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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 02:10:36 -0800
From: Frank Cusack <fcusack@fcusack.com>
To: Bill Sommerfeld <sommerfeld@east.sun.com>
Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org
Subject: Re: Russ Housley: IESG comments on draft-ietf-secsh-auth-kbdinteract-05.txt
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On Fri, Oct 17, 2003 at 04:36:26PM -0400, Bill Sommerfeld wrote:
> FYI, comments from the IESG.  In summary, looks like an IANA issue, a
> few I18N issues, some matters of taste, plus a few nits.
> 
> We'll need to re-spin the document and resubmit it.

My responses are inline.

> ------- Forwarded Message
> 
> From sommerfeld-request@east.sun.com Fri Oct 17 16:32:34 2003
> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:31:21 -0400
> To: sommerfeld@east.sun.com
> From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
> Subject: IESG comments on draft-ietf-secsh-auth-kbdinteract-05.txt
> Mime-Version: 1.0
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> 
> Bill:
> 
> A revised Internet-Draft is needed to resolve the comments.
> 
> Russ
> 
> = = = = = = =
> 
> DISCUSS
> 
> 1.  This sentence caused a lot of trouble:
> 
>    The actual names of the submethods is something which the user and
>    the server needs to agree upon.
> 
> These submethods need to be specified by RFC, probably a standards-track 
> RFC, and listed in an IANA registry, otherwise there can't be any 
> standards-based interoperability of submethods.

There isn't intended to be.  This is explicitly stated in the paragraph
just following the quoted text above:

   Server interpretation of the submethods field is implementation-
   dependent.

It continues:

   One possible implementation strategy of the submethods field on the
   server is that, unless the user may use multiple different
   submethods, the server ignores this field.

So by example the text makes it clear that a client must expect that
the server may ignore this field totally.  There is no standards-based
interoperability of submethods.

But if, say, the XYZ vendor client learns in the connect phase that it's
talking to an XYZ vendor server, it might optimistically set a submethod.

What if we defined a namespace for submethods?  VENDOR-submethod?  With
IETF-* reserved for standards based submethods and anything thing else
is wide open.  Or submethod@VENDOR.

I really want to keep this as minimal as possible.  The paragraph just
before the quoted text says

   The submethods field is included so the user can give a hint of which
   actual methods he wants to use.

What if I added:  The client must not expect the server to take any
particular action based on the submethod--it's just a one-way hint.

> 2.  Explain why the language tag in the SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_INFO_REQUEST is 
> not deprecated, especially when they are deprecated in 
> SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_REQUEST.

oops, it should be deprecated.

> 3.  Section 3.4 seems problematic.  It says:
> 
>    Note that the responses are encoded in ISO-10646 UTF-8.  It is up to
>    the server how it interprets the responses and validates them.
>    However, if the client reads the responses in some other encoding
>    (e.g., ISO 8859-1), it MUST convert the responses to ISO-10646 UTF-8
>    before transmitting.
> 
> If I read the author's intentions correctly, they mean to say that a server
> might use an authentication method that was functionally similar to
> case-insensitive passwords, and would thus treat the strings
> like "aCEddd8" and "AceDdd8" (encoded in UTF-8) as equivalent.  I don't 
> think it
> should be "up to the server" though, I think the method (or submethod)
> has to determine this; otherwise the interaction seems pretty hard to
> debug.
> 
> There are also a lot of worms under the carpet of "if the client reads the
> responses in some other encoding...it MUST convert the responses".
> It is particularly problematic when you have the possibility of authentication
> mechanisms that are not exact match, as the temptation is to increase
> the set of matches rather than strongly define the conversion.  There
> are clear security concerns there.

The text is simply lifted from the userauth draft (-18, sec 3.4).  I
don't know enough about this stuff to comment further or to come up
with a reasonable description.  help!

> The reference to UTF-8 should probably be updated.

Easy enough.  Should it be referred to as STD-63 or RFC-3629?

> 4.  Building on the previous comment, when I see a document that talks about
> using UTF-8 and reading stuff from keyboards I immediately think "where's
> the stringprep profile?" I didn't see one specified here -- isn't one needed?
> If not, why not?

I'll have to do some research here, but help is appreciated.

> COMMENT
> 
> 5.  I find the whole User Interface section grating.  It has two or three 
> visual models in
> mind and ignores a plethora of other possibilities.  I'd personally rather 
> they ripped
> it out, but this is probably rank prejudice, so take it as such.

It describes the most common interfaces.  Other interfaces are free to
implement whatever they need.  The point is to describe how one *might*
display the various fields, and to make it clear that the client is *not*
to add additional text to the prompts.  It's important (IMHO) to have an
example otherwise implementations will be awkwardly different.

> 6.  2nd to last paragraph of 3.1: Under what circumstances is an 
> SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_SUCCESS sent in response to an SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_REQUEST? 
> Some guidelines are given for when the other two possibilities (including 
> FAILURE and INFO_REQUEST) are sent. I assume it's only when no 
> authentication is needed for this particular user - when just asserting the 
> username is sufficient authentication. Could the case in which this makes 
> sense be stated explicitly here?

Good point, I will clarify.

> 7.  Nit, top of page 4 (section 3.1): "It is a a comma-separated list..."
> 
> 8.  Nit, second paragraph of page 4 (section 3.1): "which the user and the 
> server needs", should be "need"
> 
> 9.  Missing IPR section
> 
> 10.  RFC2279 (norm ref) is being updated, 2279bis is in RFC-Editor 
> queue.  Probably want to reference the new version.

Last 4 are covered.  So I need some feedback on points 1 (submethods)
and 3 (UTF-8) to make headway.

thanks
/fc


From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Mon Feb  2 09:00:29 2004
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Frank Cusack <fcusack@fcusack.com> writes:

> > There are also a lot of worms under the carpet of "if the client reads the
> > responses in some other encoding...it MUST convert the responses".
> > It is particularly problematic when you have the possibility of authentication
> > mechanisms that are not exact match, as the temptation is to increase
> > the set of matches rather than strongly define the conversion.  There
> > are clear security concerns there.
> 
> The text is simply lifted from the userauth draft (-18, sec 3.4).  I
> don't know enough about this stuff to comment further or to come up
> with a reasonable description.  help!

I think it makes sense to do whatever the userauth spec does.

The use of utf-8 in the userauth spec (for usernames and passwords)
was discussed some moths ago. There seems to be two alternatives:

1. Say that all utf-8 data should be normalized on the wire. The
   details would be, or look very much like, a stringprep profile.

2. Say that it's always the receiver's responsibility to perform any
   normalization that is appropriate. At the minumum, the receiver
   *must* respect canonical unicode equivalence as defined in the
   unicode specification.

   My current thinking is that the normalization needs are genuinely
   system dependent. If the system allows unicode/utf-8 usernames and
   passwords in /etc/passwd, and the system convention is to use utf-8
   normalized in some particular way, then the receiving ssh server
   needs to normalize the data according to the same conventions.

   And if the receiver just converts the input to its favourite 8-bit
   character set, then correct conversion will often imply
   normalization. E.g. all of "\u00C5", "\u212B" and "\u0041\u030A" would
   map to "Å" (0xC5) in latin-1. 

Last time, it seemed that (2) was what the people in the wg wanted.
Most other new protocols that use utf-8 on the wire seems to choose
(1).

Does anybody here have experience with systems that use usernames and
passwords in unicode or utf-8? What normalization do such systems use
and expect?

Regards,
/Niels


From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Mon Feb  2 16:07:37 2004
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Secure Shell Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Secure Shell Authentication Agent Protocol
	Author(s)	: T. Rinne, S. Lehtinen
	Filename	: draft-ietf-secsh-agent-02.txt
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	Date		: 2004-2-2
	
This document describes the Secure Shell authentication agent protocol
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From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Mon Feb  2 18:30:27 2004
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From: Simon Tatham <anakin@pobox.com>
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<Internet-Drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-secsh-agent-02.txt

... which contains ...

> The "ssh-rsa" private key format has the following specific encoding:
> 
>   string    "ssh-rsa"
>   mpint     e
>   mpint     d
>   mpint     n
>   mpint     u
>   mpint     p
>   mpint     q

Is there a standard definition of `u', `p' and `q' that I don't know
about? I have a feeling I've seen different implementations use p
and q opposite ways round.

It might be good to make it very clear which of p and q is the
larger prime, and whether u is the inverse of q mod p or vice versa.

> These messages can be sent to either direction. However, the agent MUST
> send these messages only as responses to the client's requests.

Wording nit: is this intended to indicate that the agent must send
extension messages only in response to a client's _extension_
message? If so, it isn't clear; this only seems to say that an agent
can't suddenly volunteer an extension message when no message at all
has been sent from the client.

However, I'm generally happy with this; all my suggestions have
happened, and I think I could usefully get started on some
implementation with this draft.

Cheers,
Simon
-- 
Simon Tatham         "Selfless? I'm so selfless I
<anakin@pobox.com>    don't even know who I am."


From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Mon Feb  2 19:18:22 2004
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Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 11:17:34 +1100
From: Damien Miller <djm@mindrot.org>
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Sorry for not looking at this sooner. Some comments:

1. Why not make the SSH_AGENT_CONSTRAINT_* constraints strings? They are
not performance critical, and this will allow us to use the same
extension@vendor.domain mechanism used elsewhere in the protocol.

2. We should also have some text describing what should happen when an
agent is asked to process an unrecognised extension. I.e should
constraint extensions be "critical"? (I think so)

3. I also have concerns about how "forwarding steps" and "forwarding
path" extensions could be safely implemented beyond one hop. I don't
know of any implementation that does this, so I'd be wary of the
specification anticipating reality.

4. I don't see any value in the SSH_AGENT_RANDOM exchange. If a remote
agent doesn't have a good local randomness source, then it shouldn't be
talking ssh. Trusting random numbers from a remote source could lead to
things like DSA private key exposure.

Furthermore, the ability for a remote attacker to perform arbitrary
requests on your randomness source would increase your exposure to any
implementation vulnerabilities at your end.

5. I'd prefer to see section "4.  Agent Forwarding With Secure Shell"
moved to near the start of the document, but that is just my taste. OTOH
I don't think that it should break the vendor extension section from the
rest of the agent protocol description.

-d



From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Tue Feb  3 09:22:18 2004
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From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu>
To: Damien Miller <djm@mindrot.org>, ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-secsh-agent-02.txt
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On Tuesday, February 03, 2004 11:17:34 +1100 Damien Miller 
<djm@mindrot.org> wrote:

> 2. We should also have some text describing what should happen when an
> agent is asked to process an unrecognised extension. I.e should
> constraint extensions be "critical"? (I think so)

Probably.  If they are, then we need a wrapper like Kerberos's 
"IF-RELEVANT" (see draft-ietf-krb-wg-kerberos-clarifications-04.txt 
5.2.6.1), which is mandatory-to-implement and has the semantics that 
whatever's inside it is ignored if not supported.

Or, we could go the reverse route, making constraint extensions 
non-critical, but requiring implementation of a wrapper which makes its 
contents critical.  While the two options are semantically equivalent, in 
this case, I think the former approach is better, because of the reduced 
chance of an implementation error leading to a security problem -- an 
implementation which fails to implement IF-RELEVANT correctly is more 
likely to reject a permissible request than to accept an prohibited one.


If we accept your proposal of replacing constraint ID's with strings, we 
can easily achieve this effect simply by partitioning the constraint 
namespace -- any constraint whose name starts with "OPT:" is treated as 
non-critical.

-- Jeffrey T. Hutzelman (N3NHS) <jhutz+@cmu.edu>
   Sr. Research Systems Programmer
   School of Computer Science - Research Computing Facility
   Carnegie Mellon University - Pittsburgh, PA



From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Thu Feb  5 09:05:44 2004
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From: "Mats Gustafsson C \(LI/EAB\)" <mats.c.gustafsson@ericsson.com>
To: "'Joseph Galbraith'" <galb@vandyke.com>,
        "'ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org'" <ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org>
Subject: RE: new sftp draft gotta come soon: summary
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Hi all,

From what I can see in the IETF archives, the SFTP draft is still expired. Is anyone working on getting an SFTP draft re-submitted? Right now we've got a situation where we have a widely deployed and used protocol but no specification to refer to ... 

BR
//Mats

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Galbraith [mailto:galb@vandyke.com] 
Sent: den 5 september 2003 19:04
To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org
Subject: new sftp draft gotta come soon: summary

Well, the sftp draft has expired, so I guess I
can't let the priority of a revision keep getting
bumped down anymore :-)

So, here are what I think of as open issues:

- A bit or flag in the attribs to reflect if the
   file should be hidden.  (I was supposed to put
   this in last time, but didn't-- )

- A bit or flag in the attribs to reflect 'readonly'
   status -- this readonly status is an advisory as
   opposed enforced readonly.  (Windows is the operating
   system that does this.)

- A way to specify how to access the file during file
   open  (should match up with access modes in ACLs.)

   Currently, it is hard to know with what access a file
   should be opened-- what if the client comes back and
   does a fsetstat and tries to write an ACL?

- A way to control file sharing during file open (operating
   systems that don't support it ignore it?)

- We never reached consensus about case-sensitivity.
   (See next email for details.)

- Performance enhancments.  (See next email for details.)

- Security considerations section

- Normative vs. non-normative references

- Change of sftp rename command (see next email for details)

Are there any other issues that anyone wants fixed or flogged
to death to make sure everyone agrees?

You are implementing and sftp server on the latest and greatest
bi-endian 1024-bit super-opper-dupper computer running your very
own custom operating system and you users want to be able to x
when they transfer files and sftp doesn't make it possible.

You are implementing a filesystem redirector for you super-dupper
operating system and SFTP makes Z a very big pain for you.

This is your last chance :-)  We're gonna ship this one and do last
call.

Thanks,

Joseph

This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.

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From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Thu Feb  5 09:59:25 2004
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References: <A943FD84BD9ED41193460008C79180500A2DB2A6@ESEALNT419.al.sw.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: new sftp draft gotta come soon: summary
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 07:59:10 -0700
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Mats,

I spoke to Joseph this week and I believe he's planning to have the
revised draft out next week.

--Jeff

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mats Gustafsson C (LI/EAB)" <mats.c.gustafsson@ericsson.com>
To: "'Joseph Galbraith'" <galb@vandyke.com>; <ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 7:04 AM
Subject: RE: new sftp draft gotta come soon: summary


> Hi all,
>
> >From what I can see in the IETF archives, the SFTP draft is still expired. Is anyone working on getting an SFTP draft
re-submitted? Right now we've got a situation where we have a widely deployed and used protocol but no specification to refer to ...
>
> BR
> //Mats
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Galbraith [mailto:galb@vandyke.com]
> Sent: den 5 september 2003 19:04
> To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org
> Subject: new sftp draft gotta come soon: summary
>
> Well, the sftp draft has expired, so I guess I
> can't let the priority of a revision keep getting
> bumped down anymore :-)
>
> So, here are what I think of as open issues:
>
> - A bit or flag in the attribs to reflect if the
>    file should be hidden.  (I was supposed to put
>    this in last time, but didn't-- )
>
> - A bit or flag in the attribs to reflect 'readonly'
>    status -- this readonly status is an advisory as
>    opposed enforced readonly.  (Windows is the operating
>    system that does this.)
>
> - A way to specify how to access the file during file
>    open  (should match up with access modes in ACLs.)
>
>    Currently, it is hard to know with what access a file
>    should be opened-- what if the client comes back and
>    does a fsetstat and tries to write an ACL?
>
> - A way to control file sharing during file open (operating
>    systems that don't support it ignore it?)
>
> - We never reached consensus about case-sensitivity.
>    (See next email for details.)
>
> - Performance enhancments.  (See next email for details.)
>
> - Security considerations section
>
> - Normative vs. non-normative references
>
> - Change of sftp rename command (see next email for details)
>
> Are there any other issues that anyone wants fixed or flogged
> to death to make sure everyone agrees?
>
> You are implementing and sftp server on the latest and greatest
> bi-endian 1024-bit super-opper-dupper computer running your very
> own custom operating system and you users want to be able to x
> when they transfer files and sftp doesn't make it possible.
>
> You are implementing a filesystem redirector for you super-dupper
> operating system and SFTP makes Z a very big pain for you.
>
> This is your last chance :-)  We're gonna ship this one and do last
> call.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joseph
>
> This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this
transmission and delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.
>
> E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and
we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or
viruses or any consequences thereof.
>
>
>



From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Wed Feb 11 04:38:10 2004
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:37:58 +1300
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org
Subject: Bug? in SSH public key file format
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The "SSH Public Key File Format" draft currently says:

>The first line of a conforming key file MUST be a begin marker, which is the
>literal text:
>
>---- BEGIN SSH2 PUBLIC KEY ----

It might be a good idea to point out in the text that this is unlike any other
known (standardised) use of this type of tagging (PGP, OpenPGP, X.509, PKCS
#10, CRLs, etc etc etc) which all use 5 dashes and no space, e.g:

-----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----
MIID2zCCA0SgAwIBAgIBAzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADCBoDELMAkGA1UEBhMCRlIx

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
mQCNAi+0jQEAAAEEAK7oX0FeNncaHfa1v+V7SMUviAm8qB8orWG0zvja4ZtSrHVg

Peter.



From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Wed Feb 11 09:33:01 2004
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From: Jakob Schlyter <jakob@rfc.se>
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org
Subject: Re: Bug? in SSH public key file format
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On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:

> The "SSH Public Key File Format" draft currently says:
>
> >The first line of a conforming key file MUST be a begin marker, which is the
> >literal text:
> >
> >---- BEGIN SSH2 PUBLIC KEY ----
>
> It might be a good idea to point out in the text that this is unlike any other
> known (standardised) use of this type of tagging (PGP, OpenPGP, X.509, PKCS
> #10, CRLs, etc etc etc) which all use 5 dashes and no space, e.g:
>
> [...]

or perhaps change the format to use 5 dashes and no space?


	jakob


From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Fri Feb 13 06:39:26 2004
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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 00:39:18 +1300
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org
Subject: Re: Bug? in SSH public key file format
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Jakob Schlyter <jakob@rfc.se> writes:
>On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
>> The "SSH Public Key File Format" draft currently says:
>>
>> >The first line of a conforming key file MUST be a begin marker, which is the
>> >literal text:
>> >
>> >---- BEGIN SSH2 PUBLIC KEY ----
>>
>> It might be a good idea to point out in the text that this is unlike any
other
>> known (standardised) use of this type of tagging (PGP, OpenPGP, X.509, PKCS
>> #10, CRLs, etc etc etc) which all use 5 dashes and no space, e.g:
>>
>> [...]
>
>or perhaps change the format to use 5 dashes and no space?

And given the deployed code base what are the chances of that happening?

(Actually if that gets fixed then using a PEM-style blank line as a delimiter
rather than just running the header into the body would also be a good idea,
because at the moment one-pass processing isn't possible).

Peter.



From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Fri Feb 13 08:07:27 2004
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Subject: Re: Bug? in SSH public key file format
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Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> writes:

> >or perhaps change the format to use 5 dashes and no space?
> 
> And given the deployed code base what are the chances of that happening?

Don't know. Most implementations use their own keyformats anyway, at
least in some places. The standard text format seems to be used mainly
as a common format when moving keys between systems using different
implementations. It doesn't look like a central piece of the
infrastructure. So at least I wouldn't mind having it changed now.

> (Actually if that gets fixed then using a PEM-style blank line as a delimiter
> rather than just running the header into the body would also be a good idea,
> because at the moment one-pass processing isn't possible).

Trying to be precise, is this the format you're proposing?

-----BEGIN SSH2 PUBLIC KEY-----
Comment: "768-bit dsa"
Foo: Optional header section
Bar: terminated by a mandatory empty line

AAAAB3NzaC1kc3MAAABhAJw3J7CMyAKiX8F1Mz1dNguVQi7VZQQrLl8DeWNQaSkqmIPjsc
zSn4Cjv9BOt8FM46AZbw+aSou0jpiFPJJiQjpT5U1ArPLoMqRpopqcZqcVubRKALTzytgw
vvXyoHb84wAAABUAmm14nnnHQtwx5ZUgRrjv98iv4KcAAABgENZmq1qm4jdJJB7IAC5Ecr
vcjhlACNcPD4UQ0Bgk66/MJOxvrwf0V+ZtTfb8ZaQlKdu84vB2VxVcB8zo0ds01I6eLG2f
/nDENvwp0TkNKf1uyEWPjNQGI/ImAqukiSWjAAAAYDe6o/C8faYCpuduLPQrl8Co6z7HgC
yIaRCzBjD8bY6L5qZp4G//8PVJVhxXh3vAS6LbgDCFoa2HZ1/vxHpML+gl3FPjAOxZPs27
B2CTISEmV3KYx5NJpyKC3IBw/ckP6Q==
-----END SSH2 PUBLIC KEY-----

/Niels


From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Fri Feb 13 08:49:04 2004
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nisse@lysator.liu.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Niels_M=F6ller?=)

>It doesn't look like a central piece of the infrastructure. So at least I
>wouldn't mind having it changed now.

Oh, in that case I'd be all for it - I had the feeling there'd be grumblings
about "It's too late to change now".

>Trying to be precise, is this the format you're proposing?

Yup.  See RFC 1113 for the general specification.

Peter.



From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Fri Feb 13 08:58:43 2004
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Subject: Re: Bug? in SSH public key file format
References: <20040214024900.pq4p5lws88w0w88k@mail.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
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Peter Gutmann wrote:

> nisse@lysator.liu.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Niels_M=F6ller?=)
> 
> 
>>It doesn't look like a central piece of the infrastructure. So at least I
>>wouldn't mind having it changed now.
> 
> 
> Oh, in that case I'd be all for it - I had the feeling there'd be grumblings
> about "It's too late to change now".

It is a little late, especially since this is the only way of portably 
getting keys around the place.  If implementors are advised to handle 
reading both formats for a transitory period, I guess that would be 
enough to keep users quiet (though generating a key with new-version of 
App A and not being able to get App B to use it is still a bit of an 
interop disaster...)

-- 
Jon Bright
Silicon Circus Ltd.
http://www.siliconcircus.com


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Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> writes:

> >It doesn't look like a central piece of the infrastructure. So at least I
> >wouldn't mind having it changed now.
> 
> Oh, in that case I'd be all for it - I had the feeling there'd be grumblings
> about "It's too late to change now".

I would feel that way if this text format were part of the "core
drafts", but it's not.

The recently expired draft-ietf-secsh-publickeyfile-04.txt is the
latest specification for the public key file format, right?

> Yup.  See RFC 1113 for the general specification.

It would make some sense to have the SSH2 public key file spec refer
to RFC 1421 (the successor of RFC 1113).

Regards,
/Niels


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Subject: Re: Bug? in SSH public key file format
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From: "Niels Möller" <nisse@lysator.liu.se>
>
> Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> writes:
>
> > >It doesn't look like a central piece of the
infrastructure. So at least I
> > >wouldn't mind having it changed now.
> >
> > Oh, in that case I'd be all for it - I had the feeling
there'd be grumblings
> > about "It's too late to change now".
>
> I would feel that way if this text format were part of the
"core
> drafts", but it's not.
>
> The recently expired draft-ietf-secsh-publickeyfile-04.txt
is the
> latest specification for the public key file format,
right?

A note from 11/13/03 that was posted to ietf-ssh says that
this
draft was in Last Call.  I'm not sure what happened after
that.

--Jeff



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Secure Shell Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: SSH File Transfer Protocol
	Author(s)	: J. Galbraith, T. Ylonen, S. Lehtinen
	Filename	: draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-05.txt
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	Date		: 2004-2-12
	
The SSH File Transfer Protocol provides secure file transfer
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From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Fri Feb 20 08:46:33 2004
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From: Richard Whalen <Whalenr@process.com>
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Section 8.1 details an extended command to generate a md5 hash of a file.
Is it correct to assume that this is a hash of the file when opened in
binary mode?

As the specification recognizes the need for text and binary transfers, it
may be beneficial to have a version of the md5-hash available that operates
on text files and observes the appropriate convention for end-of-line so
that this check can also be used for text files.

It is possible that the "md5-hash-handle" variant could handle this
distinction, though it needs to be made clear that the hash is generated
based upon the method that file was opened.

----------------------
Richard Whalen
Process Software


From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Fri Feb 20 11:50:39 2004
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Subject: RE: draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-05.txt
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:50:35 +0100
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From: "Ouadah Farid" <fouadah@axway.com>
To: <ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org>
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Hello,

I suggest the draft mentions if the hash is used for the local file or =
it's wire format (wich may be different in case of data transformations =
like text files).

Anyway woluldn't it be more simple for this hash feature to be an =
extended field in the file attributes when replying a =
SSH_FXP_LSTAT/FSTAT/STAT query ?

Section 4.4 describes an intersting "max_read_size" however I  think the =
this value must only be an indication for the client  for its read =
queries. IMHO, assuming that shorter read replies are faulty is an =
unecessary lack of telerency.

Section 5.8. SSH_FILEXFER_ATTR_FLAGS_ARCHIVE_ENCRYPTED and COMPRESSED =
are very suprising. They don't provide the compression/encryption method =
used and they are "in-file" informations and are not more usefull than a =
SSH_FILEXFER_AATR_FLAG_MP3. Such information could be provided in =
protocol extentions (a kind of sftp/mime ?).

Section 6.3.1 under SSH_FXF_CREATE_TRUNCATE I think we should read "A =
new file is created" instead of "is create".


Farid


From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Fri Feb 20 19:43:02 2004
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Richard Whalen wrote:
> Section 8.1 details an extended command to generate a md5 hash of a file.
> Is it correct to assume that this is a hash of the file when opened in
> binary mode?
> 
> As the specification recognizes the need for text and binary transfers, it
> may be beneficial to have a version of the md5-hash available that operates
> on text files and observes the appropriate convention for end-of-line so
> that this check can also be used for text files.
> 
> It is possible that the "md5-hash-handle" variant could handle this
> distinction, though it needs to be made clear that the hash is generated
> based upon the method that file was opened.

Excellent point.

I'll clarify that the TEXT attribute should be honored for
the handle version.

- Joseph


From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Sat Feb 21 12:39:41 2004
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Ouadah Farid wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I suggest the draft mentions if the hash is used for
 > the local file or it's wire format (wich may be different
 > in case of data transformations like text files).

If the handle version is used, it should be the hash
over the range as it would appear if a READ command
were issued.

If the name version is used, it the hash will be
over the data on disk.

I'll clarify these things.

> Anyway woluldn't it be more simple for this hash
 > feature to be an extended field in the file attributes
 > when replying a SSH_FXP_LSTAT/FSTAT/STAT query ?

The problem is that calculating a hash is expensive,
and there is no way to request a particular extended
attribute.

The hash calculation needs to be done on-demand, which
means the client has to have a way to ask for it.

> Section 4.4 describes an intersting "max_read_size"
 > however I  think the this value must only be an
 > indication for the client  for its read queries.
 > IMHO, assuming that shorter read replies are faulty
 > is an unecessary lack of telerency.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here.

This field was introduced because, as previously
discussed on this list, the way to get maximum
performance from SFTP, is to issue multiple read
requests, without waiting for a response.

C->S: READ Id:0, Pos:0,    Size:4096
C->S: READ Id:1, Pos:4096, Size:4096
C->S: READ Id:2, Pos:8192, Size:4096
S->C: 4096 bytes of data for Id:0
C->S: READ Id:3, Pos:12288, Size:4096
S->C: 4096 bytes of data for Id:1
C->S: READ Id:4, Pos:12288, Size:4096
S->C: 4096 bytes of data for Id:2
C->S: READ Id:5, Pos:12288, Size:4096

etc.

This allows the server to keep the pipe-line
full with data coming back from the server.

However, there is in practice, one implementation
that behaves as follows (which is not disallowed
in the draft):

C->S: READ Id:0, Pos:0,    Size:4096
C->S: READ Id:1, Pos:4096, Size:4096
C->S: READ Id:2, Pos:8192, Size:4096
S->C: 1024 bytes of data for Id:0
C->S: READ Id:3, Pos:12288, Size:4096
S->C: 1024 bytes of data for Id:1
C->S: READ Id:4, Pos:12288, Size:4096
S->C: 1024 bytes of data for Id:2
C->S: READ Id:5, Pos:12288, Size:4096

Now that makes processing a little more difficult.
So I added a way to ask the server to say
I'm only going to return 1024 bytes of read
data no matter how much you ask for.

In practice, most servers will only give you
32K, regardless of how much you ask for.

> Section 5.8. SSH_FILEXFER_ATTR_FLAGS_ARCHIVE_ENCRYPTED
 > and COMPRESSED are very suprising. They don't provide the
 > compression/encryption method used and they are "in-file"
 > informations and are not more usefull than a
> SSH_FILEXFER_AATR_FLAG_MP3.  Such information could be
 > provided in protocol extentions (a kind of sftp/mime ?).

Well, there are three differences between ATTR_FLAG_MP3
and ENCRYPTED or COMPRESSED:

1. These don't actually reflect the contents of the file.
    They can be applied to any file, regardless of the
    contents.  They reflect the status of the file on
    disk, _NOT_ on the wire.

    In other words, COMPRESS means that the file MUST
    be stored on disk in a compress format.  However,
    the results of a READ operation return the actuall
    file data, not the compressed data.

    These flags are meant to enable/disable filesystem
    level, transparent, compression and/or encryption.

2. These flags don't just represent the current on-disk
    state of the file, they can be used to change that state.

3. A major operating system we all know and loves
    has these file attributes.

I will, however, look at clarifying the meaning of these
flags.

> Section 6.3.1 under SSH_FXF_CREATE_TRUNCATE I think we
 > should read "A new file is created" instead of "is create".

I'll take a look at this.

- Joseph


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------=_NextPart_000_0008_00000C4C.0000570B--




From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Wed Feb 25 12:16:29 2004
Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212])
	by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA00755
	for <secsh-archive@odin.ietf.org>; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:16:29 -0500 (EST)
Received: (qmail 641 invoked by uid 605); 25 Feb 2004 17:15:36 -0000
Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org
Received: (qmail 614 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2004 17:15:33 -0000
Received: from us-smtp2.idc.com (HELO us-smtp2.insideidc.com) (198.112.96.76)
  by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 25 Feb 2004 17:15:33 -0000
Received: from idcsmtp2.insideidc.com (idcsmtp2.insideidc.com [198.112.96.30])
	by us-smtp2.insideidc.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1PHFVpn007143;
	Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:15:31 -0500
Subject: ALERT: Message from ietf-ssh-owner was filtered; FILE FILTER= *
From: IDCSMTP2 <IDCSMTP2/IDC@idc.com>
To: "Antigen Notification List: Default" <"Antigen_Notification_List:_Default"@idc.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:03:34 -0500
X-Priority: 1 (High)
Message-ID: <OF2F8C8424.8DD68794-ON85256E45.005DB5DF@idc.com>
X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on IDCSMTP2/IDC(Release 6.0.3|September 26, 2003) at 02/25/2004
 12:03:35 PM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org
Precedence: list





Please refer to the Antigen Incident and Quarantine Area for more details.

 INCIDENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Scan Time:       02/25/2004 12:03:33 PM
 Detection:       FILE FILTER= *
 Disposition:     Note has been filtered
 Quarantined:     (Document link: Antigen Incident and Quarantine Area
document) CN=IDCSMTP2/O=IDC!!antqarea.nsf
 Version:         Antigen 7.0 GA1 (Build 688)


 MESSAGE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Message ID:      005DB528
 Sender:          ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org
 Subject:         oh
 Recipients:      lborovick@notesmta.idcresearch.com
 Routing:


 SYNOPSIS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FILE ATTACHMENT 'card.zip'
      << FILE FILTER= * >>
      File size:    25475 bytes
      Host type:    MSDOS
      Content type:              Zip
      Compression:  OFF
      Attributes:   PUBLIC READ-WRITE
      File flags:   2
      Created:      02/25/2004 12:03:32 PM
      Modified:     02/25/2004 12:03:32 PM
      Status:       Filtered
      << card.zip->card.txt.pif >>
      Scanner:      SybariEngine 6.0.633 [119.114.61993] FILE FILTER= *


__________________________________________________
IDC's Annual Technology Industry Briefing:
Directions 2004
Making IT Matter - Finding Opportunities and Defining Value
March 31, San Jose, CA and April 7, Boston, MA
More information at http://www.idc.com/directions04
__________________________________________________



From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Wed Feb 25 12:16:49 2004
Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212])
	by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA00791
	for <secsh-archive@odin.ietf.org>; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:16:49 -0500 (EST)
Received: (qmail 650 invoked by uid 605); 25 Feb 2004 17:15:36 -0000
Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org
Received: (qmail 630 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2004 17:15:33 -0000
Received: from us-smtp2.idc.com (HELO us-smtp2.insideidc.com) (198.112.96.76)
  by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 25 Feb 2004 17:15:33 -0000
Received: from idcsmtp2.insideidc.com (idcsmtp2.insideidc.com [198.112.96.30])
	by us-smtp2.insideidc.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1PHFVpo007143
	for <ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org>; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:15:32 -0500
Subject: ALERT: Message from ietf-ssh-owner was filtered; FILE FILTER= *
From: IDCSMTP2 <IDCSMTP2/IDC@idc.com>
To: "Antigen Notification List: New Notification" <"Antigen_Notification_List:_New_Notification"@idc.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:03:34 -0500
X-Priority: 1 (High)
Message-ID: <OF9E1576D0.61B0ABA4-ON85256E45.005DB5E4@idc.com>
X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on IDCSMTP2/IDC(Release 6.0.3|September 26, 2003) at 02/25/2004
 12:03:36 PM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org
Precedence: list





Please refer to the Antigen Incident and Quarantine Area for more details.

 INCIDENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Scan Time:       02/25/2004 12:03:33 PM
 Detection:       FILE FILTER= *
 Disposition:     Note has been filtered
 Quarantined:     (Document link: Antigen Incident and Quarantine Area
document) CN=IDCSMTP2/O=IDC!!antqarea.nsf
 Version:         Antigen 7.0 GA1 (Build 688)


 MESSAGE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Message ID:      005DB528
 Sender:          ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org
 Subject:         oh
 Recipients:      lborovick@notesmta.idcresearch.com
 Routing:


 SYNOPSIS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FILE ATTACHMENT 'card.zip'
      << FILE FILTER= * >>
      File size:    25475 bytes
      Host type:    MSDOS
      Content type:              Zip
      Compression:  OFF
      Attributes:   PUBLIC READ-WRITE
      File flags:   2
      Created:      02/25/2004 12:03:32 PM
      Modified:     02/25/2004 12:03:32 PM
      Status:       Filtered
      << card.zip->card.txt.pif >>
      Scanner:      SybariEngine 6.0.633 [119.114.61993] FILE FILTER= *


__________________________________________________
IDC's Annual Technology Industry Briefing:
Directions 2004
Making IT Matter - Finding Opportunities and Defining Value
March 31, San Jose, CA and April 7, Boston, MA
More information at http://www.idc.com/directions04
__________________________________________________



From ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-archive=odin.ietf.org@NetBSD.org  Fri Feb 27 18:49:39 2004
Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.isc.netbsd.org [204.152.185.212])
	by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA04274
	for <secsh-archive@odin.ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:49:38 -0500 (EST)
Received: (qmail 27242 invoked by uid 605); 27 Feb 2004 23:49:35 -0000
Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org
Received: (qmail 27235 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2004 23:49:33 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO cclab12) (168.188.129.72)
  by mail.netbsd.org with SMTP; 27 Feb 2004 23:49:33 -0000
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:49:23 +0900
To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org
Subject: Melissa
From: seamoby@cdma-2000.org.cnri.reston.va.us
Message-ID: <ixlvbylpjlipwhlvbdq@cdma-2000.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
        boundary="--------tpllfhdpembwojxmtwxr"
Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org
Precedence: list

----------tpllfhdpembwojxmtwxr
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



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----------tpllfhdpembwojxmtwxr--



