IPv6 Flow Label? How *exactly*? > > >> 2. How is the mapping of IP (not UDP?) fields to BFD session done? > > >> 3. How is this state created and maintained? > > >> 4. Since this is a set of fields on which two systems need to agree > (which fields from the inner IP/UDP are mapped needs to be understood by > both systems), it cannot be =E2=80=9Cimplementation specific=E2=80=9D. Fu= rther, the text > does not say so. > > >> > > >>> To your point on the level Echo mode of BFD is specified in RFC 588= 0 > I'll quote the opinion of Jeffrey Haas from the discussion of comments fr= om > Shawn Emery on behalf of the SecDir. Shawn had commented: > > >>> Echo BFD is out of scope for the document, but does not describe th= e > reason for this or why state > > >>> this at all? > > >>> I've responded: > > >>> GIM>> I think that the main reason is that the BFD Echo mode is > underspecified. RFC 5880 defined some of the mechanisms related to the Ec= ho > mode, but more standardization work may be required. > > >>> And Jeffrey Haas had added: > > >>> Speaking as a BFD chair, this is the relevant observation. BFD Ech= o > is > > >>> underspecified to the point where claiming compliance is difficult > at best. > > >>> In general, it relies on single-hop and the ability to have the > remote Echo > > >>> client loop the packets. > > >> > > >> BFD Echo cannot be specified in RFC 5880 base spec because it is > application specific. > > >> > > >>> > > >>> This packet loop may not be practical for several encapsulations an= d > thus is > > >>> out of scope for such encapsulations. Whether this is practical fo= r > vxlan > > >>> today, or in the presence of future extensions to vxlan is left out > of scope > > >>> for the core proposal. > > >> > > >> The question remains: for VXLAN encapsulation, this is like a single > hop as far as BFD is concerned (single hop VXLAN tunnel). > > >> > > >> Since RFC 5881 defines Echo for single hop, can you please elaborate > (in the document) why is out of scope or how it can work? > > >> > > >> Best, > > >> > > >> Carlos. > > >> > > >>> > > >>> Will respond to other questions in a separate mail. > > >>> > > >>> Regards, > > >>> Greg > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:31 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < > cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > > >>> Hello, Greg, > > >>> > > >>> > On Jun 19, 2019, at 9:09 PM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > >>> > > > >>> > Hi Carlos, > > >>> > thank you for reminding of our continued discussion with Joel. We > are seeking comments from VXLAN experts and much appreciate if you have > insights on VXLAN to share. > > >>> > I've got some clarifying questions before I can respond to you. > > >>> > > >>> Sure. > > >>> > > >>> > To which stage of the three-way handshake you refer as "initial > demultiplexing"? I couldn't find this term in RFC 5880. > > >>> > > >>> =E2=80=9CInitial demultiplexing" is a well-known term in BFD, refer= ring to > the "demultiplexing of the initial packets", BFD Control packet with > YourDisc being zero. > > >>> > > >>> In RFC 5880, see Section 6.3. > > >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-6.3 > > >>> > > >>> The method of demultiplexing the initial packets (in which Your > > >>> Discriminator is zero) is application dependent, and is thus > outside > > >>> the scope of this specification. > > >>> > > >>> Since initial demultiplexing is indeed application specific, > different for one-hop versus multi-hop and dependent upon whether a singl= e > or multiple sessions are allowed between a pair of endpoints, I added bel= ow > two other relevant citations, from application specific BFD specs: > > >>> 1. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5883#section-4 > > >>> 2. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5882#section-6 > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Regarding the applicability of the Echo mode, thank you for > pointing to the need for stricter terminology, the Echo mode, as defined = in > RFC 5880, is underspecified and it will require additional standardizatio= n. > > >>> > > >>> No. BFD Echo is not underspecified in RFC 5880. > > >>> > > >>> Please read S5: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-5 > > >>> > > >>> BFD Echo packets are sent in an encapsulation appropriate to the > > >>> environment. See the appropriate application documents for the > > >>> specifics of particular environments. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> BFD Echo is application dependent. > > >>> > > >>> Therefore, for example, single-hop BFD in RFC 5881 specifies BFD > Echo for that application. > > >>> > > >>> Hence, my question stands: why is this draft claiming BFD Echo is > out of scope for this BFD application document? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Future drafts may explore and define how the Echo mode of BFD is > used over VXLAN tunnels. > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> See above. > > >>> > > >>> > Will review and respond to the remaining questions soon. > > >>> > > >>> Thank you. > > >>> > > >>> The "remaining questions" are still all the questions below :-) > > >>> > > >>> Best, > > >>> > > >>> Carlos. > > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > Regards, > > >>> > Greg > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:14 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < > cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > > >>> > Hi, > > >>> > > > >>> > I have not reviewed this draft before, but triggered by this > email, and briefly scanning through a couple of sections, it is unclear t= o > me how some of the mechanics work. > > >>> > > > >>> > There are some major issues with the Mac usage and association, a= s > Joel Halpern mentioned in his Rtg Dir review. > > >>> > > > >>> > And, additionally, please consider the following comments and > questions: > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > 1. Underspecification for initialization and initial > demultiplexing. > > >>> > > > >>> > This document allows multiple BFD sessions between a single pair > of VTEPs: > > >>> > > > >>> > An > > >>> > implementation that supports this specification MUST be able t= o > > >>> > control the number of BFD sessions that can be created between > the > > >>> > same pair of VTEPs. > > >>> > > > >>> > The implication of this is that BFD single-hop initialization > procedures will not work. Instead, there is a need to map the initial > demultiplexing. > > >>> > > > >>> > This issue is explained in RFCs 5882 and 5883: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5883#section-4 and > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5882#section-6 > > >>> > > > >>> > Section 5.1 says: > > >>> > > > >>> > For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified > > >>> > using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP, the destination > IP, and > > >>> > the source UDP port number present in the IP header carried by > the > > >>> > payload of the VXLAN encapsulated packet. The VNI of the pack= et > > >>> > SHOULD be used to derive interface-related information for > > >>> > demultiplexing the packet. > > >>> > > > >>> > But this does not really explain how to do the initial > demultiplexing. Does each BFD session need to have a separate inner sourc= e > IP address? Or source UDP port? And how ofter are they recycled or kept a= s > state? How are these mapped? > > >>> > Equally importantly, which side is Active? > > >>> > And what if there=E2=80=99s a race condition with both sides bein= g Active > and setting up redundant sessions? > > >>> > > > >>> > 1.b. By the way, based on this, using S-BFD [RFC 7880] might be > easier to demux. > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > 2. Security > > >>> > > > >>> > This document says that the TTL in the inner packet carrying BFD > is set to 1. However, RFC 5880 says to use GTSM [RFC 5082], i.e., a value > of 255.. > > >>> > > > >>> > Why is GTSM not used here? > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > 3. ECMP and fate-sharing under-specification: > > >>> > > > >>> > Section 4.1. says: > > >>> > > > >>> > The Outer IP/UDP > > >>> > and VXLAN headers MUST be encoded by the sender as defined in > > >>> > [RFC7348]. > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > And RFC 7348 says: > > >>> > > > >>> > - Source Port: It is recommended that the UDP source port > number > > >>> > be calculated using a hash of fields from the inner > packet -- > > >>> > one example being a hash of the inner Ethernet frame's > headers. > > >>> > This is to enable a level of entropy for the ECMP/load- > > >>> > balancing of the VM-to-VM traffic across the VXLAN > overlay. > > >>> > When calculating the UDP source port number in this > manner, it > > >>> > is RECOMMENDED that the value be in the dynamic/private > port > > >>> > range 49152-65535 [RFC6335]. > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > Based on this, depending on the hashing calculation, the outer > source UDP port can be different leading to different ECMP treatment. Doe= s > something else need to be specified here in regards to the outer UDP sour= ce > port? > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > 4. Section 7 says that =E2=80=9C Support for echo BFD is outside = the scope > of this document=E2=80=9D. > > >>> > > > >>> > Assuming this means =E2=80=9CBFD Echo mode=E2=80=9D, why is this = out of scope? If > this is a single logical hop underneath VXLAN, what=E2=80=99s preventing = the use of > Echo? Echo=E2=80=99s benefits are huge. > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > 5. Terminology > > >>> > > > >>> > Implementations SHOULD ensure that the BFD > > >>> > packets follow the same lookup path as VXLAN data packets > within the > > >>> > sender system. > > >>> > > > >>> > What is a =E2=80=9Clook up path within a sender system=E2=80=9D? > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > 6. Deployment scenarios > > >>> > > > >>> > S3 says: > > >>> > Figure 1 illustrates the scenario with two servers, each of th= em > > >>> > hosting two VMs. The servers host VTEPs that terminate two > VXLAN > > >>> > [=E2=80=A6] > > >>> > Figure 1: Reference VXLAN Domain > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > However, RFC 7348 Figure 3 lists that as one deployment scenario, > not as =E2=80=9Cthe scenario=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CThe Reference VXLAN Do= main=E2=80=9D. > > >>> > > > >>> > Best, > > >>> > > > >>> > Carlos. > > >>> > > > >>> >> On Jun 17, 2019, at 12:58 AM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Hi Oliver, > > >>> >> thank you for your thorough review, clear and detailed questions= . > My apologies for the delay to respond. Please find my answers below in-li= ne > tagged GIM>>. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Regards, > > >>> >> Greg > > >>> >> > > >>> >> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 12:38 PM Olivier Bonaventure via > Datatracker wrote: > > >>> >> Reviewer: Olivier Bonaventure > > >>> >> Review result: Ready with Issues > > >>> >> > > >>> >> This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area > review team's > > >>> >> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were > written > > >>> >> primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to th= e > document's > > >>> >> authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and > also to the IETF > > >>> >> discussion list for information. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should > consider this > > >>> >> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please > always CC > > >>> >> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> I have only limited knowledge of VXLAN and do not know all > subtleties of BFD. > > >>> >> This review is thus more from a generalist than a specialist in > this topic. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Major issues > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Section 4 requires that " Implementations SHOULD ensure that the > BFD > > >>> >> packets follow the same lookup path as VXLAN data packets > within the > > >>> >> sender system." > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Why is this requirement only relevant for the lookup path on the > sender system > > >>> >> ? What does this sentence really implies ? > > >>> >> GIM>> RFC 5880 set the scope of the fault detection of BFD > protocol as > > >>> >> ... the bidirectional path between two forwarding engines, > including > > >>> >> interfaces, data link(s), and to the extent possible the > forwarding > > >>> >> engines themselves ... > > >>> >> The requirement aimed to the forwarding engine of a BFD system > that transmits BFD control packets over VXLAN tunnel. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Is it a requirement that the BFD packets follow the same path as > the data > > >>> >> packet for a given VXLAN ? I guess so. In this case, the documen= t > should > > >>> >> discuss how Equal Cost Multipath could affect this. > > >>> >> GIM>> I think that ECMP environment is more likely to be > experienced by a transit node in the underlay. If the BFD session is used > to monitor the specific underlay path, then, I agree, we should explain > that using the VXLAN payload information to draw path entropy may cause > data and BFD packets following different underlay routes. But, on the oth= er > hand, that is the case for OAM and fault detection in all overlay network= s > in general. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Minor issues > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Section 1 > > >>> >> > > >>> >> You write "The asynchronous mode of BFD, as defined in [RFC5880]= , > > >>> >> can be used to monitor a p2p VXLAN tunnel." > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Why do you use the word can ? It is a possibility or a > requirement ? > > >>> >> GIM>> In principle, BFD Demand mode may be used to monitor p2p > paths as well, I agree, will re-word to more assertive: > > >>> >> The asynchronous mode of BFD, as defined in [RFC5880], > > >>> >> is used to monitor a p2p VXLAN tunnel. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> NVE has not been defined before and is not in the terminology. > > >>> >> GIM>> Will add to the Terminology and expand as: > > >>> >> NVE Network Virtualization Endpoint > > >>> >> > > >>> >> This entire section is not easy to read for an outsider. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Section 3 > > >>> >> > > >>> >> VNI has not been defined > > >>> >> GIM>> Will add to the Terminology section: > > >>> >> VNI VXLAN Network Identifier (or VXLAN Segment ID) > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Figure 1 could take less space > > >>> >> GIM>> Yes, can make it bit denser. Would the following be an > improvement? > > >>> >> > > >>> >> +------------+-------------+ > > >>> >> | Server 1 | > > >>> >> | +----+----+ +----+----+ | > > >>> >> | |VM1-1 | |VM1-2 | | > > >>> >> | |VNI 100 | |VNI 200 | | > > >>> >> | | | | | | > > >>> >> | +---------+ +---------+ | > > >>> >> | Hypervisor VTEP (IP1) | > > >>> >> +--------------------------+ > > >>> >> | > > >>> >> | +-------------+ > > >>> >> | | Layer 3 | > > >>> >> +---| Network | > > >>> >> +-------------+ > > >>> >> | > > >>> >> +-----------+ > > >>> >> | > > >>> >> > +------------+-------------+ > > >>> >> | Hypervisor VTEP > (IP2) | > > >>> >> | +----+----+ > +----+----+ | > > >>> >> | |VM2-1 | |VM2-2 > | | > > >>> >> | |VNI 100 | |VNI 200 > | | > > >>> >> | | | | > | | > > >>> >> | +---------+ > +---------+ | > > >>> >> | Server 2 > | > > >>> >> > +--------------------------+ > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Section 4 > > >>> >> > > >>> >> I do not see the benefits of having one paragraph in Section 4 > followed by only > > >>> >> Section 4.1 > > >>> >> GIM>> Will merge Section 4.1 into 4 with minor required > re-wording: > > >>> >> 4. BFD Packet Transmission over VXLAN Tunnel > > >>> >> > > >>> >> BFD packet MUST be encapsulated and sent to a remote VTEP as > > >>> >> explained in this section. Implementations SHOULD ensure tha= t > the > > >>> >> BFD packets follow the same lookup path as VXLAN data packets > within > > >>> >> the sender system. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> BFD packets are encapsulated in VXLAN as described below. Th= e > VXLAN > > >>> >> packet format is defined in Section 5 of [RFC7348]. The Oute= r > IP/UDP > > >>> >> and VXLAN headers MUST be encoded by the sender as defined in > > >>> >> [RFC7348]. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Section 4.1 > > >>> >> > > >>> >> The document does not specify when a dedicated MAC address or th= e > MAC address > > >>> >> of the destination VTEP must be used. This could affect the > interoperability of > > >>> >> implementations. Should all implementations support both the > dedicated MAC > > >>> >> address and the destination MAC address ? > > >>> >> GIM>> After further discussion, authors decided to remove the > request for the dedicated MAC address allocation. Only the MAC address of > the remote VTEP must be used as the destination MAC address in the inner > Ethernet frame. Please check the attached diff between the -07 and the > working versions or the working version of the draft. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> It is unclear from this section whether IPv4 inside IPv6 and the > opposite > > >>> >> should be supported or not. > > >>> >> GIM>> Any combination of outer IPvX and inner IPvX is possible. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Section 5. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> If the received packet does not match the dedicated MAC address > nor the MAC > > >>> >> address of the VTEP, should the packet be silently discarded or > treated > > >>> >> differently ? > > >>> >> GIM>> As I've mentioned earlier, authors have decided to remove > the use of the dedicated MAC address for BFD over VXLAN. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Section 5.1 > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Is this a modification to section 6.3 of RFC5880 ? This is not > clear > > >>> >> GIM>> I think that this section is not modification but the > definition of the application-specific procedure that is outside the scop= e > of RFC 5880: > > >>> >> The method of demultiplexing the initial packets (in which Yo= ur > > >>> >> Discriminator is zero) is application dependent, and is thus > outside > > >>> >> the scope of this specification. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Section 9 > > >>> >> > > >>> >> The sentence " Throttling MAY be relaxed for BFD packets > > >>> >> based on port number." is unclear. > > >>> >> GIM>> Yes, thank you for pointing to this. The updated text, in > the whole paragraph, is as follows: > > >>> >> NEW TEXT: > > >>> >> The document requires setting the inner IP TTL to 1, which > could be > > >>> >> used as a DDoS attack vector. Thus the implementation MUST > have > > >>> >> throttling in place to control the rate of BFD control packet= s > sent > > >>> >> to the control plane. On the other hand, over aggressive > throttling > > >>> >> of BFD control packets may become the cause of the inability > to form > > >>> >> and maintain BFD session at scale. Hence, throttling of BFD > control > > >>> >> packets SHOULD be adjusted to permit BFD to work according to > its > > >>> >> procedures. > > >>> >> draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-08.txt.html> > > >>> > > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > --0000000000008a4a2a058d5c3b7f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Carlos,
apologies for the delayed = response. Please find my answers in-line tagged GIM>>.

=
Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 9:35 AM Carl= os Pignataro (cpignata) <cpignata@= cisco.com> wrote:
Hello, Greg,

Before you asked about RFC 5884, now RFC 5885, neither of which are referen= ces in draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07. Your new request is:

> I hope that you can help me to answer a question related to the scope = of RFC 5885.

Asking about RFC 5885, published 9 years ago, is another distraction from t= he question at hand. It seems like a third-order red-herring, hasty general= ization, or a =E2=80=9Cyou also=E2=80=9D if you are citing RFCs I co-author= ed.

Once again, in my opinion, this does not get you closer to improving or fur= thering draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07, which should be the common goal on this th= read.

As a refresher, this was my initial question:

> >>> > 4. Section 7 says that =E2=80=9C Support for echo BF= D is outside the scope of this document=E2=80=9D.
> >>> >
> >>> > Assuming this means =E2=80=9CBFD Echo mode=E2=80=9D,= why is this out of scope?


I am really interested in understanding what the reason(s) is (are) for out= -scoping BFD Echo. Is it because of technical limitations? Lack of market d= emand? Lack of time to know the answer to this question?

I am not asking for any change, just a question of whether the authors and = WG considering the ROI of adding BFD Echo.
GIM>>= The question of BFD Echo support over VXLAN, to the best of my recollectio= n, never came up. That sentence was added very early before WG adopted the = work. And, as I can recall, there were no questions, nor suggestions to rev= isit the statement. Said that I propose the following update to the documen= t:
  • remove section Echo BFD
  • append Introduction se= ction with
"This specificati= on describes procedures only for BFD asynchronous mode."=C2=A0
Would these changes be acceptable and sufficient to addres= s your concern with the scope of the document?

Best,

Carlos.


> On Jun 26, 2019, at 9:22 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Carlos,
> I hope that you can help me to answer a question related to the scope = of RFC 5885. In RFC 5885 is stated:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This specification describes procedures only for BFD asyn= chronous mode.
> Neither demand mode, nor Echo function of BFD is explicitly mentioned = in RFC 5885. Hence my question If BFD over VXLAN changes from explicitly ex= cluding the Echo function from the scope of the document to the definition = of the scope like used in RFC 5885, would that address your concern?
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 5:19 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <cpignata@cisco.com>= ; wrote:
> Hello, Greg,
>
> Thank you for having split this thread. I=E2=80=99ll note for ease of = tracking that this specific issue is issue #4 our of the six quick comments= I sent.
>
> Now, questions you ask like this one quoted from below:
> > Would you suggest that the scope of RFC 5884 must include the BFD= Echo function?
>
>
> Are now second-order red herrings and, once again, not relevant to the= issue =E2=80=94 instead they avoid responding and prevent convergence. In = my comment, I=E2=80=99m just asking for a technical explanation of why BFD = Echo is out of scope.
>
>
> Please see inline, your response is incorrect in 3 technical areas tha= t I enumerate.
>
>
> > On Jun 20, 2019, at 1:30 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:=
> >
> > Hi Carlos,
> > thank you for clarifying your opinion on the applicability of the= BFD Echo mode.
>
> For correctness, I have not issued an "opinion on the applicabili= ty of the BFD Echo mode.=E2=80=9D (Again, please do not mischaracterize!) <= br> >
> My initial question was =E2=80=9Cwhy is this out of scope?=E2=80=9D I = believe scoping should be deliberate and intentional, and hence seeking to = understand.
>
>
> > I've split this thread to help us and others to follow the di= scussion on this particular issue. I'll note that RFC 5880 does not pro= hibit the remote system to perform any kind of processing on the packet rec= eived in the BFD Echo mode.
>
> This is technical mistake #1.
>
> RFC 5880 says:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The Echo function has the advantage of truly testing only= the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 forwarding path on the remote system.
>
>
> No other processing on the remote system =E2=80=94 that is the benefit= of Echo.
>
>
> > Even more, Section 6.8.8 explicitly points out that a received Ec= ho packet is likely to be processed:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A means of detecting missing Echo packets
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST be implemented, which most likely involves proc= essing of the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Echo packets that are received.=C2=A0 The processing= of received Echo
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packets is otherwise outside the scope of this speci= fication.
>
>
> This is technical mistake #2.
>
> What you are quoting is referring to the reception of Echo packet by t= he Echo packet *sender*. That is, the local system, not the remote system. = The Echo packet is received by the same system that sent it (by definition = of Echo!), and thus the node itself needs to demultiplex its own context...=
>
>
> > Thus, interoperability is one of the underspecified issues for BF= D Echo.
>
> No. This is technical mistake #2b.
>
> There is no interoperability spec considerations between a system and = itself (unless the sender of BFD Echo has split personality :-)
>
>
>
> > Secondly, the Echo BFD mode has been excluded from the scope of R= FC 5884:
> > Further, the use of the Echo function is outside the scope of thi= s specification.
>
> This is technical mistake #3.
>
> It is really irrelevant to the question whether RFC 5884, which talks = about BFD for unidirectional MPLS LSPs, scopes out BFD Echo.
>
> As I mentioned in my initial email, "If this is a single logical = hop underneath VXLAN, what=E2=80=99s preventing the use of Echo?=E2=80=9D R= FC 5884 is different than (and not useful for or relevant to) the scenario = in draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan.
>
>
>
> > Would you suggest that the scope of RFC 5884 must include the BFD= Echo function?
>
>
> I do not understand the context of this question. But as I mentioned, = these questions take the thread in a direction that diverges from resolutio= n.
>
> I have not suggested that any document includes anything. My comment i= s: what is the reason why BFD Echo is out of scope? Technically, this is a = single hop at the VXLAN level for BFD.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Carlos.
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 2:08 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <<= a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hello, Greg,
> >
> > Yes, happy too answer your question.
> >
> > First, however, let me make two quick observations on the exchang= e:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 You seem to be picking very s= pecific fragments or sub-topics from my comments, and following up on those= only.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 I=E2=80=99m happy to continue= answering these questions, but they are orthogonal to (and consequently a = distraction from) the initial comments I raised.
> >
> > Now, your question: the BFD Echo packet format is generically spe= c=E2=80=99ed and defined in Section 5 of RFC 5880:
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880#section-5=
> >
> > The most relevant part is this:
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The payload of a BFD Echo packet is a local matter, = since only the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sending system ever processes the content.=C2=A0 The= only requirement is
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that sufficient information is included to demultipl= ex the received
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet to the correct BFD session after it is looped= back to the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sender.
> >
> > Since the remote system does not process the echo packet content,= it is a local matter only. And given the fact that, as such, there is no i= nteroperability implications, there is no need to over-specify the packet f= ormat. The only requirement is that the sending system needs to be able to = map it to a session when it boomerangs back.
> >
> > No, it is generally not (i.e., does not need to be, but there=E2= =80=99s freedom to potentially be) a BFD control packet.
> > Yes, it can be something else.
> >
> > That said, the packet format for BFD Echo has, to my analysis and= understanding, no relevancy on the questions below.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Carlos.
> >
> >> On Jun 20, 2019, at 12:50 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> w= rote:
> >>
> >> Hello Carlos,
> >> could you please refer me to the specification of BFD that de= fines the message format that is used in the Echo mode of BFD. Is it the BF= D control packet? Something else?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Greg
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:09 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) = <cpignata@cisco.= com> wrote:
> >> Hello, Greg,
> >>
> >> Please see inline.
> >>
> >>> On Jun 19, 2019, at 9:58 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hello Carlos,
> >>> thank you for the expedient clarification.
> >>> To your questions on demultiplexing BFD control packets w= ith the zero value of the Your Discriminator field:
> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 only BFD control packets wit= h the zero value of the Your Discriminator field are demultiplexed using th= e information of the inner IP header. I believe that the text is clear and = requires that all fields of the inner IP header must be used to demultiplex= a received BFD control packet with the zero value in the Your Discriminato= r field. Which of the fields an implementation uses to create multiple BFD = sessions between the pair of VTEPs is implementation specific.
> >> This text is repeating was is in the draft, but does not answ= er any of my questions.
> >>
> >> For example:
> >> 1. "that all fields of the inner IP header must be used = to demultiplex a received BFD control packet=E2=80=9D
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-> The text does not say =E2=80=9Call f= ields=E2=80=9D, but regardless, do you mean the DSCP and the Evil Bit? IPv6= Flow Label? How *exactly*?
> >> 2. How is the mapping of IP (not UDP?) fields to BFD session = done?
> >> 3. How is this state created and maintained?
> >> 4. Since this is a set of fields on which two systems need to= agree (which fields from the inner IP/UDP are mapped needs to be understoo= d by both systems), it cannot be =E2=80=9Cimplementation specific=E2=80=9D.= Further, the text does not say so.
> >>
> >>> To your point on the level Echo mode of BFD is specified = in RFC 5880 I'll quote the opinion of Jeffrey Haas from the discussion = of comments from Shawn Emery on behalf of the SecDir. Shawn had commented:<= br> > >>> Echo BFD is out of scope for the document, but does not d= escribe the reason for this or why state
> >>> this at all?
> >>> I've responded:
> >>> GIM>> I think that the main reason is that the BFD = Echo mode is underspecified. RFC 5880 defined some of the mechanisms relate= d to the Echo mode, but more standardization work may be required.=C2=A0 > >>> And Jeffrey Haas had added:
> >>> Speaking as a BFD chair, this is the relevant observation= .=C2=A0 BFD Echo is
> >>> underspecified to the point where claiming compliance is = difficult at best.
> >>> In general, it relies on single-hop and the ability to ha= ve the remote Echo
> >>> client loop the packets.
> >>
> >> BFD Echo cannot be specified in RFC 5880 base spec because it= is application specific.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> This packet loop may not be practical for several encapsu= lations and thus is
> >>> out of scope for such encapsulations.=C2=A0 Whether this = is practical for vxlan
> >>> today, or in the presence of future extensions to vxlan i= s left out of scope
> >>> for the core proposal.=C2=A0
> >>
> >> The question remains: for VXLAN encapsulation, this is like a= single hop as far as BFD is concerned (single hop VXLAN tunnel).
> >>
> >> Since RFC 5881 defines Echo for single hop, can you please el= aborate (in the document) why is out of scope or how it can work?
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Carlos.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Will respond to other questions in a separate mail.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Greg
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:31 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpigna= ta) <cpignata@ci= sco.com> wrote:
> >>> Hello, Greg,
> >>>
> >>> > On Jun 19, 2019, at 9:09 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Hi Carlos,
> >>> > thank you for reminding of our continued discussion = with Joel. We are seeking comments from VXLAN experts and much appreciate i= f you have insights on VXLAN to share.
> >>> > I've got some clarifying questions before I can = respond to you.
> >>>
> >>> Sure.
> >>>
> >>> > To which stage of the three-way handshake you refer = as "initial demultiplexing"? I couldn't find this term in RFC= 5880.
> >>>
> >>> =E2=80=9CInitial demultiplexing" is a well-known ter= m in BFD, referring to the "demultiplexing of the initial packets"= ;, BFD Control packet with YourDisc being zero.
> >>>
> >>> In RFC 5880, see Section 6.3.
> >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880= #section-6.3
> >>>
> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The method of demultiplexing the initial pac= kets (in which Your
> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Discriminator is zero) is application depend= ent, and is thus outside
> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the scope of this specification.
> >>>
> >>> Since initial demultiplexing is indeed application specif= ic, different for one-hop versus multi-hop and dependent upon whether a sin= gle or multiple sessions are allowed between a pair of endpoints, I added b= elow two other relevant citations, from application specific BFD specs:
> >>> 1. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc588= 3#section-4
> >>> 2. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc588= 2#section-6
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > Regarding the applicability of the Echo mode, thank = you for pointing to the need for stricter terminology, the Echo mode, as de= fined in RFC 5880, is underspecified and it will require additional standar= dization.
> >>>
> >>> No. BFD Echo is not underspecified in RFC 5880.
> >>>
> >>> Please read S5: https://tools.ietf.or= g/html/rfc5880#section-5
> >>>
> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFD Echo packets are sent in an encapsulatio= n appropriate to the
> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 environment.=C2=A0 See the appropriate appli= cation documents for the
> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 specifics of particular environments.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> BFD Echo is application dependent.
> >>>
> >>> Therefore, for example, single-hop BFD in RFC 5881 specif= ies BFD Echo for that application.
> >>>
> >>> Hence, my question stands: why is this draft claiming BFD= Echo is out of scope for this BFD application document?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > Future drafts may explore and define how the Echo mo= de of BFD is used over VXLAN tunnels.
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> See above.
> >>>
> >>> > Will review and respond to the remaining questions s= oon.
> >>>
> >>> Thank you.
> >>>
> >>> The "remaining questions" are still all the que= stions below :-)
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>>
> >>> Carlos.
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> > Regards,
> >>> > Greg
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:14 AM Carlos Pignataro (cp= ignata) <cpignat= a@cisco.com> wrote:
> >>> > Hi,
> >>> >
> >>> > I have not reviewed this draft before, but triggered= by this email, and briefly scanning through a couple of sections, it is un= clear to me how some of the mechanics work.
> >>> >
> >>> > There are some major issues with the Mac usage and a= ssociation, as Joel Halpern mentioned in his Rtg Dir review.
> >>> >
> >>> > And, additionally, please consider the following com= ments and questions:
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > 1. Underspecification for initialization and initial= demultiplexing.
> >>> >
> >>> > This document allows multiple BFD sessions between a= single pair of VTEPs:
> >>> >
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 An
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 implementation that supports this speci= fication MUST be able to
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 control the number of BFD sessions that= can be created between the
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 same pair of VTEPs.
> >>> >
> >>> > The implication of this is that BFD single-hop initi= alization procedures will not work. Instead, there is a need to map the ini= tial demultiplexing.
> >>> >
> >>> > This issue is explained in RFCs 5882 and 5883: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5883#section-4 and https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5882#section-6
> >>> >
> >>> > Section 5.1 says:
> >>> >
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 For such packets, the BFD session MUST = be identified
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 using the inner headers, i.e., the sour= ce IP, the destination IP, and
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the source UDP port number present in t= he IP header carried by the
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 payload of the VXLAN encapsulated packe= t.=C2=A0 The VNI of the packet
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SHOULD be used to derive interface-rela= ted information for
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 demultiplexing the packet.
> >>> >
> >>> > But this does not really explain how to do the initi= al demultiplexing. Does each BFD session need to have a separate inner sour= ce IP address? Or source UDP port? And how ofter are they recycled or kept = as state? How are these mapped?
> >>> > Equally importantly, which side is Active?
> >>> > And what if there=E2=80=99s a race condition with bo= th sides being Active and setting up redundant sessions?
> >>> >
> >>> > 1.b. By the way, based on this, using S-BFD [RFC 788= 0] might be easier to demux.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > 2. Security
> >>> >
> >>> > This document says that the TTL in the inner packet = carrying BFD is set to 1. However, RFC 5880 says to use GTSM [RFC 5082], i.= e., a value of 255..
> >>> >
> >>> > Why is GTSM not used here?
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > 3. ECMP and fate-sharing under-specification:
> >>> >
> >>> > Section 4.1. says:
> >>> >
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The Outer IP/UDP
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and VXLAN headers MUST be encoded by th= e sender as defined in
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC7348].
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > And RFC 7348 says:
> >>> >
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 Source Port:=C2=A0= It is recommended that the UDP source port number
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be calculated usin= g a hash of fields from the inner packet --
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 one example being = a hash of the inner Ethernet frame's headers.
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is to enable = a level of entropy for the ECMP/load-
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 balancing of the V= M-to-VM traffic across the VXLAN overlay.
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 When calculating t= he UDP source port number in this manner, it
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is RECOMMENDED tha= t the value be in the dynamic/private port
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 range 49152-65535 = [RFC6335].
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Based on this, depending on the hashing calculation,= the outer source UDP port can be different leading to different ECMP treat= ment. Does something else need to be specified here in regards to the outer= UDP source port?
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > 4. Section 7 says that =E2=80=9C Support for echo BF= D is outside the scope of this document=E2=80=9D.
> >>> >
> >>> > Assuming this means =E2=80=9CBFD Echo mode=E2=80=9D,= why is this out of scope? If this is a single logical hop underneath VXLAN= , what=E2=80=99s preventing the use of Echo? Echo=E2=80=99s benefits are hu= ge.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > 5. Terminology
> >>> >
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Implementations SHOULD ensure that the = BFD
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packets follow the same lookup path as = VXLAN data packets within the
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sender system.
> >>> >
> >>> > What is a =E2=80=9Clook up path within a sender syst= em=E2=80=9D?
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > 6. Deployment scenarios
> >>> >
> >>> > S3 says:
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 1 illustrates the scenario with = two servers, each of them
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 hosting two VMs.=C2=A0 The servers host= VTEPs that terminate two VXLAN
> >>> > [=E2=80=A6]
> >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 1: Reference VXLAN Domain
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > However, RFC 7348 Figure 3 lists that as one deploym= ent scenario, not as =E2=80=9Cthe scenario=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CThe Refere= nce VXLAN Domain=E2=80=9D.
> >>> >
> >>> > Best,
> >>> >
> >>> > Carlos.
> >>> >
> >>> >> On Jun 17, 2019, at 12:58 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.= com> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Hi Oliver,
> >>> >> thank you for your thorough review, clear and de= tailed questions. My apologies for the delay to respond. Please find my ans= wers below in-line tagged GIM>>.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Regards,
> >>> >> Greg
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 12:38 PM Olivier Bonaven= ture via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> >>> >> Reviewer: Olivier Bonaventure
> >>> >> Review result: Ready with Issues
> >>> >>
> >>> >> This document has been reviewed as part of the t= ransport area review team's
> >>> >> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. The= se comments were written
> >>> >> primarily for the transport area directors, but = are copied to the document's
> >>> >> authors and WG to allow them to address any issu= es raised and also to the IETF
> >>> >> discussion list for information.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the aut= hors should consider this
> >>> >> review as part of the last-call comments they re= ceive. Please always CC
> >>> >> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I have only limited knowledge of VXLAN and do no= t know all subtleties of BFD.
> >>> >> This review is thus more from a generalist than = a specialist in this topic.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Major issues
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Section 4 requires that " Implementations S= HOULD ensure that the BFD
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packets follow the same lookup path= as VXLAN data packets within the
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sender system."
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Why is this requirement only relevant for the lo= okup path on the sender system
> >>> >> ? What does this sentence really implies ?
> >>> >> GIM>> RFC 5880 set the scope of the fault = detection of BFD protocol as
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ... the bidirectional path between = two forwarding engines, including
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 interfaces, data link(s), and to th= e extent possible the forwarding
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 engines themselves ...
> >>> >> The requirement aimed to the forwarding engine o= f a BFD system that transmits BFD control packets over VXLAN tunnel.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Is it a requirement that the BFD packets follow = the same path as the data
> >>> >> packet for a given VXLAN ? I guess so. In this c= ase, the document should
> >>> >> discuss how Equal Cost Multipath could affect th= is.
> >>> >> GIM>> I think that ECMP environment is mor= e likely to be experienced by a transit node in the underlay. If the BFD se= ssion is used to monitor the specific underlay path, then, I agree, we shou= ld explain that using the VXLAN payload information to draw path entropy ma= y cause data and BFD packets following different underlay routes. But, on t= he other hand, that is the case for OAM and fault detection in all overlay = networks in general.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Minor issues
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Section 1
> >>> >>
> >>> >> You write "The asynchronous mode of BFD, as= defined in [RFC5880],
> >>> >>=C2=A0 can be used to monitor a p2p VXLAN tunnel.= "
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Why do you use the word can ? It is a possibilit= y or a requirement ?
> >>> >> GIM>> In principle, BFD Demand mode may be= used to monitor p2p paths as well, I agree, will re-word to more assertive= :
> >>> >>=C2=A0 The asynchronous mode of BFD, as defined i= n [RFC5880],
> >>> >>=C2=A0 is used to monitor a p2p VXLAN tunnel.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> NVE has not been defined before and is not in th= e terminology.
> >>> >> GIM>> Will add to the Terminology and expa= nd as:
> >>> >> NVE=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Network Virtualiz= ation Endpoint
> >>> >>
> >>> >> This entire section is not easy to read for an o= utsider.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Section 3
> >>> >>
> >>> >> VNI has not been defined
> >>> >> GIM>> Will add to the Terminology section:=
> >>> >> VNI=C2=A0 =C2=A0 VXLAN Network Identifier (or VX= LAN Segment ID)
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Figure 1 could take less space
> >>> >> GIM>> Yes, can make it bit denser. Would t= he following be an improvement?
> >>> >>=C2=A0
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------+--------= -----+
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 Server 1=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| +----+----+=C2=A0 +-= ---+----+ |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| |VM1-1=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = |=C2=A0 |VM1-2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| |VNI 100=C2=A0 |=C2= =A0 |VNI 200=C2=A0 | |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| +---------+=C2=A0 +-= --------+ |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Hypervisor VTEP (IP1= )=C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+---------------------= -----+
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-----= --------+
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Layer 3=C2=A0 =C2=A0|
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+---|=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ne= twork=C2=A0 =C2=A0|
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-----= --------+
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0|
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0+-----------+
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +------------+-------------+
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hypervisor VTEP (IP2) |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | +----+----+=C2=A0 +----+----+ |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | |VM2-1=C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 |VM2-2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = | |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | |VNI 100=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 |VNI 200=C2=A0 | |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 |=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | +---------+=C2=A0 +---------+ |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Server 2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--------------------------+
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Section 4
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I do not see the benefits of having one paragrap= h in Section 4 followed by only
> >>> >> Section 4.1
> >>> >> GIM>> Will merge Section 4.1 into 4 with m= inor required re-wording:
> >>> >> 4.=C2=A0 BFD Packet Transmission over VXLAN Tunn= el
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFD packet MUST be encapsulated and= sent to a remote VTEP as
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 explained in this section.=C2=A0 Im= plementations SHOULD ensure that the
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFD packets follow the same lookup = path as VXLAN data packets within
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the sender system.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFD packets are encapsulated in VXL= AN as described below.=C2=A0 The VXLAN
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet format is defined in Section= 5 of [RFC7348].=C2=A0 The Outer IP/UDP
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and VXLAN headers MUST be encoded b= y the sender as defined in
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC7348].
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Section 4.1
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The document does not specify when a dedicated M= AC address or the MAC address
> >>> >> of the destination VTEP must be used. This could= affect the interoperability of
> >>> >> implementations. Should all implementations supp= ort both the dedicated MAC
> >>> >> address and the destination MAC address ?
> >>> >> GIM>> After further discussion, authors de= cided to remove the request for the dedicated MAC address allocation. Only = the MAC address of the remote VTEP must be used as the destination MAC addr= ess in the inner Ethernet frame. Please check the attached diff between the= -07 and the working versions or the working version of the draft.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> It is unclear from this section whether IPv4 ins= ide IPv6 and the opposite
> >>> >> should be supported or not.
> >>> >> GIM>> Any combination of outer IPvX and in= ner IPvX is possible.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Section 5.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> If the received packet does not match the dedica= ted MAC address nor the MAC
> >>> >> address of the VTEP, should the packet be silent= ly discarded or treated
> >>> >> differently ?
> >>> >> GIM>> As I've mentioned earlier, autho= rs have decided to remove the use of the dedicated MAC address for BFD over= VXLAN.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Section 5.1
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Is this a modification to section 6.3 of RFC5880= ? This is not clear
> >>> >> GIM>> I think that this section is not mod= ification but the definition of the application-specific procedure that is = outside the scope of RFC 5880:
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The method of demultiplexing the in= itial packets (in which Your
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Discriminator is zero) is applicati= on dependent, and is thus outside
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the scope of this specification. > >>> >>
> >>> >> Section 9
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The sentence " Throttling MAY be relaxed fo= r BFD packets
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 based on port number." is uncl= ear.
> >>> >> GIM>> Yes, thank you for pointing to this.= The updated text, in the whole paragraph, is as follows:
> >>> >> NEW TEXT:
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document requires setting the i= nner IP TTL to 1, which could be
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 used as a DDoS attack vector.=C2=A0= Thus the implementation MUST have
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 throttling in place to control the = rate of BFD control packets sent
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the control plane.=C2=A0 On the = other hand, over aggressive throttling
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of BFD control packets may become t= he cause of the inability to form
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and maintain BFD session at scale.= =C2=A0 Hence, throttling of BFD control
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packets SHOULD be adjusted to permi= t BFD to work according to its
> >>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 procedures.
> >>> >> <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-08.txt><Diff_ dra= ft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07.txt - draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-08.txt.html>
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>
> >
>

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--_000_19BA9CC8760341D082FC4E4564D3DF28ciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Jul 18 09:11:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23041207FC for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:11:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f5REDSsRB1oO for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F36771207BD for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B8BCE1E2F2; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 12:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 12:12:41 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: rtg-bfd@ietf.org Subject: Draft agenda posted for IETF 105 Message-ID: <20190718161241.GE21401@pfrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:11:02 -0000 Working Group, Here's the draft agenda for IETF 105. https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/agenda-105-bfd Please note we are reserving the end of the session for discussion about BFD v2. We are using Greg's presentation as a seed item for that discussion. Our request is if you are aware of individuals interested in general OAM techologies in other IETF contexts that you please invite them to this BFD session. -- Jeff & Reshad From nobody Mon Jul 22 06:44:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F00D120192 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:44:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=Dj/PMAxP; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=JKtfJiv0 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZeQEjWmd_d0J for ; 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Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tjl5HBytXz7H for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18922120059 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 01AE81E2F2; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:28:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:28:13 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" Subject: Re: Draft agenda posted for IETF 105 Message-ID: <20190722142813.GB28302@pfrc.org> References: <20190718161241.GE21401@pfrc.org> <2BCA3525-0E7B-419A-A2A8-985F545F6EA8@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2BCA3525-0E7B-419A-A2A8-985F545F6EA8@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:26:30 -0000 [largely speaking as an individual contributor] Carlos, On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 01:44:46PM +0000, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote: > > On Jul 18, 2019, at 12:12 PM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > > Please note we are reserving the end of the session for discussion about BFD > > v2. We are using Greg's presentation as a seed item for that discussion. > > To further seed and guide this discussion, it would be useful and productive to start with the problems intended to be solved with BFD v2. To offer an observation I'll be using during the BFD session: BFD is a "popular" protocol. Much like BGP or DNS, it has certain properties that make it attractive to have other things added to it. In BFD's case, it's the fact that we have a continuous stream of communication between two systems. At some point, if this is the primary useful property, one might envision that the BFD protocol and general machinery are forked to provide such a channel for other mechanisms. Especially for things that don't need to be in constant contact every 3.3ms. :-) > Is performance metrics like packet loss and packet delay the main goal? Or a new on-demand auth? I'll note that IPPM already has solution space stuff here. This is much why we're inviting them specifically. The auth space is also covered to a large extent in open drafts that we'll hopefully decide how to conclude this upcoming session. > If the former, why not shim IOAM to BFD (and to actual data packets as well) instead of refactoring the protocol? I look forward to hearing from those who are working on such things in IPPM. > Further, even better, S-BFD seems much (much!) more friendly to this set of uses than BFD. Why not start with S-BFD which has implementation? I'm sympathetic with this view, but will note that s-bfd is using the same packet format. So, we're still having a discussion about bfd PDUs. > Maybe this starts the discussion early, but starting with this proposed solution confused me. To a large extent, this presentation order is being done not because the chairs believe this is the way to go, but mostly because we're being pressurd into even having this discussion because we keep getting proposals to put more stuff into BFD. > We could add TLVs. But starting with the problem statement will enable us to think holistically on universe of potential solutions. > > > A second topic after the Intention and Goals, would be Charter. How does design Perf Mgmt intersect with other WGs? As I noted in the invite mail for this topic, such things are currently out of charter. -- Jeff From nobody Mon Jul 22 07:41:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8BDA1202B9 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:41:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=Bydp4n/O; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=fdlxHBRI Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B3VjuSCFvdfc for ; 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Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:41:41 +0000 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Jeff Haas CC: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" Subject: Re: Draft agenda posted for IETF 105 Thread-Topic: Draft agenda posted for IETF 105 Thread-Index: AQHVPYN26wwRhvG50UKWzUp1yAFk/abWrDgAgAAMJICAAAPAgA== Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:41:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20190718161241.GE21401@pfrc.org> <2BCA3525-0E7B-419A-A2A8-985F545F6EA8@cisco.com> <20190722142813.GB28302@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: <20190722142813.GB28302@pfrc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=cpignata@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.117.77] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 5dcbdbb6-c7b1-49f3-941e-08d70eb2b5a9 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600148)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(2017052603328)(7193020); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <2FF4C6E3C5D2304D9748CDD6C7EC91C7@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5dcbdbb6-c7b1-49f3-941e-08d70eb2b5a9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Jul 2019 14:41:40.9572 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: cpignata@cisco.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR11MB3027 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.23, xch-aln-013.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:41:53 -0000 Jeff, > On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: >=20 > [largely speaking as an individual contributor] >=20 > Carlos, >=20 > On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 01:44:46PM +0000, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wro= te: >>> On Jul 18, 2019, at 12:12 PM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: >>> Please note we are reserving the end of the session for discussion abou= t BFD >>> v2. We are using Greg's presentation as a seed item for that discussio= n. >>=20 >> To further seed and guide this discussion, it would be useful and produc= tive to start with the problems intended to be solved with BFD v2. >=20 > To offer an observation I'll be using during the BFD session: > BFD is a "popular" protocol. Much like BGP or DNS, it has certain > properties that make it attractive to have other things added to it. >=20 > In BFD's case, it's the fact that we have a continuous stream of > communication between two systems. >=20 > At some point, if this is the primary useful property, one might envision > that the BFD protocol and general machinery are forked to provide such a > channel for other mechanisms. Especially for things that don't need to b= e > in constant contact every 3.3ms. :-) I believe that an identification of unique potentially useful properties of= the protocol is a potentially fruitful approach. Things like: 1. continuous stream of communication between two systems (as you wrote abo= ve) 2. Underlying data protocol independence. 3. Boostrapping by other protocols or events. 4. State maintenance in the endpoints (and here S-BFD with a difference) >=20 >> Is performance metrics like packet loss and packet delay the main goal? = Or a new on-demand auth? >=20 > I'll note that IPPM already has solution space stuff here. This is much = why > we're inviting them specifically. >=20 > The auth space is also covered to a large extent in open drafts that we'l= l > hopefully decide how to conclude this upcoming session. I agree on both counts. >=20 >> If the former, why not shim IOAM to BFD (and to actual data packets as w= ell) instead of refactoring the protocol? >=20 > I look forward to hearing from those who are working on such things in IP= PM. >=20 >> Further, even better, S-BFD seems much (much!) more friendly to this set= of uses than BFD. Why not start with S-BFD which has implementation? >=20 > I'm sympathetic with this view, but will note that s-bfd is using the sam= e > packet format. So, we're still having a discussion about bfd PDUs. Agreed also. And (as per above) decomposing in protocol characteristics use= ful in a different context can provide a good understanding of matching. And even what augmentations of BFD are useful and whether other protocols c= an piggy-back. For example, appending IOAM can in some cases (but not in ot= hers) re-use the BFD interesting characteristics. >=20 >> Maybe this starts the discussion early, but starting with this proposed = solution confused me. >=20 > To a large extent, this presentation order is being done not because the > chairs believe this is the way to go, but mostly because we're being > pressurd into even having this discussion because we keep getting proposa= ls > to put more stuff into BFD. Thanks for the clarification. >=20 >> We could add TLVs. But starting with the problem statement will enable u= s to think holistically on universe of potential solutions. >>=20 >>=20 >> A second topic after the Intention and Goals, would be Charter. How does= design Perf Mgmt intersect with other WGs? >=20 > As I noted in the invite mail for this topic, such things are currently o= ut > of charter. =20 Ack. Thanks! 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by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z19sm23587256qtu.43.2019.07.25.13.33.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Jul 2019 13:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:33:39 -0400 From: Jeff Tantsura To: Susan Hares , Albert Fu , "=?utf-8?Q?idr=40ietf.org?=" , "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" Cc: "=?utf-8?Q?lsr=40ietf.org?=" , "=?utf-8?Q?rtg-bfd=40ietf.org?=" Message-ID: <45346fa5-13c2-4565-9795-a2e89d33fc6e@Spark> In-Reply-To: References: <5D3A0EB4029103460087056A_0_2148724@msclnypmsgsv03> <01c901d54326$80a67af0$81f370d0$@ndzh.com> Subject: Re: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode X-Readdle-Message-ID: 45346fa5-13c2-4565-9795-a2e89d33fc6e@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5d3a1229_5451cf49_12dc6" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 20:33:51 -0000 --5d3a1229_5451cf49_12dc6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sue, I support progress of this draft, it addresses real problem. On Redback side of things we have implemented this around 2013, logic (pr= oprietary) kept in B=46D=C2=A0indeed, so +1 Ketan. I=E2=80=99d document i= t as an informal feature, that is recommended (same for YANG) Cheers, Jeff On Jul 25, 2019, 4:27 PM -0400, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) , wrote: > Hi Albert, > > Thanks for your feedback from an operator perspective =E2=80=93 it is v= aluable. This =E2=80=9CB=46D hold up=E2=80=9D behaviour that you desire i= s best handled by B=46D since I would expect that similar behaviour would= be desired across routing protocols (OSP=46, ISIS, BGP) and perhaps othe= r clients. > > IMHO this is not something that we should be tackling within the scope = of this BGP draft. Would you agree=3F > > That said, this seems like a local implementation aspect to me. We shou= ld however discuss within the B=46D WG if there is value in documenting t= his. > > Thanks, > Ketan > > =46rom: Idr On Behalf Of Susan Hares > Sent: 25 July 2019 16:21 > To: 'Albert =46u' ; idr=40ietf.org > Subject: Re: =5BIdr=5D draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode > > Albert: > > To clarify, do you support WG adoption with the draft as is. > > As a WG chair, I have to trust that all =C2=A0drafts are improved durin= g the WG process.=C2=A0 Can this small change be made after adoption or s= hould it be made before the draft is considered for adoption. > > Sue Hares > > =46rom: Idr =5Bmailto:idr-bounces=40ietf.org=5D On Behalf Of Albert =46= u (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK) > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 4:19 PM > To: idr=40ietf.org > Subject: =5BIdr=5D draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode > > I am in support of this draft, and would like to request a small change= to make this draft more operationally useful. > > We have encountered several traffic blackhole problems in our productio= n network without this feature. As such, we have deployed BGP with strict= B=46D mode on a proprietary vendor implementation for a while. > > Since a lot of MetroE circuit failures occur with interfaces still up, = ie. break in the middle issues, the traditional knobs like interface hold= -time/debounce timer can not be used to dampen interface flaps. > > We have observed that interface issues tend to occur in bursts and woul= d like to request that an option be added in =22Section 4 Operation:=22 t= o delay BGP from coming up until B=46D is proven stable continuously for = a period of time (i.e. B=46D hold up feature). > > This is a feature that we are currently using in the proprietary vendor= deployment. In our case, since we have multiple redundant paths, we have= some links where we delay BGP from coming up until B=46D has been stable= continuously for 60 seconds. > > Thanks > Albert =46u > Bloomberg > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > Lsr mailing list > Lsr=40ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --5d3a1229_5451cf49_12dc6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Sue,

I support progress of this draft, it addresses real= problem.&=23160;
On Redback side of things we have implemented this = around 2013, logic (proprietary) kept in B=46D&=23160;indeed, so +1 Ketan. I=E2=80=99d do= cument it as an informal feature, that is recommended (same for YANG) &=23= 160;

Cheers,
Jeff
On Jul 25, 2019, 4:27 PM -0400, Ket= an Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=40cisco.com>, wrote:

Hi Albert,

&=23160;

Thanks for your feedback from= an operator perspective =E2=80=93 it is valuable. This =E2=80=9CB=46D ho= ld up=E2=80=9D behaviour that you desire is best handled by B=46D since I= would expect that similar behaviour would be desired across routing prot= ocols (OSP=46, ISIS, BGP) and perhaps other clients.

&=23160;

IMHO this is not something th= at we should be tackling within the scope of this BGP draft. Would you ag= ree=3F

&=23160;

That said, this seems like a = local implementation aspect to me. We should however discuss within the B= =46D WG if there is value in documenting this.

&=23160;

Thanks,

Ketan

&=23160;

=46rom: Idr <idr-bounces=40ietf.org> On Behalf Of Susan Hares
= Sent: 25 July 2019 16:21
To: 'Albert =46u' <afu14=40bloomberg.net>; idr=40ietf.org Subject: Re: =5BIdr=5D draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode

&=23160;

Albert:

&=23160;

To clarify, do you support WG adoption with the draf= t as is.&=23160;

&=23160;

As a WG chair, I have to trust that all &=23160;draf= ts are improved during the WG process.&=23160; Can this small change be m= ade after adoption or should it be made before the draft is considered fo= r adoption.

&=23160;

Sue Hares

&=23160;

=46rom: I= dr =5Bmailto:idr-bounces=40= ietf.org=5D On Behalf Of Albert =46u (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK)
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 4:19 PM
To: idr=40ietf.org
= Subject: =5BIdr=5D draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode

&=23160;

I am in sup= port of this draft, and would like to request a small change to make this= draft more operationally useful.

We have encountered several traffic blackhole problems in our production = network without this feature. As such, we have deployed BGP with strict B= =46D mode on a proprietary vendor implementation for a while.
&=23160;
Since a lot of MetroE circuit failures occur with interfaces still up, ie= . break in the middle issues, the traditional knobs like interface hold-t= ime/debounce timer can not be used to dampen interface flaps.&=23160;


We have observed that interface issues tend to occur in bursts and would = like to request that an option be added in =22Section 4 Operation:=22 to = delay BGP from coming up until B=46D is proven stable continuously for a = period of time (i.e. B=46D hold up feature).&=23160;


This is a feature that we are currently using in the proprietary vendor d= eployment. In our case, since we have multiple redundant paths, we have s= ome links where we delay BGP from coming up until B=46D has been stable c= ontinuously for 60 seconds.

Thanks
Albert =46u
Bloomberg

&=23160;

=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
Lsr mailing list
Lsr=40ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
--5d3a1229_5451cf49_12dc6-- From nobody Thu Jul 25 14:13:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD5A1201F1; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:13:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RlnAIqh5j--Y; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe32.google.com (mail-vs1-xe32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1D0E1201DB; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe32.google.com with SMTP id m23so34699198vso.1; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:13:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XOMDS7MH03legfjAn3UrK2CZXjfWfSJ7fghg9ao3d/Q=; b=QWRVnq84T6pQ/lJ0Mq6gGwM8rd73sQZrTiD8B9cS4IesCLT2iajKM6Mv/TN3bToKTr S0D5xq9M4zQNN1Kg8+ax5jUKP2cBLPBq8XYi5L3VL1nv65TaQgqu6h68mAsEkGEjAMeP z+2yTTfhreFLGbbA/75gEFY+imk9Bl6xSySvr/hAhWd0t25jGnE1XodlBmwZeczDtMkG N+8AP4lHsY004FemtX34+KfiHHba21EXUc6v/LdhGVDBxIeJlgdEUM82Xo8KwxoRcxty 1c59MKC4moU7tkbxMkDLSIWBwzUOgo8XCOqyKmJd+G+Y/2U2X/SYZF5jKTuXthypwmEX iucw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XOMDS7MH03legfjAn3UrK2CZXjfWfSJ7fghg9ao3d/Q=; b=GL5Z3iZ4vK5rJ3to+KMLmjCypBX0GH0GqBvIucsH5wngxk0ldnt+nDBgruT/cZlT/E /Def+Njjwv2SJZnhIHG/B+fyTajsSvijRy1BqxD9lfQPrDckniXb3jai5vWRIDogkv15 5aVFzYsCJ1KaO2Sy84uyk6/3+WNM25xAaaSErABvVnF2vh/Nu+/IzTp264VmNZJXFHle wRc6BQbvP3LVIhTJobZNisI52RGs6Bj/IsDhdlinQo6AZ0EhqUxqkgWfD4IYVYPWA8uK 91uGy0dcLeNCb42+0asL9iTHJ44AQO8lJpb54aWycikugTSTPhAEJ+iMzumskHGrWhi1 9vQg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVK/gHfnZ2HCJjNT6Zt8wvAkNCdX6dFel1x9tfmRqC4EY4R6a9g 9NM7WGg0lXcvD6Kz+9AI03zhnE9il+k8u7cksg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwKCJM09W4c7kHaMqsC3J+eqFVSpodwYRobOahB2eGVKrsSVDDfQkNuYcWwXiOOTzr15lxkgwXCTk0b+Ip4S8A= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f281:: with SMTP id m1mr10877224vsk.184.1564089218593; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:13:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5D3A0EB4029103460087056A_0_2148724@msclnypmsgsv03> <01c901d54326$80a67af0$81f370d0$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: From: Albert F Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 17:13:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" Cc: Susan Hares , Albert Bloomberg , "idr@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004578cc058e87e62c" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 21:13:42 -0000 --0000000000004578cc058e87e62c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ketan, I think it will be good to mention this in the doc, as I expect most large networks concerned with network stability impacted by link flaps to enable the BFD hold-up feature. For example, if one side has BFD hold-up enabled (> BGP hold time) and the other side does not, the BGP keepalive message from one side may be delayed even if BFD is up. This may have implication on the BGP session transitiining to established phase. Thanks Albert On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:27 PM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote: > Hi Albert, > > > > Thanks for your feedback from an operator perspective =E2=80=93 it is val= uable. > This =E2=80=9CBFD hold up=E2=80=9D behaviour that you desire is best hand= led by BFD since I > would expect that similar behaviour would be desired across routing > protocols (OSPF, ISIS, BGP) and perhaps other clients. > > > > IMHO this is not something that we should be tackling within the scope of > this BGP draft. Would you agree? > > > > That said, this seems like a local implementation aspect to me. We should > however discuss within the BFD WG if there is value in documenting this. > > > > Thanks, > > Ketan > > > > *From:* Idr *On Behalf Of *Susan Hares > *Sent:* 25 July 2019 16:21 > *To:* 'Albert Fu' ; idr@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode > > > > Albert: > > > > To clarify, do you support WG adoption with the draft as is. > > > > As a WG chair, I have to trust that all drafts are improved during the W= G > process. Can this small change be made after adoption or should it be ma= de > before the draft is considered for adoption. > > > > Sue Hares > > > > *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org ] *On > Behalf Of *Albert Fu (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK) > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2019 4:19 PM > *To:* idr@ietf.org > *Subject:* [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode > > > > I am in support of this draft, and would like to request a small change t= o > make this draft more operationally useful. > > We have encountered several traffic blackhole problems in our production > network without this feature. As such, we have deployed BGP with strict B= FD > mode on a proprietary vendor implementation for a while. > > Since a lot of MetroE circuit failures occur with interfaces still up, ie= . > break in the middle issues, the traditional knobs like interface > hold-time/debounce timer can not be used to dampen interface flaps. > > > We have observed that interface issues tend to occur in bursts and would > like to request that an option be added in "Section 4 Operation:" to dela= y > BGP from coming up until BFD is proven stable continuously for a period o= f > time (i.e. BFD hold up feature). > > > This is a feature that we are currently using in the proprietary vendor > deployment. In our case, since we have multiple redundant paths, we have > some links where we delay BGP from coming up until BFD has been stable > continuously for 60 seconds. > > Thanks > Albert Fu > Bloomberg > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --0000000000004578cc058e87e62c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ketan,

I = think it will be good to mention this in the doc, as I expect most large ne= tworks concerned with network stability impacted by link flaps to enable th= e BFD hold-up feature.

F= or example, if one side has BFD hold-up enabled (> BGP hold time) and th= e other side does not, the BGP keepalive message from one side may be delay= ed even if BFD is up. This may have implication on the BGP session transiti= ining to established phase.

Thanks
Albert

<= div dir=3D"auto">

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:27 PM Ketan Talaulikar (= ketant) <ketant@cisco.com> wr= ote:

Hi Albert,

=C2=A0

Thanks for your feedback from an operator perspective =E2=80=93 it i= s valuable. This =E2=80=9CBFD hold up=E2=80=9D behaviour that you desire is= best handled by BFD since I would expect that similar behaviour would be desired across routing protocols (OSPF, ISIS, B= GP) and perhaps other clients.

=C2=A0

IMHO this is not something that we should be tackling within the sco= pe of this BGP draft. Would you agree?

=C2=A0

That said, this seems like a local implementation aspect to me. We s= hould however discuss within the BFD WG if there is value in documenting th= is.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Ketan

=C2=A0

From: = Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: 25 July 2019 16:21
To: 'Albert Fu' <afu14@bloomberg.net>; idr@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode

=C2=A0

Albert:

=C2=A0

To clarify, do you sup= port WG adoption with the draft as is.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

As a WG chair, I have = to trust that all =C2=A0drafts are improved during the WG process.=C2=A0 Ca= n this small change be made after adoption or should it be made before the draft is considered for adoption.

=C2=A0

Sue Hares

=C2=A0

From: Id= r [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Albert Fu (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK)
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 4:19 PM
To: idr@ietf.org
Subject: [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode

=C2=A0

I am in support of this draft, and would like to r= equest a small change to make this draft more operationally useful.

We have encountered several traffic blackhole problems in our production ne= twork without this feature. As such, we have deployed BGP with strict BFD m= ode on a proprietary vendor implementation for a while.
=C2=A0
Since a lot of MetroE circuit failures occur with interfaces still up, ie. = break in the middle issues, the traditional knobs like interface hold-time/= debounce timer can not be used to dampen interface flaps.=C2=A0


We have observed that interface issues tend to occur in bursts and would li= ke to request that an option be added in "Section 4 Operation:" t= o delay BGP from coming up until BFD is proven stable continuously for a pe= riod of time (i.e. BFD hold up feature).=C2=A0<= u>


This is a feature that we are currently using in the proprietary vendor dep= loyment. In our case, since we have multiple redundant paths, we have some = links where we delay BGP from coming up until BFD has been stable continuou= sly for 60 seconds.

Thanks
Albert Fu
Bloomberg

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ie= tf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
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b=XZHmhWFg7DweqxsVSoyAUIBZeHM7ugEgV7FPNVXnOS6t0msmQPPSnstXUXF/gRMKZaG09Adk9ivchwx2gIO5FfDMMgCHLQ1rtdkW3Br75w44UNHFE0n3RoOm9IpnZ5o6NjX5rIAJvNyl7i7Z3ZadrIFBdoEvCPmDGxnnln2dCZM= Received: from MWHPR11MB1902.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (10.175.53.139) by MWHPR11MB1549.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (10.172.54.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2094.16; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 22:22:20 +0000 Received: from MWHPR11MB1902.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::64fa:549d:e02a:a2b2]) by MWHPR11MB1902.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::64fa:549d:e02a:a2b2%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2115.005; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 22:22:20 +0000 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: Albert F , "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" CC: "idr@ietf.org" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , Albert Bloomberg , Susan Hares , "lsr@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode Thread-Topic: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode Thread-Index: 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draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Cc: Albert F , "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , "idr@ietf.org" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , Susan Hares , Albert Bloomberg , "lsr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000042259f058e8920a5" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 22:41:32 -0000 --00000000000042259f058e8920a5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Acee, I imagine that there could be multiple clients of the same BFD session with different requirements in regard to dampening behavior. For example, the delay each client desires to use may be different for each client of the BFD session. If that is a plausible use case, I think that placing dampening to a client may be a better choice. Regards, Greg On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 6:23 PM Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Hi Albert, Ketan, > > The authors will document dampening in the operational considerations. I= =E2=80=99m > also of the mind that the dampening should be done in BFD rather than the > BFD clients (e.g., BGP). > > Thanks, > Acee > > > > *From: *Lsr on behalf of Albert F < > albert.f168@gmail.com> > *Date: *Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 5:14 PM > *To: *"Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" > *Cc: *IDR List , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , > Albert Bloomberg , Susan Hares , " > lsr@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode > > > > Hi Ketan, > > > > I think it will be good to mention this in the doc, as I expect most larg= e > networks concerned with network stability impacted by link flaps to enabl= e > the BFD hold-up feature. > > > > For example, if one side has BFD hold-up enabled (> BGP hold time) and th= e > other side does not, the BGP keepalive message from one side may be delay= ed > even if BFD is up. This may have implication on the BGP session > transitiining to established phase. > > > > Thanks > > Albert > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:27 PM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) > wrote: > > Hi Albert, > > > > Thanks for your feedback from an operator perspective =E2=80=93 it is val= uable. > This =E2=80=9CBFD hold up=E2=80=9D behaviour that you desire is best hand= led by BFD since I > would expect that similar behaviour would be desired across routing > protocols (OSPF, ISIS, BGP) and perhaps other clients. > > > > IMHO this is not something that we should be tackling within the scope of > this BGP draft. Would you agree? > > > > That said, this seems like a local implementation aspect to me. We should > however discuss within the BFD WG if there is value in documenting this. > > > > Thanks, > > Ketan > > > > *From:* Idr *On Behalf Of *Susan Hares > *Sent:* 25 July 2019 16:21 > *To:* 'Albert Fu' ; idr@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode > > > > Albert: > > > > To clarify, do you support WG adoption with the draft as is. > > > > As a WG chair, I have to trust that all drafts are improved during the W= G > process. Can this small change be made after adoption or should it be ma= de > before the draft is considered for adoption. > > > > Sue Hares > > > > *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org ] *On > Behalf Of *Albert Fu (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK) > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2019 4:19 PM > *To:* idr@ietf.org > *Subject:* [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode > > > > I am in support of this draft, and would like to request a small change t= o > make this draft more operationally useful. > > We have encountered several traffic blackhole problems in our production > network without this feature. As such, we have deployed BGP with strict B= FD > mode on a proprietary vendor implementation for a while. > > Since a lot of MetroE circuit failures occur with interfaces still up, ie= . > break in the middle issues, the traditional knobs like interface > hold-time/debounce timer can not be used to dampen interface flaps. > > > We have observed that interface issues tend to occur in bursts and would > like to request that an option be added in "Section 4 Operation:" to dela= y > BGP from coming up until BFD is proven stable continuously for a period o= f > time (i.e. BFD hold up feature). > > > This is a feature that we are currently using in the proprietary vendor > deployment. In our case, since we have multiple redundant paths, we have > some links where we delay BGP from coming up until BFD has been stable > continuously for 60 seconds. > > Thanks > Albert Fu > Bloomberg > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > --00000000000042259f058e8920a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Acee,
I imagine that there could be multiple client= s of the same BFD session with different requirements in regard to dampenin= g behavior. For example, the delay each client desires to use may be differ= ent for each client of the BFD session. If that is a plausible use case, I = think that placing dampening to a client may be a better choice.
=
Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 6:23 PM= Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi Albert, Ketan,

The authors will document dampening in the operation= al considerations. I=E2=80=99m also of the mind that the dampening should b= e done in BFD rather than the BFD clients (e.g., BGP).

Thanks,
Acee

=C2=A0

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> o= n behalf of Albert F <albert.f168@gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 5:14 PM
To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
Cc: IDR List <i= dr@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Albert Bloomberg <afu14@bloomberg.net>, S= usan Hares <shares@= ndzh.com>, "l= sr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode

=C2=A0

Hi Ketan, =

=C2=A0

I think it will be good = to mention this in the doc, as I expect most large networks concerned with = network stability impacted by link flaps to enable the BFD hold-up feature.=

=C2=A0

For example, if one side= has BFD hold-up enabled (> BGP hold time) and the other side does not, = the BGP keepalive message from one side may be delayed even if BFD is up. T= his may have implication on the BGP session transitiining to established phase.

=C2=A0

Thanks

Albert

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:= 27 PM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi Albert,

=C2=A0

Thanks for your feedback from an operator perspective = =E2=80=93 it is valuable. This =E2=80=9CBFD hold up=E2=80=9D behaviour that= you desire is best handled by BFD since I would expect that similar behavi= our would be desired across routing protocols (OSPF, ISIS, BGP) and perhaps other clients.

=C2=A0

IMHO this is not something that we should be tackling = within the scope of this BGP draft. Would you agree?

=C2=A0

That said, this seems like a local implementation aspe= ct to me. We should however discuss within the BFD WG if there is value in = documenting this.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Ketan

=C2=A0

From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: 25 July 2019 16:21
To: 'Albert Fu' <afu14@bloomberg.net>; idr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode

=C2=A0

Albert:

=C2=A0<= /u>

To clarify, do you support WG adoption= with the draft as is.=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

As a WG chair, I have to trust that al= l =C2=A0drafts are improved during the WG process.=C2=A0 Can this small cha= nge be made after adoption or should it be made before the draft is conside= red for adoption.

=C2=A0<= /u>

Sue Hares<= u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@i= etf.org] On Behalf Of Albert Fu (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK)
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 4:19 PM
To: idr@ietf.org
Subject: [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode

=C2=A0

I am in suppo= rt of this draft, and would like to request a small change to make this dra= ft more operationally useful.

We have encountered several traffic blackhole problems in our production ne= twork without this feature. As such, we have deployed BGP with strict BFD m= ode on a proprietary vendor implementation for a while.
=C2=A0
Since a lot of MetroE circuit failures occur with interfaces still up, ie. = break in the middle issues, the traditional knobs like interface hold-time/= debounce timer can not be used to dampen interface flaps.=C2=A0


We have observed that interface issues tend to occur in bursts and would li= ke to request that an option be added in "Section 4 Operation:" t= o delay BGP from coming up until BFD is proven stable continuously for a pe= riod of time (i.e. BFD hold up feature).=C2=A0<= u>


This is a feature that we are currently using in the proprietary vendor dep= loyment. In our case, since we have multiple redundant paths, we have some = links where we delay BGP from coming up until BFD has been stable continuou= sly for 60 seconds.

Thanks
Albert Fu
Bloomberg

=C2=A0=

________________________= _______________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

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Subject: BFD over VXLAN: Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP To: rtg-bfd WG , "T. Sridhar" , Dinesh Dutt , Joel Halpern , bfd-chairs@ietf.org, Martin Vigoureux Cc: draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008b8cf5058ef98b3b" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:48:48 -0000 --0000000000008b8cf5058ef98b3b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, thank you for your comments, suggestions on this issue, probably the most challenging for this specification. In the course of our discussions, we've agreed to abandon the request to allocate the dedicated MAC address to be used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. Also, earlier using VNI 0 was changed from mandatory to one of the options an implementation may offer to an operator. The most recent discussion was whether VTEP's MAC address might be used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the comments from VXLAN experts equally split with one for it and one against. Hence I would like to propose a new text to resolve the issue. The idea is to let an operator select Management VNI and use that VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of BFD Control packets: NEW TEXT: An operator MUST select a VNI number to be used as Management VNI. VXLAN packet for Management VNI MUST NOT be sent to a tenant. VNI number 1 is RECOMMENDED as the default for Management VNI. With that new text, what can be the value of the destination MAC in the inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that it can be anything and ignored by the reciever VTEP. Also, if the trapping is based on VNI number, the destination IP address of the inner IP packet can from the range 127/8 for IPv4, and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. And lastly, the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here). Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions. Best regards, Greg --0000000000008b8cf5058ef98b3b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,
thank you for your comments, suggestions on = this issue, probably the most challenging for this specification. In the co= urse of our discussions, we've agreed to abandon the request to allocat= e the dedicated MAC address to be used as the destination MAC address in th= e inner Ethernet frame. Also, earlier using VNI 0 was changed from mandator= y to one of the options an implementation may offer to an operator. The mos= t recent discussion was whether VTEP's MAC address might be used as the= destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the c= omments from VXLAN experts equally split with one for it and one against. H= ence I would like to propose a new text to resolve the issue. The idea is t= o let an operator select Management VNI and use that VNI in VXLAN encapsula= tion of BFD Control packets:
NEW TEXT:
An operator MUST select a V= NI number to be used as Management VNI. VXLAN packet for Management VNI MUS= T NOT be sent to a tenant. VNI number 1 is RECOMMENDED as the default for M= anagement VNI.
With that new text, what can be the v= alue of the destination MAC in the inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that i= t can be anything and ignored by the reciever VTEP. Also, if the trapping i= s based on VNI number, the destination IP address of the inner IP packet ca= n from the range 127/8 for IPv4, and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF= :7F00:0/104. And lastly, the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here).

Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions.<= /div>

Best regards,
Greg
--0000000000008b8cf5058ef98b3b-- From nobody Wed Jul 31 09:20:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7437C1203E1; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:20:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5cvrOEAlZmf3; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A8481203E9; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id c19so47864302lfm.10; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:20:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Sy22dU+9+wT0xjz3jl1Am9nZJ8AFf0TB5rVk3JZ3NtY=; b=CTw/hbvz75ztasxvWA4FJ7hazSdIN6uKLkp7yf5j1d5/41Puk2/gXUiL9Tc5vm/JDb aXdohLpv6GSzRuzfBfBAJ6KDipqUqBEdEXv+uJrvqO++vd7QIB/CIieJjCl/4n1qQF7H XcQNmsgANjstB3Dna9zlV3rWojEFQ+wLPfVzxwnBYpKWDPwWDOWySxu7P7evF/lN1PAC tUwetAWUPTyfr7OGAz9xhyTjSm3zKK2tTmNTtk27vdp0T97sN3UgCEqGkySMwM97vjvQ 6oB9SvjOlMte+TDrX+XBjGdHhVDCJ5OzSCfQhdcpS/12AHLOdB+/LmafdGj67MG99zX8 /PLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Sy22dU+9+wT0xjz3jl1Am9nZJ8AFf0TB5rVk3JZ3NtY=; b=bu3sjczWgMDU6PjP7KoJIV8o3Da8dkofkjjCCo3pP8iXbDL/cdAcfua/TVxx6UA8fp wAKKROsZ9hId3IFCDex8U7g62SotOz5x3TJvW0330XXAXlNuSHTGwVoOSsxyFRtfZixG Ff0DE/M5S28mzDFG5KoMG3ZjrcgNBKqKKV7BCFwplA4YKRExZC/E1CXQRo3pwzs46ImY C/7faHETVfTKn0EUNYVMVPGNxOb+kMDfukx0o+jwMxDx7Vp/mhzzjgZNNmjkuxBDtGu3 y1PZR+7hrrHDfn856c8Avuuqa7fkuzzvvUOEdCW2jY0DONGgNh79Q6IIgjVrPm2izkUs P0MQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVIM4ljag/ca+sYDuuQPz0WgJgp6KzcAZc0bx1L4TQoaFKl1tKe y3PJ0TUErxE8ihyd5Fny8/+PDJhw2rxFuzzZi4A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz11vL8d8tAWWvNp6ZXV+2vtwqGuPckAAXjmN9sFq9ZOe1eTgRFwVZNGL6glwkxXQ2IfFZkhnlmZujS1nHncKY= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5609:: with SMTP id v9mr55932034lfd.27.1564590026623; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:20:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:20:15 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: BFD over VXLAN: Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP To: Dinesh Dutt Cc: rtg-bfd WG , "T. Sridhar" , Joel Halpern , bfd-chairs@ietf.org, Martin Vigoureux , draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c18f29058efc804f" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 16:20:38 -0000 --000000000000c18f29058efc804f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Dinesh, thank you for your consideration of the proposal and questions. What would you see as the scope of testing the connectivity for the specific VNI? If it is tenant-to-tenant, then VTEPs will treat these packets as regular user frames. More likely, these could be Layer 2 OAM, e.g. CCM frames. The reason to use 127/8 for IPv4, and 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 for IPv6 is to safeguard from leaking Ethernet frames with BFD Control packet to a tenant. You've suggested using a MAC address to trap the control packet at VTEP. What that address could be? We had proposed using the dedicated MAC and VTEP's MAC and both raised concerns among VXLAN experts. The idea of using Management VNI may be more acceptable based on its similarity to the practice of using Management VLAN. Regards, Greg On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:03 PM Dinesh Dutt wrote: > Hi Greg, > > As long as the inner MAC address is such that the packet is trapped to the > CPU, it should be fine for use as an inner MAC is it not? Stating that is > better than trying to force a management VNI. What if someone wants to test > connectivity on a specific VNI? I would not pick a loopback IP address for > this since that address range is host/node local only. Is there a reason > you're not using the VTEP IP as the inner IP address ? > > Dinesh > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM Greg Mirsky wrote: > >> Dear All, >> thank you for your comments, suggestions on this issue, probably the most >> challenging for this specification. In the course of our discussions, we've >> agreed to abandon the request to allocate the dedicated MAC address to be >> used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. Also, >> earlier using VNI 0 was changed from mandatory to one of the options an >> implementation may offer to an operator. The most recent discussion was >> whether VTEP's MAC address might be used as the destination MAC address in >> the inner Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the comments from VXLAN experts >> equally split with one for it and one against. Hence I would like to >> propose a new text to resolve the issue. The idea is to let an operator >> select Management VNI and use that VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of BFD >> Control packets: >> NEW TEXT: >> >> An operator MUST select a VNI number to be used as Management VNI. VXLAN >> packet for Management VNI MUST NOT be sent to a tenant. VNI number 1 is >> RECOMMENDED as the default for Management VNI. >> >> With that new text, what can be the value of the destination MAC in the >> inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that it can be anything and ignored by >> the reciever VTEP. Also, if the trapping is based on VNI number, the >> destination IP address of the inner IP packet can from the range 127/8 for >> IPv4, and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. And lastly, >> the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here). >> >> Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions. >> >> Best regards, >> Greg >> > --000000000000c18f29058efc804f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dinesh,
thank you for your consideration of the pro= posal and questions. What would you see as the scope of testing the connect= ivity for the specific VNI? If it is tenant-to-tenant, then VTEPs will trea= t these packets as regular user frames. More likely, these could be Layer 2= OAM, e.g. CCM frames. The reason to use 127/8 for IPv4, and 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF= :7F00:0/104 for IPv6 is to safeguard from leaking Ethernet frames with BFD = Control packet to a tenant.
You've suggested using a MAC addr= ess to trap the control packet at VTEP. What that address could be? We had = proposed using the dedicated MAC and VTEP's MAC and both raised concern= s among VXLAN experts. The idea of using Management VNI may be more accepta= ble based on its similarity to the practice of using Management VLAN.
=

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12= :03 PM Dinesh Dutt <didutt@gmail.com= > wrote:
=
Hi Greg,

As long as the inne= r MAC address is such that the packet is trapped to the CPU, it should be f= ine for use as an inner MAC is it not? Stating that is better than trying t= o force a management VNI. What if someone wants to test connectivity on a s= pecific VNI? I would not pick a loopback IP address for this since that add= ress range is host/node local only. Is there a reason you're not using = the VTEP IP as the inner IP address ?

Dinesh

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
D= ear All,
thank you for your comments, suggestions on this issue, probab= ly the most challenging for this specification. In the course of our discus= sions, we've agreed to abandon the request to allocate the dedicated MA= C address to be used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet f= rame. Also, earlier using VNI 0 was changed from mandatory to one of the op= tions an implementation may offer to an operator. The most recent discussio= n was whether VTEP's MAC address might be used as the destination MAC a= ddress in the inner Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the comments from VXLAN= experts equally split with one for it and one against. Hence I would like = to propose a new text to resolve the issue. The idea is to let an operator = select Management VNI and use that VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of BFD Contro= l packets:
NEW TEXT:
An operator MUST select a VNI nu= mber to be used as Management VNI. VXLAN packet for Management VNI MUST NOT= be sent to a tenant. VNI number 1 is RECOMMENDED as the default for Manage= ment VNI.
With that new text, what can be the value = of the destination MAC in the inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that it can= be anything and ignored by the reciever VTEP. Also, if the trapping is bas= ed on VNI number, the destination IP address of the inner IP packet can fro= m the range 127/8 for IPv4, and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00= :0/104. And lastly, the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here).

=
Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions.
=

Best regards,
Greg
--000000000000c18f29058efc804f-- From nobody Wed Jul 31 10:38:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34715120018; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:03:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SHvYZ3bDszCc; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x435.google.com (mail-wr1-x435.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::435]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E916E1202B5; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x435.google.com with SMTP id c2so67077094wrm.8; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:03:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lm4L3A7OlPYMFgGhUe4DRvQYzeXl4XN3ID0apwPQrcc=; b=GGbSr+Zp0Xku6SByKHiP+VcKPL+AOLsHAFQ3nmQv0BTWMS8KammDiidho3MZAF+q10 jcMZ5ARrB1V2eWIGWiLNyCn0NNWRAm4Y46b7Am7OpULIjySv4OFhjTzoB+xpnTsEha3l FCFk+eX0JOhrW9HKYep6biJf7g21/dcQz6mbQp+1s/IaC/M54N7sTfdxOES+nYterYGB pzJhto9nYNdbDb48E9b/hHuTZXb6WoNsI+Zim1sbu7CLBuUeA7GZbaTilE6GI77lIQee HF91FNgExkfJEQ3kdCs8Nru1Eu927zXRgwiSy4pgpVqGGWh47ZxckH7/H70+nqeGiUtW 0QuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lm4L3A7OlPYMFgGhUe4DRvQYzeXl4XN3ID0apwPQrcc=; b=bFbVVZh0DgeBIiJ0/TcPvtqiqj91+FVufPApdH4LR5kjeACAlXAu2jOdYZS/7iuYiB wt1N7NdGXnTq73VL3uW61SKvP+Y+V6KEFs7lupdLVwRv+ypSdfumr8kFibLu2PvISFh6 c4LO7Ber1cccVnrzWksiqaQCPcF7YFvoe7GcbqlCn2mxX5659QEV9LcKZK5UsxvKEwWN xv0N3XMIjB6rnjrCGEjcJH6wmZbzj5zc+W/72+e6llU6iNMBwn16mzIf+gUMuPrK/BBj QCblrRj5RyzgxZQ4rUMJAxsAhbGGhRBhs1E3G4CJ9ZJd27bRLsUbwpLAfBvH32WxAmpt KslQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWmQWw5MA3+edpEDFDBlqu4YcRGW6mPkFXUyU6ZcWI+T4u+hefU rhuRfMjwCxJz41vGozGsg3ix2VJMOxatcBIFzes= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzmKCS0eAoMMG0L5FgDRVj0qhfB/lnLE234Yw7WuPJiRxtwuuIGSdgnS/0quqZqFvsut61GibMyvLDP5iFqMt0= X-Received: by 2002:adf:cd04:: with SMTP id w4mr86484709wrm.230.1564589026660; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:03:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dinesh Dutt Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:03:34 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: BFD over VXLAN: Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP To: Greg Mirsky Cc: rtg-bfd WG , "T. Sridhar" , Joel Halpern , bfd-chairs@ietf.org, Martin Vigoureux , draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002756e2058efc455a" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:38:52 -0700 X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 16:03:51 -0000 --0000000000002756e2058efc455a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Greg, As long as the inner MAC address is such that the packet is trapped to the CPU, it should be fine for use as an inner MAC is it not? Stating that is better than trying to force a management VNI. What if someone wants to test connectivity on a specific VNI? I would not pick a loopback IP address for this since that address range is host/node local only. Is there a reason you're not using the VTEP IP as the inner IP address ? Dinesh On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Dear All, > thank you for your comments, suggestions on this issue, probably the most > challenging for this specification. In the course of our discussions, we've > agreed to abandon the request to allocate the dedicated MAC address to be > used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. Also, > earlier using VNI 0 was changed from mandatory to one of the options an > implementation may offer to an operator. The most recent discussion was > whether VTEP's MAC address might be used as the destination MAC address in > the inner Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the comments from VXLAN experts > equally split with one for it and one against. Hence I would like to > propose a new text to resolve the issue. The idea is to let an operator > select Management VNI and use that VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of BFD > Control packets: > NEW TEXT: > > An operator MUST select a VNI number to be used as Management VNI. VXLAN > packet for Management VNI MUST NOT be sent to a tenant. VNI number 1 is > RECOMMENDED as the default for Management VNI. > > With that new text, what can be the value of the destination MAC in the > inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that it can be anything and ignored by > the reciever VTEP. Also, if the trapping is based on VNI number, the > destination IP address of the inner IP packet can from the range 127/8 for > IPv4, and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. And lastly, > the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here). > > Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions. > > Best regards, > Greg > --0000000000002756e2058efc455a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Greg,

As long as the inne= r MAC address is such that the packet is trapped to the CPU, it should be f= ine for use as an inner MAC is it not? Stating that is better than trying t= o force a management VNI. What if someone wants to test connectivity on a s= pecific VNI? I would not pick a loopback IP address for this since that add= ress range is host/node local only. Is there a reason you're not using = the VTEP IP as the inner IP address ?

Dinesh

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear All,
thank= you for your comments, suggestions on this issue, probably the most challe= nging for this specification. In the course of our discussions, we've a= greed to abandon the request to allocate the dedicated MAC address to be us= ed as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. Also, earlie= r using VNI 0 was changed from mandatory to one of the options an implement= ation may offer to an operator. The most recent discussion was whether VTEP= 's MAC address might be used as the destination MAC address in the inne= r Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the comments from VXLAN experts equally s= plit with one for it and one against. Hence I would like to propose a new t= ext to resolve the issue. The idea is to let an operator select Management = VNI and use that VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of BFD Control packets:
NEW TEXT:
An operator MUST select a VNI number to be used as= Management VNI. VXLAN packet for Management VNI MUST NOT be sent to a tena= nt. VNI number 1 is RECOMMENDED as the default for Management VNI.
With that new text, what can be the value of the destination= MAC in the inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that it can be anything and i= gnored by the reciever VTEP. Also, if the trapping is based on VNI number, = the destination IP address of the inner IP packet can from the range 127/8 = for IPv4, and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. And lastly= , the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here).

Much ap= preciate your comments, questions, and suggestions.

Best regards,
Greg
--0000000000002756e2058efc455a-- From nobody Wed Jul 31 10:44:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC251205DC; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:44:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZtAr4KoPvWhK; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com (mail-wr1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DCFF1201ED; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id n9so70727860wru.0; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:44:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cPdRfI6xuxx/ctmheEnBOKwUO5eli21wPX+MRGVQYlY=; b=umGkaob9FFOyz9hFUb6WV20tRpBa6X43cmt7yiuPJwITvoO0uKowUOFX3eIfL1AjBa o1cnBQLs2YCrIF+rXsDoRvIqqr+rKw4+TcKfTiR4WZMW6Wmlf6+g6h9CMC9shwDC4mGm OoNfIizmJRwD9CplTQYwT+swDSvK/mC5li03bk1Rs6gVxpc+yD1XS5KRFEzqt52Cu9Qn 4DboXiQj9xKPu8UlOdWHWCVPkufeviS7Uq5nKwnL0ZecYMB/f0uA9B71+hEgkKe2xYGp mzMcJj3wDE+gzyOgWXCY/yxXz5+hjjcHnsZ71zgvTVVoq93x7NS3SW7aw5fbmJaxd9bx DCqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cPdRfI6xuxx/ctmheEnBOKwUO5eli21wPX+MRGVQYlY=; b=KAfMwvDvPsX2XAk0obItyyAbhqL6kxvyNlaj4Db/StgvCpn4VqljEHuffLjddm8zEi yFa4av5R45a9ZyuyaMP+m0t//H9yZpPyHW9dN+yg7MlMccSpBHfb/c/8URJSjU7RGh1w KZsW58fG0EoO97fYM90Tf4e86u2DPsyWTD08/O4hnUTwAb1CMu3CQCBKInVyuVvVDund fi1e+mwOZmylxVLW3mk0oWTGoLBPoeNQTrhqgyWYLtkBv8Cov5rjWoNX6btKAmBfXvf1 E8VfQt+Ca+dRfH1ffB7RFy97SMFvKiHMpytSSmhirqTuyUK1O33fme5Yomak9HYdxpGQ MHYw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXEsOX4S+p2uphxCr6MUp0c3alT7UGV7o+qhyzYGksPg+B3y6NP Ss4G7s6UU96sQE6Ihq+535JupXCq5ak6oHiO824= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwEg7ISVvy7QFgci9lwgCkxvxi9Mc7aXpJ1jL+QKR0T7p/4N3ezS8nzfv5m2kUH+uZLTX6TMHpaOyooyNEaHtQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:145:: with SMTP id r5mr55739000wrx.208.1564595063798; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:44:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Santosh P K Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:44:13 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: BFD over VXLAN: Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Dinesh Dutt , rtg-bfd WG , "T. Sridhar" , Joel Halpern , bfd-chairs@ietf.org, Martin Vigoureux , draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fec26b058efdac9e" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 17:44:28 -0000 --000000000000fec26b058efdac9e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I have checked with implementation in data path. When we receive a packet with valid VNI then lookup for MAC will happen and it is VTEP own MAC then it will be trapped to control plane for processing. I think we can have following options 1. Optional managment VNI 2. Mandatory inner MAC set to VTEP mac 3. Inner IP TTL set to 1 to avoid forwarding of packet via inner IP address. Thoughts? Thansk Santosh P K On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:20 AM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Dinesh, > thank you for your consideration of the proposal and questions. What would > you see as the scope of testing the connectivity for the specific VNI? If > it is tenant-to-tenant, then VTEPs will treat these packets as regular user > frames. More likely, these could be Layer 2 OAM, e.g. CCM frames. The > reason to use 127/8 for IPv4, and 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 for IPv6 is to > safeguard from leaking Ethernet frames with BFD Control packet to a tenant. > You've suggested using a MAC address to trap the control packet at VTEP. > What that address could be? We had proposed using the dedicated MAC and > VTEP's MAC and both raised concerns among VXLAN experts. The idea of using > Management VNI may be more acceptable based on its similarity to the > practice of using Management VLAN. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:03 PM Dinesh Dutt wrote: > >> Hi Greg, >> >> As long as the inner MAC address is such that the packet is trapped to >> the CPU, it should be fine for use as an inner MAC is it not? Stating that >> is better than trying to force a management VNI. What if someone wants to >> test connectivity on a specific VNI? I would not pick a loopback IP address >> for this since that address range is host/node local only. Is there a >> reason you're not using the VTEP IP as the inner IP address ? >> >> Dinesh >> >> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM Greg Mirsky >> wrote: >> >>> Dear All, >>> thank you for your comments, suggestions on this issue, probably the >>> most challenging for this specification. In the course of our discussions, >>> we've agreed to abandon the request to allocate the dedicated MAC address >>> to be used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. >>> Also, earlier using VNI 0 was changed from mandatory to one of the options >>> an implementation may offer to an operator. The most recent discussion was >>> whether VTEP's MAC address might be used as the destination MAC address in >>> the inner Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the comments from VXLAN experts >>> equally split with one for it and one against. Hence I would like to >>> propose a new text to resolve the issue. The idea is to let an operator >>> select Management VNI and use that VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of BFD >>> Control packets: >>> NEW TEXT: >>> >>> An operator MUST select a VNI number to be used as Management VNI. VXLAN >>> packet for Management VNI MUST NOT be sent to a tenant. VNI number 1 is >>> RECOMMENDED as the default for Management VNI. >>> >>> With that new text, what can be the value of the destination MAC in the >>> inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that it can be anything and ignored by >>> the reciever VTEP. Also, if the trapping is based on VNI number, the >>> destination IP address of the inner IP packet can from the range 127/8 for >>> IPv4, and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. And lastly, >>> the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here). >>> >>> Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Greg >>> >> --000000000000fec26b058efdac9e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have checked with implementation in data path. When we r= eceive a packet with valid VNI then lookup for MAC will happen and it is VT= EP own MAC then it will be trapped to control plane for processing. I think= we can have following options=C2=A0
1. Optional managment VNI=C2=A0
2. Mandatory inner MAC set to VTEP mac
3. Inner IP TTL se= t to 1 to avoid forwarding of packet via inner IP address.=C2=A0
=

Thoughts?=C2=A0

Than= sk
Santosh P K=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:20 AM G= reg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.c= om> wrote:
Hi Dinesh,
thank you for your consideration of the p= roposal and questions. What would you see as the scope of testing the conne= ctivity for the specific VNI? If it is tenant-to-tenant, then VTEPs will tr= eat these packets as regular user frames. More likely, these could be Layer= 2 OAM, e.g. CCM frames. The reason to use 127/8 for IPv4, and 0:0:0:0:0:FF= FF:7F00:0/104 for IPv6 is to safeguard from leaking Ethernet frames with BF= D Control packet to a tenant.
You've suggested using a MAC ad= dress to trap the control packet at VTEP. What that address could be? We ha= d proposed using the dedicated MAC and VTEP's MAC and both raised conce= rns among VXLAN experts. The idea of using Management VNI may be more accep= table based on its similarity to the practice of using Management VLAN.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at = 12:03 PM Dinesh Dutt <didutt@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Greg,

As long as the inner MAC address is such that the packet is trapped to the= CPU, it should be fine for use as an inner MAC is it not? Stating that is = better than trying to force a management VNI. What if someone wants to test= connectivity on a specific VNI? I would not pick a loopback IP address for= this since that address range is host/node local only. Is there a reason y= ou're not using the VTEP IP as the inner IP address ?

Dinesh

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.c= om> wrote:
Dear All,
thank you for your comments, suggestions o= n this issue, probably the most challenging for this specification. In the = course of our discussions, we've agreed to abandon the request to alloc= ate the dedicated MAC address to be used as the destination MAC address in = the inner Ethernet frame. Also, earlier using VNI 0 was changed from mandat= ory to one of the options an implementation may offer to an operator. The m= ost recent discussion was whether VTEP's MAC address might be used as t= he destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the= comments from VXLAN experts equally split with one for it and one against.= Hence I would like to propose a new text to resolve the issue. The idea is= to let an operator select Management VNI and use that VNI in VXLAN encapsu= lation of BFD Control packets:
NEW TEXT:
An operato= r MUST select a VNI number to be used as Management VNI. VXLAN packet for M= anagement VNI MUST NOT be sent to a tenant. VNI number 1 is RECOMMENDED as = the default for Management VNI.
With that new text, = what can be the value of the destination MAC in the inner Ethernet? I tend = to believe that it can be anything and ignored by the reciever VTEP. Also, = if the trapping is based on VNI number, the destination IP address of the i= nner IP packet can from the range 127/8 for IPv4, and for IPv6 from the ran= ge 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. And lastly, the TTL to be set to 1 (no change= here).

Much appreciate your comments, questions, = and suggestions.

Best regards,
Greg
--000000000000fec26b058efdac9e-- From nobody Wed Jul 31 10:54:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D63A12065A; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:54:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mLklHAzCFhXd; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB4B012065C; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45zLdg5krZz1P8y2; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:53:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1564595639; bh=mVejWudJFMRY6o53pAOu9cimg4O7QHY23fQH9iGyIss=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=f8R6tHc8J/gvqYVfdUTH+RS6y2bK3UOiVovuXEvWHvDOlntKd4bbtCCrfh8kT8NnJ QL2d66ZPLJqSB3UFfPmoyNCyKdVsoonB7dRcgSi5h+ME33/6CAXSs99xMsjwzokQKW NGiQ/Lm4YAUj2UH/fcFzp6VnnA8wB/xKXq6guatQ= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from [172.20.7.244] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45zLdf3pn4z1P8xp; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: BFD over VXLAN: Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP To: Santosh P K Cc: Greg Mirsky , Dinesh Dutt , rtg-bfd WG , "T. Sridhar" , bfd-chairs@ietf.org, Martin Vigoureux , draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org References: From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 13:53:56 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 17:54:07 -0000 Sorry to ask a stupid question. Whose implementation? The reason I ask is that as far as I can tell, since the tenant does not have any control access to the VTEP, there is no reason for the VTEP to have a MAC address in the tenant space. Yes, the device has a physical MAC address. But the tenant could well be using that MAC address. Yes, they would be violating the Ethernet spec. But the whole point of segregation is not to care about such issues. On the other hand, if you tell me that the VMWare implementation has an Ethernet address that is part of the tenant space, well, they made up this particular game. Yours, Joel On 7/31/2019 1:44 PM, Santosh P K wrote: > I have checked with implementation in data path. When we receive a > packet with valid VNI then lookup for MAC will happen and it is VTEP own > MAC then it will be trapped to control plane for processing. I think we > can have following options > 1. Optional managment VNI > 2. Mandatory inner MAC set to VTEP mac > 3. Inner IP TTL set to 1 to avoid forwarding of packet via inner IP > address. > > > Thoughts? > > Thansk > Santosh P K > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:20 AM Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > Hi Dinesh, > thank you for your consideration of the proposal and questions. What > would you see as the scope of testing the connectivity for the > specific VNI? If it is tenant-to-tenant, then VTEPs will treat these > packets as regular user frames. More likely, these could be Layer 2 > OAM, e.g. CCM frames. The reason to use 127/8 for IPv4, and > 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 for IPv6 is to safeguard from leaking > Ethernet frames with BFD Control packet to a tenant. > You've suggested using a MAC address to trap the control packet at > VTEP. What that address could be? We had proposed using the > dedicated MAC and VTEP's MAC and both raised concerns among VXLAN > experts. The idea of using Management VNI may be more acceptable > based on its similarity to the practice of using Management VLAN. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:03 PM Dinesh Dutt > wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > As long as the inner MAC address is such that the packet is > trapped to the CPU, it should be fine for use as an inner MAC is > it not? Stating that is better than trying to force a management > VNI. What if someone wants to test connectivity on a specific > VNI? I would not pick a loopback IP address for this since that > address range is host/node local only. Is there a reason you're > not using the VTEP IP as the inner IP address ? > > Dinesh > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM Greg Mirsky > > wrote: > > Dear All, > thank you for your comments, suggestions on this issue, > probably the most challenging for this specification. In the > course of our discussions, we've agreed to abandon the > request to allocate the dedicated MAC address to be used as > the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. > Also, earlier using VNI 0 was changed from mandatory to one > of the options an implementation may offer to an operator. > The most recent discussion was whether VTEP's MAC address > might be used as the destination MAC address in the inner > Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the comments from VXLAN > experts equally split with one for it and one against. Hence > I would like to propose a new text to resolve the issue. The > idea is to let an operator select Management VNI and use > that VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of BFD Control packets: > NEW TEXT: > > An operator MUST select a VNI number to be used as > Management VNI. VXLAN packet for Management VNI MUST NOT > be sent to a tenant. VNI number 1 is RECOMMENDED as the > default for Management VNI. > > With that new text, what can be the value of the destination > MAC in the inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that it can be > anything and ignored by the reciever VTEP. Also, if the > trapping is based on VNI number, the destination IP address > of the inner IP packet can from the range 127/8 for IPv4, > and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. And > lastly, the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here). > > Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions. > > Best regards, > Greg > From nobody Wed Jul 31 11:00:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF8B120612; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:00:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nGhzqjrSo3eg; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com (mail-wr1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7450012060E; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id f9so70649520wre.12; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:00:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XBMp9gY8+1yr/RgC3O9AC9++Whvvr6T9K3AZCUcPVyE=; b=a4kfMAKVliwmSWsNQkaDvSlSwyiQyVmKBGArJPRxnNvYcHAAAtYbCYLW1REOwkIGrM VONTNv22ZRkHbxTV4GnfeY8L8qqeqL2FrlnSjkK/DFJhJYstgwBtSdKKXeHtEKJUstS0 OXwxVS9jenO1Hd3wV1oketyfsbM+kdAKK4mF+vof+4CpQfubaQHeQeziXJsf6E5P9WOf pbjokf5DKfowAQOxKWgEGemvh7xnQc/Yn34UWTdFB2icylBpOgE46jJ29T5eFGR2I3RN QNvePxBuY3WLXGntnW/k0RM4SOYfjidvoZg1E47EYIf3LQR4Mc82GzlMVfqNHDEMpnUy FbgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XBMp9gY8+1yr/RgC3O9AC9++Whvvr6T9K3AZCUcPVyE=; b=lVoEG03wNUpigEXyw6C2R8QA3IX+mqkPSsHSwl0Mzbgr1gEQSn/+4eomdV9jMkRaKu omUqTVr2QcDHv7gwQBorzTc5V6CdmAagiNEW7/D4qPe+1Y77rPEkBsVjXp0mSeYCNmG+ a3+5heSLIwt8rau5CWMW+T7j3nQy3Br6iLQbe+VYI80kx41EQk/9J06sgfQKvA0DJRXX Tq/Dmvh+O1pe6aQAGRrs/wqTsRRtfVlgGwrWHsiIyMAdKhTwiPzIxfCXWoc796z6hUwQ AX0AAcLxw2z1fFym1TYS5jiirz/9rJMC0JH5WUKYKzfXFr4XiX2vS9iyG/S2F2ONOh5M xb0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWqPhzm1H0gVzdA/gVyyjX76DeBsaMrjSn6uUdITYq6tYDt99kF yG2HGf9CQvKKvxo005a6cCaNTUyDrNmhOaE1DE4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyWz80J9qUQqgHTrNU9NzRyRCxe3qryqrXnKziNYGWkuW6zEO7CBiJuKcMwEkhkoCxrOZhT2FDqylzWJ3kdGWQ= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5644:: with SMTP id j4mr54763606wrw.144.1564596015966; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:00:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Santosh P K Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:00:04 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: BFD over VXLAN: Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Greg Mirsky , Dinesh Dutt , rtg-bfd WG , "T. Sridhar" , bfd-chairs@ietf.org, Martin Vigoureux , draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bfadc5058efde5ff" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 18:00:20 -0000 --000000000000bfadc5058efde5ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Joel, Thanks for your inputs. I checked implementation within Vmware. Perhaps I should have been more clear about MAC address space while checking internally. I will cross check again for the same and get back on this list. Thanks Santosh P K On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 10:54 AM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Sorry to ask a stupid question. Whose implementation? > > The reason I ask is that as far as I can tell, since the tenant does not > have any control access to the VTEP, there is no reason for the VTEP to > have a MAC address in the tenant space. Yes, the device has a physical > MAC address. But the tenant could well be using that MAC address. Yes, > they would be violating the Ethernet spec. But the whole point of > segregation is not to care about such issues. > > On the other hand, if you tell me that the VMWare implementation has an > Ethernet address that is part of the tenant space, well, they made up > this particular game. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 7/31/2019 1:44 PM, Santosh P K wrote: > > I have checked with implementation in data path. When we receive a > > packet with valid VNI then lookup for MAC will happen and it is VTEP own > > MAC then it will be trapped to control plane for processing. I think we > > can have following options > > 1. Optional managment VNI > > 2. Mandatory inner MAC set to VTEP mac > > 3. Inner IP TTL set to 1 to avoid forwarding of packet via inner IP > > address. > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Thansk > > Santosh P K > > > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:20 AM Greg Mirsky > > wrote: > > > > Hi Dinesh, > > thank you for your consideration of the proposal and questions. What > > would you see as the scope of testing the connectivity for the > > specific VNI? If it is tenant-to-tenant, then VTEPs will treat these > > packets as regular user frames. More likely, these could be Layer 2 > > OAM, e.g. CCM frames. The reason to use 127/8 for IPv4, and > > 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 for IPv6 is to safeguard from leaking > > Ethernet frames with BFD Control packet to a tenant. > > You've suggested using a MAC address to trap the control packet at > > VTEP. What that address could be? We had proposed using the > > dedicated MAC and VTEP's MAC and both raised concerns among VXLAN > > experts. The idea of using Management VNI may be more acceptable > > based on its similarity to the practice of using Management VLAN. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:03 PM Dinesh Dutt > > wrote: > > > > Hi Greg, > > > > As long as the inner MAC address is such that the packet is > > trapped to the CPU, it should be fine for use as an inner MAC is > > it not? Stating that is better than trying to force a management > > VNI. What if someone wants to test connectivity on a specific > > VNI? I would not pick a loopback IP address for this since that > > address range is host/node local only. Is there a reason you're > > not using the VTEP IP as the inner IP address ? > > > > Dinesh > > > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM Greg Mirsky > > > wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > thank you for your comments, suggestions on this issue, > > probably the most challenging for this specification. In the > > course of our discussions, we've agreed to abandon the > > request to allocate the dedicated MAC address to be used as > > the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. > > Also, earlier using VNI 0 was changed from mandatory to one > > of the options an implementation may offer to an operator. > > The most recent discussion was whether VTEP's MAC address > > might be used as the destination MAC address in the inner > > Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the comments from VXLAN > > experts equally split with one for it and one against. Hence > > I would like to propose a new text to resolve the issue. The > > idea is to let an operator select Management VNI and use > > that VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of BFD Control packets: > > NEW TEXT: > > > > An operator MUST select a VNI number to be used as > > Management VNI. VXLAN packet for Management VNI MUST NOT > > be sent to a tenant. VNI number 1 is RECOMMENDED as the > > default for Management VNI. > > > > With that new text, what can be the value of the destination > > MAC in the inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that it can be > > anything and ignored by the reciever VTEP. Also, if the > > trapping is based on VNI number, the destination IP address > > of the inner IP packet can from the range 127/8 for IPv4, > > and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. And > > lastly, the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here). > > > > Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions. > > > > Best regards, > > Greg > > > --000000000000bfadc5058efde5ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Joel,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for your inputs. I checked i= mplementation within Vmware. Perhaps I should have been more clear about MA= C address space while checking internally. I will cross check again for the= same and get back on this list.=C2=A0

Thanks
Santosh P K=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 10:54 AM Joel M. Halp= ern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> = wrote:
Sorry to = ask a stupid question.=C2=A0 Whose implementation?

The reason I ask is that as far as I can tell, since the tenant does not have any control access to the VTEP, there is no reason for the VTEP to have a MAC address in the tenant space.=C2=A0 Yes, the device has a physica= l
MAC address.=C2=A0 But the tenant could well be using that MAC address.=C2= =A0 Yes,
they would be violating the Ethernet spec.=C2=A0 But the whole point of segregation is not to care about such issues.

On the other hand, if you tell me that the VMWare implementation has an Ethernet address that is part of the tenant space, well, they made up
this particular game.

Yours,
Joel

On 7/31/2019 1:44 PM, Santosh P K wrote:
> I have checked with implementation in data path. When we receive a > packet with valid VNI then lookup for MAC will happen and it is VTEP o= wn
> MAC then it will be trapped to control plane for processing. I think w= e
> can have following options
> 1. Optional managment VNI
> 2. Mandatory inner MAC set to VTEP mac
> 3. Inner IP TTL set to 1 to avoid forwarding of packet via inner IP > address.
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thansk
> Santosh P K
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:20 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com
> <mailto:= gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Dinesh,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0thank you for your consideration of the proposal an= d questions. What
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would you see as the scope of testing the connectiv= ity for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specific VNI? If it is tenant-to-tenant, then VTEPs= will treat these
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packets as regular user frames. More likely, these = could be Layer 2
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0OAM, e.g. CCM frames. The reason to use 127/8 for I= Pv4, and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 for IPv6 is to safeguard = from leaking
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ethernet frames with BFD Control packet to a tenant= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0You've suggested using a MAC address to trap th= e control packet at
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0VTEP. What that address could be? We had proposed u= sing the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0dedicated MAC and VTEP's MAC and both raised co= ncerns among VXLAN
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0experts. The idea of using Management VNI may be mo= re acceptable
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0based on its similarity to the practice of using Ma= nagement VLAN.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Regards,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Greg
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:03 PM Dinesh Dutt <didutt@gmail.com >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:didutt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Greg,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As long as the inner MAC address is s= uch that the packet is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trapped to the CPU, it should be fine= for use as an inner MAC is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0it not? Stating that is better than t= rying to force a management
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0VNI. What if someone wants to test co= nnectivity on a specific
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0VNI? I would not pick a loopback IP a= ddress for this since that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0address range is host/node local only= . Is there a reason you're
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not using the VTEP IP as the inner IP= address ?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dinesh
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM Greg = Mirsky
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>= ;> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dear All,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0thank you for your comm= ents, suggestions on this issue,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0probably the most chall= enging for this specification. In the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0course of our discussio= ns, we've agreed to abandon the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0request to allocate the= dedicated MAC address to be used as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the destination MAC add= ress in the inner Ethernet frame.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, earlier using VNI= 0 was changed from mandatory to one
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the options an imple= mentation may offer to an operator.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The most recent discuss= ion was whether VTEP's MAC address
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0might be used as the de= stination MAC address in the inner
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ethernet frame. As I re= call it, the comments from VXLAN
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0experts equally split w= ith one for it and one against. Hence
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I would like to propose= a new text to resolve the issue. The
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0idea is to let an opera= tor select Management VNI and use
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that VNI in VXLAN encap= sulation of BFD Control packets:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0NEW TEXT:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0An operat= or MUST select a VNI number to be used as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Managemen= t VNI. VXLAN packet for Management VNI MUST NOT
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be sent t= o a tenant. VNI number 1 is RECOMMENDED as the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0default f= or Management VNI.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0With that new text, wha= t can be the value of the destination
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MAC in the inner Ethern= et? I tend to believe that it can be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0anything and ignored by= the reciever VTEP. Also, if the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trapping is based on VN= I number, the destination IP address
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the inner IP packet = can from the range 127/8 for IPv4,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and for IPv6 from the r= ange 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. And
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lastly, the TTL to be s= et to 1 (no change here).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Much appreciate your co= mments, questions, and suggestions.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Greg
>
--000000000000bfadc5058efde5ff-- From nobody Wed Jul 31 11:05:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51981201CE; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:05:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WBNWiWzlpiQB; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4815B12017C; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45zLvM141hzKm71; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:05:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1564596351; bh=gSqIgmRRFGMpJmVMUro/HCzfA/axVGvGU5pRWSeIGnw=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=RjJmpDYh4p7sUzs7oiynKmaAqCCC2XP1hORG5qxPDWOH5DeeeDTt8/WxQfUtvSyj8 G8TgaXSqZ/ODwD3VhkcdKui9ZzhYdS2zbezS78VLGj4fZF8zB2f9youEz0bCVcYxeX dzVCYUVCitR8y2VLqhVpERO4WO8orlCOyX1jAyL0= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from [172.20.7.244] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45zLvL0djTz1P8xp; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: BFD over VXLAN: Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP To: Greg Mirsky , rtg-bfd WG , "T. Sridhar" , Dinesh Dutt , bfd-chairs@ietf.org, Martin Vigoureux Cc: draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org References: From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 14:05:49 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 18:05:53 -0000 I made the mistake of assuming we were in agreement. What Greg has proposed below makes very good sense to me. Thank you Greg. Joel On 7/31/2019 8:48 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Dear All, > thank you for your comments, suggestions on this issue, probably the > most challenging for this specification. In the course of our > discussions, we've agreed to abandon the request to allocate the > dedicated MAC address to be used as the destination MAC address in the > inner Ethernet frame. Also, earlier using VNI 0 was changed from > mandatory to one of the options an implementation may offer to an > operator. The most recent discussion was whether VTEP's MAC address > might be used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet > frame. As I recall it, the comments from VXLAN experts equally split > with one for it and one against. Hence I would like to propose a new > text to resolve the issue. The idea is to let an operator select > Management VNI and use that VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of BFD Control > packets: > NEW TEXT: > > An operator MUST select a VNI number to be used as Management VNI. > VXLAN packet for Management VNI MUST NOT be sent to a tenant. VNI > number 1 is RECOMMENDED as the default for Management VNI. > > With that new text, what can be the value of the destination MAC in the > inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that it can be anything and ignored by > the reciever VTEP. Also, if the trapping is based on VNI number, the > destination IP address of the inner IP packet can from the range 127/8 > for IPv4, and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. And > lastly, the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here). > > Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions. > > Best regards, > Greg From nobody Wed Jul 31 11:26:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF1F1206C3; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:25:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mgR7XhPmBoPy; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B744612019C; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id r1so70719307wrl.7; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:25:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xNlPx4DxEkgFLI3ccLdFML6TiUma/NrXd0DN2t8ndk0=; b=S0Z57nnO2VpnG2h/INijCbexPKZ0UlbcsdkDptOao7xmQ4JF9ZTiUS9gCe6IuH1eE0 BPZKgRN47b52d9FaFTDXVIqaO8bTloglF1ZI+YMGsf9Nv4i8Cd+m7w7ZNt7DjpRxiqNG XFS/OU4nGcbKsESepRGITdzUMp8K0Eu2dq8JYaHnqMYuyoU4oqZ6XKEOo1a6IMMaeRmB 3MEreNvkySwkeh8pJiB8vUYTQVP1dVW4dLtxxJHTKpU4nf10ABqxL3grCNGwK6/hdIy0 CV21srSHAMk4v7QEB8Pv661rryExu4JT2W93NBUTBeYhzknozWPtGa7mfo4tBGglYDwN iBOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xNlPx4DxEkgFLI3ccLdFML6TiUma/NrXd0DN2t8ndk0=; b=tatoJEZCp5PWOnKq/BMTTO7xXl8OfX9XNb0HD+9E7tEXYckdy328YYkc5KWyOYHLL/ 8GGQmb0Sm18ESrzvu3zRSdL4MyaXXIMhEcsHbKFAu9dVYRJynOBZI9aZ57jCfbElLWDy jRMWrV5M5fwvjO4rCJ+R8HsWY+sodEI0iaZ4Ybmh9Osq6Dh4MQUOC3xs+C+fqbFLAB7f qtUWTihZjw2CptUsBzuYFaF0RxypLQg/rRYrIUbgSF/tzbbWqCJr+gs5SkNTMPEkoRtn cn/dxUWklkcqE/B0ioBChU7B2jY0imfFmpIGDKpLN4hwwCFg3lJBxXC33gaTYlIxCTXb uzdA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXDSEclqlSONhJMEoxpmyJ9hrZQO+sattJg0dg43ZuFCZ0znbE6 0KdpgYY27qQBFHoZTAaf+WMf0UwJt0EGrA1mK1Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy+iPZaZmZBpZnL3iUiQMSYD9nW7xgsvhWHMU62grJAqLz+8moIY86wIrV76go5oP16VxOMCQ5P2tQrEAl5YUI= X-Received: by 2002:adf:cd04:: with SMTP id w4mr86974739wrm.230.1564597534158; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:25:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dinesh Dutt Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:25:21 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: BFD over VXLAN: Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP To: Greg Mirsky Cc: rtg-bfd WG , "T. Sridhar" , Joel Halpern , bfd-chairs@ietf.org, Martin Vigoureux , draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003d7ab2058efe407e" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:26:55 -0700 X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 18:25:37 -0000 --0000000000003d7ab2058efe407e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Greg, On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:20 AM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Dinesh, > thank you for your consideration of the proposal and questions. What would > you see as the scope of testing the connectivity for the specific VNI? If > it is tenant-to-tenant, then VTEPs will treat these packets as regular user > frames. More likely, these could be Layer 2 OAM, e.g. CCM frames. The > reason to use 127/8 for IPv4, and 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 for IPv6 is to > safeguard from leaking Ethernet frames with BFD Control packet to a tenant. > You've suggested using a MAC address to trap the control packet at VTEP. > What that address could be? We had proposed using the dedicated MAC and > VTEP's MAC and both raised concerns among VXLAN experts. The idea of using > Management VNI may be more acceptable based on its similarity to the > practice of using Management VLAN. > If you use the inner IP address as the VTEP IP address, then use the MAC address that the VTEP would respond with when replying to an ARP for that VTEP IP address. If a VXLAN expert disagrees with this, could you kindly tell me who it is so that I can understand their disagreement? So this handles the case where the VNI is not a user-tenant VNI. If the VNI used in the BFD packet is a user-tenant VNI, then the receiving VTEP MUST have an IP address in that VNI (mapped to a VRF) else you cannot use that VNI in the BFD packet. Why won't this combination address all the cases you've listed? What am I missing? Define VNI 1 as a possible use, not VNI 0. I objected to VNI 0 because there are too many switching siicon out there and some of them will not be able to handle this scenario. Dinesh > > Regards, > Greg > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:03 PM Dinesh Dutt wrote: > >> Hi Greg, >> >> As long as the inner MAC address is such that the packet is trapped to >> the CPU, it should be fine for use as an inner MAC is it not? Stating that >> is better than trying to force a management VNI. What if someone wants to >> test connectivity on a specific VNI? I would not pick a loopback IP address >> for this since that address range is host/node local only. Is there a >> reason you're not using the VTEP IP as the inner IP address ? >> >> Dinesh >> >> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM Greg Mirsky >> wrote: >> >>> Dear All, >>> thank you for your comments, suggestions on this issue, probably the >>> most challenging for this specification. In the course of our discussions, >>> we've agreed to abandon the request to allocate the dedicated MAC address >>> to be used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. >>> Also, earlier using VNI 0 was changed from mandatory to one of the options >>> an implementation may offer to an operator. The most recent discussion was >>> whether VTEP's MAC address might be used as the destination MAC address in >>> the inner Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the comments from VXLAN experts >>> equally split with one for it and one against. Hence I would like to >>> propose a new text to resolve the issue. The idea is to let an operator >>> select Management VNI and use that VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of BFD >>> Control packets: >>> NEW TEXT: >>> >>> An operator MUST select a VNI number to be used as Management VNI. VXLAN >>> packet for Management VNI MUST NOT be sent to a tenant. VNI number 1 is >>> RECOMMENDED as the default for Management VNI. >>> >>> With that new text, what can be the value of the destination MAC in the >>> inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that it can be anything and ignored by >>> the reciever VTEP. Also, if the trapping is based on VNI number, the >>> destination IP address of the inner IP packet can from the range 127/8 for >>> IPv4, and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. And lastly, >>> the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here). >>> >>> Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Greg >>> >> --0000000000003d7ab2058efe407e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Greg,

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:20 = AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gma= il.com> wrote:
Hi Dinesh,
thank you for your consideration of t= he proposal and questions. What would you see as the scope of testing the c= onnectivity for the specific VNI? If it is tenant-to-tenant, then VTEPs wil= l treat these packets as regular user frames. More likely, these could be L= ayer 2 OAM, e.g. CCM frames. The reason to use 127/8 for IPv4, and 0:0:0:0:= 0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 for IPv6 is to safeguard from leaking Ethernet frames wit= h BFD Control packet to a tenant.
You've suggested using a MA= C address to trap the control packet at VTEP. What that address could be? W= e had proposed using the dedicated MAC and VTEP's MAC and both raised c= oncerns among VXLAN experts. The idea of using Management VNI may be more a= cceptable based on its similarity to the practice of using Management VLAN.=

If you use the inner IP addres= s as the VTEP IP address, then use the MAC address that the VTEP would resp= ond with when replying to an ARP for that VTEP IP address. If a VXLAN exper= t disagrees with this, could you kindly tell me who it is so that I can und= erstand their disagreement? So this handles the case where the VNI is not a= user-tenant VNI. If the VNI used in the BFD packet is a user-tenant VNI, t= hen the receiving VTEP MUST have an IP address in that VNI (mapped to a VRF= ) else you cannot use that VNI in the BFD packet. Why won't this combin= ation address all the cases you've listed? What am I missing? Define VN= I 1 as a possible use, not VNI 0. I objected to VNI 0 because there are too= many switching siicon out there and some of them will not be able to handl= e this scenario.

Dinesh

R= egards,
Greg

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:03 PM Dinesh Dutt = <didutt@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
Hi Greg,

As long as the inner= MAC address is such that the packet is trapped to the CPU, it should be fi= ne for use as an inner MAC is it not? Stating that is better than trying to= force a management VNI. What if someone wants to test connectivity on a sp= ecific VNI? I would not pick a loopback IP address for this since that addr= ess range is host/node local only. Is there a reason you're not using t= he VTEP IP as the inner IP address ?

Dinesh

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
=
De= ar All,
thank you for your comments, suggestions on this issue, probabl= y the most challenging for this specification. In the course of our discuss= ions, we've agreed to abandon the request to allocate the dedicated MAC= address to be used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet fr= ame. Also, earlier using VNI 0 was changed from mandatory to one of the opt= ions an implementation may offer to an operator. The most recent discussion= was whether VTEP's MAC address might be used as the destination MAC ad= dress in the inner Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the comments from VXLAN = experts equally split with one for it and one against. Hence I would like t= o propose a new text to resolve the issue. The idea is to let an operator s= elect Management VNI and use that VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of BFD Control= packets:
NEW TEXT:
An operator MUST select a VNI num= ber to be used as Management VNI. VXLAN packet for Management VNI MUST NOT = be sent to a tenant. VNI number 1 is RECOMMENDED as the default for Managem= ent VNI.
With that new text, what can be the value o= f the destination MAC in the inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that it can = be anything and ignored by the reciever VTEP. Also, if the trapping is base= d on VNI number, the destination IP address of the inner IP packet can from= the range 127/8 for IPv4, and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:= 0/104. And lastly, the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here).

<= /div>
Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions.
<= div>
Best regards,
Greg
--0000000000003d7ab2058efe407e-- From nobody Wed Jul 31 12:07:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3144212004F; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:07:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JxHPo5mxkzoc; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22a.google.com (mail-lj1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 773BE120018; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id v18so66676730ljh.6; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:07:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VXEGsgO1mvFxej6rfXCC42yjOYvJMqqjT6K4A6K6vCw=; b=l1iwrbsO9HVkfcWAV7oKlBgb0Ktl40mDKlhM9d1A2F9I34rQe4fO1mcTWzA4QKHYIJ NnNrgoOKG0MhOVucFLUnY1EzevZrybqoUgmGMJbU5FCcrevP6H2Z2K1w9xxAf27oSmn4 SHDfiu/oDUrNGG+fAeUU6T1zaKVWVS8KvjrmbrGnVKGP191zsOwjIs2hBt4YOupjeiqQ mmw+U1xG7ZyR+R60SauKPaSa0KeHAVckRYa1vlXU2d6jMPX1monxb92PgDRVLeUkHpTS /Lgte7IMJHKpVfZ9zqVX0MjzIYnKgF3+mucSdgnINvjzeNOpj2ht+GAwISH/ykx4yovL f34Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VXEGsgO1mvFxej6rfXCC42yjOYvJMqqjT6K4A6K6vCw=; b=tnSPkPQXnQfnGXtMshK77xhIPndCc9cGxSlwtd2WqhI4SokADghB5MZ4hIodqP8yA5 Z++8gf60RMy65Ox6RNbCd/rV5KZKqMkue6yZnw0wBVwye8ieXSMzIOL7KCGHPsad8MTE T8t9H6/KqA0UY5m4Hbd3FKxioc2vAVVLVo78k3jP4ddo5u3p36aVg6g9apYBDoNKWCCm VxjTV5tlCq7R5knFxumvfbs6HUHSmuhXwY9qbcRKDvYwikTozqZ+qQ5jHvnjIA7bKwax NiEiw/JlTD1nqyKjEO8FQuAhxjyVbFp3OAS6HmagNtvjPVGXg8kD1n4VCWoGz+JzADyY jMbA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUhjU/qNA7wPB02vcA1I6JXyK3kskaN9feMC4Q2DKHes2Zvmeui 4xtNbhKxbjLpp+9beEV2zUhbu8m83rWOL4iIb+w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxwF8myzqBJBaR2Cr59H0GbvdhWMtZ3QgsxY8LIdyfEV7JygejEqA7BeNNYWSW8FIiHLDqzAwjiV9ZuEysFztg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7d0c:: with SMTP id y12mr15653696ljc.36.1564600058579; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:07:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 15:07:28 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: BFD over VXLAN: Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP To: Dinesh Dutt Cc: rtg-bfd WG , "T. Sridhar" , Joel Halpern , bfd-chairs@ietf.org, Martin Vigoureux , draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b50dba058efed6f6" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 19:07:43 -0000 --000000000000b50dba058efed6f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Dinesh, if I recall correctly, T.Sridhar has noted that VTEP's MAC must not be used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. Also, I should have been more precise in the proposed text, please see the updated version to stress that the management VNI MUST NOT be one of the tenant's VNIs: NEW TEXT: An operator MUST select a VNI number to be used as Management VNI. Management VNI number MUST NOT be one of the tenant's VNIs to prevent sending VXLAN packets received on Management VNI to a tenant. VNI number 1 is RECOMMENDED as the default for Management VNI. On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 2:25 PM Dinesh Dutt wrote: > Hi Greg, > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:20 AM Greg Mirsky wrote: > >> Hi Dinesh, >> thank you for your consideration of the proposal and questions. What >> would you see as the scope of testing the connectivity for the specific >> VNI? If it is tenant-to-tenant, then VTEPs will treat these packets as >> regular user frames. More likely, these could be Layer 2 OAM, e.g. CCM >> frames. The reason to use 127/8 for IPv4, and 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 for >> IPv6 is to safeguard from leaking Ethernet frames with BFD Control packet >> to a tenant. >> You've suggested using a MAC address to trap the control packet at VTEP. >> What that address could be? We had proposed using the dedicated MAC and >> VTEP's MAC and both raised concerns among VXLAN experts. The idea of using >> Management VNI may be more acceptable based on its similarity to the >> practice of using Management VLAN. >> > > If you use the inner IP address as the VTEP IP address, then use the MAC > address that the VTEP would respond with when replying to an ARP for that > VTEP IP address. If a VXLAN expert disagrees with this, could you kindly > tell me who it is so that I can understand their disagreement? So this > handles the case where the VNI is not a user-tenant VNI. If the VNI used in > the BFD packet is a user-tenant VNI, then the receiving VTEP MUST have an > IP address in that VNI (mapped to a VRF) else you cannot use that VNI in > the BFD packet. Why won't this combination address all the cases you've > listed? What am I missing? Define VNI 1 as a possible use, not VNI 0. I > objected to VNI 0 because there are too many switching siicon out there and > some of them will not be able to handle this scenario. > > Dinesh > >> >> Regards, >> Greg >> >> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:03 PM Dinesh Dutt wrote: >> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> As long as the inner MAC address is such that the packet is trapped to >>> the CPU, it should be fine for use as an inner MAC is it not? Stating that >>> is better than trying to force a management VNI. What if someone wants to >>> test connectivity on a specific VNI? I would not pick a loopback IP address >>> for this since that address range is host/node local only. Is there a >>> reason you're not using the VTEP IP as the inner IP address ? >>> >>> Dinesh >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM Greg Mirsky >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear All, >>>> thank you for your comments, suggestions on this issue, probably the >>>> most challenging for this specification. In the course of our discussions, >>>> we've agreed to abandon the request to allocate the dedicated MAC address >>>> to be used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. >>>> Also, earlier using VNI 0 was changed from mandatory to one of the options >>>> an implementation may offer to an operator. The most recent discussion was >>>> whether VTEP's MAC address might be used as the destination MAC address in >>>> the inner Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the comments from VXLAN experts >>>> equally split with one for it and one against. Hence I would like to >>>> propose a new text to resolve the issue. The idea is to let an operator >>>> select Management VNI and use that VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of BFD >>>> Control packets: >>>> NEW TEXT: >>>> >>>> An operator MUST select a VNI number to be used as Management VNI. >>>> VXLAN packet for Management VNI MUST NOT be sent to a tenant. VNI number 1 >>>> is RECOMMENDED as the default for Management VNI. >>>> >>>> With that new text, what can be the value of the destination MAC in the >>>> inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that it can be anything and ignored by >>>> the reciever VTEP. Also, if the trapping is based on VNI number, the >>>> destination IP address of the inner IP packet can from the range 127/8 for >>>> IPv4, and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. And lastly, >>>> the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here). >>>> >>>> Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Greg >>>> >>> --000000000000b50dba058efed6f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dinesh,
if I recall=C2=A0correctly= , T.Sridhar has noted that VTEP's MAC must not be used as the destinati= on MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. Also, I should have been more p= recise in the proposed text, please see the updated version to stress that = the management VNI MUST NOT be one of the tenant's VNIs:
NEW = TEXT:
An operator MUST select a VNI number to be used= as Management VNI. Management VNI number MUST NOT be one of the tenant'= ;s VNIs to prevent sending VXLAN packets received on Management VNI to a te= nant. VNI number 1 is RECOMMENDED as the default for Management VNI.=C2=A0= =C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 2:25 PM Dinesh Dutt <didutt@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Hi Greg,

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:20 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Dinesh,
thank you for your consideration of the prop= osal and questions. What would you see as the scope of testing the connecti= vity for the specific VNI? If it is tenant-to-tenant, then VTEPs will treat= these packets as regular user frames. More likely, these could be Layer 2 = OAM, e.g. CCM frames. The reason to use 127/8 for IPv4, and 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:= 7F00:0/104 for IPv6 is to safeguard from leaking Ethernet frames with BFD C= ontrol packet to a tenant.
You've suggested using a MAC addre= ss to trap the control packet at VTEP. What that address could be? We had p= roposed using the dedicated MAC and VTEP's MAC and both raised concerns= among VXLAN experts. The idea of using Management VNI may be more acceptab= le based on its similarity to the practice of using Management VLAN.
<= /div>

If you use the inner IP address as th= e VTEP IP address, then use the MAC address that the VTEP would respond wit= h when replying to an ARP for that VTEP IP address. If a VXLAN expert disag= rees with this, could you kindly tell me who it is so that I can understand= their disagreement? So this handles the case where the VNI is not a user-t= enant VNI. If the VNI used in the BFD packet is a user-tenant VNI, then the= receiving VTEP MUST have an IP address in that VNI (mapped to a VRF) else = you cannot use that VNI in the BFD packet. Why won't this combination a= ddress all the cases you've listed? What am I missing? Define VNI 1 as = a possible use, not VNI 0. I objected to VNI 0 because there are too many s= witching siicon out there and some of them will not be able to handle this = scenario.


On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:03 PM Dinesh Dutt <didutt@gmail.com> w= rote:
Hi Greg,

As long as the inner MAC ad= dress is such that the packet is trapped to the CPU, it should be fine for = use as an inner MAC is it not? Stating that is better than trying to force = a management VNI. What if someone wants to test connectivity on a specific = VNI? I would not pick a loopback IP address for this since that address ran= ge is host/node local only. Is there a reason you're not using the VTEP= IP as the inner IP address ?

Dinesh

On W= ed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,= 204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
Dear All,=
thank you for your comments, suggestions on this issue, probably the m= ost challenging for this specification. In the course of our discussions, w= e've agreed to abandon the request to allocate the dedicated MAC addres= s to be used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame. Al= so, earlier using VNI 0 was changed from mandatory to one of the options an= implementation may offer to an operator. The most recent discussion was wh= ether VTEP's MAC address might be used as the destination MAC address i= n the inner Ethernet frame. As I recall it, the comments from VXLAN experts= equally split with one for it and one against. Hence I would like to propo= se a new text to resolve the issue. The idea is to let an operator select M= anagement VNI and use that VNI in VXLAN encapsulation of BFD Control packet= s:
NEW TEXT:
An operator MUST select a VNI number to = be used as Management VNI. VXLAN packet for Management VNI MUST NOT be sent= to a tenant. VNI number 1 is RECOMMENDED as the default for Management VNI= .
With that new text, what can be the value of the d= estination MAC in the inner Ethernet? I tend to believe that it can be anyt= hing and ignored by the reciever VTEP. Also, if the trapping is based on VN= I number, the destination IP address of the inner IP packet can from the ra= nge 127/8 for IPv4, and for IPv6 from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. = And lastly, the TTL to be set to 1 (no change here).

Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions.
Best regards,
Greg
--000000000000b50dba058efed6f6--