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From: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
To: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis.all@ietf.org>
CC: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "lisp@ietf.org" <lisp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis-13
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/TkracBIkIxmvCQwZdNl48STIQr4>
Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis-13
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From: Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis-13
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> Hi there
> =20
> I have done a routing directorate review of this draft.
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis/?include_text=3D=
1
> =20
> The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related =
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and =
sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide =
assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing =
Directorate, please see =
=E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
> =20
> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, =
it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF =
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through =
discussion or by updating the draft.
> =20
> Document: draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis-13=20
> Reviewer: Jon Hardwick=20
> Review Date: 7 Sep 2018=20
> IETF LC End Date: 31 Aug 2018=20
> Intended Status: Proposed Standard

Thanks for your comments Jon.

> Comments
> This was my first foray into LISP, so I also read =
draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6830bis and draft-ietf-lisp-introduction as ramp-up.  =
I found all three documents to be very readable and useful.

That is good to hear. Kudos to the working group for this.

> I think this document is ready to be published.  I noted a few minor =
comments and questions as I read through it, below.
> =20
> sec3: Map-Register contains =E2=80=9Cone or more RLOCs to reach =
ETR(s)=E2=80=9D.  How do you deregister all RLOCs for an EID?

You set the Record TTL in the EID-record to 0. It is stated here:



> sec5: (Diagrams) It seems a bit redundant to specify the IPv4/6 and =
UDP header formats here.  Just refer to the RFCs.

We want to be crystal clear and don=E2=80=99t want readers to have to =
shuffle documents. Those header formats are pretty etched in stone, so =
we don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99ll have a document maintenance problem =
keeping it up to date.

> sec5: =E2=80=9CWhen a UDP Map-Reply Map-Notify=E2=80=9D  <- insert =
comma

Fixed.

> sec5.1: What about code point 7?  Not assigned?  Reserved?

It is assigned to a non-working group draft. NAT-traversal has not gone =
through working group process so far.

> sec6.1: =E2=80=9Cfrom those sites to which=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9Ct=
o those sites to which=E2=80=9D

Fixed.

> sec6.1: =E2=80=9Cfor the last minute=E2=80=9D is arbitrary and should =
be left to the implementation / deployment to decide IMO.

Its kind of an architecture constant.

> sec7.1: Have you considered using multi-hop BFD instead of RLOC =
probing?

Yes. But there are too many LISP features we need that would not be =
appropriate in a more generalized BFD mechanism. We use RLOC-probing, =
not only for reachability testing, but to convey new RLOC changes, =
LISP-crypto keys, as well as differnet RLOC types.

> Best regards
> Jon

I will publish a new version of rfc6830bis and rfc6833bis on Monday with =
accumilated changes from various comments.

Thanks again,
Dino



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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;"><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi =
there<br class=3D""></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"">I have done a routing directorate review =
of this draft.<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis/?inclu=
de_text=3D1" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis/?in=
clude_text=3D1</a><br class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"">The Routing =
Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as =
they pass through IETF last call and IESG&nbsp;review, and sometimes on =
special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to =
the Routing ADs. For more&nbsp;information about the Routing =
Directorate, please see =
=E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"">Although these comments are primarily =
for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could =
consider them along&nbsp;with any other IETF Last Call comments that you =
receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating =
the&nbsp;draft.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"">Document: =
draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis-13&nbsp;<br class=3D"">Reviewer: Jon =
Hardwick&nbsp;<br class=3D"">Review Date: 7 Sep 2018&nbsp;<br =
class=3D"">IETF LC End Date: 31 Aug 2018&nbsp;<br class=3D"">Intended =
Status: Proposed Standard<br class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>Thanks for your comments Jon.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Comments<br =
class=3D"">This was my first foray into LISP, so I also read =
draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6830bis and draft-ietf-lisp-introduction as ramp-up. =
&nbsp;I found&nbsp;all three documents to be very readable and =
useful.</blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>That is good to =
hear. Kudos to the working group for this.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I think this document is =
ready to be published. &nbsp;I noted a few minor comments and questions =
as I read through it, below.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"">sec3: =
Map-Register contains =E2=80=9Cone or more RLOCs to reach ETR(s)=E2=80=9D.=
 &nbsp;How do you deregister all RLOCs for an EID?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>You set the =
Record TTL in the EID-record to 0. It is stated here:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><img apple-inline=3D"yes" =
id=3D"F4812C22-8069-4B8D-8384-1C00DD3F89D6" width=3D"534" height=3D"72" =
src=3D"cid:C06592FC-F18E-4ED6-8265-DC86EC131775" class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">sec5: =
(Diagrams) It seems a bit redundant to specify the IPv4/6 and UDP header =
formats here. &nbsp;Just refer to the RFCs.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>We want to =
be crystal clear and don=E2=80=99t want readers to have to shuffle =
documents. Those header formats are pretty etched in stone, so we =
don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99ll have a document maintenance problem =
keeping it up to date.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">sec5: =E2=80=9CWhen a UDP Map-Reply =
Map-Notify=E2=80=9D &nbsp;&lt;- insert comma<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>Fixed.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">sec5.1: What about code point 7? &nbsp;Not =
assigned? &nbsp;Reserved?<br class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>It is assigned to a non-working group draft. =
NAT-traversal has not gone through working group process so =
far.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">sec6.1: =E2=80=9Cfrom those sites to which=E2=80=9D should be =
=E2=80=9Cto those sites to which=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Fixed.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">sec6.1: =E2=80=9Cfor the =
last minute=E2=80=9D is arbitrary and should be left to the =
implementation / deployment to decide IMO.<br class=3D""></blockquote><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Its kind of an architecture =
constant.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">sec7.1: Have you considered using multi-hop BFD instead of =
RLOC probing?<br class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>Yes. But there are too many LISP features we need that =
would not be appropriate in a more generalized BFD mechanism. We use =
RLOC-probing, not only for reachability testing, but to convey new RLOC =
changes, LISP-crypto keys, as well as differnet RLOC types.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Best =
regards<br class=3D"">Jon<br class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>I will publish a new version of rfc6830bis and =
rfc6833bis on Monday with accumilated changes from various =
comments.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks=
 again,</div><div class=3D"">Dino</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review of draft-ietf-softwire-mesh-multicast-22.txt
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From nobody Mon Sep 10 08:28:52 2018
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From: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/3NGTxFAwA52oVK6hjDVmPkZbwIw>
Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
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Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.
The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and
sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide
assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing
Directorate, please see
​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
Reviewer: Julien Meuric (with some inputs from Bruno Decraene)
Review Date: 2018-09-07
IETF LC End Date: 2018-09-12
Intended Status: ST

*Summary:*
I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be
resolved before publication.

*Comments:"
The document is well focused on a solution to a clearly scoped problem.
The defined encodings are simple and clear. All the same, there are a
few loose wordings, implicit assumptions or fuzzy zones which require
clarification before publication.

*Minor issues:*

- The abstract uses the acronym "SID", however:
    * It should be expanded at first use,
    * It should be defined, e.g. by adding a (normative) reference to
RFC 8402 (at least in the introduction),
    * The SR context is missing and should be explicitly mentioned
(adding a phrase such as "in a Segment Routing-enabled network" would be
enough).

- OLD
   Path Computation Element Protocol (PCEP) SR extensions draft
   [I-D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] signals MSD in SR Path Computation
   Element (PCE) Capability TLV and METRIC Object.
  NEW
   The Path Computation Element communication Protocol (PCEP) SR
   extension document [I-D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] defines how to
   signal MSD using the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY sub-TLV (per node) and
   the METRIC object (per request).

- The introduction says that the solution to complement BGP-LS lies in
IS-IS (the OSPF draft claiming the counterpart on its side). This is a
bit rough, the sentence 2 paragraph below already does the necessary
scoping job: "This document defines an extension to <your favorite IGP
here>". I suggest to temper the early sentence by rephrasing the
beginning of page 3 into: "MSD capabilities should be advertised by
every router in the network involved in the IGP."

- The wording of the following sentence is not clear: "Note that in a
non-SR MPLS network, label depth is what is defined by the MSD
advertisements." Is it intended to say: "Note that MSD advertisements
are applicable beyond SR-enabled networks and may refer to label depth
in MPLS networks."?

- "SID" may deserve to join the terminology section.

- s/SIDs a node or a link on a node can support./SIDs supported by a
node or a link on a node./

- The same ASCII art is used for the 2 figures (sections 2 and 3). It
would be nice to specialize each one a little bit by explicitly adding
their respective codepoint in the type field (23 and 15).

- Section 3 says "any other value represents that of the link when used
as an outgoing link." Is it not excessive to be that prescriptive about
outgoing vs. incoming? E.g., if an implementation was to advertise ERLD
as a link MSD, that would rather refer to a capability of the
incominglink. This specification could be left to each MSD-Type definition.

- In section 4: s/the Link MSD MUST take preference/the Link MSD MUST
take precedence/

- In section 5, BMI-MSD is defined as "the total number of MPLS  labels
which can be imposed" (which is OK when the incoming packet is
unlabled). When the incoming packet is labeled (e.g. use of segment
routing binding SID), if the incoming label is to be "replaced" by N
outgoing labels, what processing model is assumed when advertising the MSD:
 * one swap and one imposition of N-1 labels?
 * one pop and one imposition of N labels?

- For the BMI-MSD use case, the draft seems to clearly target a value
attached to the outgoing link. However, this capability on a router is
highly hardware-dependent: some implementations may push a stack on the
egress linecard while some may perform it on the ingress linecard. The
I-D seems to make some implicit hardware assumption and the current link
MSD advertisement is not suited to describe these possible combinations
of hardware implementations. This needs to be addressed somehow.

- Section 7 says that "an MSD that is incorrect, may result in [...]
instantiation of a path that can't be supported". It would be more
accurate to mention "instantiation attempt", as a proper state control
mechanism is expected to deny unsupported instantiation (e.g. PCEP
errors for "invalid objects" include "Unsupported number of SR-ERO
subobjects").

*Nits:*
- s/(IS-IS) Router to advertise/(IS-IS) router to advertise/
- s/link a given SR path/each node/link of a given SR path/
- s/path doesn't exceed/path does not exceed/
- s/and associated attributes and capabilities/as well as associated
attributes and capabilities/
- s/it is expected, that/it is expected that/
---
- s/an IANA managed registry/an IANA-managed registry/
- s/defined by this document/defined by this document:/
- s/path that can't be/path that cannot be/
---

Regards,

Julien


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From: Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net>
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Cc: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis.all@ietf.org>,  "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "lisp@ietf.org" <lisp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis-13
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Hi Dino,

a quick point on the control message type 7.

> On 7 Sep 2018, at 20:41, Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>> sec5.1: What about code point 7?  Not assigned?  Reserved?
>=20
> It is assigned to a non-working group draft. NAT-traversal has not =
gone through working group process so far.

This point has been raised as well by Alvaro.

My take is that officially type 7 is NOT assigned and the document =
should state so.
Eventually, NAT-traversal will be published and type 7 will be =
officially assigned.=20
But until then, documents should mark it as unassigned.

Ciao

L.


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I will update the spec to say type 7 is not assigned.

Dino

> On Sep 11, 2018, at 2:23 AM, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Dino,
>=20
> a quick point on the control message type 7.
>=20
>> On 7 Sep 2018, at 20:41, Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> sec5.1: What about code point 7?  Not assigned?  Reserved?
>>=20
>> It is assigned to a non-working group draft. NAT-traversal has not =
gone through working group process so far.
>=20
> This point has been raised as well by Alvaro.
>=20
> My take is that officially type 7 is NOT assigned and the document =
should state so.
> Eventually, NAT-traversal will be published and type 7 will be =
officially assigned.=20
> But until then, documents should mark it as unassigned.
>=20
> Ciao
>=20
> L.
>=20


From nobody Wed Sep 12 20:26:55 2018
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From: Carlos Pignataro <cpignata@cisco.com>
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Reviewer: Carlos Pignataro
Review result: Has Nits

This is a very well written and detailed document.

I have only one concern, which I believe should be addressed before moving this
document forward:

I found the rational and specific details on what this document "Updates" from
three previous RFCs to be lacking, and confusing.

I recommend an "Updates from RFC XYZ" section in which there is a textual
explanation and ideally Old/New specifics on how this document updates previous
RFCs. At least, something more inline with current thinking as per
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg109106.html

Thanks,

Carlos Pignataro.


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/yKHsRQe_hJlC44o7XFlRoxQ_r3M>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-expl-track-09
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On 9/12/2018 11:26 PM, Carlos Pignataro wrote:
> I found the rational and specific details on what this document "Updates" from
> three previous RFCs to be lacking, and confusing.

Carlos,

Thanks for your review.

I don't want to get caught up in the neverending discussion of exactly 
what constitutes an "Update".  This is being discussed right now on the 
IETF list, and it's quite clear that there is no consensus.  As usual, 
every possible opinion is dogmatically held by someone ;-)

The introduction of the expl-track draft explicitly points out a number 
of situations that are not adequately addressed in the prior RFCs, and 
for which the prior RFCs do not provide clear guidance. This is a 
potential source of interoperability problems.

The introduction also indicates a number of new features that are added 
by the draft.

Anyone implementing RFCs 6514, 6625, and/or 7524 will certainly be 
well-advised to read this draft in order to (a) make sure that they 
properly handle the situations that are not explicitly addressed by the 
prior RFCs, and (b) to make sure that they are aware of the new features 
so they can make an informed decision of whether to implement them.

I think this justifies the "Updates" status.

> I recommend an "Updates from RFC XYZ" section in which there is a textual
> explanation and ideally Old/New specifics on how this document updates previous
> RFCs.

I think the introduction covers this in the appropriate level of detail; 
I really don't know what could be added.

Eric


From nobody Thu Sep 13 10:11:12 2018
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>
CC: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-expl-track.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-expl-track.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-expl-track-09
Thread-Index: AQHUS2kW/WRfGYHCyUaiVFFqHfByRqTutbKA
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 17:10:55 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-expl-track-09
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------=_NextPart_5B9D51C2_08F966A0_067738A2--




From nobody Wed Sep 19 10:47:41 2018
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From: Ben Niven-Jenkins <ben@niven-jenkins.co.uk>
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Subject: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir telechat review of draft-ietf-taps-minset-10
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Reviewer: Ben Niven-Jenkins
Review result: Has Issues

 Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The
Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as
they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special
request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs.
For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would
be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call
comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by
updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-taps-minset-10.txt
Reviewer: Ben Niven-Jenkins
Review Date: 19 September 2018
Intended Status: Informational

Summary: I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be
resolved before publication.

Comments:

The document contains lots of interesting information that is well articulated
and very readable, however it is not clear who the intended audience for the
document is and what that audience is expected to do with the information in
the document.

Major Issues: No major issues found.

Minor Issues:

It is not clear to me what the purpose of the document is, who the document is
aimed at and what the document's relationship is to other TAPS document.

For example, if I am an implementer of a transport system, should I read this
document because it will aid my implementation, or should I read it if I am
interested in why I am expected to implement certain things, etc?

I think an additional paragraph should be added to the introduction to clarify
the above along the lines of "This document describes ..." and/or "This
document is intended to be read by ..."

Ben


From nobody Wed Sep 19 16:46:38 2018
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From: Michael McBride <Michael.McBride@huawei.com>
To: "draft-ietf-babel-hmac@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-babel-hmac@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-babel-hmac
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--_000_8CCB28152EA2E14A96BBEDC15823481A1CD5B548sjceml521mbschi_
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I have been selected to do a routing directorate "early" review of draft-ie=
tf-babel-hmac.

Document: draft-ietf-babel-hmac-00
Reviewer: Mike McBride
Review Date: 19-09-2018

Intended Status: Standards Track

Comments:

I only found a few nits. Great job with the draft, especially being a 00. T=
he nits that should be considered:


1.      Add a Terminology section to include HMAC, Babel, PC, etc

2.      1.1 Applicability Section: "The protocol defined in this document a=
ssumes that all interfaces on a given link are equally trusted and share a =
small set of symmetric keys (usually just one, two during key rotation)." C=
onsider changing it to: "...(Typically one key. Two keys during a key rotat=
ion)." Otherwise it can read as "just one or two during key rotation".

3.      4.2 Packet Transmission Section: "A Babel node may delay actually s=
ending TLVs by a small amount...". Consider giving an example of a small am=
ount.

Sound reasonable?

mike

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have been selected to do a routing directorate &#8=
220;early&#8221; review of draft-ietf-babel-hmac.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Document: draft-ietf-babel-hmac-00<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Reviewer: Mike McBride<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Review Date: 19-09-2018<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Intended Status: Standards Track<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comments:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I only found a few nits. Great job with the draft, e=
specially being a 00. The nits that should be considered:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in;text-indent:-.25in=
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<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Add a Terminology section to include HMAC, Babel, P=
C, etc<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in;text-indent:-.25in=
;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>1.1 Applicability Section: &#8220;The protocol defi=
ned in this document assumes that all interfaces on a given link are equall=
y trusted and share a small set of symmetric keys (usually just one, two du=
ring key rotation).&#8221; Consider changing
 it to: &#8220;&#8230;(Typically one key. Two keys during a key rotation).&=
#8221; Otherwise it can read as &#8220;just one or two during key rotation&=
#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in;text-indent:-.25in=
;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>4.2 Packet Transmission Section: &#8220;A Babel nod=
e may delay actually sending TLVs by a small amount&#8230;&#8221;. Consider=
 giving an example of a small amount.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sound reasonable? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">mike<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_8CCB28152EA2E14A96BBEDC15823481A1CD5B548sjceml521mbschi_--


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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:17:02 -0400
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To: Michael McBride <Michael.McBride@huawei.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-babel-hmac@ietf.org, rtg-dir@ietf.org,  babel-chairs <babel-chairs@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/oXcsY-V4aeNI5YdZs8G7Osx-JAY>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-babel-hmac
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Hi Mike,

Thanks for the review. OK if I forward to the babel WG mailing list?

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 1424 Pro Shop Court, Davenport, FL 33896 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com


On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 7:46 PM Michael McBride <Michael.McBride@huawei.com=
>
wrote:

> I have been selected to do a routing directorate =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D =
review of
> draft-ietf-babel-hmac.
>
>
>
> Document: draft-ietf-babel-hmac-00
>
> Reviewer: Mike McBride
>
> Review Date: 19-09-2018
>
>
>
> Intended Status: Standards Track
>
>
>
> Comments:
>
>
>
> I only found a few nits. Great job with the draft, especially being a 00.
> The nits that should be considered:
>
>
>
> 1.      Add a Terminology section to include HMAC, Babel, PC, etc
>
> 2.      1.1 Applicability Section: =E2=80=9CThe protocol defined in this =
document
> assumes that all interfaces on a given link are equally trusted and share=
 a
> small set of symmetric keys (usually just one, two during key rotation).=
=E2=80=9D
> Consider changing it to: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6(Typically one key. Two keys d=
uring a key
> rotation).=E2=80=9D Otherwise it can read as =E2=80=9Cjust one or two dur=
ing key rotation=E2=80=9D.
>
> 3.      4.2 Packet Transmission Section: =E2=80=9CA Babel node may delay =
actually
> sending TLVs by a small amount=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. Consider giving an exam=
ple of a small
> amount.
>
>
>
> Sound reasonable?
>
>
>
> mike
>

--000000000000e3c31505764271e2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Mike,<div><br></div><div>Thanks for the review. OK if I=
 forward to the babel WG mailing list?</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">=
Thanks,<br>Donald<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>=C2=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =C2=
=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)<br>=C2=A01424 Pro Shop Court, Davenport, FL 3389=
6 USA<br>=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">d3e3e3=
@gmail.com</a></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 7:46 PM Michael McBride &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Michael.McBride@huawei.com">Michael.McBride@huawei.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-5695186216837873324WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have been selected to do a routing directorate =E2=
=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D review of draft-ietf-babel-hmac.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Document: draft-ietf-babel-hmac-00<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Reviewer: Mike McBride<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Review Date: 19-09-2018<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Intended Status: Standards Track<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comments:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I only found a few nits. Great job with the draft, e=
specially being a 00. The nits that should be considered:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-5695186216837873324MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.2=
5in">
<u></u><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Add a Terminology section to include HMAC, Babel, PC, =
etc<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-5695186216837873324MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.2=
5in">
<u></u><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>1.1 Applicability Section: =E2=80=9CThe protocol defin=
ed in this document assumes that all interfaces on a given link are equally=
 trusted and share a small set of symmetric keys (usually just one, two dur=
ing key rotation).=E2=80=9D Consider changing
 it to: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6(Typically one key. Two keys during a key rotatio=
n).=E2=80=9D Otherwise it can read as =E2=80=9Cjust one or two during key r=
otation=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-5695186216837873324MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.2=
5in">
<u></u><span>3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>4.2 Packet Transmission Section: =E2=80=9CA Babel node=
 may delay actually sending TLVs by a small amount=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. Consi=
der giving an example of a small amount.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sound reasonable? <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">mike<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--000000000000e3c31505764271e2--


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From: Michael McBride <Michael.McBride@huawei.com>
To: "d3e3e3@gmail.com" <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-babel-hmac@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-babel-hmac@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "babel-chairs@ietf.org" <babel-chairs@ietf.org>
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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 01:52:59 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-babel-hmac
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--_000_etPan5ba2fd7b2d5238c31805MikesiPhone_
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Yes, sorry I forgot to include the wg. Thanks.

Mike
Sent from HUAWEI AnyOffice
From: Donald Eastlake
To: Michael McBride;
Cc: draft-ietf-babel-hmac@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; babel-chairs;
Subject: Re: Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-babel-hmac
Time: 2018-09-19 17:17:24


Hi Mike,

Thanks for the review. OK if I forward to the babel WG mailing list?

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 1424 Pro Shop Court, Davenport, FL 33896 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com<mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com>


On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 7:46 PM Michael McBride <Michael.McBride@huawei.com=
<mailto:Michael.McBride@huawei.com>> wrote:
I have been selected to do a routing directorate =93early=94 review of draf=
t-ietf-babel-hmac.

Document: draft-ietf-babel-hmac-00
Reviewer: Mike McBride
Review Date: 19-09-2018

Intended Status: Standards Track

Comments:

I only found a few nits. Great job with the draft, especially being a 00. T=
he nits that should be considered:


1.      Add a Terminology section to include HMAC, Babel, PC, etc

2.      1.1 Applicability Section: =93The protocol defined in this document=
 assumes that all interfaces on a given link are equally trusted and share =
a small set of symmetric keys (usually just one, two during key rotation).=
=94 Consider changing it to: =93=85(Typically one key. Two keys during a ke=
y rotation).=94 Otherwise it can read as =93just one or two during key rota=
tion=94.

3.      4.2 Packet Transmission Section: =93A Babel node may delay actually=
 sending TLVs by a small amount=85=94. Consider giving an example of a smal=
l amount.

Sound reasonable?

mike

--_000_etPan5ba2fd7b2d5238c31805MikesiPhone_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body>
<div>Yes,&nbsp;sorry&nbsp;I&nbsp;forgot&nbsp;to&nbsp;include&nbsp;the&nbsp;=
wg.&nbsp;Thanks.&nbsp;<br>
<br>
Mike&nbsp;<br>
Sent&nbsp;from&nbsp;HUAWEI&nbsp;AnyOffice</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>From: </b>Donald Eastlake</div>
<div><b>To: </b>Michael McBride; </div>
<div><b>Cc: </b>draft-ietf-babel-hmac@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; babel-cha=
irs; </div>
<div><b>Subject: </b>Re: Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-babel-hmac</div>
<div><b>Time: </b>2018-09-19 17:17:24</div>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Mike,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for the review. OK if I forward to the babel WG mailing list?</=
div>
<div><br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">Thanks,<br>
Donald<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&nbsp;Donald E. Eastlake 3rd &nbsp; &#43;1-508-333-2270 (cell)<br>
&nbsp;1424 Pro Shop Court, Davenport, FL 33896 USA<br>
&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">d3e3e3@gmail.co=
m</a></div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 7:46 PM Michael McBride &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Michael.McBride@huawei.com">Michael.McBride@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"m_-5695186216837873324WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have been selected to do a routing directorate =93=
early=94 review of draft-ietf-babel-hmac.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Document: draft-ietf-babel-hmac-00<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Reviewer: Mike McBride<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Review Date: 19-09-2018<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Intended Status: Standards Track<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comments:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I only found a few nits. Great job with the draft, e=
specially being a 00. The nits that should be considered:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-5695186216837873324MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.2=
5in"><u></u><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><u></u>Add a Terminology section to include HMAC, Babel, PC, =
etc<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-5695186216837873324MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.2=
5in"><u></u><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><u></u>1.1 Applicability Section: =93The protocol defined in =
this document assumes that all interfaces on a given link are equally trust=
ed and share a small set of symmetric keys (usually just one, two during ke=
y rotation).=94 Consider changing it
 to: =93=85(Typically one key. Two keys during a key rotation).=94 Otherwis=
e it can read as =93just one or two during key rotation=94.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"m_-5695186216837873324MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.2=
5in"><u></u><span>3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><u></u>4.2 Packet Transmission Section: =93A Babel node may d=
elay actually sending TLVs by a small amount=85=94. Consider giving an exam=
ple of a small amount.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sound reasonable? <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">mike<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_etPan5ba2fd7b2d5238c31805MikesiPhone_--


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From nobody Mon Sep 24 08:12:28 2018
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To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
References: <cb33dfed-f14a-e079-78a7-83659aac7ffb@orange.com> <da219cdbe1db4edab2afb4dc03aa8656@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com>
From: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
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Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 17:12:02 +0200
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
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Hi Les,

Thanks for you feedback. Please find some responses, marked [JM] below.
You may consider the trimmed ones as resolved. For others, please keep
in mind that the directorate's purpose is to improve documents'
readability before publication, as opposed to store clarification in
mailing list archives.

Julien


Sep. 24, 2018 - ginsberg@cisco.com:
> Julien -
> 
> Thanx for your detailed review - and your patience in waiting for a response (I returned from vacation only a few days ago).
> 
> I have published V16 of the draft which addresses your comments except as noted inline below.
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 8:28 AM
>>
<snip>
>>
>> - The abstract uses the acronym "SID", however:
>>     * It should be expanded at first use,
>>     * It should be defined, e.g. by adding a (normative) reference to RFC 8402
>> (at least in the introduction),
>>     * The SR context is missing and should be explicitly mentioned (adding a
>> phrase such as "in a Segment Routing-enabled network" would be enough).
> 
> [Les:] SID has been added to the terminology section and a reference to RFC 8402 added.
> However, I don’t think "SR context" is missing. The first sentence of the Introduction starts with
> 
> " When Segment Routing (SR) paths are computed..."
> 
[JM] I fully agree about the introduction, but my comment was about the
abstract where the SR context needs to be guessed from the use of the
"SID" terminology: an explicit phrase would be welcome to a rookie
reading the abstract.

>>
>> - OLD
>>    Path Computation Element Protocol (PCEP) SR extensions draft
>>    [I-D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] signals MSD in SR Path Computation
>>    Element (PCE) Capability TLV and METRIC Object.
>>   NEW
>>    The Path Computation Element communication Protocol (PCEP) SR
>>    extension document [I-D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] defines how to
>>    signal MSD using the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY sub-TLV (per node) and
>>    the METRIC object (per request).
>>
> [Les:] I have updated this and included a reference to RFC 5440 where METRIC object was first defined.
> 
[JM] Even better about METRIC. Consistently, "SR Path Computation
Element (PCE) Capability TLV" still remains a loose phrase, the
technical name from [I-D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] is
"SR-PCE-CAPABILITY", which avoids ambiguity.

>  
>> - The introduction says that the solution to complement BGP-LS lies in IS-IS
>> (the OSPF draft claiming the counterpart on its side). This is a bit rough, the
>> sentence 2 paragraph below already does the necessary scoping job: "This
>> document defines an extension to <your favorite IGP
>> here>". I suggest to temper the early sentence by rephrasing the
>> beginning of page 3 into: "MSD capabilities should be advertised by every
>> router in the network involved in the IGP."
>>
> [Les:] The draft says 
> 
> " MSD capabilities should be
>    advertised by every Intermediate System to Intermediate System(IS-IS)
>    router in the network."
> 
> which I believe meets your suggestion.
> 
[JM] My comment was exactly starting from there. Let me rephrase:
- This I-D says "should be advertised by every IS-IS router";
- draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd says "should be advertised by
every OSPF router".
Now that we have a single LSR WG, I suggest to drop these competing
wordings and consider a more consensual "should be advertised in the
IGP". Both documents already include a sentence "This document defines
an extension to IS-IS/OSPF" at the end of their introduction, which is
enough to define the scope.

>> - The wording of the following sentence is not clear: "Note that in a non-SR
>> MPLS network, label depth is what is defined by the MSD advertisements." Is
>> it intended to say: "Note that MSD advertisements are applicable beyond SR-
>> enabled networks and may refer to label depth in MPLS networks."?
>>
> [Les:] The draft says:
> 
> " Although MSD advertisements are associated with Segment Routing, the
>    advertisements MAY be present even if Segment Routing itself is not
>    enabled."
> 
> I have made this sentence and the following sentence (which you quoted) a separate paragraph - which hopefully makes this a bit clearer.
> 
[JM] Indeed, a separate paragraph is an improvement but doesn't fully
address my comment. The 2nd sentence I previously quoted combines the
passive voice on top of a subordinate clause starting with "what":
though grammatically correct, don't you disagree that the current
wording barely succeeds in achieving its purpose of building a loud and
clear message to be conveyed by an easy-to-parse sentence? Or do you?
;-) (Should you decide to leave it as is, be prepared to RFC Editor's
review.)

<snip>
>>
>> - The same ASCII art is used for the 2 figures (sections 2 and 3). It would be
>> nice to specialize each one a little bit by explicitly adding their respective
>> codepoint in the type field (23 and 15).
>>
> [Les:] The figure is intended to define the class of information in each field - not the actual values. The actual values are specified in the text which follows the ASCII art.
> 
[JM] This is acceptable to me, but twice the exact same figure makes the
reader wonder why not just two contexts with pointers to a single
definition.

<snip>
> 
>> - In section 5, BMI-MSD is defined as "the total number of MPLS  labels which
>> can be imposed" (which is OK when the incoming packet is unlabled). When
>> the incoming packet is labeled (e.g. use of segment routing binding SID), if
>> the incoming label is to be "replaced" by N outgoing labels, what processing
>> model is assumed when advertising the MSD:
>>  * one swap and one imposition of N-1 labels?
>>  * one pop and one imposition of N labels?
>>
> [Les:] What is being defined is the maximum number of SIDs/labels which can be "imposed". If popping or swapping affects the MSD which can be supported this needs to be accounted for in the advertisement. BMI-MSD is not being used to advertise a value specific to labeled or unlabeled packets nor a value which is "swap specific" or "pop specific". 
> 
[JM] We seem to agree on an architecture-agnostic use of BMI-MSD. "If
popping or swapping affects the MSD [...] this needs to be accounted
for" is a great introduction to the issue and deserves to be included in
the I-D. My comment now binds to: in order to have interoperable
implementations, I believe the document should be more prescriptive on
how we account that for.

>> - For the BMI-MSD use case, the draft seems to clearly target a value
>> attached to the outgoing link. However, this capability on a router is highly
>> hardware-dependent: some implementations may push a stack on the
>> egress linecard while some may perform it on the ingress linecard. The I-D
>> seems to make some implicit hardware assumption and the current link MSD
>> advertisement is not suited to describe these possible combinations of
>> hardware implementations. This needs to be addressed somehow.
>>
> [Les:] If a platform does imposition on ingress, then it should advertise only a Node MSD - as there would be no way to advertise a value which is specific to the ingress-egress interface combination. So, link MSDs for BMI are associated with the use of that interface as the outgoing link.
>[JM] OK. Could you please include that clarification in the I-D itself?

<snip>
>> - s/path doesn't exceed/path does not exceed/
> 
> [Les:] Done. You don't like contractions? :-)
> 
[JM] I don't dislike 'em, but I prefer a slightly more formal language
when writing standard text. :-)

>> - s/and associated attributes and capabilities/as well as associated attributes
>> and capabilities/
> 
> [Les:] I prefer the existing wording. 
> [JM] Acceptable to me, but may trigger a two-cycle reading on some
parser implementations.

Regards,

Julien


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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>, "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org>
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From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 13:28:36 -0700
Cc: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>, "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org>
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References: <cb33dfed-f14a-e079-78a7-83659aac7ffb@orange.com> <da219cdbe1db4edab2afb4dc03aa8656@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <2414700a-0cf2-f663-8ab8-c312c4845ebb@orange.com> <f74187a7c96b40ebae4dccdd26bc29f3@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/x5CBys-2ws19oJpAt_UHDShC8rI>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
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Gents,

Thanks for the great review!

Both drafts are on the Telechat tomorrow, would be great to come to the agre=
ement, so ospf draft could be updated before tomorrow=E2=80=99s call.

Regards,
Jeff

> On Sep 26, 2018, at 13:21, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com> wr=
ote:
>=20
> Julien -
>=20
> Thanx for the additional comments.
> V17 has been published to address these - subject to my responses below.
> See Les2
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rtg-dir <rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Julien Meuric
>> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:12 AM
>> To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>; rtg-ads@ietf.org
>> Cc: lsr@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-=20
>> msd@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review:=20
>> draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
>>=20
>> Hi Les,
>>=20
>> Thanks for you feedback. Please find some responses, marked [JM] below.
>> You may consider the trimmed ones as resolved. For others, please keep=20=

>> in mind that the directorate's purpose is to improve documents'
>> readability before publication, as opposed to store clarification in=20
>> mailing list archives.
>>=20
> [Les2:]  I fully appreciate both the purpose of the review and the effort y=
ou have put in. Yours is one of the better reviews I have seen in my years..=
.
> If I push back it is not because I do not value your input - but simply be=
cause I disagree. :-)
>=20
>> Julien
>>=20
>>=20
>> Sep. 24, 2018 - ginsberg@cisco.com:
>>> Julien -
>>>=20
>>> Thanx for your detailed review - and your patience in waiting for a
>> response (I returned from vacation only a few days ago).
>>>=20
>>> I have published V16 of the draft which addresses your comments=20
>>> except
>> as noted inline below.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 8:28 AM
>>>>=20
>> <snip>
>>>>=20
>>>> - The abstract uses the acronym "SID", however:
>>>>    * It should be expanded at first use,
>>>>    * It should be defined, e.g. by adding a (normative) reference=20
>>>> to RFC 8402 (at least in the introduction),
>>>>    * The SR context is missing and should be explicitly mentioned=20
>>>> (adding a phrase such as "in a Segment Routing-enabled network"=20
>>>> would
>> be enough).
>>>=20
>>> [Les:] SID has been added to the terminology section and a reference=20
>>> to
>> RFC 8402 added.
>>> However, I don=E2=80=99t think "SR context" is missing. The first senten=
ce=20
>>> of the Introduction starts with
>>>=20
>>> " When Segment Routing (SR) paths are computed..."
>>>=20
>> [JM] I fully agree about the introduction, but my comment was about=20
>> the abstract where the SR context needs to be guessed from the use of=20
>> the "SID" terminology: an explicit phrase would be welcome to a rookie=20=

>> reading the abstract.
>>=20
> [Les2:] I have modified the abstract.
>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> - OLD
>>>>   Path Computation Element Protocol (PCEP) SR extensions draft
>>>>   [I-D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] signals MSD in SR Path=20
>>>> Computation
>>>>   Element (PCE) Capability TLV and METRIC Object.
>>>>  NEW
>>>>   The Path Computation Element communication Protocol (PCEP) SR
>>>>   extension document [I-D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] defines how to
>>>>   signal MSD using the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY sub-TLV (per node) and
>>>>   the METRIC object (per request).
>>>>=20
>>> [Les:] I have updated this and included a reference to RFC 5440=20
>>> where
>> METRIC object was first defined.
>>>=20
>> [JM] Even better about METRIC. Consistently, "SR Path Computation=20
>> Element
>> (PCE) Capability TLV" still remains a loose phrase, the technical name=20=

>> from [I- D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] is "SR-PCE-CAPABILITY", which=20
>> avoids ambiguity.
>>=20
>=20
> [Les2:] I removed naming the specific TLVs and replaced it with " Path  Co=
mputation Element Protocol (PCEP)".
> I think this is better than mentioning specific TLV names - particularly s=
ince one of them is part of a draft and the TLV name might change before the=
 document becomes an RFC. So any possible naming inconsistency is now elimin=
ated.
>=20
>>>=20
>>>> - The introduction says that the solution to complement BGP-LS lies=20
>>>> in IS-IS (the OSPF draft claiming the counterpart on its side).=20
>>>> This is a bit rough, the sentence 2 paragraph below already does=20
>>>> the necessary scoping job: "This document defines an extension to=20
>>>> <your favorite IGP
>>>> here>". I suggest to temper the early sentence by rephrasing the
>>>> beginning of page 3 into: "MSD capabilities should be advertised by=20
>>>> every router in the network involved in the IGP."
>>>>=20
>>> [Les:] The draft says
>>>=20
>>> " MSD capabilities should be
>>>   advertised by every Intermediate System to Intermediate System(IS-IS)
>>>   router in the network."
>>>=20
>>> which I believe meets your suggestion.
>>>=20
>> [JM] My comment was exactly starting from there. Let me rephrase:
>> - This I-D says "should be advertised by every IS-IS router";
>> - draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd says "should be advertised by=20
>> every OSPF router".
>> Now that we have a single LSR WG, I suggest to drop these competing=20
>> wordings and consider a more consensual "should be advertised in the IGP"=
.
>> Both documents already include a sentence "This document defines an=20
>> extension to IS-IS/OSPF" at the end of their introduction, which is=20
>> enough to define the scope.
>>=20
> [Les2:] Sorry - here I will pushback.=20
> If the initial version of the MSD drafts had been written after (or close t=
o) when the two IGP WGs were combined into LSR, we undoubtedly would have wr=
itten one draft and included the IGP specific encodings for each protocol in=
 that one draft - and we then would have used "IGP" in many places. But by t=
he time LSR was formed the MSD drafts were already fairly mature, so we have=
 kept them separate. Given that, I see no reason to replace "OSPF/IS-IS" wit=
h "IGP" given that we have protocol specific drafts.
>=20
>>>> - The wording of the following sentence is not clear: "Note that in=20
>>>> a non-SR MPLS network, label depth is what is defined by the MSD=20
>>>> advertisements." Is it intended to say: "Note that MSD=20
>>>> advertisements are applicable beyond SR- enabled networks and may=20
>>>> refer to label depth
>> in MPLS networks."?
>>>>=20
>>> [Les:] The draft says:
>>>=20
>>> " Although MSD advertisements are associated with Segment Routing, the
>>>   advertisements MAY be present even if Segment Routing itself is not
>>>   enabled."
>>>=20
>>> I have made this sentence and the following sentence (which you=20
>>> quoted)
>> a separate paragraph - which hopefully makes this a bit clearer.
>>>=20
>> [JM] Indeed, a separate paragraph is an improvement but doesn't fully=20
>> address my comment. The 2nd sentence I previously quoted combines the=20
>> passive voice on top of a subordinate clause starting with "what":
>> though grammatically correct, don't you disagree that the current=20
>> wording barely succeeds in achieving its purpose of building a loud=20
>> and clear message to be conveyed by an easy-to-parse sentence? Or do you?=

>> ;-) (Should you decide to leave it as is, be prepared to RFC Editor's
>> review.)
>>=20
> [Les2:] I rewrote the paragraph - hopefully you will find it more acceptab=
le.
>=20
>> <snip>
>>>>=20
>>>> - The same ASCII art is used for the 2 figures (sections 2 and 3).=20
>>>> It would be nice to specialize each one a little bit by explicitly=20
>>>> adding their respective codepoint in the type field (23 and 15).
>>>>=20
>>> [Les:] The figure is intended to define the class of information in=20
>>> each field -
>> not the actual values. The actual values are specified in the text=20
>> which follows the ASCII art.
>>>=20
>> [JM] This is acceptable to me, but twice the exact same figure makes=20
>> the reader wonder why not just two contexts with pointers to a single def=
inition.
>>=20
> [Les2:] With TLV/sub-TLV encodings it is commonplace to provide the ASCII a=
rt in the section(s) specific to each advertisement. This avoids "flipping p=
ages" in order to see the actual encoding.
>=20
>> <snip>
>>>=20
>>>> - In section 5, BMI-MSD is defined as "the total number of MPLS=20
>>>> labels which can be imposed" (which is OK when the incoming packet=20
>>>> is unlabled). When the incoming packet is labeled (e.g. use of=20
>>>> segment routing binding SID), if the incoming label is to be=20
>>>> "replaced" by N outgoing labels, what processing model is assumed=20
>>>> when advertising the
>> MSD:
>>>> * one swap and one imposition of N-1 labels?
>>>> * one pop and one imposition of N labels?
>>>>=20
>>> [Les:] What is being defined is the maximum number of SIDs/labels=20
>>> which
>> can be "imposed". If popping or swapping affects the MSD which can be=20
>> supported this needs to be accounted for in the advertisement. BMI-MSD=20=

>> is not being used to advertise a value specific to labeled or=20
>> unlabeled packets nor a value which is "swap specific" or "pop specific".=

>>>=20
>> [JM] We seem to agree on an architecture-agnostic use of BMI-MSD. "If=20
>> popping or swapping affects the MSD [...] this needs to be accounted=20
>> for" is a great introduction to the issue and deserves to be included=20
>> in the I-D. My comment now binds to: in order to have interoperable=20
>> implementations, I believe the document should be more prescriptive on=20=

>> how we account that for.
>>=20
> [Les2:] Added text
>=20
>>>> - For the BMI-MSD use case, the draft seems to clearly target a=20
>>>> value attached to the outgoing link. However, this capability on a=20
>>>> router is highly
>>>> hardware-dependent: some implementations may push a stack on the=20
>>>> egress linecard while some may perform it on the ingress linecard.
>>>> The I-D seems to make some implicit hardware assumption and the=20
>>>> current link MSD advertisement is not suited to describe these=20
>>>> possible combinations of hardware implementations. This needs to be
>> addressed somehow.
>>>>=20
>>> [Les:] If a platform does imposition on ingress, then it should=20
>>> advertise only
>> a Node MSD - as there would be no way to advertise a value which is=20
>> specific to the ingress-egress interface combination. So, link MSDs=20
>> for BMI are associated with the use of that interface as the outgoing lin=
k.
>>> [JM] OK. Could you please include that clarification in the I-D itself?
>>=20
> [Les2:] Done
>=20
>    Les
>=20
>> <snip>
>>>> - s/path doesn't exceed/path does not exceed/
>>>=20
>>> [Les:] Done. You don't like contractions? :-)
>>>=20
>> [JM] I don't dislike 'em, but I prefer a slightly more formal language=20=

>> when writing standard text. :-)
>>=20
>>>> - s/and associated attributes and capabilities/as well as=20
>>>> associated attributes and capabilities/
>>>=20
>>> [Les:] I prefer the existing wording.
>>> [JM] Acceptable to me, but may trigger a two-cycle reading on some
>> parser implementations.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Julien
>=20


From nobody Wed Sep 26 14:37:37 2018
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From: Antoni Przygienda <prz@juniper.net>
To: "babel-wg-chairs@ietf.org" <babel-wg-chairs@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: Early review on draft-ietf-babel-dtls ... 
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Subject: [RTG-DIR] Early review on draft-ietf-babel-dtls ...
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To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org>
References: <cb33dfed-f14a-e079-78a7-83659aac7ffb@orange.com> <da219cdbe1db4edab2afb4dc03aa8656@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <2414700a-0cf2-f663-8ab8-c312c4845ebb@orange.com> <f74187a7c96b40ebae4dccdd26bc29f3@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com>
From: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/rySNsES_xdQdt_-ifmsIdoBEbaU>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
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Hi Les,

Please see inline.

Thank you,

Julien


Sep. 26, 2018 - ginsberg@cisco.com:
> Julien -
> 
> Thanx for the additional comments.
> V17 has been published to address these - subject to my responses below.
> See Les2
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rtg-dir <rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Julien Meuric
>> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:12 AM
>>
>> Hi Les,
>>
>> Thanks for you feedback. Please find some responses, marked [JM] below.
>> You may consider the trimmed ones as resolved. For others, please keep 
>> in mind that the directorate's purpose is to improve documents'
>> readability before publication, as opposed to store clarification in 
>> mailing list archives.
>>
> [Les2:]  I fully appreciate both the purpose of the review and the effort you have put in. Yours is one of the better reviews I have seen in my years...
> If I push back it is not because I do not value your input - but simply because I disagree. :-)
> 
>> Julien
>>
>>
>> Sep. 24, 2018 - ginsberg@cisco.com:
>>> Julien -
>>>
>>> Thanx for your detailed review - and your patience in waiting for a
>> response (I returned from vacation only a few days ago).
>>>
>>> I have published V16 of the draft which addresses your comments 
>>> except
>> as noted inline below.
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 8:28 AM
>>>>
>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> - The abstract uses the acronym "SID", however:
>>>>     * It should be expanded at first use,
>>>>     * It should be defined, e.g. by adding a (normative) reference 
>>>> to RFC 8402 (at least in the introduction),
>>>>     * The SR context is missing and should be explicitly mentioned 
>>>> (adding a phrase such as "in a Segment Routing-enabled network" 
>>>> would
>> be enough).
>>>
>>> [Les:] SID has been added to the terminology section and a reference 
>>> to
>> RFC 8402 added.
>>> However, I don’t think "SR context" is missing. The first sentence 
>>> of the Introduction starts with
>>>
>>> " When Segment Routing (SR) paths are computed..."
>>>
>> [JM] I fully agree about the introduction, but my comment was about 
>> the abstract where the SR context needs to be guessed from the use of 
>> the "SID" terminology: an explicit phrase would be welcome to a rookie 
>> reading the abstract.
>>
> [Les2:] I have modified the abstract.
> 
[JM2] ...and addressed most of my comment, thanks. (The RFC Editor may
still request you to expand "SID".)

>>>>
>>>> - OLD
>>>>    Path Computation Element Protocol (PCEP) SR extensions draft
>>>>    [I-D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] signals MSD in SR Path 
>>>> Computation
>>>>    Element (PCE) Capability TLV and METRIC Object.
>>>>   NEW
>>>>    The Path Computation Element communication Protocol (PCEP) SR
>>>>    extension document [I-D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] defines how to
>>>>    signal MSD using the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY sub-TLV (per node) and
>>>>    the METRIC object (per request).
>>>>
>>> [Les:] I have updated this and included a reference to RFC 5440 
>>> where
>> METRIC object was first defined.
>>>
>> [JM] Even better about METRIC. Consistently, "SR Path Computation 
>> Element
>> (PCE) Capability TLV" still remains a loose phrase, the technical name 
>> from [I- D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] is "SR-PCE-CAPABILITY", which 
>> avoids ambiguity.
>>
> 
> [Les2:] I removed naming the specific TLVs and replaced it with " Path  Computation Element Protocol (PCEP)".
> I think this is better than mentioning specific TLV names - particularly since one of them is part of a draft and the TLV name might change before the document becomes an RFC. So any possible naming inconsistency is now eliminated.
> 
[JM2] As there's an early IANA allocation on this TLV, I don't expect
any change in its name, but I can hear that argument. If you want a full
phrase, then I prefer the text from v16, because "SR Path Computation
Element (PCE) Capability" matches the section title of the PCEP draft
(and a slight change later wouldn't have much impact). In case you're
into removing the TLV/objects names and just point to PCEP, then you
MUST use the full expansion which is "Path Computation Element
*communication* Protocol" (and SHOULD avoid asking about the missing C
;-) ).

>>>
>>>> - The introduction says that the solution to complement BGP-LS lies 
>>>> in IS-IS (the OSPF draft claiming the counterpart on its side). 
>>>> This is a bit rough, the sentence 2 paragraph below already does 
>>>> the necessary scoping job: "This document defines an extension to 
>>>> <your favorite IGP
>>>> here>". I suggest to temper the early sentence by rephrasing the
>>>> beginning of page 3 into: "MSD capabilities should be advertised by 
>>>> every router in the network involved in the IGP."
>>>>
>>> [Les:] The draft says
>>>
>>> " MSD capabilities should be
>>>    advertised by every Intermediate System to Intermediate System(IS-IS)
>>>    router in the network."
>>>
>>> which I believe meets your suggestion.
>>>
>> [JM] My comment was exactly starting from there. Let me rephrase:
>> - This I-D says "should be advertised by every IS-IS router";
>> - draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd says "should be advertised by 
>> every OSPF router".
>> Now that we have a single LSR WG, I suggest to drop these competing 
>> wordings and consider a more consensual "should be advertised in the IGP".
>> Both documents already include a sentence "This document defines an 
>> extension to IS-IS/OSPF" at the end of their introduction, which is 
>> enough to define the scope.
>>
> [Les2:] Sorry - here I will pushback. 
> If the initial version of the MSD drafts had been written after (or close to) when the two IGP WGs were combined into LSR, we undoubtedly would have written one draft and included the IGP specific encodings for each protocol in that one draft - and we then would have used "IGP" in many places. But by the time LSR was formed the MSD drafts were already fairly mature, so we have kept them separate. Given that, I see no reason to replace "OSPF/IS-IS" with "IGP" given that we have protocol specific drafts.
> 
[JM2] The protocol-specific scope is already well defined by the last
paragraph of the introduction. Whatever the WG legacy, there is no
technical reason to say "I, IS-IS, am the solution" on one side and "I,
OSPF, am the solution" on the other side. I still believe this claim is
both wrong and unnecessary in these drafts, but it's rhetorical and
doesn't impact the technical specification, so I can live with that.

>>>> - The wording of the following sentence is not clear: "Note that in 
>>>> a non-SR MPLS network, label depth is what is defined by the MSD 
>>>> advertisements." Is it intended to say: "Note that MSD 
>>>> advertisements are applicable beyond SR- enabled networks and may 
>>>> refer to label depth
>> in MPLS networks."?
>>>>
>>> [Les:] The draft says:
>>>
>>> " Although MSD advertisements are associated with Segment Routing, the
>>>    advertisements MAY be present even if Segment Routing itself is not
>>>    enabled."
>>>
>>> I have made this sentence and the following sentence (which you 
>>> quoted)
>> a separate paragraph - which hopefully makes this a bit clearer.
>>>
>> [JM] Indeed, a separate paragraph is an improvement but doesn't fully 
>> address my comment. The 2nd sentence I previously quoted combines the 
>> passive voice on top of a subordinate clause starting with "what":
>> though grammatically correct, don't you disagree that the current 
>> wording barely succeeds in achieving its purpose of building a loud 
>> and clear message to be conveyed by an easy-to-parse sentence? Or do you?
>> ;-) (Should you decide to leave it as is, be prepared to RFC Editor's
>> review.)
>>
> [Les2:] I rewrote the paragraph - hopefully you will find it more acceptable.
> 
[JM2] Yes, it's much clearer now.

>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> - The same ASCII art is used for the 2 figures (sections 2 and 3). 
>>>> It would be nice to specialize each one a little bit by explicitly 
>>>> adding their respective codepoint in the type field (23 and 15).
>>>>
>>> [Les:] The figure is intended to define the class of information in 
>>> each field -
>> not the actual values. The actual values are specified in the text 
>> which follows the ASCII art.
>>>
>> [JM] This is acceptable to me, but twice the exact same figure makes 
>> the reader wonder why not just two contexts with pointers to a single definition.
>>
> [Les2:] With TLV/sub-TLV encodings it is commonplace to provide the ASCII art in the section(s) specific to each advertisement. This avoids "flipping pages" in order to see the actual encoding.
> 
[JM2] I agree with that, all the more as a small figure instantiated
twice in a 9-page document isn't a big deal.

>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> - In section 5, BMI-MSD is defined as "the total number of MPLS 
>>>> labels which can be imposed" (which is OK when the incoming packet 
>>>> is unlabled). When the incoming packet is labeled (e.g. use of 
>>>> segment routing binding SID), if the incoming label is to be 
>>>> "replaced" by N outgoing labels, what processing model is assumed 
>>>> when advertising the
>> MSD:
>>>>  * one swap and one imposition of N-1 labels?
>>>>  * one pop and one imposition of N labels?
>>>>
>>> [Les:] What is being defined is the maximum number of SIDs/labels 
>>> which
>> can be "imposed". If popping or swapping affects the MSD which can be 
>> supported this needs to be accounted for in the advertisement. BMI-MSD 
>> is not being used to advertise a value specific to labeled or 
>> unlabeled packets nor a value which is "swap specific" or "pop specific".
>>>
>> [JM] We seem to agree on an architecture-agnostic use of BMI-MSD. "If 
>> popping or swapping affects the MSD [...] this needs to be accounted 
>> for" is a great introduction to the issue and deserves to be included 
>> in the I-D. My comment now binds to: in order to have interoperable 
>> implementations, I believe the document should be more prescriptive on 
>> how we account that for.
>>
> [Les2:] Added text
>  
[JM2] Thanks, this is a significant improvement. After talking to Bruno,
we however feel that the proposed wording remains ambiguous, and
especially the phrases "imposed under all conditions" and "be accounted
for". Indeed, section 3.10 of RFC 3031 defines "the operation to perform
on the packet's label stack" and doesn't mention "impose". The closest
concept may be found in:
"        replace the label at the top of the label stack with a
         specified new label, and then push one or more specified new
         labels onto the label stack."
Combining this split to your current text may lead to different
interpretations. Could you clarify the paragraph to be more specific on
the corresponding definitions and fully clear the fuzzy zone?

>>>> - For the BMI-MSD use case, the draft seems to clearly target a 
>>>> value attached to the outgoing link. However, this capability on a 
>>>> router is highly
>>>> hardware-dependent: some implementations may push a stack on the 
>>>> egress linecard while some may perform it on the ingress linecard.
>>>> The I-D seems to make some implicit hardware assumption and the 
>>>> current link MSD advertisement is not suited to describe these 
>>>> possible combinations of hardware implementations. This needs to be
>> addressed somehow.
>>>>
>>> [Les:] If a platform does imposition on ingress, then it should 
>>> advertise only
>> a Node MSD - as there would be no way to advertise a value which is 
>> specific to the ingress-egress interface combination. So, link MSDs 
>> for BMI are associated with the use of that interface as the outgoing link.
>>> [JM] OK. Could you please include that clarification in the I-D itself?
>>
> [Les2:] Done
> 
[JM2] Thanks.

>     Les
> 
>> <snip>
>>>> - s/path doesn't exceed/path does not exceed/
>>>
>>> [Les:] Done. You don't like contractions? :-)
>>>
>> [JM] I don't dislike 'em, but I prefer a slightly more formal language 
>> when writing standard text. :-)
>>
>>>> - s/and associated attributes and capabilities/as well as 
>>>> associated attributes and capabilities/
>>>
>>> [Les:] I prefer the existing wording.
>>> [JM] Acceptable to me, but may trigger a two-cycle reading on some
>> parser implementations.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Julien
> 


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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>, "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org>
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To: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>,  "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org>,  "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
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On September 27, 2018 at 6:26:57 AM, Julien Meuric (julien.meuric@orange.co=
m)
wrote:

Hi!

It looks like the outstanding item is this one about the terminology used
in =C2=A75.

tl;dr: I think that the terminology can be slightly improved to be in line
with other documents.  See suggestion at the bottom.

>>>> - In section 5, BMI-MSD is defined as "the total number of MPLS
>>>> labels which can be imposed" (which is OK when the incoming packet
>>>> is unlabled). When the incoming packet is labeled (e.g. use of
>>>> segment routing binding SID), if the incoming label is to be
>>>> "replaced" by N outgoing labels, what processing model is assumed
>>>> when advertising the
>> MSD:
>>>> * one swap and one imposition of N-1 labels?
>>>> * one pop and one imposition of N labels?
>>>>
>>> [Les:] What is being defined is the maximum number of SIDs/labels
>>> which
>> can be "imposed". If popping or swapping affects the MSD which can be
>> supported this needs to be accounted for in the advertisement. BMI-MSD
>> is not being used to advertise a value specific to labeled or
>> unlabeled packets nor a value which is "swap specific" or "pop specific"=
.

>>>
>> [JM] We seem to agree on an architecture-agnostic use of BMI-MSD. "If
>> popping or swapping affects the MSD [...] this needs to be accounted
>> for" is a great introduction to the issue and deserves to be included
>> in the I-D. My comment now binds to: in order to have interoperable
>> implementations, I believe the document should be more prescriptive on
>> how we account that for.
>>
> [Les2:] Added text
>
[JM2] Thanks, this is a significant improvement. After talking to Bruno,
we however feel that the proposed wording remains ambiguous, and
especially the phrases "imposed under all conditions" and "be accounted
for". Indeed, section 3.10 of RFC 3031 defines "the operation to perform
on the packet's label stack" and doesn't mention "impose". The closest
concept may be found in:
" replace the label at the top of the label stack with a
specified new label, and then push one or more specified new
labels onto the label stack."
Combining this split to your current text may lead to different
interpretations. Could you clarify the paragraph to be more specific on
the corresponding definitions and fully clear the fuzzy zone?

The document currently (-17) reads:

   Base MPLS Imposition MSD (BMI-MSD) signals the total number of MPLS
   labels which can be imposed, including all service/transport/special
   labels.  The value advertised MUST indicate what can be imposed under
   all conditions e.g., if label popping/swapping affects the number of
   labels which can be imposed this MUST be accounted for in the value
   which is advertised.

   If the advertising router performs label imposition in the context of
   the ingress interface, it is not possible to meaningfully advertise
   per link values.  In such a case only the Node MSD SHOULD be
   advertised.


I think that the term =E2=80=9Clabel imposition=E2=80=9D is relatively well=
 understood, as
the act of putting labels on the packet (labeling a packet).  However,
rfc3031 doesn=E2=80=99t talk about imposition; instead it says that a ""lab=
eled
packet" is a packet into which a label has been encoded=E2=80=9D, and it ta=
lks
about pushing labels on the stack.  The SR documents (rfc8402
and draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls) also don=E2=80=99t talk about
imposition, nor do they offer a better alternative.

The text may be interpreted from the point of view of what the LSR can
impose, vs what can be imposed on the packet=E2=80=A6which can result in
confusion.  Note that =C2=A77 clarifies which node is expected to do the
imposition: "the head-end (the node performing the imposition)=E2=80=9D.

rfc4221 does provide a clear precedent of the use of imposition, and a
related definition (referring to the LSR MIB / rfc3813):
"mplsMaxLabelStackDepth defines the maximum size of a imposed label stack
supported at this LSR=E2=80=9D.  This definition is akin to what this docum=
ent
already says: =E2=80=9CMSD...the number of SIDs supported=E2=80=9D (=C2=A71=
.1).  The definition
in rfc4221 also presents a subtle difference (from the text in this
document): it talks about the =E2=80=9Cimposed label stack supported=E2=80=
=9D (not =E2=80=9Clabels
which can be imposed=E2=80=9D).  I interpret the =E2=80=9Cimposed label sta=
ck=E2=80=9D as already
taking into consideration any operations that can be performed (rfc3031).

My suggestion is to borrow from rfc4221 and simplify the definition:

NEW>

   Base MPLS Imposition MSD (BMI-MSD) indicates the maximum size of an
   imposed label stack supported by the node.

   If it is not possible to meaningfully advertise
   per link values, then only the Node MSD SHOULD be
   advertised.


 In line with that suggestion, we could clean up some of the related text:

=C2=A71 s/the controller learns the Maximum SID Depth (MSD) that can be imp=
osed
at each node/link/the controller learns the Maximum SID Depth (MSD)
supported at each node/link

=C2=A71 s/not exceed the number of SIDs the node is capable of imposing/not
exceed the number of SIDs the node is capable of supporting

=C2=A71.1: s/BMI: Base MPLS Imposition=E2=80=A6/BMI: Base MPLS Imposition i=
s the size of
the imposed label stack supported

Does this work?

Thanks!

Alvaro.

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">On September 2=
7, 2018 at 6:26:57 AM, Julien Meuric (<a href=3D"mailto:julien.meuric@orang=
e.com">julien.meuric@orange.com</a>) wrote:</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_cu=
stomfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><b=
r></font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margi=
n:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">Hi!</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont=
" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font=
></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><=
font face=3D"Helvetica">It looks like the outstanding item is this one abou=
t the terminology used in =C2=A75.</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont"=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font>=
</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helve=
tica">tl;dr: I think that the terminology can be slightly improved to be in=
 line with other documents.=C2=A0 See suggestion at the bottom.</font></div=
><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font f=
ace=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div> <div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D=
"clean_bq" style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px"><span><div><font face=3D"Helvetica"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);=
font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent=
:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-col=
or:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -=
 In section 5, BMI-MSD is defined as &quot;the total number of MPLS<span cl=
ass=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!impor=
tant">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; labels which can be imposed&quot; (which is OK when =
the incoming packet<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></spa=
n><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal=
;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);floa=
t:none;display:inline!important">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is unlabled). When the in=
coming packet is labeled (e.g. use of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;=
letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb=
(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; segment=
 routing binding SID), if the incoming label is to be<span class=3D"Apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-vari=
ant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; &quot;replaced&quot; by N outgoing labels, what processing model i=
s assumed<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;dis=
play:inline!important">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; when advertising the<span class=3D"=
Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&=
gt;&gt; MSD:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-=
space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;=
display:inline!important">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; * one swap and one imposition of=
 N-1 labels?<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-=
space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;=
display:inline!important">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; * one pop and one imposition of =
N labels?<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;dis=
play:inline!important">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space=
">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:norma=
l;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font=
-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:r=
gb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&gt;&gt;&gt; [Les:] Wh=
at is being defined is the maximum number of SIDs/labels<span class=3D"Appl=
e-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;b=
ackground-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&gt;&=
gt;&gt; which<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none=
;display:inline!important">&gt;&gt; can be &quot;imposed&quot;. If popping =
or swapping affects the MSD which can be<span class=3D"Apple-converted-spac=
e">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:norm=
al;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no=
ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon=
t-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0p=
x;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:=
rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&gt;&gt; supported th=
is needs to be accounted for in the advertisement. BMI-MSD<span class=3D"Ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font=
-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&gt=
;&gt; is not being used to advertise a value specific to labeled or<span cl=
ass=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!impor=
tant">&gt;&gt; unlabeled packets nor a value which is &quot;swap specific&q=
uot; or &quot;pop specific&quot;.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-vari=
ant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(25=
5,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&gt;&gt;&gt;<span class=3D"=
Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&=
gt;&gt; [JM] We seem to agree on an architecture-agnostic use of BMI-MSD. &=
quot;If<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spaci=
ng:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;disp=
lay:inline!important">&gt;&gt; popping or swapping affects the MSD [...] th=
is needs to be accounted<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:n=
ormal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:n=
ormal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform=
:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)=
;float:none;display:inline!important">&gt;&gt; for&quot; is a great introdu=
ction to the issue and deserves to be included<span class=3D"Apple-converte=
d-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-cap=
s:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-=
color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&gt;&gt; in the=
 I-D. My comment now binds to: in order to have interoperable<span class=3D=
"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:=
0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">=
&gt;&gt; implementations, I believe the document should be more prescriptiv=
e on<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:=
inline!important">&gt;&gt; how we account that for.<span class=3D"Apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-varian=
t-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;backgr=
ound-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&gt;&gt;<s=
pan class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline=
!important">&gt; [Les2:] Added text<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;=
letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb=
(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&gt;<span class=3D"Apple=
-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-=
space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant=
-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,2=
55,255);float:none;display:inline!important">[JM2] Thanks, this is a signif=
icant improvement. After talking to Bruno,<span class=3D"Apple-converted-sp=
ace">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:no=
rmal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:=
0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-colo=
r:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">we however feel tha=
t the proposed wording remains ambiguous, and<span class=3D"Apple-converted=
-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps=
:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo=
rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inde=
nt:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-c=
olor:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">especially the p=
hrases &quot;imposed under all conditions&quot; and &quot;be accounted<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;t=
ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!im=
portant">for&quot;. Indeed, section 3.10 of RFC 3031 defines &quot;the oper=
ation to perform<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><=
br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:n=
one;display:inline!important">on the packet&#39;s label stack&quot; and doe=
sn&#39;t mention &quot;impose&quot;. The closest<span class=3D"Apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-c=
aps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;backgroun=
d-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">concept may b=
e found in:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;d=
isplay:inline!important">&quot; replace the label at the top of the label s=
tack with a<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;d=
isplay:inline!important">specified new label, and then push one or more spe=
cified new<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-sp=
ace:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;di=
splay:inline!important">labels onto the label stack.&quot;<span class=3D"Ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font=
-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">Com=
bining this split to your current text may lead to different<span class=3D"=
Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">i=
nterpretations. Could you clarify the paragraph to be more specific on<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;t=
ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!im=
portant">the corresponding definitions and fully clear the fuzzy zone?</spa=
n></font></div></span></blockquote></div><p><font face=3D"Helvetica">The do=
cument currently (-17) reads:</font></p><pre class=3D"newpage"><font face=
=3D"Helvetica">   Base MPLS Imposition MSD (BMI-MSD) signals the total numb=
er of MPLS
   labels which can be imposed, including all service/transport/special
   labels.  The value advertised MUST indicate what can be imposed under
   all conditions e.g., if label popping/swapping affects the number of
   labels which can be imposed this MUST be accounted for in the value
   which is advertised.</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage"><font face=3D"He=
lvetica">   If the advertising router performs label imposition in the cont=
ext of
   the ingress interface, it is not possible to meaningfully advertise
   per link values.  In such a case only the Node MSD SHOULD be
   advertised.
</font></pre> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sig=
n"></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><f=
ont face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221=
998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helvetica">I think that the term=
 =E2=80=9Clabel imposition=E2=80=9D is relatively well understood, as the a=
ct of putting labels on the packet (labeling a packet).=C2=A0 However, rfc3=
031 doesn=E2=80=99t talk about imposition; instead it says that a &quot;&qu=
ot;labeled packet&quot; is a packet into which a label has been encoded=E2=
=80=9D, and it talks about pushing labels on the stack.=C2=A0 The SR docume=
nts (rfc8402 and=C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls) also don=E2=
=80=99t talk about imposition, nor do they offer a better alternative.</fon=
t></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><fo=
nt face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_15380627062219=
98080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helvetica">The text may be interp=
reted from the point of view of what the LSR can impose, vs what can be imp=
osed on the packet=E2=80=A6which can result in confusion.=C2=A0 Note that =
=C2=A77 clarifies which node is expected to do the imposition: &quot;the he=
ad-end (the node performing the imposition)=E2=80=9D.</font></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helv=
etica"><br></font></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D=
"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helvetica">rfc4221 does provide a clear preceden=
t of the use of imposition, and a related definition (referring to the LSR =
MIB / rfc3813): &quot;mplsMaxLabelStackDepth defines the maximum size of a =
imposed label stack supported at this LSR=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 This definition i=
s akin to what this document already says: =E2=80=9CMSD...the number of SID=
s supported=E2=80=9D (=C2=A71.1).=C2=A0 The definition in rfc4221 also pres=
ents a subtle difference (from the text in this document): it talks about t=
he =E2=80=9Cimposed label stack supported=E2=80=9D (not =E2=80=9Clabels whi=
ch can be imposed=E2=80=9D).=C2=A0 I interpret the =E2=80=9Cimposed label s=
tack=E2=80=9D as already taking into consideration any operations that can =
be performed (rfc3031).</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_15380627062219980=
80" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helv=
etica">My suggestion is to borrow from rfc4221 and simplify the definition:=
</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign=
"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_153806270=
6221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helvetica">NEW&gt;</font></d=
iv><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><pre cla=
ss=3D"newpage"><font face=3D"Helvetica">   Base MPLS Imposition MSD (BMI-MS=
D) indicates the maximum size of an
   imposed label stack supported by the node. <br></font></pre><pre class=
=3D"newpage"><font face=3D"Helvetica">   If it is not possible to meaningfu=
lly advertise =20
   per link values, then only the Node MSD SHOULD be
   advertised.</font></pre><div><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><=
/div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font =
face=3D"Helvetica">=C2=A0In line with that suggestion, we could clean up so=
me of the related text:</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_15380627062219980=
80" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helv=
etica">=C2=A71 s/the controller learns the Maximum SID Depth (MSD) that can=
 be imposed at each node/link/the controller learns the Maximum SID Depth (=
MSD) supported at each node/link</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_15380627=
06221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div=
><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=
=3D"Helvetica">=C2=A71 s/not exceed the number of SIDs the node is capable =
of imposing/not exceed the number of SIDs the node is capable of supporting=
</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign=
"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_153806270=
6221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helvetica">=C2=A71.1: s/BMI:=
 Base MPLS Imposition=E2=80=A6/BMI: Base MPLS Imposition is the size of the=
 imposed label stack supported=C2=A0</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538=
062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font><=
/div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font =
face=3D"Helvetica">Does this work?</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_153806=
2706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></d=
iv><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font fa=
ce=3D"Helvetica">Thanks!</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998=
080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_sign_1538062706221998080" class=3D"bloop_sign"><font face=3D"Helv=
etica">Alvaro.</font></div></body></html>

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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 18:44:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
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To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
Cc: "draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org>,  "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
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On September 27, 2018 at 2:44:34 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) (
ginsberg@cisco.com) wrote:

Les:

Sometimes less is more. ;-)

My personal opinion is that, given the precedent from rfc4221, the
additional considerations are implied.

I=E2=80=99ll approve the publication either way once you and Julien agree.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

--0000000000001790aa0576deff77
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">On September 2=
7, 2018 at 2:44:34 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) (<a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@=
cisco.com">ginsberg@cisco.com</a>) wrote:</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_cust=
omfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br>=
</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:=
0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">Les:</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont"=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font>=
</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><f=
ont face=3D"Helvetica">Sometimes less is more. ;-)</font></div><div id=3D"b=
loop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvet=
ica"><br></font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">My personal opinion is that, given t=
he precedent from rfc4221, the additional considerations are implied. =C2=
=A0</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);marg=
in:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfo=
nt" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">I=E2=80=
=99ll approve the publication either way once you and Julien agree.</font><=
/div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><fo=
nt face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">Thanks!</font></d=
iv><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font=
 face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">Alvaro.</font></div><=
div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font fac=
e=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><br><br></div></body></html>

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Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Early Review: draft-ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf-02
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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, MEURIC Julien IMT/OLN <julien.meuric@orange.com>
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Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
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To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org>
References: <cb33dfed-f14a-e079-78a7-83659aac7ffb@orange.com> <da219cdbe1db4edab2afb4dc03aa8656@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <2414700a-0cf2-f663-8ab8-c312c4845ebb@orange.com> <f74187a7c96b40ebae4dccdd26bc29f3@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <af362362-3c0c-6e42-562e-c6f7f16d14ff@orange.com> <5bd3a665544946e28bcf5785856f0ce8@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com>
From: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:21:45 +0200
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
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    Hi Les,<br>
    <br>
    We're converging. Please see below.<br>
    <br>
    Julien<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Sep. 27, 2018 - <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com">ginsberg@cisco.com</a>:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:5bd3a665544946e28bcf5785856f0ce8@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Julien -<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Snipping out the resolved bits.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; -----Original Message-----</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; From: Julien Meuric
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:julien.meuric@orange.com">&lt;julien.meuric@orange.com&gt;</a></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018
          3:27 AM</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; </p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; Hi Les,</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; </p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; Please see inline.</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; </p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; Thank you,</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; </p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; Julien</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; </p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; </p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - OLD</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;    Path
          Computation Element Protocol (PCEP) SR extensions draft</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;   
          [I-D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] signals MSD in SR Path</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Computation</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;    Element (PCE)
          Capability TLV and METRIC Object.</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;   NEW</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;    The Path
          Computation Element communication Protocol (PCEP) SR</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;    extension
          document [I-D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] defines how to</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;    signal MSD
          using the SR-PCE-CAPABILITY sub-TLV (per node) and</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;    the METRIC
          object (per request).</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; [Les:] I have updated
          this and included a reference to RFC 5440</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; where</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; METRIC object was first
          defined.</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; [JM] Even better about
          METRIC. Consistently, "SR Path Computation</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; Element</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; (PCE) Capability TLV"
          still remains a loose phrase, the technical</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; name from [I-
          D.ietf-pce-segment-routing] is "SR-PCE-CAPABILITY",</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; which avoids ambiguity.</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt; [Les2:] I removed naming the
          specific TLVs and replaced it with " Path</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; Computation Element Protocol
          (PCEP)".</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt; I think this is better than
          mentioning specific TLV names - particularly since</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; one of them is part of a draft and
          the TLV name might change before the</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; document becomes an RFC. So any
          possible naming inconsistency is now</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; eliminated.</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; [JM2] As there's an early IANA
          allocation on this TLV, I don't expect any</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; change in its name, but I can hear
          that argument. If you want a full phrase,</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; then I prefer the text from v16,
          because "SR Path Computation Element</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; (PCE) Capability" matches the
          section title of the PCEP draft (and a slight</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; change later wouldn't have much
          impact). In case you're into removing the</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; TLV/objects names and just point to
          PCEP, then you MUST use the full</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; expansion which is "Path
          Computation Element</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; *communication* Protocol" (and
          SHOULD avoid asking about the missing C</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; ;-) ).</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i>[Les:] I don't really care, but I
              am having trouble with your suggestion.<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i>IT is true that RFC 5440 is
              entitled:  "Path Computation Element (PCE) Communication
              Protocol (PCEP)"<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><o:p> </o:p></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i>However, in the body of the RFC we
              see <o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><o:p> </o:p></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><i>"This
              document specifies the Path Computation Element Protocol
              (PCEP)".<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><o:p> </o:p></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i>Also, in
              draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing-12 we also see
              <o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><o:p> </o:p></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><i>"[RFC5440]
              describes the Path Computation Element Protocol (PCEP)
              ..."<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><o:p> </o:p></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i>So explain to me why this document
              should deviate from these other PCE oriented documents???<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [JM3] That's a recurrent issue. It's true that here are a few
    inconsistencies out there, starting from RFC 5440 (the RFC Editor
    can be picky, but remains human). This legacy isn't serious enough
    to require bis documents. The expansion which has been used most of
    the time in the PCE documents (e.g., RFC 8306, 8356, 8408) is the
    one from RFC 5440's title and abstract, which includes
    "Communication". This is the one we try to enforce with Jon in the
    documents we review, so please be my guest. :-)<br>
    (By the way, thank you for pointing this issue on
    draft-ietf-pce-segment-routing: we may include this update even
    before reaching the RFC Editor.)<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:5bd3a665544946e28bcf5785856f0ce8@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - In section 5,
          BMI-MSD is defined as "the total number of MPLS</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; labels which can
          be imposed" (which is OK when the incoming packet</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is unlabled). When
          the incoming packet is labeled (e.g. use of</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; segment routing
          binding SID), if the incoming label is to be</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; "replaced" by N
          outgoing labels, what processing model is assumed</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; when advertising
          the</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; MSD:</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;  * one swap and
          one imposition of N-1 labels?</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;  * one pop and one
          imposition of N labels?</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; [Les:] What is being
          defined is the maximum number of SIDs/labels</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; which</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; can be "imposed". If
          popping or swapping affects the MSD which can be</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; supported this needs to be
          accounted for in the advertisement.</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; BMI-MSD is not being used
          to advertise a value specific to labeled or</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; unlabeled packets nor a
          value which is "swap specific" or "pop specific".</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; [JM] We seem to agree on
          an architecture-agnostic use of BMI-MSD. "If</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; popping or swapping
          affects the MSD [...] this needs to be accounted</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; for" is a great
          introduction to the issue and deserves to be included</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; in the I-D. My comment now
          binds to: in order to have interoperable</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; implementations, I believe
          the document should be more prescriptive</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt; on how we account that
          for.</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;&gt;</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt; [Les2:] Added text</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; &gt;</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; [JM2] Thanks, this is a significant
          improvement. After talking to Bruno, we</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; however feel that the proposed
          wording remains ambiguous, and especially</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; the phrases "imposed under all
          conditions" and "be accounted for". Indeed,</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; section 3.10 of RFC 3031 defines
          "the operation to perform on the packet's</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; label stack" and doesn't mention
          "impose". The closest concept may be</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; found in:</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; "        replace the label at the
          top of the label stack with a</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt;          specified new label, and
          then push one or more specified new</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt;          labels onto the label
          stack."</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; Combining this split to your
          current text may lead to different</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; interpretations. Could you clarify
          the paragraph to be more specific on the</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; corresponding definitions and fully
          clear the fuzzy zone?</p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">&gt; </p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">[Les:] I
                am trying to understand exactly what is desired here.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">It seems
                you do not like the term “impose/imposition” – which
                affects other places in the draft. I appreciate that RFC
                3031 does not use the term “impose”. However the usage
                here is not to formally define a specific MPLS operation
                but to use a generic term which covers all the flavors
                of MPLS operations (swap, pop, push).<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">I can
                eliminate perhaps some of the “fuzziness” by:<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">OLD<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">“The
                value advertised MUST indicate what can be imposed under<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">   all
                conditions e.g., if label popping/swapping affects the
                number of<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">  
                labels which can be imposed this MUST be accounted for
                in the value<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">   which
                is advertised.”<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">NEW<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">“The
                value advertised MUST indicate the lowest maximum number
                of labels which  can be imposed under<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">   all
                conditions e.g., if label popping/swapping reduces the
                maximum number of<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">  
                labels which can be imposed this lower number MUST be
                what is advertised.”<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">But I
                suspect this does not address all of your concerns.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">???<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">   Les<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [JM3] Actually, my point is to clarify this very document and your
    NEW wording is a significant improvement; thank you for that.
    Nevertheless, the text still relies on this under-defined term
    "impose", which might be subject to different interpretation. To
    quote Bruno, if we're talking about "adding" or "pushing", why not
    just using the well-defined vocabulary?<br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>


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To: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org>, "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>
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From: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Review: draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd-15
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Thank you Alvaro. Though not less, I think we're about to find an
agreement on Les's wording.

Julien


Sep. 27, 2018 - aretana.ietf@gmail.com:
> I’ll approve the publication either way once you and Julien agree.


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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, MEURIC Julien IMT/OLN <julien.meuric@orange.com>
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Reviewer: Ines Robles
Review result: Has Nits

Hello

I have been selected to do a routing directorate “early” review of this draft.
​https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-foo-name/

The routing directorate will, on request from the working group chair, perform
an “early” review of a draft before it is submitted for publication to the
IESG. The early review can be performed at any time during the draft’s lifetime
as a working group document. The purpose of the early review depends on the
stage that the document has reached.

<case 1> As this document has recently been adopted by the working group, my
focus for the review is on providing a new perspective on the work, with the
intention of catching any issues early on in the document's life cycle.

<case 2> As this document is in working group last call, my focus for the
review was to determine whether the document is ready to be published. Please
consider my comments along with the other working group last call comments.

<case 3> If neither of the above describes the circumstances of the review,
then write a brief summary of the reasons for and purpose of the review here
(get this from the WG chair if you are not sure).

For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Document: draft-name-version.txt
Reviewer: Ines Robles
Review Date: 2018-09-30
Intended Status: draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-06

Summary:

I believe the draft is technically good. This document is well written and
clear to understand.

The document describes the needs in various industries to establish multi-hop
paths for characterized flows with deterministic properties.

This document is basically ready for publication, but I have some minor
questions that should be considered prior to being submitted to the IESG.

Comments:

1)- In section 1 you mention: "....a new model must be proposed to integrate
determinism in IT technology..." Do you think it is useful to mention
draft-ietf-detnet-architecture as a starting point for the model?

2)- In Section 1: "the model should not compromise the ability of a network to
keep carrying the sorts of traffic that is already carried today in conjunction
with new, more deterministic flows.", and in Section 2 "The goals of
Deterministic Networking (DetNet) are .... and to support both these new
applications, and existing packet network applications, over the same physical
network." Those sentences seems to be related with Interoperability, but
Interoperability is not explicitly mentioned in the document. Do you think that
it should be?

3)- In Section 2: "Multiple methods to schedule, shape, limit, and otherwise
control the transmission of critical packets at each hop through the network
data plane;" Do you think that it would be good to add something like: "Detnet
is working on IP Data Plane Encapsulation [ref.] and on MPLS Data Plane
Encapsulation [ref]?"

4)- In Section 2: "Robust defenses against misbehaving hosts, routers, or
bridges,both in the data and control planes...." Do you think that it would be
good to add here or in the security considerations section (maybe better) a
reference to draft-ietf-detnet-security?

Nits:

It would be nice to expand DetNet in Section 1, since it is the first time that
it is mentioned.

Thanks for this document,

Ines.