From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 1 06:21:29 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA06359 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 06:21:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 2248 invoked by uid 605); 1 Dec 2003 11:21:37 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 2241 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2003 11:21:36 -0000 Received: from faui03.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (131.188.30.103) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 1 Dec 2003 11:21:36 -0000 Received: from folly.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by faui03.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hB1BHmER014826; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:17:49 GMT Received: by folly.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 31451) id 50F942D003; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:17:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:17:45 +0100 From: Markus Friedl To: der Mouse Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: Problems with draft Message-ID: <20031201111745.GA17048@folly> References: <200311300128.UAA03199@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20031130100714.GA29376@folly> <200311301734.MAA21890@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200311301734.MAA21890@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 12:26:28PM -0500, der Mouse wrote: > I still think less ambiguity on each point would be good. This is, > after all, supposed to be a standard, so clarity is a Good Thing. Is > there some high overhead associated with changing the drafts or > something? I agree, but nothing in the drafts uses the compressed payload, so I think this change can be delayed. I think this text has been around since 1996, lots of time to remove the ambiguity :) From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 1 07:38:48 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA07829 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 07:38:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 12331 invoked by uid 605); 1 Dec 2003 12:39:00 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 12320 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2003 12:38:59 -0000 Received: from mail.lysator.liu.se (130.236.254.3) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 1 Dec 2003 12:38:59 -0000 Received: by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix, from userid 1646) id 8B23819E22; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:38:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (sellafield.lysator.liu.se [130.236.254.103]) by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E273F6B7; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:38:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hB1CclCM005419; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:38:47 +0100 (MET) Received: (from nisse@localhost) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.12.8/Submit) id hB1CcgtM005416; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:38:42 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: sellafield.lysator.liu.se: nisse set sender to nisse@lysator.liu.se using -f To: der Mouse Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: Problems with draft References: <200311300128.UAA03199@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20031130100714.GA29376@folly> <200311301734.MAA21890@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200311302243.RAA22730@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit From: nisse@lysator.liu.se (Niels =?iso-8859-1?q?M=F6ller?=) Date: 01 Dec 2003 13:38:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200311302243.RAA22730@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lysator_fetto_1.1 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on fetto.lysator.liu.se X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60-lysator_fetto_1.1 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit der Mouse writes: > Here's a patch against transport-17. In the interests of keeping the > diff small, I made no attempt to re-fill paragraphs or move page > breaks; I assume the draft was generated from a master file in some > other format, and presumably the changes need to be made to that other > format and the distributed draft file regenerated. Looks ok to me. Let's see what the other folks and the document editor thinks. (There's been several smaller proposed changes and some new text the last month, so I hope we'll see a new revision in the not too distant future). Regards, /Niels From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 1 20:33:24 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA15468 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 20:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 29829 invoked by uid 605); 2 Dec 2003 01:33:22 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 29814 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2003 01:33:21 -0000 Received: from sparkle.rodents.montreal.qc.ca (216.46.5.7) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 2 Dec 2003 01:33:21 -0000 Received: (from mouse@localhost) by Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14804; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 20:33:20 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse Message-Id: <200312020133.UAA14804@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Erik-Conspiracy: There is no Conspiracy - and if there were I wouldn't be part of it anyway. Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 20:18:36 -0500 (EST) To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: data during rekey? Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit transport-17 says that Implementations MUST NOT accept any other messages after key exchange before receiving SSH_MSG_NEWKEYS. But what about _during_ key exchange? That is, after KEXINIT but before the last message of the key exchange? Must all packets from KEXINIT through NEWKEYS be transport layer, or is it permissible to exchange higher-layer packets during that interval? (Obviously this can't be done for the first key exchange, but it makes sense when rekeying.) Also, when the draft says that an implementation mustn't "accept" messages, what should it do if any are received? Silently drop them? Or is this a protocol error on the part of the host who sent them, to be treated however the receiver handles protocol errors? I'll be happy to write the new text for the draft, once I know what it should say. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 2 01:22:24 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA21955 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 10497 invoked by uid 605); 2 Dec 2003 06:22:32 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 10490 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2003 06:22:32 -0000 Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (171.68.10.87) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 2 Dec 2003 06:22:32 -0000 Received: from cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Dec 2003 22:21:58 -0800 Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id hB26MTrX026050 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from jsaloweyw2k01 ([10.21.114.100]) by E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:27:43 -0800 From: "Joseph Salowey" To: Subject: References to SFTP and SCP Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:22:28 -0800 Message-ID: <008e01c3b89c$a931d490$0200000a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Dec 2003 06:27:43.0628 (UTC) FILETIME=[64C16CC0:01C3B89D] Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm trying to track down comments on the URI draft and I can't find current refernces to SFTP or SCP. It seems that the SFTP draft has expired, is there going to be a revision soon? Does anyone have a reference to SCP? Thanks, Joe From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 2 03:29:12 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA08084 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 03:29:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 8346 invoked by uid 605); 2 Dec 2003 08:29:22 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 8305 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2003 08:29:21 -0000 Received: from mail.lysator.liu.se (130.236.254.3) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 2 Dec 2003 08:29:21 -0000 Received: by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix, from userid 1646) id E1AD4BC5D2; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:29:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (sellafield.lysator.liu.se [130.236.254.103]) by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6575BC467; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:29:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hB28TGCM024132; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:29:16 +0100 (MET) Received: (from nisse@localhost) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.12.8/Submit) id hB28TBkw024129; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:29:11 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: sellafield.lysator.liu.se: nisse set sender to nisse@lysator.liu.se using -f To: der Mouse Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: data during rekey? References: <200312020133.UAA14804@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit From: nisse@lysator.liu.se (Niels =?iso-8859-1?q?M=F6ller?=) Date: 02 Dec 2003 09:29:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200312020133.UAA14804@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lysator_fetto_1.1 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on fetto.lysator.liu.se X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60-lysator_fetto_1.1 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit der Mouse writes: > transport-17 says that > > Implementations MUST NOT accept any other messages after key exchange > before receiving SSH_MSG_NEWKEYS. > > But what about _during_ key exchange? In the message sequence, in each direction, the only messages allowed between SSH_MSG_KEXINIT and SSH_MSG_NEWKEYS are keyexchange messages, SSH_MSG_IGNORE, SSH_MSG_DEBUG and SSH_MSG_DISCONNECT. Sending any other message type is a protocol error. > I'll be happy to write the new text for the draft, once I know what it > should say. :-) This issue was discussed some year ago, please consult the list archive. /Niels From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Wed Dec 3 13:31:21 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA27947 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:31:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 14455 invoked by uid 605); 3 Dec 2003 18:31:30 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 14447 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2003 18:31:29 -0000 Received: from domail2.emirates.net.ae (213.42.1.91) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 3 Dec 2003 18:31:29 -0000 Received: from dpmail1.emirates.net.ae ([213.42.1.68]) by domail2.emirates.net.ae (I&ES Mail Server 4.2) with ESMTP id <0HPC00D6E0SGAR@domail2.emirates.net.ae> for ietf-ssh@netbsd.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:31:28 +0400 (GST) Received: from 192.168.0.1 (a3b562.emirates.net.ae [217.164.51.54]) by dpmail1.emirates.net.ae (I&ES Mail Server 4.2) with SMTP id <0HPC00DRL0SFUH@dpmail1.emirates.net.ae> for ietf-ssh@netbsd.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:31:27 +0400 (GST) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:31:22 +0400 From: Kathy To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Message-id: <0HPC00DRM0SFUH@dpmail1.emirates.net.ae> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Believe me you wont loose anything if you checked this site http://qandil.buildreferrals.com/siterotator.cgi The good thing is that you will get a new page everytime you open this link magic ha? try it yours Kathy From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Fri Dec 5 11:06:09 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA11041 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 6711 invoked by uid 605); 5 Dec 2003 16:06:17 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Message-ID: <20031205160617.6710.qmail@mail.netbsd.org> Received: (qmail 6656 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2003 16:06:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 21cn.com) (219.232.176.137) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 5 Dec 2003 16:06:05 -0000 From: "cendd" Subject: Re: place internet call from your telephone line To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf";charset="GB2312" MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: cendd@163.com Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:06:15 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list This is a multi-part message in MIME format --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How to place internet calls from your telephone line with low rate of $0.039/minute!? 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UUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFAH//Z --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf-- From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Fri Dec 5 11:06:49 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA11062 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:06:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 7384 invoked by uid 605); 5 Dec 2003 16:07:01 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Message-ID: <20031205160701.7383.qmail@mail.netbsd.org> Received: (qmail 7370 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2003 16:06:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tom.com) (219.232.176.137) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 5 Dec 2003 16:06:56 -0000 From: "cendd" Subject: Re: place internet call from your telephone line To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf";charset="GB2312" MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: cendd@163.com Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:07:06 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list This is a multi-part message in MIME format --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How to place internet calls from your telephone line with low rate of $0.039/minute!? That's very easy! You can see details here: http://www.wotec88.com --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Yapjack connect.JPG" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Yapjack connect.JPG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAYABgAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgHBwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkSEw8UHRofHh0a HBwgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/2wBDAQkJCQwLDBgNDRgyIRwhMjIyMjIy MjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjL/wAARCABEAa4DASIA AhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQA AAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3 ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWm p6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEA AwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREAAgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSEx BhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYkNOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElK 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UUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFAH//Z --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf-- From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Fri Dec 5 23:40:37 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA09579 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 23:40:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1075 invoked by uid 605); 6 Dec 2003 04:40:45 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 1068 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2003 04:40:45 -0000 Received: from stout.hampshire.edu (192.33.12.80) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 6 Dec 2003 04:40:45 -0000 Received: from dhcpbg22.hampshire.edu (dhcpbg22.hampshire.edu [172.20.27.22]) by stout.hampshire.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.6) with ESMTP id hB64ee9n026454 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 23:40:40 -0500 Subject: Resubmission of Agent Draft? From: Paul Swartz To: Ietf-SSH Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-wTi19a1fASlzVaB4L/dH" Message-Id: <1070685468.2083.25.camel@petra> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 23:37:49 -0500 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list --=-wTi19a1fASlzVaB4L/dH Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The last agent draft expired over 6 months ago. Are there any plans to submit a new new version? -p --=20 Paul Swartz (o_ z3p at twistedmatrix dot com //\ http://www.twistedmatrix.com/users/z3p.twistd/ V_/_ AIM: Z3Penguin --=-wTi19a1fASlzVaB4L/dH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA/0V0c0Lhe9RiJonARAs0QAKCGav2SAagWCScd+16opmmAkXlyfgCdHkcM NKUyYgmxHURmML8blJGAAqE= =rCWd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-wTi19a1fASlzVaB4L/dH-- From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 8 10:17:12 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA13126 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:17:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 15356 invoked by uid 605); 8 Dec 2003 15:17:22 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 15349 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2003 15:17:21 -0000 Received: from nic.rfc.se (HELO mail.rfc.se) (195.47.254.20) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 8 Dec 2003 15:17:21 -0000 Received: from criollo.schlyter.se (criollo.schlyter.se [195.47.254.130]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.rfc.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67C61958B for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:17:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:17:19 +0100 (CET) From: Jakob Schlyter To: IETF Secure Shell WG Subject: SSHFP implementations? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list has anyone other than OpenSSH implemented, or planned, support for draft-ietf-secsh-dns-xx (SSHFP) in their clients? jakob From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 8 11:36:53 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA17439 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:36:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 29478 invoked by uid 605); 8 Dec 2003 16:36:53 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 29471 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2003 16:36:52 -0000 Received: from note?back.accton.com (67.115.116.242) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 8 Dec 2003 16:36:52 -0000 Subject: SSHv2 MIB? To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: From: tam_dao@accton.com Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:46:33 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on note_back/AcctonUS(Release 5.0.2c |February 2, 2000) at 12/08/2003 08:18:00 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Hi, I'm looking for the MIB(s) for Secure Shell (SSHv2). Would you point me to where I can get it. I'm not a part of the ietf working group, would you response to me individually. Thank you very much for your help. Tam From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 8 16:17:55 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA03541 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:17:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 26305 invoked by uid 605); 8 Dec 2003 21:17:37 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 26293 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2003 21:17:36 -0000 Received: from sparkle.rodents.montreal.qc.ca (216.46.5.7) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 8 Dec 2003 21:17:36 -0000 Received: (from mouse@localhost) by Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11253; Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:17:35 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse Message-Id: <200312082117.QAA11253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Erik-Conspiracy: There is no Conspiracy - and if there were I wouldn't be part of it anyway. Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:16:20 -0500 (EST) To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: SSHFP implementations? In-Reply-To: References: Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > has anyone other than OpenSSH implemented, or planned, support for > draft-ietf-secsh-dns-xx (SSHFP) in their clients? Once I have a DNS server that can handle the relevant RRs, I intend to add support. (My ssh implementation is not yet to the point of usability. I expect it to be so well before I have a DNS server that supports SSHFP records.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 8 20:18:12 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA18585 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:18:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 17321 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 01:18:21 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 17314 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 01:18:20 -0000 Received: from minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu (128.2.185.161) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 01:18:20 -0000 Received: from minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu id aa28370; 8 Dec 2003 20:18 EST Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:18:04 -0500 From: Jeffrey Hutzelman To: der Mouse , ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: SSHFP implementations? Message-ID: <691670000.1070932684@minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu> In-Reply-To: <200312082117.QAA11253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200312082117.QAA11253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, December 08, 2003 16:16:20 -0500 der Mouse wrote: >> has anyone other than OpenSSH implemented, or planned, support for >> draft-ietf-secsh-dns-xx (SSHFP) in their clients? > > Once I have a DNS server that can handle the relevant RRs, I intend to > add support. (My ssh implementation is not yet to the point of > usability. I expect it to be so well before I have a DNS server that > supports SSHFP records.) It would appear that you can use BIND 9 for this today, by taking advantage of the representation for unknown RRtypes defined in RFC3597. -- Jeffrey T. Hutzelman (N3NHS) Sr. Research Systems Programmer School of Computer Science - Research Computing Facility Carnegie Mellon University - Pittsburgh, PA From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 8 21:29:59 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA21297 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 26259 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 02:30:07 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 26251 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 02:30:06 -0000 Received: from sparkle.rodents.montreal.qc.ca (216.46.5.7) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 02:30:06 -0000 Received: (from mouse@localhost) by Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12721; Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:30:05 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse Message-Id: <200312090230.VAA12721@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Erik-Conspiracy: There is no Conspiracy - and if there were I wouldn't be part of it anyway. Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:28:17 -0500 (EST) To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: SSHFP implementations? In-Reply-To: <691670000.1070932684@minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu> References: <200312082117.QAA11253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <691670000.1070932684@minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu> Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> [SSHFP?] >> Once I have a DNS server that can handle the relevant RRs, [...] > It would appear that you can use BIND 9 for this today, by taking > advantage of the representation for unknown RRtypes defined in > RFC3597. Thanks for the pointer to 3597...but until a type value is assigned, even 3597 format isn't much use. dns-05 says "The RR type code for the SSHFP RR is TBA.". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 8 21:57:58 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA22235 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:57:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 9325 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 02:58:11 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 9318 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 02:58:11 -0000 Received: from minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu (128.2.185.161) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 02:58:11 -0000 Received: from minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu id aa14748; 8 Dec 2003 21:57 EST Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:57:51 -0500 From: Jeffrey Hutzelman To: der Mouse , ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: SSHFP implementations? Message-ID: <703150000.1070938671@minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu> In-Reply-To: <200312090230.VAA12721@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200312082117.QAA11253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <691670000.1070932684@minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu> <200312090230.VAA12721@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, December 08, 2003 21:28:17 -0500 der Mouse wrote: >>>> [SSHFP?] >>> Once I have a DNS server that can handle the relevant RRs, [...] >> It would appear that you can use BIND 9 for this today, by taking >> advantage of the representation for unknown RRtypes defined in >> RFC3597. > > Thanks for the pointer to 3597...but until a type value is assigned, > even 3597 format isn't much use. dns-05 says "The RR type code for the > SSHFP RR is TBA.". I went looking for an "experimental" value, and failed to find one, which is not too surprising given the limited namespace. However, what I did find is that IANA has apparently already assigned a value for SSHFP. The IANA registry at http://www.iana.org/assignments/dns-parameters says the correct value is 44. -- Jeff From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 9 11:43:30 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA02942 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:43:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 22763 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 16:43:41 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 22756 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 16:43:40 -0000 Received: from mail.lysator.liu.se (130.236.254.3) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 16:43:40 -0000 Received: by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix, from userid 1646) id 6A9D59A5FB; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:43:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (sellafield.lysator.liu.se [130.236.254.103]) by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84E12BB578; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:43:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hB9GhaCM021171; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:43:36 +0100 (MET) Received: (from nisse@localhost) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.12.8/Submit) id hB9GhW92021168; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:43:32 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: sellafield.lysator.liu.se: nisse set sender to nisse@lysator.liu.se using -f To: tam_dao@accton.com Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: SSHv2 MIB? References: Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit From: nisse@lysator.liu.se (Niels =?iso-8859-1?q?M=F6ller?=) Date: 09 Dec 2003 17:43:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lysator_fetto_1.1 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on fetto.lysator.liu.se X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60-lysator_fetto_1.1 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit tam_dao@accton.com writes: > I'm looking for the MIB(s) for Secure Shell (SSHv2). Would you point me > to where I can get it. There's no such thing, as far as I know. What would you use it for? /Niels From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 9 11:48:03 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA03201 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:48:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 25885 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 16:48:16 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 25877 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 16:48:16 -0000 Received: from mail.lysator.liu.se (130.236.254.3) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 16:48:16 -0000 Received: by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix, from userid 1646) id A5545A6284; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:46:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (sellafield.lysator.liu.se [130.236.254.103]) by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6FE9EB77; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:46:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hB9GkMCM021232; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:46:22 +0100 (MET) Received: (from nisse@localhost) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.12.8/Submit) id hB9GkJOE021229; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:46:19 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: sellafield.lysator.liu.se: nisse set sender to nisse@lysator.liu.se using -f To: Jakob Schlyter Cc: IETF Secure Shell WG Subject: Re: SSHFP implementations? References: Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit From: nisse@lysator.liu.se (Niels =?iso-8859-1?q?M=F6ller?=) Date: 09 Dec 2003 17:46:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lysator_fetto_1.1 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on fetto.lysator.liu.se X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60-lysator_fetto_1.1 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jakob Schlyter writes: > has anyone other than OpenSSH implemented, or planned, support for > draft-ietf-secsh-dns-xx (SSHFP) in their clients? I'd definitely like to support it in lsh, but it's not currently a high priority. /Niels From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 9 12:14:12 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA04005 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:14:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 11104 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 17:14:25 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 11097 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 17:14:24 -0000 Received: from note?back.accton.com (67.115.116.242) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 17:14:24 -0000 Subject: Re: SSHv2 MIB? To: nisse@lysator.liu.se (Niels =?iso-8859-1?q?M=F6ller?=), jpv@vandyke.com Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: From: tam_dao@accton.com Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:24:07 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on note_back/AcctonUS(Release 5.0.2c |February 2, 2000) at 12/09/2003 08:55:30 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Niels, What would you use it for? The Network Management software (ex: OpenView or other enterprise net= work management software) configure SSH configuration via SNMP/MIB. I'm surprise that there is no MIB, since most protocols have their MIBs. Are you part of the IETF working group? Thanks Tam = =20 nisse@lysator. = =20 liu.se (Niels To: tam_dao@accton.com = =20 M=F6ller) cc: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org = =20 Sent by: Subject: Re: SSHv2 MIB? = =20 nisse@lysator. = =20 liu.se = =20 = =20 = =20 12/09/2003 = =20 11:43 AM = =20 = =20 = =20 tam_dao@accton.com writes: > I'm looking for the MIB(s) for Secure Shell (SSHv2). Would you poi= nt me > to where I can get it. There's no such thing, as far as I know. What would you use it for? /Niels = From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 9 12:24:45 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA04231 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:24:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 18664 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 17:24:58 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 18657 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 17:24:58 -0000 Received: from mail.lysator.liu.se (130.236.254.3) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 17:24:58 -0000 Received: by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix, from userid 1646) id 327FC1B868; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 18:24:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (sellafield.lysator.liu.se [130.236.254.103]) by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852291A273; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 18:24:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hB9HOrCM021797; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 18:24:53 +0100 (MET) Received: (from nisse@localhost) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.12.8/Submit) id hB9HOnMG021794; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 18:24:49 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: sellafield.lysator.liu.se: nisse set sender to nisse@lysator.liu.se using -f To: tam_dao@accton.com Cc: jpv@vandyke.com, ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: SSHv2 MIB? References: Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit From: nisse@lysator.liu.se (Niels =?iso-8859-1?q?M=F6ller?=) Date: 09 Dec 2003 18:24:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lysator_fetto_1.1 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on fetto.lysator.liu.se X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60-lysator_fetto_1.1 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit tam_dao@accton.com writes: > The Network Management software (ex: OpenView or other enterprise network > management software) configure SSH configuration via SNMP/MIB. Which ssh implementations support that? Or is the management software talking to some separate daemon that speaks SNMP and then writes to the sshd configuration file and reads the sshd log files? > I'm surprise that there is no MIB, since most protocols have their > MIBs. Are you part of the IETF working group? I'm a member of the working group, and author of one ssh implementation. (I have to admit that I'm not particularly fond of SNMP, and other ASN.1 use within the ietf, but if there some IETF work on an ssh MIB, I'm surprised I've been able to miss it completely). Regards, /Niels From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 9 13:01:54 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA05928 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:01:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 7671 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 18:02:06 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 7664 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 18:02:06 -0000 Received: from note?back.accton.com (67.115.116.242) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 18:02:06 -0000 Subject: Re: SSHv2 MIB? To: nisse@lysator.liu.se (Niels =?iso-8859-1?q?M=F6ller?=) Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org, jpv@vandyke.com, nisse@lysator.liu.se X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: From: tam_dao@accton.com Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:11:47 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on note_back/AcctonUS(Release 5.0.2c |February 2, 2000) at 12/09/2003 09:43:12 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Niels, The management software talks to SNMP agent (daemon). The SNMP agent= in turn calls functions in sshd task to read or write to sshd configuratio= n. The MIB tells me what function calls I need to implement in the sshd ta= sk to support SNMP agent. For example, OSPF has a mib for it: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ospf-mib-update-07.txt Thanks. Tam = =20 nisse@lysator. = =20 liu.se (Niels To: tam_dao@accton.com = =20 M=F6ller) cc: jpv@vandyke.com, iet= f-ssh@netbsd.org =20 Sent by: Subject: Re: SSHv2 MIB? = =20 nisse@lysator. = =20 liu.se = =20 = =20 = =20 12/09/2003 = =20 12:24 PM = =20 = =20 = =20 tam_dao@accton.com writes: > The Network Management software (ex: OpenView or other enterprise network > management software) configure SSH configuration via SNMP/MIB. Which ssh implementations support that? Or is the management software talking to some separate daemon that speaks SNMP and then writes to the sshd configuration file and reads the sshd log files? > I'm surprise that there is no MIB, since most protocols have their > MIBs. Are you part of the IETF working group? I'm a member of the working group, and author of one ssh implementation. (I have to admit that I'm not particularly fond of SNMP, and other ASN.1 use within the ietf, but if there some IETF work on an ssh MIB, I'm surprised I've been able to miss it completely). Regards, /Niels = From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 9 13:24:14 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA06536 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:24:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 18624 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 18:24:26 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 18610 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 18:24:25 -0000 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (192.18.42.14) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 18:24:25 -0000 Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hB9IOOxA010063; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:24:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id hB9IOOIr028490; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from thunk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hB9IOOS4015316; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:24:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200312091824.hB9IOOS4015316@thunk.east.sun.com> From: Bill Sommerfeld To: tam_dao@accton.com cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: SSHv2 MIB? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 09 Dec 2003 13:11:47 EST." Reply-to: sommerfeld@east.sun.com Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 13:24:24 -0500 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Somehow I missed the original query to the WG list. I am unaware of any existing work on an SSH SNMP MIB. (I think your question is the first time it's been asked about) Existing implementations are typically managed through configuration files or the equivalent. - Bill (speaking as WG chair..) From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 9 13:53:53 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA07622 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 4618 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 18:54:05 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 4609 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 18:54:05 -0000 Received: from note?back.accton.com (67.115.116.242) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 18:54:05 -0000 Subject: Re: SSHv2 MIB? To: sommerfeld@east.sun.com Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: From: tam_dao@accton.com Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:03:48 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on note_back/AcctonUS(Release 5.0.2c |February 2, 2000) at 12/09/2003 10:35:11 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list I was under impression that there is a MIB support for every protocol. However, for ssh, are you purposely left out the MIB for security reason? I understand that configuring ssh via SNMPv1&v2 is not a secure thing to do. Is there a plan to have ssh MIB if we promise to configure ssh via secure SNMPv3? :) Thanks Tam Bill Sommerfeld cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Sent by: Subject: Re: SSHv2 MIB? sommerfeld@east .sun.com 12/09/2003 01:24 PM Please respond to sommerfeld Somehow I missed the original query to the WG list. I am unaware of any existing work on an SSH SNMP MIB. (I think your question is the first time it's been asked about) Existing implementations are typically managed through configuration files or the equivalent. - Bill (speaking as WG chair..) From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 9 13:57:08 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA07708 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 6303 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 18:57:20 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 6296 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 18:57:20 -0000 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (192.18.42.13) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 18:57:20 -0000 Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hB9IvJUP000370; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id hB9IvIIr006163; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from thunk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hB9IvIS4015541; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:57:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200312091857.hB9IvIS4015541@thunk.east.sun.com> From: Bill Sommerfeld To: tam_dao@accton.com cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: SSHv2 MIB? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:03:48 EST." Reply-to: sommerfeld@east.sun.com Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 13:57:18 -0500 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list > I was under impression that there is a MIB support for every protocol. No, there is only MIB support if someone has defined a MIB for the protocol; it does not happen automatically. - Bill From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 9 13:57:39 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA07744 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:57:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 6979 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 18:57:51 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 6972 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 18:57:51 -0000 Received: from sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com (HELO sj-iport-2.cisco.com) (171.71.176.71) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 18:57:51 -0000 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Dec 2003 10:59:26 +0000 Received: from edison.cisco.com (edison.cisco.com [171.70.144.164]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id hB9IvhAt008378; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (clonvick@localhost) by edison.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with ESMTP id KAA06509; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:53:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:51:37 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Lonvick To: Bill Sommerfeld cc: tam_dao@accton.com, ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: SSHv2 MIB? In-Reply-To: <200312091824.hB9IOOS4015316@thunk.east.sun.com> Message-ID: References: <200312091824.hB9IOOS4015316@thunk.east.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Hi, On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > Somehow I missed the original query to the WG list. > > I am unaware of any existing work on an SSH SNMP MIB. (I think your > question is the first time it's been asked about) > > Existing implementations are typically managed through configuration > files or the equivalent. > > - Bill > (speaking as WG chair..) Splitting hairs and picking nits follows- but where it leads may be interesting to some on this list. It appears that MIBs and SNMP have been used for monitoring and not for configuration or provisioning. That was the conclusion of the OAM Area (Bert Wijnen and Randy Bush) when they commissioned the Netconf WG to look into a mechanism to configure and provision network devices. SNMP will continue to be used for monitoring devices. The WG has split out the transport problem from the mechanism and is contemplating SOAP BEEP (as defined in RFC 3195) SSH (as is being defined in this WG). The Netconf WG Charter is here: http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/netconf-charter.html The use of SSH is expressed here: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-00.txt Please do not jump into the Netconf discussion and start cheering for your favourite protocol. There are advantages and disadvantages to each of the proposals in this application. A lot of the discussion may be found here: http://www.ops.ietf.org/netconf/ As I said, I hope this is of interest to some on the list. Thanks, Chris From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 9 16:28:43 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA18187 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 9262 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 21:28:53 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 9255 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 21:28:52 -0000 Received: from banister.net (HELO wintermute.sponsor.net) (209.157.166.129) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 21:28:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 20964 invoked by uid 100); 9 Dec 2003 20:48:09 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 20:48:09 -0000 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:48:09 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Huss X-X-Sender: ehuss@wintermute.sponsor.net To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: draft changes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Is there an easy way to see what changes have been made from one version of a draft to another? It's difficult to just use "diff" due to formatting and word wrapping changes. TIA, -Eric From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 9 16:53:43 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA18953 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 25550 invoked by uid 605); 9 Dec 2003 21:53:47 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 25541 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2003 21:53:46 -0000 Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (151.189.21.43) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 9 Dec 2003 21:53:46 -0000 Received: from localhost.arcor.net (dsl-213-023-020-001.arcor-ip.net [213.23.20.1]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 625A23EAF48; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 22:53:44 +0100 (CET) Received: by localhost.arcor.net (Postfix, from userid 31451) id 81D3E2D003; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 22:53:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 22:53:41 +0100 From: Markus Friedl To: Eric Huss Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: draft changes Message-ID: <20031209215341.GB22034@folly> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:48:09PM -0800, Eric Huss wrote: > Is there an easy way to see what changes have been made from one version > of a draft to another? > > It's difficult to just use "diff" due to formatting and word wrapping > changes. GNU wdiff helps. From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Wed Dec 10 14:06:41 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA12629 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 620 invoked by uid 605); 10 Dec 2003 17:03:11 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 613 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2003 17:03:09 -0000 Received: from www.isc.netbsd.org (HELO narn.netbsd.org) (204.152.185.215) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 10 Dec 2003 17:03:09 -0000 Received: from tom.com (unknown [219.232.176.78]) by narn.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 040DC11158 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:02:54 +0000 (UTC) From: "cendd" Subject: Re: place internet call from your telephone line To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf";charset="GB2312" MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: cendd@163.com Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:03:02 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: FoxMail 3.11 Release [cn] Message-Id: <20031210170256.040DC11158@narn.netbsd.org> Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list This is a multi-part message in MIME format --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How to place internet calls from your telephone line with low rate of $0.039/minute!? That's very easy! 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UUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFAH//Z --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf-- From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Wed Dec 10 14:06:42 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA10638 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 29067 invoked by uid 605); 10 Dec 2003 17:01:11 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 29055 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2003 17:01:10 -0000 Received: from www.isc.netbsd.org (HELO narn.netbsd.org) (204.152.185.215) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 10 Dec 2003 17:01:10 -0000 Received: from 21cn.com (unknown [219.232.176.78]) by narn.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B0BD11158 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:00:51 +0000 (UTC) From: "cendd" Subject: Re: place internet call from your telephone line To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf";charset="GB2312" MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: cendd@163.com Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:00:56 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Message-Id: <20031210170051.6B0BD11158@narn.netbsd.org> Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list This is a multi-part message in MIME format --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How to place internet calls from your telephone line with low rate of $0.039/minute!? That's very easy! 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UUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFAH//Z --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf-- From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Fri Dec 12 14:50:14 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA22065 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:50:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 19235 invoked by uid 605); 12 Dec 2003 19:50:08 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 19228 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2003 19:50:07 -0000 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (192.18.42.14) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 12 Dec 2003 19:50:07 -0000 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.81.36]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hBCJo70H006288; Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from braveheart (braveheart.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.86.198]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBCJo6tr702622; Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:50:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:48:33 -0800 (PST) From: Darren J Moffat To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org cc: tam_dao@accton.com Subject: Re: SSHv2 MIB? In-Reply-To: <200312091824.hB9IOOS4015316@thunk.east.sun.com> Message-ID: References: <200312091824.hB9IOOS4015316@thunk.east.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > Existing implementations are typically managed through configuration > files or the equivalent. Not only that but what is configurable and what that means is very variable between implementations. IMO having a common config interface to the SSH protocol server doesn't make any sense. In vendors wish to add that support then it would be specific to what they allow in configuration. I just can't see what you would want to configure in a standard way that would make writting a standard MIB worth while. -- Darren J Moffat From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 15 00:25:50 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA10668 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:25:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 20465 invoked by uid 605); 15 Dec 2003 05:25:48 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 20458 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2003 05:25:47 -0000 Received: from sparkle.rodents.montreal.qc.ca (216.46.5.7) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 15 Dec 2003 05:25:47 -0000 Received: (from mouse@localhost) by Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18980; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:25:46 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse Message-Id: <200312150525.AAA18980@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Erik-Conspiracy: There is no Conspiracy - and if there were I wouldn't be part of it anyway. Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:59:32 -0500 (EST) To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: data overflowing the window Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I note that data flowing over channels is flow-controlled with a window mechanism somewhat similar to TCP's (connect-18, section 5.2 et al). However, since (unlike TCP) there are no sequence numbers, I think I see a problem. connect-18 excerpt: Data transfer is done with messages of the following type. byte SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_DATA uint32 recipient channel string data The maximum amount of data allowed is the current window size. The window size is decremented by the amount of data sent. Both parties MAY ignore all extra data sent after the allowed window is empty. But I think I see a race. If a CHANNEL_DATA and a WINDOW_ADJUST cross in transit, the two ends' idea of how much window space is available can get permanently out of sync. For example: A B Suppose the connection is idle and B's receive window is 1000 bytes. --> CHANNEL_DATA, 1500 bytes --> A now thinks B's receive window is zero, with the last 500 bytes of data being possibly ignored. <-- WINDOW_ADJUST, 1000 bytes <-- B now thinks its receive window is 2000 bytes. --> CHANNEL_DATA, 1500 bytes --> B now thinks its receive window is 500 bytes. <-- WINDOW_ADJUST, 1000 bytes <-- A now thinks B's receive window is 1000 bytes. At this point, the two ends are 500 bytes out of sync, and A could (for example) send 750 bytes thinking B won't ignore any of it whereas B is actually likely to ignore the last 250 bytes of it. Without sequence numbers, I can't see any way to fix this short of making it a protocol error to send out-of-window data; if anyone is ever allowed to send beyond the end of the peer's receive window, this situation can arise. Is there some more compelling reason why connect-18 doesn't make it a protocol error to send out-of-window data? (Actually, it's also fixable if you allow window space to go negative. But that amounts to throwing away the window mechanism entirely.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 15 15:00:06 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA23227 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 9716 invoked by uid 605); 15 Dec 2003 19:59:59 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 9704 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2003 19:59:58 -0000 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (192.18.98.43) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 15 Dec 2003 19:59:58 -0000 Received: from centralmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM ([129.147.62.1]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hBFJxvAR016167; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:59:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (binky.Central.Sun.COM [129.153.128.104]) by centralmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id hBFJxvmU022988; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:59:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBFJtQYY003543; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:55:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/Submit) id hBFJtPsn003542; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:55:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:55:25 -0800 From: Nicolas Williams To: der Mouse Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: data overflowing the window Message-ID: <20031215195522.GA3534@binky.central.sun.com> References: <200312150525.AAA18980@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200312150525.AAA18980@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 11:59:32PM -0500, der Mouse wrote: > I note that data flowing over channels is flow-controlled with a window > mechanism somewhat similar to TCP's (connect-18, section 5.2 et al). > However, since (unlike TCP) there are no sequence numbers, I think I > see a problem. > > connect-18 excerpt: > > Data transfer is done with messages of the following type. > > byte SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_DATA > uint32 recipient channel > string data > > The maximum amount of data allowed is the current window size. The > window size is decremented by the amount of data sent. Both parties > MAY ignore all extra data sent after the allowed window is empty. > > But I think I see a race. If a CHANNEL_DATA and a WINDOW_ADJUST cross > in transit, the two ends' idea of how much window space is available > can get permanently out of sync. For example: > > A B > > Suppose the connection is idle and B's receive window is 1000 bytes. > > --> CHANNEL_DATA, 1500 bytes --> Why would A do this? > A now thinks B's receive window is zero, with the last 500 bytes of > data being possibly ignored. > > <-- WINDOW_ADJUST, 1000 bytes <-- > > B now thinks its receive window is 2000 bytes. Er, why? B first thought it was 1000, then zero (because A consumed 1000 bytes of the window), then 1000 (because the sink on B's side for that channel consumed the 1000 bytes that A sent, so B grew the window back to 1000) -- not 2000. And A first thought the windows was 1000 octets (though it stubbornly sent 1500 octets), then it knew it would fall to zero (because its CHANNEL_DATA consumed the window), then it learned that the window went back to 1000 octets when B sent the WINDOW_ADJUST message. > --> CHANNEL_DATA, 1500 bytes --> > > B now thinks its receive window is 500 bytes. See above -- B would now think its window is 0 and would discard the last 500 bytes that A sent. > <-- WINDOW_ADJUST, 1000 bytes <-- > > A now thinks B's receive window is 1000 bytes. As does B. What's the problem? > At this point, the two ends are 500 bytes out of sync, and A could (for > example) send 750 bytes thinking B won't ignore any of it whereas B is > actually likely to ignore the last 250 bytes of it. See above Cheers, Nico -- From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 15 15:11:02 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA24509 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:11:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 17927 invoked by uid 605); 15 Dec 2003 20:11:00 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 17919 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2003 20:10:59 -0000 Received: from sparkle.rodents.montreal.qc.ca (216.46.5.7) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 15 Dec 2003 20:10:59 -0000 Received: (from mouse@localhost) by Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23209; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:10:58 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse Message-Id: <200312152010.PAA23209@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Erik-Conspiracy: There is no Conspiracy - and if there were I wouldn't be part of it anyway. Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:07:55 -0500 (EST) To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: data overflowing the window In-Reply-To: <20031215195522.GA3534@binky.central.sun.com> References: <200312150525.AAA18980@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20031215195522.GA3534@binky.central.sun.com> Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Suppose the connection is idle and B's receive window is 1000 bytes. >> --> CHANNEL_DATA, 1500 bytes --> > Why would A do this? I don't know. Since it's not forbidden, I see no particular reason for A not to. Maybe it's easier. >> <-- WINDOW_ADJUST, 1000 bytes <-- >> B now thinks its receive window is 2000 bytes. > Er, why? B first thought it was 1000, then zero (because A consumed > 1000 bytes of the window), No, because B hasn't received that packet yet. Remember, I was postulating that the two packets cross in transit. Thus these... >> --> CHANNEL_DATA, 1500 bytes --> >> <-- WINDOW_ADJUST, 1000 bytes <-- ...are the same two packets as above, just as seen by their receivers rather than their senders. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 15 15:47:36 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA28260 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:47:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 8069 invoked by uid 605); 15 Dec 2003 20:47:33 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 8062 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2003 20:47:33 -0000 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (192.18.98.43) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 15 Dec 2003 20:47:33 -0000 Received: from eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.9.49]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hBFKlWAR011554; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:47:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id hBFKlWjM007943; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from thunk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBFKlWXt026082; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:47:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200312152047.hBFKlWXt026082@thunk.east.sun.com> From: Bill Sommerfeld To: der Mouse cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: data overflowing the window In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:59:32 EST." <200312150525.AAA18980@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Reply-to: sommerfeld@east.sun.com Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:47:32 -0500 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list this looks like a corner case. the spec says: "No data may be sent to a channel until a message is received to indicate that window space is available." and: "'initial window size' specifies how many bytes of channel data can be sent to the sender of this message without adjusting the window." > Is there some more compelling reason why > connect-18 doesn't make it a protocol error to send out-of-window > data? in addition, the spec says: Both parties MAY ignore all extra data sent after the allowed window is empty. which clearly implies that clients which wish reliable transport MUST NOT send more than allowed by the current window. - Bill From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Dec 15 16:08:25 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA29895 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:08:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 17567 invoked by uid 605); 15 Dec 2003 21:08:20 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 17558 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2003 21:08:19 -0000 Received: from mail.lysator.liu.se (130.236.254.3) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 15 Dec 2003 21:08:19 -0000 Received: by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix, from userid 1646) id 4512DC34B2; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:07:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (sellafield.lysator.liu.se [130.236.254.103]) by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95F0DC35B0; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:07:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hBFL7YCM014546; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:07:34 +0100 (MET) Received: (from nisse@localhost) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.12.8/Submit) id hBFL7UsG014543; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:07:30 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: sellafield.lysator.liu.se: nisse set sender to nisse@lysator.liu.se using -f To: der Mouse Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: data overflowing the window References: <200312150525.AAA18980@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit From: nisse@lysator.liu.se (Niels =?iso-8859-1?q?M=F6ller?=) Date: 15 Dec 2003 22:07:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200312150525.AAA18980@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: Lines: 31 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61-lysator_fetto_1.1 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on fetto.lysator.liu.se X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.61-lysator_fetto_1.1 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit der Mouse writes: > Suppose the connection is idle and B's receive window is 1000 bytes. > > --> CHANNEL_DATA, 1500 bytes --> > > A now thinks B's receive window is zero, with the last 500 bytes of > data being possibly ignored. Then A is not behaving properly, and he should be happy that B doesn't just hangup on him. The spec allows B to operate in a sloppy mode and just ignore the extra data and go on as if nothing happened, but that's not supposed to be the normal way to operate. Your own quoting of the spec says this fairly clearly: "The maximum amount of data allowed is the current window size" Period. Sending more should be considered a protocol violation. Also note the final paragraph in section 3, "Channels are flow-controlled. No data may be sent to a channel until a message is received to indicate that window space is available." (I think most implementations ignore the extra data and display a warning message, but I wouldn't be surprised if some respond with a SSH_MSG_DISCONNECT, SSH_DISCONNECT_PROTOCOL_ERROR, and some silently accept the data. That's fine. However, any implementation that *sends* more data than the current window size is broken. This is just an example of the "be conservative in what you send, and liberal in what you accept" attitude). /Niels From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Dec 16 04:25:13 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id EAA05482 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2003 04:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 15460 invoked by uid 605); 16 Dec 2003 09:25:10 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 15453 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2003 09:25:09 -0000 Received: from faui03.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (131.188.30.103) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 16 Dec 2003 09:25:09 -0000 Received: from folly.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by faui03.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hBG9LHIK016146; Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:21:18 GMT Received: by folly.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 31451) id 107082D046; Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:21:16 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:21:16 +0100 From: Markus Friedl To: der Mouse Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: data overflowing the window Message-ID: <20031216092116.GA11411@folly> References: <200312150525.AAA18980@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200312150525.AAA18980@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 11:59:32PM -0500, der Mouse wrote: > A B > > Suppose the connection is idle and B's receive window is 1000 bytes. > > --> CHANNEL_DATA, 1500 bytes --> > > A now thinks B's receive window is zero, with the last 500 bytes of > data being possibly ignored. B _must_ not send more than 1000 bytes in this case. From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Wed Dec 17 20:47:09 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA17845 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:47:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 21744 invoked by uid 605); 18 Dec 2003 01:47:00 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 21734 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2003 01:46:59 -0000 Received: from sparkle.rodents.montreal.qc.ca (216.46.5.7) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 18 Dec 2003 01:46:59 -0000 Received: (from mouse@localhost) by Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29340; Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:46:58 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse Message-Id: <200312180146.UAA29340@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Erik-Conspiracy: There is no Conspiracy - and if there were I wouldn't be part of it anyway. Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:43:24 -0500 (EST) To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: agent forwarding Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It seems that the agent draft is gone from the IETF directories. Is there any extant documentation on how to do agent forwarding, or does this mean it's now every implementation for itself and compatability take the hindmost? (The former, I would hope, but I've been unable to find any such documentation anywhere....) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Fri Dec 19 10:37:06 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA13461 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:37:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 8434 invoked by uid 605); 19 Dec 2003 15:36:40 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 8427 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2003 15:36:39 -0000 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (192.18.42.13) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 19 Dec 2003 15:36:39 -0000 Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hBJFacr5027831; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id hBJFab7H019059; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from thunk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBJFabK9014300; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:36:37 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200312191536.hBJFabK9014300@thunk.east.sun.com> From: Bill Sommerfeld To: der Mouse cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: agent forwarding In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:43:24 EST." <200312180146.UAA29340@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Reply-to: sommerfeld@east.sun.com Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:36:37 -0500 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list > It seems that the agent draft is gone from the IETF directories. Is > there any extant documentation on how to do agent forwarding, or does > this mean it's now every implementation for itself and compatability > take the hindmost? (The former, I would hope, but I've been unable to > find any such documentation anywhere....) I just got an update from the author; a revised version is expected in January. - Bill From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Fri Dec 19 11:32:37 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA15041 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:32:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5341 invoked by uid 605); 19 Dec 2003 16:32:35 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 5333 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2003 16:32:34 -0000 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (192.18.42.13) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 19 Dec 2003 16:32:34 -0000 Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hBJGW2r5004598; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id hBJGW27H003624; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from thunk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBJGW1K9014678; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:32:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200312191632.hBJGW1K9014678@thunk.east.sun.com> From: Bill Sommerfeld To: proceedings@ietf.org cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Secure Shell minutes from 58th IETF. Reply-to: sommerfeld@east.sun.com Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:32:01 -0500 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Secure Shell (secsh) WG Session summary: We met for one hour on Tuesday afternoon. Document status: One document, draft-ietf-secsh-dns-05.txt has emerged from IESG review and is now in the RFC editor queue. (a first for this group); it also got a DNS RR type code assigned by IANA. The core protocol drafts were returned from the IESG with a number of minor comments; we are in the process of resolving the technical issues and will respin once these are resolved. One other draft (draft-ietf-secsh-auth-kbdinteract-05.txt) was also returned from the IESG with comments. The Diffie-Hellman Group Exchange negotiation draft has just been passed to the IESG. Three other drafts are in WG Last Call (break, newmodes, and publickeyfile). "newmodes" is probably the most interesting as it suggests several new cryptographic modes which fix minor cryptoraphic defects in the ssh transport mode. A new draft on SSH/SCP/SFTP URI formats was recently submitted and is almost ready for review by the URI doctors. proposed issue resolutions: - transport draft needs to move 3DES, AES references to normative - group sizes: preliminary discussions suggest that it will take some time to nail down new grops; we will instead put a note in the security considerations section mentioning that group 1 is somewhat small, and additional groups will be specified in subsequent documents. - confusing/conflicting text with regards to version string line termination: proposed text sent to WG list; needs review. - 3des effective strength: in security considerations section, mention that there is a known but not practical 2^112 time 2^112 space attack which makes 3des slightly weaker than the 2^128 bit effective strength threshold; existing deployments and lack of experience with newer ciphers make demoting 3des imprudent at this time. - move AES to REQUIRED? there does not seem to be any objection to this. - asymmetric algorithms change document to say that the symmetric algorithms used SHOULD be the same in each direction but there may be environments where it makes sense to decouple them. Nicolas Williams pointed out that this also applies to language negotiation. - default login timeouts: leave them alone; they're just defaults. - internationalization of passwords. something like the proposed text from the AD was considered and rejected several years ago; leave it alone. - confusing/conflicting test with respect to "implicit server authentication" jhutz will propose replacement text soon. near-term action items: - all document authors should contact the WG chair to arrange for write access to the issue tracker. - wg chair to send summary the proposed resolution of core draft issues to the WG list for discussion/consensus call. - jhutz will provide clarifying text relating to "implicit server authentication" in the transport draft. - once resolved, document editor will re-spin core drafts - wg chair will close out WGLC on break, publickeyfile, and newmodes and request publication when appropriate. - jhutz will respin the gsskeyex draft to include additional DH groups besides oakley group 1 (as well as redo the security considerations section) - wg chair will do WGLC on gsskeyex once respun From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Fri Dec 19 13:08:41 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA18553 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:08:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 29238 invoked by uid 605); 19 Dec 2003 18:08:20 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 29207 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2003 18:08:18 -0000 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (192.18.98.43) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 19 Dec 2003 18:08:18 -0000 Received: from eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.9.49]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hBJI86AR029317; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:08:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id hBJI86jM023132; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:08:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from thunk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBJI85K9015190; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:08:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200312191808.hBJI85K9015190@thunk.east.sun.com> From: Bill Sommerfeld To: nisse@lysator.liu.se (Niels =?iso-8859-1?q?M=F6ller?=) cc: Joseph Galbraith , Jeffrey Hutzelman , Peter Gutmann , housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: (LAST CALL) Re: Implicit server authentication: Proposed clarification In-Reply-To: Your message of "24 Nov 2003 19:38:05 +0100." Reply-to: sommerfeld@east.sun.com Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:08:05 -0500 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list [Sorry for the delay in dealing with this loose end.] Seeing no further followup to this thread, I'm going to suggest a slight modification to Niels's text: He wrote: All currently defined key exchange methods use explicit server authentication. This is a little vague for my tastes; I'd say The key exchange method defined in this documents use explicit server authentication. .. and then have dh-group-exchange and gsskeyex say the same.. This makes the change the following: Before: Server authentication in the key exchange MAY be implicit. After a key exchange with implicit server authentication, the client MUST wait for response to its service request message before sending any further data. After: A key exchange method uses "explicit server authentication" if the key exchange messages include a signature or other proof of the server's authenticity. A key exchange method uses "implicit server authentication" if, in order to prove its autenticity, the server also has to prove that it knows the shared secret K, by sending a message and a corresponding MAC which the client can verify. [1] The key exchange method defined by this document uses explicit server authentication. However, key exchange methods with implicit server authentication MAY be used with this protocol. After a key exchange with implicit server authentication, the client MUST wait for response to its service request message before sending any further data. Please send comments on this proposed change to the WG list by Monday, January 4th, 2004. - Bill From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Fri Dec 19 13:29:33 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA18906 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:29:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 15809 invoked by uid 605); 19 Dec 2003 18:29:33 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 15802 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2003 18:29:32 -0000 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (192.18.42.13) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 19 Dec 2003 18:29:32 -0000 Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hBJITWr5016241 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:29:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id hBJITV7H028004 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:29:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from thunk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBJITVK9015292 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:29:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200312191829.hBJITVK9015292@thunk.east.sun.com> From: Bill Sommerfeld To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: (LAST CALL) Proposed Issue Resolution: aes128-cbc to REQUIRED Reply-to: sommerfeld@east.sun.com Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:29:31 -0500 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list An implementation survey showed that: 1) almost all implementations support AES 2) there was little or no opposition to making it mandatory. 3) while there was some concern about code bloat in requiring both 3DES and AES, the actual bloat factor was minimal (0.5% to 5%) even in constrained implementations and was dwarfed by the variation in implementation size brought on by typical space vs. time tradeoffs. So I'm proposing that we're going to require both for now. As always, local policy may cause one or both of these to be disabled in favor of another locally preferred algorithm; this is purely an implementation conformance requirement. I'll note that extraordinarily resource-constrained but dynamic implementations could exploit this by not loading code for disallowed algorithms... Proposed textual change: In draft-ietf-secsh-transport, section 5.3 (Encryption), change: aes128-cbc RECOMMENDED AES with 128-bit key to aes128-cbc REQUIRED AES with 128-bit key Please send comments on this change to the WG list by January 5th, 2004. - Bill From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Fri Dec 19 15:13:36 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA24214 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:13:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 29979 invoked by uid 605); 19 Dec 2003 20:13:24 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 29968 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2003 20:13:23 -0000 Received: from goldfinger.siliconcircus.com (HELO mail.siliconcircus.com) (62.141.33.103) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 19 Dec 2003 20:13:23 -0000 Received: by mail.siliconcircus.com (Postfix, from userid 1022) id 0B25943620; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:13:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from siliconcircus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.siliconcircus.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628004361D; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:13:10 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3FE35D35.3050706@siliconcircus.com> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:19:01 +0100 From: Jon Bright User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030813 Thunderbird/0.2a X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sommerfeld@east.sun.com Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Niels_M=F6ller?= , Joseph Galbraith , Jeffrey Hutzelman , Peter Gutmann , housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: (LAST CALL) Re: Implicit server authentication: Proposed clarification References: <200312191808.hBJI85K9015190@thunk.east.sun.com> In-Reply-To: <200312191808.hBJI85K9015190@thunk.east.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on drno.siliconcircus.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > This is a little vague for my tastes; I'd say > > The key exchange method defined in this documents use explicit server > authentication. Typo - "methods...in these documents use" or "method...in this document uses". > After: ... > authentication" if, in order to prove its autenticity, the server "authenticity" > with implicit server authentication, the client MUST wait for > response to its service request message before sending any further > data. "wait for *a* response" -- Jon Bright Silicon Circus Ltd. http://www.siliconcircus.com From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Fri Dec 19 18:01:26 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA01545 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:01:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 4920 invoked by uid 605); 19 Dec 2003 22:59:47 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 4911 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2003 22:59:46 -0000 Received: from mail.lysator.liu.se (130.236.254.3) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 19 Dec 2003 22:59:46 -0000 Received: by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix, from userid 1646) id B3D53C2B41; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:59:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (sellafield.lysator.liu.se [130.236.254.103]) by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE0610442; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:59:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hBJMxfCM013721; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:59:41 +0100 (MET) Received: (from nisse@localhost) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.12.10/8.12.8/Submit) id hBJMxXYK013718; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:59:33 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: sellafield.lysator.liu.se: nisse set sender to nisse@lysator.liu.se using -f To: sommerfeld@east.sun.com Cc: Joseph Galbraith , Jeffrey Hutzelman , Peter Gutmann , housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: (LAST CALL) Re: Implicit server authentication: Proposed clarification References: <200312191808.hBJI85K9015190@thunk.east.sun.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit From: nisse@lysator.liu.se (Niels =?iso-8859-1?q?M=F6ller?=) Date: 19 Dec 2003 23:59:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200312191808.hBJI85K9015190@thunk.east.sun.com> Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61-lysator_fetto_1.1 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on fetto.lysator.liu.se X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.61-lysator_fetto_1.1 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Sommerfeld writes: > After: > > A key exchange method uses "explicit server authentication" if the > key exchange messages include a signature or other proof of the > server's authenticity. A key exchange method uses "implicit server > authentication" if, in order to prove its autenticity, the server > also has to prove that it knows the shared secret K, by sending a > message and a corresponding MAC which the client can verify. [1] ^^^ This should be deleted. I referred to a footnote in my email, which nobody has commented so far. /Niels From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Fri Dec 19 18:15:06 2003 Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA02934 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:15:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 13354 invoked by uid 605); 19 Dec 2003 23:15:05 -0000 Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: (qmail 13302 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2003 23:15:04 -0000 Received: from minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu (128.2.185.161) by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 19 Dec 2003 23:15:04 -0000 Received: from minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu id aa10730; 19 Dec 2003 18:14 EST Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:14:22 -0500 From: Jeffrey Hutzelman To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Niels_M=F6ller?= , sommerfeld@east.sun.com cc: Joseph Galbraith , Jeffrey Hutzelman , Peter Gutmann , housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: (LAST CALL) Re: Implicit server authentication: Proposed clarification Message-ID: <284870000.1071875662@minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu> In-Reply-To: References: <200312191808.hBJI85K9015190@thunk.east.sun.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, December 19, 2003 23:59:32 +0100 Niels M=F6ller=20 wrote: > Bill Sommerfeld writes: > >> After: >> >> A key exchange method uses "explicit server authentication" if the >> key exchange messages include a signature or other proof of the >> server's authenticity. A key exchange method uses "implicit server >> authentication" if, in order to prove its autenticity, the server >> also has to prove that it knows the shared secret K, by sending a >> message and a corresponding MAC which the client can verify. [1] > ^^^ > > This should be deleted. I referred to a footnote in my email, which > nobody has commented so far. I suppose I should comment explicitly. I have no objection to the intent=20 of the proposed text. I guess I am a little concerned that the "implicit"=20 definition is still not specific enough. It's not clear from that text=20 whether "implicit" authentication means that the server sends a message and = MAC _as part of_ the key exchange, or that its identity is not known=20 unless/until it does so _after_ the key exchange. From context I know it=20 is the latter. I might suggest... ... if, after key exchange, the server's identity(*) is not proven until it = has demonstrated knowledge of the shared secret K, by sending a message and = a corresponding MAC which the client can verify. (*) identiy, authenticity, etc. Use whatever word you want here.