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From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "rtgwg@ietf.org" <rtgwg@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Paths
Thread-Topic: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Paths
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Robert/Sasha,


S-BFD based mechanism is  head-end triggered protection. It is not a local =
protection.
S-BFD mechanism is orthogonal to the mechanism described in this draft and =
an operator can
choose what kind of protection makes more sense to his/her network.

In many cases, node-protecting backup path will be different from link-prot=
ecting/SRLG protecting backup path.
If you really want to use link-protecting backup path when link fails and n=
ode protecting backup path when node fails,
You will have to download both link protecting and node-protecting backup p=
aths in FIB and detect which
failure really happened and have the ability in hardware to use appropriate=
 backup path. None of these
is in the scope of this document.

Rgds
Shraddha


From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019 8:15 PM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net=
>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Robert,
On the second thought, for the purpose of this draft (i.e. in the scope of =
SR) it is possible to implement your suggestion by running S-BFD sessions b=
etween R7 (as the initiator) and each other adjacency of R8  (acting as Ref=
lectors) of a SR policy with list of two SIDs:
- protected adjacency between R7 and R8
- Node SID of the specific "other" adjacency  of R8.

If all these sessions fail, R7 can reliably consider R8 as failed.

I am not sure this would be much better than multi-hop IP BFD, and it looks=
 much more complicated to me.


What do you think?




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bc$>

________________________________
From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com<mailto:Alexand=
er.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019, 13:15
To: Robert Raszuk; Shraddha Hegde
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths


Robert,
Lots of thanks for a prompt response.

I respectfully disagree with your statement that BFD implementation  is usu=
ally offloaded to the HW of the ingress line card.  I do not think this can=
 wor for MH BFD sessions because the ingress and egress line cards are not =
known in advance and change with the routing changes
A good  multi-hop BFD implementation should be ready to overcome this.. The=
re are many ways to achieve that. A naive implementation that runs in SW of=
 the control card is also possible of course. And they would sensd and rece=
ive packets

My 2c.
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________________________________
From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019, 12:37
To: Alexander Vainshtein; Shraddha Hegde
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths


Hi Sasha,

On the surface your suggestion may look cool - but if you zoom in - I do no=
t think it will work in practice.

See - one of the biggest value of BFD is its offload to line card's hardwar=
e. And in most cases it is ingress line card to the box. So if you instruct=
 such hardware to respond to SID address loopback you still did not gain mu=
ch in terms of detection router's fabric failures, remote LC failure or con=
trol plane issues which could soon result in box failure. The catalogue of =
router failures is of course much more colorful.

If you ask BFD to be responded by RP/RE it no longer has the BFD advantage.

IMHO the best way to detect node failure is actually to send the probes *ac=
ross* the node under test to its peers.

The way I would think of establishing such m-hop sessions would be fully au=
tomated with one knob per IGP adj. ex: "bfd detect-node-failure [max N]" wh=
ere local BFD subsystem would create N sessions to IGP peers of the node we=
 are to protect. LSDB has those peers so no new protocol extension is neede=
d, perhaps even no new IETF draft is required :). N would be the limit of s=
uch sessions in case the node under protection has say 10s of peers. Defaul=
t could be perhaps even 1.

Thx,
Robert.


On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:00 AM Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com<mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
Shraddha, Robert and all,
Regarding Robert's question:
I wonder if multi-hop IP BFD session with addresses used as /32 (or /128) p=
refixes serving as Nose SIDs of R8 and R7 respectively could be used as suc=
h a trigger by R7? Such a session would not respond to link failures, and I=
 find it problematic to imagine a scenario when it would be kept UP in the =
case of a real node failure.

Of course such a session would have to be slow enough not to react to link =
failures. But it still couks be much faster than IGP conversion IMHO.

My 2c,
Sasha

Such


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________________________________
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on b=
ehalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:22
To: Shraddha Hegde
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Hi Shraddha,

I have one question to the document.

As you know the critical element for the effective protection of any scheme=
 is the failure detection. On that your draft seems to have just one little=
 paragraph:


   Note that R7 activates the node-protecting backup path when it

   detects that the link to R8 has failed.  R7 does not know that node

   R8 has actually failed.  However, the node-protecting backup path is

   computed assuming that the failure of the link to R8 implies that R8

   has failed.

Well IMO this is not enough. Specifically there can be a lot of types of no=
de failure when link is still up. Moreover there can be even running BFD ac=
ross the link just fine when say fabric failure occurs at R8.

While this is not solely issue with this draft, it is our common IETF failu=
re to provide correct means of detecting end to end path or fragments of pa=
th failures (I am specifically not calling them segment here :).

For example I propose that to effectively detect R8 failure as node failure=
 which is the topic of your proposal a mechanism is clearly defined and inc=
ludes bi-dir data plane probes send between R7-R9, R3-R7, R4-R7, R4-R9, R3-=
R9

Many thx,
Robert.


On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 4:38 AM Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=3D40juniper.net@dm=
arc.ietf..org<mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
WG,

This is the draft I pointed out that talks about solutions for providing no=
de-protection.
It covers Anycast case as well as keeping forwarding plane longer.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-pa=
ths-05<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/375SW6TBGP=
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17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0Vmgg0xmj_C$>

Review and comments solicited.

Rgds
Shraddha

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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Robert/Sasha,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">S-BFD based mechanism is &nbsp;head-end triggered pr=
otection. It is not a local protection.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">S-BFD mechanism is orthogonal to the mechanism descr=
ibed in this draft and an operator can
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">choose what kind of protection makes more sense to h=
is/her network.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In many cases, node-protecting backup path will be d=
ifferent from link-protecting/SRLG protecting backup path.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you really want to use link-protecting backup pat=
h when link fails and node protecting backup path when node fails,<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You will have to download both link protecting and n=
ode-protecting backup paths in FIB and detect which<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">failure really happened and have the ability in hard=
ware to use appropriate backup path. None of these<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is in the scope of this document.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Rgds<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vain=
shtein@ecitele.com&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 23, 2019 8:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;; Shraddha Hegde &lt;shra=
ddha@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate node=
s in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">On the second thought, for the purpose of this draft (i.e. in the scop=
e of SR) it is possible to implement your suggestion by running S-BFD sessi=
ons between R7 (as the initiator) and
 each other adjacency of R8&nbsp; (acting as Reflectors) of a SR policy wit=
h list of two SIDs:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">- protected adjacency between R7 and R8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">- Node SID of the specific &quot;other&quot; adjacency&nbsp; of R8.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">If all these sessions fail, R7 can reliably consider R8 as failed.&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">I am not sure this would be much better than multi-hop IP BFD, and it =
looks much more complicated to me.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">What do you think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div id=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/ak=
a.ms/ghei36__;!8WoA6RjC81c!Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1Eb=
rioDE0VmgnYBhAbc$">
Outlook for Android</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-74ed52be-d7d4-4ced-94d3-671c6f1b4e71">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</s=
pan></strong> Saturday, November 23, 2019, 13:15<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</spa=
n></strong> Robert Raszuk; Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</spa=
n></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org">rtgwg@ietf.org</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org">
rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject:=
</span></strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nod=
es in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Lots of thanks for a prompt response.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">I respectfully disagree with your statement that BFD implementation&nb=
sp; is usually offloaded to the HW of the ingress line card.&nbsp; I do not=
 think this can wor for MH BFD sessions because
 the ingress and egress line cards are not known in advance and change with=
 the routing changes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">A good&nbsp; multi-hop BFD implementation should be ready to overcome =
this.. There are many ways to achieve that. A naive implementation that run=
s in SW of the control card is also possible
 of course. And they would sensd and receive packets&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">My 2c.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div id=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/ak=
a.ms/ghei36__;!8WoA6RjC81c!Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1Eb=
rioDE0VmgnYBhAbc$">
Outlook for Android</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-489fbd3c-6e9f-45dd-96d9-cf663b19aa9f">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ro=
bert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</s=
pan></strong> Saturday, November 23, 2019, 12:37<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</spa=
n></strong> Alexander Vainshtein; Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</spa=
n></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org">rtgwg@ietf.org</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org">
rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject:=
</span></strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nod=
es in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On the surface your suggestion may look cool - but i=
f you zoom in - I do not think it will work in practice.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See - one of the biggest value of BFD is its offload=
 to line card's hardware. And in most cases it is ingress line card to the =
box. So if you instruct such hardware to respond to SID address loopback yo=
u still did not gain much in terms
 of detection router's fabric failures, remote LC failure or control&nbsp;p=
lane issues which could soon result in box failure. The catalogue of router=
 failures is of course much more colorful.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you ask BFD to be responded by RP/RE it no longer=
 has the BFD advantage.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMHO the best way to detect node failure&nbsp;is act=
ually to send the probes *across* the node under test to its peers.&nbsp;<o=
:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The way I would think of establishing such m-hop ses=
sions would be fully automated with one knob per IGP adj. ex: &quot;bfd det=
ect-node-failure [max N]&quot; where local BFD subsystem would create N ses=
sions to IGP peers of the node we are to protect.
 LSDB has those peers so no new protocol extension&nbsp;is needed, perhaps =
even no new IETF draft is required :). N would be the limit of such session=
s in case the node under protection has say 10s of peers. Default could be =
perhaps even 1.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thx,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Robert.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:00 AM Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Shraddha, Robert and all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Regarding Robert's question:&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">I wonder if multi-hop IP BFD session with addresses used as /32 (or /1=
28) prefixes serving as Nose SIDs of R8 and R7 respectively could be used a=
s such a trigger by R7? Such a session
 would not respond to link failures, and I find it problematic to imagine a=
 scenario when it would be kept UP in the case of a real node failure.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Of course such a session would have to be slow enough not to react to =
link failures. But it still couks be much faster than IGP conversion IMHO.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">My 2c,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Sasha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Such<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-4605818059593462101ms-outloo=
k-mobile-signature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/cl=
icktime.symantec.com/3CfVQPtBYBAPbHUSngEVNQD6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Faka.ms*2F=
ghei36__;JSUlJQ!8WoA6RjC81c!Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1E=
brioDE0Vmgujy50EN$" target=3D"_blank">
Outlook for Android</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-4605818059593462101id-1769ab=
d3-4294-4e88-900e-ba1884f84918">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-4605818059593462101divRplyFw=
dMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong> spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf=
 of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</s=
pan></strong> Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:22<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</spa=
n></strong> Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</spa=
n></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rt=
gwg@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject:=
</span></strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nod=
es in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi&nbsp;Shraddha, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have one question to the document.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As you know the critical element for&nbsp;the effect=
ive protection of any scheme is the failure detection. On that your draft s=
eems to have just one little paragraph:&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Note that R7 activates the node-protecting backup path when it<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; detects that the link to R8 h=
as failed.&nbsp; R7 does not know that node<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; R8 has actually failed.&nbsp;=
 However, the node-protecting backup path is<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; computed assuming that the fa=
ilure of the link to R8 implies that R8<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; has failed.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Well IMO this is not enough. Specifically&nbsp;there=
 can be a lot of types of node failure when link is still up. Moreover ther=
e can be even running BFD across the link just fine when say fabric failure=
 occurs at R8.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">While this is not solely issue with this draft, it i=
s our common IETF failure to provide correct means of detecting end to end =
path or fragments of path failures (I am specifically not calling them segm=
ent here :).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example I propose that to effectively detect R8 =
failure as node failure which is the topic of your proposal a mechanism is =
clearly defined and includes bi-dir data plane probes send between R7-R9, R=
3-R7, R4-R7, R4-R9, R3-R9<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Many thx,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Robert.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 4:38 AM Shraddha Hegde &lt;s=
hraddha=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf..org</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">WG,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is the draft I pointed out that talks about sol=
utions for providing node-protection.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It covers Anycast case as well as keeping forwarding=
 plane longer.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clickt=
ime.symantec.com/375SW6TBGPi2mN7V9YeVWGg6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.or=
g*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-paths-05__;JSUlJSU!=
8WoA6RjC81c!Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0Vmgg0xmj_=
C$" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#0563C1">https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-paths-05</span></a><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Review and comments solicited.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Rgds<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
rtgwg mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtgwg@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/35M9j5=
zHTaSYRwVh5RP6xcB6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Fwww.ietf.org*2Fmailman*2Flistinfo*2F=
rtgwg__;JSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1=
EbrioDE0VmgvV9Y4sM$" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/rtgwg</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
<br>
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This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "rtgwg@ietf.org" <rtgwg@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Paths
Thread-Topic: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Paths
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Shraddha,
Lots of thanks for athe tesponse.

I probably did not express myself clearly enough. I will try to fix thst n=
ow, and I apologise in advance for a long email.

I have not been speaking about end-yo-end protecyion, only about local pro=
tection against failure of an intermediate (a.k.a. pinned) node of an SR p=
ath and, specifically, triggers for such protection. This context has been=
 actually defined by Robert in his original comment.

To the best of my understanding, Robert's concern was that failure of the =
link beteeen the pinned node of a SR path and its adjacency (the penultima=
te node of the Segment represented by the Node SID of the pinned node) is =
not a good enough indication of the pinned node failure.

I agree with this statement even if my understanding of a good indication =
differs from Robert's:
- I think that it is not sufficiently specific and therefore could result =
in flapping (local node protection activated and then released)
-Robert's concern, to the best of my understanding, was that it could miss=
 some failures (e.g. the Fabric failure).

Therefore I have suggested two possibilities for more specific and more rr=
liabke detection of failure of the pinned node by its adjacency:

1. Run a multi-hop IP BFD session between the peniltimate node ans the pin=
ned ones using prefixes acting as Node SIDs of this pair.  This wiuld igno=
re link failures but locally detect such node failurs as power-down or cra=
sh.

2.  Run S-BFD sessions to all other adjacencies of the pinned node using i=
n each case a list of two SIDs: the protected Adj-SID to the pinned node f=
ollowed by tge Node SID of the other adjacency, ans declare pinned node fa=
ilure when all these sessions fail. This would again ignore failure of the=
 link between the penultimate node and the pinned node but detect various =
real failures of the pinned node, e.g. failure of its Fabric.

In any case I think that it woyld make sense to separate the protection sc=
heme proposed in the draft from specific triggers for its activation simil=
ar to how this has been done in MPLS Egress Protection Framework draft.

My 2c.






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________________________________
From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019, 06:10
To: Alexander Vainshtein; Robert Raszuk
Cc: spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in S=
R Paths

Robert/Sasha,


S-BFD based mechanism is  head-end triggered protection. It is not a local=
 protection.
S-BFD mechanism is orthogonal to the mechanism described in this draft and=
 an operator can
choose what kind of protection makes more sense to his/her network.

In many cases, node-protecting backup path will be different from link-pro=
tecting/SRLG protecting backup path.
If you really want to use link-protecting backup path when link fails and =
node protecting backup path when node fails,
You will have to download both link protecting and node-protecting backup =
paths in FIB and detect which
failure really happened and have the ability in hardware to use appropriat=
e backup path. None of these
is in the scope of this document.

Rgds
Shraddha


From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019 8:15 PM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.ne=
t>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in S=
R Paths

Robert,
On the second thought, for the purpose of this draft (i.e. in the scope of=
 SR) it is possible to implement your suggestion by running S-BFD sessions=
 between R7 (as the initiator) and each other adjacency of R8  (acting as =
Reflectors) of a SR policy with list of two SIDs:
- protected adjacency between R7 and R8
- Node SID of the specific "other" adjacency  of R8.

If all these sessions fail, R7 can reliably consider R8 as failed.

I am not sure this would be much better than multi-hop IP BFD, and it look=
s much more complicated to me.


What do you think?




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oDE0VmgnYBhAbc%24>

________________________________
From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com<mailto:Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019, 13:15
To: Robert Raszuk; Shraddha Hegde
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@i=
etf.org>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in S=
R Paths


Robert,
Lots of thanks for a prompt response.

I respectfully disagree with your statement that BFD implementation  is us=
ually offloaded to the HW of the ingress line card.  I do not think this c=
an wor for MH BFD sessions because the ingress and egress line cards are n=
ot known in advance and change with the routing changes
A good  multi-hop BFD implementation=20should be ready to overcome this.. =
There are many ways to achieve that. A naive implementation that runs in S=
W of the control card is also possible of course. And they would sensd and=
 receive packets

My 2c.
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ybRv6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Faka.ms%2Fghei=
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oDE0VmgnYBhAbc%24>

________________________________
From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019, 12:37
To: Alexander Vainshtein; Shraddha Hegde
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@i=
etf.org>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in S=
R Paths


Hi Sasha,

On the surface your suggestion may look cool - but if you zoom in - I do n=
ot think it will work in practice.

See - one of the biggest value of BFD is its offload to line card's hardwa=
re. And in most cases it is ingress line card to the box. So if you instru=
ct such hardware to respond to SID address loopback you still did not gain=
 much in terms of detection router's fabric failures, remote LC failure or=
 control plane issues which could soon result in box failure. The catalogu=
e of router failures is of course much more colorful.

If you ask BFD to be responded by RP/RE it no longer has the BFD advantage=
.

IMHO the best way to detect node failure is actually to send the probes *a=
cross* the node under test to its peers.

The way I would think of establishing such m-hop sessions would be fully a=
utomated with one knob per IGP adj. ex: "bfd detect-node-failure [max N]" =
where local BFD subsystem would create N sessions to IGP peers of the node=
 we are to protect. LSDB has those peers so no new protocol extension is n=
eeded, perhaps even no new IETF draft is required :). N would be the limit=
 of such sessions in case the node under protection has say 10s of peers. =
Default could be perhaps even 1.

Thx,
Robert.


On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:00 AM Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtei=
n@ecitele.com<mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
Shraddha, Robert and all,
Regarding Robert's question:
I wonder if multi-hop IP BFD session with addresses used as /32 (or /128) =
prefixes serving as Nose SIDs of R8 and R7 respectively could be used as s=
uch a trigger by R7? Such a session would not respond to link failures, an=
d I find it problematic to imagine a scenario when it would be kept UP in =
the case of a real node failure.

Of course such a session would have to be slow enough not to react to link=
 failures. But it still couks be much faster than IGP conversion IMHO.

My 2c,
Sasha

Such


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antec.com%2F3CfVQPtBYBAPbHUSngEVNQD6H2%3Fu%3Dhttps%2A3A%2A2F%2A2Faka.ms%2A=
2Fghei36__%3BJSUlJQ%218WoA6RjC81c%21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc=
9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0Vmgujy50EN%24>

________________________________
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on =
behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:22
To: Shraddha Hegde
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@i=
etf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in S=
R Paths

Hi Shraddha,

I have one question to the document.

As you know the critical element for the effective protection of any schem=
e is the failure detection. On that your draft seems to have just one litt=
le paragraph:


   Note that R7 activates the node-protecting backup path when it

   detects that the link to R8 has failed.  R7 does not know that node

   R8 has actually failed.  However, the node-protecting backup path is

   computed assuming that the failure of the link to R8 implies that R8

   has failed.

Well IMO this is not enough. Specifically there can be a lot of types of n=
ode failure when link is still up. Moreover there can be even running BFD =
across the link just fine when say fabric failure occurs at R8.

While this is not solely issue with this draft, it is our common IETF fail=
ure to provide correct means of detecting end to end path or fragments of =
path failures (I am specifically not calling them segment here :).

For example I propose that to effectively detect R8 failure as node failur=
e which is the topic of your proposal a mechanism is clearly defined and i=
ncludes bi-dir data plane probes send between R7-R9, R3-R7, R4-R7, R4-R9, =
R3-R9

Many thx,
Robert.


On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 4:38 AM Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=3D40juniper.net@d=
marc.ietf..org<mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
WG,

This is the draft I pointed out that talks about solutions for providing n=
ode-protection.
It covers Anycast case as well as keeping forwarding plane longer.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-p=
aths-05<https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HvrzHXwAou2JruETj6jcyF6H2?u=3Dhttp=
s%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fclicktime.symantec.com%2F375S=
W6TBGPi2mN7V9YeVWGg6H2%3Fu%3Dhttps%2A3A%2A2F%2A2Ftools.ietf.org%2A2Fhtml%2=
A2Fdraft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-paths-05__%3BJSUlJSU%218Wo=
A6RjC81c%21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0Vmgg0xmj_=
C%24>

Review and comments solicited.

Rgds
Shraddha

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<body>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
Shraddha,</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
Lots of thanks for athe tesponse.</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
I probably did not express myself clearly enough. I will try to fix thst n=
ow, and I apologise in advance for a long email.</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
I have not been speaking about end-yo-end protecyion, only about local pro=
tection against failure of an intermediate (a.k.a. pinned) node of an SR p=
ath and, specifically, triggers for such protection. This context has been=
 actually defined by Robert in his
 original comment.</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
To the best of my understanding, Robert's concern was that failure of the =
link beteeen the pinned node of a SR path and its adjacency (the penultima=
te node of the Segment represented by the Node SID of the pinned node) is =
not a good enough indication of the
 pinned node failure.&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
I agree with this statement even if my understanding of a good indication =
differs from Robert's:</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
- I think that it is not sufficiently specific and therefore could result =
in flapping (local node protection activated and then released)</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
-Robert's concern, to the best of my understanding, was that it could miss=
 some failures (e.g. the Fabric failure).</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
Therefore I have suggested two possibilities for more specific and more rr=
liabke detection of failure of the pinned node by its adjacency:</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
1. Run a multi-hop IP BFD session between the peniltimate node ans the pin=
ned ones using prefixes acting as Node SIDs of this pair.&nbsp; This wiuld=
 ignore link failures but locally detect such node failurs as power-down o=
r crash.</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
2.&nbsp; Run S-BFD sessions to all other adjacencies of the pinned node us=
ing in each case a list of two SIDs: the protected Adj-SID to the pinned n=
ode followed by tge Node SID of the other adjacency, ans declare pinned no=
de failure when all these sessions fail.
 This would again ignore failure of the link between the penultimate node =
and the pinned node but detect various real failures of the pinned node, e=
.g. failure of its Fabric.</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
In any case I think that it woyld make sense to separate the protection sc=
heme proposed in the draft from specific triggers for its activation simil=
ar to how this has been done in MPLS Egress Protection Framework draft.</d=
iv>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
My 2c.</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
; text-align: left;" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
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<br>
</div>
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<br>
</div>
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<br>
</div>
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Get <a href=3D"https://aka.ms/ghei36" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">Outlook fo=
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<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg"><strong>From:</strong> Shraddha Hegde &lt;shradd=
ha@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Monday, December 2, 2019, 06:10<br>
<strong>To:</strong> Alexander Vainshtein; Robert Raszuk<br>
<strong>Cc:</strong> spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<br>=

<strong>Subject:</strong> RE: [spring] Draft for Node protection of interm=
ediate nodes in SR Paths<br>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Robert/Sasha,</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">S-BFD based mechanism is &nbsp;head-end triggered p=
rotection. It is not a local protection.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">S-BFD mechanism is orthogonal to the mechanism desc=
ribed in this draft and an operator can
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">choose what kind of protection makes more sense to =
his/her network.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In many cases, node-protecting backup path will be =
different from link-protecting/SRLG protecting backup path.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you really want to use link-protecting backup pa=
th when link fails and node protecting backup path when node fails,</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You will have to download both link protecting and =
node-protecting backup paths in FIB and detect which</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">failure really happened and have the ability in har=
dware to use appropriate backup path. None of these</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is in the scope of this document.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Rgds</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Shraddha</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vai=
nshtein@ecitele.com&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 23, 2019 8:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;; Shraddha Hegde &lt;shr=
addha@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nod=
es in SR Paths</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">On the second thought, for the purpose of this draft (i.=
e. in the scope of SR) it is possible to implement your suggestion by runn=
ing S-BFD sessions between R7 (as the initiator)
 and each other adjacency of R8&nbsp; (acting as Reflectors) of a SR polic=
y with list of two SIDs:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">- protected adjacency between R7 and R8</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">- Node SID of the specific &quot;other&quot; adjacency&n=
bsp; of R8.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">If all these sessions fail, R7 can reliably consider R8 =
as failed.&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">I am not sure this would be much better than multi-hop I=
P BFD, and it looks much more complicated to me.&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">What do you think?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div id=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Get <a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3MR8y=
7CviGLkS3kzg1UybRv6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2=
Faka.ms%2Fghei36__%3B%218WoA6RjC81c%21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_Ejx=
Lc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0VmgnYBhAbc%24" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">
Outlook for Android</a></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-74ed52be-d7d4-4ced-94d3-671c6f1b4e71">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 13pt; font-family: Arial,=
 sans-serif; color: black;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">Alexand=
er.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</=
span></strong> Saturday, November 23, 2019, 13:15<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</sp=
an></strong> Robert Raszuk; Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</sp=
an></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">=

spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" data-ogsc=3D"" styl=
e=3D"">rtgwg@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">rtg-bfd@ietf=
.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject=
:</span></strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate n=
odes in SR Paths</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">Lots of thanks for a prompt response.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">I respectfully disagree with your statement that BFD imp=
lementation&nbsp; is usually offloaded to the HW of the ingress line card.=
&nbsp; I do not think this can wor for MH BFD sessions
 because the ingress and egress line cards are not known in advance and ch=
ange with the routing changes</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">A good&nbsp; multi-hop BFD implementation should be read=
y to overcome this.. There are many ways to achieve that. A naive implemen=
tation that runs in SW of the control card is
 also possible of course. And they would sensd and receive packets&nbsp;</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">My 2c.</span></p>
<div id=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Get <a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3MR8y=
7CviGLkS3kzg1UybRv6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2=
Faka.ms%2Fghei36__%3B%218WoA6RjC81c%21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_Ejx=
Lc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0VmgnYBhAbc%24" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">
Outlook for Android</a></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-489fbd3c-6e9f-45dd-96d9-cf663b19aa9f">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 13pt; font-family: Arial,=
 sans-serif; color: black;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
robert@raszuk.net" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>=

<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</=
span></strong> Saturday, November 23, 2019, 12:37<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</sp=
an></strong> Alexander Vainshtein; Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</sp=
an></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">=

spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" data-ogsc=3D"" styl=
e=3D"">rtgwg@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">rtg-bfd@ietf=
.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject=
:</span></strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate n=
odes in SR Paths</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha, </p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On the surface your suggestion may look cool - but =
if you zoom in - I do not think it will work in practice.&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See - one of the biggest value of BFD is its offloa=
d to line card's hardware. And in most cases it is ingress line card to th=
e box. So if you instruct such hardware to respond to SID address loopback=
 you still did not gain much in terms
 of detection router's fabric failures, remote LC failure or control&nbsp;=
plane issues which could soon result in box failure. The catalogue of rout=
er failures is of course much more colorful.&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you ask BFD to be responded by RP/RE it no longe=
r has the BFD advantage.&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMHO the best way to detect node failure&nbsp;is ac=
tually to send the probes *across* the node under test to its peers.&nbsp;=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The way I would think of establishing such m-hop se=
ssions would be fully automated with one knob per IGP adj. ex: &quot;bfd d=
etect-node-failure [max N]&quot; where local BFD subsystem would create N =
sessions to IGP peers of the node we are to protect.
 LSDB has those peers so no new protocol extension&nbsp;is needed, perhaps=
 even no new IETF draft is required :). N would be the limit of such sessi=
ons in case the node under protection has say 10s of peers. Default could =
be perhaps even 1.&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thx,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Robert.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:00 AM Alexander Vainshte=
in &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blan=
k" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">Shraddha, Robert and all,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">Regarding Robert's question:&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">I wonder if multi-hop IP BFD session with addresses used=
 as /32 (or /128) prefixes serving as Nose SIDs of R8 and R7 respectively =
could be used as such a trigger by R7? Such
 a session would not respond to link failures, and I find it problematic t=
o imagine a scenario when it would be kept UP in the case of a real node f=
ailure.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">Of course such a session would have to be slow enough no=
t to react to link failures. But it still couks be much faster than IGP co=
nversion IMHO.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">My 2c,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">Sasha</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">Such</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(33, 33, 33);">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-4605818059593462101ms-outlo=
ok-mobile-signature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Get <a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3NbK7=
2q2ca668aVyMaT7Esn6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2=
Fclicktime.symantec.com%2F3CfVQPtBYBAPbHUSngEVNQD6H2%3Fu%3Dhttps%2A3A%2A2F=
%2A2Faka.ms%2A2Fghei36__%3BJSUlJQ%218WoA6RjC81c%21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI=
002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0Vmgujy50EN%24" target=3D"_blank" data-ogsc=3D=
"" style=3D"">
Outlook for Android</a></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-4605818059593462101id-1769a=
bd3-4294-4e88-900e-ba1884f84918">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 13pt; font-family: Arial,=
 sans-serif; color: black;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-4605818059593462101divRplyF=
wdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong> spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">spring-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rober=
t@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">robert@raszuk.ne=
t</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</=
span></strong> Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:22<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</sp=
an></strong> Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</sp=
an></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" data-ogs=
c=3D"" style=3D"">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" d=
ata-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">
rtgwg@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject=
:</span></strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate n=
odes in SR Paths</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi&nbsp;Shraddha, </p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have one question to the document.&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As you know the critical element for&nbsp;the effec=
tive protection of any scheme is the failure detection. On that your draft=
 seems to have just one little paragraph:&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color: black;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; Note that R7 activates the node-protecting backup path when it</span></p=
re>
<pre><span style=3D"color: black;">&nbsp;&nbsp; detects that the link to R=
8 has failed.&nbsp; R7 does not know that node</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color: black;">&nbsp;&nbsp; R8 has actually failed.&nb=
sp; However, the node-protecting backup path is</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color: black;">&nbsp;&nbsp; computed=20assuming that t=
he failure of the link to R8 implies that R8</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color: black;">&nbsp;&nbsp; has failed.</span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Well IMO this is not enough. Specifically&nbsp;ther=
e can be a lot of types of node failure when link is still up. Moreover th=
ere can be even running BFD across the link just fine when say fabric fail=
ure occurs at R8.&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">While this is not solely issue with this draft, it =
is our common IETF failure to provide correct means of detecting end to en=
d path or fragments of path failures (I am specifically not calling them s=
egment here :).&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example I propose that to effectively detect R8=
 failure as node failure which is the topic of your proposal a mechanism i=
s clearly defined and includes bi-dir data plane probes send between R7-R9=
, R3-R7, R4-R7, R4-R9, R3-R9</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Many thx,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Robert.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 4:38 AM Shraddha Hegde &lt;=
shraddha=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf..org</a>&gt; wrote:<=
/p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">WG,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is the draft I pointed out that talks about so=
lutions for providing node-protection.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It covers Anycast case as well as keeping forwardin=
g plane longer.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3HvrzHXwA=
ou2JruETj6jcyF6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fcli=
cktime.symantec.com%2F375SW6TBGPi2mN7V9YeVWGg6H2%3Fu%3Dhttps%2A3A%2A2F%2A2=
Ftools.ietf.org%2A2Fhtml%2A2Fdraft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-=
paths-05__%3BJSUlJSU%218WoA6RjC81c%21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxL=
c9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0Vmgg0xmj_C%24" target=3D"_blank" data-ogsc=3D"" style=3D"=
"><span style=3D"color: rgb(5, 99, 193);">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draf=
t-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-paths-05</span></a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Review and comments solicited.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Rgds</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Shraddha</p>
</div>
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:14:15 +0100
Message-ID: <CAOj+MMEZR8V8wyUu92Rmm_26ojqnqnpM9wH67A04EbEOwHRxDw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Paths
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "rtgwg@ietf.org" <rtgwg@ietf.org>
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I encourage you to read those two documents:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-akiya-bfd-seamless-sr-04

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ali-spring-bfd-sr-policy-02

Cheers,
R.


On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:06 AM Andrew Alston <
Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

> Robert =E2=80=93 actually I disagree.
>
>
>
> Because to protect the paths you need the node protection on intermediate
> nodes due to lack of state =E2=80=93 the headend has no way to actually p=
rotect an
> end to end path outside of S-BFD steered over the path to test end to end
> reachability and if you get an intermediate node-failure on the path you
> could run into a problem =F0=9F=98=8A
>
>
>
> As per draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-05 a path is valid when:
>
>
>
> It is empty
>
> Its weight is 0
>
> It=E2=80=99s headend is unable to perform path resolution for the first S=
ID into
> one or more outgoing interface(s) and next-hop(s)
>
> The headend is unable to perform SID resolution for any non-first SID of
> type C through K into an MPLS label or an SRv6 SID
>
> The headend verification fails for any SID for which verification has bee=
n
> explicitly requested
>
>
>
> Effectively =E2=80=93 as of right now =E2=80=93 if you read that draft =
=E2=80=93 there is no
> mechanism to verify path nodes if you are doing paths based on type A SID=
=E2=80=99s
> =E2=80=93 the only way right now to do that =E2=80=93 is using S-BFD =E2=
=80=93 however this draft
> if my understanding is correct =E2=80=93 would allow for node protection =
that would
> in effect protect the paths injected.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, 2 December 2019 12:50
> *To:* Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
> *Cc:* Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; Alexander
> Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>; spring@ietf.org;
> rtg-bfd@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes
> in SR Paths
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 10:28 AM Andrew Alston <
> Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Currently the biggest issue that I see with S-BFD based protection =E2=80=
=93 which
> is something we use in production is as follows:
>
>
>
> Unless I=E2=80=99m mistaken =E2=80=93 there is absolutely no way to tie S=
-BFD based
> protection with BGP injected SR-TE pathing
>
>
>
>
>
> Well I am not sure what you call " BGP injected SR-TE pathing" but if you
> are looking for validation of BGP paths that has been supported by some
> vendors for a loooong time. Hint: you allocate different next hop for you=
r
> SR-TE endpoints and voila.
>
>
>
> Btw - not an ietf topic, but an implementation request / vendor's feature=
.
>
>
>
> Besides, since you are talking about headend what you are describing is
> path protection ... this draft talks about node protection which is a
> completely different thing.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> r.
>
>

--00000000000013b3950598b5d82d
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>I encourage=C2=A0you to read those two=
=C2=A0documents:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org=
/html/draft-akiya-bfd-seamless-sr-04">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-aki=
ya-bfd-seamless-sr-04</a>=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ali-spring-bfd-sr-policy-02">https://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-ali-spring-bfd-sr-policy-02</a>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0<br></=
div><div>Cheers,</div><div>R.=C2=A0<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, D=
ec 2, 2019 at 11:06 AM Andrew Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@li=
quidtelecom.com">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"en-KE">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-3905520662665579659WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Robert =E2=80=93 actually I dis=
agree.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Because to protect the paths yo=
u need the node protection on intermediate nodes due to lack of state =E2=
=80=93 the headend has no way to actually protect an end to end path outsid=
e of S-BFD
 steered over the path to test end to end reachability and if you get an in=
termediate node-failure on the path you could run into a problem
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;=
,sans-serif">=F0=9F=98=8A</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">As per draft-ietf-spring-segmen=
t-routing-policy-05 a path is valid when:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">It is empty<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Its weight is 0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">It=E2=80=99s headend is unable =
to perform path resolution for the first SID into one or more outgoing inte=
rface(s) and next-hop(s)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The headend is unable to perfor=
m SID resolution for any non-first SID of type C through K into an MPLS lab=
el or an SRv6 SID<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The headend verification fails =
for any SID for which verification has been explicitly requested<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Effectively =E2=80=93 as of rig=
ht now =E2=80=93 if you read that draft =E2=80=93 there is no mechanism to =
verify path nodes if you are doing paths based on type A SID=E2=80=99s =E2=
=80=93 the only way right now to do that =E2=80=93
 is using S-BFD =E2=80=93 however this draft if my understanding is correct=
 =E2=80=93 would allow for node protection that would in effect protect the=
 paths injected.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Andrew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"en-KE"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=
=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 2 December 2019 12:50<br>
<b>To:</b> Andrew Alston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.=
com" target=3D"_blank">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;shraddha=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dm=
arc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;; Alexa=
nder Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:=
spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:r=
tg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:=
rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtgwg@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate node=
s in SR Paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 10:28 AM Andrew Alston &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target=3D"_blank">Andrew.A=
lston@liquidtelecom.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Currently the biggest issue tha=
t I see with S-BFD based protection =E2=80=93 which is something we use in =
production is as follows:</span><span lang=3D"en-KE"><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"en-K=
E"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Unless I=E2=80=99m mistaken =E2=
=80=93 there is absolutely no way to tie S-BFD based protection with BGP in=
jected SR-TE pathing</span><span lang=3D"en-KE"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Well I am not sure what you call &quot; BGP injected=
 SR-TE pathing&quot; but if you are looking for validation of BGP paths tha=
t has been supported by some vendors for a loooong time. Hint: you allocate=
 different next hop for your SR-TE endpoints
 and voila.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Btw - not an ietf topic, but an implementation reque=
st / vendor&#39;s feature.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Besides, since you are talking about headend what yo=
u are describing is path protection ... this draft talks about node protect=
ion which is a completely different thing.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">r.<br></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none=
;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><di=
v style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left=
:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
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From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "rtgwg@ietf.org" <rtgwg@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Subject: RE: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Paths
Thread-Topic: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Paths
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:24:01 +0000
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Sasha,

We are in agreement on separating the trigger from the protection mechanism=
.

> In any case I think that it woyld make sense to separate the protection s=
cheme proposed in the draft from specific triggers for its activation >simi=
lar to how this has been done in MPLS Egress Protection Framework draft.

I'll add text in the next revision for this.

Rgds
Shraddha


From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 12:24 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk <rober=
t@raszuk.net>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Shraddha,
Lots of thanks for athe tesponse.

I probably did not express myself clearly enough. I will try to fix thst no=
w, and I apologise in advance for a long email.

I have not been speaking about end-yo-end protecyion, only about local prot=
ection against failure of an intermediate (a.k.a. pinned) node of an SR pat=
h and, specifically, triggers for such protection. This context has been ac=
tually defined by Robert in his original comment.

To the best of my understanding, Robert's concern was that failure of the l=
ink beteeen the pinned node of a SR path and its adjacency (the penultimate=
 node of the Segment represented by the Node SID of the pinned node) is not=
 a good enough indication of the pinned node failure.

I agree with this statement even if my understanding of a good indication d=
iffers from Robert's:
- I think that it is not sufficiently specific and therefore could result i=
n flapping (local node protection activated and then released)
-Robert's concern, to the best of my understanding, was that it could miss =
some failures (e.g. the Fabric failure).

Therefore I have suggested two possibilities for more specific and more rrl=
iabke detection of failure of the pinned node by its adjacency:

1. Run a multi-hop IP BFD session between the peniltimate node ans the pinn=
ed ones using prefixes acting as Node SIDs of this pair.  This wiuld ignore=
 link failures but locally detect such node failurs as power-down or crash.

2.  Run S-BFD sessions to all other adjacencies of the pinned node using in=
 each case a list of two SIDs: the protected Adj-SID to the pinned node fol=
lowed by tge Node SID of the other adjacency, ans declare pinned node failu=
re when all these sessions fail. This would again ignore failure of the lin=
k between the penultimate node and the pinned node but detect various real =
failures of the pinned node, e.g. failure of its Fabric.

In any case I think that it woyld make sense to separate the protection sch=
eme proposed in the draft from specific triggers for its activation similar=
 to how this has been done in MPLS Egress Protection Framework draft.

My 2c.






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IH$>

________________________________
From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019, 06:10
To: Alexander Vainshtein; Robert Raszuk
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths


Robert/Sasha,


S-BFD based mechanism is  head-end triggered protection. It is not a local =
protection.
S-BFD mechanism is orthogonal to the mechanism described in this draft and =
an operator can
choose what kind of protection makes more sense to his/her network.

In many cases, node-protecting backup path will be different from link-prot=
ecting/SRLG protecting backup path.
If you really want to use link-protecting backup path when link fails and n=
ode protecting backup path when node fails,
You will have to download both link protecting and node-protecting backup p=
aths in FIB and detect which
failure really happened and have the ability in hardware to use appropriate=
 backup path. None of these
is in the scope of this document.

Rgds
Shraddha


From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com<mailto:Alexand=
er.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019 8:15 PM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>; Shraddha H=
egde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Robert,
On the second thought, for the purpose of this draft (i.e. in the scope of =
SR) it is possible to implement your suggestion by running S-BFD sessions b=
etween R7 (as the initiator) and each other adjacency of R8  (acting as Ref=
lectors) of a SR policy with list of two SIDs:
- protected adjacency between R7 and R8
- Node SID of the specific "other" adjacency  of R8.

If all these sessions fail, R7 can reliably consider R8 as failed.

I am not sure this would be much better than multi-hop IP BFD, and it looks=
 much more complicated to me.


What do you think?




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________________________________
From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com<mailto:Alexand=
er.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019, 13:15
To: Robert Raszuk; Shraddha Hegde
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Robert,
Lots of thanks for a prompt response.

I respectfully disagree with your statement that BFD implementation  is usu=
ally offloaded to the HW of the ingress line card.  I do not think this can=
 wor for MH BFD sessions because the ingress and egress line cards are not =
known in advance and change with the routing changes
A good  multi-hop BFD implementation should be ready to overcome this.. The=
re are many ways to achieve that. A naive implementation that runs in SW of=
 the control card is also possible of course. And they would sensd and rece=
ive packets

My 2c.
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hYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH1YVygZC$>

________________________________
From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019, 12:37
To: Alexander Vainshtein; Shraddha Hegde
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Hi Sasha,

On the surface your suggestion may look cool - but if you zoom in - I do no=
t think it will work in practice.

See - one of the biggest value of BFD is its offload to line card's hardwar=
e. And in most cases it is ingress line card to the box. So if you instruct=
 such hardware to respond to SID address loopback you still did not gain mu=
ch in terms of detection router's fabric failures, remote LC failure or con=
trol plane issues which could soon result in box failure. The catalogue of =
router failures is of course much more colorful.

If you ask BFD to be responded by RP/RE it no longer has the BFD advantage.

IMHO the best way to detect node failure is actually to send the probes *ac=
ross* the node under test to its peers.

The way I would think of establishing such m-hop sessions would be fully au=
tomated with one knob per IGP adj. ex: "bfd detect-node-failure [max N]" wh=
ere local BFD subsystem would create N sessions to IGP peers of the node we=
 are to protect. LSDB has those peers so no new protocol extension is neede=
d, perhaps even no new IETF draft is required :). N would be the limit of s=
uch sessions in case the node under protection has say 10s of peers. Defaul=
t could be perhaps even 1.

Thx,
Robert.


On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:00 AM Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com<mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
Shraddha, Robert and all,
Regarding Robert's question:
I wonder if multi-hop IP BFD session with addresses used as /32 (or /128) p=
refixes serving as Nose SIDs of R8 and R7 respectively could be used as suc=
h a trigger by R7? Such a session would not respond to link failures, and I=
 find it problematic to imagine a scenario when it would be kept UP in the =
case of a real node failure.

Of course such a session would have to be slow enough not to react to link =
failures. But it still couks be much faster than IGP conversion IMHO.

My 2c,
Sasha

Such


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q73pAh$>

________________________________
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on b=
ehalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:22
To: Shraddha Hegde
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Hi Shraddha,

I have one question to the document.

As you know the critical element for the effective protection of any scheme=
 is the failure detection. On that your draft seems to have just one little=
 paragraph:


   Note that R7 activates the node-protecting backup path when it

   detects that the link to R8 has failed.  R7 does not know that node

   R8 has actually failed.  However, the node-protecting backup path is

   computed assuming that the failure of the link to R8 implies that R8

   has failed.

Well IMO this is not enough. Specifically there can be a lot of types of no=
de failure when link is still up. Moreover there can be even running BFD ac=
ross the link just fine when say fabric failure occurs at R8.

While this is not solely issue with this draft, it is our common IETF failu=
re to provide correct means of detecting end to end path or fragments of pa=
th failures (I am specifically not calling them segment here :).

For example I propose that to effectively detect R8 failure as node failure=
 which is the topic of your proposal a mechanism is clearly defined and inc=
ludes bi-dir data plane probes send between R7-R9, R3-R7, R4-R7, R4-R9, R3-=
R9

Many thx,
Robert.


On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 4:38 AM Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=3D40juniper.net@dm=
arc.ietf..org<mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
WG,

This is the draft I pointed out that talks about solutions for providing no=
de-protection.
It covers Anycast case as well as keeping forwarding plane longer.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-pa=
ths-05<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/3HvrzHXwAo=
u2JruETj6jcyF6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fclick=
time.symantec.com*2F375SW6TBGPi2mN7V9YeVWGg6H2*3Fu*3Dhttps*2A3A*2A2F*2A2Fto=
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s-05__*3BJSUlJSU*218WoA6RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA=
6sJ1EbrioDE0Vmgg0xmj_C*24__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0q=
hoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH9RfbOqT$>

Review and comments solicited.

Rgds
Shraddha

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sasha,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We are in agreement on separating the trigger from t=
he protection mechanism.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:blac=
k">&gt;</span><span style=3D"color:#212121"> In any case I think that it wo=
yld make sense to separate the protection scheme proposed in the draft from=
 specific triggers for its activation &gt;similar
 to how this has been done in MPLS Egress Protection Framework draft.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">I&#8217;ll add text in the next revision for this.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vain=
shtein@ecitele.com&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 2, 2019 12:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;shraddha@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk=
 &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate node=
s in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Shraddha,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Lots of thanks for athe tesponse.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">I probably did not express myself clearly enough. I will try to fix th=
st now, and I apologise in advance for a long email.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">I have not been speaking about end-yo-end protecyion, only about local=
 protection against failure of an intermediate (a.k.a. pinned) node of an S=
R path and, specifically, triggers for
 such protection. This context has been actually defined by Robert in his o=
riginal comment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">To the best of my understanding, Robert's concern was that failure of =
the link beteeen the pinned node of a SR path and its adjacency (the penult=
imate node of the Segment represented
 by the Node SID of the pinned node) is not a good enough indication of the=
 pinned node failure.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">I agree with this statement even if my understanding of a good indicat=
ion differs from Robert's:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">- I think that it is not sufficiently specific and therefore could res=
ult in flapping (local node protection activated and then released)<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">-Robert's concern, to the best of my understanding, was that it could =
miss some failures (e.g. the Fabric failure).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Therefore I have suggested two possibilities for more specific and mor=
e rrliabke detection of failure of the pinned node by its adjacency:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">1. Run a multi-hop IP BFD session between the peniltimate node ans the=
 pinned ones using prefixes acting as Node SIDs of this pair.&nbsp; This wi=
uld ignore link failures but locally detect
 such node failurs as power-down or crash.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">2.&nbsp; Run S-BFD sessions to all other adjacencies of the pinned nod=
e using in each case a list of two SIDs: the protected Adj-SID to the pinne=
d node followed by tge Node SID of the other
 adjacency, ans declare pinned node failure when all these sessions fail. T=
his would again ignore failure of the link between the penultimate node and=
 the pinned node but detect various real failures of the pinned node, e.g. =
failure of its Fabric.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">In any case I think that it woyld make sense to separate the protectio=
n scheme proposed in the draft from specific triggers for its activation si=
milar to how this has been done in MPLS
 Egress Protection Framework draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">My 2c.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/ak=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
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</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong> Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
hraddha@juniper.net">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</s=
pan></strong> Monday, December 2, 2019, 06:10<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</spa=
n></strong> Alexander Vainshtein; Robert Raszuk<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</spa=
n></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org">rtgwg@ietf.org</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org">
rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject:=
</span></strong> RE: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nod=
es in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Robert/Sasha,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">S-BFD based mechanism is &nbsp;head-end triggered pr=
otection. It is not a local protection.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">S-BFD mechanism is orthogonal to the mechanism descr=
ibed in this draft and an operator can
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">choose what kind of protection makes more sense to h=
is/her network.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In many cases, node-protecting backup path will be d=
ifferent from link-protecting/SRLG protecting backup path.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you really want to use link-protecting backup pat=
h when link fails and node protecting backup path when node fails,<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You will have to download both link protecting and n=
ode-protecting backup paths in FIB and detect which<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">failure really happened and have the ability in hard=
ware to use appropriate backup path. None of these<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is in the scope of this document.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Rgds<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&=
gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 23, 2019 8:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@ra=
szuk.net</a>&gt;; Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net=
">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org">
rtgwg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate node=
s in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Robert,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">On the second thought, for the purpose of this draft (i.e. in the scop=
e of SR) it is possible to implement your suggestion by running S-BFD sessi=
ons between R7 (as the initiator) and
 each other adjacency of R8&nbsp; (acting as Reflectors) of a SR policy wit=
h list of two SIDs:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">- protected adjacency between R7 and R8</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">- Node SID of the specific &quot;other&quot; adjacency&nbsp; of R8.</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">If all these sessions fail, R7 can reliably consider R8 as failed.&nbs=
p;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">I am not sure this would be much better than multi-hop IP BFD, and it =
looks much more complicated to me.&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">What do you think?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
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<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</s=
pan></strong> Saturday, November 23, 2019, 13:15<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</spa=
n></strong> Robert Raszuk; Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</spa=
n></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org">rtgwg@ietf.org</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org">
rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject:=
</span></strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nod=
es in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Robert,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Lots of thanks for a prompt response.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">I respectfully disagree with your statement that BFD implementation&nb=
sp; is usually offloaded to the HW of the ingress line card.&nbsp; I do not=
 think this can wor for MH BFD sessions because
 the ingress and egress line cards are not known in advance and change with=
 the routing changes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">A good&nbsp; multi-hop BFD implementation should be ready to overcome =
this.. There are many ways to achieve that. A naive implementation that run=
s in SW of the control card is also possible
 of course. And they would sensd and receive packets&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">My 2c.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/cl=
icktime.symantec.com/3MR8y7CviGLkS3kzg1UybRv6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefens=
e.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Faka.ms*2Fghei36__*3B*218WoA6RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeT=
OyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0VmgnYBhAbc*24__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!=
8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH1YVygZ=
C$">
Outlook for Android</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-489fbd3c-6e9f-45dd-96d9-cf663b19aa9f">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ro=
bert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</s=
pan></strong> Saturday, November 23, 2019, 12:37<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</spa=
n></strong> Alexander Vainshtein; Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</spa=
n></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org">rtgwg@ietf.org</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org">
rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject:=
</span></strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nod=
es in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On the surface your suggestion may look cool - but i=
f you zoom in - I do not think it will work in practice.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See - one of the biggest value of BFD is its offload=
 to line card's hardware. And in most cases it is ingress line card to the =
box. So if you instruct such hardware to respond to SID address loopback yo=
u still did not gain much in terms
 of detection router's fabric failures, remote LC failure or control&nbsp;p=
lane issues which could soon result in box failure. The catalogue of router=
 failures is of course much more colorful.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you ask BFD to be responded by RP/RE it no longer=
 has the BFD advantage.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMHO the best way to detect node failure&nbsp;is act=
ually to send the probes *across* the node under test to its peers.&nbsp;<o=
:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The way I would think of establishing such m-hop ses=
sions would be fully automated with one knob per IGP adj. ex: &quot;bfd det=
ect-node-failure [max N]&quot; where local BFD subsystem would create N ses=
sions to IGP peers of the node we are to protect.
 LSDB has those peers so no new protocol extension&nbsp;is needed, perhaps =
even no new IETF draft is required :). N would be the limit of such session=
s in case the node under protection has say 10s of peers. Default could be =
perhaps even 1.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thx,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Robert.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:00 AM Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Shraddha, Robert and all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Regarding Robert's question:&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">I wonder if multi-hop IP BFD session with addresses used as /32 (or /1=
28) prefixes serving as Nose SIDs of R8 and R7 respectively could be used a=
s such a trigger by R7? Such a session
 would not respond to link failures, and I find it problematic to imagine a=
 scenario when it would be kept UP in the case of a real node failure.</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Of course such a session would have to be slow enough not to react to =
link failures. But it still couks be much faster than IGP conversion IMHO.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">My 2c,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Sasha</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">Such</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#212=
121">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-4605818059593462101ms-outloo=
k-mobile-signature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/cl=
icktime.symantec.com/3NbK72q2ca668aVyMaT7Esn6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefens=
e.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fclicktime.symantec.com*2F3CfVQPtBYBAPbHUSngEVNQD6=
H2*3Fu*3Dhttps*2A3A*2A2F*2A2Faka.ms*2A2Fghei36__*3BJSUlJQ*218WoA6RjC81c*21X=
o-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0Vmgujy50EN*24__;JSUlJS=
UlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5=
ktZrPekfTDhLH7q73pAh$" target=3D"_blank">
Outlook for Android</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-4605818059593462101id-1769ab=
d3-4294-4e88-900e-ba1884f84918">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-4605818059593462101divRplyFw=
dMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong> spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf=
 of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</s=
pan></strong> Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:22<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</spa=
n></strong> Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</spa=
n></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rt=
gwg@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject:=
</span></strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nod=
es in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi&nbsp;Shraddha, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have one question to the document.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As you know the critical element for&nbsp;the effect=
ive protection of any scheme is the failure detection. On that your draft s=
eems to have just one little paragraph:&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; N=
ote that R7 activates the node-protecting backup path when it</span><o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; detects that the link to R8 h=
as failed.&nbsp; R7 does not know that node</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; R8 has actually failed.&nbsp;=
 However, the node-protecting backup path is</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; computed assuming that the fa=
ilure of the link to R8 implies that R8</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; has failed.</span><o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Well IMO this is not enough. Specifically&nbsp;there=
 can be a lot of types of node failure when link is still up. Moreover ther=
e can be even running BFD across the link just fine when say fabric failure=
 occurs at R8.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">While this is not solely issue with this draft, it i=
s our common IETF failure to provide correct means of detecting end to end =
path or fragments of path failures (I am specifically not calling them segm=
ent here :).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example I propose that to effectively detect R8 =
failure as node failure which is the topic of your proposal a mechanism is =
clearly defined and includes bi-dir data plane probes send between R7-R9, R=
3-R7, R4-R7, R4-R9, R3-R9<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Many thx,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Robert.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 4:38 AM Shraddha Hegde &lt;s=
hraddha=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf..org</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">WG,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is the draft I pointed out that talks about sol=
utions for providing node-protection.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It covers Anycast case as well as keeping forwarding=
 plane longer.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clickt=
ime.symantec.com/3HvrzHXwAou2JruETj6jcyF6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.co=
m*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fclicktime.symantec.com*2F375SW6TBGPi2mN7V9YeVWGg6H2*3=
Fu*3Dhttps*2A3A*2A2F*2A2Ftools.ietf.org*2A2Fhtml*2A2Fdraft-hegde-spring-nod=
e-protection-for-sr-te-paths-05__*3BJSUlJSU*218WoA6RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV=
17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0Vmgg0xmj_C*24__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl=
JSUlJQ!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhL=
H9RfbOqT$" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#0563C1">https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-paths-05</span></a=
><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Review and comments solicited.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Rgds<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
rtgwg mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtgwg@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/37ZvNS=
MSAddpxDGDQPm7oVA6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fc=
licktime.symantec.com*2F35M9j5zHTaSYRwVh5RP6xcB6H2*3Fu*3Dhttps*2A3A*2A2F*2A=
2Fwww.ietf.org*2A2Fmailman*2A2Flistinfo*2A2Frtgwg__*3BJSUlJSUl*218WoA6RjC81=
c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0VmgvV9Y4sM*24__;J=
SUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_=
d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH_pG5Prx$" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/rtgwg</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
<o:p></o:p></p>
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From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "rtgwg@ietf.org" <rtgwg@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Paths
Thread-Topic: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Paths
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:27:59 +0000
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Currently the biggest issue that I see with S-BFD based protection - which =
is something we use in production is as follows:

Unless I'm mistaken - there is absolutely no way to tie S-BFD based protect=
ion with BGP injected SR-TE pathing
Node validation as defined in the SR-TE drafts is limited to presence in th=
e IGP
Since SR-TE path injection may be done through reflectors - using target co=
mmunities - the point of communication into the network is not necessarily =
the head end of the tunnel and the point of injection may be entirely unawa=
re of the implications of the path that's being inserted.

By utilizing what is contained in this draft to build context tables at the=
 head end of an inserted tunnel on an automated basis - this solves a probl=
em that currently exists that S-BFD simply cannot solve without modificatio=
n to the srte policy insertion drafts that would allow for automated buildi=
ng of S-BFD checks - which in and of itself could prove challenging conside=
ring the complexity of this.

That is not to say in any way that both s-bfd and potentially other mechani=
sms do not have use cases - but as an operator - this draft would certainly=
 provide a better mechanism for constant path validation than anything we c=
urrently have (which is based on steered packets that leave the controller =
and return to the controller through the use of SR packets and binding sids=
).

Just my 2c

Thanks

Andrew


From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Shraddha Hegde
Sent: Monday, 2 December 2019 10:24
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; r=
tgwg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Sasha,

We are in agreement on separating the trigger from the protection mechanism=
.

> In any case I think that it woyld make sense to separate the protection s=
cheme proposed in the draft from specific triggers for its activation >simi=
lar to how this has been done in MPLS Egress Protection Framework draft.

I'll add text in the next revision for this.

Rgds
Shraddha


From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com<mailto:Alexand=
er.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>>
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 12:24 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk <robert@r=
aszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Shraddha,
Lots of thanks for athe tesponse.

I probably did not express myself clearly enough. I will try to fix thst no=
w, and I apologise in advance for a long email.

I have not been speaking about end-yo-end protecyion, only about local prot=
ection against failure of an intermediate (a.k.a. pinned) node of an SR pat=
h and, specifically, triggers for such protection. This context has been ac=
tually defined by Robert in his original comment.

To the best of my understanding, Robert's concern was that failure of the l=
ink beteeen the pinned node of a SR path and its adjacency (the penultimate=
 node of the Segment represented by the Node SID of the pinned node) is not=
 a good enough indication of the pinned node failure.

I agree with this statement even if my understanding of a good indication d=
iffers from Robert's:
- I think that it is not sufficiently specific and therefore could result i=
n flapping (local node protection activated and then released)
-Robert's concern, to the best of my understanding, was that it could miss =
some failures (e.g. the Fabric failure).

Therefore I have suggested two possibilities for more specific and more rrl=
iabke detection of failure of the pinned node by its adjacency:

1. Run a multi-hop IP BFD session between the peniltimate node ans the pinn=
ed ones using prefixes acting as Node SIDs of this pair.  This wiuld ignore=
 link failures but locally detect such node failurs as power-down or crash.

2.  Run S-BFD sessions to all other adjacencies of the pinned node using in=
 each case a list of two SIDs: the protected Adj-SID to the pinned node fol=
lowed by tge Node SID of the other adjacency, ans declare pinned node failu=
re when all these sessions fail. This would again ignore failure of the lin=
k between the penultimate node and the pinned node but detect various real =
failures of the pinned node, e.g. failure of its Fabric.

In any case I think that it woyld make sense to separate the protection sch=
eme proposed in the draft from specific triggers for its activation similar=
 to how this has been done in MPLS Egress Protection Framework draft.

My 2c.






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IH$>

________________________________
From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019, 06:10
To: Alexander Vainshtein; Robert Raszuk
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Robert/Sasha,


S-BFD based mechanism is  head-end triggered protection. It is not a local =
protection.
S-BFD mechanism is orthogonal to the mechanism described in this draft and =
an operator can
choose what kind of protection makes more sense to his/her network.

In many cases, node-protecting backup path will be different from link-prot=
ecting/SRLG protecting backup path.
If you really want to use link-protecting backup path when link fails and n=
ode protecting backup path when node fails,
You will have to download both link protecting and node-protecting backup p=
aths in FIB and detect which
failure really happened and have the ability in hardware to use appropriate=
 backup path. None of these
is in the scope of this document.

Rgds
Shraddha


From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com<mailto:Alexand=
er.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019 8:15 PM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>; Shraddha H=
egde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Robert,
On the second thought, for the purpose of this draft (i.e. in the scope of =
SR) it is possible to implement your suggestion by running S-BFD sessions b=
etween R7 (as the initiator) and each other adjacency of R8  (acting as Ref=
lectors) of a SR policy with list of two SIDs:
- protected adjacency between R7 and R8
- Node SID of the specific "other" adjacency  of R8.

If all these sessions fail, R7 can reliably consider R8 as failed.

I am not sure this would be much better than multi-hop IP BFD, and it looks=
 much more complicated to me.


What do you think?




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_https*3A*2Faka.ms*2Fghei36__*3B*218WoA6RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI00=
2KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0VmgnYBhAbc*24__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!QA=
hYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH1YVygZC$>

________________________________
From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com<mailto:Alexand=
er.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019, 13:15
To: Robert Raszuk; Shraddha Hegde
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Robert,
Lots of thanks for a prompt response.

I respectfully disagree with your statement that BFD implementation  is usu=
ally offloaded to the HW of the ingress line card.  I do not think this can=
 wor for MH BFD sessions because the ingress and egress line cards are not =
known in advance and change with the routing changes
A good  multi-hop BFD implementation should be ready to overcome this.. The=
re are many ways to achieve that. A naive implementation that runs in SW of=
 the control card is also possible of course. And they would sensd and rece=
ive packets

My 2c.
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_https*3A*2Faka.ms*2Fghei36__*3B*218WoA6RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI00=
2KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0VmgnYBhAbc*24__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!QA=
hYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH1YVygZC$>

________________________________
From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019, 12:37
To: Alexander Vainshtein; Shraddha Hegde
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>; rtg-bfd@ietf.org<mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Hi Sasha,

On the surface your suggestion may look cool - but if you zoom in - I do no=
t think it will work in practice.

See - one of the biggest value of BFD is its offload to line card's hardwar=
e. And in most cases it is ingress line card to the box. So if you instruct=
 such hardware to respond to SID address loopback you still did not gain mu=
ch in terms of detection router's fabric failures, remote LC failure or con=
trol plane issues which could soon result in box failure. The catalogue of =
router failures is of course much more colorful.

If you ask BFD to be responded by RP/RE it no longer has the BFD advantage.

IMHO the best way to detect node failure is actually to send the probes *ac=
ross* the node under test to its peers.

The way I would think of establishing such m-hop sessions would be fully au=
tomated with one knob per IGP adj. ex: "bfd detect-node-failure [max N]" wh=
ere local BFD subsystem would create N sessions to IGP peers of the node we=
 are to protect. LSDB has those peers so no new protocol extension is neede=
d, perhaps even no new IETF draft is required :). N would be the limit of s=
uch sessions in case the node under protection has say 10s of peers. Defaul=
t could be perhaps even 1.

Thx,
Robert.


On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:00 AM Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com<mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
Shraddha, Robert and all,
Regarding Robert's question:
I wonder if multi-hop IP BFD session with addresses used as /32 (or /128) p=
refixes serving as Nose SIDs of R8 and R7 respectively could be used as suc=
h a trigger by R7? Such a session would not respond to link failures, and I=
 find it problematic to imagine a scenario when it would be kept UP in the =
case of a real node failure.

Of course such a session would have to be slow enough not to react to link =
failures. But it still couks be much faster than IGP conversion IMHO.

My 2c,
Sasha

Such


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q73pAh$>

________________________________
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on b=
ehalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:22
To: Shraddha Hegde
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; rtgwg@ietf.org<mailto:rtgwg@ie=
tf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR=
 Paths

Hi Shraddha,

I have one question to the document.

As you know the critical element for the effective protection of any scheme=
 is the failure detection. On that your draft seems to have just one little=
 paragraph:


   Note that R7 activates the node-protecting backup path when it

   detects that the link to R8 has failed.  R7 does not know that node

   R8 has actually failed.  However, the node-protecting backup path is

   computed assuming that the failure of the link to R8 implies that R8

   has failed.

Well IMO this is not enough. Specifically there can be a lot of types of no=
de failure when link is still up. Moreover there can be even running BFD ac=
ross the link just fine when say fabric failure occurs at R8.

While this is not solely issue with this draft, it is our common IETF failu=
re to provide correct means of detecting end to end path or fragments of pa=
th failures (I am specifically not calling them segment here :).

For example I propose that to effectively detect R8 failure as node failure=
 which is the topic of your proposal a mechanism is clearly defined and inc=
ludes bi-dir data plane probes send between R7-R9, R3-R7, R4-R7, R4-R9, R3-=
R9

Many thx,
Robert.


On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 4:38 AM Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=3D40juniper.net@dm=
arc.ietf..org<mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
WG,

This is the draft I pointed out that talks about solutions for providing no=
de-protection.
It covers Anycast case as well as keeping forwarding plane longer.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-pa=
ths-05<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/3HvrzHXwAo=
u2JruETj6jcyF6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fclick=
time.symantec.com*2F375SW6TBGPi2mN7V9YeVWGg6H2*3Fu*3Dhttps*2A3A*2A2F*2A2Fto=
ols.ietf.org*2A2Fhtml*2A2Fdraft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-path=
s-05__*3BJSUlJSU*218WoA6RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA=
6sJ1EbrioDE0Vmgg0xmj_C*24__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0q=
hoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH9RfbOqT$>

Review and comments solicited.

Rgds
Shraddha

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<body lang=3D"en-KE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">Currently the biggest issue that I see with S-BFD based protection &#=
8211; which is something we use in production is as follows:<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">Unless I&#8217;m mistaken &#8211; there is absolutely no way to tie S=
-BFD based protection with BGP injected SR-TE pathing<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">Node validation as defined in the SR-TE drafts is limited to presence=
 in the IGP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">Since SR-TE path injection may be done through reflectors &#8211; usi=
ng target communities &#8211; the point of communication into the network i=
s not necessarily the head end of the tunnel and the
 point of injection may be entirely unaware of the implications of the path=
 that&#8217;s being inserted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">By utilizing what is contained in this draft to build context tables =
at the head end of an inserted tunnel on an automated basis &#8211; this so=
lves a problem that currently exists that S-BFD
 simply cannot solve without modification to the srte policy insertion draf=
ts that would allow for automated building of S-BFD checks &#8211; which in=
 and of itself could prove challenging considering the complexity of this.&=
nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">That is not to say in any way that both s-bfd and potentially other m=
echanisms do not have use cases &#8211; but as an operator &#8211; this dra=
ft would certainly provide a better mechanism for
 constant path validation than anything we currently have (which is based o=
n steered packets that leave the controller and return to the controller th=
rough the use of SR packets and binding sids).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">Just my 2c<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US">Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"en-KE" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> spring &lt;spring-bounces@ietf.org&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Shraddha Hegde<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 2 December 2019 10:24<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;<br=
>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@rasz=
uk.net&gt;; rtgwg@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate node=
s in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Sasha,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We are in agreement on separati=
ng the trigger from the protection mechanism.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#212121"> =
In any case I think that it woyld make sense to separate the protection sch=
eme proposed in the draft from specific triggers
 for its activation &gt;similar to how this has been done in MPLS Egress Pr=
otection Framework draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">I&#8217;ll add text in the next revision for this.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 2, 2019 12:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shrad=
dha@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org">
rtgwg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a=
>; Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net=
</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate node=
s in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">Shraddha,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">Lots of thanks for athe tesponse.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">I probably did not express myself clearly enough. I wil=
l try to fix thst now, and I apologise in advance for a long email.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">I have not been speaking about end-yo-end protecyion, o=
nly about local protection against failure of an intermediate (a.k.a. pinne=
d) node of an SR path and, specifically,
 triggers for such protection. This context has been actually defined by Ro=
bert in his original comment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">To the best of my understanding, Robert's concern was t=
hat failure of the link beteeen the pinned node of a SR path and its adjace=
ncy (the penultimate node of the Segment
 represented by the Node SID of the pinned node) is not a good enough indic=
ation of the pinned node failure.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">I agree with this statement even if my understanding of=
 a good indication differs from Robert's:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">- I think that it is not sufficiently specific and ther=
efore could result in flapping (local node protection activated and then re=
leased)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">-Robert's concern, to the best of my understanding, was=
 that it could miss some failures (e.g. the Fabric failure).<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">Therefore I have suggested two possibilities for more s=
pecific and more rrliabke detection of failure of the pinned node by its ad=
jacency:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">1. Run a multi-hop IP BFD session between the peniltima=
te node ans the pinned ones using prefixes acting as Node SIDs of this pair=
.&nbsp; This wiuld ignore link failures but locally
 detect such node failurs as power-down or crash.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">2.&nbsp; Run S-BFD sessions to all other adjacencies of=
 the pinned node using in each case a list of two SIDs: the protected Adj-S=
ID to the pinned node followed by tge Node SID
 of the other adjacency, ans declare pinned node failure when all these ses=
sions fail. This would again ignore failure of the link between the penulti=
mate node and the pinned node but detect various real failures of the pinne=
d node, e.g. failure of its Fabric.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">In any case I think that it woyld make sense to separat=
e the protection scheme proposed in the draft from specific triggers for it=
s activation similar to how this has been
 done in MPLS Egress Protection Framework draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">My 2c.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div id=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.com/v3/__https:/aka.ms/ghei36__;!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR=
-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH6GPZiIH$">
Outlook for Android</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-f74214cb-047a-4c83-9cf4-9a7de0bb103a">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Sh=
raddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shraddha@juniper.n=
et</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</s=
pan></strong> Monday, December 2, 2019, 06:10<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</spa=
n></strong> Alexander Vainshtein; Robert Raszuk<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</spa=
n></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org">rtgwg@ietf.org</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org">
rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject:=
</span></strong> RE: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nod=
es in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Robert/Sasha,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">S-BFD based mechanism is &nbsp;=
head-end triggered protection. It is not a local protection.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">S-BFD mechanism is orthogonal t=
o the mechanism described in this draft and an operator can
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">choose what kind of protection =
makes more sense to his/her network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In many cases, node-protecting =
backup path will be different from link-protecting/SRLG protecting backup p=
ath.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If you really want to use link-=
protecting backup path when link fails and node protecting backup path when=
 node fails,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">You will have to download both =
link protecting and node-protecting backup paths in FIB and detect which<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">failure really happened and hav=
e the ability in hardware to use appropriate backup path. None of these<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">is in the scope of this documen=
t.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 23, 2019 8:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@ra=
szuk.net</a>&gt;; Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net=
">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org">
rtgwg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate node=
s in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">Robert,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">On the second thought, for the purpose of this draft (i=
.e. in the scope of SR) it is possible to implement your suggestion by runn=
ing S-BFD sessions between R7 (as the initiator)
 and each other adjacency of R8&nbsp; (acting as Reflectors) of a SR policy=
 with list of two SIDs:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">- protected adjacency between R7 and R8</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">- Node SID of the specific &quot;other&quot; adjacency&=
nbsp; of R8.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">If all these sessions fail, R7 can reliably consider R8=
 as failed.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">I am not sure this would be much better than multi-hop =
IP BFD, and it looks much more complicated to me.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">What do you think?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<div id=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/3MR8y7CviGLkS3kzg1UybRv6H2?u=3Dht=
tps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Faka.ms*2Fghei36__*3B*218WoA6=
RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0VmgnYBhAbc*2=
4__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKEl=
C5ktZrPekfTDhLH1YVygZC$">
Outlook for Android</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-74ed52be-d7d4-4ced-94d3-671c6f1b4e71">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Al=
exander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">=
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</s=
pan></strong> Saturday, November 23, 2019, 13:15<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</spa=
n></strong> Robert Raszuk; Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</spa=
n></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org">rtgwg@ietf.org</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org">
rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject:=
</span></strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nod=
es in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">Robert,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">Lots of thanks for a prompt response.</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">I respectfully disagree with your statement that BFD im=
plementation&nbsp; is usually offloaded to the HW of the ingress line card.=
&nbsp; I do not think this can wor for MH BFD sessions
 because the ingress and egress line cards are not known in advance and cha=
nge with the routing changes</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">A good&nbsp; multi-hop BFD implementation should be rea=
dy to overcome this.. There are many ways to achieve that. A naive implemen=
tation that runs in SW of the control card is
 also possible of course. And they would sensd and receive packets&nbsp;</s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">My 2c.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<div id=3D"ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/3MR8y7CviGLkS3kzg1UybRv6H2?u=3Dht=
tps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Faka.ms*2Fghei36__*3B*218WoA6=
RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0VmgnYBhAbc*2=
4__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKEl=
C5ktZrPekfTDhLH1YVygZC$">
Outlook for Android</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"id-489fbd3c-6e9f-45dd-96d9-cf663b19aa9f">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Ro=
bert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&=
gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</s=
pan></strong> Saturday, November 23, 2019, 12:37<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</spa=
n></strong> Alexander Vainshtein; Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</spa=
n></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org">rtgwg@ietf.org</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org">
rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject:=
</span></strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nod=
es in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Sasha, <o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On the surface your suggestion =
may look cool - but if you zoom in - I do not think it will work in practic=
e.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">See - one of the biggest value =
of BFD is its offload to line card's hardware. And in most cases it is ingr=
ess line card to the box. So if you instruct such hardware to respond to SI=
D address loopback you still did not
 gain much in terms of detection router's fabric failures, remote LC failur=
e or control&nbsp;plane issues which could soon result in box failure. The =
catalogue of router failures is of course much more colorful.&nbsp;<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If you ask BFD to be responded =
by RP/RE it no longer has the BFD advantage.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">IMHO the best way to detect nod=
e failure&nbsp;is actually to send the probes *across* the node under test =
to its peers.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The way I would think of establ=
ishing such m-hop sessions would be fully automated with one knob per IGP a=
dj. ex: &quot;bfd detect-node-failure [max N]&quot; where local BFD subsyst=
em would create N sessions to IGP peers of the
 node we are to protect. LSDB has those peers so no new protocol extension&=
nbsp;is needed, perhaps even no new IETF draft is required :). N would be t=
he limit of such sessions in case the node under protection has say 10s of =
peers. Default could be perhaps even
 1.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thx,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Robert.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:00 A=
M Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">Shraddha, Robert and all,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">Regarding Robert's question:&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">I wonder if multi-hop IP BFD session with addresses use=
d as /32 (or /128) prefixes serving as Nose SIDs of R8 and R7 respectively =
could be used as such a trigger by R7? Such
 a session would not respond to link failures, and I find it problematic to=
 imagine a scenario when it would be kept UP in the case of a real node fai=
lure.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">Of course such a session would have to be slow enough n=
ot to react to link failures. But it still couks be much faster than IGP co=
nversion IMHO.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">My 2c,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">Sasha</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">Such</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:#212121">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-4605818059593462101ms-outloo=
k-mobile-signature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefen=
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2CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH7q73pAh$" target=3D"_blank">
Outlook for Android</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-4605818059593462101id-1769ab=
d3-4294-4e88-900e-ba1884f84918">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-4605818059593462101divRplyFw=
dMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US"> sp=
ring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</s=
pan></strong> Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:22<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To:</spa=
n></strong> Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</spa=
n></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rt=
gwg@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject:=
</span></strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nod=
es in SR Paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi&nbsp;Shraddha, <o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I have one question to the docu=
ment.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">As you know the critical elemen=
t for&nbsp;the effective protection of any scheme is the failure detection.=
 On that your draft seems to have just one little paragraph:&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp; Note that R7 activates the node-protecting backup path when i=
t</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; detects that t=
he link to R8 has failed.&nbsp; R7 does not know that node</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; R8 has actuall=
y failed.&nbsp; However, the node-protecting backup path is</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; computed assum=
ing that the failure of the link to R8 implies that R8</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; has failed.</s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Well IMO this is not enough. Sp=
ecifically&nbsp;there can be a lot of types of node failure when link is st=
ill up. Moreover there can be even running BFD across the link just fine wh=
en say fabric failure occurs at R8.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">While this is not solely issue =
with this draft, it is our common IETF failure to provide correct means of =
detecting end to end path or fragments of path failures (I am specifically =
not calling them segment here :).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">For example I propose that to e=
ffectively detect R8 failure as node failure which is the topic of your pro=
posal a mechanism is clearly defined and includes bi-dir data plane probes =
send between R7-R9, R3-R7, R4-R7, R4-R9,
 R3-R9<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Many thx,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Robert.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 4:38 AM=
 Shraddha Hegde &lt;shraddha=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf..org</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">WG,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This is the draft I pointed out=
 that talks about solutions for providing node-protection.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">It covers Anycast case as well =
as keeping forwarding plane longer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.c=
om/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/3HvrzHXwAou2JruETj6jcyF6H2?u=3Dhttps*=
3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fclicktime.symantec.com*2F375SW6T=
BGPi2mN7V9YeVWGg6H2*3Fu*3Dhttps*2A3A*2A2F*2A2Ftools.ietf.org*2A2Fhtml*2A2Fd=
raft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-paths-05__*3BJSUlJSU*218WoA6RjC=
81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0Vmgg0xmj_C*24__=
;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O=
_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH9RfbOqT$" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#056=
3C1">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-=
te-paths-05</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Review and comments solicited.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">_______________________________=
________________<br>
rtgwg mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtgwg@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/37ZvNS=
MSAddpxDGDQPm7oVA6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fc=
licktime.symantec.com*2F35M9j5zHTaSYRwVh5RP6xcB6H2*3Fu*3Dhttps*2A3A*2A2F*2A=
2Fwww.ietf.org*2A2Fmailman*2A2Flistinfo*2A2Frtgwg__*3BJSUlJSUl*218WoA6RjC81=
c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0VmgvV9Y4sM*24__;J=
SUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_=
d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH_pG5Prx$" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/rtgwg</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
<br>
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This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
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This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "rtgwg@ietf.org" <rtgwg@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Paths
Thread-Topic: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Paths
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 10:49:31 +0100
Message-ID: <CAOj+MME2EM52zF8j0N6+8kYpkPz2AN2JP0uMP4JYZcxOgXqGcw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Paths
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "rtgwg@ietf.org" <rtgwg@ietf.org>
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On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 10:28 AM Andrew Alston <
Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

Currently the biggest issue that I see with S-BFD based protection =E2=80=
=93 which
> is something we use in production is as follows:
>
>
>
> Unless I=E2=80=99m mistaken =E2=80=93 there is absolutely no way to tie S=
-BFD based
> protection with BGP injected SR-TE pathing
>


Well I am not sure what you call " BGP injected SR-TE pathing" but if you
are looking for validation of BGP paths that has been supported by some
vendors for a loooong time. Hint: you allocate different next hop for your
SR-TE endpoints and voila.

Btw - not an ietf topic, but an implementation request / vendor's feature.

Besides, since you are talking about headend what you are describing is
path protection ... this draft talks about node protection which is a
completely different thing.

Cheers,
r.



> Node validation as defined in the SR-TE drafts is limited to presence in
> the IGP
>
> Since SR-TE path injection may be done through reflectors =E2=80=93 using=
 target
> communities =E2=80=93 the point of communication into the network is not
> necessarily the head end of the tunnel and the point of injection may be
> entirely unaware of the implications of the path that=E2=80=99s being ins=
erted.
>
>
>
> By utilizing what is contained in this draft to build context tables at
> the head end of an inserted tunnel on an automated basis =E2=80=93 this s=
olves a
> problem that currently exists that S-BFD simply cannot solve without
> modification to the srte policy insertion drafts that would allow for
> automated building of S-BFD checks =E2=80=93 which in and of itself could=
 prove
> challenging considering the complexity of this.
>
>
>
> That is not to say in any way that both s-bfd and potentially other
> mechanisms do not have use cases =E2=80=93 but as an operator =E2=80=93 t=
his draft would
> certainly provide a better mechanism for constant path validation than
> anything we currently have (which is based on steered packets that leave
> the controller and return to the controller through the use of SR packets
> and binding sids).
>
>
>
> Just my 2c
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Shraddha Hegde
> *Sent:* Monday, 2 December 2019 10:24
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net=
>;
> rtgwg@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes
> in SR Paths
>
>
>
> Sasha,
>
>
>
> We are in agreement on separating the trigger from the protection
> mechanism.
>
>
>
> > In any case I think that it woyld make sense to separate the protection
> scheme proposed in the draft from specific triggers for its activation
> >similar to how this has been done in MPLS Egress Protection Framework
> draft.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99ll add text in the next revision for this.
>
>
>
> Rgds
>
> Shraddha
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 2, 2019 12:24 PM
> *To:* Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk <
> robert@raszuk.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes
> in SR Paths
>
>
>
> Shraddha,
>
> Lots of thanks for athe tesponse.
>
>
>
> I probably did not express myself clearly enough. I will try to fix thst
> now, and I apologise in advance for a long email.
>
>
>
> I have not been speaking about end-yo-end protecyion, only about local
> protection against failure of an intermediate (a.k.a. pinned) node of an =
SR
> path and, specifically, triggers for such protection. This context has be=
en
> actually defined by Robert in his original comment.
>
>
>
> To the best of my understanding, Robert's concern was that failure of the
> link beteeen the pinned node of a SR path and its adjacency (the
> penultimate node of the Segment represented by the Node SID of the pinned
> node) is not a good enough indication of the pinned node failure.
>
>
>
> I agree with this statement even if my understanding of a good indication
> differs from Robert's:
>
> - I think that it is not sufficiently specific and therefore could result
> in flapping (local node protection activated and then released)
>
> -Robert's concern, to the best of my understanding, was that it could mis=
s
> some failures (e.g. the Fabric failure).
>
>
>
> Therefore I have suggested two possibilities for more specific and more
> rrliabke detection of failure of the pinned node by its adjacency:
>
>
>
> 1. Run a multi-hop IP BFD session between the peniltimate node ans the
> pinned ones using prefixes acting as Node SIDs of this pair.  This wiuld
> ignore link failures but locally detect such node failurs as power-down o=
r
> crash.
>
>
>
> 2.  Run S-BFD sessions to all other adjacencies of the pinned node using
> in each case a list of two SIDs: the protected Adj-SID to the pinned node
> followed by tge Node SID of the other adjacency, ans declare pinned node
> failure when all these sessions fail. This would again ignore failure of
> the link between the penultimate node and the pinned node but detect
> various real failures of the pinned node, e.g. failure of its Fabric.
>
>
>
> In any case I think that it woyld make sense to separate the protection
> scheme proposed in the draft from specific triggers for its activation
> similar to how this has been done in MPLS Egress Protection Framework dra=
ft.
>
>
>
> My 2c.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/aka.ms/ghei36__;!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0q=
hoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH6GPZiIH$>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 2, 2019, 06:10
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein; Robert Raszuk
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes
> in SR Paths
>
>
>
> Robert/Sasha,
>
>
>
>
>
> S-BFD based mechanism is  head-end triggered protection. It is not a loca=
l
> protection.
>
> S-BFD mechanism is orthogonal to the mechanism described in this draft an=
d
> an operator can
>
> choose what kind of protection makes more sense to his/her network.
>
>
>
> In many cases, node-protecting backup path will be different from
> link-protecting/SRLG protecting backup path.
>
> If you really want to use link-protecting backup path when link fails and
> node protecting backup path when node fails,
>
> You will have to download both link protecting and node-protecting backup
> paths in FIB and detect which
>
> failure really happened and have the ability in hardware to use
> appropriate backup path. None of these
>
> is in the scope of this document.
>
>
>
> Rgds
>
> Shraddha
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 23, 2019 8:15 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Shraddha Hegde <
> shraddha@juniper.net>
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes
> in SR Paths
>
>
>
> Robert,
>
> On the second thought, for the purpose of this draft (i.e. in the scope o=
f
> SR) it is possible to implement your suggestion by running S-BFD sessions
> between R7 (as the initiator) and each other adjacency of R8  (acting as
> Reflectors) of a SR policy with list of two SIDs:
>
> - protected adjacency between R7 and R8
>
> - Node SID of the specific "other" adjacency  of R8.
>
>
>
> If all these sessions fail, R7 can reliably consider R8 as failed.
>
>
>
> I am not sure this would be much better than multi-hop IP BFD, and it
> looks much more complicated to me.
>
>
>
>
>
> What do you think?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/3MR8y7CviGLkS3=
kzg1UybRv6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Faka.ms*2F=
ghei36__*3B*218WoA6RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1E=
brioDE0VmgnYBhAbc*24__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap1=
2CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH1YVygZC$>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 23, 2019, 13:15
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Shraddha Hegde
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes
> in SR Paths
>
>
>
> Robert,
>
> Lots of thanks for a prompt response.
>
>
>
> I respectfully disagree with your statement that BFD implementation  is
> usually offloaded to the HW of the ingress line card.  I do not think thi=
s
> can wor for MH BFD sessions because the ingress and egress line cards are
> not known in advance and change with the routing changes
>
> A good  multi-hop BFD implementation should be ready to overcome this..
> There are many ways to achieve that. A naive implementation that runs in =
SW
> of the control card is also possible of course. And they would sensd and
> receive packets
>
>
>
> My 2c.
>
> Get Outlook for Android
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/3MR8y7CviGLkS3=
kzg1UybRv6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Faka.ms*2F=
ghei36__*3B*218WoA6RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1E=
brioDE0VmgnYBhAbc*24__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap1=
2CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH1YVygZC$>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 23, 2019, 12:37
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein; Shraddha Hegde
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes
> in SR Paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
>
>
> On the surface your suggestion may look cool - but if you zoom in - I do
> not think it will work in practice.
>
>
>
> See - one of the biggest value of BFD is its offload to line card's
> hardware. And in most cases it is ingress line card to the box. So if you
> instruct such hardware to respond to SID address loopback you still did n=
ot
> gain much in terms of detection router's fabric failures, remote LC failu=
re
> or control plane issues which could soon result in box failure. The
> catalogue of router failures is of course much more colorful.
>
>
>
> If you ask BFD to be responded by RP/RE it no longer has the BFD
> advantage.
>
>
>
> IMHO the best way to detect node failure is actually to send the probes
> *across* the node under test to its peers.
>
>
>
> The way I would think of establishing such m-hop sessions would be fully
> automated with one knob per IGP adj. ex: "bfd detect-node-failure [max N]=
"
> where local BFD subsystem would create N sessions to IGP peers of the nod=
e
> we are to protect. LSDB has those peers so no new protocol extension is
> needed, perhaps even no new IETF draft is required :). N would be the lim=
it
> of such sessions in case the node under protection has say 10s of peers.
> Default could be perhaps even 1.
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> Robert.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:00 AM Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Shraddha, Robert and all,
>
> Regarding Robert's question:
>
> I wonder if multi-hop IP BFD session with addresses used as /32 (or /128)
> prefixes serving as Nose SIDs of R8 and R7 respectively could be used as
> such a trigger by R7? Such a session would not respond to link failures,
> and I find it problematic to imagine a scenario when it would be kept UP =
in
> the case of a real node failure.
>
>
>
> Of course such a session would have to be slow enough not to react to lin=
k
> failures. But it still couks be much faster than IGP conversion IMHO.
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Such
>
>
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/3NbK72q2ca668a=
VyMaT7Esn6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fclicktime=
.symantec.com*2F3CfVQPtBYBAPbHUSngEVNQD6H2*3Fu*3Dhttps*2A3A*2A2F*2A2Faka.ms=
*2A2Fghei36__*3BJSUlJQ*218WoA6RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_Ejx=
Lc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0Vmgujy50EN*24__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhY=
aA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH7q73pAh$>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <
> robert@raszuk.net>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:22
> *To:* Shraddha Hegde
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes
> in SR Paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
>
>
> I have one question to the document.
>
>
>
> As you know the critical element for the effective protection of any
> scheme is the failure detection. On that your draft seems to have just on=
e
> little paragraph:
>
>
>
>    Note that R7 activates the node-protecting backup path when it
>
>    detects that the link to R8 has failed.  R7 does not know that node
>
>    R8 has actually failed.  However, the node-protecting backup path is
>
>    computed assuming that the failure of the link to R8 implies that R8
>
>    has failed.
>
>
>
> Well IMO this is not enough. Specifically there can be a lot of types of
> node failure when link is still up. Moreover there can be even running BF=
D
> across the link just fine when say fabric failure occurs at R8.
>
>
>
> While this is not solely issue with this draft, it is our common IETF
> failure to provide correct means of detecting end to end path or fragment=
s
> of path failures (I am specifically not calling them segment here :).
>
>
>
> For example I propose that to effectively detect R8 failure as node
> failure which is the topic of your proposal a mechanism is clearly define=
d
> and includes bi-dir data plane probes send between R7-R9, R3-R7, R4-R7,
> R4-R9, R3-R9
>
>
>
> Many thx,
>
> Robert.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 4:38 AM Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=3D
> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf..org <40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>
> WG,
>
>
>
> This is the draft I pointed out that talks about solutions for providing
> node-protection.
>
> It covers Anycast case as well as keeping forwarding plane longer.
>
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-=
paths-05
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/3HvrzHXwAou2Jr=
uETj6jcyF6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fclicktime=
.symantec.com*2F375SW6TBGPi2mN7V9YeVWGg6H2*3Fu*3Dhttps*2A3A*2A2F*2A2Ftools.=
ietf.org*2A2Fhtml*2A2Fdraft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-paths-05=
__*3BJSUlJSU*218WoA6RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1=
EbrioDE0Vmgg0xmj_C*24__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ=
3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH9RfbOqT$>
>
>
>
> Review and comments solicited.
>
>
>
> Rgds
>
> Shraddha
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtgwg mailing list
> rtgwg@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/37ZvNSMSAddpxD=
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.symantec.com*2F35M9j5zHTaSYRwVh5RP6xcB6H2*3Fu*3Dhttps*2A3A*2A2F*2A2Fwww.ie=
tf.org*2A2Fmailman*2A2Flistinfo*2A2Frtgwg__*3BJSUlJSUl*218WoA6RjC81c*21Xo-D=
7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0VmgvV9Y4sM*24__;JSUlJSUlJ=
SUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5=
ktZrPekfTDhLH_pG5Prx$>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
__
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
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--000000000000a223b50598b57f1c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 10:28 AM Andrew Al=
ston &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com">Andrew.Alston@l=
iquidtelecom.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"en-KE">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Currently the biggest issue tha=
t I see with S-BFD based protection =E2=80=93 which is something we use in =
production is as follows:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Unless I=E2=80=99m mistaken =E2=
=80=93 there is absolutely no way to tie S-BFD based protection with BGP in=
jected SR-TE pathing</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
><br></div><div>Well I am not sure what you call &quot;

BGP injected SR-TE pathing&quot; but if you are looking for validation of B=
GP paths that has been supported by some vendors for a loooong time. Hint: =
you allocate different next hop for your SR-TE endpoints and voila.=C2=A0</=
div><div><br></div><div>Btw - not an ietf topic, but an implementation requ=
est / vendor&#39;s feature.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Besides, since y=
ou are talking about headend what you are describing is path protection ...=
 this draft talks about node protection which is a completely different thi=
ng.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>r.</div><div><br></div=
><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div la=
ng=3D"en-KE"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686WordSection1"><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Node validation as defined in t=
he SR-TE drafts is limited to presence in the IGP<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Since SR-TE path injection may =
be done through reflectors =E2=80=93 using target communities =E2=80=93 the=
 point of communication into the network is not necessarily the head end of=
 the tunnel and the
 point of injection may be entirely unaware of the implications of the path=
 that=E2=80=99s being inserted.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">By utilizing what is contained =
in this draft to build context tables at the head end of an inserted tunnel=
 on an automated basis =E2=80=93 this solves a problem that currently exist=
s that S-BFD
 simply cannot solve without modification to the srte policy insertion draf=
ts that would allow for automated building of S-BFD checks =E2=80=93 which =
in and of itself could prove challenging considering the complexity of this=
.=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">That is not to say in any way t=
hat both s-bfd and potentially other mechanisms do not have use cases =E2=
=80=93 but as an operator =E2=80=93 this draft would certainly provide a be=
tter mechanism for
 constant path validation than anything we currently have (which is based o=
n steered packets that leave the controller and return to the controller th=
rough the use of SR packets and binding sids).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Just my 2c<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Andrew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"en-KE"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Shraddha Hegde<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 2 December 2019 10:24<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf=
.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-bfd@iet=
f.org</a>; Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">rtgwg@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate node=
s in SR Paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Sasha,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We are in agreement on separati=
ng the trigger from the protection mechanism.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,=
33)"> In any case I think that it woyld make sense to separate the protecti=
on scheme proposed in the draft from specific triggers
 for its activation &gt;similar to how this has been done in MPLS Egress Pr=
otection Framework draft.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">I=E2=80=99ll add text in the next revision for th=
is.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Rgds<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Shraddha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 2, 2019 12:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net" targe=
t=3D"_blank">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf=
.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
rtgwg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">r=
tg-bfd@ietf.org</a>; Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net"=
 target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate node=
s in SR Paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Shraddha,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Lots of thanks for athe tesponse.<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">I probably did not express myself clearly enough.=
 I will try to fix thst now, and I apologise in advance for a long email.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">I have not been speaking about end-yo-end protecy=
ion, only about local protection against failure of an intermediate (a.k.a.=
 pinned) node of an SR path and, specifically,
 triggers for such protection. This context has been actually defined by Ro=
bert in his original comment.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">To the best of my understanding, Robert&#39;s con=
cern was that failure of the link beteeen the pinned node of a SR path and =
its adjacency (the penultimate node of the Segment
 represented by the Node SID of the pinned node) is not a good enough indic=
ation of the pinned node failure.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">I agree with this statement even if my understand=
ing of a good indication differs from Robert&#39;s:<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">- I think that it is not sufficiently specific an=
d therefore could result in flapping (local node protection activated and t=
hen released)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">-Robert&#39;s concern, to the best of my understa=
nding, was that it could miss some failures (e.g. the Fabric failure).<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Therefore I have suggested two possibilities for =
more specific and more rrliabke detection of failure of the pinned node by =
its adjacency:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">1. Run a multi-hop IP BFD session between the pen=
iltimate node ans the pinned ones using prefixes acting as Node SIDs of thi=
s pair.=C2=A0 This wiuld ignore link failures but locally
 detect such node failurs as power-down or crash.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">2.=C2=A0 Run S-BFD sessions to all other adjacenc=
ies of the pinned node using in each case a list of two SIDs: the protected=
 Adj-SID to the pinned node followed by tge Node SID
 of the other adjacency, ans declare pinned node failure when all these ses=
sions fail. This would again ignore failure of the link between the penulti=
mate node and the pinned node but detect various real failures of the pinne=
d node, e.g. failure of its Fabric.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">In any case I think that it woyld make sense to s=
eparate the protection scheme proposed in the draft from specific triggers =
for its activation similar to how this has been
 done in MPLS Egress Protection Framework draft.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">My 2c.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.com/v3/__https:/aka.ms/ghei36__;!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR=
-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH6GPZiIH$" target=3D"_blank">
Outlook for Android</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686id-f74214cb-047a-4c83-9cf4-9a7de0bb1=
03a">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13pt;font-fa=
mily:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">From:</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Shraddha Hegde=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">shraddha@jun=
iper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sent:</span></strong=
> Monday, December 2, 2019, 06:10<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To:</span></strong> =
Alexander Vainshtein; Robert Raszuk<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cc:</span></strong> =
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rt=
gwg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subject:</span></str=
ong> RE: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Pat=
hs<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Robert/Sasha,<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">S-BFD based mechanism is =C2=A0=
head-end triggered protection. It is not a local protection.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">S-BFD mechanism is orthogonal t=
o the mechanism described in this draft and an operator can
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">choose what kind of protection =
makes more sense to his/her network.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In many cases, node-protecting =
backup path will be different from link-protecting/SRLG protecting backup p=
ath.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If you really want to use link-=
protecting backup path when link fails and node protecting backup path when=
 node fails,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">You will have to download both =
link protecting and node-protecting backup paths in FIB and detect which<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">failure really happened and hav=
e the ability in hardware to use appropriate backup path. None of these<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">is in the scope of this documen=
t.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Rgds<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Shraddha<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 23, 2019 8:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;; Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sh=
raddha@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf=
.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
rtgwg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">r=
tg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate node=
s in SR Paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Robert,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">On the second thought, for the purpose of this dr=
aft (i.e. in the scope of SR) it is possible to implement your suggestion b=
y running S-BFD sessions between R7 (as the initiator)
 and each other adjacency of R8=C2=A0 (acting as Reflectors) of a SR policy=
 with list of two SIDs:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">- protected adjacency between R7 and R8</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">- Node SID of the specific &quot;other&quot; adja=
cency=C2=A0 of R8.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">If all these sessions fail, R7 can reliably consi=
der R8 as failed.=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">I am not sure this would be much better than mult=
i-hop IP BFD, and it looks much more complicated to me.=C2=A0</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">What do you think?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/3MR8y7CviGLkS3kzg1UybRv6H2?u=3Dht=
tps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Faka.ms*2Fghei36__*3B*218WoA6=
RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0VmgnYBhAbc*2=
4__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKEl=
C5ktZrPekfTDhLH1YVygZC$" target=3D"_blank">
Outlook for Android</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686id-74ed52be-d7d4-4ced-94d3-671c6f1b4=
e71">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13pt;font-fa=
mily:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">From:</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Alexander Vain=
shtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sent:</span></strong=
> Saturday, November 23, 2019, 13:15<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To:</span></strong> =
Robert Raszuk; Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cc:</span></strong> =
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rt=
gwg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subject:</span></str=
ong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Pat=
hs<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Robert,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Lots of thanks for a prompt response.</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">I respectfully disagree with your statement that =
BFD implementation=C2=A0 is usually offloaded to the HW of the ingress line=
 card.=C2=A0 I do not think this can wor for MH BFD sessions
 because the ingress and egress line cards are not known in advance and cha=
nge with the routing changes</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">A good=C2=A0 multi-hop BFD implementation should =
be ready to overcome this.. There are many ways to achieve that. A naive im=
plementation that runs in SW of the control card is
 also possible of course. And they would sensd and receive packets=C2=A0</s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">My 2c.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/3MR8y7CviGLkS3kzg1UybRv6H2?u=3Dht=
tps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Faka.ms*2Fghei36__*3B*218WoA6=
RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0VmgnYBhAbc*2=
4__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKEl=
C5ktZrPekfTDhLH1YVygZC$" target=3D"_blank">
Outlook for Android</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686id-489fbd3c-6e9f-45dd-96d9-cf663b19a=
a9f">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13pt;font-fa=
mily:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">From:</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Robert Raszuk =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.ne=
t</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sent:</span></strong=
> Saturday, November 23, 2019, 12:37<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To:</span></strong> =
Alexander Vainshtein; Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cc:</span></strong> =
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rt=
gwg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subject:</span></str=
ong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Pat=
hs<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Sasha, <u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On the surface your suggestion =
may look cool - but if you zoom in - I do not think it will work in practic=
e.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">See - one of the biggest value =
of BFD is its offload to line card&#39;s hardware. And in most cases it is =
ingress line card to the box. So if you instruct such hardware to respond t=
o SID address loopback you still did not
 gain much in terms of detection router&#39;s fabric failures, remote LC fa=
ilure or control=C2=A0plane issues which could soon result in box failure. =
The catalogue of router failures is of course much more colorful.=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If you ask BFD to be responded =
by RP/RE it no longer has the BFD advantage.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">IMHO the best way to detect nod=
e failure=C2=A0is actually to send the probes *across* the node under test =
to its peers.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The way I would think of establ=
ishing such m-hop sessions would be fully automated with one knob per IGP a=
dj. ex: &quot;bfd detect-node-failure [max N]&quot; where local BFD subsyst=
em would create N sessions to IGP peers of the
 node we are to protect. LSDB has those peers so no new protocol extension=
=C2=A0is needed, perhaps even no new IETF draft is required :). N would be =
the limit of such sessions in case the node under protection has say 10s of=
 peers. Default could be perhaps even
 1.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thx,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Robert.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:00 A=
M Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0c=
m 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Shraddha, Robert and all,</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Regarding Robert&#39;s question:=C2=A0</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">I wonder if multi-hop IP BFD session with address=
es used as /32 (or /128) prefixes serving as Nose SIDs of R8 and R7 respect=
ively could be used as such a trigger by R7? Such
 a session would not respond to link failures, and I find it problematic to=
 imagine a scenario when it would be kept UP in the case of a real node fai=
lure.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Of course such a session would have to be slow en=
ough not to react to link failures. But it still couks be much faster than =
IGP conversion IMHO.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">My 2c,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Sasha</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Such</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-=
4605818059593462101ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/3NbK72q2ca668aVyMaT7Esn6H2?u=3Dht=
tps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fclicktime.symantec.com*2F3Cf=
VQPtBYBAPbHUSngEVNQD6H2*3Fu*3Dhttps*2A3A*2A2F*2A2Faka.ms*2A2Fghei36__*3BJSU=
lJQ*218WoA6RjC81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0V=
mgujy50EN*24__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap1=
2CMR-J-RTL_O_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH7q73pAh$" target=3D"_blank">
Outlook for Android</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-=
4605818059593462101id-1769abd3-4294-4e88-900e-ba1884f84918">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13pt;font-fa=
mily:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-5135424145297565686gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-=
4605818059593462101divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">From:</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US"> spring &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@rasz=
uk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sent:</span></strong=
> Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:22<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To:</span></strong> =
Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cc:</span></strong> =
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rt=
gwg@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subject:</span></str=
ong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Pat=
hs<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi=C2=A0Shraddha, <u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I have one question to the docu=
ment.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">As you know the critical elemen=
t for=C2=A0the effective protection of any scheme is the failure detection.=
 On that your draft seems to have just one little paragraph:=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 Note that R7 activates the node-protecting backup path when i=
t</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 detects that t=
he link to R8 has failed.=C2=A0 R7 does not know that node</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 R8 has actuall=
y failed.=C2=A0 However, the node-protecting backup path is</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 computed assum=
ing that the failure of the link to R8 implies that R8</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 has failed.</s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Well IMO this is not enough. Sp=
ecifically=C2=A0there can be a lot of types of node failure when link is st=
ill up. Moreover there can be even running BFD across the link just fine wh=
en say fabric failure occurs at R8.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">While this is not solely issue =
with this draft, it is our common IETF failure to provide correct means of =
detecting end to end path or fragments of path failures (I am specifically =
not calling them segment here :).=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">For example I propose that to e=
ffectively detect R8 failure as node failure which is the topic of your pro=
posal a mechanism is clearly defined and includes bi-dir data plane probes =
send between R7-R9, R3-R7, R4-R7, R4-R9,
 R3-R9<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Many thx,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Robert.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 4:38 AM=
 Shraddha Hegde &lt;shraddha=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf..org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0c=
m 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">WG,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This is the draft I pointed out=
 that talks about solutions for providing node-protection.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">It covers Anycast case as well =
as keeping forwarding plane longer.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.c=
om/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/3HvrzHXwAou2JruETj6jcyF6H2?u=3Dhttps*=
3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fclicktime.symantec.com*2F375SW6T=
BGPi2mN7V9YeVWGg6H2*3Fu*3Dhttps*2A3A*2A2F*2A2Ftools.ietf.org*2A2Fhtml*2A2Fd=
raft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-paths-05__*3BJSUlJSU*218WoA6RjC=
81c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0Vmgg0xmj_C*24__=
;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O=
_d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH9RfbOqT$" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
5,99,193)">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-node-protection-f=
or-sr-te-paths-05</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Review and comments solicited.<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Rgds<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Shraddha<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">_______________________________=
________________<br>
rtgwg mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtgwg@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clicktime.symantec.com/37ZvNS=
MSAddpxDGDQPm7oVA6H2?u=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fc=
licktime.symantec.com*2F35M9j5zHTaSYRwVh5RP6xcB6H2*3Fu*3Dhttps*2A3A*2A2F*2A=
2Fwww.ietf.org*2A2Fmailman*2A2Flistinfo*2A2Frtgwg__*3BJSUlJSUl*218WoA6RjC81=
c*21Xo-D7e5MfUeTOyV17KUflgSI002KCmsw_EjxLc9pxA6sJ1EbrioDE0VmgvV9Y4sM*24__;J=
SUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!QAhYaA0qhoUZ3yxQWl05Ap12CMR-J-RTL_O_=
d_wKElC5ktZrPekfTDhLH_pG5Prx$" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/rtgwg</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000a223b50598b57f1c--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:44:34 -0500
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmVRcJN-YkOpP-8SKnHMVWYoJRmj+3JqzBsEYecvLjQ+Hw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Node failure detection (was Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes in SR Paths)
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>,  Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "rtgwg@ietf.org" <rtgwg@ietf.org>
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Hi Sasha, et al.,
many thanks for the great discussion. Please correct me if my recollection
is not accurate, but at the time of RFC 4090 it was agreed, that a trigger
to local protection may be in fact a false negative and, as a result, the
protection switchover is suboptimal. I understand that as the realization
that there should be a practical and pragmatic balance between time to
detect a failure and the accuracy of characterizing it. I think, that the
draft Shraddha had mentioned, doesn't need to discuss any of these issues.
What I'm curious, as you've suggested to the possible use of S-BFD, what
then the detection time could be. Unlike with the asynchronous mode of BFD,
S-BFD, as I understand, doesn't have predictable detection time like
defined in Section 6.8.4 RFC 5880. The detection time by S-BFD, I believe,
characterizes RTT and RTT may vary from probe to probe significantly. True,
a system may gather S-BFD RTT statistics to set and periodically adjust the
detection time to achieve more accurate failure detection. But, in my view,
it seems like significant complexity comparing to RFC 5880.

Regards,
Greg

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 9:45 AM Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

> Robert,
> On the second thought, for the purpose of this draft (i.e. in the scope of
> SR) it is possible to implement your suggestion by running S-BFD sessions
> between R7 (as the initiator) and each other adjacency of R8  (acting as
> Reflectors) of a SR policy with list of two SIDs:
> - protected adjacency between R7 and R8
> - Node SID of the specific "other" adjacency  of R8.
>
> If all these sessions fail, R7 can reliably consider R8 as failed.
>
> I am not sure this would be much better than multi-hop IP BFD, and it
> looks much more complicated to me.
>
>
> What do you think?
>
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 23, 2019, 13:15
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Shraddha Hegde
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes
> in SR Paths
>
> Robert,
> Lots of thanks for a prompt response.
>
> I respectfully disagree with your statement that BFD implementation  is
> usually offloaded to the HW of the ingress line card.  I do not think this
> can wor for MH BFD sessions because the ingress and egress line cards are
> not known in advance and change with the routing changes
> A good  multi-hop BFD implementation should be ready to overcome this..
> There are many ways to achieve that. A naive implementation that runs in SW
> of the control card is also possible of course. And they would sensd and
> receive packets
>
> My 2c.
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 23, 2019, 12:37
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein; Shraddha Hegde
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org; rtg-bfd@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes
> in SR Paths
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> On the surface your suggestion may look cool - but if you zoom in - I do
> not think it will work in practice.
>
> See - one of the biggest value of BFD is its offload to line card's
> hardware. And in most cases it is ingress line card to the box. So if you
> instruct such hardware to respond to SID address loopback you still did not
> gain much in terms of detection router's fabric failures, remote LC failure
> or control plane issues which could soon result in box failure. The
> catalogue of router failures is of course much more colorful.
>
> If you ask BFD to be responded by RP/RE it no longer has the BFD
> advantage.
>
> IMHO the best way to detect node failure is actually to send the probes
> *across* the node under test to its peers.
>
> The way I would think of establishing such m-hop sessions would be fully
> automated with one knob per IGP adj. ex: "bfd detect-node-failure [max N]"
> where local BFD subsystem would create N sessions to IGP peers of the node
> we are to protect. LSDB has those peers so no new protocol extension is
> needed, perhaps even no new IETF draft is required :). N would be the limit
> of such sessions in case the node under protection has say 10s of peers.
> Default could be perhaps even 1.
>
> Thx,
> Robert.
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:00 AM Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
>> Shraddha, Robert and all,
>> Regarding Robert's question:
>> I wonder if multi-hop IP BFD session with addresses used as /32 (or /128)
>> prefixes serving as Nose SIDs of R8 and R7 respectively could be used as
>> such a trigger by R7? Such a session would not respond to link failures,
>> and I find it problematic to imagine a scenario when it would be kept UP in
>> the case of a real node failure.
>>
>> Of course such a session would have to be slow enough not to react to
>> link failures. But it still couks be much faster than IGP conversion IMHO.
>>
>> My 2c,
>> Sasha
>>
>> Such
>>
>>
>> Get Outlook for Android
>> <https://clicktime.symantec.com/3CfVQPtBYBAPbHUSngEVNQD6H2?u=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <
>> robert@raszuk.net>
>> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:22
>> *To:* Shraddha Hegde
>> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of intermediate nodes
>> in SR Paths
>>
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>
>> I have one question to the document.
>>
>> As you know the critical element for the effective protection of any
>> scheme is the failure detection. On that your draft seems to have just one
>> little paragraph:
>>
>>    Note that R7 activates the node-protecting backup path when it
>>    detects that the link to R8 has failed.  R7 does not know that node
>>    R8 has actually failed.  However, the node-protecting backup path is
>>    computed assuming that the failure of the link to R8 implies that R8
>>    has failed.
>>
>>
>> Well IMO this is not enough. Specifically there can be a lot of types of
>> node failure when link is still up. Moreover there can be even running BFD
>> across the link just fine when say fabric failure occurs at R8.
>>
>> While this is not solely issue with this draft, it is our common IETF
>> failure to provide correct means of detecting end to end path or fragments
>> of path failures (I am specifically not calling them segment here :).
>>
>> For example I propose that to effectively detect R8 failure as node
>> failure which is the topic of your proposal a mechanism is clearly defined
>> and includes bi-dir data plane probes send between R7-R9, R3-R7, R4-R7,
>> R4-R9, R3-R9
>>
>> Many thx,
>> Robert.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 4:38 AM Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=
>> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf..org <40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>>
>>> WG,
>>>
>>> This is the draft I pointed out that talks about solutions for providing
>>> node-protection.
>>> It covers Anycast case as well as keeping forwarding plane longer.
>>>
>>> *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-paths-05*
>>> <https://clicktime.symantec.com/375SW6TBGPi2mN7V9YeVWGg6H2?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-paths-05>
>>>
>>> Review and comments solicited.
>>>
>>> Rgds
>>> Shraddha
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rtgwg mailing list
>>> rtgwg@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg
>>> <https://clicktime.symantec.com/35M9j5zHTaSYRwVh5RP6xcB6H2?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frtgwg>
>>
>>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>
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--000000000000e6d85e0598b99e9a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Sasha, et al.,</div><div>many thanks f=
or the great discussion. Please correct me if my recollection is not accura=
te, but at the time of RFC 4090 it was agreed, that a trigger to local prot=
ection may be in fact a false negative and, as a result, the protection swi=
tchover is suboptimal. I understand that as the realization that there shou=
ld be a practical and pragmatic balance between time to detect a failure an=
d the accuracy of characterizing it. I think, that the draft Shraddha had m=
entioned, doesn&#39;t need to discuss any of these issues.</div><div>What I=
&#39;m curious, as you&#39;ve suggested to the possible use of S-BFD, what =
then the detection time could be. Unlike with the asynchronous mode of BFD,=
 S-BFD, as I understand, doesn&#39;t have predictable detection time like d=
efined in Section 6.8.4 RFC 5880. The detection time by S-BFD, I believe, c=
haracterizes RTT and RTT may vary from probe to probe significantly. True, =
a system may gather S-BFD RTT statistics to set and periodically adjust the=
 detection time to achieve more accurate failure detection. But, in my view=
, it seems like significant complexity comparing to RFC 5880.</div><div><br=
></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 9:45 AM Alexande=
r Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex">



<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
Robert,</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
On the second thought, for the purpose of this draft (i.e. in the scope of =
SR) it is possible to implement your suggestion by running S-BFD sessions b=
etween R7 (as the initiator) and each other adjacency of R8=C2=A0 (acting a=
s Reflectors) of a SR policy with list
 of two SIDs:</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
- protected adjacency between R7 and R8</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
- Node SID of the specific &quot;other&quot; adjacency=C2=A0 of R8.</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
If all these sessions fail, R7 can reliably consider R8 as failed.=C2=A0</d=
iv>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
I am not sure this would be much better than multi-hop IP BFD, and it looks=
 much more complicated to me.=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
What do you think?</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-al=
ign:left" dir=3D"auto">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-6621722641807549552ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<div><br>
</div>
Get <a href=3D"https://aka.ms/ghei36" target=3D"_blank">Outlook for Android=
</a></div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-6621722641807549552id-74ed52be-d7d4-4ced-94d3-671c6f1b4=
e71">
<div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br=
>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-6621722641807549552divRplyFwdMsg"><strong>From:</strong=
> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Saturday, November 23, 2019, 13:15<br>
<strong>To:</strong> Robert Raszuk; Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong>Cc:</strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">s=
pring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg=
wg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-=
bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of interme=
diate nodes in SR Paths<br>
</div>
<br>

<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
Robert,</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
Lots of thanks for a prompt response.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
I respectfully disagree with your statement that BFD implementation=C2=A0 i=
s usually offloaded to the HW of the ingress line card.=C2=A0 I do not thin=
k this can wor for MH BFD sessions because the ingress and egress line card=
s are not known in advance and change with
 the routing changes</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
A good=C2=A0 multi-hop BFD implementation should be ready to overcome this.=
. There are many ways to achieve that. A naive implementation that runs in =
SW of the control card is also possible of course. And they would sensd and=
 receive packets=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
My 2c.</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-6621722641807549552ms-outlook-mobile-signature">Get <a =
href=3D"https://aka.ms/ghei36" target=3D"_blank">Outlook for Android</a></d=
iv>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-6621722641807549552id-489fbd3c-6e9f-45dd-96d9-cf663b19a=
a9f">
<div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br=
>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-6621722641807549552divRplyFwdMsg"><strong>From:</strong=
> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">=
robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Saturday, November 23, 2019, 12:37<br>
<strong>To:</strong> Alexander Vainshtein; Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong>Cc:</strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">s=
pring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg=
wg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-=
bfd@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of interme=
diate nodes in SR Paths<br>
</div>
<br>

<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Sasha,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On the surface your suggestion may look cool - but if you zoom in - I =
do not think it will work in practice.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>See - one of the biggest value of BFD is its offload to line card&#39;=
s hardware. And in most cases it is ingress line card to the box. So if you=
 instruct such hardware to respond to SID address loopback you still did no=
t gain much in terms of detection router&#39;s
 fabric failures, remote LC failure or control=C2=A0plane issues which coul=
d soon result in box failure. The catalogue of router failures is of course=
 much more colorful.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you ask BFD to be responded by RP/RE it no longer has the BFD advan=
tage.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>IMHO the best way to detect node failure=C2=A0is actually to send the =
probes *across* the node under test to its peers.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The way I would think of establishing such m-hop sessions would be ful=
ly automated with one knob per IGP adj. ex: &quot;bfd detect-node-failure [=
max N]&quot; where local BFD subsystem would create N sessions to IGP peers=
 of the node we are to protect. LSDB has those
 peers so no new protocol extension=C2=A0is needed, perhaps even no new IET=
F draft is required :). N would be the limit of such sessions in case the n=
ode under protection has say 10s of peers. Default could be perhaps even 1.=
=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thx,</div>
<div>Robert.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:00 AM Alex=
ander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
Shraddha, Robert and all,<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
Regarding Robert&#39;s question:=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
I wonder if multi-hop IP BFD session with addresses used as /32 (or /128) p=
refixes serving as Nose SIDs of R8 and R7 respectively could be used as suc=
h a trigger by R7? Such a session would not respond to link failures, and I=
 find it problematic to imagine
 a scenario when it would be kept UP in the case of a real node failure.</d=
iv>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
Of course such a session would have to be slow enough not to react to link =
failures. But it still couks be much faster than IGP conversion IMHO.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
My 2c,</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
Sasha</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
Such</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-align:left">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-6621722641807549552gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-=
4605818059593462101ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<div><br>
</div>
Get <a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/3CfVQPtBYBAPbHUSngEVNQD6H2?u=
=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36" target=3D"_blank">
Outlook for Android</a></div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-6621722641807549552gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-=
4605818059593462101id-1769abd3-4294-4e88-900e-ba1884f84918">
<div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br=
>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-6621722641807549552gmail-m_8350984258442686152gmail-m_-=
4605818059593462101divRplyFwdMsg"><strong>From:</strong> spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:22<br>
<strong>To:</strong> Shraddha Hegde<br>
<strong>Cc:</strong> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">s=
pring@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtgwg@ietf.org</a><br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [spring] Draft for Node protection of interme=
diate nodes in SR Paths<br>
</div>
<br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi=C2=A0Shraddha,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have one question to the document.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As you know the critical element for=C2=A0the effective protection of =
any scheme is the failure detection. On that your draft seems to have just =
one little paragraph:=C2=A0<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-be=
fore:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   Note that R7 activates the node-protecting b=
ackup path when it
   detects that the link to R8 has failed.  R7 does not know that node
   R8 has actually failed.  However, the node-protecting backup path is
   computed assuming that the failure of the link to R8 implies that R8
   has failed.</pre>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well IMO this is not enough. Specifically=C2=A0there can be a lot of t=
ypes of node failure when link is still up. Moreover there can be even runn=
ing BFD across the link just fine when say fabric failure occurs at R8.=C2=
=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While this is not solely issue with this draft, it is our common IETF =
failure to provide correct means of detecting end to end path or fragments =
of path failures (I am specifically not calling them segment here :).=C2=A0=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example I propose that to effectively detect R8 failure as node fa=
ilure which is the topic of your proposal a mechanism is clearly defined an=
d includes bi-dir data plane probes send between R7-R9, R3-R7, R4-R7, R4-R9=
, R3-R9</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Many thx,</div>
<div>Robert.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 4:38 AM Shrad=
dha Hegde &lt;shraddha=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf..org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">
<div>WG,</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>This is the draft I pointed out that talks about solutions for providi=
ng node-protection.</div>
<div>It covers Anycast case as well as keeping forwarding plane longer.</di=
v>
<div><a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/375SW6TBGPi2mN7V9YeVWGg6H2?u=
=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-hegde-spring-node-protection=
-for-sr-te-paths-05" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"#0563C1"><u>https://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-paths-05</u=
></font></a></div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Review and comments solicited.</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Rgds</div>
<div>Shraddha</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</span></font></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
rtgwg mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtgwg@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://clicktime.symantec.com/35M9j5zHTaSYRwVh5RP6xcB6H2?u=3Dht=
tps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frtgwg" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg</a></blockquot=
e>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br clear=3D"both">
___________________________________________________________________________=
<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is <br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
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</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000e6d85e0598b99e9a--


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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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Greg,

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 01:27:58PM -0800, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> Dear All,
> this version includes the update to the Security Considerations section
> regarding the use of an internal host loopback address as the destination
> IP address of the inner IP header, as discussed at the meeting in Singapore.

Thank you.  I believe this closes the last open issue.

I will submit this to the IESG.

Thanks everyone who provided feedback on this document.

-- Jeff


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Optimizing BFD Authentication
        Authors         : Mahesh Jethanandani
                          Ashesh Mishra
                          Ankur Saxena
                          Manav Bhatia
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-09.txt
	Pages           : 7
	Date            : 2019-12-09

Abstract:
   This document describes an optimization to BFD Authentication as
   described in Section 6.7 of BFD RFC5880.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-09
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bfd-optimizing-authentication-09


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until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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Mirja KÃ¼hlewind has entered the following ballot position for
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This document describes the use of BFD in VXLAN, however, it does not specify
any new protocol elements or extension. Therefore I would expect such a
document to be informational. The shepherd write-up doesn't give any additional
information about why this doc is PS.



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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

UPDATE: I didn't not see a reply to the original issue raised by the TSV-ART
review (Thanks Olivier!). Please have a lock and provide a response. I don't
think this raises discuss level but I think some clarifications would be good!

This document describes the use of BFD in VXLAN, however, it does not specify
any new protocol elements or extension. Therefore I would expect such a
document to be informational. The shepherd write-up doesn't give any additional
information about why this doc is PS.



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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: Mirja =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FChlewind?= <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-bfd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Mirja =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FChlewind'?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?s?= No Objection on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with COMMENT)
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Mirja,

On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 04:38:30AM -0800, Mirja Kühlewind via Datatracker wrote:
> This document describes the use of BFD in VXLAN, however, it does not specify
> any new protocol elements or extension. Therefore I would expect such a
> document to be informational. The shepherd write-up doesn't give any additional
> information about why this doc is PS.

The chairs did ask Martin to enquire from the IESG what level of standards
this document should target.  We realize that the base vxlan spec (oddly) is
Informational, however we were encouraged at multiple points to go for
Proposed standard.

Martin theoretically enquired of the IESG, but got no answer.  We were told
on November 6 to go ahead with Proposed.

The BFD Working Group is ambivalent about the level of standard for this
document.  My request is that the IESG provide some level of consistent
guidance here rather than your single comment. :-)

I leave it to our AD, Martin, to summarize back the final status of your
collective deliberations and we shall update the document accordingly.

-- Jeff


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 08:41:38 -0800
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Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft=2Dietf=2Dbf?= =?UTF-8?Q?d=2Dvxlan=2D09=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?=
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org,  Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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--0000000000003daf1e05995c30b8
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Hi Mirja and Olivier,
I apologize that some of Olivier's comments were not addressed. I've
responded to Olivier's detailed comments in
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rtg-bfd/?q=3DTsvart%20last%20call.=
 I
much appreciate your help in identifying the remaining questions and
comments.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 5:22 AM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> UPDATE: I didn't not see a reply to the original issue raised by the
> TSV-ART
> review (Thanks Olivier!). Please have a lock and provide a response. I
> don't
> think this raises discuss level but I think some clarifications would be
> good!
>
> This document describes the use of BFD in VXLAN, however, it does not
> specify
> any new protocol elements or extension. Therefore I would expect such a
> document to be informational. The shepherd write-up doesn't give any
> additional
> information about why this doc is PS.
>
>
>

--0000000000003daf1e05995c30b8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Mirja and Olivier,<div>I apologize that some of Olivier=
&#39;s comments were not addressed. I&#39;ve responded to Olivier&#39;s det=
ailed comments=C2=A0in=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/br=
owse/rtg-bfd/?q=3DTsvart%20last%20call">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/b=
rowse/rtg-bfd/?q=3DTsvart%20last%20call</a>. I much appreciate your help in=
 identifying the remaining questions and comments.=C2=A0</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 5:22 AM Mirja K=
=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">norep=
ly@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position f=
or<br>
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tatement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bf=
d-vxlan/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
UPDATE: I didn&#39;t not see a reply to the original issue raised by the TS=
V-ART<br>
review (Thanks Olivier!). Please have a lock and provide a response. I don&=
#39;t<br>
think this raises discuss level but I think some clarifications would be go=
od!<br>
<br>
This document describes the use of BFD in VXLAN, however, it does not speci=
fy<br>
any new protocol elements or extension. Therefore I would expect such a<br>
document to be informational. The shepherd write-up doesn&#39;t give any ad=
ditional<br>
information about why this doc is PS.<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000003daf1e05995c30b8--


From nobody Tue Dec 10 09:13:10 2019
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Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 18:13:00 +0100
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Hi Greg,

I also saw that you replied to Carlos comments but I don=E2=80=99t think =
I saw a reply to Olivier=E2=80=99s initial mail. The link you=E2=80=99ve =
sent below seems also a link to one of Carlos replies.

See here for Olivier=E2=80=99s review:

=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07-tsvart-lc-bonave=
nture-2019-05-31/

Mirja



> On 10. Dec 2019, at 17:41, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Mirja and Olivier,
> I apologize that some of Olivier's comments were not addressed. I've =
responded to Olivier's detailed comments in =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rtg-bfd/?q=3DTsvart%20last%20call=
. I much appreciate your help in identifying the remaining questions and =
comments.=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Greg
>=20
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 5:22 AM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker =
<noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection
>=20
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>=20
>=20
> Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>=20
>=20
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> UPDATE: I didn't not see a reply to the original issue raised by the =
TSV-ART
> review (Thanks Olivier!). Please have a lock and provide a response. I =
don't
> think this raises discuss level but I think some clarifications would =
be good!
>=20
> This document describes the use of BFD in VXLAN, however, it does not =
specify
> any new protocol elements or extension. Therefore I would expect such =
a
> document to be informational. The shepherd write-up doesn't give any =
additional
> information about why this doc is PS.
>=20
>=20


From nobody Fri Dec 13 15:58:24 2019
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 15:58:00 -0800
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Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft=2Dietf=2Dbf?= =?UTF-8?Q?d=2Dvxlan=2D09=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?=
To: Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org,  Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Hi Mirja,
my apologies for the delayed response and inaccurate reference to my
response to Olivier's comments. I've responded to his comments on June 17th
with this email
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/yCJ3ItIjT5j5rSgrargnQM-Sx-0.
Please let me know if I've missed to address, through two updates to the
document, any of Olivier's comments.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 9:13 AM Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> I also saw that you replied to Carlos comments but I don=E2=80=99t think =
I saw a
> reply to Olivier=E2=80=99s initial mail. The link you=E2=80=99ve sent bel=
ow seems also a
> link to one of Carlos replies.
>
> See here for Olivier=E2=80=99s review:
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07-tsvart-lc-bonav=
enture-2019-05-31/
>
> Mirja
>
>
>
> > On 10. Dec 2019, at 17:41, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mirja and Olivier,
> > I apologize that some of Olivier's comments were not addressed. I've
> responded to Olivier's detailed comments in
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rtg-bfd/?q=3DTsvart%20last%20cal=
l.
> I much appreciate your help in identifying the remaining questions and
> comments.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 5:22 AM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> > draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection
> >
> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> > introductory paragraph, however.)
> >
> >
> > Please refer to
> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >
> >
> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > COMMENT:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > UPDATE: I didn't not see a reply to the original issue raised by the
> TSV-ART
> > review (Thanks Olivier!). Please have a lock and provide a response. I
> don't
> > think this raises discuss level but I think some clarifications would b=
e
> good!
> >
> > This document describes the use of BFD in VXLAN, however, it does not
> specify
> > any new protocol elements or extension. Therefore I would expect such a
> > document to be informational. The shepherd write-up doesn't give any
> additional
> > information about why this doc is PS.
> >
> >
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Mirja,<div>my apologies for the delayed response and in=
accurate reference to my response to Olivier&#39;s comments. I&#39;ve respo=
nded to his comments on June 17th with this=C2=A0email=C2=A0<a href=3D"http=
s://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/yCJ3ItIjT5j5rSgrargnQM-Sx-0">http=
s://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/yCJ3ItIjT5j5rSgrargnQM-Sx-0</a>. =
Please let me know if I&#39;ve missed to address, through two updates to th=
e document, any of Olivier&#39;s comments.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards=
,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 9:13 AM Mirja Kuehlewind &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net">ietf@kuehlewind.net</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Greg,<br>
<br>
I also saw that you replied to Carlos comments but I don=E2=80=99t think I =
saw a reply to Olivier=E2=80=99s initial mail. The link you=E2=80=99ve sent=
 below seems also a link to one of Carlos replies.<br>
<br>
See here for Olivier=E2=80=99s review:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07-tsvart=
-lc-bonaventure-2019-05-31/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://d=
atatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-bfd-vxlan-07-tsvart-lc-bonaventure-2019=
-05-31/</a><br>
<br>
Mirja<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; On 10. Dec 2019, at 17:41, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Mirja and Olivier,<br>
&gt; I apologize that some of Olivier&#39;s comments were not addressed. I&=
#39;ve responded to Olivier&#39;s detailed comments in <a href=3D"https://m=
ailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rtg-bfd/?q=3DTsvart%20last%20call" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rtg-b=
fd/?q=3DTsvart%20last%20call</a>. I much appreciate your help in identifyin=
g the remaining questions and comments. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Greg<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 5:22 AM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<=
br>
&gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi=
s<br>
&gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss=
-criteria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/i=
esg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
&gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br=
>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-bfd-vxlan/</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; COMMENT:<br>
&gt; ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; UPDATE: I didn&#39;t not see a reply to the original issue raised by t=
he TSV-ART<br>
&gt; review (Thanks Olivier!). Please have a lock and provide a response. I=
 don&#39;t<br>
&gt; think this raises discuss level but I think some clarifications would =
be good!<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This document describes the use of BFD in VXLAN, however, it does not =
specify<br>
&gt; any new protocol elements or extension. Therefore I would expect such =
a<br>
&gt; document to be informational. The shepherd write-up doesn&#39;t give a=
ny additional<br>
&gt; information about why this doc is PS.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000069930305999ea2fa--


From nobody Mon Dec 16 15:43:22 2019
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From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a few points that I think merit IESG discussion.

(1) I see that several directorate reviewers expressed unease at the
destination (IP and) MAC address assignment procedure for the inner
VXLAN headers, and appreciate that there was extensive on-list
discussion (more than I could follow).  That said, I failed to find a
clear statement of why the current text is believed to be safe, and in
fact my reading of the current text is that the described procedure is
*not* safe.  Pointers to key parts of the WG discusison would be more
than welcome!

To take something of a high-level view of my concerns, if we think of
the VXLAN as being a tunnel between VTEPs that carry encapsulated tenant
traffic, then what we're trying to do is roughly like BFD between VTEPs,
but we want to get fault-detection over as broad a coverage as we can
(the "outermost part of the tunnel"), so we want to have the option of
per-VNI BFD instead of just endpoint-to-endpoint (VTEP-to-VTEP).
However, we end up having to do this by trying to insert a thin filter
into the tenant's address space (i.e., the inner VXLAN header) and pick
out the specific stream of BFD traffic that we're introducing.  This is,
in some sense, a namespace grab in what is conceptually the tenant's
namespace, and we have to be careful that what we do is either
guaranteed to not impact the tenant or well-documented and
compartmentalized (akin to the "well-known URIs").

I've made comments at several places in the document that are more
directly tied to specific pieces of text, but in general, if we assume
that the tenant can add/remove new addresses at will within their VXLAN
abstration, then any attempt to preconfigure by mutual agreement the BFD
addresses to use at the VTEPs or to use the VTEP's normal (outer)
address as the sentinel value seems subject to the tenant coming in and
subsequently trying to use that address, leading to (some of) the
tenant's traffic getting silently filtered and interpreted by the VTEP.
If we were using domain names as identifiers, we could allocate
something under .arpa or similar, but I think our options are more
limited when numerical addresses are used.

The option suggested by the rtg-dir reviewer of always using the
management VNI does not suffer from this namespacing issue, though I
recognize that it does reduce the scope over which fault-detection is
available, for the cases when different VNIs' traffic are routed or
handled differently.

(2) Section 6 says:

                                                         The selection
   of the VNI number of the Management VNI MUST be controlled through
   management plane.  An implementation MAY use VNI number 1 as the
   default value for the Management VNI.  All VXLAN packets received on
   the Management VNI MUST be processed locally and MUST NOT be
   forwarded to a tenant.

It seems like the management VNI concept is something that would apply
to the entire VXLAN deployment and not just to the BFD-using portions;
is this already defined somewhere (in which case we should reference
it), or is it new with this document?  In the latter case wouldn't it be
an update to the core VXLAN spec?  (I note that there are some
procedural hoops to jump through for an IETF-stream document to update
an ISE-stream document...)


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Section 1

   In the case where a Multicast Service Node (MSN) (as described in
   Section 3.3 of [RFC8293]) resides behind a Network Virtualization
   Endpoint (NVE), the mechanisms described in this document apply and
   can, therefore, be used to test the connectivity from the source NVE
   to the MSN.

I'm not sure that I'm parsing "resides behind" properly.  Is the idea
that the multicast traffic starts off at a tenant-system source, hits a
NVE gateway to enter the VXLAN, traverses the VXLAN a bit before getting
to the MSN, and is replicated from the MSN to various NVE termini?  I
think I'd be less confused if this was described as "participates in the
VXLAN" or "is part of the virtualized environment", as the current
"behind" wording makes me think of a firewall-like topology where the
NVE behind which the MSN resides will be decapsulating traffic.

   This document describes the use of Bidirectional Forwarding Detection
   (BFD) protocol to enable monitoring continuity of the path between
   VXLAN VTEPs, performing as Network Virtualization Endpoints, and/or
   availability of a replicator multicast service node.

All the commas here potentially make the parsing ambiguous; assuming
that the "performing as Network Virtualization Endpoints" is just
describing the VXLAN VTEPs, I'd suggest do drop the first comma and
instead join those clauses with "that are".

Section 3

   between the same pair of VTEPs.  BFD packets intended for a VTEP MUST
   NOT be forwarded to a VM as a VM may drop BFD packets leading to a
   false negative.  This method is applicable whether the VTEP is a

[This "MUST NOT" is a very strict requirement, so we have to be sure that
it's achievable without disruption to tenant traffic, per the Discuss
point]

   At the same time, a service layer BFD session may be used between the
   tenants of VTEPs IP1 and IP2 to provide end-to-end fault management.
   In such case, for VTEPs BFD Control packets of that session are
   indistinguishable from data packets.

nit(?): I suggest s/indistinguishable from/regular/ -- the tenants' BFD
sessions are just regular data to the VXLAN infrastructure, though IIUC
a VTEP could, if so inclined, peek inside and "distinguish" them from
non-BFD tenant data based on on heuristics and packet format.

   0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6).  There could be a firewall
   configured on VTEP to block loopback addresses if set as the
   destination IP in the inner IP header.  It is RECOMMENDED to allow
   addresses from the loopback range through a firewall only if it is
   used as the destination IP address in the inner IP header, and the
   destination UDP port is set to 3784 [RFC5881].

I think we should reword this to make it clear that the default behavior
is still "block all incoming traffic with loopback destination" and that
the exception is tightly scoped to the encapsulated VXLAN traffic
discussed in this document and the specific destination port *and when
BFD has been configured for the VTEP*.  I note that well-known ports are
not reserved ports, and we have no guarangee that only a BFD
implementation would be listening on port 3784.
I think the rewording would include some phrasing like "RECOMMENDED that
the only firewall exception to allow incoming traffic with destination
address from the loopback range is when [...]", and of course, mention
the need to have BFD configured.

Section 4

   VXLAN packet.  The choice of Destination MAC and Destination IP
   addresses for the inner Ethernet frame MUST ensure that the BFD
   Control packet is not forwarded to a tenant but is processed locally
   at the remote VTEP.  [...]

This has to be 100% reliable, and I think we need to provide some
example mechanism that has that property even if we don't mandate that
it be the only allowed mechanism.

         Destination MAC: This MUST NOT be of one of tenant's MAC
         addresses.  The destination MAC address MAY be the address

But the tenant can start using new MAC addresses at any time!  How is
BFD-over-VXLAN going to dynamically detect and avoid that?

         associated with the destination VTEP.  The MAC address MAY be
         configured, or it MAY be learned via a control plane protocol.
         The details of how the MAC address is obtained are outside the
         scope of this document.

This all talks about the MAC address being relatively static
configuration, but per above, I don't think that's safe in the face of a
MUST-level requirement to avoid conflicting with tenant MAC addresses.

      IP header:

         Destination IP: IP address MUST NOT be of one of tenant's IP
         addresses.  The IP address SHOULD be selected from the range
         127/8 for IPv4, for IPv6 - from the range
         0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104.  Alternatively, the destination IP
         address MAY be set to VTEP's IP address.

As for MAC addresses, can't the tenant start using new ones at any time?
Loopback is mostly safe in that the tenant generally shouldn't expect
incoming traffic to that destination address ... but what if the tenant
is also using a BFD scheme that expects incoming (single-hop) packets to
loopback as an exception to RFC 1122?
nit: please use a parallel grammatical construction for describing the
IPv4 and IPv6 recommended behavior.

         TTL or Hop Limit: MUST be set to 1 to ensure that the BFD
         packet is not routed within the Layer 3 underlay network.  This
         addresses the scenario when the inner IP destination address is
         of VXLAN gateway and there is a router in underlay which
         removes the VXLAN header, then it is possible to route the
         packet as VXLAN  gateway address is routable address.

nit: the grammar here is a bit wonky; I think the following preserves
the meaning with better grammar:

%        TTL or Hop Limit: MUST be set to 1 to ensure that the BFD
%        packet is not routed within the Layer 3 underlay network.  This
%        addresses the scenario where the inner IP destination address is
%        that of a VXLAN gateway and there is a router in the underlay
%        that removes the VXLAN header; in such cases it is possible for
%        the packet to be routed, as the VXLAN gateway's address is a
%        routable address.

Section 5

   Once a packet is received, VTEP MUST validate the packet.  If the
   Destination MAC of the inner Ethernet frame matches one of the MAC
   addresses associated with the VTEP the packet MUST be processed
   further.  If the Destination MAC of the inner Ethernet frame doesn't

What prevents the scenario where the MAC address associated with the
VTEP is also in use by the tenant?

   match any of VTEP's MAC addresses, then the processing of the
   received VXLAN packet MUST follow the procedures described in
   Section 4.1 [RFC7348].  If the BFD session is using the Management
   VNI (Section 6), BFD Control packets with unknown MAC address MUST
   NOT be forwarded to VMs.

nit: either "an unknown" or "MAC addresses"

   The UDP destination port and the TTL of the inner IP packet MUST be
   validated to determine if the received packet can be processed by
   BFD.

Can you give a pointer to or description of what this validation
consists of?

Section 5.1

   case of VXLAN, the VNI number identifies that logical link.  If BFD
   packet is received with non-zero Your Discriminator, then BFD session
   MUST be demultiplexed only with Your Discriminator as the key.

nits: "If a BFD packet", "then the BFD session"

Section 6

   In most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient for the given VTEP
   to monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP, regardless of the
   number of VNIs.  When the single BFD session is used to monitor the
   reachability of the remote VTEP, an implementation SHOULD choose any
   of the VNIs.  An implementation MAY support the use of the Management

nit: I feel like this is trying to say that the choice is arbitrary and it
doesn't matter which one is picked, but "SHOULD choose any of" is more
of a recommendation to make a choice than guidance on how to make that
choice, as written.

Section 9

I think we need to discuss the risk/potential consequences of a VTEP
failing to properly filter BFD traffic and incorrectly passing it
through to the tenant.

Relatedly, I'd also consider discussing the case of a mixed deployment
where one peer attempts to speak BFD-VXLAN to a peer that does not
implement that mechanism.

   The document requires setting the inner IP TTL to 1, which could be
   used as a DDoS attack vector.  Thus the implementation MUST have

An attack vector on what part of the system?



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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I support Ben Kadukâ€™s DISCUSS position.

* Section 9. Per â€œThe document requires setting the inner IP TTL to 1, which
could be used as a DDoS attack vectorâ€, could you please clarify what part(s)
of the notional architecture would be impacted (e.g., physical, virtual; and
how)?

* Section 9. Per:
   Thus the implementation MUST have
   throttling in place to control the rate of BFD Control packets sent
   to the control plane.  On the other hand, over-aggressive throttling
   of BFD Control packets may become the cause of the inability to form
   and maintain BFD session at scale.  Hence, throttling of BFD Control
   packets SHOULD be adjusted to permit BFD to work according to its
   procedures.

Iâ€™m having difficulty parsing the guidance above â€“ it points out the need to
throttle and the ramifications of doing so.  Per the last sentence, could you
please clarify how the throttling should be calibrated.

* Section 9.  Per â€œthis specification does not raise any additional security
issues beyond those of the specifications referred to in the list of normative
referencesâ€, I recommend being clearer which references you mean (i.e., Iâ€™m
assuming you donâ€™t mean RFC2119, RFC8174, etc.)

* Editorial Nits:
- Abstract. s/forming up/used to form/

- Section 9. s/such address/such an address/



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Reviewer: Erik Kline
Review result: Ready with Nits

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Document: draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-??
Reviewer: Erik Kline
Review Date: 2019-12-16
IETF LC End Date: None
IESG Telechat date: 2019-12-19

Summary:

-09 addresses my concerns from -07.  Thank you for this.

The one "nit" is that it seems to have introduced a recommendation to use
::ffff:7f00:0/104 as an IPv6 loopback prefix.  (a) This document should follow
the format recommendations of RFC 5952 section 4.3 and lowercase the "F"s.  But
(b) more importantly, I'm not sure how implementations may treats this space.

The use of an RFC4291 section-2.5.5.2 mapped v4 address doesn't necessarily
make the packet a part of an IPv6 connection.  Nevertheless, I'm not sure I
have a strong feeling about this as it may still exercise enough of the IPv6
stack in a VTEP.

I definitely do think that in the case of BFD on the management VNI targeting
an IPv6 link-local address of the VTEP would be better.  However, I expect that
if ::ffff:127.0.0.0 does prove to have some issues in the future a -bis can be
written quickly with a recommendation.

Also, Suresh may have ideas for a solution.

Major issues:

Minor issues:

Nits/editorial comments:



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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I support Benâ€™s DISCUSS.  In addition, I have a number of editorial comments.

General: there are a lot of missing or incorrect articles, making the document
harder to read than it should be.  It would be good to fix that.  If you let
the RFC Editor fix it, it will require careful review during AUTH48 to make
sure itâ€™s correct.

â€” Abstract â€”
The phrase â€œforming upâ€ is odd; I suggest just â€œformingâ€.

â€” Section 3 â€”

   BFD packets intended for a VTEP MUST
   NOT be forwarded to a VM as a VM may drop BFD packets leading to a
   false negative.

This needs two commas: one before â€œasâ€ and one before â€œleadingâ€.  And what does
â€œleading to a false negativeâ€ mean here?  I donâ€™t understand.

   It is RECOMMENDED to allow
   addresses from the loopback range through a firewall only if it is
   used as the destination IP address in the inner IP header, and the
   destination UDP port is set to 3784 [RFC5881].

I THINK the antecedent for â€œitâ€ is meant to be â€œaddresses from the loopback
rangeâ€, though because of the number mismatch it looks like the antecedent is
â€œa firewallâ€.  One fix is to change â€œaddressesâ€ to â€œan addressâ€, correcting the
number error, but that leaves the ambiguity.  Maybe betterto make it â€œonly if
they are used as destination IP addressesâ€.  Also, remove the comma.

That fixes the sentence as written, but I also agree with Benâ€™s comment that
this might need more significant rewording.

â€” Section 4 â€”

   BFD packet MUST be encapsulated and sent to a remote VTEP as
   explained in this section.

This needs to be either â€œA BFD packetâ€ or â€œBFD packetsâ€ and â€œVTEPsâ€.

         The MAC address MAY be
         configured, or it MAY be learned via a control plane protocol.

Are those the only two choices?  As both â€œMAYâ€ are optional, as written it
allows for others.  I suggest not using BCP 14 key words here, and instead
saying, â€œThe MAC address is either configured or learned via a control plane
protocol.â€

         This
         addresses the scenario when the inner IP destination address is
         of VXLAN gateway and there is a router in underlay which
         removes the VXLAN header, then it is possible to route the
         packet as VXLAN  gateway address is routable address.

This sentence is too fractured for me to make any sense of it, so I canâ€™t
suggest a fix.  Please fix it.  It looks like Ben made more sense of it than I
could, so maybe his suggestion will work.

â€” Section 5 â€”

   received VXLAN packet MUST follow the procedures described in
   Section 4.1 [RFC7348].

This needs to say â€œSection 4.1 of [RFC7348].â€



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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the work that everyone has put into this document. I have
a couple of relatively important, related comments that should be
taken into account prior to publication.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Â§3:

>  As per Section 4, the inner destination IP address SHOULD be set to
>  one of the loopback addresses (127/8 range for IPv4 and
>  0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6).

Please consider reformatting this IPv6 address according to the recommendations
of RFC 5952 (paying particular attention to sections 4.2.1, 4.3, and 5):

::ffff:127.0.0.0/104

It's also worth noting that, as a practical matter, modern operating systems do
not seem to bind to anything in the IPv4-mapped range assigned to IPv4 loopback:

Linux:

  ~$ ping6 ::ffff:127.0.0.1
  PING ::ffff:127.0.0.1(::ffff:127.0.0.1) 56 data bytes
  ^C
  --- ::ffff:127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
  14 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 13316ms

MacOS:

  ~$ ping6 ::ffff:127.0.0.1
  PING6(56=40+8+8 bytes) ::ffff:127.0.0.1 --> ::ffff:127.0.0.1
  ping6: sendmsg: Invalid argument
  ping6: wrote ::ffff:127.0.0.1 16 chars, ret=-1


It is not clear to me whether this poses an issue for your intended usage.

In any case, please do not refer to ::ffff:127.0.0.0/104 as "loopback
addresses": IPv6 has only one loopback address defined (::1). The range
you cite is best described as "IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback addresses."
Alternately -- and this is probably better -- use "::1/128" instead of
"::ffff:127.0.0.0/104" for the inner IP header destination address.

As an aside, I share Benjamin's unease around the use of loopback addresses
in this fashion. It may be worth noting that IETF protocols can reserve
addresses in the 192.0.0.0/24 and 2001::/23 blocks if necessary, and such
reserved addresses won't ever correspond to a valid destination.

(There is corresponding text in section 4 that all of the preceding pertains
to as well)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Â§9:

>  This document recommends using an address from the Internal host
>  loopback addresses (127/8 range for IPv4 and
>  0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6) as the destination IP
>  address in the inner IP header.  Using such address prevents the
>  forwarding of the encapsulated BFD control message by a transient
>  node in case the VXLAN tunnel is broken as according to [RFC1812]:
>
>     A router SHOULD NOT forward, except over a loopback interface, any
>     packet that has a destination address on network 127.  A router
>     MAY have a switch that allows the network manager to disable these
>     checks.  If such a switch is provided, it MUST default to
>     performing the checks.

In addition to the comments above about IPv6 address formatting, the
improper use of "loopback" terminology as it applies to IPv6, and
concerns about using localhost: it's worth noting that this text in
RFC 1812 refers to IPv4 routers -- RFC 8504 has no equivalent language,
and so the use of ::ffff:127.0.0.0/104 implies no special router handling.
::1 *probably* does, at least as a practical matter.



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Reviewer: JÃ¼rgen SchÃ¶nwÃ¤lder
Review result: Has Nits

I have only a limited understanding of VXLAN and BFD technology.
Hence, some of my question may look odd to the insiders.

- Never	heard of this IPv6 loopback address space before. Is it	OK to
  allocate and use it this way?

- Why is echo BFD outside the scope of this document? Can I just turn
  on echo mode or will extra specifications be needed?

- Nits:

  OLD

    Ability to monitor path continuity

  NEW

    The ability to monitor path continuity

  OLD

    BFD packet MUST be encapsulated

  NEW

    BFD packets MUST be encapsulated


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Ã‰ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: Discuss

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Thank you for the work put into this document.

I fully second Adam's COMMENT that should be fixed before publication (IMHO
this is a DISCUSS).

Answers to my COMMENTs below will be welcome, even if those COMMENTs are not
blocking.

As usual, an answer to the DISCUSS is required to clear my DISCUSS though.

I hope that this helps to improve the document,

Regards,

-Ã©ric

== DISCUSS ==

May be I am not familiar enough with BFD, but, RFC 5881 (the one defining BFD)
specifies the use of TTL = Hop Limit = 255.. Why this document uses a value of
1 ?

-- Section 3 --
IPv4-mapped IPv6 addresses are only to be used inside a host and should never
be transmitted in real packets (including packets inside a tunnel) see section
4.2 of RFC 4038 (even if informational). As other IESG reviewers, I wonder why
::1/128 is not used?

-- Section 8 --
The document specifies no IANA actions while the shepherd write-up talks about
a IANA action.

-- Section 9 --
This section is only about IPv4 (TTL and RFC 1812). Please address IPv6 as well.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

== COMMENTS ==

RFC 5881 (BFD) states that it applies to IPv4/IPv6 tunnels, may I infer that
this document is only required to address the Ethernet encapsulation ? I.e.
specifying the Ethernet MAC addresses?

-- Section 3 --
At first sight, I was surprized by having a BFD session per VXLAN VNI as it
will create some scalability issue, but, I assume that this is to detect
misconfiguration as well. If so, perhaps worth mentionnig the reasoning behind?

In "the inner destination IP address SHOULD" it is unclear whether it is in the
all BFD packets, or only the request one or ... ?

-- Section 4 --
While probably defined in RFC7348, should "FCS" be renamed as "Outer Ethernet
FCS" for consistency with the "Outer Ethernet Header" in figure 2 ?

Why not using the Source MAC address as the Destination MAC address ? This
would ensure that there is no conflict at the expense of "forcing" the
transmission of the frame even if addressed to itself.

Please consider rewriting the section about TTL/Hop Limit as it is not easy to
parse/read.

-- Section 9 --
It is unclear to me (see also Ben's comment) what is the 'attack vector' of
sending packets with TTL=1 ?



From nobody Tue Dec 17 06:39:07 2019
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From: Warren Kumari via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I support Benjamin and Eric's DISCUSSES - I considered holding a DISCUSS on the
"loopback address" terminology and formatting (which was also noted in the
excellent OpsDir review by JÃ¼rgen SchÃ¶nwÃ¤lder), but think that Eric can carry
it.

In addition, like Jurgen, I think it would be helpful to have pointers to where
terms are defined - the "Terminology" section isn't really terminology, but
rather just an acronym expansion section.



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Subject: Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: Discuss

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email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


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for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I support Eric's DISCUSS point about the TTL, but I want to go a step further
because this document contradicts rfc5881, which is clear about the TTL setting
(from Â§5):

   If BFD authentication is not in use on a session, all BFD Control
   packets for the session MUST be sent with a Time to Live (TTL) or Hop
   Limit value of 255.  All received BFD Control packets that are
   demultiplexed to the session MUST be discarded if the received TTL or
   Hop Limit is not equal to 255.  A discussion of this mechanism can be
   found in [GTSM].

   If BFD authentication is in use on a session, all BFD Control packets
   MUST be sent with a TTL or Hop Limit value of 255.  All received BFD
   Control packets that are demultiplexed to the session MAY be
   discarded if the received TTL or Hop Limit is not equal to 255.  If
   the TTL/Hop Limit check is made, it MAY be done before any
   cryptographic authentication takes place if this will avoid
   unnecessary calculation that would be detrimental to the receiving
   system.

OTOH, Section 4 of this document specifies:

     TTL or Hop Limit: MUST be set to 1 to ensure that the BFD
     packet is not routed within the Layer 3 underlay network.  This
     addresses the scenario when the inner IP destination address is
     of VXLAN gateway and there is a router in underlay which
     removes the VXLAN header, then it is possible to route the
     packet as VXLAN  gateway address is routable address.

Not wanting the packet to be routed in the underlay sounds like a reasonable
justification -- but I couldn't find the specification in rfc7348 about "a
router in underlay which removes the VXLAN header".  Maybe I missed it...

Independent of VXLAN, the conflict with rfc5881 remains -- given the text
above, it seems to me that it would be ok if the TTL was set to 1 if
authentication is is use, but this document doesn't talk about requiring
authentication.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I also support Ben's DISCUSS.

Non-blocking comments:

(1) Â§3: "...a service layer BFD session may be used between the tenants of
VTEPs IP1 and IP2..."   Just to be clear, the use of BFD in a "service layer
session" is out of scope of this document, right?  It might be nice to say so.

(2) Â§3: "As per Section 4, the inner destination IP address SHOULD be..."  If
the specification is already in Section 4, then there doesn't seem to be a need
to repeat it.  It might make more sense to put the text about a potential
firewall there.

(3) Â§4: "...SHOULD ensure that the BFD packets follow the same lookup path as
VXLAN data packets within the sender system."  What is a "lookup path"?  When
would it be ok to not ensure it?  BTW, a better Normative statement might me
(something like): MUST follow the same lookup path...

(4) Â§4: "The MAC address MAY be configured, or it MAY be learned via a control
plane protocol. The details of how the MAC address is obtained are outside the
scope of this document."  The Normative MAYs are really just stating a fact,
and out of scope any way.  s/MAY/may

(5) Â§5: "If the Destination MAC of the inner Ethernet frame doesn't match any
of VTEP's MAC addresses, then the processing of the received VXLAN packet MUST
follow the procedures described in Section 4.1 [RFC7348]."  Â§4.1 of rfc7348 is
about Unicast VM-to-VM Communication -- which makes me think that if the
procedures from that section are followed then the BFD packet may be forwarded
to a VM, which seems to be in contradiction with this statement (from Â§3): "BFD
packets intended for a VTEP MUST NOT be forwarded to a VM as a VM may drop BFD
packets leading to a false negative."  What am I missing?

(6) Related to the last point, the following sentences also mention that BFD
packets MUST NOT be forwarded to VMs...but with qualifications:

Â§5: "If the BFD session is using the Management VNI (Section 6), BFD Control
packets with unknown MAC address MUST NOT be forwarded to VMs."

Â§6: "All VXLAN packets received on the Management VNI MUST be processed locally
and MUST NOT be forwarded to a tenant."

The difference between these 2 statements and the one from Â§3 is that they seem
to be intended only when using the Management VNI...but it would seem that the
general statement applies there too, right?  IOW, the specific statements about
the Management VNIs are simply affirming what was already said more generally
in Â§3, right?

(7) Nits:

s/of VXLAN gateway and there is a router in underlay/of the VXLAN gateway and
there is a router in the underlay

s/VTEP MUST validate/the VTEP MUST validate

s/then BFD session/then the BFD session



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Subject: Re: Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with COMMENT)
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
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Hi Adam,
thank you for your review and the very clear suggestions, all is the most
helpful. I've followed your recommendations and applied changes to the
working version of the draft. Attached, please find the diff that
highlights updates. Also, please find my notes in-line tagged GIM>>.

Best regards,
Greg

On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 11:11 PM Adam Roach via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thanks for the work that everyone has put into this document. I have
> a couple of relatively important, related comments that should be
> taken into account prior to publication.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>
> =C2=A73:
>
> >  As per Section 4, the inner destination IP address SHOULD be set to
> >  one of the loopback addresses (127/8 range for IPv4 and
> >  0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6).
>
> Please consider reformatting this IPv6 address according to the
> recommendations
> of RFC 5952 (paying particular attention to sections 4.2.1, 4.3, and 5):
>
> ::ffff:127.0.0.0/104
>
> It's also worth noting that, as a practical matter, modern operating
> systems do
> not seem to bind to anything in the IPv4-mapped range assigned to IPv4
> loopback:
>
> Linux:
>
>   ~$ ping6 ::ffff:127.0.0.1
>   PING ::ffff:127.0.0.1(::ffff:127.0.0.1) 56 data bytes
>   ^C
>   --- ::ffff:127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
>   14 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 13316ms
>
> MacOS:
>
>   ~$ ping6 ::ffff:127.0.0.1
>   PING6(56=3D40+8+8 bytes) ::ffff:127.0.0.1 --> ::ffff:127.0.0.1
>   ping6: sendmsg: Invalid argument
>   ping6: wrote ::ffff:127.0.0.1 16 chars, ret=3D-1
>
>
> It is not clear to me whether this poses an issue for your intended usage=
.
>
GIM>> Thank you for sharing very interesting facts on the handling of these
addresses. I don't think that implementation on the egress BFD node would
listen on the particular address, more likely it would be on the value of
the well-known UDP port. The goal of using one of the addresses from this
range is to prevent leaking packets from a broken VXLAN tunnel (as was the
original goal in RFC 4379/8029 and RFC 5884).

>
> In any case, please do not refer to ::ffff:127.0.0.0/104 as "loopback
> addresses": IPv6 has only one loopback address defined (::1). The range
> you cite is best described as "IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback addresses."
> Alternately -- and this is probably better -- use "::1/128" instead of
> "::ffff:127.0.0.0/104" for the inner IP header destination address.
>
> As an aside, I share Benjamin's unease around the use of loopback address=
es
> in this fashion. It may be worth noting that IETF protocols can reserve
> addresses in the 192.0.0.0/24 and 2001::/23 blocks if necessary, and such
> reserved addresses won't ever correspond to a valid destination.
>
> (There is corresponding text in section 4 that all of the preceding
> pertains
> to as well)
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>
> =C2=A79:
>
> >  This document recommends using an address from the Internal host
> >  loopback addresses (127/8 range for IPv4 and
> >  0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6) as the destination IP
> >  address in the inner IP header.  Using such address prevents the
> >  forwarding of the encapsulated BFD control message by a transient
> >  node in case the VXLAN tunnel is broken as according to [RFC1812]:
> >
> >     A router SHOULD NOT forward, except over a loopback interface, any
> >     packet that has a destination address on network 127.  A router
> >     MAY have a switch that allows the network manager to disable these
> >     checks.  If such a switch is provided, it MUST default to
> >     performing the checks.
>
> In addition to the comments above about IPv6 address formatting, the
> improper use of "loopback" terminology as it applies to IPv6, and
> concerns about using localhost: it's worth noting that this text in
> RFC 1812 refers to IPv4 routers -- RFC 8504 has no equivalent language,
> and so the use of ::ffff:127.0.0.0/104 implies no special router handling=
.
> ::1 *probably* does, at least as a practical matter.
>
GIM>> As noted above, the reason of using addresses from this range was to
prevent packets from being routed in case a tunnel is broken. Do you think
that the lack of the wording similar to RFC 1812 should be a concern for
RFC 8029 and RFC 5884 that use the same range for the destination IP
address?

--000000000000869c750599edf3de
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Adam,<div>thank you for your review an=
d the very clear suggestions, all is the most helpful. I&#39;ve followed yo=
ur recommendations and applied changes to the working version of the draft.=
 Attached, please find the diff that highlights updates. Also, please find =
my notes in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,=
</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 11:11 PM Adam Roach via Datatr=
acker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Adam Roach ha=
s entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tatement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bf=
d-vxlan/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Thanks for the work that everyone has put into this document. I have<br>
a couple of relatively important, related comments that should be<br>
taken into account prior to publication.<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
<br>
=C2=A73:<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 As per Section 4, the inner destination IP address SHOULD be set=
 to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 one of the loopback addresses (127/8 range for IPv4 and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6).<br>
<br>
Please consider reformatting this IPv6 address according to the recommendat=
ions<br>
of RFC 5952 (paying particular attention to sections 4.2.1, 4.3, and 5):<br=
>
<br>
::ffff:<a href=3D"http://127.0.0.0/104" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank=
">127.0.0.0/104</a><br>
<br>
It&#39;s also worth noting that, as a practical matter, modern operating sy=
stems do<br>
not seem to bind to anything in the IPv4-mapped range assigned to IPv4 loop=
back:<br>
<br>
Linux:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 ~$ ping6 ::ffff:127.0.0.1<br>
=C2=A0 PING ::ffff:127.0.0.1(::ffff:127.0.0.1) 56 data bytes<br>
=C2=A0 ^C<br>
=C2=A0 --- ::ffff:127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---<br>
=C2=A0 14 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 13316ms<b=
r>
<br>
MacOS:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 ~$ ping6 ::ffff:127.0.0.1<br>
=C2=A0 PING6(56=3D40+8+8 bytes) ::ffff:127.0.0.1 --&gt; ::ffff:127.0.0.1<br=
>
=C2=A0 ping6: sendmsg: Invalid argument<br>
=C2=A0 ping6: wrote ::ffff:127.0.0.1 16 chars, ret=3D-1<br>
<br>
<br>
It is not clear to me whether this poses an issue for your intended usage.<=
br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for sharing very interesting fac=
ts on the handling of these addresses. I don&#39;t think that implementatio=
n on the egress BFD node would listen on the particular address, more likel=
y it would be on the value of the well-known UDP port. The goal of using on=
e of the addresses from this range is to prevent leaking packets from a bro=
ken VXLAN tunnel (as was the original goal in RFC 4379/8029 and RFC 5884).<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
In any case, please do not refer to ::ffff:<a href=3D"http://127.0.0.0/104"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">127.0.0.0/104</a> as &quot;loopback<b=
r>
addresses&quot;: IPv6 has only one loopback address defined (::1). The rang=
e<br>
you cite is best described as &quot;IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback addresses.&qu=
ot;<br>
Alternately -- and this is probably better -- use &quot;::1/128&quot; inste=
ad of<br>
&quot;::ffff:<a href=3D"http://127.0.0.0/104" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"=
_blank">127.0.0.0/104</a>&quot; for the inner IP header destination address=
.<br>
<br>
As an aside, I share Benjamin&#39;s unease around the use of loopback addre=
sses<br>
in this fashion. It may be worth noting that IETF protocols can reserve<br>
addresses in the <a href=3D"http://192.0.0.0/24" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">192.0.0.0/24</a> and 2001::/23 blocks if necessary, and such<br=
>
reserved addresses won&#39;t ever correspond to a valid destination.<br>
<br>
(There is corresponding text in section 4 that all of the preceding pertain=
s<br>
to as well)<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
<br>
=C2=A79:<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 This document recommends using an address from the Internal host=
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 loopback addresses (127/8 range for IPv4 and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6) as the destination IP<=
br>
&gt;=C2=A0 address in the inner IP header.=C2=A0 Using such address prevent=
s the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 forwarding of the encapsulated BFD control message by a transien=
t<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 node in case the VXLAN tunnel is broken as according to [RFC1812=
]:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A router SHOULD NOT forward, except over a loopback=
 interface, any<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet that has a destination address on network 12=
7.=C2=A0 A router<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MAY have a switch that allows the network manager t=
o disable these<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0checks.=C2=A0 If such a switch is provided, it MUST=
 default to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0performing the checks.<br>
<br>
In addition to the comments above about IPv6 address formatting, the<br>
improper use of &quot;loopback&quot; terminology as it applies to IPv6, and=
<br>
concerns about using localhost: it&#39;s worth noting that this text in<br>
RFC 1812 refers to IPv4 routers -- RFC 8504 has no equivalent language,<br>
and so the use of ::ffff:<a href=3D"http://127.0.0.0/104" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">127.0.0.0/104</a> implies no special router handling.<b=
r>
::1 *probably* does, at least as a practical matter.<br></blockquote><div>G=
IM&gt;&gt; As noted above, the reason of using addresses from this range wa=
s to prevent packets from being routed in case a tunnel is broken. Do you t=
hink that the lack of the wording similar to RFC 1812 should be a concern f=
or RFC 8029 and RFC 5884 that use the same range for the destination IP add=
ress? </div><div><br></div></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 14:53:37 -0800
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Subject: Re: Opsdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09
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Hi Jurgen,
thank you for the review, questions, and suggestions to improve the
document. I've applied the changes to the working version of the draft. The
attached diff highlights the updates (including those suggested by Adam).
Please find my notes in-line tagged GIM>>,

Best regards,
Greg

On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 12:05 AM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder via Data=
tracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Reviewer: J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder
> Review result: Has Nits
>
> I have only a limited understanding of VXLAN and BFD technology.
> Hence, some of my question may look odd to the insiders.
>
> - Never heard of this IPv6 loopback address space before. Is it OK to
>   allocate and use it this way?
>
GIM>> As Adam had explained, the correct wording for these addresses (and
that is what used in the working version) is "IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback
addresses". Using an address from this range as the destination IP address
of an OAM packet encapsulated in a tunnel was, to the best of my knowledge,
first defined in RFC 4379 (now RFC 8029). Then RFC 5884 applied it to BFD
over MPLS LSP.

>
> - Why is echo BFD outside the scope of this document? Can I just turn
>   on echo mode or will extra specifications be needed?
>
GIM>> I believe that the support of the Echo mode of BFD has not been
requested by the BFD WG. I think that some amount of work to define the use
of Echo BFD over VXLAN may be needed.

>
> - Nits:
>
>   OLD
>
>     Ability to monitor path continuity
>
>   NEW
>
>     The ability to monitor path continuity
>
>   OLD
>
>     BFD packet MUST be encapsulated
>
>   NEW
>
>     BFD packets MUST be encapsulated
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Jurgen,<div>thank you for the review, =
questions, and suggestions to improve the document. I&#39;ve applied the ch=
anges to the working version of the draft. The attached diff highlights the=
 updates (including those suggested by Adam). Please find my notes in-line =
tagged GIM&gt;&gt;,</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Greg</=
div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_at=
tr">On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 12:05 AM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder via =
Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Reviewe=
r: J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder<br>
Review result: Has Nits<br>
<br>
I have only a limited understanding of VXLAN and BFD technology.<br>
Hence, some of my question may look odd to the insiders.<br>
<br>
- Never heard of this IPv6 loopback address space before. Is it OK to<br>
=C2=A0 allocate and use it this way?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; As Ad=
am had explained, the correct wording for these addresses (and that is what=
 used in the working version) is &quot;IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback addresses&=
quot;. Using an address from this range as the destination IP address of an=
 OAM packet encapsulated in a tunnel was, to the best of my knowledge, firs=
t defined in RFC 4379 (now RFC 8029). Then RFC 5884 applied it to BFD over =
MPLS LSP.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
- Why is echo BFD outside the scope of this document? Can I just turn<br>
=C2=A0 on echo mode or will extra specifications be needed?<br></blockquote=
><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I believe that the support of the Echo mode of BFD has no=
t been requested by the BFD WG. I think that some amount of work to define =
the use of Echo BFD over VXLAN may be needed.</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
- Nits:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 OLD<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ability to monitor path continuity<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 NEW<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The ability to monitor path continuity<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 OLD<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFD packet MUST be encapsulated<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 NEW<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFD packets MUST be encapsulated<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 15:17:21 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmU0nRYR0xL87d-W0YCUuiyHu_C3Y3ri=tjyexnTwoS9MQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09
To: Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: gen-art@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>,  draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan.all@ietf.org
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Hi Erik,
thank you for your reviews and for sharing thoughts on the selection of the
destination IPv6 address. Following recommendations from Adam, I've updated
the document to use the proper representation of IPv6 addresses and refer
to them as "IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback addresses". These updates are in the
attached diff. Adam also noted that RFC 8504 doesn't have a similar wording
regarding the handling of packets addressed to an address from 127/8
network as RFC 1812 (of course, referring to IPv4-mapped 127/8 addresses):
      A router SHOULD NOT forward, except over a loopback interface, any
      packet that has a destination address on network 127.  A router
      MAY have a switch that allows the network manager to disable these
      checks.  If such a switch is provided, it MUST default to
      performing the checks.
I'd note, that the egress BFD system is expected to accept a BFD packet
with the destination IP address from the specified range without being
provisioned for the specific address from that range. Perhaps that makes
the use of this range possible even though its special handling is not
explicitly documented.

Best regards,
Greg


On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 9:19 PM Erik Kline via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
wrote:

> Reviewer: Erik Kline
> Review result: Ready with Nits
>
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
> by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your
> document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
>
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-??
> Reviewer: Erik Kline
> Review Date: 2019-12-16
> IETF LC End Date: None
> IESG Telechat date: 2019-12-19
>
> Summary:
>
> -09 addresses my concerns from -07.  Thank you for this.
>
> The one "nit" is that it seems to have introduced a recommendation to use
> ::ffff:7f00:0/104 as an IPv6 loopback prefix.  (a) This document should
> follow
> the format recommendations of RFC 5952 section 4.3 and lowercase the
> "F"s.  But
> (b) more importantly, I'm not sure how implementations may treats this
> space.
>
> The use of an RFC4291 section-2.5.5.2 mapped v4 address doesn't necessarily
> make the packet a part of an IPv6 connection.  Nevertheless, I'm not sure I
> have a strong feeling about this as it may still exercise enough of the
> IPv6
> stack in a VTEP.
>
> I definitely do think that in the case of BFD on the management VNI
> targeting
> an IPv6 link-local address of the VTEP would be better.  However, I expect
> that
> if ::ffff:127.0.0.0 does prove to have some issues in the future a -bis
> can be
> written quickly with a recommendation.
>
> Also, Suresh may have ideas for a solution.
>
> Major issues:
>
> Minor issues:
>
> Nits/editorial comments:
>
>
>

--000000000000611e8b0599ee88ed
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Erik,<div>thank you for your reviews a=
nd for sharing thoughts on the selection of the destination IPv6 address. F=
ollowing recommendations from Adam, I&#39;ve updated the document to use th=
e proper representation of IPv6 addresses and refer to them as &quot;IPv4-m=
apped IPv4 loopback addresses&quot;. These updates are in the attached diff=
. Adam also noted that RFC 8504 doesn&#39;t have a similar wording regardin=
g the handling of packets addressed to an address from 127/8 network as RFC=
 1812 (of course, referring to IPv4-mapped 127/8 addresses):</div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A router SHOULD NOT forward, except over a loopback interface=
, any<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet that has a destination address on netw=
ork 127.=C2=A0 A router<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MAY have a switch that allo=
ws the network manager to disable these<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 checks.=C2=
=A0 If such a switch is provided, it MUST default to<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 performing the checks.<br><div>I&#39;d note, that the egress BFD system=
 is expected to accept a BFD packet with the destination IP address from th=
e specified range without being provisioned for the specific address from t=
hat range. Perhaps that makes the use of this range possible even though it=
s special handling is not explicitly documented.</div><div><br></div><div>B=
est regards,</div><div>Greg</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 9:1=
9 PM Erik Kline via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">nor=
eply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex">Reviewer: Erik Kline<br>
Review result: Ready with Nits<br>
<br>
I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area<br>
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed<br>
by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your<br>
document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.<br>
<br>
For more information, please see the FAQ at<br>
<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq</a>&g=
t;.<br>
<br>
Document: draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-??<br>
Reviewer: Erik Kline<br>
Review Date: 2019-12-16<br>
IETF LC End Date: None<br>
IESG Telechat date: 2019-12-19<br>
<br>
Summary:<br>
<br>
-09 addresses my concerns from -07.=C2=A0 Thank you for this.<br>
<br>
The one &quot;nit&quot; is that it seems to have introduced a recommendatio=
n to use<br>
::ffff:7f00:0/104 as an IPv6 loopback prefix.=C2=A0 (a) This document shoul=
d follow<br>
the format recommendations of RFC 5952 section 4.3 and lowercase the &quot;=
F&quot;s.=C2=A0 But<br>
(b) more importantly, I&#39;m not sure how implementations may treats this =
space.<br>
<br>
The use of an RFC4291 section-2.5.5.2 mapped v4 address doesn&#39;t necessa=
rily<br>
make the packet a part of an IPv6 connection.=C2=A0 Nevertheless, I&#39;m n=
ot sure I<br>
have a strong feeling about this as it may still exercise enough of the IPv=
6<br>
stack in a VTEP.<br>
<br>
I definitely do think that in the case of BFD on the management VNI targeti=
ng<br>
an IPv6 link-local address of the VTEP would be better.=C2=A0 However, I ex=
pect that<br>
if ::ffff:127.0.0.0 does prove to have some issues in the future a -bis can=
 be<br>
written quickly with a recommendation.<br>
<br>
Also, Suresh may have ideas for a solution.<br>
<br>
Major issues:<br>
<br>
Minor issues:<br>
<br>
Nits/editorial comments:<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 16:30:54 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmVUVBn6G-UgR=eRy+MKB9LT0peZdL29vqOZ4Chz-o1hNw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with COMMENT)
To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org,  Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>,  Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Hi Warren,
thank you for the review. I've updated the representation of IPv6 addresses
to follow RFC 5952 and the reference to IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback addresses
range per recommendations from Adam Roach. Attached, please find the diff
that highlights the updates made in the working version of the draft.
As to the suggestion made by Jurgen in his first review, would changing the
title of the section to Acronyms and Abbreviations make the scope of that
section more clear?

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 6:39 AM Warren Kumari via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I support Benjamin and Eric's DISCUSSES - I considered holding a DISCUSS
> on the
> "loopback address" terminology and formatting (which was also noted in th=
e
> excellent OpsDir review by J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder), but think =
that Eric can
> carry
> it.
>
> In addition, like Jurgen, I think it would be helpful to have pointers to
> where
> terms are defined - the "Terminology" section isn't really terminology, b=
ut
> rather just an acronym expansion section.
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Warren,<div>thank you for the review. =
I&#39;ve updated the representation of IPv6 addresses to follow RFC 5952 an=
d the reference to IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback addresses range per recommenda=
tions from Adam Roach. Attached, please find the diff that highlights the u=
pdates made in the working version of the draft.</div><div>As to the sugges=
tion made by Jurgen in his first review, would changing the title of the se=
ction to Acronyms and Abbreviations make the scope of that section more cle=
ar?</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 17, 2=
019 at 6:39 AM Warren Kumari via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@=
ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex">Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot po=
sition for<br>
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tatement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bf=
d-vxlan/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
I support Benjamin and Eric&#39;s DISCUSSES - I considered holding a DISCUS=
S on the<br>
&quot;loopback address&quot; terminology and formatting (which was also not=
ed in the<br>
excellent OpsDir review by J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder), but think th=
at Eric can carry<br>
it.<br>
<br>
In addition, like Jurgen, I think it would be helpful to have pointers to w=
here<br>
terms are defined - the &quot;Terminology&quot; section isn&#39;t really te=
rminology, but<br>
rather just an acronym expansion section.<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:28:40 -0800
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Subject: Re: Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with COMMENT)
To: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org,  Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Hi Roman,
thank you for your review, detailed questions, and helpful suggestions. All
editorial changes applied to the working version of the document. Please
find my answers in-line below tagged GIM>>.

Best regards,
Greg

On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 6:01 PM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I support Ben Kaduk=E2=80=99s DISCUSS position.
>
> * Section 9. Per =E2=80=9CThe document requires setting the inner IP TTL =
to 1,
> which
> could be used as a DDoS attack vector=E2=80=9D, could you please clarify =
what
> part(s)
> of the notional architecture would be impacted (e.g., physical, virtual;
> and
> how)?
>
GIM>> The scenario we've considered is when a VXLAN tunnel is broken. A
packet that is not using an address from the loopback range (or from
IPv4-mapped addresses for that range for IPv6) may be routed and TTL or Hop
count will be zeroed on the next node. The impact likely to be noticed on
the control plane. Would you agree?

>
> * Section 9. Per:
>    Thus the implementation MUST have
>    throttling in place to control the rate of BFD Control packets sent
>    to the control plane.  On the other hand, over-aggressive throttling
>    of BFD Control packets may become the cause of the inability to form
>    and maintain BFD session at scale.  Hence, throttling of BFD Control
>    packets SHOULD be adjusted to permit BFD to work according to its
>    procedures.
>
> I=E2=80=99m having difficulty parsing the guidance above =E2=80=93 it poi=
nts out the need
> to
> throttle and the ramifications of doing so.  Per the last sentence, could
> you
> please clarify how the throttling should be calibrated.
>
GIM>> I think that it is very much implementation-specific. For example, an
implementation may throttle control packets per BFD session or use a more
aggregate approach. On the other hand, intervals at which BFD Control
packets being transmitted and received play some role in selecting the
throttling limits.

>
> * Section 9.  Per =E2=80=9Cthis specification does not raise any addition=
al
> security
> issues beyond those of the specifications referred to in the list of
> normative
> references=E2=80=9D, I recommend being clearer which references you mean =
(i.e., I=E2=80=99m
> assuming you don=E2=80=99t mean RFC2119, RFC8174, etc.)
>
GIM>> Thank you for pointing to this ambiguity. The updated text:
   Other than inner IP TTL set to 1 and limit the number of BFD sessions
   between the same pair of VTEPs, this specification does not raise any
   additional security issues beyond those discussed in [RFC5880],
   [RFC5881], and [RFC7348].
Would it address your concern?

>
> * Editorial Nits:
> - Abstract. s/forming up/used to form/
>
> - Section 9. s/such address/such an address/
>
>
>

--0000000000009c85020599fcf07a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Roman,<div>thank you for your review, =
detailed questions, and helpful suggestions. All editorial changes applied =
to the working version of the document. Please find my answers in-line=C2=
=A0below tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><d=
iv>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 6:01 PM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Roman Danyliw has e=
ntered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tatement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bf=
d-vxlan/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
I support Ben Kaduk=E2=80=99s DISCUSS position.<br>
<br>
* Section 9. Per =E2=80=9CThe document requires setting the inner IP TTL to=
 1, which<br>
could be used as a DDoS attack vector=E2=80=9D, could you please clarify wh=
at part(s)<br>
of the notional architecture would be impacted (e.g., physical, virtual; an=
d<br>
how)?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; The scenario we&#39;ve considered is=
 when a VXLAN tunnel is broken. A packet that is not using an address from =
the loopback range (or from IPv4-mapped addresses for that range for IPv6) =
may be routed and TTL or Hop count will be zeroed on the next node. The imp=
act likely to be noticed on the control plane. Would you agree?</div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
* Section 9. Per:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Thus the implementation MUST have<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0throttling in place to control the rate of BFD Control packets=
 sent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to the control plane.=C2=A0 On the other hand, over-aggressive=
 throttling<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of BFD Control packets may become the cause of the inability t=
o form<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and maintain BFD session at scale.=C2=A0 Hence, throttling of =
BFD Control<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0packets SHOULD be adjusted to permit BFD to work according to =
its<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0procedures.<br>
<br>
I=E2=80=99m having difficulty parsing the guidance above =E2=80=93 it point=
s out the need to<br>
throttle and the ramifications of doing so.=C2=A0 Per the last sentence, co=
uld you<br>
please clarify how the throttling should be calibrated.<br></blockquote><di=
v>GIM&gt;&gt; I think that it is very much implementation-specific. For exa=
mple, an implementation may throttle control packets per BFD session or use=
 a more aggregate approach. On the other hand, intervals at which BFD Contr=
ol packets being transmitted and received play some role in selecting the t=
hrottling limits.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
* Section 9.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9Cthis specification does not raise any addit=
ional security<br>
issues beyond those of the specifications referred to in the list of normat=
ive<br>
references=E2=80=9D, I recommend being clearer which references you mean (i=
.e., I=E2=80=99m<br>
assuming you don=E2=80=99t mean RFC2119, RFC8174, etc.)<br></blockquote><di=
v>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for pointing to this ambiguity. The updated text:</=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Other than inner IP TTL set to 1 and limit the number of B=
FD sessions<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0between the same pair of VTEPs, this specificat=
ion does not raise any<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0additional security issues beyond th=
ose discussed in [RFC5880],<br><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5881], and [RFC7348].<=
/div><div>Would it address your concern?=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
* Editorial Nits:<br>
- Abstract. s/forming up/used to form/<br>
<br>
- Section 9. s/such address/such an address/<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000009c85020599fcf07a--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 09:10:45 -0800
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Subject: Re: Barry Leiba's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with COMMENT)
To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org,  Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Hi Barry,
thank you for your review, comments, and suggestions. Please find my
answers in-line below under GIM>> tag.
Attached, please find the diff attached (apologies that it includes also
updates to several other reviews).

Best regards,
Greg

On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 9:39 PM Barry Leiba via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I support Ben=E2=80=99s DISCUSS.  In addition, I have a number of editori=
al
> comments.
>
> General: there are a lot of missing or incorrect articles, making the
> document
> harder to read than it should be.  It would be good to fix that.  If you
> let
> the RFC Editor fix it, it will require careful review during AUTH48 to ma=
ke
> sure it=E2=80=99s correct.
>
> =E2=80=94 Abstract =E2=80=94
> The phrase =E2=80=9Cforming up=E2=80=9D is odd; I suggest just =E2=80=9Cf=
orming=E2=80=9D.
>
GIM>> It was suggested to s/forming up/used to form/. Do you think it reads
better?

>
> =E2=80=94 Section 3 =E2=80=94
>
>    BFD packets intended for a VTEP MUST
>    NOT be forwarded to a VM as a VM may drop BFD packets leading to a
>    false negative.
>
> This needs two commas: one before =E2=80=9Cas=E2=80=9D and one before =E2=
=80=9Cleading=E2=80=9D.  And what
> does
> =E2=80=9Cleading to a false negative=E2=80=9D mean here?  I don=E2=80=99t=
 understand.
>
GIM>> Thank you for your suggestion to improve the text. If BFD Control
packets are not processed at the egress BFD system, even though the VXLAN
tunnel is operational, the state of the session will be changed to Down
once the Detection timer expires. We consider that such failure
notification is "false" as it does not indicate a failure of the monitored
VXLAN tunnel but something else, perhaps misconfiguration or an
implementation problem.

>
>    It is RECOMMENDED to allow
>    addresses from the loopback range through a firewall only if it is
>    used as the destination IP address in the inner IP header, and the
>    destination UDP port is set to 3784 [RFC5881].
>
> I THINK the antecedent for =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=9D is meant to be =E2=80=9Ca=
ddresses from the loopback
> range=E2=80=9D, though because of the number mismatch it looks like the a=
ntecedent
> is
> =E2=80=9Ca firewall=E2=80=9D.  One fix is to change =E2=80=9Caddresses=E2=
=80=9D to =E2=80=9Can address=E2=80=9D,
> correcting the
> number error, but that leaves the ambiguity.  Maybe betterto make it =E2=
=80=9Conly
> if
> they are used as destination IP addresses=E2=80=9D.  Also, remove the com=
ma.


> That fixes the sentence as written, but I also agree with Ben=E2=80=99s c=
omment
> that
> this might need more significant rewording.
>
GIM>> Thank you for your thorough consideration of the text and your
thoughtful suggestion. I've followed the second of your suggested changes.
Will work on improving the text with Ben.

>
> =E2=80=94 Section 4 =E2=80=94
>
>    BFD packet MUST be encapsulated and sent to a remote VTEP as
>    explained in this section.
>
> This needs to be either =E2=80=9CA BFD packet=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CBFD pa=
ckets=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CVTEPs=E2=80=9D.
>
GIM>>  I've followed the second option as the next sentence uses the plural
form.

>
>          The MAC address MAY be
>          configured, or it MAY be learned via a control plane protocol.
>
> Are those the only two choices?  As both =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D are option=
al, as written it
> allows for others.  I suggest not using BCP 14 key words here, and instea=
d
> saying, =E2=80=9CThe MAC address is either configured or learned via a co=
ntrol
> plane
> protocol.=E2=80=9D
>
GIM>> I agree.

>
>          This
>          addresses the scenario when the inner IP destination address is
>          of VXLAN gateway and there is a router in underlay which
>          removes the VXLAN header, then it is possible to route the
>          packet as VXLAN  gateway address is routable address.
>
> This sentence is too fractured for me to make any sense of it, so I can=
=E2=80=99t
> suggest a fix.  Please fix it.  It looks like Ben made more sense of it
> than I
> could, so maybe his suggestion will work.
>
GIM>> I agree. I'll update the passage while discussing Ben's comments.

>
> =E2=80=94 Section 5 =E2=80=94
>
>    received VXLAN packet MUST follow the procedures described in
>    Section 4.1 [RFC7348].
>
> This needs to say =E2=80=9CSection 4.1 of [RFC7348].=E2=80=9D
>
GIM>> Accepted, done.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Barry,<div>thank you for your review, =
comments, and suggestions. Please find my answers in-line below under GIM&g=
t;&gt; tag.</div><div>Attached, please find the diff attached (apologies th=
at it includes also updates to several other reviews).</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Best regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 9:39 PM Barr=
y Leiba via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@iet=
f.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex">Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tatement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bf=
d-vxlan/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
I support Ben=E2=80=99s DISCUSS.=C2=A0 In addition, I have a number of edit=
orial comments.<br>
<br>
General: there are a lot of missing or incorrect articles, making the docum=
ent<br>
harder to read than it should be.=C2=A0 It would be good to fix that.=C2=A0=
 If you let<br>
the RFC Editor fix it, it will require careful review during AUTH48 to make=
<br>
sure it=E2=80=99s correct.<br>
<br>
=E2=80=94 Abstract =E2=80=94<br>
The phrase =E2=80=9Cforming up=E2=80=9D is odd; I suggest just =E2=80=9Cfor=
ming=E2=80=9D.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; It was suggested to s/formi=
ng up/used to form/. Do you think it reads better?=C2=A0</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=E2=80=94 Section 3 =E2=80=94<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD packets intended for a VTEP MUST<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0NOT be forwarded to a VM as a VM may drop BFD packets leading =
to a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0false negative.<br>
<br>
This needs two commas: one before =E2=80=9Cas=E2=80=9D and one before =E2=
=80=9Cleading=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 And what does<br>
=E2=80=9Cleading to a false negative=E2=80=9D mean here?=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=
=99t understand.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for your sugges=
tion to improve the text. If BFD Control packets are not processed at the e=
gress BFD system, even though the VXLAN tunnel is operational, the state of=
 the session will be changed to Down once the Detection timer expires. We c=
onsider that such failure notification is &quot;false&quot; as it does not =
indicate a failure of the monitored VXLAN tunnel but something else, perhap=
s misconfiguration or an implementation problem.=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0It is RECOMMENDED to allow<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0addresses from the loopback range through a firewall only if i=
t is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0used as the destination IP address in the inner IP header, and=
 the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0destination UDP port is set to 3784 [RFC5881].<br>
<br>
I THINK the antecedent for =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=9D is meant to be =E2=80=9Cadd=
resses from the loopback<br>
range=E2=80=9D, though because of the number mismatch it looks like the ant=
ecedent is<br>
=E2=80=9Ca firewall=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 One fix is to change =E2=80=9Caddresses=
=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Can address=E2=80=9D, correcting the<br>
number error, but that leaves the ambiguity.=C2=A0 Maybe betterto make it =
=E2=80=9Conly if<br>
they are used as destination IP addresses=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Also, remove the =
comma.=C2=A0</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
That fixes the sentence as written, but I also agree with Ben=E2=80=99s com=
ment that<br>
this might need more significant rewording.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt=
; Thank you for your thorough consideration of the text and your thoughtful=
 suggestion. I&#39;ve followed the second of your suggested changes. Will w=
ork on improving the text with Ben.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=E2=80=94 Section 4 =E2=80=94<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD packet MUST be encapsulated and sent to a remote VTEP as<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0explained in this section.<br>
<br>
This needs to be either =E2=80=9CA BFD packet=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CBFD pack=
ets=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CVTEPs=E2=80=9D.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt;=
=C2=A0 I&#39;ve followed the second option as the next sentence uses the pl=
ural form.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The MAC address MAY be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured, or it MAY be learned via a co=
ntrol plane protocol.<br>
<br>
Are those the only two choices?=C2=A0 As both =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D are opt=
ional, as written it<br>
allows for others.=C2=A0 I suggest not using BCP 14 key words here, and ins=
tead<br>
saying, =E2=80=9CThe MAC address is either configured or learned via a cont=
rol plane<br>
protocol.=E2=80=9D<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I agree.=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0addresses the scenario when the inner IP =
destination address is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of VXLAN gateway and there is a router in=
 underlay which<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0removes the VXLAN header, then it is poss=
ible to route the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet as VXLAN=C2=A0 gateway address is =
routable address.<br>
<br>
This sentence is too fractured for me to make any sense of it, so I can=E2=
=80=99t<br>
suggest a fix.=C2=A0 Please fix it.=C2=A0 It looks like Ben made more sense=
 of it than I<br>
could, so maybe his suggestion will work.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; =
I agree. I&#39;ll update the passage while discussing Ben&#39;s comments.</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=E2=80=94 Section 5 =E2=80=94<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0received VXLAN packet MUST follow the procedures described in<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 4.1 [RFC7348].<br>
<br>
This needs to say =E2=80=9CSection 4.1 of [RFC7348].=E2=80=9D<br></blockquo=
te><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Accepted, done.=C2=A0</div></div></div>

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From nobody Wed Dec 18 12:20:27 2019
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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 15:24:48 -0500
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-bfd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Benjamin,

On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 03:43:13PM -0800, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote:
> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I have a few points that I think merit IESG discussion.
> 
> (1) I see that several directorate reviewers expressed unease at the
> destination (IP and) MAC address assignment procedure for the inner
> VXLAN headers, and appreciate that there was extensive on-list
> discussion (more than I could follow).  That said, I failed to find a
> clear statement of why the current text is believed to be safe, and in
> fact my reading of the current text is that the described procedure is
> *not* safe.  Pointers to key parts of the WG discusison would be more
> than welcome!

One high level point that likely didn't survive the rather verbose comment
chain is there are two implementations of this draft.  Some of the
considerations covered in the guidance here is "please don't break shipping
code".

While this is IETF, and shipping code isn't always a blocking point to
document changes, I'd suggest that as a consideration.

> To take something of a high-level view of my concerns, if we think of
> the VXLAN as being a tunnel between VTEPs that carry encapsulated tenant
> traffic, then what we're trying to do is roughly like BFD between VTEPs,
> but we want to get fault-detection over as broad a coverage as we can
> (the "outermost part of the tunnel"), so we want to have the option of
> per-VNI BFD instead of just endpoint-to-endpoint (VTEP-to-VTEP).

You've summarized this clearly.  Joel Halpern, in particular, raised this
point multiple times.  Effectively, "what are we testing?"  And the response
not clearly converging on exactly one of the two possibilities.

As is noted in the various IESG discussion, each of the two test points
raise slightly different considerations.

> However, we end up having to do this by trying to insert a thin filter
> into the tenant's address space (i.e., the inner VXLAN header) and pick
> out the specific stream of BFD traffic that we're introducing.  This is,
> in some sense, a namespace grab in what is conceptually the tenant's
> namespace, and we have to be careful that what we do is either
> guaranteed to not impact the tenant or well-documented and
> compartmentalized (akin to the "well-known URIs").

Possibly, and it's certainly a consideration.  However, I think I'm less
convinced of it being quite the level of violation that seems to be
reflected in the rest of the IESG comments in the various other threads.
I'll respond to that detail a bit below.

> I've made comments at several places in the document that are more
> directly tied to specific pieces of text, but in general, if we assume
> that the tenant can add/remove new addresses at will within their VXLAN
> abstration, then any attempt to preconfigure by mutual agreement the BFD
> addresses to use at the VTEPs or to use the VTEP's normal (outer)
> address as the sentinel value seems subject to the tenant coming in and
> subsequently trying to use that address, leading to (some of) the
> tenant's traffic getting silently filtered and interpreted by the VTEP.
> If we were using domain names as identifiers, we could allocate
> something under .arpa or similar, but I think our options are more
> limited when numerical addresses are used.
> 
> The option suggested by the rtg-dir reviewer of always using the
> management VNI does not suffer from this namespacing issue, though I
> recognize that it does reduce the scope over which fault-detection is
> available, for the cases when different VNIs' traffic are routed or
> handled differently.

This is a clean summary of the considerations.  At least a portion of the WG
seems to be comfortable with "test to the management VNI".  However, another
(smaller, I believe) portion were wanting to test one layer further in.

> (2) Section 6 says:
> 
>                                                          The selection
>    of the VNI number of the Management VNI MUST be controlled through
>    management plane.  An implementation MAY use VNI number 1 as the
>    default value for the Management VNI.  All VXLAN packets received on
>    the Management VNI MUST be processed locally and MUST NOT be
>    forwarded to a tenant.
> 
> It seems like the management VNI concept is something that would apply
> to the entire VXLAN deployment and not just to the BFD-using portions;
> is this already defined somewhere (in which case we should reference
> it), or is it new with this document?  In the latter case wouldn't it be
> an update to the core VXLAN spec?  (I note that there are some
> procedural hoops to jump through for an IETF-stream document to update
> an ISE-stream document...)

The relevant portion of the archive will have the Subject: line text
including:
"Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP"

A portion of the discussion relating to the magic number of the management
VNI suggested '1', instead of '0'.

At least some implementations already use '0':
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/6WfSATmfoPv4AD6RmD-Xb7zz4CE

The argument to not use '0' starts roughly here:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/z8E_a5k_r4pLLs5YfNsL_Xm9_Us

You're correct, IMO, that there's no standard practice and the above seems
to support this.  I believe this leaves the document authors in the position
of being requested to make a recommendation for the default value of this
field and knowing that the default would be invalid on some platforms.

The alternative is requiring implementations to always configure this value.

I suggest the IESG determine whether it wants a default value here or not.
If not, the text should be adjusted to require configuration.  If yes, the
IESG should consider whether the nvo3 group should produce some document
that covers current operational practices.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6).  There could be a firewall
>    configured on VTEP to block loopback addresses if set as the
>    destination IP in the inner IP header.  It is RECOMMENDED to allow
>    addresses from the loopback range through a firewall only if it is
>    used as the destination IP address in the inner IP header, and the
>    destination UDP port is set to 3784 [RFC5881].
> 
> I think we should reword this to make it clear that the default behavior
> is still "block all incoming traffic with loopback destination" and that
> the exception is tightly scoped to the encapsulated VXLAN traffic
> discussed in this document and the specific destination port *and when
> BFD has been configured for the VTEP*.  I note that well-known ports are
> not reserved ports, and we have no guarangee that only a BFD
> implementation would be listening on port 3784.

I don't think this consideration is necessarily critical.

BFD implementations residing in the related instance communicating to other
instances across the vxlan environment would be using RFC 5881 or RFC 5883
style BFD.  Since this isn't a tunneled BFD, the IP endpoints of the BFD
control traffic will be unicast addresses rather than the reserved
"loopback" ranges; i.e. 127/8 ::FFFF:127.0.0.0/104.  In order for those
ranges to be problematic, it'd be necessary for the client to be able to
manually encapsulate a vxlan packet - a security issue of its own.

A related point in this discussion is "we're hijacking an address managed by
the local tenant".  While true, it's in the above ranges and thus somewhat
under the auspice of the host OS to assert control.  I'm aware of some
unusual applications that make use of configured addresses in those ranges
for on-box communications, but they're also on the unusual end of things.

What sort of text would you want to cover the case that when BFD is run
up-to-the-tenant mode in this circumstance that an address MUST be reserved
for the BFD over vxlan application and that this address SHALL NOT be
available to the tenant for its own use?

>    VXLAN packet.  The choice of Destination MAC and Destination IP
>    addresses for the inner Ethernet frame MUST ensure that the BFD
>    Control packet is not forwarded to a tenant but is processed locally
>    at the remote VTEP.  [...]
> 
> This has to be 100% reliable, and I think we need to provide some
> example mechanism that has that property even if we don't mandate that
> it be the only allowed mechanism.

The consideration here, I believe, is that there's currently too much
latitude by implementations as to what MAC addresses they use here.
Restrict one case, you may break some implementation.

The missing element is how a pair of implementations of BFD for vxlan
discover the necessary information?  As far as BFD is concerned, "tell me!"
This seems like work that belongs in nvo3.

>          Destination MAC: This MUST NOT be of one of tenant's MAC
>          addresses.  The destination MAC address MAY be the address
> 
> But the tenant can start using new MAC addresses at any time!  How is
> BFD-over-VXLAN going to dynamically detect and avoid that?

See above.  Either it's coordinated with the ability to prevent the tenant
from using it or the underlying vxlan environment needs to provide some
mechanism to discover what's been provisioned.

>          associated with the destination VTEP.  The MAC address MAY be
>          configured, or it MAY be learned via a control plane protocol.
>          The details of how the MAC address is obtained are outside the
>          scope of this document.
> 
> This all talks about the MAC address being relatively static
> configuration, but per above, I don't think that's safe in the face of a
> MUST-level requirement to avoid conflicting with tenant MAC addresses.

But is it BFD's responsibility to figure this out?  This is what the
document is suggesting - a higher level with access to the implementation
specifics should be supplying the BFD provisioning information.  Or manual
provisioning in the absence thereof.

-- Jeff


From nobody Wed Dec 18 12:27:19 2019
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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 15:31:45 -0500
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "bfd-chairs@ietf.org" <bfd-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Vyncke's_Discus?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?s?= on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Carlos, Ã‰ric,

Note that I'm not an expert in the underlying MPLS technologies.  I'll make
two notes:

BFD for vxlan is in a similar feature-space as RFC 5884, BFD for MPLS.

RFC 5884, section 7, paragraph 3, suggests a TTL of 1 and provides a
reference to RFC 4379.

RFC 4379, section 4.3, provides procedures for TTL of 1.

My personal inference would be that implementations at least in MPLS-land
really want the TTL to be 1 for purposes of doing appropriate encapsulation
checks. 

I agree that GTSM procedures would suggest we may want TTL of 255.

I suggest the answer we're looking for here would be provided by parties
with appropriate history on why RFC 4379 recommends its procedures.  

Failing that, I suspect BFD for vxlan is no worse than 4379.

-- Jeff


On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 05:17:11PM +0000, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote:
> Hi, Ã‰ric,
> 
> Regarding you first DISCUSS element, I had brought up the same issue. See the 2nd point at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/BL9Ob66Yxie4wX13yZJELbYPLJs
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Carlos.
> 
> 2019/12/17 åˆå‰3:51ã€Ã‰ric Vyncke via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org<mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>ã®ãƒ¡ãƒ¼ãƒ«:
> 
> Ã‰ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: Discuss
> 
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> 
> 
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Thank you for the work put into this document.
> 
> I fully second Adam's COMMENT that should be fixed before publication (IMHO
> this is a DISCUSS).
> 
> Answers to my COMMENTs below will be welcome, even if those COMMENTs are not
> blocking.
> 
> As usual, an answer to the DISCUSS is required to clear my DISCUSS though.
> 
> I hope that this helps to improve the document,
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -Ã©ric
> 
> == DISCUSS ==
> 
> May be I am not familiar enough with BFD, but, RFC 5881 (the one defining BFD)
> specifies the use of TTL = Hop Limit = 255.. Why this document uses a value of
> 1 ?
> 
> -- Section 3 --
> IPv4-mapped IPv6 addresses are only to be used inside a host and should never
> be transmitted in real packets (including packets inside a tunnel) see section
> 4.2 of RFC 4038 (even if informational). As other IESG reviewers, I wonder why
> ::1/128 is not used?
> 
> -- Section 8 --
> The document specifies no IANA actions while the shepherd write-up talks about
> a IANA action.
> 
> -- Section 9 --
> This section is only about IPv4 (TTL and RFC 1812). Please address IPv6 as well.
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> == COMMENTS ==
> 
> RFC 5881 (BFD) states that it applies to IPv4/IPv6 tunnels, may I infer that
> this document is only required to address the Ethernet encapsulation ? I.e.
> specifying the Ethernet MAC addresses?
> 
> -- Section 3 --
> At first sight, I was surprized by having a BFD session per VXLAN VNI as it
> will create some scalability issue, but, I assume that this is to detect
> misconfiguration as well. If so, perhaps worth mentionnig the reasoning behind?
> 
> In "the inner destination IP address SHOULD" it is unclear whether it is in the
> all BFD packets, or only the request one or ... ?
> 
> -- Section 4 --
> While probably defined in RFC7348, should "FCS" be renamed as "Outer Ethernet
> FCS" for consistency with the "Outer Ethernet Header" in figure 2 ?
> 
> Why not using the Source MAC address as the Destination MAC address ? This
> would ensure that there is no conflict at the expense of "forcing" the
> transmission of the frame even if addressed to itself.
> 
> Please consider rewriting the section about TTL/Hop Limit as it is not easy to
> parse/read.
> 
> -- Section 9 --
> It is unclear to me (see also Ben's comment) what is the 'attack vector' of
> sending packets with TTL=1 ?
> 
> 
> 


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
CC: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "bfd-chairs@ietf.org" <bfd-chairs@ietf.org>
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From nobody Wed Dec 18 13:36:41 2019
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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 16:41:02 -0500
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "bfd-chairs@ietf.org" <bfd-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Vyncke's_Discus?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?s?= on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Carlos,

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 09:28:30PM +0000, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote:
> The TTL of 1 recommended for RFC 4379 / RFC 8029 S4.3 is because if the MPLS packet is mis-routed, or there's a forwarding mis-programming, then an MPLS LSE pop would expose the BFD packet and so that the BFD is not further mis-forwarded.
> 
> In the VXLAN case an intermediate router would not remove the VXLAN encap because the outer encap is IP (with a destination address, not an MPLS Label that can be mis-interpreted in context) and a mid-point router would not understand VXLAN.

Explained, that now seems obvious.  Thanks. :-)

But given that point, what precisely is the objection to the inner IP header
of the BFD for vxlan having a TTL of 1?

I think this is partially a matter of attack spaces varying depending on
whether we're targeting the management VNI vs. a tenant.  In the case of the
management VNI, we (should) have very strong control over what BFD traffic
is getting encapsulated.  

However, for tenant VNI mode, is the argument that depending on what the
other vxlan PDU parameters look like, tenant sourced BFD PDUs may be
indistinguishable from ones sourced by the management infrastructure?  And
if so, how would GTSM help us here?

-- Jeff


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From: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>
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Subject: Re: [Gen-art] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 16:46:36 -0500
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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
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Erik, thanks for your review. Greg, thanks for addressing Erik=E2=80=99s =
comments. I entered a No Objection ballot.

Alissa


> On Dec 17, 2019, at 6:17 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Erik,
> thank you for your reviews and for sharing thoughts on the selection =
of the destination IPv6 address. Following recommendations from Adam, =
I've updated the document to use the proper representation of IPv6 =
addresses and refer to them as "IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback addresses". =
These updates are in the attached diff.. Adam also noted that RFC 8504 =
doesn't have a similar wording regarding the handling of packets =
addressed to an address from 127/8 network as RFC 1812 (of course, =
referring to IPv4-mapped 127/8 addresses):
>       A router SHOULD NOT forward, except over a loopback interface, =
any
>       packet that has a destination address on network 127.  A router
>       MAY have a switch that allows the network manager to disable =
these
>       checks.  If such a switch is provided, it MUST default to
>       performing the checks.
> I'd note, that the egress BFD system is expected to accept a BFD =
packet with the destination IP address from the specified range without =
being provisioned for the specific address from that range. Perhaps that =
makes the use of this range possible even though its special handling is =
not explicitly documented.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Greg
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 9:19 PM Erik Kline via Datatracker =
<noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>> wrote:
> Reviewer: Erik Kline
> Review result: Ready with Nits
>=20
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
> by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your
> document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>=20
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
>=20
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq =
<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>>.
>=20
> Document: draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-??
> Reviewer: Erik Kline
> Review Date: 2019-12-16
> IETF LC End Date: None
> IESG Telechat date: 2019-12-19
>=20
> Summary:
>=20
> -09 addresses my concerns from -07.  Thank you for this.
>=20
> The one "nit" is that it seems to have introduced a recommendation to =
use
> ::ffff:7f00:0/104 as an IPv6 loopback prefix.  (a) This document =
should follow
> the format recommendations of RFC 5952 section 4.3 and lowercase the =
"F"s.  But
> (b) more importantly, I'm not sure how implementations may treats this =
space.
>=20
> The use of an RFC4291 section-2.5.5.2 mapped v4 address doesn't =
necessarily
> make the packet a part of an IPv6 connection.  Nevertheless, I'm not =
sure I
> have a strong feeling about this as it may still exercise enough of =
the IPv6
> stack in a VTEP.
>=20
> I definitely do think that in the case of BFD on the management VNI =
targeting
> an IPv6 link-local address of the VTEP would be better.  However, I =
expect that
> if ::ffff:127.0.0.0 does prove to have some issues in the future a =
-bis can be
> written quickly with a recommendation.
>=20
> Also, Suresh may have ideas for a solution.
>=20
> Major issues:
>=20
> Minor issues:
>=20
> Nits/editorial comments:
>=20
>=20
> <Diff_ draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09.txt - =
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-10.txt.html>_________________________________________=
______
> Gen-art mailing list
> Gen-art@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Erik,=
 thanks for your review. Greg, thanks for addressing Erik=E2=80=99s =
comments. I entered a No Objection ballot.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Alissa</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Dec 17, 2019, at 6:17 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hi Erik,<div class=3D"">thank you =
for your reviews and for sharing thoughts on the selection of the =
destination IPv6 address. Following recommendations from Adam, I've =
updated the document to use the proper representation of IPv6 addresses =
and refer to them as "IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback addresses". These =
updates are in the attached diff.. Adam also noted that RFC 8504 doesn't =
have a similar wording regarding the handling of packets addressed to an =
address from 127/8 network as RFC 1812 (of course, referring to =
IPv4-mapped 127/8 addresses):</div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A router SHOULD =
NOT forward, except over a loopback interface, any<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; packet that has a destination address on network =
127.&nbsp; A router<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; MAY have a switch =
that allows the network manager to disable these<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; checks.&nbsp; If such a switch is provided, it MUST =
default to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; performing the checks.<br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I'd note, that the egress BFD system is =
expected to accept a BFD packet with the destination IP address from the =
specified range without being provisioned for the specific address from =
that range. Perhaps that makes the use of this range possible even =
though its special handling is not explicitly documented.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Best regards,</div><div =
class=3D"">Greg</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 9:19 PM Erik Kline via =
Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Reviewer: Erik Kline<br =
class=3D"">
Review result: Ready with Nits<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area<br =
class=3D"">
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed<br =
class=3D"">
by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your<br =
class=3D"">
document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
For more information, please see the FAQ at<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&lt;<a href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq</a>&gt;.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Document: draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-??<br class=3D"">
Reviewer: Erik Kline<br class=3D"">
Review Date: 2019-12-16<br class=3D"">
IETF LC End Date: None<br class=3D"">
IESG Telechat date: 2019-12-19<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Summary:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-09 addresses my concerns from -07.&nbsp; Thank you for this.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The one "nit" is that it seems to have introduced a recommendation to =
use<br class=3D"">
::ffff:7f00:0/104 as an IPv6 loopback prefix.&nbsp; (a) This document =
should follow<br class=3D"">
the format recommendations of RFC 5952 section 4.3 and lowercase the =
"F"s.&nbsp; But<br class=3D"">
(b) more importantly, I'm not sure how implementations may treats this =
space.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The use of an RFC4291 section-2.5.5.2 mapped v4 address doesn't =
necessarily<br class=3D"">
make the packet a part of an IPv6 connection.&nbsp; Nevertheless, I'm =
not sure I<br class=3D"">
have a strong feeling about this as it may still exercise enough of the =
IPv6<br class=3D"">
stack in a VTEP.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I definitely do think that in the case of BFD on the management VNI =
targeting<br class=3D"">
an IPv6 link-local address of the VTEP would be better.&nbsp; However, I =
expect that<br class=3D"">
if ::ffff:127.0.0.0 does prove to have some issues in the future a -bis =
can be<br class=3D"">
written quickly with a recommendation.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Also, Suresh may have ideas for a solution.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Major issues:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Minor issues:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Nits/editorial comments:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div></div>
<span id=3D"cid:f_k4ahloo20">&lt;Diff_ draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09.txt - =
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-10.txt.html&gt;</span>_______________________________=
________________<br class=3D"">Gen-art mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Gen-art@ietf.org" class=3D"">Gen-art@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_02263575-B3D2-4F2D-8047-F9333AC950FF--


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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 14:02:46 -0800
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-bfd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Jeff,

I think I can only touch on a few points before telechat-time rolls around,
and will finish off afterwards.

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 03:24:48PM -0500, Jeffrey Haas wrote:
> Benjamin,
> 
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 03:43:13PM -0800, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote:
> > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > DISCUSS:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > I have a few points that I think merit IESG discussion.
> > 
> > (1) I see that several directorate reviewers expressed unease at the
> > destination (IP and) MAC address assignment procedure for the inner
> > VXLAN headers, and appreciate that there was extensive on-list
> > discussion (more than I could follow).  That said, I failed to find a
> > clear statement of why the current text is believed to be safe, and in
> > fact my reading of the current text is that the described procedure is
> > *not* safe.  Pointers to key parts of the WG discusison would be more
> > than welcome!
> 
> One high level point that likely didn't survive the rather verbose comment
> chain is there are two implementations of this draft.  Some of the
> considerations covered in the guidance here is "please don't break shipping
> code".
> 
> While this is IETF, and shipping code isn't always a blocking point to
> document changes, I'd suggest that as a consideration.

It did indeed not survive (at least my pass through) the comment chain, so
thank you for calling it out.  It is indeed a consideration, and I expect
some actual discussion on the call tomorrow.

> > To take something of a high-level view of my concerns, if we think of
> > the VXLAN as being a tunnel between VTEPs that carry encapsulated tenant
> > traffic, then what we're trying to do is roughly like BFD between VTEPs,
> > but we want to get fault-detection over as broad a coverage as we can
> > (the "outermost part of the tunnel"), so we want to have the option of
> > per-VNI BFD instead of just endpoint-to-endpoint (VTEP-to-VTEP).
> 
> You've summarized this clearly.  Joel Halpern, in particular, raised this
> point multiple times.  Effectively, "what are we testing?"  And the response
> not clearly converging on exactly one of the two possibilities.
> 
> As is noted in the various IESG discussion, each of the two test points
> raise slightly different considerations.
> 
> > However, we end up having to do this by trying to insert a thin filter
> > into the tenant's address space (i.e., the inner VXLAN header) and pick
> > out the specific stream of BFD traffic that we're introducing.  This is,
> > in some sense, a namespace grab in what is conceptually the tenant's
> > namespace, and we have to be careful that what we do is either
> > guaranteed to not impact the tenant or well-documented and
> > compartmentalized (akin to the "well-known URIs").
> 
> Possibly, and it's certainly a consideration.  However, I think I'm less
> convinced of it being quite the level of violation that seems to be
> reflected in the rest of the IESG comments in the various other threads.
> I'll respond to that detail a bit below.
> 
> > I've made comments at several places in the document that are more
> > directly tied to specific pieces of text, but in general, if we assume
> > that the tenant can add/remove new addresses at will within their VXLAN
> > abstration, then any attempt to preconfigure by mutual agreement the BFD
> > addresses to use at the VTEPs or to use the VTEP's normal (outer)
> > address as the sentinel value seems subject to the tenant coming in and
> > subsequently trying to use that address, leading to (some of) the
> > tenant's traffic getting silently filtered and interpreted by the VTEP.
> > If we were using domain names as identifiers, we could allocate
> > something under .arpa or similar, but I think our options are more
> > limited when numerical addresses are used.
> > 
> > The option suggested by the rtg-dir reviewer of always using the
> > management VNI does not suffer from this namespacing issue, though I
> > recognize that it does reduce the scope over which fault-detection is
> > available, for the cases when different VNIs' traffic are routed or
> > handled differently.
> 
> This is a clean summary of the considerations.  At least a portion of the WG
> seems to be comfortable with "test to the management VNI".  However, another
> (smaller, I believe) portion were wanting to test one layer further in.

It is reassuring that I at least managed to summarize the situation
tolerably.  Is it fair to say that testing "one layer further in" is a
superset of what "test to the managemenet VNI" can do?

> > (2) Section 6 says:
> > 
> >                                                          The selection
> >    of the VNI number of the Management VNI MUST be controlled through
> >    management plane.  An implementation MAY use VNI number 1 as the
> >    default value for the Management VNI.  All VXLAN packets received on
> >    the Management VNI MUST be processed locally and MUST NOT be
> >    forwarded to a tenant.
> > 
> > It seems like the management VNI concept is something that would apply
> > to the entire VXLAN deployment and not just to the BFD-using portions;
> > is this already defined somewhere (in which case we should reference
> > it), or is it new with this document?  In the latter case wouldn't it be
> > an update to the core VXLAN spec?  (I note that there are some
> > procedural hoops to jump through for an IETF-stream document to update
> > an ISE-stream document...)
> 
> The relevant portion of the archive will have the Subject: line text
> including:
> "Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP"
> 
> A portion of the discussion relating to the magic number of the management
> VNI suggested '1', instead of '0'.
> 
> At least some implementations already use '0':
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/6WfSATmfoPv4AD6RmD-Xb7zz4CE
> 
> The argument to not use '0' starts roughly here:
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/z8E_a5k_r4pLLs5YfNsL_Xm9_Us
> 
> You're correct, IMO, that there's no standard practice and the above seems
> to support this.  I believe this leaves the document authors in the position
> of being requested to make a recommendation for the default value of this
> field and knowing that the default would be invalid on some platforms.
> 
> The alternative is requiring implementations to always configure this value.
> 
> I suggest the IESG determine whether it wants a default value here or not.
> If not, the text should be adjusted to require configuration.  If yes, the
> IESG should consider whether the nvo3 group should produce some document
> that covers current operational practices.

That does sound like something we should try to talk about on the telechat
as well; thanks for raising it so clearly.

> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > COMMENT:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >    0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6).  There could be a firewall
> >    configured on VTEP to block loopback addresses if set as the
> >    destination IP in the inner IP header.  It is RECOMMENDED to allow
> >    addresses from the loopback range through a firewall only if it is
> >    used as the destination IP address in the inner IP header, and the
> >    destination UDP port is set to 3784 [RFC5881].
> > 
> > I think we should reword this to make it clear that the default behavior
> > is still "block all incoming traffic with loopback destination" and that
> > the exception is tightly scoped to the encapsulated VXLAN traffic
> > discussed in this document and the specific destination port *and when
> > BFD has been configured for the VTEP*.  I note that well-known ports are
> > not reserved ports, and we have no guarangee that only a BFD
> > implementation would be listening on port 3784.
> 
> I don't think this consideration is necessarily critical.

I think I'm in agreement about its criticality, and will see if I can come
up with some actual text ... later.

-Ben

> BFD implementations residing in the related instance communicating to other
> instances across the vxlan environment would be using RFC 5881 or RFC 5883
> style BFD.  Since this isn't a tunneled BFD, the IP endpoints of the BFD
> control traffic will be unicast addresses rather than the reserved
> "loopback" ranges; i.e. 127/8 ::FFFF:127.0.0.0/104.  In order for those
> ranges to be problematic, it'd be necessary for the client to be able to
> manually encapsulate a vxlan packet - a security issue of its own.
> 
> A related point in this discussion is "we're hijacking an address managed by
> the local tenant".  While true, it's in the above ranges and thus somewhat
> under the auspice of the host OS to assert control.  I'm aware of some
> unusual applications that make use of configured addresses in those ranges
> for on-box communications, but they're also on the unusual end of things.
> 
> What sort of text would you want to cover the case that when BFD is run
> up-to-the-tenant mode in this circumstance that an address MUST be reserved
> for the BFD over vxlan application and that this address SHALL NOT be
> available to the tenant for its own use?
> 
> >    VXLAN packet.  The choice of Destination MAC and Destination IP
> >    addresses for the inner Ethernet frame MUST ensure that the BFD
> >    Control packet is not forwarded to a tenant but is processed locally
> >    at the remote VTEP.  [...]
> > 
> > This has to be 100% reliable, and I think we need to provide some
> > example mechanism that has that property even if we don't mandate that
> > it be the only allowed mechanism.
> 
> The consideration here, I believe, is that there's currently too much
> latitude by implementations as to what MAC addresses they use here.
> Restrict one case, you may break some implementation.
> 
> The missing element is how a pair of implementations of BFD for vxlan
> discover the necessary information?  As far as BFD is concerned, "tell me!"
> This seems like work that belongs in nvo3.
> 
> >          Destination MAC: This MUST NOT be of one of tenant's MAC
> >          addresses.  The destination MAC address MAY be the address
> > 
> > But the tenant can start using new MAC addresses at any time!  How is
> > BFD-over-VXLAN going to dynamically detect and avoid that?
> 
> See above.  Either it's coordinated with the ability to prevent the tenant
> from using it or the underlying vxlan environment needs to provide some
> mechanism to discover what's been provisioned.
> 
> >          associated with the destination VTEP.  The MAC address MAY be
> >          configured, or it MAY be learned via a control plane protocol.
> >          The details of how the MAC address is obtained are outside the
> >          scope of this document.
> > 
> > This all talks about the MAC address being relatively static
> > configuration, but per above, I don't think that's safe in the face of a
> > MUST-level requirement to avoid conflicting with tenant MAC addresses.
> 
> But is it BFD's responsibility to figure this out?  This is what the
> document is suggesting - a higher level with access to the implementation
> specifics should be supplying the BFD provisioning information.  Or manual
> provisioning in the absence thereof.
> 
> -- Jeff


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To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
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Ben,

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 02:02:46PM -0800, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 03:24:48PM -0500, Jeffrey Haas wrote:
> > This is a clean summary of the considerations.  At least a portion of the WG
> > seems to be comfortable with "test to the management VNI".  However, another
> > (smaller, I believe) portion were wanting to test one layer further in.
> 
> It is reassuring that I at least managed to summarize the situation
> tolerably.  Is it fair to say that testing "one layer further in" is a
> superset of what "test to the managemenet VNI" can do?

Fundamentally, this is all BFD.  The issue is almost always considerations
related to encapsulation.

The meta concern here is that if you test to the management VNI, the
operator has a lot of control over things that are clean from a security
perspective.

The minute you test one layer deeper, it's still the same thing... but you
now have a lot of sharp edges you have to worry about.

In all of these situations, the main consideration from a security
perspective and an encapsulation perspective is "don't step on the toes of
the user".  But that said, vxlan environments are provided to contain
tenants, have their own provisioning ecosystems, and security considerations
in how they are provisioned and operated.  As long as the security and
operational considerations are understood by the operator, they can decide
whether "testing one layer further in" gives them good benefit vs. the
additional security considerations.

And that said, two fundamental portions of BFD operations and security still
apply here:
- Discriminators need to be known to mess with existing sessions.  This
  means the main consideration for someone not in the tenant environment is
  privacy.  Such privacy is an overall consideration for vxlan environments.
- Authentication mechanisms in BFD may still be deployed which further
  reduce the attack space.

Basically, if your vxlan environment is appropriately operated and secured,
the main attacker of this session is the tenant itself.  And they have all
sorts of bad things they can do to knock down their own reachability from
one VTEP to another.  I.e. it's a stupid attack. :-)


-- Jeff


From nobody Wed Dec 18 18:20:02 2019
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 18:19:45 -0800
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Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_Discuss_on_draft=2Dietf=2Dbfd=2Dvxlan=2D0?= =?UTF-8?Q?9=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>,  "bfd-chairs@ietf.org" <bfd-chairs@ietf.org>
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Hi Carlos, Jeff, et al.,
thank you for a very insightful discussion.
Based on the input from the experts familiar with VXLAN deployment scenario
the following text was added to justify the requirement to set TTL or Hop
Limit to 1:
         TTL or Hop Limit: MUST be set to 1 to ensure that the BFD
         packet is not routed within the Layer 3 underlay network.  This
         addresses the scenario when the inner IP destination address is
         of VXLAN gateway and there is a router in underlay which
         removes the VXLAN header, then it is possible to route the
         packet as VXLAN  gateway address is routable address.

Best regards,
Greg

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:36 PM Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

> Carlos,
>
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 09:28:30PM +0000, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
> wrote:
> > The TTL of 1 recommended for RFC 4379 / RFC 8029 S4.3 is because if the
> MPLS packet is mis-routed, or there's a forwarding mis-programming, then an
> MPLS LSE pop would expose the BFD packet and so that the BFD is not further
> mis-forwarded.
> >
> > In the VXLAN case an intermediate router would not remove the VXLAN
> encap because the outer encap is IP (with a destination address, not an
> MPLS Label that can be mis-interpreted in context) and a mid-point router
> would not understand VXLAN.
>
> Explained, that now seems obvious.  Thanks. :-)
>
> But given that point, what precisely is the objection to the inner IP
> header
> of the BFD for vxlan having a TTL of 1?
>
> I think this is partially a matter of attack spaces varying depending on
> whether we're targeting the management VNI vs. a tenant.  In the case of
> the
> management VNI, we (should) have very strong control over what BFD traffic
> is getting encapsulated.
>
> However, for tenant VNI mode, is the argument that depending on what the
> other vxlan PDU parameters look like, tenant sourced BFD PDUs may be
> indistinguishable from ones sourced by the management infrastructure?  And
> if so, how would GTSM help us here?
>
> -- Jeff
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos, Jeff, et al.,<div>thank you for a very insightf=
ul discussion.</div><div>Based on the input from the experts familiar with =
VXLAN deployment scenario the following text was added to justify the requi=
rement to set TTL or Hop Limit to 1:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0TTL or Hop Limit: MUST be set to 1 to ensure that the BFD<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet is not routed within the Layer 3 underlay=
 network.=C2=A0 This<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0addresses the sce=
nario when the inner IP destination address is<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0of VXLAN gateway and there is a router in underlay which<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0removes the VXLAN header, then it is possibl=
e to route the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet as VXLAN =C2=A0g=
ateway address is routable address.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Best regar=
ds,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"lt=
r" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:36 PM Jeffrey Haas &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Carlos,<br>
<br>
On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 09:28:30PM +0000, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote=
:<br>
&gt; The TTL of 1 recommended for RFC 4379 / RFC 8029 S4.3 is because if th=
e MPLS packet is mis-routed, or there&#39;s a forwarding mis-programming, t=
hen an MPLS LSE pop would expose the BFD packet and so that the BFD is not =
further mis-forwarded.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; In the VXLAN case an intermediate router would not remove the VXLAN en=
cap because the outer encap is IP (with a destination address, not an MPLS =
Label that can be mis-interpreted in context) and a mid-point router would =
not understand VXLAN.<br>
<br>
Explained, that now seems obvious.=C2=A0 Thanks. :-)<br>
<br>
But given that point, what precisely is the objection to the inner IP heade=
r<br>
of the BFD for vxlan having a TTL of 1?<br>
<br>
I think this is partially a matter of attack spaces varying depending on<br=
>
whether we&#39;re targeting the management VNI vs. a tenant.=C2=A0 In the c=
ase of the<br>
management VNI, we (should) have very strong control over what BFD traffic<=
br>
is getting encapsulated.=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
However, for tenant VNI mode, is the argument that depending on what the<br=
>
other vxlan PDU parameters look like, tenant sourced BFD PDUs may be<br>
indistinguishable from ones sourced by the management infrastructure?=C2=A0=
 And<br>
if so, how would GTSM help us here?<br>
<br>
-- Jeff<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000854ae1059a05322b--


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Subject: Re: Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with COMMENT)
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
References: <157656670090.24465.17703971379844970449.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CA+RyBmXq2ZmLm0CfOcykSPowQrx6TYfWNyVi9gPvXgDpnZY4Ow@mail.gmail.com>
From: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 20:37:03 -0600
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On 12/17/19 4:35 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> Hi Adam,
> thank you for your review and the very clear suggestions, all is the 
> most helpful. I've followed your recommendations and applied changes 
> to the working version of the draft. Attached, please find the diff 
> that highlights updates. Also, please find my notes in-line tagged GIM>>.
>
> Best regards,
> Greg
>
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 11:11 PM Adam Roach via Datatracker 
> <noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>> wrote:
>
>     Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for
>     draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection
>
>     When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>     email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut
>     this
>     introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>     Please refer to
>     https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>     for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
>     The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
>
>
>
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     COMMENT:
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Thanks for the work that everyone has put into this document. I have
>     a couple of relatively important, related comments that should be
>     taken into account prior to publication.
>
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Â§3:
>
>     >Â  As per Section 4, the inner destination IP address SHOULD be set to
>     >Â  one of the loopback addresses (127/8 range for IPv4 and
>     >Â  0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6).
>
>     Please consider reformatting this IPv6 address according to the
>     recommendations
>     of RFC 5952 (paying particular attention to sections 4.2.1, 4.3,
>     and 5):
>
>     ::ffff:127.0.0.0/104 <http://127.0.0.0/104>
>
>     It's also worth noting that, as a practical matter, modern
>     operating systems do
>     not seem to bind to anything in the IPv4-mapped range assigned to
>     IPv4 loopback:
>
>     Linux:
>
>     Â  ~$ ping6 ::ffff:127.0.0.1
>     Â  PING ::ffff:127.0.0.1(::ffff:127.0.0.1) 56 data bytes
>     Â  ^C
>     Â  --- ::ffff:127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
>     Â  14 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 13316ms
>
>     MacOS:
>
>     Â  ~$ ping6 ::ffff:127.0.0.1
>     Â  PING6(56=40+8+8 bytes) ::ffff:127.0.0.1 --> ::ffff:127.0.0.1
>     Â  ping6: sendmsg: Invalid argument
>     Â  ping6: wrote ::ffff:127.0.0.1 16 chars, ret=-1
>
>
>     It is not clear to me whether this poses an issue for your
>     intended usage.
>
> GIM>> Thank you for sharing very interesting facts on the handling of 
> these addresses. I don't think that implementation on the egress BFD 
> node would listen on the particular address, more likely it would be 
> on the value of the well-known UDP port. The goal of using one of the 
> addresses from this range is to prevent leaking packets from a broken 
> VXLAN tunnel (as was the original goal in RFC 4379/8029 and RFC 5884).


I'm a little unclear about the scope of leakage that is causing concern 
here. If you simply want to prevent the packets from making it to an end 
host, there are a lot of choices you can make that guarantee an address 
that has no ultimate destination.

If the concern is, instead, that the packet might be sent to one or more 
other routers when the tunnel is broken (even if it never reaches a 
host), then what you're doing here is unlikely to achieve your goals. As 
I attempted to highlight below, there is no reason to believe that an 
IPv6 router is going to treat ::ffff:127.0.0.0/104 any differently than 
any other IPv4-mapped address. Unless you're in the default-free zone, 
It's either heading towards a default router or a v6/v4 gateway, and 
probably won't be dropped until it reaches an ingress to the v4 network.

On the other hand, if you *are* in the DFZ, my my understanding (and I'm 
not a routing person, so it's kind of a lay understanding) is that 
guaranteeing a packet drop in the default-free zone simply requires that 
the corresponding prefix isn't configured or announced. The IETF 
protocol IP blocks I mention below have that property.

In short, I don't think your solution addresses your implied threat 
model (regardless of which of the preceding two situations apply), and 
at the same time is an abuse of the semantic meaning of loopback addresses.

I'm feeling like I might not understand the problem being addressed by 
this approach. Perhaps if you explained the exact nature of the bad 
things that might happen when a tunnel breaks and some other inner 
address is used (with the assumption that such inner address would never 
correspond to a real host, and would never correspond to an advertised 
route, as would be true for my suggestions below), it would help.


>
>     In any case, please do not refer to ::ffff:127.0.0.0/104
>     <http://127.0.0.0/104> as "loopback
>     addresses": IPv6 has only one loopback address defined (::1). The
>     range
>     you cite is best described as "IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback addresses."
>     Alternately -- and this is probably better -- use "::1/128" instead of
>     "::ffff:127.0.0.0/104 <http://127.0.0.0/104>" for the inner IP
>     header destination address.
>
>     As an aside, I share Benjamin's unease around the use of loopback
>     addresses
>     in this fashion. It may be worth noting that IETF protocols can
>     reserve
>     addresses in the 192.0.0.0/24 <http://192.0.0.0/24> and 2001::/23
>     blocks if necessary, and such
>     reserved addresses won't ever correspond to a valid destination.
>
>     (There is corresponding text in section 4 that all of the
>     preceding pertains
>     to as well)
>
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Â§9:
>
>     >Â  This document recommends using an address from the Internal host
>     >Â  loopback addresses (127/8 range for IPv4 and
>     >Â  0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6) as the destination IP
>     >Â  address in the inner IP header.Â  Using such address prevents the
>     >Â  forwarding of the encapsulated BFD control message by a transient
>     >Â  node in case the VXLAN tunnel is broken as according to [RFC1812]:
>     >
>     >Â  Â  Â A router SHOULD NOT forward, except over a loopback
>     interface, any
>     >Â  Â  Â packet that has a destination address on network 127.Â  A router
>     >Â  Â  Â MAY have a switch that allows the network manager to disable
>     these
>     >Â  Â  Â checks.Â  If such a switch is provided, it MUST default to
>     >Â  Â  Â performing the checks.
>
>     In addition to the comments above about IPv6 address formatting, the
>     improper use of "loopback" terminology as it applies to IPv6, and
>     concerns about using localhost: it's worth noting that this text in
>     RFC 1812 refers to IPv4 routers -- RFC 8504 has no equivalent
>     language,
>     and so the use of ::ffff:127.0.0.0/104 <http://127.0.0.0/104>
>     implies no special router handling.
>     ::1 *probably* does, at least as a practical matter.
>
> GIM>> As noted above, the reason of using addresses from this range 
> was to prevent packets from being routed in case a tunnel is broken. 
> Do you think that the lack of the wording similar to RFC 1812 should 
> be a concern for RFC 8029 and RFC 5884 that use the same range for the 
> destination IP address?
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/17/19 4:35 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+RyBmXq2ZmLm0CfOcykSPowQrx6TYfWNyVi9gPvXgDpnZY4Ow@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div dir="ltr">Hi Adam,
          <div>thank you for your review and the very clear suggestions,
            all is the most helpful. I've followed your recommendations
            and applied changes to the working version of the draft.
            Attached, please find the diff that highlights updates.
            Also, please find my notes in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Best regards,</div>
          <div>Greg</div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at
            11:11 PM Adam Roach via Datatracker &lt;<a
              href="mailto:noreply@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt;
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
            0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
            rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Adam Roach has entered
            the following ballot position for<br>
            draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection<br>
            <br>
            When responding, please keep the subject line intact and
            reply to all<br>
            email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free
            to cut this<br>
            introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            Please refer to <a
              href="https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html"
              rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
            for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT
            positions.<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            The document, along with other ballot positions, can be
            found here:<br>
            <a
              href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/"
              rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/</a><br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
            COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
            <br>
            Thanks for the work that everyone has put into this
            document. I have<br>
            a couple of relatively important, related comments that
            should be<br>
            taken into account prior to publication.<br>
            <br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
            <br>
            Â§3:<br>
            <br>
            &gt;Â  As per Section 4, the inner destination IP address
            SHOULD be set to<br>
            &gt;Â  one of the loopback addresses (127/8 range for IPv4
            and<br>
            &gt;Â  0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6).<br>
            <br>
            Please consider reformatting this IPv6 address according to
            the recommendations<br>
            of RFC 5952 (paying particular attention to sections 4.2.1,
            4.3, and 5):<br>
            <br>
            ::ffff:<a href="http://127.0.0.0/104" rel="noreferrer"
              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">127.0.0.0/104</a><br>
            <br>
            It's also worth noting that, as a practical matter, modern
            operating systems do<br>
            not seem to bind to anything in the IPv4-mapped range
            assigned to IPv4 loopback:<br>
            <br>
            Linux:<br>
            <br>
            Â  ~$ ping6 ::ffff:127.0.0.1<br>
            Â  PING ::ffff:127.0.0.1(::ffff:127.0.0.1) 56 data bytes<br>
            Â  ^C<br>
            Â  --- ::ffff:127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---<br>
            Â  14 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time
            13316ms<br>
            <br>
            MacOS:<br>
            <br>
            Â  ~$ ping6 ::ffff:127.0.0.1<br>
            Â  PING6(56=40+8+8 bytes) ::ffff:127.0.0.1 --&gt;
            ::ffff:127.0.0.1<br>
            Â  ping6: sendmsg: Invalid argument<br>
            Â  ping6: wrote ::ffff:127.0.0.1 16 chars, ret=-1<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            It is not clear to me whether this poses an issue for your
            intended usage.<br>
          </blockquote>
          <div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for sharing very interesting facts
            on the handling of these addresses. I don't think that
            implementation on the egress BFD node would listen on the
            particular address, more likely it would be on the value of
            the well-known UDP port. The goal of using one of the
            addresses from this range is to prevent leaking packets from
            a broken VXLAN tunnel (as was the original goal in RFC
            4379/8029 and RFC 5884).</div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>I'm a little unclear about the scope of leakage that is causing
      concern here. If you simply want to prevent the packets from
      making it to an end host, there are a lot of choices you can make
      that guarantee an address that has no ultimate destination.</p>
    <p>If the concern is, instead, that the packet might be sent to one
      or more other routers when the tunnel is broken (even if it never
      reaches a host), then what you're doing here is unlikely to
      achieve your goals. As I attempted to highlight below, there is no
      reason to believe that an IPv6 router is going to treat
      ::ffff:127.0.0.0/104 any differently than any other IPv4-mapped
      address. Unless you're in the default-free zone, It's either
      heading towards a default router or a v6/v4 gateway, and probably
      won't be dropped until it reaches an ingress to the v4 network.</p>
    <p>On the other hand, if you *are* in the DFZ, my my understanding
      (and I'm not a routing person, so it's kind of a lay
      understanding) is that guaranteeing a packet drop in the
      default-free zone simply requires that the corresponding prefix
      isn't configured or announced. The IETF protocol IP blocks I
      mention below have that property.<br>
    </p>
    <p>In short, I don't think your solution addresses your implied
      threat model (regardless of which of the preceding two situations
      apply), and at the same time is an abuse of the semantic meaning
      of loopback addresses. <br>
    </p>
    <p>I'm feeling like I might not understand the problem being
      addressed by this approach. Perhaps if you explained the exact
      nature of the bad things that might happen when a tunnel breaks
      and some other inner address is used (with the assumption that
      such inner address would never correspond to a real host, and
      would never correspond to an advertised route, as would be true
      for my suggestions below), it would help.<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+RyBmXq2ZmLm0CfOcykSPowQrx6TYfWNyVi9gPvXgDpnZY4Ow@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
            0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
            rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <br>
            In any case, please do not refer to ::ffff:<a
              href="http://127.0.0.0/104" rel="noreferrer"
              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">127.0.0.0/104</a>
            as "loopback<br>
            addresses": IPv6 has only one loopback address defined
            (::1). The range<br>
            you cite is best described as "IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback
            addresses."<br>
            Alternately -- and this is probably better -- use "::1/128"
            instead of<br>
            "::ffff:<a href="http://127.0.0.0/104" rel="noreferrer"
              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">127.0.0.0/104</a>"
            for the inner IP header destination address.<br>
            <br>
            As an aside, I share Benjamin's unease around the use of
            loopback addresses<br>
            in this fashion. It may be worth noting that IETF protocols
            can reserve<br>
            addresses in the <a href="http://192.0.0.0/24"
              rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">192.0.0.0/24</a>
            and 2001::/23 blocks if necessary, and such<br>
            reserved addresses won't ever correspond to a valid
            destination.<br>
            <br>
            (There is corresponding text in section 4 that all of the
            preceding pertains<br>
            to as well)<br>
            <br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
            <br>
            Â§9:<br>
            <br>
            &gt;Â  This document recommends using an address from the
            Internal host<br>
            &gt;Â  loopback addresses (127/8 range for IPv4 and<br>
            &gt;Â  0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6) as the
            destination IP<br>
            &gt;Â  address in the inner IP header.Â  Using such address
            prevents the<br>
            &gt;Â  forwarding of the encapsulated BFD control message by
            a transient<br>
            &gt;Â  node in case the VXLAN tunnel is broken as according
            to [RFC1812]:<br>
            &gt;<br>
            &gt;Â  Â  Â A router SHOULD NOT forward, except over a loopback
            interface, any<br>
            &gt;Â  Â  Â packet that has a destination address on network
            127.Â  A router<br>
            &gt;Â  Â  Â MAY have a switch that allows the network manager
            to disable these<br>
            &gt;Â  Â  Â checks.Â  If such a switch is provided, it MUST
            default to<br>
            &gt;Â  Â  Â performing the checks.<br>
            <br>
            In addition to the comments above about IPv6 address
            formatting, the<br>
            improper use of "loopback" terminology as it applies to
            IPv6, and<br>
            concerns about using localhost: it's worth noting that this
            text in<br>
            RFC 1812 refers to IPv4 routers -- RFC 8504 has no
            equivalent language,<br>
            and so the use of ::ffff:<a href="http://127.0.0.0/104"
              rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">127.0.0.0/104</a>
            implies no special router handling.<br>
            ::1 *probably* does, at least as a practical matter.<br>
          </blockquote>
          <div>GIM&gt;&gt; As noted above, the reason of using addresses
            from this range was to prevent packets from being routed in
            case a tunnel is broken. Do you think that the lack of the
            wording similar to RFC 1812 should be a concern for RFC 8029
            and RFC 5884 that use the same range for the destination IP
            address? </div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 18:09:53 -0800
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Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org,  Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Hi Eric,
thank you for your review, comments, and suggestions. Please find my
answers below under GIM>> tag. Also, attached is the diff to the working
version of the document that includes updates that Adam has suggested.

Best regards,
Greg


On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 12:51 AM =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> =C3=89ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Thank you for the work put into this document.
>
> I fully second Adam's COMMENT that should be fixed before publication (IM=
HO
> this is a DISCUSS).
>
GIM>> I've applied changes suggested by Adam to the working version of the
document.

>
> Answers to my COMMENTs below will be welcome, even if those COMMENTs are
> not
> blocking.
>
> As usual, an answer to the DISCUSS is required to clear my DISCUSS though=
.
>
> I hope that this helps to improve the document,
>
> Regards,
>
> -=C3=A9ric
>
> =3D=3D DISCUSS =3D=3D
>
> May be I am not familiar enough with BFD, but, RFC 5881 (the one defining
> BFD)
> specifies the use of TTL =3D Hop Limit =3D 255.. Why this document uses a
> value of
> 1 ?
>
GIM>> Jeff and Carlos are in a very detailed and insightful discussion.
I'll wait for its conclusion and follow on their agreement.


> -- Section 3 --
> IPv4-mapped IPv6 addresses are only to be used inside a host and should
> never
> be transmitted in real packets (including packets inside a tunnel) see
> section
> 4.2 of RFC 4038 (even if informational). As other IESG reviewers, I wonde=
r
> why
> ::1/128 is not used?
>
GIM>> The mechanism of using an address from the loopback address range or
IPv4-mapped addresses of that range may be used to create entropy and
monitor ECMP paths in an IP/MPLS network (RFC 8029 and RFC 5884). This
specification uses the same mechanism for ECMP environment in the underlay
network.

>
> -- Section 8 --
> The document specifies no IANA actions while the shepherd write-up talks
> about
> a IANA action.
>
GIM>> RtgDir review from Joel Halpern and the extensive discussion on BFD
WG list lead to this change. As a result, the request to allocate a MAC
address to be used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet
header was withdrawn and removed from the specification.

>
> -- Section 9 --
> This section is only about IPv4 (TTL and RFC 1812). Please address IPv6 a=
s
> well.
>
GIM>> Added "or Hop Limit". Please let me know if you agree. As for a IPv6
relevant reference equivalent to RFC 1812, Adam Roach has noted that RFC
8504 does not have anything of the kind. At the same time, the use of
IPv4-mapped loopback address range has been mandated in RFC 8029 and RFC
5884.

>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> =3D=3D COMMENTS =3D=3D
>
> RFC 5881 (BFD) states that it applies to IPv4/IPv6 tunnels, may I infer
> that
> this document is only required to address the Ethernet encapsulation ? I.=
e.
> specifying the Ethernet MAC addresses?
>
GIM>> There were several threads on encapsulation of BFD Control packet
over VXLAN that, in my estimation, gathered 150+ messages. As you've
noticed from the Shepherd write-up, the use of the dedicated MAC address
was proposed, discussed, and documented. But later the WG decided not to
use the dedicated MAC as the destination MAC in the inner Ethernet frame.
Similarly, we had an extended discussion, including valuable input from
implementors of BFD over VXLAN, on the selection of the destination IP
address in the inner IP header. And another set of issues was discovered
related to the selection of VXLAN VNI value when encapsulating  BFD control
packet. I hope we've analyzed all encapsulation issues and documented them
sufficiently for the benefit of future implementations.

>
> -- Section 3 --
> At first sight, I was surprized by having a BFD session per VXLAN VNI as =
it
> will create some scalability issue, but, I assume that this is to detect
> misconfiguration as well. If so, perhaps worth mentionnig the reasoning
> behind?
>
GIM>> I agree, detecting misconfiguration might be one of the reasons to
run BFD over some VXLAN VNIs. Would the following text be acceptable:

NEW TEXT:
   Using a BFD session to monitor a set of VXLAN VNIs between
   the same pair of VTEPs might help to detect and localize problems
   caused by misconfiguration.

>
> In "the inner destination IP address SHOULD" it is unclear whether it is
> in the
> all BFD packets, or only the request one or ... ?
>
GIM>> This is applicable to all BFD control packets transmitted over a
VXLAN tunnel. To clarify, I propose the following change:
OLD TEXT:
As per Section 4, the inner destination IP address SHOULD be set to ...
NEW TEXT:
   For BFD Control packets encapsulated in VXLAN
   (Figure 2), the inner destination IP address SHOULD be set to ...

>
> -- Section 4 --
> While probably defined in RFC7348, should "FCS" be renamed as "Outer
> Ethernet
> FCS" for consistency with the "Outer Ethernet Header" in figure 2 ?
>
GIM>> Would s/FCS/Outer FCS/ be acceptable?

>
> Why not using the Source MAC address as the Destination MAC address ? Thi=
s
> would ensure that there is no conflict at the expense of "forcing" the
> transmission of the frame even if addressed to itself.
>
GIM>> Based on the input from experts familar with existing
implementations, WG decided not to require the use of the specific MAC
address. I think that using the Source MAC as the Destination might be one
of the options an implementation will use.

>
> Please consider rewriting the section about TTL/Hop Limit as it is not
> easy to
> parse/read.
>
GIM>> Could you help me kindly and point to the problematic text?

>
> -- Section 9 --
> It is unclear to me (see also Ben's comment) what is the 'attack vector' =
of
> sending packets with TTL=3D1 ?
>
GIM>> Another input from experts familiar with VXLAN and its deployments
reflected in the following:
          TTL or Hop Limit: MUST be set to 1 to ensure that the BFD
         packet is not routed within the Layer 3 underlay network.  This
         addresses the scenario when the inner IP destination address is
         of VXLAN gateway and there is a router in underlay which
         removes the VXLAN header, then it is possible to route the
         packet as VXLAN  gateway address is routable address.

--0000000000003794bd059a050f51
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Eric,<div>thank you for your review, c=
omments, and suggestions. Please find my answers=C2=A0below under GIM&gt;&g=
t; tag. Also, attached is the diff to the working version of the document t=
hat includes updates that Adam has suggested.</div><div><br></div><div>Best=
 regards,</div><div>Greg</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 12:51 =
AM =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org"=
>noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex">=C3=89ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position=
 for<br>
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tatement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bf=
d-vxlan/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you for the work put into this document.<br>
<br>
I fully second Adam&#39;s COMMENT that should be fixed before publication (=
IMHO<br>
this is a DISCUSS).<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve applied chang=
es suggested by Adam to the working version of the document.=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Answers to my COMMENTs below will be welcome, even if those COMMENTs are no=
t<br>
blocking.<br>
<br>
As usual, an answer to the DISCUSS is required to clear my DISCUSS though.<=
br>
<br>
I hope that this helps to improve the document,<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
-=C3=A9ric<br>
<br>
=3D=3D DISCUSS =3D=3D<br>
<br>
May be I am not familiar enough with BFD, but, RFC 5881 (the one defining B=
FD)<br>
specifies the use of TTL =3D Hop Limit =3D 255.. Why this document uses a v=
alue of<br>
1 ?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Jeff and Carlos are in a very detailed=
 and insightful discussion. I&#39;ll wait for its conclusion and follow on =
their agreement.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- Section 3 --<br>
IPv4-mapped IPv6 addresses are only to be used inside a host and should nev=
er<br>
be transmitted in real packets (including packets inside a tunnel) see sect=
ion<br>
4.2 of RFC 4038 (even if informational). As other IESG reviewers, I wonder =
why<br>
::1/128 is not used?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; The mechanism of usin=
g an address from the loopback address range or IPv4-mapped addresses of th=
at range may be used to create entropy and monitor ECMP paths in an IP/MPLS=
 network (RFC 8029 and RFC 5884). This specification uses the same mechanis=
m for ECMP environment in the underlay network.</div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- Section 8 --<br>
The document specifies no IANA actions while the shepherd write-up talks ab=
out<br>
a IANA action.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; RtgDir review from Joel Hal=
pern and the extensive discussion on BFD WG list lead to this change. As a =
result, the request to allocate a MAC address to be used as the destination=
 MAC address in the inner Ethernet header was withdrawn and removed from th=
e specification.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- Section 9 --<br>
This section is only about IPv4 (TTL and RFC 1812). Please address IPv6 as =
well.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Added &quot;or Hop Limit&quot;. Plea=
se let me know if you agree. As for a IPv6 relevant reference equivalent to=
 RFC 1812, Adam Roach has noted that RFC 8504 does not have anything of the=
 kind. At the same time, the use of IPv4-mapped loopback address range has =
been mandated in RFC 8029 and RFC 5884.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
=3D=3D COMMENTS =3D=3D<br>
<br>
RFC 5881 (BFD) states that it applies to IPv4/IPv6 tunnels, may I infer tha=
t<br>
this document is only required to address the Ethernet encapsulation ? I.e.=
<br>
specifying the Ethernet MAC addresses?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; The=
re were several threads on encapsulation of BFD Control packet over VXLAN t=
hat, in my estimation, gathered 150+ messages. As you&#39;ve noticed from t=
he Shepherd write-up, the use of the dedicated MAC address was proposed, di=
scussed, and documented. But later the WG decided not to use the dedicated =
MAC as the destination MAC in the inner Ethernet frame. Similarly, we had a=
n extended discussion, including valuable input from implementors of BFD ov=
er VXLAN, on the selection of the destination IP address in the inner IP he=
ader. And another set of issues was discovered related to the selection of =
VXLAN VNI value when encapsulating=C2=A0 BFD control packet. I hope we&#39;=
ve analyzed all encapsulation issues and documented them sufficiently for t=
he benefit of future implementations.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- Section 3 --<br>
At first sight, I was surprized by having a BFD session per VXLAN VNI as it=
<br>
will create some scalability issue, but, I assume that this is to detect<br=
>
misconfiguration as well. If so, perhaps worth mentionnig the reasoning beh=
ind?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I agree, detecting misconfiguration m=
ight be one of the reasons to run BFD over some VXLAN VNIs. Would the follo=
wing text be acceptable:</div><div><br></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Using a BFD session to monitor a set of VXLAN VNIs between<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0the same pair of VTEPs might help to detect and localize problems=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0caused by misconfiguration.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
In &quot;the inner destination IP address SHOULD&quot; it is unclear whethe=
r it is in the<br>
all BFD packets, or only the request one or ... ?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&=
gt;&gt; This is applicable to all BFD control packets transmitted over a VX=
LAN tunnel. To clarify, I propose the following change:</div><div>OLD TEXT:=
</div><div>As per Section 4, the inner destination IP address SHOULD be set=
 to ...<br></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0For BFD Control pack=
ets encapsulated in VXLAN<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(Figure 2), the inner destination=
 IP address SHOULD be set to ...<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- Section 4 --<br>
While probably defined in RFC7348, should &quot;FCS&quot; be renamed as &qu=
ot;Outer Ethernet<br>
FCS&quot; for consistency with the &quot;Outer Ethernet Header&quot; in fig=
ure 2 ?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would s/FCS/Outer FCS/ be acceptab=
le?</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Why not using the Source MAC address as the Destination MAC address ? This<=
br>
would ensure that there is no conflict at the expense of &quot;forcing&quot=
; the<br>
transmission of the frame even if addressed to itself.<br></blockquote><div=
>GIM&gt;&gt; Based on the input from experts familar with existing implemen=
tations, WG decided not to require the use of the specific MAC address. I t=
hink that using the Source MAC as the Destination might be one of the optio=
ns an implementation will use.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex">
<br>
Please consider rewriting the section about TTL/Hop Limit as it is not easy=
 to<br>
parse/read.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Could you help me kindly and p=
oint to the problematic text?=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- Section 9 --<br>
It is unclear to me (see also Ben&#39;s comment) what is the &#39;attack ve=
ctor&#39; of<br>
sending packets with TTL=3D1 ?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Another inp=
ut from experts familiar with VXLAN and its deployments reflected in the fo=
llowing:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TTL or Hop Limit: MUS=
T be set to 1 to ensure that the BFD</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0packet is not routed within the Layer 3 underlay network.=C2=A0 This<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0addresses the scenario when the inner IP =
destination address is<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of VXLAN gatewa=
y and there is a router in underlay which<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0removes the VXLAN header, then it is possible to route the<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet as VXLAN =C2=A0gateway address is routabl=
e address.</div></div>

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From: Suresh Krishnan via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Subject: Suresh Krishnan's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with COMMENT)
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Suresh Krishnan has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Support Eric's DISCUSS on the IPv6 destination address and would like to see
this clarified and resolved.



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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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--_000_C77DB9D20DAF4A91B64CDC055C10519Fciscocom_--


From nobody Thu Dec 19 10:01:57 2019
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Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:06:10 -0500
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "bfd-chairs@ietf.org" <bfd-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Vyncke's_Discus?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?s?= on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Carlos,

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 03:22:28AM +0000, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote:
> > 2019/12/18 åˆå¾Œ4:41ã€Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>ã®ãƒ¡ãƒ¼ãƒ«:
> > But given that point, what precisely is the objection to the inner IP header
> > of the BFD for vxlan having a TTL of 1?
> 
> The intent would be to protect of potential attacks beyond the encapsulating endpoint (i.e., packet coming into the VTEP vs. sourced, off-link spoofing).

I'm sorry if I'm seeing oblivious, but I'm missing something.

The encapsulated packet's outer IP header, if single hop, could certainly
benefit from GTSM procedures.

But once you're more than one hop away, and you're vulnerable to general
attacks against packet insertion that the base vxlan PDUs have, how exactly
does setting the TTL one way or the other provide protection?

> > I think this is partially a matter of attack spaces varying depending on
> > whether we're targeting the management VNI vs. a tenant.  In the case of the
> > management VNI, we (should) have very strong control over what BFD traffic
> > is getting encapsulated.  
> > 
> > However, for tenant VNI mode, is the argument that depending on what the
> > other vxlan PDU parameters look like, tenant sourced BFD PDUs may be
> > indistinguishable from ones sourced by the management infrastructure?  And
> > if so, how would GTSM help us here?
> 
> Tenant sourced BFD PDUs would not use host loopback dest addresses. Scanning through S6 of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09, "MAY support the use of the Management VNIâ€.
> 
> And if there are already protections for not over-forwarding the BFD pak, the flip-question is â€œwhat does TTL = 1 bug you?â€
> 
> My assumption was that if the base BFD specs say â€œGSTM is usefulâ€, why not here?

Personally, I'm mostly ambivalent if it helps.  

If my observation above above about insertion attacks is valid, then using
GTSM for the inner IP packet isn't helpful for protecting against what GTSM
is intended for.  This leave us with roughly two modes:

- With GTSM, enforce the usual related BFD procedure.  If packets aren't
  "caught" by BFD, they have the potential to bounce around until they
  expire.  Either way, BFD should go Down and the max damage is a number of
  BFD packets eventually settling back to the 1/sec timer.
- Without GTSM, exactly the same, just with less distance.

So, presuming my observation is valid:
It doesn't help.
It doesn't hurt (much).
If we want to require it, go for it.

But it doesn't help your security story at all and using it perhaps confuses
people about it actually helping.  So, don't insist on it for security
reasons.

-- Jeff


From nobody Thu Dec 19 11:14:51 2019
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Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 14:19:10 -0500
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with COMMENT)
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Adam,

[re: directing packets to the loopback network]

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 08:37:03PM -0600, Adam Roach wrote:
> I'm a little unclear about the scope of leakage that is causing
> concern here. If you simply want to prevent the packets from making
> it to an end host, there are a lot of choices you can make that
> guarantee an address that has no ultimate destination.
> 
> If the concern is, instead, that the packet might be sent to one or
> more other routers when the tunnel is broken (even if it never
> reaches a host), then what you're doing here is unlikely to achieve
> your goals. As I attempted to highlight below, there is no reason to
> believe that an IPv6 router is going to treat ::ffff:127.0.0.0/104
> any differently than any other IPv4-mapped address. Unless you're in
> the default-free zone, It's either heading towards a default router
> or a v6/v4 gateway, and probably won't be dropped until it reaches
> an ingress to the v4 network.
> 
> On the other hand, if you *are* in the DFZ, my my understanding (and
> I'm not a routing person, so it's kind of a lay understanding) is
> that guaranteeing a packet drop in the default-free zone simply
> requires that the corresponding prefix isn't configured or
> announced. The IETF protocol IP blocks I mention below have that
> property.
> 
> In short, I don't think your solution addresses your implied threat
> model (regardless of which of the preceding two situations apply),
> and at the same time is an abuse of the semantic meaning of loopback
> addresses.
> 
> I'm feeling like I might not understand the problem being addressed
> by this approach. Perhaps if you explained the exact nature of the
> bad things that might happen when a tunnel breaks and some other
> inner address is used (with the assumption that such inner address
> would never correspond to a real host, and would never correspond to
> an advertised route, as would be true for my suggestions below), it
> would help.

Tersely:
In RFC 5884, BFD PDUs are carried in IP/UDP and are intended to be delivered
over a MPLS tunnel directly to the relevant endpoint.

The destination IP address is irrelevant - we're trying to talk to that
endpoint.

The mechanism used in 5884 was to choose something from the loopback network
as a place to put _something_ for IP that had the semantics of "the thing
I'm talking to".  Yes, it's a bit of a hack.  But it's a deployed hack.

And very similar, the ::FFFF:127.0.0.0/104 network was leveraged.

I believe you can draw the following conclusions:
- The tunnel decapsulation infrastructure can look for BFD encapsulated
  packets and ensure that BFD is what ends up dealing with such packets.
  This style of practice is fairly common in routers.
- In the absence of a decapsulation mechanism, an address still needs to be
  chosen.  But this now increases the provisioning overhead.  And even so,
  carrying of that provisioning information to the necessary session state for
  BFD is out of scope of the spec - we just care that there's an address.

If you don't like this practice, deployed as it is, please feel free to
suggest an alternative that accomplishes the same goals.  

And be mindful, there's running code here.

-- Jeff


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Jeff Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
CC: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "bfd-chairs@ietf.org" <bfd-chairs@ietf.org>
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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "bfd-chairs@ietf.org" <bfd-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Vyncke's_Discus?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?s?= on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Carlos,

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 08:12:56PM +0000, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote:
> > 2019/12/19 åˆå¾Œ1:06ã€Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>ã®ãƒ¡ãƒ¼ãƒ«:

Interesting.  You're a bit more multi-lingual that I knew. :-)

> > The encapsulated packet's outer IP header, if single hop, could certainly
> > benefit from GTSM procedures.
> > 
> > But once you're more than one hop away, and you're vulnerable to general
> > attacks against packet insertion that the base vxlan PDUs have, how exactly
> > does setting the TTL one way or the other provide protection?
> 
> Think of the VXLAN tunnel as a sigle-hop link. Yes, midpoint/in-transit packet insertion is an attack vector not covered by GTSM-ing the inner IP. However, traffic from outside the VXLAN (i.e., from outside the infrastructure) routed into the tunnel could not have a 255 TTL/HL.

Right.  That was the host attack from within tenant space that I was talking
about earlier.  But as you note here, that can also be an external insertion
attack as well.

> However, I am not ambivalent about comments being simply ignored. I would like the Editors and pen-holders of this document to actually respond to comments.

As Shepherd, you have my apologies then.  When I was reviewing the last set
of comments, I thought I had caught all flagged messages with your open
issues.  But as you may note, the threads went very long.

> I am not looking for a specific answer, but I am looking for a thoughtful, deliberate, explicit, and intentional decision, shared on the list. Thatâ€™s the role of Editors.
> 
> For example, see comment #2 in this note from June 2019 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/BL9Ob66Yxie4wX13yZJELbYPLJs 

Specifically covering this issue.

> 
> That comment, as well as others on that same note, were not ever responded to or acknowledged.
> 
> I reminded the editor that some comments were not being answered to: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/uzAtld-P7qB3B5z3NViFx83oaGA

That one did go to list traffic and I did take time to cover what I believed
was reasonable justification for not mentioning it.

> > If my observation above above about insertion attacks is valid, then using
> > GTSM for the inner IP packet isn't helpful for protecting against what GTSM
> > is intended for.  This leave us with roughly two modes:
> 
> Yes, it is valid, but it is not the only attack vector.

I'm unclear what you're flagging here.  Yes, we can attack all sorts of
things here, but we're discussing very specifically TTL and its use in
mitigating attacks viz. GTSM.

> > - With GTSM, enforce the usual related BFD procedure.  If packets aren't
> >  "caught" by BFD, they have the potential to bounce around until they
> >  expire.  Either way, BFD should go Down and the max damage is a number of
> >  BFD packets eventually settling back to the 1/sec timer.
> > - Without GTSM, exactly the same, just with less distance.
> > 
> > So, presuming my observation is valid:
> > It doesn't help.
> > It doesn't hurt (much).
> > If we want to require it, go for it.
> > 
> 
> I have the same question as before though.
> 
> To me the real vector of questions is: If the base GTSM spec requires it, why is that requirement relaxed? Where is it explained in the document?

See my prior ambivalence. :-)  It's reasonable modulo one of the two prior
implementations saying "this is a big deal!" to say "for our purposes, we
wish to use the security considerations of 5881".  As I noted for the IESG,
the considerations we have currently reflect 5884.  And while your
explanation for 5884's situation was helpful, I'm not entirely clear why the
vxlan encapsulation is so entirely different with regard to its impact vs.
MPLS and thus the 5884 scenario.

> > But it doesn't help your security story at all and using it perhaps confuses
> > people about it actually helping.  So, don't insist on it for security
> > reasons.
> 
> I would say â€œdonâ€™t insist on it for every possible security reasonâ€. The fact that there are some cases not covered does not imply that there are none.

If there's at least one well articulated one, that's sufficient.  What I'm
trying to get talked into is that there is such reason where this really
helps.

If that's protecting vs. traffic that originates in the tenant's networking
space that hits the tunnel and happens to be destined to an inner-IP address
that is the tenant assigned address space that is not in the loopback
network address space, that'll do.  But it also feeds into my related
commentary on some considerations are scenario specific.  In particular, if
we're using the 5884 loopback network trick, you can't originate such
traffic from the tenant network.  (Hopefully the IESG reviewers have noted
this.)

-- Jeff


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Jeff Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
CC: "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "bfd-chairs@ietf.org" <bfd-chairs@ietf.org>
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From nobody Thu Dec 19 17:46:07 2019
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Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 17:45:52 -0800
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-bfd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Message-ID: <20191220014552.GG35479@kduck.mit.edu>
References: <157653979360.24617.1864402887480503965.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20191218202448.GC6488@pfrc.org> <20191218220246.GK81833@kduck.mit.edu> <20191218221823.GG6488@pfrc.org>
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Hi Jeff,

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 05:18:24PM -0500, Jeffrey Haas wrote:
> Ben,
> 
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 02:02:46PM -0800, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 03:24:48PM -0500, Jeffrey Haas wrote:
> > > This is a clean summary of the considerations.  At least a portion of the WG
> > > seems to be comfortable with "test to the management VNI".  However, another
> > > (smaller, I believe) portion were wanting to test one layer further in.
> > 
> > It is reassuring that I at least managed to summarize the situation
> > tolerably.  Is it fair to say that testing "one layer further in" is a
> > superset of what "test to the managemenet VNI" can do?
> 
> Fundamentally, this is all BFD.  The issue is almost always considerations
> related to encapsulation.
> 
> The meta concern here is that if you test to the management VNI, the
> operator has a lot of control over things that are clean from a security
> perspective.
> 
> The minute you test one layer deeper, it's still the same thing... but you
> now have a lot of sharp edges you have to worry about.
> 
> In all of these situations, the main consideration from a security
> perspective and an encapsulation perspective is "don't step on the toes of
> the user".  But that said, vxlan environments are provided to contain
> tenants, have their own provisioning ecosystems, and security considerations
> in how they are provisioned and operated.  As long as the security and
> operational considerations are understood by the operator, they can decide
> whether "testing one layer further in" gives them good benefit vs. the
> additional security considerations.
> 
> And that said, two fundamental portions of BFD operations and security still
> apply here:
> - Discriminators need to be known to mess with existing sessions.  This
>   means the main consideration for someone not in the tenant environment is
>   privacy.  Such privacy is an overall consideration for vxlan environments.
> - Authentication mechanisms in BFD may still be deployed which further
>   reduce the attack space.
> 
> Basically, if your vxlan environment is appropriately operated and secured,
> the main attacker of this session is the tenant itself.  And they have all
> sorts of bad things they can do to knock down their own reachability from
> one VTEP to another.  I.e. it's a stupid attack. :-)

I think in this message you've managed to get a pithy form of both main
flavors of my concern: "don't step on the toes of the user" and "[the
tenant has] all sorts of bad things they can do to knock down their own
reachability" :)

Less pithily, to keep the isolation between tenant and infrastructure, the
tenant can't send stuff that gets interpreted by the infrastructure [as
directed at the infrastructure], and the infrastructure can't intercept and
parse as directed at itself tenant traffic.  As you note, the former is
likely not a terribly interesting attack, as the scope ought to be limited
to just knocking out the tenant's own connection.  So I'm more concerned
about the latter case -- making sure the infrastructure doesn't eat up
something the tenant wanted to send over the tunnel.  That includes all
sorts of weird things tenants might try to do, that might not even be fully
in spec (depending on what the contract between tenant and provider looks
like, I suppose).  There's several technologies involved here that I don't
have a great handle on, so I'm hoping to see an explanation of how that's
prevented, in a simple enough fashion for my tiny brain to take in.

-Ben


From nobody Thu Dec 19 18:00:57 2019
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Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 18:00:44 -0800
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: rtg-bfd@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>,  bfd-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 02:02:46PM -0800, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> I think I can only touch on a few points before telechat-time rolls around,
> and will finish off afterwards.

as promised...

> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 03:24:48PM -0500, Jeffrey Haas wrote:
> > Benjamin,
> > 
> > On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 03:43:13PM -0800, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote:
> > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > DISCUSS:
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > 
> > > I have a few points that I think merit IESG discussion.
> > > 
> > > (1) I see that several directorate reviewers expressed unease at the
> > > destination (IP and) MAC address assignment procedure for the inner
> > > VXLAN headers, and appreciate that there was extensive on-list
> > > discussion (more than I could follow).  That said, I failed to find a
> > > clear statement of why the current text is believed to be safe, and in
> > > fact my reading of the current text is that the described procedure is
> > > *not* safe.  Pointers to key parts of the WG discusison would be more
> > > than welcome!
> > 
> > One high level point that likely didn't survive the rather verbose comment
> > chain is there are two implementations of this draft.  Some of the
> > considerations covered in the guidance here is "please don't break shipping
> > code".
> > 
> > While this is IETF, and shipping code isn't always a blocking point to
> > document changes, I'd suggest that as a consideration.
> 
> It did indeed not survive (at least my pass through) the comment chain, so
> thank you for calling it out.  It is indeed a consideration, and I expect
> some actual discussion on the call tomorrow.
> 
> > > To take something of a high-level view of my concerns, if we think of
> > > the VXLAN as being a tunnel between VTEPs that carry encapsulated tenant
> > > traffic, then what we're trying to do is roughly like BFD between VTEPs,
> > > but we want to get fault-detection over as broad a coverage as we can
> > > (the "outermost part of the tunnel"), so we want to have the option of
> > > per-VNI BFD instead of just endpoint-to-endpoint (VTEP-to-VTEP).
> > 
> > You've summarized this clearly.  Joel Halpern, in particular, raised this
> > point multiple times.  Effectively, "what are we testing?"  And the response
> > not clearly converging on exactly one of the two possibilities.
> > 
> > As is noted in the various IESG discussion, each of the two test points
> > raise slightly different considerations.
> > 
> > > However, we end up having to do this by trying to insert a thin filter
> > > into the tenant's address space (i.e., the inner VXLAN header) and pick
> > > out the specific stream of BFD traffic that we're introducing.  This is,
> > > in some sense, a namespace grab in what is conceptually the tenant's
> > > namespace, and we have to be careful that what we do is either
> > > guaranteed to not impact the tenant or well-documented and
> > > compartmentalized (akin to the "well-known URIs").
> > 
> > Possibly, and it's certainly a consideration.  However, I think I'm less
> > convinced of it being quite the level of violation that seems to be
> > reflected in the rest of the IESG comments in the various other threads.
> > I'll respond to that detail a bit below.
> > 
> > > I've made comments at several places in the document that are more
> > > directly tied to specific pieces of text, but in general, if we assume
> > > that the tenant can add/remove new addresses at will within their VXLAN
> > > abstration, then any attempt to preconfigure by mutual agreement the BFD
> > > addresses to use at the VTEPs or to use the VTEP's normal (outer)
> > > address as the sentinel value seems subject to the tenant coming in and
> > > subsequently trying to use that address, leading to (some of) the
> > > tenant's traffic getting silently filtered and interpreted by the VTEP.
> > > If we were using domain names as identifiers, we could allocate
> > > something under .arpa or similar, but I think our options are more
> > > limited when numerical addresses are used.
> > > 
> > > The option suggested by the rtg-dir reviewer of always using the
> > > management VNI does not suffer from this namespacing issue, though I
> > > recognize that it does reduce the scope over which fault-detection is
> > > available, for the cases when different VNIs' traffic are routed or
> > > handled differently.
> > 
> > This is a clean summary of the considerations.  At least a portion of the WG
> > seems to be comfortable with "test to the management VNI".  However, another
> > (smaller, I believe) portion were wanting to test one layer further in.
> 
> It is reassuring that I at least managed to summarize the situation
> tolerably.  Is it fair to say that testing "one layer further in" is a
> superset of what "test to the managemenet VNI" can do?
> 
> > > (2) Section 6 says:
> > > 
> > >                                                          The selection
> > >    of the VNI number of the Management VNI MUST be controlled through
> > >    management plane.  An implementation MAY use VNI number 1 as the
> > >    default value for the Management VNI.  All VXLAN packets received on
> > >    the Management VNI MUST be processed locally and MUST NOT be
> > >    forwarded to a tenant.
> > > 
> > > It seems like the management VNI concept is something that would apply
> > > to the entire VXLAN deployment and not just to the BFD-using portions;
> > > is this already defined somewhere (in which case we should reference
> > > it), or is it new with this document?  In the latter case wouldn't it be
> > > an update to the core VXLAN spec?  (I note that there are some
> > > procedural hoops to jump through for an IETF-stream document to update
> > > an ISE-stream document...)
> > 
> > The relevant portion of the archive will have the Subject: line text
> > including:
> > "Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP"
> > 
> > A portion of the discussion relating to the magic number of the management
> > VNI suggested '1', instead of '0'.
> > 
> > At least some implementations already use '0':
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/6WfSATmfoPv4AD6RmD-Xb7zz4CE
> > 
> > The argument to not use '0' starts roughly here:
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-bfd/z8E_a5k_r4pLLs5YfNsL_Xm9_Us
> > 
> > You're correct, IMO, that there's no standard practice and the above seems
> > to support this.  I believe this leaves the document authors in the position
> > of being requested to make a recommendation for the default value of this
> > field and knowing that the default would be invalid on some platforms.
> > 
> > The alternative is requiring implementations to always configure this value.
> > 
> > I suggest the IESG determine whether it wants a default value here or not.
> > If not, the text should be adjusted to require configuration.  If yes, the
> > IESG should consider whether the nvo3 group should produce some document
> > that covers current operational practices.
> 
> That does sound like something we should try to talk about on the telechat
> as well; thanks for raising it so clearly.

We did get to talk about it briefly, though without a clear conclusion.
Since there's not much of a clear preexisting description of the management
VNI that we can cite, I'm leaning towards just noting that (most?)
implementations offer a concept of "management VNI", that the management
VNI can be useful for giving confidence that BFD traffic does not interfere
with tenant traffic, and the details of how to use the management VNI are
implementation-specific.  But it would not be hard to convince me that
there is a better path to take!

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > COMMENT:
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >    0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 range for IPv6).  There could be a firewall
> > >    configured on VTEP to block loopback addresses if set as the
> > >    destination IP in the inner IP header.  It is RECOMMENDED to allow
> > >    addresses from the loopback range through a firewall only if it is
> > >    used as the destination IP address in the inner IP header, and the
> > >    destination UDP port is set to 3784 [RFC5881].
> > > 
> > > I think we should reword this to make it clear that the default behavior
> > > is still "block all incoming traffic with loopback destination" and that
> > > the exception is tightly scoped to the encapsulated VXLAN traffic
> > > discussed in this document and the specific destination port *and when
> > > BFD has been configured for the VTEP*.  I note that well-known ports are
> > > not reserved ports, and we have no guarangee that only a BFD
> > > implementation would be listening on port 3784.
> > 
> > I don't think this consideration is necessarily critical.
> 
> I think I'm in agreement about its criticality, and will see if I can come
> up with some actual text ... later.

I think the sense I have is something like:

% It is common to have a firewall configured on the VTEP (akin to general
% common practice for all machines) to drop incoming traffic where the
% inner IP header contains a loopback address as the destination address.
% In general, such traffic would be the result of misconfiguration, and
% such a policy improves network safety.  However, the procedures specified
% in this document can result in such traffic, so it is RECOMMENDED to only
% allow incoming traffic with loopback-range inner destination IP address
% when the destination UDP port is set to 3784 and BFD has been configured
% on the VTEP.

But if that's not correct, no need to spend more time on it.

> > BFD implementations residing in the related instance communicating to other
> > instances across the vxlan environment would be using RFC 5881 or RFC 5883
> > style BFD.  Since this isn't a tunneled BFD, the IP endpoints of the BFD
> > control traffic will be unicast addresses rather than the reserved
> > "loopback" ranges; i.e. 127/8 ::FFFF:127.0.0.0/104.  In order for those
> > ranges to be problematic, it'd be necessary for the client to be able to
> > manually encapsulate a vxlan packet - a security issue of its own.
> > 
> > A related point in this discussion is "we're hijacking an address managed by
> > the local tenant".  While true, it's in the above ranges and thus somewhat
> > under the auspice of the host OS to assert control.  I'm aware of some
> > unusual applications that make use of configured addresses in those ranges
> > for on-box communications, but they're also on the unusual end of things.
> > 
> > What sort of text would you want to cover the case that when BFD is run
> > up-to-the-tenant mode in this circumstance that an address MUST be reserved
> > for the BFD over vxlan application and that this address SHALL NOT be
> > available to the tenant for its own use?

I'd like to hold off on proposing text until some of the other threads come
to a conclusion; what mechanism we want to use (and thus write about) may
depend on what scenarios we're trying to prevent.

> > >    VXLAN packet.  The choice of Destination MAC and Destination IP
> > >    addresses for the inner Ethernet frame MUST ensure that the BFD
> > >    Control packet is not forwarded to a tenant but is processed locally
> > >    at the remote VTEP.  [...]
> > > 
> > > This has to be 100% reliable, and I think we need to provide some
> > > example mechanism that has that property even if we don't mandate that
> > > it be the only allowed mechanism.
> > 
> > The consideration here, I believe, is that there's currently too much
> > latitude by implementations as to what MAC addresses they use here.
> > Restrict one case, you may break some implementation.
> > 
> > The missing element is how a pair of implementations of BFD for vxlan
> > discover the necessary information?  As far as BFD is concerned, "tell me!"
> > This seems like work that belongs in nvo3.

That seems likely.
I suspect that what we'll end up with here is something akin to "here's a
procedure you can use that will work, but if you want to use some other
procedure that works, we aren't stopping you".

> > >          Destination MAC: This MUST NOT be of one of tenant's MAC
> > >          addresses.  The destination MAC address MAY be the address
> > > 
> > > But the tenant can start using new MAC addresses at any time!  How is
> > > BFD-over-VXLAN going to dynamically detect and avoid that?
> > 
> > See above.  Either it's coordinated with the ability to prevent the tenant
> > from using it or the underlying vxlan environment needs to provide some
> > mechanism to discover what's been provisioned.
> > 
> > >          associated with the destination VTEP.  The MAC address MAY be
> > >          configured, or it MAY be learned via a control plane protocol.
> > >          The details of how the MAC address is obtained are outside the
> > >          scope of this document.
> > > 
> > > This all talks about the MAC address being relatively static
> > > configuration, but per above, I don't think that's safe in the face of a
> > > MUST-level requirement to avoid conflicting with tenant MAC addresses.
> > 
> > But is it BFD's responsibility to figure this out?  This is what the
> > document is suggesting - a higher level with access to the implementation
> > specifics should be supplying the BFD provisioning information.  Or manual
> > provisioning in the absence thereof.

I don't really disagree; I'm more trying to get a sense of which parts are
dynamic and which parts (relatively) static -- my current sense is that
everything in the tenant space can be very dynamic, but that the BFD
provisioning is fairly static.  That would lead to something of an
impedance mismatch if the dynamic stuff the tenant is doing could generate
a conflict with the static configuration -- it would be a sign that we're
doing something at the wrong level.  But, as implied earlier, I'm still
trying to wrap my head around the system as a whole.

Thanks,

Ben


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From nobody Sun Dec 22 11:01:04 2019
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Subject: I-D Action: draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand-06.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bidirectional Forwarding Detection WG of the IETF.

        Title           : BFD in Demand Mode over Point-to-Point MPLS LSP
        Author          : Greg Mirsky
	Filename        : draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand-06.txt
	Pages           : 5
	Date            : 2019-12-22

Abstract:
   This document describes procedures for using Bidirectional Forwarding
   Detection (BFD) in Demand mode to detect data plane failures in
   Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) point-to-point Label Switched
   Paths.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand-06
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-mirsky-bfd-mpls-demand-06


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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--0000000000009d9f36059ab12307
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Hello,
     Please see my inline comments tagged [SPK].

On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 1:35 PM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder via Datat=
racker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Reviewer: J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder
> Review result: Has Nits
>
> I have only a limited understanding of VXLAN and BFD technology.
> Hence, some of my question may look odd to the insiders.
>
> - Never heard of this IPv6 loopback address space before. Is it OK to
>   allocate and use it this way?
>

[SPK] We have received suggestions from other IESG review we coming up with
text which will address this.

- Why is echo BFD outside the scope of this document? Can I just turn
>   on echo mode or will extra specifications be needed?
>

[SPK] Echo BFD to work we need destination IP address to be set to sending
VTEP address so that BFD packet is looped back when VTEP decapsulate VXLAN
header. Currently VTEP IP address may be used by tenant and hence this
needs more discussion and may need extension document. We have kept the
scope limited to async BFD for this document.


> - Nits:
>
>   OLD
>
>     Ability to monitor path continuity
>
>   NEW
>
>     The ability to monitor path continuity
>
>   OLD
>
>     BFD packet MUST be encapsulated
>
>   NEW
>
>     BFD packets MUST be encapsulated
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hello,<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please see=
 my inline=C2=A0comments tagged [SPK].</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 1:35 PM=
 J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:no=
reply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Reviewer: J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lde=
r<br>
Review result: Has Nits<br>
<br>
I have only a limited understanding of VXLAN and BFD technology.<br>
Hence, some of my question may look odd to the insiders.<br>
<br>
- Never heard of this IPv6 loopback address space before. Is it OK to<br>
=C2=A0 allocate and use it this way?<br></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>=
[SPK] We have received=C2=A0suggestions from other IESG review we coming up=
 with text which will address this.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
- Why is echo BFD outside the scope of this document? Can I just turn<br>
=C2=A0 on echo mode or will extra specifications be needed?<br></blockquote=
><div>=C2=A0</div><div>[SPK] Echo BFD to work we need destination IP addres=
s to be set to sending VTEP address so that BFD packet is looped back when =
VTEP decapsulate VXLAN header. Currently VTEP IP address may be used by ten=
ant and hence this needs more discussion and may need extension document. W=
e have kept the scope limited to async BFD for this document.=C2=A0</div><d=
iv><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
- Nits:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 OLD<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ability to monitor path continuity<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 NEW<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The ability to monitor path continuity<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 OLD<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFD packet MUST be encapsulated<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 NEW<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFD packets MUST be encapsulated<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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