From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Apr 1 12:32:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2C1021F9138 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 12:32:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id utFem+SaGq76 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 12:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.NetBSD.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:7::25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBD221F9133 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 12:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 605) id 83A7A14A270; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:32:06 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E99C614A246 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:32:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at NetBSD.org Received: from mail.netbsd.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.NetBSD.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10025) with ESMTP id 9UzDeXmBp25o for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:32:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.lysator.liu.se (mail.lysator.liu.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:17:f0a0::3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCFA714A23B for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:32:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.lysator.liu.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49C540005; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:31:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from stalhein.lysator.liu.se (stalhein.lysator.liu.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:17:f0a0::cc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4BF240003; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:31:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from stalhein.lysator.liu.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stalhein.lysator.liu.se (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r31JVuCd008435; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:31:56 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from nisse@localhost) by stalhein.lysator.liu.se (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4/Submit) id r31JVsEH008434; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:31:54 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: stalhein.lysator.liu.se: nisse set sender to nisse@lysator.liu.se using -f From: nisse@lysator.liu.se (Niels =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) To: Mouse Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: Unimplementability [was Re: adding IUTF8 to encoded terminal modes in SSH Protocol Assigned Numbers] References: <20130329125734.GA24915@achernar.madore.org> <201303291331.JAA24710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130329173208.GA27197@achernar.madore.org> <1364614650.22851.46.camel@destiny.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <201303300413.AAA27840@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1364687764.2358.11.camel@destiny.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <201303310157.VAA10538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 21:31:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: <201303310157.VAA10538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> (mouse@rodents-montreal.org's message of "Sat, 30 Mar 2013 21:57:30 -0400 (EDT)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (usg-unix-v) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh.NetBSD.org Precedence: list Mouse writes: > The basic problem is that various strings are specified as being UTF-8, > but things in question are things that the systems in question don't > store as character strings, but rather as octet strings. Are you thinking only about usernames and passwords, or are there other strings on the wire where this is a problem? > This means > that either an ssh implementation has to have some configuration switch > telling it what the string encoding is in use or it will conform only > if the local admins stick to UTF-8 for those things. I think this is the right way, at least in theory. If you have non-ascii usernames and passwords on your system, and want to accept logins from remote systems, you can't expect any interoperability if you don't even know what character set you are using. You'd have to either tell the other end what you're using, or use some specific encoding on the wire and convert locally. SSH chooses the latter approach, but the first approach would have the same need for configurating what encoding to advertise. Not sure how big a hassle it is in practice. > (In some cases > it's conceptually possible to make the encoding setting user-specific, > but in other cases, such as usernames, it's not.) I guess in theory it's possible on a unix system to have different user's use different character encodings for their passwords. I don't see any good way to provide reliable interoperability in that case (and no, I don't think it's a good solution to say passwords are octet strings and it's the user's responsibility to figure out what the corresponding characters are on each system; maybe we disagree here). > In moussh's case, I chose to treat those things as opaque octet > strings. If the local system does not use UTF-8 for such things, > moussh will not conform to ths spec. (This is outlined in moussh's > documentation, of course.) I think it makes sense to have the default be either ascii or utf-8, and with some option to let the sysadm override the default. And if you use utf-8 for things like passwords (either by default or by configuration), for reliable operation you ought to apply appropriate unicode normalization on received passwords, possibly with another configuration option to select the type of normalization. > I don't know what implementations other than moussh do. My implementation (lsh) isn't handling this very well, but I'll aim to support at least ascii, latin-1, and utf-8 (nfc form, I think) as the local character set. Regards, /Niels -- Niels Möller. PGP-encrypted email is preferred. Keyid C0B98E26. Internet email is subject to wholesale government surveillance. From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Apr 1 16:21:21 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FA1D21E8131 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 16:21:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.988 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.988 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fNghM-GFVSNz for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 16:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.NetBSD.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:7::25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F4C21E8104 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 16:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 605) id 6127D14A2D2; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 23:21:16 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61BBC14A2D3 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 23:21:10 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at NetBSD.org Received: from mail.netbsd.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.NetBSD.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10025) with ESMTP id gmwL2EZBxdVd for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 23:21:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG [216.46.5.7]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1E214A2D1 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 23:21:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10177; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:21:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:21:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Mouse Message-Id: <201304012321.TAA10177@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Erik-Conspiracy: There is no Conspiracy - and if there were I wouldn't be part of it anyway. X-Message-Flag: Microsoft: the company who gave us the botnet zombies. X-Composition-Start-Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 18:10:06 -0400 (EDT) To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: Unimplementability [was Re: adding IUTF8 to encoded terminal modes in SSH Protocol Assigned Numbers] In-Reply-To: References: <20130329125734.GA24915@achernar.madore.org> <201303291331.JAA24710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130329173208.GA27197@achernar.madore.org> <1364614650.22851.46.camel@destiny.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <201303300413.AAA27840@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1364687764.2358.11.camel@destiny.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <201303310157.VAA10538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh.NetBSD.org Precedence: list >> The basic problem is that various strings are specified as being >> UTF-8, but things in question are things that the systems in >> question don't store as character strings, but rather as octet >> strings. > Are you thinking only about usernames and passwords, or are there > other strings on the wire where this is a problem? Usernames and passwords are the only things that came to mind immediately. On a quick look at the RFCs, I also see: - SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_BANNER text - SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_PASSWD_CHANGEREQ prompt - SSH_MSG_DISCONNECT reason - SSH_MSG_DEBUG text - SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_OPEN_FAILURE description - SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_REQUEST exit-signal error message Some of these (eg, DISCONNECT reasons) are not much of an issue. Others (eg, USERAUTH_BANNER text) are not so simple. >> This means that either an ssh implementation has to have some >> configuration switch telling it what the string encoding is in use >> or it will conform only if the local admins stick to UTF-8 for those >> things. > I think this is the right way, at least in theory. Which is? I gave two alternatives; your "this is the right way" is rather ambiguous. > If you have non-ascii usernames and passwords on your system, and > want to accept logins from remote systems, you can't expect any > interoperability if you don't even know what character set you are > using. You'd have to either tell the other end what you're using, or > use some specific encoding on the wire and convert locally. There actually is a third option, which, as theroetically undesirable as it is, has the advantage that it actually works in practice: push that up to the user. If my username - or password - is (hex) 4d f8 b5 a7 eb, then if I'm at a device which uses 8859-1, I need to type
; if I'm at a device which uses 8859-7, I need to type
; if I'm using CP850, I don't know what the last four octets would be as characters, but I don't think it would be eithe of those. Whichever way, the correct five octets get transmitted, and that's what the system needs. After all, the username stored in /etc/passwd is an octet string, not a character string (there's no encoding attached to it), and the password hash for comparison is computed over an octet string, not a character string. > SSH chooses the latter approach, but the first approach would have > the same need for configurating what encoding to advertise. > Not sure how big a hassle it is in practice. For me? None, because I use ASCII for those things, and all the HCI I/O devices I use also use ASCII. But I've used lots of terminals (and terminal emulators) with various things in the 128-255 positions, and if I had non-ASCII octets in my username and/or password, I'd have had to vary the characters typed in order to get the right octet sequences. You may not like this. _I_ may not like it. It may not be ideal. But it's how a lot of things worked, including historical Unix, and the way a nontrivial number still work: everything is octet sequences once the bits leave the keyboard until they come back to the screen; they are character sequences only in the minds of humans working with them (that is, the encoding tags necessary to turn octet sequences into character sequences are not carried with them, instead existing only in humans' minds and (usually implicitly) in I/O devices). > I guess in theory it's possible on a unix system to have different > user's use different character encodings for their passwords. I > don't see any good way to provide reliable interoperability in that > case (and no, I don't think it's a good solution to say passwords are > octet strings and it's the user's responsibility to figure out what > the corresponding characters are on each system; maybe we disagree > here). I'm not sure whether I think it's a good solution in the abstract. I _am_ sure it's the solution that's in place now in a substantial fraction of the installed base; trying to pretend otherwise is just playing head-in-the-sand and leads to things like the ssh spec we have, which faces implementors writing for systems like Unix variants - anything using getpwnam()/crypt()/etc, which perforce operate on octet strings rather than character strings - with only a few choices, none of them particularly good, as I outlined last email. >> In moussh's case, I chose to treat those things as opaque octet >> strings. [...] > I think it makes sense to have the default be either ascii or utf-8, That might be good advice to someone designing an OS. But, as an implementor, I'm faced with existing OSes, which store octet strings, not tagged with the encoding information necessary to make them character strings, and with no place to find any "this system uses 8859-1" or "this system uses ASCII" configuration, because there isn't any such configuration. Existing systems - at least some of them! - don't do that; they push the issue off to the user, as I outlined above. I could in principle have given moussh a configuration option telling it what encoding the local system uses, but that presumes that such a thing is well-defined, which may not be the case: there's nothing preventing a system from being connected to an 8859-1 terminal used by person A in French and an 8859-7 terminal used by person B in Greek at the same time. It wouldn't be ideal, in that it pushes off to humans the potential conflicts between, eg, person A wanting username XYZ and person B wanting username TUV, when XYZ in 8859-1 and TUV in 8859-7 end up with the same octet sequence. (With long names, like "mouse", this isn't very likely, but lots of login names are very short, like, two letters; e-acute a-ring isn't really that much more or less plausible a username than iota epsilon, to name two sequences that would clash in the above example. I was - and am - not sure what the best option is, so I went with the easiest to implement, easiest to change later, and IMO most in keeping with the Unix philosophy. Making moussh unusable on systems on which multiple encodings are in use, just to toe the IETF's religious "Thou Shalt Use UTF-8" line, struck me as a Bad Thing, especially since, as it stands, it's still usable by those who do like UTF-8; use UTF-8 for all those things and moussh conforms just fine. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Apr 1 18:06:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85EB11E8125 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 18:06:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ovQq5SYlblwT for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 18:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.NetBSD.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:7::25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BEA011E811B for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 18:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 605) id C811614A392; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 01:06:56 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B00814A372 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 01:06:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at NetBSD.org Received: from mail.netbsd.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.NetBSD.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10025) with ESMTP id zEoLArFjZuFd for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 01:06:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0FE014A391 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 01:06:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.15.3] (unknown [184.78.58.209]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A04E34BE6; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:06:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <515A2F31.7020100@panix.com> Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 20:06:57 -0500 From: Albert Lunde User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mouse CC: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: Unimplementability [was Re: adding IUTF8 to encoded terminal modes in SSH Protocol Assigned Numbers] References: <20130329125734.GA24915@achernar.madore.org> <201303291331.JAA24710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130329173208.GA27197@achernar.madore.org> <1364614650.22851.46.camel@destiny.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <201303300413.AAA27840@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1364687764.2358.11.camel@destiny.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <201303310157.VAA10538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201304012321.TAA10177@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> In-Reply-To: <201304012321.TAA10177@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh.NetBSD.org Precedence: list On 4/1/2013 6:21 PM, Mouse wrote: > You may not like this. _I_ may not like it. It may not be ideal. But > it's how a lot of things worked, including historical Unix, and the way > a nontrivial number still work: everything is octet sequences once the > bits leave the keyboard until they come back to the screen; The biggest alternative to password files and/or ttys would seem to be PAM, like pam_ldap or pam_kerberos LDAP has enough native support for UTF-8 that I would think checking passwords with LDAP bind could support UTF-8, but still getting everything else consistent could be tough. From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Apr 1 20:29:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD27C21E8156 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:29:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.455 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.455 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZF8jOh78t5Oo for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.NetBSD.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:7::25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C7F21E8140 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 605) id 555E814A3AC; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 03:29:45 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157B914A3AF for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 03:29:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at NetBSD.org Received: from mail.netbsd.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.NetBSD.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10025) with ESMTP id lS-EtesrsKEz for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 03:29:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx2.getgoin.net (mx2.getgoin.net [208.73.196.197]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C55114A381 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 03:29:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mars.uplync.com (mars.uplync.com [208.73.196.198]) by mx2.getgoin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B4931E7B44 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:24:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mars.uplync.com (localhost.uplync.com [127.0.0.1]) by mars.uplync.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 640128CE4D for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 23:23:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from www@localhost) by mars.uplync.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id r324NNXr087404; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 23:23:23 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from www) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 23:23:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <201304020423.r324NNXr087404@mars.uplync.com> To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Subject: Private Assignment From: Reply-To: kamara.william147@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh.NetBSD.org Precedence: list need a Personal Representative to work in your area on part time and i will pay six hundred dollars per week. Kindly send your name & location for more info. From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Apr 1 21:44:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 499F321F95EA for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:44:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oJ8ZhvzSCNYd for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.NetBSD.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:7::25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E7121F9577 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 605) id E74AB14A1F4; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 04:44:00 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C4914A1E0 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 04:43:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at NetBSD.org Received: from mail.netbsd.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.NetBSD.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10025) with ESMTP id ENGfc14mg8Fw for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 04:43:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.lysator.liu.se (mail.lysator.liu.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:17:f0a0::3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6E0A14A1D0 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 04:43:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.lysator.liu.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADC2740004; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 06:43:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from stalhein.lysator.liu.se (stalhein.lysator.liu.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:17:f0a0::cc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A138840003; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 06:43:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from stalhein.lysator.liu.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stalhein.lysator.liu.se (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r324hs0p006595; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 06:43:54 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from nisse@localhost) by stalhein.lysator.liu.se (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4/Submit) id r324hsaN006594; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 06:43:54 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: stalhein.lysator.liu.se: nisse set sender to nisse@lysator.liu.se using -f From: nisse@lysator.liu.se (Niels =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) To: Mouse Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: Unimplementability [was Re: adding IUTF8 to encoded terminal modes in SSH Protocol Assigned Numbers] References: <20130329125734.GA24915@achernar.madore.org> <201303291331.JAA24710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130329173208.GA27197@achernar.madore.org> <1364614650.22851.46.camel@destiny.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <201303300413.AAA27840@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1364687764.2358.11.camel@destiny.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <201303310157.VAA10538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201304012321.TAA10177@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 06:43:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: <201304012321.TAA10177@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> (mouse@rodents-montreal.org's message of "Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:21:07 -0400 (EDT)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (usg-unix-v) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh.NetBSD.org Precedence: list Mouse writes: > > I think this is the right way, at least in theory. > > Which is? I gave two alternatives; your "this is the right way" is > rather ambiguous. The ssh way, which requires the sysadmin to know what encoding is used. > If my username - or password - is (hex) 4d f8 b5 > a7 eb, then if I'm at a device which uses 8859-1, I need to type >
; if I'm at a device which > uses 8859-7, I need to type
> ; And if you're on a device using utf-8, you're going to have some difficulty generating the right octets. Now, if you're logging in from another unix system, you could always start an xterm in a latin1 locale (which you might want to do anyway, to handle the encoding in the channel data better), and use that for logging in, and things should work just fine. But on other devices, it might be harder to deal with. Regards, /Niels -- Niels Möller. PGP-encrypted email is preferred. Keyid C0B98E26. Internet email is subject to wholesale government surveillance. From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon Apr 1 22:15:17 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A876421F96EF for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:15:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.988 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.988 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qSbzndi7unKo for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.NetBSD.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:7::25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4021921F96D6 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 605) id 2123B14A246; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 05:15:11 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A331814A23D for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 05:15:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at NetBSD.org Received: from mail.netbsd.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.NetBSD.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10025) with ESMTP id jznVABa1sJ6N for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 05:15:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG [216.46.5.7]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A686914A17A for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 05:15:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from mouse@localhost) by Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11861; Tue, 2 Apr 2013 01:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 01:15:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Mouse Message-Id: <201304020515.BAA11861@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Erik-Conspiracy: There is no Conspiracy - and if there were I wouldn't be part of it anyway. X-Message-Flag: Microsoft: the company who gave us the botnet zombies. X-Composition-Start-Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 01:03:04 -0400 (EDT) To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: Unimplementability [was Re: adding IUTF8 to encoded terminal modes in SSH Protocol Assigned Numbers] In-Reply-To: References: <20130329125734.GA24915@achernar.madore.org> <201303291331.JAA24710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130329173208.GA27197@achernar.madore.org> <1364614650.22851.46.camel@destiny.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <201303300413.AAA27840@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1364687764.2358.11.camel@destiny.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <201303310157.VAA10538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201304012321.TAA10177@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh.NetBSD.org Precedence: list >> If my username - or password - is (hex) 4d f8 b5 a7 eb, [... 8859-1 >> device ... 8859-7 device ...] > And if you're on a device using utf-8, you're going to have some > difficulty generating the right octets. Well, sure, same as if I'm on an ASCII device, or anything else that doesn't generate them. The same, in fact, as trying to generate UTF-8 octet streams with an 8859-1 device (which is someetimes possible but often not possible; many UTF-8 octet streams involve 0x80-0x9f octets, which are not 8859-* printables and may well be difficult to generate on an input device designed for an 8859-* encoding). It is possible at all for 8859-1 and 8859-7 only because the sets of octets that encode printables are so similar between the two encodings. It quite likely would border on impossible for, say, ASCII and EBCDIC. My point was not that it's possible or impossible. My point is that the issue is pushed out far enough that it's user-visible. > Now, if you're logging in from another unix system, you could always > start an xterm in a latin1 locale ...because, of course, all Unix systems run X, or can otherwise handle arbitrary encodings. > (which you might want to do anyway, to handle the encoding in the > channel data better), and use that for logging in, and things should > work just fine. Depends. Even in X, there is the keyboard issue; I don't know what xterm does when it gets Greek keysyms but is running in an 8859-1 locale, or conversely, but I doubt it Just Works. (mterm will not Just Work; it uses XLookupString, which is - or at least is documented as being - Latin-1-specific. Fine for my personal use so far, but hardly a general-purpose right answer.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Sun Apr 7 07:28:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1300021F8DB2 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 07:28:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.746 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.746 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HOST_EQ_PE=1.445, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id koBUtKXEGUHR for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 07:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.NetBSD.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:7::25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF41D21F87D0 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 07:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 605) id 064FA14A235; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 14:28:06 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCB3D14A22F for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 14:28:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at NetBSD.org Received: from mail.netbsd.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.NetBSD.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10025) with ESMTP id 6qIZ3iPKXVeY for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 14:28:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from UAPMAIL4.uap.edu.pe (uapmail.uap.edu.pe [200.37.174.126]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 290AD14A22A for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 14:28:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from UAPMAIL4.uap.edu.pe ([fe80::9d69:70c9:e380:f27b]) by UAPMAIL4.uap.edu.pe ([fe80::9d69:70c9:e380:f27b%11]) with mapi id 14.01.0438.000; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 09:21:16 -0500 From: Admision Cajamarca Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?ATENCI=D3N?= Thread-Topic: =?iso-8859-1?Q?ATENCI=D3N?= Thread-Index: Ac4zmylj+3AQ5uIaSVq0I71XiF+d3A== Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 14:21:14 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US, es-ES Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [82.128.17.183] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh.NetBSD.org Precedence: list To: undisclosed-recipients:; Atenci=F3n Estimado usuario de correo electr=F3nico! El Administrador de e-mail est=E1 teniendo informe de errores de sobrecarga= en su cuenta de correo electr=F3nico. Esta cuenta se cerr=F3 para evitar a= ccidentes base de datos. Para aumentar el tama=F1o del buz=F3n, haga clic o= copie el enlace de abajo y llene el vac=EDo columnas: http://www.ljgaller= ies.ca/Contact/use/webform1/form1.html Neglet de esta alerta de advertencia= se traducir=E1 en el cierre de la cuenta de correo electr=F3nico en breve! Haga clic aqu=ED http://www.ljgalleries.ca/Contact/use/webform1/form1.html Gracias por cumplir! 83.137.226.165 Administrador Copyright @ sistema de correo electr=F3nico From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Tue Apr 9 14:07:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2692021F976A for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:07:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.211 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PNWiO63c-90y for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.NetBSD.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:7::25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0223521F975E for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 605) id 6A43414A316; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:07:02 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C7214A314 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:07:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at NetBSD.org Received: from mail.netbsd.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.NetBSD.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10025) with ESMTP id VuWAt4At0Si1 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:07:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from correio.saobernardosaude.com.br (mail.saobernardosaude.com.br [177.101.81.212]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380ED14A311 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:06:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by correio.saobernardosaude.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7A4B105686F5; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 17:52:05 -0300 (BRT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at saobernardosaude.com.br Received: from correio.saobernardosaude.com.br ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (correio.saobernardosaude.com.br [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cS+rrjoeQdeo; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 17:52:05 -0300 (BRT) Received: from [180.215.204.174] (unknown [180.215.204.174]) by correio.saobernardosaude.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A01DE105686C7; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 17:51:53 -0300 (BRT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: Mail message body Subject: Apply for loan @ 2%... To: Recipients From: "Apna-Loan" Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 02:21:39 +0530 Reply-To: harsh.roongta1@kimo.com Message-Id: <20130409205153.A01DE105686C7@correio.saobernardosaude.com.br> Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh.NetBSD.org Precedence: list Please Contact Us With This Email: apnapaisaloan.com12@hotmail.com Apna Paisa Loan Company , ? Are you in any financial mess or do you = need a loan to start up your own business? at 2% rate? ; Email = :apnapaisaloan.com12@hotmail.com (1) Full Names: (2) State/Country: (3)Amount needed as loan): (4)Loan duration: (5)Cell-Phone number: Mr. Harsh Roongta